Santana’s market becoming clear
Posted on December 15th, 2007 – 9:15 AMBy Joe Christensen
Yesterday, Hank Steinbrenner the Newark Star Ledger what many people have long suspected: The Yankees aren’t out of the Johan Santana sweepstakes. “We’re still considering it,” Steinbrenner said. “I haven’t closed the door completely on Santana.” The story adds:
A person who has spoken to Minnesota management and asked not to be named because he is not authorized to speak for the team said the Yankees told the Twins they would get back into the Santana talks if they can shed the contract of left fielder Hideki Matsui.
I heard the same thing from the Twins this week. I know it’s surprising to see the Yankees concerned about money, but they were hoping to trade Matsui to San Francisco before the Giants signed Aaron Rowand. Just spit-balling here, but the Phillies and Padres are reportedly the two teams trying to sign free agent Geoff Jenkins. Perhaps the team that misses out on Jenkins would be a potential Matsui suitor.
The point is, the Yankees are trying to make a Santana deal happen again. And if you look at the pitching market, it makes sense. Oakland traded Dan Haren to Arizona. That leaves Santana and Erik Bedard as the two top pitchers available on the trade market. Seems unlikely the Orioles would trade Bedard to a division rival, so the Yankees might need to move on Santana, or risk seeing him in a Red Sox uniform for the next seven years.
Another development to follow is the Hiroki Kuroda derby. The Dodgers and Mariners are both trying to sign the Japanese pitcher, and the team that misses out might make a last-ditch effort for Santana. Once Kuroda lands, the Twins should have a crystal clear picture of Santana’s trade market, and I’m guessing they will take their best offer, with the whole thing settled by Christmas.
458 Responses to "Santana’s market becoming clear"
Id take Matsui.
it would create more revenue..
cept then we would have too many outfielders..
if we get matsui, i still want melky, and hughes..
matsui/melky/hughes..
we can trade them monroe
It seems waiting paid off. It made little sense to trade him before the other pitchers on the market were dealt/signed. Their competition only drove down his price. Once he’s the only legitimate starter left, the real bidding will begin. I wouldn’t be surprised to see three or four teams upping their offers. I’m really glad Smith did not flinch at Hollerin’ Hank’s scare tactics.
I think the Haren trade is great for the Twins. It shows what kind of prospects you need to give up to get a top line pitcher. It also limits the Yanks and Sox options. The only real impact pitcher that I think those teams are interested in is Santana. I see him getting traded in the next week.
Makes sense to me, Joe. Seems Bill Smith rolled the dice by walking away at the winter meetings and gambled that Haren and Bedard would not end up in Boston or New York, leaving those teams both needing to seriously consider upping their offers for Santana. Let’s hope that’s the way this turns out. I do give Smith credit for not just sitting on his hands while the Santana issue plays out. He went out and filled a couple of holes that he wasn’t likely to fill in any of the most viable Santana deals.
MH
There is no reason for the Twins to take back Matsui. He just signed a large extension and there would be nowhere to play him. Young is in LF, Cuddy in RF and Kubel is DHing. I like those 3 options for their price range better than Matsui who I think is making $14 million per year.
cant we just cease this silly talk of trading Johan?
How many times do you have a hall of famer in your midst? Maybe once a generation. What, we have three bona fide Twins in the Hall in over 45 years of Twindom.
Give him the 140 for 7 years. Before long, we will be paying 20 mill a year for a Silva type pitcher, and if we sign Johan now, we will have him for 20 mill. People like Jim Cricket make valid points in that case, Johans agent will be whining in three years,,, let him whine.
This is the market. It is ridiculous, it is basically obscene, the money players get. But this is the crazy, upside down business where poor taxpayers pay for stadiums for billionaire owners and millionaire players and billionaire owners are wlling to pay those millionaire owners.
In four years, 150 mill will be the average payroll and 20 mill wont seem as big of a chunk of that pie. If the Pohlads dont want to play in this sandbox, sell it to someone who does.
Jama
yeah i understand that..
but we have money to spend, and if we wont spend it on an infield, matsui is atleast a legitimate .300 hitter. 20+hr
plus he creates more revenue..
dont get me wrong. i dont like the 14mil a year..
but we im not against taking back matsui
I think the Twins should take back Matsui. He doesn’t replace anyone in the deal however. The trade would be Hughes, Cabrera, Kennedy, Matsui. We could spin Godzilla off on somebody else, then.
I hope the Real Craig doesn’t make it into this thread. The intelligence of the rest of us will suffer if that happens. Keep your fingers crossed.
Matsui also has a full no trade clause and I see the chances of him accepting a trade to MN as likely as it is that Kevin would never bring up the tax dollars paying for the stadium again.
I tried this in the last Joe C. post. Then he put this one up right after. Lets play oddsmakers. What’s the percent chance that Jo Jo gets traded. My guess is 33 percent. I just don’t see the teams giving into the Twins demands and I don’t see Billy Smith changing his demands either.
Good point Jama. I didn’t know about the no trade. Also, after I thought about it. How does Matsui make 14 million a year. He’s not that good and I bet the Twins would agree.
I remember the TWins losing the 65 series as a kid, then going into Boston the last weekend of the 67 season needing to win one to get the pennant, then losing both.
There were a few more contending teams, but whether they were contending or not it was wonderful to have a Harmon to cheer for.
I went out of state to college the fall right after Carew was on the cover of Time Magazine as baseballs best hitter, and feeling so proud of that.
We cannot trade away this TWins generation’s Harmon, Rodney, or Kirby.
Ok, we did trade Rod, but after a pretty long career with Twins.
Teams may contend or not contend, but little kids remember the heros that when they are older, and their childhood heros enter Cooperstown, they can tell their own kids, that was my hero growing up.
Last I heard it sounded like Hiroki Kuroda was leaning heavily toward the Dodgers. Has anyone heard otherwise? If somehow the Mariners could get him maybe the Dodgers would throw their hat in the ring. I don’t see that as real likely but you never know.
Kevin
Are you still buzzed up from last night? You do what is best for the baseball team not what is best for a handfull of little kids. Kids have a short memory, if Santana gets traded they will just latch onto someone else that has a great season.
Can you at least accept that trading Johan COULD make this team better in the long run?
Tedge
I would say it is a 75% chance at least that Johan gets traded. Unless the Twins signed Santana to an extension in the next week, I would all but guaratee that he got dealt.
jama
i have not heard any new updates on kuroda..
and after thinking about matsui for 15 minutes..
i decided on this.. how bout we take CANO back..
haha
McDonald
Punto
Mauer
Young
Morneau
Cuddyer
Monroe
Lamb / Harris
Everett
Looks like the Twins lineup at this point.
2B, SS, LF are improved over last year. 3B, CF, DH look worse.
It doesn’t make much sense to sign a 33 year old first baseman to a two year contract. He’s a hack at third. The must be thinking more trades.
I’m hoping Cuddyer or Morneau is swapped for the pitching this team desperately needs.
If the Twins trade Santana to New York they should try to include Morneau, to get another top pitcher.
The Twins aren’t even considering Matsui. Likewise, the Yankees are not proposing trading Matsui to the Twins. They are trying to move Matsui to another team to dump his salary to make room for Santana. That other team most certainly is not the Twins!
So you still think Punto is going to be starting, Craig, even after the Twins traded for a second baseman and signed a shortstop and third baseman with Punto already on the roster? And I know you think Lamb can’t play third, and yes his defense is pretty bad, but the Twins view him as a third baseman (and if they didn’t, they wouldn’t have signed him).
Somebody please remove this guy from the blog.
Harris could make a decent utility guy and Kubel’s highest calling is as a pinch hitter and part time outfielder. The Twins will have those two in roles they can handle.
The Real Craig that is.
Oh no the Real Craig has found us. Don’t respond to his posts. He is extremely lacking in insight. Just a question for you Craig. You say our DH now, is worse than last year. Who was our DH last year? This year it’s Kubel/Monroe.
The answer will be printed later.
I haven’t heard a word about the possibility that Smith has even spoken to Santana’s agent about re-opening negotiations. Not that Bill would text message me personally to let me know, of course, but I just think if that were happening, there would have been some indication. I think it’s still 90% chance that he’s dealt and I agree with JoeC that we’re getting close to that day.
I’d love to have him pitching for Minn opening day (and making Hunter look like a fool 3-4 times), but it just makes no financial sense at this point.
A couple more points about the Santana market based on recent activity: The Dodgers seem to be hard into the Bedard sweepstakes. They offered Baltimore 4 players including Kemp and Kershaw. This package is better than either the Sox or the Yankee’s offers for Santana. It would be better than an Ellsbury, Bucholz, Lowrie and Masterson package. Also what the A’s got for Haren is much better than what’s on the table for Santana. The Haren package would be the equivalent of Santana+ Rincon for Kennedy, Hughes, Cabrera, Jackson & 2 more minor leagues from the Yankees…
If the Dodgers strike out on both Bedard and Kuroda, it would probably be the best possible scenario for the Twins:
Kemp, Kershaw, Laroche & Meloan. I’d take that 
Monroe, Lamb, Cuddyer. I see those as three salary dumps before the trade deadline next season. The Twins will be out of the race by then, especially if they trade Santana.
Sign Johan- 5/100 with 15 signing bonus and years 6/7 added based on innings, mutual options, etc.
Trade needs to be one to blow Twins away: RS= Clay, Jacoby, & Jed; NYY= Phil, Robinson, +?.
Why does JS walk without a stronger effort; there is time. Does JS want to play in MN? This is huge really.
The effect on a young staff by the veteran Santana should not be overlooked/minimalized.
Ultimately, we place the trust of these decisions in the hands of the professional evaluators employed by the Minnesota Twins Baseball Club. We hope and wish…
Tedge,
No the Twins DH is Monroe/Kubel, not Kubel/Monroe. It won’t be a platoon. Kubel will get an occasional start.
The answer to the DH Trivia questions.
The Twins DH for the 2007 season was (were):
Jason Kubel,Jeff Cirillo, Mike Redmond, Joe Mauer, Jason Tyner, Justin Morneau, Rondell White, Garrett Jones, Torii Hunter, Luis Rodriguez, Josh Rabe, Matthew LeCroy, Lew Ford, Tommy Watkins.
Boy Craig you’re right. The Twin’s DHs last year were incredible. Such a stable position.
Tyner did a good job at DH for the Twins. He was consistent. Monroe is dreadful and Kubel has never hit much in the bigs, except for last September.
“It’s easy to get fooled in September” - Terry Ryan
This is my last post to the Real Craig as I am severing all ties with him for fear of stupidity. Craig Monroe is right handed. Jason Kubel is left handed. The majority of pitchers in the world are right handed. Who has more success against these pitchers. A left handed batter or right handed one? I agree, it’s the right handed one who hit .219 last year. .194 against righties.
Tyner as DH in 2007:
.230/.309/.262 in 69 PA.
Yeah. Real great job.
Sorry I lied. One more response to Craig. Jason Tyner is and never was a good hitter. All he ever hit were singles. That and speed are his only skills. Probably the two least relevant skills in baseball. Quit drinking that Kool Aid.
Now that the Twins have signed Lamb, they can take Buscher and Jones off the 40 man roster. Please, just release those two guys.
Kubel as DH in 2007:
.302/.385/.500
And same goes for me with regards to Craig. This is the last time I bother responding to one of his posts.
Hitting and speed the two “least relevant” skills? Hmmm………baseball 101 for you, buddy.
Speaking of speed, the lead-footed “new” Twins have lost the one skill that helped them compete against the big slugging teams. Doesn’t look good.
Boy this is getting hard. I want to ignore you but also want to inform you. Hitting is relevant. Hitting singles is not. It’s not like he’s Wade Boggs. Speed is irrelevant. It’s a luxury. If you have it great. If you don’t, whatever. Getting on base, and hitting for power are far more important. It’s about scoring runs not stealing bases. Besides, I’ve been to baseball 101. That’s where you learn what have said. I’ve just finished my semester of baseball 330. They teach you more complex things there.
With the Padres picking up Edmonds, that leaves them out of the Matsui trade market. Now if only the Mariners sign the japanese pitcher, the Dodgers might want to talk about Santana
jama, you going to the redactular?
I drove past the Old Country Buffet and saw Boof and Cuddy trying to get in the door at the same time. It wasn’t pretty.
Will everybody please just stop responding to Craig’s posts as he has shown us that he has absolutely no idea what he is talking about?
jpf
As of right now I don’t think so. I have to work at 6:30 the next morning and a presentation is involved. We’ll see anything is possible. I told Rand if he could get LEN 3 there that would increase my chances. I don’t want to be the lone Bears fan in the building.
Sorry Austin. It’s all my fault. I just feel like he needs to know the truth. Not as he sees it. But the real honest to goodness truth.
Austin, you have been gone for 6 months. They don’t let you use computers on the inside, do they?
Trust me Tedge, many people including myself have tried before. At some point you just have to come to the conclusion that it is never going to happen.
He’s been banned several times, which is why he has had to change his name. I think Howard was the first to ban him.
Jama, you beat me to the punch by including the Dodgers in your post. After I saw the Haren deal to the D-Backs, the Dodgers must look at that and say, “Great, another division rival just got another stud pitcher”.
Look at what the D-Backs gave up too. Carlos Gonzalez and Aaron Cunningham are two top-teir prospects and will be potential 40-man roster guys. Gonzalez for sure, and will probably be on the A’s 25-man roster out of Spring Training. Not saying we should’ve targeted him since he is a RF.
I would think the Dodgers have to feel more motivated now to work some sort of deal for a proven ace to keep up with their divisional foes.
I believe the Real Craig is mentioned in the Mitchell report on page 345 - he’s on ‘roids!!!
I like how Hank Steinbrennar says what everyone already knows and that is good enough for the second lead story on the ESPN web site. It makes it seem like a trade is happening, when in fact nothing has changed.
P.S. To appease Craig, the Twins have signed Vince Coleman, Harold Reynolds and Delino Deshields. Now they can go from first to third on a single to left.
Has anyone read ShysterBall’s fisking of the Mitchell Report? Interesting reading and breaks it down in a pretty objective and realistic fashion.
If Twins DON’T trade JS
Harris/Casilla (2B)
Mauer
Cuddyer
Morneau
Young (CF)
Monroe (LF)
Kubel (DH)
Lamb/Buscher (3B)
Everett
It’s a better lineup then we had last year!
The thin-skinned Howard banned me for pointing out an error in his thinking. La Velle and Joe are tough guys like me. They can handle a little contentiousness.
Austin and jama are girls.
To finish my thought on my previous post, I was trying to point out how many prospects the D-Backs gave up for Haren.
Any deal for Santana should include more than what the Yankees and BoSox are offering (at least in print).
The difference between the Haren and proposed Santana deals are that there were no “big time” prospects in the Haren deal. Hardly anyone that had any ML experience. The A’s went for quantity over quality. The prospect in the Santana deal are widely regarded as some of the best in baseball (and not just because they are in NY and Bos)
The other part is that Haren is locked up for 3-4 more years, that increases his value immensely!
The prospects in the Haren trade aren’t as good as what the Twins are asking for. I know the rank highly, but’s it’s relative. I believe that the player’s the Twins are asking for a more sure things than the players Oakland received; “sure thing” being a highly debatable phrase.
I guess we think alike, Tedge.
Oh, I forgot to add. My point was that don’t expect the Twins to get six players. Quality over Quantity is what Billy Smith seems to be asking for.
KB,
I should read your posts before I post mine. We just might be the same person.
Well, the A’s certainly went for quantity, and you’re right, they didn’t get anyone who’s proven anything in the majors, but they did get the D-Backs #1, #3, #7, and #8 prospects (as rated by Baseball America last week) plust two more guys.
Kb,
I agree that the 3 to 4 years that Haren has left on his contract increased his value. However, this implies that the 1 year that Johan has left, decreases his. I don’t think that’s the case. Johan would never be available if he had 3 years left and I think the fact that whoever trades for him gets to sign him, renders the one year meaningless. The money that they have to pay for him is relevant, though. But, that’s a drop of the hat for the Sox or Yanks.
You know, I actually agreed with Craig once. I hope that doesn’t get me banned.
Just for the record, even if jama and Austin are girls, what’s wrong with that? Personally, I like girls. It’s just the way I am.
Mike D., that’s the #1,3,7 and 8 in the D-Backs organization, that’s a relative comparison. Gonzalez (the #1) is the only one that has “star potential”, from everything I’ve read. Think about who the #8 prospect in the Twins organization would be….not much in a trade for that caliber of a pitcher, and the Twins are regarded as having a better farm system than the D-Backs.
I love you KB.
Whoa, Whoa, Whoa. The D-Backs have a better farm system than the Twins though. All we got our pitchers.
If were talking about signing Santana and bringing in another FA I would rather have Lofton rather than Cameron as TBR stated earlier. Even though Lofton is nearly my age, he is remarkably consistent at the plate. Where as Cameron’s numbers seem to be declining and are not good enough to be a leadoff hitter.
As far as trades go, I would like Ellsbury included if its BOS, Matsui-LF (move D. Young to CF, but I am not sure who would leadoff though) NYY, M. Kemp LAD. I am not sure about M. Cabrera I am on the fence about him, has youth and was good in 2006?
I do not want to see C. Crisp here and I like the NYM infielders ( J. Reyes )if we were to trade with them, but the Twins seem content with what they have there now and the Mets say he’s not available to trade. So I am not sure who else we could get to play CF from them.
I do not like the idea of trading Santana to BOS or NYY though … Santana is only 28 and will most likely dominate the league for many years to come. I also think the Yankee’s need him way more than the Red Sox… look at that aging lineup outside of Cano and Cabrera. Of course, they can just buy another lineup.
Gonzalez has been tagged as a “can’t miss” prospect in a lot of reports I’ve seen. He is could be very good, but that “can’t miss” label frequently acts like the Sport Illustrated cover curse.
I agree with the oquality over quantity thinking, 2 studs are better than 5 or 6 decent players.
Boy, do I have fat fingers today. Sorry.
Tedge, thanks for the love.
I agree all we have is our pitchers, but there’s alot of them. As far as trading peices, I would say they rank above the D-backs, but we’re splitting hairs here, no one really knows.
I guess I’m just saying that you can’t be too excited about the #7 or 8 prospect in anyone’s system, it looks good on paper until you think about how many actually ever pan out.
Real Craig, thats pretty pathetic that you got banned from a twins blog! do you really have nothing better to do…wow!
I’m torn on Melky. I’m not too excited about him, but I think that Hughes/Melky combo offers more than Ellsbury plus some prospects.
Our pitching will get real thin real fast if we don’t get someone that can be in the rotation this year, I think.
Any thoughts out there about Mark Prior coming to the Twins. I could see him goingt to Yankee’s and being good again and we would hate that!
2 things
1. The A’s got a lot of very good players. Gonzalez is just as good if not better than Ellsbury. He just doesn’t have the major league experience yet so people haven’t heard of him.
2. Somebody said that the Twins have a better farm system than the D’Backs? That is crazy. Arizona had a top 3 farm system going into last year. This trade obviously depleted that along with several players getting called up. Their system might be worse NOW but they had some great players and prospects going into last season.
Kb,
You’re right we’re splitting hairs. I would like to know if the package that the A’s got for Haren affects the offers the Twins are getting for Santana. It could go a lot of ways. Teams could point to the Haren deal and use that as precedent to not cave to the Twins demands. Conversely, it could increase the offers because now their is only one other stud pitcher on the trade market (Bedard) and we all know he’s not going to be traded within his division.
TwinsD
I think there are too many teams looking into Prior for the Twins to have a real shot. I am sure some team will give him a 3 year contract for too much money. When the Yankees and Mets are involved it is going to be hard to outbid them. Plus Prior would prefer to go to a big market. That is part of the reason he didn’t want to come to MN coming out of college.
I agree, I don’t think that Prior is a reasonable fit here. I don’t want to touch him for the money that he will comand and I don’t think there is a question mark big enough to put on whether he will EVER be effective again.
Jama,
The fact that the players the Twins are asking for are Major League ready, is huge. This means that they are more certain. The A’s got some good prospects, yes, but the probability that they will be good is less than the players the Twins are trying to acquire. Again, we’re splitting hairs.
The Real Craid is another Bald 40 something white guy that never has played a sport in his life. Its funny to follow the blogs in MN.Why even validate this guy. He rips on guys before they get a chance. Kubel, Buscher, Casiila and Jones did decent jobs once they stopped being jacked around by the Mgr. Kubel put up decent numbers once he got some regular AB’s and Jones was jacked up and down 3 times…finally played some in Sept. and hit about .300 with 2 HR’s..and Busher hit decent too. It’s tough to relax when you know you’ll sit for 5 or 6 games if you don’t get a hit or make an error. Guess Punto, Rodriguez and Rondell were just too good to sit. It’s no wonder these guys would love to get out. If they trade Johan….can’t wait to see the Central tee off on the Twins youth. It will be fon watching from Detroit.
The problem I have with the Yankees’ proposed package is Cabrera. Hughes is as good as you’re going to get in a prospect, but Melky just is not good by any standards. He’s strictly a stop gap, and I think we need to do better than that in the potential trade. For some reason, and I could be completely out to lunch here, the Mariners with Jones and Morrow really intrigues me. Again, it’s that quality thing. Prospects are such crapshoots, it’s hard to tell with any certainty.
Boneyard
It sounds like the Mariners kicked the tires but didn’t want to give up more than Jones and Morrow. Plus I think they aren’t sure they can afford such a huge contract. Plus I’m not sure Santana would okay a trade there.
Boneyard,
The Mariners proposal is just the opposite of the Yankees. Jones is the superstar and Morrow is the question mark. It could be better, but it depends on how good Morrow is.
I’d be fine with the M’s trade as well, but I think it’s a valid point to wonder if Santana would go there and if they could afford the paycheck.
Well, we won’t know if he’ll go there unless somebody asks.
Tedge, I agree with you analysis on Jones and Morrow.
Also, Safeco wouldn’t be a bad yard to pitch in. Johan may like that.
I don’t think Johan would veto a trade to Seattle. If they gave him the contract he was looking for, why wouldn’t he want to go there. Johan and Felix would be extremely formidable and their offense is decent. Plus, I am not sure I believe that he has to pitch in a big time (east coast) market. I just think the Sox and Yanks are always mentioned because they both fit what the Twins are looking for in a trade partner. It’s an easier decision for them to trade and pay for a player of Johan’s caliber than it is for the Marnines. If Seattle, decided to pursue it and offer the Twins what they are looking for, I don’t think Johan would kill the deal.
Wow. The Haren deal is quite the blow to the Twins FO. The only premium prospect out of the bunch was Carlos Gonzalez, nothing like the top-level talent the Twins have been demanding and no, “a Porsche for a Porsche” trade that I’ve seen demanded on these blogs.
Mariners won’t be interested in Santana until and unless they fail to sign Kuroda.
Fine if the Mariners sign Kuroda, switch their name for the Dodgers.
I drove back past Old Country Buffet and Boof and Cuddy are stuck in the doorway. They seemed to have formed an unextractable wedge. They were screaming at the staff to “bring food”….. That isn’t going to help.
And jama,
The reason that the D-Backs had a top 3 farm system was because of all of the players that they have already called up (Conor Jackson, Justin Upton, Chris B. Young, Micah Ownings) and players not included in the deal (Miguel Montero, Alberto Callapso). The only highly-regarded prospect out of the bunch is Gonzalez.
AND the Twins are asking for major-league-ready talent which lowers the ceiling on the people who would be available to you. Because there’s one major-league CF for every five 20-year old who, “has all the tools.”
Dodgers have the better players anyway. I would love to get Kemp and Kershaw out of them. Young-Kemp-Cuddyer outfield would be pretty sweet!!!! And then in two years we would have two real pitching studs in Liriano and Kershaw.
Boneyard,
I also don’t care that Austin and jama are girls. It doesn’t matter. I shouldn’t have mentioned it.
Craig,
Why do you insinuate that Cuddy is fat. He may not be fast, but the man is in shape. Boof on the other hand…
Problem with the Dodgers is their distinct lack of interest. Tough for one team to approve both sides of a trade.
I know I just put the Dodgers out there, but they have long been linked to Joe Blanton of the A’s. Since Oakland traded Haren, it only makes sense to trade Blanton. So I think if the Dodgers miss out on Kuroda they will turn to Blanton, not Santana. If they miss out on Blanton then all bets are off. Johan may be gone by then, however.
Motor City Guy,
How many murders did you witness this morning in that death trap city of yours?
Cuddy is plenty fat.
Motor City Guy,
I have a higher IQ than the entire population of Detroit combined. Including you.
Santana is not your fourth option in your offseason… either you’re in the sweepstakes or you’re not. The Dodgers (probably for financial reasons) are definitely not.
Wow Craig that was a pretty intense thing to say.
But to comment on the Tigers teeing off on the Twins, yeah that may happen, but look at there pitching staff. 51 wins from them last season. Wow that makes up a team that will score and give up the most runs in the ML next year.
To be very very honest I think the trade for Miggy “OCB #2″ Cabrera and Dontrelle “I have had one good season” Willis was a great deal for the Indians.
They are going to kick the Tigers asses all over the place, and I wouldn’t doubt a couple of wins for the Twins against them either. Have fun watching the senior league in Detroit this year.
Don’t worry..The Real Fat Craig” will witness a lot of murders once the season starts. Any food left at the Buffet? That must be one of the finer resturants that you visit “Fat”. New nickname…seems to fit you well.
Craig,
I see how you got banned
I agree that Santana is not a fourth option. But, look at it it from this perspective. The Dodgers are trying to upgrade their rotation in the offseason. It’s their number 1 priority. They target certain pitchers, Kuroda & Blanton, but miss out on them. Now, all of a sudden there is no one left that is adequate. Well, at first they preferred to hold onto their prospects and get a decent pitcher. Now their are no decent pitchers left. They would have now already conceded to giving up some prospects if they traded for Blanton, so now they just add more to get a better pitcher. Albeit, one they had no intentions of trading for when the offseason began. Their thinking could change based on what has occurred around them. Espescially, to counter what the D-Backs have just done.
I realize that this is extremely far-fetched. I just don’t think you can count them out just because they aren’t rumored, at this time. Just like how the Angels swoop up out of nowhere and sign Torii Hunter of Vlad Guerrero.
What a busy week…
Wow…Fat Craig…seems we have hit a nerve.And TJ nice to see the twinkies are adding some youth with Everett and Lamb. Watch out, Fat Craig might just eat those twinkies. What trailer park do you reside in, FAT.
The problem is that you just don’t find $140MM laying around the house if you don’t get Joe Blanton.
So, how did you end up in Detroit? Are you dealing crack or are you pimping? Both?
The Dodgers have that money.
Trade Moreanu for pitching? Craig, you’re the one who is on crack!
mark prior…i believe has closer written all over him and that would interest me…i wonder if b.s has thought on this..sure would be ironic to have mauer/prior on the same team…maybe im dreamin’ but i guess its that time of year…my hats off to the deals so far…now keep the deals coming…
You’re dreaming.
mr lost touch with reality,
No, I never use alcohol or drugs. That way I am able to correctly spell Morneau, unlike you.
trading morneau??….please stay off the drugs today…i know its tough but damn, ya gotta try…you will see that the twins team is slowly starting to take shape….im sure mr gardy is smiling….
Once again, The Real Craig is spouting obvious falsehoods:
Kubel has never hit much in the bigs, except for last September.
Kubel had the following line last August:
.364/.438/.509/.947
In the second half of last year, he hit:
.303/.379/.511/.891
That was only the best on the team over the last three months of the year. It’s hardly a September anamoly.
More likely, it had to do with a combination of regular playing time and batting in the number 2 spot in the order, when he had the following line:
.328/.409/.586/.995
Well, the Twins team is starting to take shape but it’s not a good one. Nabbing two guys released from the Astros isn’t a way to make a run for the pennant.
Matt,
Lamb was a free agent - not released.
Was Torii Hunter released by the Twins?
Bill Smith is the man!
If we get a CF, we can roll with this team next year. If we deal Johan for Ellsbury and Lester (I think the Sox will cave) we can roll with that next year too and contend, though we should probably sign a vet like Jennings in any case.
Oh, and I sure wouldn’t mind Nathan to the Cubs if we got Marmol in return. Marmol could immediately close for us and would be under salary control for 5 more years. That’s a good swap in itself.
Keep the good stuff coming, Bill Smith!
Plus, I wouldn’t exactly call the Houston organization smart.
They got Tejada and Valverde; great. They have ZERO pitching after Oswalt. They will get beaten down. They also shouldn’t released Everett. They should have had Tejada play 3b with Lamb as the bench bat at 1b/3b, and released Wigginton. Their leftside defense is going to be easily the worst in baseball this year. Tejada/Wigginton/Carlos Lee. Think about that for a second. I would hate to be a Houston pitcher, especially since teams line up RH batters as much as possible when they play at Minute Maid Park.
Houston is making the same mistakes Kenny Williams and the Sox are making. Letting one big 2005 run cloud their judgment into thinking that they can actually contend, when in reality they can’t. Both teams are heading for BIG rebuilding jobs in the next season or two. And neither has a chance of contention as presently constructed, with almost no assets left to trade.
Cuddy is plenty fat.
First, he’s on the lean side of normal for body fat. But even if he was on the fat side, so what? Four guys who have banners hanging in the Dome were on the fat side of normal: Tony O’, Killer, Herbie and Kirby. Body fat does not hinder baseball ability.
Dustin,
Just because the Twins are cheap doesn’t mean that other teams will trade the Twins all their good, cheap players for players with 1 year left on their contracts.
Nathan/Mormol? Not happening. I also think the Sox offer is as good as it is going to get… any offer that follows is only going to get worse.
You want me to say that signing one player who was released from the Astros and one player who wasn’t resigned by the Astros is not a way to make a run for the pennant? Fine. They’re still light-hitting bats who weren’t deemed important by a bad team… they might provide major league players to fill the lineup, but they’re not anything to make Gardy start smiling.
How is Lamb a “light hitting” bat?
Look at his numbers. He is an above-average bat at 3b.
If the Twins trade Johan for John Lester and Coco Crisp I am officially done as a Twins fan. A pitcher who MIGHT someday be a fraction as good as Johan and a slight upgrade over Jason Tyner in center for one of the most dominant pitchers over the last few decades. What a joke. Pohlad - spend your billions.
Matt, you can spin it any way you want, but the Twins are better now at four out of nine positions than they were at the start of 2007. And they’re a push at four of nine positions. The only position that is a question mark is center, but given Smith’s aggressive style, that will be settled soon. If they acquire Ellsbury, they will be better at five of nine positions and about the same at four of nine, while having a much stronger bench.
The big question will be pitching. But I would be surprised if the Twins start the year with their present staff minus Santana. Anyway, it’s too early to tell how good the Twins will be in 2008. But Smith as at least put the team in a position to be better than they were in 2007, all the while cutting the budget by about $30 million.
I haven’t had the time to read all the comments yet, so if someone else brought this up forgive me.
They talk of Bedard as a BIG time pitcher.
We have 2 cy young awards, and one of the best 4 season stretches from any pitcher not named Sandy Koufax in the modern era here in Santana. Do we know that Bedard can handle pitching for the Yankees or the Red Sox against the other team on a national spotlight?
Santana should equal exactly what Haren brought, should be more, but with the contract… exactly the same amount.
More!!!
matt…i couldnt disagree more…we now have a captain in the infield, something bartlet had trouble doing, and we now have more pop in a bat at 3rd than we have had in years… and the defense this shortstop will give us is unreal…..ya gotta believe, and i know gardy is smiling…he loves defense — it wins games…
As always CMath, good stuff. We are a much better team today.
And actually, BC, considering league/era, Johan’s stretch is BETTER than Koufax.
If the $20 million/year for 7 years extension is even close to what Santana actually wants, the Twins should just sign him. They’ve offered $20 million/year for 4 years already. Meet in the middle somewhere. At least negotiate! Original Kevin is right - Santana is too special a player to give up on without making a serious effort to keep him.
It’s hard to compare across eras, but here are Koufax and Santana’s ERA+ over their 5 and 4 year stretches, respectively:
Koufax- 141, 159, 187, 160, 190
Santana- 182, 155, 161, 130
I still think Koufax’s is better.
And I agree about Bedard, too. He had one really good season, but has never thrown 200 innings in a season. I still think he’s a great pitcher, but his durability should be questioned and he needs to put up numbers more consistently to be considered in Santana’s league.
The Dodgers signed Kuroda. Just saw it on MLBTR.
SO I guess the Dodgers are for sure not going to take a dip in the Santana Derby. Bummer I thought they had the best match for us. I guess we should see what we could get from the Sox.
That sucks on Kuroda. Very much expected though.
And Mike, as for Koufax/Santana. Not just about ERA (though offenses are MUCH better today) but Jayson Stark actually had a great article about a week ago on just how great Santana has been over this stretch. Looking at K’s, WHIP, etc. as well. Johan and Pedro are probably the greatest pitchers since Walter Johnson. Noone touches the Big Train.
Sh_ _
I did read that aritcle, and it was very good. Johan definitely had a better K rate over his stretch than Koufax did. He’s been over 1 an inning every year, while Koufax only topped 1 per inning once. The WHIP I’m not sure about, because Koufax was better in that area if you just look at the numbers. But, like his ERA, that was influenced by pitching in that era and without a DH. I;m just not sure how their WHIPs compare.
oops, Koufax was over 1 K per inning twice in his 5 year span, my mistake.
OK Mike. I would say that the lack of a DH/getting to face a pitcher 3-4 times a game has to factor heavily against Koufax as well though.
Regardless, I guess it’s close. Pedro has been the most nasty to me for his stretch. A sub 2.00 ERA in the AL East for a year or two is just filthy.
But bottomline, we’re talking about an all-time great here, not just a CY guy. And I know you know that, so no disagreement here.
I just love how Hank can go from setting a deadline, to saying the deadline is upheld, to coming back and saying “I never had a deadline.”
I have to admit, this is going to be the most exciting run of ownership the Yankees have ever have.
I look forward to Cano and Hughes coming over to the Twins. 
The only highly-regarded prospect out of the bunch is Gonzalez.
I beg to differ
Here is a list of Baseball America’s top Diamondback prospects for 2008. The ones with the asterisk plus Dana Eveland and Greg Smith went to Oakland for Haren
1. Carlos Gonzalez, of *
2. Jarrod Parker, rhp
3. Brett Anderson, lhp *
4. Max Scherzer, rhp
5. Gerardo Parra, of
6. Emilio Bonifacio, 2b/ss
7. Aaron Cunningham, of *
8. Chris Carter, 1b *
9. Reynaldo Navarro, ss
10. Barry Enright, rhp
Thus, the argument that a Dodger equivalent would be Clayton Kershaw, Andy LaRoche, Jonathan Meloan, Matt Kemp & 2 others
Craig says, “I never use alcohol…”
Maybe you should. You might make more sense.
I’m just glad we got the right 3B from the Astros. If we would have gotten Wiggington I would have been pissed.
I’m in Seattle and I watched Morrow pitch out of the pen all last year. He’ll probably start out 08 (if he doesn’t get traded) in the rotation after he started 07 in A ball. He’s the real deal. They chose him before Lincecum if that’s any indication of the kind of talent he has. Adam Jones is a stud too. The feeling here is that they won’t get Kuroda either. If they can’t get Kuroda and they miss out on Bedard they could jump back in the fray if Johan hasn’t been traded by then. I still think it’s the Yanks or Sawx who make it happen though.
Yay for Barry Enright! That’s my Pepperdine boy. Kid is going to be a solid starter in a year or two.
Actually, didn’t think about that. In 1-2 years, the D’Backs could have 2 Pepperdine guys in their rotation now (Haren/Enright). Lots of Pepperdine alums out in the Phoenix area too.
I’m with those hoping Santana is signed to play with the Twins for the next 7 years.
Here’s the dilemma, as I see it: Who will be sent down or cut loose in ST?
For relief pitchers we’ve got Nathan, Cali*, Guerrier, Neshek, Crain, Reyes*, Perkins* and Rincon. That’s eight, by my count. (Asterisks refer to lefties, pitching or batting.
With Santana*, you’ve got Baker, Bonser, Slowey, Liriano* and Blackburn. That’s six more. If Blackburn pitches as well in ST as he did in the AFL, the Twins will bring him north.
CA: Mauer* and Redmond.
1B: Morneau*
2B: Harris, with Punto as a reserve
3B: Lamb*
SS: Everett
That’s seven more, without Cassilla, who I believe will start in AAA.
Outfield: Cuddyer, Young, Pridie*, Monroe, Kubel* and an as-yet unnamed center fielder. The Twins have said they still plan to get a starting CF. That gives them six outfielders, five if Pridie starts at AAA (which gives you little option for subbing in center).
8+6+7+5 or 6=26 or 27. The limit is 25.
So who do we cut or trade? If we trade Santana, we should get a CF, SP and prospects. It doesn’t alter the equation.
Barring injury or other mishap, I would trade Rincon, even for a AA player. Among the starters, Bonser or Baker should go to AAA, if Blackburn does well in ST.
Cutting two pitchers gives us Pridie as a reserve. Pridie can hit. For AAA Durham, he hit .318 with 10 homers in 63 games (245 AB) ly. Don’t know about his fielding or his arm, but he looks like a winner to me with the stick. The Twins don’t usually hand over a starting role to an unproven kid, but this could be the time to try it. We’ve got experience at every other fielding position (except for Young in left, who has got one year under his belt). Having a veteran CF who can show him the ropes and provide a bat off the bench would be good. Cameron would get my vote, even though he has to serve a 25-day suspension.
Whichever of the starting pitchers sent down will be the first called up in case or injury or ineffectiveness.
That’s my thinking.
Kuroda agrees to three-year contract with Dodgers
http://www.insidesocal.com/dodgers/archives/2007/12/kuroda_agrees_t.html
The deal is pending results of a physical examination, which Kuroda took this morning at Centinela Hospital, but it’s done and believed to be worth between $36 million to $40 millon. Club officials aren’t commenting for now, but two sources with knowledge of the situation confirmed the deal within the past half hour. Expecting more details later in the day, but this is a huge pickup for the Dodgers. Kuroda will fall somewhere in the middle of the rotation, probably the third or fourth spot. Ned Colletti now has filled two of the club’s biggest holes (a starting pitcher and a CF) without giving up ANY of the Dodgers’ young players.
I don’t think Crain starts the year with the club, so that’s probably the other switch. Bonser or Perkins (whoever doesn’t start; likely Perkins since he’s a lefty) would go to the pen.
I’m with you; heck, you might be able to trade Rincon and a prospect (like Mullins or Duensing) for a decent CF option actually. A guy like Crisp even.
Then you have something like:
CF
Kubel-DH
Mauer-C
Young-LF (6th to start but 4th soon)
Morneau-1b
Cuddyer-RF (4th to start)
Lamb-3b
Harris-2b
Everett-SS
Bench: Pridie, Punto, Monroe, Redmond, Macri or someone else (I’d vote for Macri as he had a good spurt in the AFL and he could hit lefties at 3b sometimes instead of Lamb)
Santana
Baker
Liriano
Slowey
Bonser
Pen: Nathan, Neshek, Perkins, Guerrier, Reyes, Blackburn (switched for Crain when Crain builds up strength in midsummer)
Sorry -25 game suspension.
OH, and if we go FA, I would vote for Cameron too. Pridie can fill in for 25 games. And Young could probably play some there too, with Kubel in LF, and Monroe at DH.
Here is something scary:
1. Granderson
2. Polanco
3. Cabrera
4. Ordonez
5. Sheffield
6. Guillen
7. Thames
8. Pudge
9. J Jones
thrylos98,
True. But looking at the D-Backs prospects from Baseball America’s Top 100 Prospects in Feb, 2007, with their position and asterisked if included in trade:
9. Justin Upton
12. Chris B. Young
18. Carlos Gonzalez*
63. Miguel Montero
82. Alberto Callapso
98. Micah Owings
As point of comparison, here’s the listings of the Red Sox and Yankees prospects that have been talked about from the same list…
4. Philip Hughes
27. Jose Tabata (I think the Twins raised his name)
33. Jacoby Ellsbury
51. Clay Buchholz
75. Joba Chamberlain
83. Michael Bowden (I think his name was kicked around)
In 2006, before he got called up, Jonathan Lester was #22 on the overall list.
I don’t believe the 2008 list has been compiled as of yet (I couldn’t find it, anyways). It isn’t perfect but it at least gives some objective way to measure these things. And what the A’s got was one elite prospect and a bunch of hope, which is less than the Red Sox were offering and the Twins were calling a poor offering. So I don’t see this trade as helping the Twins leverage at all.
Twinsman,
Your Tigers lineup is wrong.
Replace either Thames or Double J. With Renteria. Not that that is any better.
Matt,
I don’t think it hurts there leverage either. Haren isn’t as good as Santana and the Sox and the Yanks both know that if they want Santana they have to give the Twins an acceptable package. The Twins view of an acceptable package hasn’t changed because Oakland made a questionable trade and went for quantity over quality.
Sure their lineup will be really good, but 1) they have a LOT of old guys in that lineup and I think injuries have a good chance to creep up on them; and 2) our pitching would murder theirs with Johan, especially our bullpen.
I think we are far from out of contention if we get a decent CF like any of Cameron/Lofton/Crisp.
Something more recently, Baseball Prospectus has been going through the teams and rating their prospects. Doesn’t look they’ve gotten to the D-Backs yet, but here’s what they say about the Twins, Red Sox, and Yankees.
Twins:
Five-Star Prospects
None
Four-Star Prospects
1. Ben Revere, CF
Three-Star Prospects
2. Anthony Swarzak, RHP
3. Jeff Manship, RHP
4. Eduardo Morlan, RHP
5. Tyler Robertson, LHP
6. Nick Blackburn, RHP
7. Brian Duensing, LHP
8. Trevor Plouffe, SS
Two-Star Prospects
9. Chris Parmelee, OF
10. David Bromberg, RHP
11. Joe Benson, OF
Red Sox:
Five-Star Prospects
1. Clay Buchholz, RHP
2. Jacoby Ellsbury, CF
Four-Star Prospects
3. Justin Masterson, RHP
4. Jed Lowrie, SS
5. Ryan Kalish, OF
Three-Star Prospects
6. Michael Bowden, RHP
7. Lars Anderson, 1B
8. Nick Hagadone, LHP
9. Oscar Tejeda, SS
Two-Star Prospects
10. Josh Reddick, OF
11. Che-Hsuan Lin, OF
Yankees:
Five-Star Prospects
1. Joba Chamberlain, RHP
Four-Star Prospects
2. Ian Kennedy, RHP
3. Austin Jackson, OF
4. Jose Tabata, OF
5. Alan Horne, RHP
Three-Star Prospects
6. Dellin Betances, RHP
7. Jesus Montero, C
8. Andrew Brackman, RHP
9. Edwar Ramirez, RHP
10. Kelvin DeLeon, OF
Two-Star Prospects
11. Humberto Sanchez, RHP
I think the A’s actually got a fine package for Haren. I’d take Gonzalez, personally, over any position player we’ve reportedly been offered so far. And Cunningham isn’t a scrub as a pitching prospect.
Tedge,
Santana is better than Haren. No question.
But to general managers, they have to weigh not only the quality of the players but the financial upsides of their deals. And because Haren is cost-controlled for three years whereas Santana is going to receive the richest contract ever given to a pitcher, the league was reportedly viewing the trade value of Haren the same as it was as Haren. So the Haren deal provides a benchmark of value… and for the Twins, it’s not a good report.
Gonzalez may have more upside than Ellsbury or Carlos Gomez, but those guys are more major league ready. That means they have a greater chance at success. That’s what the Twins are looking for. Anderson is the good pitching prospect in that trade, however.
The A’s package is basically the deal the Yankees were offering with a few more fliers. It was led by one top prospect and then a lot of ho-hum afterwards.
Matt,
I don’t buy that Haren’s contract gives him equal value to Santana. It just makes teams like the Diamondbacks interested in him. Santana’s potential contract does rule out the mid market teams, but it still leaves the big boys. It’s the Red Sox and the Yankees. Money is no object. My point being is that the Twins will receive a better trade package, but it will be with the teams in big markets. The contract situation affects the number of teams interested, not the quality of players they receive.
Matt,
You made my point for me. The Twins aren’t accepting one top prospect and a lot of ho-hum. At least, not right now and hopefully not ever.
Agreed. Well said. Haren is good but on the Red Sox he’d be their 3rd best starter.
Johan would be their best.
Big difference.
But that’s where your wrong: money IS an object.
If you pay attention to the Red Sox, you’ll see two strong trends…
1. They really don’t like going over the luxury tax. They will, on occasion, but especially given the increasing %age for violating it in consecutive years, they like to only bump over it when necessary. But it is what prevented them from trading for Bobby Abreu in 2003 when they were tail-spinning and in desperate need of an impact bat.
2. They really don’t like to give contracts more than 4, and in most cases 3, years. The Matsuzaka contract is an exception since they had already paid $51MM up front and wanted to spread that out. But for the most part, they like 3-year deals, even if it means losing out on a player. Just this winter, they drew a line in the sand on # of years with Mike Lowell, an incredibly popular player, and he ended up saying alright. But they weren’t going to be extended.
And even the Yankees seem to have their limits as well. They only resigned A-Rod after he agreed to take a discount for the money that Texas was going to pay out of his old contract and the rumor is want to trade Matsui to make financial space for Santana.
If Santana was signed to a 5-year, $40MM deal, both teams would be offering a much sweeter deal. But, of course, then the Twins wouldn’t want to trade him. Honestly, I think the Twins could get almost as much in trade value by trading Liriano. But of course they don’t want to do that, either.
Tedge,
I made my point. One top prospect and ho-hum has been defined as the going trade value. If the Twins are going to say that’s vastly under value, then they’re not going to trade him.
Although for what it’s worth, the Sox offer was much better than one top and ho-hum. Lowrie and Masterson are 4-star prospects according to BP and Ellsbury is a 5-star.
If you think the Twins could compete by signing Cameron, you’re mistaken.
Cameron is going to miss the first month of the season, which is an important time for the Twins…who will want to come out of the gate on all cylindars.
To sign a guy knowing you’re going to be crippled for the whole first month, that’s just a problem waiting to happen.
Matt,
You make valid points. I just have a few disagreements. First of all you stated that the Red Sox do not like paying the luxury tax, but will on occasion. Couldn’t one of those occasions be when they have a chance to acquire the best pitcher on the planet? Also, you state that they like to give out shorter contracts, but they gave a longer one to Dice K because they already paid 51 million for his negotiating rights. They didn’t have to give him a longer deal because if they didn’t sign him they got there money back from Japan. Granted this would not have been good public relations for them.
I do agree with you that Santana would be worth more in a trade if he was signed for more than a year. But, as you stated, the Twins would just keep him. However, when comparing the situation to Haren’s, the Twins should still be able to expect more in return. It’s a talent driven business and Johan is the preeminent talent. The Twins have been wise to have this view point (to this point).
P.S. I like the intelligent conversion that can take place in here. Keep it up.
Matt,
I also agree that the Red Sox proposal is very close to a deal. I think the Twins are holding out on it because the know they have to replace some of Johan’s production next year, not just in the future.
Where you and I differ is on your statement that the trade market has been set for Johan. They are in two different markets all together. One shouldn’t affect the other.
The Twins obviously need to get as much as possible in return for Santana, but I’m not in the category that says, “if we don’t get full value, don’t trade him”. I think keeping him will put this team back several years. Take as much time as you need, but you have to move him.
How is Santana pitching for the Twins for one more year any benefit. At the end of the day (or off-season) they have to have something to show for him. Even if they end up with only one potential super-star and some other prospects. How is that worse than a couple of draft picks and your pride that you didn’t take less than what you deemed “fair value” for him?
I like reading that baseball prospectus. The Red Sox offered the Twins one five star prospect and two four star prospects plus a three star prospect. The Yankees offer was Melky (Four star in his time?), Phil Hughes (Five Star) and then they refused another four star (Kennedy, Austin Jackson). I think the Yankees would have Johan right now, but they seem to be overvaluing their prospects. What a strange concept for the Yankees to be involved with.
P.S. I used the word prospect too many times in this post. So feel free to scrutinize me.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/12/15/pettitte.hgh.ap/index.html
pettitte took hgh
I think the A’s did well. But I think Haren has a little more trade value than Santana for a couple of reasons: He’s still on the good side of the age/performance bell curve, and he will be very affordable for the next three years.
Still I think the Twins could have received for Santana something like the package the A’s got for Haren if they were willing to sacrifice quality for volume. It was reported that the Red Sox proposed a 5-1 trade that only included one four-star prospect. But the Twins are holding out for at least two four-star prospects.
The Haren and Kuroda deals only help the Twins by taking the two top pieces of competition off the market. The Mariners are now in play again, as are the Yankees. And the Dodgers and D-Backs never made an offer for Santana, so it’s really the best opportunity Smith has had to trade Santana.
I don’t think HGH is that big of a deal. It helps in recovery from an injury or at least that’s why mosts guys use it. What’s wrong with that. Steroids on the other hand makes you stronger. That’s the bad one.
Question - With the infield stabilized, will the Twins settle for a Hughes/Melky/slightly upgraded third prospect from the Yankees?
Getting a starting CF and a prospect of Hughes’ pedigree is starting to sound okay to me. The downside is that the infield solutions are just short-term patches and shortstop will be a question mark again in 2009. From a short-term prospective, I like the idea of Phil Hughes in the Twins rotation.
Going with a lineup of Melky/Harris/Mauer/Cuddyer/Morneau/Young/Kubel/Lamb/Everett sounds pretty good with some useful spare parts on the bench for mixing and matching. I’d bat Mauer leadoff, but I think it is unlikely.
The rotation would stack up as follows:
Hughes/Baker/Liriano/Slowey/Boof with Perkins and Blackburn lurking.
I’d be okay with pulling the trigger on the Yanks deal if they cave and upgrade that third prospect to a Jackson/Tabata/Horne level talent.
The Twins could then focus on turning Joe Nathan into a promising hitter who plays on the left side of the infield.
That said, keeping Santana and just patching CF this year would be okay with me. I think the Twins helped their case this week and could be looking at an 85 win team with upside potential.
cmathewson - are you really suggesting that johan is on the downside of his career?
twinsfan,
I completely agree with your take, and I too am starting to like the idea of the Hughes/Melky deal.
Where I will disagree is the last part with keeping him and patching CF might get you to 85 wins, there is a very good chance that won’t get you into the playoffs, and then you lose Santana next year with nothing to show, which puts you no where near 85 wins the next year.
On my Christmas Wish List:
Presuming Santana is traded, and since the Twins should have 3 of the top 40 odd draft picks, I hope they will budget $5 million or so to take one or two of these high projection, hard to sign draftees, which tend to drop.
Regards,
This is all being said that I understand the best case is to sign Santana…so no-one needs to tell me that, but you have to realize that the Twins made their offer, and he said no. Now, we have to move on and capitalize on the fact that we had him on our team.
this what the twins lineup will be if they trade santana to NYY
Harris 2B
Mauer-C
Lamb- 3B
Cuddyer-RF
Morneau-1b
Matsui-LF
Monroe-DH
Harris-2b
Everett-SS
Rotation
Liriano
Hughes
Bonser
Slowey
Blackburn,Baker,or Kennedy
The Yankees would jst pay the bigger part of matsui contract.
Tedge,
Maybe. But what’s different with Santana is that it isn’t taking on the last year of a deal while they’re making a run. It’s a 7-year commitment that will consume 1/8 or so of your payroll (if they want to generally stay under the luxury tax). The exceptions they like to make are more like the Timberwolves… who stay under the cap but then there was the year where they had KG, Sprewell, and Marbury and so took a 1-year hit to try to make a serious run.
As far as Matsuzaka, I’m not saying their options were sign a long contract or no contract but rather long contract versus short contract. In general, they stick to 3-4 years. But since they had paid $51MM up front, if they had done a 3-year deal with Matsuzaka, they would’ve paid (essentially) $17MM/yr for his negotiating rights on top of whatever they paid him in salary. So by doing a 6-year deal, the negotiating rights only came out to $8.5MM/yr.
The Twins might’ve been able to get a better deal 6 or 7 years ago back when The Boss was running the show for the Yankees. But now that he’s basically out of management (word is he’s actually senile) and Cashman has a strong voice, they are learning the value of young talent so being more tight-fisted.
Maybe the Twins get more than they’ve already been offered. But I’d be surprised.
Haren is only a year and a half younger than Johan. The Twins have made it clear that they want quantity. Quality and major leaguer quality at that.
I really doubt the Twins want Matsui, even if the Yankees paid a big part of his contract. Also, Lamb hitting 3rd? And Kubel not in the lineup? Looks to me like something not to pay attention to.
Yeah, the Yankees aren’t saying the Twins need to take Matsui, they’re saying they need to move him.
The Twins won’t want him.
Matt,
As far as payroll limitations and flexibility related to the luxury tax. The Yankees after next season no longer have to pay Carl Pavano (10 million), Jason Giambi (21 million), Bobby Abreu (15 million), Andy Pettitte (16 million), Mike Mussina (11 million), Kyle Farnsworth (5.5 million) and LaTroy Hawkins (3.25 million). The Boston Red Sox will no longer have under contract: Manny Ramirez (20 million, club option), Jason Varitek (9 million), Curt Schilling (8 million), Tim Wakefield (4 million), Julian Tavarez (3.85 million), Mike Timlin (3 million) and Alex Cora (2 million).
My point is that both teams can prioritize their player salaries (espescially the Yankees) to fit Johan into their plans. Also, I know Cashman has more authority now, but Hank seems to be running his mouth quite a bit and looks like he might want to put his own mark on the franchise. We’ll see I guess.
I mistyped before. The Twins want quality. Sorry. Also, Matsui in a Twins uniform? That would be weird. He’s like 34 years old too. I say build the team around him.
The Yankees do have some room. But they still care about money. Especially since every year of Santana’s contract is going to cost them 40% more because of the luxury tax.
The Red Sox don’t actually have that much space. Manny is the biggest contract potentially coming off of the books but they’re going to have to replace him with another middle-of-the-order guy which are going for not much less than $20MM/yr nowadays. Varitek’s $9MM I’m not sure what is going to happen with since they don’t really have another catcher lined up. Schilling’s $8MM will come off but his contract is actually a pretty good deal for them… finding even a quality #3 starter for $8MM is tough nowadays. Wakefield’s $4MM is a contract that renews every year. Every year the Red Sox ask, “Do you want to pitch again?” Wakefield says, “Sure.” And he signs on for another $4MM. Been that way for about 4 or 5 years, I think. Tavarez will likely come off this off-season since he wants to start and the Red Sox have too many guys for the job already. Timlin and Cora I’m not sure what they’d do with. So basically, they don’t have any insane contracts coming off the books any time soon except for Manny who isn’t much over market (if at all) nowadays.
The Yankees could definitely find someone to do nothing for much cheaper than Pavano’s $10MM and someone to play a fairly league-average 1st base than Giambi’s $21MM, though. Their other contracts look more or less market (indeed, Pettite and Hawkins they just signed within the last couple of weeks).
Been reading the last couple days and have come input.
FIRST NEVER RESPOND TO CRAIG ON ANY SUBJECT. Its like Kevin and BC’s stadium comments, regardless of any validity its hard to get past the volume to see anything of worth.
Santana signed to a 5 year 100 million extension and a mutual option on year six (total 133 for 7 years. Something to explore. And for those who say Santana and his agent would “whine”, I ask when has that happened? There have been several times he’s been underpaid and you’ve NEVER heard him complain. Santana and his agent have ONLY been class acts. Even in a stressful time of being potentially traded. In fact the only time he’s ever spoken out negatively was this last year at the trade deadline, and it just shows his competitive side. He is a class act. His stuff (can get away with less stressful two pitches) and his conditioning makes him a candidate for being worth a 7 year deal. And I don’t know of anyone I could even entertain that idea for.
Comparing Santana to the Haren’s deal and to those pitchers still on the market (Bedard and Blanton). Berdard will not be traded to the AL East (most likely destination is Cinnci). Thats been stated by the Orioles. Blanton is a nice pitcher, innings eater, but not much more than that. A solid three guy. And you guys forget the pitching market, Silva is the best available in FA. Here are the teams looking for Starting Pitching: Mariners, Mets, RedSox (if only to hound the Yanks), Yankees (if only to keep pace with the Sox), Angels. Santana is by far the best available. The best since Pedro was a FA. I’m not saying the Twins will rape a farm system , but they should get a pretty sweet deal.
And B.S. has played the trade situation perfectly. And I like the moves he’s making. Fun time to be a Twins fan.
And B.S. has played the trade situation perfectly. And I like the moves he’s making. Fun time to be a Twins fan.
I agree totally.
He didn’t fall to any deadline or pressure, and I think ultimatley it’ll help him get a better deal.
Also, I like the signings so far, and it’s good to see that the team isn’t just sitting around.
Matt,
I agree that the Yankees have far more wiggle room (financially) than the Red Sox. I’ve always expected them to be the most serious players in the Johan Santana Sweepstakes. The Red Sox actually have leverage, while the Yankees have a rather larger hole that needs to be filled. I bet there offer gets bigger. They are bullish about this too, because it doesn’t even have to get that much better. So let’s watch and see who caves, and hope for the best.
KB - I agree with you that gunning for 85 wins is not an acceptable outcome. But if the Twins do decide to keep Santana for 2008 and manage to put together a lineup that scores 800 runs, good things could result. If the Tigers or Yanks get a case of the olds, or the Indians stumble, you can fantacast a scenario where the Twins eke towards 90+ wins and make the postseason. I think it’s a rather remote chance but I can understand if the Twins front office drinks that flavor of KoolAid.
I agree that re-signing Johan would be the best possible development. Perhaps assembling a squad that could conceivably inspire hopes in non-Bremer observers in 2008 helps the Twins towards the that goal.
cmathewson - are you really suggesting that johan is on the downside of his career?
Well, yes. Statistically he should start to decline at this age. There are outliers like, ahem, Clemens. And there are outliers like Mark Prior as well. The average is 28. And most pitchers follow the bell curve that peaks at 28. Some have a little longer plateaus. A lot of guys start breaking down around 30. Some of those become finesse pitchers like Frank Tanana or Kenny Rogers. Santana has a good shot to do that, I suppose. And he could have a long plateau at this level as well. But I wouldn’t bet on that.
The one thing I would worry about if I were acquiring him is his blister problem. Last year is a microcosm of his career: When the blister flares up, he becomes a two-pitch pitcher, who’s good for quality starts absolutely every time out but not dominance. When the blister is fine, he can mix in his slider and then hitters have no chance. If I were Theo or Hank, I would worry about paying for a dominator and getting an innings eater.
The Yankees and Red Sox have more margin for error–or risk tolerance–than the Twins. So the Twins really can’t take on the risk of paying for an ace and getting an occasional ace and a third starter otherwise (or worse–he could blow out his elbow or something). That’s why I hope Smith consummates this deal and gets what the Red Sox are offering, or perhaps a little better.
In response to the 85 wins postings. The Twins aren’t gunning for 85 wins if they keep Santana. They are gunning to be competitive. A projection of 85 wins IS competitive. As we all should know projections can fluctuate, up and down. The Diamondbacks, last season, were supposed to win 78.5 wins last season and ended up in the NLCS. I know we have to contend with the Indians and the Tigers, but if we put a good team together anything can happen. Granted the Twins will not be favored next year (with or without Johan), they could have a chance to be successful. What’s wrong with that.
That being said, I am in favor of trading Johan if they aren’t gonna sign him.
Christy,
You make a good point. Johan might have a blister problem. He should go to Boston for sure now. Him and Beckett could start some sort of club.
Brandon, you left young out of your lineup.
Wow, the lead story on the CBS Evening News on TV tonight was Pettitte’s confession. Something about he only used HGH a couple days.
Do you believe him?
Bad news for the Twins cuz Pettitte is trying to put it behind him and probably won’t let it fester inside him this coming season. So the Yanks are a little less desparate for Santana now.
Tedge,
I agree that 85 wins would be competitive, but not even close to a sure bet to be in the playoffs. That is a HUGE gamble to take, meaning keeping Santana, for one possible shot at the playoffs. I don’t think they have enough else.
This is kind of moot point, because I think we both agree that the only real option is to trade him.
I also don’t think that they can’t be competitive and get up into the 80-85 win area without Santana next year and be on the upswing. Especially if they can get a legit CF and a rotation ready starter in return….. just more confirmation they should trade him.
The Yanks & Sox are media driven but they won’t happen. The Twins are not going to take the chance on creating a SUPER pitching staff in the AL unless we get an OVERWHELMING offer. The Twins have upgraded all their holes except CF. These upgrades will hold down the postions until our own prospects such as Plouffe at SS, Cassila at 2nd are more seasoned. Down the road, Revere will be ready for CF we hope. The Mets only high end position prospect is CF. That is why I could see Gomez & a handful of pitching coming over from the Mets. Cytana would not haunt us in the NL. If Gomez does not develop, Pridie & or Revere should be ready. More pitching gives us even more depth & trading chips. Cytana is the best pitcher the Twins have ever had, but no team will tie up 1/4 to 1/3 of their budget on one player, whether pitcher or hitter. Twins would not sign Arod for same reason if their careers were switched.
If you rely on the Mitchell report, you have to believe Pettite. The source for implicating him was Clemens’ trainer. And Clemens’ trainer talked about how Clemens used over years but that Pettite only did over one week while he was recovering from tendonitis.
Matsui?????
Are you people out of your mind??
Cuddy, Young, Kubel, Monroe, already at the corners. He’s not even on our radar. Sober up people!!!!!
Brandon you left Young out of your lineup and have Harris hitting twice. If we are going to try to sneak a guy into our lineup twice it should be Morneau.
cmathewson,
I knew what Kubel hit last August. So what? The races were pretty much over when he hit. August last season was an early September. Sleepy, who cares baseball, often times involving marginal call-ups. The essence of what I said was right on the money.
What profoundly ignorant people like you fail to comprehend, is that a good year in the minors has nothing to do with major league ability.
Except for a handful of meaningless AB he has been an awful major league baseball player. He has shown marginal (at best) talent at the plate, in the field and on the bases. The Twins have all but given up on him.
For those wondering what Baseball Prospectus ranked Melky Cabrera, he was listed in the middle of the “three-star” players. Thus the Yankees current offer was a 5-star, a 3-star, and refused to add a 4-star. For Santana–definitely not worth it. The Red Sox offer was a 5star (Lester), two 4-stars (Lowrie, Masterson), possibly a fourth (Kalish?), AND Coco Crisp, who posted a 300/350/450 line from 2001 to 2005. Their offer is orders of magnitude better.
It’s kind of sad seeing your comments about your potential lineup.Kubel as you dh is pretty sad. If you deal johan , and based on your gm’s comments you will, it is a sad commentary for a proud franchise that has an owner who has the resources to help you compete.
We would be happy to take johan off your hands and keep him away from the evil empire. Having the yankees back in the mix should really help boost your return for him , which is a good thing. Personally I don’t feel that the red sox will pony up the Twins asking price, based on the fact that thye have won 2 ws in the past 4 years and can compete without johan. They may up their offer to force the yankees to pay more. Time will tell and with the Haren trade I think the pressure is on, so we may see a deal next week. good luck
Kubel as our DH is sad?
We’ll find out buddy. Kubel’s going to be a very, very good player in this league for a long time. He was once in the same breath as Mauer and Morneau as a hitting prospect before his knee injury. Now that he’s fully back and healthy, we’ll see what he can do (much like his monster 2nd half last year).
And AM, you are right. The Sox reported package destroys the Yanks’ package.
JP. Just got home, and read your comment, and I don’t fully understand… my volume? Too many comments, or too long, or both? I suppose it doesn’t matter because I’m not going to stop.
For what it’s worth I have paid attenion and the blogs I don’t comment on get about 25-30% less volume on them… am I going to take all the credit for that? No, but I think I add a bit to the conversations.
I would like to say that the Dodgers signing hurts the Twins. I don’t think the Pettitte stuff is going to hurt the Twins at all.
I think the Red Sox right now just took the mantle.
And if the Twins did a deal with the Mets for Santana Gomez would have to be included if the Mets put in Reyes. Without Reyes the Mets don’t have enough high level prospects.
And Cameron is a HORRIBLE decision. Corey Patterson is a better option, but I’d be more likely to go after Kenny Lofton for a 1 year solution to the problem if we keep Santana.
Pirdie is not ready for the majors yet Span is never going to be ready for the Majors, Young is not a CF’r and for those comments on Maci, and Bucsher on the bench… it’s Punto, and if they go with a 2nd one it will be Tolbert.
Casilla, Buscher, Marci, and most of the rest of those people mentioned all belong in AAA so they can develop.
Jama - regarding your post at around 9:45am, of course the twins “could” be better by trading santana, but that is a big risk. No team should be in the business of trading the best pitcher in the world for the POTENTIAL to be better a few years from now.
If there was one pitcher (maybe even player) you’d choose to build a team around right now and for the next 5 years, it would be santana. As has been discussed as naseum, the Twins can afford to keep him, especially considering 1. the new stadium coming and 2. the steadily increasing salaries which may make 20M for santana look absurdly cheap in 4 years.
Sign him now, please.
BC, Craig could also claim his posts promote conversation…since most of the time 4-5 people can’t help but respond to one of his posts each time.
I think the guy who said that the Everett/Lamb type signings are helping to keep Santana might be on to something.
Sign a few guys on the cheap for this season while they sign off on 20 million for Santana.
Next year or two they start working in their young guys and sign the few more that need locking up, and in 2010 the new stadium opens.
It’d be risky, since there will be little room for error when it comes to getting contracts negotatied and everybody has to actually turn into the types of players we hope.
Am I missing something, didn’t Santana already turn down $20 million/year from the Twins?
I know in a perfect world we would re-sign him, but it’s not going to happen.
I, for one, don’t think that it is the best idea to give him much more than $20mil over 4 to 5 years.
If baseball salaries were not escalating so fast, it would be a horrible decision to sign Santana.
But, the escalation makes it a better deal because if Silva can command $10 million then at whatever $$$, Santana may be a good investment … except seven years is a big stretch now that none of the players will be using sterioids.
Given that the Twins have filled some of their biggest holes cheaply and maybe could find another way to engineer something for CF it does seem likely to me that they could keep Johan if it will make them more attractive to the fans.
Craig=Troll
What profoundly ignorant people like you fail to comprehend, is that a good year in the minors has nothing to do with major league ability.
I didn’t cite minor league numbers at all. That was three months of major league numbers from 2007 in which Kubel was the best hitter on the team.
Whatever. It’s people like you that make blogs a waste of time. I hope you’re happy to ruin a good debate.
Don’t worry about it, CMath.
You’re one of the best and respected Twins bloggers around. As you say, Craig is simply a troll.
Skin off your back my friend.
“CMath….You’re one of the best and most respected Twins bloggers around.”
I would agree with that, but I am THE best and most respected Twins blogger around.
T that wasn’t exactly a nice thing to say. I don’t mind Craig. I disagree with him, but I disagree with you too, and I try to keep the personal attacks to the fellow commenters, and bloggers, and go after the matter of the baseball team, but whatever you want to think T. You’re a great business loving mind. Nothing wrong with that. Baseball isn’t supposed to be about business, and it’s my passion so you get my passion whether you want it or not.
Ellsbury, Lowrie, Masterson, and Moss
for Santana is looking like a pretty fair deal, and Lester, Ellsbury, and Lowrie is looking like it’s not asking too much. I don’t think we’ll get it, but if we can get that offer does anyone think that the Yankees, or anyone else can top either offer?
I think the guy who said that the Everett/Lamb type signings are helping to keep Santana might be on to something.
Not sure about that… as is (with the recent signings) the Twins payroll is about $70mil for 2008.
BC,
Do you think Ellsbury is better than Span?
Ha! I’m just messing with you.
I still don’t see them keeping Santana T. You guys keep brining it up 7 years in this market cuts everything right to the bone, and we over value our own prospects.
I would love to keep Santana, but does anyone think if we keep Santana that we can win a division in the next 2-3 years? Then Santana will be getting paid 20 million and most likely just a really great pitcher, and not the best pitcher. With all the prospects we have in the minors it seems a wiser decision to trade him, and fill our line up, and our minor league hitters to fill positions for 2009, and 2010.
Ellsbury has shown everything that a prospect can to be a great pick up.
Lowrie could be a Nomar kind of hitting prospect.
Masterson doesn’t do a lot for me, but isn’t terrible, and I like Moss to replace Cuddyer in 2009.
Craig I think you are better than span, and you know how people just rip the hell out of you on here…
I will try to be nice about it, but I think you know what I think about span.
I think Jason Tyner is better than span, and cutting him was a good decision.
BA… Ellsbury is a better hitting prospect.
Command of the plate. Ellsbury knows how to get on base.
Arm Strength… Ellsbury isn’t great, but much better than Span.
Speed, Span has a slight edge, but base running, and baseball smarts… Ellsbury is 10 times the ball player that Span could hope to be right now.
I see Ellsbury as a 300 hitter with 30 doubles 5 triples, 5-8 homers, 60rbi, 100 runs, and 40 steals. with a 390-400 OB%
BC,
I am not sure that the Twins need starting pitching in return for Santana right now, but for sure it seems like they want it. One of my biggest frustrations with the club has been (since the TK years) the mistrust/inability to handle prospects at the major league level. Happened with Bartlett, happened with Garza, ditto for Casilla. I am not sure whether the BS regime will change things, but the mindset has been that a major league semi-proven veteran (who comes cheap) is worth more than a stellar prospect. I hope that this changes (and the recent signing make me think that it might be the case)
BC - I was hoping I could hear one of those colorful descriptive rants of yours on Span. They were classics and I honestly enjoyed them. I do know how you feel about him, but nobody can rip him like you can. I kept bringing him up and you kept flushing him. Ha-ha.
Craig, maybe another day. I’ve been dealing with too many personal family issues lately… It’s really hard for me to be consistant on my energy levels, and with Span… nothing more needs to be said. He’s going to be our AA CF’r this year. Pirdie will be our AAA Cf’r.
Thrylos98-
I know this team hasn’t been good with prospects, but they have shown patients with Kubel, and I think he’s going to do ok for them, nothing spectacular, but if he gets 500 atbats I see 18 homers and 75RBI. So basically Cuddyer with no defense.
Cuddyer is a prospect that it took time to get ready… Morneau, Mauer was a sure shot player, but they over valued him big time.
I think that Gardy does a better job with the prospects than TK ever could. How did we screw up Garza? He was drafted, played a year and a half in the minors and was in our rotation. He had an attitude problem, and was too arrogant with his pitching and Andy told Gardy to let him mature. I think Anderson is the best pitching coach in baseball.
So if we get Ellsbury I think we will have our best lead off hitter since Knoblauch, defensively he will never be Hunter, power he will never be Hunter, but he is the best option at CF that is out there for us to get.
Coco Crisp looks to be the 2nd best CF out there right now that we could get which kind of bothers me.
I think Lowrie is going to be a great hitter… and very much like Nomar an average fielder at best, but at this point they are barely prospects because both are MLB ready and the Twins haven’t had MLB ready hitters like this since Morneau and Mauer.
Just think of the 2010 lineup potential.
CF Ellsbury 300/400 30/5/5 65/100 30
LF Revere 300/375 25/5/5 75/100 20
DH Mauer 320/400 30/0/10 75/80 0
3B Lowrie 300/365 40/0/25 100/85 0
1B Morneau 280/375 30/0/40 120/100 0
RF Young 290/345 40/0/15 85/70 5
CA Morales 275/340 20/0/10 70/60 0
SS Casilla 265/310 20/10/5 60/65 20
2B Poulfe 265/325 20/5/10 60/60 10
Liriano, Sosa, Manship, Slowey, Dunesing
Pina, Perkins, Cali, Korecky, (a Reyes type) and another pick up with Neshak as the closer
and no I’m sure those numbers don’t balance out…
BC,
I like the 2010 potential (more than the 2008 or 2009 actually. The way I see it (only with current Twins on the roster is:
2B Casilla
CF Revere
C Mauer
RF Young
1B Morneau
DH ??? Lis???
3B ??? gotta come outside the organization
LF Kubel
SS Plouffe
Rotation:
Liriano
Baker
Slowley
Blackburn
Swarzak
Bullpen:
Bonser (CL)
Crain
Neshek
Guerrier
Perkins
(BTW I’d love to see Korecky in the majors but I doubt that he will make it; Cali just won’t cut it and is already old… just for fun, have a look at the minor league stats of Crain and Guerrier)
I too see Boston offering the best package. Basically Ellsbury is Reyes as a CF, with a bit less speed (ie steals). And Lowrie has a bright future. If we can get Lester too, you have to take that in a heartbeat.
As for 2010, a lot can change, but just from OUR ORGANIZATION I would see it more likely as:
Revere-CF
Plouffe-SS
Mauer-C
Young-LF
Morneau-1b
Parmalee-RF
Kubel-DH
Valencia-3b
Casilla-2b
Bench: Morales-C, Pridie-CF, Tolbert-MI, Winfree-3b/1b, Martin-OF
Liriano
Swarzak
Robertson
Slowey
Sosa (or if Santana’s gone, a SP from him, higher in this rotation)
Pen:
Neshek
Boof
Mijares
Perkins (2 great lefties)
Crain
Pino (great longman)
By 2010 Sosa will be a national headline pitcher. That kid’s going to be the real deal in my opinion. His makeup on the mound is great. His pitching form is solid, and that arm is amazing. I think he’s going to be groomed to be an ACE… not a bottom of the rotation guy.
Pina in one of those guys who if he ever figures it out he could be a great starting pitcher yet, but right now he’s looking more and more like the next Matt Guerrier… good enough to be a 5th starter, but better served as one of the best middle men in the game. Now Matty’s jacked it up a level, and is a top notch set up man.
I kind of agree with you on Cali, but I think Korecky will make the bullpen this year if Rincon is traded away, or Crain isn’t 100%.
I am not sure I like the Boof Bonser as a closer idea either.
I watched him early in the season when he was getting taken out of games, and the bullpen was blowing his leads… He was throwing fits on the bench like a little Btch, and I won’t have that as a closer. Especially when he backed it up with an ever increasing waistline, and a severe decrease in stamina.
I love his curveball, and his pitches themselves are great, but his head is a mess, his body is disgusting, and his make up as a man is something I question.
I was in the 7th row by the 3rd base line on the 87 reunion Saturday night game, and he just kept whining to Andy and to Mauer about how long the progression was… but he didn’t work on his pitches at all… He didn’t seem to be aware of what was going on, and didn’t rework his workout schedule… which just shows a lack of focus, lack of confidence, and a general bad attitude. So I will not see Ole Chubby Boof (OCB for short) as my closer… I like him as a long reliever more… 2-3 innings, but right now he’s like our 3rd starter!
BC
You do contribute to the blogs that I’ve read, after you finish you Pohlad/Stadium diatribe. If you want to take credit for increasing the volume of blogging, you’re certainly welcome to it.
The point I’ve tried to make with you, Kevin and others, is that the redundant posts just seem to exude negative energy all the time. Specifically about how a guy chooses to spend his money,it is his (regardless of how he made it). Yes I know he’s benefiting from public monies. But so do a lot of companies and individuals, hell even politicians.
Would I rather he spent freely like Steinbrener? Honestly? NO!!!! I’m actually quite proud to be a die hard fan of the Twins. I enjoy rooting for our team that is an underdog. They have to work the system to perfection in order to even have a chance to compete with many higher payroll teams. In fact most free agents are overpriced and underperform. And the Twins have done well in that area (knowing when to let players walk) in fact, other than David Ortiz (and he was still only a “prospect”) there hasn’t been another Twin that has left this organization to have so much success that we, the fans, have really missed them. We have made mistakes on signing outside Free Agents, but they have been minor mistakes. Not the ones that cripple a team’s chances.
Now granted I would like/expect to see Pohlad continue to increase the payroll. But I am comfortable with a business plan of 52% payroll to revenues. That is only breaking even and significantly higher than the majority of ML teams. As revenues from the stadium increase I expect more investment in the payroll department.
I certainly understand and recognize differing points of views on this subject. But I read and post these messages to socialize with other fans and share ideas. It just seems like a waste of energy when there is nothing we can do to change it, and when everyone who reads these posts are well versed in the anti portion of those posts. I hope things improve in your personal life. Enjoy the Twins, I lived in Las Vegas for 7 years and a sports team adds a lot of community to an area.
Sorry if that was one of my diatribes. Go Twins.
JP…. I would agree with most of your “diatribe”. As I have mentioned in previous posts, this is a fun winter to be a Twin’s fan. A lot of energy MLB wide is swirling around the Twins in our efforts to re-tool / re-load. A small or mid-level MBL team must take the approach of a college football team, try to remain competitive every year & hope to challenge for league titles every few years. Whether the Twins trade Cytana or not, THEY STILL ARE TRYING TO WIN. Compare this to the Marlins, they hope to just be competitive once every few years while keeping a young talent base in case they can get a new stadium. The Rays actually look like they are trying to become competitive now for the first time. The Twins have maintained more stability in management & leadership of any team this side of Atlanta. At least the Twins are TRYING to win. My biggest beef with the team would be their following the “slotting” system during the draft. Why be “good little soldiers” & follow Bud’s guidelines if teams such as the Tigers & Yankees do not. My hope is if they save money on payroll, they will plow much of it back into the draft…. so we can have more 5 star prospects in our system. All this said, The Twin’s will trade Johan & Nathan to NL teams. That is their historical precedent. Thus ends my diatribe.
D-backs and the Dodgers have just changed the landscape in the NL.Time for the Mets to step into the Johan derby for real.I think their fans will demand it if they expect to get to the WS from the NL.Johan for Wright would be simple but of course that’s wishful thinking.But a package headed be Reyes would be doable.A good hitting team then would. need a good fielding SS. Do we have the perfect guy for you,his name is Everett.The Dodger deal would have been better but that train has already left the station
JP- spot on.Your a true Twins fan.Those who are not true Twins fans should find another website
JP that was great. I feel the same way and I wear my Twin’s heart on my sleeve. I would however hope that we keep Nathan.
JP, Geno, Joe…
I believe a true Twins fan is one who roots for the players on the field to perform well, and win, and who wants to see this team doing as well as humanly possible, and not just someone who wants to see them do as well as possible in a tight financial structure that takes almost ZERO risk, and has practically no rewards from it.
We took advantage of a weak division for a long time, and had a magical 2006 that I will remember as much as any of the World Series teams we’ve ever had, but I do take offense to the implications that if we disagree with Carl Pohlad, and Management we are not true fans.
If the Twins decide to try to sign Santana they should go after Lofton for CF. He’s a bona fide leadoff hitter and that’s what they need. Cameron has a suspension and who would be our leadoff hitter?
If they trade Santana and it’s the Yankees: How about Santana and Monroe or Kubel for Hughes, M. Cabrera and H. Matsui.The Yankees get the best pitcher in Baseball, a LF, and Damon is back in CF.They also keep 2 of 3 of their pitching prospects. The 3 players we will get appear to be what the Yankees are willing to part with.
The Twins get a young CF, a solid veteran DH/LF and the pitching prospect that we want.
To make this deal the Twins would need to be confident that Lirano is coming back and will be effective and that the odds are better than not that Hughes is the real deal. The Twins will be throwing one dart (Hughes) as opposed to 2 (Hughes and I. Kennedy).
If we trade with the Red Sox, let’s get Ellsbury rather than C. Crisp. Crisp numbers are in decline and their not good enough. As far as the other players in this deal I would have to analyze this more.
JP-
I do agree with you on the free agent market. Most are overrated, and overpaid. While I can’t disagree with you on 99% of your comments on Ortiz, and the other players traded, or let go I will say that Ortiz wasn’t a prospect at that point in time. He had lead the team in homers the year before, and had played in MLB for a 2.5 seasons. Saying he was just a prospect at that point in time was like saying that Kubel is still a prospect.
Ortiz would have never found the success he did in Boston with the Twins. Our poor hitting coaches kept trying to make him do things he wasn’t comfortable with, and it took getting cut for him to start taking the game seriously… so while I badmouth aspects of the Twins it’s because I believe they could do better to back the players.
Free Agents are fun, and all of that, but the biggest gripe I’ve got with this team is the mid-season trades that never happened. Wiggnington, and another bat last year would have been signs that management cared about winning… The Shannon Stewart deal was magnificent for the Twins.
When you bring something in, it might not work as well as you’d hope. Don Baylor for instance, but what he didn’t give on the field, his presence took the team to a new level of confidence because it gave them the security that the management believed in them as a real contender. Phil Nevin was a failure, but it was an effort. Last year they needed two bats, and ended up trading one of the ones they already had. So those are the things that make me frustrated, and I don’t shake that off when it’s year after year.
Maybe you’re not that old JP, but I not only remember living through the Otis Nixon, Roberto Kelly years, but I was here for the Bombo Rivera and Hoskin Powell years, and the Rob Wilfong years. When they brought back Blyleven it was magical.
This team has gone away from that.
And while they have to have an astrix around them Morris, Winfield, Steinbach, and Molitor all provided leadership, and talent to this lineup. Granted we don’t have a lot of great Minnesotan’s out there in the Majors to bring home for the Homer-sota feel, but if they did their homework, and were committed they would have been able to add another player or two to last year’s roster.
While I think the offense will be better in 2008 than it was in 2007 by a lot… We don’t have Silva, we don’t have Garza, and we very well might not have Santana…
By bringing in a Colon, or a Garcia they bring in a pitcher that could pitch well, and bring some prospects in for 2009-2010 kind of like we use to do with guys like Dave Hollins.
By going after Mark Prior they show a willingness to take an educated risk.
Going after Dallas McPherson to a minor league contract with an invite to spring training they hedge their bets on the 3rd base situation.
By bringing in a Josh Fogg they can replace Silva’s innings with a pitcher who has post season maturity now, and with a good pitching coach like Anderson could be a great steadying force.
My guess, Colon 7 million, Garcia 4.5 with about 4 million in bonuses, Fogg about 3 years 10.5-12 million. Dallas McPherson 1.5 million with 1.5 million in bonuses if he makes the major league team, if he gets 300 AB, those kinds of things. And Mark Prior Sign him to a 2 year contract with an option for a 3rd at about 4 million, 5 million the 2nd year, and 9 million the 3rd year based on Innings, and quality starts.
Lamb is a marginal (I’m being kind) third baseman, but he’s a good first baseman. The best first baseman now on the team.
The Twins would be best served by putting Lamb at 1B and trading Morneau.
BC Beneke ….. do you agree the Twins are trying to win? If they tie up 1/4 to 1/3 of their budget in one player, will that allow them to win? Should the team spend 110% or more of their total revenue on payroll, a subsidy by the multi billionaire? I am fairly new to this blog & normally enjoy your blogs, but even the Steinbrenners are not subsidizing their team. Their budget is much the same as the Twins on a % basis. Common business sense tells you that as your volume of revenue goes up, it is easier to lessen overall ownership take on a % basis. I do admire your player knowledge & passion. Keep up the good work. …. Now the realcraig on the other hand just wants to irritate & get a response from others.
Columbo,
Everything I’ve read says that Hank and Cashman are going back and forth because Cashman has all but put his reputation on Hughes and does not want to part with him.
Also as the deals stand right now, Bostons is 10 times better in my opinion because it solves major problems.
With adding Matsui we have his monster contract we have to take care of because the Yankees have said they won’t go after Santana until Matusi is traded away. This is what the Yankees get for resigning Abreu. They didn’t need him, and they kept him anyways, and then over paid for Posada, Pettitte, and Mariano Rivera… so even the Yankees are tight right now financially because Santana’s 22 million a year or whatever would turn out to be about 30 million a year or more because of the Luxury tax. This is what I’ve read, and I added the over paid for the other players.
So Ellsbury, Lowrie, Masterson, and another prospect looking like possibly Moss for Santana is the best deal we’ve got.
It would be nice to add Rincon, or a younger prospect maybe Yohan Pina and try and get them to include Lester.
Craig Morneau is a great first baseman. Tell me one thing he’s done wrong at 1st. He makes all the plays, he has a very nice glove. He’ll never be Hrbek or Dougy Tball but he is a very good defensive 1st baseman.
Lamb is a solid 3rd baseman.
Please ban him and stop this nonsense.
We don’t need trolls here talking about how Mike Lamb is a better first baseman than Morneau.
Coco-
The only way that signing Santana to a 7 year deal is going to make this team better is if Pohlad chips the money in from outside his structure because he cannot in this format allow one player to make that great of a percentage of the salary cap.
So if he were to sign Santana, and bankroll part of that from his outside fortune, and mark it as 15-17% of the team salary, and bankroll the rest outside of team revenue… then yes, but I just don’t see him doing that. So he needs to trade Santana by the constructs of the current financial plan.
Austin, we can’t go banning people, that’s some short sighted freedom of speech issues, and I’m not willing to give away anymore of my personal liberties… we’ve sacrificed too many already.
So no one usually ever agrees with Craig. Sometimes he throws things out there just to throw up a Sht storm… disagree and move on. Don’t threaten to ban him. He’s not sending links to porn sites, or attacking your family man.
BC, Morneau isn’t a great 1B. You need to get some rest, brother. By current baseball standards he is adequate (again I’m being kind).
Lamb is error prone at 3B. Check his stats. He handles first. He’s WAY quicker and more mobile than the hockey player/catcher turned first baseman.
Austin is a girl.
BC,
Maybe I am naive here, but would losing T. Hunter’s contract and adding H. Matsui’s be about a wash?
He is a troll. Ban him please Joe.
wow i didnt know a 1st baseman with 30-40 home run power with a mvp award is awful…
JP at 3:34am, I agree.
It is like flogging a dead horse to keep ranting about Pohlad.
Some of this is simply understanding individual differences in people.
Accounting / banking types use objective standards to make decisions. They are called Balance Sheets or other financial records and they are very objective for analyzing investments.
Others of us think more subjectively, such as we “want” the good feelings from retaining Hunter, or Santana.
The difficulty is when these two cultures meet.
No doubt the Pohlads bought the Twins for the sake of the investment. I doubt that he acquired it to run as a hobby or a charity for the community. He seems to find quieter methods of making contributions to his favorite charities.
Hypothetically, if everyone here that calls Pohlad cheap were season ticket holders, and the price of the tickets doubled to pay a player $20 million for seven years, I wager there would be many of those same ticket holders jumping ship in mass exodous.
The point being that they seem to hold Pohlad to a higher standard than they are willing to hold themselves.
To those who believe Pohlad should have funded the ballpark himself, what about every other city that has MLB, the NBA, or the NFL?
Also, musicians do not fund music halls, artists do not fund galleries, librarians do not fund libraries, and the list could go on and on.
The point being that a ballpark is a municipal facility that will benefit many people that have not even thought of it.
When a great facility is built, it serves the community for many events for many years to come and it will benefit everyone.
The Metrodome has returned the investment to the taxpayers many times over, but the problem is that too many corners were cut so it never served anyone, especially the major tennents and their fans, and so it is obsolete well before its time.
In that regard, I wish the politicians would not have put so many constraints in the new ballpark. I wish it had a lid to be a year around building! I wish it would serve many events for many years and events that have not even been thought of yet.
For three cents on twenty dollars, the amount is insignificant to service the public debt.
Here is an interesting relationship. We would like the Twins to retain Santana for maybe $150 million for seven years. The public contribution to a ballpark is maybe $400 million and for that we get an important addition to the infrastructure of our state for fifty years if it is designed and built with a long future in mind.
It seems to me that the ballpark is a much better investment.
and 120 rbi’s
Craig
Justin Morneau
G 143 Ranked 2nd in the AL
GS 143 1st in AL
innings 1259.1 1st in AL
TC 1296 1st in AL
PO 1189 1st in AL
A 102 2nd in AL
E’s 5 Tied for 5th AL
DP’s 122 2nd in AL
Fielding % .996 5th in AL
RF 9.23 5th in AL (overbay, sexson, garko, casey topped him for range factor)
ZR .853 4th in AL (Kotchman, Casey, Youkolis)
Is he perfect? Nope, but is he terrible… I don’t think those stats show someone terrible.
Then add 31 doubles, 31 homers, and 111 RBI and I think you owe Morneau an apology Craig.
If the Twins think they have to trade Santana, they could get that second good pitching prospect they covet, by tossing Morneau in on the deal.
It would allow Steinbrenner to save face and would get the Twins the players they want.
Now that the Twins have Lamb, they wouldn’t miss Morneau at all. In fact they would be BETTER with Lamb replacing Morneau at 1B.
bc,
dont forget the mvp award
Iceman.
I think you hit part of it on the head, but until Baseball loses it’s tax exemption I will not look at it from a strict Dollar sign sport.
Why take the passion out of life? I mean why do Accountants have the 2nd highest suicide rate of any profession in the country? Because they go number crazy? Maybe, but more likely because they don’t have souls… they have no passion… they just see things in numbers, but the recent reports I’ve seen show that they are second now to IT guys… who I think probably just burn themselves for 18-20 hours a day for 3-4 years and burn out big time.
Business structure is nice, and trust me I understand where you are coming from. I disagree with you because I know of at least 20 authors that contribute quite nicely to libraries. I don’t know any artists that are worth billions. And if we go by that stand point then the players should be buying the stadium… you should have said the Publishing companies for the libraries.
I have no problem with the community paying for the stadium, but it does leave a bitter taste in one’s mouth when you get a new stadium just to see so much of the big name talent on this team just gone with nothing to see for it.
Bad timing, and a bad job by Terry Ryan from July of 2006 to his stepping down helped to build a bitterness towards the management… it is what it is.
If the fielders hit Morneau right in the letters with the throw, he catches it. 1)He still can’t pick it out of the dirt. He has no vertical or horizontal mobility. He doesn’t get called for errors, the player throwing the ball does. Nonetheless, he’s a stiff. 2)He still continually gets caught in that in-between play, when instead of pulling back and covering 1st and letting the 2B handle the
ball, he goes after it and can’t get to it, leaving 1B open. He has no judgement. 3)It’s a circus still on popups. 4)He gives poor feeds to the pitcher covering first. 5)He’s often out of position on the cut-off from the OF.
HE STINKS!!!! Admit it!
Here’s a plea to Joe C. Please ban Craig from any future posts. He just says things to make people mad. It’s horribly immature and ruins the conversation that everyone is trying to have. I mean seriously, Morneau does not need to be replaced.
Morneau can hit, though he hits way too many fly balls for outs. His hitting is still an asset.
Fielding he is bad. His speed is poor. His base-running is absolutely dreadful. The absolute worst base-runner the Twins have had since Mickey Hatcher. Morneau continually runs the team out of innings.
This Strib blogs are the only place fans gush over this player. He isn’t highly thought of around the country. Fans elsewhere don’t watch his crummy play with rose-colored glasses.
I think that Morneau is an adequate fielder and a core hitter.Stop knocking him Craig.
You suck!!!!!!!! He’s a first baseman. Who cares if he’s slow. First base is also the least important position for fielding. Shut up!!!
Tedge says: Teacher! Teacher! Craig isn’t being nice. If you don’t punish him, I’m going to cry.
What a sissy-boy.
Craig, did you forget to take your pills again?
I think you need to be taking your diarrhea pills too because your Span problem is going over to Morneau.
let me guess you liked Dougy Tball?
I mean Tball’s wife was hot, but other than that he’s pretty worthless.
“First base is also the least important position for fielding”……………..back to baseball 101 for you, son. You are remedial!
Yankee fan here. Please accept one of the Boston offers. What’s the hold up? Better yet, the Mets.
LEAVE PHIL HUGHES ALONE.
Dougy was excellent in his day. Way better than the stumble-bum.
I guess my feelings about Morneau are similar to your feelings about Span, though Morneau has at least made it to the big leagues.
Craig,
Look who plays first base around the league. Prince Fielder, Jason Giambi, Dmitri Young, Ryan Howard. Boy those guys are slick. Why do all the big guys go there? Because it’s the only position they can field at and not be a liability. Could that be because the majority of the things they are asked to defensively is catch a chest high throw. You are a F&^$ing idiot!!!
Craig… I go to several different sports pages throughout the country on here and I have only heard one group of people other than YOU bash Morneau… and those were Yankee fans in 2006 when Dereka Jeter didn’t win herself the MVP award.
BC
I never implied those who speak out against Pohlad and the stadium were NOT Twins fans. Just simply said that I thought it was a waste of energy when there is nothing we can do to change it and that all of us who read the posts are cognizant of the stances who have issue with the situation. I have no doubt you are a true Twins fan.
I attended my first game in 1983 at the age of 7. Was at the 1985 All Star Game, 1987 Game 6. Was a HUGE Bruno fan and was devastated when he was traded. I was at game 2 against the Blue Jays when we lost for the first time at home at the Homer Dome. Was at the Yankees game when Radke’s string of wins came to an end. So I’ve lived through and remained a fan through all of it.
When it comes to Free Agents and trades. I agree about taking chances. Sometimes the price is right and this are magical and sometimes they aren’t. TR in 2006 made a valiant effort to trade for Soriano, even as a rental. He drew the line in the sand in regards to trading Garza. If he pulled the trigger and had given up Garza to get Soriano and they won the world series, would it have been worth it? Probably but hard to say it would have worked for sure. And in hindsight we got Young who I think will be a superstar versus a three month rental and a dicey chance to win. (Don Baylor was a perfect addition but they usually don’t work so well. remember John Smilley in 1992 that didnt’ work so well) Last year they were two bats away no doubt. And the way the Yankees and Indians played I’m not sure we were a good enough team even then. I don’t know what the cost would have been to add those two hitters. Bad PR move to trade Castillo and it did upset some players. But as far as a pure baseball decision to trade him, it wasn’t a bad one. They thought Casilla was ready.
Lets agree on one thing. As far as judging their own talent, Ortiz is the only player that has left to have success. Right? Look at the ridiculous money thrown at Twin free agents (Guzman. I put “propsect” in when describing Ortiz very loosely. Comparing him to Kubel is valid. With the injuries the Twins think Kubel is just hitting his potential, where they thought Ortiz had maxed out. They were wrong. So were a lot of other teams. There was a line of teams waiting to pick up ortiz and even when redsox did sign him he sat for them early on. Twins made a mistake, no doubt. But they’ve had much more success than failures.
Go Twins.
So you are bashing your cleanup hitter for not being a great base runner, or being slow? Hrbek was fat, ate himself out of baseball, and was slower than hell, and you would never bash him because he’s from Minnesota.
Chris,
How’s it going in New Yawk?
I heard one Minnesotan say that the US was never attacked in 911. He said New Yawk and DC aren’t part of America, and it would have been best if they both had been leveled.
I’m an expert in baseball, and I don’t know much about politics, so I couldn’t figure out what the heck he was talking about. I sure didn’t agree with him though.
Real Craig:
I sense you are a closet NY Yankee fan and a general fan of NY.
LEAVE PHIL HUGHES ALONE.
Unlike you, I hold no animosity toward your team. In fact, I wish you well in 2008.
JUST LEAVE PHIL HUGHES ALONE.
For Santana, how about:
Melky + Kennedy + Pavano? That’s as far as I’ll go.
Chris
I’d rather keep him and let him walk at the end of 2008.
That trade would be better described as:
Santana and 10 mil for Melky and Kennedy.
And I hope I don’t even have to tell you what kind of deal that is for the Twins.
Hrbek was a sensational fielder. He was agile and quick He had quick, soft hands. He had a great vertical leap and was very rangy in the field. Hrbek had a true, reliable arm and was a good solid base-runner. The man was magic.
Hrbek can still play 1B better than the other guy. I don’t like to mentions his name in the same sentence with the great Hrbek. It seems so direspectful.
OK, OK.
Melky + Kennedy + Giambi then.
OK, seriously. I hope he goes to the Mets. For the frst time on 20 years the Yanks have developed young pitching. I want to see these guys work for us.
I think you should keep Santana. Those 2 draft picks might end up better than Elsbury + junk.
For the record, I am a Vikings fan.
Chris
trying to trade giambi, or pavano to the twins for johan is absurd way to think..
twins dont want big contracts in return..
i mean.. we have a cy young winner here..
hughes has to be part of the package..
MH:
Yes, I jest about Pavano and Giambi. Santana is great. I am not a fan of 7 year contracts to pitchers though, particulary when we’d have to trade a potentiall great young pitcher who is controlled for 6 years.
If Hughes’ arm falls off, we can absorb it. Not worth the risk for $140 million.
Hopefulkly Cashman is getting through to Hankenstein.
The funny thing is that people keep responding to it. How many times do people hvae to say ignore or don’t respond. It’s all just to garner attention, so stop giving the attention. It isn’t that hard!
only possible player the twins would take back is perhaps matsui..
but even in that case, we still get matsui, hughes.. twins still wouldnt have a CF.. so maybe they could flip nathan for Pie
also, if the twins would acquire matsui..
i think they should look long and hard at the trade the giants were thinking about making.. matsui for lincecum ..
but i think the giants may never trade with the twins again
Chris part of the price of Santana is keeping him away from the RedSox. Cuz if he goes there good bye division for the next five years. And actually I’m worried about trading with the Yanks. Seems like Yankee’s entire organization uses steroids. Your prospects will fall apart the moment their shipped over here.
Chris,
I love the Yankees. Especially their fans. The Yanks have a team salary ten times higher than some teams. The fans still act like their team is actually participating in a fair, competitive athletic event. That’s Chutzpah!
AMEN SETHSPEAKS!!!!
JP,
I was just worried that we have gotten to a point where showing any kind of distrust, or unhappiness with the organization would be BAD. I tend to believe that strength comes from being tested, and being challenged… when everyone agrees… I tend to get creeped out, and I will never be part of the main cog.
I will agree that the Twins have done a good job of knowing when not to spend the money on their own talent. I’ve made that very point on several blogs.
I think they really screwed up by not signing Hunter or Santana last year for a long term deal for a lot less. I also think they made a terrible mistake by not either trading for talent to make last year happen at the trade deadline, or trading Hunter, and Silva. Now we get next to nothing for Hunter, and NOTHING for Silva. We also got almost Nothing for Castillo.
We knew the Devil Rays were gung ho for Garza above all things as they wouldn’t take less than him for Wiggington, and then traded for a mediocre lefthanded reliever… we could have traded them Perkins and Cali and they would have done better… so knowing they wanted Garza I think we should have tried to extort them for more than Delmon Young. I’d have rather had BJ Upton or Crawford. Either of those two would have been able to step in at CF. Young not so much. Both are better power prospects, better speed prospects…
So I tend to think that we do know how to draft pitchers, how to raise pitchers, and we know when our players aren’t worth what they can get on the open market. However I think we need to do a better job picking up position players. I think we need to do a better job signing free agents, and we need to be able to prove that we can gut a team for Santana… I know that sounds bad, but we didn’t get enough for Garza and Bartlett, and we didn’t get anything for the other players I mentioned.
Hunter to the Red Sox last year for Lester and Ellsbury would have done oh so much right now for the Twins as the Red Sox would now be looking to give Buckholtz, Youkolis, and Lowrie for Santana.
Trading Silva to the Phillies for Burrell and a couple million dollars last year would have solved a problem.
Trading Castillo, and another prospect to get Gomez, or Pelfry last season would have put together a much better team.
The only one that I’m adlibbing on is Castillo. The others are offers I saw proposed around the country…
Everything has been handled so poorly for the last 18-20 months that it puts a HUGE amount of pressure on the Twins to trade Santana and Nathan.
I will put the past behind once the season starts… but until I see these things playout I don’t think I’ll play well with the other kids on some of this stuff.
MH:
Not that I would like it, but if the Twins would take Matsui and his contract, I almost certainly think Matsui + Melky + Hughes would get it done.
Seth,
Don’t worry. No one does pay any attention to you.
Santana/Rincon for matsui/hughes/ and a 3rd prospect
twins flip nathan for Pie
send cuddy/propsect to the giants for lincecum
pie - cf
harris - 2b
mauer - c
young - rf
morneau - 1b
matsui - lf
monroe - dh
lamb - 3b
punto/casilla - ss
liriano/hughes/lincecum/slowey/baker
i can live with that
JP:
Give me a break. Let’s give all the Twin’s former trainers the truth serum.
Chris
i think if its a matsui/melky/hughes deal then this deal would be done already.
my question is this..
if you think the yanks would part with matsuie/melky/hughes.. why wont they part with hughes/melky/tabata? or hughes/melky/jaskson?
are the yanks that interested in clearing matsui’s contract?
MH:
I don’t want it to happen, but Hughes is by far the best player the Twins have been offered to date. If you had the chance fo don’t get him, you’ll look back in 2-3 years regret it. Just like I’ll regret it if he is traded.
I actually want Santana to go to Boston. I do. Things never work out like they seem they should on paper.
Going to the Mets would be fine too.
MH
The Giants don’t need Cuddyer, and have already taken Lincecum off the table for Rios who is a lot better player than Cuddyer.
Pie is a great prospect, but he’s not as good as Ellsbury.
MH, Yes they are interested in clearing a contract. Giambi in not movable. Matsui is easier to trade than Damon. Matsui will give a team .290, 25, 100. Yanks have plenty of offense so not a huge worry.
If Yanks get Santana and don’t lose a contact, they’d be looking at at least $220 million this year in payroll. There is relief next year, but even the Yanks have a hard time with $220+ millino this year.
Pettitte’s return and the $16 million contract with it changed things.
Chris
the twins have openly said hughes is the best prospect..
problem is the twins dont think highly of melky.. they feel melky is a 4th outfielder at best.. twins need a CF so melky looks like a good option.. so like i mentioned.. maybe the hughes/matsui/3rd prospect works..
i really dont think you want johan going to boston.. they would be pretty good with that rotation..
pettitte wont be getting suspended..
will he?
Chris is dumb. A new Craig is born!!!!
BC
giants have been open to trading either lincecum or another young pitcher that they have?!?!?! cant think of his name.
so i think the twins could perhaps swing a trade..
i agree that pie is not as good as ellsbury.. but the cubbies have enough outfielders.. and they want nathan..
I doubt Pettitte will get suspended, but it’s possible.
I think you under-rate Melky a little. Not saying he is a star, but I have no problem with him manning CF for the Yanks. But I understand if you want a stud because you are trading a great pitcher.
You could probably have Jackson instead of Melky, but not both. Jackson could be a stud or dud, that is the rub. And he’s not ready yet.
Tedge:
Nice post. You add a lot to the dialogue.
I appreciate you back handed compliment.
Fair Enough..
Anyways.. its Football Time..
Have a good Sunday Folks..
Time to watch my fantasy team!
Craig… Morneau’s placement in the AL for his position offensively
AB 1st
Runs 3rd
Hits 1st
doubles 5th
triples 2nd (tied)
HRs 2nd (tied)
RBI 2nd
SB 12th (he was 1/2 stealing)
BB 6th
K’s 8th (5 guys with over 100Ks)
BA 6th
OB% 7th
SLG 2nd
ops 6th
Take Carlos Pena’s freak year out, and the only other 1st baseman that I’d put on Morneau’s planet is Youkolis out of the AL
Derek Lee, and Puljos are the only 1st basemen in all of baseball that I’d rather have than Morneau.
We need to keep the string of Minnesota to Boston in tact. You have been an outstanding minor league town for us.
first, papi, then Moss and garnett, even manny fernandez. Now johan, thank you boyz.
ps: if you want to throw in nathan we would appreciate it.
MH, the Yanks are interested in clearing Matsui’s contract to make way for Santana…so yes! But, they lose two outfielders with Matsui/Melky/Hughes for only Santana.The other two combinations are not enough for the Twins.
Chris,
I agree that the Yankees should pull back their offer of Hughes. Hughes could be a great ace pitcher for the Yankees for many years to come.
The Yankee fans are in general much more knowledgeable about baseball than people in Minnesota.
I read much of what was written in New Yawk in 2006 regarding the MVP debacle. Jeter deserved to win it. He truly was robbed. The stories and comments from the fans and the media in New Yawk at the time were very thoughtful and knowledgeable.
Morneau was not even the best player on the Twins team that year. Not even close. Unfortunately ignorant media types ganged up on Jeter and voted for Morneau to deny the Yankees and Jeter the crown they deserved.
There is a lot of hate for the Yanks and New Yawk out here in the sticks. Most of it is deserved, but a great player like Jeter should have never finished second to a bum like Morneau.
BC
What about Ryan Howard?
BC - Morneau is a decent hitter even though he does hit way too many fly ball outs. It’s the rest of his game that truly stinks.
He’s one dimensional. Even that one dimension isn’t that great. I mean really, at the plate this guy is no Albert Pujols.
Now that the Twins have Mike Lamb, they can go ahead and trade Morneau. Baseball WAY OVERVALUES home runs. This means that in the near future, the Twins won’t be able to afford Morneau. They will have to trade him. Good! He will never be missed as far as the Won - Lost column goes!!
Does anyone want to know my opinion of Morneau? I’ll try to restate it if you do.
All of you jobless bloggers are the core of a psychological experiment.
We are testing human response to annoying stimuli (my obtuse opinions regarding Twins’ personnel and management decisions).
The responses have been hilarious; especially from those of you who want me banned, yet can’t stop yourself from taking the bait.
Real Craig:
Not sure if you are sincere or not, but Morneau deserved the MVP in 2006.
Ryan Howard can’t field, and is pretty old for a 2-3rd year ball player. I like Morneau over Howard
BC,
If we trade with Boston I think the Twins need to include Ellsbury and Lester or Ellsbury and Buchholz. They say Boston wont include Ellsbury and Lester together & Buchhloz is untouchable…so I would say were at big impasse with them. I don’t think the Ellsbury/Lowrie/Masterson and 4th player is the right combination? Masterson is to far away to make an impact in the rotation and the Twins rotation would be losing Santana and with workhorse FA Silva…who is going to fill all those lost innings.
Make sure you guys all watch ARod on 60 Minutes tonight.
Columbo:
That’s what I don’t get. Lots Silva, Garza, and Santana without getting back a MJ ready stud pitcher? I don’t get it. You’re better off trying to win in 2008 and waiting for 2 draft picks.
The 12:18 post was by an impostor. This underhanded tactic is what happens when a person lacks the skill and self confidence to engage in intelligent discourse.
Beantown…
that’s fine… we can be your minor league teams all you want. You will still be a second class citizen compared to New York.
The Red Sox will never be the Yankees, The Patriots are amazing can’t say anything about them, but let’s see how your Celtics do if one of those three ball players gets hurt. And it didn’t hurt having an Ex-Celtic giving Garnett to you for minor league talent… Garnett should have been a Bull, but McChump sucks kind of like that Boston accent.
Iceman,
Sports stadiums are terrible investments for communities. They take money away from other public-works projects and the revenue that they, “generate” is only a shift of entertainment expenses that come at the expense of things like movies, restaurants, and theater. This has been studied and proven empirically time and time again.
I do not bait anyone, nor do I laugh at any one’s responses. Unless they are attempting to be funny. I have no psychological experiment going on, and my own comments are not obtuse.
Sorry 12:18 impostor, you struck out.
Will you guys give up the Matsui talk?
The Twins have ZERO need for him. We have guys at the corner outfield positions AND DH that are better than him AND cost a lot less money in Young/Cuddyer/Kubel. Matsui is old and is on the decline, and will probably miss some time due to injury.
There is no way in heck we take on Matsui; nor should we.
Good luck unloading that contract, Yankees.
BC,
I grew up in rural Minnesota and became a Red Sox fan in my 20’s and let me say that Beantown is not representative of most Red Sox fans. His attitude makes him a douche bag regardless of his team allegiances.
Columbo,
The Red Sox offer is still the best on the table. Just because the Twins have a whole lot of holes doesn’t make it any other team’s job to fill them with one trade for Santana. Under the Lester/Crisp/Lowrie/Masterson offer, the Twins would get three players who would be MLB-ready this opening day and one, Masterson, who could be ready this season maybe next. Under Ellsbury/Lowrie/Masterson there’s two MLB-ready players and one not too far away. If that isn’t enough then Santana won’t be traded.
Columbo.
That is why you put a flyer on Prior, and you go after Colon or Garcia, and Josh Fogg or Kris Benson if he’s 100% healthy.
I like Fogg more than Benson.
Fogg = Silva
and getting Garcia back in the AL where he was confident, and Prior with a real pitching coach… and they could be better than with Santana (not likely, but possible)
Ellsbury (+) as a leadoff hitter
Harris (+) for 2nd base power
Mauer (+) if healthy
Cuddyer (=/+) if healthy
Morneau (+) with a better lineup
Young (-/=) doesn’t equal Hunter’s power
Lamb (+++) Punto sucks
Kubel (+) showed signs
Everett (-/=) Bartlett was improving defensively, and was a better hitter.
Colon/Garcia 15-10
Liriano 15-7
Prior 15-10
Baker 13-13
Fogg 10-12 (180-200 innings)
Slowey 12-5 (lousy ERA, but he wins)
That’s 80-57 out of your starting pitchers
Chris,
I was being sincere. I think the Yankees would be making a huge mistake trading away Hughes to the Twins. Don’t do it. The Yankees need to be a little patient and keep some of those good young players.
I think even Melky could become a nice star player in NY. Not a superstar, but an excellent player for the Yanks.
On second thought, I think the twins should just seriously consider playing Punto at first base. After all he’s far superior to Morneau in base running and fielding. God most Twins fan don’t know what it takes to field a winning team. It’s defense and taking the extra base.
The Twins need to get busy and sign Santana.
Before the trade deadline next season, the Twins can dump a lot of dead weight and save some money (Monroe, Cuddyer, Morneau, Lamb). Almost 18 mil will be wasted on those players next season. Getting rid of them can soften the impact of Johan’s contract.
the real craig,
why dont you just go play for morneau then. i guess that would be better now right? as what your saying.. gardy doesnt care who plays what just as long as hes good friends with them.. and what do you know.. youll be a perfect friend for gardy
Matt, I won’t entirely disagree with you except that the national events, World Series, NCAA tournament, Super Bowl and other spectaculars involve a much larger audiance than just shifting the local entertainment dollar.
Many visitors are here spending money in our local economy that was earned in other places.
In fact, if a family comes to the Twin Cities for a weekend from Iowa, North or South Dakota, or Canada to watch the Twins, it may be a shift in their individual entertainment dollar but it is a net gain in our local economy.
And while here they are not merely buying Twins tickets, they are going to the Mall of America, clubbing, dining, motel patrons, etc.
Also, impossible to quantify, the value of free marketing by having your city spoken in a positive light on a national or international basis.
And, entertainment dollar is part of the entire equation in every economy.
I think we might agree that statistics do not lie, but that you can skew stastics to support nearly any position you want to take. Conseqently, intelligent people can draw different conclusions when looking at essentially the same data.
If it was not important to the , why are all of us spending hours writing about it? There are already over 300 posts on this thread.
12:44 is of course the spineless imposter. You are afraid and intimidated by me. You little chicken. You aren’t even smart enough to be a good impostor.
and lets have T.C. play 3rd instead of lamb cause hes faster….. cause you first said hes great better then morneau now your saying he sucks.. so ok he sucks.. then put T.C. there. (i heard he has some power) and can tackle little kids on the basepads. hes also really fast
he only tackles people if they are really far ahead on the game before the baseball game starts
Baseball before 1976, when players were tied to their teams by the reserve clause, was a different game. That game no longer exists & fussing won’t bring it back.
Baseball’s limited revenue sharing lessens the advantage of a Yankees / Red Sox revenue stream. But only “lessens”; they can at least try to paper over their mistakes with money, the Twins have to try to survive them.
People who are bitter because ownership won’t support a Yankee-type payroll out of their own pockets are to be pitied.
Spineless 12:44 impostor,
Craig NEVER takes the name of God in vain. You haven’t been paying attention!
“Spineless 12:44 impostor,
Craig NEVER takes the name of God in vain. You haven’t been paying attention! ”
stop trying to get attention. its ruining the thread and no one is writing on it anymore… nice job! 
I thought as a freshman, Morneau was a terrible fielder. As he has played, I see him getting lots better and I believe he is much more now than just an adequate fielder.
It is hard for me to see criticism of Hrbek. I thought the system was flawed in never recognizing him with a Gold Glove.
To me, that he never received multiple Gold Gloves indicated they were awarded after adding the offensive categories. And, that not receiving one made a mockery of the award!
And, to those who like DM better, I will only say we have been blest with great fielding at 1B.
….says,
We have appreciated all your comments over the past months. The blogs would be nothing without YOU.
I was just kidding. That wasn’t an impostor just more great analysis by yours truly. Trade Morneau for Jeff Weaver. You heard it hear first.
Iceman,
There’s a Wellesley economist who has looked at the stadium issue extensively and his conclusion, if I remember right, is that sports stadiums cost local economies $10 per person. And that’s fine if a locality makes the decision that, yes, we’re OK with that… we like having a national presence, we like having a franchise to talk about, etc., etc. But it is a net drain on the local economy.
I enjoy reading the blogs and people’s posts, but I was wondering if there is any way someone can be banned from posting. I cannot stand reading posts from The Real Craig.
It’s not my fault someone is disrupting the board by being an imposter. These things happen. People will do strange things. We will just have to be disrupted I guess.
Chris,
I agree with your concerns about losing all those innings.If we keep Santana…we should sign Lofton in CF as a leadoff hitter. I’m the poster child for getting him if we keep Santana.
Dustin,
I respectively disagree with your comments about Matsui. His numbers are solid and consistent throughout his career. He picked up right after his wrist injury over a year ago. Also, he fits the mold of past veterans like Don Baylor and Chili Davis back in our hey day. I think he would be a fine addition and this would meet my earlier post of the Twins needing atleast 6 starters with high BA and.340+ OBP to be a more competitive offensive team (5 of the 6 have met this benchmark consistently).
BC,
I like the lineup that you are presenting with Ellsbury included. You have thrown a few new pitchers at me…are they all available and could the Twins realistically obtain all of these guys? I need to further study this to make an intelligent comment.
1:01 is the spineless imposter.
Likely one of the little girls who hang around these blogs. Or it is one of the little boy-girls who hang around these blogs.
Here’s a rundown of Morneau’s terrible statistics:
Batting Average: .271 (Might as well have hit .200)
Home Runs: 31 (1 less than Pujols. You suck Justin)
RBI: 111 (What, you couldn’t do better than 5th best in baseball for 1b)
Most Importantly SB: 1 (My first baseman, and any good one would have at least 15 of these, when is major league baseball gonna realize)
I rest my case. Morneau is easily one of the worst hitting first basemen in baseball. And that’s before you get to his average defense. After we all know that you need a good fielder over there to catch those popups and chest high throws. Yeah me!!!!
has23,
You are probably reading posts by the spineless impostor. Those are the ones that are annoying you.
My posts on the other hand are informative, knowledgeable and appreciated by most everyone but an occasional malcontent.
Sorry about the confusion.
I love me, I love me. The worst poster that could be. With a great big ego and a brain that doesn’t work. It’s no wonder I’m a jerk.
1:09 is the imposter. He/she does a very poor job as an imposter. Obviously a Morneau fan he has gotten his feelings hurt. Boo-hoo.
1:13 Impostor,
You’re getting better. I liked that one.
Can these posts by the spineless impostor stop. I am informative and this guy is plain dumb and petty.
Listen Impostor, people can’t tell the differences between our posts. That’s because mine are insightful and yours aren’t. Wait a minute why can’t they tell the difference. Oh my stars, my posts must be dumb and petty too. Oh no, I finally see it.
Oh, wait a minute. The impostor is making great points. So I am not petty and dumb. The rest of you are. Morneau is terrible and should be replaced by Punto. That will increase our infield hits. And we all know infield hits are central to Championship ball clubs. Just look at the stats.
Sorry about the confusion.
1:17 Impostor,
That was good. An impostor of the impostor. Or something like that.
Since the spineless impostor has hijacked the blog, The Real Craig is signing off and will change his name.
Any further posts as The Real Craig are from the spineless impostor. What intrigue!!
Spineless Imposter,
Great job.
BC,
One more thought, about your comment about Punto. He defintely disappointed last year, but lets don’t forget he had a great year at the plate in 2006 and he has an awesome glove. This will be a big year for him with whatever at bats he gets…make or break. Hoping he becomes a piranha again.
Holy cow,
I leave for a couple of hours and this chat goes to crap. I’ll try and get it back to normal. It’s interesting that the Yankees want to clear Matsui’s salary to potentially acquire Johan. We all know that Melky will be in the trade, but doesn’t that leave the Yankees short on outfielders. They would only have Damon and Abreu left. Plus Shelly Duncan, but that would leave them with a terrible defensive outfield. I wonder who they would target if this trade ever goes through. Mike Cameron, Shannon Stewart, Brad Wilkerson, Kenny Lofton, Geoff Jenkins, Luis Gonzalez, Reggie Sanders, Corey Patterson, Jason Lane, Kevin Mench, Emil Brown, Jason Tyner and Bobby Kielty are all left in FA. (Cameron makes some sense except for the drugs, maybe Lofton too) Doesn’t really seem very exciting to me. They would probably prefer not to trade for one (Jason Bay), since they will have used some of their best prospects to get Johan. Interesting situation that may or may not have an affect on the trade going forward.
Craig says he’s coming back with a different name. I agree, good work impostor, but we haven’t seen the last of him.
wow im glad thats over.. the whole blog was screwed atleast now its ok
To back you up Columbo. I think Punto does have value as a utility player. Lets just hope his batting ability is at least an average of the last two seasons. 2006 was probably over his head. 2007 was just a disaster. Split the difference and he’s useful in a backup role.
guys its not that hard.. hes looking for attention. if someone says something on this blog thats stupid and not true DONT COMMENT!!!! ITS NOT THAT HARD!!!! IF YOU DONT RESPOND TO THEM THEY WILL STOP!!!
BC Beneke, back aways, I only was summarizing why I thought there was so much adverse opinion toward Pohlad. And why I think many of those criticisms were really not fair.
I do not advocating taking away any pride or fan passion from the game.
Consider, Carl Pohlad looking at a questionable investment is probably like handing a virtuoso violinist a ukelele and demanding they make fine music.
Pohlad’s ability to determine a good investment from a bad one seems to be pretty unique.
At some point, an owner like him paying Hunter a five year contract as a for instance, is akin to tossing money down what he thinks is a rat hole.
By declining, he essentially decided not to use the middleman because he could just toss his money away himself.
I am not sure about your suicidal rate concerning accountants. I have many friends from that profession, developed from supplying products to their offices for much of my career. In fact, of the well over a thousand I have known I can think of only one who it may have applied to.
I do not think it is fair to say accountants do not have souls. They may understand ‘costs much better than opportunity’ which is difficult to measure by any standard. But most accountants I am familiar with understand cash flow and obviously where is the money coming from is a question they answer before they purchase something. That may be why people like Pohlad did not try to retain Hunter.
Matt: I am not unhappy that Hennipin County decided to fund a good share of the ballpark which they did.
I only wish that the public had viewed this ballpark as a community asset, and allowed a ballpark to be built with a retractable top and whatever amenities so it could have been used in all year, for all sorts of other events.
That there were compromises, we may later regret. We will only have ourselves to blame.
Hopefully Craig will not come back. I love Joe’s analysis, but Craig makes me want to avoid this blog altogether.
Non-responsive did not and would not stop Craig.
The Spineless Imposter torpedoed him.
Craig has been a great contributor to the blogs. He is knowledgeable, intelligent, articulate and he has done a great job enlightening people and helping them to reach a higher understanding of baseball.
People are envious of him, that is why there are so many Craig’s on the blogs and so many people who pretend they are Craig. Craig is the best and will no doubt continue to be copied and imitated by others.
I am joining the Craig’s. There really can’t be too many of us.
Craig is correct about Morneau. He is a grossly overrated player. Right now there are still plenty of teams who have the mistaken belief that he is a quality player. This would be the ideal time to trade him.
Craig is right in advocating a trade of Justin Morneau. His fielding woes have hurt the team and he is a very poor base-runner.
No one is better at explaining this all than Craig. I am sure he will return as one of the many Craig’s quite soon.
He’s back!!!
Iceman,
My biggest gripe with sports stadiums is that they subsidize private entities. If the franchises were sold to the city or county or even shareholders like the Packers, I would find them less loathsome. But they’re basically just a public-to-private transfer.
Although if the Twins stadium HAS to be subsidized by the public (which, again, I’m against) Hennepin County is probably the best public entity to do it. It’s not really fair to people in the Iron Range or Moorhead or Windom to pay for it out of general state revenues… they may make a few games and follow some but it’s really the Metro area that benefits. Similarly, it’s not fair to just the city of Minneapolis to pay for it and have the suburanites go to the games from work and then go home. So Hennepin makes the most sense… but it makes the most sense for something which doesn’t make sense in the first place.
Hey Craig,
I just wanted to tell you something. I do agree with you that Morneau is overrated. But not by that much. You make it seem like he’s the reason the Twins aren’t as “good” as the Indians or Tigers. He’s the best first baseman the Twins have had since Hrbek (who was underrated). It’s fine that you have that opinion, just don’t present it as fact. It’s what you believe not everyone has to agree with that.
Mauer and Redmond are two fine catchers, Everett and Punto will be a great double play combination. Other than that, no other hitter is really worth being all that excited about. The Twins could turn over all of them and it wouldn’t be any great loss. Mauer, Punto and Everett are the nucleus.
Matt,
A rooting interest in the Twins is a public entity. That’s why they get the stadium. You are not paying for a house for the Twins to live in. You are paying for your right to cheer for them. It’s a lot easier to cheer for them when they have a new stadium that increases revenues and therefor increases the product that they put on the field (hopefully). I consider the money that Hennepin county tax payers invest in the Twins as being their way to cheer for the best team possible.
I wish Craig would return. I miss him. This blog is not the same without him.
I am hoping that Bill Smith was sincere about giving Darnell McDonald a chance to compete as the Twins CF. He has excellent speed, a good glove and a great deal of athletic ability. He deserves a chance. I think Craig mentioned that he likes him, but I can’t remember which Craig. There are so many of us.
What’s the famous saying? Good fielding and baserunning beat good hitting any day of the week.
Get out of here Craig. It is obvious that you have to create new names on here to try and post. Most of us come here to try and have a civilized chat about the Twins, but with you trolling on this board, it is not possible. Joe C., please do what the majority of your readers are doing and ban any activity from Craig’s IP address.
Darnell McDonald may be the best player in baseball next year. Mark it down.
I think Craig will be returning soon. It is really difficult to outsmart Craig. It’s difficult to outsmart any of the Craigs for that matter.
The corner positions don’t look very good for the Twins, though Young could still develop. Lamb, Cuddyer and Morneau are junk.
The Twins still have an opportunity to be excellent up the middle in 2008 and are already 3/4 ways there. Mauer, Punto and Everett might be the three best players in baseball at C, 2B and SS. That’s pretty exciting for a Twins fan.
AUSTIN SAYS:
MOMMY! MOMMY! It’s so unfair, Craig is so much smarter than me. HELP ME, MOMMY!
You know who else is amazing? Matt LeCroy. What a baseball player, he could do it all. And the Twins had some AMAZING signings last year, Tony Batista, Sidney Ponson. Wow, if the Twins just brought back these people, 162-0 baby.
Matt, I live on the edge of the Iron Range and have all my life. I have always been willing for Minnesota to subsidize a Twins park.
As strictly a ballpark, it is a much more difficult decision to build a facility than if the facility has all year possibilities.
Worse than the Twins, are stadiums for the Vikings and the Gophers. One day a week, less than twenty games a year combined at a time of the year when families cannot travel together. I think it is fair to say your premise of it being redirecting the entertainment dollar is much more valid in these two situations.
At least the Twins ballpark involves family summer vacations for people throughout the entire region, and regular visits from other states and Canada. It is easier to visualize the payback.
The base of my thought has always been, how much does the entity contribute to the community economically. That is the amount their is a return on, any more is a gift.
Can Joe C. actually ban people. Is it true that Craig got banned for Harold’s. If it is someone should shoot him an email or something.
Matty is wedged in the door at the Old Country Buffet with Boof and Cuddy.
You are right Mega Craig, we should bring LeCroy back. We need to see him in a foot-race with Kubel. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
All Craigs are always right.
“Craig got banned at Harold’s” HAHAHAHA
“Craig got banned at Harold’s”
I can’t stop laughing!!!!!!!!HAHA!!!
Why did Harold ban Craig? HAHA!!!!!!!!!
Bye Bye Craig. Have fun in the chat by yourself.
Tedge, Punto does have some value as a utility guy who can play 5 positions and play at least 3 of them well defensively. Both ‘06 and ‘07 were aberrations and his ‘08 will porbably split the difference. He is a career .243 hitter. Split the difference between .290 and .210, and you’re close. He is just not a guy you can pencil in for 500 AB. I have no problem giving him spot starts to rest guys or making him a late inning defensive replacement for Lamb. As a regular, he’s one of the worst players in all of baseball. In a utility role, he can help.
A recurring thought I have had concerning Ellsbury.
If any of you needed to build a new house, and selected a builder then came to a mutual agreement on some framework of building it in the future … in six months or a year, so that the basis for an agreement was in place.
Then, when those conditions passed and you went back to the builder who then said: “no, I won’t do it”.
Would you be eager to rehire the contracter again? I sure as hell would not even consider it.
Scott Boras.
ARod had an interesting statement which makes me think he is someone I could not trust so I would avoid him.
Why would the Twins ever wish to hire a ballplayer that is represented by Boras?
I have composed myself.
Back to baseball and the market for Johan Santana. I believe the Twins have all but made the decision to keep Santana.
No teams are offering much for him, and the consequences of hurting ticket sales by trading him is I’m sure weighing in on their decision.
The most likely outcome now is that the Twins will open the season with Johan on the team. If the Twins quickly fall out of contention, they will re-visit the possibility of a trade.
A question for the masses.
Right after the Twins moved to Minnesota they had a slick fielding 1b named Vic Power. An interesting ballplayer.
Out of the blue he was dealt to the Angles for some pitcher named Donahue.
Power was good, Donahue was not MLB.
It had to be the worst trade in Twins history.
I assume it was a clubhouse problem, that Power had some unspecified problems that caused him to be moved decisively for basically nothing.
Anybody here that know why Power was dealt away from the Twins?
Tedge, You call Harold and see if he will lift that darn ban on me. By the way, who is Harold?
Iceman, that worries me about Ellsbury, too. I’d love to have him, but Boras is probelmatic. I’m not saying I wouldn’t take him solely because of Boras, but it would be a big factor. My htinking on a trade with the Sox would be both Lester and Bucholz and we’ll take Coco “the Albatross Around Boston’s Neck” Crisp to hold down CF until Revere is ready. That being said, getting both Lester and Bucholz is probably wishful thinking.
That is a random comment Iceman
Iceman,
Vic Power was a great one. I think he won 7-8 Gold Gloves. He was known as a great guy in the clubhouse with a fun, sparkling personality. He was Puckett-like only more playful.
The Twins had Don Mincher and Killebrew who were younger. Mincher was pretty good with the glove also.
The thing about Boras is that he really doesn’t get a say in what Ellsbury makes for like three years. So it really doesn’t matter who represents him until the offseason of 2011. That being said, I would prefer he had a different agent also. It’s a definite strike against him.
Once I saw some graffiti that said:
“Those who write on outhouse walls
Should have to roll their $..t in balls
Those who read those lines of wit
Get to eat those balls of $..t”
To some degree there is a message for every one of us.
Craig, some of what you post is thought provoking, I do not disagree with all you post. But, you could give people a break too.
Matt and BC,
sorry i had to go out and shovel from the big storm we are getting.
Bc,
WE love being a 2nd class citizen to all those amazing new york teams:
Yankees: 26 amazing championships in their history, none since 200 and billions spent in ther quest.
Mets: beat us in “86, damn Buckner and stanley. but hugh choke artists since then.
knicks: give me a break.
ny rangers: yankee clone without the results
yeah its great looking up to them.
matt,
your a douchbag…. nice chatting with ya
Back to Boras, what if he said something like “we will not report until the contract is renegotiated”.
Other people have held out, I know the player does not get paid.
My point is what sort of future nonsense could Boras pull that would diminish Ellsbury to us?
I should have used spell check..lol
That is the same Vic Power I mean, Craig.
But Killibrew was in LF or 3b at that time and though I liked Mincher I recall that he had more of a bench role.
It seemed to me that Power must have been involved in some unseemly conduct around his teammates that potentially would embarrass even Cal Griffith to be moved under those circumstances.
Baseball players don’t hold out Iceman.
We need another spineless impostor. Better yet, everyone not named Craig just stop posting for a few days. I can just hear Vin Scully:
“There’s Craig, alone with his thoughts.”
Iceman, Boras may not be able to directly hold out, but he could suggest to Ellsbury that he reject any attempts by the Twins to sign him long term.
That way Ellsbury plays out his years of servitude and hits the FA market.
And since Ellsbury has been in the media saying he was glad he didn’t get traded, I can imagine he’d like that idea a lot.
The Twins have been burned bad by Boras agents before (Lohse for example). I can’t help but think that it may be something that nags at Smith.
Iceman,
I know Power used to annoy the opposing teams at times because of his talking and joking. I don’t recall the circumstances of his leaving all that well.
Power is one of my personal favorite Twins of all-time. Top ten for sure. Maybe top five. The guy could flat out play baseball.
“There’s Craig alone with his thoughts”
I agree to be the solo blogger. I will assume different names and carry on lively discussions as well as heated debates.
I don’t think it is really necessary for the rest of you to post anything anymore. In fact Joe doesn’t even have to offer a topic. I can think of that.
I guarantee 100 posts each day minimum. I am capable of blogging 24 hours a day. I need little or no sleep. I could do La Velles blog also, including all the posts.
ok back.
Iceman. Boras is the antichrist, but sometimes you have to do a deal with the devil to be able to make it through this life.
Ellsbury is the best CF prospect we can find, and the fact that Boras took him means that he thinks that Ellsbury is a sure fire hit.
Try and think positive.
Besides Boras has taken it in the chops so much so far this offseason he might be looking for something to fix his reputation as the cancer of baseball.
I wrote a blog a while back that posted a bracket of the worst people in the world… I’m a writer, so I deal more international than just national, and Scott Boras scored 7th out of 20 people on my list… so when you take out the International votes Boras would have been third behind Bin Laden and Bush.
The Triad Of Evil:
Boras……Bin Laden…….Bush
As for the pitchers I mentioned.
Josh Fogg is a FA from Colorado who pitched great the last half of the season, and in the post season. Kind of a Silva type pitcher.
Freddy Garcia was a stud in Seattle, did ok in Chicago, and washed in Philly. Coming back from an injury.
Bartolo Colon amazing talent, amazingly large gut… could give Boof a run for the money at fattest SOB in Twins stripes… However if 100% healthy he’s a top 20 starting pitcher.
Mark Prior was cut by the Cubs last week.
So yes all 4 of them are available, and in all honesty I think you could get 3 of the 4 of them for less than we pay Santana right now.
So let’s see the Twins make a pitching pick up in the next couple of days.
Benson and Trachsel are out there as well, and those two are more like the Ponson and Ortiz pickups from last year.
Strange, but I like Bin Laden the best of the three.
Yeah, a lot better than the other two.
A whole lot better.
Tons better.
At least your posts got funnier Craig.
Leave Phil Hughes alone. Take one of the Boston offers please.
BC,
Josh Fogg maybe OK. The others are big names, but Garcia for example, just had shoulder surgery and we already have Lirano trying a come back. Do we really want to take this risk on several pitchers all at once?
Tell me if I am crazy or not, have the Twins thought about converting G. Perkins into a starter?
Chris,
Why again do you not want the Twins trade for Hughes…I thought you said ealier he’s probably the best player offered, so far, of any of the discussed trades?
It’s sad to see Garcia has fallen from his original spot. I still remember that night he and Johan pitched one of the tensest games I’ve ever seen.
Perkins is a starting pitcher, and that’s what the management wants, but Gardy has begged them for two lefty relievers in the pen that can get the job done, and Cali hasn’t been doing that.
Colon is a big name, and so is Garcia. Here is the upside. You get those players in here, and they are healthy to play and they are pitching well, but the Tigers and Indians are still beating our brains in… which is possible… Then we can turn around and trade a healthy Colon with a 3.50 ERA and 12-7 record to a team like the Dodgers for LaRoche, or Eithier.
We get a healthy Garcia, and turn around and trade him back to the Mariners for their AA power hitter… can’t think of his name.
WE take a major risk on Prior, and if he’s 100% healthy… he’s a STAR… not a big name… a pure star, we could sign him to a 2 year deal for less than 10 million, and have a club option for a 3rd year at 9 million.
That means you could hypothetically get a rotation in 2010 of Prior, Liriano, Sosa, Slowey, Manship. I think those top 3 starters are all capable of winning 20 games a season if 100% healthy.
So think about it, yes there is a risk, but there is also reward. Think like when we picked up Dave Hollins, and turned around and traded him to the Mariners for this AA fat guy named David Ortiz. All of a sudden you get a LaRoche, you get Ellsbury, and you get Prior…
so by the 2009 season you are looking at a team like this.
CF Ellsbury
SS Lowrie
CA Mauer
RF Young
1B Morneau
3B LaRoche
DH Lamb
LF Kubel/Moss
2B Casilla
The other nice thing is that if Everett comes on and has a decent gold glove calibur SS with a 250 BA and we are out of the race… he could bring a mid level prospect back from a team like the Red Sox who would want a defensive replacement for their middle infield at the end of the game.
Yes we have risk… but I’ve been screaming this in silence here for a long time. YOU NEED TO TAKE A RISK TO GET ANY REAL REWARD. We can keep this team cute, and competetive without MASSIVE effort if we trade Santana and Nathan… however if we take a little bit of an educated risk in a player like Prior, or a Colon, or Garcia… it is an educated risk.
As for Fogg… He’s not going to be expensive, and if he is… don’t bother. Prior however is an almost MUST to take a chance on.
T,
I remember that game. It was awesome.
I bet Perkins relieves. Seems like a better chance for success there. I also don’t see the Twins signing any of those pitchers. Why sign old guys when we have young guys who can probably be as effective for a fraction of the price?
Columbo:
Because I am a Yankee fan.
Well then Chris. Don’t you want Santana. You realize he’s better than Hughes will ever be.
Tedge:
Probably true. But Hughes may be just as good as Santana in, say, 3-4 years. Santana is at his prime right now. Hughes is not close yet.
More importantly, Hughes will cost the Yanks about $15-$20 million total over the next 6 years. Santana? $113 million.
What is Santana throws out his arm? Crushing blow to any franchise. If Hughes throws out his arm? Not that big a deal.
Don’t get me wrong, Santana is awesome. Anyone would want him pitching for his club. But Hughes + $140 million? No thanks.
I here what your saying. Are there any left handed relievers out there that we could obtain, because Perkins has stats that are good against both sides of the plate, although it’s a small sample size…just throwing out an option.
Tedge:
I watched Hughes all year. Near no-no against Texas in 2nd start. Pulled hammy. DL. Rushed back because Yanks needed him. Velocity was down when he returned. He just was getting back to normal when he shut down the Indians in the ALS for 4 innings.
Despite injuries (also sprained an ankle while re-habbing hammy), his season numbders were very good. Hitters hit .235 against him, leading the club.
The kid has a presence on the mound that can not be taught. He is not flustered by anything. And we’re talking about playing in NY here.
His minor league numbers were off the charts. He’s only 21.
That’s why I think it would be a major mistake to trade him. He also represents the resurgence of the Yankee farm system.
Absolutely nothing against Santana. He’s great.
Chris,
My sister and brother-in-law live in NY and I was able to take in a Yankee game this past summer and I was glad I got a chance to see the stadium before they move.
I think you need to give up some future value to get some near term value. After all your chasing the Red Sox and not the other way around. Therefore, you let the Red Sox upgrade now with Santana.In the meantime, your team signs your top players and waits 3 or 4 years for all 3 of your young pitchers to mature. Instead of dealing one of the three…hmm…interesting new strategy.
BC,
I’ve been posting (and was one of the first if not the first to bring up Prior) that I like some of the pitching options out there. Look what we did with Ramon Ortiz, turned him into a decent prospect. If we brought Colon and Garcia back to a respectable level we would have even more chips to trade. I even liked signing Silva to a 3 yr below market deal (if we trade Santana). He is not great but is an inning machine. Very important to a young staff. Trade him the moment our young pitchers prove healthy (Liriano) and effective (Boof, Slowey, etc.). But I agree 100% with your line of reasoning and have brought up similar stuff in the past. Don’t know why we couldn’t get management on board.
Chris, next year the Yankees get break on the luxury tax because their building a stadium. After that a lot of bad contracts come off the books: Damon, Giambi, Pettite, etc. Hughes has amazing potential thats why the Twins want him. I can understand why you want to keep him. But it is only potential he may develop he may not. And with an aging team (Rivera, Posada, hell even Jeter is no spring chicken) you play to win NOW!! Money is no issue, you take the best pitcher in the history of the game (for a 4 year stretch) to win now, and to keep him away from RedSox and prevent them create a DYNASTY!!!
Colombo and JP:
You both make great points. I admit I may be too emotionally attached.
You might be right. I need to think this through.
It would kill me to see Hughes win a Cy Young in 3 years in a Twins uniform. No offense. But you’re right, potential is a tricky thing.
” I even liked signing Silva to a 3 yr below market deal”
You assume that Silva is going to take a 3 year market deal? Have you not been following ANY hot stove news at all? UNDOUBTEDLY, he’s seeking a 4 year/40 mil. deal.
“Ellsbury is the best CF prospect we can find, and the fact that Boras took him means that he thinks that Ellsbury is a sure fire hit.”
Or rather, Ellsbury is a sure fire hit to make Boras money.
“Ellsbury is the best CF prospect we can find, and the fact that Boras took him means that he thinks that Ellsbury is a sure fire hit.”
Just like Matt LeCroy is?
LeCroy’s agent is Boras? That’s hilarious.
Story below says the twins signing of everett may hint that they’ll keep johan. interesting…
http://mlbfleecefactor.com/2007/12/16/phil-rogers-santana-speculation-mitchell-report-thoughts-etc/
So is Kyle Lohse…
Chris,
I’am having trouble thinking of trading Santana…probably is not the best thing to trade him to either your Yankees or the Red Soxs.But can we afford him or is the Twins management really committed to signing him? Does Santana seriously want to stay here?
Todd Anthony:
“” I even liked signing Silva to a 3 yr below market deal”
You assume that Silva is going to take a 3 year market deal? Have you not been following ANY hot stove news at all? UNDOUBTEDLY, he’s seeking a 4 year/40 mil. deal. ”
I WAS assuming. Hence the phrase: “I even liked” (past tense). I DO know that Silva wanted/wants to resign with the Twins and I know the rough parameters of what Silva is asking. I also know the ONLY way he is resigned is if the Twins get a discount. Which makes him more valuable on the trade market. HOWEVER since I don’t know that any of this situation is possible, I used the PAST TENSE.
But thanks for the input.
LeCroy’s agent is Boras? That’s hilarious.
Yes he is, and I also found it rather amusing.
Hughes & Bucholz are the two best pitching prospects since Mark Prior & Kerry Woods.. What team in their right mind would even consider trading either one for a mere 2 time Cy Young winner who is an ancient 28 years old. it won’t matter he will end up in the NL.
LeCroy’s agent is Boras?
Is that how we got conned into offering him arbitration and not to Big Papi? I actually like TR, but that has to go down as one of the worst baseball decisions ever made… especially in hindsight.
“Hughes & Bucholz are the two best pitching prospects since Mark Prior & Kerry Woods”
Felix Hernandez and Francisco Lirano.
Sorry, sarcasm dectector is turned off… my bad
“Rogers speculates that the signing of Adam Everett by Minnesota hints that the Twins may be preparing to keep Johan Santana for the upcoming season. Rogers has a valid point, saying that, “Everett’s glove could help win low-scoring games behind Santana and Francisco Liriano.” That is certainly true. But the Twins could have also just signed Everett to help the teams other pitchers (Kevin Slowey, Scott Baker, etc.) transition more easily to the Majors. If anything, this reminds us that the Twins still have the option of keeping Santana and just taking the draft picks when he leaves via free agency next winter. Getting fleeced is not an option for the Twins.”
Oh god (rolling eyes…Rogers discusses us winning low scoring games behind the mound work of Santana and Liriano…two dangerous assumptions exist here.
1.) He assumes our offense WILL NOT be as inept as last year’s offense. AND, it MAY not…but, still dangerous to assume we get anything out of Everett and to a lesser extent, Lamb.
2.) He assumes that Liriano will come back and regain his ‘06 form
MAYBE we finish 82-80, or 81-81. Just my opinion though.
The Twins IMO will move Johan this week & depending on which pitchers they get in trade, they will use money saved to take a chance on a FA or two starting pitcher. If that pitcher will cost them any draft choices they will pass. They will add at least one experienced starter so Gardy can sleep at night. Hunter, Santana, & Nathan contract savings will provide the funds for this.
I see the Twins taking a Yankees deal for Hughes and Jackson as centerpeices… probably 2 more players- probably mid-level prospects (I would guess 1 pitcher and 1 position player)
But I really think the Twins are very low on Melkey (for good reason) and want Kennedy, Jackson and Tabata (in that order) as second and third players in a deal. The Yankees will meet them with a decent offer, the Twins can be at ease because they return a pitcher who was the top prospect in baseball a year ago and a future Hunter-like player in Jackson.
They will then cash in their good communication with the Red Sox by trading a midlevel pitching prospect for Coco Crisp when it becomes apparent that is the market for him.
We go into the season with:
Crisp (CF)
Harris (2B)
Mauer (C)
Cuddy (RF)
Morneau (1B)
Young (LF)
Lamb (3B)
Kubel/Monroe (DH)
Everett (SS)
Hughes/Baker/Liriano/Slowey/Boof in the rotation (Blackburn and Perkins could challange for a spot)
Crain/Guerrier/Rincon/Neshek/Nathan in pen
Punto/Monroe/Kubel/Casilla/Redmond on the bench
Not the greatest offseason in baseball history, but an upgrade. We retool our organization with young talent (Young, Hughes, Jackson, other prospects).
and still put a good product on the astroturf for the next few years…
*cough* Fieldturf *cough*
All this complaining about Everett goes under the assumption that the Twins have to be stacked 1-9.
I remember a shortstop in the not-too-distant past who didn’t have a very strong bat but was the best defensive shortstop I ever saw on that dome turf. I never hear any complaints about him…Gagne was a rock for that left side, despite his low average.
Next stop is CF, either with a Johan trade or some other means.
It would be interesting if they picked up Crisp, or someone of that stature, with a different deal.
Hey Chris,
You worry about Johan having injury problems. How many times has he been on the DL? Zero. How about your boy Phil Hughes?
Who’s more injury prone?
iceman,
atm i would rather have monroe playing center then co co crispy
RyanW, in hindsight, of course not keeping Ortiz was a bad idea.
But without hindsight…did anybody actually miss Ortiz? He was injury prone when he was with the Twins, and it was pretty clear our hitting coaches just flat out missed something that would’ve turned him into “Big Papi” at the Dome.
Are we looking at the same stats on C. Crisp.Sorry…they’re not good enough and certainly not as a leadoff hitter.The Twins would be making a mistake.
Once we trade Santana, let’s look into signing Colon, or Garcia, and we need to put a contract down now on Prior. Say we don’t trade Santana right away… we have Santana, Prior, Liriano, Baker, Slowey/OCB as the rotation. Healthy that is 3 top starters that could win 15-20 games each, and a 4th and 5th starter where one seems to finally be understanding the big leagues, and the other just doesn’t understand how to lose even if he’s nowhere near as good as advertised.
How is Prior a 15 game winner all of a sudden? I pretty sure if he is still that good he would be lined up right next to Carlos Zambrano. Prior has not been good for years and the way his body has held up he is going to fall into the abyss with Ryan Leaf and Marty Cordova.
BC,
I like the second option, if the Twins are serious about signing Santana…and then lets sign Lofton as are CF and put him in the leadoff spot.
If the Twins are going to keep Santana and trade him in the season, I say start Pridie or Span at CF. Unless, they can get Lofton for cheap, do not trade for anyone, it would be a waste.
Prior is 18-17 since 2004, including 1-6 last year.
Sorry, 1-6 in 2006, he didn’t play last year because his body holds up about as well as an eighty year old man.
Seriously there is about a 1% chance of the Twins getting Prior. The Yankees and Mets are both interested so his value just doubled. Add to that the fact that he has already said that he didn’t want to play for the Twins before. Plus he is a huge risk and the Twins generally don’t even take small risks.
He belongs with the Yankees, I hope they give him tons of money and he flops. I like him about as much as Eli Manning and John Elway or anyone else who states, “I will not go to this team” before a draft.
Even if they deal Santana in the AL, Beantown or Gotham, the most they can possibly see him is twice a year unless they get him again in the playoffs.
I keep hearing that Big Papi was unreceptive to the Twins coaching suggestions and only adopted them after getting to Boston.
Isn’t that accurate?
If Santana stays and since Silva’s his buddy…sign Silva. Then we have Santana, Baker, Liriano, Silva and let Bonser and Slowey battle for the last spot. After all the pitching was not the problem last year. The Twins were third in the American League in runs allowed only behind Boston and Cleveland.
Iceman, it sounds like you’ve got half the story.
Ortiz wanted to hit a certain way, and the Twins wouldn’t “let” him. So it’s not that he wouldn’t listen, it’s that they were telling him wrong.
But you are right about the playoffs. The most the Twins see Santana (at worst) is twice.
And as I’ve said before, let’s worry about the Twins GETTING to the playoffs before we worry about who they may face on the mound.
TK didn’t like David Ortiz.Went as far as to say he was a clubhouse cancer.Is that the same guy they now refer to as the lovable ”Big Poppi”.Amazing
What’s with this talk of WANTING to trade Santana? Shouldn’t we be pleading to sign him long-term? I don’t see how a 6-year contract worth 150 million is too much for a guy who isn’t yet 30. Consider how long great pitchers last. Nolan Ryan pitched a no-hitter when he was 40 - Schilling still dominates. Maddux, Glavine - they’re all still kicking and they might be grandparents! It’s not that risky to sign the best pitcher in the league to a long-term contract.
As Twins fans, we should be DEMANDING that the organization pony up the dough to sign Johan until he’s getting on and off the field using a walker.
You all may have seen this by now (can’t read all those posts! ha)… but some Johan news from earlier today.
http://mlbfleecefactor.com/2007/12/23/cafardo-johan-to-be-dealt-after-the-new-year/
