Monday morning check-in
Posted on January 14th, 2008 – 9:06 AMBy Joe Christensen
The Cardinals and Blue Jays swapped former All-Star third basemen this weekend — Scott Rolen for Troy Glaus — and the Braves agreed to trade for Oakland center fielder Mark Kotsay, (both moves are pending physicals).
But the Twins still have Johan Santana. I spoke to GM Bill Smith a couple times this weekend, and as usual, he was putting in long hours in his office. But I didn’t hear much buzz on the Santana front.
In a sign of the times, as the Twins winter caravan began today, the team took two promotional videos: One with Santana and one without him.
275 Responses to "Monday morning check-in"
well i hope the twins go after the ellsbury deal its the best on the table unless f-mart and gomez or both on the table
i was picking tomorrow for hank to cave and johan going to the yanks doesn’t look good unless the mets make an offer today and hank counters to get the deal done. this is getting old, something has to happen quick. i would like him with the mets rather than either sox or yanks that would be better for the balance of power in the al.
I think this will get done in the next 10 days. I originally predicted Jan. 16th so I still have a chance.
Has anyone heard anything about Nathan getting dealt?
yes thats true but i still believe the sox have the best offer on the table, unless the mets offer f-mart and gomez together. I just think somethings gonna happen today i can feel it. When its quiet it means the most is happening behind closed doors. All weekend it was very quiet i expect that bill smith will decide which package is best tell the other teams which deal he is gonna go with and tell them this is there last chance to ante up a lil more or he is gone to the other team see if he can get more out of them if not jut go with the best offer on the table.
everyone suspects if santana goes nathan will follow whether it be right away or at the trade deadline dont expect him to be a twin for the whole year.
nothing new has come up though jama.
Agreed Nathan should be Traded because this year we have no use for him.
But, What are the chances we hold onto him for the entire year. We see how close this team is to winning and then resign him in the offseason..
I know, I know we dont want to run the risk of losing him just like we lost hunter/silva… but if this team is only a piece or two away then why not lock up the best closer in the game? (by the end of next year he should have the title)
any thoughts?
With Santana,Hunter,Silva, and others gone we have enough money for Nathan. We need to lock him up. We will be a good in a couple years, and we need Nathan. No excuses sign him.
do you really think the pohlads will give nathan the 12+m a yr it will take to resign him?
Worst case scenario is that Nathan will be a Class A free agent (not a total loss). Are all pitchers rated together or are starters and relievers separate when they figure who is Class A/Class B?
With Rivera destroying the market with his 45 million extension for three years, signing Nathan won’t happen. And for a good reason: the closer position is the most overrated in the game. Set-up men are more valuable, since they have to pitch out of trouble and come in with guys on base. Closers get to start fresh with no runners on, and most times with a 3-run cushion. Besides, what’s the point of having a top-dollar closer when the Twins are threatening to be a .500 club again? Trade for talent. No-brainer.
Nathan’s getting old and after this season will be very expensive. Besides, he wouldn’t have a whole lot of motivation to sign for a team going through a rebuilding process when there’s competitive teams that would be interested in him.
nathan needs to be traded more so than santana i think i mean we are one decent CF away from being contenders this year if we held on to santana and traded nathan we would have a chance for the WS depending on how liriano does when he comes back
how about nathan for jay bruce? i know the reds just got cordero but their bullpen still isnt very good…
“nathan needs to be traded more so than santana i think i mean we are one decent CF away from being contenders this year if we held on to santana and traded nathan we would have a chance for the WS depending on how liriano does when he comes back”
We are NOT one piece away from being a contender.
Nice try though…
AJ Pesh said it best…why have a closer when we’ll struggle to be a .500 team.
overwhelming trade nathan feedback.. haha.. cant say i disagree…
i guess one big thing is the twins are going to be soo young with a trade of santana that my thinking is that it would be nice to have a closer that could come in and end the game..
but i gotta agree, trading nathan should be on the agenda..
Opening Day. Santana Gone
Who is the Twins Opening Day Starter???
which teams need a closer to compete? anyone have ideas on what the market is?
Ill bet its Slowey..
UNLESS liriano is 100%
ill take Slowey to take the mound Game one of 162
gobbledygookguy
atlanta, cubs, and the brewers for sure..
if we take the mets deal with all prospects can we expect the twins just to go for say some young infield prospects for nathan
Scott Baker opening day starter
didn’t the brewwers sign gagne?
hmm, yeah, i think the brewers did sign gagne…
i guess if he pitches like he did in texas its a good signing, but if he pitches like he did in boston then they still need a closer..
nathan for bill hall??
I vote Yes and No .. but unsure
Lion
Thanks for the laugh. Nathan for Jay Bruce? The Reds won’t even trade Bruce for Bedard but they are going to give him up for Nathan when they just gave $48 million to a closer? Thanks for the laugh this morning. Your trade proposal are asenine but at least you are a Twins homer.
My prediction for opening day starter would be Baker. He’s had the most experience of anyone on the staff, and started to really put it together last year.
The whole offseason is starting to take a toll on me..
we are losing to many “stars”, “franchise figures”
and when you think about opening day and not seeing Radke/Santana on the mound, Or hunter in CF or Nathan in the pen..
i dunno, its going to be a tough year..
As excited as i am to see the kids, i think i may be in center opening day cheering hunter as if he never left
you guys forget about the 4 first round pitchers we drafted in 04..
rainville : very good prospect comming through the farm…
waldrop :decent prospect to look at..
perkins :already in the majors….
fox : a little of a bust..
the first 3 are very good. fox is a work in progress..
also in the 05 draft..
3rd round: duensing..
hes a ace comming through the farm…
if he can make the roster this year..
rotation will be.
liriano
baker
duensing
slowey
boofy goofy! (maybe rainville)
The only teams that are going to compete that need a closer are the Braves, Indians, Tigers, and Cubs. I guess if the Twins waited until the deadline they might get some other teams that didn’t expect to compete. The flip side could also work against them though, those teams could find another closer.
I think the Cubs are the best match for Nathan though. I’m not sure what they would be willing to give up though.
jama,
i know it will never happen, but you know… its worth the laugh for the morning 
it was more fun then talking about the santana trade 
how about vitters and pie/marmol?
Nathan for Jay Bruce was pretty amusing. I like Bill Hall but why not go for the Ryan Braun instead? We could get a bidding war going between the Reds and the Brewers. Bruce vs. Braun.
Trade Nathan. We CAN afford him but why would we want to?
Baker is the opening day starter unless we somehow get Hughes from the Yanks.
this site has top 50 pitching and hitting prospects that is interesting:
http://www.minorleagueball.com/
i like lamb as our 3rd baseman though… i really think he could hit 30 homers in a twins uniform and being a regular day guy… if you want to trade to the brewers you go for prince fielder to be your dh duh!
Gobble, that is the best of last year… he writes the list before the season, and then he critiques himself at the end of the year… Sickels is a baseball nut second to none. You almost have to love the guy.
thats a neat one gobbledygookguy
so basically we trade a number 3 pitcher for a number 2 hitter? wow not bad for us.. young could be an amazing hitter.
Tyler.
Why should the Twins resign Nathan to a 3-4 year 27-44 million dollar deal when the Twins starting staff is so young?
This team is not going to contend, and Nathan could bring in valuable prospects for 2010 when this team is going to be good again.
I am not attacking you… just curious as to your reasoning.
No talks with Morneau? What is Bill Smith working on? Picking up mediocre, older players that won’t help the team?
lion
we are not getting Fielder.
I don’t see 30 in Lamb’s future, but I think he could hit 30 doubles and 20 homers, and that would make me pretty happy.
If Santana is traded, Slowey’s not going to be the opening day starter. It would be Baker assuming Liriano wont be quite ready to go or is in the bullpen.
Roundabout-
Glaus for Rolen. Rolen and the Blue Jays win. I read taht the Blue Jays are getting 4 million dollars of Rolen’s contract paid for him, and he’s the better player of the two when healthy. No steroids, and a really great glove. Glaus gives power, and is really good with steroids… so LaRussa should be able to relate with McGwire, and Canseco, and Ankiel…
No offense Roundabout, but it looks like the Cardinals are going to try and out steroid the Yankees.
I think all of the Santana options are fine:
1. Give him a 5 year extension
2. Trade him for Hughes, Melky, Marquez, (Igawa? Might be worth a gamble.)
3. Trade him for Ellsbury/Lowrie/Masterson
4. Trade him for Lester/Crisp/Lowrie/Masterson
5. Trade him for Gomez/Guerra/Mulvey/Humber or sub in F-Mart for Guerra.
I think all could work out. My current order of preference is 1-5-2-4-3. But like I said, all would be fine. All would help our club. The reason for this is we have the most valuable player possible we are dangling. We’ll do well however it works out.
And in no way am I conceding the 2008 season, regardless of the Santana result. Morneau and Mauer will play better this year than last, we will have a better offensive third baseman, a much better defensive shortstop, a potential superstar new outfielder, Kubel improving, and a young, rapidly improving rotation, with a potential ace returning from surgery. There are many reasons to expect improvement over last year.
AM-
You make me very optimistic for the trade scenarios and for the 08 season. Nicely done, especially considering how easy it’s become to get frustrated with this whole freaking process. One thing though, if we don’t get Guerra/Gomez/
AND Fmart in the same package, along with 2 of their pitchers, there’s no way we should deal w/the Mets. Unless we have no other choice and they’re the only team bidding for him. Than you just get as much as possible and move on.
looks like bill hall is moving to 3b and braun to lf. tony gwynn will be left out he’s not worth nathan and i don’t think gagne’s ego allows him to be a setup guy. imo nathan ends up with mets in 09 he’s a long island guy i think i read somewhere wagners contract is up after this yr. might not be much of a market for nathan until july.
Baker is the opening day starter, even if the Twins haul in Phil Hughes they’ll go with their in-house guy. Baker looked good at times last year but so did Boof in 06.
I suspect that Liriano won’t see major league hitting until May at the soonest and we’ll all be wondering where he is while Day or Kiesler starts in his place.
AM
i can agree with you on the optimism..
but my problem is this.. while the twins are improving, the rest of the division without a doubt got alot stronger as well..
cleveland is young and still improving,
detroit with willis, cabrera, renteria
white sox with cabrera as SS, swisher, and the royals are young and made subtle moves..
while the twins may or may not be better then they were last year, there is no doubt in my mind that the rest of the division also got better..
twins got young, but lost hunter.. so we will see if young can replace hunters offensive production..
and to perhaps lose a 2 time cy young winner will really weaker our starting staff.. we dont have a stopper in the rotation with johan gone.. but your right, if liriano comes back 100% healthy. he will be the stopper..
so there is room for optimism.. the twins will be a fun group to watch..
but the rest of the division really looks solid
Source: Yankees pull trade offer for Santana
[quote]
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3195926
For the second time this offseason, the Yankees have pulled their Phil Hughes-centered trade offer for Johan Santana off the table.
The Yankees, then, will not restart trade talks with the Twins unless Hank Steinbrenner has another change of heart, a baseball official with knowledge of the talks told 1050 ESPN Radio’s Andrew Marchand.
The Yankees’ desire Monday to turn their attention away from the two-time Cy Young winner leaves Boston and the New York Mets as Minnesota’s trade partners, the official told Marchand.
“We’re not desperate, so we’re not going to chase anything,” Steinbrenner told the New York Daily News in early January.
Multiple reports have speculated the Yankees’ offer includes pitcher Hughes, outfielder Melky Cabrera, pitching prospect Jeff Marquez and another prospect.
When asked about the Yankees’ package of players, Steinbrenner would not comment but did tell the Daily News that “it’s still the best one. And let’s face it, we’re the best able to handle the kind of [nine-figure extension] Santana will be after.”
It remains unclear of late if the Twins intend to trade Santana before the start of the 2008 season or hold onto him until the July trade deadline. Minnesota’s earlier offer to extend the left-hander’s contract by four years and $80 million was rejected.
Rick Anderson, the Twins’ pitching coach, wants to see an outcome as much as anyone.
“I wake up in the morning and hurry up and open up the paper to see if anything happened,” Anderson, who has tutored Santana since 2002, the first year his potential began to show, told The Associated Press.
Santana has been in Venezuela since the regular season ended, but he recently arrived in Fort Myers, Fla., to start his workouts.
In his first published comments this winter, Santana told the local newspaper that he didn’t know what to think about the situation.
“I’m a Minnesota Twin. That’s all I know. It’s up to them. Whatever they have to do is going to happen. It has nothing to do with me at all,” Santana told the News-Press of Fort Myers recently. “I said it from the beginning during the season last year, whatever will be the best for this team and this organization, I’ll agree with that.”
[/quote]
2007 team compared to 2008 team
2007 - mauer.. should be better, needs to stay healthy
1B - morneau.. needs to be more consistant.. cannot have long HR droughts
2B - castillo in 07, now harris .. harris will hit for more pop.. so offensively this is an upgrade.. lose some speed and defense. but castillo was losing range.. i give harris the nod cuz of his offense
SS - barlett in 07 now everett…. no doubt bartlett struggled some defensively.. everett appears to be a defensive gem.. but i give the nod to bartlett.. he is younger and can only improve.. offensively he is much better then everett.
3B - punto in 07 now lamb in 08 .. punto is a defensive wiz, lamb is more offensive.. i have to give the nod to lamb because of the offensive numbers he should put up.. but i wouldnt mind seend punto come in for late game defense
LF - kubel vs kubel/monroe i think if nothing else, we have another year of experience and we have a lefty/righty combo.. which will only help our team..
CF - hunter in 07 vs ??? who knows..
hunter will not be replacable.. solid clubhouse guy, class act, solid defense, solid offense.. we will not be able to replace him this year..
RF - cuddy vs cuddy/young we need a healthy cuddy and for him to return to his 2006 form.. young is a stud in the making.. so gotta go with cuddy/young combo.. even though i think young will be in left
DH - tyner in 07 - kubel/monroe/young..
hard to see this as not being an upgrade.. should have decent production in terms of the DH
so
C - i give us a +
1B - i give us a +
2B - i give us a +
SS - i give us a -
3B - i give us a +
LF - i give us a +
CF - I give us a -2
RF - i give us a +
rotation will be weak with a trade of johan and bullpen weaker with possible trade of santana.. so
SP - i give us a -
Bullpen - i give us a -
looks like our team is a +1
Patrick–
I agree it’s tough to watch this process unfold. However, I’m pleased with the way things are progressing for a number of reasons:
1. We should be very optimistic about Delmon Young. Not only for all his previous high rankings (from statheads and scouts alike), but for how quickly Bill Smith moved to get him when he saw the opportunity. A good sign.
2. Likewise, note how quickly Smith moved to get Everett (the morning after he was non-tendered.) Everyone needs to read the Fielding Bible/James article on Everett vs. Jeter. If Everett shows even a little bit of offense, his signing is going to turn into a steal.
3. The DYoung/Everett moves, put in context of the deliberate nature of the Santana talks, make me confident that Smith is getting us the best possible deal–even if it turns out to be a deal we have already heard. He hasn’t been blown away, or he would have have the move already. I think Joe C is right that an FMart/Gomez/Guerra deal would be a “let’s shake on it right now” kind of offer.
4. It’s fun being a Twins fan right now, because with Smith as GM, we can speculate about moves he will make to improve the club’s weaknesses—and he has shown that he is willing to make them. What was much more frustrating to me was watching Terry Ryan not make deals. (Atkins at the trade deadline last year might have been a difference-maker for another division title, in my opinion.)
It would be fun to have our team spending $100m+ on payroll, but it’s also nice to root for the Twins as they put together competitive and championship teams using good, cheap, young players, rather than hired stars.
Optimism never hurt, but let’s not delude ourselves. I have to agree (again) with BC and Todd Anthony. The ‘08 Twins are highly unlikely to contend. The division is improved over last year and the Twins have not significantly improved. With Santana, I think this team is 6, maybe 8, games better than last year, which won’t get it done in this division. Of course, everything in this post may be wrong . . .
I’m not in favor of trading Nathan but look at the facts:
Mauer - 24yrs old
Morneau - 26
Cuddy - 28
Kubel - 25
Young - 22
Harris - 27
Casilla - 23
Buscher - 26
Boofer - 26
Baker - 26
Liriano - 24
Neshek - 27
Guerrier - 29
Crain - 26
Slowey - 23
Perkins - 24
Reyes-30, Everett-30, Lamb-32 and Punto-30 are borderline old.
Nathan is 33. He looks like Grandpa compared to the rest. Unless he starts juicing over the next few years, his performance will probably start declining in 2010. I’m not in favor of trading him but there is no logical reason to keep him past 7/31 so…..bye, bye Joe.
(Sidenote….for some reason, Clemens performance started getting better in his mid to late 30’s…but I’m sure it wasn’t from the shots. )
Maybe this is too much too soon, but here is a list of 2009 MLB
Free AgentsCatchers
Michael Barrett (32)
Johnny Estrada (33)
Kenji Johjima (33)
Jason Kendall (35) - club option for ‘09; vests with 110 games played in ‘08
Paul Lo Duca (37)
Ivan Rodriguez (37)
David Ross (32)
Jason Varitek (37)
Gregg Zaun (38) - $3.75MM vesting option for ‘09; vests with 160 games played in ‘08
First basemen
Ben Broussard (32)
Carlos Delgado (37) - $16MM mutual option for ‘09 with a $4MM buyout
Nomar Garciaparra (35)
Jason Giambi (38) - $22MM club option for ‘09 with a $5MM buyout
Scott Hatteberg (39)
Kevin Millar (37)
Richie Sexson (34)
Mark Teixeira (29)
Second basemen
Mark Ellis (32)
Mark Grudzielanek (39)
Orlando Hudson (31)
Tadahito Iguchi (34)
Jeff Kent (41)
Felipe Lopez (29)
Mark Loretta (37)
Shortstops
Orlando Cabrera (34)
David Eckstein (34)
Adam Everett (32)
Rafael Furcal (31)
Cristian Guzman (31)
Cesar Izturis (29)
Felipe Lopez (29)
Edgar Renteria (33) - $11MM club option for ‘09 with a $3MM buyout
Juan Uribe (30)
Omar Vizquel (42) - $5.2MM club option for ‘09 with a $0.3MM buyout
Third basemen
Casey Blake (35)
Hank Blalock (28) - $6.2MM club option for ‘09 with a $0.25MM buyout
Joe Crede (31)
Nomar Garciaparra (35)
Troy Glaus (32) - $11.25MM player option for ‘09
Wes Helms (33) - $3.75MM club option for ‘09
Chipper Jones (37) - $8-11MM vesting option for ‘09
Left fielders
Moises Alou (42)
Garret Anderson (37) - $14MM club option for ‘09 with a $3MM buyout
Milton Bradley (31)
Pat Burrell (32)
Carl Crawford (27) - $8.25MM club option for ‘09 with $2.5MM buyout
Adam Dunn (29)
Cliff Floyd (36) - $3MM club option for ‘09 with a $0.25MM buyout
Raul Ibanez (37)
Jacque Jones (34)
Jason Michaels (33) - $2.6MM club option for ‘09
Craig Monroe (32)
Jay Payton (36)
Wily Mo Pena (27) - $5MM club option or $2MM player option for ‘09
Manny Ramirez (37) - $20MM club option for ‘09
Juan Rivera (30)
Center fielders
Rocco Baldelli (27) - $6MM club option for ‘09 with a $4MM buyout
Jim Edmonds (39)
Jacque Jones (34)
Mark Kotsay (33)
Right fielders
Bobby Abreu (35)
Casey Blake (35)
Milton Bradley (31)
Brian Giles (38) - $9MM club option for ‘09 with a $3MM buyout
Ken Griffey Jr. (39) - $16.5MM club option for ‘09 with a $4MM buyout
Vladimir Guerrero (33) - $15MM club option for ‘09 with a $3MM buyout
Jacque Jones (34)
DHs
Milton Bradley (31)
Pat Burrell (32)
Adam Dunn (29)
Jason Giambi (38) - $22MM club option for ‘09 with $5MM buyout
Vladimir Guerrero (33) - $15MM club option for ‘09 with a $3MM buyout
Raul Ibanez (37)
Manny Ramirez (37) - $20MM club option for ‘09
Juan Rivera (30)
Frank Thomas (41) - $10MM option for ‘09; vests with 376 PAs in ‘08
Jim Thome (38) - $13MM club option for ‘09 with $3MM buyout
Jose Vidro (34) - vesting option for ‘09
Starting pitchers
A.J. Burnett (32) - can opt out after ‘08 season
Paul Byrd (38)
Ryan Dempster (32)
Jon Garland (29)
Tom Glavine (43)
Orlando Hernandez (43)
Randy Johnson (45)
John Lackey (30) - $9MM club option for ‘09 with a $0.5MM buyout
Esteban Loaiza (37) - $7.5MM club option for ‘09 with a $0.375MM buyout
Braden Looper (34)
Derek Lowe (36)
Greg Maddux (43)
Pedro Martinez (37)
Matt Morris (34) - $9MM club option for ‘09 with a $1MM buyout
Jamie Moyer (46)
Mark Mulder (31) - $11MM club option for ‘09 with a $1.5MM buyout
Mike Mussina (40)
Brad Penny (31) - $8.75MM club option for ‘09 with a $2MM buyout
Oliver Perez (27)
Andy Pettitte (37)
Kenny Rogers (44)
C.C. Sabathia (28)
Johan Santana (30)
Curt Schilling (42)
Ben Sheets (30)
John Smoltz (42) - $12MM club option for ‘09
Tim Wakefield (42) - perpetual $4MM club option
Woody Williams (42) - $6.75MM club option for ‘09 with a $0.25MM buyout
Randy Wolf (32)
Closers
Joe Borowski (38)
Ryan Dempster (32)
Brian Fuentes (33)
Eric Gagne (33)
Trevor Hoffman (41)
Jason Isringhausen (36)
Todd Jones (41)
Brad Lidge (32)
Joe Nathan (34)
Al Reyes (38)
Francisco Rodriguez (27)
Rafael Soriano (29)
Middle relievers
Doug Brocail (42) - club option for ‘09
Juan Cruz (28)
Alan Embree (39) - $3MM club option for ‘09
Scott Eyre (37)
Kyle Farnsworth (33)
Aaron Fultz (35)
Tom Gordon (41) - $4.5MM club option for ‘09 with a $1MM buyout
LaTroy Hawkins (36)
Matt Herges (39) - club option for ‘09
Bob Howry (35)
Steve Kline (36)
Brandon Lyon (29)
Damaso Marte (34) - $6MM club option for ‘09 with a $0.25MM buyout
Guillermo Mota (35)
Will Ohman (31)
Darren Oliver (38)
Juan Rincon (30)
Russ Springer (40)
Mike Stanton (42) - $2.5MM club option for ‘09 with a $0.5MM buyout
Mike Timlin (43)
Salomon Torres (37) - $3.75MM club option for ‘09 with a $0.3MM buyout
David Weathers (39)
Dan Wheeler (31)
Kerry Wood (32)
MH
Good analysis, but Young will likely start in Left Field, and Kubel/Monroe at DH. Also, you didn’t list DH (+ or -).
I would agree with most of your listing, except:
CF will be better than a -2. Hunter is replacable. If nothing else, Pridie will be there, at better than -2. Maybe -1.
Bullpen, if all are healthy, will be a 0. Virtually the same, unleass Nathan is traded. Then a -
SS is a 0; Bartlett’s offense will negate Everett’s defense. A wash.
Looks like team is a Plus 4.
Only one on that list which stands out for me is Rocco Baldelli. Decent player and probably reasonably priced.
You’re right it is too early.
we dont need pitchers out of either trade (nathan and santana) we have more then enough in the farm.. we need outfielders (from santana trade with mets) and infielders (from the nathan trade)
we have more then enough potential aces in the farm….
Hawk
agreed.. not many on that list stand out..
my biggest hope would be perhaps orlando cabrera or furcal..
furcal has declined but would be a good lead off option
and who knows, maybe now with Bill Smith and with such a decline in the team payroll this year, that the team will start to be bigger players in the FA market.
but there really are not any pitchers out there that i would PAY. not with the way pitchers are being paid..
but perhaps bring in Dunn to DH and see how blalock fairs.. lamb is more of a quick fix for our 3rd base problem.. i like the lamb addition, but id also like to see a nice long term solution..
I’ve wondered if the team frowns on FA due partly to the “draft pick” aspect. In other words, if we sign a free agent, we potentially lose draft picks, the lifeblood of a team’s farm system.
oh, and a comment about the Yankees apparently pulling out of the Johan sweepstakes..
I do not believe this will lessen the offers for Johan, but i do believe this is fantastic news for the Sox, and for some reason i think it gives them more leverage in the Johan deal..
I think that If the yankees all of a sudden Change their mind and want back in on the Johan sweepstakes, then Bill Smith has soo much leverage over Hank its ridiculous..
Smith is tired of Hank and the Yankees, so unless they would come in with a much improved trade package, then Smith will simply say no.
Theo knows what he is doing, he has a good offer for Johan and i think the yanks will react if their is talk that johan is going to the sox.. plus, if the sox know the yanks our out of it.. who says they wont do a minor upgrade in their offer to simply get the deal done..
Not sure, But i think with the Yanks pulling out i have a hunch things may improve..
crazy thinking.. i know
i think since the yankees are out that bill smith will just say “sorry hank im tired of you… bye” and the mets will come in and win a trade vs the yankees.. something they havnt done in a very long time.. they will add martinez and get this deal done.. though i wish they could take humber out and do pelfrey instead. pelfrey looks like he needs a change in teams..
wheres the news today saying “the twins have just traded santana to the mets for a boatload of prospects..
fernando martinez gomez guerra mulvey/humber pelfrey” ?
IF the Twins included Span would the Mets be more likely to add both outfield prospects?
imo anything reported in the east coast media has to be taken with a grain of salt. i hope he goes to the mets. be good for him and better for baseball.
i see tampa’s payroll may reach 45m and when santana leaves that’s about what the twins will be. now that’s sad!
MH thank you for that awesome list man.
Oh the dreams…
Sign Furcal to be our SS, Crawford to be our LF, Ben Sheets to be our ace…
And wasn’t Vlad Guerrero a player option after 2008? as well so 2009 might not even be an option…
I swear I remember reading a big article on the Red Sox and Yankees and Vlad the Impaler in 2009 to replace either Manny in Boston, or Abreu in NY, and how he could be the 2nd 30 million dollar man.
Tampa is going to be a tough team to kick around next year.
Twins fans should really embrace our Floridian brothers…
That team won’t win the division, but it could easily come in 3rd, and will be a pain the butt to the Red Sox and the Yankees.
if the twins add span the mets better be replacing humber with pelfrey and add martinez…
if the twins add span they’ll probably take a player out of the deal!
Why would the Mets want Span? He’s garbage IMO.
Martinez/Gomez/Heilman or Maine or Guerra/mid level prospect
Is that a fair deal? I think so.
Maybe a deal could be worked out if it was Santana and Blackburn for Guerra/Heilman/Martinez/gomez.
That would be as awesome as Rudy
Nobody wants Span
instead of blackburn why not swarzak and pridie? his a young pitching prospect? trade thim and santana. He is one of our best prospects so then mets have 1 pitching prospect one young outfielder in the farm system
you know keeping santana and nathan isn’t the worst case sceniro say we keep then up till the trade deadline well maybe if we are not contending we can package those 2 together in a trade we would get so much back in return right then too
good point justin. Pirdie would be a better option.
With your point on packaging Nathan and Santana, it is a good idea in theory, but Santana will never allow to be traded by the deadline in my opinion, (or as you hip bloggers say IMO).
liondragon
Fox is not a bust. Had arm/shoulder surgery and came back decently last year. Should move up with more confidence in the wing.
Rainville also should be better, second year back from surgery.
Waldrop needs to step up. Very ordinary at FM in 2007.
Glaus for Rolen? Sounds like a “change of scenery” type of trade.
I know who should be traded.
Keeping Santana is definitely not the worst case scenario–it’s the best. I think, with an improved lineup backing him up, team results in his starts would be more like they were in 2006 (27-8) than they were in 2007 (17-16).
We still have ways to get a decent CF option without trading Santana. Crisp, Pridie, maybe Lofton, maybe Delmon. None ideal (Crisp would be best), but not terrible.
Trading Nathan, however, is worth it, if there is a decent return to be had.
Packaging Nathan and Santana in the same trade is a bad idea. If I recall, Nathan only has a year ledt (Twins picked up his 08 option early this offseason).
So whoever gets Santana and Nathan would need to turn around and get them signed in a hurry. We know what Santana’s worth, and I have a feeling Nathan won’t be cheap either.
Considering the Twins are essentially giving the team a guarantee that they’ll win 20% of their games (Santana + Nathan is lethal with the right lineup behind them), there would be quite a bit expected back (and rightfully so).
But no team will sell the farm for one year of both of those players. And I don’t think many teams (save the East Coast) would be able to afford new contracts for BOTH in the same offseason.
The Twins are better off splitting the two and maximizing their trade value sepreately. You can get 3-4 for Santana and 1-2 for Nathan. But I doubt you’d get 4-6 for both.
And I don’t count what Detroit did. That was just stupid to give up that much.
AM, if the Twins aren’t able to sign Santana beyond 07…then they need to trade him now.
Detroit and Cleveland are turning into the powerhouses of the Central. The Twins are going young so they can hit the ground running when the new stadium opens.
But Santana on this team doesn’t make that big a difference. It’s very unlikely they’ll make the playoffs this season (unless you think the lineup can somehow matchup evenly with Detroit and Cleveland for the Division crown, or that they can somehow outclass the Yankees/Boston or Oakland/LAA for the Wildcard)
My guess….once the big boys start putting on the uni’s in February, things will start shaking up more in the Santana situation.
I was reading the ESPN article about Oaklands trade of Kotsay and it mentioned that it’s expected that they will weigh offers for SP Joe Blanton and RP Huston Street.
What do you think of making an offer for either or both? Blanton’s an innings hog like Silva and Street could become are closer.This would free up Nathan to be traded. I would be especially interested in Blanton.Oakland is trading for prospects…what could we offer?
Starting rotation can be chosen from the following options and combinations:
1.If we keep Santana:Santana/Liriano/Blanton/Baker/Perkins/Bonser or Slowey
2.Trade with the Yankees:Hughes/Liriano/Blanton/Baker/Perkins/Bonser or Slowey
3.Trade for Ellsbury :Liriano/Blanton/Baker/Perkins/Bonser or Slowey
4.Trade for Lester:Liriano/Blanton/Lester/Baker/Perkins/Bonser or Slowey
5.Trade for the Mets that include Martinez/Gomez and Heilman:Liriano/Blanton/Baker/Perkins/Bonser or Slowey
I’m not sure what it would take to get Blanton. One thing that popped into my mind …would include a trade with the Mets as stated above. Then offer Gomez in a package for Blanton. Make Heilman the closer and include Nathan in a trade for…BC you will like this…Pie?
call me crazy.
but now with the yankees out of it.
i see a boston package of
ellsbury/lester/lowrie/masterson coming to minnesota for johan and perhaps rincon.
i realize boston is in perfect position to not have to give in and give the twins what they want.. but even tho they are not bidding against the yankees anymore, im sure boston would LOVE to get johan and not allow the yankees to have a chance at him Via Free Agency..
it really came down to boston and the yankees not wanting to get into a bidding war.. neither team wants to give up its young players.. and both teams have alot of prospects to give up..
plus boston knows that all the mets have are prospects.. and while jose reyes will not be coming to minnesota.. i think boston would still love to get johan.. remember.. they probably have schilling coming off the books after this year, possibly manny.
alright. ill put the kool aid away
I’m not sure how their package would impact the Twins, but I think Santana going to the Mets is a win for us Sox fans. As great as Santana is, the Mets still wouldn’t scare me to stop us from repeating (compared to Indians, Tigers, Yankees - AL) and we continue to develop our young players with that beautiful term “payroll flexibility” to fill holes (like Manny) in upcoming years.
Just as an insight from Boston - Everyone I know here is hoping the rumors that the Ellsbury deal is OFF the table are true, but that may just be an indication of how much we like watching the guy play (pretty damn exciting) and fans have been wrong before, I guess.
“a baseball official with knowledge of the talks”
…………….
This is my favorite source for Johan info. There is nothing new in that Yankees are out AGAIN story, just another media joe trying to goose the process.
I don’t believe the Yankees are out of the Santana talks. Hank & Hal are tired of all the NY speculation so they “calm the waters” by saying they are out of it…..but only until they have time to start talking again later this month.
I just got a phone call from a friend of mine in Boston who works in the Sox front office. He said Boston today offered the Twins Ellsbury, Lowrie, Lester, and Masterson for Santana and Punto. However the Twins refused to follow through with the deal when Boston asked for Nick Punto in addition to Santana.
I feel that Hank backing out of the talks means absolutely nothing. Coming from anyone else I think it would really hurt the Twins. Since it’s Hank, not a big deal. He could jump right back in the talks durnig his next mood swing.
Regardless, I can’t help but feel that Bill Smith is getting closer and closer to overplaying his hand. I don’t want to accept a bad deal by being impatient, but I also don’t want to be forced into accepting a bad deal because we waited too long. I know there’s the possibility we keep him and either a)trade him at the deadline or b)let him walk and take the picks, but to me, those are both bad deals.
I think BS has handled it well so far. It’s just starting to get to the point where he needs to do something.
Refused Punto???? Is it April 1st today??
I think Punto is a really valuable player. He may end up being the center fielder for the Twins because he is a fast runner and a really good hitter. He can play every infield position. He can be the back up for Morneau at first from time to time also.
“rthomasson” should read “rthomascraigson”
I heard the Twins are expecting Punto to return to form and hit third in the lineup and play second base. The hitting instructor for the Twins expects him to hit around .340 for the season. You can’t blame the team for not wanting to trade him for a bunch of lousy prospects from the Red Sox. Punto is an absolute magician with the glove and the bat.
rthomasson - LOL!!! That’s a good one! I bet you actually got someone with that….
no way can we trade punto who do we have to lay down a sacrifice bunt if he’s gone? i think he could pitch an inning or 2 if needed also.
Sbarger is really “craig” in disguise.
Punto’s real asset to the team is his ability to frighten the opponents in the other dugout during fights on the field. Punto is one tough S.O.B.
As mentioned already,these GM,s are just feeding the media machine.No reponsible GM would ever let the media know exactly what possible trades are on the table.There is a reason that website is called MLB rumors. because that.s all they are rumors.It’s not like .they are under oath with a perjury conviction possible
someone throw rthomasson a life jacket…ahh come to think of it …cancel that….
Lousy prospects?
You call Lester, Ellsbury, Masterson and Lowrie not good? That gets to show you how little baseball knoweledge you have.
ok lester stinks ellsbury will do crapy if hes not in fenway and lowrie… i dont want another infield prospect thats ok.. we have enough of those.. as for masterson…… hes not worth santana
christina,
their good but not GREAT. we want great players for santana not players who we already have in the farm…
I think Lowrie could be a helluva infielder; Masterson, from what I’ve read and heard projects to be late-innings guy…I’m torn between that deal (with Lester or Ellsbury) and a projected Mets deal that could net us 4-6 guys.
It just seems to me that old Bill is busier working on a way to sign and KEEP Johan. He knows what offers are on the table. Alot of time has passed and none of them have gotten any better. I don’t think they will either. Bill has to know this. He knows that he could be losing ground by waiting so long. He might be a rookie GM, but he has been around for long enough to know what is going on.
Thus, the only reason this is taking so long, must be that he is working on a way to keep him here!!
At least that is what I am hoping.(although probably not true)
Christina-
don’t listen to liondragon. Read the post carefully and you’ll see that whoever wrote it was joking.
“I heard the Twins are expecting Punto to return to form and hit third in the lineup and play second base. The hitting instructor for the Twins expects him to hit around .340 for the season. You can’t blame the team for not wanting to trade him for a bunch of lousy prospects from the Red Sox. Punto is an absolute magician with the glove and the bat.”
Batting 3rd and expected to hit .340? It’s sarcasm. The Sox deal, IMO (and others as well) remains the best.
metsblog.com made a good point. Look at the way Hank worded his statement. “The Phil Hughes-centered package has been taken off the table”. Does that mean that there’s another package on the table that isn’t centered around Hughes? Cano maybe?
i’m sorry but I don’t think Ellsbury is lousy. I just wish that the Twins will accept the mets deal then we can move on with the promising red sox players and see what they can do. I rather have Ellsbury with the Red Sox than trade him away.
The Yankees probably offered Ian Kennedy, Tabata, Jackson on another deal. I would doubt that they offered Cano.
Blanton To Stay Put?
MLB.com’s Jim Molony talked to an A’s source who expects Joe Blanton to stay put and be Oakland’s Opening Day starter. The offers so far must not have been encouraging.
We haven’t really heard the specifics of any Blanton offers. The closest we came to learning Billy Beane’s asking price was on December 20th, when Buster Olney said:
Have heard that the Mets could land Joe Blanton with this package: center fielder Carlos Gomez, pitcher Aaron Heilman and pitcher Kevin Mulvey.
The last paragraph is not good for twins fans..
even if Blanton is no Johan, the mets want and need pitching.. and blanton could be a quick fix
Uh, but do you think the Mets would opt for Blanton if they could have Santana? No way…
There isn’t a Red Sox fan alive who thinks Ellsbury is lousy. I don’t either and I’d love to get him in a deal, but I also don’t think he’s the player that The Nation thinks he is. Regardless, nobody on this blog seriously called the Sox prospects lousy. Somebody did say it, but they were joking.
I don’t think the Mets are dumb enough to make that trade for Blanton so I’m not worried.
MH,
I think the Twins could use Blanton. So, if we trade Santana that includes Martinez,Gomez,Heilman and Mulvey. Then, we could turn around and trade Gomez,Heilman and Mulvey for Blanton? Do we have any substitution that we could offer instead of Heilman?
What do you think?
Personally, I don’t think we make a Santana deal for young players/prospects then turn them around in another deal. I just don’t see it, but again it’s one man’s opinion.
So let me get this straight: Red Sox Nation will be UP IN ARMS if their favorite club acquires Santana for Ellsbury? The notion is almost laughable…
I think if you acquire the best pitcher in the game, hands-down over Sabathia, Beckett, Peavy, etc, you’ll learn to live with it.
TA.. no i don’t, but do i think the mets are willing to take a real hard look at that.. yes..
heck, if the mets wanted to, they should trade gomez,heilman,mulvey for blanton
and trade reyes, pelfrey, guerra for johan.. mets would be a favorite in the NL
haha.. but enough about that
Colombo..
i think the twins could use blanton as well.. Problem is, i dont think the twins have the pieces to trade to oakland. oakland would want young pitching and the twins need to keep slowey, baker, and the rest of the kids..
But, like i said when Haren was still with oakland.. I think the twins should look into a 3 team trade with the Twins, Mets, A’s..
johan goes to mets
blanton, fmart, guerra to the twins
gomez,mulvey heilman to the A’s
Heck, sounds fair to me
No more implausible trade scenarios: in other words, no more mention of Jose Reyes in a deal for Johan Santana. I think Mets’ Management has definitely ruled that out. Second, I just don’t see the Mets trading potential Santana-trade pieces to acquire Blanton. I suppose Bill Smith, et al. could have told Omar Minaya, et al. that his package will NEVER be good enough to acquire Santana. But I don’t think we’re seeing that here. I think IF the Mets trade for Blanton, then we’ll know they’re not players in a Johan deal.
Red Sox nation would be UP IN ARMS if Ellsbury gets traded, but just because we’re attached to the guy (not a good basis for trade decisions, which is why we have Theo.) When we traded Hanely Ramirez even though we knew we were going to need a SS it kind of sucked, but we landed Josh Beckett so it turned alright, I guess you could say.
The real consideration with this from my perspective in Boston is that any trade for Santana is tantamount to a posting fee since it will undoubtedly be followed with a huge contract committing 120-150 million to one player.
I know this is obvious, but all the Twins have is their control of Santana for one, thin year (and maybe just until the season starts) and I agree with some of the posters here that at this point the longer this strings out the LESS the Twins will land for Santana.
Maybe Lester and Ellsbury won’t have a season like they did last year (clinching game of the world series anyone?), but I’d be more than happy to see the Red Sox start the regular season with our roster now (at the same time saving money for future signing to replace Manny, etc.) and have nothing happen on the Santana front.
Can you say the same for the Twins?
Tate
I guess from a Twins Fan perspective..
I would like Santana traded before the Season Starts.
But, if the Twins can Hang their Hat on something.. This is it..
IF Liriano comes back at 100% and he returns to his 2006 form..
The Twins have perhaps the Best 1-2 punch in the game… Now, will the offense pick it up? gee, gotta hope so..
but a Healthy Liriano, in the same rotation as Johan.. Could mean special things..
So, while i want Johan traded, I would not be upset if we have a repeat of the 2006 season with liriano/johan..
cuz that was a dominant tandem
And perhaps that part of the reason why johan has not been traded yet.. they want to see how healthy liriano is, and how soon he will be ready
MH,
I was thinking along the same lines except I would like to keep Heilman.
Mets-Santana
Twins-Blanton,Martinez,Guerra and Heilman
Oakland-Gomez,Mulvey and ?
We could make Heilman are closer and we could then trade Nathan…maybe for Pie?
I think we all need to dial down the expectations on Liriano. 1.) he’s coming off Tommy John surgery; 2.) he might not be able to contribute to this squad AT ALL before June-July.
So all these people that think we’re going to have a lethal 1-2 punch with Santana and Liriano need to come back to reality.
how about nathanto the cubs for vitters and prospect?
The Mets players aren’t anything special. Even if we get all 5, the Red Sox deal is still way better.
colombo..
perhaps that could work..
i keep hearing from bloggers in here that heilman is a clubhouse cancer..
so im not sure how much i want him..
but i think the twins need to look into it.. if they haven’t already
MH: no offense to your post regarding Liriano. You’re a valuable contributor to these sites…my disdain for those who favor holding onto Santana to team with Liriano is directed at the truly naive.
MH
What your saying does make sense, but the waiting game there could be a dangerous one.
With two guys with the talent of Liriano and Santana I can understand why you’d want to see if they can bopth put it together for you, but not trading Santana before the season starts seems like a big gamble to me.
I think for that to make sense you would have to actually commit to adding some more payroll and saying, “We’re going for it all right now!” You have to tell me, though, are you really close enough to do that?
TA
come on man..
i hate reality!
i have been a little off today.. but geez, reality bites
Tate: I’d be curious to see a poll querying Twins fans what their desired outcome would be regarding the Johan situation. I think primarily, fans would like to see us resign him; secondarily, I think we would like to see us trade him before spring training; and lastly, hold onto him and “make a run” at ‘08.
MH,
BC ,said a while back, he wants to be a starter and that’s the friction between Randolph and Heilman?
Tate: this squad is not close to competing; sorry to say that, but too many holes, primarily in the infield as well as CF, a couple of bullpen holes, and maybe in the starting rotation.
I’m torn on Santana; primarily, I want to see us sign him to an extension. On the other hand, I think we could acquire some valuable building blocks for ‘10 or so. But I DO NOT want to see is to hold onto him going into the ‘08 season without a contract extension. HORRIBLE mistake…
The question is: would Twins fans rather see us 1.) hold onto him for one year, accrue two draft picks; 2.) trade him and acquire pieces…
That seems to be the question at hand.
Todd Anthony,
If we can’t sign him it’s 2.) trade him and acquire pieces.
Columbo: that’s what I think too…I just think having Santana talk hanging over the team’s heads throughout ‘08 will be bad (like with Torii last year).
In my informally polling In Red Sox nation I can tell you that
1. NO ONE wants to see Ellsbury go in a trade.
2. We would begrudgingly let Lester go, but would be upset that you don’t value him as much as we do. (To say he may be the next Any Petite is not as crazy as it sounds)
3.And in both counts (deals) we’d tell you to expect more than you think out of Coco since there is no substitute for watching him defend on an everyday basis even if his plate appearances frustrate the hell out of you (oh, and they do).
Then again, I’m convinced that we Boston fans have a little too much invested emotionally to keep a straight head about these things. There is a lot of trust for Theo here and I think he makes a fair evaluation of value (talent added AND price deducted) and usually sticks with that.
That seems like the decision you have with Santana. What kind of future (next 5 years) do you envision under the different scenarios. If you are not going to be able to win while he’s here (even if you can get him to sign an extension) can you at least have his going push you in the right direction?
Aaron Heilman wants to start; Mets and manager WIllie Randolph want him as a 7th-8th inning guy. Heilman has voiced his dissatisfaction with that role for something like two years. I’ve never read or heard anything in NY that he was a “clubhouse cancer.”
And his attitude certainly didnt cause the Mets collapse last year.
It’s about time the Twins dust-off some has-been…Luis Gonzalez, Kenny Lofton, any other guy that’s make $4M and get hurt after a week. Why not just get Rickey henderson out of retirement and that’ll solve all of the CF problems. That’ll be the type of roster news we get next, not Santana.
rondell white is still available!
If the If’s fall into place, the twins can compete with the current roster. Detroit and Cleveland both have as many if’s to be answered.
Let’s just take the Ellsbury offer and get it over with. I am not a fan at all of the Mets offer, especially without F-Mart
Roundabout,
Thanks for the info regarding Heilman.If the Twins do trade with the Mets I’m hoping that it would include him.
Ellsbury roughly equals Span.
Ellsbury hit .353 in 116 AB for Boston. So what? Augie Ojeda hit .339 in 59 AB for the Twins.
Jon Lester has pitched 144 major league innings as a starter. Big deal.
craig what can you get for morneau?
i thought you loved span?
craig - no guarantees in baseball for sure (and no crying), but the only thing I have to add is actually having watched every 1 of Ellsbury’s AB’s and the kid is something special.
I think it was when he scored from second on a routine past ball when I said to myself, “whoa, this is not your normal flash in the pan.”
The fact that he performed so well in the World Series (something that is absolutely crucial in Boston where others have melted under the spotlight) sealed his high standing in the eyes of Sox fans.
Craig
you don’t know nothing about baseball!! Ellsbury is the next Mickey Mantle and Lester is being compared to Randy Johnson. thats why i wouldn’t trade them for Santana(aka Garbage man).
Boston is the new TITLE TOWN U.S.A. Redsox, Patriots, Celtics, thanks for Garnett Minnesota you don’t deserve him anyway!!!!! Also thanks for David Ortiz and Randy Moss.
Boston should keep their good young players. They have plenty of starting pitching for 2008. They can once again consider obtaining Santana at the end of the season when he’s a free agent.
In 9-10 months teams can sign Santana and only lose a draft pick. Are teams so impatient that they can’t just wait a few months? Isn’t waiting just a little worth saving all those good young prospects?
I think the Yankees have come to their senses, Boston should as well.
The Celtics haven’t won anything since 1986, Beantown, so don’t include them in the TITLE TOWN chest-thumping. And Elssbury as the next Mickey Mantle? Sigh.
Columbo, I think you and TA are absolutely on the money with the “trade Johan for pieces” scenario. Draft choices are too much of a crap shoot.
The Twins absolutely can compete in 08 if they hang on to Santana. Their only real hole is CF. BS has done well at upgrading 3b, DH/LF and 2b with solid players (as opposed to horrible players). Liriano will by key, but for those who say he won’t contribute much you need to realize he had surgery a long time ago and many who have come back and struggled did so much earlier. He is just as likely to be a big contributor from day 1 as not.
It may be a pipe dream, but I think we can be good to great for the next 5 years if
1. Sign santana
2. Commit boof and perkins to the pen and let them compete in 08 with neshek, crain and guerrier for the 09 close role (those 5 should make up a top bullpen for years)
3. Hang on to nathan till the deadline. If we’re out of it then trade him for a good CF prospect or other position player - if we’re in it then roll the dice nd take the 2 picks.
i would kinda like to see perkins in a starting role but i do agree with putting boof in the pen he seems like at most he can handle 3 innings then he blows up. The only problem is pohlad wont put his pocket change out there to sign santana. I mean the guy is a multi-billionaire im sure 20-25 million a year for 6 years wont kill him and he is making 20 million a year from this twins team and will go up in 2010 with the new stadium come on pohlad bite the bullet for 2 years.
Justin, you used exactly the right word. Mr. Pohlad “won’t” extend Santana. That is much different than “can’t.”
ellsbury, masterson,lowrie, bowden, just pull the trigger, mets prospects havent even started to shave yet. just take the best offer, so we can plug our gap in center field and start rocking towards the mlb draft. season may be long and sad for me, as tears grow w/o the best pitcher in baseball.
Forget Santana. What are we going to do about locking up Punto before he becomes a free agent after next year?
If the Twins are a business why should Pohlad be expected to take a loss and personally pay Santana a bunch of money if it’s not profitable? That’s just bad business that will lead to cuts elsewhere (i.e. Morneau, Cuddy, Mauer, etc). It’s sad but it’s the reality of the game, the Twins don’t pull in enough money to keep superstars.
Beantown.
I like Ellsbury a lot, but to say he’s the next Mickey Mantle? He might not hit 15 homers if he was hitting from 2nd base. 15… not 50. 15 homers is a monsterous output from Ellsbury at this point in his career.
I think he is much more of a Kenny Lofton or a Willie McGee kind of lead off hitter (thank god he’s not as ugly as ET McGee, or children would cry at the games)…
I am going to stand my ground that the Ellsbury idea is still the best trade, and think that the Mets package of 5 prospects both OF, Guerra, and Pelfry plus another prospect… is the 2nd best deal, and then the Lester deal.
I still put the Yankees offer as the bottom of the barrel because I think marquez is at least 2-3 years away, Cabrera is a mediocre level outfielder I would put Cuddyer as a B- outfielder and Cabrera as a C outfielder in my mind… I don’t want a C centerfielder!
And Hillgross or whatever… the Leadoff hitter of the future that some have called him will be on pace to be there with Revere who is our leadoff hitter of the future. Hillgross is a Jeff Cirillo type ball player.
Lowrie is going to be a GREAT hitting middle infielder that isn’t going to be terrible defensively.
Masterson I still say projects to be a very good middle reliever, Ellsbury is a Lofton/ET McGee kind of guy, and Bowden/Kalish/Moss…
Bowden provides more minor league pitching, Kalish a very solid Kevin Mench/Rusty Greer kind of outfielder, and Damion Moss… is a solid backup at this point in time… strikes out way too much for 15-20 homer pop.
for those saying we have to get a Lester or a Hughes… they are not trusting our farm system which is loaded with top notch starting pitchers.
Sosa, Dunesing, Swarzack, Robertson, Manship… all project to be top of the rotation starters… Blackburn looked amazing in fall league, and his interview was fantastic on MLB.com… he seems to have a very good head on his shoulders. Slowey knows how to pitch, and will improve. Chubby Boof has amazing stuff, if he can get under 400 lbs, and grow up. Baker showed signs of the lightbulb turning on. With this team atleast two years away getting this team’s younger pitchers to make up the veteran leadership for the rotation when we can compete.
It’s not about giving up on 2008, it’s about a realistic view of when this team will be most likely to compete.
Keeping Santana will dam up the financials, and will hamper the team from getting the players that it needs to fill key positions.
but pohlad promised a raise in payroll by 2010 up 90-100 million robert right now we are at 63 million and if we trade nathan before the season starts 57 million will be the payroll so 77 million for this year? same budget we had last year and mauer is signed to 2011 so we are fine there. That leaves Cuddy and Morneau, why not bit the bullet and have a 93 payroll next year dont have to resign them till next year
bc,
dont forget about rainville, waldrop, fox…
Beause that won’t happen Justin. Do you really expect Pohlad to “Bite the bullet” and just take a loss on the season when signing Santana isn’t even probably the wise thing to do? Twins payroll is in line with what it should be based on their income. It is in line percentage-wise with most other teams.
trade for Ellsbury.
robert from a PR standpoint it is a smart thing to do, fans werent happy to see hunter go (which was the right thing to do) the fan base feels they cant trust pohlad to keep people here which may mean a decline in ticket sales especially if they go in without santana cuz people know we wont be competitive without santana anyways so either way giving santana a contract or trading him he is gonna lose money better idea to sign him till 2014. have a product on the field so the fans have a reason to go to games to watch a team that will compete now and years to come
why should we as fans sit here and just be reserved to the fact santana is gone we are the costumers we are what pohlad makes money on if i could i would try to get the whole state of minnesota to boycott the twins this season if they trade santana and no one go to games to watch a sub-.500 team. then pohlad will atleast know he made a huge mistake by not gaining any money.
Bc
If the Yankees added that Wordkeeper or what ever his name is woudld they be first on your trade list?
I think the yankee fan and brian Cashman are in love with Phil Hughes. They see a pitcher who when healthy was throwing 96mph with nasty movement and wicked curveball. Most fans see him and dont think he will be a bust like some other hyped pitchers. So thats why they really dont want to make the trade. I think they feel the same about Ian Kennedy whos stuff and smarts make some scouts wonder if he is more of a gred maddux pitcher or mussina when he was younger. And then there is Joba. All three are under 23 and could be part of something special. So heres my 2 trade proposals: I give the Twins Melky, Ross Olendorf, Jeff Marquez, Austin jackson and Brett Gardner (He with 60 stolen bases) Or I trade Cano straight up for Johan Santana.
It’s a huge chasm between the minors and the major leagues. Fact is, aside from Santana there isn’t a starting pitcher in the Twins organization who has ever done much of anything.
All of those “projected” top of the rotation starters in the minors could easily amount to nothing at all. I’ve never seen a “projection” get a major league hitter out yet.
If the Twins had kept Silva and Garza, they would at least look like they had a chance. Silva can toss 200 innings and Garza had the best arm in the organization. Incredible stuff.
Bill Smith blew it by losing those two pitchers. Nevertheless, any team with Johan Santana cannot be entirely ruled out, though the Twins are now a long shot for 2008. If the Twins trade Santana, turn out the lights because the party is over.
Dan.
No… an A ball closer is a nice THROW IN, not anything that would prompt me to think more of the trade unless all things were equal.
Craig…
Every out you’ve ever seen in person or on tv, or heard idiots like John Gordon, and Dan Gladden babble on about in between worthless pointless motorcycle stories, and talks about John’s trips on off days around the state…
Every single one of those came from a projection.
Cuddyer was projected to be a 2nd baseman that failed and moved. Morneau was a catcher projected to be a 1st baseman because of his power, and Mauer was projected to be a man until he started hitting those weak sister popouts to Leftfield once a game in between the occasional double play ball to SS or the called 3rd strike..
Johan was a projection, or we wouldn’t have ever gotten him.
You see how much talent a player, and and you evaluate them not only on the numbers but how they handle pressure sitautions throughout their minor league careers so you can project how they may do, and compare their style of pitching, and array of pitching with those that have come before them.
So Craig… basically that’s all baseball ever has been is pojections, and speculations…
I will agree with you Craig… they shouldn’t have traded Garza.
Bonser, Dunesing, Slowey, and Blackburn. I’d have given up all four before in one deal before I gave up Garza.
But that’s just me. I see a very special talent in that kid. If he gets his mind right he could be an 17-20 game winner.
I’ve seen so many “can’t miss” prospects flop over the years. Projecting and speculating is fun, but has little connection with what a player is able to do in the major leagues.
liondragon,
We covered this before with Revere.
Vitters cannot be traded this soon after being picked in the draft last June.
I have a feeling the Twins will trade Johan to Mets for Gomez OR Fmart, Guerra, Pelfrey & 2 or 3 prospects of lesser known reputations. The timing will be right for TwinsFest. Fmart is Mets top position prospect & Guerra is their top pitching prospect. Pelfrey can help Twins this year. 2 or 3 other prospects will be gravy when compared to just 2 draft picks. The Twins like to think their scouts can find diamonds in the rough. (See Liriano & Ortiz as examples). Mets would still have one top outfield prospect for backup & most of their ready or close to ready MLB pitching. Everybody wins. The best kind of trade. Oh yeah, Johan would not haunt Twins in NL. Carl will be happy to save payroll on Johan & can sell lots of tickets at Twinsfest promoting all the young new players. Twins prospect to Boston for Crisp (Sox spin off payroll & gain prospect). Crisp holds down CF & lead off spot until Pridie or Revere is ready. Nathan traded for best talent by trade deadline. Anyway, thats what my crystal ball shows.
BC, what are you smoking? The Twins will lose 90 games with that rotation. The line-up is reaonable assuming we get a CF but you don’t have a single pitcher who has ever won 10 games in the majors. The Twins are great at scouting pitchers but to expect this group to compete next year without a leader is nuts. Maybe 2-3 years from now.
The Garza trade was even. Young has the potential to be an all-star and they needed his bat with Torii gone. Both teams came out well. If they want to compete this year or next, they have to take either Hughes or Lester and hope those guys hold up and show up. I prefer the Mets deal because we don’t see Johan until October and F-Mart is ready about when this yeoung staff comes around. F-Mart, Cuddyer and Young e years form now is a top-ed outfield.
Pitchers like Baker, Bonser, Slowey etc., could all have nice careers. They look like they can pitch, but Garza has the stuff to make your jaw drop.
I like Delmon and Harris, but it was a mistake to trade away an arm like Garza for a corner OF and a 2B. It’s too easy to find guys to fill those rolls. There are cheap free agents floating around right now looking for work at those spots.
You can look a long time before finding another arm like Garza’s.
ESPN is now reporting that Hank and the Yanks say they are still in the talks.
Interesting!!!
The Twins have been looking for 5 years for a LF and now they may have an all-star. Garza may have an all-star arm but he didn’t show he had an all-star head. Again I think it’s about even. Both have a legitimate chance to be big stars in this league.
The Twins have to believe Liriano is on his way back or they wouldn’t have traded Garza. Still Liriano this year is a stretch. Keep this lineup, add Coco for a prospect and next year have Liriano and Santana at the top of the rotation and they could win a World Series. Unfortunately we won’t see that with this ownership.
The hedline probably is misleading….
Yanks-Twins talks still alive despite reports to contrary
ESPN.com news services
January 14, 2008
TAMPA, Fla. — New York Yankees senior vice president Hank Steinbrenner has not closed the door on a trade for Minnesota Twins left-hander Johan Santana, despite reports to the contrary.
“It’s still in the deciding process,” Steinbrenner said Monday night outside Legends Field at the Yankees’ spring training complex. “We’re still discussing it. There’s still a little talk back and forth.”
Earlier on Monday, a baseball official with knowledge of the talks told 1050 ESPN Radio’s Andrew Marchand that the Yankees had pulled their Phil Hughes-centered trade offer for Santana off the table. The source said Steinbrenner could still change his mind.
Right-handed pitcher Hughes and center fielder Melky Cabrera would likely be part of a multiplayer package needed to obtain Santana, a two-time Cy Young Award winner who can become a free agent after this season.
Steinbrenner said reports that the Yankees recently withdrew a formal offer to the Twins are not true.
“There wasn’t an official offer anyway. You can’t withdraw something that wasn’t there,” Steinbrenner said. “There was no official offer on the table at this time.”
Since early December, the Yankees, New York Mets and Boston Red Sox have had Santana discussions with the Twins, with each team at different times reportedly taking the lead in the race to acquire the lefty.
It remains unclear of late if the Twins intend to trade Santana before the start of the 2008 season or hold onto him until the July trade deadline. Minnesota’s earlier offer to extend the left-hander’s contract by four years and $80 million was rejected.
Rick Anderson, the Twins’ pitching coach, wants to see an outcome as much as anyone.
“I wake up in the morning and hurry up and open up the paper to see if anything happened,” Anderson, who has tutored Santana since 2002, the first year his potential began to show, told The Associated Press.
Santana has been in Venezuela since the regular season ended, but he recently arrived in Fort Myers, Fla., to start his workouts.
In his first published comments this winter, Santana told the local newspaper that he didn’t know what to think about the situation.
“I’m a Minnesota Twin. That’s all I know. It’s up to them. Whatever they have to do is going to happen. It has nothing to do with me at all,” Santana told the News-Press of Fort Myers recently. “I said it from the beginning during the season last year, whatever will be the best for this team and this organization, I’ll agree with that.”
The Yankees did reveal one pitching plan on Monday. They plan to have an innings-pitched limit for another promising young pitcher, Joba Chamberlain, this season.
Steinbrenner said one option is to have Chamberlain start the season in the bullpen, when teams normally need just four starters, and then join the rotation. The decision will be made by manager Joe Girardi and pitching coach Dave Eiland.
“He will be a starter. That’s everybody’s intention,” Steinbrenner said. “How to start him out the year and build up his innings, and how to get him to that point is up to Girardi and Eiland. They may want to start him out in the bullpen and go to a starter. Or he could go a couple other different options.”
Information from The Associated Press was used in this report.
Garza was the one guy that looked like he could step in and become the new “ace” of the staff. His stuff was described as “electric”. It just looked on a way higher level to me. I don’t see that in the other guys.
It’s spilled milk, so no sense in crying over it. Remember when Terry Ryan first started and he traded away Tapani and Erickson for nothing? At least Delmon Young is something.
Sorry, Coomer!
I agree on the other guys. Slowey looks like a “pitcher” without an out pitch, Bonzer is just a mope and Baker has a chance if he comes back as the Baker of late 2007 and not the Baker of 2006. The others, Blackburn, Duesing, Perkins, who knows; it’s just a roll of the dice.
Most teams these days will not trade a star position player for a star pitcher. Too much risk of injury or flameout. That’s why we can’t get Reyes or Cano.
BC-I wont repeat what rh just posted but i agree with his opinion.You know what they say,opinions are like arshe. we all have one.You say you like the Bosox package better than the Mets package.How do we really know what conversations BS,Theo.Omar or Hank have had with each other.Unless we ”bug” all their phones,how are we to really know? My fear is if or when the Johan trade is made we will judge it against other packages that might only be rumored or speculated.We would be best served to the judge the trade on it’s own merits,not comparing it to other packages that may in fact be just speculation.
Terry Ryan didn’t get off to a great start either. Check it out:
July 6, 1995: Rick Aguilera to Boston for Frankie Rodriguez and JJ Johnson.
July 7, 1995: Scott Erickson to Baltimore for Scott Klingenbeck and Kimera Bartee.
July 31, 1995: Kevin Tapani and Mark Guthrie to the Dodgers for Ron Coomer, Greg Hansell, Jose Parra and Chris Latham.
Coomer was a older AAA type player, probably a throw in on the deal with the Twins. The Dodgers had picked him up from another team. Not really a prospect. He turned out to be the best player of those received. That’s not to say he was a great player. After Coomer achieved some success with the team, TK was asked about him: “He shows up everyday ready to play, you can’t ask for anymore than that”. Ha-ha. What an endorsement!
Garza for Young was a solid trade. Twins finally used some young pitching to get a bat.
Both still have “potential,” but I feel Young is more what the Twins need with the lack of hitting in the minors.
All those players except Coomer were projected highly.
Alright, I gotta mention This…
THIS IS A BASKETBALL POST.. SO DONT READ IT IF YOU ARE LOOKING FOR BASEBALL
Ok, So.. I love KG.. and I hope he wins a Title before his Career Ends..
But I am glad to see that he still cannot hit the Big Shot in the clutch..
Bricks 2 shots with the game on the line tonight and Boston goes down..
wow 1-3 in their last 4… Timberwolves are 1-3 in their last 4!.. hahaha
anyways.. Go get em Ticket
Delmon could be a good lead-off hitter. He’s a good line drive hitter with very little home run power, but he can shoot the ball into the gaps. He has some speed and with his gap power, he could score a lot of runs for the team. He could become a Shannon Stewart type, only with a much better arm. I like him.
craig- you say TR got off to a bad start.The trades you mentioned sure look like a salary dump to me.Any criticism of TR has to be tempered by the fact of the man he worked for.The man who had the power to fire him is named Pohlad.
No power?? He hit 25 HR’s in 2003 and 26 in 2004 (altho in the minors). He is projected as a 20-30 HR kind of guy if not better. He’s Tori wthout the I’m too good to be here anymore attitude.
OOPS, 25 in 2004 and 26 in 2005. 13 last year in the bigs. He’ll be a nice 3-4-5-6 kind of bat.
Geno, I’ve been a long time fan and supporter of Terry Ryan. You are right, those trades were all influenced by money.
13 HR in what was it 625 AB? He accomplished that in a smaller stadium. That is a comparatively “huge” left field in the dome.
Delmon hits to all fields and that baggie in right will kill most HR by a line drive hitter like Young going the other way.
He can hit anywhere in the lineup, but I wouldn’t count on double digit home run totals from him at the end of the year.
I’m talking about the “huge” LF in the METRO dome.
craig- I agree with your assesment of Young.He was after all the top ranked prospect in BA two or three years ago He attitude is iffy,but then again he still only 22 years old .I think the power will come with age.
GENO, I think Delmon is a big improvement in the lineup over Hunter. He should also be a big improvement over what the Twins had in LF last season.
You are right he could hit more HR as he gets older, but he doesn’t have a big looping swing that many HR hitters have, so I don’t expect it.
The guy with the big swing is Monroe. That guy is very strong. I’m not a big fan of his, but he can hit the ball a long way.
Craig
I know that you are special Craig, but realize that Young, is well young,(parden my horrible punn in which i deserve to be tied naked to a chair and burned with matches by a fat drunken woman who resmbels my mother)
, Young hit what 15 HR last year as a Rookie, and his power will come. Nearly every scout projected 20-30 Homeruns out of him, and most go as far as possibly close to 40 HR for Young.
Please do not make yourself sound stupid and say he has no power. He has power and will be an excellent hitter. This was an awesome trade for the Minnesota Twins, nearly every Sports Writter in America said we got the best part of the deal(although it was not a fleece by any means). Delmon Young has always been a top 3 projected hitter in any prospect list the last three years, so cut the crap. Matt Garza does not nearly have as much star power as Delmon has. Garza will be a probaby be a good #2,#3 starter, and Young will probably be a star. I love Bill smith for actualy trading young pitching for hitters.
On a completely other topic, My love for Bill Smith reminds me of the hate I had for TR last year, Sure he is an excellent scout, and has accompilished things as GM over the years, but the last three years as GM Terry Ryan was awful.
Remember these moves
1.Not trading Silva to the Phillies for PatBurell,prospects, and cash when everyone knew he was gone next year! I slightly see why the Twins did not trade Hunter for PR reasons(even I still hate that idea), but Silva was not well liked in Minnesota, so why possible would you not trade him for Burrel, prospects, and Cash? it blows my mind
2. Not Trading Hunter
3. Not offering a 4 year deal to Hunter
4. Trading castillo to the Mets for absolutely no one good in return, (we got way more for Ortiz)?!?!
*the list goes on
Wow i think it was right for TR to move on, i think he fits the role perfectly as head scout, and can give power over to the patient, yet aggresive, smart Bill Smith
This has probably been my longest post ever… I am a loser.
Tyler, Your not a loser and I never said Delmon had no power. He’s not a slap hitter either. He’s a very good line drive hitter who can hit the ball consistently into the gaps. He has a beautiful, quick natural swing. Thumbs up all the way, but he’s not worth Garza.
Geno and RH…
I don’t mind that you disagree with me. The idea that you guys are aiming like 2008 with Santana means we’ll have a chance to win it all is kind of refreshing… it’s like listening to my kids talk about all the wonderful things they are going to do when they get old… like being a teenager old.
The Twins aren’t going to contend in 2008. Please look up the 1972 Cardinals, and Steve Carlton. I believe that was the year he won 27 games, and won the NL Cy Young… I could seriously see Santana, and the Twins pulling a 21st century version of that. Santana with 24 wins, and the Twins with 69 wins as a team.
Without a number 2, or a number 3, why do you keep a 20 million dollar ACE? Why keep a 6 and soon to be 11-13 million dollar a year closer when you ahve no games to close?
You trade them, and when you say we have no one that won 10 games. Liriano did his rookie season I believe didn’t he?
This team is going to be young, and it’s going to be weak in experience. Santana would not make this team a contender.
Detroit is going to win between 95-101 games this year. The Indians between 89-94 games. The Royals should win about 75-79 games, the White Sox are 81 wins max, most likely a 75 win team…
With Santana we are a 75-79 win team. Without Santana we are a 68-71 win team in 2008.
I don’t see the difference other than we get better draft picks my way, and we get young players to come in and fill in many of the MAJOR wholes this team has in AA, AAA, and MLB levels.
Craig I agree with you that Garza was too much to give up, but I like Delmon Young, and I’d take him over the alternatives we had in LF even at the over inflated price.
I think I must be a bit older than Tyler when pitching was more important than hitting, but that’s where you and I differ Craig.
Delmon Young’s body, and his swing indicate that as Tyler said a 2008 projection of 21 homers should be about right,and by the time he’s 24-25 he could be hitting 35 homers, and be an amazing middle piece between Mauer, and Morneau.
I also agree with Tyler that Terry Ryan’s stepping down was a blessing. He showed he was a great underdog, but a terrible front runner. He couldn’t handle the pressure, and we’ll never know if the Pohlads had him nuetered, or if the fiscal choke collar was too tight, but that dog lost his bark and his bite in late 2006.
The Castillo trade was one of the worst trades I’ve ever seen.
I commend Smith for making a bold move and getting one of the best young hitters in the game. He showed more in that one move that Ryan’s shown since he traded to get Shannon Stewart. He even cried and whined over giving up the great Bobby Keilty in that deal as well.
BC - I don’t know why I’m arguing this because I think Young could be a fine hitter even if he hits zero HR. I think most every HR he hit last season was a line shot. Nothing wrong with that, but line drive hitters generally don’t hit many HR.
If he drives the ball deep to the gaps and rattles the walls, it doesn’t matter. He’s a good young hitter who will both drive in and score plenty of runs. I like him!
Line driver hitter — Gary Sheffield (through the walls and baggies sometimes)
Ellsbury is the safest deal out there. Followed by the Yankees deal. Then the Lester deal. Last the Mets deal.
The deal that would most likely bring the AJ Perzinski deal comparison is the METS. The potential talent with Mets in Fmart (as good as Lowrie) and Guerra (No Red Sox comparison) and Gomez (not far from Ellsbury) is truly scary. But they will need some time to develop, even Gomez probably needs 6 more months in the minors. So if you’re trying to compete in 08 you make the Ellsbury deal. If you’re trying to hit a home run you take the Mets deal. With Liriano a year away from being 100%, and such a young team, I take the Mets deal. I trade Nathan for a young thirdbase prospect. I look at 09 as a legit year to contend. Detroit will be older. Cleveland more expensive (maybe CC gone). Whitesox will be worse.
Yes, Sheffield could really “cream” that ball and hit it “clear” through a wall or baggie.
honestly i think the best trade is the ellsbury deal and if we cant get anything better we gotta take it, ellsbury is gonna be great, jed lowrie is a stud and probably will be a future all-star masterson could be a great reliever or at best a #4 or #5 pitcher in the rotation. That gives 2 stars ready this year. Then trade Nathan for a felix pie for insurance. If Ellsbury doesnt work out or we decide not to sign Cuddy long term and trade him away for more prospects. Move delmon to right ellsbury into center and pie in left. If jed Lowrie’s defense doesnt come around we can always use him at DH in the future. His bat is suppose to be amazing.
Craig - Line drive hitters with sweet swings who hit the gaps and bat close to .300 when they’re 21 years old are the guys that often develop into 35 HR hitters when they mature.
Also, Young would be probably the worst choice as a leadoff hitter. His OBP is very low (though it will hopefully improve with maturity also), and OBP is the most important characteristic of a leadoff guy.
Tampa needed to upgrade its pitching and felt Delmon Young had a bad attitude.
Tamapo hopes to ride past the Orioles out of the cellar (by 3 games in 2007), but Orioles will do their best to make Tampa’s rise possible, even without any trades or upgrades.
The Twins got a kid in Delmon Young who’s been pounding the baseball since he wore diapers.
Tampa is betting on Matt Garza, another pitcher with “potential.” Whether Garza rises above the “P” crowd remains to be seen. Tampa also has legit ace in Scott Kazmir, as well as potential in Edwin Jackson. Maybe, that’s a young top three (until free agency comes).
Tampa also expects BJ Upton to continue getting better in centerfield - and he had a good start in 2007.
Along those lines, Tampa is hoping for a free-agent-to-be excellent year from Carl Crawford, who’s got all the tools. The bet Tampa way is Johnny Gomes can put it together as DH. He can hit with power - 25-30 dingers, maybe.
The bad bet is a healthy Rocco Baldelli and Cliff Floyd, but stranger things have happened.
I personally like the good rising young hitter over the maybe solid pitcher..
Twins win this one, on paper, so far.
Cmon BC the Castillo trade one of the worst you’ve ever seen? As an avid (and outspoken) McHale critic, I find that amusing. Pure baseball he gave up an aging second baseman. Got a decent prospect and a catcher that projects to be a good back up defensive catcher. Plus he saved money, very important in Twins land. PR wise it wasn’t good but before the memory of 07 gets too far removed, we were more than keeping Castillo away from competing. Even a bold addition of a bat (and there weren’t many available) probably would not have made the difference.
Which pitcher is most likely to win 10 or more games next year?
Boof
Baker
Slowey
Liriano
Perkins
Blackburn
Nobody
I’ll go with Slowey. 10-14. He gets the nod from me over Nobody.
Breaking NEWS!!!
Rumors all over Boston is that the RedSox have joined the Yankees and are pulling out of the Santana talks.
in this order
liriano-13
Baker-13
Boof-10
Slowey 10
Blackburn-8
Perkins-8
The bars are hopping and the drunks talking in old Beantown..
yankees are not out of discusions beantown. http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3195926
roundabout
WEEI sports talk radio is reporting this. I don’t know if you ever heard of the station before?
Another idea that hasn’t been addressed. If the Twins do work out a trade deal, it is contingent on the new team working out an extension with Santana. What if during the negotiations the new team (NY METS OR YANKS) stick to a minimum number of years. Say 5 or 6. Santana isn’t happy with the offer. Doesn’t that open the window for us to extend Santana? Instead of the 4 year 80 million deal (5 yr 93 million) we go 5 year 100 million (6 year 113) and include a mutual option 6 year for an additional 25 million. With a buyout trade clause of 5 to 10 million.
Something to think about. No?
BC - I think you’re underestimating our pitchers for 2008. If we kept Santana, as you suggested, he should be better this year. (He had a rather pedestrian year last year.) Liriano would definitely be better than Silva for #2. Baker should be better this year, and his second half in 2007 could be how he pitches all year. Boof is working hard and losing weight, and should be better. Kevin Slowey should also be more consistent. Pitchers like him often do much better their second year in the league.
If one of those guys doesn’t pan out, we have an assortment of young guys, all of whom have some talent. One or more could well step up. Remember, the 4th and 5th spots for much of the first half last year were Ramon Ortiz and Ponson.
JP
Santana will take less money and less years to get out of Minnesota, he hates it there.
Dennis, give me a couple of examples of hitters who hit .300+ at 21 years of age, who had AB/HR totals similar to Delmon and went on to become 35 HR per year hitters. Outside the steroid era please. I’m not saying there are none, I just want to see your examples.
If you weren’t such a homer Beantown I’d find your comments amusing. One word, Hubris.
Another factor is that Delmon is already big and strong. Some guys are little when they are younger and get big. Delmon is already big.
I think Delmon would have to radically alter his swing in order to hit a lot of HR. He has a nice compact, level swing. Why change?
Craig - I’ll give that a shot. Probably will have to wait until tomorrow though. I’ve got a couple things to do yet before bed.
Good challenge, though. Normally when I say stuff like that I have specific guys in mind. But I’m confident in that comment, and will give you names tomorrow. Be sure to check back.
Beantown a direct quote from Santana:
“I’m a Minnesota Twin. That’s all I know. It’s up to them. Whatever they have to do is going to happen. It has nothing to do with me at all,” Santana told the News-Press of Fort Myers recently. “I said it from the beginning during the season last year, whatever will be the best for this team and this organization, I’ll agree with that.”
That really sounds like a guy who hates his team and city.
Beantown!!! is more obnoxious than me. He has taken my job.
Mantle and Mays — similar opening years lol
Delmon Young has started out faster than Sheffield and Willie Stargell.
Though not Frank Robinson, who had 38 HR and 83 RBIs his first year, hitting .290. Ditto, Tony Oliva’s first year at 23 - 32 HR and 94 RBIs, hitting .323.
Now, Delmon can only dream to be in their league come 20 years from now. There’s hope.
I’m still saying guys like that who start in the majors at 21 or so develop their power later. I know that’s the sort of thing that has been said about Joe Mauer. BC and Dan Barreiro keep giving him grief for not hitting more HRs. (Even though he won a batting title as a catcher at an extremely young age.) Many scouts have said he’ll develop significant power as he matures.
i hate when beantown is in here he puts a negative vibe in here and makes people want to kill him
Dennis, It’s not a challenge, really. I was just wondering who you had in mind. I thought of Yaz, Tony Oliva, Vada Pinson, Clemente, Boggs, maybe Kaline. I haven’t checked their stats, but they might be some possibilities.
Craig,
Not Antonio Lopez Oliva.. Kaline never reacher 30 HR nor did Boggs. Neither did Pinson, but proportionally given the 1960s, you can project he hit more than 30 in today’s language. Clemente was never a homerun hitter (hit 29 late in his career, I believe), a line driver singles hitter mostly.
Justin
All i said was that Santana hates it in Minnesota. He is trying to say all the right things but in his heart he wants out of minnesota because their not competing every year and the city is a Hellhole.
How about Magglio Ordonez? He hit 14 HR in 535 at bats his first full season, batting .282. Then hit 30 the following year. Not the perfect example, but sort of what I was getting at. A good BA start with low HRs, followed by increased power.
Dennis
how do you know Magglio Ordonez wasn’t on steriods???
Boston is the new TITLE TOWN U.S.A. Redsox, Patriots, Celtics, thanks for Garnett Minnesota you don’t deserve him anyway!!!!! Also thanks for David Ortiz and Randy Moss.
Good Night.
Oliva hit 32 his 1st year. I recall that now. Clemente might be a good comparison. Pinson sort of lost his power as he aged, as I recall. I think Boggs had one or two big HR years. So did Yaz. 1967 Yaz hit I believe, 44. He was more of a 15-18 HR guy I think at first.
” the city is a Hellhole”
No Bean, Detroit and St. Louis are hell holes. Minneapolis is sort of a purgatory hole. We haven’t quite reached the status of a full blown hell hole.
I wish Beantown would post his email address. Then anytime a boston team fails we could invade his space with arrogant idiotic pointless comments. Good riddance.
JP
Boston teams never fail!! when was the last time that happened?? as for Santana(aka garbage man)he is on the end of his career.
Alex Rios: ONE HR his first year, hitting .286 in 426 at bats. Has been building power ever since.
Sheffield: 10 HRs in 487 at bats in 1990, batting .294.
Soriano: 18 HR in 574 AB in 2001; 46 in 2006.
Rollins: 14 HR at age 22 in 656 AB in 2001; followed by 11, 8, 14 and 12. Power then developed with 25 and 30 in 2006 and 2007
Hanley Ramirez: 17 HR in 633 AB in 2006 at age 22; 29 HR last year, power probably still growing.
Torii Hunter: 9 and 5 HRs his first two years; the 5 were in 336 AB, pro-rating to fewer than Young hit last year; he hit .280 that year.
Roundabout mentioned Kaline. He hit FOUR HR in 504 AB in 1954, batting .276. He went on to hit the upper 20s several times, reaching 29 in 1962.
Hey beanie,
how did the celtics do this week against the wizards?
Now I’m looking through my old baseball cards!
Gil Hodges hit 11 HRs in 481 AB in 1948, followed by seasons of 23, 32 and 40.
Yastrzemski hit 11 HRs in 583 at bats in 1961, the year he turned 22 years old. He eventually had three seasons over 40.
The great Roberto Clemente hit 5, 7, 4, 6, 4 HRs in his first five seasons. He eventually hit as many as 29.
Hank Aaron hit 13 HRs in 468 at bats in 1954, his age 20 season.
George Brett hit TWO HRs in 457 AB in his age 21 season, followed by 11 HRs in 634 at bats the next year, batting .308. He eventually hit 30.
Rickey Henderson hit 9 in 591 AB in his age 21 season, batting .303. He eventually hit 28 twice.
Rafael Palmeiro hit 8 HRs in both his age 23 and 24 seasons in 580 and 559 AB. He eventually hit 47 twice. (Of course, he started using steroids at some point.)
Kirby Puckett hit ZERO HRs in 557 AB in his age 24 season. He eventually hit 31.
Ryne Sandberg hit seven in 635 AB in his age 22 season (and 8 the next year). He eventually hit 40.
Robin Ventura hit 5 HR in 493 AB during his age 22 season. He eventually hit 34.
Bernie Williams hit 12 HR in 567 AB in his age 24 season. He eventually hit 30.
Robin Yount hit 8 in 558 AB in his age 19 season. Followed by 2 in 638 AB, 4 in 605 AB, 9 in 502 AB, and 8 in 577 AB. He eventually hit 29.
OK, my revised guess is that Young will settle in in the mid to upper 20s. Though scouts still talk about 35-40.
Damn, I’m going to be totally worthless at work tomorrow.
Beanie- the Celtics have been horrible for the past decade. They look good now, and have about a 3 year window until they are god-awful again.
And the Bruins? gross…
How about BC’s collapse at the end of the College FB season…
And dont forget the 86 years of mediocre baseball…
Here is to Billy Volek this weekend…
Craig says:
January 15th, 2008 at 12:26 am
” the city is a Hellhole”
No Bean, Detroit and St. Louis are hell holes. Minneapolis is sort of a purgatory hole. We haven’t quite reached the status of a full blown hell hole.”
No way, the Twin Cities are awesome…I think because of the weather people confuse the Cities with Siberia, but other than that, what do we truly have to bitch about? THis is a beautiful state, we have arts and entertainment, some nightlife, nice job market, etc…
From mlbtraderumors:
“Neal On Santana Staying
La Velle E. Neal III of the Minneapolis Star-Tribune was recently named Rumor Royalty for the Twins. As part of the feature, he answered a few questions for MLBTR.
MLBTR: In your estimation what is the percent likelihood that Johan Santana stays with the Twins for all of ‘08 and Bill Smith just collects the draft picks? I imagine fans wouldn’t mind seeing Johan and Francisco Liriano paired up one last time.
Neal: I would guess 10 percent - and some people would say that’s too high. The Twins had to deal with Torii Hunter’s lame duck season last year and, while it would be entertaining to watch Santana work his craft during a walk year, the Twins would be criticized all season for not dealing Santana to get players who could fill holes on the major league roster and boost the minor league system.”
But we can make a run with Santana and Liriano! (sarcasm)
the yankees have the most pathetic front office ever…
seriously.. they need to get an owner, or a GM with a set of Balls. One thats Shuts up and Does business.. Right now its obvious that they have owners who always need to have the spotlight on them.. they have money, but no idea how to build an organization
Exactly…one day, “we’re out of it,” the next day, “we have the best package available.”
F*ckin’ A…like you said, MH, grow a set.
TA agreed
its pretty pathetic.. and right now i dont care.. like i said yesturday.. Bill smith should just ignore the yanks right now.. Unless They offer up what the twins are asking for hughez/kennedy/melky ..
if its anything other then that then the twins should just ignore them…
If i were boston, i would just offer up ellsbury/lester and get johan..
this way when manny and schilling come off the books (more then likely will happen) they can make a run at Sabathia.. because i do not believe sabathia will sign an extension with cleveland..
MH,
A couple of days ago on Jan 13 you whined that Hughes was injury prone, Melky may not even be a top 25 centerfielder.
Now you are whining that the Yankees need a set of balls cause you want them to trade for Santana?. LOL You are hilarious. Maybe the Twins have to make an offer.
You can’t have it both ways.
Trade with the BoSox or Mets or keep Santana.
MH says:
January 13th, 2008 at 2:00 pm
Roundabout,
my god, tell us something new
im sick of hearing YOU think an injury prone hughes, a maybe top 25 Cf in baseball, and a 3rd prospect is good enough for johan..
Hey, felt the need to counteract dufas Beantown!! with a Bostonian that won’t insult your players or your city when being a guest on your board (actually looking forwarding to visiting there this Spring!)
Woke up to this in the Boston Globe this morning:
“The Red Sox have been very quiet as of late about their interest. A Jon Lester-Coco Crisp-Justin Masterson and possibly Jed Lowrie package could still be in play. But some Sox officials would prefer to keep their young players and not make the deal.
The Sox feel they are in a win-win situation regarding Santana. If they acquire him, they would have the best lefty-righty combination in the game with him and Josh Beckett; without Santana, they believe they can continue to develop Clay Buchholz and Lester.”
I agree with this. Maybe it is just because this whole thing has strung out for so long and sometimes the big trades do seem to come out of the blue (since we have an actual GM who doesn’t talk out of his ass and gets things done), but the feeling I have here in Boston is that the chances this deal will get done here are dropping by the day.
At this point I’d kick up 5 million of his salary just to get Santana to go to the Mets and stay out of the AL East and lace up the cleats for Spring Training in a month. When your defending WS Champs there isn’t the same impetus to feel like you have to go out and make the biggest move of the off-season and pony up the biggest contract ever given to a pitcher.
roundabout
when i say the yanks front office needs a set of balls, this is what i mean..
If they truly believe they have the best offer for Johan, then why do they keep “pulling out” of the johan talks?? hmm, seems kind of funny, Hank says that they have the best offer.. Well if Hank has any balls, he will shut is mouth and let the johan deal play out.
If I am bill smith, i wouldnt pay one bit of attention to the yankees until they gave the twins the offer the twins wanted..
roundabout.. so, read my post..
at no point today did i say i wanted the yankees to trade for santana.. AT NO POINT DID I SAY THAT..
I said the yanks need ownership with knowledge and balls..
Also if this is what i said on
January 13th, 2008 at 2:00 pm
Roundabout,
my god, tell us something new
im sick of hearing YOU think an injury prone hughes, a maybe top 25 Cf in baseball, and a 3rd prospect is good enough for johan..
How does this affect at all what i said today?
Twins Want hughes/melky/kennedy
yanks offering hughes/melky/crap
again, injury prone hughes/melky/ and the weak 3rd prospect are not good enough for johan..
so in closing.. im not sure what i said today to make you think.. that i want the yankees to trade for johan?
roundabout..
also..
you were not at this blog much yesturday.. i scrolled through the postings..
maybe you were not at the blog because the yankees had “pulled out”
now this morning you got up and the yankees are “talking” to the twins again..
glad to see you are back at the blog..
haha.. but i guess i shouldnt expect you here tomorrow.. cuz hank will spout off at the mouth again
Dennis, Good job! You might be right. One difference is quite a few of those guys were pretty small when they first arrived and got bigger and stronger as they aged. Even Hammerin’ Hank was a little skinny guy. Delmon is already big and strong. We will see what happens. Thanks for all the input. Great to see those names again.
Tate-
I agree for the most part. I feel like the Sox have made their offers (I think they would still do either, the Ellsbury one would be a 3-1 though) and are going to stick with them. Theo is a smart man, he put together two deals that fit the Twins needs, help the Sox in the short term, and wont hurt them much in the long term. The Twins could really take either of those deals and come away with a decent (not great) return. I think the Sox are firm on their deal and will leave it on the table because the possibility of a Pats-like run over the next 4-5 years would be likley with Santana at the top of their rotation. For their part, I think the Twins have let the Sox know that if they want the deal done now, they would have to put Ellsbury and Lester together, but if not we are willing to see if there are better deals out there. But the fact that the Red Sox remain part of the equation indicates that if the deals do not materalize like the Twins would like, they may fall back to a Lester OR Ellsbury deal. I am pleased with the way the FO from both the Twins and Red Sox have communicated this off season, they have kept it out of the press and very professional.
At this point, I will be somewhat suprised if the opening day CF for the Twins isnt Coco Crisp or Jacoby Ellsbury (either in a Santana trade, or Crisp in a seperate deal).
By the way, that ESPN article yesterday that started all of the “Yankees are pulling out” talk had little new information or substance. The fact that people ran with that headline just shows how hard we are all trying to make a story out of nothing.
Dennis you just rattled off one of the shelves in my office. I’m an old school baseball card collector myself. I haven’t had the money to buy anything for a while, but I have 1st or 2nd year cards of each of those players… along with both and multiples of some… (9-10 henderson’s).
Tate I agree with you.
Theo has shown nothing but class this offseason with how he’s handled this.
Hank the mouth… if he were half the man his father was/is… this deal would have been done because the Yankees are all about winning now, winning every year, and right now they are not a favorite for the wildcard team in baseball.
They spent a ton of money to re-up older players… great players, but the same things they always had, and the Mariners, and Indians both improved, the Angels improved, the Red Sox didn’t get any worse, and those lowly bottom feeding Devil Rays are now going to leap frog Toronto and Baltimore and be in 3rd place and probably a .500 team this year so no more easy wins…
The Twins need to get rid of Santana, the Mets need him most, but the Yankees streak of 12 years is over without him. Roundabout, you’re a great guy, I’m not saying this to upset you… I liked the yankees, I like their prospects… lowballing the Twins like they’ve been doing and then with Hank’s mouth constantly moving… the man needs to have his lips sowed shut.
I basically agree with what is being said here, especially in the way Theo conducts business. He always does his homework, sets a value on a player, and sticks with that value no matter where public opinion goes; up or down. (Looks even better compared to all these Hank-isms!)
If he can hold tight on a deal for Mike Lowell, WS MVP, and the man whose name was being chanted immediately after the world series win and for the entire victory parade, “re-sign Lowell” you have to believe he can hold the line on Santana.
So, if the Twins are thinking that holding on to Santana will drive up the price I’m pretty sure its not going to happen in Boston. Maybe you can get the Mets to do a foolish Detroit-like trade, but my feeling now is the longer this goes on the better the Boston deals will look. There is actually speculation here whether the Ellsbury deal is even still on the table.
The other local paper has a little statement that Nathan is available for the right price. I think it would be wise for the Twins to start throwing his name out there. That way when they do trade Santana, the Nathan trade can shortly follow because the Twins will know who is interested.
MH,
I know what you wrote. I cited it. I found it funny you whine about the Yankees’s offer, demean the Yankee players, then you demean the team because you want them involved in the trade talks? Why? To jack up Boston or the Mets? Hmmmmm
You lack of baseball knowledge is astounding and your ability to project is weak.
BTW, I was on the blog last night. I read and contribute when I have something to contribute.
I even provided the article on what Steinbrenner said. And what he said was he’s still mulling over in his mind whether he wants to make the trade. He also said there is no office to pull from the table because there hasn’t been an official offer on the table.
If you have a reading disability, please let us know. We will compensate for you.
Calling Hughes injury prone is stupid. Not thinking Melky is any good is your view - considering how you demean Yankees, people should take it with a grain of salt.
Interestingly, why haven’t the Twins taken the Boston offer- either one if Ellsbury is still on the table - or the Mets offer. Or the Yankee offer.
We’ve run out of offers.. Three offers for the best pitcher in baseball. You should worry about your team, rather than the Yankees. I will enjoy a summer of baseball; I am not sure you will for many summers down the road.
Mets Prefer Bedard Over Santana?
Interesting line from Lisa Kennelly of the Newark Star-Ledger today:
The Mets, however, prefer Baltimore’s Erik Bedard over Santana, since he wouldn’t require the same lucrative extension as part of the deal.
The Mets have an option the Red Sox and Yankees probably don’t - they might be able to acquire Erik Bedard for a price similar to what it would take to get Johan Santana. It makes complete sense that Bedard would be more attractive - it’s two years of him versus one of Santana. Even if Santana is a slightly better/more durable pitcher, two years easily outweighs that. Jon Heyman said on December 3rd that the Mets had offered Carlos Gomez, Phil Humber, and Aaron Heilman for Bedard, which “barely drew a response from Baltimore.”
The Mets’ interest in Bedard goes back for at least a few months; it’s probably just been on the backburner. The Red Sox and Yankees have expressed interest, but it was said that Peter Angelos didn’t want to trade Bedard within the division.
mlbtraderumors.com
roundabout
hahaha
im not going to argue.. i write one thing.. you read it wrong..
you write something. i read it how i want too..
show me when i said i want the yankees in trade talks with the twins
BC,
The Steinbrenners are open season - rip them all you want They can be annoying. No argument from me.
I just found it funny that MH demeans the Yankee prospects and offer, then complains Hank Steinbrenner has no guts to make a deal. The Yanks have been conflicted abotu dealing Hughes and acquiring Santana from the beginning. That’s been obvious.
Yikes. From the Boston Globe as quoted by Tate this morning:
“The Red Sox have been very quiet as of late about their interest. A Jon Lester-Coco Crisp-Justin Masterson and possibly Jed Lowrie package could still be in play.”
“Possibly Jed Lowrie”???? Everyone has been assuming that the Sox deal with Lester was the least attractive one, and this story is saying Lowrie may not even be part of it.
I’m beginning to think Bill Smith might indeed have overplayed his hand, and the longer the Yankees and Red Sox have to think about things the more likely they are to pull back, rather than to offer more.
NH,
Why are you challenging the Steinbrenners to get a set and stand up and make a decision if you won’t want the Yanks in the mix LOL.. It’s obvious or you just want to bash the Yankees. .Which is it?
Now, if the Mets Pull out and go for Bedard (obviously they find his price easier to swallow in money and players) you still think the Red Sox are going to offer both Lester and Ellsbury.
Then there was One..
Maybe you want the Yankees in now
Roundabout
Simply because I say the yankees front office needs to get a set of balls, does not mean I WANT THE YANKEES to trade for Johan..
- so, thats your opinion.. and you have that part twisted..
I am tired of listening to Hank on the Johan trade.. one day they are in it. .the next day they are not..
If i were Bill Smith, I would ONLY listen to the Yankees, IF THE YANKEES GAVE THE TWINS EXACTLY WHAT THEY WANTED..
which at the beginning was a HUGHES/MELKY/KENNEDY offer.
now, apparantly thats what the twins want.. if that is good enough for them.. then they should do it..
No, How can Hank believe he has the “best offer” for Johan one day.. and the next day he pulls out.. then he apparantly didnt pull out. and he is still mulling it over..
get some balls and shut your mouth. learn how to do business.
hopefully you dont put your own spin on this .. cuz i am tired of you thinking i want to deal with the yankees!
MH - Thanks for quoting the Lisa Kennelly article. That brings home what I’ve been saying all along - the contract requirements of Santana dramatically lower his trade value. I don’t think the Twins really get that yet.
This from Rotoworld this morning:
“General manager Brian Cashman indicated Monday that the Yankees could still acquire Johan Santana if the Twins lower their asking price.
A Yankees official told the New York Post that the Twins haven’t budged from their demand of Phil Hughes, Melky Cabrera, Ian Kennedy and Jeff Marquez. ‘I know what they want,’ Cashman said. ‘If they call and give us something else to think about, we’ll discuss it.’”
The Twins just aren’t moving away from their demands, and I don’t think anyone is going to cave, unless it’s the Mets.
interesting article….
You can understand why the White Sox can’t get Johan Santana.
Playing in the same division makes it impossible, and even if Minnesota were willing, the Sox don’t have unlimited resources or prospects.
On the other hand, the Cubs have nothing but money to spend, can afford Santana’s $13 million in 2008, and have enough young players to make this deal possible.
Santana might insist on a long-term deal before he waives his no-trade clause, and that’s fine, too, since the Cubs have no issues with piling up debt.
Obviously, it’s not going to benefit the franchise long term if they don’t sign Santana to a contract extension, but nothing the Cubs do these days has anything to do with the long-term health of the franchise.
They’re running this like it’s a government operation, and the last thing they’re concerned about is 2009 or beyond.
This is about reaching the World Series in 2008, and if they don’t a lot of people are going to lose their jobs, sale or no sale.
So what do they care what it takes to get Santana, or their chances of re-signing him?
This has become an all-or-nothing exercise, and let’s face it, folks, when some of the really bad long-term deals come home to roost, this club faces some pretty lean years.
If all the eggs aren’t already in one basket, tossing Santana in with the rest certainly would make it so, and maybe put the Cubs over the top.
So give the Twins a Felix Pie and Donald Veal. Hand over Rich Hill if you must. Toss in Jeff Samardzija and Matt Murton. Don’t fret over the loss of Kevin Hart.
This is Johan Santana we’re talking about, and he gives you the best chance yet of ending the drought before you hit the magic century mark without a World Series.
With Santana and Carlos Zambrano at the top, and Ted Lilly a solid No. 3, you can get by with Jason Marquis and Sean Marshall.
If you’re still unhappy, go sign a Livan Hernandez to fill out your playoff rotation.
In the meantime, add Kenny Lofton to play center, and on the days he can’t go, the Cubs can use Kosuke Fukudome.
Go get Brian Roberts and then hope the Cubs can stay healthy enough to get past Arizona in October.
You’re probably thinking that with all these moves the Cubs would get a whole lot older.
And while waiting for a title, so do the fans.
Road tripped
The possibility of taking the road show to Springfield to stump for votes has been squashed by the Cubs, after news leaked that they were pondering a caravan move to the land of lawmakers to push for the state’s purchase of Wrigley Field.
Idol chatter
Thanks to truehoop.com, and a German-made documentary from a few years back, we saw Dirk Nowitzki explain that he was a big fan of Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen growing up.
Until he met Pippen.
“That was an amazing feeling. You stand out there on the court and play against him,” Nowitzki said. “That was kind of difficult in my first year, all these posters I had in my room, and suddenly I played against those people.
“And then I was also totally disappointed because Scottie Pippen, who is really my idol, is an arrogant (bleep) like you wouldn’t believe. I was so disappointed.”
Shocking.
Ivan Boldirev-ing
The Blackhawks have never had it better at the top with Rocky Wirtz, John McDonough and Jay Blunk, but below them it remains a circus with all three rings occupied and opulent.
In the last 12 months they’ve had 10-game and eight-game losing streaks, but instead of making changes where they need to be, players are shuffled back and forth between Chicago and the minors.
One who departed recently was Troy Brouwer. The Hawks proceeded to tell the entire world Brouwer couldn’t skate, this determination made after 12 minutes of one game.
That’s a terrific way to boost the player’s market value, not to mention his self-esteem. It also really makes a player want to bleed for the sweater after being humiliated by the parent club.
That’s how you develop young players, by telling the rest of the league they can’t skate?
Of course, this is the same group that benches Dustin Byfuglien for a mistake, but when Brent Sopel commits the same turnover in the same period he gets more ice time and a contract extension.
Now that they’re out of the race, the Hawks are back to telling everyone how young they are again. That was predictable. But if they’re going to brag about all kids, shouldn’t they have a staff here that can develop them?
so….. maybe the cubs will fly in?
roundabout
besides.. you called me stupid and said i cannot read..
your a classy individual..
i thought we were suppose to keep this blog to baseball??
Dennis
I dont think the twins Should lower their demands, I think the Twins should not listen to the yankees unless the yankees offer exactly what the twins want..
the offer from boston is fine, not sure exactly what the mets are offering, but i think the twins will be ok with either deal..
im saying the yankees, and only the yankees should have to offer up exactly what the twins want.. because If i am Bill Smith.. I am tired of listening to Hank..
And if hank really believes he has the best offer out there for Johan.. then he wouldnt be spouting off at the mouth..
so, the yanks can keep their offer of hughes/melky/ ??? out there.. but if i am bill smith.. i dont even look at that offer.. unless its exactly what they want.. which was hughes/melky/kennedy..
show hank how to do business
MH,
I asked if you had trouble reading, cause of your distortions of what Steinbrenner said. Or maybe, you never actually read what he said (which is worse).
And I said calling Hughes injury prone was stupid. That referred to your comment being stupid, not you.
See you can’t read.
Back to baseball. You saw Cashman’s comments. It’s clear the Yankees feel the Twins price for Santana is too high. So it seems to me the Yanks will listen if the Twins come down on their price, based on what Cashman is quoted as saying.
So you are left with Lester et al from Boston..
MH,
Your point is that the Twins should ignore the Yankees and consider lesser offers from other teams because “they (you)are tired of listening to Hank”?
So the Twins should screw up their own team to sooth their (your) frustrations.
And you say that is how to do business.
If that is how you run your business, please put that in your investment brochures so your investors know that you make your decisions on emotion, not intelligence.
Dennis - that is kind of why I wanted to post that Boston Globe article here; I’m not sure what it is like in MN, but in Boston I feel we’re pretty sure your hand is played with Santana and the only movement with trades now is likely to be less.
As you say, everyone (maybe except your GM) understands this trade as a posting fee and not a real trade given the extension demands and that price severely impacts what teams are willing to give up.
If the Yankees and Red Sox felt confident that neither team would make a move towards Santana I’m convinced they would both be very happy to see him land in the NL and would pull ALL their offers so they can focus on developing their young talent. (They may have already pulled some.) Of course, if you have a chance to land him you have to try, but not at any price.
sane..
i guess its your personally opinion that the sox and mets have lesser offers..
and its my personal opinion that the yankees have a lesser offer…
as far as cashman saying the twins should lessen their trade demands for johan..
thats smart business.. just like the twins saying they are not going to lessen their offers..
so, as far as investors go, my investors are doing just fine and dandy…
MH,
My only point is to leave emotion out of the process.
Take the best offer period.
Joe C. wrote in the Trib today that the East Coast media thinks that BC has overplayed his hand in regard to the Johan trade. Some of these people think that all they have to do is wait until he hits the free agent market after this season ends. They say they can sign him for 09 without mortgaging their future prospects. There is one giant flaw with this argument. If they trade for him now and sign him for an extension, they will have his services for the length of time of the extension. If he hits the open market and all the teams can bid for his services, there is no guaranty they can secure his services. Johan would be highly motivated to have a great season with the Twins for that very reason, not necessarily reflected in wins and losses but in ERA and WHIP. After a great season in 08 with the Twins, the bidding for his services might hit A/Rod type numbers. BS hold firm.
the more they tell you that you have overplayed your hand, the more you should know you have them right where you want them.
“Overplaying his hand” is second guesser b-ll sh-t, flushed out of Boston, New York and Minnesota.
I understand that, if second guessing was off limits, sports blogs would dry up.
If Bill Smith does what looks correct AT THE TIME, I have no problem with any of his actions.
Ultimately, if it doesn’t work out as well as his other options would have worked out, then welcome to real life.
Only second guessers make perfect decisions and their life is anything but real.
Geno,
I’m not sure anything has really happened to, “second guess” yet, but I’ve got to disagree with you here.
Do you really think that Santana is going to get more than 20-25 million per year for 6 years in free agency(his rumored demands)? That is just stupid money to begin with.
There are only a handful of clubs in all of MLB able/willing to shell out that kind of cash and those teams (I’m thinking Yankees - Red Sox) would much rather devote a known amount of financial resources (which we’ve got to spend) then sacrifice the fruits of a farm system we both have been working hard to bring along.
Being that those clubs and Santana’s expected contract or not going to change between now and his potential free agency the only motivation in terms of long-term organizational health teams have to trade now is to keep him from going to another team (again, a posting fee, essentially.)
Unlike Dice-K, Santana is not going to sign for 1/2 of what he is worth because his new suitor is willing to give up the farm (or whatever) - read; Twins are in a relatively weak position right now.
Maybe some team like the Mets will cave, but I really hope (and don’t think) the Sox will.
I do agree with Sane that there are some deals that look pretty fair to me on the table and at some point you’ll just have to pull the trigger on what looks best.
If BS “holds firm” he runs the real risk of getting draft picks for Santana when he could have gotten significant help for the future. I just don’t see the market heating up. He should decide what deal he likes best right now, then go to the other two and see if either will beat it. If not, take the best deal.
Dennis,
I agree, except I would extend the “right now” time frame for 2-3 more weeks if BS has any any reasonable hope for a break in the stalemate.
