Are the Red Sox holding the best chips for Santana?
Posted on January 15th, 2008 – 9:25 AMBy Joe Christensen
Two experts from Baseball America told the Boston Herald the best reported offer on the table for Johan Santana is Boston’s offer of Jon Lester, Coco Crisp, Jed Lowrie and Justin Masterson.
[John] Manuel prefers the Red Sox’ offer topped by lefty Jon Lester and center fielder Coco Crisp because he thinks Lester can be a middle-of-the-rotation starter and that the other offer features the Sox selling “high” with outfielder Jacoby Ellsbury.
“If they thought Jed Lowrie (.393 combined on-base percentage in Double A and Triple A last year) could be a major league shortstop, the Twins have to make that deal,” Manuel said. “The Twins are holding out for more offense. … None of these offers fit the Twins’ needs.”
Jim Callis, executive editor of Baseball America, said that even if the Yankees were to include right-hander Ian Kennedy in their offer or the Mets were to include hitting phenom Fernando Martinez, neither team’s package would be better than the Lester-Crisp package (Callis’ first choice) or the Ellsbury (No. 2 for Callis) offer.
Callis goes on to say, “If the Twins wanted to roll the dice, the Mets’ offer (with Martinez) could be the best deal.” But both Callis and Manuel agreed that the Twins would be taking a leap of faith by taking it because the players are so green.
Martinez and Deolis Guerra are years from reaching the majors. And even though the others are more advanced, Carlos Gomez, Phil Humber and Kevin Mulvey remain unproven at the big league level.
Meanwhile, amid the circus of on-again, off-again Yankee rumblings yesterday, I wrote about the possibility of the Twins overplaying their hand.
364 Responses to "Are the Red Sox holding the best chips for Santana?"
i wonder what we would have to offer with santana to get a deal with both ellsbury and lester in a deal. Nathan? Cuddyer? either one id do. we can move delmon to right ellsbury in center and monroe in left sharing time with kubel. Who know maybe pridie would win left field. Just we need another starter for the rotation and offense. I know Boston is looking for a right fielder so why not give up cuddy?
Justin You can’t Give Offense to get Offense. The Twins NEED offense and if you trade cuddy and only elsbury in return guess what now you STILL NEED offense, so the trade did nothing
I know the Twins normally do the safe and certain thing, but I wish they would swing for the fences. I know the Mets trade would have high risk but it also would have high reward if it pans out. I know that some of the players are a few years away but if their upside is higher I would love to see them go that route.
interesting article…
You can understand why the White Sox can’t get Johan Santana.
Playing in the same division makes it impossible, and even if Minnesota were willing, the Sox don’t have unlimited resources or prospects.
On the other hand, the Cubs have nothing but money to spend, can afford Santana’s $13 million in 2008, and have enough young players to make this deal possible.
Santana might insist on a long-term deal before he waives his no-trade clause, and that’s fine, too, since the Cubs have no issues with piling up debt.
Obviously, it’s not going to benefit the franchise long term if they don’t sign Santana to a contract extension, but nothing the Cubs do these days has anything to do with the long-term health of the franchise.
They’re running this like it’s a government operation, and the last thing they’re concerned about is 2009 or beyond.
This is about reaching the World Series in 2008, and if they don’t a lot of people are going to lose their jobs, sale or no sale.
So what do they care what it takes to get Santana, or their chances of re-signing him?
This has become an all-or-nothing exercise, and let’s face it, folks, when some of the really bad long-term deals come home to roost, this club faces some pretty lean years.
If all the eggs aren’t already in one basket, tossing Santana in with the rest certainly would make it so, and maybe put the Cubs over the top.
So give the Twins a Felix Pie and Donald Veal. Hand over Rich Hill if you must. Toss in Jeff Samardzija and Matt Murton. Don’t fret over the loss of Kevin Hart.
This is Johan Santana we’re talking about, and he gives you the best chance yet of ending the drought before you hit the magic century mark without a World Series.
With Santana and Carlos Zambrano at the top, and Ted Lilly a solid No. 3, you can get by with Jason Marquis and Sean Marshall.
If you’re still unhappy, go sign a Livan Hernandez to fill out your playoff rotation.
In the meantime, add Kenny Lofton to play center, and on the days he can’t go, the Cubs can use Kosuke Fukudome.
Go get Brian Roberts and then hope the Cubs can stay healthy enough to get past Arizona in October.
You’re probably thinking that with all these moves the Cubs would get a whole lot older.
And while waiting for a title, so do the fans.
maybe the cubs could swing in?
alright… i am not here to argue.. i am a twins fan.. and i have always been thinking from a different perspective..
hopefully people do not get it twisted again (roundabout)
I actually like the lester/crisp/lowrie/masterson offer, i know most people don’t like crisp BUT he would only be a stop gap because you have Pirdie and to a lesser extent Span in the minors ready to take over. Crisp also gives a us a very good leadoff hitter, which could help this team a lot.
very true! without knowing what the yankees may or may not be offering the lester offer fills the most needs now. i like the mets stuff (higher possible up side) with both gomez and martinez if one might make it and one of the pitchers is good you have crisp and lester but it may be 2-3 yrs for them to contribute. however, i don’t like him going to the sox or yankees just screws up the balance of power even more.
True, But I think you have to take the Best offer and right now that is the Lester one Unless The Mets throw in Martinez to than your right I probably would take the Mets offer. Also I think if you go back and tell the Sox and Yankees that your taking the Mets Offer they WILL up theres and add what you want
I think accepting Lester is not helpful at all. I see the Red Sox knowing or seeing something in him that stats don’t necessarily show yet. I’d rather see Ellsbury plus one other really good name, going for quality instead of quantity, if it has to be the Sox. Too bad the Yankees have to be led by someone so moody.
Then again, at least both those teams want a winner, unlike another franchise that has become a piece of profit to be unloaded now that a free stadium was thrown into the mix.
anyone think that a cubs deal may happen with santana? maybe even both santana and nathan..
santana and nathan for pie,marmol,hill,veal,harvey,and ghallager?
Shawn
I think you are wrong in that the Yanks and Sox main agenda is to keep Johan away from the other team. If the Twins go to those two teams and say they have a deal lined up with the Mets I would think they would be pretty happy that he would be going to the NL. I think the only leverage is when you have the Yankees and Sox going head to head with nobody else getting involved.
Lion That would be a good trade, I just don’t think it will happen.
lion
Enough already, your trade proposal are asenine. The Cubs payroll is already at around $130 million. Plus if the Twins were going to send him to the Cubs they would ask for a lot different players than the ones you mentioned.
lion what part of your body did you pull this white sox and cubs stuff out of?
i dont think it wqill either shawn.. but dont forget the cubs do make last minute entrys 
Crisp is overrated. He hasn’t been good for two years. The Yankee deal is the best so far in regards to talent ready to contribute. Personally I would rather punch my mother than see Johan become a Yankee. I just wish the Mets had more MLB ready players to trade.
beanbrain,
from the daily hearald
guys you know where you get all the articles from,
every article you would want about the twins or any other team
You are somewhat right Jama I think the Sox are only in it to keep him from the Yankees, But I think the Yankees really want him and are just trying to Bully BS into taking there deal, So If you go back and Say we are taking the Mets Offer the Yankees WILL add More, Your Right the Sox Probably won’t. But The Yankees Will
I wouldn’t think the Red Sox would want Cuddyer; they have JD Drew already, a major financial investment. And the DH spot is taken by Ortiz. I doubt the Twins would trade Kevin Youklis; beside the Twins don’t need a first-baseman and just invested in Lamb at third-base, which is not Youklis’ position.
Boston seems to love Ellsbury
ya well we dont want ellsbury… same reason why we dont want lowell. their stats get very inflated with that left field being so short….
It’s about time people start agreeing with me, lol.
The Red Sox offer of Ellsbury, Lowrie, Masterson, and Bowden/Kalish/Moss, or whomever the mystery 4th player is going to be is the best offer on the table.
I like the KIDS the mets are offering, but are they sending their moms, dads, and a couple of starting razors because those kids can’t even shave yet.
2008 Post Allstar lineup
CF Ellsbury
SS Lowrie
CA Mauer (if he isn’t hurt)
RF Cuddyer (until he’s traded)
1B Morneau
LF Young (until he’s the RF)
DH Kubel
3B Lamb
2B Harris
This would be the best lineup the Twins have put on the field since 1991.
Liriano, Fogg, Baker, Chubby, Slowey/Perkins/Blackburn
We have to sign a pitcher like Fogg or someone to be a veteran inning eater, or we need a 13 man pitching staff.
The best solution for the Twins is too figure out a way too keep Johan as a twin. Obviously none of the deals are that great and if the Red Sox or Yankees get Johan you can forget about winning anything for about 5 years.
Why does everyone think that this Lowrie guy is, so great? If he was that great and MLB ready the Red Sox would have them as their starting SS. I’ve read reviews that say he’s not really a great fielding SS. And why does everyone think that it’s a good idea to get rid of Cuddy…Morneau is the one not signing contracts.
lion
How exactly did the short left field porch help Ellsbury? He isn’t a power hitter, I would assume a larger field would be beneficial due to his speed.
Ellsbury played in the minors before he played in Fenway. He also played in the coors field for the world series. His stats are not inflated. He is an excellent athlete.
I sort of agree Chad. In a perfect world I would love to have Johan on the Twins, as he is a great team player. He is always coming out with statments saying that he wants what is best for the Twins; however he also wants to win. He came out serveral times to the press last year stating that he was upset with the way the Twins run their team. He knew that it was only a matter of time before the Twins trade him. It’s what the Twins do… Trade vetrans.
I am gonna guess this is whats gonna happen with Johan, he is NOT gonna get traded, will play out the year with Pridie in CF, and lose Santana and the end of the year via FA and just get draft picks, because the twins keep dragging there feet. Thats not what I want them to do but thats what will happen
I also like the Lester deal.I think it gives the Twins the best combo of MLB ready talent and youth for the long haul.Lester helps to fill a void in the rotation and if the Twins are as high on Pridie as they claim they can spin Crisp off in another trade.Lowrie gives them more left side of the infield depth and Masterson could help a bullpen that has question marks.
Smith needs to remain at least competitive, and show that he’s not looking for a long term rebuilding process.If that is the plan, Morneau is as good as gone after ‘10.Once the Santana situation is done, signing Morneau needs to be the first priority.I will give a Smith a pass on having to let Hunter and Santana go because it was the former GM’s fault it came to this point.But if Morneau isn’t locked up, then we know that we’ve got real problems.
I agree 100% Doug!!
If we do resign Johan, you can forget about resigning Morneau, Cuddyer, and whoever else needs to be paid in the next couple years.
Personally I think Lester is overrated. He wins because he plays for the Red Sox. His ERA is Silva like and his BB to K isn’t that great. Granted he is young, but the Caberra/Hughes trade is better. http://mlb.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=452657
it appears smith hasn’t had an offer he thinks is good enough. the problem with waiting, however, is that 2 draft picks may not be players as good as the mets players and 2 instead of 4 or 5 and they will be from june of 09 draft making them another 2 or 3 years farther away than the mets guys. that pushes back any gain from santana to 11 or 12, long time to wait.
It cool that he is being patient and giving into the demands of the sox and yanks, BUT it might come back to bite him in the long run.
Christina-
You can’t use Coors Field as an example if you’re trying to prove Ellsbury’s stats aren’t inflated, humidor or no humidor. He played really well for about a month and that just happened to include the playoffs and Series. Over a full season he won’t be able to keep those stats at the same level. Don’t get me wrong, I think he’ll be a solid player and I like that package the best, but you have to admit that you’ve only got a very small sample size and he just happened to be in a zone at the time.
Good article, Joe. It’s good to see that BS is just as stubborn as I assumed he was. Well, it’s kind of good. It could really hurt us with his belief that one team pulling out won’t damage our cause. I think it will damage our cause. Plus, I just want this saga to end! Let’s get on with the offseason (what’s left of it).
NOT giving in it should say sorry
I’m not sold on the Lester deal. He too comes with some risk and I see highest ceiling being a very good No. 2 starter. I definitely agree that the Red Sox are selling “high” with Ellsbury.
If you’re trading the best pitcher on the planet, get the future best pitcher on the planet in return. Steinbrenner wants Santana no matter what he is saying. I think we should take the Phil Hughes trade with New York. Hughes has already proven he can pitch in the Majors last year.
I agree and i would rather have yyoung Melky in CF than old Coco.
Lester may be over rated and I would agree that Hughes is a better prospect than Lester,but I don’t think the Yankees are going to give up Hughes.I think Cashman has talked some sense into Hank and is prepared to start the season with the youngsters in the back end of the Yankee rotation.The Twins need someone from the Santana trade to be able to step into what is now a very questionable rotation.Lester may be the best option available.
If It comes down to the Mets, I would agree that their offer is better than two draft picks,but again I think that the Twins aren’t in a position to be looking that far down the road with a chip like Santana.They need to show their fans and the players they hope to build around that this isn’t going to be a complete rebuilding process.
Is anyone listening to or watching that hearing today?
Any new or interesting information being brought out in it?
Just wondering whats going on there..
Thanks
I too like the Crisp/Lester deal the best as of now. If we could get Crisp/Buchholz instead, then I’d be thrilled. But a gold glove-type center fielder with a decent contract, backing up an entire rotation wet behind the ears, and two Boston years removed from decent numbers - I’d take it. Lester’s shown enough. Then you have two guys in Lowrie and Masterson that may pan out instead of 4-5 from the Mets.
Doug-
The Twins won’t listen to anything the Yankees have to say if it doesn’t involve Hughes coming over as part of the deal. W/o Hughes there’s no deal. So if there really is still dialogue between the two teams and it’s not just Hanky posturing, then you’d have to think Hughes is still available.
I don’t like the Lester deal and obviously the Twins don’t care for so much either. Anyhting that brings Coco to the Twins is not a good move offensivly!
he hit 260 last year
jama,
because it helps his double rate instead of poping fly outs….
i think we need to get serious and find out if hughes is still available in the real world or if we lost out…if hes still on the table lets grab him and melky and whoever else they give up and lets go to spring training ….melky is as much a good bet as is ellsbury, or any other out there, as none of them have proven anything yet and we might just find out pridie is the best of the bunch, but i like having hughes, and then we need to go and empty the cupboard and see what veteran pitcher we can come up with to help rick anderson with these kids and also eat up some big innings and kinda lead this young staff….then i think if the twins kids can play like they did 2 years ago, along with our new additions, we can compete with anyone and i mean anyone….yes detroit and cleveland…see ya in the playoffs….
Wouldn’t a larger field also help his double’s rate? Or maybe even his triples rate?
The Twins desperately need a “name” player included in whatever trade is finally worked out. They need to show they didn’t give Johan away for a bunch of kids who won’t work their way off JV for a couple seasons.
This isn’t like it was with AJ - people wanted to see what Mauer would do. There isn’t a prospect that is pushing his way to the front of the line who makes trading Johan a luxury.
Jeez, I really want to keep him but there are so many players the Twins would lose in coming years to make it possible.
In the immortal words of Robert Hays in Airplane: “What a pi**er.”
I like it MJ, they could even go for Livan for a free agent pitcher. He is a veteran and eats innings like crazy.
The twins arent contending in 2008, im not trying to bring us all down, im just facing the facts…
Our best chance to contend in 2009-2014 is if we trade Johan to the Mets for Gomez/Martinez/Mulvey/Pelfrey
Lion - Jama is right, a larger field increases double/triple rates. More range for the outfielder to cover = greater chance of ball falling in.
A few thoughts:
1)If the Twins go the Mets route how many “potential” center fielders do they want? Span, Pridie, Gomez(from Mets), Martinez(possibly from Mets), and Revere(drafted high by Twins)?
2)Two things about the Twins attempts to get both Lester and Ellsbury. First, why are the Red Sox so hesitant to let Lester go? They would have Beckett, Santana, Matsuzaka, and Bucholtz under long term contracts. With their money they can always buy a fifth starter after Schilling/Wakefield retire. Second, maybe the Twins could sweeten their side of the deal. If they got Ellsbury(CF for long term), with Young in LF long term and Cuddyer in RF long term(hopefully) couldn’t the Twins send Pridie or Span to the Red Sox as a future replacement for Crisp in order to grease the wheels?
with all the increased chatter this week on the east coast either the trade will happen soon or smith will be caught with his d..k in his hand saying what happened? where did everybody go?
Jama,
Ellsbury’s key attribute is his SPEED and hustle. As long as his legs stay healthy, he will turn gap singles into doubles. If he has enough power, he could reach the friendly Fenway Wall. Triples in fenway usually are hit in that right center cavern.
Most Red Sox hitters have higher averages in Fenway than on the road (see Mike Lowell, for example and probably Jim Rice). The park does inflate ones numbers, but hey that’s reality and if Ellsbury can make use of the park, like Boggs did, great for the Sox and him. Whether Ellsbury would hit as well overall outside Fenway, we don’t know. He’s played 44 plus games.
#1..you have no idea whos going to contend and whos not, thats why they play these 162 games..now thats the reality..alot of things happen in those 162 games…..give me a break….
jason i saw your thing about lowrie above the reason he wasnt called up was because the sox have lugo under a big contract. There not just gonna send a guy with his contract down to the minors. So Lowrie has been stuck in the minors because of Lugo.
The Lester deal is actually the least appealing of all the proposals to me.
1. I think Lester is getting an evaluation bump because he is left handed.
2. Crisp is over rated because he had 2 pretty good years before he came to the Sox. I give more weight to the last 2 years.
3. Nobody in this deal projects to be a stud now or in the future, where the Yankees (Hughes), Sox II (Ellsbury) and Mets (Martinez) all have players that have stud potential.
I will be very disappointed if the Twins take the Lester deal.
[…] Joe Christensen, at the Minneapolis Star-Tribune, quotes Jim Callis, executive editor of Baseball America, who said that even if the Yankees were to include right-hander Ian Kennedy in their offer or the Mets were to include hitting phenom Fernando Martinez, neither team’s package would be better than the Lester-Crisp package (Callis’ first choice) or the Ellsbury (No. 2 for Callis) offer. […]
Jama, and his singles rates…
Ellsbury, Lowrie, Masterson, and whomever….
Lowrie doesn’t have great range, and has a decent glove. He will never win a gold glove at SS, but I’m not sure any Twin has ever won a gold glove at SS so quiet down on that one. This kid however has a great onbase percentage, a nice short compact swing, a great eye at the plate. They say he has the best eye at the plate of any prospect in their system since Boggs. He has 30 double capablity right now.
Why didn’t they bring him up? They didn’t need to. They had Pedroia that could come in at 2B-SS ahead of him, and they had a SS and 2B already starting until Pedroia beat out Lugo at 2nd base.
Also he played 120 games in AA and came up to AAA at the end of the season. He is going to start 2008 in AAA for the Red Sox and will be with them by the All Star break if we don’t get him now.
We had a shot at Ellsbury last year before he’d had an official atbat, and chickened out.
He was offered in a deal for Torii Hunter, but Terry “No Balls and 3 strikes” Ryan didn’t pull the trigger. We cannot make that same mistake twice.
And as for the Mets offer. That is a GREAT GREAT GREAT fall back plan in case you cannot get what you want. Martinez, Gomez, Humber, Guerra, Pelfry… or whomeever that 3rd pitcher is… that’s a heck of a deal if you can’t get Ellsbury.
Keep holding out, and hope that either a 4th team pops in, or that Theo sees the Yankees as making another move, and this can get done.
I want it done by the end of the week, but I’m married with children. I don’t get what I want anymore. I only get what’s left over… kind of like Trickle down economics… I get the crumbs.
i think the only ways the twins would contend in 2008 sign santana long term and liriano comes back full strength or we trade santana and somehow get the bosox to include a deal with lester and ellsbury and lowrie just those 3 for maybe santana, swarzak, and blackburn. if they would bite whichn i dunno if they would.
I hope the Yankees arent legitimately out of it…with the Yanks and Twins no longer talking, there is much less incentive for the Bosox to raise their offer now…If there was a time they ever would have ponied up Lester/Ellsbury/Lowrie, that time is especially gone now that the Yankees are out of it.
I hate to say it but I feel like the Twins leverage has taken a turn for the worse the past couple days.
Unless Hank goes back on his word again..(please!)
kraig-
The redSox have no reason to sweeten the deal and include both Lester and Ellsbury,especially if the Yankees are reconsidering their interest.The Sox also really don’t want to give up Ellsbury at all because RedSox Nation is in love with the guy.Thats why the Ellsbury deal doesn’t contain what the Twins need out of any deal for Santana,a ready to put in the rotation arm.The Lester side of the deal plus a CF option in Crisp.I realize almost no one thinks Crisp is acceptable,but like I said earlier,he can be spun in another trade.Pridie could play CF for the Twins and they would probably get the same production as they would with Ellsbury (take a look at both players ‘07 AAA stats.)
well hank said that the yanks arent out of it yet there still is “little talk” and this isnt the first time hank tried to pull out he came back and he will again. Joba is only gonna last at most 180 innings this year and if hughes gets hurt somehow they know the are royally screwed.
well i think if we want ellsbury and lester the twins are gonna have to sweeten their deal to make it worth it for the sox
the deal should get done very soon with the cubbys
santana and nathan for the cubs farm.
pie marmol veal ghallager harvey and that weird spelling name
justin,
santana is worth bulcholtz not ellsbury or lester or both… both of them are not very good we need a center fielder with home run potential with speed (gomez) and a future ace (guerra bulcholtz hughes) this ellsbury and lester junk is just making the boston red soxs stupid.. come on red soxs make a real offer….
liondragon-
I do not think the cubs will trade for Santana
but if they somehow do, we shold be asking for vitters in any deal to play 3B
mets might fall out for santana for bedard instead
Bill Smith’s effectiveness as a GM is on the line in his first winter on the job.
None of the packages that are supposedly (nobody knows for sure if they really are) “on the table” give the Twins fair value for the best pitcher in baseball. While the rest of us can debate this, it’s clear that the TWINS don’t feel fair value has been offered… yet.
Given that, if BS caves in and accepts a deal they feel is not “fair”, he will be sending a signal that teams can take advantage of him in the future. He can’t afford that.
At this point, if nobody raises their offers, BS has to keep Johan Santana, at least to start the season. If the Twins stage a legitimate challenge, they keep him all year (and may or may not try to negotiate a new contract during the season).
If they fall out of contention early, they can try to get Santana to waive his NTC to be traded to a contender, from whom the Twins would expect to get a solid package of prospects.
Losing Santana for the 2 draft picks would be unfortunate… but in that event, there would still be 2-3 teams who will NOT get him as a FA but will know they COULD have had him, if they had just sweetened their deal a little bit… and they’ll know that in the future, it doesn’t pay off to play chicken with BS.
How this plays out has SO much more riding on it than simply what package is included in this one transaction.
Scouting Report: Lowrie is an intelligent shortstop with a decent glove and average range. His arm is strong but he needs to work on his throwing accuracy. May be moved to 2B, but his strong work ethic and improving defense is increasing the chances he could stick at SS, where he could probably play the position adequately at the MLB level. Above average speed on the basepaths. He demonstrated plus power for a middle infielder in college, but at this point he looks to have doubles power and not a lot of home run pop. Hits for average very well, and equally from both sides of the plate. Outstanding plate discipline, in true Red Sox form his best attribute may be his ability to work pitchers for good at bats. Fundamental and athletic. Lowrie could use another half-season at AAA, but if he played for a smaller market team he would probably start the 2008 season in the majors.
how about we get a 3 way trade going?
twins:roberts,marmol,harvey,veal,ghallager
cubs:santana,bedard,nathan
orioles:hill,pie,Patterson,Colvin,Pawelek
thoughts?
I like the Ellsbury deal, if the Twins are reasonably confident that Liriano will come back close to where he was?
The Bill James baseball handbook has Ellsbury projected at .320/.374/.436 with a .810 OPS over a full year. Not as good as last year…but pretty good. Also, with his speed they think he will exceed over 80% of the time for +32 (42 SB-10 CS). He is projected to have 29 doubles and 5 triples…so that’s 66 times in scoring position…that’s alot of scoring opportunities.
Otherwise, I like the Hughes trade. There is every indication that he is a probable ACE. Good control (1.28 WHIP), doe not allow alot of hits (.235/.313/.386). He’s done this at all levels.
The Lester deal does not excite me in the least. Coco’s good defensively, but he would be a poor leadoff hitter. This deal does seem to have an impact player, in my view, for the present or the future like Ellsbury or Hughes could.
yes i think we really want vitters but i dont think we can take him till a year after the draft…
Scouting Report: Amazing athlete with a great work ethic. Ellsbury has consistently won awards for his defensive play in centerfield. He is extremely fast and knows how to run the bases (but does get picked off a little too often). Great on base ability. Gap power with the ability to leg singles into doubles and doubles into triples. Not much home run power, doesn’t project to add a lot either. Projects well as a major league lead-off hitter. Doesn’t slump too often because you can’t turn off his blazing speed. Team leader. Lettered and excelled in five sports in high school, including football, where he could have played at a very high collegiate level as a kickoff returner. However, he enjoys baseball the most. Could stand to bulk up a little bit. Arm strength is average.
hey guys.. hughes is ok.. but you know who else was a almost certain ace? prior…
you never know on pitchers
liondragon i think the cubs want roberts and the twins want pie switch those 2 and we would have to give blackburn to the orioles to make it up to them.
Scouting Report: Big righty with an ideal pitcher’s build. Dominated the Cape Cod League in 2005. Masterson has a three-quarter delivery with a slinging-type motion. His arsenal includes a sinker, a slider, and a change-up. Of those pitches, his best is a phenomenal plus-sinker with an excellent heavy drop — he can vary its speed from 84-94 mph, catching many hitters off balance. Also mixes in a very good slider that sits in the low 80s, and an improving 77-81 mph four-seam circle change. Uses his sinker predominantly as his out-pitch, but also can make use of his secondary pitches to get out of jams. His mix of pitches results in a high groundball-to-flyball ratio, getting a lot of double plays. Very good command of the zone. Prepares well for every game and pitches with confidence on the mound. Strong character, Masterson is one of the most likable persons and teammates going. Could stand to mix in his changeup a bit more. Converted to a starter in 2007 after coming out of the pen for Lowell in 2006, may still project as a reliever at this point depending on how well his change-up progresses. Needs to work on keeping his delivery consistent deep into games. Ultimately, Masterson’s ceiling is a #2 starter or a dominant set-up man.
JimCrikket-
Valid points but I don’t think the fans or GM’s can or should judge BS on what transpires concerning Santana.BS has been hamstrung from the start of these trade talks because of the situation he was put in.Theo knows this,Cashman knows this, and so does Omar.Thats not going to stop them from trying to take full advantage of it,but I don’t think It will adversely affect how GM’s feel they can deal with him in the future.
What will affect Smiths status is how he is allowed to operate from the point AFTER he completes any Santana trade.If the Twins as an organization don’t show long term commitment to futre FA’s like Morneau then every GM will realize that its business as usual, and just wait the Twins out.I’m pretty confident that Smith,if he’s allowed to, won’t make the same mistakes Ryan made.If he does it will probably mean Ryan didn’t have the means to do any better than he did.
justin,
but if we get roberts that could be our lead off guy and we want a proven guy..
Jed Lowrie
http://www.sonsofsamhorn.net/wiki/index.php/Jed_Lowrie
see for yourself what they say about Lowrie… starts off with his defense, and then shows the kid’s amazing numbers offensively.
yeah but the cubs have been trying to trade for roberts all off-season pretty sure they would do that trade unless they got roberts
Lion…
There is no way that the three team trade you proposed could happen.
Picking up two star starting pitchers, and a top 5 closer in one trade… it’s never happened before in the history of baseball.
The Cubs want Roberts, the Twins don’t.
And whate exactly are the Twins giving the Orioles in a deal like that?
in three way trades teams usually have to give and take from both…
I can tell you’re a huge Cubs fan, but it’s not a fair trade you propose…
Johan to the Yankees for Hughes, Jackson, Marquez, and Horne
Nathan to the Cubbies for Pie
Thats what id do if i was Bill Smith
red sox, ellsbury deal, with bowden or moss, i agree bc, pull the trigger.
ellsbury deal trade for pie with nathan or a young mlb pitcher if we get pie have him and ellsbury compete for starting in CF the other goes to AAA aka back up plan if one doesnt pan out or if both blossum its not a bad problem to have 4 good young OF and if we are out of contention by all-star break trade cuddy put delmon in RF and pie in left get for cuddy get someone who could fill our biggest need at that time to prepare for 09′ season
ha ha bc,
im not even close to a cubs fan… im a die-hard twins fan… its just i was trying to make it more even because last time i made a 3 way trade idea you guys said i lopsided the twins by a lot…
I think if the Twins would like to get more teams involved they should give Santana a 1 year 20 million extention and make it know to Sanatana that this extention is to make it easier to trade him and that it will not include a no trade clause. This way a team trading for him would have 2 years to lock him up. Now if he is signed for 2 years the Twins would start getting offers from other teams.
i dunno if santana would do that he wants the big cash by next season
David, why in the world would Santana agree to that, when he can leave after this year and get 6-7 years and $20MM?
Justin I made the exact same comments on Ellsbury and Pie deals about 9-10 times in the last two weeks…
I even changed it to the Mets deal and the Pie deal. Either way get two CF prospects, and if they both succeed, then Cuddyer is not long for the world as a Twins player.
Why did we ever get so hooked on a deal for Lester? In my opinion, he’s not even the Sawx best pithcing prospect, Buchholz is. Without him in a deal, Phillip Hughes is to me the best prospect discussed. A package involvong Hughes, Horne, Jackson, and a 4th would work for me.
Jon,
The only problem with your choice of players is that the Yankees are not willing to part with all those players. If the Yankees offered them the deal would have happened long time ago. Other than Hughes they offered Melky and Marquez. How do you feel about this package?
not a Melky fan. I really want Jackson in that deal. Even if we received Marquez instead of Horne
I think the Yanks would do Jackson with Marquez, or so I’ve heard. the fourth could be a lower prospect
Now why would the Boston Herald quote two experts saying the Red Sox have offered the best players in a deal for Santana? And the best offer of all is from the Mets? All kids and unproven. Please. Think about that.
I’m willing to bet you can find two other experts, probably more, saying the Yankees’ offer is better for the Twins at this very moment. Especially if Kennedy is included with Hughes and Cabrera.
Joe, this piece was written for one reason only: Boston media would like to see Santana a Red Sox, because they know they are really not losing much by giving up the players suggested.
Ahh, but if he can’t be a Red Sox, then he’d better become a Met. Anything but a Yankee. It’s a garbage piece.
I hate to say it, but to compete right now and in the future, the Yankee offer is the best fit for the Twins.
You should have sniffed this one out, Joe.
the only team not talking is the red sox. the mets are now saying they are discussing bedard and hank is trying to pretend to be out of it. imo all parties are getting tired of this and want to move on one way or the other and you can’t blame them. i hope smith isn’t over playing his hand.
trading nathan for pie would make the santana deal easier because we wouldn’t need a cf/of ready to play until cuddy and or morneau are traded assuming they will be to expensive for the twins by next winter.
agreed Bingo
Just get Jackson in any Hughes deal
can anyone tell me how the twins got the first overall pick in 01? cause they sure didnt have the worst record…
the deal is done!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
nice trade
lion the twins had the worst record in the al and the cubs in the nl. i don’t know how they decide which leagues loser picks first.
Santana to Boston for Garnett and Moss. Perhaps a package to Boston for Moss, Big Papi and Phil Kessel might also work.
trigger has been pulled
Anybody read the newspaper’s report on the jobless? Says the state of Minnesota is in a recession.
That is why Carl Pohlad won’t resign Santana… he has to find another Minnesotan in the minors, Perkins, Mauer, Neshak…
See what he’s doing for the state of Minnesota!!!! He’s a real patriot. A real sweet guy, and the kind of guy that Minnesota should be proud of.
I also read that Macys is cutting 100 jobs in Minnesota.
I wonder if that counts in the 23000 plus jobless claims that are currently open for the state… and I wonder how many people that are past their eligiblity for unemployment are out there still looking for jobs.
I wonder how this will effect me when I’m done with school in March and I’m looking for a loan to open up a new business?
I need a Santana trade so I don’t get depressed!
Joe,
I apologize for my previous comments. I just read your piece about the Twins possibly overplaying their hand. You clearly see what’s going on with Boston.
I agree that the Twins may be overplaying their hand. But even if they’re not, is keeping Johan a part of the team until August actually good for the team. Speculation about Santana will be all over the papers daily. What if Johan has a great first half, but the teams able to afford him have no reason to pick him up until the season is over? What then? Remember Torii Hunter?
I say if you’re going to trade Johan and not sign him, trade him before the season starts so the team can move forward and the circus can move on.
is there a trade that just happened?
no, apparently not
ya scott rolen for glause
no santana though 
so sad
gosh i wish a santana trade happens by the end of the week.. i want it to happen by the 19th
Bingo,
BINGO!
And just like the scouting reports cited here are from pro-Boston websites.
That’s not to say Ellsbury isn’t a good player or potentially very good player for a slap-hitter with blazing speed (not the next Mickey Mantle or even better in Red Sox minds, Fred Lynn - just a Kenny Lofton, at best)
And Lowrie is potentially a better hitter with power at shortstop than Ripkin and a young A-Rod. If he was that good - -and I doubt he’s in Brandon Wood’s class - the Sox would have had him up, instead of investing in Orlando Cabrera and, at least, Julio Lugo (both very good ss).
And Masterson is Don Drysdale-esque, a potential number 2 starter, I read.
Dang, now I know why Philip Hughes is marginalize - Masterson is not even considered as good as Buchholz and Lester lol
To be fair, most scouting reports are generated by the home team and bolster their prospects. The Yankee scouting reports do the same things.
It’s a roll of the dice and the experts take their best guess with young players. Some are sure things - but I don’t see any Mantles or Mays being tossed about. Maybe a Clemens-type in Hughes and Buchholz.
The Twins scountshave shown they have good eyes. If Lowrie and Masterson wre sure bets (as good as these reports say) the deal with Ellsbury would be a no-brainer Maybe that will be the deal. Who knows for sure.
Okay. Seriously…no team is going to trade for both Santana AND Nathan. Both are top shelf players with only a year left on their respective contracts.
The kind of talent the Twins would want back coupled with the kind of money they’d have to offer would kill that deal before it’s suggested.
Think of it like this. The Twins are having a hard enough time getting NY and BOS to take on Santana’s contract alone. Now factor in that they’d have to come up with funds for Nathan as well?
And what do Boston and NY also have in common? They don’t need Nathan. Boston has Papelbon, NY has Rivera.
Wouldn’t it be interesting to know what deals are still actually on the table?
Part of me believes that it is as likely that the reason no deal has been made yet is that both the Ellsbury deal and the Hughes are no longer available (and maybe haven’t been for a while) as it is BS is still waiting for those deals to get better.
Of course, there is no way to know about any of this and what could happen is a deal that was not even in the rumored.
Tate,
Hank Steinbrenner - he who no one believes and thinks is a blow hard - said Yankees don’t have an offer OFFICIALLY on the table. To me that means, the Twins are sticking to what they want and have not responded to what was a Yankee counter proposal.
As for Boston, I read speculation that Jacoby Ellsbury was off the table. In fact Boston and its fans talk like their opening day centerfielder is Jacoby Ellsbury. (though the fact Coco Crisp hasnt been traded yet gives one pause, but maybe Crisp is insurance for Mr. injury JD Drew.
It could be Lester et al or the Mets — or bust
Cubs might have interest in Nathan. Only problem is, once we trade Santana, we have no leverage on Nathan. Teams won’t give us squat.
Roundabout,
I agree, scouting reports are definitely shaded and depending on your own scouts is the key.
We shall see how this all turns out. Usually the Twins are the team that gets gold for a trade of silver or copper. This time they have gold(Santana), like last year(Hunter). Will they get gold for gold? I’m not sure. They certainly didn’t last year. Then again, so far they did very well this offseason.
Bingo,
Yep, the Twins have a rep of having a sharp eye for talent (no one is perfect and we only really know abiut the successes)
I am sure the Twins wish they can choose from columns A, B, C and possible D - They can’t. And I am sure the reason the Twins havent pulled the trigger is they have not gotten what they wanted or enough of what they wanted.
Thet begs the question - will they with the market ABLE to trade for Santana so thin and possibly getting thinner.
No team would say no to acquiring Johan Santana.
id still take the lester deal over the mets offer without f-mart and gomez trade nathan to cubs for pie we get a center fielder pitcher and maybe a couple of future studs in lowrie and masterson
We here in Boston do think of Ellsbury as being on the team, no doubt.
Coco is actually a great guy and outstanding defender and I don’t think there will be any problem getting value for him when the dust settles (maybe even to the Twins outside of a Santana trade.) If he would stand for it, he’d also be the best 4th outfielder in the majors - you’re right, with JD (and Manny actually) a reserve that is yet to be determined could get a fair amount of playing time.
All I’ll say is that if the past is any indicator Theo sticks firm to his evaluations and if anything has changed it’s that there is 1 Sox deal now and not 2. You have to understand, for us starting the season with our team now and having Santana stay with the Twins is a big win/win.
Roundabout.
How’s it going?
Relax, the speculation is as it always will be.
And though I like the Yankees more, I will state that I think the Red Sox offer of Ellsbury and Lowrie with the other parts is the best offer on the table. It fills more needs right now.
And while Hughes is fanstastic… I look at the team’s need of a leadoff CF as a higher priority, and whiel I will say on a level of 1-100 that Hughes is a 95, and Ellsbury is probably only an 89-90.. that the rest of the package is better than the Yankees.
I don’t look at Caberera as our starting CF, and the Yankees don’t think of him as their starting anything.
I did take a bit of bite from your comment about how Cabrera is better than anything we have in the outfield.
He is not better than Cuddyer or Young. He is better than anything we have in CF… which at this point in time is anything with a heartbeat not named Span.
Cuddyer is an amazing defensive RF with 20 homer capablity, and Young is a sure shot future star outfielder according to EVERYTHING I’ve ever read… I still think he was the least talented of the 4 outfielders (Dukes not Baldelli) that the Devil Rays had, but still he’s better than Cabrera)
Red Sox offers are safe. Yankees aren’t good enough. With Santana I would rather try and hit a home run than play it safe. I take the Mets deal of: Fmart, Gomez, Guerra, and Mulvey and or Pelfry. I trade Nathan to the Cubs for Vitters and others. Gomez is 21 compared to Ellsbury’s 24. Is as good (if not better) defensively and on the basebaths. Better power potential. Fmart is comparable to Lowrie. I think Guerra will be the Liriano of the trade. A GEM at the age of 18! Higher potential than Masterson. Throw in Mulvey and/or Pelfrey and its a winner.
The only problem with the Mets trade is that we won’t compete in 08. I’m ok with that.
With all of this crazy talk about trading with the Cubs, I say trade something for Jeff Smarzdija (spelling?) and donate him during the off-season to the Vikings to replace Troy Williamsen. Maybe Pohlad could use the donation as a tax write-off and save a few more dollars.
Yea and us Twins fans wish the Twins had an owner that would resign Santana instead of trying to get a trade!! The Twins are much better off WITH Santana than without and some prospects. SANTANA has proven himself to be one of the best if not the Best pitcher in the game!! He just can’t do it all himself
JP
I thought it was clear that you are not going to get Gomez AND F-Mart in the same trade.
BC,
I am fine. Enjoying the baseball talk.
I think the Red Sox offer is more balanced, not necessarily that superior. Red Sox are not offering anyone of the caliber potentially of Philip Hughes. I’ve seen him pitch when healthy last year ( 2.66 ERA last three starts and 1 run with six Ks in 5 innings against Cleveland)
I’d be very happy if the Yanks keep Hughes and then don’t trade for Johan Santana. That’s my heart talking. My head says make the deal cause Santana is the best and championships would follow. I am a fan and in this case my heart leads me.yada yada yada. You’ve read this rap before.
I’ll take the consequences as a fan. I have faith in Hughes, Joba, Kennedy, Melky, Cano and the other kids. Maybe that’s because I want - go back to my youth of rooting for home grown kids (Mel Stot, Murcer,Ellis, Jerry Kenny, Steve Whitaker, Fritz Peterson and Mike Kekich, then Munson, Mattingly, onto Williams, Jeter, Rivera, Pettitte etc)
As a correction, I said Melky was better than your centerfielder (me being a brat knowing quite well you don’t have a centerfielder). As I’ve said I think Melky is a good player and will get better. He’s only 23.
And yes Cuddyer is a good player, though I don’t think of him as special, not yet. (I had him in fantasy baseball for part of one year and he didn’t play well; the following year he broke out in 2006)
I like Delmon Young, also. Like I said he’sone of those players who have been pounding the ball since diapers. Tampa had doubts about his attitude, I think.
Vitters is not tradeable until this summer.
Tate - I think the one team that might blink and do something beyond what we think is the Mets. They need him more than anyone, and Minaya has a track record of taking chances and trading prospects. There was also the talk of him being authorized to do whatever it takes to get Santana. BS seems to be playing it stubbornly, and the Mets could blink. And I’ve never said that about the Yankees or Sox.
Deal is done; Santana to the Yankees for A-Rod, Jeter, Cano, and Joba. Way to go Bill Smith!*
*This was my dream last night.
Dennis - I completely agree. I mentioned on another post that the Mets are by far your best chance of getting someone to cave. The combination of desperation and Minaya (you say taking chances some may say reckless) is a wild card.
On the other hand if the Mets do sign Bedard (and who the hell knows if any of that is real) the music is going to stop and you had better find a chair to sit in, I think.
if you are looking forward to draft picks:
97: cuddy/lecroy
98: ryan mills
99: bj garbe
00: adam johnson/aaron heilman
01: mauer
02: span
03: matt moses
04: plouffe/perkins
05: garza/henry sanchez
big crap shoot and these are 1st rounders
Robert,
And your owner’s heart broke at the payroll adjustment.. unless the Yanks agreed to pay the salaries of the four players, as well
He is the great Johan Santana
Tate
I am confident a trade doesn’t happen with the Mets without both. They didn’t even get a response from Balt for Bedard not including both. I assume that the prospects are going to be similar in what it takes to land either Berard or Santana. Compare the two pitchers. Santana has no history of injury, was always babied and on a strict pitch count. He has a PROVEN track record. Berard injuries and only one GREAT year. You might say money is the hold up. The METS WILL have to pay Berdard in two years, and the way the market is going he might be MORE expensive long term than Santana. Plus we’re talking the METS here. The owner has already given the blessing from a financial standpoint. So the arguement that Santana is more expensive holds no water. The question here is prospects. And if Berdard requires the same in prospects as Santana. IMO then you take Santana.
JP - I agree that the Mets might pony up the farm to win now and the report that they prefer Bedard also seems a little off to me. So, there you go - a possibility for sure.
From a Sox perspective (and I would think a Yankees’ perspective as well) Santana on the Mets is a win. He doesn’t help us, but he doesn’t hurt us and NYM are still behind many AL teams as threats to stop us from winning the WS.
A Mets deal that includes F-mart as well as Gomez, Mulvey, and Guerra along with another prospect will be what it takes for the Mets to be considered. Also, Boston must replace Crisp with Ellsbury. If not, I’d take the Ellsbury, Lowrie, Masterson, and prospect. Hopefully Bowden. But I’d still prefer to see Twins sign Santana to 5 year extension
how about this?
santana for f-mart gomez guerra pelfrey?
take out humber and mulvey put in f-mart and pelfrey. anderson is known to make a pitcher with potential show his stuff…
this way everyone is happy 
Forget the Cubs. They are still for sale and having given money to Zambrano and Fokudome (spelling?) they aren’t in the mix.
Too bad, since I wouldn’t mind seeing him pitch here in Chicago on the northside.
I agree 100% on the RedSox. Getting Santana is a luxury not a necessity. The Yankees are in a more precarious situation. There are counting on either aging or unproven pitchers. The only pitcher I think they can count on is Wang. And he is more of a #2 or #3. Jaba and Hughes have never come close to the workload that will be required of them. I still think Jaba is a lock for the DL. Who knows if Hughes and or Kennedy pan out. Remember Homer Bailey? Guy rated very similar to Hughes.
If you’re gonna have a young starting staff you better have a deep and good bullpen. WHICH the yankees do not have. They’ve invested a lot of money in aging stars. I don’t see Posada repeating his numbers. Jeter I think is on the decline. 1st base is a joke. Abreu is not getting better. I see a lot of problems. And if you’re the Yankees it probably makes more sense to keep your talent and try and get younger/ cheaper. But IMO they are two years away minimum. And I’m not sure the FO or the fans can handle that.
So far all of these offers have been awful
NO Lester+Ellsbury deals
NO Gomez+Martinez deals
NO Hughes+ anyone good deals
And from what i have been reading, the other teams involved in trade discussions have not allowed Santana to be signed for more than five years.
With no good trade offers, and nearly all other teams not allowing Santana to be signed for more than five years, why cant the Twins sign him? I dont think Santana hates Minnesota, and maybe Santana will understand nearly every team will not sign him for more than five years, so than maybe he will sign an extension at 22mil a year for 5 years.
As i have stated before though, i realize that we have the money to sign Santana,Mormeau,Cuddyer,Young, and others, I do not want Santana signed if we do not then sign Young,Morneau,and Mauer. There is absolutely no excuse though to sign them all though.
Lion,
I think that would be a good deal, better than anything known to be currently offered.
Tate
I also think if the Mets got Santana you might want to be a little more worried about them. If Pedro comes back healthier (he looked pretty good at the end of last year) you have Santana, Pedro, Maine to achor the front of the rotation. You haven’t given up Reyes, or Wright. There would be a lot of talent on that team. Enough to compete in the WS where you’d face Santana three times, Pedro twic. and where anything can happen.
JP
I would not want to trust Wang if i was the yankees. I can not understand how he is trust worthy, he got smoked by the Indians, and i thought he was over rated to begin with. You are right though, he is a #3 guy. I do not understand why the Mets and Yankees are not more agressive to get this done. I can see why the Red Sox are not in a desperate need though. I also do not get why yankees are happy with seeing santana going to the Mets as a good thing since the Red Sox dont get him. At what point does a team say we need to win now, we have Wang, unproven youngsters, and old man Pettite, we need Santana. I wonder if Hank is the only one that realizes that if he does not have Santana, the Red Sox will be beating them in the playoffs for the next 4 years or so.
Tyler,
I really believe Boston or the Mets will step up and do deals that includes both. Early Feb. So hold tight.
5 years for $22 million plus and option for a 6th year @ $25. That is 7 years total, I think he would do that and I think we could do that and sign Morneau, Mauer, Cuddy, etc.
Cerrone had this posted on metsblog.com.
Not sure how I feel about Chien-Ming Wang, and he has not even been discussed as a possibility…but what about it? More affordable years of Wang vs. the eventual loss of Santana for the Twins?
…as a Mets fan who wants to see santana in blue and orange next season, this is why i worry about the Yankees…because, it would not surprise me to see them flip these talks around, shift gears, and secretly offer up a player like Chien-Ming Wang, who is arbitration-eligible following this coming season, after which he’ll likely be paid roughly $10 million per-year each of the following three seasons, before being eligible for free agency after 2011…
…remember, according to multiple reports, the Twins did offer santana a four-year deal worth nearly $20 million per season…so, bringing on a back-to-back 19–game winner for half that money, through the same time frame, could be the type of impact player who fans may pat smith on the back for…
Comments?
“Now why would the Boston Herald quote two experts saying the Red Sox have offered the best players in a deal for Santana? And the best offer of all is from the Mets? All kids and unproven. Please. Think about that.”
Callis is Exec. Dir. of Baseball America and Manuel did the rankings of the Yankee prospects for Baseball America this year. Yes, there’s other experts out there, but Baseball America has great standing in evaluating prospects. Why do you blame Christensen for quoting them? I’d think the avg fan would like to know what BA thinks of the offers no?
Maybe I’m way too AL centric, but I really think that all NL players have their stats inflated by the relative weakness of the league (perhaps if the Sox had lost a single game in the last 2 WS or NL had won any all star game in the last decade I’d feel differently.)
I’ll also admit to being a little AL East centric, but I think that with Indians and Tigers both our divisions are way better than anything the NL has to offer and the road to the WS is much tougher.
If the Twins are not going to sign Santana. They need to trade quickly before other teams start pulling out. Did you guys hear some people think Bedard is better than Santana?
I know the Twins won’t sign Santana. A man can still hope though. I think it is still the best option. I don’t see how Ellsbury or Cabrera would be that much better than Pridie. I think Pridie is better than most of you think.
Dan, Some think Bedard is better because he’s
Younger
and will be
Cheaper.
But yet he’s not matched Santana in innings, and was hurt last year. Don’t get it.
Robert,
Agreed! Pridie has a ton of upside.
I read the article where the BA guys were quoted. I think that they are a little RS biased. Maybe it was the author taking things out of context.
Manual, who prefers the RedSox deal states that Lester will be a #3. Hmmm. Later in the article, while ‘bashing’ the yankee prospects, they project Marquez as a middle of rotation guy. Admittedly he is father away, but he is also not the centerpiece of the deal. Admittedly, neither BA nor the Twins seem to think much of Melky, but how can you choose the Lester, Crisp deal. At best, Crisp is a great defender that is a poor batter with low OBP.
And as of now, he will be our opening day center fielder
Funkytown
Santana is actually younger and Santana has been could for a while Bedard has only had one could year.
I meet good year not could year.
haha, how did you mix up good and could?? Twice??
I’ve floated a question out there for about a week without a response.If a speculated outfield for 09 were Young/Gomez/F-Mart,would Cutty be a viable obtion at third?Last time he played there he was nervously trying to make our roster for the last time and the possibility of being cut and never making a ML roster.Now that has started for 2yrs and gotten paid,a relaxed Cutty might be more comfortable moving back to third.Remember that Koskie turned himself into a good 3b through hard work.Cutty seems to have the same work ethic.Don’t remember if Cutty was brutal or not the first time they tried him at third.If he could take over at third after 2yrs of Lamb,he could be our answer at third
JP,
You right the Yanks aging. I don’t think Jeter is going down hill. He’s marching toward 3,000 hits and keeps in shape (he’s 33 this year). Posada, Rivera, Pettitte, and Damon are getting up in years but still have a few good seasons left. Abreu will still knock in 100 runs, score 100 and steal 25 bases. I am not counting on Giambi, but he did hit 37 HR two years ago. He’s a wild card.
On the farm the Yanks got some yougn outfielders, maybe too young.
And the Yanks must find out about their young pitchers.
Now the Red Sox, Varitek is close to done (their back up is useless) Ortiz had a bum knee and is overweight; Lowell is up there in years, but still can play. Manny has had two down seasons, aging and who the hell knows what he’s thinking; JD Drew, you want to depend on Mr. Injury.
OK, so the Red Sox will get younger in center, second base, and Youklis is solid at first. Pitching, Schilling is downhill; Dice K, we don’t know he can go a whole season. Wakefield is a knuckler; Beckett is solid, Clay Buchholz and Jon Lester are young and in the same ball park as the Yankees youngins.
The Twins? The less said the better at this point.
sorry.my bad
Now that the posts have calmed down a little I was hoping to sneak in a longer post that relates back to the original story here; how the rumored trades stack up to each other and the analysis that the Lester based trade might be best for the Twins.
I know that those of you that somehow think the story is bias won’t be any more swayed by what famous Bostonian Peter Gammons thinks, but he had some interesting (and flattering) things to say about Lester in a recent chat on the Boston Globe’s web site:
“One of the most interesting things about the winter meetings was that Red Sox pitching coach John Farrell was passionate about his case for Jon Lester becoming their equivalent of a young Pettitte. His velocity should be back to where it was 2 years ago come spring training. His breaking ball and changeup improved dramatically in the postseason. And if you go back and look at DVD of Game 4 and watch his presence given the opportunity to clinch the World Series, it’s remarkable. After the Cleveland series, the Indians front office, coaches, and player personnel people had a meeting and it was unanimously agreed that after Josh Beckett, the best pitcher on the Red Sox was Lester. That doesn’t include Papelbon, different category.”
Gammons also says that thinking about it more and more the Red Sox would be better off not making the Santana trade (not surprisingly given his comments here). So, you may want to take that in to consideration.
I only post this because I sense an almost universal discounting of Lester since I’ve been looking in on these boards (with Justin and a couple of other dissenters) and I’m not sure it’s completely warranted. Is he going to replace Santana? No, but how many pitchers could? Still, I suggest you do what Peter Gammons suggests and go back and watch the DVD of game 4 of the World Series and you may realize that in addition to improving stuff Lester has a pretty incredible make-up.
Like all fans (and maybe a little more so) we’re attached to our guys here in Boston, but when you see Ellsbury and Lester answer the bell like they did when it mattered the most - those are the guys you want to keep with you. Perhaps you believe one extraordinary player (Santana) is worth an entire farm system so you can re-make the team and maybe the Mets will give you that, but we’d be happy to take our chances with the guys we’ve brought up and who have already struck gold.
Geno
IMHO Cuddy does not have the “fast twitch muscle” to play MLB 3rd base. I feel this is why he struggled, his focus interiorized and his head got F’ed up. Damn good RF though.
Tate,
I certainly can’t knock your take, and if Lester had been our homegrown talent I’m sure we’d feel the same way. I don’t think most people’s issue is with Lester per se, but rather that he’s stuck in a scenario with Crisp. I know you’ve defended Crisp too, but together…it’s just a bit underwhelming.
I know how you feel about Ellsbury as well, but I think an Ells/Lester/Lowrie package would end this whole thing.
With Boston in the position they are…defending Champs, strong rotation, feeling good about the club…that deal seems unlikely. However, if you we’re in the Yanks or Mets position (talent for talent), I don’t think those guys would be as untouchable as they are currently.
So…we’ll continue to wait.
cuddy is a rf ….period..period…period….no move experimenting with this guy..those days are over……period
Tate,
I think the Boston deals probably are more balanced for the Twins than the Yankee deal, filling more of their holes.
I was poking fun at the scouting reports and comments exalting the Red Sox prospects as the second coming of a Mantle or Ripkin at shortstop.
Ellsbury’s got speed, and slaps the ball; his speed gives him range in center, with a weak arm. Not exactly greatness, but the scouting report and comments give you a different views. Now Jed Lowrie is the Cal Ripkin or a Garciaparra. Look at those numbers, some gush. He has yet to face consistent major league pitching.
While I like Melky and think he will get better, others don’t. That’s fine. I see his flaws.
And Hughes is one pitcher, still not a proven ace, unlike the greatness of Lester, of course, or Masterson being a number 2. People boast abotu Lester being a middle of the rotation pitcher, with Masterson. Yet Hughes, one of the best prospects, is injury prone and chance to some lol
I think Marquis is a a few years away but ont he same level as Masterson and possibly Lester.
The Red Sox are offering the best players. Then why have Twins hesitated? Those two experts don’t tell us, or do they?
Tate - I agree with you. I’ve been one of the few dissenters about Crisp - I think his two years in Cleveland are closer to what he’d be in Minnesota than are his two years in Boston. And that would make for a fine centerfielder. I also think Lester is better than folks here are giving him credit for being. I wouldn’t go on that one WS game at all, though. But his stuff coming up was considered #1 starter stuff. His downside was always his control, which is often true of young pitchers. I think he could easily be a #2 in Minnesota.
Combine those two guys with Lowrie and Masterson and I’d happily take that for Santana. I think Ellsbury is good, but not the superstar some are making him out to be. We’d definitely be buying high on him. I’d rather buy low, which is what we’d be doing with both Lester and Crisp.
Roundabout - I don’t disagree with you, either. I think Hughes is the best overall player being offered, and I think Melky is better than a 4th outfielder. However, Marquez and Hilligoss are both huge question marks, more so than Lowrie and Masterson in my opinion. I’m on record as saying I like all four deals being speculated about (assuming the Mets give us FMart and Gomez in the same deal).
My only disagreement with you is that it seems you’re being a bit of a “homer” regarding the Yankee guys, devaluing the Sox players in a way I don’t agree with.
Dennis,
I agree with you. I don’t really know what Marquis is, though he’s compared to Carlos Silva (discouraging, isn’t it)
I don’t really know, for example, where Ian Kennedy will fall.
Some scouts compare Kennedy’s style and talent to a Mussina or a Maddox. That makes me chuckle - Maddox is a hall of famer and Mussina is on the bubble, probably just short as of now.
I’d like to think I put the Red Sox guys in perspective, not downgrading them. You said you don’t think Ellsbury is the next Superstar - seemingly we’re on the same page there.
I have the same attitudes toward the Yankee guys. Despite what people say, I never put Melky on the pedestal. I said he’s a good player and at 23, will only get better. I don’t automactically goosestep to Ellsbury is better. Show me.
I do think Joba, Hughes and Kennedy will be excellent to solid pitchers. And I do think the Yanks have all-stars at catcher, 2b, ss, 3b and closer.
I never commented on Hillgross cause I know very little about him.
would boston pony up a lester,crisp, masterson,lowrie, bowden deal?
or could the twinks throw in span or rincoln to get both ellsbury and lester?
From a Mets Blogger Matthew Cerrone (don’t shoot the messenger - as in moi)
Twins GM Bill Smith is in a tough position…
…from what i can tell, his team’s fans are starting to feel like he missed an opportunity during early December to acquire Phil Hughes, Jacoby Ellsbury or Jon Lester for Johan Santana, and because he misplayed his hand he must now entertain accepting unimpressive minor leaguers from the Mets…and while some fans are comfortable with that, in the end they expect a lot more in return for a guy like santana…
…what’s worse, this could essentially be the most important trade of this guy’s young career…
…and so, he really has no choice but to do everything within his power to try and wrangle a big-time player who the fans and media will be satisfied with…i mean, if he trades santana for what is perceived as mostly mid-level prospects, he’s going to have a lot of questions to answer…the thing is, in the long run, of all the rumored deals, he may be better off taking four or five prospects from the Mets…but, by the time Fernando Martinez is making an impact at the major-league level, smith may already be looking for another job…
…as a Mets fan who wants to see santana in blue and orange next season, this is why i worry about the Yankees…because, it would not surprise me to see them flip these talks around, shift gears, and secretly offer up a player like Chien-Ming Wang, who will earn the league minimum in 2008, after which he’ll likely be paid roughly $10 million per-year each of the following three seasons, before being eligible for free agency after 2011…
…remember, according to multiple reports, the Twins did offer santana a four-year deal worth nearly $20 million per season…so, bringing on a back-to-back 19–game winner for half that money, through the same time frame, could be the type of impact player who fans may pat smith on the back for…
…of course, there is no real reason to believe that the Yankees would ever be so bold…accept that i don’t trust them, and i believe they’re capable of anything - especially when it comes to ruining my hopes and dreams…
…if everything remains as is, and santana puts a bit of pressure on the Twins to move him sooner than later, then i see the Mets as the front runners…if, however, santana plays it cool, gives smith the luxury of time, and the Yankees pony up a significant name like wang, or decide to make hughes available again, then the Yankees will rush right to the front of the line - assuming santana will approve a deal to the Bronx…
even with martinez, the mets package is relatively weak compared to the red sox or yankees. but pull the trigger, my work is suffering.
if the mets want him, throw in reyes, enough said. compete now, or our first baseman will request a trade, making us worse than the marlins.
What about the scout who said Lowrie could never play SS in the major leagues? Maybe the Twins don’t trust his glove. Another good hit, no field infielder isn’t what this team needs.
does anyone out there seriously think we could make a playoff run in 08,with or without Johan? Does anyone think we had a prayer of a chance last year after Lirano went down? That the unfortunate reality of mid and small market teams.You rebuild hoping to compete for a tittle in five yrs.In five yrs those players become to expensive to keep and you start the process all over again
With the current make-up of this team, and a few breaks, you bet your a** this team can compete for the division in ‘08.
JA,
What breaks do you need to compete - which could mean winning 95 games in your division.
Craig,
Whose this scout that says Lowrie can’t stick at short?
From the Boston Globe (have you read anything like this in the Trib or the Pioneer Press?)
Twins GM is mum on Santana
Smith in no rush to deal ace lefty
JOHAN SANTANA “I’m a Minnesota Twin”
By Nick Cafardo
Globe Staff / January 15, 2008
Minnesota Twins general manager Bill Smith said last night he has no timetable on when and if he trades lefthanded ace Johan Santana, and was reluctant to indicate whether anything was imminent.
more stories like this
Yanks still discussing deal for Santana
No ‘roid rage in clubhouses
Time is not of essence
With 1 year left on his contract, NY GM not thinking about 2009
All’s quiet on Santana, Francona fronts
“There are enough rumors coming out of Boston and New York,” he said. “I don’t need to fuel any of them or comment on any of them.”
There have been newspaper reports in New York that the Yankees have pulled out of the Santana hunt and that it was down to the Red Sox and Mets, but Yankee owner Hank Steinbrenner yesterday told the Associated Press, “we’re still discussing it.” Smith did not indicate that any team had been ruled out.
“Like I said, there’s no timetable on my part,” Smith said. “We’re just trying to do what’s best for the Minnesota Twins. We’re trying to do the right thing by our team for now and in the future.”
The Yankees have offered a package that includes center fielder Melky Cabrera, righthanded pitcher Phil Hughes, pitching prospect Jeff Marquez, and another prospect. There have been reports that the Twins prefer righthander Ian Kennedy, though Smith has not confirmed that.
The Mets have been trying hard to work a deal that includes one or both of their prized outfielders, Carlos Gomez and Fernando Martinez. Pitchers Mike Pelfry and Phillip Humber also could be part of the package.
The Red Sox have been very quiet as of late about their interest. A Jon Lester-Coco Crisp-Justin Masterson and possibly Jed Lowrie package could still be in play. But some Sox officials would prefer to keep their young players and not make the deal.
The Sox feel they are in a win-win situation regarding Santana. If they acquire him, they would have the best lefty-righty combination in the game with him and Josh Beckett; without Santana, they believe they can continue to develop Clay Buchholz and Lester.
Whoever obtains Santana most likely will have to work a long-term deal with him of five to seven years, worth $20 million-$25 million per season. The Red Sox could make such a commitment.
Santana, who has spent most of the offseason in his native Venezuela, told the Fort Myers News-Press, “I’m a Minnesota Twin. That’s all I know. It’s up to them. Whatever they have to do is going to happen. It has nothing to do with me at all.
“I said it from the beginning during the season last year, whatever will be best for this team and this organization, I’ll agree with that.”
round,
By breaks he means CC Sabathia, Travis Hafner, Gary Sheffield, Miguel Cabrera, Magglio Ordonez, Victor Martinez, Jhonny Peralta, Grady Sizemore, Ivan Rodrieguez, Justin Verlander, and a few others to break some bone(s) in their bodies for the Twins to have a chance to win another glorious AL Central title in 2008.
No team will enhance their trade package just because we add Span to ours.
If he were to succeed at AAA this year, he would then have some value. But, now he has none.
Who is going to be the 500th blogger to suggest that nonsense?
roundabout,
First stay healthy.
Liriano, Crain return to form.
Kubel, Young continue to progress.
Pridie surprize everyone with solid CF play.
Mauer, Morneau, Cuddyer, Lamb, Everett to put up career ave. #’s.
Santana be Santana, Baker pitch the way he did throughout most of the second half, Boof return to ‘06 form.
Bullpen to pitch the way they have been.
JA - I agree with you. I would add that Harris hit as well as last year, and Slowey become the consistently good pitcher his minor league history foretells.
Those things are all possible, and none are remotely outlandish. However, they almost all have to come true, and I’m more than a bit leery of the odds of that.
JA,
Joe C or LaVelle reported the story on the scout a few weeks ago. I don’t know which one reported it. It was part of a blog heading.
You left out Punto on your 6:29 post.
round,
By breaks he means CC Sabathia, Travis Hafner, Gary Sheffield, Miguel Cabrera, Magglio Ordonez, Victor Martinez, Jhonny Peralta, Grady Sizemore, Ivan Rodrieguez, Justin Verlander, and a few others to break some bone(s) in their bodies for the Twins to have a chance to win another glorious AL Central
Shaun,
Please do yourself a favor and compare the Indians 25 man roster, man for man, with the Twins. How many positions Is MN stronger in? Where does Cleveland have the advantage? Also, keep in mind the cyclical nature of baseball.
Craig,
It was from an unamed American League scout following his ‘06 season in which he played injured, first reported in Baseball America in September ‘06. The point is that it is now useless information, after every scouting report from his ‘07 season in AA and AAA project him to be solid defensibly with very good offense potential.
Punto is a better fielder than both Harris and Lamb. If he hits, he will play most everyday. If he doesn’t, he might play less. Gardy still loves him.
News to everyone, if you read it on a blog, it does mean it’s true.
JA, It was actually from a scout one of these reporters spoke to personally. It wasn’t from the Baseball America story.
Correct! Punto can play solid D at 3B, SS, and 2B. And use properly should be a very productive role, reserve player.
Wrong, I have the article.
I think Punto could out-play Harris and get the everyday job.
He is also a far superior fielder and runner than Lamb. Lamb is a better hitter. If Lamb starts booting balls at 3rd, Punto will be back in there.
Craig,
E-mail Jim Callis at Baseball America, ask him.
JA, I think we are talking about two different reports.
JA,
I am very aware of the cyclical nature of baseball and the Twins are in a down cycle for about 2 years I would say. Hope I am wrong though.
I also noticed you didn’t want me to compare the Twins and Tigers. Either way, as I tell the Sox fans in my office the Twins and White Sox are in the race for 3rd in the AL Central.
But if I did compare at least the Tribe and Twins, based on 2007.
C: Indians
1B-Twins (even with a down year from the Doc)
2B-Indians
SS-Indians
3B-Indians
RF-Twins (love that arm)
CF-Indians
LF-Twins (I like Young)
SP-Edge to Cleveland especially if Santana is traded.
Bullpen-Twins, but if Nathan is traded that could be a draw.
Bench-Indians. Seem to have more pop on their bench.
As for the Tigers-their offense looks great on paper, Twins can’t match that. Pitching though is their issue beyond Verlander. They need Bonderman and Robertson to bounce pack.
I don’t see any meaningful difference when comparing the Twins, Tigers and Indians as far as hitting goes.
The Tigers have the better hitting - more power - and will score more runs
The Twins starting pitching is just hopelessly inexperienced. They can’t compete with that pathetic rotation.
shaun-you failed to mention the DH comparision.I think Hafner is far better than anyone the Twins can run out there.Can you imagine having a Frank Thomas or a Jim Thome or a Hafner during the playoff yrs of 2002-2006.We might have hoisted our third WS banner
2008 will be a season to sort out the young starters. They will find out who can pitch in the major leagues and who can’t. The boys will get some experience.
JA,
Joe commented on Lowie earlier…
http://nc.startribune.com/blogs/christensen/?p=434
“I spoke to a National League scout who watched Jed Lowrie in the Arizona Fall League, and he was very negative about Lowrie’s defense, using the words “hard hands.” The scout said there’s “not a snowball’s chance” Lowrie plays shortstop in the big leagues.”
I also read on Scout.com (subscription only) that he had very limited range.
You guys are all fickle hear… JC will ink an article about Marquez that he is ‘the next coming” of Bert Blyleven and you will all jump on the Yankee deal bandwagon. Next will be an article about Masterson’s wicked sinker. Then everyone will rave about the Sox deals…
Jed Lowrie
During the 2007 season, he made the Eastern League All-Star team, was named the Portland Sea Dogs Most Valuable Player, and the Red Sox Minor League Offensive Player of the Year as well. He was promoted to Triple-A Pawtucket late in the season. Currently, he is ranked 5th in the Top 20 Prospects List of the International League, according to Baseball America.
I guess that’s a no-comment on his fielding…
Christina,
No one has said that the guy can’t hit. The thought expressed by JC in his earlier post was that they guy is a defensive liability. Also, he is not a power guy. He is an ‘get on base” guy. You could put him at a corner infield position, but you would be giving up some power compared to an average 1st/3rd baseman.
I am not sure how relevant his ranking as a prospect in the International League is. Ellsbury was ranked 6th. Nobody believe Lowrie is better than Ellsbury
Yank’s top prospect is Joba. Sox’ top prospect is Buckholz. Met’s top prosect is FMart. All three of these are “off the table”. It sounds like FMart is the closest to being part of a trade. He is also the farthest from the majors. Guerra is Met’s top pitching prospect (#2 overall). IMO if we can get two potential high impact players (Fmart & Guerra) packaged with 2 or more at least mid-level prospects it is worth the gamble. Joba & Hughes have not been offered by Yanks. Buckholz & Ellsbury have not been offered by the Sox. We don’t need FMArt AND Gomez. It will be easy to pick up someone like Crisp if Pridie can’t cut it. Crisp would be a payroll purge for Sox. He would hold down CF/lead off until Revere is ready. Heck maybe Nathan trade will fill our last “hole” or two. All prospects are just that until they prove it in majors. Go with a trade for at least TWO POTENTIAL STUD players. Yanks & Sox are offering their @2 prospect & /or lower. Extra benefit, Johan in NL. Come on Bill, give Omar a call & get ‘er done!
I for one believes Lowrie walks on water together with Ellsbury, holding hands with Masterson and Buchholz.
They are Red Sox, therefore they are gods.
My, it does seem like we’ve come a long way since November when the prevailing thinking was that it would take an offer that would “blow away” Bill Smith in order to get Santana in a trade. Now everyone’s arguing over which package of “ifs” and “maybes” Smith should accept.
If these are the best offers he’s going to get, I don’t see anything that absolutely has to be accepted. If nobody wants Santana any worse than what they’ve shown so far, lets enjoy watching him pitch for the Twins for another year and roll the dice on the first round and supplemental round draft picks… which together could very well be as likely to produce future major league stars as any deal currently on the table.
Who knows… maybe all the talk from other teams about how they’d be unlikely to offer more than a 5 year contract will convince Johan to talk seriously to Smith about an extension with the Twins.
Do you guys think that an other team will help the Mets so its a three team trade for Santana?
or that Santana will be traded to another team other than the Yankees Mets or Red Sox?
No, if these are the only offers, let’s sign him. I can’t believe people are even entertaining the Met’s offer. The prize is F-Mart? A rookie ball guy? Jeez, give me a break, that would be the steal of the century for the Mets.
I looked into my crystal ball and i see one-on-one deal, no three team particpation.
Unless, it’s very dim, the crystal ball shows the Twins trading Santana to the Sox for Ellsbury and the Sox then dumping Santana on the Yanks for Melky and then the Yanks dish Santana to the Twins for Justin Morneau and Joe Mauer. It’s very dim. An amazing series of transaction. Selig then calls for a congressional investigation, claiming violations of interstate commerce.
My point is that if Lowrie is a bad defensive player would Baseball America name him a #5 prospect? Why would they do that?
you know…. dont think the mets wont do a 5 prospect deal with potential super stars… anyone remember the kazmir trade?
C: Indians
1B-Twins (even with a down year from the Doc)
2B-Indians
SS-Indians
3B-Indians
RF-Twins (love that arm)
CF-Indians
LF-Twins (I like Young)
SP-Edge to Cleveland especially if Santana is traded.
Bullpen-Twins, but if Nathan is traded that could be a draw.
Bench-Indians. Seem to have more pop on their bench
Shaun,
The argument was for the current roster. So once again tell me how Cleveland is the better team.
Here is how I see it:
C:Minnesota
1B:Minnesota
2B:Push Harris, Punto v. Cabrera, Barfield
SS:Cleveland
3B:Slight egde Clev. Lamb, new league
RF:Minnesota
CF:Cleveland
LF:Minnesota
DH:Cleveland
Bench:Push
SP:Minnesota
RP:Minnesota
Closer:Minnesota
Defense:Minnesota
Mauer, Morneau, Cuddyer, Lamb, Monroe, Everett, Redmond, Punto all had stats below their career ave. All should have a positive year.
Now, for the Twins to win the 90 games needed to win the division, they will need relative health from all, and Liriano, Crain, Reyes, and Perkins to return strong from injury.
And of course, sign Johan to the extension is the first order.
Robert,
Totally agree. Bunch of 4/5 starters (at best) + 19 Yr Old who is at least 2/3 yrs away + 23 YO that has not shown that he can hit in the bigs.
JA,
Right off the bat, you got to be kidding us.
Victor Martinez 40 doubles, 25 HR and 114 RBIs and Joe Mauer 27 doubles, 6 Homeruns and 60 RBIs. and You give the nod to Mauer?
No amount of Mauer defensive edge makes up for Martinez’s overwhelming, dominating edge in batting.
Christina,
I don’t know. I have never seen him play. I am going by JC’s earlier post + the comment on scout.com.
I am not sure of BA criteria. He is also listed as the 8th best prospect in the Eastern League (AA). Given BA love for the Red Sox prospects, I am surprised that Lowrie is not listed as 1st, 2nd and 3rd ranked prospect in the International League 
. What I read at scout.com is that the guy has a great mental makeup (he is a bulldog…think Pedroia) but his fielding is not good.
Christina,
The rumors of Lowrie being a bad defensive player stem from a ‘06 ankle injury which cost him range and stability. It was his first year in professional ball, it happered him throughout the year, but he came back abit by the end of August. In September ‘06, Baseball America ran a story of how his range had suffered, and that he was worn down by the end of the year. Nevertheless, Boston sent him to the Arizona fall league that year. He stayed for about three weeks before leaving. This is where the scout suppositly said this about his hands and range. Question to the doubters? He played the 2006 regular season in high A. If he was struggling so much, why did Boston promote him to AA the following spring (2007)?
Personally,
I think Jed Lowrie could maybe end up producing similarly to the way Brandon Phillips produced for the Reds this past season.
roundabout how would you rank these catchers?
Posada,varitek,Mauer,Martinez,Pudge and mcann.
Martinez
Posada
Mauer
Martinez
Varitek
Pudge in for the 4th ranked C
my bad
Martinez, Posada, McCain, Pudge and Mauer
McCann..
baseball america’s TOP TEN Yankee
PROSPECTS
1. Joba Chamberlain, rhp
2. Austin Jackson, of
3. Jose Tabata, of
4. Ian Kennedy, rhp
5. Alan Horne, rhp
6. Jesus Montero, c
7. Jeff Marquez, rhp
8. Brett Gardner, of
9. Ross Ohlendorf, rhp
10. Andrew Brackman, rhp
How come Hughes is not on this list??
JA,
Being promoted up the minor league ladder has to do with bat development for a hitter. Lowrie showed he could hit hight A so it was time to move up to double A. it’s about hitting and facing better pitcher. one can learn fielding just as well in the lower minors, as the upper minors.
Roundabout,
Look at career totals, not a one year window.
Mauer, Redmond trump Martinez, Shoppach
Once again, remember the cyclical nature. the Ultimate game of adjustment, Mauer off career ave. Martinez plus career. ‘08 they both will change direction. but go ahead take the offensive appoach at catcher. Its pitching and defense that carries the day.
Baseball America’s top 50 prospects for 2007 http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/features/263445.html
Here’s top 10
1 DAISUKE MATSUZAKA, rhp, Red Sox
Who needs a gyroball? He has six pitches that grade out as plus or plus-plus at their best, and he’ll be the best Japanese import ever. And no, we’re not forgetting about Ichiro
Opening Day Age: 26. ETA: 2007
2 ALEX GORDON, 3b, Royals
College Player of the Year in 2005, Minor League Player of the Year in 2006 . . . Rookie of the Year in 2007
Opening Day Age: 23. ETA: 2007
3 DELMON YOUNG, of, Devil Rays
Took the Albert Belle comparisons too far when he tossed a bat at an umpire last year, but he can rake
Opening Day Age: 21. ETA: 2007
4 PHILIP HUGHES, rhp, Yankees
As good as Chien-Ming Wang has been, this homegrown ace will be even better
Opening Day Age: 20. ETA: 2007
5 HOMER BAILEY, rhp, Reds
The next great Texas fireballer in the tradition of Nolan Ryan and Roger Clemens
Opening Day Age: 20. ETA: 2007
6 CAMERON MAYBIN, of, Tigers
Tremendous athlete had even more polish at the plate than Detroit expected
Opening Day Age: 19. ETA: 2009
7 EVAN LONGORIA, 3b, Devil Rays
Backed up his reputation as the 2006 draft’s best pure hitter by batting .315 with 18 homers in his pro debut
Opening Day Age: 21. ETA: 2007
8 BRANDON WOOD, ss, Angels
More than capable at shortstop, he may shift to third base to get his power bat into the Los Angeles lineup
Opening Day Age: 22. ETA: 2007
9 JUSTIN UPTON, of, Diamondbacks
No. 1 overall pick in 2006 didn’t have a banner debut, but he still has Ken Griffey Jr. tools
Opening Day Age: 19. ETA: 2009
10 ANDREW MILLER, lhp, Tigers
The consensus top prospect in the 2006 draft was a steal at sixth overall and nearly made Detroit’s World Series roster
Opening Day Age: 21. ETA: 2008
Posada
Martinez
Mauer
McCann
Varitek
Pudge
JA,
Cleavland owned the Twins last year (especially Santana). Twins lost Hunter. Will probably lose Santana.
Cleavland SP is much better. With Santana + healthy Liriano, it is close.
Cleavland RP much better. Betancourt, Perez & Lewis much better than Twins setup corp. Nathan is better than Borowski, but had 8 fewer saves. Borowski does the job.
So the Twins are weaker this year. Cleavland was better last year. They will probably be better this year also.
roundabout
Dice-K?? that is not a creditable list.
Jon,
LOL no comment. the others are all significant players
JA,
I’d take Martinez over Mauer any day of the week. His offensive numbers are so far superior over Mauer. Mauer’s purported defense cannot make up the difference.
I might take Posada over Martinez - cause Jorge has the bat and his defense is much improved, though he aint great behind the plate.
Christina,
here is a Lowrie article before injury.
Scout’s View: Jed Lowrie
By Chris Kline
April 17, 2006
E-mail Print
Jed Lowrie didn’t get much of a taste of what playing shortstop was like during college, but he certainly has gotten his feet wet in just over 60 games as a pro.
The Red Sox’ supplemental first-round pick last year out of Stanford spent much of his three years with the Cardinal at second base. All that time on the opposite side of the infield led to questions among scouts about Lowrie’s range, footwork and lateral movement.
But the 22-year-old is quickly erasing those doubts this season at high Class A Wilmington.
“He’s been going in the hole and throwing out guys like (Myrtle Beach outfielder) Brandon Jones,” Blue Rocks manager Chad Epperson said. “I know it’s early and I’m probably more than a little bit biased, but to me, he’s one of the most exciting players in this league.”
The Red Sox drafted Pacific-10 Conference middle infielders in 2004 and 2005, nabbing Arizona State product Dustin Pedroia, who played shortstop in college, in the second round in ‘04 and getting Lowrie a year later. Neither is the prototypical rangy shortstop, and one area scout who has seen both infielders says Lowrie is more likely to stick there for the long term.
“Lowrie definitely profiles at the position,” the scout said. “He’s one of those guys that moves up a level and makes the big wigs go, ‘God, this guy just does everything so easy–he just does it and does it.’
Jon says:
January 15th, 2008 at 9:36 pm
baseball america’s TOP TEN Yankee
PROSPECTS
1. Joba Chamberlain, rhp
2. Austin Jackson, of
3. Jose Tabata, of
4. Ian Kennedy, rhp
5. Alan Horne, rhp
6. Jesus Montero, c
7. Jeff Marquez, rhp
8. Brett Gardner, of
9. Ross Ohlendorf, rhp
10. Andrew Brackman, rhp
How come Hughes is not on this list??
maybe hughes is not that good after all!!!!!!!
Beantown!!!
I was looking for a real answer!
Baseball America 2006 top 50 prospects..
familar names..
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/features/060223top100c.html
1. DELMON YOUNG, of, Devil Rays
“Delmon’s going to be as good as Delmon wants to be. He can do whatever he puts his mind to do.”
–anonymous scout
ETA: 2006
——————————————————————————–
2. JUSTIN UPTON, ss, Diamondbacks
“If you stick him in center field right now, he could be an all-star in two years.”
–anonymous scouting director
ETA: 2007
——————————————————————————–
3. BRANDON WOOD, ss, Angels
“He’s still going to get better. He looks like the next Cal Ripken to me.”
–San Jose manager Lenn Sakata
ETA: 2007
——————————————————————————–
4. JEREMY HERMIDA, of, Marlins
“Everything he does is so easy. He has a 70 arm and he has one of the sweetest swings from the left side I’ve ever seen.”
–anonymous scout
ETA: 2006
——————————————————————————–
5. STEPHEN DREW, ss, Diamondbacks
“He’s got power. He can hit for average. He’s got instincts. He has all the defensive tools to play an outstanding shortstop. He is one of the most instinctual players for his age that I’ve ever seen.”
–Diamondbacks scouting director Mike Rizzo
ETA: 2006
——————————————————————————–
6. FRANCISCO LIRIANO, lhp, Twins
“He’s filthy. We’re talking three big league pitches, and everything looks easy.”
–Indianapolis manager Trent Jewett
ETA: 2006
——————————————————————————–
7. CHAD BILLINGSLEY, rhp, Dodgers
“There are times when his command is a little off, but his arm strength, demeanor on the mound, presence–everything is good. He has a chance to be a dominant starter in the big leagues”
–Birmingham manager Razor Shines
ETA: 2006
——————————————————————————–
8. JUSTIN VERLANDER, rhp, Tigers
“He’s got the arm, the heart and the head to do some very, very great things for that organization.”
–anonymous scout
ETA: 2006
——————————————————————————–
9. LASTINGS MILLEDGE, of, Mets
“He’s going to be an all-star caliber player. You hit home runs with a quick bat, which he’s got, and down the road he could steal 35 to 40 bases.”
–anonymous scout
ETA: 2006
——————————————————————————–
10. MATT CAIN, rhp, Giants
“The quality of his stuff has never been a question. The question was his command and ability to make adjustments. Well, he’s doing those things now.”
–Fresno manager Shane Turner
ETA: 2006
——————————————————————————–
11. PRINCE FIELDER, 1b, Brewers
“He’s the Prince of Power. He does that one thing that makes guys the most money.”
–anonymous scout
ETA: 2006
——————————————————————————–
12. HOWIE KENDRICK, 2b, Angels
“I just love his bat. He gets the barrel into the zone very quickly and it stays there for a very long time.”
–anonymous scout
ETA: 2007
——————————————————————————–
13. ALEX GORDON, 3b, Royals
“Alex Gordon is obviously a guy we had targeted for a long time. We feel like he’s going to be a cornerstone for this organization for many years to come.”
–Royals scouting director Deric Ladnier
ETA: 2007
——————————————————————————–
14. ANDY MARTE, 3b, Indians
“Andy profiles as a guy who has the ability to hit in the middle of the lineup of a championship major league team. He has all the ingredients to be a special hitter.”
–Braves farm director Dayton Moore
ETA: 2006
——————————————————————————–
15. RYAN ZIMMERMAN, 3b, Nationals
“You don’t necessarily draft someone based on defense in our business–usually the bat’s the No. 1 tool–but his defensive ability is so special that it really pushed him up. And the bat is also special”
–Nationals special assistant Bob Boone
ETA: 2006
Beantown, Jon,
Hughes no longer qualifies as a prospect. He pitched more than 50 innings in the majors…
Beanie,
Phil Hughes is no longer considered a prospect since he’s the real deal. But you probably noticed when Hughes was ranked 4th by Baseball America Clay Buchholz was 51. I am sure Buchholz is not considered a prospect in 2008
Too bad the Mets traded Milledge to the Nationals for a backup catcher and a bag of balls. He would look good for the Twins
roundabout
Sure hughes was ranked #4 but look who was ranked #1!!
RPB,
The talk in NY was when Omar traded Milledge he lost Santana. Twins, I believe, liked Milledge, But Omar said others told him the Mets still had the goods - minor leaguers - to acquire Santana from the Twins. Maybe, Omar was correct.
Rpb,
Cleveland’s last few years:
2007:96-66
2006:78-84
2005:93-69
2004:80-82
Do you see the pattern.
The argument is can the Twins compete for the division in 2008. I feel with the current roster and a few breaks, they can.
Beanie,
Ya mean a professional pitcher from Japan who cost 150M… And look at his first year. I bet you rather have Phil Hughes or Francisco Liriano (number 6)
It looks like the yanks no longer want to give up hughes, so how about Kennedy, Jackson and marquez for Santana.
Jon,
That’s a trade LOL
22. JON LESTER, lhp, Red Sox
“The first time I saw him pitch, I called [GM] Theo Esptein and said, ‘Whatever you do, don’t trade Jon Lester.’ ”
–Red Sox scouting director Jason McLeod
ETA: 2007
roundabout
you were the one who was going by rankings so don;t get frustrated because a Redsox was ranked #1, and by the way Bucholz is ranked in the top 3 young pitchers in the game today!!
Roundabout,
Which team won the most games in the 1980’s?
Roundabout,
Which team had the highest payroll in the 1980’s?
Roundabout,
Which team had the highest batting average in the 1980’s?
roundabout
Chamberlain is good, but hughes is over hyped. I actually like Kennedy better than hughes.
Roundabout,
It was the New York Yankees. Alot of good hitting does for you.
JA
Twins and Tigers last few years.
And note the additions the Tigers have for 2008 and the substractions facing the Twins. Up and down division
Twins
2007 - 79-83
2006- 96-66
2005 - 82-79
2004 - 91-69
Tigers:
2007 - 88-74
2006 - 95-67
2005 - 71-90
2004- 71-89
i will take Dice-k, Lester, Bucholz over Chamberlain, Hughes, Kennedy anyday of the week.
JA,
And your point is what - mediocre hitting and mediocre pitching is better than strong hitting and weak pitching?
Beanie,
You got no choice in the matter - you are stuck with those guys..
JA,
The fact that the Yanks went years without winning doesn’t bother me. I remember 1965 to 1975.
That’s the nature of the game, sometimes.
It’s a yawner
How about from 1996 until 2007?
When was the last time your team won it all? You understand a decade or more of not winning, right?
on espn.com today
The Choice
We talked to nine non-Red Sox or Yankees personnel people, and the verdict was decidedly pro-Joba. While most baseball talent evaluators predict stardom for both pitchers, seven of the nine preferred Chamberlain. So we’ll go with the Yankees guy as well. Let the debate (and the angry e-mails from Red Sox fans) commence.
The point is the current roster of the Minnesota Twins, with a focus on pitching and defense, can compete in 2008. I did not garuantee a division crown, but that if the pieces fall right, they can be there in the end.
They weren’t viewed as very strong in 2006, the won 96 games.
Jon
we all know that Espn loves the yankees. They never rip the yankees and they always favor the yankees, so their opinion is worthless to me!!!
The ESPN Item
http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=18846
I think both teams are going to monitor their pitchers’ workload closely this season. Buchholz shut it down at 148 innings last year with shoulder fatigue, and Chamberlain threw 122 innings during his four stops. There’s no way either guy makes the quantum leap to 200 innings. I think maybe 160-170 innings for Chamberlain and a little more than that for Buchholz.
——————————————————————————–
Doug (Boston): Clay has no weaknesses, Joba cannot pitch with insects around.
Jerry Crasnick: Doug,
Here’s an interesting thing about Buchholz: Two scouts told me they’re a little concerned because he pitches with an extremely high arm angle. Apparently some people in baseball think that can lead to shoulder problems. Buchholz also has a very wiry build — a la Bronson Arroyo. Some talented evaluators look at his body type and wonder if he can consistently handle a big workload.
PA,
We will have to wait and see.
Personally, I like the Twins (Justin Morneau, Delmon Young, Santana - and I an a Torii fan). I just can’t see the Tigers losing the division unless they have a team collapse. If that happened, I suspect the Indians will pick it up.. CC Sabathia and Carmona are a tough 1-2 combo. (Think Santana-Liriano)
Beantown!!!
It’s not just espn it’s all the scouts as well. I know the truth hurts, but it’s ok bucholz is still a good pitcher.
It was not a rip on the Yankees. Just to point out there are many different ways to build a successful organization. Offense gets all the highlights, but its the least important part to building a continuous winner.
Beanie,
I don’t know who ESPN likes or dislikes. But apparently ESPN got its consensus from talking with nine non-Red Sox or Yankees personnel people.
Please, don’t get FRUSTRATED cause your guy finished behind Joba.
Read the Boston Herald lol
JA,
Pitching is a vital cop - maybe the cog for any team. I just don’t see the Twins in 2008 having that strong a pitching cog, especially if Santana is traded.
I see Detroit havign good pitching for the regular season and great hitting to cover up for any pitching lapses.
When the playoffs come, it’s a different ballgame
I’d still take Victor Martinez over Joe Mauer..
why do we keep talking about the twins!!! they stink!!!! lets talk more about yanks-sox.
beantown
we are guest here. Just in case you haven’t noticed this is a twins blog.
yeah beantown dont u have a blog for boston or something? This is a twins blog. Is your life that depressing that u have to come on a twins blog and be a little bi*ch about everything. sorry for the profanity
Sports does funny things to some people. It makes calm people agitated, polite people nasty.
And smart people dumb.
I just heard on the news Rudy Giuliani refused to autograph a child’s Green Bay Packers hat while campaigning in Wisconsin. Why? Rudy is a Giants fan? Hurt a kid’s feelings over sports. Wonderful.
not that it is Twins related… but the Family Guy Star Wars movie is hilarious
Roundabout,
Of course all of that was based of Johan being here, and Frankie Liriano returning to form. If you remember my original post around 6pm.
JA,
I don’t think you will have Santana to cheer for, unfortunately. I don’t think Liriano will be pitching full-time til the second half, at earliest, I thought I had read. And how long it takes him to get the edge back, who knows. You may have to pencil him in for 2009
I’d still take Victor Martinez over Joe Mauer..
A year ago would you have said that? A year from now I doubt you still will.
It will be tough to see him go. Whoever they get in a trade, better damn well turn out. I agree that Liriano will probaly take some bullpen time before starting.
Roundabout,
One more thing on Victor. he’s quility, no doubt, but he’ll be at 1B before too long. Now tell me, Vic. or Morneau, and also, Mauer or Shoppach?
The Book on Ben Revere
Born 5/3/1988
OF, MIN
When the Twins let Torii Hunter go, maybe they knew something.
Revere is a prototype leadoff hitter: his blazing speed and quick bat pushed him into the league leader boards for doubles, triples, and stolen bases. Only 5-9 and 175, he won’t win any home run derbies, but his speed and approach to the game is exactly what Minnesota needs at the top of their roster. He’ll start 2008 in the Midwest League, but expect Minnesota to take a look at him during the season.
Ranking in Scouting Book: #78
Ranking in Baseball Prospectus: n/a
Ranking in Baseball America 2008: n/a
Ranking in Sports Illustrated 2008 Preview: n/a
The Book on Jacoby Ellsbury
Prospect Info
Born 9/11/1983
OF, BOS
Anyone who follows baseball knows that Coco Crisp was supposed to replace Johnny Damon in Boston: a speedster centerfielder with high contact and game-making smarts. But anyone who follows Sox baseball also knows this: Coco Crisp ain’t no Johnny Damon.
Enter Ellsbury, a base-stealing machine who infuriates defenses by hitting or bunting to all fields. On defense, he might have enough range to cover center and left field together, extending the career of Manny Ramirez even further.
After his performance in the postseason of 2007, he’s certain to open 2008 on the Sox roster, and probably in their starting lineup. Expect some bumps along the way, but once he settles in he should be a solid contributor in the steals and runs categories, at least. Of course, his standout postseason will also ensure that he goes about 10 rounds too early in most offseason drafts, so if someone in your league is willing to overbid… let them.
Ranking in Scouting Book: #20
Ranking in Baseball Prospectus: n/a
Ranking in Baseball America 2008: n/a
Ranking in Sports Illustrated 2008 Preview: n/a
Ranking in Project Prospect: #30
JA,
I like Morneau a lot.. Martinez can hit with him. That could be a push. The glove belongs to Morneau, so he would get the overall edge.
Shoppach doesnt have much of a stick..
I think it’s safe to say that if the Twins were satisfied with any of the deals supposedly being offered by the Mets, Yankees, or Red Sox for Santana they would have done it by now.
I remember reading an article in the beginning of this saga stating that the Red Sox would be open to being creative with their package of players if the Twins were creative as well. I wonder if all three teams would be?
If the Twins really want to pursue any of the deals that they have supposedly been waiting for:
Mets: F-Martinez & Gomez
Yankees: Hughes & Kennedy
Boston: Ellsbury & Lester
would it make sense to throw in a couple of prospects that we could live without if it meant gaining some players that this team desperatley needs.
Boston
Santana + minor league cather + Brandon Roberts/Denard Span(CF) + 1 of our A- to AA pitchers
for
Lester + Ellsbury + Masterson + Lowrie
Mets
Santana + Rincon + Brandon Roberts/Denard Span(CF)
for
F-Martinez + Gomez + Pelfrey + Guerra + Mulvey or Humber
I know we are already talking about giving up Johan fricking Santana, but if it takes a couple of additional minor leaguers to sweeten the deal, I wonder if Bill would get closer to obtaining the players we are after.
To the gentleman who showed the Cleveland Indians stats…
What it didnt’ take into consideration is that this year their best player is coming off the worst year of his career so far in Hafner, their second best player tired out at the end of the year last year in Sizemore, and their third best player is the number 1-2 rated catcher in all of baseball now that he can actualy play SOME… limited, but some defense.
Oh yeah, and CC Sabbathia is a free agent after the season so he’s going to get PAID PAID PAID. As long as he’s healthy they will win 90 games
Sprungjrod…
I am to the point where I agree… lets do whatever it takes to get the players we want and need to win as soon as we possibly can.
Good night losers!!
Beantown!!!
dude that is just sick. You need to chill out, I’m not a twins fan but if i was i would make you pay for those comments, I’d make you cry!
I think we found out who the REAL idiot is here….. Beantown… Looks like you have a nitch man
roundabout, there’s nothing the Twins “knew” about Hunter that fans didn’t already.
Basically he’s not a Twin because the kind money/years it would’ve taken to keep him wouldn’t be near worth it.
Would you have wanted the Twins to lay $90mil at his feet?
I am hoping for a trade or some form of resolution soon so these East Coast posers go back home.
In the best case scenario Minnesota hangs onto Johan, they meet the Sox or Yankees in the post season and Johan sends them out of the park with their tails between their legs.
If the Twins could score some runs the last few seasons would have been a completely different story.
I still dont get the infatuation with the Mets. The Yankee equivalent to F Mart and Gomez are : Tabata, Melky. Guerra is Dellin Bettances. Any of the other Mets pitchers are worse than Marquez. Yet you guys insist on Hughes & Kennedy from the Yankees. Also, why are the Twins not insisting on a Bucholtz + Crisp package instead of Lester.
I just dont get it.
Even BA, the Sox loving propaganda machine states that Lester will be a middle of the rotation guy.
Is Masterson a viable starting pitcher or just a good bull pen arm? Does anyone know? And how good of a starting pitcher is Masterson possibly going to be? If Masterson could be a good SP, maybe I could live with him if we got Bowden,Ellsbury,Lowrie,and him, but i think the Twins have the right idea waiting for Lester.
On behalf of Boston fans I want to apologize for Beantown - way out of line.
Nonetheless, there is a growing sentiment here that we’d be happier just keeping our guys and taking our chances.
From Boston Globe this morning covering a “rookie workout” that happened yesterday:
“When you looked out at the football field in the indoor bubble at Boston College’s Alumni Stadium yesterday, you saw the reason why many Red Sox fans don’t want to make the Johan Santana trade.
You saw a confident, personable, Derek Lowe-like Justin Masterson and shortstop-of-the-future Jed Lowrie, both of whom have been mentioned in a possible trade for Santana. You saw a bulked-up, maturing Clay Buchholz, who may be the Red Sox’ lone untouchable, though he may not even break camp with them, given the depth of their rotation.”
I think this is basically accurate - most of us just want to break camp with the guys we have at this point. To tell you the absolute truth I think that there might be a little fatigue setting in from thinking about this for so long, which I’m sure Twins fans are feeling as well.
I’m not trying to tell you Lester is a #1 (although he is good) or that Lowrie is Cal Ripken (although he will contrinute in the ML)or that Masterson will be anything but an excellent set-up guy, but between Ellsbury, Lester, Bucholtz and a couple of these other prospects that will be able to fill holes we feel good about our chances and we don’t NEED to give up Bucholtz (or even Ellsbury in my opinion) so I wouldn’t expect it.
Point is - I don’t see our deals changing. Now, its just a matter of what you think you can get from other teams for Santana or what you want for your own team (win next year, 2-4, 5-7).
You have to excuse Beantown. Sox fans just have no respect. I have lot of respect for the Red Sox - who won the WS, but I’m still a die-hard Twins fan.
I trust Bill Smith to do the right thing. I hope the Twins sign Johan to an extended contract, but if they cannot, then I realize they will have to trade him.
But they need some ML ready players back. They need someone to lead this young staff of SP. And they need a CF, although I really think Pridie can fill the bill.
Best scenario: He’s signed long term, and pridie gets to play every day CF.
Next-best: Santana is traded, and we get ML ready pitcher and CF, prospects, AND sign a veteran pitcher to lead our SP. We’re ready to compete in 2008 and beyond.
Third best: Santana is not traded, but is left unsigned. We still compete for 2008, but trade him at the deadline.
Worst case: Santana is traded, and we get only prospects, and don’t compete in 2008 or 2009.
From Metsblog…I found this kind of interesting; it sort of broaches the subject of Mr. Bill Smith possibly OVERPLAYING his hand:
…Twins GM Bill Smith is in a tough position…
…from what i can tell, his team’s fans are starting to feel like he missed an opportunity during early December to acquire Phil Hughes, Jacoby Ellsbury or Jon Lester for Johan Santana, and because he misplayed his hand he must now entertain accepting unimpressive minor leaguers from the Mets…and while some fans are comfortable with that, in the end they expect a lot more in return for a guy like santana…
…what’s worse, this could essentially be the most important trade of this guy’s young career…
…and so, he really has no choice but to do everything within his power to try and wrangle a big-time player who the fans and media will be satisfied with…i mean, if he trades santana for what is perceived as mostly mid-level prospects, he’s going to have a lot of questions to answer…the thing is, in the long run, of all the rumored deals, he may be better off taking four or five prospects from the Mets…but, by the time Fernando Martinez is making an impact at the major-league level, smith may already be looking for another job…
…as a Mets fan who wants to see santana in blue and orange next season, this is why i worry about the Yankees…because, it would not surprise me to see them flip these talks around, shift gears, and secretly offer up a player like Chien-Ming Wang, who will earn the league minimum in 2008, after which he’ll likely be paid roughly $10 million per-year each of the following three seasons, before being eligible for free agency after 2011…
…remember, according to multiple reports, the Twins did offer santana a four-year deal worth nearly $20 million per season…so, bringing on a back-to-back 19–game winner for half that money, through the same time frame, could be the type of impact player who fans may pat smith on the back for…
…of course, there is no real reason to believe that the Yankees would ever be so bold…accept that i don’t trust them, and i believe they’re capable of anything - especially when it comes to ruining my hopes and dreams…
…if everything remains as is, and santana puts a bit of pressure on the Twins to move him sooner than later, then i see the Mets as the front runners…if, however, santana plays it cool, gives smith the luxury of time, and the Yankees pony up a significant name like wang, or decide to make hughes available again, then the Yankees will rush right to the front of the line - assuming santana will approve a deal to the Bronx…
I think BS MAY be overplaying his hand…the BoSox and Yankees might be satisfied JUST keeping Johan away from each other; the worst thing that could happen would be for the Mets to grow tired of waiting for BS and make a trade for Bedard and Blanton.
Then, it’s lame-duck status for Johan this year. One has to hope that 1.) the Yankees or Mets stuggle from the outset of the season, forcing them to make a trade that weighs in our favor for Johan; 2.) Johan agrees to waive his NTC in mid-season.
The front office needs to explore a 4-2 trade.
I think giving back a C level pitching prospect (Sosa, Pino, Dunsing) to replace Masterson as a ML pitching prospect might be appealing to them.
It is clear that Smith really wants either Ellsbury + Lester, Hughes + Kennedy or Gomez + Guerra + Martinez and has the patience to wait it out… as agonizing as it is for us.
It is very agonizing…nevertheless, I would like to see this resolved in the next month, but that’s just me speaking as a “rube”
I think BS did overplay his hand he should of taken the ellsbury deal when it was on the table who knows if it is anymore, if not lester deal is a good fall back. I just think Jed Lowrie would be the star in all of the people offered. We know we need bats. We did the whole thing the last few years of bringing up young pitchers and it worked good but didnt get us to the WS. We should focus on getting hitting now and our young pitching will develop. I think if the ellsbury del goes through i can see this line-up and rotation will look like if the ellsbury deal is still out there by the all-star break.
Ellsbury-CF
Mauer-C
Young-LF
Morneau-1B
Cuddyer-RF
Kubel/Monroe-DH
Lamb-3B
Lowrie-2B
Everrett-SS
Liriano
Baker
Bonser
Slowey
Perkins/Blackburn
If the young pitching stays healthy and consistant. If the young Postition players play the way they are capable of we can compete in 08′ 85-92 wins…But that is a lot of IF’S. AGREE?
We need to stop counting on Liriano to headline this staff…we don’t know what we’re going to get out of his this year.
Todd your right we shouldn’t count on Liriano to headline the staff BUT after Santana is traded He is gonna be the Ace of the staff like or not. And Justin my thinking is that BS must not be to high on elsbury or he would of taken that one back at the meetings.
i know but it sounds like he is gonna have to settle for the best offer cuz he is starting to overplay his hand so he needs to take the ellsbury deal cuz that is the best. if not that one take the lester deal use nathan and coco crisp in a trade maybe if the cubs are interested like reports said get pie and a minor leaguer? and then lester can head the staff until/if liriano gets back to form to be the header of our staff
Anyone else getting slightly annoyed at the lack of action regarding Santana and Nathan, as well as contract extensions Morneau (and a lesser extent, Cuddyer)?
TA
i am completely annoyed by it..
i am soo tired of talking about santana its ridiculous..
But, I am most upset that we have not talked with Morneau.. We do have him until 2010 but we need to lock him up
my point is: fine, BS is waiting for “best offer” for Santana, but he can’t make a contract offer to Morneau?
agreed
I am getting very annoyed, I can see the reason for being patient on the Santana front IF and only IF all the offers you got during the meetings are still on the table and you are just deciding which one to take. But if you are losing offers because your being patient than your not gaining anything, I think They won’t decide on Nathan until Santana is traded or not. But I don’t get why there not getting Cuddy and morneau resigned so what happened to Hunter doesn’t happen with them
Not resigned But Extended
It’s perplexing, to be sure…a little bit of positivity (the Delmon Trade was a nice start) mixed in with the sadness of potentially trading the best pitcher in the game would be nice. I think some of us would appreciate the front office demonstrating that we won’t lose ALL of our key players (i.e. signing Morneau, and to a lesser extent, Cuddyer).
Cordial Sox fan here - thank you for allowing me to be a guest.
I just want to poll you all on a situation that looks more and more like it might happen:
What if the Twins do carry Santana in to the season? Didn’t he say that when the season starts he is not going to allow himself to be traded? How would you rate the odds of him waiving the no-trade clause mid-season?
I suppose this would have everything to do with the actual deal on the table (if you were going to a team that was about to compete for a championship I guess it might be hard to turn down), but I just want to make sure that I am remembering correctly that he did make that statement.
I agree Todd, But when you are a Twins fan You get use to watching players get better and when they start to become good we trade them because we can’t or don’t want to pay them. Players now a days aren’t like Hrbek and Puck and take discounts to stay with the team.
The Media says he made that statement, But him and his agent said they never said that. Believe who you wanna Believe
Tate: I think you’re right; reports surfaced that Santana would NOT waive his NTC during the season (I believe I saw that on Rotoworld). Take that as you will…who knows who said it, or if the reports possess any substance. It’s so hard to say.
Cordial Red Sox fan very nice!
Tate: It was reported that Johan had taken that position… but that report was debunked by his agent and the Twins FO. Of course, he may very well take that position, but there is no indication that he has done so yet. Many (including myself) find it hard to believe that, if Johan has the chance to play for a contender mid-season, that he wouldn’t consider waiving his no-trade clause for that opportunity.
mlb trade rumors, i didnt know the rockies dipped their head into the santanta trade talk. who do they have that would be worth talking about?
Bill Smith has not overplayed his hand. From a talent and need standpoint, the Lester/Crisp/Lowrie/Masterson deal is the best offer that has actually been made (assuming the Ellsbury deal is a 3-1 or the 4th would be a low level prospect, which I am sure is the case). The rumors that have been tossed round in here and other places are not real offers. The Red Sox offer will be there, it is just too good for the Red Sox to pass up. So why would Smith make a deal that he values less than that Lester trade baseline? He knows he can make that deal whenever he wants, so he is waiting to see if someone gives him somthing better- so far no one has. If no one does, we take that deal.
The only deal that we may have missed out on is the Hughes/Cabrera/Marquez/Hilligos deal- but even that trade was reportedly turned down by the Yankees.
I am annoyed with the echo chamber that keeps repeating the “overplayed his hand” myth.
Atkins?
Ian Stewart?
Ramon Ortiz?
Here is another question then:
If Santana might be open to a mid-season trade would that trade be any better or any worse (from the Twins’ perspective) than a trade now? Is BS actually fine with taking JS in to the season?
To tell you the truth, I have assumed that a possibility that a trade hasn’t been done is that deals (like the Ellsbury and some of the Hughes deals) have been actually OFF the table - maybe since the winter meetings. No way to know, of course - just a hunch - and it is actually unlike Theo to pull a deal since none of the factors that made it make sense originally have changed.
Maybe your BS is satisfied to take Santana in to the season, though. The Yankees do not look to have enough innings eaters to get through the season as it stands now even if the youngsters perform as hoped and perhaps the Mets seem unlikely to get over the top without some addition.
Maybe BS thinks that one of these teams (or another) will decide that they actually need Santana this year (as opposed to waiting for free agency) as they get closer to ‘08 playoff run?
This seems like a huge gamble to me, but I’m interested in how Twins fans see that possibility. It means a run from your team could keep him, but just as easily means that you have to be prepared to take the draft pick when no one will return to their original offers.
Tate: A mid-season trade is hard to predict. Depends on too many factors and we don’t have a crystal ball to see who will need him the most, how their prospects will perform between now and then, or how much value there is to that team to add Santana at that time. Could be that the packages get sweeter than they are now. Could be that the packages are worse. In my opinion, BS has to get what he wants for Johan or he goes into the season. Of course, if he does that, he may be left with draft picks. But that’s what the system provides. No way does it play well here if Santana is traded for a compromise package that can’t be sold to the public.
Tate,
Holding onto Santana into the season is a huge, stupid risk.
Draft picks don’t compare to any of the past, current or future trade offers.
Plus, the Twins would gain $13.25 million in Santana’s unpaid salary to use on free agents, 2008 draft choice signings and contract extensions for Morneau, Cuddyer, Liriano, Young and Mauer.
Pick the best offer at the best time and TRADE HIM!!!
JT,
What plays well or sells better to the public?
(1)Two crummy draft choices (ie. Torii Hunter compensation)or
(2)Jon Lester, Coco Crisp, Jed Lowrie and Justin Masterson (or whatever you consider the worst offer)?
If the public picks choice #1, then the public is too stupid to be considered.
If you want the public to make the decision, keep reading these blogs for a while, then rethink that choice.
JT - I can see having to sell the package to the public, but I’ve got to agree with Sane - I think you’ve got to take the best deal on the table now and realize that is the market.
I’m sorry to repeat myself, but I only see our (Red Sox) deals going backwards from your perspective. If you are okay with getting draft picks (wouldn’t be my first choice) then string it out, but won’t be getting any more from the Red Sox, I don’t think.
A mid-season trade would be worse than waiting until the end of the year. This waiting game crapola would drag all the way to July - I don’t think I could take that.
If they don’t move Johan before Opening Day I don’t see it happening at all. What an awful distraction during the season.
There is one thing everyone seems to be fogetting. Everyone wants major league ready talent in return for Johan. With the additions the Tigers have made this offseason and the White Sox, it is going to be hard to contend with or with out Johan. I think the best young talent out there is with The Mets. Why not offer up Santana and Span see if the Mets would throw Martinez in the deal. You would have Gomez who could step in and play CF this year and you have Martinez for down the road when it is either time to part ways with Cuddy or move him to third. Think about this outfield 2-3 years from now Young, Gomez and Martinez. We have pitchers, i don’t know why everyone is so insistant on getting back 15 pitchers. Our whole farm system and everything we have been told by management for the last 5 years is based around these stud pitchers we supposedly have. Unless they have been lying to us for years we should be set with pitching talent. I would just really hate to see us not make a deal before the season, go in to the season with Johan and not be able to trade him and loose him to FA like we did with Hunter. that would probably be almost enough to push me over the edge as a Twins Fan. And for everyone that says sign him to an extension, come to your senses, Carl is not going to pony up the money for him and even if he did what would that leave us with, for cash to pay the rest of the team. We would be in the same spot we are now, 1 good pitcher and 2-3 good bats.
What is the best package? What is the worst? I don’t know. Therefore, I can’t state without reservation that 2 draft picks (plus a year of Johan in our rotation at a bargain price) is not better than any package out there. What’s really out there could be total garbage that would make me vomit in my mouth. Frankly, the Yankees stuff sounds like crud and I wouldn’t trade Johan for what has been rumored out there. While I think I can stomach the Lester/Crisp/Lowrie/Masterson package, I’m not sure it would get me fired up and put my butt in the seats for more games this year. And probably even less so for the rest of the “public”, especially casual fans. The rumored Ellsbury package is settling in my opinion - much like the Lester package. And the Mets offer has to get better for BS to even consider it. So, I might not like it, but the reality might end up being that the draft picks are what the baseball gods are gonna leave us. I’m not going to lose sleep over it. That’s BS’s problem.
Correct me if I am wrong, but the only offers that we believe the Twins could have taken so far are:
Gomez/Guerra/Mulvey/Humber
Lester/Crisp/Lowrie/Masterson
Ellsbury/Lowrie/Masterson
A Yankee offer with Hughes that was less than Hughes/Cabrera/Marquez/Hilligoss (since it has been reported that the Yankees turned down that offer).
None are very impressive- I like Ellsbury a lot, but I think we need starting pitching talent in return, so I lean towards the Lester deal. All options are better than two picks, the jury is out on what the best pitcher in the Majors could bring at the trade deadline of his FA year- Im not sure it has ever been done. Since teams get pretty desperate, it is at least possible the market could return more then- but you take the gamble that he refuses to wave his no trade clause. (Although, as a competitor, he would likely welcome a chance to go to a contender).
“the jury is out on what the best pitcher in the Majors could bring at the trade deadline of his FA year- Im not sure it has ever been done. Since teams get pretty desperate”
Wasn’t Randy Johnson dealt to the Astros at the deadline in the late 90’s (from Seattle)?
I think that if the mets were to throw in F Mart the deal is done! Take the trade and move on to trying to sign Morneau-I think we would look to trade Nathan and eventually cuddyer
TA-
you are correct for Freddie Garcia, Carlos Guillen, and John Halama…
He was 9-10 with a 4.33 ERA at the time of the trade, but he was comming off probably his best season, 1997 (20-4, 2.28 ERA 291 Ks)
That was without a window to negotiate a deal- really just a half of a season. A very nice haul for Seattle.
Trading Santana in July is nonsense.
He will invoke NTC and wait 2 months for free agency because:
He will be offered seven years/$200-$250 million, because NO PROSPECTS (Hughes, Ellsbury, Martinez) will be traded to the Twins.
He would be offered less years, less money (5 years/$120 million?)by a July trade partner because PROSPECTS MUST BE TRADED to the Twins.
He would not agree to go to a contender in July and give up that much money and security.
Conclusion - Trade him now while free agency is 10 months away
Interesting, Mariner fans were up in arms as they though they would get more in return for Johnson. The Yankees decided against the trade because they liked Hideki Irabu too much. Wow, that is funny.
Other names mentioned:
Ramiro Mendoza,
Orlando Hernandez
Dave Burba and Brian Giles
“He will invoke NTC and wait 2 months for free agency”
We do not know that for sure. Why would he rather pitch a half of a season with a team that is out of the playoffs more than a team that may win a world series title? He will be 29 and has tasted the playoffs but never been on a successful team. Everything we have seen with him suggests that he is a competitor that wants to win more than anything (see comments after Castillo trade this past season). Also, he appears to want to allow the Twins to make the best deal possible regarding him now, why would that change? There is no indication that he would be vendictive and envoke his NTC just to do it…
The “Johan will envoke the NTC” myth is being pushed by NY and Bos fans that want BS to be rushed into accepting an inferior deal.
Ryan: if memory serves me, R. Johnson helped the Astros win the Central, where they lost to the Braves (which including a string of playoff defeats to them, I THINK).
I think Rick Sutcliffe was traded in mid year as well (when he went on to win the Cy Young)…also, Doyle Alexander for John Smoltz.
god forbid we start the season with santana….if hes less than perfect, we will be screwed all together…the trade packages will be less and the distractions 10 times worse than now….there is no way he starts the season unless we sign him and keep him..haahaha…or trade him NOW, NOW, NOW
Ryan - I think it is pretty clear that there is evidence right on this board that at least one Boston fan isn’t pushing any myth, I’m just asking.
At the same time I think its important to remember that we are not just talking about a mid-season trade, but also a mid-season contract negotiation, and not just any negotiation, but a negotiation for the biggest contract ever given to a pitcher in the history of MLB.
Think about the negative impact of the A-Rood announcement during the WS. I don’t think anyone would prefer to have negotiations going on while they are playing. Maybe the, “distraction” argument gets played up to much, but if there ever one this would be it!
He would not invoke NTC “just to do it”
He would do it for security and a ton of money.
That is not vindictive, that is intelligent. He has family, friends and poor countrymen whom he can help with the money.
Tate- I didnt mean all Bos and NY fans, just some. And the MN fan’s sense of fatalism plays into it as well- to be fair.
There have been reports that Santana will not waive his no-trade powers during the year.
RyanW: Please show us where Santana and his agent have not said this was the case? What’s your basis for saying it’s not true?
From Fox news:
NASHVILLE, Tenn. - It might be now or never for the Twins if they wish to trade left-hander Johan Santana.
According to major-league sources, Santana has informed the Twins that he would not waive his no-trade clause during the season, ending any chance that he could be moved before the July 31 non-waiver deadline. http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7517774
From the Trib - your hometown newspaper If Santana will waive during the season, it’s easy for him to say so and take the burden off the Twins to make a trade now. Santana says he loves the Twins..
Santana speaks (sort of) and Twins are mad about Hanky-Panky.
Monday, December 3rd, 2007
The Star Tribune has just been contacted by Johan Santana’s agent, Peter Greenberg.
Greenberg said Santana is mad after reading reports that he’s ordered the Twins to trade him to either Boston or New York.
“Johan told me to tell you that’s completely inaccurate,’’ Greenberg said. “He’s upset about that. He’s put no limitations on (Twins GM Bill Smith) to do his job.’’
Greenberg declined to confirm if Santana would waive his no-trade clause if he’s still with the Twins when the 2008 season starts. “That’s a long way away,’’ Greenberg said.
I was reminded by a Twins official this morning that Smith and Greenberg have an excellent working relationship, which likely is a key factor during this critical point in trade talks.
Now, back to Steinbrenner-gate.
A Twins official this morning confirmed that the club is not pleased with comments made by Yankees senior vice president Hank Steinbrenner about trade talks involving Santana.
When asked if he thought the comments constituted tampering, the official replied, “We’re not happy. We’ll deal with this internally.’’
Steinbrenner made his comments on Sunday while threatening to pull out of talks with the Twins over the two-time Cy Young award winner.
While charging that the Twins were playing his team against the Red Sox in the Santana sweepstakes, he said the following:
“Because as much as I want Santana, and you can make that clear — for his sake, to know that I do want him — but the fact is that I’m not going to play the game,’’ Steinbrenner said.
It’s unsure if the Twins will pursue tampering charges (or what the penalties are) but it’s definitely added even more spice to the Twins attempts to trade Santana - as if more was needed.
TA- Johnson was lights out for the Stros, even for two months, that deal was lauded as a great move for Houston at the time.
I guess it remains to be seen how desperate teams will be at the break for pitching
“from Fox News”
enough said.
“He would not invoke NTC “just to do it. He would do it for security and a ton of money”
How would envoking his NTC give him more security or money? Presumably he would be able to negotiate a long term deal sooner if he was dealt (security) or if he didnt negotiate a long term deal with his new team the FA market for his services would be the same (if not higher- if he performed well in the post season).
Envoking the NTC does not provide a player either security or more money. In fact, being traded to a team that will sign you to an extension would actually be the only way to get either of those things.
The only players that actually do envoke their NTC (see Phil Nevin in SD) usually do so because of personal reasons- Nevin lived in SD and the Padres were in first place.
Santana lives in Fort Meyers and the Twins will likely be out of contention. Players envoking their full NTC is actually quite rare- instead it is used to limit the teams to be traded to.
you know what, if the Yankees are not willing to give up hughes, i will take Kennedy and Tabata,
From:
http://www.townhall.com/news/sports/2007/12/03/agent_santana_not_limiting_destinations
Greenberg said Santana has not requested a trade or ruled out returning to the Twins next season.
“He really hasn’t tried to tie Bill’s hands at all,” Greenberg said. “He wants him to get best deal possible, and we’ll go from there.”
The left-hander is due $13.25 million next season in the final year of his deal, can become a free agent following the 2008 season and hasn’t agreed to an extension with the Twins. The $126 million, seven-year deal Barry Zito agreed to with the San Francisco Giants last winter may have priced the Twins out of Santana’s range.
“He hasn’t ruled anything out,” Greenberg said. “It’s in their hands.”
From MLBtraderumors last season 6/24 regarding Mark Buehrle trade rumors- pending FA lefty (not in same class as Santana)- to gauge possible market…
Red Sox Emerge As Top Buehrle Suitor
Here’s something we didn’t see coming. According to Joe Cowley of the Chicago Sun-Times, the Red Sox have emerged as the frontrunner for southpaw Mark Buehrle. They’ve jumped ahead of the Braves and Mets on the strength of their farm system.
Cowley says talks between Buehrle and the White Sox regarding an extension are basically dead. Now Boston has taken center stage, even sending assistant GM Allard Baird to watch Buehrle’s last start (a typical fine effort from him).
Cowley believes a major motivation for the Red Sox is keeping Buehrle away from the Yankees. The Red Sox would apparently give him a five year extension. Possible targets for Kenny Williams: Clay Buchholz, Michael Bowden, Jacoby Ellsbury, and Jed Lowrie. In my opinion: two of those guys, done deal. Buchholz is arguably the best pitching prospect in the minors, and would make White Sox fans forget about Buehrle fairly quickly.
Williams plans to sit back and listen to all offers first, of course. According to Cowley, at least seven teams have made serious contact.
I thought Buerhle signed an extension in midseason last year???
how about throwing in Alan Horne.
This is who Houston gave up for Randy Johnson - short term versus long term
July 31, 1998: Traded by the Seattle Mariners to the Houston Astros for a player to be named later, Freddy Garcia, and Carlos Guillen. The Houston Astros sent John Halama (October 1, 1998) to the Seattle Mariners to complete the trade.
RyanW,
Invoke NTC = free agency where SEVERAL teams BID for your services.
Those teams don’t have to surrender prospects to sign Santana.
Hold on to your prospects and offer more money / more years or
Give up prospects and offer less money / less years.
Read the Yankee quotes - I paraphrase:
To offer that kind of money and a 7-year contract in addition to giving up Hughes, Melky etc. is too much.
Buerhle did.. but there were trade discussions.
Santana could be dealt without a condidtion for extension… like Randy Johnson was in 1998 (thus 2 months with the Astros). Players can be dealt and STILL enter FA after the season- thus no finacial advantage.
RyanW:
So where is your proof that Santana will allow himself to be traded during the year. Thumbing your nose at ken Rosenberg of Fox Sports, I am not sure why you would do that?
All indications are Santana will pitch through the season and then go FA, if he’s not traded. Getting traded in midseason, means upheaval - going to a new city, new teammates.. lots more stress
The advantages of no midseason trade would then be he can choose his team, based on the best situation and best price. Example, maybe as a FA, he wants to pitch in the warm climes of Arizona and enjoys Randy Johnson’s company or Brandon Webb. Then he can choose the Diamondbacks. Also, Johan loves Jake - as in Peavy - Hello San Diego.
There ar advantages to FA
I think that we all got spoiled when we traded A.J. for Liriano and Nathan,and know we want that in every trade.
*Now
RyanW:
So you think Boston is going to give up Lester, Lowrie etc or the Yanks Hughes etc or the Mets Martinez/Garcia etc without Johan signed on the dotted line for 5-7 years?
Well you are the optimist. Look what Houston gave up for a few months of Randy Johnson, who was great in reg season and playoffs, but gone the next year.
roundabout
AS a yankee fan what do you think of Alan Horne? What do the Yankees think of him?
Twincity,
Horne’s a big kid with a mid-90s fastball and a big curve.. the stereotypical hard thrower.
He’s been fairly dominant on the minors from what I read.
He’s a top 10 Yankee prospect.. The Yanks expect him, I think, to make the team as a mid-reliever or spot starter. It’s his time.
That said. Remember throwing hard or fast is not a guarantee for success. Sticking with the Yanks, see Kyle Farnsworth and.or Brian Bruney. Fast but straight and not always accurate
I think you look for a guy who throws hard with movement (see Mariano Rivera or Santana)..
But Horne has a curveball and I assume some off-speed.
Overall, he’s a good prospect for the majors. How successful he will be in the majors, we shall see this year.
I know there was once speculation from Joe-C that Jackson may be considered in a package with Hughes… I say forget about Cabrera, since NY has no other CF and they put so much worth in him (I think he’d have as much impact as Tyner). Ask for Hughes, Jackson, and some other position prospects like Sublett or Suttle. We have enough pitchers right? Would NY make this trade?
The Yankees view Austin Jackson (20) and Jose Tabata (19 and a Yankee since 16) - two top prospects on most independent rankings - as their future outfield, maybe with Melky Cabrera (now 23)
But Johan Santana is always tempting - so maybe one. Those who seek both Tabata and Jackson are asking for too much cause it aint happening.
Austin Jackson
Born 2/1/1987
OF, NYY
Another very young Yankees prospect who’s frustrated scouts by only showing flashes of his tremendous potential. Promoted from the South Atlantic League to the Florida State League in 2007, he started to show the ability to hit to all fields. A natural gap hitter, if his bat can catch up to his speed and defense, he’ll have a future with the Yankees, or in one of their looming trade packages.
Jose Tabata
Born 8/12/1988
OF, NYY
Tabata is a polished fielder who’s almost major-league ready, despite his young age. A natural right fielder with excellent patience, many saw him as a natural fit to replace Gary Sheffield in right for the Yankees, but the long-term signing of Bobby Abreu seems to have squished that plan. He needs another year or two of mental development, but other than that and a place to play, there’s not much holding him back.
Tabata is likely to be sought after in trades by teams who have more immediate needs than New York, and if one of those teams gets a hold of the young line-drive hitter, the likelihood of a debut in the near future will go up sharply.
The Mariners actually got a nice package from the Astros for two months of Johnson without a negotiating window. Garcia, Gullien and Halama- sounds a little like Lester, Lowrie and Masterson to me. I think with a negotiating window and an extention the take could be simular to current offers, if not more (imagine an injury to Wang or Maine). I do agree that without an extension, the market will be lower… maybe a 1-1 or a 2-1 type deal.
Besides, you can not discount the security of pitching undar a long term deal (even for the last two months of the season) Every pitch this year, Santana will be a legiment tear away for loosing a boatload of money. No pitcher in their right mind (i.e. not being represented by Scott Boras) would prefer the insecurity of pitching without a contract to the security of pitching with one.
As for the Rosenthal story, there have been at least two published reports since that story that discredit it. Peter Greenberg has twice been quoted as saying that there is no plan to request a trade right now or threaten to use his NTC during spring training or during the season. So no, I do not take it seriously. Rosenthal is right sometimes, but he is wrong is about as often.
Besides, all of this discards everything we have seen with this guy in his career. He is a competitor, it is in his bones. He wants to win, and more than anything he wants to win a world series. To assume he would pass on a chance to move to a contending team for the chance that he might make more money in the FA market is absurd. This is Johan Santana, not Kyle Lohse…
RyanW,
Then you are saying the Twins are under NO pressure to trade Johan Santana before the season starts and could wait until the season to pull off a deal, possibly at deadline.
Would the Twins be in a better position then, than now? Right now, going into the season, the Twins can dictate the players, to some degree.
Come the pressure of the moment, when the Twins face losing Santana for two draft picks, you might get less.
Maybe come deadline time, the Twins might be forced to give up Santana for say Coco (riding the pine) and Masterson. Or maybe Marquis and Melki is all you get from the Yanks or whatever from Seattle or the Mets.
And there still is no guarantee that Santana will pull out his No Trade Clause. So, you could end up getting Zip for Santana.
You want to take that chance?
Post those articles saying the NTC is not play once the season starts.
No, I am not saying they are “under NO pressure,” I am saying it is possible to make a deal at the deadline, something people in here refuse to believe.
Theoretically, you are correct, now is a better time to deal him. However, the need that other teams have seems to be less right now than it may at the deadline. The Yankees for example, can rationalize that their starting rotation will be fine this season. They look at Kennedy, Joba and Hughes optimistically, they count on Pettite and Mussina to be healthy, etc. However, that could be different at the break… injuries, sophomore slumps, etc happen. The need could actually be more dramatic than it is now. History has shown us that there are anywhere from 4-6 teams that are desperate for starting pitching help at the deadline. I am just saying it is possible, at least, that the market might be better at the deadline. While the Twins will have little leverage, they will have more competition for their product.
RyanW:
I think rolling the dice with the future of the Twins franchise takes guts…
I’d hope the Yanks, if in pitching trouble, wouldn’t give up the store - like Joba and/Hughes for Santana, plus a top prospect outfielder, like Jackson or Tabata. I could be wrong..
Good Luck..
I think trading Santana for Gomez, Guerra, Mulvey and Humber… none of whom could ever become even an average ML player right now would take some guts too.
http://canadianpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5gGN5NDK-LzLAqlKrufH82wzYezvA
“I’m a Minnesota Twin. That’s all I know. It’s up to them. Whatever they have to do is going to happen. It has nothing to do with me at all,” Santana told the News-Press. “I said it from the beginning during the season last year, whatever will be the best for this team and this organization, I’ll agree with that.”
“Greenberg, in an e-mail, also insisted that he has not demanded to Smith that he complete a deal before Twins pitchers and catchers are scheduled to report on Feb. 17.”
Not exactly the words from someone that who is demanding a trade or will invoke a NTC. That was from last week… almost a month and a half after the Rosenthal column.
RyanW,
I am not sure that says what you think it says. Regardless, for the Twins, Trading Santana before the season starts will work out better than during the summer. More varibles - including injuries - come into play.
Heyman of Sports Illustrated
The Twins’ tough call
Best offers for Santana are likely already on the table
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/jon_heyman/01/16/scoop.wednesday/index.html
RyanW,
Why didn’t Greenberg say that he has not demanded a trade before opening day?
Sane- there was a report in November that he said that, but since he has distanced himself from those reports…
The comments do not sound like someone who is threatening to envoke a NTC… With Greenberg and Smith’s working relationship, I wouls assume Smith knows Santana’s stance on his NTC during the season.
Do you have to say that you arnt saying something?
My point is that he could have eliminated OPENING DAY as a deadline but, instead, he chose to eliminate the START OF SPRING TRAINING as a deadline.
I agree that BS probably knows Santana’s actual deadline (if he has one) and would probably act accordingly.
For that reason, I expect BS to do the right thing and not delay past the point where Santana invokes NTC.
I don’t know if you twins fans have been living in a cave over the last month or so but you need to stop demanding trades as if your in the position to do so. The only team that is desperate for santana is the mets. The yankees and RedSox don’t need santana, I mean it would be nice to have him but their not desperate for him. The Yankees And boston are Championship contenders with or without Santana. AS hank steinbrenner said last week “we are not chasing anybody”.
