A closer look at Boston’s offers for Santana
Posted on December 4th, 2007 – 11:18 AMBy Joe Christensen
The Johan Santana situation seems very fluid right now in Nashville. I wouldn’t rule out the Yankees, but most of the buzz is centered on the Red Sox.
From the Boston Herald blog:
The Red Sox and Twins will resume “serious negotiations’’ later this morning as they close in on a blockbuster deal that would bring ace Johan Santana to the Red Sox, according to a baseball source involved in the negotiations.
The package of players the Twins receive is still in flux and there are two packages under discussion, with still varying mixes of players in each. The first is left-hander Jon Lester and center fielder Coco Crisp, the other is headed by center field prospect Jacoby Ellsbury.
The Red Sox have successfully held the line on not including Ellsbury in a package with either Lester or Clay Buccholz, their other top starter.
The names, in some combo, minus one or two, include starter Justin Masterson and shortstop Jed Lowrie.
So it sounds like it’s either a 4-for-1 deal: Lester, Crisp, Masterson and Lowrie. Or a 3-for-1 deal: Ellsbury, Masterson, Lowrie.
For a closer look at these players, check out SoxProspects.com, which ranks Boston’s top prospects as following:
1. Clay Buchholz
2. Jacoby Ellsbury
3. Justin Masterson
4. Jed Lowrie
Note, Lester is not on that list, as he is now entrenched in the big leagues and pitched the Red Sox to a win in Game 4 of the World Series. Since you’ve heard about the rest, here are thumbnails on Lowrie and Masterson:
Jed Lowrie
Pos: SS
Level: Class AAA
Age: 23 (turns 24 on April 17)
Height: 6-0
Drafted: First round, 2005, out of Stanford
Honors: He was named Boston’s 2007 minor-league offensive player of the year.
Notable: He batted just .163 in the recently completed Arizona Fall League, but otherwise, he has been a good hitting prospect with 47 doubles last season. He spent most of 2007 at Class AA, batting .297 (with a .410 on-base percentage, .501 slugging percentage, .911 on-base-plus-slugging percentage). In 40 games at Class AAA Pawtucket, he batted .300 with a .356 OBP, .506 SLG, and .862 OPS. He is seen as an intelligent shortstop, with average range, a strong arm that needs work on his accuracy. The web site sees a comparison to Carlos Guillen.
Justin Masterson
Pos: RHP
Level: Class AA
Age: 22 (turns 23 on March 22)
Height: 6-6
Drafted: 2006 second rounder out of San Diego State
Notable: He dominated the Cape Cod League in 2005. He throws a heavy sinker, 84-94 mph, and draws comparisons to Derek Lowe. He split last season between Class A and Class AA, going 12-8 with a 4.33 ERA in 27 starts. He pitched 153 2/3 innings with a 115-to-40 strikeout to walk ratio. He also gave up 152 hits, a high ratio which is not uncommon for sinkerballers.
MY TAKE
None of these Boston prospects, including Ellsbury, has the superstar potential of the Yankees’ Phil Hughes, in my opinion. I thought the Twins were on the right track asking for Hughes, Melky Cabrera and one more top prospect.
At first glance, the Boston packages seem to be more about quantity than quality. Not saying the Red Sox prospects aren’t quality. They are, but the packages don’t have the marquee star of the Yankees’ deals, they just fill more needs for the Twins.
I need to do more research, but Crisp or Ellsbury steps right in and plays center field for the Twins next year, batting leadoff. Ellsbury has the higher upside, obviously, but Crisp was a good player for Cleveland in 2005 who could just need a change of scenery.
Lowrie looks like he could be ready to take over shortstop duties by midseason. Masterson sounds like he could be ready to pitch in the big leagues by late 2008 or early 2009, and when he gets there, he should be good.
Lester would step right into the Twins’ rotation, replacing Santana. I think he’s a potential All-Star eventually, but not with the same ceiling as Hughes or Buchholz.
216 Responses to "A closer look at Boston’s offers for Santana"
First.
Yes… always wanted to do that.
Dang Yankees, I can’t believe you are going to let a minor league outfielder get in the way of Johan friggin Santana.
Hughes, Melky, and Jackson. Sounds good to me.
I’d be excited for Lowrie but it looks like he is destined to move to second base meaning a double play combo of Lowrie/Punto or Lowrie/Harris which isn’t too impressive
Take the 3 for 1!
I really like this trade. Justin Masterson sounds Silva like. If that is the case, we could get a 1-2 (Lester) out of this trade, a 3-4 starter(Masterson), a starting SS and CF this year.
Very Nice.
well said matt.
If NYY wants to hold onto a minor league OF than they must not be too high on Cabrera.
Just say “No” to Coco.
I think we need to some how get Lester and Ellsbury together in a deal.
Why trade for Lester and Crisp when Hughes and Cabrera both have higher ceilings? If Boston won’t package Lester or Buchholz with Ellsbury, it’s time to call the Yankees.
the whole ‘letting a minor leaguer get in the way of a deal’ is a bad argument. It’s a slippery slope. The Twins could receive any offer for Johan, add a top prospect and counter-offer and, by definition according to this flawed argument, if the team declined, they’d be ‘letting a minor leaguer get in the way’? Not really. They’re willing to make a certain deal.
Assign numerical ratings to players in a deal. the Yanks are willing to offer a cumulative 95 for Johan’s 99, we’ll say (this is all completely arbitrary), then the Twins counter-offer with an added prospect, making the deal, to the Yanks, a 130 for 99 and they dont want to do it.
Whatever, the point is teams set price points and thats that. A minor leaguer is not getting in the way of any deal.
Any trade involving Coco Crisp should not be taken seriously. That guy is a joke.
You are trading the best pitcher in baseball for a No. 2/3 starter, an average CF, and two prospects that have yet to prove anything in the big leagues. The 3-1 deal scares me too; giving up Garza and Santana with no proven pitching help coming back is a bit risky.
in Boston we would prefer the 4 for 1 deal, but either will do for the services of Johan Santana, hopefully this deal is done by the end of the day.
Screw Boston and New York, and let’s get the Dodgers back into the mix. That Kemp-LaRoche-Kershaw rumor was by far the best I’ve heard to date.
My question is how do Lowrie and Masterson compare to Jackson/Horne/Tabata/Kennedy. I think Crips and Cabrera is a push, Crisp is better now and has pretty good trade value. Cabrera is cheaper. Hughes is better than Lester, by a bit I assume. So, if Lowrie and Masterson are considered better than Jackson and Horne, then I like the deal. If not, then it is tough, but if there is nothing else, I would take this over 2 draft picks or winning 85 games with Santana.
The Yankees are out of it, Santana is going to the Sox
Lester is a health question mark and not as great a prospect as Hughes. Ellsbury is classes better than Cabrera and will fill 2 holes (CF and lead off hitter). With Ellsbury on board, the Twins would be set from 1-6 in the batting order Ellsbury/Young/Mauer/Cuddy/Morneau/Kubel and potentially go for a 3B (Lamb?) via free agency or let Buscher/Harris/Lowrie/Casilla/Punto battle it for the IF and 7-9 spots. I feel that, even with Ellsbury on board, they need another plus bat…
The Twins right now have a surplus of both potential starters (Liriano/Bonser/Blackburn/Slowley/Baker/Perkins/Duesberg)
and relievers; and Lester would not really add much… Hughes is a different story, but the Yankees trade does not address other needs
I’m a Yankee fan—–and I’m praying that we’ve truly dropped out of the running. I don’t want to trade Hughes AT ALL!
I wouldn’t discount this as a bit of smoke and mirrors that’s meant to provoke the Yankees to cave in on the offer they’ve supposedly walked away from.
They waited for A-Rod to get serious interest from other teams in FA before bringing him back, this may be a similar tactic.
there is a guy named Duesberg? lol
Love to see the 4-1 deal. I am a AA ticket holder and the Twins would be getting some outstanding talent that WILL make it to the pros in Masterson and Lowrie. There is no downside to this deal unless you want Santana just to play out the year and you like a couple minor league picks…
There’s no way I can see the Yanks letting the Sox get Santana. Hanky Panky will panic and here comes Hughes/Cabrera/Kennedy!
“The Twins right now have a surplus of both potential starters (Liriano/Bonser/Blackburn/Slowley/Baker/Perkins/Duesberg)
and relievers; and Lester would not really add much… Hughes is a different story, but the Yankees trade does not address other needs”
That’s the thing, do you think we can truly count on someone like Boof or Liriano to contribute next year? They’re BOTH big question marks.
“Love to see the 4-1 deal. I am a AA ticket holder and the Twins would be getting some outstanding talent that WILL make it to the pros in Masterson and Lowrie. There is no downside to this deal unless you want Santana just to play out the year and you like a couple minor league picks…”
That’s the thing though, Mike. There are some people here that are advocating that very premise.
Lowrie, Ellsbury, plus 1
NOT CRISP, NOT LESTER
Todd, we are not advocating losing him for draft picks, we are advocating signing him long term
i know you thi nk thats non reality, but I think htere are still chances for that
even so, I think we all agree not to let him go for draft choices, but even if we dont trade him this week, the winter is long
Matt, what you posted is a rumor like anything else is a rumor
Crisp - CF
Harris - 2B
Mauer - C
Young - LF
Morneau - 1B
Cuddyer - RF
Kubel - DH
Lowrie - SS
?????? - 3B
Liriano, Lester, Baker, Boof, Slowey
Kev: I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. I think the odds of signing Santana NOW are pretty slim.
To GA: there is no top 50 or top 100 out as far as I know, but all of those guys are considered 4 star prospects
I like the 3-1 deal much, much better. Casey got it right regarding the 4-1 deal: You are trading the best pitcher in baseball for a No. 2/3 starter, an average CF, and two prospects that have yet to prove anything in the big leagues.
That’s risky.
What it comes down to is
Ellsbury>Crisp+Lester. Ellsbury would fill a gaping hole in the leadoff spot. He would bring speed and defense and a much higher (and cheaper) ceiling. Pitching still needs some work but this will hardly be the last deal of the offseason. We need to take the package with the best player available, and that’s Ellsbury.
TA how can you write on both blogs? im trying to but im also trying to refresh 5 websites at a time :S
I think the Twins should go for Ellsbury, Lowrie and Masterson simply because they will be getting two quality position players plus a very good pitching prospect. The Twins really will need a young quality center fielder and shortstop.
me too Lion, I have been trying to move everyone over here so I can keep everyone on line, Todd not only views both logs, he contributes to both
seriously this is crazy…. lavelle just MAKE SOME NEWS SO WE CAN BE ON THE SAME BLOG!!!!!!!!!!
lol
Could someone fill me in on Lester? Why is he considered such a prize? Unless I am missing something, he had a good year (2005) in the minors but hasn’t been dominating anywhere else. Yes, I know he pitched a good game to win the series, but I am finding it hard to get excited about him as the centerpiece to a deal. Please, someone convince me that this is a good deal!!
The problem with Crisp is he’s another offensive weakness and will be 29 next season. Melky would be 22. Houghes 21. Plus, how was Kennedy, a 3-4 starter not enough as a centerpiece with a better and younger CF in the mix but Lester, a 3-4 starter with a worse CF and a AA pitcher with an ERA over 4.00 all of a sudden good enough to get the best pitcher in baseball. Call Hank, this would be highway robbery for the Sox. They’d give up a middle reliever, a 4th OF, and two guys who’ve yet to play a full season at AAA for Santana. Ouch for the Twins.
I’d pull the trigger on the Ellsbury deal personally. I agree that if you’re going to take Lester and Crisp, you’re better off going to the Yankees and getting Hughes and Cabrera cuz they have more upside.
I love the Twins lineup with Ellsbury in it, and an outfield of Young-Ellsbury-Cuddyer would be intriguing.
only reason to settle for the 4/1 deal is if theres other trades to follow involving those 4, because we sure as hell dont want that for santana….get back to ny and swallow the pride and take the deal from yanks….hughes is probably worth more alone than this 4/1 …….plus it pisses all the yank fans off……thats enough for me..
Twins looking to trade the best pitcher in baseball and NOT getting the teams best prospects…unbelievable. Good thing we have that new stadium coming.
Thanks Adam.
So the Twins wanted Hughes, Cabrera, and Kennedy or both Horne and Jackson. I wonder if the Yankees countered with Horne or Jackson. I think I like that better than either Red Sox deal.
As for Crisp, there are a lot of teams desperate for a CF right now and look at what Rowland and Jones are asking for. I would bet the Twins might trade Crisp for their 3B or SS (depending on where they play Lowrie).
My guess is that the Twins are talking to other teams about Crisp and Nathan before deciding on which Boston deal to take (and maybe privately wondering if the Yankees come back when they think about what the Red Sox will look like). If Nathan can get them a sold #2 starter, then I bet they take Ellsbury (who they seem to want most). If Crisp can bring back 2 pretty good prospects, they might take that deal.
by staying away from Buccholz and Lester, could they get Masterson and Bowden?
In other words, could they do Ellsbury, Lowrie, Masterson and Bowden?
Lester may not have the same ceiling as hughes, but last year they had very similar numbers in terms of ERA WHIP and K/9 Also Lester projects as a 2 not a 3/4. Kennedy is a 3, Lester is a 2, and he has had the most MLB success of any of them.
I don’t like the Sox deals as much as Hughes + Cabrera and “other”. Hughes has the value of two or more Jon Lesters, in my opinion.
The 4-for-1 is okay but Joe’s right that this Sox deal is missing upside. Crisp is a poor fit for the Twins, as he’s signed thru 2009, then will be past his prime right when the Twins are trying to compete again. If they lose Santana, the Twins don’t *need* an established 28-year-old centerfielder.
I do think Buchholz + Lowrie & Crisp would be a fair trade for Santana. Buchholz has shown the control and power to be dominant now, Lester has shown neither and is a longer-term, lower-ceiling prospect with a cancer history.
Another thing to note, Many experts consider Crisp to be one of the 3 or 4 best defensive centerfielders in baseball. He was #3 in the fielding bible with a +22, his arm is a little weak but he gets to everything. Melky is below average, better suited to right as he has a strong arm but bad range, he was 3rd to last in the fielding bible rankings at a -22.
I appreciate all the insight, but I’m frustrated by the bigger picture. What this team has become is a AAAA team. If Carl feels he can’t spend more than he’s doing now, then he should sell to someone who can. You need to either fix baseball or sell to someone who wants to play in the current environment. Otherwise, all this trade worrying is for nothing. Does it matter at all the number of prospects you get or whether they’ll pan out if you have an owner unwilling to pay them when they mature? I realize I’m off-topic, but my blood boils by people blindly accepting Pohlad’s philosophy.
For the love of God! Take the Ellsbury package over Lester. We need hitting prospects, not pitching at this point. I am shocked that the Yanks and Bosox are so determined to hold on to 2 of their top 3 prospects. Just go out and buy superstars like you always do! The Twins need the prospects more than you do for crying out loud.
A haul for Haren?
The loser of the Santana Sweepstakes between the Yankees and Red Sox would likely turn their attention to A’s starter Danny Haren, who is on the block. But A’s GM Billy Beane is asking for a haul for Haren, who is under a very reasonable contract $16.25 million over the next three years, assuming his 2010 option is exercised.
The A’s would likely ask that two out of three from Boston’s trio of Jacoby Ellsbury, Jon Lester and Clay Buchholz or two of three from the Yankees’ group of Joba Chamberlain (who’s been untouchable), Philip Hughes and Ian Kennedy. And that would just be the beginning of Oakland’s requests.
And some thing the Twins are being unreasonable?
Adam,
Melky might be better suited for rightfield defensively, but he doesn’t hit nearly well enough to play a corner outfield spot.
I agree MOR Floyd…although in the past I have been guilty of blindly accepting that Pohlad philosophy. Regardless, it’s very frustrating.
heres the lastest news guys…..
NASHVILLE, Tenn. — The Red Sox are preparing to revamp their proposal for superstar pitcher Johan Santana and it appears they may be the new frontrunners as the Santana Sweepstakes nears the finish line.
The Twins are expected to decide by the end of Tuesday whether Santana will go to Boston or perhaps New York — though for the Yankees to get back in it they will have to ignore their own Monday deadline.
The Red Sox are planning to enhance their offer by the early afternoon Tuesday. After the Twins’ talks with the Yankees hit a stalemate over prospects just as the Yankees’ self-imposed deadline hit late Monday, Minnesota put in a midnight call to Boston and requested that the Red Sox make their “best” offer that included young left-hander Jon Lester.
The Twins and Red Sox exchanged medical information on Santana and Lester, and both sides were said to be satisfied with what they saw, another sign Boston leads the sweepstakes.
Boston was preparing bids Tuesday morning that included either Lester or top outfield prospect Jacoby Ellsbury, though it still appears that the Red Sox’ new bid will include one — but not both — of those coveted players. Boston’s secondary prospects are also well-regarded, and it appeared possible the Red Sox may just expand the offer to include more of them.
Boston is well-stocked with prospects, including pitchers Justin Masterson and Michael Bowden, shortstop Jed Lowrie and outfielder Brandon Moss.
Meanwhile, Yankees owner Hank Steinbrenner told the Associated Press Tuesday morning they were “probably” going to stick to their self-imposed Monday deadline, and thus be out of the derby. However, the Yankees have changed their minds before, as they did with Alex Rodriguez. After bidding A-Rod adieu, they gave him a record $275 million contract that’s expected to be finalized momentarily.
The Twins and Yankees reached what one person term an “impasse” after the Twins insisted that the Yankees include either pitcher Ian Kennedy or a tandem of pitching prospect Alan Horne and outfield prospect Austin Jackson in their package in addition to pitcher Phil Hughes and outfielder Melky Cabrera.
The Yankees told the Twins earlier that they did not want to include Horne or Jackson, and they certainly didn’t want to include both. They also said they would not put Kennedy in with Hughes and Cabrera.
I am getting less and less impressed with the Red Sox offer, which figures to be less than the Yankees because the Sox are not in dire need of starting pitching like NY. Crisp, to me, adds nothing to the deal. On the other hand, Cabrera’s defense is troubling, as the Dome magnifies any defensive shortcomings.
The Twins are going to have continued problems regardless of off season acquisitions if they don’t make an improvement at second base ! Punto and Casilla will not do the job and are only utility type players. The Twins need a solid young outstanding second baseman. Maybe Lowrie from Boston would work at second base.
Haren is much more appealing to the teams than is Santana in many ways. First, they have him locked up for a few years at very reasonable salaries. And, he’s an All-Star caliber pitcher that would make each of the two teams better.
snepp,
I agree, I was just talking about Defense, I don’t think he’s good enough to play center especially between young and Cudyer in a big outfield. If he develops some power he might be a future RF if not he’s destined to be a 4th OF
jb,
Lowrie is primarily a 2b actually they moved him to short last year because he was blocked by pedroia
Adam,
I figured you were only referring to defense, but I figured it wouldn’t hurt to reiterate that point for people who don’t realize Melky isn’t “all that”.
From Rob Neyer’s ESPN chat:
Am I dumb or is Hughes and Melky a MUCH better offer for Minnesota than Lester and Coco. If it is a better offer, are the remaining throw in prospects really that crucial to knock the Yanks out? I really can’t believe the Twins are being so demanding with the Melky and Hughes package.
Rob Neyer: (12:25 PM ET ) I don’t think you’re dumb, but you’re leaving out Jed Lowrie, who would probably be a part of any deal with the Red Sox. Lowrie’s the real prize.
Good point MOR Floyd. We’ll be here again in about 2-3 years talking about Morneau.
Should we just start the discussion now?
And a follow-up:
Jason (NY”: “Lowrie is the real prize”. By “real prize” do you mean a middle infielder who is going to hit .290 with limited power and no speed? A young Mark Loretta perhaps, but no “real prize”.
Rob Neyer: (12:30 PM ET ) Limited power? Really? In the high minors this year, the guy finished with 68 long hits in 133 games. Tell me what I’m missing, and I’ll issue an immediate retraction.
so everyone it seems like the twins are going to get 5 players… either lester crisp masterson lowrie moss/bowdon or ellsbury masterson lowrie bowdon/moss…
which one would you guys rather take?
any feelings on lowrie playing 3b or is he strictly a middle man…
its very interesting to see what A’s are asking for Haren…
The Twins have learned from Hunter and Santana. The same mistake won’t be made with Morneau. They will lock him long term. If the don’t, they never planned to in the first place.
The Twins should take Ellsbury and Lowrie regardless of the pitching prospects. Young pitching is not a concern of the team, but getting two positive position players would greatly help the team in the future.
MOR Floyd & Casey,
After Santana trade, the economics of the team will have been righted.
Later in the winter, after trades are out of the way. I look for deals with Morneau & Cuddyer. If not I will join your chorus.
Regards,
So it’s either Lester/Crisp + 3 throw-ins, or Ellsbury/Masterson + 3 throw-ins?
I don’t like any combo with Crisp. If you are going to take Masterson, I’d much rather just resign Silva.
Take Hughes and Melky.
I think you need an organization’s top prospect for the best pitcher in baseball. Ellsbury or Hughes need to be included in any to get to the table.
The best deal on the table still appears to be two compensatory draft picks.
I prefer to get at least one player who will step out on the field in April.
If we can get Bowdon on top of Ellsbury, Lowrie, and Masterson…take it. I just hope Nathan can get us a #2 or #3 starter from someone.
Shane mack,
Lowrie and Masterson aren’t throwins, they are the same level of prospect as a Tabata or kennedy
ok guys these prospects the redsoxs are offering may not be the top mlb allstar talent young people but they are all top prospects in baseball ….
i would much rather steal 4 top prospects and lester/ellsbury from them then get hughes and a melkey…..
I doubt the Red Sox are going to go after Haren. They are in the Santana bidding because he is a special player they want to keep away from the Yankees. Haren is just another young starter. If the Yankees want to pay an arm and a leg for him, I think the Red Sox will let them.
I would rank the deals this way:
Hughes, Kennedy, Cabrera
Ellsbury, Lester, Lowrie
Hughes, Cabrera, Home and Jackson
Unfortunately, apparently none of those deals are on the table.
Hughes, Cabrera, (Home or Jackson)
Ellsbury, Lowrie, Masterson
Lester, Crisp, Lowrie, Masterson
IF those last three are the choices, keeping Santana seems like a real option. Unless every player in those deals reaches their potential, the Twins are going to come out behind. In fact, its possible the two draft choices will be a better haul in the long run.
Who can play in 2008?
Just say “No” to Coco.
I think we need to some how get Lester and Ellsbury together in a deal.
I’M WITH CORY ON THIS ONE
I’d prefer to get the Yankees deal done. Melky, Ellsbury and Crisp would all provide roughly the same production, with Melky and Ellsbury preferable by being younger and cheaper. Since we can’t get BOTH Ellsbury AND Lester from Boston, then Hughes, Melky and 1 or 2 other Yankee prospects is a better deal. However, If Lowrie can be an above average SS for the next 6 years, then the Ellsbury-Masterson-Lowrie deal would be acceptable.
I wonder if we will see the Yanks go back on what they said before (as they have done a few times this offseason already) and make another offer for Santana. Do you all think that Mr. Smith could be stalling just a bit on the Red Sox trade just to see if the Yanks change there mind and throw somthing else in the mix?
both yankees players, all 4 red sox, masterson not til the break probably, but the other 3 are probably opening day starters
The only way I think the Twins should take on Crisp is if they can somehow use him to get Blalock from Texas. Rangers were looking at getting him anyway, and are trying to get rid of Hank. It would help us out at 3B.
If we are looking for project 2010, I say Ellsbury/Masterson/Lowrie/Bowden. Coco is a stop gap at CF, not the future.
If the Twins went the way of two draft choices, it would be a win to get two guys as talented as either Hughes/Cabrera or Ellsbury/Lowrie. And if they did get lucky enough to draft that well, you’re talking 3-6 years before it pays off. Make the trade.
With multiple holes in our line-up, you can’t throw the best trade bait in recent memory away on just prospects. If ever there was a chance to instantly solve some problems, this is it. We can trade our pitching prospects for position prospects if we are just restocking our minor leage affiliates.
For people wondering if the Twins could still have a shot at the Division this season…with or without Santana.
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7525396?MSNHPHMA
Do you think the 08 Twins (with or w/out Santana) can make the Wildcard?
Provided that trade goes through of course…
T,
The only time anybody picked us to win the division we had a terrible season.
My Red Sox are becoming the new evil empire and I hate it. No way should they be trading talent just so they can then pay Santana an absurd 25 million a year. That’s TWICE what Big Papi makes and a hell of a lot more than Beckett earns – who by the way pitched better in the clutch than Johan.
If I were call ing the shots this in whatI would take in order
Ellsbury, Lester, Lowrie
Hughes, Kennedy, Cabrera
Hughes, Cabrera, Home and Jackson
These two teams cannot be so dense as to think Johan doesn’t put either one of them atop the AL east. The Hankees are blowing my mind right now even letting us talk to the Red Sux. Think of what this would do to them?
You’re missing what I’m trying to show you in that post.
Dontrelle Willis and Miguel Cabrera potentially to the Tigers?
On the plus side, Brandon Inge could come here and play third for a time.
ABNM,
Hope you’re not in the Sudan 
Has anyone heard any rumors about Nathan? I know I’m dreaming, but wouldn’t a Nathan for Blalock trade make sense for both teams?
I think the Twins are overvaluing the Sox prospects. The Red Sox will rob the Twins like they did to the Expos when they got Pedro. The Twins need to demand Bucholtz. Lester is not a #2 SP, not in his wildest dreams. The deal will end up being Ellsbury, ( who at his best will be Juan Pierre…no power, no arm…just a slap hitter with speed ), and three spare car parts. Just because it’s the only offer, doesn’t mean you should do it. The Twins would be better off keep Johan and taking the draft picks.
The Red Sox will trade Ellsbury, Lowrie and Lester for Santana.
Lester, Crips, Lowrie, Masterson and Anderson will settle the things.
None of them is amazing right now(Lester might become sooner), but Twins will fill all the holes and make a good team, able to win just as much as with Santana (Santana is still only one player that gets 15-20 games, so if Lester can get 10-12 games right now + all the other prospects, its beter. Santana does make all the difference in Boston though with everyone else in the rotation).
Sounds good enough?
MATTMARDAN…I dont think the Yankees really care what the Sox are going to do. They hold their young SP’s very high. It took a closed door meeting to include Hughes who is a #1 Ace in 2 to 3 years, 1/2 the brass still doesnt agree to include Hughes. I cant belive the Sox are being unreasonable demanding more when they are about to get much less value from the Sox.
Take the draft picks? It might be nice to actually get something for Johan that most of us will be able to see come to fruition in our lifetime.
The more I think about it, the more I like getting Ellsbury. Robbing Torii of a homer against the baggie in the 08 opener.
Hey, I can dream, can’t I?
oops sorry…lol….
I cant belive the TWINS are being unreasonable demanding more when they are about to get much less value from the Sox
= )
Again, just because we can trade Johan doesnt mean we should. Not for the offers that are on the table. Do you really think that Jacoby Ellsbury is the center piece for this trade? Before last season he wasnt ranked that high by Baseball America. The Sox are selling high on him.
Umm, there is no way two draft picks are better than any of these packages.
My top choice would be to get Hughes. But if the Yankees won’t ante up more than they have then I would take the Ellsbury deal with as many top prospects as I could pry away from them, call it a deal, and move on to the Nathan part of the deal.
The packages aren’t great, but they aren’t a disaster either. They fill a couple holes, replenish additional pitching depth that can either come up to the bigs or be used as bait to make more deals.
Two draft picks would be completely starting over and I don’t think the cupboard is so bare that the Twins have to do that. With talent like Liriano, Young, Morneau, Mauer, et al, I would hate to lose the guy for two draft picks.
Could they do better hanging onto Santana and taking him into the season? Possibly. But they might end up completely hosed in that scenario as well. A ramped up Red Sox deal, barring a Yankee change of heart, is the best of a collection of mediocre to bad choices.
how many times is the public going to be buffaloed by this miser Carl Pohlad before they can see straight?
he weasels a stadium saying he cna keep his stars then, of course he does not do that
now people say , well of course he will now sigh Morneau, etc
hwo much do you wanna bet? What has this sorry miserly sack of crap ever done that would make you trust him?
dont get me wrong, if we could really get a boffo deal, then trade Johan, but Cheap carl does not want a boffo deal, because that would mean paying players when they mature,
Carl is going to his grave carign about money and being despised when he could be a hero ,, I hope all that money does him good wherever he is going
Short of a boffo deal, dont trade, now at any rate,,, boffo deal, or hold
DREW,
THINK GRADY SIZEMORE EXCEPT FASTER HITTING IN FRONT OF MAUER, YOUNG, MORNEAU, AND CUDDY.
AND THE YANKEES ARE NOT BETTER THAN THE SOX THIS YEAR WITH THEIR STAFF. THE Y NEED TO COMPETE WITH THEM NOW. WE ARE A CYCLICAL TEAM. THEY ARE NOT. THEY NEED TO WIN NOW. THEY NEED JOHAN AS MUCH AS THE METTIES.
I WONDER IF WE COULD HAVE GOTTEN BOTH LESTER AND ELLSBURY TOGETHER BEFORE THE SOX BECAME SERIOUS.
Where is all this love for Blalock coming from again? Is it because we couldn’t get him a few years back?? Since then he’s had shoulder surgery.
I read the Twins were talking to the Astros about Nathan
While I agree that the offer from the Yankees appears to better than the one the Red Sox are giving (only one of their 3 top prospects), the deal I would really like to see would be with the Angels, centering around Howie Kendrick and including Gary Matthews to play center (maybe get the Angels to throw in a couple million). Then you could move Nathan to a place like Milwaukee for Capuano, and I think they would be able to compete this year as well as being stocked for the future. As good as Lester, Ellsbury, or Bucholz looks, only getting one of them for Santana doesn’t seem like a good offer.
Why does this deal need to happen this week? Why not hold out until later in the winter and see if we can strike a deal. Again, I hate this offer by the Sox. They have all the power now since the Yanks dropped out. This deal will come back to haunt us if we make it/
Ellsbury and Lowrie are the two most important peices. They’re both on the roster opening day if we get them, filling huge holes. Masterson and Bowden might be solid but not for at least a year. If we take the Ellsbury package, you’d have to think Nathan is getting traded for starting pitching. They better not trade him for Blalock, who’s probably done more roids than a WWF wrestler. He’s a declining power hitter who plays mediocre defense. No thank you.
I agree Drew. I also agree that if he is traded, it needs to be before July, but there is a lot of winter left.
Hold out unless you get a better deal.
Any deal available now will be available late.r
Folks, I think you’re missing the point. Either of the Sox packages are fantastic. If you look at it, the Sox really don’t need another pitcher, but when the best comes on the market, and it also hurts the Yankees, they’ll do it, but it’s an expensive buy. They give up all those players and that ALSO get to pay Santana $20m+ a year for 6 years? I understand that pitching isn’t cheap, but the Sox already have an outstanding pitching staff, and I’m not even sure that Santana would be the #1 on that staff…
MATTMARDAN
Sizemore? Keep dreaming, he will never deveolop that kind of power. Pierre or ( Gulp ), Dave Roberts is what I keep seeing.
Paul,
THANK YOU!! A VOICE OF REASON!!!
The Hartford Courant is reporting that Boston is willing to trade Lester, Crisp, Lowrie, and Mastersen for Santana. They also go on to say the Sox have apparently been able to keep Ellsbury out of the deal.
Yuck!!!!!
bottom line: when you have a hall of famer pitcher in your midst, you ONLY unload him if there is a Herschel Walker tye deal you cant turn down.
As someone said, if Pohlad does not want to play in this environment we have today, sell it to someone who will.
We were always told that the public should not really have to pay for stadiums, but thats how its done
same with paying players, of course its obscene, but thats the way its done now, so play the game or sell to someone who will
This crazy if the Twins pull the trigger on this trade. That is garbage that the Red Sox are offering.
Kevin..Exaclty, nothing needs to happen this week. There is no deadline on the horizon. I really wanted to see what Santana and Liriano can do in a full season together..KEEP THE BAND TOGETHER!!! LOL
I think the value of thid deal hinges on Lowrie. If he is going to be an above average SS in MLB I would probably do the deal. I am just not that high on Ellsbury and if given a choice between Ellsbury of Lester AND Crisp I would take the latter everytime. I think Joe is right that Hughes is the only guy out of these that is going to be an all-star year in and year out. Although getting an above average pitcher, decent CF AND talented young SS is better than all-star caliber pitcher and average CF. I know everyone thinks I am crazy but I would rather have Crisp than Cabrera no matter what. The only thing that tilts toward Melky is he is cheaper, but Crips is only $11 mil over 2 seasons and BOY do we sure have some money to blow now. I still don’t like the red sox deal that much but it would fill 3 holes with decent players. You could then concentrate on adding an all-star caliber 3B and maybe adding a FA starter along the lines of a Livan Hernandez to help this young staff by eating up some innings.
you are right Ed, especially when you consider this is Johan santana.
But Cheap Carl loves garbage, because garbage is cheap
Lester, Crisp, Lowrie, and Mastersen for Santana…THIS DEAL GETS WORSE BY THE MINUTE!!! The Sox are trying to play us now that the Yanks have dropped out. KEEP JOHAN!!!!
Lowrie is intriguing, but I hope this talk of not going after Hughes is just posturing by Bill Smith to show the mini-Boss that he won’t be pushed around. If they’re getting Hughes, the Twins don’t really need Kennedy, and the Yanks can’t afford to give him up–who would pitch for them? Igawa?
Hughes, Cabrera, and Tabata or Jackson is a far better offer than anything the BoSox have mentioned. The Boston deals address more of our immediate needs, but I think it would be a mistake to pass up all that talent.
Kevinn,
I don’t care who they get for Santana because I just want to make the same old tired complaints about Pohlad and how stingy he is even though nothing is going to change and there is really no sense even discussing it while everyone else is trying to figure out what deal will make the Twins better because I don’t really know enough I just know that Carl is a bad evil meany.
Trade Nathan to the Brewers for Bill Hall. There’s our new third baseman.
FOUR YEARS IN THE MINORS SIZEMORE HIT TWENTY SOMTHING HOMERS. ELLSBURY WOULD BE PLAYING IN A DOME FOR TWO YEARS. MY POINT IS ELLSBURY WILL SCORE A LOT OF RUNS.
Even if Lester and ellerby were in the same trade, I would not think it sufficient,m but the bosox are not even offering that
why is this area going to be taken again in another trade, ala Herschel, Kevin Garnet, et al
Cheap Carl loves garbage, because garbage is cheap… Livan Hernandez…seems like a match made in heaven…OR HELL!!!!!
These offers are horrible…we should have taken the Hughes, Cabrera offer and ran. Cabrera is still in his early 20’s, a switch hitter and has a cannon arm. Hughes is going to be a #1 before you know it, every team needs someone like that no matter how many young SP’s you have.
Trader Bill, DON’T BACK DOWN!!!!!!!!!!
Crisp and Lester over Ellsbury? Not a chance. Coco stinks. Absolutely worthless.
Crisp over Melky? It ain’t saying much, but I will take Melky over Coco any day of the week and twice on Sundays.
Agreed, Kubelfan. I’m pleased to see there is someone else other than myself a Kubel fan. Looking for a very good year from that young man…unless of course the Twins decide he’s more valuable as a pinch hitter…lol.
Kubelfan, the problem is that the Yankees have not actually offered Hughes, Cabrera, and Tabata/Jackson. They refused to include either one of those guys with Hughes and Cabrera.
your are right there Kevinn
I just wish we could push these guys into realizing that Johan is going to have a tremendous impact for whoever gets him. He is very competative and although he hasn’t been great yet in the postseason, I can easily see him becoming the stuff of legends in one of these two cities. He will be well worth giving up some of their prospects with the way he is going to help you win the next four or five years. I could stop thinking about this and just be done with it if we could get Hughes/Kennedy/Cabrera or Ellsbury/Lester/Lowrie. It is so funny how one above average prospect is holding up these deals for JOHAN SANTANA. The Red Sox don’t really need Johan that bad, but they surely can afford to lose Lester and Ellsbury. The Yankees will forget who Ian Kennedy even is as soon as Santana,Jeter,Pettitte and company win another ring.
how many times is the public going to be buffaloed by this miser Carl Pohlad before they can see straight?
Kevin, if you don’t want to keep going down this path with you and I stop making comments like this.
I fully understood that getting the stadium NOW wouldn’t mean the team magically was fixed in ‘08.
And I still have not a heard a reasonable estimate from people such as yourself as to what kind of increase in payroll you’d accept before finally putting this whole thing to rest.
Mike, I believe, from what’s known, they refused to add Kennedy to the Hughes deal. Others may be workable.
In short, if you want me to lay off of you Kevin, you need to stop finding different ways to call me an idiot.
That and finally answer the question I put forth.
Kevin(original one)…Im with you buddy. We need to make a smart move, not just the only move. Boston has Cheap Carl’s nuts in their drawer.
MATTIMARDAN…STOP YELLING!!! LOL
If you think Ellsbury is going to turn out to be Sizemore…well…I just dont know how else to respond to that but to say what my friend Borat always tells me… NOT!!!
I don’t want to stick up for Carl, but name a team that’s built their own stadium, or an owner who consistently spend out of his own pockets on his team. The Steinbrenners spend so much because of the revenue generated in New York and through YES Network. But that’s for a whole other debate. The fact is, no team can afford Johan unless they have revenue streams like New York and Boston. That’s just the way it is.
The yanks need to put a package together that does NOT include melky. If they think he is so valuable then they can keep him and give up hughes, kennedy, tabata/jackson. I don’t mind crisp, but let’s get him for a mid level prospect in a separate deal to hold down CF for a few years.
Melky is in every deal cause the yanks know he is average - but the league still sees some upside in him.
Nathan is worth more than Bill Hall, but not a bad idea for a 3B. Yes Crisp is better than Melky. He is faster and can steal 20-30 bases a year and he has phenomenal range in centerfield. They hit for around the same average and both put the ball in play and rarely strike out. Maybe Melky has the potential for a little more pop but not much. He is a much better leadoff hitter than Melky and has always killed the Twins and hit very well in the dome. Who the hell is our leadoff hitter if we trade for Melky? Joe Mauer or what? How about Brendan Harris that sounds dangerous.
TJL..on Melkey..switch hitting, 23 year old CF’s with cannon arms and some pop are hard to find
What has this sorry miserly sack of crap ever done that would make you trust him?
I’m going to answer your question, even if you won’t answer mine.
The Carl Pohlad Foundation is a member of the Minnesota branch of the Horatio Alger Association.
Each year for at least the past 5 years, his foundation has donated scholarships to students graduating from high school.
If I remember correctly, it’s around 20-30 students a year. I don’t recall specific amounts.
Zach…good point.
I’d rather have Bedard at half the price who has proven he can pitch in the AL East. Johan went 4Wins 1Loss in the East last year, but I still would prefer the cheaper player. With the Red Sox offense a nasty pitcher like Santana or even Bedard is more of a luxury than a necessity. The Sox don’t need either of them.
I agree with whoever is saying Elsbury isn’t that special. I’d take him, but not at the expense of Lester.
Who would you take?
Hughes, Kennedy, Tabata
Lester, Lowrie, Elsbury
I like the yanks deal because of the huge potential of hughes and tabata, but the bosox package is more of a sure thing to at least bring 3 solidly above avg players
I could not agree more with TJL. If Melky is so worthwhile Hank, why don’t you give us Hughes/Kennedy and say A.Jackson or Betemit? They know Melky isn’t very good and doesn’t belong starting on a contending team let alone the New York Yankees. I also would do a Hughes/Kennedy/Jackson or Betemit deal and trade for Crisp seperately. I seriously would rather have Wilson Betemit than Melky Cabrera. He also fits one of our needs (3B) and actually has 20+ HR pop in his bat.
Drew, the problem is he isn’t a CF, not in the dome. His range is abysmal he can’t really play center and he has less pop than Crisp. His only advantage over Crisp is age and money.
I really like Ellsbury/Masterson/Lowrie/Bowden. We don’t need another middle-of-the-rotation starting pitchers like Lester! With Ellsbury, Young and Cuddyer in the outfield we are set for many years (assuming we extend Cuddyer). Lowrie fills one of the open infield positions, and he can actually hit the ball! No-hit Casilla and no-hit Punto can fight it out for SS. It seems like Masterton has at least as much up-side as Lester, except for the lack of major league experience. Bowdon makes up for giving away Morlan in the Young trade.
Kubel at DH will make us forget RonDL White. That leaves 3B as our only open position, with Harris and others competing for the position in spring training.
If we are aiming to have a competitive team in 2010, we have to go with Ellsbury over Crisp. Or do you really think Denard Span will ever make it to the big leagues?
Melky is not a CFer Drew (see the fielding stats quoted above). The yankees had little choice but to play him there. He is Cuddyer without as much pop.
TJL I would take the Yankees deal. On the surface the Red Sox one looks better but it isn’t. Hughes is a surefire #1 or 2 type guy and Tabata will be a star in a few years and you can trade Kennedy in a package for a very good third baseman. All those Red Sox player are going to be good above average player, but none of them have the talent or potential of Hughes and Tabata. The Yankees will never offer that deal (they won’t even give us Kennedy, let alone him and Tabata) but I like the hypothetical question.
Dave: I’ve heard Harris doesn’t have the arm strength to play 3B.
You know what that means:
Your 2008 3B: Nick Punto.
What’s killing Ellsbury is that he’s now a Boras Guy. Boras won’t like his guy being “stuck” on the Twins, and thus will pretty much stop Ellsbury from negotating any kind of long term contract until after his years of servitude are up.
Yes, you may think Pohlad is cheap…or that Smith is a moron. But you have to admit that there’s not going to be a way to lock up Ellsbury longterm unless they throw obscene amounts of money at his unproven feet.
And I would hope that even those who think that Pohlad’s cheap would recognize the problem with throwing too much money at a guy who hasn’t done anything yet.
From mlbtraderumors.com:
Latest On Johan Santana: Tuesday
UPDATE, 12-4-07 at 1:15pm: ESPN Peter Gammons says the Twins are trying to decide between a 3-for-1 (Ellsbury/Lowrie/Masterson) or a 4-for-1 (Lester/Crisp/Lowrie/Masterson). No contract negotiations with the Red Sox and Santana’s agent have taken place yet.
UPDATE, 12-4-07 at 1:08pm: The Boston Globe has an update, basically saying negotiations are to resume this afternoon between the Red Sox and Twins. It’s still not known whether the Twins will take an Ellsbury package or the Lester one. Meanwhile WFAN’s Sweeny Murti expects the Red Sox to send Lester, Crisp, and two others for Johan.
Rob Neyer had a blog on ESPN.com, apparently very high on Lowrie
I remember in 1987 when everyone was praising Pohlad for letting the Twins finally spend some money and go out and sign guys like Jeff Reardon and Bert Blyleven after we had had to put up with Calvin Griffith for so many years.
T, I dont care if you attack me. I enjoy your good natured ribbing from fellow baseball fans. We disagree
the fun of this board is we can debate with others who do not agree with us
I sincerely hope that Crisp produces next season. Because I do not like the idea of bringing him in as part of this deal…and I do not want to have to wade through the “THIS is what we got!” chaos that will likely ensue if he falters.
he’s in a double whammy of a tight spot, as “the guy that replaced Hunter”, and “the guy from the Santana trade”
I fully expect somebody from these boards to charge the plate the first time Crisp strikes out.
I guess that is a bit steep Zach - but Tabata’s stock dipped a bit this year I believe. I’d probably sub Jackson in for kennedy or tabata and still do the yankees deal. Hughes should be REALLY good.
That said, the Lester, Lowrie, Masterson, Crisp deal is still quite decent. I see a lot of value in having a gold glove caliber CFer with such a young pitching staff for a few years. Melky would be a killer for the development of our young pitchers
Last season I compared our situation with Santana to that of Clemens when he was with Houston. I said then that IF we wanted to prove to the Twins that they should pay a ton of money to Santana we should sell out the park every single time that he pitched. Every game that Clemens pitched in Houston it was to a packed house. The fans there appreciated the fact the team paid to bring him and made it worth all that money. I went to EVERY home game that Santana pitched last season. There was half the stands empty on most occasions. That tells the team that he DOES NOT sell tickets so WHY would they pay $25 mil a year to keep him. We did not put our money where our mouths were last season. At this point I think they should trade him to a team that will be able to afford him. Save the money and sign Morneau long term and try to develop the players we receive for Santana. Next year I will still go to the games no matter who is in uniform. I would have liked it to be Santana but at this point I agree that we need to sell for the highest bid.
I’m glad to see that you aren’t taking my disagreements personally (that does set you apart from quite a few people).
However I am still curious about how you’d answer my question. In your mind, what is a reasonable payroll expansion going into ‘08?
this may be out in left field but the astros have interest in nathan, if we get crisp, they have shown interest in him also, package them for hunter pence plus whatever. a little far fetched but that doesn’t stop most of us.
Why don’t we just sign Feliz. Decent hitter and fielder.
I also think we should not give up on Kubel yet. He has a great stroke and it is probably fair that it took him a couple years to come around again after completely destroying his knee. This guy was either minor league player of the year or MVP of AAA in ‘04 or ‘05. You don’t lose that kind of talent and he was supposed to be our third big gun with M&M. If we can keep him in the lineup and get him 500 AB’s I think he could give us .280 20 85 type production. Getting that out of your 7 guy in your lineup is pretty good.
Man I feel like we are settling here. This is how I see it. The Sox and Yanks have 2 players they are willing to offer, but not both….
Sox = Lester, Ellsbury
Yanks = Hughes, Kennedy
Off limits
Sox = Bucholtz
Yanks = Joba
I cant see why we demanded Hughes and Kennedy but are not demanding Lester and Ellsbury? I think both Lester and Ellsbury need to be in this deal, PLUS Lowrie and Masterson. I think If we left that offer on the table, the Sox will eventually take it. I dont understand what the mad rush is all about here????
As far as Lester goes, he is way over-rated in these trade talks. His numbers in the majors and minors are slightly worse than those ofBoof’s…
(Click on the links for the numbers)
thrylos…I agree. I dont know how everyone considers Lester a #2 but Kennedy a #4? Good look up both players stats on the Baseball cube ( just google each player ). Kennedy’s stats are far better than Lester’s.
This just in: The Boston trade of Ellsbury, Lowrie, and Lester fell threw when Minnesota refused to give up Nick Punto along with Santana.
Interesting fact, Lowrie being in the system was what let the Red Sox move Hanley Ramirez for Beckett. People are treating him like a throw in but he’s the #5 SS prospect in MLB. A better positional prospect than Tabata or Jackson who have upside but are miles away while Lowrie can start the season in the bigs
I hope the people here realize that it’s not Carl that is being stingy at this point. He is content hanging out and drinking apple juice thru a straw and watching the Twins play. It’s his kids that are locking down the vault and keeping the Twins $$$ minimal, thus ensuring that they each get maximum wampum a few years down the line.
Drew, I agree, now is not the time to settle for less than an optimal package.
While I have been clear I would like to sign him, even if we dont, we can wait this out another month or two and see what would pop up.
I firmly believe we could get as good as deal as this two months from now, and more than likely better.
I just dont understand the rush
I sure hope this Lowrie guy can play because if he can’t this deal is going to go down in infamy. It will end up being the deal for Lester and Crisp and a couple of no name propects that amounted to nothing. Don’t think anyone in their right mind envisioned us trading Santana for Lester and Crisp about a month ago. I would have gone into a depressed hibernation if you told me we were going to deal Santana to the Red Sox and not get Buchholz OR Ellsbury. I am just getting the feeling we’re getting fleeced and this trade will end being a very painful memory and a punchline to the rest of the league.
No rush right now, but if this deal is not done by March 31 we are screwed.
It sounds like the club is weighing two options from the BoSox. I think we go for the Ellsbury/Lowrie/Masterson package.
My buddy Skeet, who is hanging out at the Orpeyland Resort Hotel with his cell phone just called me to say that he has heard in the lobby that Boston has agreed to trade Jacoby Ellsbury, Jed Lowrie and Justin Masterson to the Twins for Johan Santana.
Zach, I dont disagree with you on that, but March is a long way off
Let’s give them like Santana and Blackburn for Ellsbury/Lester/Lowrie/Masterson, there fair and sign the t’s and dot the i’s.
tell Epstein we want Ellsbury AND Lester, or no deal now
If the Sox retain Lester, they’ll have a monster starting staff. How can the Twins ever hope for a WS?
So taking the Lester/Crisp deal and not the Ellsbury deal ironically means it’s the best long-term deal for the Twins.
tlod says:
December 4th, 2007 at 1:32 pm
This just in: The Boston trade of Ellsbury, Lowrie, and Lester fell threw when Minnesota refused to give up Nick Punto along with Santana.
How about our 1st born child as well Boston? Again, this deal gets worse and worse by the minute. We need to take charge here and demand certain players. I agree with Zach, I have a very bad feeling about this trade. Whats the worst that can happen if we dont trade him? He wins another CY young and leads us to the playoffs with Liriano? God forbid that happens!!! “we’ll just get draft picks” Well you know what, Id rather have the two draft picks and select players I like than to settle for garbage and watch the Sox win 5 WS in a row. Remember, the SOX are in the AL too. That means they win the division every year and we have to compete with the Yanks ( who would keep Hughes, Joba and Kennedy ) for the WC each year….know what that means folks? No playoffs until 2020.
What a way to start a new stadium!!
Anyone know a suicide line??
I think if we’re looking to rebuild/reload our team with young talent, why would Coco Crisp be patrolling in CF rather than Ellsbury? It really doesn’t make sense.
Joe C., any word on what the Twins are asking for in exchange for Joe Nathan?
Ellsbury
Harris
Mauer
Young
Morneau
Cuddyer
Kubel
Lowrie
Punto
Opening day on 2008? Its not terrible but I really think we could do better. Make a deal for Blalock and thats a solid lineup. I don’t know how now though because we needed pitchers back for Johan. Suddenly a couple injuries and our pitching depth is not so deep.
Drew,
I’ve been looking for that punto rumor everywhere, it isn’t anywhere. he just pulled it out pf nowhere
If we do not get back a frontline starter for Santana, we are one Liriano elbow tweek from being in last place. Ellsbury and Coco and Lester wont make a difference in that scenario. What Baker and the boys will lead us to the promise land???????
good lord
Joe, I think you nailed the analysis.
Kevin,
Santana’s trade value after the meetings will hinge a lot on what the Yanks and Sox do for somebody like Haren or Bedard.
They may likely trade a few guys the Twins are currently being offered to get one of those. Or will decided they no longer need Santana.
Adam..thanks..I put the razor away…lol
tlod, that was LOL.
Come on guys if any of you think that a rumor with Punto was true… It was a joke like very other comment that involves Punto.
This just in on mlbtraderumors.com
UPDATE, 12-4-07 at 1:46pm: According to Sean McAdam, the Twins will also meet with the Angels this afternoon to discuss Santana. The Twins would want Jered Weaver and Brandon Wood for starters. McAdam says the Red Sox and Twins haven’t spoken since this morning. Meanwhile Joe Christensen says there’s lobby buzz about the Red Sox/Twins deal becoming a 5-for-1.
Interesting.
Thoughts?
I agree, the Yankees package is the better one. Hughes is much more highly rated than Lester according to most pro scouts. The Sox have been trying to unload Crisp for a year now, so what does that say about him? Ellsbury is a player but he’s the only real impact player the Sox are willing to part with in the second scenario. If the Yankees can give us a high level prospect to go with Hughes and Cabrera, they should do that deal.
Because we NEED pitching in return. We are about to lose Garza and Santana those were are TOP 2 starters for next year! Getting both Lester and Crisp is better than Ellsbury. Why is everyone so fascinated with this guy? Yeah he will be pretty good but he is not the next Rickey Henderson. If we make the Ellsbury/Lowrie/Masterson deal our offense will be pretty decent, but wow will our pitching be in trouble. Say Liriano isn’t that guy until next year and we are relying on Baker,Slowey and Bonser as our frontline. OH CRAP is the term to describe that.
TJ….S
YES!!! THANK THE LORD!!!! The Angels have the pieces to make this work!!! Kendrick at 2B, Wood at 3rd and they have other minor league pitching prospects to satisfy our needs. That is the best news Ive seen all day!!!
I can’t see the angels making a move for santana they need hitting too much, I think cabrerra, bay or tejada is more likely
5-1 swap from Boston? I REALLY hope the Twins can accurately evaluate the Quality vs. Quantity.
Interesting, mostly for this reason:
Imagine opening day 2008 in the dome, with Johan on the mound and Torii patrolling centerfield.
This is a disgrace. The Twins are begging from the Red Sox because the Yankees are too smart. Keep Santana for his last year and trade Nathan.
People are going to laugh at how the Twins panicked and got nothing in return.
The Yankees are not coming back to the table because they don’t need to do so.
Smith needs to wait a week or so.
Adam, the story today is that LAA’s talks with Florida broke down. Cabrera’s back up for grabs.
Word now is that Detroit is looking at him and Willis for a horde of prospects.
I close my eyes and pretend it’s not happening, as well as pretend that I wouldn’t like to see that on the Twins.
What, exactly, is the difference between these offers and the Sox initial offer? Not much as far as I can see.
THE TRADE WITH BOSTON IS AWFUL!
Why are the Twins even considering it? Why do we always take the crap the other teams don’t sign or don’t want?
All those people who made just that wish are starting to regret not being a tad more specific.
I have been praying the Angels would get involved. Brandon Wood would look great in a Twins jersey.
3 yr AVG.
Crisp BA .288 OBP .336 RBI 59 R 74 SB 19 HR 13
Hunter BA .273 OBP .334 RBI 78 R 76
SB 19 HR 23
Crisp would fit nicely defensivly into our club plus not a huge drop off in production. If Ellsbury is a bust or pitchers start breaking him down on an IPOD its hard to say what he will do. I like Coco because he gives us consistancy and the flexibility to drop him in 2-3 years when we have new revenue.
That post was directed at Mike by the way.
And also, it’s not 15 seconds…though the message says it. I came back after a few minutes and didn’t get through.
OH PLEASE tell me we make a deal with the Angels! I have wanted to make a deal involving Brandon Wood and a pitcher for this whole process. He is going to be a stud SS or 3B not to mention another right handed bat we need. Oh the thought of Morneau,Mauer,Young an Wood as the nucleus for at least the next three years. Not to mention we can get a decent pitcher back in Weaver,Adenhart or Santana. I think this has overtaken the idea of Kemp/LaRoche and a pitcher as my favorite deal in this whole sweepstakes.
The Marlins are the biggest douches in the world. They want so much for Cabrera, they wont trade him. Moreno ( Angels GM ) loves latin players. Johan would be a great fit for them, their prospects would be a great fit for us.
See, if we are more patient, good things will happen. Making a move now just to make a move is suicide!!
Yes! Finally a team from LA gets involved! (I hope they are serious in their pursuit.)
The Marlins are looking to dump salary right now. I don’t think bringing in Santana would help that much.
If Detroit gets Cabrera it really doesn’t matter who we get for Santana anyway because they will be the class of the division of the next couple years. If they can get him without giving up Verlander,Miller,Ordonez, Granderson look out. I suppose they would have to probably give up Maybin and a couple very good young pitchers but man would they be good. Is anybody else starting to wish we played in the National League?
3-for-1 deal: Ellsbury, Masterson, Lowrie.
We cannot go wrong with this deal. Ellsbury will be one of the top Center Fielders in baseball and was the kid they brought in to take over Coco Crisps spot in CF. Masterson is got size and will turn into a solid starter and im sure evolve well with our young bullpen. Lowrie will be just as good as Bartlett defensively but I think he will also hit better than him. Lets take this deal. Lets get this team rolling. Next year we have potential to be good even without Santana. What do you think?
Zach…the Marlins are going to ask for the Moon, Sun and Stars for Miggy. Any team that adds Miggy will pay a heafty price. Marlins turned down Kendrick, Mathis, Adenhart…they wanted that package PLUS Ervin Santana and another player. If anyone swings a deal with FLA, they will be depleted.
NE says…I think you’re a Sox fan…lol
That deal is shit.
It is all good because I can’t wait to buy tickets to watch this offense.
CF Willits
SS Cedeno
C Mauer
LF Young
1B Morneau
RF Cuddyer
DH Kubel
3B Wood
2B Harris/Punto
Sign me up. Plus say Liriano,Baker,Slowey,Adenhart,Bonser that not to bad and young so they could still develop into something.
Zach…thats the kind of offer we need! Those are true prospects, not the garbage they are trying to pawn off to us in Boston…
4-1
5-1
hell, throw in the bat boy and make it a 6-1 deal?
We need quality, not quantity.
You guys are crazy… Ellsbury is too good to pass up… Just wait. Hopefully we snag that deal. And no I am not really a sox’s fan, but if you didn’t notice, they did win the world series which means they are the best team in baseball. That 3-1 trade would be giving us 3 of their top 4 prospects from argubaly the best organization in baseball the last decade. Those players are there for a reason.
[…] aleksandr had some great ideas on this topic.You can read a snippet of the post here.The Red Sox and Twins will resume “serious negotiations’’ later this morning as they close in on a blockbuster deal that would bring ace… […]
According to ESPN’s Peter Gammons, the Red Sox and Twins are close to finalizing a Johan Santana trade after Boston added Ryan Kalish to the mix.
Gammons says it’d be a 5-for-1, and with Kalish in the deal, it only makes sense that the Twins would be taking Jon Lester, Coco Crisp, Jed Lowrie and Justin Masterson. If Jacoby Ellsbury was involved, the Twins probably wouldn’t be asking for the additional center field prospect. Like Lowrie and Masterson, Kalish ranks comfortably among Boston’s top 10 prospects. He is much further away from the majors than the others. Dec. 4 - 3:47 pm et
The deal DOES NOT include Ellsbury! heehee…
The paper across the river suggest Smith might add a plyer/prospect to get the players he wants.
Coco Crisp will ruin the twins.
I would like to eventually see Casilla and Ellersby in the same line up. I love speed on the bath paths. I agree with someone above, take the 3-1, and screw the yankees.
“None of these Boston prospects, including Ellsbury, has the superstar potential of the Yankees’ Phil Hughes, in my opinion.”
Yep, you definitely need to do “more research.” Ellsbury has plenty of superstar potential as demonstrated by his recent play in a playoff pressure situation and you are underestimating Lester. A quality left hander is preferable to the rightie Hughes.
Melky Cabrera and Coco Crisp are a statisical dead heat in regards to career stats so if I’m the Twins GM, I want Ellsbury and Lester or Ellsbury and Buchholtz. The media reports support this notion as the Sox won’t give up Ellsbury and a pitcher but will deal Crisp and a pitcher. The Yankees offered a similar deal with Cabrera and Hughes. It boils down to whom you think is a better pitcher Lester or hughes.
The Twins should get a pitcher in a deal for Santana because quality pitchers are in high demand. Lester and Crisp would be a better deal than Ellsbury plus other prospects including Masterson.
I’m a Sox fan and I don’t want Santana. Why has Mike Redmond’s name not been mentioned.
