Moving forward with Johan in the fold
Posted on December 7th, 2007 – 1:36 PMBy Joe Christensen
Judging from your comments and e-mails, I think Twins GM Bill Smith’s approval rating remains high after the winter meetings. Most seem happy he didn’t bend and take an unsatisfactory package for Johan Santana.
I know there was plenty of dialogue, and some reports have indicated the Red Sox and perhaps even the Mets are optimistic they could strike a deal with just a few tweaks to their offers.
Obviously, a Santana trade could happen at any time. But let’s say it doesn’t. Let’s say the Twins decide to go for it with Santana and Joe Nathan, at least until the trade deadline.
I hadn’t scratched out potential lineups since the Delmon Young trade, but here’s a best-case scenario going forward, in my humble opinion:
Starting rotation
1. Johan Santana — Embraces one last chance to carry this underdog team.
2. Francisco Liriano — Starts at Rochester, regains his stride by late May.
3. Scott Baker — Becomes a steady and reliable innings eater.
4. Boof Bonser — After trimming weight, he regains his late 2006 form.
5. Kevin Slowey — Continues the growing process with regular starts.
Bullpen
Closer: Joe Nathan — His presence at the back end is huge.
Setup: Pat Neshek — Returns strong after tiring late in 2007.
Setup: Matt Guerrier — Remains a reliable compliment to Neshek.
LH: Dennys Reyes — Regains old form, allowing Glen Perkins to move into a valuable starter/reliever swing role.
Middle: Juan Rincon — Unless he’s traded to provide help elsewhere.
Middle: Jesse Crain — Might need a few months to regain his velocity.
Depth: There’s plenty with Nick Blackburn, Julio DePaula and rising prospects Jose Mijares and LHP Brian Duensing coming in the next wave.
Lineup (Just spit-balling here)
1. Coco Crisp, CF
After all this talk with Boston, the Twins should at least be able to swing a reasonable deal for Coco.
2. Brendan Harris, SS
What he lacks in the field, he’ll make up for with his bat. He had a .777 OPS last season, compared to .700 for Jason Bartlett.
3. Joe Mauer, C
Imagine what a difference a healthy Mauer could make.
4. Michael Cuddyer, 3B
The field staff is dead-set against moving Cuddyer back to 3B, and Cuddyer might be even harder to convince, but barring another 3B acquisition, this might give the team the best chance, moving forward.
Note: I can tell this is a hot-button topic in the comments section. Just a reminder that the Angels and Dodgers are among the teams trying to find a third baseman, with everyone agreeing they are almost impossible to find.
5. Justin Morneau, 1B
His OPS in 2007 was .835, compared to .934 in MVP season of 2006.
6. Delmon Young, RF
If he blossoms as many project, he moves right between Mauer and Morneau.
7. Jason Kubel, LF
He batted .303 with an .890 OPS over the season’s second half.
8. Craig Monroe, DH
The Cuddyer move allows Monroe to become an everyday factor and while he’s a strikeout machine, he’s always a home run threat.
9. Nick Punto, 2B
Alexi Casilla won’t be handed anything, but if he gains some polish, this job could be his. Harris, Punto and Casilla can split up the two middle-infield spots in any number of ways.
Again, those are just some quick ideas. There are other best-case scenarios, of course. Maybe Denard Span is the surprise of spring training and assumes the CF job. Maybe Brian Buscher shows significant improvement on defense and proves the skeptics wrong about his ability to handle third base.
Obviously, the entire equation changes with a Santana trade. Stay tuned.
101 Responses to "Moving forward with Johan in the fold"
Cuddy at third? It’s a risky move, but I think it’s something that could/should be considered.
Gardy has said before that he has no intention of moving him, but if Cuddy said he could handle it, he’d consider it. But obviously, I think it’s something that will come up when Gardy talks to both him and Delmon Young about who should move to left field. But I do expect Cuddy to stay put.
But with that said, I agree, having him at third base with Young in Right (Kubel in left) I think that’s the best thing this club could do moving forward.
What do you think it’d take to get Crisp?
I’m pretty sure Gardie said no way is Cuddyer being moved from one of the corner outfield positions. We’ll find a 3B somewhere. We better.
Agreed on the rotation.
If we keep Santana, I don’t know if it is worth signing Monroe to his 4.something million minimum contract. And I’d rather acquire a 3rd baseman than Coco Crisp. Here’s what I’m thinking:
2B Casilla / Harris
DH Kubel or 3B Mystery Dude
C Mauer
LF Young
1B Morneau
RF Cuddyer
3B Mystery Dude or DH Kubel
CF Tyner / Pridie
SS Punto
It sounds to me that Punto might be a better fielder at SS than Harris. But in either case I would be pulling for a decent showing from Casilla in spring training to bump LNP from the lineup.
Real production out of DH and 3B plus an excellent pitching staff could be enough to make a run next year, even with downgrades at short and center.
If Jason Bartlett were still the SS I would be fine with moving Cuddy to 3rd but a Harris/Cuddy combo would have to be a top 3 worst range for the left side of the infield in baseball if not the worst.
I still maintain that Kubel should be batting second as his OPS jumps .150 between the first and the second time he sees a pitcher, and jumps another .100 between the second and third.
That lineup is promising but it doesn’t inspire confidence when compared to the Yankees, Boston, and Detroit.
the red soxs need bullpen help…
they will probably take rincon for co co lol….. thats how badly they need bullpen help
ya the problem is cuddy is much better in the outfield cause he doesnt have the range for the left infield….
id rather switch young to left just cause cuddy has done so well in right…
get young used to left.. we would have like the best arms in the majors lol
Ok, so this is probably the best case scenario with how things sit right now. Realistically how many games would that lineup win? There is little doubt in my mind that they wouldn’t even finish at .500, maybe 75-87.
Unless a lot of pieces are added(we all know that isn’t likely to happen), this lineup more than anything else is proof enough that Santana and Nathan need to be traded.
If we put harris at SS the staffs Era will be .5 run higher and everyone will wonder why. I’d Rather have punto at SS and Harris at 2nd if that’s the way we are going to go.
if thats the best they can come up with for a line up this team/organization is pathetic and they should be embrassed. If thats what the put on the field it will be a joke when we play Cleveland and Detriot.
Here’s to the day when good ol’ Carl isn’t around to ruin the twinkies
I still don’t see why the Twins are so unwilling to bat Mauer second. He seems like a protypical #2 hitter to me. He makes contact and has good bat control, plus he is perfect for hit and run situations. Right now he doesn’t have the power to bat third.
what
Carl isn’t running the twinkies, Bill Smith is and Terry Ryan was before him. Carl makes about as many front office moves as you and I do.
Mauer also might be the best leadoff hitter the team has right now too - high on base percentage, not great speed, but I believe double-digit steals a couple years ago…
Mauer, Harris, Young, Cuddyer, Morneau, Kubel, ………
Please no Boof in the rotation next year!!!
**old joke**
I wouldn’t trade anything for Coco Crisp…Cinnimon Toast Crunch and Lucky Charms are so much better
Victor
I think Gardy is going to stick to his Right Left Right Left batting order that he likes so much. I would guess the order today would be
CF
Mauer
Young
Morneau
Cuddyer
Kubel
3B
SS
2B
I still don’t know who is playing where when it comes to 2B, 3B, and SS.
Why trade for Crisp, when Corey Patterson is available and will be cheaper? And I’d love to see Smith trade Nathan for Bill Hall, and slot him in at 3B. I don’t have a lot of faith in that Detroit defense, and while Cleveland’s clearly a better team, it’s certainly concievable that that lineup and staff could win 90-95 games, which would put the team right in the hunt for the playoffs.
jama- right, but who hired Smith and Ryan? Carl may not directly make any front office moves but he does indirectly. The organization needs to be fixed from the top down not the bottom up.
i hope nobody in clev or det. read this they will have to be put on suicide watch from fear.
Nathan for Bill Hall to play 3B sounds good. Pick-up the phone now!
The Brewers also have a young guy named Rottino that plays every position but pitcher and he can hit better than Punto - let’s throw in Punto with nathan for Hall and Rottino. Then we have a back-up when Mauer hurts his leg by early May.
early may? don’t they normally start in early April? he should be on the DL by April 10th.
Being optimistic with Joey Sideburns.
3/31/08 - Opening Day against Torii Hunter and the Angels on My29/WFTC. Counting down the days…
For the Twins 3B vacancy, what would it take to pry Brandon Inge from the ‘Tigers? Or would Dave Dombrowski positively not trade a player of value within the division?
How much is Rowand asking for?
i think inge has a 6m yr contract kind of spendy for what he was last yr.
is it possible the twins won’t tender rincon?
unless Mauer comes into spring training with a new mindset at driving the ball into RF he should bat second. he’s a contact hitter with no power. i repeat, no power. i think it’s there somewhere but unless Vavra and Gardy really push him to try and turn on inside pitches and not be so maddeningly patient at the plate he’ll never show it. I’d really like to see Delmon in the 3 spot after Mauer and before Morney.
“Just a reminder that the Angels and Dodgers are among the teams trying to find a third baseman…”
If they don’t want their 3B prospects we’ll take them. it would be nice to have fall back peices like Wood and Laroche. I know people have been speculating there’s something wrong with Laroche or else the Dodgers would play him but maybe he’s just not ready for the Show. Ready or not, he could still start for us. He’s definitely farther along than Buscher.
NATHAN FOR COREY KOSKIE!
I still don’t understand why Mauer isn’t moving to 3B. He’s just going to get injured behind the plate again. And we have a phenomenal backup catcher and a decent 3rd option.
Ok I was kidding. But really, what about Busscher? He hit like .270 last year, seemed like a natural line-drive hitter, solid short swing, slightly shaky at third….why aren’t we hearing more about him?
I think it makes much more sense for Harris to play second and Punto/Casilla to fight over short. Cassilla played short all through the minors and is defensively solid there. Punto is stetched there, but hopefully Casilla will step up and take that starting job swiftly anyway. Harris could be solid at second and hit well.
Inge has 3 years left on his contract at (i think) about 6mil per. Rowand wants years. probably in the range of 5/50-60mil. If we could sign him for 2 or 3 years, I say go for it.
Reading Joe’s rotation and line up shows that the Twins must get three things for a Santana trade….
1) One young starting pitcher to eventually replace Santana
2) An everyday position player for CF, 3B, SS, or 2B (in that order)
3) One really good prospect or two lower level prospects. 75% of these “prospects” wash out and never dent the bigs so quantity increases the chances of finding a player good enough to stick.
Twins have enough bullpen help but not enough good starting pitchers. Maybe a Rincon trade? Maybe trading Matt Moses or a draft pick like Detroit did?
Don’t you think Perkins has a better chance at the rotation than Boof? I also like Young in LF more than Cuddy. Young has decent speed for a big guy and in the dome that is what we need in LF. Rowand is a Twins type player- I like him more than Cocco.I think harris is the 3B, Punto SS & Casilla 2B.
Casilla 2B
Mauer C
Young LF
Morneau 1B
Cuddy RF
Kubel DH
Rowand CF
Harris 3B
Punto SS
Santana,Baker,Liriano,Slowey,Perkins
This line up can win 81-85 games
Monroe wont be around. That was the last attempt at keeping Tori around. I know its within the division, but Detroit has an extra 3B.
Sheehan at BP thinks Pridie will be the Twins starting CF and has this to say about him today:
Rob (Newton,NJ): Pridie opening day CF for the Twins?
Joe Sheehan: Yes. (And I got a huge sell job on him in Nashville by someone who I have a lot of respect for.)
This is how I see it at this moment.
1. Pridie/CF
2. Casilla/SS
3. Mauer/C
4. Cuddyer/RF
5. Morneu/1B
6. Young/LF
7. Kubel DH vs Right/Monroe DH vs. Left
8. Harris/3B
9. Punto/2B
We still need a SS, 3B, CF. If we get a 3B Harris moves to 2B and Punto becomes super sub as he should be, not everyday.
Rowand isn’t Torii but he’s twice the player of Crisp/Span(ugh!)/??? Rowand is 30yrs.old and Torii is 32. If we were going to give Torii $15mil a yr., why not sign Rowand for $10mil/yr for four years? Rowand averages 20-25 jacks per year plus he has a good glove. Remember his catch in CF where he planted his face on the fence for a ball. Twins like gritty guys, eh?
i keep seeing the yanks need relievers wonder why nathan and santana couldn’t be packaged it seems easier to include jackson and kennedy in the deal along with melky mantle and hughes.
Hunter……
28HRs/107RBIs/.287avg/.334OBP/.505SLG.
Rowand……
27HRs/89RBIs/.309avg/.374OBP/.515SLG.
Hunter has a better glove but not by that much. I think it’s about time the Twins actually make a productive FA move and sign Rowand. This one would make sense unlike Batista/Sierra/White/Offerman/Boone/etc…
This *could* be a bad-ass lineup if we get crisp or a better on-base speedster to bat in front of the m+m’s. detroit looks loaded now but cleveland will have a hangover for sure, KC will be a thorn in the ass, but this lineup could contend for a wild card. also punto looks good riding the pine, think about it gardy
Forget Crisp! He’ll be working with Lew Ford in Japan two years from now.
Moving Cuddy to 3B makes great sense. There is an urban myth that Cuddy does not perform as good offensively when he plays third compared to when he plays RF. His splits ( BA/OBP/SLUG 3B: .263/.329/.442, RF .275/.352/.452) would indicate that he does not loose much at 3B. The other 3B options the Twins have are to sign a free agent (Mike Lamb would probably be the only upgrade here) or to have Buscher and Matt Macri (the guy who came from Colorado from the Ramon Ortiz trade and doing very well in the AFL) battle it out. I do not see a return of a starting 3B in a Santana trade, since the only teams that have available 3Bs are in the West coast (Dodgers) and the word is that Johan does not want to go to the west coast.
As far as middle infield goes, I see a battle between Casilla, Harris, Punto, Tolbert and Plouffe in the spring training with Harris pretty much guaranteed a spot. Harris at 2B and Casilla at SS would probably be the best offensive combination. No worthwhile free agents are available
Centerfield would probably come outside the organization, either by a signing or a trade. Pridie would probably be the best in-the-organization option, but he might not be ready at this point or given the dislike of the current staff to play prospects at the ML level might not be an option. Getting someone like a Kenny Lofton or a Milton Bradley would go long ways… They both can spell the corner outfielders and DH when necessary. Also they would add some veteran perspective that this team lacks. I see the other options (Rowland; overrated, his numbers will drop away from Citizen’s park to Kubel levels) not so great…
Pitching is interesting if Johan doesn’t get traded. Both the rotation and the bullpen would be overflown. Rincon really has to go to make room for some more young arms in the bullpen. Someone needs to be groomed for the future closer role (Neshek, Crain, Guerrier) even though my gut (no pun intended) says that Boof might be the next Twins closer (long discussion, but he fits the profile: former starter -most closers were- 2 plus pitches, the rest iffy, questionable stamina)
There needs to be a better bench. The Twins have long been carrying “defensive replacement”-type of people (Al Newman, Denny Hockin, Nick Punto) who cannot hit above the Mendoza line for some reason. I hope that the signings of Monroe and the talks with Luis Rodriguez change that trend…
I think that the Twins are better this year that last year and if healthy can contend. A “wild-card” is the Mitchell report. Everyone has already crowned the Tigers as champions; what if 5-6 of their regulars are suspended for 3 weeks on the beginning of the season? That’s a long hill to climb…
Since 3B is such a tricky hole for the twins to fill, maybe it is time to move mauer to 3B and have redmond start. He is a perfectly capable catcher and his bat is better than some of the regulars they trot out there. That would only leave them with holes in at least one starting pitcher spot (not a whole lot of faith in Slowey at this point and Bonser is at least questionable after last season), center field (tyner??? omg…), short stop (haven’t seen Harris yet), and then of course they would need a backup catcher (Didn’t they finally release Hintz?) but I’m sure there is somebody out there…
I agree with Jama, Patrick and others who say Mauer should bat 2nd. He just hasnt shown the power to be in the 3 hole.
He hits into too many DPs, which could be a problem in the second slot too, but not as much as three
Not to mention moving Mauer would add years to his career, right? BTW, has anyone looked at the Tiger’s depth chart???? If they don’t go to the world series somebody majorly screwed up.
how would Mauer become the best catcher ever as suggested by the SI cover if he moved to third?
Who is the best pure third baseman in the game now? I dont consider A Rod a pure third baseman, of course anyone would be happy to have him at third, but other than he? Wright? (and i do mean offensively for power and defensively for fielding)
the way I see the lineup right now is:
Alexi Casilla SS
Delmon Young LF
Joe Mauer C
Michael Cuddyer RF
Justin Morneau 1B
Jason Kubel DH)
Brendan Harris 2B
Jason Pridie CF
Brian Buscher 3B
Mike Redmond (Bench)
Nick Punto (Bench)
Jason Tyner (Bench)
Garrett Jones (Bench)
Craig Monroe (Bench)
Johan Santana (SP)
Francisco Liriano (SP)
Scott Baker (SP)
Boof Bonser (SP)
Kevin Slowey (SP)
Joe Nathan (CL)
Pat Neshek (RP)
Jesse Crain (RP)
Matt Guerrier (RP)
Dennys Reyes (RP)
Glen Perkins (RP/Spot starter)
Who is the best pure third baseman in the game now?
interesting question 
David Wright
Ryan Zimmerman
Scott Rolen
Mike Lowell
Aramis Ramirez
Rolen would be great in a Twins’ uniform. He is available (probably below cost right now)…
Thrylos98:
Good lineup. Barring a trade or acquisition, I do think Harris will start the year at 3B, and Buscher will start at AAA. I disagree with those who think Cuddyer should move to 3rd. Leave him in right, put Young in LF. If worst comes to worst, we can still start Punto at 2B.
Again, barring a trade or acquisition, I see Thrylos’ pitching list is what we’ve got, except Blackburn may break into the starting five, especially if Liriano isn’t ready yet.
B. Buscher was improving defensively last season. No sense in not giving him a long look at 3B. I’d much rather have You, Crisp & Cuddy in the OF. No offense to Cuddy but he isn’t the answer at 3B.
Also, sign David Eckstein to play SS. Please no Punto.
Just say no to Eckstein.
Awful defensively.
Mediocre offensively.
Little-to-no speed.
But he’s the kind of guy that Gardy loves, so he must be worth 8 or 9 million per year.
I’d rather put a water cooler at short than sign David Eckstein. Their arm strength is about the same and they’re about the same size. A water cooler would be much cheaper though.
Cuddyer will never see 3B again. We need to fill that internally or make a trade. In his prime, Rolen was one of the best 3B in the league. He’s a little expensive and I don’t know what the Cardinals want for him, but they seem eager to unload. He’d be a veteran presence in the clubhouse and Gardy isn’t exactly Tony La Russa so they’d probably get along. After we trade Johan we’ll have some money to spend. That’s who I would pursue. Rowand, Inge, and Eckstein are all overrated with Rowand being the best of the bunch. I say give Pridie the job in CF and see what he can do.
Casilla
Mauer
Young
Morneau
Rolen
Cuddyer
Kubel
Harris
Punto
Cuddyer should have always been a 3rd baseman. When he was there before, he was no different then A-Rod. He booted a lot of balls. Once he got settled in though, he was outstanding. Coco does nothing for me, the Twins would be better off signing Corey Patterson or going with Jason Pridie or Denard Span. Punto should never be a starter again even though he has a great glove. Give Plouffe a try. Liriano throws in the mid to high 90s, no reason to start him in the minors. Deal with him adjusting to everything and re-gaining his touch at the major league level.
1: Santana
2: Liriano
3: Baker
4: Bonser
5: Slowey
#1 Patterson/Pridie/Span-CF
#2 Mauer-C
#3 Young-RF
#4 Morneau-1B
#5 Cuddyer-3B
#6 Kubel-LF
#7 Harris-2B
#8 Buscher-DH
#9 Plouffe-SS
What a fireball topic. I didn’t read anyone else’s comments yet so forgive me… I just had to comment straight ahead.
Moving Cuddyer to 3rd base… if he could keep his offensive numbers at 16-20 homers and 80-100 RBIs would make him go from a 5 million dollar outfielder to a 10 million dollar 3rd baseman, lol. That’s how sad that position is.
I see him moving to 3rd if his agent reads this, lol.
However I don’t think it’s a good idea. Pedro Feliz is a 6 million dollar 3rd baseman who can hit like Monroe if not slightly better, and is a better fielding 3rd baseman than Cuddyer, so rather than resigning Monroe, use that 4 million, plus another 2-3 million and sign Feliz. 3rd base is solved.
And though I’d still demand Ellsbury, I’d probably eventually cave for Coco, Lester, Lowrie, Masterson, and maybe try and get Moss or another midline prospect to take the deal or make it Buckholtz and then it’s all good… Crisp would keep Span out of the outfield, and Lowrie could keep Punto out of the lineup… that could make up for the 5 wins that we would lose with this team by having Lester in the Rotation instead of Santana.
Plus Crisp is a lousy leadoff hitter, so that would suck having him there
cf Crisp
2b Harris
ca Mauer
lf Young
1b Morneau
rf Cuddyer
3b Feliz
dh Kubel
ss Lowrie
with Casilla in AAA getting experience… Punto and Tolbert battling for the bench infielder
Hopefully they can sign Tony Clark to be the part time DH, and power off the bench and backup to Morneau if he should get hurt, or need a day off…
so a bench of
Tony Clark (jones)
Tolbert
Tyner
Redmond
as the bench
And I liked your pitching unless we can trade away Chubby Boof, slowey, and Nathan for a real CF/3rd/SP
Nico, I don’t have a horrible problem with Patterson, but you can’t let any of those CF’s you mentioned bat leadoff… Coco Crisp is a better leadoff hitter than those guys… ugh.
my opinion on the 3rd base list…
1. Ryan Zimmerman (price)
2. Wright (best all around player)
3. Ramierez still kind of underrated by MLB, but slightly overpaid
4. Rolen if healthy the 2nd best overall 3rd to Wright
5. Lowell had a killer year, but he’s old, he is destined for an injury
Third Base:
1. A-Rod
2. Wright
3. Atkins
4. Ramirez
5. Lowell
if fielding doesn’t matter
1. A-Rod
2. Wright
3. Cabrera
4. Atkins
5. Braun - til he gets moved to the outfield
I think Cory Patterson would be a horrible pickup. I don’t have a high opinion of a lot of our options. Patterson takes a horrible approach every at bat. He’ll hit one out occasionally but when he doesn’t do that he flails at balls trying really hard to hit one out. For a team that doesn’t work the count enough (minus Mauer who works it too much) Patterson would not be a good fit. He’s got a very solid glove but so does Crisp. Patterson had an OPS below .700 last year. I’d rather have Crisp than Patterson, and that’s saying something.
In my opinion Wright is the best 3B out there (minus A-Rod). Zimmerman has a huge ceiling. That being said, I’ve always liked Aramis Ramirez the most. I don’t even have a good reason and I’d be stupid to take him ahead of Wright, but I probably would anyway. He can hit to all fields and is very good with RISP. Decent fielder too.
I’ve read Cuddy is hard of hearing in his left ear.
Explains his comfort in RF.
And troubles elsewhere.
Interesting projections…couple of notes.
1) If I recall 06, the Twins were adamant about having Liriano and Santana split in the rotation. I imagine Baker would take this job (provided they don’t aquire a guy like Hughes, at which point he slots in there and Slowey or Boof is bumped.
2) Coco? Eeeew. I thought the Twins were persuing Rowand? I know it’s partially a dream of mine, but it seems like he’s within striking distance.
3) Cuddyer at 3rd? Eeew 2. I propose the following shift. Monroe cut, Kubel to DH, Young to left, Cuddyer to right. Young is…well…young. He can adapt. I’ve heard he has good speed but trouble with a glove. There’s less room in left to cover so he probaly could adjust. And it keeps Cuddyer as far from third as humanly possbile (he wants this, the Twins want this, we all want this)
4) Buscher at 3rd. It’s a reshuffling type season. Keep Buscher there and let’s see if he can adjust.
5) Ditto to Casilla at 2nd. Punto is a hot button issue in himself. He has to have a darn good spring to weasel back into the lineup. Fool me once, shame on you…fool me twice, let’s hope the Twins don’t get fooled again. Casilla needs his make or break moment as well. If he’s suppoed to lead off ni the future, show it.
My lineup?
Casilla (2B)
Harris (SS)
Mauer (C)
Cuddyer (RF)
Morneau (1B)
Rowand (CF)
Young (LF)
Kubel (DH)
Buscher (3B)
With Cuddyer/Rowand/Young/Kubel, it was suprisingly tough to put that together.
I like that we’re starting to talk about keeping Santana around. The sooner the Twins commit to that, the better their chances of filling in some of these question marks with trades/free agents.
Also, I think the Twins should seriously try to give Santana an extension. His proportion of the overall payroll doesn’t have to be much different than Radke’s 5 or 6 years ago. Check out:
http://www.senseinthecenter.blogspot.com
for further analysis.
The more I think about this, the more I feel it’s time to just pull the trigger on the Johan for Ellsbury package. Jacoby will be here no less than five years. His upside and what he offers the team are wonderful. This is a guy that has wheels and will be on base 40% of the time. He’s an excellent defensive CF. He’s as marketable as Joe Mauer, perhaps more so because he actually has a personality. And, between Jacoby and Alexi, they could steal 100 bases a year.
Bringing this kid here is a no-lose situation. Fans will fall in love with him and forget all about Torii in a year or two. Look at how quickly the prickly Boston fans have adopted him. But at some point, letting go of Johan for a future all-star is going to look like a great move. No Coco. No Patterson. Just get Ellsbury and those prospects! It’s time to make a move like this, because we’re going to end up with nothing for Johan if we don’t make a move. That’s reality at this point.
Really, we have enough pitching in this organization already. It’s time to trust it and get a real offense. And the more offense we have, the more those young pitchers can relax. When they relax, they perform.
And the sooner we establish that we’re going with young players, the sooner we can get Nick Punto out of the line-up forever!!
Nico, man, you are too bright to be on this board. Your insight is keen. Nice job.
Cuddy is deaf in his left ear.
if we don’t trade Johan– I expect Pirdie to be our centerfielder. The Twins are really high on him. I wouldn’t be surprised if he is our leadoff hitter–
Rolan has a no trade clause. He is not coming here. Plus I’ve soured a lot on him and his attitude. He can’t get along with Tony La Russa, and theres reports he didn’t get along with his coach in Philly. At his age, injury concerns, and cost. DEF not worth it.
Honestly I don’t have any concerns about going into 08 with Pirdie at CF. I’m not excited about Coco or Melky. So I think if there is a trade for Santana we leave CF out of the equation unless we’re talking Ellsbury or an elite CF. Speaking of Ellsbury he just signed with Boras so I would concerned about that development.
3rd base we could have competition with Buscher, Watkins, and Macri. Although I would still like to see what Blalock would cost in prospects.
Boof should go to the bullpen. Future closer? Maybe. I just think Perkins and others will progress better. I hope I’m wrong as Boof has very good stuff.
Could get interesting. I wouldn’t mind signing a long term contract. 6 years 120 million with a mutual option on year 7 for another 25 million. A trade clause buyout of 5 million. Once Liriano proves his health and effectiveness than we trade Santana. His value goes up (as he’s under contract). And after watching the Red Sox win AGAIN, the Yankees will open of the vault!!!!
My lineup?
Casilla (2B)
Harris (SS)
Mauer (C)
Cuddyer (RF)
Morneau (1B)
Rowand (CF)
Young (LF)
Kubel (DH)
Buscher (3B)
that would be the lowest scoring lineup in possibly all of baseball. also, young will hit #3 or #5
I’m happy to see so much discussion of baseball (and so little whining about you-know-who).
Joe,
You have 5 bats in the middle of that lineup that ought to be able to produce some runs. Absent a Johan trade, I don’t think we’re going to see your #1 or hitter on the Twins roster, and I’ll be surprised if the #8 winds up with the club (I’m hoping the Twins won’t overpay for Monroe & I’m doubting he’ll take something reasonable).
8, 9, 1 & 2 are big question marks (as we all know, once the lineup rolls, those 4 bat in order the rest of the game). We got a lot of production out of those slots in 2006 and significantly less in 2007.
Even with the loss of Hunter, I suspect the offense will be better than 2007, not as good as 2006 (post, say, June 15) - all we need to more or less cover for the loss of Hunter is for a number of guys to pick it up a bit. If 2006 was the “top end” for a number of our guys - - - - and maybe it was - - - - I suspect 2007 was their bottom. They won’t have to improve a lot to become good enough to win 5 or 6 more games.
Pitching has to get the rest. Even if ‘Cisco was only 90% of what he was, his presence will help the rotation. I could see pitching adding 5, perhaps 10 wins to the total.
Problem is, that puts us at 90 wins … that’s about as high as I see the current roster going, and that’s if just about everything goes right. Any problems / injuries / etc., and you’re looking at .500, plus or minus.
And then there’s the big problem: the Indians & Tigers both look like 90 + win teams at their “bottom end”.
I’ve always been under the impression that if a team is to compete, you need to get wins out of your starters.
As the Twins now stand…can…with the Twins lineup…
Johan 20-10 (5 no decisions)
Liriano 12-6 (7 no decisions)
Baker 14-12 (9 no decisions)
Boof 10-15 (10 no decisions)
Slowey 16-9 (10 no decisions)
If that happened, the Twins would be SWEET.
Having Perkins open the season as the 5th/swing starter and maybe go 5-3 until Liriano is called up on May 15th?
77 wins from a starting rotation. I know I’m thinking highly of Slowey, but think he can make it.
With Nathan in the fold and Neshek, Guerrier, Crain, Reyes and someone, the Twins still have the best bullpen for 3/4s of the season.
Love seeing the Vinny Rottino shout-out. I played with that guy for one fall until he was signed by the Brewers (2002 I believe). Cannon for an arm and a very patient approach at the plate. He would be a great bench guy to grab if a trade to Milwaukee would ever go through!!
sorry BD, I have slacked a bit on whining about Carl, but Dan Barreiro has been doing a nice job on KFAN in my absence
inge at third. Send some minor leaguer to Detroit. Have Detroit eat 1/4 to 1/3 of the contract.
With Castillo, Hunter, Silva, Garza and Bartlett all gone, this team went from thin on talent to downright scrawny.
The pitching even looks worse than the hitting at this point. A couple of those young pitchers are going to have to take a giant step forward.
Cuddyer isn’t going to play 3B and Harris won’t be at SS. Harris might get 2B if he shows some range and the ability to turn two.
Carl could save more money by trading Cuddyer, Morneau, Mauer, Neshek in addition to Nathan and Johan, all for prospects.
afterall, we wont win this year against the tigers anyway, and the Class A prospects might be good some day. In fact, we coudl throw in Slowey and Baker, and Kubel
Did the Twins gain home run power when they traded for Young and Harris?…… No. Here’s why:
Tropicana Field:
LF line: - 315 ft.
LF power alley: - 370 ft.
Metrodome:
LF line: - 343 ft.
LF power alley: - 385 ft.
Delmon hit 4 home runs last year on the road in 330 AB. He’s not a home run hitter, he’s a line drive hitter. The Metrodome is going to be tough on him for hitting any HR. LF is much bigger than LF at Tropicana and the big curtain in RF will stop most anything off a line driver hitters bat going the other way.
Harris’ season was interesting. He hit two dings in the first three days of the season. Common when pitchers are still looking for their control and make mistakes. Then he had a drought until the last day in May. Suddenly he banged 6 HR in 19 days! Word got out and pitchers quickly figured him out. He didn’t hit another for the next 2 and 1/2 months (big drought). In Sept he banged out 4 more. We should all know by now that September hitting is next to meaningless.
“It’s easy to get fooled in September” - Terry Ryan.
Based on their history, it looks highly unlikely that either player will hit HR’s in double digits next season.
Bad news? Not at all. As far as wins and losses go, it doesn’t matter if they both hit zero HR.
Half the players on this team will probably see their OPS go up 100 points from last year, including Mauer, Morneau, Kubel and even LNP (I think a .660 OPS for Punto is attainable lol).
People forget what a great prospect Kubel was before his injury. He had a higher minor league OPS than Delmon Young, albeit he didn’t rocket through the system quite as fast. He finally started showing what he’s capable of in the second half. BTW his line as a DH last year was 302/385/500 in 133 PA. When was the last time the Twins had a DH with those numbers?
I nominate Kenny Lofton for cf.
If I was Gardy, I’d at least try to convince Cuddyer to try 3b for a few spring games, but as the team sits it would probably be Busher or Marci fighting over the spot. In all the major leagues last the there were only 15 qualifying 3b who combined a .750+ OPS with a .950+ fielding pct. so don’t feel so bad about not having a major league 3b because half the majors didn’t have one last year either, including the Marlins (Cabrera’s fielding pct. was .941)
Speaking of the Cabrera, don’t go handing the Tigers the central division just yet. Ordonez Granderson and Polonco had career years, Sheffield and I Rod are well into their decline phase. The Tigers needed Cabrera just to maintain what they had last year.
First; why would the Twins move one of the best right fielders in the AL to 3rd base? Leave Cuddyer in RF, Young in LF, and work on finding a 3rd baseman. Cuddyer has admitted that he did not feel comfortable at 3rd, why force him to try again when he is doing well in RF? Second; do not move Mauer from catcher! Why move a catcher that changes the opposing teams running game because they’re afraid to run on him? Redmond is a decent backup catcher, but he is not an everyday catcher.
And finally, why would the Twins put Delmon Young in the third or fourth hole and put all of that pressure on him? Last year was his rookie year, let him learn to be a hitter first before making him carry your team. Sometimes thing look good on paper, but don’t forget there is reality. Young is still a kid and to ask him to be your 3-hitter or clean-up hitter is unrealistic.
What about Pedro Feliz of the Giants at 3rd? Someone mentioned earlier that he might fit. He would be good for a couple of years until someone from within steps up. He’s a FA and shouldn’t cost that much to sign if they unload Santana’s salary. Don’t forget about Atkins with the Rockies. He is a legitimate power hitter and good fielding 3rd baseman and would be worthy of a serious trade. He’s young (28) and already established himself as a legitimate #3 or #4 hitter. They have Ian Stewart waiting in the wings, so they should be willing to part with him for the right offer.
Feliz would be OK, unfortunately he’s a bigger out machine than Fatista at the plate. At least he doesn’t have concrete blocks for feet.
i totally agree that feliz is an excellent option for 3b.
i say that if we can get reyes & solid prospects for santana, use the freed up salary to get feliz and rowand.
snepp,
Glad you noticed the similarity with Batista. I named Feliz, Batista lite. His hitting stats are almost as good as Batista’s, but are just a little less filling. Pedro DOES have concrete blocks for feet, just blocks that are a little lighter than Tony’s.
To put it in perspective, Punto had an OBP 1 point higher than Feliz last season.
Yes, this is the Twins, but we have to try to dream bigger dreams.
Now that Detroit has Cabrera, whats the chances of the Twins getting Inge?
The twins will not get Inge. There is no way the Tigers will trade within the division.
if you were going to move cuddyer, 2nd base is actually a better position for him, he played there a lot in 04 and did fairly well. it may be a good spot for him, cassila plays short doesnt he?
2b isn’t the problem. Casilla, punto, Harris…any of these guys could do well there. We need SS, 3B and CF!
It is time to move Mauer to 3rd. Start Redmond and get both their good bats in the lineup. Mauer is enough of a natural athlete to become a great third baseman. The move would lengthen his career and allow us to watch that sweet swing for more at bats per season.
Cuddyer at 2B? I don’t think the Twins want a 275 pound second baseman. He couldn’t turn two when he was 230 lbs.
Mauer to 3B would be a complete waste of talent. He doesn’t want to move and the Twins sure don’t want to move him. His injuries have occurred while running and sliding. No known connection with his being a catcher. He might get hurt more often at 3B.
give pridie a chance in center, cassilla at 2nd harris at 3rd,….all young with upside. get ready for 2009/2010. johan well be gone but c.c.’s days are numbered in cleveland & detroit could get old quickly. ( of course trading johan & nathan for young talent would help us reload faster)
“Mauer to 3B would be a complete waste of talent. He doesn’t want to move and the Twins sure don’t want to move him. His injuries have occurred while running and sliding. No known connection with his being a catcher. He might get hurt more often at 3B.”
Not true Craig…his first knee injury occurred while he was behind the plate; I believe it was ‘04 or ‘05, and he was playing a foul ball when he tore his knee…
Furthermore, the constant wear and tear of catching can wreak havoc on a player’s knees, not to mention shoulders, fingers, etc.
One could actually make the argument that by Mauer catching, THAT is a complete waste of talent. Perhaps his talents are better suited for a less “taxing” position.
It is time to move Mauer to 3rd. Start Redmond and get both their good bats in the lineup
If Redmond was playing every day his bat would go south in a hurry. And he is not as good a defensive catcher as Mauer. At this point defense is probably Mauer’s strength, which says a lot about his defense since he has also won a batting championship. Maybe the Twins should move Santana to third base, there is a lot less risk there than as a pitcher…
I’m not even advocating that we should move Mauer…I’m just attempting to refute something CRAIG said.
Craig, Cuddyer may not be a 2nd baseman, or even a 3rd baseman, but he’s nowhere near 270.
I’m 6′2 227, and I’ve been around Cuddyer last year, and he’s not much heavier than I am if at all, and he’s an inch taller than I am… no matter what the baseball card might say, lol.
Not sure what’s going on with the trade front, but I’m pretty impressed with Smith so far. Could he have gotten something for Santana? Sure, but he didn’t get what HE WANTED, and he didn’t pull the trigger for less. Could it come back to bite him? Sure, but he’s already showed more testicular fortitude than Terry Ryan ever had.
TT- amen.
If Redmond was a 400 plate appearance 300 hitting catcher he’d be getting 7 million a year from one of the 25 teams that don’t have a single decent catcher… let alone being our backup.
Todd,
Mauers first injury came from running and sliding while trying to catch a foul pop. Don’t third basemen try to catch foul pops? The fact that he was catching had nothing to do with it, at least to any one’s knowledge. My original statement which you quoted is absolutely true.
Mauer is the best catcher the Twins have had in the 47 years of their existence. Hitting, fielding, running, throwing. He is not the just the best all-around, he is the best at every single skill.
No Twins catcher has ever even come close to his skill level. Trust me on this. I’ve seen every catcher the Twins have had, with the possible exception of a marginal player up for a game or two.
Mauer has had NO serious catcher related injuries.
To move Mauer to another position is a waste of a tremendous talent. Terry Ryan spelled this all out for people a long time ago. Some people understand this right away, others will never get it.
BC,
Unlike many players who seem to drop weight during the season, Cuddyer gains. He really ballooned up last season. I think the guy was pushing three bills by the end of the season. He no longer could move well and his play suffered.
Cuddyer is an excellent base-runner with decent speed. He couldn’t run the bases well by the end of last year and he had lots of trouble running down balls in the OF.
Michael usually comes into spring training camp in okay shape. I think he diets down in the off-season.
Cuddyer couldn’t run the bases last year because of that stupid summersalt he did in June. He got hurt, hurt his back a little, and the jarring of base running was tough… and that’s why the rest of his numbers were down so much.
I saw him in late August, and seriously, he’s not nearly that big… maybe 240 tops, but he’s not that big. He just had to wear a vest to keep the ribs, and back stimulate the spine.
Okay, whatever he weighs, he’s going to be playing in the OF next season. He won’t be waddling around in the infield.
Why is Mauer batting third? He is a protypical #2 hitter. I don’t get it. Baby Jesus Mauer has no power, and knocks in very few runs. Why in the bloody H is he in the three slot????? Please someone give me a good reason other than he is the most overrated Twin of all time.
I agree with thyrlos98’s lineup:
Alexi Casilla SS
Delmon Young LF
Joe Mauer C
Michael Cuddyer RF
Justin Morneau 1B
Jason Kubel DH
Brendan Harris 2B
Jason Pridie CF
Brian Buscher 3B
Mike Redmond (Bench)
Nick Punto (Bench)
Jason Tyner (Bench)
Garrett Jones (Bench)
Craig Monroe (Bench)
Johan Santana (SP)
Francisco Liriano (SP)
Scott Baker (SP)
Boof Bonser (SP)
Kevin Slowey (SP)
Joe Nathan (CL)
Pat Neshek (RP)
Jesse Crain (RP)
Matt Guerrier (RP)
Dennys Reyes (RP)
Glen Perkins (RP/Spot starter)
Pirdie in CF seems iffy to me, but he’s the best we’ve got. I know the Twins like him, but is he ready to become a starter? I guess we’re about to find out!
Harris will not be our SS — he doesn’t have the range to play that position at the ML level. That’s why Tampa Bay traded for Bartlett.
Casilla at SS also seems iffy to me. I figure he deserves the chance to prove himself, and if he’s not ready yet, we can afford one bad bat in the lineup (Punto).
I don’t understand all the Mauer-hate. He’s one of the best pure hitters in the game, and 31% of his hits last year went for extra bases. Once we move into the new (smaller) stadium, a lot of those doubles will turn into home runs.
Buscher at 3B also looks iffy. The 2008 version of the Twins will look a lot like the 2007 version: too many marginal players in starting roles.
