Cooperstown is calling
Posted on January 7th, 2008 – 6:41 PMBy Joe Christensen
If you’re one of those people who has to know first, you can find this year’s Hall of Fame election results by clicking on baseballhall.org, Tuesday at 1 p.m. (Central).
This was my second year voting, and it continues to be a hair-pulling decision process. I made eight selections, down from nine a year ago. Many will argue that I was still too generous:
My chosen eight: Bert Blyleven, Andre Dawson, Rich Gossage, Jack Morris, Dale Murphy, Tim Raines, Jim Rice, Alan Trammell.
My notable snubs: Tommy John, Don Mattingly, Mark McGwire, Dave Parker, Lee Smith.
50 Responses to "Cooperstown is calling"
Yeah, pretty generous in particular with regard to Raines and Trammell, imo. I might not (ok, I wouldn’t) include Dawson or Murphy either, but I acknowledge a case could be made for them. I just don’t ever remember watching Raines or Trammell and thinking, “that guys gonna be in the Hall some day.” In fact, Parker might have made my ballot before those guys.
Would agree largely with Jim. Definite yes to Blyleven. No major disagreement with Gossage or Rice. No to the balance.
After reading firejoemorgan.com and seeing all of the idiot writers like Heyman this is a nice ballot. Morris (3.90 ERA, 105 ERA+ is 3 points better than Silva) and Dawson (.323 OBP) are the most borderline in my opinion. I’ve seen solid arguments against Rice and Murphy, but I wont complain. Raines and especially Trammel don’t get enough respect in my opinion. Others have made the argument for Raines better than I can, and it’s kind of been the trendy argument of late, so they should be easy to find. I looked at Trammel harder after it was pointed out that the Tigers wouldn’t trade Trammel for Ozzie straight up.
I think its now or never for Blyleven
getting into the hall.
Somewhat excessive, though I salute you for understanding the value of Raines and Trammell, both of whom deserve it.
Morris is, frankly, a brutal choice. Murphy, Rice, and Dawson are probably Hall of Very Good guys also. Still, you got the 4 guys who actually deserve it on there, so well done.
I guess I’m a bit tougher.
If I had a ballot: Blyleven, Raines, Gossage & McGwire
Borderline: Trammel, Dawson & Murphy
Not quite: Morris and Rice
The fact that Jim Rice is getting more attention that Dale Murphy and Tim Raines just proves East Coast bias lives.
Raines had cocaine problems, nobody is talking about that, McGwire did what Selig and the baseball establishment knew was happening (and tacitly approved of) and he is punished — either both out or both in…
PS: JimCrikket — you don’t remember thinking Raines because his best years were in Montreal and he had the misfortune of being one of the best lead off hitters of all time, while playing in the same era as the greatest…
Joe - Will McGwire ever get your vote? If so, what would it take?
Nice ballot, Paris Hilton.
If I had a vote, It would be for Gossage only. The HOF should be exclusive.
In the future I’d consider McGwire and maybe Raines.
I think that’s a fine ballot, Joe. It seems like you are more of a large-Hall guy than I am, but I think you were remarkably consistent. You rated everyone fairly, giving votes to the deserving under-appreciated guys like Trammel and Murphy that many writers, even large-Hall guys, tend to miss. I think your notable snubs ARE a step down from your chosen eight. It’s not like you submitted a big ballot but missed Raines or Blyleven.
Joe…
If I had a vote…
Jim Rice and Blyleven would be the only two players going in.
Don Mattingly is my second all time favorite player behind Roberto Clemente, and I couldn’t put him in…
How did you vote for Murphy, Trammell and Raines, and not Mattingly, Parker, or Lee Smith?
I am not trying to slam you or anything. I was just wondering if you would share your thought process?
ossieO, do you know anything about Blyleven’s stats, curveball, and competitiveness?
Was Murphy a good ball player? Sure, lots of homers, but ………
What gets lost in this whole process is the large egos of some of these sport writers who have a vote(not you Joe).East coast bias has already been brought up.Writers in the past have mentioned that they didn’t vote for a guy because he was mean to the press and didn’t grant interviews.The HOF is diminished by those type of attitudes
I don’t see how anyone can vote for Dale Murphy as a HOFer, .265 with 398 HR’s just doesn’t cut it.
Trammell is another. Seth Stohs has a great comparison of Alan’s lifetime stats to Lou Whitaker’s. Lou is superior in almost every category yet he is no longer eligible for HOF consideration due to lack of votes. A crime.
Rice and Dawson are borderline, if it was my vote it would be no, but I can see the arguments for electing them.
If Gossage is a yes, Smith should be to.
Thanks Joe for posting your votes, makes for great discussion.
Blyleven was not good enough to be in the Baseball Hall of Frame. He was only an average pitcher at best who hung around for a long time. Blyleven thinks he is the greatest pitcher in history-but he really was nothing more than a bum with an over-inflated ego. He still has the ego, but does not deserve serious Hall of Fame consideration. It would be an insult to all the great players if he was elected.
I am curious how many of you think that McGwire deserves to get in? If you say no, is it because of stats or steroids?
I personally think that McGwire should be a lock, either you vote for everyone from the steroid era that deserves to get in or you vote for nobody from this era. I don’t think you can pick and choose based on who you think may or may not have taken roids.
He was only an average pitcher at best who hung around for a long time.
Ignorance is bliss.
thomasson you don’t know much about baseball.
60 shutouts, top 10 all time, retired with the 3rd most strikeouts in the history of the game. He has a no hitter, all star appearances, 280 plus wins, a lifetime era just above 3.
He missed two years because of injuries.
He won two world series, and in the 2nd one he and Viola were a two man team.
He and Dwight Gooden have the greatest curveballs in the history of the game.
Blyleven was a character which is a good thing… he’s not a plain jane kind of guy. He was great for baseball, and he was a winner…
He was never a free agent once in his career I believe until maybe the Angels… so he didn’t choose to be a Twin in the 70’s, a Ranger, Pirate, Indian, or Twin again. He didn’t get to play for GREAT teams… so to see his wins on teams like the Rangers, and Indians… to not put that into consideration… is an injustice… he was the ace of his staff on every team he was on until Viola… and he still had very productive seasons until he hurt his arm for the 3rd time and couldn’t pitch again.
Blyleven is more deserving of the Hall of Fame than you give him credit for, or a lot of people give him credit for. I know I live in Minnesota, and have that home team kind of rha rha thing going right now, but how the hell can you look at his numbers and tell me he was a mediocre pitcher?
You need to look up your history pal, look at the era he pitched in, look at the other pitchers of his era, and look at his career rankings in every single catagory as a pitcher. He belongs in the hall of fame.
Jama,
The steroids equal the stats. He was a 1 dimensional ball player.
When he was on pace for his 70 homer season they replayed the 90 World Series… McGwire was a freaking BEAN POLE compared to that year. Sosa went from 6 ft and 180 as a rookie in 1990 to 265 in 97-98?
If McGwire would have had a higher BA, if he would have had more hits, if he would have not looked like a lying Enron Exec in front of Congress on national TV shortly before the Hall Voting… and come across as Mr. All American before that… and how he’s been more hidden than Bin Laden ever since. Never came out and said I didn’t do anything… he is acting like a criminal on the run.
Because the STEROID ERA is defined as the McGwire Era… his homeruns are cheapened, and until he comes clean the Writers will not vote him in. These people have the integrity of the Hall of Fame to think about.
Though having Fergie Jenkins, Cap Anson and Ty Cobb really lose a lot of their Moral High Ground…
I still say keep him out.
Bonds and Clemens in… McGwire and the rest of the ROID ragers out.
romer quote:
ossieO, do you know anything about Blyleven’s stats, curveball, and competitiveness?
Yes, I’ve perused the Blyleven series at baseballanalyst.com, and I’ve read many arguments in forums like this. It’s just that I’m a small hall guy, and HOFer should make more than 2 All-star games.
(Yes, I know 4 times top10 in Cy Young.)
On a side note, I can’t stand listening to him now; I could never watch the Twins if he got into the hall. 
jama, the only reason for not electing McGwire would have to be the PED issue, imo.
But I disagree that a voter has to ignore that issue or refuse to vote anyone from that era in. HoF voting is not a court of law. There is no “beyond a reasonable doubt” criteria for judging. Being a HoF voter in this case is comparable to being a jury member in a civil trial. If you look at the evidence and conclude, based on a preponderance of the evidence, that the player used PEDs to attain his HoF-worthy stats, you “convict” him and withold your vote. Other guys, where you see little or no evidence of PED reliance that affected his stat line, you go ahead and vote in.
I do think it would be interesting for the HoF to adopt a “recall vote” procedure whereby HoF voters could petition to have a player removed from the HoF in the event that significant evidence comes to light that might have significantly affected his votes had the evidence been known to voters when he was elected.
JimCrikket-the ”reasonable doubt” inference was in regard to the Clemens matter not the HOF vote.
I guess how I see it is that if McGwire goes into the hall of fame it should be postumously.
I feel the same way about Pete Rose. He belongs in the Hall of Fame, and the day after his life has ended the Hall of Fame out of respect for his accomplishments on the field should come together, and pay homage to his playing, and elect him to the hall of fame.
I also think that Joe Jackson has done his time and has carried out his lifetime ban… his lifetime is long over, and he was never proven to have done anything wrong.
If Ty Cobb can kill a man, and Cap Anson can be a Racist… if Fergie Jenkins can be busted for drugs…
I think wrongs need to be righted, and there has to be a certain level of forgiveness of sins so to speak.
I don’t want those people out of the hall of fame. But I want the voters reminded that when they take the moral high ground they are in fact saying that they are behind all people in the hall of fame, and therefore are condoning a murder, an avid, and staunch racist, and a convicted drug user. It’s what they like to call a slippery slope.
And I’ve been sending letters to the Veteran’s committee trying to get Al Oliver put in the hall of fame. He was the most underrated, and unappreciate player of the 70’s and 80’s. His career numbers are much better than a lot of people in the hall of fame.
And I’d put him in over McGwire, Lee Smith, Gossage… that one just drives me nuts. Goose doesn’t belong in the hall of fame. sorry.
This year it’s Rice and Blyleven.
By the way I LOVE WATCHING BERT. He’s the only reason to watch the twins in 2008 in some cases… like if Bonser is pitching.
I mean look what Bert is dealing with Bremer is kind of BLAH… and the two guys on the radio? Dan Gladden is a joke, and there are times listening to John Gordon where I contemplate sharpening pencils and shoving them in my ears. He’s GOD AWEFUL… maybe the worst radio announcing duo in the history of baseball… they are as bad on radio as the idiots for the WhiteSox are on TV.
All-star games for pitchers is over-rated. Johann didn’t make the 04 All-star and was Cy Young.
BC,
Gladden is aweful but, worse than Hawk?
Shawn…
Gladden and Gordon combined are as bad as Hawk and Whimpy… when they were at their very worst. Harrelson is the worst TV baseball guy ever… but in tandom… Gladden and Gordon hurt the ears of deaf people they are so bad.
One more Harley story from Gladden and I don’t think I’ll ever take 169 to mankato ever again. One more boring non-baseball conversation about John and his wife walking, or taking a ride on the off day to go see parts of Minnesota… and I might have to take my Jim Rice, wait no, Kirby Puckett Autographed bat, and break the radio.
Listening to them is like watching Boof Bonser followed by Juan Rincon…
A lost cause, and a feble excuse of baseball.
I like Morris much better! Gladden is a chucklehead. I can handle Gordon when he stays on topic.
I don’t mind Morris as a 3rd guy, or a middle innings guy or what have you, but the other two…
they are the combined Denard Span of the airwaves. FLUSH.
BC
Didn’t McGwire hit quite a few HR’s in 1990 when he looked like a bean pole? He hit a lot of HR’s throughout his whole career. I am sure the PED’s helped him but you can’t just look at how much he weighed and say, Ah ha that is why he hit more HR’s.
Also why are you letting Clemens and Bonds in but not McGwire if it is based on PED’s? It sounds to me like you are flip flopping on your previous statements and that you are picking and choosing without any criteria.
I’m not saying this with an intention of defending any particular broadcaster, but I just think that’s one of the most brutal jobs in sports.
First, the nature of the job itself is that you have to try to make 162 baseball games sound interesting during the season. Let’s face it… at least half the games just AREN’T interesting and even in games that ARE interesting, at least half the innings played aren’t all that dramatic. But you can’t just say nothing (certainly not on the radio) and a broadcaster who honestly says, “wow this is boring” will be driving a beer truck next season.
Now you have to consider the disparity in knowledge level and personal preferences among your listeners. Some of us just want to hear you tell us (preferably accurately) what’s going on. Some want a bit of inside analysis to give context to what’s going on. But the club and the broadcast companies want to expand and attract more casual fans as well and that means you see and hear a lot of pretty cheesy stuff. (Yes, the “circle me bert” is getting as old as “the wave”, but given the number of signs you still see at every game, can there be any doubt that the gimmick has had an effect?)
Just once, try sitting with one friend as you watch a game with the mute button on and pretend you’re the broadcaster and analyst for that game. Don’t miss a pitch in your description. Try to provide some interesting analysis. Oh… and watch your language so you don’t “pull a Blyleven”. Once you’ve survived that game, imagine doing it 162 times.
Sometimes a certain broadcaster will come across to me like fingernails on a chalkboard. Some I absolutely refuse to listen to. That said, I just think they all have tougher gigs than we sometimes acknowledge and we could cut them a little slack.
Bonds and Clemens were Hall of Fame calibur players without steroids… they were the best hitter and pitcher of thie generation before the steriod era… take the last 10 years off of their career, and they were still hall of famers.
According to Canseco who is a lousy source… McGwire was shooting up as of 1989 already… From all reports Bonds didn’t start taking steroids until Sosa and McGwire stole his thunder… his ego couldn’t handle having people that he knew cheated being considered better than he was.
McGwire’s whole career is tainted by the steriods.
BC
Are you sure that Clemens and Bonds weren’t using steroids in the early 90’s? That’s the problem you don’t know who was using them, what they were using, and when they started using them. That’s why I think it is a very slippery slope to say this guy was using and for this long to make judgements on the HOF.
Off topic, but interesting. Spring Training game tickets went on sale today to regular season ticket holders. The phone lines were jammed, and the online site had a waiting room. It was a nice sign of spring!
Games, followed by a wonderful Italian dinner at Nina’s! A fabulous spot recommended by Joe last year. Join us Joe!
Bert Blyleven might be the toughest candidate to judge. His career numbers are exceptional, but he just never had a stretch as a dominant pitcher. He only made two or three All-Star teams!
I don’t think I could vote for him. I’m not sure if I’d vote for Trammell or Murphy either. But I think this year makes for a great debate. You could argue for or against about 10 guys on the ballot. There’s no sure thing.
Before being traded to Toronto, Clemens had 3 CYs so maybe he warranted HoF consideration. But at that point he had only 192 wins and a 3.06 career ERA. I’m not sure how many HoFers have been voted in with comparable stats. He had won 11, 9, 10 and 10 games in his last four seasons as a Red Sox pitcher. If those are the last impressions he leaves for future voters, I think his chances take a hit… and I doubt he’s a first ballot guy.
Bonds hit 374 HRs in his first dozen years and had a career BA of .288. His 3 MVPs in those years helps his chances, I agree. But overall, his numbers before he supposedly started juicing look an awful lot like Dale Murphy’s and Jim Rice’s… and I don’t see those guys in the HoF yet (maybe an hour from now, that’ll change for one of them).
Both of those guys would be looking at first ballot elections based largely on their remarkable productivity over very long careers. If PEDs contributed to their productivity while their peers were long since retired, then I don’t think you give them a pass because they were stars before they started juicing.
Gossage in the hall, and Rice, and Blyleven screwed again.
2008 starts off as a JOKE! Gossage does not belong in the hall of fame!
He is not one of the 5-10 best closers of all time.
Jama…
If there is no proof, then I have to go with my gut, and I still say Clemens and Bonds belong in the hall of fame.
Jim Rice Belongs in the hall of fame.
Bert Blyleven belongs in the hall of fame.
Rich Gossage was a closer… and for 5-8 years he was dominating… and I hate the idea of a guy that hung around for a lot of years after his last decent year as a Padre.
I guess that means that Every closer out there now is a hall of famer.
Nathan hall of fame.
Rivera Hall of fame (but that was never in doubt.
Trever Hoffman hall of fame
Lee Smith hall of fame
Dan Quisenberry Hall of fame
Ron Davis Hall of fame
Donnie Moore NRA Hall of Fame
Juan Berrenger to the hall of fame
Jeff Reardon to the hall of fame
Kent Tekulve pitched for 73 years… he can be a hall of famer too.
Pete Redfern to the hall of fame.
UGH… this is just a joke!
Bert jumped up from 48 to 62% so at least he’s moving the right direction again. That’s encouraging for him, I guess.
Tough for Rice, getting 72% and having just one year left of eligibility.
bc it’s bs
I am so freakin’ sick of seeing Bert get the shaft for not getting into the HOF. Unfortunately the politics still are very important in the sportswriters votes.
Bert was not the most likeable when he was playing a lot of the time being unwilling to talk to the press. I don’t fault him for that, the last thing I would want to do after I just lost would be to talk to the press. But those guys are the ones that are now voting for him to get into the HOF.
If Bert doesn’t get in, in the next couple of years there needs to be a revamp of this system.
but you can bet schilling will get in because of the bloody sock and an espn campaign without having hof #’s
If Schilling goes into the Hall of Fame before Blyleven gets in we need to to have another boston Tea Party and throw the nESPN (new england sports network) into Boston Harbor!
It was nice to see that McGwire went up a whole .1% from 23.5 to 23.6%
Hopefully he doesn’t get any votes next year.
Blyleven took a nice jump, and came in 3rd. Rice just barely missed.
Next year the only real candidate I can think of is Rickey Henderson, but I have to double check…
Henderson should get a 97-98% next year as the greatest leadoff hitter in the history of baseball… not just my generation.
I cannot believe how many people, including the voters, look at how many All-Star games Blyleven appeared in or how he did in Cy Young voting when judging his HOF worthiness.
When somebody has the stats that Blyleven has and where he ranks on the all-time lists, I cannot fathom how he is not considered a Hall of Famer. As somebody else mentioned earlier, Santana was not on the 2004 All-Star team but went on to win the Cy Young. He should have also won the Cy Young in 2005, but the writers looked at how Bartolo Colon’s Wins, rather than whether he was the best pitcher.
Others on the ballot next year:
David Cone, Mark Grace, Mo and Greg Vaughn. Henderson is the only first ballot winner unless they add Ricky “Wild Thing” Vaughn to the ballot as well.
Henderson is the only guy on that list that goes into the hall of fame.
David Cone is the only other player on that list that gets to stick around for a 2nd season.
BC, Schilling and Bert will never be on the ballot at the same time. Either Bert will already be voted in before Schilling is eligible to be on the ballot or he’ll have been removed from the ballot after 15 years of eligibility by then.
Jim
The point I’m making is if Schilling gets into the hall of fame, and Blyleven doesn’t… it’s an absolute Joke. Blyleven was every bit as good as Schilling.
to many so called writers get the truth from espn because they are to lazy to work. espn is terribly biased and will schill for schilling day and night. you’ve got a st paul writer wanting to trade silva last month when he was a free agent. to many of these guys rely on, i think t calls it, uninformed speculation which leads to bs. the old timers found the news in the bar after the game now these guys sit in front of a computer in the spare bedroom and get the news or organize their cd collection.
i’ll bet my house schilling gets more votes first ballot than black jack’s highest total and jack’s #’s are as good or better. jack will have 30+ more wins in 30 less games and a .5 higher era pitching his entire carrer in the al with a dh with schilling pitching most of his in the nl. needless to say i don’t like the endlessly self promoting schilling.
