Twins need CF who can bat leadoff
Posted on December 17th, 2007 – 10:26 AMBy Joe Christensen
When ESPN.com’s Jerry Crasnick was writing this piece on the best and worst lineups in baseball last week, he knew things were changing quickly. At the time, he ranked the Twins with the 26th worst lineup in baseball, above only the Pirates, Nationals, Royals and Giants.
I did my own lineup projection recently, but since then, the picture has become more clear. The Twins non-tendered Jason Tyner and signed two Houston Astros — Adam Everett and Mike Lamb — with hopes that they’ll form the left side of the infield.
Clearly, the Twins need to address center field. And you know what? They still need to address the leadoff spot, too, which helps explain why they are so high on Jacoby Ellsbury in their Johan Santana trade talks. Melky Cabrera is a nice player, but I’m not sure he fits this equation quite as well. Here’s their best lineup moving forward:
1. The CF to be named later.
Trade candidates include Ellsbury, Coco Crisp and Cabrera. Free agent candidates include Corey Patterson and Kenny Lofton. In-house candidates include Denard Span and Jason Pridie.
2. Brendan Harris, 2B
Alexi Casilla and Nick Punto are other options for second base, but the Twins sound committed to giving Harris an everyday role because of his bat.
3. Joe Mauer, C
4. Michael Cuddyer, RF
5. Justin Morneau, 1B
6. Delmon Young, LF
7. Jason Kubel/Craig Monroe, DH
Kubel would get the bulk of the at-bats in a platoon since most pitchers are righthanded, and Monroe is a career .273/.319/.495 hitter against lefties.
8. Mike Lamb, 3B
His lefthanded bat makes things a lot more interesting. Punto and Harris are options here if the Twins become despondent about Lamb’s defense.
9. Adam Everett, SS
329 Responses to "Twins need CF who can bat leadoff"
Joe, this is exactly why I keep hoping the Twins will deal with the Sox rather than the Yankees: Ellsbury can lead off and he simply has more upside than Cabrera. This is waht the lineup will probably look like, which isn’t all that bad. It sure looks better than it did three weeks ago.
Sounds about right, but with Gardenhire managing, you know that Punto will be in the lineup at least every other game and probable 2 out of 3.
Also, I still hold out hope the Twins will move Mauer to the #2 hole where he is a better fit. Of course, that would be dependent on Young being able to hold down the #3 hole.
Lamb can be a stop gap at 3B but is not the solution. Smith is giving Gardy a lot of options. None them sure-fire.
Biggest problem still is the lack of major league prospects in our minor league with the exception of pitching. Where’s the beef! Most other teams are finding it but not us. Sad….man.
I just think it’s sad when your DH can’t fill one of the top five spots in your lineup…..
I know the Gardy is a huge advocate fo the Left-Right-Left-Right batting order and the sampling is small (98 plate appearances) but Kubel has a great bat in the number 2 spot: .352/.408/.580
I think it is an option worth exploring…
Somehow, I think this lineup is better than last years, even without Torii. Lamb will have some pop out of the 8 spot and if Young progresses as planned he could really solidfy the middle part of the order. Although I don’t think pitchers are going to be so scared of him (yet) that they’ll groove a fastball to Cuddy because they don’t want to face him. He’s got that potential though. I’d still like to see Mauer in the 2 hole. Ellsbury is my favorite target in the Johan talks and I think with his speed he could make a big difference. If we got Patterson I wouldn’t want him leading off because he strikes out way too much. Lofton is too old. Melky is too slow. Span and Pridie aren’t ready. We should take the Sawx offer. If the fourth player was Bowden in the Ellsbury, Lowrie, Masterson, +1 deal would you guys take it?
I still think everyone is too hopeful on Kubel. Sure, he came around some late last year, but I think he will never be the player everyone projects him to be. I think what we’ve seen is what we’ll get with him.
I think the Twins should do the Red Sox deal.
Kubel reminds me of Cuddyer. He sucked for the first 3 or so years when he was called up. They both were supposed to be impact bats right away. With some guys it just takes time. He seemed to be making strides. I just hope it continues next season.
Patrick, in light of what our needs are, I would take that deal. Our rotation could be shaky this year, but would still have lots of potential with more on the way from the minors. Lowrie would give us even more infield options whil Ellsbury would fill the CF and leadoff needs. The Yankees don’t have a leadoff hitter to give us and I’m just not happy about Melky. Hughes would be a great addition, but Ellsbury fits the need.
I think Kubel “found himself” in the 2nd half last year. If he puts together a full year of something close to that, we’ll all be very happy indeed.
Boneyard,
I agree with everyone thing you said except you don’t make trades like this based on need. You base them on talent. If the Yankees give us more talent and we don’t land a leadoff hitter/center fielder. That’s fine. Always take the talent. It will sort itself out. That being said, I think the Red Sox are offering more talent, but that could change.
Tedge, I know we’ve agreed in the past, and this is beginning to scare me a little, but I agree on Kubel.
I’ve drawn the Kubel/Cuddy comparison for quite a while. I think once he gets consistant AB’s and feels like he has a role on the team, he will improve. He began to show signs last year. He had a massive knee injury, that takes time to come back from.
KB,
What did you think of my last post?
I think this is a better line-up top to bottom than last year as well. I think Ellsbury would be a perfect fit as lead-off, and make it a very good line-up.
The thing that scares me about the BoSox trade is that it will leave us counting on pretty impressive progress from the youngsters on the hill. And I mean to get us to being a .500 team (my goal for next year).
Ellsbury or bust.
Tedge, I agree, and I think I played to that a little with the post I was typing while you made yours.
You take the talent. The BoSox trade, to me, hinges on what Masterson can do, and when he can do it, and on how good they really think that your own young starters are.
Honestly, right now, I’m 50/50 on the Melky/Hughes vs. Ellsbury/Lowrie/Masterson deals. I’d take either one.
I think cumulatively the Sox package has the most talent, but the Yanks are offering the most talented player. It’s a tough call. I’m coming home to Minnesota for Christmas on Thursday night so I hope the deal gets done while I’m there. Although I wouldn’t complain if it happened before then. As a Christmas present I want this saga to be overwith. Let us know who our team will be in 08, Smith!
I think with Bowden and Masterson you have two solid additions to our rotation by 2010. In the mean time, they can be used to shore up our pen, especially if we trade Nathan.
All you fans that want the Twins to trade Johan to the Red Sox are basically alright with the fact that the Twins will not win a World Series for at least 7 years. By that time, your prized Ellsbury will be free to go wherever he wants and that won’t be here if he’s as good as they say. If we trade Johan to either the Yankees or Red Sox, forget about the WS for a while! Who would beat the Red Sox with that pitching lineup? We already know they can hit! And the Yankees are rude from top to bottom as well. Johan would easily win 20+ for either of those lineups. Cripes, he won 15 for us and didn’t get nearly the run support he’ll get in those two destinations. Seems like ya’ll are content with just competing for a playoff spot if you’re OK with us trading with them. Sure we may get better but sheesh, we couldn’t compete with them!
Yikes, I still think there is someone in the NL that will step up, just don’t know who yet…
Tedge, I agree if the talent is clearly better in one package than another. In this case, it is debatable which package is better. Like you, I just like the overall Sox package better.
KB,
I’m torn too. I really like Hughes, more than Elsbury. I think that guy is good. Melky’s fine and it’s not fair to compare him to Ellsbury. If anyone compare him to Lowrie as they are both the second players in the trade. All of this aside, the Red Sox seem to be offering more, better prospects. Say the top two parts of the trades are equal (Ellsbury/Lowrie, Hughes/Melky) the bottom part of the Red Sox deal is far superior to the Yankees. The Sox at least are conceding that more than two good prospects is enough to get a deal done. The Yankees need to get real and pony up if they truly want Johan.
Boneyard is correct. Take talent and the rest will work itself out…i.e. the Vikings drafted Adrian Peterson even though they had Chester. Smart move.
Boneyard,
Good point, the talent is similar and one clearly fits a need better, that leans me toward the Sox deal. It doesn’t hurt to get an extra body, to hedge your bet a little bit, too.
Man, I would like to have Hughes pitching with Liriano, though.
While Kubel’s major league production up to this point in his career hasn’t managed to live up to his prospect expectation - a major knee injury tends to do that to players - his second half numbers in August and September (.364/.438/.509 and .325/.404/.584, respectively) indicates that he has turned a corner. The peripheral stats such as his walk-rate increasing and strikeout-rate decreasing shows that it was not just two lucky months (his BABIP was high) but that he has patience at the plate. This is a guy who missed the entire 2005 season and spent most of his 2006 time trying to regain his swing/batting eye. This to me is a great sign of things to come rather than a fluky season.
Frank the Tank, we won’t win a WS with Johan, either, the way the lineup currently stacks up. Things have a way of changing in a relatively short amount of time. Who says Beckett stays? What happens when Manny (35) and Big Papi (32) start to decline in a few years? A combo like that doesn’t come along every day, no matter how much money you have. The Halos haven’t exactly discovered a complement to Vlad, have they? I’m not saying the Sox are headed for ruin, they have money and a good farm system. However, they may not be as invincible as you think. Besides, the Twins need to worry about getting better. Since they won’t (note I didn’t write “can’t”) sign Santana, Mr. Smith has to figure out how to do that and not worry about the Sox. So far, he’s done all right (despite the Everett signing). Let’s see what else he can do.
Frank The Tank,
The best team doesn’t always win the world series. I know the Sox roster/pitching staff would be impressive if they add Johan. It doesn’t guarantee them the World Series. It probably guarantees the playoffs, which doesn’t matter cuz they aren’t in the central. Once it’s a playoff, anything can happen. If you approach this trade with your attitude, why even try. The Yankees, Red Sox, Tigers, Indians, Angels are all better than the Twins. We should just forfeit when we play those teams. What does it matter if you make one of them better.
Vent over!!!
If the Yanks panic an through in Kennedy……then you’ve got yourself a no-brainer.
I agree with the feelings of having this done this week.
I like AP!
TwinsFanc.1981,
Way to quote BABIP and strike and walk rates. You might truly understand what makes a hitter good. Keep it up. I was born in 1981, too. Yeah you!!!!
im just happy that kubel isnt in the field with this lineup.
sure his bat was good in the second half of last season, but is arm from left field sucks harder than my last girlfriend.
I agree that Kubel will be just fine. And he should hit in the 2 spot. The order should be:
Leadoff CF
Kubel
Mauer
Young (1st month it will be Cuddyer)
Morneau
Cuddyer
Lamb
Harris
Everett
That is a fine lineup that projects to score over 800 runs if the CF is any of Crisp/Ellsbury/Lofton.
At this point I still want Johan signed, meaning a deal for Crisp, or signing Lofton, but otherwise, I agree Ellsbury is the guy to get. He is basically Jose Reyes offensively with a little less speed (ie steals).
JDW -
That isn’t any sort of valid comment.
Yeah, Gardy could start Punto instead of Lamb. He could also eat a bad egg salad sandwhich and miss the first few games of the season.
Instead of using this as an opportunity to rip on Gardy for something you don’t even know he’ll do (and is likely what he won’t do), let’s look at what’s in front of us and make assessments.
I’m getting tired of people writing off any sort of positive comment as “Well yeah that could be good, but “
That should be “but -insert absurd extreme example here-”
I do agree that we need to trade him but don’t think adding to an already formidable pitching staff, along with the hitting they have (both teams) makes any sense to a team whose goal is to win the world series. I’ve said it before, I want the Twins to re-sign him. I don’t buy into the small market crap. We have a small budget owner. I’m going there anymore, it is what it is but if I was running this team, I’d at least do whatever I could to trade him to the NL so I would only have to face him potentially in the WS, if his team made it. You can guarantee that the RS and Yanks will make the playoffs, and adding Santana will assure that to either team. We can’t beat either now in a 7 game series, let alone after adding the best pitcher in baseball to their staff.
Get mad at my opinion if you want, but I want the Twins to actually compete this year for the WS, not just win our division and get bounced in the Divisionals…
Most Twins fans have resigned to the fact that we can’t win anyway so trade him to make us better. But there’s no way we get enough to be better than those teams…it’s what they call a catch 22.
I agree with Hawk that Lamb and Everett will fill out the lineup well enough while the young guys get experience and Smith waits for better FA or trade options.
The 3B/SS crop was pretty thin this offseason, and the Twins farm system has a few guys that are not quite ready. Give it a year and this lineup could be slightly different, but still improved.
And yeah, a Johan/Nathan trade could essentially turn that lineup on its head (what if they bring in a new young 3B,SS or CF?)
I get the feeling that Smith isn’t as crazy about LNP as his predecessor/manager. Based on the deals he’s made recently, it looks like a seriously uphill battle for Punto this spring training. I hope I’m right.
Frank The Tank,
I agree with you…especially with the Red Sox. They had the lowest runs allowed in the league last year.
If we take the FA route to fill are CF, take the veteran Lofton. Corey Pattersons stats are not good enough…pass.
we should still do reyes martinez and prospect for santana… seriously it would fill the number one hole and we could have a power bat in center instead of a speedy guy… (ellsbury) then we could probably use everett as a bench player. we could use a stopgap power center fielder till matinez is ready.. hes supposed to be like amazing…. (power AND speed)
i bet santana wants to go to the NL and throw a sub-2.00 era too
Tank, I hear what you’re saying, and I would actually agree if were talking about trading Santana within the division. But we’re not. We have to get to the playoffs before we can worry about who we might play in the playoffs. No other team has made an offer, nor is any other time likely to make an offer remotely comparable to the ones made by the Yanks and Sox. The Dodgers aren’t in the mix. The Halos don’t seem to be, either. The M’s could be, and I like Jones and Morrow, but they actually have to put those guys on the block. We’ve gotta get some horses in return.
1981 represent!
Frank the Tank- By 2010 (the year this potential trade is really meant to improve) you’re looking at an aging, overpaid bunch of players on the Yanks and on the Sawx. They both have solid farm systems (w/the Sawx being better) but if we make the trade to one of these teams we’ll deplete that very same system. In 3 years, Manny will be 38 and he’ll be on the last year of his contract. For $20 million. Ortiz will be 35. Mike Lowell will be 47. Ok, he’ll be 36 but he’ll LOOK 47. Schilling will be gone. Who knows if Paps arm will hold up for 3 years. The Yankees just signed multiple guys who are too old to foolishly long contracts. Posada will be 38, Rivera 39. The point is, you never know where a team will be in two or three years. Not to mention that if we keep Johan, we’ll get nothing in return and he’ll sign with one of these teams after 08 anyway. We need to get something back and worry about this team’s competetive level, not another team’s.
I know Santana likes the prospect of getting to hit, but that would only have him lean towards an NL team if two different teams were inquiring.
Frank the Tank,
Your comment did not make me angry. I just disagree. Vent may have been too strong of a word. Alternating view points, lead to good discussion. Keep it up.
P.S. Replace the word no with slim (as in slim chance) and I would agree with you. There’s always a chance. You can’t worry about the other teams when you try and make yours better.
and since he was a outfielder converted to a pitcher he may be able to hit .250-.300 too and accually be a decent hitter.
Besides, what NL team is in the mix to get Johan. The Mets. The Twins can’t make that trade because they don’t have enough good young players (save Wright and Reyes). If an NL team offers an equal trade, do it. But so far that is not the case.
T,
ya but there are 2 teams for the mets to be competitive…… YANKEES AND METS!
Patrick, I vehemntly disagree! I’m kidding, of course, since you posted my exact thoughts. Spooky.
we have no need to do this trade though untill the time is right… bill smith got the players we needed and said to everyone basically.. “look, i dont NEED to trade santana anymore and can easily sign him if you guys dont want to give enough. we can easily compete the following years how it is. if you give us what we want though we will trade him otherwise dont even bother”
The stories coming out of the Red Sox nation says the chances of them getting Santana are less than 50-50. Red Sox “want” Santana. Yankees are trying to hide it but they “need” Santana. Yanks have a #2 & #3 starter in Wang and Petitte but no dominate #1. Hankee might be trying to change trading young talent for proven talent but his daddy it’s paying $150mil in payroll to see them “re-build”!!
liondragon-Why not just replace Martinez with Beltran? That way we won’t have to wait for Martinez to develop. Beltran/Reyes for Santana. Maybe they’ll throw in Wright too.
Omar won’t trade Reyes or else I’d agree with you that’s the deal we should make.
1981 rules!
patrick,
ya but we can wait to trade santana now… we are in no rush anymore.. maybe the mets will say they cant wait anymore and put reyes in it……..
1981? Oh, man, you young guys. I think I was 112 in 1981. Sigh.
I’m guessing that after Bedard goes off the market, the Yanks will pony up with Hughes, Cabrera, plus. They will have no choice unless they like 15 to 12 run games.
Forget Hughes, I want Cano. Which will never happen.
I guess I have to beat this dead horse but why is Mauer always projected in the #3 spot? He is a prototypical #2 hitter, why can’t the Twins see this? The reason people have been complaining so much about Mauer is because he lacks power. If you put him in the #2 spot it lowers expectations a little and it fits more of what he does well.(i.e. bat control and high OBP)
1981 isn’t that good.
I agree, jama. Mauer is a #2. Who hits third, though? With Gardy, it will have to be a righty. Young or Cuddyer?
interesting hank says yanks are back in. doesn’t that seem to say they will sweeten their offer? if they won’t why not say we’ve made our best offer take it or leave it.
why can’t mauer lead off? he would only bat first once most of the time. after the first inning the lead off hitter could be anyone.
lineup should be….
ellsbury (if we get him)
mauer
young
cuddy
morneau
kubel
lamb
harris
everett
im sorry but lamb is NOT a number 8 hitter. so dont even say that… thats like saying mauer should bat 9th…
Boneyard
I think I would start the season with Cuddyer batting 3 but I think Young is the answer long term. I think once the Twins work with him on his strike zone and he starts to take some more walks he would be your ideal #3 hitter. I would start the season with:
CF
Mauer
Cuddy
Morneau
Young
Kubel
Lamb
Harris
Everett
1982 was pretty good too. Kirby was drafted that year.
the lineup would also fit bill smiths saying.. he said that he wanted more lefties cause lefties have an advantage at the new park…
L,L,R,R,L,L,L,R,R
thats if they do my lineup.. not bad
5 lefties 4 righties..
lion
Fine swich Lamb and Kubel then if it makes you feel better.
Gardy would split up the righties and lefties more. It would be more like:
CF
Mauer
Cuddyer
Morneau
Young
Kubel
Harris
Lamb
Everett
jama… why are you putting young at 5th? your putting morneau at 4th? you got to be kidding me.. your changing morneau from being the power spot to the cleanup spot. never will happen.. you mine as well say that next year david wright for the mets will bat 8th instead of 3rd. LOL
lion
The point of having a mix of Lefties and Righties is that the other team can’t throw a reliever in there for several hitters. Your lineup doesn’t make any sense. You don’t bat all your lefties and then all your righties you have to alternate them somewhat. I don’t think it has to be RLRLRLRLR but it is generally beneficial to alternate a couple of them.
T-
Just because u dont agree w/my comment doesnt change the validity of it. Gardenhire has shown throughout last season that LNP is his guy on a daily basis. Granted we have more viable options for 2008 but I believe LNP will be in starting lineup 80 games min. I hope i am wrong. Anyone else agree or disagree?
ok jama,
then do this..
ellsbury
harris
mauer
cuddy
morneau
young
kubel
lamb
everett
only problem there is now you have lamb batting 8th which is a big upgrade for our number 8 but hes not a number 8 hitter hes a number 7 or 6…..
that lineup would be L,R,L,R,L,R,L,L,R
so there you go if thats what you want… but lamb really shouldnt bat 8th
JDW,
Definitely, with Lamb’s defensive liabilities
JDW- Unfortunately, I have to say that I’m worried about it too. I’m not going to start bashing Gardy before he does it, but I am definitely worried that he’s going to start Punto for no good reason. I guess we’ll just have to wait and see.
lion
Please explain why Morneau shouldn’t bat clean up. I don’t understand why that is such a no-no in your book. Thanks
JDW - I think BS’s moves this offseason give Gardy a base of talent for the roster that could put Punto on the bench. If Harris or Lamb can’t produce adequate defense at 3B and 2B, then Punto is an option. But with Everett at SS, there is just no way Gardy can comfortably slot Punto and his bat into the starting lineup. Of course, horrid defense by Lamb or Harris, or injury could slot Punto there.
lion- What exactly is the difference between a #8 hitter and a #7 hitter? It all depends on the lineup the guy is in. If Lamb were on a team like the Yankees, he’d be batting 8th or 9th. If he were on a team like the Giants, he might be the cleanup hitter.
jama,
because morneau hits 30-35 homers with 110-120 rbis a year.. cuddy is ment for the cleanup spot and does very well there….. young atm does not have the power to play 5th and cuddy is not going from cleanup spot to 8th…. there is no way that would EVER happen
Lion
Why can’t Morneau hit 30-35 HR’s with 110-120 RBI’s batting 4th? You really didn’t give much of an answer. I think Cuddy should bat 3rd not 8th and if Kubel batted 5th some last year why can’t Young bat 5th?
In regards to lineup, if the Twins trade for Ellsbury they could have guys in the 1-8 spots who can hit double digits in homeruns. I think that will be more exciting than waiting for our 3-5 hitters to come up to bat every three innings like we have the past few years.
And a thought I had completely out of left field and a new rumor to start: what if the Twins ask for Tim Wakefield as part of a deal? He was 17-12 last year, only made $4 million, would be a veteran in the lineup and hold a spot until some of the younger guys are ready, and with the Red Sox having a rotation of Santana, Beckett, Matsuzaka, Schilling, and Bucholtz/Lester he would be the odd man out. Would that be better than a fourth prospect from Boston?
mike d,
the difference between 7th and 8th is with a team like ours.. the number 9 hitter wont be good enough to score lamb in enough.. if lamb is hitting behind kubel though….. and then put harris 8th… harris is ment for 8th in out lineup.. lamb does not want to get 50 runs batting 8th.. he wants to get 3 run homers batting 7th.. if he was with the tigers last year with inge batting 9th.. ya i would put lamb 8th because there hitting is good enough to have a good number 7… same with yankees…. and with inge batting 9th they would be able to bat lamb in instead of lamb only scoring in 50 runs….
For all the bashing Gardenhire gets, I think people need to go back and look at the options he had to replace Punto. LRod, Buscher, Cirillo…? It’s not like any of those guys struck fear in to pitchers, either. Until he proves otherwise (which I suppose he might), I’m going to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that with the guys Smith has assembled (and barring injuries), Punto would have to actually hit the ball with some consistency in order to have more than a utility/late inning defensive replacement role in 2008.
Kraig
I’m not sure Ellsbury is projected to hit double digit HR’s. I would be shocked if he hit 10 next year. The 2-8 hitters could definitely reach those numbers pretty easily though.
kubel should not have ever been a number 5 hitter … atleast as of last year.. also.. morneau wont get as many rbis at 4th because of the difference of bats.. he has mauer and cuddy getting on base… normally someone will be on second.. if hes batting cleanup. he would have someone on first normally..
JC: I think the main issue people have with Gardy’s questionable lineup-card creating was his steadfast ability to play “veterans” over “kids” late in the season. Also, how many bunts did Punto foul up last year? For a veteran, he wasn’t really playing like it.
But, I know what you’re saying…our bench was atrocious.
the way you guys are talking though.. i bet they will just go put punto 5th.. there you go! put morneau 4th and have punto hitting the big homer every 1/80 games. that would make gardy really happy! putting his best friend at the most important position!
lion
Mauer and Cuddyer would still be hitting in front of Morneau so please give me a good reason he shouldn’t bat cleanup. Where do most teams put their best power hitter? The answer is 4th. They call it the clean up spot because they clean up the runners on base. I still don’t see how batting him 5th would improve his numbers.
I based Ellsbury’s numbers on last season. In 33 games/116 AB’s he hit 3 home runs. Multiply that by four and you get 132 games/464 ABs(both low estimates for a starting CF/leadoff man) and 12 HR’s. Even if he doesn’t hit 10 homeruns he also stole 9 bases which projects to over 40 for a season. He’d be pretty exciting to add to the lineup either way.
Punto had arguably one of the worst offensive seasons as a 3B in the last 40 years. I forgot to mention, when discussing his inability to put down bunts, his year-long flirtation with the Mendoza line.
Todd Anthony- That’s what I’m thinking when I get worried about Gardy making the lineup. He continually played Punto and even Rodriguez over Buscher and Casilla near the end of last season. Neither Punto nor Rodriguez had played nearly well enough to earn a spot, but Gardy kept putting them in the lineup even though the team was clearly out of the playoff hunt. I know they both struggled (Casilla especially), but when you’re out of the playoff chase, the young guys should be playing everday (especially when the veterans you’re playing are Nick Punto and Luis Rodriguez).
JDW - Your analysis of the 07 season doesn’t take into account a number of things.
1) Gardy had no viable 3B candidate other than Punto until Buscher was called up. He can suggest that he needs a new guy at 3rd, but until he’s given one by the Front Office there’s nothing he can do.
2) Buscher came up, played, got hurt. Watkins came in to replace him, got hurt. Again, who does Gardy put out there instead?
3) Punto’s other time playing was at 2nd once Castillo was traded. Casilla was showing signs that he couldn’t get his head into the big game. Provided this could’ve been solved with more chances to play.
Out of those 3, only ONE (#3) is a valid complaint. We had Casilla, but he played Punto. Otherwise for pretty much the first half of the season Gardy had nobody else to play 3rd. NOBODY.
The only thing I’ll give you is that Gardy should’ve been playing Casilla and Buscher more (once Buscher was healthy). But by then it was already September. So it was like a MONTH of Punto in the lineup when Gardy had other options.
But until somebody can tell me what Gardy could’ve done for the first four months of the season (when TR didn’t call up anybody else or trade for anybody else), I will not consider any “Gardy will play Punto 80 times a year in 08″ a valid argument.
Gardy played Punto as much as he did early in the season because there was no replacement available.
Kraig- Looking at his minor league stats, which is a much larger sample size, shows that he hit 10 homers in 1017 at bats. He doesn’t have much home run power. However, his minor league stats do back up his speed; he had 105 stolen bases in 250 games.
T- I agree with you about the first part of the season. Punto was supposed to be the starting third baseman because he had hit so well (for him) during 2006, so the team did not bring in any other guys to play there (Cirillo wasn’t exactly 100% healthy). BUT, that last month of the season showed that Gardy likes to play Punto, and that makes some people (like me) worry about what he’s going to do next year.
Punto better not be in the lineup opening day now that we’ve picked up three infielders this offseason.
I read via the Pro Sports Daily website that now the Yankees have pulled Hughes off the table in a potential trade for Santana?
Mike D-I didn’t know that, what was his batting average? If his “power” that he showed last year was more of a fluke that concerns me a little(a very little bit) about whether we are getting a franchise player or someone who is coming off the biggest hot streak of his life.
Punto will not make the starting lineup, unless it’s to give our starting SS a day off.
Here are his minor league stats:
http://minors.baseball-reference.com/players.cgi?pid=4378
He has a .314/.390/426 career minor league line. His strikeout to walk ratio is nearly even (127:111). He definitely has skills, even if power is not one of them.
Mike D. Can you provide me the numbers on ow many stars Punto made at each position in September?
I’d be interested in seeing if it was truly as “horrid” as some people’s memories seem to suggest.
But again, it was a month. Gardy will not play Punto when Smith went out and spent around 6 million to give him a star defensive SS and a respectable 3B. Punto’s best chance at ever making a start is to spell Harris (because Smith was not going to deal Garza and Bartlett if he wasn’t going to start at least half the guys he got back)
Again, we’re jumping down Gardy’s throats for something he hasn’t done yet. Can we stop expecting the worst and just look at what we’ve got before us?
Seriously…Yankees fans…
If that’s true TA, they will not be getting Santana.
His value’s gone up now that Haren and a few free agents have been locked down by other teams.
Kraig
Ellsbury is a guy the Twins would definitely be buying high on. He has great speed and projects to steal at least 40 bases but you are correct to be a little concerned. He is not the “stud” that the media has made him out to be.
T- I’m not expecting Gardy to start Punto, nor am I jumping down his throat. I’m expecting Gardy to start Harris, Everett, and Lamb, but in the back of my mind I am worried about the possibility of him starting Punto. And I’ll look up Punto’s starts over the last month.
Ellsbury had the double bonus of playing well in the postseason for a high profile team.
Strike three is Boras is his agent. I know I say it alot, but a guy who’s already overvalued by the media is going to be especially overvalued when he gets in that guy’s hands.
T: I think what further compounded the collective anger at Gardy was his proclamation that Punto was the leading contender for the 2B job in ‘08, this on the heels of the monumentally loathsome year (for Punto especially).
I found it ironic as well that Casilla, according to Gardy, purportedly did not have his head in the game. That very well may be true. But it’s not like Punto was clearly outplaying Casilla, particularly when he couldn’t lay down a bunt to save his life.
i think i just threw up in my mouth
Mike D. Punto will get starts. Nobody is doubting that. But it’s the fact that people think that (barring injury at a position) Punto is somehow going to get 80 starts in the season.
It’s not going to happen. It’s going to take one of the three current starters (Everett, Lamb, Harris) going down for Punto to get regular start time. And even then it may be tough because there will be pressure to use Casilla and Buscher (since Punto is in a contract year) *knocks wood*
As a team with players like Johan and Nathan
i hope Mr Smith makes Da*n sure that our starting lineup does not resemble whats posted by Joe C.
i understand the lineup if johan and nathan are still with the twins.
but if johan is gone.. so should be nathan. and the lineup should benefit
Thanks for letting us know MH. Care to actually participate in a baseball discussion while you’re here?
ok jama,
so you want this lineup then?
ellsbury
mauer
young
morneau
kubel
cuddy
lamb
harris
everett?
you know thats a good upgrade from the number 4 spot considering i remember cuddy striking out a lot in a big situation swinging at a ball 5 feet away to the right of home plate… but then you have to put cuddy at 6th cause he stikes out too much to do the number 3.. the problem now is you have to hope young is able to not strike out 130 times.. if you put kubel then at 2nd spot and mauer at 3rd spot you would have 3 lefties at start of rotaion and you didnt like that… now everything is messed up…
I’ve conflicted over the Johan situation. On one hand, Haren IS off the table, and it is virtually guaranteed that the Orioles will not trade Bedard to the Yankees or Red Sox. But, the Haren trade DID set the “proverbial” market for starting pitching. Granted Haren isn’t as dominant as Santana, but he 1.) has a nice contract, and 2.) is not on the cusp of free agency and subsequently, a 6-7 year, 20 mil. contract.
I just wonder if the negative press the Yankees have received as a result of the Mitchell report could possibly sway them to make a deal like this. With Hammerin’ Hank, you never know. He seems as petulant as his father.
If Hughes is off the table, then we HAVE to take the Red Sox’ offer (Ellsbury, et al.).
Oh, nevermind. I see you did. I retract my previous comment. However, I will add that it should be clear that this is the lineup as projected with the current roster.
It wouldn’t be wise to plan a lineup with guys that aren’t available yet. Or else I’d go ahead and pencil A-Rod and Ortiz 
T
great point..
Punto is in a contract year..
soo perhaps Nick the Stick gets it rolling?!?! wishful thinking.. cuz rolling for punto is a .300 average with 2 hr’s..
I hope Nick the Stick lives up to his nickname
Punto started 21 out of 28 games in September, while Casilla got 12 starts and Buscher got 14.
T.. dont worry
im way ahead of ya in regards to talking baseball!haha..
When i said I think i threw up in my mouth..
its a line from a movie..
just a little comedy..
sorry if it affended anyone!
“When i said I think i threw up in my mouth..
its a line from a movie..”
Dodgeball, I believe?
If Hughes is off the table, it’s gotta be the Sox. It doesn’t appear anyone else is going to get in the game. Here’s a question, though. Without Hughes in the Yankees’s offer, do the Sox pull someone out of their offer?
No hard feelings, MH. I shouldn’t have been so quick to react. It’s just those types of comments are so commen these days when talking Twins lineups that I was hoping to get something actually talking it out.
And I know the movie, or at least one of the movies.
As I was writing my second post, I realized that Punto was in a contract year. Which got me laughing thinking of him putting up some career numbers. Which would benefit the team two ways.
1) Bonus production from a guy not expected to do much.
2) Increase the liklihood of some other team wanting him during a playoff push.
3) He’ll price himself out of our market (or at least give us an excuse not to sign him)
4) We’ve got Everett on a one year contract, so hopefully he’ll also have a contract year.
you know why dont we just get cano and hughes and put cano 2nd mauer 3rd morneau 4th kubel 5th young 6th cuddy 7th lamb 8th
everett 9th? and get a leadoff center fielder.
Although now that I think about it, the Twins should just sign everybody to one year contracts.
Contract years EVERY year!
The problem with getting Cano is that the Yankees have to offer Cano.
Best I can tell, that hasn’t happened.
Gardy also decided to give Luis Rodriguez 13 starts in September, even though he had only started 24 games all year previously. I think there’s reason to be worried about the lineup, but like I said that doesn’t mean I’m expecting Gardy to screw it up.
PS: You’ll know if the Yankees have offered Cano, as you’ll see him in a Twins jersey before the story even breaks that Hank OKed it.
just do hughes and cano for santana its perfect!
Also, it is a line that has been used on this very blog by our very own TA with great effect. Although somewhat random, it didn’t offend me.
The Twins weren’t going anywhere, Mike D. Tyner, Ford, and Rodriquez were all approaching the end of their contracts/servitude.
I’m guessing there was some pressure on Gardy to give htem play time so the team could assess if they’d be worth keeping in a bench role in the future.
We can all see how that turned out this offseason.
TA
haha.. yea.. i think that is the movie..
but seriously…
that lineup will be the lineup if we still have Johan and Nathan
but if Johan and Nathan are traded..
we have to fill some voids.
I gotta believe that Nathan and Johan could give us a CF, a starting SS and atleast a 3rd baseman..
johan to the yanks for matsui/hughes/a 3rd prospect.. since we have to take on matsui contract..
then flip matsui to the giants for a pitcher… or, better yet… trade cuddy/prospect for lincecum (someone mentioned yesturday that lincecum was off the table, but i dont know that for sure)
then flip nathan for Pie
Pie
harris
mauer
young
morneau
matsui
kubel/young
lamb
punto/casilla
liriano/lincecum/hughes/slowey/baker
you could trade cuddy/boof to the giants
One more time, lion, the Yankess have to actually make an offer of Hughes and Cano before the Twins can accept it. I’m pretty sure Mr. Smith asked for a similar package, but was told to go pound sand.
I agree that the Twins weren’t going anywhere, but I guess we have different opinions on what they should do at that point. I think they should have been playing Buscher and Casilla every day to see what they have in those two players instead of playing Rodriguez and Punto who had never shown much ability in the minors or the majors.
how about a 3 way trade???
yankees:give cano hughes joba
mets: give reyes, martinez
twins:santana,punto, rincon
yankees get: martinez rincon santana
twins get: reyes hughes cano
mets get: joba punto
thoughts?
and dont make a mean comment it just was somthing out of my mind if its not realalistic thats fine. just a thought
I’ve heard “rumblings” that the Yankees are attempting to trade Matsui in an attempt to clear payroll for Santana. Now, take that how you will. We’ve heard so much hyperbole and innuendo the past weeks that I don’t know what to believe anymore.
Alright.. on another note..
i realize some of my trade scenarios are absurd..
but i live life with my Twins GM hat on..
and if mr Smith would just listen to me, and if polad would let me spend his money..
i like to think i would have won a WS by now!
The Giants wouldn’t give up Lincecum or Cain for Alex Rios. There’s no way they would give either one up for Cuddyer and Boof, especially after they signed Rowand.
LionDragon
i think the Mets would be giving up to much, the twins would be getting to much, and the yanks would be somewhere in the middle
hahaha.. honestly.. thats how i feel
liondragon, that is an incredibly lopsided trade in favor of the Twins.
And Matsui may help the Twins lineup. But he’s a defensive liability, we’ve already got four corner outfielders, and his contract is massive. Not to mention that he would have to waive his NTC to go to Minnesota (which I doubt he would).
Mike D.
thanks, atleast i know someone reads my post..
and i agree with you.. i’m not sure if they would give up them players either..
plus, would they ever really want to trade with the twins again???
perhaps nathan/cuddy to the giants for
Lincecum/Lewis??
Lion
I already posted what I think the lineup should be. Here it is again.
CF
Mauer
Cuddy
Morneau
Young
Kubel
Lamb
Harris
Everett
As I stated I would start with Cuddy #3 until Young proved that he has improved his strike zone. This is basically the same top of the lineup as last year with everyone moved up one spot to have Mauer bat #2. I still don’t see what is wrong with this lineup.
BTW how do we know Hughes is off the table? If its only from Sid Hartmann’s column, I dont buy it.
But if Hughes IS off the table and the yanks ARE serious about pursuing Santana, then they have to replace him with another centerpiece player. Who else would there be?
I should add that LD is on the right track in that a 3-way swing may be the way to go. Perhaps help the Yankees find a partner to take Matsui so they can accept Santana.
The best lineup is clearly:
Ellsbury or other CF
Kubel
Mauer
Young
Morneau
Cuddyer (he will bat 4th to start, then switch)
Lamb
Harris
Everett
That means our best 3 OBP guys are at the top. Kubel hits very well from the 2 slot.
I would almost be willing to bet that they start talking up Nicky as a center fielder.
Wouldn’t Mauer be better ahead of Kubel? He’s already a dangerous hitter, and Kubel will become a power threat (more so than Mauer). You’d think the odds of them grooving one to Mauer would go up if they are worried about Kubel’s pop behind him.
Put Morneau 4th, Cuddy and Young in some order behind him and the rest of the linupe doesn’t look too bad.
The best option to lead off would be Reyes.A package of Reyes,Gomez and or Martinez,Humber and or Pelfrey for Johan could be doable.Throw in Everett to play SS.The Mets have enough hitters to afford to play Everett at SS.Doesn’t address our needs in CF,but it gives US enough trading parts to maybe make another trade for a CF
I should add that by “dagnerous” I mean OBP wise. They can’t exactly fool Mauer since he’s got a decent eye at the plate. So they’re going to have to put one where he can make contact and that’ll usually turn into a hit.
This blog pretty much states that it’s either Ellsbury, or that they are looking at Kenny Lofton
Cabrera couldn’t bat LEAD, Coco has no on base percentage, Pirdie isn’t ready, and Span has no talent.
Wait, nevermind my lineup. I just stacked three lefties in the heart of hte order. Bad idea, I’ll slap my own wrist.
*ouch*
All these lineups are making my head spin. I just like that there is argument over who should be batting 8th because other than Everett there are no clear cut bad hitters out there. The fact taht with many of these lineups the 4-8 guys could all jack out 15-20 HR’s is so nice to see as a Twins fan (Kubel, Cuddy, Lamb, Young, Harris, Morneau). Hell, even Mauer has that ability even though we haven’t seen it yet.
I just see Ellsbury as the missing link to making this offense great no matter how they order everyone after that.
Just a question. What’s the point of all of the lineup projections. They are all similar .
BC, I agree.
It’s going to be one or the other in all likelihood.
I love Ellsbury, but I’m still in the “sign Santana” camp and would love to just sign Lofton and compete for a title.
I know I’m splitting hairs, but what makes you decide on 7-8 in the line up?
Lamb has a decent lifetime onbase percentage, and arguably more power than Kubel.
Anything new on the Santana, or Nathan front?
And what do you make of Gardy saying he doesn’t like Neshak as a closer?
Yankees could be waiting for the Twinks to blow it and not trade Santana…then they could sign him as a FA without trading any young talent.
LaVelle was on KFAN today. Did anyone listen?
Dustin even with Lofton does this make us a playoff team>
Lofton
Harris
Mauer
Cuddyer
Morneau
Young
Kubel/Monroe
Lamb
Everett
Santana, Liriano, Baker, Slowey OCB?
CF
Mauer
Cuddyer
Kubel LF/DH
Morneau
Young LF/DH
Lamb
Harris
Everett
Crazy to bat Kubel clean-up?
“LaVelle was on KFAN today. Did anyone listen? ”
Yeah, I did…he didn’t have anything too profound to say. Mostly, he was discussing his affinity for the Chicago Bears 
BC,
There’s always ifs with a small market team. The biggest ones with that lineup are does Lofton sharply decline this year from age, Does Liriano return to his old form and stay healthy, does Boof lose some weight and play like he did in 06?
Yah, I say that lineup definitely gives the Twins a good chance to compete next year.
“I love Ellsbury, but I’m still in the “sign Santana” camp and would love to just sign Lofton and compete for a title. ”
We are NOT contending for a title…
How about Santana for Pelfrey, Mulvey, Guerra, Gomez and Martinez with the Mets?
At least one of the CF’s (Gomez/Martinez)should do the job and the other one goes to minors.
I think the Mets do have enough young talent to deal.
BC…you hit the bunny on the nose with the CF comments.
I think if we deal Johan to the Sox in the Ellsbury deal our lineup would at least be a top 10 lineup
CF Jacoby Ellsbury
C Joe Mauer
LF Delmon Young
1B Justin Morneau
RF Mike Cuddyer
DH Jason Kubel
3B Mike Lamb/Brandon Harris
2B Brandon Harris/Jed Lowrie
SS Adam Everett
and I wouldn’t be suprised to see Trevor Plouffe take the SS away from Everett this year after the team gets frustrated with Everett’s hitting. Jed Lowrie also figures into the equation if we trade the Red Sox Santana possibly making Mike Lamb be a bench player yet again. Now if we can just convince the Dodgers to trade us Andy Laroche for Nathan or the Rangers to trade us Hank Blalock who is affordable(Nathan is originally from Tex so he may like the move). I would have also speculated the Rockies would be interested in Nathan but with the Vizcaino signing it might mean they aren’t going to need a closer.
If you would have told me the Twins would add Ellsbury and Delmon Young this offseason I wouldn’t believe it. These are two great players with huge years ahead of them. I, like someone else above, compare Ellsbury to a Jose Reyes type player and I expect him to be a huge addition if the Twins get him.
Kenny Lofton doesn’t seem like a guy that would want to play for the Twins. Can’t see it. Corey Patterson, maybe. Or else it’s a trade or Pridie/Span. Yikes.
Sane,
I don’t think the Mets would give up that many players. Seems excessive. I would take that trade. Good mix of quantity and quality. Kind of like the Haren trade.
Slerveball how about this.
Ellsbury
Harris
Mauer
Cuddyer
Morneau
Young
Kubel/Monroe
Lamb
Everett
(with a AAA infield of Busher, Lowrie, Casilla, and Jones) waiting in the wings if someone gets hurt)
and a rotation of
Colon/Garcia, Liriano, Baker, Fogg, Ole Chubby Boof/Slowey
Maybe we could trade Nathan and Bonser to the cubs for Pie and Sean Gallagher?
Sane
Without Reyes the Mets are dead in the trade offer. If the Twins are going to play hardball with teams like the Yankees and Red Sox do you think they care when they say we want Reyes and Gomez in any deal with the Mets?
We are playing with the A league now, and if the B teams want to get in they are going to have to play the same game if not a tougher game than the Yankees or Red Sox.
That’s the problem TA, we as Twins fans are content with not competing for a title. Are we supposed to be content with 3rd place as long as the boys put on a good show. No thanks. I’d like MN fans to demand a higher standard. Right now, I’m not even that worried about the RS or NY because we are going to have our hands full with Detroilet and Cleveland. Detroit’s lineup is sick with the addition of Miggy.
That’s why I can’t believe we are willing to give up a hall of fame pitcher for prospects. The only way now to win our division is pitching and everyone is dead set on getting rid of it (Garza and Johan and Silva).
I think we are in shambles here. I’d actually consider signing Silva at this point cuz we ain’t got much without Johan…
I’m coming in late here but what would these line-ups look like with Bonds in the middle? Outstanding! He isn’t getting any other offers so we should throw a $5M offer at him and have it contingent on appearing in so many games so if he does go to trial/jail, we’re covered. That guy can still hit 40-50 bombs and he’s on base nearly half of the time.
Get Mike off this board! Bonds! What?
Kubel, what? He’s garbage. A DH should be one of your best hitters, not average.
BC, yes, I think that would make us a playoff team. That lineup projects to score 820 runs with a step up from Young (I think likely). That’s a 100 run improvement over last year.
Couple that with BETTER defense, better pitching (Liriano is better than Garza, and Silva is easily replaced), and probably a better bullpen (Perkins/Crain back) and yes, I think that’s a playoff team, maybe even winning the Central.
If we’re gonna do this lets do this. I’m putting my lineup out here. Not the one that Gardy is gonna use, but the one I would use if I were manager. I will not include players that are not on are team right now.
1. Mauer C
2. Harris 2B
3. Young LF
4. Morneau 1B
5. Cuddyer RF
6. Kubel DH
7. Lamb 3B
8. Pridie CF
9. Everett SS
Bench:
Redmond, Casilla, Punto, Monroe, McDonald/G. Jones.
Pitchers:
1. Santana
2. Liriano
3. Baker
4. Slowey
5. Boof
Bullpen:
Nathan, Rincon, Neshek, Guerrier, Crain/DePaula, Reyes, Perkins.
As I wrote this. I just realized that we still have an awesome bullpen.
The Mets won’t package Gomez and Martinez together. It’s one or the other. These lineups are irrelevent but:
Ellsbury*
Mauer
Young
Morneau
Cuddyer
Kubel
Harris
Lamb
Everett
As jama has said, Young batting third is dependent on him showing he can take a pitch. If he can improve his patience just a little bit he’ll be a force out of the 3 hole. If we do the Sawx trade our rotation is:
Liriano
Baker
Boof
Slowey
Masterson?
Decent… but young. I don’t remember who but someone made an interesting point. If the Yankees really have taken Hughes off the table (can we have link for that BTW, whoever posted it) would the Sawx then take someone out of their offer?
Plus who cares about character in this town. Dwight “Reefer” Smith willbe playing tonight and if he helps the team win, fans will be happy. Same with Bonds. All I’m saying is he’s the best hitter on the market and we all want better offense. Plus he’s probably going to be as cheap as any other stiff we get going forward. Worth the risk.
BC,
I think the Mets deal I suggested is better than what the RS and Yanks have offered so far. (especially if Hughes is off the table)
Frank the Tank,
We have won the division 4 of the last 6 years. I think we have proven ourselves to be competitive. It’s hard to pay one guy 1/4 of your payroll. I know Johan is great, but it’s not the most efficient way to build a good team. Go look and see how many teams have won the world series with one player taking up that much of the payroll. The only one that I know of is Pujols. I think Billy Smith realizes this and is trying to be competitive.
How’s this for a dream? Everett was only added because the Mets required a replacement for Reyes in the Santana trade.
Smoking weed doesn’t make you a bad person, Mike. Besides “all the virtue has to be defended”!!!
Bonds would not accept 5 million dollars a year. He’s too vain.
Mike, I want Bonds here too, but it won’t happen.
Frank the Tank… When I asked if we could compete I was half smirking at the idea. This team can’t really expect to compete with either team, and that’s the number 2 reason why we need to go the route of prospects.
Detroit is head and shoulders above us
Cleveland is much much better than us
KC is looking to be equals to us with or without Santana
The White Sox always have Ozzie and Williams running the show so I expect to do better than they do with or without santana.
So why keep 25% of your payroll with one player when you can use that 20 million dollar projected spot, and sign Colon, Fogg, and Prior to about 13 million dollars?
Colon if 100% is good for 15 wins, Fogg is going to be cheaper than Silva, and provide about a 12-13 win season with a 4.30 ERA, and Prior if healthy is a bonified ACE!
Let’s say the Yankees get serious, and the Red Sox up it to Lester.
We trade Nathan for Gallagher from the Cubs, and a couple minor leaguers.
Colon, Liriano, Prior, Fogg, Baker That is a pretty solid pitching rotation.
If Prior is not healthy, you have Slowey or Gallagher ready to go.
With Ole Chubby Boof, Dunesing, Blackburn, Perkins, Sosa, Manship, Pina and the cast of thousands of pitchers all ready to go in once we trade Colon for more prospects at the all star break.
Sane.
With Hughes off the table there is no Yankees deal.
That mets deal is not better than
Ellsbury, Lowrie, Masterson, and another prospect like Moss.
But we’ll never know what he’d take to play if we don’t ask. I just can’t imagine not taking a flyer on a guy as good as he still is. Name me one other available player that would add more wins to this team in 2008?
Here’s a strange question…when did the Twins take the plexiglass off of the outfield walls?
Who asks Bonds to do anything? He does what he wants. He’s not coming here. It’s a waste of brain power to think of it.
These trade ideas are unbelieveable. And the Twins getting Colon, Fogg and Prior. The Twins will get one of them, if none at all. Have you forgotten that the pitching market is bare right now and that is why we think we should get even more for Santana. Everyone wants pitching and everyone is spending money. Those pitcher won’t be be in MN until their teams plays us in the season.
The plexiglass was removed after the 1993 season. I wish they would bring it back. I always like that stuff. It’s odd.
Oddsmakers:
Percent chance that the Johan starts the opener for the Twins?
Lavelle say 10%
I say, more like 60%
BC, Cleveland and Detroit are not THAT good.
Cleveland’s pitching figures to regress after the long season, and they still don’t have a bullpen. And with a decent CF, our offense comes at least very close to even with them.
Detroit’s offense should be very good (while old and injury-prone) but their pitching isn’t nearly as good as our’s WITH Johan, and their bullpen is atrocious.
I think we’re a LOT closer than you think.
ok try this then see if its any better….
twins send: santana rincon punto boof
yankees send: cano hughes joba matsui
mets send: reyes martinez
twins get: cano hughes reyes
yankees get: santana rincon martinez
mets get: joba boof matsui punto
thoughts?
Paul, I may be wrong, but I don’t think under the rules we can trade Everett (a FA signing) until after July 1. Does anyone know for sure?
I agree Dustin. Those teams are favored. But it’s not a done deal. Everyone that we were done two years ago and look what happened.
Thoughts? Never going to happen.
LD,
I think it is still super lop-sided. Yanks fans would have a heart-attack.
if thats the trade our lineup would be….
reyes
cano
mauer
cuddy
morneau
young
kubel
lamb
harris
Liondragon is crazy. You should try and see if they is a good way to swap 25 guys from each team/farm system. That’s a project. March on brother.
yankee fans will have a heart attack is hughes is in a deal for santana…
they would say, “WHAT WAS HANKY PANKY THINKING!!!! YOUR GIVING UP OUR FARM AGAIN!!!!
stop saying im crazy by thinking theres too many players and see who everyone is getting!!!!
Lionheart. You need to give the Mets more for Reyes if your gonna propose trades like that. Joba plust the rest is not nearly enough. You are giving the twins too much. You would have to give the mets cano, to make it even semi-nonridiculous.
Liondragon you should change your name to liger.
I was trying to compliment you liondragon. I really want to see how complex you can make a trade. Try a fourth team with 5 players each.
but tedge the mets get matsui punto AND 2 pitchers one is a #1 starter and 1 is a number 2-3
ok tedge ill think of something weird but possible
let me put my thinking cap on…..
I love Ellsbury, but I’m still in the “sign Santana” camp and would love to just sign Lofton and compete for a title.
Dustin even with Lofton does this make us a playoff team>
Lofton
Harris
Mauer
Cuddyer
Morneau
Young
Kubel/Monroe
Lamb
Everett
Santana, Liriano, Baker, Slowey OCB?
I think this lineup would produce alot more runs. As I have said before if you look around at the top run producing teams, they have atleast 6 starters that have high BA, High SLG and .340+ OBP or High BA and .340+ OBP. With this lineup the Twins would have 6 starters that satisfy these requirements(5 of the 6 that have done it cosistently).Furthermore, the 6 do not include D. Young or J. Kubel. Alot of comments have been made about how Kubel seems ready to move a step forward. Lastly, are pitching staff was third in the league in runs allowed. This team could defintely compete.
lion-
I’m not trying to be mean but that’s a ridiculous trade scenario. The Twins get Hughes, Cano, AND Reyes? Even the Mets and the Yanks aren’t that stupid.
Tedge-
“Smoking weed doesn’t make you a bad person, Mike.” Amen. Comparing Dwight Smith, who got charged with misdemeanor possession, to Bonds is absurd. Smoking a little pot
Liondragon. You give too much value to Joba (Only 20 or so major league innings) and Boof (not a #2 or 3 starter, more like 4/5).
my 2 cents worth:
ellsbury cf
harris 2b bunt / hit/run
mauer c best pure hitter in 3 hole
morneau 1b definate cleanup hitter
young lf
kubel dh monroe/
cuddyer rf
lamb 3b great bat for 8 hole
everett ss best ss defense in baseball
can afford less prod here & still not bad
i really feel this lineup will do some damage…and a strong bench…
redmond, monroe, punto & ?????
LD, it’s still lopsided for the Twins.
Cano and Reyes are proven stars while Hughes is going to likely be an ace.
Santana is a star, Martinez is a prospect, and Rincon is a bullpen arm. (I don’t have any adjectives because right now there aren’t any good ones).
The Mets portion seems more like you’re just taking what’s left and giving it to them. Punto’s a throw in on par with Rincon (what good do they have for a guy who can barely hit by NL standards?)
Again, you seem to be taking all the players that the Twins would want and giving them to the Twins. At the same time you’re taking all the guys the Twins don’t want and just shluffing them off.
Reyes is a superstar.
smoking a little pot… is a lot less of an offense than taking PEDs and cheating your way to the top of the record books.
There are no teams out there that want Punto and Rincon in a trade.
lion
Please pass whatever you are smoking this way, I could use a break from work. Never, Ever, Ever, Ever going to happen. You might as well start researching your fantasy baseball players for next year.
for all you punto haters, you dont have to worry about him starting anymore..barring injury he will definately get his playing time, but will do it by giving guys a day off here and there…lf 3b ss 2b thats not a bad idea and keeps everyone a bit fresher …puntos defense is a real asset..one we shouldnt overlook..now lets get a pitching staff hopefully liriano will be a solid #2 ..i hope we find a solid veteran to lead this staff…maybe by trade (in the nathan deal) and lets get to spring training…
I don’t think Lion thinks these trades are gonna happen. He just is proposing the SUPER MEGA TAKE UP 2 WEEKS ON ESPN BLOCKBUSTER. Also, I know I put PEDs in perspective by comparing them to pot. I want to go on the Joe C. Blog record. I don’t PEDs are that big a deal either, particularly HGH. HGH just makes you heel.
ok here it is…
twins send: santana boof punto rincon slowey baker lamb swarzak
yankees send: hughes joba cano matsui cabrera
mets send: reyes martinez wright
red soxs send: ellsbury lester bucholtz
twins get: hughes reyes cano wright
yankees get: santana rincon baker boof
mets get: punto lamb bulcholtz lester ellsbury
soxs get: slowey martinez matsui cabrera
swarzak
hows that?
sorry typo…
twins send: santana boof punto rincon slowey baker lamb
yankees send: hughes joba cano matsui cabrera
mets send: reyes martinez wright
red soxs send: ellsbury lester bucholtz
twins get: hughes reyes cano wright
yankees get: santana rincon baker boof
mets get: punto lamb bulcholtz lester ellsbury
soxs get: slowey martinez matsui cabrera
joba
LD,
Whoa, where’s Herschel Walker?
send comments on second one please not first one i made an error
Phillies and Mets made offers to Lohse. I would love to see that guy in New York. Man would that be funny to see all those devastating three run homers be the lead on sportcenter every fifth day. Go ahead Omar, get your ace.
tedge i wanna hear you comment on your idea 4 person trade.. i did the thinking i want a comment 
I’m going to forego a comment altogether, lion. I give you points for trying . . .
We don’t need an all-star at every position, just a solid bat that can drive the ball. One weak spot(ss)isn’t all that bad. I like the way things are progressing. With a little luck, we’re competetive in 08 and build for the future.
Why again would the Sox and Yanks be involved in the same trade? I think the Yanks would be getting shafted in the latest trade.
hughes joba cano matsui cabrera for basically Santana? Please stop posting these ridiculous trades. If you are bored go chat on ESPN.
boneyard,
it may not be perfect but its worth talking over
it was worth a shot
Liondrago. How do you give the Twins three of the four best players in that deal. Plus a top pitching prospect. I know your a twins fan’s, but…
Jama,
I encouraged Liondragon. It beats posting lineups all day long.
You guys spend WAAAYYYYY too much time thinking up ridiculous trades which would never happen. Weed? Some of the speculation looks like the LSD back in the 70’s.
ok try this then
twins send: santana boof punto rincon slowey baker lamb blackburn
yankees send: hughes cano matsui cabrera
mets send: reyes martinez wright
red soxs send: ellsbury lester bucholtz
twins get: hughes reyes cano wright
yankees get: santana rincon baker boof
mets get: punto lamb bulcholtz lester ellsbury
soxs get: slowey martinez matsui cabrera
blackburn
this way joba doesnt gt dealt and the soxs get blackburn instead
Maybe we’ve just run out of things to blog about today.
that gives the yankees aton for what there giving…..
and the twins are sending aton
twins get hughes, kennedy and jackson from yanks; ellsbury, lester and bucholtz from the sox and the sox and yanks flip a coin the loser gets santana and the winner gets buffet and rincon. and mets give us reyes for punto. and……………. and they trade nathan to the vatican for the pope who’s the bench coach for gardy.
It seems that in each of your trades LD, the Twins are reaping all the benefits. They’re not giving up anything besides Santana. Slowey, Swarzak, Rincon, Baker, Boof? Average players in return for superstars or top tier prospects doesn’t work. You have to give up valuable peices in return.
Rock on hawk!!! Moon beams tommorrow, yellow grass on the moon.
patrick…
problem is is that the twins have no other prospects thats every prospect they basically have that are any good
[…] Joe Christensen: Twins ‘08 Lineup: Unknown CF, Harris 2B, Mauer C, Cuddyer RF, Morneau 1B, Young LF, Kubel/Monroe DH, Lamb 3B, Everett SS. I actually like this lineup. It gets Punto out of the lineup. Plus, Young is a major upgrade over last year’s LF. Now, if we can just trade Santana and get a good young pitcher and solid CF in return, we’d be set for next year! […]
Lets get this back to normal. Is a trade worth it if the Twins don’t get back a Lester/Bucholz/Hughes in a trade. It seems like part of trade needs to replace Johan in some way not just give us more positional prospects to fill out our farm teams.
Yankees trade A Rod to the Cardinals for Scott Rolen and Jason Isringhausen, the Cardinals send Pujols, A-Rod and Colby Rasmus to the Twins for Mike Lamb and Craig Monroe.
I’m done for the day. I need to get to work. wake me up if anything worthwhile happens.
so mine is never ever having any chance of happening? i spent 30 min for nothing? atleast lets talk about it maybe i can change some of the trade if you just talk about it….
I know Lester isn’t on the level of the other two, but the Red Sox pitching coach is on record as saying that he thinks Lester can win 15-18 games in the majors next year. He just has a lower ceiling than Hughes or Bucholz. He’s a good pitcher.
I thought the Kubel did a very good job hitting 2nd in the line up in September last year.. you might think about flipping Harris and Kubel around in that lineup
instead of complaining about my trade why dont you guys give ideas instead of just trying to put me down.. i put a lot of thought into that. you dont have to just go make stupid trade ideas like arod for craig monroe…… to make make me sad. i was trying to give an idea and if all you guys do is make fun of me instead of giving thoughts about it and giving ideas then ill just stop writing on this blog…..
Dustin F-
If Kubel bats in the 2 hole, where does Mauer bat? Unless Gardy makes an exception on his RLRL policy, it ain’t happening. Granted, in my lineup I assumed he made an exception because I batted Joe second behind Ellsbury, another lefty, so feel free to say he did for you too.
Remember that we’re taking one heck of a risk to think that Liriano is going to come back and dominate like he did in ‘06. I would rather be stuck with a stud like Hughes being my #1 starter than Boof, Slowey, Perkins, in case Liriano comes back and can’t pitch. Nothing is for certain yet.
I’ll have what lion’s smoking…
Twins send: Santana, Nathan, Rincon, Gardy, Boof, Slowey, Wally the Beerman
Yankees send: Hughes, Cabrera, Cano, Kennedy, the hitters eye from the old Yankee stadium, A-Rod’s wife
Mets send: Martinez (Pedro), Reyes, Wright, that giant apple that comes up everytime a Met hits a homerun, a signed photo of Martinez laying out Don Zimmer, that adorable cat that was caught in the old tarp last season
————
Twins get: Everything they want
Yankees get: Nothing they want
Mets get: Confused.
From mlbtraderumors.com:
“It’s been said that Scott Boras, Lohse’s agent, may try to get five years for him. As Jerry Crasnick says, Boras is “willing to wait for teams to get desperate.” You can check out Boras’ spin on Lohse here.”
HOW sickening is that?
the mets aren’t willing to trade wright or reyes let alone both and if any team ever acquired those two in addition to hughes and cano that would be rediculous that is by far the most lopsided trade i’ve ever seen
kevin… i hope you saw that the twins were giving up 8 players with santana
well if all you guys are going to do is laugh at me… its tedge who told me to do it… if your just going to make fun of me ill just stop posting on this blog….
lion, not trying to ruin your day. I just wouldn’t know where to start. There are a lot of teams and players involved. Let’s just say the Twins received more than would be likely in the real world and didn’t give up near enough. The Mets get hosed in your scenario (Wright, Reyes, and Martinez for Punto, Lamb, Bulcholz, Lester, and Ellsbury). I really think it comes down to a 2 team trade with either the Yanks or the Sox. No one else is participating at this time. The Mets don’t have the pieces to participate meaningfully.
lion…i am almost starting to feel bad for you here…youd be hell in fantasy baseball….but now lion..youre in the bigs.. and ya got to think like that…this is the real stuff now…hope this doesnt make you feel worse…just trying to make a point and be a bit therapeutic at the same time…
lion
I’d be okay with you not posting for the rest of the day. No offense but enough is enough.
Back to the Twins. Has anyone heard if the Twins want to try to work Perkins back into the rotation? Do you think he is going to be a permanent piece of the bullpen?
boneyard,
ya your right. tedge just said to try it and i did.. i know it will most likly only be a 2 team trade… i gtg for a while ill be back on before the vikings game ill think about a trade that would be fair.. (2 team trade max 3 team)
well cya
it’s hard to believe that a team would have to be desperate to sign lohse he has the potential to be a #5 starter on a few teams. the sad thing is somebody will give him 20m to stink the place up.
sorry lion……….
lion, there’s a point where the trade starts getting straight up absurd. You’re moving almost a third of the Twins roster at one point.
It may somehow inspire conversation, but the trade itself hits a point where it’s too convoluted to even begin weighing it.
At what point do you just say “The Twins/Mets/Yankees through all their players in a hat and each draw 25 names”?
I haven’t heard anything on Perkins but I, for one, would like to see him worked into the rotation. The Twins did it in similar fashion with Santana and Liriano, so why not with Perkins. I know having two lefties in the pen is important, but maybe Perkins helps the club more in a starting role.
jama…im willing to bet that this is the year for perkins to step in and show his stuff… i think he could easily be the 3/4 man on this staff..but i still want b.s. to find a veteran leader (invest in a smoltz/maddox type) for a year to help these young guys along…r anderson is great but they still need one to be one of the boys…think??? and who could this leader be..any suggestions anybody??
is there a chance nathan could get pie from the cubs?
Only if he shares it with the rest of the clubhouse.
MJ1, I have no idea who could be available. There are no FA who fit the bill. For that kind of trade, we would have to wait until June, I would think. It may be the kids or bust.
MJ1, is there a Maddux/Smoltz even on the market? I would doubt it if Silva’s considered one of the top names this offseason.
What is the deal with Pie? I saw him play last year in spring training and didn’t see it. I think he is drastically overrated and his stats are no good.
we don’t share t so is colvin and marmol from the cubs realistic and can colvin play full time now in the bigs or i should say the mediums?
theres nobody on the market except silva and i wish we still had him, but thats not exactly the answer im looking for…maybe b.s. can pull one off someomes roster with a surprise trade…i guess thats the fun part of being mr b.s……
how about clemens? i hear he brings party treats!
Pie has an awesome last name (not as cool as Dickey, but that’s tough to beat). That’s about all I know of him.
It’d be cool to have Baker and Pie on the team. Though they’d have to watch out for Boof.
gook has a point. Clemens is one of the few pitchers you could sign that would also improve your offense.
1)CF
2)Kubel
3)Young
4)MVP
5)Cuddy
6)Mauer
7)Harris
8)Lamb
9)Everett
Kubel was “born again” when he hit out of the 2 hole.
Can’t pitch around Young with MVP batting next.
Same with Cuddy with Mauer batting next.
Mauer is a doubles hitter, like Harper was when he batted 6th and hit .300 for the world champs in ‘91.
Harris keeps it LRLRLRLR.
Nice to have some Lamb power in the 8 hole.
Pray for Everett.
If the rest of the lineup does what it should do, Everett will work out fine.
sid’s close personal friend is george steinbrenner so take every yankee tidbit he says with a grain of salt. he doesnt realize hes hurting the twins chances because the national media treats his column like fact, and we all know, it sure isnt.
How about this trade:
Yankees get: Santana
Twins get: Hughes, Cabrera, 1 prospect, and some of their steroids.
Then we sneak the roids into Rincon’s locker and either a) he takes them and is somewhat better than terrible, or b) he gets suspended for 100 games.
I love how many think trading santana is the key to competing in a few years. What? He is the major reason we reached the playoffs in 4 of the last 6 years or whatever it is. Look at the W/L record on days he didn’t pitch the last nomber of years. If he won’t sign, then trade him.
But if we’re talking a few million extra per year for an extra two years then we have to pony up. That is the best way to compete.
Harris is not really suited for the #2 hole, since the only time he stole more than 9 bases was 6 years ago in the minors. I’d probably put him in the 8 hole and push everyone up with Mauer batting 2nd. Alternatively, Young can be in the 2 hole
if you’re interested there are some mets and yankee fans on len 3 page doing trade talk.
I also agree that Mauer should bat second. I would prefer to have Delmon hit third, but if Gardy determines he’s not ready, they could always bat Cuddyer third and Delmon fifth.
I like the way this lineup shakes out. Having Lamb and Kubel at the back-end of the lineup is an improvement over Buscher and RonDL.
With good pitching (and we have a lot of young talent), that looks like an intriguing line-up…with the exception of Punto’s name in parentheses.
PLEASE take him out of ANY possible everyday equation. Nick Punto isn’t even a good utility man. In fact, he sucks. He has one purpose on a team, and one that certainly doesn’t warrant a $2.4 million paycheck: He’s a late-inning defensive replacement. And even then, what most people don’t recognize is his lack of lateral range. How many balls are smoked by him down the line simply because he’s a Smurf? Sure, he can tumble around the infield with the best of them, but he’s weaker than people admit from left to right. Anyone watching him play sees that.
If the Twins commit to Lamb at 3B and fill the CF hole with someone able, they’ll have a chance to be competitive. If they go the road of that ignorant defense first garbage, they’ll be worse off than they were this year. The numbers prove it: Good offense beats good defense. And, as we all know, good pitching beats them both.
Besides, you already have the best defensive shortstop in baseball. Just tell him to cover everything east of 2B.
Emotionally, I would prefer the Twins retain Santana for the long haul.
Logically, they need to build a stronger team.
The point being that if the NYY’s, BS, NYM, or anyone else covets him they need to entice me to trade by making an offer than I simply cannot turn down.
Yankee fan here.
Yes, by all means, please take the Elsbury package. You get your lead off hitter.
Just leave Phil Hughes alone.
How about Santana and Liriano for Chamerlain, Kennedy, and Melky?
LaLa72
I have never heard anyone say that Punto is not quick forward or laterally.
Can’t bunt? OK.
Bad hitter? Except for 2006, OK.
No lateral guickness? NONSENSE!
ok im done some thought and heres a idea…
yankees get santana rincon
twins get hughes kennedy horne jackson
the yankees still need bullpen help and rincon would help that and sweeten the trade up for the yankees… thats what the twins want and they may get it with giving them bullpen help
thoughts?
Finally LD one I like and that could happen.
Romer, just got home, and saw your lineup… I like it. I like mauer at the 6 spot, but not in Minnesota… these people would sell their children for that man… he’s not worth it, but he’s “one of us” so we all but rename all of our children Joe Mauer here for him. It’s disgusting.
Gardy doesn’t have the manhood to move Mauer to the 6 spot.
How about trading Nathan to the Mets for Gomez and another prospect? I saw that in a couple of other places.
or trading Nathan to the Cubs for Pie and Gallagher
Then if the Red Sox don’t cave, you could trade Santana to the Hankees for Hughes, Kennedy, Tabata, and Jackson.
Punto and his 2.4 mil contract and Monroe with his 3.8 mil contract will be in the lineup most every day.
The Twins don’t pay players that kind of money intending for them to sit on the bench. This is the Twins we are talking about, lets not act stupid.
Joe C. has Mauer in the #3 spot, exactly where he belongs.
Good night all Craigs.
Good night all Kevins.
Four months since I’ve been on here and I still see Jama, haha…
Ellsbury
Mauer
Young
Morneau
Cuddyer
Kubel/Monroe
Lamb
Harris
Everett
In a perfect world of course… Mauer’s not a #3 hitter, and he shouldn’t be in that role. Give Delmon the prime spot in the lineup along with Morneau. He’s one of the top offensive prospects in baseball for a reason, give him a chance to prove that he’s worth the hype.
BC, do you think that Hank has caved enough to do that kind of deal?
T
my gut reaction is that Hank is still wet behind the ears, and he wants to be his daddy so badly that he’d let his wants overrun his needs, but that he might need a push.
The Mets shuffling the idea (just the idea) of Reyes, or the Red Sox talking about Ellsbury, Lester, Lowrie, or the Twins sitting down and working on a contract extention with Santana… those kinds of things make impatient people do whatever they have to get that next prize.
I also think if they can drop Matsui they would have zero problem pulling the trigger on a Santana deal.
I guess it’s 40/60 NO right now, but with a guy like Hank… that could flip flop by the hour.
BC, you and I agree on Matsui. And it’s why I think the Twins may do well to bring in a third team to help NY move him.
Or just bring in a third team to help spread the costs around.
From the opposing paper I read the following tidbit:
“The trio of newcomers hit a combined 25 home runs last season in 1,052 at-bats; the three regulars they will replace - Luis Castillo, Jason Bartlett and Nick Punto - hit seven in 1,221 at-bats with the Twins.”
Our new guys, Lamb, Everret and Harris hit triple the home runs with 200 fewer at bats. I didn’t realize the upgrade was that significant. I feel much better about the moves now, of course it could just be that three of our infielders last year stunk.
Which is it? Comments?
They stunk if home runs is the only criteria.
I just can’t believe that the Twins who pride themselves on pitching and defense will play Harris at 2B and Lamb at 3B. They will both give up more runs then they knock in.
I just can’t believe that the Twins who pride themselves on pitching and defense will play Harris at 2B and Lamb at 3B. They will both give up more runs then they knock in.
Harris will be given every chance to develop his defense. Lamb will likely be replaced Buscher (or an aquired propsect/young 3B) by the end of the year.
However, he could be valuable off the bench if his bat produces.
JJS - Harris should be fine at second. His problem at short was mostly his range, which shouldn’t be a problem at second. His fielding percentage was pretty good even at short. Lamb scares me a bit, but paired with Everett it’s not so bad. Remember, when you insist on a limited budget you have to make compromises. I think an infield of Harris, Everett and Lamb is a very nice compromise considering the budget Carl makes the team use. And we can replace Lamb in late innings with Punto if we’re ahead.
The additional home runs the new infielders are likely to produce will be nice, but there is more to the game. Lamb is a downgrade defensively, and I’m not sure about Harris. I think he’ll be fine, but we won’t know how he stacks up defensively with Castillo until we see him. Castillo was a good opb guy, so it’s not like there was no offense out of 2B last year. Overall, I think the 3 new infielders are a slight collective upgrade over last year. We should be better in LF and DH, too. Depending on how CF shales out, the ‘08 everyday line up may be better than ‘07.
Uh, that should be “shakes out.” Geez.
quick question. Has anyone heard that a lester-ellsbury offer would get the job done?
The Sox won’t offer Lester/Ellsbury because they don’t really want Johan unless they can steal him. They don’t have a starter spot available for Lester & they still have Crisp to play center if the trade both Lester & Ellsbury. If they truly wanted Johan, they already would have packaged both with Lowry & another pitching prospect.
coco,
not my question. just wondering that if they offered that package, would the twins accept?
I, obviously, can’t speak for the Twins.
I think if that package was offered now, I would hold out for one more prospect.
Later, if no better offer was received, I would take it.
If the sox offer lester, elsbury, lowry and another prospect, it would be a done deal!
I think Beantown and Coco get it. There is little reason for Boston to not do a Lester/Ellsbury deal if they REALLY want Santana. They gain much more than they loose- Lester does not have a spot now, he will be even farther from a starting spot if they acquire Santana. And the difference between Crisp and Ellsbury is really just potential- which could be significant, but there is a chance that Ellsbury’s career will be very simular to Crisp’s.
I can see a senario where the Sox put Lester in the deal instead of Masterson to make it a little sweeter without getting fleeced. Something like Ellsbury/Lester/Lowrie/low-to-mid level prospect.
If that would happen, I think the Twins pounce on it.. that might be max value.
With all due respect, JC, I think you’re off on the lineup. Batting Young 6th would be ridiculous. Here’s mine:
1. CF TBA
2. C Mauer
3. LF Young
4. RF Cuddy
5. 1B Morneau
6. DH Kubel/Monroe (hopefully with a lot more Kubel and a lot less Monroe)
7. 3B Lamb
8. 2B Harris
9. SS Everett
Matt Kemp! CF.
Now that we have Lamb and don’t have to ask for Laroche and they have Kuroda coming, call the Dodgers and offer Santana for Kemp and Kershaw. They then have Santana-Penny-Billingsley-Kuroda-Lowe and Schmidt if he recovers so they don’t need Kershaw that much long term. They keep Broxton.
The Twins will not get both Ellsbury AND Lester in the same package for Santana. Both are VERY good prospects and Boston doesn’t desperately need Santana as the Yanks do. Lester is a young lefty whose career record is very impressive and he has ice water in his veins. If the twins are smart they will take the Lester package (with Masterson and Lowerie and Crisp). That is MUCH better than what the Yanks are offering. Masterson is a future stud and Lester is better than the Yanks Philip Hughes. And Coco is the same player as Melky Cabrera. Only Coco is a better fielder. Check the batting stats. Coco and Melky have the same numbers.
problem is that we dont have the spots in our roster for all those people… thats why we want bulcholtz and ellsbury cause we only have one spot left in our roster.. we will probably have to throw someone in (please be rincon or punto) to get what we want and be able to put them on the roster… though i would really like to keep santana now and just trade nathan to the cubs for pie and maybe marmol. we have the money now that we went inexpensive with our shortstop and 3rd base. i believe we have about 15-20 mil left on the payroll to pay for santana. (that includes the 13 mil we are paying him this year) so add 12 more mil on the contract and we still have 3-8 mil left.. if we get rid of rincon and punto we will have 8-13 mil left
You have NO shot at getting Bucholz. None.
Agreed,
Bucholz isn’t coming. It sure feels like the Twins are gonna be the ones that flinch first.
Making room on the roster is routine.
Just send Korecky and/or Bass back to Rochester.
If we lose them on waivers, who cares?
What makes everyone think that the Cubs would trade Pie for Nathan? Is that an actual rumor out there or are people just talking out of there arses?
Liondragon… if we have filled all our positions except CF (that is debatable), no reason we can’t trade Johan to Met’s for Gomez &/or Martinez & several pitchers, to get him out of AL. Then trade Nathan for MLB ready starter or closer & 2nd prospect. Also to NL.
Here’s what I’m thinking. What would it take to get Willits from The Angels of Anahiem in Los Angeles or whatever they are? I’m thinking they would give him up for a Yankees prospect and one of ours say Tabaka and Sosa? (I’m saying Tabaka because the only weakness I can find on the Angels is an aging OF and by the time Tabaka is ready he can move in and replace some one and a pitcher cause you can never have too much pitching) and we can get Hughes, Kennedy, Tabaka, and another minor leaguer Austin? for Santana. The Yanks can keep Cabrera….I hope the Twins don’t aquire him….I just don’t think he will be all that good.
It’s all speculation gang.No decent GM would ever telegraph his moves.This guy could be in a particular package, that guy is not or ever will be part of a package.Like poker on TV,it’s all about bluffing.As might say.it’s not final until it’s final.I hope the final is the Mets
ophs-as Yogi might say
Geno, I agree except it can be anywhere in NL not just the Mets.
Anybody notice in the STrib today Roger Maris made $42,000 in 1961?
Those were high earnings at that time.
A school teacher earned about $6000 per year then so Maris was paid seven times what was a average income at that time.
It is stated that Santana is asking $140 million dollar contract.
Assuming an average income now is about $40,000 then Santana will earn 3500 times the average income now.
That is what the disparity between athletes and ordinary careers has become.
I prefer Santana would be signed by the Twins. He is an exceptional player and and seems to be an exceptional person. He is as close to a sure win as there is in baseball, and that has ever been a Twin. He seems to be a good clubhouse guy and role model.
But, realistically I can understand why a team elects to pass on him.
That is nearly an unimaginable amount of money.
Soxfan1:
It appears Crisp has better range than Melky Cabrera, but Cabrera has a better arm (more than twice the assists, but fewer total chances in more innings played in the field). Offhand, of the two, I’d rather have Crisp, I guess – more stolen bases. But if we’re trading Santana, I’d want Ellsbury, not Crisp. Crisp would be fine if we kept Santana and traded someone else. If Santana is kept, the only position the Twins need filled for now is CF.
The three downsides to Crisp are: OBP (The Twins need a leadoff hitter), his contract - he’ll be FA eligible sooner than Ellsbury or Cabrera; and his arm (fewer assists).
coco.why not the Mets?
Who else agrees that Franz Ferdinand is one of the best bands of the decade. I would put them at least in the top 15.
The whole decade? I dunno. They’re good though.
Write something new Joe, c’mon
Lester better Phil Hughes? Are you smoking crack or eat paint chips as Kid?
Hughes future potential #1
Meanwhile Lester #2
Lester’s walks alot of ton guys while Hughes doesn’t.
He throws harder than Lester despite coming injury last year…
Why is Casilla getting lost in the shuffle?
Gleeman’s been high on his defense (rocket arm) and his OBP. Sure he’s young but isn’t his upside better than Harris? This should be a rebuilding year.
I’d prefer to see the Twins platoon Harris with Lamb at 3rd base. That should be a Koskie like 3rd baseman offensively.
I know I’m biased because I love Casilla, but I think he has good potential. On the other hand, I hardly know anything about Harris.
Nasty.
Harris was a pretty solid prospect for the Cubs a few years ago… his glove is adequate, his arm is adequate, his range is limited as a SS so they think he translates much better as a 2nd baseman.
Projection wise his numbers last year were on par with what one should expect from him. With a bit of a more stylized team like the Twins compared to the Devil Rays I think he could increase his batting average, and his doubles.
I think about .275 20 doubles 12 homers 61 RBI… not much of a base stealer so if he hits 10 steals this year it will be amazing.
His advantage to the line up over Casilla is that he has pop, and is a professional ball player. Casilla is just a kid, and there is no need to run him up here, and ruin him before he is ready like they may have done with Kubel.
If they trade for Ellsbury, Lowrie, Masterson, and Bowden or Moss… just think of what the future has for the Twins there.
Ellsbury, Young, and Moss would make up a very young outfield core for years.
in AAA they would have Busher at 3rd, Lowrie at 2nd, Casilla at SS, Jones at 1st, and Tolbert would be the heir to the Punto/Reboulet/Hocking/Al Newman role). We’d have Pirdie in CF getting some experience to be our 4th outfielder in 2009 when Monroe is gone.
We could keep Span in AA where he belongs until he’s a 5 year non 40 guy that can get picked up by the Marlins to rot in their minors…
It could be a beautiful thing.
or better we could add Span and something maybe with Santana and get Lester.
Lester, Ellsbury, Lowrie, and Masterson works really well for me too.
Last year, Casilla made some decisions while baserunning and fielding that indicate he lacks a grasp of elementary baseball knowledge.
Most college players would not make those mistakes although Casilla has far better tools and skills than they do.
I think he has great upside, but
I also think he needs at least one more full year experience in the minors to raise his baseball IQ and make him a solid MLB player.
[quote]
Boston Globe Nick Cafardo - Today’s Article on Santana
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/articles/2007/12/23/perry_cuts_to_the_chase/?page=4
Page 4 of 4 –
[quote]
Santana clause
Here’s the skinny on a possible deal for Johan Santana. The Red Sox would break from their philosophy of not giving out long-term deals for Santana. They’d prefer fewer than the seven years agent Peter Greenberg is seeking but will go there for one of the top two or three pitchers. Since the winter meetings, nothing has changed with Boston’s offer, but after the New Year things are expected to get down to the nitty-gritty, when Minnesota will expect the Yankees and Red Sox to give their final “best offer.” The Sox are still offering Coco Crisp, Jon Lester, Justin Masterson, and Jed Lowrie. If the Yankees don’t include Ian Kennedy, the Red Sox will land him. As to the growing theory that Josh Beckett would be bent out of shape over Santana earning twice as much, forget it. Beckett signed the contract and knew what he was doing.
more stories like this[/quote]
Pitch counts count
One thing that makes the Santana deal attractive to the Red Sox is the great care the Twins have taken with the ace since he entered the big leagues in 2000. In 251 games and 175 starts, only once did he reach the 120-pitch mark. That came in a 7-1 loss to the White Sox April 21, 2006, at Chicago, where he went seven innings.
Mariners in the mix
Sources inside the Mariners organization still indicate they’re alive on Santana and Baltimore’s Erik Bedard. There’s a lot of disappointment in Seattle over losing the Hiroki Kuroda bidding with the Dodgers. He was clearly the best of the available free agent pitchers, which forced the Mariners to sign former Twin Carlos Silva to a four-year, $48 million deal that is hard to figure. Do the Mariners have the pieces to land Santana and Bedard? Among Adam Jones, Brendan Morrow, and catching prospect Jeff Clement, they probably do. But the issue is: Can they satisfy Santana’s contract demands? In a division where the Angels have improved, the Mariners are feeling some pressure to do something big.[/quote]
Nothing will happen on the Twins’ trade front until January. Things will start happening fast & furious then. See you then guys. Merry Christmas & Happy New Year to everyone.
Jacoby Ellsbury seems to really fit a Twins need. He has speed, plays quality defense, and exhibits a quality strike zone judgment. As a result he will set the table nicely for guys like Mauer, Morneau and Delmon Young. Personally, I believe we should accept this deal (Ellsbury, Masterton, Lowrie, etc) without a starter in return. We are still deep on starters albeit they are inexperience yet talented. Liriano, Baker, Bonser, Slowey, Perkins, Blackburn and Duensing. I think we’ll be OK. If we settle for Coco Crisp than we just settled for junk when we hold the best trade chip in baseball. My vote is for Jacoby Ellsbury.
David Mellstrom.
David, I agree with all your points except for two.
1)Crisp is not junk.
2)Santana is not the best chip when he has a $140-$200 million anchor attached to him. If he and the contract were the best chip, the offers would be better.
The other teams are capable of evaluating that chip and NO ONE is offering much because Santana and the money issue cannot be separated.
Th other teams offers are the only real measure of Santana’s actual trade value.
Here is to trading Johan, Nathan, Rincon, and maybe even Cuddyer in an attempt to bolster this team up for the future.
Cuddyer and Blackburn to the Cardinals for Colby Rasmus and Allan Craig
Santana, Span, and Rincon to the Red Sox for Lester, Ellsbury, Lowrie, and Masterson
Nathan to the Cubs for Pie and Gallagher
Trade Morneau to obtain desperately needed pitching.
