St. Thomas to student: Not Planned Parenthood
Posted on May 1st, 2008 – 7:00 AMBy Josephine Marcotty
University of St. Thomas St. Paul campus
Tara Borton, a first year law student at the University of St. Thomas School of Law, thought Planned Parenthood was a fine place to fulfill the public service requirement for graduation. She was set to start there on May 12.
But then she ran smack into abortion politics and Catholic doctrine. She’s also ignited a bit of firestorm at St. Thomas.
St. Thomas is a Catholic university, and the church has an issue with Planned Parenthood because it is a leader on abortion rights. So the student committee that oversees public service choices grudgingly gave her permission work with Planned Parenthood as long as she stayed clear of anything related to either birth control or abortion.
But even before she heard about that decision Law School Dean Thomas Mengler stepped in and nixed the whole thing. He’d received a flood of protests from others at the school objecting to the committee’s decision. Any volunteering for Planned Parenthood is unacceptable, he said in a letter to the committee and the school.
“Volunteer service at Planned Parenthood, whatever the nature of that service, advances the mission of Planned Parenthood, an organization whose mission is fundamentally at odds with a core value of the Catholic Church,” he said.
Borton has calmed down some, she said, “but when I read that email I was really upset.” She understands his point — that allowing her to volunteer for Planned Parenthood makes it look like the school is endorsing its mission. “But I think that’s totally off base,” she said. “I think that much it’s more of an academic detriment to the school than it is protective of Catholic identity.”
Besides, Borton is not Catholic. She is what her mother calls “a recovering Catholic,” she said. It’s not right for the school to impose Catholic doctrine on non-Catholic students, she said.
She chose St. Thomas law school in part because she believed in its social justice mission, which is closely tied to its Catholic identity, she said. “But my idea of of social justice is working at Planned Parenthood.”
Borton said she’s worked as a volunteer for Planned Parenthood before. “I like the work they do with (sexually transmitted infections) and contraception. They do male services, too,” she said.
Mengler said there is precedent for his decision. Nine years ago then school president Father Dennis Dease denied an internship to an undergraduate student who wished to volunteer at Planned Parenthood to help victims of acquaintance rape. But Father Dease said no for the same reasons as Dean Mengler. “Planned Parenthood is a leader in the abortions rights movement,” and “opposition to abortion is one of the core values of the Catholic faith,” Mengler said in his letter.
Mengler predicted that not everyone at the law school would agree, and he was right. A group of 80 students signed a letter objecting to his decision, saying among other things:
“The future of our school’s reputation in the legal community, as well as in the community at large, depends on the law school continuing to attract not only those Catholic students who agree with the Church’s teachings on the issues of abortion and contraception, but also those who respectfully disagree.”
Moreover, the students said, the dean does not have the right to overturn the decision of the student committee that approved Borton’s volunteer plan.
Mengler also said that of course anyone can volunteer anywhere on their own time. Bortons said she’s scheduled to met with Mengler today, and plans to ask him to find a compromise.
Planned Parenthood said in a news release:
“St. Thomas appears to be out of step with many of it’s own students and the majority of Minnesotans. This decision illustrates a disturbing and dangerous lack of tolerance on the part of leadership at the school.”
And it said that at least a dozen people from St. Thomas have volunteered at Planned Parenthood in last five years, but none from the law school.
It’s a controversy that raises a lot of interesting questions about the freedom students have to choose their own way, and the conflict inherent in being a world class law school and the edicts of the church. Oh, and contraception and sexually transmitted diseaases. Let’s not forget those.
Here’s a story about the controversy posted on the City Pages web site.
Here’s Mengler’s letter explaining his decision.
Here’s the letter from students who objected to it.
Here’s the statement from Planned Parenthood.
What do you think? Should Dean Mengler back down? Is he right to enforce the views of the church on the students? Is it likely to scare away prospective students?
512 Responses to "St. Thomas to student: Not Planned Parenthood"
I think Dean Mengler did the right thing. He is a spokesman for the Catholic church in his position. Since the churches position is against abortion, the dean really has no other choice. Students do not need to go to a Catholic school if they have differing views, but if they choose to go, then they should accept the policies of that school and also of the church. It’s the same as going to Northwestern or Bethel. If you don’t want to attend a school with their values, pick someplace else. Don’t try and force the school to do something against their belief system and then cry on the news about how unfair it is.
Under the excuse of fulfilling Catholic doctrine, St. Thomas is once again turning its back on the important work Planned Parenthood does for the community, such as counseling rape victims. Another example of doing politics instead of doing good. But hey, what else is new?!
Nothing is stopping Borton from volunteering at Planned Parenthood on her own time, she just can’t get course credit for it. St. Thomas is well within its rights to define its course requirements in a manner consistent with the values and beliefs of the church. There’s really nothing to discuss here.
Thou Shalt Not Kill
I’m not a bleeding heart anti-abortion Catholic but I understand the doctrine. There is an old papal encyclical, still valid, that the Catholic Church believes artificial birthcontrol and abortion to be contrary to God’s law. When the pope visited last week, media stated 1 in 4.5 Americans and 1 in 6 in the world are Catholics - so there is broad support for a religion that has some strict non-negotiable rules. If you don’t want to follow a religion’s rules, don’t go to their school …. seems reasonable to me.
I agree with Philip. The Catholic church is very clear in it’s teaching. Planned Parenthood - and it’s teaching- is in direct conflict with the church’s. Perhaps PP can begin to teach natural family planning if they are looking to be more in-step with Catholic thought. There are many secular law schools that this person can attend that I’m sure would be a better fit.
I didn’t see anything that Dean Mengler or St Thomas is stopping Ms Borton from volunteering at Planned Parenthood on her own time - they are saying that it cannnot be used to fulfill her St Thomas Public Service requirement. A Catholic university that should be allowed to follow their values and beliefs. Why is this news?
Thou Shalt Not Kill is pretty self explanatory unless your ignorant.
As a college student myself, attending a Catholic institution was a hard decision for me to make. I’m not Catholic, and I did not want the school’s affiliation with Catholicism to be pressed upon me. I am with the students at St. Thomas when I say, it is not a fair thing for the school to press its religious beliefs on those who attend – Tara Borton should go ahead and do her volunteer hours with Planned Parenthood, and if the college does not accept her work as acceptable for the requirement; she is a law student, she knows her rights, she should file suit.
I agree with St Thomas and applaud their decision. When it comes right down to it, when you choose to go to a school that is primarily a catholic school in its beliefs and standards you have to live by those standards. If you don’t like it, transfer. Anti-abortion is not a catholic stance but a bible stance. I am not, nor have I ever been Catholic, but as a Bible believing Christian I know what the Bible says about killing innocent people. Planned Parenthood can release any statement they want about what they think Minnesotans stand for but the truth is there is no greater endorser of abortion than PP and as a life-long Minnesotan I oppose Planned Parenthoods policies and would never endorse anything they do because of their stance on abortion. Therefore I do not attend anything endorsed by them, give money to any organization who supports them and if they had a school I would not attend or allow my children to attend.
“It’s not right for the school to impose Catholic doctrine on non-Catholic students, she said.”
typical entitlement mentality of the poor oppressed LAW SCHOOL student- NO ONE is “imposing” doctrine on her, she is free to believe and practice as she sees fit- this purely about credit for the internship. WAY TO GO St. Thomas!
The Dean is correct in his judgement, regardless of all the outside liberal interpretations. As a Catholic school, the school follows the guidelines of the Catholic faith. This is a religious issue and not one of secularism. The Catholic church also believes in natural family planning, and doesn’t approve of contraception. The students choice is to attend St. Thomas, and is not mandated. If they don’t agree with the Catholic churches teachings and doctrine, that is their decision. It is also their decision if they want to leave St. Thomas and attend the public University of Minnesota. As a private Catholic university, St. Thomas is entitled to practice their religious principles and beliefs without having to submit to those who have a different belief. And it does not have to be “in step” with Minnesotans! Planned Parenthood is “out of step” with Catholic doctrine and does not value ALL human life!
My gosh, St. Thomas can’t seem to go three weeks without some controversial, negative publicity in the press. It appears that the leadership at the school needs to take a re-fresher course in public relations. They continue to make strange decisions that will continue to stir up negative reactions.
Follow my religion or die.
This is not new.
Tom
Sara . . she should sue the school? Supreme court alread gives religious schools the protection of our constitution. This student holding media events and press conferences appears much more interested in advancing an agenda than doing her service.
That kind of media feed is what has made our politics and country much more contentious in recent years.
Give me a break!!! Her mother says it’s not right to impose catholic doctrine on non-catholic students?? Then don’t go to a catholic college!!!! If she doesn’t agree, then she needs to go to a different university. St. Thomas is a CATHOLIC University… founded on CATHOLIC principles. There are plenty of other colleges out there that won’t have a problem with it, so go there. Here we go again… everyone should be ‘free’ to choose what they want, except if you believe in anything religious. Tara knew this was a catholic university before she attended. This is not an issue about the freedom students have to choose their own way… this is an issue of someone once again trying to change something they don’t agree with. If she doesn’t agree with their catholic principles, she shouldn’t have attended a CATHOLIC college in the first place!
STFU Nancy
So this liberal student goes to a private Catholic college even though she doesn’t believe in Catholic doctrines? Then she bitches about it? That would be like me going to an ELCA college and trying to force my pro-life views on them.
I agree with other posters above. St Thomas is not prohibiting students from volunteering with any organization that they wish, they are just setting guidelines about which types of volunteer organizations count toward their course requirements. Students should realize when they enter any private academic institution that those schools have fundamental religous or moral beliefs. If you cannot accept the limitations that go along with that then don’t apply- go to a public law school. If Ms. Barton is so interested in working with Planned Parenthood then she should be willing to do so without incentive from her school.
Jes: couldn’t have said it better myself. I do not agree with some of St. Thomas’ recent decisions (not allow recent speakers on the campus) but this decision was a no-brainer. Abortion and PP are not a grey area in terms of Catholic doctrine. Don’t like it? Go to Hamline.
St. Thomas is not a public school. If Ms. Borton does not want to get a Catholic eductation that is her choice and she should not have chosen UST as her school.
Dave- What percent of St. Thomas students do you think “believe in the Catholic doctrines?” Maybe half? Maybe.
Dianne, give me a break. Planned Parenthood undercuts every ounce of whatever “public good” the organization does when it steers women to ending the lives of their children.
Peter has it right. This student can volunteer wherever she wants, including Planned Parenthood. It’s right for the school to deny her academic credit, however, because the volunteer work advances an organization whose mission is counter to Catholic (human) values.
Moreover, this student could have attended another school. She chose St. Thomas, therefore it’s not unreasonable for the school to expect her to follow its code…. which is a key part of it’s learning process.
There is no god, people. Quit being so gullible. There’s a stronger likelihood that there are aliens then there is a god. And yet you don’t see people so obsessed with praying or worshipping aliens, do you? Of course not because that would be ridiculous. As is this misplaced obsession with an other-worldly deity. Here’s a quarter go by yourselves a clue.
Matt- It doesn’t matter what percentage of UST students believe in the doctrines. Tara is a representative of UST and UST’s mission is in line with Catholic doctrine.
She’s kidding right? A Catholic University doesn’t have a RIGHT to put there own rules in place? She’s listening to to many pundents that say sue if you don’t get your way. Go to a college that doesn’t have rules of right and wrong……..that’s your RIGHT. I’m proud of St Thomas for standing up for moral behavior.
St. Thomas did the right thing in this case. It has an obligation as a Catholic university to not endorse or support anything running contrary to fundamental Catholic beliefs regarding the dignity of life. Plan Parenthood’s statement seems to be confusing “tolerance” with “indifference”. As a “lapsed Catholic,” Borton knew the educational philosophy and religious framework of the private university she chose to attend. If she wanted her volunteer work at Plan Parenthood to be sanctioned by her university, she could have gone to a secular institution.
St. Thomas certainly doesn’t discriminate against taking the money. Maybe St. Thomas should make sure the students fall in line before they cash the check.
Matt, if you don’t believe in what the Catholic church teaches, you should not go to a Catholic college. Or be like me, I attend the UofM and don’t agree with much of the liberal crap they preach, but I am not suing to try to change it.
Folks who keep saying this is about receiving credit for an internship, maybe you need to research this more. This is about fulfilling a community service requirement. There is no credit. There is nothing that shows up on a transcript. There is no supervisor. This is not about credit at all. It is simply about fulfilling a requirement that someone go out into the community and follow their own path to engage in community work. That’s it.
All you St. Thomas backers keep saying, if she didn’t want to abide by the Catholic doctrines, don’t go to St. Thomas.
At the same time, one could easily say, if St. Thomas doesn’t want their students to question those catholic doctrines, then don’t accept students into your school who aren’t practicing Catholics.
Dave21, the U of M doesn’t tell you you can’t go out and do what you want to do. You’re arguing this from the opposite side of the fence.
Let me see. It’s certainly no secret that St. Thomas is a Catholic university. That’s pretty clear in its mission statement too. And this student seems to think that her personal preferences should override the university’s mission? This entitlement mentality amazes me.
Uhhh . . . do we celebrate conception dates? I didn’t think so. We celebrate BIRTH dates, that’s when life begins, period. So all of you whacked out, fascist “Pro-Lifers” need to keep your nazi viewpoints to yourself.
“Thou shalt not kill.” Unless you are a Crusader, taking vengeance upon your enemies, or David killing Goliath, right? How many of you anti-abortionists approve of the death penalty?
This is what makes me ashamed to be a St. Thomas grad. The fact that, nine years ago, Dease denied an internship to an undergraduate student who wanted to volunteer at Planned Parenthood to help victims of acquaintance rape, says alot about the supposed moral compass of the leadership there. They claim to have a social justice mission, but somehow if a person is raped they are exempt from compassion. You don’t have to be a catholic to attend that university. People do choose it for its small class sizes and solid curriculum. If the leadership is so into catholic doctrine, how does a business school fit in? They want some of the trappings of modern society - the ones that bring in cash. But catholic doctrine kicks in when it comes to SEX. By the way, Planned Parenthood offers a multitude of services. They do regular gynecological exams for women, including pap smears, which are critical in detecting cervical cancer. How is that bad?
I agree with the sentiment that, because St Thomas is a private school, they are entirely within their rights to make this decision. However, I still think there are hints of politics here.
Our pope has spoken out against the war in Iraq. However, do any of you believe that a student who wanted to volunteer for an organization that had part of it’s mission devoted to promoting our current war would be told they couldn’t get class credit for it? I would seriously doubt the school would do so, although it would be the correct and consistent thing to do.
Right on Matt!! Seems pro-death penalty and Pro-lifers are one and the same, yet suprisingly contradictory. Just a bunch of Hitler-wannabes.
There is something to discuss. If St. Thomas promises to embrace different cultures, views, etc, which also includes different religion, then volunteering at Planned Parenthood shouldn’t be a problem. I graduated from there and knew a lot of students who went there to P.P. to get service anonymously(both males and females). This is the truth! Even though P.P. is at odds with “St. Thomas’s core values” the Dean needs to think about it’s student body. Reality Check! College students will be college students and stuff happens. P.P. and St. Thomas may have different views, but one common view they share is that both care about the safety of students in crisis. The Dean needs to realize that one outlet is P.P.
Matt Matt Matt. Why should non-Catholics be banned? I am non-Catholic but support almost all of the chruches teachings.
You don’t have to be a practicing Catholic, but you shouldn’t use the school as vessal to particapate in anti-Catholic activities.
And knowing how intolerant and narrow minded many Twin Cities residents are, I imaging this thread will degenerate in to anti-Catholic hatred.
First, St Thomas is a Roman Catholic University and is right to hold to the teachings of the church, secondly it has a Law School that is positioned under the canopy of the University. As such the Law School needs to conform to the position of the University which is the position of the church. Dean Mengler did the right thing. Any student, Roman Catholic or otherwise, has to recognize the relationships within the University - do they have to agree, no, but they chose to attend, and were free to look elsewhere, knowing that St Thomas University is Roman Catholic. In a world that increasingly tells us all evil/sin is relative and acceptable and we just have to “agree to disagree,” it is refreshing to see a church school hold true to the teachings of the church - we are in the world but we are not of the world.
Your personal beliefs don’t come into this, so stop bringing them up. Pro-life, pro-choice, anti-religious, liberal, conservative, all of you just stop trying to incite an argument. It doesn’t matter whether YOU think abortion is bad or Christians are stupid. The only thing that matters in this argument is whether a private educational institution has the right to hold their students to the rules. Which they do.
“…it is not a fair thing for the school to press its religious beliefs on those who attend.”
Yes it is. She could have chosen not to go there. This isn’t the U of M. It’s a private religious college funded by private money, and people attending private religious schools should stop acting surprised when they find out that there are rules against otherwise legal practices.
Matt-
You’re absolutely right, but then I would think you would run into MANY discrimination lawsuits by non Catholics wanting to get into UST. While they let a variety of people in, they are still a Catholic institution and students know that when they attend.
Ridiculous. St. Thomas has every right to say no to working for Planned Parenthood. PP makes $$millions$$ killing babies. They don’t need any volunteers anyway with this kind of ‘profit’. Dirty money, I’d say. This young lady obviously doesn’t get it. I pray she will learn.
I think the Catholic’s should start using Plan Parenthood more. Because abstinence until marriage isnt working for their worshippers. Just ask the Catholic Preist’s that prey on young children, they cant even keep it in their pants.
Surprise, surprise…another shot at UST by the Strib. I guess we’re due, it’s been two weeks since the last one… Someone call Katherine Kersten!
It’s a catholic University, one knows that LONG before one enrolls. I’m a non-catholic UST grad and endured some things that I may not have agreed 100% with, but ultimately it was my choice to stay or go. I stayed and I have no regrets. If this individual doesn’t like the stance UST is taking, either suck it up or leave, thousands make that decision every year, why does her struggle make front page news?
…And frankly, if she didn’t see this opposition from UST coming when she chose PP for her internship, she has no business being in law school.
And just what is going to make the Law School education a “Catholic” education? This certainly applies with the undergraduate degrees where the college can easily add certain required theology clases, but that does not match up well with a Juris Doctor degree. What about that degree is a “catholic” degree? Absolutely nothing. Also, do know that there are only 4 law schools in the entire state. There are a limited number of slots for students to fill. Students are not going to the St. Thomas Law School because it is a Catholic school. They are going there because it is the easiest law school to get into and because they want a law degree, not a “catholic” education.
As a Catholic affilitated school, it has an obligation to align with the Church as much as possible. Prospective students should factor that in when deciding if that is where they want to attend or not. Also noting that it sounds like the school isn’t barring her from volunteering at all with PP, if that is her desire, but simply that it will not count towards the public service requirement. If the school as a whole does not like that, then perhaps they should look to remove their affiliation.
Once again representatives of the Catholic church do not miss an opportunity to disappoint it’s followers. They are out of touch with reality.
Dave21. Christianity is a cool ethos, don’t get me wrong. But the people who have run it for the last 1900 years (you will notice I said 1900 years - so from about 100 C.E. onwards) have been a pretty dispicable group. Look up John XXII, a medieval pope, and you’ll have a great example. Look at the Christian ethos of slaughtering non-believers (Jewish pograms ran from Spain to Byzantium, western Europeans sacked Constantinople in 1204 because it was Greek Orthodox). The Greek Orthodox church persecuted people who they thought were “idolaters” - in other words, people who used crucifixes and other religious devices. Not to mention the slaughter of pagans and Muslims in the crusades. Or how about the slaughter of the Cathars simply because they didn’t acknowledge the Pope’s authority? Or how about the 30 Years War in Germany, where over 5 million people were killed during the Restoration? It’s no wonder Islam, which is historically MUCH more tolerant than Christianity, swept up more than half of late antiquity Christendom. Get off your high horse about Christianity.
Oooh. I live for people who spew biblical phrase from a book they’ve likely never even read…
How about “Judge not, lest you be judged”?
If St. Thomas accepts tax dollars, they have effectively “sold” their rights to their bottom-line morality.
Only a liberal Democrat sees no difference between executing 12 mass murderers each year and killing 1,500,000 babies who are inconvenient.
Oh, and by the way, I’m NOT a liberal Democrat. I just think for myself.
Well said Dave.
Deb, quit wasting your time praying. They aren’t being heard, there’s no one listening!!! Get it! THERE IS NO GOD. And if you’d all start figuring that out, then so much of this world would be a better place. Think of the war in Iraq, wouldn’t be happening if not for religion. Think about WWII, wouldn’t have happened if not for religion. The Crusades??? Yep, religion, too. Because so many of you are so gullible and easily manipulated, you perpetuate this on-going violence, simply because someone disagrees with you. Get over it and start living in the 21st century - The godless era!!!
Deb Edwards and others, how many unwanted, unplanned, and/or product of rape/incest babies have you adopted lately? If you’re going to crusade against PP, then it’s time to step up and do all you personally can to prevent unwanted/unplanned pregnancies, and take responsibility for the babies that parents have that can’t or won’t care for.
Matt, it’s unfortunate you hate Christians like me so much. But you know what, if you are ever in need, I will assist you. The Salvation Army will. Catholic Charties will. Christian hospitals will let you in, no questions asked. I have an aunt and uncle who take in homeless people and do what they can to get them on their feet. I could go and on and on, but someone as ignorant as you will never change your mind.
Each year Planned Parnthood provides millions of cancer screenings and tests and treatment for STDs, in addition to birth control to prevent pregnancies that if they occurred, may be terminated through abortion. These services are 97% of what they do. Their primary client base is low income people. Those that howl about PP’s abortion services, which comprise 3% of the services they provide, clearly cannot see the forest for that one little tree. The law student seems to get it though. Kudos to her. I hope that if she finds out UST won’t accept it as her community service, she donates her time anyway.
She can go help kill babies on her own time. I don’t know why she is trying to make such a big deal about. What a coincidence that she is a law student. She will make a great ACLU lawyer filing frivolous lawsuits and bullying small towns. Should have went to another school that has no rules or morals! Stupid Leftist.
I also agree that you shouldn’t go to a school if you don’t believe in their mission. So if you have a problem with religious schools, don’t go there. If you have a problem with the military, don’t go to a military academy. People need to think about what they are doing before they do it.
This is a college first and foremost. The beliefs of the religion should not be crammed down the throats of its students. What happened to freedom in America? Any student should be able to fulfill there public service and any organized company. There are many services that planned parenthood provides that is beneficial to many. If a person can help just one person thats positive motivator to our society.
According to the St. Thomas Law public service requirement, the student should “promote and participate in service programs designed to address the needs and improve the conditions of the disadvantaged and underserved.”
The requirement is stated as: “Each student must complete 50 hours of qualifying public service between the beginning of his or her first semester of law school and the end of his or her last semester.”
In addition, in determining Qualifying Public Service, “The determination of the Dean or the Dean’s designee will be final.”
Law School Policy Catalog
St. Thomas is completely within its rights to make this determination, and it seems that they did so totally within their own policies.
At the same time, the community has every right to criticize the decision, even though chances are basically nil that they’ll change it. I think it’s ridiculous that they won’t allow her to work where she wants to work, but they have every right to make that determination.
Matt, it’s unfortunate you hate Christians like me so much. I don’t hate Christians - I never said that. I said I don’t like their institutions. There is a HUGE difference there. But I’m probably too ignorant to have any subtlety to my arguments or thinking, right? 
I hope that Tara decides to volunteer at Planned Parenthood on her own time and wears a big purple UST sweatshirt while she’s there to boot!
I feel sorry for your Simian and will pray for you.
WWII was not a religious war and Communism (not religious) killed tens of millions. This is just in the last 75 years- not going back hundreds of years to the Crusades.
I wish pro-lifer’s and pro-choicer’s could just find a middle ground. I think this blog is a good starting point to solve this problem.
It would be like some idiot working at PETA volunteering at a meat packing facility. Get a clue liberals!
Hopefully no St. Thomas law student ever works with a Murder Suspect because the Catholic Church frowns on Murder. In fact no St. Thomas law student should ever work with a sinner.
I LOVE how these folks on this board act like the students have no rights beyond selecting this school. In no other way could a person spend $128,000 of his own money and be told he has no right to complain about how someone handles his purchase. You folks would be the first ones complaining if it was your money and something was done in a way you didn’t like.
Does anyone find it funny that the letter from the students opposing Dean Mengler’s decision was signed by Jillian Dease…niece of Father Dennis Dease?
St. Thomas Univ. is totally within its rights to uphold standards consistent with its mission. Making the decision to go to a Catholic university should mean something.
95% of what PP does has nothing to do with abortions. The vast majority of their resources are used for cancer screenings, preventative care, and health services for the underprivledged who cannot afford medical care. Since when do those aspects not conform with Jesus’ message of caring for the sick and poor? After all, the “meek shall inherit the earth!”
Jeff, PP does much more than perform abortions, but their profit is in those abortions.
Yeah, Mike Potter!! You can actually spell. A first for a swastika-wearing, KKK, gun-toting, fascist like yourself. However, your grammar is terrible. I guess that’s not unusual for an inbred
So if PP did no abortions everyone would support them?
Mike Potter, zing, you really got those liberals. If only Bill O’Reiley would publish your material. Could you come up with worse analogy???? This has to do with graduation requirements. St. Thomas is not saying that she can’t volunteer–let’s get that straight.
This is just a big publicity stunt. Stupid ACLU wannabe. Cant wait to this waterhead gets her law degree so she can make this a worse society. I’m not Catholic, but if you go to a Catholic school, she should expect some rules. Get over yourselves!
I would like to see the proof for the statement that PP profits from the abortion services it provides.
Maybe Borton will get hit by a drunk illegal with no license, insurance and on the way to get an aborton.
Jeff, you are incorrect. Based on admission standards and national rankings St. Thomas is the second best law school in the state. Both Hamline and William Mitchell are easier to get into.
Oh good, I was waiting for the post wishing death upon the student for speaking her mind.
Thou Shalt Not Kill?? Really? What about when the Catholics massacred tens of thousands of people? Oh,that’s right,it was a long time ago so it doesn’t matter.
It’s a blog you jerk off. You leftists are so predictable. When someone doesn’t agree with your leftist pinko ideology you label them a racist, a fascist, or white trash. It’s May Day, go get your 5 gallon bucket and go bang on it downtown you anarchist piece of filth.
Jesse, the data on PP is public and they do not make their “profits” on abortions. They rely heavily on donations and barely break even most of the time. Either way, the point still remains that the vast, vast majority of their resources are used for preventative screenings, counseling, and health care for the poor. Once again, the question still remains as to how that is contradictory to Jesus’ message of helping the poor and lame.
lorelei… hopefully all liberals like you and the ACLU will enjoy their time in hell…
I’m so happy that we can all transcend personal attacks and talk about the interesting issue.
That said, I look forward to your next post Mike Potter. They’re pretty wonderful.
Nick, that drunk will be your mother.
No W, you are incorrect because I am a law school student in this state and it is widely known that St Thomas is the easiest to get into because of how new it is, its terrible location, and its need for students.
Does anyone really believe that this student just stumbled innocently into this controversy? Could she really have been shocked that STU, a Catholic school, might have a problem with giving her credit for working for the other side? Does anyone else smell a setup?
I am a St. Thomas alumna and lately, it’s becoming embarrassing to be one.
Planned Parenthood does a lot of great things. They do more than provide abortions. Would St Thomas allow her to work in a homeless shelter? They benefit drug users….St. Thomas remains one of the more hypocritical institutions around. Sometimes I’m embarrased to be an alum.
Diana, I’m sure St. Thomas feels the same about you.
I appluaud UST for finally remembering it is a Catholic institution. I can understand how conflicted the student must be after the University revoked the automatic seat of the Archbishop on the board of regents, the infatuation of the school with Cuba, the “worker’s paradise” that thousands risk death to escape at the first opportunity and other various and sundry steps toward secularizing the university.
That said, the student is a typical arrogant liberal who insists on poking her finger in the eye of good sense and common courtesy. If you want to be an abortion activist do it on your own time or at a non-Catholic institution. Don’t expect the Church to sanction your activity through its colleges.
The first step in becoming a good lawyer is understanding both your client and your opponent and not dismissing either. If you do you are doomed to fail. Tara Barton should repeat her first year in law school for failing to respect her adversary.
Reginald, you crackhead liberal, it’s your mom, welfare boy…
I went SJU in collegeville, Another Catholic University, and even though STU is a huge rival of SJU, I applaud them greatly for this decision.
Most points have been brought up already, few things to add.
The Catholic Church is not losing touch with its followers, the followers re losing touch with the Church. The Church Doctrine had been around for almost 2000 years. The majority that fall away never bother to look at why the church believes what it does, they just look for the easiest path for them.
A few have mentioned Planned Parenthood has other services, and that is true, but one of their services is contraception, which is also against church teaching.
Once again, bravo STU, keep up the Catholic teaching!
to Nick,
Now that’s a good Catholic boy….
Jesus would have no place in today’s catholic church….
see Matthew 24:11
Amazing! Now we’ve got “yo mama” jokes! It really doesn’t get better than this.
Amused, I’m not Catholic you worthless troll.
W says:
May 1st, 2008 at 9:38 am
“Jeff, you are incorrect. Based on admission standards and national rankings St. Thomas is the second best law school in the state. Both Hamline and William Mitchell are easier to get into.”
Spoken by someone who has no idea what the situation is with local law schools. Anyone who knows anything about area law schools knows this isn’t true.
Some on here keep saying that what the Dean did was correct according to Catholic’s core value, but as a St. Thomas grad, I didn’t see Catholicism in the student body at all! Many students partied, drinked, had one night stands, etc. so to make St. Thomas look goody, goody because of it’s Catholic affiliation is incorrect. Without PP, many students lives would be over.
mwheele. “Would St Thomas allow her to work in a homeless shelter? They benefit drug users.” Stupid analogy. Does the homeless shelter hand out drugs?
Wow lots of uninformed opinions out here. If you are going to attack the Catholic church and its beliefs, you should at least understand them.
Bringing in issues about the death penalty and war are distractions and would require discussions of their own. In this context they are simply poke and runs.
Taking a life is a mortal sin. There are some exceptions, which include cases of self defense, war, and captial punishment. There are no exceptions for taking the life of an unborn child. Even a child conceived by rape, incest or if the mother is in danger. Anyone who says that life begins at birth is rationalizing and ignoring a whole lot of actual fact.
it is helpful to know that this community service requirement is a requiremnt of graduation and is a not a paid for class. the student must present the project proposal for approval and then complete a paper or deliverable at the end of the effort. it is not simply a requirment to put in X number of hours and thats it.
St Thomas has every right to define that requirement and would be seriously wrong if it implicitly supported an organization that supported something contrary to one of the most important issues in the Church.
Those who are Catholic that believe the church is out of touch on the abortion issue need to reflect on their faith as they missed a key message along the way.
The media is liberal and the Strib is actively liberal. This article is more of the variety of “See look at this. Can you beleive they think this way?” Its a hit job.
Take a poll in a Catholic Church (or better yet, a Catholic school), and see how many are actively using birth control.
How come you don’t see families any more like the Kennedy bunch? Not just 2-3 kids running around - but 11 like good old Bobby or nine like the ultimate swindler Joseph K.
Why - because you know they are using birth control. Don’t lie to yourself - you know they are using it. Otherwise you would see the fold returning to the days of old with the mothers constantly pregnant - heck, keep them barefoot in the kitchen while they are at it.
Bunch of hippocrates to say the least.
Glad to say I am not one of them.
I’m amused that someone on here claimed that abortions were Planned Parenthood’s prime source of profit. Well, Planned Parenthood is a non-profit organization. It doesn’t make a profit. It makes enough to get by with the fees it charges and charitable donations. That’s the entire point why someone might volunteer there.
Nick, there’s no hell and no heaven. Just lights out when your head hits the dirt. I feel sorry for you and that other whack job Nazi Mick Pothead. You get on a soapbox, and preach your right wing fascism. But then you go and rape little boys. RAPE THEM!! You sick, twisted fruit cakes.
St. Thomas allows ROTC, which benefits the military, which is around to kill people. Doesn’t that run counter to the church’s teachings on non-violence?
Planned Parenthood income: $1 billion
Planned Parenthood, the nation’s largest abortion provider, made over $1 billion in income during the 2006-2007 fiscal year, according to its annual report. The non-profit group went from an income of $972 million in 2005-2006 to $1.017 billion this past year. Planned Parenthood said the increase “highlights our advancements in providing and protecting trusted healthcare services and medically accurate sexuality education.”
The report reveals that Planned Parenthood is performing more abortions now than ever. In 2005, Planned Parenthood provided 264,943 abortions, and in 2006, it was up to 289,650. In addition, the organization’s “excess of revenue over expenses” funds doubled from $55.7 million in 2005 to $112 million the following year.
Planned Parenthood also admits receiving more than $336 million in government grants and contracts from the state and federal levels.
“A majority of Americans oppose taxpayer funding of abortion – however, still Planned Parenthood receives more than $300 million in taxpayer funding each year for ‘family planning’ projects that help bolster their abortion trade,” said Tony Perkins, head of the Family Research Council.
Yet, according to Perkins, the ultimate slap in the face to pro-lifers is the fact that Planned Parenthood still receives money from the government while spending $10 million in this year’s election to support pro-abortion candidates.
http://www.lifenews.com, 3/28/08
I am a 3L at St. Thomas and if one goes by the rankings, St. Thomas is the second best law school in Minnesota. It has a great location/beautiful new facility. Also, the students and faculty, regardless of their views, are very tolerant of opposing viewpoints. St. Thomas’ law school has a diverse student body, where students generally get along.
I don’t fully agree with the ideas and values espoused by the Catholic Church, but it is St. Thomas’ right to set standards for their institution. Even if those standards are purely religious in nature, it is that private institution’s right to do so. They design the requirements for the type of educated professionals they send out into the world, and it is their responsibility to ensure their curriculum matches their mission.
Saint Thomas did their Law students NO favors here. None. It’s already tough to get a job out of law school, and now a Saint Thomas law degree will simply be worth less.
Simian, if you can prove, logically and rationally, that God does not exist, then and only then can you start to make statements that claim he does not. If you can’t prove it, then it is just your opinion, which I respect but disagree with. Have the same respect for those who do believe something they recognize and understand to be true, based on much empirical evidence. Also, wars are caused by the evil in our own hearts, which leads to lying, hatred, killing, etc. Humanity’s sinful nature causes all the distress you view around you, but if you want to believe it’s religion, that’s your choice. Just have respect for the intelligence and goodwill of those you disagree with. Thanks.
Simian,
Who is the sick one? You were a mistake and should have been aborted. Everyone knows it including yourself.
An article that quotes the Family Research Council doesn’t really give me confidence in its findings.
I am a 3L at St. Thomas and if one goes by the rankings, St. Thomas is the second best law school in Minnesota. It has a great location/beautiful new facility. Also, the students and faculty, regardless of their views, are very tolerant of opposing viewpoints. St. Thomas’ law school has a diverse student body, where students generally get along.
You may be a 3L, I don’t claim that you aren’t. But you really ought to know better. Four years ago, the law school wasn’t even accredited.
Planned Parenthood offers a lot of other programs and support that are not related to abortion.
That’s like boycotting GE lightbulbs because you didn’t like this week’s episode of the Office.
(GE owns NBC but one doesn’t have a lot to do with the other)
The UST leadership has continually been challenged with balancing the paradox between being Catholic and being a prestigious University. I personally question the prevention of of the students volunteer work and believe she should be allowed. Isn’t that exactly what the missionaries did - venture into groups of dissenters and non-believers in efforts to help them see as they do? To find God? Due to this paradox, unfortunately UST will probably never become the University it wishes to be.
Van,
You are an idiot. Did you smoke some weed before you came up with that analogy?
Simian when you lay your empty head down to sleep tonight and you take your last breath and your cold heart stops, remember that Jesus died for everyone, including worthless scums like you.
Jesse G, interesting statistics. However, did you know that over 80% of the abortions performed by PP, were on non-viable pregnancies. That is, the pregnancies were going to result in a still-birth anyway. Stated differently, the baby had a genetic defect, so catastrophic that it wouldn’t survive to birth. Now tell me why abortion shouldn’t be available??? Is it more humane to have a non-viable baby be “born” dead and disfigured, severly traumatizing the mother (and potentially father). Or would you like to see an eyeless, or headless one-armed fetus ooze out of your vagina?
Mike, I’m with you. Liberal trash is destroying this country and the world.
Chad,
You don’t have a point whatsoever. She was not intending to “save lost souls”. She is a leftist law student with selfish beliefs. She can kill babies on her own time. STU is not preventing her from doing that. They simply are not giving credit for helping a baby killing center.
Jpberka, your comment makes no sense, where should St. Thomas start? Four year ago St. Thomas had preliminary accreditation. It became accredited faster than expected because of all the hard work and money by the faculty and administers and, I believe, it was one of two schools ranked above the fourth tier with its initial ranking.
Well Simian, you’re obviously one of the oozes that survived…
With all the recent bad press UST is getting, I have been more and more embarrassed to be an alumi of this fine institution. I am very proud of my degree, I was prepared well and most importantly I was prepared to challenge the status quo and not blindly accept doctrine, but to question it, in the spirit of St. Thomas Aquinas. Seeing the powers that be get caught up in these petty fights and having it aired out in the press makes me wonder if this fine institution where I earned two degrees that paved the way for a successful professional career has lost its way. They can have both worlds, they are just choosing not to.
Simian, where do you get that 80% stat? Please show me.
Simian, that last senctece cracked me up!
Why not enroll at a predominately Muslim university and impose your values on them. Perhaps you could even force them serve ham sandwiches. Some people only see diversity with their eyes, others embrace the diversity they hear with their ears.
Simian,
Where did you get your stats from? Were they verified by an independent party? Maybe if society promoted family, and taking responsibility we wouldn’t have an epidemic of knocked up women.
Chad, agreed. This is the conundrum when a religious school gets involved with the education of the public. IF you want to give a theological education, go for it. But if you want to give an education that is applicable to the world as a whole, it is very difficult to apply every “catholic” standard and practice to the classes themselves. There is also the issue that many of the students themselves are either not catholic or are catholic and do not adhere to the practices themselves. This is to me is a much bigger issue for an institution that wants to be known for its values than the situation from this story. If they really cared about enforcing their beliefs upon the student body, then they would punish sutdents who got have misdemeanor drinking tickets on their record, students who swear in class, and students who have sex but aren’t married. This simply was an opportunity for the school to make headlines about its “standing up” for its values.
Tom McG, there is precisely nothing about my argument that doesn’t make sense. STU’s School of Law is not considered with any more prestige than any single other law school in the metro area, and that includes Hamline and William Mitchell. Sorry to break it to you.
You are right Jerry!
It would be helpful if UST spelled out precisely what percentage of ideological and/or doctrinal purity they expect of their students. What percentage do you think have sex outside marriage? 75%, 80%? What percentage use contraception at some point in their lives? I would guess about 95%.
Would UST ban law students from interning with the JAG corps or some other branch of the military? Both John Paul II and Benedict XIV have spoken about the evils of militarism. John Paul II spoke quite clearly about the injustice of the Iraq war.
Would UST ban law students from interning with US Attorney’s offices or Federal courts? Or state courts, aside from Minnesota? Those are all legal institutions that either seek the death penalty for criminal defendents, or sentence convicts to death. The death penalty is against Catholic doctrine after all.
Likewise, as near I can remember, Catholic Church doctrine doesn’t rank sins in order of their relative sinfulness. Sin is sin. So, if you can’t volunteer at Planned Parenthood because of contraception and abortion, but you can work in a government office that seeks the death of criminal defendants then UST is selectively applying church doctrine. Just like all of those cafeteria Catholics who have abortions and use birth control. Ergo, UST is playing politics just as much as it is defending church tenets.
US News doesn’t actually rank St. Thomas Law:
http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/grad/law/items
Pinko Liberals always looking for a loophole.
Maybe the Catholic Church should wake up and smell the coffee: do they think that no Catholics get abortions, use planned parenthood services and that no Catholic doctors perform abortions? Get real! Also, because a person volunteers at PP doesn’t say they support abortion. Walk in their shoes before you pass judgement!
MR, if you look in their search window for the school, it does show up as a Tier 4 school.
Way to go Tara. The services that are provided by Planned Parenthood fall within the laws of the this country. A law school is here to teach students the law and how to interpret it on their own. It is the practacing lawyers responsibility to then do this for their client and represent their client. In the same respect shouldn’t they be encouraging their students to start making these types of decisions in their daily lives? I wonder how much independent thinking can come out of a place like this. There are hundreds more lawyers in Minnesota then there are jobs for them and this number is growing each year. St. Thomas is a new school and the third class of lawyers educated there is just about to graduate, it will be interesting with time to see how lawyers educated at this institution practice. They have the advantage of the St. Thomas name and community networking, I hope that the classes are made up more of unbiased students like Tara and not like the administration who is imposing their values on all there students.
Thanks Jeff - Agree with your sentiments as well…
You’re right Deb and they’re all going to hell for it.
I’m Catholic, but Pro-choice. However, I’m glad to see UST sticking to their guns on this issue. And if the student doesn’t go along with it, find another law school to attend.
Mike Potter - nice comeback. Did you think of that all by yourself, or did you get help from someone with a brain?
Nick - that’s the spirit. Didn’t take long for your true colors to come out. Thanks for proving my point that religious folk are intolerant hypocrites.
Ingrid - I’d be happy to provide empirical data. Where to begin. Let’s start at the beginning. Scientifically speaking there are three distinct species of humans - caucasian decent, african decent and asian decent. That disproves the adam/eve theory. There may have been three sets of adam & eve, but your bible fails to mention that. Second, how is any language formed? By people. We (meaning humans) created all words, whether in english, spanish, hebrew, russian, japanese, whatever. Humans used sounds to create labels to help explain things and develop a common method for communicating with others. So when I say chair, you know I’m speaking of an object in which to sit. Over time, more and more words were developed to describe what people saw, heard, experienced, etc. The point is that humans created all words, including god. The concept of god is something a human had to come up with as with any other word, concept or idea. Which makes it entirely fallible. Then one only needs to look a the history and corruption of religion to figure out what it’s true purpose has always been — keep people stupid and in-line. That way you control them. It’s an outdated paradigm whose demise is long overdue.
Nick, last I checked, you don’t determine who gets into hell. I promise you that God won’t be looking for your input on judgement day.
Thanks jpberka. It shows up as a Tier 3 school, 3rd behind the U and Hamline.
I forgot to attach the link:
http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/grad/law/search/state+MN
I have to say, these ultra-liberals in here really strike fear for the future of this country in me.
First off, let me preface this by saying that I am NOT a catholic, and am barely a practicing Christian. However, to hear some of you say that the sole purpose of the military is “to kill people”, that Christians that use birth control are hypocrites, and that just because some students at UST “partied, drinked(?) and had one night stands” means that UST should completely abolish all affiliation with the Catholic religion proves just how ridiculous and flat out crazy your rational is.
JP, nope, but God does and his word is very clear.
Funny how many of the arguments are “because most Catholics are not very strict and often go against doctrine there should be no accountability”. Now that STU actually has shown it has a spine you are now up in arms. What if you got a job at a Muslim school and volunteer to pass out condoms and the Tora? What would you expect to happen?!
Simian, I prayed for you. You are obviously one of the lost sheep.
bgsm1th,
Exactly! The liberals say that the rules are being broken so it should be a free for all.
http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/grad/law/search/c_final_tier+3/page+2
If you look there it will show St. Thomas is a third-tier law school, not a fourth…jpberka, I’m on the second floor of the library if you want me to show you that.
Simian,
Go down the PP, maybe they can make an exception for you and finish the job your mother didn’t do.
Simian -
You are full of beans when you say that 80% of the abortions are on nonviable pregnancies. Show your statistic with a source for that statistic. You pulled that one out of your backside for certain.
Wow. Your intellect and rational arguments overwhelm me, Mike Potter.
http://www.emusing.com/imgs/page_imgs/images/ugly_man.jpg
A pic of JPBERKA’s MOM
Simian,
Its fun to read what you are writing.
Your logic is very unique in the sense that it doesn’t require a comeback response. It is a comeback to itself.
Your welcome!
Jesse G:
Please check your facts as the official balance sheet of planned parenthood states they colleted over 1 billion in REVENUE and 903 million in EXPENSES. 1 billion profit is completely different. I don’t think lifenews is a credible source. Check the official filings going forward.
This is the right wing using false information to prove their position.
“Nancy says:
May 1st, 2008 at 8:54 am
Thou Shalt Not Kill is pretty self explanatory unless your ignorant.”
Anyone else catch the awesome irony there?
(Pssst…watch your contractions, non-ignorant one)
Nick, thanks but you’re not a shepherd and I’m definitely not a sheep. Again, there is no god, you’re not praying to anyone or anything that will hear you. It’s unfortunate that you’re going to waste this life in the desperate hope that there is an after-life. The good news is that when you eventually die (and I truly hope you have a long life so you eventually realize the truth) if your heart stops first, your brain continues to work for a good 20-30 minutes after that. During which, you’ll realize that you’ve been wrong the entire time you believed.
Mike Potter - Thanks for advocating for abortion. I’m glad to see you’re pro-choice. Let it be said here first that MIKE POTTER IS PRO-ABORTION, PRO-DEATH!!!
Three cheers for St. Thomas! They have absolutely no reason to apologize for upholding Catholic Doctrine. I don’t think it’s a secret St. Thomas is a Catholic School. If you have a problem with that, don’t attend.
Catholics piss me off…
This nastiness and labeling is getting ridiculous. People are complicated. My mother can’t stand our president, leans strongly toward social justice and volunteerism, attends a catholic church, is pro-life, and is a liberal democrat. All of this back and forth name calling is absurd. Everyone I know thinks about these issues beyond the labels. And no one “loves” or prefers abortions. Some people believe that the option should be safe and legal. It’s a painful, difficult choice. People don’t have abortions for amusement, and the reasons they have them are many, including rape, incest, and unviable fetuses. Nothing is as black and white as some of you choose to see this issue.
Simian, your stupidity amazes me. I was being sarcastic.
If you don’t like the school’s policies, then go to a different school. Tolerance has been redefined to mean that you can do whatever YOU want and no one has the right to disagree with you. Grow up. Freedom of association works both ways, not just in your favor.
Graff, As a person with an English degree from St. Thomas, I noticed the lack the “your”. lol.
Simian, God exists just as much as you do. You can deny Him all you want because you don’t want to own up to the sin in your life. Someday you will stand before Him and give an account to all the lies you are speading to deny that He exists. God have merci on your soul that day.
As a current St. Thomas student I understand that I don’t make all the rules but as a consumer they certainly never asked me about my stance on Abortion before they cashed my tuition check.
Although it is a good thing that Jesus didn’t go to St. Thomas, they wouldn’t let him intern with all the prostitutes and tax collectors, which was some of his best work.
CMC,
Go back and read. The intolerance comes from the leftists posting. They bash the church, labeled those who disagree Nazis and fascists. They are only tolerant of those with there own beliefs. I’m not a coward and believe strongly in what is right. Even though I am a minority on this left leaning newspaper’s web site.
broad uneducated statements piss me off…
Tom,
Ignorance of the rules is not an excuse. Thats like shooting someone and saying to the judge that you didn’t know it was illegal to kill people.
Thou shalt not kill? Where are the protesters against the deaths of Iraqi citizens and refugees in Darfur? Hypocrisy rules the Catholic Church. How many American Catholics actually follow ALL church doctrines? Only one that I have ever met and I married into a LARGE Catholic family twenty plus years ago, and it is not a family member.
St. Thomas is well within their rights to limit the kinds of charity work counts for college credit. However, they need to recognize that they are actively downplaying their Catholic identity when recruiting students, and then being surprized when their student body doesn’t share their beliefs. If St. Thomas wants to be a Catholic institution, it had best be prepaired for the reduced student diversity, number of applicants, and tuition revenue being so exclusive entails. This is a case of both the students and the school wanting to have it both ways.
David said “Tolerance has been redefined to mean that you can do whatever YOU want and no one has the right to disagree with you. Grow up. Freedom of association works both ways, not just in your favor.”
I completely agree. The leftist liberals are the ones that are not tolerant. They don’t respect anyone that has a difference of opinion. They scream and yell, and name call.
Tom, great point. St. Thomas Law School would not let students do internships with many of the areas where Jesus did some of his greatest works and teachings. Just because you are against an act, that does not mean that you cannot be there to help out in other areas that are done in the same location. Did Jesus never go into the courtyard to preach even though prostitution occurred there? Did he never go out into various homes where adultery and fornication occurred and never teach them the Word of God? No. He went everywhere in order to help all those who were around Him. To classify PP by just one their activities is ignorant and sells short many of the other great works that they do.
If you don’t agree with the policies that a private Catholic university has, then you shouldn’t attend that school. It’s not a public university - they can have rules based on the beliefs of its religious affliation and they have every right to enforce them. If you don’t like that, go somewhere else.
It is worth noting, as others have here, that the school didn’t say she can’t volunteer there on her free time - that they do not have the right to do. What they said is that she can’t get credit for it at the university.
Robert,
I agree with you completely.
To quote Mike Potter:
“Go down the PP, maybe they can make an exception for you and finish the job your mother didn’t do.”
“your stupidity amazes me. I was being sarcastic.”
You’re doing a great job of showing how tolerant you are. Pot, meet kettle.
Mike Potter - Aaah, the comeback of all comebacks. Rather than take on the comment itself, you resort to name-calling. BRAVO. What is “stupid,” actually it’s quite comical, is your inability to put together a cogent argument as to why, in your opinion, I’m wrong.
All Others - For those of you who want to know where I get my statistics on the number of unviable pregnancies as a percentage of all abortions. No, I didn’t pull them from my backside and I’m not full of beans. I have a close relative who works for one of the largest health care providers in the state (coincidentally the relative is pro-life) and that relative is the one who has access to the statistic. The statistic IS real and accurate (if not a little low).
Jeff and Tom,
It’s not a great point. This ACLU wannabe was not there to “save souls”. She was there to help an organization that helps people destroy a life. It does not compare with Jesus who helped the lost.
Don’t worry… Borton will end up working for the ACLU defending rapists, child molesters, perverts, God haters and every other liberal loser out there. I’m sure Hitlery Clinton will hire this bimbo.
My point about the rules that St. Thomas enforces is that they turn a blind eye to them when it benefits the institution. I don’t necessarily disagree with the position St. Thomas took, but it seems Disingenuous on their behalf to take her money with the views she has.
Mike Potter, I noticed you didn’t comment on my part about Jesus being an intern at St. Thomas.
Simian, you can get off your knees and stop kissing Borton’s feet anytime now.
Simian,
You have tried to discredit me by saying the same liberal drivel you always spew. You are wrong brother!
This is a quote from you earlier in this blog today. “So all of you whacked out, fascist “Pro-Lifers” need to keep your nazi viewpoints to yourself.’
How do you know her intentions? Are you really her and this is one big practical joke? I hope so.
Simian - Thanks for your evidences. Let’s see - descending from 3 races, fine, the Bible does mention Noah’s 3 sons, Shem, Ham and Japeth and that all races descend from them. Also, through DNA testing we see that humanity has common ancestry. Also, language - how do you know humans made up language? Where you there when this happened? Interesting that you claim humans came up with the “concept of God”, whereas God claims He made humans and is the Creator of everything. Both things can’t be true. The reason I believe God made us and not that we made god is the evidence I have encountered for this in our world, and in my personal life. Obviously, we could argue our points for days. What I’d like you to remember is this - respect those who see the world around them differently than you do, and don’t make truth claims for something you cannot prove. Remember that everything in this world, including Christianity, is tainted by our sin, and that is what repulses you. The true light of the world stepped down into darkness to save you. Read the book of John in the Bible and see if you don’t find the story at least somewhat compelling. Grace to you,
Every few months, St. Thomas shines in the media for its continued lack of support towards true social justice - utilizing Catholic identity as its shield. Let’s not forget the issue was addresses by the Tommie of the Year whose commencement speech condemned the use of contraceptives as a sign of selfishness.
UST, shame on you for casting Catholic doctrine into academic opportunties!
Factchecker, you’re right, $1B in profit is much different than revenue. However, “the official balance sheet of planned parenthood states they colleted over 1 billion in REVENUE and 903 million in EXPENSES”- that shows a pretty hansome profit, would you agree? Why are we giving tax dollars to an organization that performs abortions, an act that is opposed by a great majority of Americans??
Nick, I guess that means Borton will be defending you. Oh and I’ll get off my kneews as soon as you stop raping that little boy you’re screwing right now. And tell Mike Potter to get his puny tool out of the poor little boys mouth.
I’m just wondering, is PP the only organization that is on the “Do not volunteer list” or are there other non-grata charities?
To be consistent with their rationale for censoring/restricting her choice, wouldn’t non-Catholic religious charities be off-limits because we all know that the Catholic church is the one true church and the other religions promote heresy. Or what about organizations that serve gay/lesbians or AIDS victims? Exactly how much should the perspective charity be in lock-step with the churches doctrines. Let the charity who is w/o sin cast the first stone!
Thank God I went to St John’s U, where at least they take a more open view of other faiths and points of view. UST needs to get their act together and quit trying to be a competitor to the
U of MN…..
Jesse G. asks: “Why are we giving tax dollars to an organization that performs abortions, an act that is opposed by a great majority of Americans??”
I guess the same reason we are spending trillions of tax dollars on the Iraq war, which is an act that is opposed by a great majority of Americans.
Simian, you’re a classic loser who blames everyone else for your problems in life. Go work for Hitlery and the rest of the libtards who want to destroy this country.
Tom and Jeff
You are wrong about Jesus. While He did go and eat with sinners and talk with them to try to help them, He tried to get them to follow him and turn away from their evil ways. PP does not try to discourage women from getting an abortion, they give it out as solution to a “problem”.
The analogy is not accurate in my opinion.
Dulce Monterrubio,
Its a Catholic school for crying out law. Shame on you!
Ingrid, I’ll keep my viewpoints to myself, when you bible-banging zealots do the same. Keep your religion to yourself. And don’t pray for me, don’t say “god bless” don’t say “grace unto you.” Because it’s all the same hypocritical bologna.
As an alumni of St. Thomas, I say that that she knows it is a Catholic University, so why would you even consider Planned Parenthood a good choice for a place to get credit. THINK young child! Basic church doctrine teaches you that abortion is wrong and therefore supporting Planned Parenthood would be wrong. There are HUNDREDS of organizations to work with in the Twin Cities area. I think perhaps you wanted to open a can of worms?!
Simian,
You must have been a partial birth abortion gone wrong. When they grabbed your head at 8 months old and drilled a hole in your head and sucked your brains out, they must have left a few cells.
The only way Mengler can act consistent with Catholic doctrine is to deny any student’s request to intern with the Republican party. They’re platform is pro-death penalty, which is anathema to Catholic teaching. We are witnessing intellectual dishonesty on Mengler’s part in that abortion clinics are off limits, but pro-death penalty political parties are perfectly fine to associate with.
As a UST Law Grad and someone who regularly defends “rapists, child molesters, perverts, and God haters” at the Public Defender’s Office, can I just ask that we dial down the rhetoric here?
Abortion is probably the single most dividing political/moral issue in America right now. I happen to be a non-Catholic, pro-choice, anti-abortion supporter of the decision by the Dean.
We can’t all be summed up through “liberal” or “conservative” labels.
Let’s have some respect!
Simian… God Bless You!!! Grace be unto you!!! And I am praying for your soul!!!!
Liberals scream and yell and name call…that’s a laugh. Do you read your own posts before you submit them?
As for wishing hell upon me or anyone else- what I have found so interesting about some christians is the very lack of Christ-like behavior from them. If Jesus heard some of these comments he would be appalled. It is this sort of hypocrisy that de-legitimatizes your profession of faith. You are not christians. You are something else, and that thing you are is very dark and destructive.
Planned Parenthood is instrumental in preventing who knows how many unwanted pregnancies each year. It goes without saying that if those pregnancies were not prevented, many of them would end up terminated.
UST has the right to enforce whatever rules they feel are necessary. I just hope the law student continues to pursue volunteering at Planned Parenthood. The work they do is vital to the health and well being of millions of low income people every year. No other agency or organization does what it does.
My donation check, courtesy of George Bush’s stimulus plan, will be in the mail on or around May 9.
Peter…..you had the best response. If she wants to volunteer on her own, she is free to do it.
The best way to help people find God is to send the volunteers to where people need them the most. I believe they should allow her to volunteer there.
CMc,
You are right; people are complicated. I could share some things about myself that may lead one to label me “liberal” and yet I hold several other beliefs which would be termed “conservative”. I understand religion is a highly emotional topic, but the hostile personal attacks are too much.
Anyone notice the pic displayed is of the St Thomas campus in St Paul, not the actual law school which is in downtown Mpls?
CTE… It takes a low life to defend a low life. Might as well join the ACLU.
When St. Thomas opened its law school a few years ago it was not because more lawyers needed to be trained in Minnesota, in fact there are hundreds of unemployed lawyers in the the state… the only reason I speculate that they opened the school is to make money and support the catholic doctrine, this kind of reaction therefore should be expected
Hey Nick…you’re a dickhead.
-Nick
Honestly, what is wrong with you people!?
“UST, shame on you for casting Catholic doctrine into academic opportunities!” Are you people serious!? They’re a PRIVATE CATHOLIC INSTITUTION!! What people do in their own time is their business, but UST has absolutely NO obligation to give them academic credit for it. If this lady feels so strongly about PP, I better see her there every Saturday “fighting the good fight” even if it’s not for academic credit or SHE is the hypocrite, no UST.
Furthermore, UST is only getting pulled through the mud because for whatever reason, Strib seemingly focuses solely on the problems at UST and has no interest in what’s happening elsewhere at other local places of higher education. These types of struggles take place at every University in the country, but Strib is only interested in dragging UST down. For what reason, I don’t know.
A different Nick… You’re a raping liberal God hating scumbag…
Simian - duly noted - may it be unto you as you wish. I never said you should keep your viewpoints to yourself, but I did ask you to respect the viewpoints of others, not trash them. That’s all.
A different Nick - well said! Thanks for the good humor 
Jesse G:
Please note than even many national christian value based non-profits hold many millions on hand at the end of the year. So Planned Parenthood is no different.
For instance, if you look at Focus on the Family’s year end balance sheet you’d see that they have 78 million profit at the end of the year. What is the difference there?
Very similar situation. PLEASE check your own facts and stop relying on lifenews.com, which will obvisouly be a biased source.
Graff -
Thank you, thank you, thank you!
I can’t even enjoy the usual bantering back an forth. Man… okay… let her rip folks!
And now back to the right-wing facists and the liberal pinkoes… (which is a new one to me).
Do those adjectives always go together, or did you customize the list just for me?
-Nick
Still praying for you Simian…
This makes me feel embarrassed to be a student of St. Thomas. America is supposed to protect people’s freedom of religion, and St. Thomas doing the exact opposite.
Ingrid - fair enough.
A different Nick. Just for you. You’re special at this moment. LOL
Nick and Mike Potter,
What is your objective in hurling personal insults all over the place?
Dan L., PP does abortions as a last resort. Preventative care is their #1 priority. Their successes in preventative care is also why the number of abortions in this country has gone down. This girl stated that she wanted to be at PP to help with RAPE COUNSELING. How is that at odds at all with any religious doctrine? They should then not give credit for anyone who volunteers with the federal government since they, while they do perform great works, also use the death penalty, kill civilians in Iraq, and allow for casinos to operate.; all of which are things that Catholicism is against. But do you see St Thomas not allowing people to intern in those aspects? Nope.
I bet we give tax dollars to Focus on the Family too with the whole faith based initatives from our “wonderful” President
MR… just giving back what is received. You can’t stand your own medicine can you libtard?
To “H” - If you’re so embarrassed at your catholic University upholding Catholic values, take your $30k/year and leave. Do it today.
Wow Blogs, can bring out the worst in some people. It is amazing what some people will say when they can hide behind a computer screen. It really is discouraging to read some of these posts and see the lack of understanding and respect.
I am proud to be an alum of UST Law School because of situations like this. Our school is a rare gem because Catholic doctrine is the foundation of all we do and learn. To stray from that standard would make us just like any old law school.
“A different Nick… You’re a raping liberal God hating scumbag…”
Nick, you attempt to preach to others while sinning on a massive scale on this board. Maybe the rest of us should be praying for you.
You watch. Five years down the road we will find out that Borton had an abortion.
MR,
This is a quote from Simian “So all of you whacked out, fascist “Pro-Lifers” need to keep your nazi viewpoints to yourself.”
I’m just dishing it back. Liberals are only tolerant of those who they agree with.
Factchecker-
As far as I know, religious charities do not get tax dollars with which to “hold millions on hand”.
Back to the issue of abortion, why is this a federal law when it should be up to the states? Are there federal rape, murder, or arson laws? No, they are state laws. Federalism needs to be opserved and Roe v. Wade overturned. Notice I am not calling for the outright banishment of abortion. Even though I am pro-life, people (not activist judges) of each state should make the abortion laws.
JP - Please pray for me. I need Jesus every second of my life.
H, how do you figure the school isn’t protecting freedom of religion? She can volunteer there if she wants, she just can’t do it to fulfill her public service requirement
I am confused, does St. Thomas not participate in the ROTC program. There are things in the military that go against Catholic doctrine. But, this does not seem to prevent ROTC participation. If an organization is going to follow a doctrine, they need to follow it completely.
This shouldn’t even be an issue. This should be common sense! Its a Catholic school that opposes abortion. Why cant you liberals respect those who you disagree with?
Is there a way to just automatically delete all of simian, Nick, and Mike Potter’s comments.
It would be nice to actually have an adult conversation here.
bgsm1th: Too late. I already graduated. There are many Catholics that hold values that aren’t exactly the same as yours. St. Thomas is letting specific “views” obstruct others freedom of religion and their academic pursuit. So I’m still embarrassed to be part of that school. Furthermore, planned parenthood is about prevention. Not getting pregnant in the first place is a superior alternative.
That’s right Matt. Get the libtard controlling rag paper to prevent us from stating our views so only the libtards can spread their lies. Good one!
Craig,
Doe they actually kill at ROTC training? No they don’t! Do they do kill babies at abortion clinics? Yes they do. End of argument.
Ms. Borton is free to, and should, put her convictions where her mouth is and withdraw from the university.
If she’s not willing to do that, she shouldn’t raise too much of a stink. The university has it’s policies and if she is a student there, they do apply to her.
H– She can volunteer there is SHE WANTS TO!!!!!!!! There is NOTHING stopping her from doing so!!!!!
Mike and Nick, check out my first post. It’s a while back. I believe that St. Thomas was well within their rights, according to their policies to do this.
I also believe that this individual was well within her rights to complain loudly. I disagree with the decision, but clearly there’s nothing that I can do about it.
I respected you right up until you started suggesting that people ought to be killed.
“Is there a way to just automatically delete all of simian, Nick, and Mike Potter’s comments.
It would be nice to actually have an adult conversation here.”
Another step towards communism.
Seriously, This is a private insitution that has a Catholic mission at its core. Planned Parenthood supports and finances abortion and contraception, two things the Catholic Church has NEVER once waffled on. I’m actually quite surprised the reporter blogged on this topic as if this is some sort of controversy. Now if this was the Law School professor at the University of Minnesota not allowing the student to volunteer at Planned Parenthood, then I could understand. But when you enroll at a private institution like St. Thomas you sign off on a mission statement for that institution. Sorry Tara, maybe you could stop whining and find another volunteering opportunity. Planned Parenthood certainly can’t your only option.
“H” -
First off, I’m not a Cathlic, second, I personally am ALL FOR PP. I think they do good work and I whole-heartedly agree that prevention is far superior.
However, I just can’t see how one can blame UST for upholding their beliefs. I still don’t see how that is inhibiting other from practicing their religion. I was free to practice my non-Catholic religion while I was there. I don’t once remember the UST gestapo from breaking down my door and shoving a bible down my throat…but perhaps I’m one of the lucky ones…
As a student of law school, she wouldn’t have enough time for the full school load plus volunteering at so many different organizations. St. Thomas is enforcing the public service requirement for graduation. So if planned parenthood is her passion, that is between her and God. The school has no right to force their “version” of Catholicism on her.
As a St. Thomas graduate and non-Catholic, it annoys me that they are not allowing this student to do her required service at Planned Parenthood. There is far more to PP than abortion. In fact, the majority of their services are health care for men and women, and pre-natal care for pregnant women. Especially now, with medical costs so out of hand, and PP offering sliding-scale fees.
I remember from my days at CST/UST, they certainly supported and encouraged students to go down and protest at the PP on Ford Parkway. You could sometimes hear students bragging in the cafeteria about the sick, cruel, and often vicious things they said to clinic patients during their Saturday protests. (Sadly, most of the people they harassed were probably there for basic medical care, NOT abortions.)
The on-campus “pro-life” group had to get a new national group affiliation every year - they kept getting kicked out of the for being too extremist!
I still remember one comment screamed by one of their members standing at an “information table” on campus- “Unwanted pregnancies have NOTHING to do with abortion!” (And reality had no place in their world, apparently.)
MR… It doesn’t matter if you respect me or not. It only matters what God thinks. And if He has a problem with some of the things I said, I’m sure He will deal with me regarding it.
Oh, kids. There’s really no need to fight. Name-calling and hurling insults just makes you look juvenile and lowers the validity of your argument.
Let’s do our research, shall we? Check out page 6… http://www.plannedparenthood.org/files/AR_2007_vFinal.pdf
So, according to that, Planned Parenthood performs nearly 300,000 abortions a year. Since according to the Catholic Church life starts at conception, that would equate to 300,000 murders a year, regardless of any other services they provide (and they’re hardly the only agency that provides sexual violence counseling or women’s health services, etc. There are quite a few pro-life agencies that fill that niche as well.)
St. Thomas is a privately funded Catholic school: http://www.stthomas.edu/aboutust/mission/default.html
Okay. So here are the facts:
St Thomas= privately funded Catholic institution
Catholic School= believes abortion of any kind is equal to murder
Planned Parenthood= organization that performs 300,000 abortions (aka murders) every year
To be honest, I’d lose respect for St. Thomas if they allowed her to help an organization that, in thier eyes kills enough people to populate a small country. (And personally, I don’t think God has to come into this argument at all… there are plenty of atheists I know that believe that abortion is murder, too.)
Okay. I’ve said my piece. If you’ve made it this far, thank you for reading.
Mr. “H” is ashamed to have attended St. Thomas. Okay, so what’s your point? And your contention that Planned Parenthood isnt just about abortion, “it’s about prevention” proves that you’re very uneducated when it comes to Catholic Doctrine, which states that any form of contraception is immoral. Maybe you don’t agree with the Catholic Churches views on life and sexuality, well I feel bad for you that you went to St. Thomas then.
tarABORTon :p
UST recruits people of all faiths to attend. If they wish to forward a fundamentally Catholic doctrine, they should be up-front about it. I attended there when it was CST, and indicated my concerns about indoctrination, and as assured that there would be no such thing going ong…that the required theology classes would be taught in a way that was more like “the bible as historical/anthropological record”. Guess what? The place was totally indoctrinational…even requiring us to stand and say the school prayer before theology classes.
The university wants its cake and eat it too. Let he volunteer at Planned Parenthood, or refund all of her tuition with an apology to her and the entire community for hypocrisy.
Chris,
Basic medical care as ie: sucking the brains out of a child that is weeks away from birth.
Tara Barton is an example of a growing problem of “entitlement” in our country. Every day we can read about someone like Tara who CHOOSES to include herself in a group she disagrees with (Catholics in this case); but then she feels entitled to special treatment, and assumes an institution like UST will change doctrines and principles that have been in place for 100s of years in the Catholic faith. At some point in our country — and especially in our pathetically liberal state of MN — the minority voice on an issue has somehow become the deciding factor…. whine enough like Tara, and you’ll get your way around here.
AJC - Great point.
Craig Lawless,
Why don’t you apologize for being intolerant of those you disagree with!
By the way, does anyone there volunteer at programs that advance other faiths (Hindi, Muslim, etc…or even Methodist, for that matter)?
Typical Catholic high-and-mighty-ness.
Jason Matthews…UST Law students are not allowed to fulfill their public service requirement through an internship with the Republican Party…or the DFL or any other political campaign/organization.
Many of you people don’t get it. There are guidelines on what are allowable. This is a graduation requirement and the University is well within their right to deny a request that flies squarely in the face of their Mission.
While many students may not be Catholic, that’s fine, however they still need to live by the rules. This is a Catholic institution, that follows Catholic doctrine. If you don’t like it don’t choose to come here.
Just like the Muslims that want to get drivers licenses wearing capes. There are rules for a reason, if you don’t like them don’t drive a car!
I don’t believe I am required to turn the other cheek. That’s your gig, friend.
I call them like I see them. This is crap…the same myopia that got UST such fine press over Desmond Tutu.
I understand that it states in the Catholic doctrine that “contraception is immoral”. However, this is extremely outdated. It is not immoral at all; In fact, it is RESPONSIBLE. I’m sure God would rather have me use a condom then to have one of his children brought up in a household that isn’t ready to properly care for the child. The fact that I disagree with this part of the doctrine doesn’t mean I’m not catholic anymore. Suggesting so implies religious intolerance.
H:
What about protecting the freedom of religion for those who actually believe in what St. Thomas is standing for? You don’t have to agree, you don’t even have to believe it… but if there is supposed to be so much tolerance for everyone else, why does it go out the window for a private institution founded on teaching catholic beliefs? This country does protect freedom of religion and that is why there are other Universities and opportunities for those who don’t agree.
Craig,
Sorry to shoot holes in your theory, but I was required to take three theology classes at UST. I chose to take two very informative Islam classes taught by a practicing professor…
Nice observation, Disco!
Mike, last time I checked when you joined ROTC you had to complete military service , and what happens during wartime. I think they call it collateral damage, so no one realizes how many children die. Also, last time I checked, no actual abortions happen at Planned Parenthood. We need to remember to have all the information before we become so judgmental.
Question for Jackson-
I have family members and friends who are Catholic, at least they are attending church on a regular basis; however some of them admit to using birth control. Are they really Catholic in that case? By the way, my question is sincere!
Regarding the commandment- it is actually “Thou shalt not Murder”.
Check with Dennis Prager on this- his religion is one generation closer to those commandments.
Who’s being intolerant now, Mr. Potter? Also a bit xenophobic too. My god, they want to wear…their attire! What next?
You and Katherine Kersten should set up your own Hate Blog…oh wait, she’s already set one up.
There’s a difference between a Catholic law school and a law school that happens to be Catholic. In the first instance, the school would only teach Catholic laws (i.e. Vatican doctrine), in the second instance it’s a normal law school that happens to be housed in a Catholic University. So does the St. Thomas law school only teach the laws that it agrees with? Do they have to get permission from the Catholic League or the Vatican to discuss the Roe v. Wade decision, or is that off limits? What is the dean’s position on that?
bgsm1th, they sure as heck didn’t offer any classes like that when I attended.
So again, why the fuss specifically over Planned Parenthood? They do good in the community on so many different levels. Tell me others haven’t volunteered for programs that don’t toe the line of Catholic dogman and have been allowed to do so.
Look, she knew that this was a Catholic University Law School. She knew that volunteer credits would not be accepted due to this already being in the law student policy book. She is purposefully causing commotion by making this a big deal.
I really don’t know why she is doing this, she should be studying for finals since it is that time of the year. Funny how a first year law student likes to start an issue when they really don’t understand the legal reasoning for such constitutional issues such as seperation of church and state.
Additionally, all this talk about her sueing is plain silly. What standing does she have?
Isn’t this the same Catholic Church that bans organ transplants? I suppose you’re all going to cancel your organ donor cards now, right?
So what if she were involved in counseling people who were abused by Catholic priests? What would the school’s stance be then? Or would they consider it ok because they are getting “free counselors”?
Haha,
Craig, Funny you mention that…
I actually DID donate a kidney of mine shortly after graduation and I was featured in the monthly UST publication.
And I have to say, it’s not conservatives or liberals that are making our country spiral down the toilet… it’s extremists. When you have two opposing teams that refuse to even acknowledge the other side, and spend more time fighting each other than paying attention to what’s going on around you, that’s when you fall. All of you extremists out there… when our country finally falls- and falls HARD- from being the most powerful in the world, you’ll have nobody to blame but yourselves. The old addage rings true “United, we stand. Divided, we fall.”
Mike Potter:
PP provides medical care. Annual checkups. PAP smears. Colposcopy (an advanced test for cervical cancer). Blood work. Pre-natal care to ensure the birth of healthy babies by helping the moms get and stay healthy. Well-baby exams. In fact, PP does more to prevent abortion than any other organization in this country.
And not that you’ll apparently care about FACTS, but the vast majority (about 80%) of of abortions are done within the first ten weeks.
bgsm1th…
I commend you on your donation!
I assume you’ll have to ask for that kidney back? (I recommend staying on the wrong side of official canon on that one!
PP is nothing more than wolves in sheeps clothing…
craig: what are you basing that on? The chuch believes the following about organ transplants: “Organ transplants are in conformity with the moral law if the physical and psychological dangers and risks incurred by the donor are proportionate to the good sought for the recipient. Donation of organs after death is a noble and meritorious act and is to be encouraged as a manifestation of generous solidarity. It is not morally acceptable if the donor or those who legitimately speak for him have not given their explicit consent.
It is furthermore morally inadmissible directly to bring about the disabling mutilation or death of a human being, even in order to delay the death of other persons.”
Mike Potter is truly unhinged. Are you aware, Mike, that abortions are not performed when the fetus is “weeks away from birth”? You’re just making stuff up. And I imagine there is a vein in your forehead that’s about to explode - you are soooooo angry. Calm down. You are irrationally pissed off at people you don’t even know.
This is a fine opportunity for all youth to learn that life is not fair. Every day a person has to make choices and decisions regarding their lives, their beliefs and etc.
Perhaps it will make others who choose colleges to truly examine what their acceptance into a college really means.
Why is this an issue? If this was a non-Catholic university it wouldn’t have even made a blip on the Star Tribune’s radar.
CMc, obviously you’ve never seen a back alley abortion clinic where everything goes.
Craig,
As I mentioned before, I personally am not Catholic, I support the services PP provides and have even utilized them while attending UST (no abortions, I promise).
But I also support UST for sticking to their guns if they feel it is the right thing to do. I don’t always agree with WHAT they stand for, but I can respect that they stand for something.
Volunteer - to offer oneself willingly and without pay. If this volunteer opportunity is so important the student can find the time to fulfill it outside of the school’s curriculum. No one has died from too much volunteerism. Its a little late to cry foul because you made the decision to attend a Catholic institution.
I attended the University of St. Thomas and am not Catholic. Out of respect, maturity, and as a member of their institution, I adhered to their standards.
Well said Amanda, I’m in your boat…
St. Thomas is in a pickle if it accepts the rationale of a good number of posters. If all non-Catholic students must go to school somewhere else to find academic and educational freedom and tolerance, St. Thomas becomes so narrow as to be an irrelevant joke, and their plans to become a world-class institution go right down the crapper.
St. Thomas is a Catholic school, but that doesn’t mean it’s an extension of the Vatican. If St. Thomas can make a decision based on purely denominational rather than educational precepts about what constitutes a public service requirement, hypothetically there would be nothing to prevent it from requiring all students to volunteer in Catholic churches (after all, the one true church is really the only place where the most exalted service to the world is possible) or to stop having premarital sex while enrolled simply because Catholic teaching says it’s wrong. The issue here isn’t abortion: it’s what RATIONALE is employed by a licensed and accredited university in establishing academic requirements for non-Catholic students. St. Thomas should not be able to simply resort to Roman Catholic teaching in determining what constitutes “public service.” Unless it has an educational rationale for making Planned Parenthood off limits, it should admit that this is really a “Roman Catholic” service requirement, at which point it would likely have violated its non-discrimination pledges.
PP is nothing but a front to commit murder. Plain and simple. Take away all the other bogus services and the bottom line is death to an innocent life.
Interesting how the issue has evolved into uncivil attacks on the Left and Right.
Let us keep this narrowly focused. The issue here is a 1st year law student who is upset with the Catholic law school’s stance against rewarding her community service hours required for graduation.
The issue here is based on the American ideals for freedom of religion. This institution has a right to make such regulations, as long as such regulations do not run afoul of an individual’s fundamental rights under the US Constitution. Here, her rights in volunteering is not being denied, but the use of her volunteering hours to fulfill the educational requirement of her to attain a law degree from this institution is being denied.
Thus, this law school has done nothing wrong.
I am a current 3L at St. Thomas Law and found Dean Menglers decision to be completely valid. Not only am I a current law student, but I am also a non-Catholic. I decided to attend the school knowing it was a Catholic institution. I knew they would hold Mass everyday in the school Chapel, I also knew some professors would pray before each class. To think that a Catholic school will not abide by their Catholic roots is ignorant and self-righteous. It is time for people to understand that consequences come with decisions, if you can not accept the consequences of attending a religious institution, then please do us all a favor and attend a secular institution. There are still some parts of this world that will not compromise their beliefs to conform to individual thoughts and actions. I am extremely honored and proud to see that my Law School stuck by its beliefs even in the face of such adversity. That is called courage.
As a pro choice person I find the doctrines of the Catholic church to be out of touch with today’s society. They are not alone in their outdated views. Religion is just a way for one sect of mankind to try and control the others. That being said, St. Thomas has every right to uphold their beliefs. They are a private institution and people should make decisions on whether to attend that school based on the schools decision history. I don’t understand why this person would want to give her tuition money to a school that obviously is in contradiction to her own views.
MSLY - Excellent!!
Wow, well with all the problems UST has with banning speakers and censoring students maybe students should make a better choice. The choice of champions: College of St. Benedict/St. John’s University.
(This is tongue-in-cheek and only a joke. UST & SJU have a century old rivalry.)
Paul, you’re a fool! It doesn’t matter what society thinks, only what God’s word says. God’s word applies the same today as it did thousands of years ago. You can’t change to Bible to fit the changes of society, period.
Simian, what does killing unborn children have to do with whether God exists or not?
As an alumnus of St Thomas - dismayed
at the interference of the school in a
matter that is outside its boundaries.
Am a devout Catholic - believe in a
right to choose as life does not begin
at conception - scientific fact. Let
this student fulfill her public service
for the community at large as she sees
fit
It also gets down to the fact that conservatives (if you consider UST to be “conservative”) have few institutions left. The entire public education system is controlled by liberals (see Catholic bashing play last year at the UofM as an example). Now the left wants to take over the few private schools they don’t control right now. I won’t try to change Carlton or MaCalister and you don’t try to ruin Bethel or UST.
Nick - of course you can’t change the Bible to apply to the evolution of society and social issues, because the Bible is based on a 2,000 year old society.
An affiliation with PP is directly opposed to a central value of the Catholic Church. The school has never made a secret of the fact that it is Catholic and will reflect Catholic values, so I think it would be hypocritical to preach one thing and practice another.
I’m not saying everyone who attends school there should have to agree with what the Church teaches. One of the things I love about UST is that people are welcomed from all walks of life. But I would never walk into a Jewish synagogue (for example) and then get mad when they don’t preach about Christ as the Son of God. I would be respectful and realize that I had the option of whether to go there. Similarly, if people are going to get mad when the school they knew was Catholic does something in keeping with the Church, I wonder why they chose to attend in the first place.
I would disagree with the Dean if this were a public university, but in this case, I think the Dean needs to stick to his guns, and I admire him for defending the mission rather than trying to be too politically correct at the cost of the mission.
I’m proud to say I’m a lawyer who graduated from UST. Minnesota has 4 law schools, and no one was forced to attend UST. I went there by choice and would happily make the same choice again.
Correct on abortion. Many believers support it….ELCA even pays for their employees abortions. Many non-believers are pro-life.
There are pro-life pacifists out there who are 100% opposite me on all matters except this one.
I get so frustrated by the people talking about the “millions” made by PP…PP is a NOT FOR PROFIT, registered as a 501(c)(3) tax-deductible nonprofit charity. And they are not in the business of “killing” they are in the business of providing full and honest sex education and services, these include rape counseling, pap tests, STD tests, and counseling services, which are available at all facilities. Abortions are only available at a few facilities. Their actual plan and hope is to prevent the need for abortion, but pro-life thinks no one should have sex unless they are trying to add more to the population.
As far as all this…not sure how I feel about it. If the student committee gave permission, and gave the circumstances of that permission, and she was agreeable, it doesn’t go against the Catholic doctrine (if she stayed away from the contraception and abortion services). I’m really at odds being in the middle of the application process at St Thomas and feeling strongly in support of PP. But also liking more things about St. Thomas than the U for Business school…
I support abortion. In fact, there should be more of them. Then there wouldn’t be so many ignorant retards running around. Or posting on blogs… like myself.
God’s word is current to all societies past, present and in the future.
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention there also wouldn’t be so many damn Catholics, either. They make me sick. Bleck!
I transferred from the U to St. Thomas because of the fine education I knew I would be able to receive. I was told repeatedly throughout my admissions that the Catholic faith would not be pushed on those of other religions (like myself, and from what I understand is close to 50% of the student population). I found this to be very untrue - those that were not of the Catholic faith were expected to go along with the Catholic teachings and were not even allowed questions regarding the interpretation of the Bible that we had received through our own religion. While I do agree that the school has somewhat of a responsibility to uphold their religious beliefs, I believe by stifling students who care to follow their own beliefs will cause many fine students and future leaders to look to other schools for their education.
For those of you who say if you don’t agree with catholic dogma you shouldn’t go to a catholic school- your argument is far too simplistic. I’m assuming a majority of the persons responding are not St. Thomas Law School graduates, if you were you might have a different perspective. I was the third graduating class of St. Thomas School of Law (2006). At that point in time, the culture of the school was one of learning, support of various view points, and heavy but equal debate.
I am not a catholic but chose the school because of the opportunity to help shape the direction of a new school and the professors that they brought in were on par with some of the top lawschools in the nation. It is first and foremost a Law School with Catholic ideals as second.
The school specifically states: “The University of St. Thomas School of Law welcomes students, faculty and staff of all faith traditions and backgrounds, and those unconnected to organized religion. Our community includes Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Lutherans, Buddhists and Mennonites. Within our walls, all are welcome.” For orientation, diversity in religion, race and thought is heavily emphasized. That is why most of us “non-catholics” chose to attend the school. If you emphasize diversity then you must practice diversity.
Now on to the planned parenthood and volunteer hours controversy. People are either heavily pro choice or pro life and cannot be swayed from their view point. Both sides feel very strongly. After much deliberation the student board decided that she could volunteer at planned parenthood as long as she didn’t deal with contraception or abortive services. This left rape counseling, std counseling, and general female health. Only 3% of planned parenthoods “business” deals with abortions. Most women go to planned parenthood for an annual exam and pap smear because it is whats affordable especially if they don’t have health insurance. Planned parenthood does a great service for the community by providing female health services. But most of the extreme right wing catholics have focused on one or two points and completely discounted the majority of what is going on. Without planned parenthood, many women would not have basic health care.
Because the student board narrowed what Tara could do to fit catholic dogma a discussion should be open as to whether the school should honor the volunteer hours.
There are several alumni and students ready to step up and debate these issues. Its MUCH bigger than hiding behind catholic dogma its the direction the school is starting to take which many of the students and alumni are getting very concerned about.
Over half of the Law School students are non catholic and or liberal. We are in the legal community and will have the pocketbooks to support the school if we so choose. Many of us not only are willing to get involved but we will also stop supporting the school financially if this path of the school continues.
While the catholic church has its dogma, what the student board said Tara could do was completely within that dogma and beyond that she would be fulfilling the purpose of the volunteer hours- to help those in need.
Lol…funny how the liberals are not jumping on some bandwagon to call for the end of religions such as Islam that have absilutely no respect for human dignity or women’s rights, yet they freak out on some Catholic Law school’s decision over some volunteer hours?
The Left is simply illogical and insane.
“God’s word is current to all societies past, present and in the future.”
Unless a person doesn’t believe in God. There is that whole angle.
mb, I think you are joking, but the racial aspect does come into play. In Mississippi, 70% of the abortions are on African-Americans. Don’t have stats for Minnesota, but would like to see how many minority babies are aborted vs white kids.
Nick Potter: How old are you? Your posts seem like they were written by a 12 year old.
Simian: I agree with most of your statemtents, however I think that a more convincing argument for the non-existence of god could be made by addressing the multitude of scientific fields that address evolution and natural selection (biology (cell, micro, animal…), anthropology, chemistry (bio-chem, general chem, organic chem), physiology…)vs the bible (a book of stories written several hundred years ago). Just a thought.
One last thought. Is there a medical doctor out there that can talk intelligently about when life begins vs when that mass of cells can truly be called a human being? I’ve taken enough medically related classes (college level, pre-med) to know that in the early stages of pregnancy, the mass of cells inside the woman’s womb is not viable on it’s own. Calling the termination of this mass of cells murder is kind of like calling masturbation murder. Both actions result in the death of cells that have the potential to create a human being.
The school was founded on the basis of Catholic beliefs and its teachings and to provide a good education while adhering to these teachings. Bottom line: religion first, education second.
Just as it has been stated in other postings here, if you don’t agree with the philosphy, go elsewhere.
Why is it that so many liberals so harshly decry the thought of a public school allowing anything deemed religion-related, yet are the first to cry foul when a Catholic school exercises their laws?
Nick - Not true. The Greeks, in 240 BC knew the Earth was a sphere, but Christians believed the Earth was flat. It wasn’t until 1758 that the church allowed people to believe the Earth revolved around the sun. Furthermore, the Christian bible was largely based on roman laws, so I’m sorry, but the Bible doesn’t literally apply to current societies.
Jenn - Very well said.
The St. Thomas law school has been around since the early part of this decade, was at its inception, has been, and still is a third rate law school. It is obviously against academic freedom and the principles underlying the First Amendment, which though not applicable to St. Thomas as a private institution, provides guidance for universities in these situations. When I hear someone graduated from St. Thomas law school, I can do nothing but laugh. Now there is even more reason to do so.
Would this be comparable….I can attend a historic black univerisity even though I oppose affirmative action. You can attend UST even if ou are not Catholic and not wholly in agreement with Catholic teachings. But if David Duke appilies, would he not be allowed to practice his racial views at a black college. If you do pro-choice work, you are in direct violation of the church.
I too am a UST Law grad (2007) and whole-heartedly support Dean Mengler’s decision in denying the volunteer hours for the Public Service requirement.
It is heavily understood and known that Planned Parenthood is the major endorser and supporter of abortions. As a Catholic institution, UST Law may regulate as to what is considered acceptable and what is not.
I am not even Catholic, yet I still respect their doctrine/dogma.
Many of the partially fact based arguments voice here are pretty pathetic. Above all, it’s pretty ironic how folks who espouse, or openly admit to believing in, traditionally liberal ideals will denounce detractors in the same breath. Strange arguments for entitlesments for all regardless? Comparing aborted fetuses to death penalty recipients? Alleging that Nazis went to war for the same reasons as Crusaders? The Iraq war is entirely based in religion? Wow, simply put, wow. There are some truly misguided souls in this argument and I feel for them.
Doctor of Law seems to be the only cool, calm, and logically focused voice in this argument……..
UofMinn LawGrad. I am in the MBA program at the U. I am glad I have not had to deal with an ass like you yet. But then I guess that will make you a good lawyer.
UofMINN-LawGrad–
Your arrogance is unbelievable
It is obvious that U of M LawGrad is simply ignorant. Go bill some hours.
St. Thomas gets no funding from the Vatican, they are located here and they have to abide by US laws. Abortion is LEGAL in the US. Religious doctrine should not come into play in education period! Planned parenthood does good things for the community and has a great outreach program.
Women have a right to ‘Choice’ and it is the law. They have no right to impose their views in this at all. It is wrong. Either they are a university of education and diversity or they work for the Vatican. They need to make a choice! Otherwise, enroll Catholics ONLY!
He is probably billing hours while posting on this board
A thing that people tend to conveniently forget about abortion…
that most of the women going out there and having one are not jumping for joy at the moment their child is aborted. Many feel that there is no other hope, and why is that? Because there is no strong organization that could help her if she had the child. I read somewhere of a man who said something along the lines of, “The unborn babies better stay unborn, because hardly anyone bothers to help the mother who was forced to have her child.”
I am Catholic, I am pro-choice, but I am NOT pro-abortion. There is a difference.
Dave21- Aaaargh! It has been noted repeatedly that abortions account for about 3 percent of PP’s work, and only at a few clinics. By and large, it is a women’t health resource, especially for people who don’t have health insurance. I want women to be screened for cancer. That happens at Planned Parenthood. They have a multitude of services that have nothing to do with abortion. They offer birth control, which prevents unwanted pregnancies.
While attending a primary catholic school, your personal rights should never be made for you. We are talking about core believes based on what some non jewish “of whom Jesus was,” made up their own opinion of what books should be in the bible. Come on, please don’t try and tell me that is says in the bible thou shall not commit abortion. Simply stated it says thou shall not commit murder, what defines murder. I know all of you who are hugely against abortion are going to say life is life no matter what degree it is measured. I agree, yet opinions make those decsions. It is the same with stem cells research. If God gave us as humans the knowlegde with such information then I say we use it. Let’s not forget the telephone game as a child you tell something to someone one an so on, the primary information is changed, there is no reason to believe the bible is any different. Remember its core meaning, the leasons to be learned. There truly would be a lot less killings in the name of God in world if we actually practiced do on do others as thou should do unto self. I went off track, basic principle you can not ever tell someone what they can or cannot do regardless of what the affiliation is!
Lol…billing hours while posting! Sounds like he may need a dose in Ethics. No wonder the general population dislikes lawyers, ignorant greedy fools like U Of M LawGrad…
…that is why St. Thomas opened up a law school.
Did Jesus tell his disciples to not spread his message to the pharisees because they didnt preach the same message as him? No!! Jesus showed his love even to the pharisees and the prostitutes!! The Catholic Instution has become a human beaucracy full of its own self serving doctrines and forgotten the roots it should have come from. I myself as a Christian am ashamed to have it linked to my religion.
UST should be opening the door to finding ways to work together with Planned Parenthood. Sure, they dont have to agree with contraception or abortion, but instead of closing the door, work with them to help people learn that there are alternatives.
Upholding Catholic doctrine has become more important than sharing God’s love and being the ‘church’ they are supposed to be for the community, and its made ever so clear with issues such as this!
Simian, simply using words such as “empirical” and “scientifically speaking” does not justify making something up. Three distinct species of humans (Caucasian, African, and Asian)? Really? I believe that actual scientists consider there to be only one species of humans currently in existence (Homo sapiens sapiens; the only other subspecies, Homo sapiens idaltu, is extinct). Of course, scientists living in Germany in the 1930’s may have loosely agreed with your claims. However,scientifically speaking there is only one human species.
Saying
Planned Parenthood = Abortion is just like saying Catholic Priest = Child Molester
If that is all you hear about in the press, that is all you are going to believe, and from the blogs here that seems to be the case.
As for a business school being at odds with a church owned university - I ask since when has the Catholic church NOT been a business. They have been involved in economics since they began. And isn’t the Vatican one of the richest “states” in the world, despite their “vows” of poverty?
UofMinn Law Grad — It is too bad there are people in this world like you. I am a current 3L at ST. Thomas Law. If you want to laugh at me for the school I attended, you will be the only one. I feel bad for your family and friends who can’t/don’t live up to your expectations. It is your ignorance and self-righteousness that will leave you lonely and bitter.
I can’t speak for the Dean, but I honestly believe that it’s not the quantity of abortion services, it’s the guilt by association; the Dean drew that distinction while the Student Board did not. Simply put, in the Dean’s eyes he can not even indirectly support or agree with an organization that is even partially in disagreement with his or his religion’s viewpoints.
As a point of general information, a truly progressive argument or discussion on this matter in general would include opposing parties actually attempting to digest some or part of the opposing opinion. In this thread it seems as if many people are simply voicing volatile volleys just for the hell of it without due regard for actually coming together for a fruitful discussion.
Tori, where should I start….
PP is a promoter of choice, Catholic church made a big mistake in not dealing with it’s homosexual priets who like to poke teenage boys in the butt. But it is not a goal of the church, so support gay sex by it’s priests.
Do you know any priests? This Lutheran knows a couple through non-profit work. Please don’t use the word “richest” when describing these people.
Can I fly a confederate flag? After all, only 3% of southerners owned slaves. The rest provided services to the poor.
Regardless of what you think about the situation, St. Thomas is really at a crossroads and its’ identity will gradually change if they are not carefull. Catholic colleges have always been very “free thinking” and open to questioning doctrine. That is what makes them special. Now if they really want to be like a Bethel that’s fine but the cultural attitude and the cash coming in will surely change.
This blog has gotten off track dramatically!
I think the individuals here can agree to disagree on the right/wrong of this Catholic law school in denying the public service credit.
But does it really matter? This student went to a PRIVATE school-she personally chose this school over 188 other available schools. Now, I feel there would be justification in argueing the legal issues if she had gone to a public institution. However, this is not the case.
So really, this is much ado about nothing.
It’s a private school. They are entitled to make their own rules. I don’t agree with much of what Catholicism preaches either so you won’t find me attending U of St. Thomas.
If a student chooses to attend a faith based school they should expect to adhere to the values and morals set forth by that Faith. Too often the Catholic Church has been criticized for sticking to its long established morals. Planned Parenthood proports many programs and health responses that fly in the face of the Catholic Faith from abortion to the prescribing of birth control which inhibit the openness to life that the Church stands for. Perhaps, this student needs to use her “intelligence” and research skills to exactly see what her school and the Faith it represents stands for. How on earth can she assert that UST cannot place its values on the students. Arrogance, indeed!
To the U of M Law grad — you are the reason UST had to start a law school in order to place service and heart back into the practice! Hope you aren’t blogging on client time!
The problem with the decision is that it goes against the mission of our law school. We pride ourselves on the search for truth and justice. Tara has not been afforded the opportunity to search for her truth to the same extent as catholic law students. Another problem is that when trying to recruit potential students UST-Law tones down religious doctrine. When we were recruited we were told that the school prides itself on interfaith discussion and discourse. This is absolutely not the case. Those of us that disagree with the Dean’s decision feel cheated and lied to. The mission of UST-Law must change to reflect its true goals. Nothing makes me feel more ill than the fact that I am spending over $100,000 on an institution I am fundamentally at odds with and the fact that students were never afforded an opportunity to be heard until the final decision was made public.
Hey U of MN LawGrad…didn’t your “beloved” law school just drop down two ranks to 22?
“Catholic colleges have always been very “free thinking” and open to questioning doctrine. That is what makes them special. Now if they really want to be like a Bethel that’s fine but the cultural attitude and the cash coming in will surely change.”
I went to UST as an undergrad, and this was not my experience. I was ‘required’ to take THREE religion courses (all catholic of course) and when I questioned the priest teaching the class, i was more than once told it was ‘end of discussion’! When grades came around for the class where i questioned catholic doctrine… i had a 92% - B+! I had a few seminarian friends in the same class, one of them got a 88% - A. Nice free thinking & open to question!!
Meghan,
You CHOSE to got to UST Law. Go transfer…oh wait…you couldn’t get accepted into a real law school.
Jesus, save me from your followers.
Meghan,
You CHOSE to go to UST Law. Go transfer…oh wait…you couldn’t get accepted into a real law school.
St. Thomas is a business like any other. If they are going to be close-minded, then, they need to start stopping enrollment on all non-Catholics. You would never see that happen, as a good chunk of their students are likely non-Catholic. The school has no problem taking these students’ money, however. The simple solution in this case was having done what they originally said to do - go ahead, do it, and just stay away from the abortion and birth control areas. Simple solution. Win-win.
I find it hard to believe that anyone that has followed the University of St. Thomas and the Catholic religion over the past few years would be surprised by this move.
Private schools don’t afford students the same freedoms that public schools do. It’s just a fact.
ThatGuy - according to your guilty by association argument, then that means that democrats and republicans should never work together in congress to make our country better, because they disagree on 3% of the issues.
Some individuals here are simply ignorant. I mean, geez, you chose to got a private Catholic law school!
Like we need more lawyers!
The school is a private instution and they can do what they want. She can choose not to go there.
That being said,religion has and always will distort a person ability to think rationally.
Start challenging the thoughts you were born into!
Dave21
Please note I said richest STATE not individual - and in some cases (not the priest on the ground but those up the ladder) saying they are not rich is like saying Paris Hilton was not rich just growing up just because it was Daddy’s money. Access is access just as a wife is rich if her husband is.
And isn’t consent by silence when you have the ability to speak the same as condoning the behavior?
Why shouldn’t St. Thomas have every right to set the standards for their requirements? Just because you disagree with those standards does not mean that they cannot set them. This student is the one who is trying to push her beliefs on the institution. She had a choice as to whether to go to this law school or even as to whether to go to law school.
The law school never said that she cannot volunteer with Planned Parenthood. They said that they would not give her credit for that volunteer work.
If another institution that was vehemently pro-choice had a public service requirement they would be well within their rights to not give credit to an individual who chose to volunteer with a pro-life group.
By the way – someone mentioned in this horrifically long list of posts that UST was ranked third behind U of M and Hamline. I have seen nothing that puts UST behind Hamline. They are both third tier schools and it is my understanding that third tier schools do not have differential rankings.
Liberal thinking.
Killing babies that have done nothing wrong is ok.
Killing terrorists that want to kill you in the name of Muhammad who murdered thousands and had sex with children is bad.
I recently chose to attend one of the other Twin Cities’ law schools next fall, in part because of my knowledge of St. Thomas and their mission at the undergrad level.
My main issue with this story is that I asked direct questions of those at UST Law regarding issues of faith (I am not Catholic) and how that plays into whether my views were welcome or not welcome if I were to choose to attend.
What I was told, and what I believe they present in their literature to incoming students, is not in step with what this ruling by the Dean represents. UST Law can be founded in Catholic traditions, and make decisions such as this based on said traditions, but then they should present themselves as such instead of trying to pass the law school off as something different, or hiding behind open ended terms like “social justice” instead of the specific “social justice” that they will allow students to participate in.
“cafeteria Catholics” - that is the best line of this whole page!!!
Lots of people here stating they are of the Catholic faith. I wonder how many have a) had sex before marriage and/or b) used contraceptives? Don’t tell me there aren’t any people - that is pure BS. You know and I know it happens - more often than not. Religious school or public school - it matters not.
I’m pretty sure both those items should put you at odds against your beloved faith?
I also see people here claiming to be of the Catholic faith, yet they are pro-choice. How can you be both in good conscience? Is that not a direct conflict with church doctrine?
So glad I am a graduate of a public university. Check that religion $hit at the door.
Why are people so angry at St. Thomas? Maybe because it is the best university in MN?
It’s like the children who weren’t invited to the birthday party…so angry.
Go Tommies!
There are many valid, well stated comments and arguments here, but in regards to St. Thomas and the issue about volunteering at Planned Parenthood; I am sensing that some of the anger over the decision St. Thomas made is because it seems like the school may be following the Catholic ideology on some issues but not others.?? Yes or No??
Mike P. - The vein, be mindful of the vein.
The root of the problem does not lie in the decision of the dean but in the fundamental basis of making rational decisions. An interesting question to pose: Why has religion not progressed with the rest of society? If these “doctrines” have been in place for hundreds of years, why have they not evolved with society? Imagine the world if medicine or mathematics or law had not evolved and progressed. Keep in mind that slavery was initially supported using the Bible. Loose interpretations of the Bible have historically been used to rationalize the unthinkable. The use of an out-dated historical interpretation of a STORY, aka religious doctrine, to make decisions in 2008 makes absolutely no sense. How many times has the language in the Bible been changed? Whose “version” is most appropriate? It is scary that in today’s world individuals hide behind a doctrine instead of using critical thought. The dean had the opportunity to do so and failed. The dean made a choice to ignore the value in an organization that supports the better interests of the community in fear of disagreement.
i am a ust law grad and i applaud the dean’s decision. i am also not a catholic. i would expect, however, to abide by the teachings of the Church at a Catholic university. one of the things i loved about ust law was that it stuck to its principles and mission. there are many Catholic schools out there that appear secular. that is not the case at ust law and i am happy to see that they are sticking to their guns. as it becomes a top-ranked law school there could be the temptation to focus more on the academic success of its students, at the expense of the mission. i am so happy to see dean mengler not sacrificing the mission. i am proud to be a ust law grad.
Anyone who lives in the neighborhoods surrounding St. Thomas (as I do) knows that Catholic ideals often stop when the tap (or bottle top) is open.
TYH, why are they angry? I’ve posted before that the Twin Cities is one of the most narrow minded and intolerant places I have ever lived. The hatred towards Christians and Catholics on this board shows that.
Now, Hamline is trying to ban military recuiters. Other then breaking the law, I would have no problem with a liberal school like that doing this.
If you read the posts, most of the angry people are/were UST students
The money goes both ways, I stopped giving to my undergrad school after they went moonbat on me.
As a former Catholic and an STC graduate, I wonder why any woman would choose to be a Catholic or support its institutions. While the church generally still gets high marks for social justice, its actions must be taken as a whole. The church’s stand against ordination of women comes not from core teachings but from a long held animosity against women. Its so-called compassion for the poor and immigrants stems from its disasterous drive to overpopulate the earth (hopefully with Catholics).
This is for the confusion of some concerning ranking of law schools in MN:
Official US News Law School Rankings for law schools in MN.
(1st Tier) U of MN ranked 22
(3rd Tier) Hamline and U of St. Thomas (Please note, there is no ranking number in third tier or fourth tier, just alphabetical)
(4th Tier) William Mitchell (no ranking number.
H - but not all of us graduates are angry. We all knew the mission going in and we all knew that it is a Cathloic institution.
H-
You are wrong. UST students on this blog are not being the angry ones. It is the outside community who are angry over a PRIVATE institution’s decision.
Get your facts straight rather than spinning.
theGliberal wrote:
Anyone who lives in the neighborhoods surrounding St. Thomas (as I do) knows that Catholic ideals often stop when the tap (or bottle top) is open.
RIGHT ON - a big reason why I’m moving out of my Cleveland Ave. apartment soon. I’ve never seen a more arrogant, rude, loud, and self-important group of college students in my life. There seems to be a lot of anger seething below the surface in these kids. PS - Mint Properties can suck it.
Jesse G, the statistics and story you posted come from an extremely biased “news” source, “Life News”. Give me a break, you can’t expect to take that at truth! Find some proof at a real news site.
Dave21 - Although I understand your comparison to military recruiters at Hamline, I think it is offbase as that is at Hamline’s undergraduate school.
I think an important distinction to make, which seemingly few have, is UST’s undergraduate program and it’s law school … just like I would make a distinction between Hamline’s undergrad and legal programs.
As I stated earlier, if St. Thomas wants to push Catholic doctrine and ideals at the law school, they should represent themselves as such to eliminate situations such as these.
Its like subscribing to Playboy and bitching that there are no cartoons on the channel. Get some common sense people! Its a Catholic school. They might have some rules! Pull your heads out of your asses.
Doctor of Law - I do think it’s important to point out that many institutions, both undergrad and professional, reject the rankings of US News and World Report. Many I’ve talked to in the Minneapolis legal community think those rankings are meaningless as well.
PS…As to the rankings, there is no 2nd Tier. Just 1st Tier, 3rd Tier, and 4th Tier for the ranking of ABA law schools.
AJH - when did UST ever hide that it is a Catholic institution?
AJH-
I agree with you 100%. The rankings are very subjective.
If St. Thomas receives any state funding I think there is a real problem with the decision.
Nothing is stopping the student from volunteering her time however she wants. She just can’t use it for graduation credits - which is the standard St. Thomas set. Like it or not, when she enrolled at St. Thomas she accepted the standards, rules, and vision of that school. St. Thomas is a Private University with a foundation belief of Catholicism. Freedom of choice is going to some other school. If she receives financial aid (through St Thomas) it’s another reason to accept the decision of the university. Stop the whining and trying to make St Thomas accomodate her beliefs. She ought to get used to that - she will have an employer some day that will have rules that she doesn’t like.
“If St. Thomas receives any state funding I think there is a real problem with the decision.”
Why? Because you don’t like the rule?
Dave21,
1. There is a difference between homosexuality and pedophilia. It would behoove you to look up the definitions of both prior to posting again on the subject.
2. The Vatican is one of the richest states in the world.
You can deny these facts all you want, they are nonetheless true.
In matters of practicality, and as Jenn stated, UST will undoubtedly lose the financial support of some of its liberal graduates if it keeps up this sort of thing. The law student’s request was granted by a committee with certain provisions which were entirely in line with the policy of the school. Then the Dean overroad it. If that is the way things operate there, why have a student committee in the first place? Why not just have the Dean decide everything? If I were a student on that committee it would really tick me off that carefully made decisions can so easily be swept aside.
JJ
I read the entire post to come to that conclusion instead of just the most recent messages. I am one of them to (graduate), although I would say I’m more embarrassed than angry.
Read the post by Jenn (May 1st, 2008 at 12:14 pm) and Craig Lawless (May 1st, 2008 at 11:25 am). They feel tricked by the school.
MBG - Being a Catholic institution is not something they have ever shied away from, but that’s not my point. If you are going to let the Catholic doctrine directly impact what your law students can and cannot do, you should be open about that up front.
Their faith life statement reads, at one point, that “Our faculty members challenge students to consider how they can practice law consistently with their personal convictions, including convictions grounded in faith. Our students strengthen and refine their moral compass while learning the law.”
If St. Thomas wants it differently, they should simply represnt themselves as such. I have no problem with their decision as relates to Catholicism … I have a problem with the decision as relates to their marketing of their law school and what they want it to, supposedly, represent.
BillF
UST does not recieve state funding. That is why it is a private institution.
There is no legal standing as to any violation of the seperation of church and state issue.
I don’t know how many times I have to repeat that. Just like there would be nothing wrong if there was a private Islamic university that taught morals/ethics that others in the American community would not agree with. Or a Wiccan University that taught ideals of their own.
That is what makes this nation great, the freedom to practice any religion.
This Catholic law school has done nothing wrong under a constitutional analysis.
Does anyone think PP would allow any of their “volunteers” to provide counseling on abortion alternatives?
I didn’t think so.
I support the Dean fully in his decision. As to the question of his decision being likely to scare away students? Well, I think if he reversed his decision he would scare away another group of students, namely, those students who are interested in UST because the school does adhere to Catholic principles.
It is UST’s acknowledgement of it’s Mission Statement that drew me to the school, and it will be UST’s adherence to that Mission statement, consistent with the Catholic Church’s core principles of morality and social justice, that will continue to draw my support of my fine law school.
AJH - but they are not saying that she has to have the same beliefs as the institution. They are not saying that she cannot volunteer or work for an organization that performs abortions. They are simply stating that they will not give credit for that volunteer work. there was never anything in the marketing materials that said -’hey you can do whatever volunteer work you want and we will give you credit’
Can any UST student or graduate honestly say that the schools stance on this issue is surprising?
There’s not controversy here, and the Star Tribune is apparently desperate for anything that can attack St. Thomas to the satisfaction if its readership. It’s a Catholic Law School. The fact that this woman even thought she would get credit for it only gives testimony to the face that intelligence is not required to get into law school. She has plenty of time to fulfill the requirement elsewhere, perhaps at some institution that actually SERVES THE COMMUNITY>
I am a UST grad, catholic and a liberal. I am disappointed that so many people are closed minded at UST, I thought we were critical thinkers. Even if you go to a private school, you should still have the freedom to volunteer wherever you would like if it is not against the law, and PP is not against the law.
I love UST but some Tommie’s need to get over themselves, so many people at UST are hypocrites. If we all listened to the Catholic Church, no one would be using birth control! Good luck girls on that method.
380 felt that their own response was important to this news item. And Planned Parenthood issed a statement that seemed to feel that a Catholic insitution should arrive at their decisions based upon what is popular. Surveys and democracies, in what everyone sees as such a personal matter. Pregnancy. Sex. But surveys do not reflect on how someone ultimately makes a good judgement about sex.
The University of Minnesota has a certain number of spots available. There are other secular law schools throughout the U. S. In a society that has secular law schools which would alllow a student to earn her credits at Planned Parenthood, a law student at a Catholic law school wanted to work at a Planned Parenthood Clinic.
A woman, who once had applied to a Catholic law school, had an admission committee had accepted her as an applicant. What had they seen in her that reflected the values of the school , and all that this institution’s degree would come to mean. This student makes an uproar over all of this. She was trying to take some part of the identity of the Catholic community for personal gain, in a future career. She was trying to use a part of the package called St. Thomas, discarding the rest. The student body supporting her fail to reflect on the question, why a Catholic law school in the first place.
The mistake was accepting this applicant in the first place. She seemed to feel that one of the problems of the present society was over-population. Where the Catholic Church passed along teachings of a God who loved unconditionally, when an institution called upon its student to reflect upon their own relationship with this God, and then in its relationship with others, Planned Parenthood passed along the philosophy of conditional love, to those who were not ready to love unconditionally. And St. Thomas is being criticized for upholding its basic creed, in times with a most recent war when a government has infringed upon American ideals and basic constitutuional rights. I wished that government was as true to its ideals as St. Thomas.
MBG - I’m not surprised by their stance at all … all I am saying is that, when I visited UST a few months ago and asked specific questions about issues like this (freedom of thought, not being Catholic, etc.) the answer I got was vastly different than the decision in this case.
Granted, my belief that it would as such is one of the reasons why I chose to go to a different school, but my piont of representing yourself fairly remains. I don’t think they did to me, and I don’t think they do to many others with concerns or questions like mine.
mt,
Closed minded? You are right, be a whore and dispose of your baby. Its fun and convenient!
i am not a whore and i wouldn’t do that to a baby, but thanks for the name calling. so i am right you are closed minded!
I wasn’t name calling. Just making a general statement. Its a free for all these days. No accountability and morals. If thats open minded, you can have it!
Mike Potter: Seriously? What is wrong with you?
AJH - At UST you are free to think however you want and you are able to express that however you want. If you want to stand up in class and say that the Catholic teaching on abortion is stupid then go right ahead (many students did while I was there). You may get a good argument, but if it fits with the discussion of the day then you are free to do so.
She can practice whatever beliefs she wants and is free to express those beliefs. However, voicing opposition and getting credit for activities that are completely contradictory to the mission, policies and underlying beliefs of the institution are very, very different things.
Mike Potter,
Please, don’t make statements like that about ANYONE, on ANY side of ANY issue.
First off, attacking is not a good way to make good discussion flow, hence, politicians and the way they “debate” nowadays.
Secondly, it makes many others (often times who agree with what you are saying) cringe and tend to shy away, only to not be associated with the person who said the comment.
Thirdly, it’s just not nice.
Fourth, it’s neither fun nor convenient. I can guarantee you that over 90% of the women that have had abortions or that choose to have an abortion do not skipping into the clinic, trembling with excitement. They more than likely are trembling with fear, something that should be helped by others, in the hope that they may change their mind. Attacking them will just push them away even more. Helping them and showing that you do care for both the child and them, more than likely will bring them closer to you.
MBG - I appreicate the feedback. For me, however, welcoming all faith traditions to study and explore extends beyond the classroom. That’s why I think they are still misrepresenting themselves to potential students, and the community, with their current marketing.
I like how millions of Americans seem to feel they need to live their lives according to the musings of an 81 year old German guy who’s never been married and has spent almost his entire life surrounded by other unmarried guys. Think for yourselves people. Most of these guys drool at the sight of your young boys anyway. It’s ridiculous.
H-
You see, right there, that’s the problem, you didn’t READ what I wrote. I was interpreting a possible underlying basis for the Dean’s actions, I wasn’t even making an argument of my own. Even still, if I were to agree with the Dean on the grounds of the guilt by association, your democrat and republicans working together parallel is no where near the same type of comparison. They are quite obviously in a much different working environment with different basic minimum rules they need to adhere to.
Rock on Doctor of Law…….
AJH - I disagree, but… fair enough.
I agree with Mike that if the student accepts financial aid from the University, she is bound to their rules. The same argument applies to the University with respect to State funding. I have many problems with abortion, but it is legal.
I think there is a fundamental problem with many religious institutions being tax exempt. It is my understanding that generally the rationale for these institutions receiving tax exemption is that these same institutions contribute to the poor and needy in our communities. I believe that this truly happens, though I wonder if more could be done.
When a Religious Institution can write checks in the $100s of millions of dollars to settle law suits, sits on a priceless collection of Art and Literature, and willingly accepts Government funding throughout the U.S. and the World, it angers me.
Dear Josephine Marcotty :
Mores against killing people are not particularily religous. The secular US outlaws killing people.
First year biology student learn the definition of living beings: respiration, metabolism, elimiation etc. all things that apply to an amoeba. Roe v Wade actually discusses privacy not killing.
Human beings can identified by a DNA signature that would distinguish them from other life forms. If at the beginning of a procedure you have a repirating, metablising, being and at the end you do not. You killed it. If that bing has a human DNA signature that is murder.
John says God is love. I believe in God because I believe in love. I can’t prove either actually exists.
Catholic doctrine asks that you cooperate with God in reproduction.
Cooperating with God is not outdated, it is hard though. NFP or abstinance are the recommended methods.
We think that God gives us rules to make us happy. At times we think we know better than God. That is sin. If we recognize our break with God we can have reconciliation. We remain Catholic, but God knows if our relationship is strained or broken.
1 Cor 6:19 states that our bodies are temples of the holy spirit. In sexual sin a person sins against his own body according to Paul. We are to glorify God in our body.
We are all part of Christ’s body if we accept it. in sexual sin and abortion e sin against our own body. I may be the minority, but it matters to me how each of us conducts ourselves. I hope that you choose to report more kindly on my faith in the future.
To Tara: I hope you become an attorney with the integrity we expect from graduates of Catholic institutions.
Cling to God. Glorify God in your body-and ours.
BillF
Then tell your Congressmen/women that and change the federal statutes that allows this.
This private law school has done nothing wrong in a strict legal sense. That is what the focus should be here, rather than slippery slope arguments of morality/ethics/religion which has caused this law student’s problem to descend into a chaos of blog name calling and personal attacks.
Lynne, How many children do you have?
There are only two types of people in this blog. Those who want to keep murdering babies and those who want to stop them. Probably 50% on this blog have previously murdered their own baby or babies in cold blood or helped someone else to it. GOD HAVE MERCY ON YOUR BLOODY HEARTS AND SOULS!!
At least 66% of statistics are made up on the spot.
The University of St. Thomas is suffering from a terrible identity crisis. This and all of the other public relations f-ups in the past few years are a direct result of not knowing who they are or what they want to be.
St. Thomas gladly takes huge sums of money from conservative Catholics like Lee Anderson, Gerry Rauenhorst and John Morrison – guys who would gladly see Catholicism return to the early 1800s. Their money talks very loudly and the result is frequent stupid decisions like inviting Ann Coulter and rejecting Desmond Tutu, fretting about a trivial travel policy that allowed consenting adults to room together, and not vetting the commencement speech of that idiot Benjamin Kessler.
On the other hand, St. Thomas needs tuition dollars to pay for the over-building and over-reaching they’ve done in recent years. To make their admissions numbers (and budgets) they actively market to and recruit non-Catholics. Right now, more than half of the student body of St. Thomas is non-Catholic. They draw in non-Catholics with an effective message of social justice, happily take their money, and then trot out the doctrine of our former-Nazi-turned-pope when they feel like it.
You can’t have it both ways, St. Thomas. Make up your mind.
Thank you for the response Doctor of Law.
It may be that the school has done nothing wrong in the Strictly legal sense.
It appears that the Dean’s reason/justification for his decision is moral/ethical/religious though.
I also agree that one remedy for tax exemption is to work the political process to change federal statutes.
Nonetheless, I cannot understand what legitimate reason can be given for the Catholic Institution (world wide) having so much, yet not giving more. Why should it require legal action to prod a Religious Entity to follow its own mission?
MR,
Thanks for the much needed humor!
Yeah, we all out here murdering babies, roasting them with apples in their mouths, and enjoying them with a nice Chianti.
Lynne,
It may matter to you how each of us conducts ourselves, but the plain and simple fact of the matter is that what I do with my body is my business, not yours. And what you do with yours is your business, you will not hear from me what I think about it.
NFP as birth control doesn’t work for most people. As humans are sexual beings, abstinance is impractical. Abstinance education doesn’t work either, as recent studies have proven. It is irresponsible to breed countless children in this day and age. The planet cannot sustain the traditional Catholic approach, or any approach that favors rampant procreation.
I support Planned Parenthood. They helped me when I needed it. They have helped many people I know to plan their families responsibly.
Tara, if you’re reading this blog- volunteer there regardless of what decision your school makes about credit. PP as an organization is to be commended for the work they do in preventing unwanted pregnancy, testing and treatment of diseases, rape counseling, and a whole host of other vital services to low income people that would not otherwise have access to such services.
CMc better get rid of that porn collection.
There is no legal action attainable to prod a religious entity to follow its own mission since the religious entity interprets is mission.
To have a state or individual require their own subjective legal interpretation of a religious entity’s mission is simply wrong and unconstitutional.
Why? Because the state actor or individual actor by way of state (in a lawsuit) who be infringing on the freedom of religion, a fundamental right under the US Constitution.
Thus wrong.
I was reading along actually interested in people’s differing perspectives. Then I came across Simian’s attacks not on the topic at hand, but on everyone’s religious beliefs.
Simian, you seem to have lost the focus somewhere. So let me help you out:
1) You would make yourself look a lot more credible if: when you attack the grammar of others, make sure you also use correct grammar. Are the 3 distinct species of humans from: caucasian, african, and asian decent? Or descent? I’m just saying, it’s usually a good idea to make sure everything you write is as correct as possible before you criticize others’ grammar mistakes.
2) You accuse everybody who doesn’t agree with you of being closed-minded. You also accuse everybody who doesn’t agree with you of being hypocrites. And I suppose that the Constitution gives you the right to say that. I have to ask though: doesn’t assuming that everybody else is wrong just because they don’t agree with you and your beliefs (or lack thereof) make you just as closed minded and just as hypocritical?
3) This debate is not supposed to be about the existence or non-existence of God. If you don’t believe there’s a God, good for you. I do hope that your life is just as fulfilling without God, as the lives of most of the other readers (and believers) of this thread are with God. But, again, I reiterate, that does not matter in the context of this discussion. This discussion was supposed to be about whether or not UST was within its rights to deny the law student academic credit for serving an organization that, in MOST respects, is inherently against the teachings of the Catholic church. To answer that question, YES. UST, as a Catholic university, has every right to enforce policies that are in line with Catholic belief and doctrine. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to expect the student to respect and adhere to these policies where her education is concerned. Nobody is requiring her to agree with the policies, but it is fair to ask her to respect the basis for them, and to adhere to them where her CHOSEN education at a CATHOLIC university is concerned.
Similarly, if you attended UST or any other Catholic institution, Simian, it would be fair to expect that you would respect and understand the basis for the mission and policies in place, despite your more than obvious atheism. Again, it’s a difference between agreeing with the policies and respecting them, especially when the decision to attend said institution was the student’s choice and the student’s choice alone. Now, I’m sure you’re going to call me an idiot for even insinuating that you would EVER stoop to attend a Catholic (or any other religious) institution. Again…not the point! What is the point, you ask?
POINT: Student wants to do service with an organization that is fundamentally at odds with the Catholic church for academic credit at a Catholic university. Catholic university says if you want to do service with that organization on your own time, Great!, but you can’t have academic credit toward your J.D. with that. Was UST right to say that? YES!
“interprets its mission”
Henry — Are your comments experience based or assumption based? As a student of the law school for 3 years, and as a non-Catholic, I have never, even remotely, thought that the school is trotting out any form of Catholic thought. To be honest, this is the first time in 3 years I have noticed a Catholic backdrop to the school (other than the daily Mass and prayers I went into the school expecting). Frankly, I am proud of a religious institution that does not cave to the demands and pressures of a secular society, ie. Notre Dame.
CMc
I have one child, 2 stepkids and one adopted, 7 pregnancy losses.
Your question relates to the practical family scheduling issue that is separate from the morality of Roe v Wade and contraception. I agree it is a valid concern. PP does not represent a moral answer to the timing of your family.
Your Question is also irrelavant to the validity of my position since I will never have all the children I wanted.
Holy Cheese and Rice Batman!
There are some f-ing whackos out there!!!
$hit if dubya can rule the presidency on a heavily induced Christian basis (because that work out so well now didn’t it?) - what is to stop a lowly Catholic University from doing the same?
Anyone watch that Seinfeld episode where Elaine tried to date the moving guy - turned out he was a pro-life whack job. Ah, what a classic.
That’s an interesting story, but more newsworthy is the idea that someone down there at the Star Tribune thought this story was newsworthy at all. But before we all let out a collective sigh and write off our beleaguered, news-starved Twin Cities press for serving up manufactured controversies, let’s look at the issues.
I’m not Catholic, and I didn’t go to St. Thomas. But I’m biased just like the rest of you. To be fair, I’m starting from a different premise than those of you who think this story represents real journalism or an actual controversy. You start from the premise that St. Thomas University should be expected to dichotomize its decision and overlook the percentage of Planned Parenthood work that is condemned by the Catholic Church (performing abortions) in favor of focusing on the larger percentage of their work that is presumably lauded by the Catholic church (health testing and preventative health care). I simply disagree with this premise, which is probably why I find the story’s conclusion of “controversy” illogical.
Here’s a question that may illustrate a secondary flaw I see in the story: Would the St. Thomas story be newsworthy as a legitimate “controversy” if the school involved was not St. Thomas but rather Bethel University (or Northwestern College)? I suspect the latter schools would be aligned with St. Thomas on the issues, but, for some reason, I don’t think you’d find their position controversial or newsworthy. Perhaps it’s because you would not consider Bethel or Northwestern one of the “major Twin Cities universities.” Assuming that’s not a dispositive distinction, I think we’d simply presume that a student attending Northwestern College would be aware that it was a conservative school (if not before attending, then definitely within a week or two of starting classes). The same student would (or reasonably should) expect that the proposition of a school like Northwestern College giving course credit for volunteering at a Planned Parenthood clinic would be laughable. Similarly, a story suggesting some inherent controversy in Northwestern College’s decision to deny such course credit would be, in my opinion, ill-conceived, uncontroversial and out of touch.
But I understand the confusion the law student must feel. And it’s reasonable for her to feel confused, because, after all, it’s a confusing world out there in academia. For instance, Macalester College, a school with loose ties to the Presbyterian Church, reflects few of the ideals professed by that church, and is, so far as I can tell, the epitome of what it means to be a “liberal” or “academically free” private institution of higher learning. Perhaps it is in the name of academic freedom or promotion of this loosely defined “marketplace of ideas” that Hamline University Law School reflects little or no connection to the Methodist Church, the denomination from whence it apparently came. An early Harvard College brochure (circa 1643) described its purpose: “To advance Learning and perpetuate it to Posterity; dreading to leave an illiterate Ministry to the Churches.” (I’ll credit Wikipedia with that quote and defer to history books to prove me wrong.) But the pilgrims and puritans of Harvard College, or the minister who started it, are now ancient history, and I suspect that course credit may be given at Harvard for volunteerism at Planned Parenthood. And perhaps you’d be correct in concluding that Harvard’s denial of such credit might be controversial. So this confused law student may be onto something.
Maybe she’s right, maybe the “marketplace of ideas” over at St. Thomas hit a couple of quarters (or years) of negative growth (which I think is the textbook definition of an official “recession in the marketplace of ideas”). But I think the journalist’s obligation (your obligation) is to understand the distinctions that exist between the St. Thomases and the Macalesters of the academic world and to allow both schools the freedom to simply be who they are. That would be academic freedom. Granted, there are deadlines and such, but journalists need to understand a school’s origins and ideals before being critical simply for the sake of being critical.
What I think the story illustrates is that this law student should have done a little more research before she applied at St. Thomas. Therein lays her academic freedom. She was free to attend any law school that would admit her, and she was free to choose any school, public or private, based on her personal views and standards. But her attendance at St. Thomas is clearly a privilege, not a right. And when she signed up with a Catholic university, she should not profess disbelief when they act like one.
But should St. Thomas be different from more conservative schools? Why is their position controversial when it would be expected at a Bethel University or a Northwestern College? Is it because we expect “more” from St. Thomas? Is it because we want St. Thomas to focus less on its Catholic roots and more on a forward-thinking academic future? Perhaps we’re bothered by a private university with a huge endowment and academic success when those resources are provided only to those who can stomach the Catholic doctrines that accompany them. Maybe St. Thomas shouldn’t follow doctrines. Maybe they should be more like Harvard, with all its success and prestige (and a better library). Maybe St. Thomas shouldn’t stand up for the Catholic church so much.
But maybe Catholic universities should be entitled to act Catholic. Maybe we should expect to see priests and nuns walking around on campus. Maybe they should be allowed an ornate cathedral on the premises. Maybe they should be entitled to hang on the Pope’s every word. Maybe we should expect them to actually follow some of the doctrines outlined by the Vatican or to allow those doctrines to impact behavior (or which volunteer hours they count for course credit). Maybe when these schools do act like this, we shouldn’t find it controversial but predictable.
I think it’s axiomatic that the Catholic Church is entitled to take a position on abortion. Moreover, I think it’s equally reasonable to grant to the Catholic Church the religious freedom to stand up for some practices and to condemn or reject others. Applying these same principles to a Catholic university, it should be expected (by students and the public) that these universities might (or should) adhere to these same doctrines.
Which . . . brings us back around to our beloved Planned Parenthood. As for Planned Parenthood, I understand the position: they provide health services other than abortions. Maybe they’re not all bad. I get that. But it does not follow that a Catholic university should be expected to overlook Planned Parenthood’s controversial and divisive role in providing abortion services, simply because Planned Parenthood also provides some other services (which, in most respects, are also provided by hospitals, health clinics and crisis pregnancy centers). The elephant in the room (and the story) is not in the percentages, but the practices. If the Catholic Church takes a stand against abortion as a practice, then it’s reasonable for society (and students) to expect a Catholic university to do the same.
Anywho, it looks like someone needs to take a day or two off and come back to work ready to make the most of his/her second chance to give us real journalism and not a contrived story about a tempest in a tea kettle.
Johnnycash, you’re dead. Shut up.
Response to MT who is a grad of the law school.
Pornography, gambling, and prostitution (in Nevada) are all legal activities. Are you suggesting that UST should authorize volunteer hours for students who volunteer at any organizations offereing the above services?
Loreli:
Do you know anything about NFP? It is just as effecive as the pill…99% I’m assuming you have never tried it, so don’t make such a bold statement as it doesn’t work. And it is not just a catholic thing either… I know many people who practice it because it is healthier than taking a pill and they are not catholic. Medical doctors train people in 3rd world countries how to use it to prevent “rampant procreation” as you put it. People need to get the facts before making such general accusations.
It’s a private school, they get no public funds, they don’t need to follow the same rules as public schools do, and no one is forced to go there.
It is a highly respected University and a phenomenal school.
I went there, am not a catholic, and never once had catholic views pushed upon me.
so if she can complain about the rules of what UST sets for there students at a PRIVATE school, then why can’t a catholic teacher at a public school talk about catholic values in their classroom, without getting fired or disciplined
There’s a huge difference between complaining and having action taken. She can complain all she wants about what happened, but as numerous people have pointed out in this thread, St. Thomas is well within their rights and their standards for public service to say that Planned Parenthood doesn’t qualify.
Pat, because libtards are two faced.
I think there is a vast difference between this issue as relates to UST’s undergrad vs. UST’s law school that people are not acknowledging. Personally, I think it’s a story because it’s at the law school. I wouldn’t bat an eye if it happened in their undergrad program.
Pat, a Catholic teacher could complain all they want, and then I would have the same response as many have for the UST student in the article … go somewhere that allows you to practice your feelings if you’re that upset about it. You chose to work at a public school.
Lynne,
How many children YOU want is your own choice. Other people make different choices. I have a friend who was raped by a stranger while trying to enter her apartment building. She had an abortion. Not all embryos are conceived in love. You are trying to transfer your personal desire to have 10 children on to other people. The question of how many children you have is germaine, because you believe others should follow your belief system. Human beings are sexual beings. If people don’t want polygamist-sized families, they must use birth control. If you are against birth control, how do you purport to fit all of the products of sexual unions on the planet? Where would the trillions of children live? How would they be clothed and fed? Would if there is a 90% chance that a child will have a deadly genetic mutation, so a couple chooses to use birth control and adopt a child instead? It is simply not practical to eschew birth control and want to outlaw abortion.
Pat…because the first is constitutional and the latter is unconstitutional.
People here need to stick to the legal facts.
Matthew,
Well put! Excellent!
CMc - Sounds like your a spokesman for the Nazis.
Nick,
No, just capable of nuanced thought. Try it some time. Of course, your “brain” might explode.
As a Muslim, is is scary to think that just because one’s ethics/morals may not be in line with secular views, that one should change an institution’s identity in order to accomodate for non-believers.
I am not Catholic, yet I appreciate the freedom of religion in the US and believe that this law school’s decision to not allow credit for community service is correct.
CMc - Doesn’t matter what YOU want or think, or what I want or think or even what Society wants or thinks. God laid down the law. We either follow it or pay the price.
Doctor of Law,
It’s not just the legal facts. The St. Thomas Policy Handbook reads like their decision is totally consistent with their internal policies. The dean can choose what service counts toward the requirement, and he said that Planned Parenthood service does not. His decision is final. While I disagree personally with his decision, I highly doubt that he’ll change it, and the school doesn’t have to listen to anyone else about it.
It clearly matters to you what you think. And it is obvious that you are intolerant of others who don’t think the way you do. So, will my friend, who aborted the product of a drug-fueled rapist, “pay the price”?
Furthermore, Nick, would God be impressed with how you treat other people? Would he be pleased that you called me a Nazi? Is that christ-like behavior?
MSLY - My comments are based on experience. I was at the law school from the beginning. Opened the school, moved into the new building, sat through the first graduation. If you managed to get through three years without seeing the Catholicism at the school, I have to believe you weren’t really paying attention.
Did you have any classes with Visher or Collett? Did you ever talk to Sisk or Reid? Did you notice the big statue of St. Thomas More in the lobby?
I agree it’s admirable that St. Thomas is trying to stick by their guns and not stoop to the level of that failed institution Notre Dame. Maybe they just need to clarify things. I know from experience that the idea of Integrating Faith and Reason in the Search for Truth means different things to different people.
MR
There is not legal basis for the student to be challenging the Dean’s position. This is where people are getting confused. This religious institution can and have the right to make their own decisions. Like I have stated earlier, they have the RIGHT to interpret their own internal policies, or even change it as they please (internal policies are not laws nor are they enforceble contracts).
There is no legal issue here, however, what is happening here is that individuals on this blog are straying away from the real issue- “Can this law school do this legally?”
The simple answer is yes.
Now, I refuse to get into the moral/religious aspects of the issue because these are irrelevant. I will only analyze this from a legal viewpoint.
CMc two wrongs don’t make a right. As sad and tragic the event to your friend, she will still be held accountable for the abortion unless she repents and asks for God’s forgiveness. I didn’t make the rules and I don’t agree sometimes with everything God does, but it not up to me. We either follow His rules 100% or we pay the price. We can’t pick and choose what we like and don’t like regarding His word.
Jes says:
Actually a lot of women have problems with NFP because their cycles are so messed up. A flaw to attacking the pill is the fact that the pill is not just for BC anymore. It has a lot of health benefits. Has been found to help prevent cervical and/or ovarian and uterine cancers, is about the most effective and easiest way to deal with ovarian cysts, is most effect way to deal with all forms of PMS (without it I can’t function at least one day a month). As far as NFP goes…unless your cycle is extremely on, and you know your body really, really well, no, it is not even close to 99% effective. And what about the times that oh, someone is in the mood, and it’s not the right time. Condoms are condemned by the church too. And remember, women are also supposed to submit to the man if we go back to the Catholic doctrines that contain all this stuff.
Also, fun story on Catholic doctrine and abortion and such. I know someone that had a baby that was stillborn. When going to have a priest bury it, there was a big fight and they ended up having to bury under a different church because the priest said since the child had never beathed outside the womb it was not able to be buried in a Catholic cemetary (and she had just converted to Catholicism for her husband). This was in the 60s. So how can the church on one had call abortion murder, but on the other say a baby that had not breathed outside the woman not a human capable of being buried in a Catholic cemetary.
It’s nice that they don’t have to answer to the general public. It is nice to see that St. Thomas has made a decision that is right to the University rather than to public popularity, public schools wouldn’t do something like that.
Well said Lynne.
I am sure many of you will laugh and point your fingers at the 30 year old virign, but abstinence and NFP are possible and i am an example of that, having gotten married last year at the age of 29 and still a virign, and so was my wife. We have control over our sexual urges, we are not animals.
Andy had a post that said Jesus helped the sinners of all kinds and that means the Catholic church should find away to work with PP. I cannot disagree more. PP does not want to stop doing abortions, i am unsure how having the Catholic Church who is 100% against abortions, work with an organization that has no interest in stopping aborting babies is a good idea. I would be happy to hear a reason.
And these stats are getting ridiculous without sources. Thrown out stats can be used to prove anything, 64% of Americans over the age of 18 know that.
Nick, Your hateful invective throughout this entire thread is not part of “God’s rules”, so, presumably, you too will pay the price for not following his word.
CMc - Like I said earlier. If I say something out of line that God doesn’t like, trust me, he will deal with me. It wouldn’t be the first time I spoke from passion rather than His word. Though I try to be rational and polite, the sinful nature sometimes takes over. There are a few things I said on here that I shouldn’t have.
lorelie,
My note reflects my reading of 1 Corintians. Your conduct may not be my business, but it does affect me if you accept that you are part of the body of Christ.
CMc
please check the fact finder to suppport your claim about the population. In 2007 I heard a mathematician calculat that the world population could all fit inside Texas if you count 1 square yard per person.
I detest math or I would do it myself. My note was to the author of the article since I agree with Matthew. this article is non news promoting misunderstanding and contempt for Catholics.
I believe the author is intolerant of Catholics and that is not acceptable in this country.
MSLY, I am personally acquainted with several UST law grads and I find Henry Drummond’s statement wholly accurate. I would add, it’s not just well-heeled conservative donors who are pulling UST in a more conservative direction, it’s the Diocese itself as well.
Mr. Drummond is absolutely right that the UST leadership is trying to have it both ways. Sure, UST is free to refashion itself as a less secular institution. However, if they want to do that they should be prepared to see the end, if not an outright reversal, of their phenomenal rate of growth. There are a lot of people in the UST leadership who don’t want to see the latter happen, ergo the tension.
Why do you think UST opened a law school in the first place? For the revenue. They have already saturated the local job market with MBAs, so they need something to keep their Minneapolis campus growing. Several hundred new students paying $28,000/year is just the ticket. That said, if UST wants to turn itself into Ave Maria School of Law there is a very, very limited market for that sort of thing around here.
So yeah, UST definitely needs to make up its mind. It can be a stridently sectarian instituition. It can enroll 50% non-Catholics, and churn out MBAs and JDs by the hundreds. But it can’t do both.
Henry — I have had every professor you named except Collete; However, I have listened to her give lectures. The only time I could ever pick up on a Catholic thought coming from those professors was at the beginning of class in their prayer. After the prayer was said, the class moved in a secular way with comments from all sides being accepted and discussed.
I had no reason to pay attention to the level of Catholic thought around me since I decided to attent a Catholic institution. Nevertheless, even with attending this institution, the Catholic thought pervading the school was never blatent nor forced upon me. I have had many discussions with many non-Catholics who have come to the same conclusion as myself — Catholic thought is not pushed upon anyone. By in large, every student at the school is comfortable with the level of religion in our daily lives. Before this incident, I have never heard one student claim the regigious ideals of the school are overpowering and/or hard to handle.
It’s pretty pitiful that in the present time in which everyone preaches tolerance that a ridiculous extremist sect (catholics) and not just St. Thomas but all people who believe in the outdated in humane beliefs can restrain a student who’s main goal is to learn the right to volunteer at a community oriented establishment. Get over yourselves and look at the world you live in now and not the make believe world you may or may not be going to in the after life. You live on Earth keep you ideas earthbound
Andrew, You’re an idiot.
Lynne,
Regarding the feasability of the entire world’s population living in Texas: “This is one of the worst excuses for overpopulation
ever invented, yet it keeps appearing in cornucopian rhetoric. Its origin would be interesting to trace;
it couldn’t have come from a demographer. Such simplistic calculations ignore the vast amounts of water, land and energy required for modern life. They also ignore other species’ need for shrinking
habitat. People have dissected the landscape, leaving nature in broken pockets cut off by development.
People also gravitate to the most livable areas, which further restricts land-use scenarios. For life to be sustainable, ecosystems must remain quite large in relation to densely populated zones. Calculations
vary, but the “ecological footprint” of the average American is said to exceed 5 acres. For 300 million
people (as of late 2006) this equates to 1,500,000,000 acres (about 1,500 x 1,500 miles) or 80% of total U.S. land acreage. If you tried to fit
6.6 billion people (2006 world population) in Texas, there would be about 25,000 per square mile over the
entire State. That’s about 7 times as dense as the Dallas metro area. Texas can’t even sustain its actual population without imports; true of most modern nations.
No I’m a realist
See, Nick, there you go again, calling Andrew an idiot.
Andrew-
Catholics are extremists? Lol…sounds like you SHOULD be tolerant of others too.
By the way I hope heaven will be great for you and all the other wonderful CHRISTIANS out there while me and the billions of other non christens are rotting away in hell.. makes a whole lot of sense
Repost of my earlier comment, I think it is pertinent to our current discussion:
I am a current 3L at St. Thomas Law and found Dean Menglers decision to be completely valid. Not only am I a current law student, but I am also a non-Catholic. I decided to attend the school knowing it was a Catholic institution. I knew they would hold Mass everyday in the school Chapel, I also knew some professors would pray before each class. To think that a Catholic school will not abide by their Catholic roots is ignorant and self-righteous. It is time for people to understand that consequences come with decisions, if you can not accept the consequences of attending a religious institution, then please do us all a favor and attend a secular institution. There are still some parts of this world that will not compromise their beliefs to conform to individual thoughts and actions. I am extremely honored and proud to see that my Law School stuck by its beliefs even in the face of such adversity. That is called courage.
NB, St. Thomas does have a decision to make, it can either crack under the preasure and stray from its mission as a law school, or it can be courgeous and stand in front of the critism for what it believes in. I am pretty sure that people will respect the latter more, which will in turn continue to propell it’s name, attendence and reputation higher.
we can Muslims extremists on a daily if not hourly basis that is just as ridiculous as my comment calling a catholic an extremist right?
Andrew is an idiot if he is calling Catholics extremists.
St Thomas Law seems to selectively choose which “Catholic principles” to stand on. Remember, they hired a professor that advised the president that torture was okay.
I’m pretty sure most Catholics would say torture is not one of the principles they stand for.
From the Minnesota Daily:
http://www.mndaily.com/articles/2006/11/28/70055
And they certainly play both sides — they are more than happy to pander to whoever is paying the bills, be it donations from conservative Catholics or pro-choice champions like Ciresi. And when it comes to recruiting students, they are good at telling prospective students what they want to hear and walk all over that later. And once you are in law school, it’s hard to quit over these issues. Transfering is not so easy.
Follow the money, man.
Not all Muslims are extremists, retard. Only a very few.
Not all Muslims are extremists, retard. Only a very few. Your generalization is simply laughable.
Andrew it doesn’t have to make sense to you, only to God.
CMc, if you think the world is too populated, you can alway exit and free up some room, maybe take Android with you.
They are still referred to as extremists… and as a grouped they are easily characterised by this trait
Cmc
Thanks for your excellant work.
The entire world population could fit comfortably in the United States.
The world in not overpopulated and I am confidant that if everyone did God’s will there would be no poverty or similiar economic imbalances.
The upcoming recession should help us all reduce our footprint.
May the Lord bless you and keep you,
May He shine His face upon you and
Give you peace.
I have one child and am on birth control. That’s how I do my part. I’ve spent enough energy trying to reason with sycophants. Buh-bye.
Keep on that birth control Cmc if it stops more liberals like you from entering this world.
Which god’s will I guess i’ll choose from a bag with 1000’s of folded up names and hope I choose the right one or I could focus my attention on humanitarian causes and forget it all the religion b.s.
Jinx,
Clarification on your inaccuracy. The professor you are talking about never advised the president that torture was ok. He advised the the Geneva Conventions did not apply to terrorists due to them lacking the elements of being considered an enemy soldier. Thus, on a legal basis, they were not afforded the same status as a normal soldier.
Have you ever read the memo? The torture methods that you are pointing to is a Executive Administration decision that a few decided upon, not what this professor decided upon or even wrote on. The actual “torture memo” was written later by a different Justice Department attorney who is now a federal judge.
Please be sure of facts before you state them.
The entire world population could technically live inside the United States, but there wouldn’t be enough food or water, there’d be rampant, deadly disease, and people would be destroying one another. I’d rather have people use condoms.
Is Doctor of Law actually Prof Delahunty?
Jinx,
You are completely wrong on the “torture” issue. And the fact that you cite the Minnesota Daily shows you don’t understand the issue. The professor in question, who happens to be a good friend of mine, did not advise the President that “torture” is okay. He advised the President that the Geneva conventions do not apply to gitmo detainees.
Many legal scholars, including 4 Supreme Court Justices agree with the professor’s analysis.
But again, I would expect nothing less from our liberal media.
Boogeyman, it doesn’t matter what you want for the world, only what God wants. Get over it.
Jinx-
From the article you posted yourself, this shows that the professor DID NOT promote torture. Again, I advise that you actually go read the memo.
“Only by causing great suffering or serious bodily injury to POWs, killing or torturing them, depriving them of access to a fair trial, or forcing them to serve in the Armed Forces, could the United States actually commit a grave breach,” the memo stated.
Jinx,
No. I am not Professor Delahunty.
CMc
I am an old woman now, I know that the only thing that has any value in the end are the children. Love the ones you are lucky enough to have.
Boogeyman,
Can you support your contentsion that there would by rampant disease and shortages if everyone lived in America?
I love America. If we had the will to change the world in a positive way I know we could do it. Theporblem is in our will.
God’s will be done, not ours.
K - if you’re still there, good catch on the type-o, but the grammar was still correct. So please, before telling me to check my grammar you should realize that it was a spelling error, not a grammatical error.
Second, with regard to your “Point.” My point is exactly this: If it wasn’t for religion in the first place, we wouldn’t be having this argument about whether a student could volunteer at PP. Now I know this is going to be difficult, but follow along. You see if there was no religion, then there would be no religious institutions and therefore no backward ideology or policy preventing this young gal from pursuing her desired volunteering activity. Get it??? Good.
To CMc - You rock! Keep up the strong fight.
Simian, put down the crack pipe.
You first.
Matthew’s post was brilliant. Therefore it should be posted again. Well put, Matthew. Thank you for taking the time to add your insight.
hat’s an interesting story, but more newsworthy is the idea that someone down there at the Star Tribune thought this story was newsworthy at all. But before we all let out a collective sigh and write off our beleaguered, news-starved Twin Cities press for serving up manufactured controversies, let’s look at the issues.
I’m not Catholic, and I didn’t go to St. Thomas. But I’m biased just like the rest of you. To be fair, I’m starting from a different premise than those of you who think this story represents real journalism or an actual controversy. You start from the premise that St. Thomas University should be expected to dichotomize its decision and overlook the percentage of Planned Parenthood work that is condemned by the Catholic Church (performing abortions) in favor of focusing on the larger percentage of their work that is presumably lauded by the Catholic church (health testing and preventative health care). I simply disagree with this premise, which is probably why I find the story’s conclusion of “controversy” illogical.
Here’s a question that may illustrate a secondary flaw I see in the story: Would the St. Thomas story be newsworthy as a legitimate “controversy” if the school involved was not St. Thomas but rather Bethel University (or Northwestern College)? I suspect the latter schools would be aligned with St. Thomas on the issues, but, for some reason, I don’t think you’d find their position controversial or newsworthy. Perhaps it’s because you would not consider Bethel or Northwestern one of the “major Twin Cities universities.” Assuming that’s not a dispositive distinction, I think we’d simply presume that a student attending Northwestern College would be aware that it was a conservative school (if not before attending, then definitely within a week or two of starting classes). The same student would (or reasonably should) expect that the proposition of a school like Northwestern College giving course credit for volunteering at a Planned Parenthood clinic would be laughable. Similarly, a story suggesting some inherent controversy in Northwestern College’s decision to deny such course credit would be, in my opinion, ill-conceived, uncontroversial and out of touch.
But I understand the confusion the law student must feel. And it’s reasonable for her to feel confused, because, after all, it’s a confusing world out there in academia. For instance, Macalester College, a school with loose ties to the Presbyterian Church, reflects few of the ideals professed by that church, and is, so far as I can tell, the epitome of what it means to be a “liberal” or “academically free” private institution of higher learning. Perhaps it is in the name of academic freedom or promotion of this loosely defined “marketplace of ideas” that Hamline University Law School reflects little or no connection to the Methodist Church, the denomination from whence it apparently came. An early Harvard College brochure (circa 1643) described its purpose: “To advance Learning and perpetuate it to Posterity; dreading to leave an illiterate Ministry to the Churches.” (I’ll credit Wikipedia with that quote and defer to history books to prove me wrong.) But the pilgrims and puritans of Harvard College, or the minister who started it, are now ancient history, and I suspect that course credit may be given at Harvard for volunteerism at Planned Parenthood. And perhaps you’d be correct in concluding that Harvard’s denial of such credit might be controversial. So this confused law student may be onto something.
Maybe she’s right, maybe the “marketplace of ideas” over at St. Thomas hit a couple of quarters (or years) of negative growth (which I think is the textbook definition of an official “recession in the marketplace of ideas”). But I think the journalist’s obligation (your obligation) is to understand the distinctions that exist between the St. Thomases and the Macalesters of the academic world and to allow both schools the freedom to simply be who they are. That would be academic freedom. Granted, there are deadlines and such, but journalists need to understand a school’s origins and ideals before being critical simply for the sake of being critical.
What I think the story illustrates is that this law student should have done a little more research before she applied at St. Thomas. Therein lays her academic freedom. She was free to attend any law school that would admit her, and she was free to choose any school, public or private, based on her personal views and standards. But her attendance at St. Thomas is clearly a privilege, not a right. And when she signed up with a Catholic university, she should not profess disbelief when they act like one.
But should St. Thomas be different from more conservative schools? Why is their position controversial when it would be expected at a Bethel University or a Northwestern College? Is it because we expect “more” from St. Thomas? Is it because we want St. Thomas to focus less on its Catholic roots and more on a forward-thinking academic future? Perhaps we’re bothered by a private university with a huge endowment and academic success when those resources are provided only to those who can stomach the Catholic doctrines that accompany them. Maybe St. Thomas shouldn’t follow doctrines. Maybe they should be more like Harvard, with all its success and prestige (and a better library). Maybe St. Thomas shouldn’t stand up for the Catholic church so much.
But maybe Catholic universities should be entitled to act Catholic. Maybe we should expect to see priests and nuns walking around on campus. Maybe they should be allowed an ornate cathedral on the premises. Maybe they should be entitled to hang on the Pope’s every word. Maybe we should expect them to actually follow some of the doctrines outlined by the Vatican or to allow those doctrines to impact behavior (or which volunteer hours they count for course credit). Maybe when these schools do act like this, we shouldn’t find it controversial but predictable.
I think it’s axiomatic that the Catholic Church is entitled to take a position on abortion. Moreover, I think it’s equally reasonable to grant to the Catholic Church the religious freedom to stand up for some practices and to condemn or reject others. Applying these same principles to a Catholic university, it should be expected (by students and the public) that these universities might (or should) adhere to these same doctrines.
Which . . . brings us back around to our beloved Planned Parenthood. As for Planned Parenthood, I understand the position: they provide health services other than abortions. Maybe they’re not all bad. I get that. But it does not follow that a Catholic university should be expected to overlook Planned Parenthood’s controversial and divisive role in providing abortion services, simply because Planned Parenthood also provides some other services (which, in most respects, are also provided by hospitals, health clinics and crisis pregnancy centers). The elephant in the room (and the story) is not in the percentages, but the practices. If the Catholic Church takes a stand against abortion as a practice, then it’s reasonable for society (and students) to expect a Catholic university to do the same.
Anywho, it looks like someone needs to take a day or two off and come back to work ready to make the most of his/her second chance to give us real journalism and not a contrived story about a tempest in a tea kettle.
I prayed for you… You can run, but not hide from God.
Oh, what Nick, did I hurt your feelings? Or is it just taking you a really long time to come up with a witty comeback. Maybe you’re waiting for god to tell you what to say. You’ll be waiting a REALLY long time.
Well thank goodness then, that there is no god. I won’t need to hide.
Actually Simian, I am having a great week! All my dreams are coming true. Plenty of money in the bank, great health… Life is good in Christ!
Seriously, you’re really slow. C’mon, I’m getting bored.
I also blessed you Simian. Your life will never be the same.
Slow because I am eating dinner and typing… Man, these ribs are good…
Funny you should say that. I too have more than adequate money in the bank and am in the best shape and health in my life. Life is GREAT without a faulty belief in a god.
You’re boring and unoriginal. See ya.
You’re life is good because God has chosen to bless you through your ignornace hoping one day you will see the light.
Resist and the devil will flee from you Simian. You can do it!!!
Jesus… We won the board. Simian AKA Satan has left the blog. LOL
Ms Borton had better get used to a few rules in life. I’m not sure if even the ACLU would let you come to work in a clowns costume. St. Thomas has not said she can not volunteer at PP just that it would not satisfy her community service. They have that right. I wonder what they would say about a volunteering at a Luthern social service agency. Again they have that right. Whether it’s school or business you can’t have the inmates running the instution.
Really can we please get rid of the religuous side of all of this and look at the humanitarian side. This student is trying to further herself by VOLUNTEERING at a Community organization. Lets forget this outdated ridiculous moral “wrongs” that this corrupt sexually abusive catholic church is telling us. and lets leave the cruch of religion at the front door and focus on how we as people can live here on earth as best we can with each other without having to fallow some doctorine. Common sense should be THE religion not this hypocracy of the catholic church
“Volunteering at a community organization” - THAT PROMOTES MURDER!!
Wow, I can’t believe how much free time some of you have…
No rest in fighting evil…
I object to the Really guys? characterization of the Catholic church.
No group has the corner on morally objectionable behavior.
Most of us have never abused anyone in our entire lives, yet we are labeled as currupt and sexually abusive.
Moral behavior does not become outdated.
Moral behavior is humanitarian behavior.
Please clarify your statement and identify anyone you can think of that is not a hypocrite
You don’t have to have the cruch of a religious org. to conduct moral behavior, form your own ideas… live in the present not the future. You live here not in the so called heaven so act upon that and not as all other selfish christians due in there quest to the so called afterlife.
From reading the posts it is apparant that most of you have not read the Dean’s Open Letter nor the Students Response. The disagreement within the school is not about abortion per se. It is about the fact that UST-Law is a NEW LAW school. The concern surrounds how our school and its graduates will be percieved by the greater law community. There is also a disconnect between the way the school advertises itself to prospective students and the way it acts in fact. If UST-Law wants to be an orthodox institution it has that right. But students have the right to know this before accepting admission to the school.
Really guys?, you must live a sad, pathetic, hopeless life knowing that you will not have an afterlife and only will become worm food.
Thanks for pointing out the links. I read the strib article and thought it would be properly reported. The main issues were not actually mentioned in the article Ms Marcotty.
Really guys? Being part of a religious organization does not excuse you from thinking or make moral decisions easier.
If you invent your own value structure why concern yourself with other people’s dignity at all.
I supportthe University. The woman is free to do whatever she pleases. The university will not give credit to her work at Planned Parenthood because Planned Parenthood stands against what the University(and the Catholic Church) is committed to. As for the comment that criticizes the church and the university, I recommend that the writers look at the work of Catholic Charities and all the other aid programs and support programs that the church supports. MORE than Planned Parenthood for that matter.
I, for one, am so glad to see a college stand up for what they believe and what they teach. It means more when teachings are backed by action.
If the University of Minnesota was making decisions based on Catholic doctrine, then I could understand all the uproar, but St. Thomas is a Catholic School. They have every right to choose what they do and don’t want to support, and the student has every right to choose to pay her tuition to a different school.
I’m not dead. Though I see dead people.
I still want those card carrying Catholics to tell me why they can support abortion yet still be a Catholic???
I also still want someone to tell me why there are so many Catholics actively giving the church the one-finger salute by using birth control.
I guess Saturday mass and a bit of coinage in the coffer make it all good.
Bunch of hippocrates to say the least.
Man - there must be an echo in here???
Whatever happened to separation of church and state? If the University of St. Thomas wants to impose religious views on its students (and employees, too, as far as that goes), then it should not receive any federal or state funds for anything.
How about not attending a Catholic school if you’re going to disagree with its doctrine? Or maybe it was the only place she could get into law school?
Hannah,
Not sure if you missed it the 8,000 times it’s been mentioned, but St. Thomas is a PRIVATE CATHOLIC school. Frankly, it can set whatever rules and regulations it wants.
Enjoyed some of the thoughtful articulate comments while cringing at others. The fact is when it comes to human sexuality, people are pretty much locked-in to thinking that includes faith-related (including atheism)perspectives. I personally commend the law student’s rationale (compassion, public health), but I can understand that a Roman Catholic school will have other considerations that will or will not conflict with someone’s personal agenda. The law school dean is within his rights (though he may not be right) as a representative of a private Roman Catholic school.
Is Planned Parenthood willing to pay people to work at Right to Life? Why then should St. Thomas give credit for someone working at Planned Parenthood? It is really much the same thing.
Or, to put it another way. We would not expect Howard University to give credit to students volunteering for the KKK, why would we expect a Catholic university to give credit to someone volunteering at Planned Parenthood.
What people don’t want to accept is that Planned Parenthood is fundamentally at odds with Catholic teaching — at least from the Catholic view — and that is all that matters.
I have two problems with the view UST has. My first issue is consistency. What do they do to students who don’t go to church weekly? How about ROTC students, how can they support this? The first thing they do after graduating is get trained to kill living people. My second issue is the teachings they choose to follow. Catholic doctrine should follow Jesus’ teachings. He taught us to show compassion for everyone—the leper, the tax collector, the prostitute. Ms. Borton nor UST need not to support abortion to show compassion for those that have made bad decisions in the past. She isn’t even trying to work in the abortion area. Let her show compassion towards others who have been led astray for she is living the teachings of Jesus as he did himself.
I agree with the decision to not allow Tara to volunteer at Planned Parenthood. She can find other venues to do her research in STD/STI’s. And also, if this was her one true cause, PP really isnt the most advantagous of places to do this. So I’m wondering what her real motive is. And as for STU imposing their “Catholic Doctrine”…what other doctrine would they be using but the Catholic one. Its a Catholic University, Tara knew that going in, she knew the rules and what was going to be taught to her. Why the surprise?
I agree with the school’s decision even though I am a former Planned Parenthood volunteer myself. At a public university, I would expect that she would be able to get credit for this work, but at a Catholic University? As Emily says, there are plenty of other places where she can work with STD’s and contraception: for example, public health clinics. When she graduates, she can get a job with Planned Parenthood or NARAL and do whatever she wants to.
I laugh at churchy people. So serious at religious stuff. This is part of everyday life, where people choose what they do with their bodies. No amount of religion should dictate that.
For an example, If I wanted to drink milk, and my religion dictated that I cannot touch food related to cows, is that a personal choice, or a forced choice of relgion? hmm. just an example.
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