Twins sign Livan Hernandez
Posted on February 12th, 2008 – 10:14 AMBy Joe Christensen
The Twins have signed starting pitcher Livan Hernandez to a one-year, $5 million contract, the Star Tribune has learned. The signing was first reported by FoxSports.com.
Hernandez, who turns 33 on Feb. 20, went 11-11 with a 4.93 ERA last season for the Arizona Diamondbacks.
He made $7 million last year for Arizona, and a person familiar with the negotiations said his new deal includes incentives that can bring the value to $7 million.
After trading Johan Santana to the Mets and losing Carlos Silva to free agency, the Twins had lost two workhorses who combined to pitch 421 innings last year. Since 2000, Hernandez’s year-by-year inning totals are 240, 226, 216, 233, 255, 246, 216 and 204.
The Twins had said they weren’t interested in signing a veteran pitcher if they thought he would only block a path for their younger starters, as Sidney Ponson and Ramon Ortiz did last year. But in a thin free agent class, Hernandez was one of the better starters on the board.
His signing shows how the market has shrunk since Silva signed his four-year, $48 million contract with the Mariners on Dec. 20.
The Twins’ starting rotation now could look something like this: Francisco Liriano, Scott Baker, Hernandez, Boof Bonser and Kevin Slowey — with Glen Perkins, Nick Blackburn, Phil Humber, Kevin Mulvey, Brian Duensing, Zach Day and Randy Keisler all challenging for spots.
Update: The Twins plan to make an official announcement about the Hernandez signing at 2 p.m.
363 Responses to "Twins sign Livan Hernandez"
What a waste of $5 Mil. Not much better than Ponson or Ortiz and the results will be the same. Yuck.
Woops, I just threw up in my mouth a little.
Carlos Silva at an almost 60% discount.
Solid signing.
Average Joe
What a waste of $5 Mil. Not much better than Ponson or Ortiz and the results will be the same. Yuck.
hey, since when is 30+ starts, 200+ innings a bad signing?
i agree with B
it is kinda like silva at half the price..
Livan is a at least two steps above Ponson and Ortiz. He is also preferable to Lohse and will provide 200 innings of average pitching thus saving the bullpen and some of the young pitchers.
Liriano cannot be expected to pitch over 150 innings and no one who was slated to be in the rotation had ever pitched more than 200 innings. Livan can help and be traded in July if he pitches alright.
Give him a chance. Even if he wins only 11 games, that’s probably 3 more than Blackburn would win. 200 innings can’t be baf. An ERA over 5 is bad. Under 5 is pretty good in today’s MLB.
If Livan wins 11 games he will be this teams MVP. 11 wins will be about a sixth of their total victories this season.
hey, since when is 30+ starts, 200+ innings a bad signing?
When it’s 30 crappy starts and 200+ crappy innings. Let the young guns eat those innings and develop.
I agree on the Silva analogy…. We can trade him mid season if(when) we are out of it. I don’t hate this signing
I like the signing amid the talk of signing Fogg, etc. Many will think that it’s a waste of $$ and I can see their point. However, a veteran arm is great to go with young arms and good in case someone goes down (always happens).
Pros: Innings eater, will give you 35 starts per year, playoff experience, veteran presence at a decent price, doesn’t roll over and die like Ponson/Ortiz.
Cons: ERA, HR’s (though Santana had a lot as well last year), walks too many batters.
Overall, I like it. I see Liriano, Bonser, Baker, Hernandez, and Slowey to start the year. Perkins in the pen.
Helps us keep it interesting this year, solid veteran middle of the rotation inning eater.
Lets us build our 2009-10 staff on our own terms without having to rush someone.
If a piece of 2009-10 is ready to step in at any point during the year, Livan steps aside.
If Livan does well, he becomes a valuable trade piece to a contender at the deadline.
Go Bill Smith!
He becomes the best DH on the team 
He’s also a Class B free agent, so if we keep him through the year and lose him, do we get a sandwich pick?
Question is this: Does he start opening day?
Rick Anderson said none of the FA pitchers were better than what we already had. ’nuff said.
Hernandez could be better than Ponson and Ortiz, but what are the Twins going to do with the other $17 million they are saving by not paying Hunter and Santana their 2008 salaries?
Ben
He may not be a Type B Free Agent after this season. It depends on how well he does. The Twins don’t lose anything for a Type B Free Agent do they? I don’t think they do but I guess I am not sure how the new rules work.
John
I’m hoping that money goes to scouting, the draft, and maybe even signing some young latin players that normally ask for more than the Twins are willing to pay. Plus I’m sure at least $5 million will go towards the stadium. I’m not say that is right or wrong but that is just my guess.
i think the sandwich pick is given by MLB, don’t think it comes from the team.
This is acceptable. Now on to signing an experienced CF.
Good signing - can’t hurt anything.
He’s never pitched in the American League, so maybe he’ll have a productive first half of the season, at least…until hitters figure him out.
I like the signing. Helps the young kids out a little bit with some veteran leadership.
Also Diddy
I don’t think we should sign a FA CF give the spot to either Pridie or Gomez whoever wins out of ST, I would throw span in there but he is worthless and should be off the team.
This is a good signing. The Twins had no proven innings eaters in the rotation. Plus it gives Liriano a hispanic veteran to feel comfortable with. You plug this guy in the rotation and every days he gives you a 6/7 innings. Every fifth day he gives your bullpen a rest.
I
Livan can teach our young pitchers how to duck
and how to back up third base.
L like it, good back-up for the youth. Hopefully pitching in a new league will help him. This should complete the off season.
Is the idea to build a solid .500 team?
Im wondering how many more innings are left in that arm
I like it, 200 innings, I’ll take that any year.
NO the idea is to not put all the burden on the young pitchers let them grow with a veteran pitcher in the rotation and they will be ready for 09-10 and we will have a great staff then.
I see the Twins are back to their old ways.
The guy had a huge ERA in the National League terrible signing. I rather just throw a young in there to get some experience.
Tom Verducci from SI.com had a great article regarding young pitchers and the strain on the arm for incremental innings pitched. Read the article and then tell my why 200+ innings for only $5m is a bad thing.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/tom_verducci/02/05/verducci.YAE/index.html
This is a great signing Kudos to Bill Smith on this one!!
Average Joe is a DA :)nuff said
We need someone to eat innings and this is the best guy available to do that.
Also, bank on the fact that Liriano will start in the bullpen and be slowly stretched out. Because of that we would be starting the year with Baker, Bonser, Slowy and two completly raw guys (not that those first three aren’t light on experience). Now we start with only one raw guy who will be replaced once Liriano is streched out and babied along.
Baker
Hernandez
Bonsor
Slowy
Perkins
(Liriano in the pen to replace who falters say end of May start of June)
Good move.
Different than last year’s Ponson/Ortiz signings. They were brought in with hopes of them making a comeback to their old form.
With Hernandez the Twins know what they’re getting and that’s someone to eat up innings at the back of the rotation.
Everyone here wanted them to sign Fogg, well they signed a better and more proven pitcher in Hernandez, IMO
I predicted earlier that somebody would compare this to Ponson, and it took all of one post.
I swear some people expect us to be able to sign Santana back at 5 million per year. Give me a break.
He is Carlos Silva at half the price. It is a nice signing. I implore anybody to find any suggestion for adding anybody at the same or less money to do the same job.
And anybody who thinks that sending Glen Perkins out 35 times this year is the answer should just enjoy their silver butterknife steak and shut up.
I think the Twins needed a vet somewhere in the rotation,but the 4.93 NL ERA is a little alarming.He has spent most of his career in the NL I believe,so maybe he can baffle AL hitters for half a season or so.I saw he was listed at 6′2″ 220lbs.If he’s 220 Boof was 220 last year.More like 250+.He has been very durable though, and gives Gardy another pinch hitting option.The guy can hit.
I agree with those stating no Vet CFer.Let Pridie and Gomez have at it in spring training.I think the Twins got a good player in Pridie.If Gomez beats him out Pridie becomes the best fourth OFer the Twins have had in some time.
B
Great link, I read that article last week. It should show everyone why, just throwing the young arms in there is not a good idea.
You can argue whether or not Livan was the right veteran but you can’t argue that the Twins needed a veteran arm to eat innings.
Paul - I should think a solid .500 team in 2008 would mean the very young starting pitching has come along better than anyone could have imagined.
John - Why does the team need to spend the “other $17m” they saved from not resigning Santana, Hunter and Silva? Should they sign Bonds and Sosa just so fans can feel vindicated?
Hard to believe the Twins signed another scrap heap player nobody else wanted. If absolutely nobody wanted him, he’d have cost ‘em $1 million, a la Ponson. This is more like an Ortiz signing. People need a .500-caliber pitcher to try and fill the void otherwise created by unproven rookies, so they’re willing to throw a few million at somebody like Hernandez, driving the price up to $5, nearly out of the Twins’ league. But he’s still a better bargain than a long-term Silva deal, especially at Mariner pricing.
Yeah the article on young pitchers: How about Detroit sticking w/ there young pitchers that seemed to get them wins. How about when we stuck with Milton May etc? Then we started winning. I like giving experience to the young guns.
i always have a special place in my heart for anybody who doesn’t know how old he actually is.
I still haven’t figured out if we are rebuilding this year or trying to compete? (albeit poorly)… Signing veteran FA’s and bad contracts are what ruin a “small market” team…
Hernandez $5M+
Monroe 3.82M
Evertt 2.8M
Lamb 2.7M this year
Punto 2.4M
$16.72M+ could get you a pretty good talent to fill one of our holes for a long time and not just 1-2 years of a rent-a-center player(s).
I’m just saying I wish it was clear as to what they are attempting to do… it seems they are rebuilding, but I think there’s other places that money could be used for…
You guys complaining about this signing are acting like the Twins are World Series Contenders. The Twins are planning for the future and to do that you can’t wear out your young pitchers arms during a meaningless season. I would be shocked if the Twins finished above or even around .500.
im just wondering why so many negative fans or is is just the thing to be negative…all the positive people just keep quiet and go about their business…i see no reason to be negative at all…ive been hoping all along that they would sign a veteran to go along with all these kids…this is great..this livan has tremendous experience and post season experience to go along with it…the kids can learn alot from someone like him..congrats bill smith… i think you have done a marvelous job and i for one am very excited about this team..more so than in any other past years recently, and spring training hasnt even started…i believe we are solid 1-9 and the bench is much better…its just a matter of pitching and im sure livan can do nothing but help….play ball!!!!! and look out cleveland, detroit and chicago….were comin fellas….
Oh, here come the fairweather Twins fans who know little to nothing about baseball. “Grumble, grumble, waste of money, blah blah blah.” Why don’t you bums sneak in some cheap shots at Nick Punto while you’re at it. Just quit watching, quit coming to the games, and for god’s sake - quit it with your stupid, ignorant commentary.
Coomer’s Belly
After reading that SI.com article you think the Twins should just leave the young arms out there? I think you missed the point of the article. Plus what did Milton or May ever win the Twins?
The Twins spend money, $5 million on a guy who historically pitches 200 innings and you guys complain?
Also, what no one has mentioned, we have a pretty good pitching coach. How about this guy has his best season as a possibility?
MarkW,
Good overview of the salary situation.
Who should the Twins go after with that $16 million?
Terrible, terrible. We complain about not being able to sign our big name players, but then go out and sign Cuddyer, Hernandez, lamb, monroe, a bunch of non difference makers.
Hernandez line looks the same as Ortiz’s from before last year. Remember that? Ridiculous. Shame on the twins. This formula has not worked in the past.
Puke.
I don’t see a big difference b/t Hernandez and Silva.
Veteran presence on young staff, innings-eater, know what to expect, cheap price: what’s not to like?
Maybe Rick Anderson can help with some adjustments to maximize his performance.
Maybe Livan and Boof can help keep each other away from the buffet table!
I would like this move more if the Twins were contenders. As it is, i’m more interested in giving all of the innings to our young pitchers.
It’s not a bad move, it’s just not a real good move.
With or without this guy, there still going to win about as many games as last year…if that.
I still think they should have signed Kris Benson so Anna would come into town, but this isn’t a bad signing. Twins over the Mets in 6 games
Mark W
So you spend $16 million on one guy. How do you now fill the other 4 spots? Plus what player making $16 million is going to sign a one year deal? You have to remember that every player they have signed into the future will make more money as they get older, so that payroll flexibilty is smaller.
The signing of Livan Hernandez is a good thing. I wanted Fogg, but I didn’t think we could get Livan this cheap. The Twins need a veteran pitcher in the rotation. What he brings to the table is experience, and consistancy… He is the kind of guy that can give the bullpen a day off from time to time. He’ll never be Johan Santana, and a lot of people are whining already, but as Jama pointed out today, and I’ve said in the past. We didn’t hit 500 with the reigning MVP, CY Young, or Batting Champ… so quit acting like 5 million dollars to save the arms of our kids is a bad move.
The comparisons to Ponson and Ortiz are pretty unfair as well. in the last 10 years only 3 starting pitchers have consistantly made 30 starts… Hernadez, Glavine, and Maddux. Oh yeah, all three of them have world series titles, and while Hernandez is on the backside of a mediocre career… 30 starts 200 innings… with Liriano, Crain, Humber, and Perkins all coming off of arm issues in the last 18 months… I think a 5 million dollar insurance plan is a great move.
Also you fail to realize that he has value at the trade deadline if our kids are performing.
This signing tops the Mike Lamb signing ss the best FA signing of the 2008 season in my mind.
Bipolar Bill Smith… nice move today!
rghrbek says:
“Terrible, terrible. We complain about not being able to sign our big name players, but then go out and sign Cuddyer, Hernandez, lamb, monroe, a bunch of non difference makers.
Hernandez line looks the same as Ortiz’s from before last year. Remember that? Ridiculous. Shame on the twins. This formula has not worked in the past.
Puke.”
Starman says: You are an idiot!
Yeah, I think we basically just replaced Carlos Silva. I like the move because now at least one more of our young pitchers doesn’t HAVE to start. Why rush them? I like the signing. Theis sort of contract is what Silva was worth. I wonder if the Mariners are just kicking themselves.
cj2151
Read this article. It is the main reason the Twins need an inning eater.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/tom_verducci/02/05/verducci.YAE/index.html
I know this has already been posted, but you need to read the facts on young pitchers arms.
Who hits more HRs this season - Joe Mauer or Livan Hernandez?
I predict Livan’s three during interleague play will trump Joe’s 2 all season…
And finally, a bat off the bench when we need a clutch hit late in games… I’d take Livan over the likes of Tyner, LuRod, Ford, etc any day….
Twinster…
I think that I read that Anna divorced Kris Benson
She is hot, but her website… she’s pretty insane.
Wasn’t Livan the name of an Elton John song some years ago?
What I don’t get is the notion that from one side of the mouth people say “Waste of money - don’t get it at all”, and form the other side they say “The Tiwns have $22M to spend (now 17) they better sign some guys.”…
I mean who do you think is out there to sign? When Silva gets $11M per as the top tier FA starter and Lohse is next, that should be the first clue that its slim pickin’s out there.
They obviously could use a veteran in the rotation. $5M for Hernandez seems like a fair, market-rate deal for a guy with his track record. I am not saying they win it all, but they weren’t going to anyway (this year), and there isn’t anybody you could spend that money on to put us in a position to do so - not even Hunter or Santana.
So realize this team for what it is - a young team with a solid nucleus that doesn’t want to push it pitching prospects further than they are ready.
Lars,
Livan has way more power than Mauer… so if we can get him into 5 national league games this year… I say Livan 4 homers to Mauer’s 9 for the year… but the slugging percentage will be dominated by Hernandez, lol.
And why are any of you fools even talking about competing with Detroit and Cleveland? It’s not going to happen this year, don’t you get it? The twins are obviously putting pieces together for 2010. Hernandez is a one-year signing. He will eat a bunch of innings and keep the bullpen out of the game so they’re fresh when we need them to bail out all the kids you guys are so high on. It’s a perfect signing for this situation. “Boo hooo. What are we spending the extra money on? blah blah.” Look at the available starting pitchers on the market, you dopes. There’s not a lot out there right now.
I am actually surprised the the Twins fans are evenly split on this. I am ok with it, but thought most fans would hate it.
I want to punch Average Joe and rghrbek in the face.
These are the same idiots that complain that the Twins don’t spend money. Now they spend money and get probably the top free agent pitcher on the market.
Average Joe and rghrbek, get a life.
This might be a little off subject, but are any of the Twins young pitchers such as Perkins or any of the exMets pitchers out of options? I like the Livan signing but not if it could lose a young arm to the waiver wire.
Ryno…
Dude, they come at me as an angry guy.
I agree with you, but don’t forget to breathe…
do we have to give up draft picks for him?
Shawn
I thought most fans would hate it also. But I realize that most fans are complete idiots when it comes to the big picture.
Ryno- I’m with you, there was no chance to compete this year so this is a signing that saves arms in the long run.
Perkins definitely has another option year. There’s some question on Humber though. He could be out of options or have one year left. Anyone know for sure??????
JDW….
i don’t think any of them are out of options
The point is, are you rebuilding or trying to win a World Series?? What’s the point of finishing 4th or 3rd? If you can’t field a team that you actually think has a chance, then what are you doing? So does anyone on here feel that adding who we’ve added makes us a WS contender this year? I understand “saving” our young arms by the LH signing, I understand the stop gaps until a player is ready, but the Twins have been notorious for doing this over and over again, and never really solving their real issues. Who’s our answer at 3B once Mike Lamb is gone in 2 years? Have we figured this out, are we drafting one and then need another veteran for another 2 yrs at $6M per?
excellent signing, i wonder if fogg would have been a better signing though. But i will trust the Twins FO on this one.
Detroit is not going to be as good as everyone thinks. Sure they have Bats but besides Verlander they don’t have any other reliable starting pitching, and their bullpin is WAY overratted. The Indian are the real team to beat in this division and it’s not imposible for the Twins to compete with them… difficult… but not impossible.
if the twins are not playing to win in 08, just what the hell is going to be different in 09…this is our club and the kids are all young except for lamb and everett and even they arent ancient…so all this building etc that you talk about …whats going to be different except for another years experience and a tweak here and there…livan at this price is a steal..i liked silva and will miss him, and it will be interesting to compare him and livan this year…this club has lost a few great people, but i believe they are stronger right now than i have seen in quite a few years…time will tell i guess….
MarkW
I agree that 3B is really the only place where the Twins don’t have any sort of plan, but what team doesn’t have at least one position where they don’t have a long term answer? How does this signing affect 3B? This signing is a one and done to give the young pitchers a chance to increase arm strength and get experience without over doing it.
The point of the matter is we NEEDED an innings eater. And at 5 mil for a reliable innings eater is not a bad move at all, in fact it is a good move. What do you guys want? Do you want to over use our young pitchers and have three more cases of blown elblows? WE NEEDED AN INNINGS EATER. it is not like we are signing 3 or 4, we are signing 1. A great move that NEEDED to happen
Dustin F
If the Tigers pitching staff is weak what is the Twins pitching staff? They have one proven pitcher at this point and I think I would take Verlander over Livan. The only place the Twins have any strength is their bullpen and that is debateable do to the injuries.
Straight from Rob Neyer’s chat on ESPN.COM:
AJ Pesh: The MPLS Star Tribune is reporting the Twins have signed Livan Hernandez to a 1-yr deal worth $5 million. Thoughts?
Rob Neyer: (12:34 PM ET ) Umm … Didn’t they do the same thing last year with Ramon Ortiz? Hernandez will post a 5.47 ERA while that $5 million is flushed down the toilet.
ouch! pretty harsh.
I don’t think the Twins would even admit that they expect to compete for a World Series title this season. This signing is strictly a move to save young arms from over doing it. I don’t see why that is so hard to understand? Is it $5 million wasted? Not really, even if Livan wins 5 games as long as he goes over 200 innings he has done his job. It’s not rocket surgery.
Looking at our roster, we have a solid mix of vetern and young players. Our starting pitching is a little thin in experiance, which makes this signing great. Monroe gives us a solid option off the bench and Kubel seemed to start to figure things out last year. I would like to see alexi casilla take a step forward this year, and then him and gomez could be a force on the basepaths. There are so many unknowns right now that who knows what could happen. Tryiny to find that right mix is a game teams play every year and watching young players develop ie great, even if it is at the MLB level.
Pretty happy with this signing. Livan has been a solid pitcher, not great but solid. Plus, we are building for 2010, but we could still put together a solid run this year. We have a solid young core of position players (mauer, morneau, cuddyer, young) and some good prospects (good not great), plus you throw in some young guys that pitched relatively well last year (i.e. slowey, baker) and you could have quite the year. In 2001 no one thought we had a chance and look what we did.
A tweak here and there? Everett signed for 1 year, Lamb for 2, Livan for 1 yr, Monroe for 1 yr, none of these are long term solutions…2009 and 2010, I hope, are different than 2008.
Oh, and Nathan is a FA after this year, as well as Punto and I’d have to look, but I’m sure some of our RP’s are at the end of their contracts (Reyes, Crain, Rincon?)
You guys are hilarious. There was NOTHING else out there that would come close to 200IP - great move.
Now we’re only about 8 mil under last year with flexibility to add if necessary. This is the year they find out if Baker/Kubel/Boof/Liriano are worth locking up, and Sideburns will have to be extended as well.
I know it’s been cold but enough hate - let them play.
First off, I have my doubts that Livan Hernandez is really 33 years old. To put a gentle word on it, the ages of some Latin American players may well be estimates.
Still, I don’t mind this signing. We need someone who is going to chew up innings now that the Twins have given up on the “we’re going to stay competitive” angle. And I would have preferred Hernandez to Silva in any event.
The signing of Livan makes me think Liriano isn’t as close as people are hoping. The price is right and the term is perfect. Get the kids more seasoning in AAA and allows Liriano to work his way back slowly.
Baker
Boof
Hernandez
Slowey
Humber/Mulvey or Blackburn
Perkins will be lefthander in the pen
People keep saying since when is 200+ innings for $5mill a bad thing? It’s bad when last year in those 200 innings you gave up 79 walks to only 90 strikeouts, with a 4.93ERA and a batting average against of over .300 in the National League. I hope I am wrong, but I think we will be very frustrated watching Livan pitch this year.
This was a good, cheap signing! His arm will protect our young guys in what should be a season hovering around the .500 mark. And that’s fine with me…it gives us time for our young staff to develop into a winner by 2010.
Let’s not get upset at each other over this.
Arguing on the internet is like the special olympics. Even if you win, you’re still retarded.
I think we will be frustrated watching all the starters pitch this year.
I like the move.
Hard to believe how different the team is going to look this season.
Arizona gets a sandwich pick from MLB for a type “B” free agent. If he was a type “A” free agent, the Twins would have to give their first round pick. (For Hunter, a type “A” free agent, the Twins are getting a sandwich and the Angel’s first round pick for next year).
I don’t think the FO is done dealing this year. I would expect Nathan to get dealt at the deadline and now Hernandez could help a team down the stretch. These two guys will land the team the future 3b.
UN — this signing can be totally horrible. It really doesn’t matter we are fighting to stay out of last. The best thing is saving the kids arms especially Liriano (until you know he is back 100%). They get an extra year in AAA, then get a year of seasoning next year in the bigs prior to 2010 in the new stadium.
Now we need El Duque too to finish off the rotation - is he available?
The young starting pitchers who are “saving their arms” will be pitching every 5th day in AAA, instead of MLB.
How does that save their arms?
They will learn how to blow away career minor league hitters with pitching approaches that won’t work in MLB.
Just like Garza and Slowey, they will get positive reinforcement by succeeding the wrong way in AAA.
It is better to learn what WON’T work in MLB, fix it in AAA, then return to succeed in MLB.
Livan will steal development innings away from our young pitchers.
B
I hope so, that would be great
It’s a great pick up if he can pitch over 200 innings again, no matter what his era is, if nothing else it will save the bullpen from getting killed with all the young pitchers hoping to get out of the 4th innning.
UN
I don’t care if Livan’s ERA is 8 as long as he can go over 200 innings. Like I said this team isn’t winning anything this year anyway. This saves innings that the young guys should pitch in. Plus it should give the pen a little bit of a break.
I agree watching him will be difficult but it is good for the organization in the long run.
Also, if Livan gets blasted, he will have no value at the deadline, ala Ortiz and Ponson.
I have to respond to your guys’ line of remarks because I think a lot of you are thinking way beyond Unrealistically.
After Johan was traded, Did you really want to see a rotation of Baker, Bonser, Slowey, Perkins, Blackburn or MAYBE Liriano? That team would win no more than 50 games.
It is a rebuilding year obviously, but I don’t think 50 games is acceptable, but you can’t have a rotation consisting of 5 guys who have never spent an entire season (30+ starts) in a rotation, let alone 3 guys who have basically never pitched in the bigs and would most likely be considered rookies (slowey, blackburn, perkins). I don’t think any team in the history of MLB has started 3 rookies in their rotation, let alone been able to compete if there has been one. Another problem with trying to do that is somebody is going to get hurt when try to make those young guys throw more than they ever have in their young careers.
With those points made, this is the perfect signing for the twins. They picked up a guy who has consistently ate up over 200+ innings and has had some good success in doing so. Do you really think any of the twins starters before this signing and after the Santana trade were gonna win even 11 games this year? I don’t, so how can you say this is bad? It gives the Twins the luxury of bringing along any of the young guys they so choose slower to limit the risk of hurting them, and gives them a good veteran presence that they lacked after losing Santana.
Comparing Livan Hernandez to Ramon Ortiz or Sidney Ponson is also ludicrous in my opinion. Hernandez is and was better than them. I was actually hoping the twins would go out and sign Hernandez because I thought he would be the best fit and benefit the team the greatest, but I didn’t expect it and am pleasantly surprised. And the people who have said its like signing Silva at 1/2 price are exactly right, and I think he’s better than Silva. I don’t see how you could think this is a bad thing, especially when all those young guys you want to get innings just aren’t ready, careers of pitchers have been destroyed before by bringing them along to soon or making them throw too many innings to soon, the perfect example is FRANCISCO LIRIANO, and Glen perkins for that matter. Do you want the same thing to happen to all those young guys with bright futures like Slowey, Blackburn and Duensing? I would hope not, because thats who’s gonna be pitching in that new stadium.
just to throw another little tidbit in: Don’t expect anything from Liriano this year even remotely approaching what he did 2 years ago, If he can be HALF as good as he was then this year I would be happy and get the feeling he will return to form. But if he doesn’t want to get hurt again he’s gonna have to find a new pitch to replace that unhittable slider that blew up his arm in the first place, or refine his mechanics to put less torque on it(which will also limit its effectiveness), and you can’t be successful at the MLB level with only a Fastball and a Changeup. But I don’t think he starts the season in the rotation, and I also think thats the way it should be.
I wouldn’t mind if the Twins went after another long reliever also. Guerrier is going to be dead by the All Star break with how young this rotation is. Maybe that is where Perkins will work himself back into shape.
I’m sick of the naysayers & pessimists!
Bill Smith offered Torii $15mm/yr, he turned it down to sign essentially the same deal w/ LAA. Johan was offered 5 @ $20mm and was denied. I loved those guys too, but greed has become a factor. Puck & Hrbek signed way below market to stay, not the case anymore. Now they want to set the standard for their position. Livan is experienced, as like Kenny Rogers was. He’s not fantastic, but at least it’s a move to help & not deter.
Why does 200 innings cost $5M a year? You couldn’t bring back Ponson to do that if you didn’t care about losing the game?
Could have added $5M on to the contract offered to Santana…
How many innings, can an innings-eater eat, if he gives up 9 runs in the first?
What a miserable, wretched, putrid signing. All this does is block a rung on the ladder for a younger, more talented pitcher. You’re kidding yourselves if you think Hernandez will pile up 200 innings and keep his ERA under 5 in the AL. He was 4.92 and gave up 34 HR in the NL while pitching in a great pitchers park in Arizona. He will be much closer to a Ponson/Ortiz than a Silva.
It seemed a forgone conclusion that BS would sign a veteran pitcher for the rotation to begin the year. You don’t know what Liriano’s situation will be and I guess it won’t hurt to have him around to start the season.
A rational look at stats indicates he’s a better signing than Ponson and even Ortiz. But then, I don’t expect much rationality around here. I also suspect that a year ago, if people had been given a choice of Silva or Hernanadez, many would have chosan Livan.
I would have been fine with going in to the season with the young guys, so I guess I’m not sure I really like this deal, but I don’t hate it either… and the price was right, compared with Silva’s obscene deal with Seattle.
Sane/Sweens - Exactly. When he gives up 12 runs over 3 innings each start, does he stay in and eat the rest of the game? I guess so… that’s why we pay him the big bucks!
sweems,
D-backs may be in a pitchers park, but the ball travels like your golf shot in the desert.
I totally understand if people don’t “love” this deal. But, i think it is hard to truly hate it. He will be servisable…. maybe his ERA will be 5.00, Silva was over 6 in 06…. He will most likely be about the 4th starter later in the season, which will help out the bully by keeping one of the young guys in there instead of starting.
MarkW
First off, Ponson couldn’t stay healthy. Secondly adding $5 million to Santana’s contract would have meant the Twins would have then been $25 million short instead of $30 million short. If the Twins didn’t sign Livan how do you see their rotation playing out? And how many innings does each pitcher pitch? Also you have to remember that they don’t play as many games in AAA so the pitchers don’t throw as many innings.
Didn’t you guys know, they use a lighter ball in AAA that is easier on the arm.
Hernandez will be released by the middle of May while the Twins spend a combined $2,000,000 on three first round picks. Look out Kansas City! We’re comin’! We’re comin’!
sane- couldn’t agree more. The young guys are still pitching all those innings in AAA. I would like to see them take some shots with the Twins. I don’t think it will do much more good for a guy like Slowey to spend more time in AAA. He can clearly dominate there. He needs to work things out in the majors now.
And Livan will not be better than Silva.
Jama,
How can you possibly make excuses for Sidney Ponson?
No Billy, they actually play less games in AAA. Just a quick math refresher - less games = less innings.
I would have liked the Twins to put all their young starting pitchers on a Minneapolis-to-Rochester shuttle.
1) Experiment and fail in Minneapolis.
2) Make corrections and eventually succeed at Rochester.
3)Return to Minneapolis as a starting pitcher who has learned how to pitch.
Jama, you dont need to spend $5M on a veteran pitcher if the only thing you want him to do is pitch 200 innings… There isn’t anyone else on the planet that we could hand a ball to and say “go out and throw as long as you can” for a lot less money?? It’s like all of sudden we’ve got an endless supply of cash to dole out… instead of “investing” in something worthwhile… hmmm?
What excuses did I make for Ponson?
I said the reason you don’t pay Ponson $5 million per to pitch 200+ innings is because he doesn’t pitch over 200 innings.
They play just as frequently at AAA.
The season just ends earlier.
Where is the rest?
Sane- Not everyone can do what I did…most of the young guys will turn out to be stiffs.
Mark
Do you think Livan could teach these young pitchers a thing or two? Don’t you think he knows a lot more about pitching than somebody like Kris Benson? Is $5 million a lot to pay a guy that isn’t going to have an ERA under 5? Probably, but that is the going rate. Are there any other players that are available right now that you would like the Twins to sign?
sane
It isn’t the frequency of pitching, it is the total number of innings pitched. See when you play less games you pitch less innings which is the plan for guys like Blackburn and Mulvey.
Johan,
I will settle for five out of eight succeeding.
And the young guys are just replacing an old guy who is becoming a stiff.
How is this $5 million contract or the $2.8 going to Monroe expensive? Have you guys seen MLB salaries? These guys are cheap. To say the Twins are wasting money on them is inaccurate. They aren’t spending anything on them.
Having 5 unproven young pitchers is a bad idea. Hernandez isn’t great but he adds some a bit of certainty that would not otherwise be there.
To anyone who thinks this is a bad signing,look at the rotation without him.There isn’t a pitcher on the Twins staff who has pitched in 34 big league games in one year,something Hernandez does EVERY year.And has anyone noticed the way Gardy tends to over use the Bullpen?Without a proven 200 inning guy the whole pen will be burned out buy July.Hell, Gardy managed to do that last year WITH Santana and Silva.
jama,
Then shut them down after the September call-ups expand the rosters and rotations.
Saw Hernandez pitch in person last year and he just got the everliving crap kicked out of him…
And he looked like he didn’t really care.
Now, he was pitching for a bad team, but I don’t think he has a lot left.
That said, I thought the guy the Twins received when they traded Ortiz, Macri, I think, was a pretty decent prospect. I suspect the Twins will use Hernandez for the first half of the season, maybe three-quarters, then trade him off for a prospect or two, in much the same way.
In the big scheme of things he’s a filler player in a rebuilding year. Not a horrible move. Not a player I’ll spend a lot of money to go watch, but a decent guy to make sure nobody’s arms get blown out before 2009-2010.
to the guy who stated before that guys in AAA are pitching every 5 days and how is that saving their arms: You’re dead wrong, they do not play pretty much everyday in the Minors like they do in the bigs, and the season is about 40-50 games shorter, therefore they are not exerted as much AND do not see as much action
Good signing! The kids will still get plenty of opportunities to develop their stuff, however, the bullpen still needs a day off to recover every fifth day. Hopefully, Livan will be able to eat those 200 or so innings. Personally, I’ll be surprised if Liriano throws more than 100 innings this year…
“Average Joe says:
February 12th, 2008 at 10:16 am
What a waste of $5 Mil. Not much better than Ponson or Ortiz and the results will be the same. Yuck.”
Average Joe = Clueless
What a Great sign today!! Just what we needed.
The TWINS will be 10+ games over .500 and will compete THIS YEAR!!
GO TWINS
Dean
Put the pipe down and step away from the drugs. You have officially smoked too much today.
Why hernandez and not Silva? Gee… maybe because Silva wanted multiple years in his deal for $6 mill per and more? Livan has a World Series ring that he helped lead the Marlins to on his resume. He has not been horrible the rest of his career and has always been pretty durable. The Mets wanted him, but since they got Santana, they don’t need him. At 33 years old, he is YOUNG. Even if he is a stop gap until next year, it gives those young pitchers in the minors another year to develop…
The difference between Ortiz/Ponson and Hernandez is last year the Twins had Santana and Silva as veterans in the rotation. With Boof and Baker looking like shoe-ins as well.
Instead, they went out and signed two “veterans” and blocked guys like Slowey and Garza from the rotation.
Now, there’s a rotation full of young guys. (Remember that Baker’s the default Ace if you go by experience).
And to people pointing at the Tigers young arms. The Tigers also went and got Kenny Rogers, who many credit as one of the reasons the young staff picked up as well as it did.
How, in the year 2008, is $5 million salary for an innings-eater a “waste”? Have you checked out player salaries lately Average Joe??????
If he pitches 200 plus innings this year, which he has done pretty much every single year, then this will end up being a good signing. Seems like a pretty low risk to me.
Did Ponson and Ortiz have 200 ip the year before we signed them BOTH COMBINED?? How is this compared to those two??? I dont mind it.I figured a SP and CF were our 2 biggest soft spots… Liriano has YET to take the mound for real…..no sure thing there. Humber/Perkins/Blackburn have how many innings pitched in the bigs?? NO sure thing either. Livan takes the ball every 5th day and gives you 200 ip a year ,something we desperately need with so many uncertaintys……..when was the last time Boof the Buffet Monster went 7 innings???? Boofs another reason we need some depth. By my count thats what ?? 5 of the Twins options who are by no means sure locks for the rotation. Some people are gonna hate anything we do now.
Now for another debate—–Are we really going into the year with Gomez/Span and Pirdie as our CF options???? Yikes…….How about signing Lofton to bridge us to 2009??? What ya think?
Good signing. Hopefully Anderson can help him cut down on his walks and the rotation needed a solid veteran. 11-12 wins would be good, plus he can pinch hit for Punto. With a payroll hovering around 50 million we had some money to spend. Less than a week before spring training and Lohse still hasn’t signed. I guess teams aren’t that desperate for pitching this year.
I Don’t smoke!!
Keep,
They do play every day in AAA, but the season ends one month ealier.
Mulvey threw 152 inning in AA last year.
Dave Gassner threw 149 innings at AAA.
Slowey threw 134 innings at AAA despite two stints, throwing 67 innings for the Twins.
When are the Twins going to stop signing end of the rotation, aging, mediocre free agent pitchers? You’d think they would have learned there lesson by now. They should just let the young pitchers get experience because they’ve already thrown in the towel for 2008 with that brilliant Santana trade.
If Hernandez puts up the same numbers he did last year he helps the Twins win in 2010 because it’s a pretty common standard that pitchers, especially young pitchers that come up together in the game fall apart when they are over used. Kerry Wood, Liriano, Prior, and that’s just some of the bigger named kids, but I’ve seen the Sports Illustrated, and USA TODAY guys both stating the same things… putting that kind of workload on kids who are not use to it will only hurt them, and the team in the future.
So I for one am a big fan of this move. If he has nothing left, 5 million is not going to sink the twins like 24 million and an injury might, or having 4-5 kids this year having to post 5-6.50 eras in order to hit 200 innings, and then be hurt or worse next year.
IMHO the innings argument doesn’t hold water. Innings pitched is under the control of Gardy and staff. There is no substitute for MLB innings. Though I believe Livan is “crafty” and can be successful in the Amer Lg for a while, I worry about the mental aspect. I think we should be sorting for and grooming pitchers who are outstanding. I believe at least 75% of pitching is mental. I know some believe that the attitude required to excel at pitching is innate, but I think it can be learned. I know Livan has much to offer kids learning to pitch in the show. Pacing, preparation, dedication and the proof that a good living can be made with a 87 mph fastball come to mind. But the downside is exposure to someone who has, by necessity, become comfortable with mediocre performance. I guess the Twins FO and on the field staff is aware of this. But they are after all in the entertainment business and stand to loose alot if the youngsters struggle and kill the bullpen. I hope I’m wrong, but I see a net negative hear.
If Hernandez fools the league for 1/2 the season we’ll be able to trade him to a contender. 200+ innings even in the horrible national league is still 200+ innings. He’ll bring a good prospect and along with a Nathan trade we’ll be looking good for the future. Our every day lineup will be extremely strong. Finally, what’s with the people bashing Mauer? Do you realize he keeps other teams from running, do you realize how hard it is to hit for power, do you realize he’s the best catcher out there? I’ll take Joe Mauer over the next 5 years over any other catcher. 84 wins this year and a solid playoff team to open the new park in the future.
Sane
I promise this is the last time I post this, but please read this article. You can’t pitch young players like you used to be able to. There is a max on how many innings they go before they break down.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/tom_verducci/02/05/verducci.YAE/index.html
I don’t have a problem with the signing. Basically, we’ve upgraded Silva.
Having said that, how do we expect the fans to come out during a “wasted season” especially on the heels of the Santana giveaway. After the pathetic free agent signings of the past few seasons, is it really shocking that Livan is compared to Ponson and Ortiz?
The fans who care enough to complain aren’t stupid or idiots, they’re just tired of the same old song and dance.
Me . . . I think I’ll just sit tight and hope for the best.
I think this was a nice little addition to the team. Livan is exactly what we needed a vetren pitcher who can eat up innings. We definatley needed a fall back plan incase Liriano isn’t to form and some of these younger guys aren’t ready. I really don’t think the Twins have had a bad offseason at all. The only bummer in my eye was loosing Hunter but quite frankly did you really want to lock him up for 6 years. 3-4 would have been fine but 6, I don’t know. The Santana deal had to happen, he was gone either way. Lamb is decent, Everrett is a 1 year band aid. Delmon young will be a stud. Gomez will be good. The only thing left really is to find a nice young middle infielder or atleast one we can lock up to a long term contract. Possible in a Nathan trade? Hopefully Casilla gets it together this year and can fill the leadoff spot.
When you could get better results and gain valuable experience with your younger pitchers in a year where it will be hard to compete for the division title.
That Money could have gone to signing bonuses for draft picks which they have many high ones (3 1st rndrs) this year from Torii. That way they don’t have to draft a Revere even though he has looked good. They can take guys with higher demands that slipped because of that.
Instead we get to watch a soft tossing Junk baller get shelled in a much improved offensively AL central.
FTR: Boof and fat-jokes don’t work anymore. Unless you go “Fatest by comparison”…and even then I think the team still has Reyes.
…That wasn’t directed at anybody in particular.
Gomez can’t hit. Unfortunately he’s another Danard Span.
If I am not mistaken this signing was a one year deal. It is not like we locked him up for 3-4 years. These young pitchers will get their chance. Some of them will probably start in the bullpen, and remeber if we trade Nathan at some point, someone is going to have to take over the closer roll and it will open up another spot in the bullpen for one of the youngsters. I can’t beleive poeple are this distraut over this signing.
I see the rotation and lineup shaking out this way now to start the year, what do you guys think?:
Starters:
-Scott Baker
-Livan Hernandez
-Boof Bonser
-Kevin Slowey
-Philip Humber/Nick Blackburn/Francisco Liriano
Lineup(not in order):
LF - Delmon Young
CF - Jason Pridie (better hitting numbers than Gomez gives him the nod)
RF - Michael Cuddyer
3B - Mike Lamb
SS - Adam Everett
2B - Brendan Harris
1B - Justin Morneau
C - Joe Mauer
DH - Jason Kubel (breakout year)
The lineup is much improved over last year I think, may turn out to be the best in a long time, say if on a scale from 1-100 last year it was a 50, this year its a 65-70, Young is a vast improvement in LF over Kubel/White last year, 3B didn’t produce crap last year and Lamb is better than crap, Bartlett and Everett are pretty much even I think, both had unspectacular averages but could steal bases, Harris is a pretty good improvement at 2B, Mauer is Mauer (hopefully of the .340 variety this year), Morneau is Morneau, Cuddyer is Cuddyer, and I think Kubel if he can stay healthy has somewhat of a breakout year.
That said, the rotation will be brutal this year, but the team should be fun to watch, even though they don’t have a chance in this division this year.
Correct me if I’m wrong but I believe Arizona’s park is a hitter’s park.
According The Bill James ‘08 Handbook:
From 2005-2007
Arizona has a 106 Index for AVG, 107 for hits, and 115 for HR. In fact, all of the categories are 105+.
Minnesota has a 97 Index for AVG, 96 for
hits, and a 85 for HR.
Maybe this will help LH numbers a bit.
He walks more batters than Silva. But, he throws over 200+ IP. He’s done that more consistently then Silva or Ortiz…LH is a bit more durable.
Ortiz came from a pithchers park before he came to the Twins… if your going to compare his numbers with LH.
I admit…I was one of those who was in favor of letting the kids pitch.But,I am not opposed to bringing in a veteran with the potential to eat alot of innings.I am OK with the signing.
jama,
I agree with not pitching anyone 200 innings per the article.
Five SP’s X 200 innings = 1000 innings.
Eight SP’s X 150 innings = 1200 innings.
Liriano, Baker, Bonser, Slowey, Perkins,Blackburn,Humber,Duensing=8SP’s
Just spread out the innings out and Livan-gone.
“The fans who care enough to complain aren’t stupid or idiots, they’re just tired of the same old song and dance.”
Do you mean winning the division 4 out of the past 6 years? Or do you mean fielding an entertaining team since 2001? Maybe it’s spending 1/3 of the Yankess payroll and finishing the year in the same boat?
No - the fans that care enough to complain just complain to complain. They would complained if the Twins signed Hunter and Santana and Silva and ARod this year. They would have complained if the Twins won the WS in 2007 because it took 6 games instead of 5.
Compare Span and Gomez?
Open a book!
I saw someone say they think the team is going to win 84 games this year.
I would like to know how they plan to win more games this year than they did last year? We only lost the best pitcher in baseball, our number 2 and 3 starters, plus our Gold Glove winning leader of the team in Hunter.
Now granted I know getting rid of Lew Ford has to count for about 5 wins, but that was if everything else was equal… we aren’t equal to last year, and the rest of the American League all got better (except the Orioles who got younger, and the Rangers who are in capable).
68 wins with 74 being the MAX that this team wins. I hope the other guy is right, but if I were a gambling man which I am not… 84 wins is way out of this team’s league.
Tori Who?
Gomez 2008
.295
60+ stolen bases
100+ runs scored
What’s all this Lariano talk - Dick Bremer says the Twins are expecting nothing from him this year.
It’s always great when you can sign someone who pitched 200+ MLB innings with a sub 5.00 ERA for less than they made the year before ($7MM dropped to $5MM). Props to BS! We NEEDED a veteran on this staff. Anyone who says otherwise is a moron.
Now let’s seem him pitch…
I am in the minority here, but not signing Hunter and trading Santana was for the best. There is NO way Hunter is going to last the length of his contract he wanted/signed with the Angels…especially if it was with the Twins on TURF. Secondly, Santana is a top flight pitcher, no doubt. Lots of innings, lots of wear and tear. Looking throughout the league it is a VERY rare commodity to have a good starting pitcher who can pitch and not be hurt. They may be willing to give him $20 million a year, but NOT for 6 or 7 years. In this day and age of baseball… 6 and 7 year contracts for ANYONE are killers… aka Kevin Brown, Mike Hampton, Carl Pavano, etc.
Bravo Twins…aka the Oakland A’s. Delmon Young can certainly play CF… don’t forget about him!
Dick Bremer is my choice of experts.
I think it is important to look at the Verducci article in SI (while admitting that I don’t have links to the stats of the “young core” that will be competing for the starting slots, to know what their +30 inning caps are).
The signing of Livan is a sound move. He doesn’t block the development of the best of the young pitchers - there will still be room for whomever rises to the top.
It also avoids the very real possibility that, in mid-May, our young pups are getting absolutely killed, and we have nowhere to turn (and how would this group sound off if that happened, with the “I told you so”).
Anyone who doesn’t like this move, tell me, if we are having those problems come April or May, one guy who is available today for reasonable money that you will claim we should have signed (or, alternatively, that we should throw all of the young arms to the wolves, which sounds like the position of a lot of you)? Maybe then we can see if Livan is having the best season of those “available” guys…
Many of the comments read eerily like the irrational hate fest for Silva which played out here last spring. Hanging out here has really put a hit on my estimation of Twins’ fans’ baseball savvy.
As with most everything American these days, I see way too much self-serving greed in play.
Rinkster… of course the Twins are expecting nothing from Liriano this year. Thats the thinking you go into the season with regarding a player who was out with major surgery the year before. Any production is icing on the cake… there can NEVER be expectations of someone coming back from a surgery like that…
its not easy keepin everyone happy - just ask George Bush….
Here I thought the Twins 2008 season was going to be a total waste. Now with the signing of Hernandez we might finish only 18 games under .500. Plus, he hits 30 points better than Punto so I assume Gardsy will work him in at Second when he is not pitching.
Way to go Billy Smith. All this for only $5 million!
Personally, I think the Twins will surprise people this year. They have more depth than at any other time in recent history, with the exception of their starting rotation. But given that so many people have talked about the team’s strong stable of young pitching for so long now, we’ll finally see how true it has all been.
It was clear the Twins were going to sign a veteran pitcher, so there isn’t much point in arguing that they should let all of the young guys pitch, because it wasn’t going to happen. As far as Livan goes, he certainly seems to have been the best remaining free agent pitcher, and for only 5 million(I wish I could say “only 5 million” about things in my personal life!), seems to be a pretty nice bargain. He has clearly had more success in his career than Fogg, Benson, or Silva. Obviously, he is now in Minnesota to eat innings, and anything else he can give the team would be a bonus. Certainly he has the ability to have a good season.
At least it sounds like most Twins fans are reserved to the team sort of treading water this year. At least it’s not like last year, where the Twins obviously counted on all of those players who had career years in 2006 to repeat in 2007. Guys like Punto, Cuddyer, Mauer, Morneau were monsters in 06, and the Twins did little to add to it for 07. Everyone of those guys slipped. Unfortunately, the only one who did have a year as good, if not better, was Hunter, and he is now gone. For most of the team, there would seem to be nowhere to go, but up.
Sane.
I disagree with you. I think Hernandez is a very solid pick for this team this year for what it needs.
but I do agree with you. If Dick Bremer is the expert… the person using the word expert may not know the meaning of the word.
“Do you mean winning the division 4 out of the past 6 years? Or do you mean fielding an entertaining team since 2001? Maybe it’s spending 1/3 of the Yankess payroll and finishing the year in the same boat?
No - the fans that care enough to complain just complain to complain. They would complained if the Twins signed Hunter and Santana and Silva and ARod this year. They would have complained if the Twins won the WS in 2007 because it took 6 games instead of 5.”
Wow, I guess you’re right. Anybody who doesn’t buy the company line is a complete idiot. Why would any thinking fan complain about losing the best pitcher in baseball and enduring the march of the zombie free agents every off season?
Perhaps you are satisfied with winning a division title, being an entertaining team and having a lower payroll than the Yankees.
I suspect most of us would rather be playing in October.
Dean,
Gomez hasn’t even hit .280 in the minors, what makes you think hill approach .295 in the bigs if he makes it?
Thunder25
I love your optimism, and I hope you are correct.
But to expect more than one of these young pitchers to have a great year, and another one of the young ones to be more than a solid starter is asking an aweful lot. And none of them have proved that they are capable of that for full season.
Technically, Slowey has the best track record of any of the pitchers, but he’s not much more than a 4-5 starter until he gains more experience and better major league command of his pitches. He doesn’t walk people, but he misses in the strike zone a lot… kind of like Radke when Radke wasn’t at his best.
Great signing. The Twins needed at least one veteran on the staff. The comments seem right, the Twins got a Carlos Silva replacement for only $5m. That’s how the Twins continue to compete, by making smart moves. Hernandez is not a Ponson or Ortiz. Now if they only signed a DH and Nathan, this team would have a chance.
Be careful Boomer…
I brought up that point, and I have 5 people that I know of who now absolutely hate me on here…
I agree with you, but good luck to you on trying to make it out of here alive if the savages come back.
“As with most everything American these days, I see way too much self-serving greed in play.”
Greed?!? when talking about ANYTHING to do with the twins? ludicrous. The twins and its fans are FAR from greedy. People might EXPECT too much when there isn’t reason too, but it aint greed.
Here’s the deal with keeping guys at AAA. AAA plays 144 games in a year (but they do play pretty much every day like MLB teams). So it is a few less games than 162. But if they want to limit innings pitched, at that level it’s not a big deal for them to give a pitcher an extra day’s rest or even skip his turn in the rotation once in a while. But it’s harder to justify doing that at the major league level where you have just a 10/11 man pitching staff and given the stakes. That (along with teaching kids how to pitch, develop other pitches, etc.) is why you keep pitchers at AAA.
So while Hernandez isn’t a world beater, I do think it’s valid to say that he is Silva at half the price and will eat up innings and protect some young arms.
And if any of you have not read the excellent SI article (see the links posted above a couple times)about abusing young arms, you dare not say another word about expecting 30+ starts out of any young arms.
Capcom
Bonds for 7 million
Nathan for 12 million
And this team still doesn’t win 81 games this year.
The hitters need at bats, the pitchers needed Livan for protection and insurance, and the club needs to trade Nathan at the allstar break
Jeesh….another pitcher who has stats similar to Kyle Lohse…actually I think I would rather have Lohse back. Is Terry Ryan still in the building?
these naysayers would piss and moan if we won the world series - there is no cure…you just have to tolerate stupidity or learn to ignore it …. just ask craig…..
I see a lot of people excited about the 200+ innings per year. Let’s just hope they are quality innings. Otherwise the Twins would have been better off hiring one of us at 1/500th the price.
BC,
IMO the signing is NOT a serious mistake.
I only want the young SP’s to get maximum development innings in MLB in addition to the innings they require at AAA.
I feel whatever innings the Twins give Livan, will just slow the process for the kids.
However, it is probably not worth the excitement seen here.
It reminds me of the the suicidal bloggers we saw after the Zach Day signing.
jama, BC, and all the other naysayers….keep trashing the season and saying how bad the Twinks will be this year. It’s okay. The Twins actually play better as the underdog instead of the favorite. The more people trash them, the better the Twins record will be. Wait and see….
The Twins have made it to October 4 of the last 6 seasons… 
Unfortunately the most recent campaign (the 06 model) lost all sense of what it had done to get to that point.
And quite honestly, being the fan I am…I got caught up in the momentum and felt (just as the Rockies did as they were getting hot in 07) that nothing was going to stop the 06 Twins.
Signing Livan Hernandez in this situation makes more sense than it would have during the 06-07 offseason. Last year the team’s issue wasn’t the pitching, it was the hitting. Ponson and Ortiz didn’t actually solve anything.
This season, the team’s issue is going to be it’s youth and inexperience. A veteran such as Hernandez coming in now instead of last year actually has a purpose, as if one of the 5 “rookies” that this rotation will have in it could easily start to show premature tiring in their first full season. Hernandez is going to come in and serve as that veteran arm to support the rotation, not be the rotation as Ponson and Ortiz were coming into 07.
Monroe? Forget that, the Twins can cut ties with him during Spring Training and loose out on a bag of balls and some pinetar.
The same people moaning over Hernandez were a few weaks ago mourning the loss of Silva.
Hernandez is Silva. The difference is that they’re not paying him a riddiculous some of money ($12M for Carlos?…are you serious?), and they know exactly what they want from him.
They’re not trying to catch lightning in a bottle here. They’re trying to make sure they don’t blow out the arms of the guys they plan on having pitch on this team for more than a year.
it’s interesting that last week rick anderson said none of the FA’s were better than what he had. So a few days latter they sign livan the “innings eater” hernandez. BS must not trust Anderson’s opinion much. As best as i can figure an “innings eater” is a pitcher that will be .500 or under with an era around 5+, give up more hits than innings pitched, basically a mediocre pitcher at best.
dissapointing that when we have money to spend the market is this weak.
anybody believe in miracles?
WOW… I am trying to figure out who is more delusional - Capcom or Thunder.
Capcom thinks we only need a DH and Thunder thinks the Twins have tons of depth.
I bet you guys also think that Brittney Spears is simply misunderstood.
In all reality the 2008 season was going to be nothing more than a try out for the young pitchers, so signing a veteran pitcher who has done nothing more than average 6.7 innings pitched per start for his entire major league career is a great move. Anyone who thinks the Twins were going to win the division or make the playoffs this year has some issues, could it happen sure and I could win Powerball on Wensday too…. but not likley. With Silva and Santana last year Gardy had the Bullpen used up by July so now 1/2 of you say we should just use the kids, if the Twins did that we would have no bullpen after May. I like the signing and I think the Twins will Move Nathan in July and get the 3b of the future and by the end of this season they will have the answers for the rotation and things will be looking good for 09-10.
I would like to see the Twins bring in a CF for 1 year so Pirdie (sp) and Gomez
are not rushed but I could live with 1 of them learning in the Majors if they have a good spring.
Hawk, I really don’t think it works that way. Talent wins ball games. People trashing the current rostered talent means nothing to the W-L record. I predict the Twins will finish no better than 4th in their division. Where do you think they will finish?
Someone make a trip to Wisconsin to pick up some cheese to go with all this Minnesota Whine.
Now if we could only bring back Jason Tyner.
If we end up with Kubel in left, Cuddyer in CF and Young in RF, we will need Tyner as a late inning replacement.
Gomez hit almost .300 his last month before he was hurt.
Mark your calendars…March 31st in coming and you can watch the “March to the Playoffs” start on WFTC at 6pm. Torii Hunter has no chance as the Angels will be the first team the Twins steamroll over. Hernandez will be the opening day winner…Viva Livan!
T - “They’re not trying to catch lightning in a bottle here. They’re trying to make sure they don’t blow out the arms of the guys they plan on having pitch on this team for more than a year.”
-Right On, They are scared because of what happened to Liriano, they do not wan that to happen again, and any fan shouldn’t either, because what good is giving those young guys MLB experience now if something might happen and they’re not around in 2010 for the new stadium?
He gave up 34 HRs in 204 IP last year, 2nd most in the NL.
Keep,
Liriano wasn’t injured because of “too many innings”.
I agree, keep them in bubble until 2010.
Don’t pitch anyone in 2008 that we think can help us in 2010.
wouldnt we be shocked if out of spring training it comes…
scott baker, livan hernandez, boof bonser, zach day, randy keisler
point being, we dont have one damn bit of an idea….spring training could bring alot of surprises…whoever performs will be given the job…wont if be fun
I don’t even know why I read these. MN fans are the most pessimistic of all. Never happy about anything and always refer to the self-proclaimed experts for their opinion on everything. Don’t be afraid of positive thinking and an optimistic outlook on things. Thats why I moved!! I personally have a lot of faith in our scouts and am looking forward to watching these young guys develop in to super stars just like I did when Torii and Johan were young, upcoming stars. I am glad the Twins don’t give in and pay these guys all that money. It makes me an even bigger fan. Develop young players, rely on scouting, and continue with a winning tradition without paying these babies millions. And Hernandez is only going to help the young pitching staff get better, regardless of what his numbers say…GO TWINS.
I would like to hear folks predictions for the upcoming season. Seems people can’t stand reality, or at least negative posts, yet I don’t see anyone claiming we are well positioned to make the playoffs.
Just spread the innings around eight young SP’s and no one has to pitch over 140 innings.
And eight young SP’s either develop or expose their limitations.
Its all good.
i keep coming back to the following: we’ve spent nearly as much money this offseason as johan was asking for. nothing against morneau, cuddy, or hernandez, but if pohlad is gonna spend the money……..i would have spent it differently.
did any one feel bad about “can’t feed my kids on 3yr for 21m” sprewell story today?
Crikket,
I am no where near Wisconisin, will NY cheese do?
twinsfan34…im not sure i even go so far as to call them fans….theyre just people who love to live in the ugly….never happy about anything….oh well, its their life…
Innings eater = overused, tired cliche’
If I hear one more post about eating innings I’m gonna eat some drano. 4.90 NL ERA = 5.50 AL ERA. Eat those innings.
TWINSFAN34
DITTO
Go TWINS
Dean…Perhaps you should start smoking!
2007…..
Baker = 186 innings+30=216
Bonser= 173 innings+30=203
Slowey= 200 innings+30=230
Blackburn=160+AFL innings+30=190+
Humber =146 innings+30=176
Duensing =167 innings+30=197
Liriano(2005)=190innings
(2006)=121innings
2008?=150innings??
Perkins(2005)=134innings
(2006)=126innings
(2007)= 48innings
2008?=120innings??
First three should be fine with IP but the last two are real question marks on how many they can pitch this year.
O7 stats
G 33 IP 219 H 183 R 88 HR 33 BB 52 SO 235 W15 L13 salary 21 million a year
G 33 IP 204 H 247 R 116 HR 34 BB 79 SO 90 W11 L11 salary 5 million a year.
No I’m not saying Hernandez is any where close to the pitcher Santana is but if you look at last season he’s a bargin for simaler stats other than SO and Runs. Good Signing.
jama says:
February 12th, 2008 at 11:56 am
UN
I don’t care if Livan’s ERA is 8 as long as he can go over 200 innings.
Proof that the baseball IQ on most of these commentators are roughly equivelent to the number of KOs Livan had last year.
beanbrain,
what came to my mind was “what team will sprewell try to sign with”
Dean, in Gomez’s (actually the mets) last 10 games of the year he went:
0-0
0-0
0-1
0-0
0-0
0-5
1-3
0-1
1-3
0-1
for a grand total of 2-14, that tells me he wasn’t doing well at all and wasn’t playing because of it, your info is wrong.
Get real, mj1. Newbies Day and Keisler could have 0.00 ERA’s in ST and the Twins would still ship ‘em to the minors for the start of the season.
The 4th and 5th spots you gave them will be filled by Slowey, Perkins and Liriano. And the Liriano situation could easily make the Twins go with 12 pitchers.
average joe,
its in aisle 7, next to the dish soap.
I neither love nor hate the signing. It’s hard to view it as a mistake when it’s only a one year contract. The club’s collective eye is still obviously on 2010. On the other hand, Livan was barely serviceable in the NL, and the AL is tougher place to pitch. He also pitched in a pitchers’ park last year. So, don’t go counting those innings before he actually gets the outs. I see his biggest asset as a potential teacher to a young staff. Livan know how to pitch, the stuff just isn’t what it used to be. The knock on Livan has been he’s not always dialed in; that’s why he had a tendency to show up in big games earlier in his career (see 1997) and disappear in others. I say let’s give Livan a chance to be a good example to the young guys.
I too think this was an excellent signing. Some here always want to compare a new acquisition with a past failure….go figure. Ideally, we would underestimate the results of our acquistions, and overestimate the results of the departures. Livan has had pretty steady results over the years. I think a step up from Silva at a lot less money. Without Santana and Anderson around to mentor him, Silva won’t look so good. I would have preferred Blanton, based on potential…but Livan is a good value without having to give up prospects.
Sane,
I agree. Spread the innings around. Find out what we got. We may “catch lightning in a bottle”
Sane,
You don’t honestly think Liriano got hurt because they were asking too much of him? The torque put on the arm by his delivery and the innings he threw go hand in hand, too many pitches, too much torque = Injury.
What is your reasoning behind his injury? I’d imagine its something along those lines, and if so your argument holds no merit
2005 - 6.2 innings per start at AA, AAA, MLB
2007 - 7.6 innings per start
(those stats include innings he pitched in non start games, so the difference is actually something like 6.4 I/9 in 2005, and 8.0 I/9 in ‘07, thats a pretty good jump in usage on the arm)
Curt, I think the Twins will win 70 to 75 games this year.
Well said Boneyard, he now is the leader of a young pitching staff and I am sure there were lots of questions pertaining to his leadership capabilities prior to the signing. Numbers aside, he will only help us.
Is anyone else as excited as i am to watch Gomez run? I hear he is blazing fast but havent had a chance to see him. I’ll be flying in to Ft Myers next month for my annual spring training trip and am looking forward to seeing him, along with some of these young pitchers. GO TWINS
I agree with Boneyard….a small signing, but not a bad signing. Just a little too expensive. But like Joe C said, there was very little on the shelf this year.
Remember, Ortiz had a good April, but not the stuff to go on. So, the question is:
Can Livan live-on…..past April?
innings per start is what I meant by the way instead of I/9
Average Joe
Why did Livan have KO’s? Is he boxing now? Aren’t KO’s, knock out? Is baseball strikeouts are known as K’s.
I was obviously joking that an ERA of 8 would be okay. My point is that the innnings are more important than the end results. I think the Twins are heading into a great position in the future, but throwing these young guys too much will hurt their future.
I guess I had some hope coming into the season. But the signing of Livan indicates to me that the Twins just punted. A 5.50 ERA at the back end of the rotation is servicable for a team with no expectations (see Twins, circa 1970’s or Royals, circa 2000’s). I’ll still root, root for the home team, but my expectations for the upcoming season have taken a big hit. I realize there were no viable FA’s out there, so if they were going to sign one Livan was about the best they could do. But it’s just so freakin’ disappointing that it’s come to this.
And 70-75 wins will put us where? Around 4th place. Hardly anything to get excited about. Unless you are purely a baseball fan and not a Twins fan. I would be happy if they could win more games than they lose, but I don’t think they have the roster this year to do that. Not being negative, just realistic.
If eight SP’s throw 140 innings each, that is 1120 innings.
I those SP’s can average 7 innings per start (wow!!), they will throw 1134 innings.
That formula makes Livan’s innings unnecessary, but IMO the signing is still just a MINOR mistake.
Jama, you say tomato, I’ll say tomahto.
Sane
Without injuries how do you expect to have 8 starting pitchers used equally? I’m confused, do you want an 8 man rotation? Do you want to have 2 starters each go 4 innings in the same game? How exactly do you make your idea work?
Curt….
Twins Records:
2001…85-77
2002…94-67
2003…90-72
2004…92-70
2005…83-79
2006…96-66
2007…79-83
2008…84-78
Overall, they are at least 5 games better than last year’s team. No doobies needed.
The difference between this, and the ponson and ortiz signings is incredibly obvious…
The Twins do not have a single veteran pitcher this year… (26 with less than 2 full seasons of work is the oldest after Livan if i’m not mistaken)
Last year, the Twins had 2 other veteran pitchers, which was why ponson and ortiz were mistakes.
You can’t expect these young kids to all be able to throw 200 innings, and go deep into ballgames consistantly… It’s a terrible strategy… and in a year where we’re a non-contender… it’s downright criminal to use our kids too much
Let’s not forget there are still 4 other spots for the young kids to develop in… do you really think that 5th spot is gonna be that necessary?
keep,
IMO Liriano’s injury was all about
over-dependence on his slider and very little about excessive innings.
Average Joe
Do you really think this signing is going to alter the final win count for the Twins that much? What is the win difference between using Livan and one of the young, unproven, rookie pitchers. I don’t know how this signing can signal anything that wasn’t there before. This team wasn’t going to compete this year. I for one am okay with that as long as there is a long term plan on how to reload in another year or two.
also, to make this clear… I am a different curt than the one who has previously been commenting
Hawk
Can you please explain to me how this team is 5 wins better than last year? Their lineup may be better but it won’t make up for the lack of Starting Pitching will it?
Don’t recall saying tons of depth, but more than they have had in a long while. At least the depth is solid major league talent, rather than the sad bunch they’ve had hanging around, like Lew Ford, Luis Rodriguez, etc. They’ve actually got legitimate major leaguers playing every position this season. The one exception is Gomez in centerfield, since he hasn’t proven anything yet, but Craig Monroe is a proven outfielder with some pop(notice I didn’t say great or even good outfielder), and Kubel is so-so.
Point is, they are far more well-rounded in the field and at the plate than they have been
84 wins this year???? I differ in my opinion…Hunterless, Santanaless, Castilloless, I see fewer wins in 2008.
AvJoe, this is a developmental year…..at starting pitching and CF. So stop-gap measures at 2B, 3B, SS, and now for the “5th” starter.
The writing’s been on the wall all along this offseason because of the Hunter and Santana losses.
It’s too much to try and replace these guys in one season, and unrealistic to think it could happen and that the Twins would be competitive.
All because of the timing of the Santana loss. It was too late to go after Bedard.
I believe the people I put in charge to run this team will make all the right decisions and we will win the American League Central Division this year.
sane, I don’t know what makes you think the young guys would consistently throw 7 innings. I highly doubt it. They’ll be on pitch counts and the only way they go 7 innings is if they are very good (and efficient) innings.
Hernandez can be left in to throw 100+ innings in a game regularly, win or lose. That has the benefit of providing some level of certainty that the bullpen will get a little rest occasionally. Santana (and to a lesser degree, Silva) provided that near-certain day of rest for the pen last season. When you have nothing but kids in the rotation that you’re cautious about overworking, there’s a real danger in overloading the bullpen arms.
It sure seems like no matter what the FO does there is a large number of fans who think it’s wrong. This was a solid move.
sane,
I’ll qoute myself in response:
“The torque put on the arm by his delivery and the innings he threw go hand in hand, too many pitches, too much torque = Injury.”
I see the point about his slider, BUT that plays right in to what I’m trying to say, and what I HAVE ALREADY said for that matter
dammit… I mean Hernandez can be left in to throw 100+ PITCHES, win or lose.
jama,
Five SP’s in MLB and three at AAA at any given time. When any MLB’s tire or fail, they go to AAA and lower pitch counts and correct their problems. They are replaced in MLB by AAA SP’s.
Over the course of a normal year, most teams use 6-10 SP’s at MLB level.
Not that original an idea.
Five-man rotation only at both levels.
You people really think you know something about baseball don’t you? I am the owner of this club. My little finger knows more about running a successful baseball team that all of you combined. Now let me rest in peace.
Jama, et. al,
Okay, you sold me. Not a bad signing.
If this is a developmental year, save the $5 million and spend it next year. I thought that was the entire reason they cut payroll by $22 million this year.
2008
Cuddy .290
25 HR
110 RBI
Kubel .285
24 HR
100 RBI
Young .310
28 HR
45 2B
40 BB
crikket,
I DON’T think they will average 7 innings per start. That would be amazing.
My point was, that if they did, they would still accumulate only 140 innings each.
That would quiet those that think we need Livan’s innings to save their arms.
Old Goat, all the decisions have been made. Now it’s time for the performance.
And lots of big “if’s”. If M&M soar, and Liriano too, and Cuddy and Kubel, and the young starters pitch more or less like vets……..then there’s a chance for a run at the WC.
The big burden is on the coachs. Andy will be awfully busy. And Varva has to come through. And Gardy can’t be slumping. (Of course he was goin’ nuts with the choices of Ponson, Ortiz, Punto, and Tyner (at DH) given him last year. He should be a lot more relaxed this year.)
That’s a very optimistic outlook Dean. And Delmon will have 125 K’s as well.
Joe Mauer will never develop in to a power hitter, look at his swing. He’ll be lucky to have a 15 HR season in his career.
sane
The problem with that is that when do you send a guy down? Don’t you think it would be better to have a guy throw regularly than to mix and match when he pitches? It is okay to try to bring up one guy and send him down when you don’t need him but to do that with 3 guys is a little too much to ask in my opinion. What does a guy like Boof get out of going down to AAA? Is Baker going to go back down? How about Slowey? These guys are the ones that are going to stay up which means you really only have 1 starting pitching spot open right now. How do you alternate 4 guys into one spot?
keep,
Liriano can throw more pitches and fewer sliders, and not get injured.
Averagre Joe
Nice of you to join us!
Curt, a Hernandez is needed to cushion the development of the young staff, as has already been blogged.
And if you’re a different Curt, use a different name. Maybe Developmental Curt (just kidding!).
Lamb .295
20 HR
75 RBI
Punto .289
25 SB
Morneau .300
39 HR
145 RBI
I should have said “Get real” to Joe C at 1:48 if he thinks Day and Keisler will get starting positions from the Twins.
Anyone criticizing this move is probably a casual fan or just flat out doesn’t understand the game of baseball. 200 IP is huge nowadays even if a very medicore or below average 200 IP. I think the casual fans are missing that he can get into the sixth and seventh inning on very low pitch counts. Sure the young guys can get into those innings too, but that might already be on 120 pitches.
Mauer .335
45 2B
20 HR
Baker 13-7
3.90 ERA
Slowey 10-8
4.20 ERA
jama,
That would cause the high number of innings for Boof, Baker and Slowey that fans say the Livan signing prevents.
If they can throw 180-200, go ahead and do it. I am only trying to cut their innings like all the proponents of the signing say is necessary.
Sane,
I know that, you’re missing my point. He was doing that good because of the way he was pitching, with that reliance on the slider, but thats not how he was going or how Gardy wanted him to throw(less reliance on the slider), its a double edged sword that relates to eachother that ultimately ended up in his injury. If he has to throw that pitch to be successful and lights out, you have to limit him, they didn’t do that and the end result was a serious injury. I said before that Liriano is going to have to find a new pitch or change his mechanics to come back successfully, he’s got (or had, we don’t know now) a plus fastball and a plus changeup but you can’t be successful in the bigs with only those 2 pitches, he needs that unworldly slider or another pitch, but it comes with risks… and with that I’m out, work is done
Great sign for 1 year. Hernandez will give them innings and allow the youth to grow, but he may give even more. Since 2000, Hernandez has changed clubs 3 times and all 3 times his ERA the first year with the new club was under 4.00(3.20 w/Montreal 2003; 3.98 w/ Washington 2005; 3.76 10 games w/Arizona 2006). As long as they don’t expect much the second year, he may be just what they needed.
I can’t believe I just read this for the last half hour. Every other post was the same as the one before. Half love, half hate, and a half an hour of my life wasted. I am such an idiot.
I seems the detractors of the signing are also assuming you can just automatically send Boof, Slowey, Baker and co. out for 200 IP, no problem, even if they give up a lot of runs like Livan would. The difference with Livan is that he can get into the deep innings of a game on a low pitch count, whereareas Boof, Baker, and Slowey may have already thrown 120 pitches by the sixth. That’s a good way to blow out a bullpen.
Hernandez as a “cushion” for $5 million. I still would rather spend the money next year. We have plenty of young arms to fill the rotation. Rick Anderson can develop these guys.
jama….
Santana vs. ??? -3
Silva vs. Hernandez Even
Hunter vs. Young Even
(yes even…Young will not miss all the games Hunter will miss because of injury)
Castillo vs. Casilla/Harris -1
Old Baker vs. New Baker +1
Tyner/Cirillo vs. Monroe +1
Punto vs. Lamb +1
Bartlett vs. Everett Even
Perkins uninjured +1
Crain uninjured +1
Bench w/o Ford&Rodriguez +1
A year experience for Slowey+1
Liriano’s return +2
The negatives are big and glaring but few… The positives are small and harder to see but many. All depends on what you are looking for.
a question off topic does anyone know when delmon young can be a free agent
keep,
We agree!
If he NEEDS the slider to be succesful, he will either fail or he will always be a high injury risk.
So are the detractors just assuming you can send Baker, Boff, Slowey and co. out for 200 IP, no problems. Haven’t you forgotten something called the pitch count? Most young gusy can pitch well enough, but they may have already thrown 120 pitches by the sixth. However,someone like Livan can get into the deep innings of a game on a very low count on a consistent basis.
If you really need 200 mediocre innings…do you need to spend $5 million. That is $5 million less to spend next year when we hopefully will be in contention for a playoff spot. Sidney Ponson and Ramone Ortiz might have been cheaper.
crup,
Good conclusion.
I REALLY like this signing. I’ve been wanting the Twins to do this since Livan was on the free agent market. The ‘Silva at half the price’ quote is correct. I’d like to add that Livan won’t be asking the Rick Anderson or Ron Gardenhire to remove him just 5 1/3 innings either. Livan is as rubberarmed as we could ask for and I predict he’ll win a dozen to 15 games for us. A very solid signing…..now if only we could get Kenny Lofton to play CF for us - and at mid-season we could always trade him to a contender for prospects…..I’d like to see both Gomez & Pridie getting everyday starts in CF at AAA and AA and get some more AB’s and see more game situational circumstances playing before becoming an everyday player at the MLB level. And for the record I believe the Twins are NOT a sub-par 50 - 60 win team going forth. I look for them to finish just a half dozen games south of the .500 mark at worst.
Whoa Dean. 20 HR’s for our Baby? His swing is way too long.
And 4.2 ERA for the Slowster? Not after he stays in the rotation for a few months against the Yanks, Sawx, Tigers and Indians, and Angels.
Gomez hitting stats for June just before he was hurt.
DATE GAME AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS HBP OBP SLG AVG
JUN 01 ARI 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 .212 .233 .167
JUN 02 ARI 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 0 .235 .258 .194
JUN 03 ARI 4 0 2 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 0 0 .263 .286 .229
JUN 05 PHI 5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 .233 .250 .200
JUN 06 PHI 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .233 .250 .200
JUN 07 PHI 4 0 2 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 1 0 0 .255 .273 .227
JUN 08 @DET 4 1 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 .255 .271 .229
JUN 09 @DET 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .245 .260 .220
JUN 10 @DET 5 1 1 0 0 1 3 4 0 2 0 0 0 .241 .309 .218
JUN 11 @LAD 3 0 1 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 .246 .310 .224
JUN 12 @LAD 3 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 .250 .311 .230
JUN 15 @NYY 3 1 2 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 1 1 0 .269 .328 .250
JUN 16 @NYY 5 0 3 0 0 0 1 3 0 1 1 0 0 .292 .348 .275
JUN 17 @NYY 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 2 0 0 0 .293 .338 .268
JUN 18 MIN 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 .289 .338 .268
JUN 19 MIN 3 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 .291 .338 .270
JUN 20 MIN 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 .284 .329 .263
JUN 22 OAK 3 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 .282 .316 .253
JUN 24 OAK 4 1 3 1 0 0 0 4 0 0 1 0 0 .303 .349 .277
JUN 25 STL 3 1 1 0 0 1 1 4 0 1 0 0 0 .304 .384 .279
JUN 26 STL 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 2 0 0 0 .305 .375 .273
JUN 27 STL 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 .309 .371 .270
JUN 29 @PHI 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .309 .371 .270
JUN 29 @PHI 4 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 1 1 0 .314 .366 .269
JUN 30 @PHI 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 .311 .354 .260
June Total:
67 7 20 1 0 2 7 27 5 15 7 2 1 .351 .403 .299
Curt I think you’re kind of showing how you don’t understand the game of baseball. You seem to be assuming you can just send any old pitcher out to eat innings. Well how can they do that if they’ve already killed their arm by the fifth inning? That’s what will happen with the young guys. Already 120 pitches by the fifht or sixth. difference is that someone like Livan can get deep into games on a low pitch count.
Liriano wasn’t injured because of “too many innings”.
You’re right, his mechanics also played a part in it.
However now that he’s coming back from surgery, they want to make sure that he’s ready before pitching him 200 innings in a season.
Unless you want Gardy to do to Liriano what Dusty Baker did to Prior and Wood.
Joe, you should repost some of these threads sometime this summer. It would be fun to compare some of the predictions that get posted whenever the Twins make (or don’t make) a move. Hernandez is a good signing, by the way.
What you could have done:
…put the money into drafting real players, rather than low balling cheap players every year. Last year, for example, Porcello got picked 1 spot before them, but even if Detroit hadn’t taken him, there was zero chance the Twins would have, because he wanted $10M. Now he’s the Goldstein’s #11 prospect overall, and the Twins spent the money on junk.
Bottom line, the Twins simply do not understand the simple concept that average players can be found cheaply, and that doing so allows you to retain stars.
“Eating innings” is the pitcher’s equivalent of “scrappy.” It’s just used to excuse otherwise crappy play.
T, someone blogged a link to a video analysis of Liriano’s delivery. Bottom line was that it was excellent in its mechanics. Very impressive. The analyst was mystified as to why he injured himself.
Liriano just throws hard….maybe too hard. It’ll be an interesting ST for him, and for Andy.
And I was just going to say “Right, Darrell” about Gomez and CF and say we don’t have a stop-gap there yet. Then Dean reminds us that Gomez looked, and performed, ready to go last June.
It’ll be in interesting ST for Gomez too.
And Gomez has a veteran presence behind him (Monroe), and so does Liriano (Hernandez).
Looks like Mr. Smith has some vision….
You know, if this were a matter of Hernandez keeping one of these guys from a rotation spot all year, some of these arguments might hold water. But the Twins, like pretty much every other MLB team, will end up using at least 8-10 SPs during the season. Like I’ve said, I don’t particularly love Hernandez, but I don’t hate this deal. It isn’t going to hurt if one of those 10 SPs is a guy who’s thrown 190+ innings for 10 years in a row. The others will all get their shots during the year.
Keep / Sane,
Liriano’s injury was from arm whip. Not the slider. Improperly throwing the slider can exacerbate the whip. Nolan Ryan had a great curve to go with his fastball. He once explained the difference between the two was simply the position of the wrist. Fastball thrown with the palm forward and curve thrown with the heel of the palm forward. Both thrown with the same arm motion.
It would have been nice to have received a decent starter in the Santana trade, but since that didn’t happen, I guess this will have to due. Silva’s signing made the market pretty bare for starting pitching - silva didn’t deserve the money he’s getting - baseball has to finally get a handle on its runaway salary issues - but that’s a whole other issue all together.
Most everyone here is completely over analysing this move. He is a average pitcher, signed to a below average contract, what’s wrong with that? The Twins oviously felt he can help them. Good low-risk move, should help them compete in a tough division and league.
To the experts out there; Did Detroit or Seattle improve themselves more this winter?
Wow, did I just hear someone say the Twins will finish no worse that 6 games below .500 this year. Break out the homer hanky’s!!!!
And I still say spending $5 million for this guy was over paying him by….$5 million. And…why not have a starting rotation of 5 young guns. I still do not see how spending $5 million means we still will not wear out the bullpen. We have plenty of middle relievers to pick up the slack…but alas…$5million gone.
JA, have you looked at Detroit’s lineup? if they outscore everyone in the AL, I don’t think that would be a crazy thought… Would you rather have Cabrera at 3B or Mike Lamb?
I still want to hear someone predict a division title this year without laughing. 2008, as was pointed out, is a developmental year/rebuilding year/waste of a year. Save money for 2009 and make a big push. If anyone thinks signing Hernandez means we now have just completed the final piece of the puzzle to winning the central……..Let’s face it, moves like these did not work in the past…Ponson, Ortiz comes to mind. All long gone before the season ended.
Hawk
When looking at the big picture do you really think this team will win more games than last year? I follow your + - thing even though I don’t agree with some of it. You are leaving out Garza being gone. Liriano may not even start a game until June. Plus you can’t compare Young and what Torii is going to do this year you have to compare Young to what Torii did last year.
Anyone have any thoughts on who’s going to get chopped from the 40-man?
Livan Hernandez,
will help spell our young pitchers.
For less than Silva.
…Wait, this isn’t Howard’s blog! I’m letting Haiku Day go to my head.
Slowey can do the job. Sept. stats.
DATE GAME W L ERA G GS CG SHO SV SVO IP H R ER HR BB SO NP-S GO-AO
SEP 04 CLE 0 0 5.36 1 1 0 0 0 0 5.0 5 2 1 1 0 3 89-58 3-9
SEP 08 @CWS 0 0 5.24 1 0 0 0 0 0 2.2 3 1 1 0 0 2 44-27 2-4
SEP 12 @KC 0 0 5.44 1 0 0 0 0 0 3.1 6 3 3 2 2 4 65-41 2-4
SEP 17 TEX 0 0 5.00 1 1 0 0 0 0 6.0 4 1 1 0 0 7 105-74 2-9
SEP 23 CWS 1 0 4.57 1 1 0 0 0 0 7.0 4 1 1 0 0 9 99-75 4-8
SEP 28 @BOS 0 1 4.73 1 1 0 0 0 0 5.2 7 4 4 0 0 3 104-68 7-7
Sept/Oct Total:
1 1 3.34 6 4 0 0 0 0 29.2 29 12 11 3 2 28 506-343 20-41
I’m not so sure Curt doesn’t have a point about the money thing, at least if you look at the club’s FA signing collectively. Lamb, Monroe, Everett, and Hernandez were signed for a collective (round numbers) $14 million. Even at today’s prices, $14 million can buy a darn good player, whether it’s a FA from another team or your own guy when he get eligible. Should that money have been saved for a rainy day, so to speak, given that the club is looking to 2010? What’s the difference if we lose with these guys or lose with kids from the farm? The good thing for the club is, the FA we signed are all stop gaps as there is only one 2 year deal in the bunch. So, even if your philosophy is to lose with the young guys, it’s not like the club has committed to 5 year contracts. In addition, the signees could turn into some minor trade bait at the deadline. Who knows who will be desperate for a SS or serveiceable SP in July?
Livan is a BAD signing.
Too expensive, and every start will be a nail biter. With the Twins poor offense, it will be demoralizing.
It would have made much more sense to keep Santana for the full year at less than double the price, and then get two first round draft picks for his departure as a free agent.
Michael Blaine
http://www.rudelystamped.blogspot.com
You can’t sell tickets at Major League prices to watch AAA players in Twins uniforms.
Lamb, Everett and Monroe are not AAA players.
Twins offense 2008
.285
Dean, you’re nuts.
What are these fantastical numbers you keep posting?
MB
Michael,
You are WRONG!!!!
Go back a month and read the blogs if you need an explanation.
Twins team era and wins
3.99
90-72
I’m not laughing
Sane, who pays to watch Lamb, Everett, or Monroe? Nobody. People will pay to watch Santana pitch or to watch Ramirez/Ortiz hit, but not our collection of FA’s. If the club is struggling, why does it matter if we have mediocre 30-somethins or young kids? Attendance drops if you stink no matter what.
I WAS here a month ago, Sid, and said the same thing: Letting Santana go for the bums we got in return was a big mistake.
Who would you rather have in the rotation for a year? Livan Hernandez or Johan Santana?
Michael Blaine
http://www.rudelystamped.blogspot.com
“Boneyard says:
February 12th, 2008 at 3:40 pm
Sane, who pays to watch Lamb, Everett, or Monroe? Nobody.”
That’s absolutely right.
MB
You’re right people don’t pay to watch them. They pay to watch Morneau, Cuddy, Mauer, Young, and Liriano.
Do Boston Fans pay to go watch Coco Crisp or do Yankees fans go to watch Wilson Betemit? Those are the equivalent players on those teams.
Who stays home because AAA players are in Twin uniforms - EVERYONE.
There are different levels of stink.
I would rather have Livan at 5 then Santana at 25. Santana only won four more games and gave up as many homers.
I WAS here a month ago, Sid, and said the same thing: Letting Santana go for the bums we got in return was a big mistake.
Who would you rather have in the rotation for a year? Livan Hernandez or Johan Santana?
Michael Blaine
http://www.rudelystamped.blogspot.com
So Boneyard and Dan, you’d rather not have Harris and watch Casilla twist himself into the ground and ruin his MLB career?
And you’d rather not have Lamb and instead watch any of Watkins or Buscher or another AAA player who will never improve at 3B? (Ya know, Lamb COULD solve 3B for a couple years.)
And who takes Monroe’s place for ya, Span? Ford?
My point is that these stop-gap measures, Hernandez included, give security and potential to next year too.
Because as for this year, we don’t want another Ford/L-Rod/Punto/rookie Casilla/Ponson/Ortiz year ever again. It’s bad for now, and it’s bad for the future.
People go to games to see their team compete.
Without the FA, the Twins aren’t even trying to compete.
“kevlarstorm says:
February 12th, 2008 at 3:47 pm
I would rather have Livan at 5 then Santana at 25. Santana only won four more games and gave up as many homers.”
In 2008 Livan will earn up to 7 million dollars, while Johan would have earned just 13.25 million.
On the margin, Johan makes a huge, huge difference.
MB
romer, you are right, i’m hoping that monroe will regain his old form which was mvp like, and hopefully the twinks can get that back in him.
Livan is okay; he was probably the best available out of the heap of free agent pitchers left. More importantly will Rincon now be the odd man out among the pitchers. He offers up batting practice…
At least I’m positive about the season and the club.
And you never know!!
That’s why you play the games.
On paper the Gaints should have never won the Super Bowl.
I’m so TIRED of pessimistic people!!
If you guys are done w/ your fantasies and delusional “movie” dreams of the Twins season, maybe we can actually talk about things going on in the REAL world of Twins baseball…
Not to derail your rainbow train to Hollywood though.
dan at work, thanks for making the choice of Baker over Monroe.
They’re both MVP types, right?
And MB, no future with Santana next year no matter what, right. Gomez is far better than the 2 draft picks.
So please lose your old thinking about Santana. There is and was no future with him. Time to rebuild.
He would have been a stop-gap — a very excellent one at that — but with a future going nowhere with the Twins.
As I recall Monroe seemed to always hurt us when we played the Tigers. Anybody know his Dome stats?
I’m with you Dean,
The Twins have had more than their share of great seasons with a smaller than avg budget. Perhaps this team will click and suprise the naysayers.
$5 mil for a pitcher who gave up 34 HR last year? Oh wait, the Mets are paying over $25 mil for one who gave up 33.
Face it people, just because there are players out there being grossly overpaid, it doesn’t mean we have to follow the trend. Big market teams can afford to make a $10 million mistake, the Twins can’t.
This is a great signing at a decent price. The Twins can still be fun to watch even if they can’t win a World Series. Only one team can win it anyway so are you saying the rest of the teams might as well not even play? Watch for the love of the game and you will all be much happier.
Monroe in the Dome:
In 35 games, .304 w/ 5HR, 22 RBI and .871 OPS
I only said “nay” to Dean about Mauer hitting homeruns and Slowey going lowey with the ERA.
But they aren’t going to win 90 this year unless all of my “if’s” click (which Dean says they will), and if they have an injury-free year.
Thanks Super G,
Extrapolates to: 23 HR 101 RBI
I think the Twins had to many ifs in there rotation not to make this move.
Hawk - nice job on the + / - deal. If anything I’d say you underestimated Santana by a couple, but more than make up for that by underestimating the positives for Harris/Monroe/Lamb.
Worst case scenario with this club - I don’t have to trip over the band wagoners in August/September. 6 more days people.
My if’s might not be high enough!!
You don’t have the facts straight Michael Blaine. Livan is guarenteed only 5 million dollars. Santana received a new contract when he signed with the Mets that averages 25 mil per year.
Whoa, even with the recent FA signings I wouldn’t say the Twins are trying to compete in ‘08. I mean, Lamb and That being said, it’s not like the team is wandering aimlessly. Bill Smith does seem to have a plan for 2010 and beyond, so I can stomach watching young guys struggle for a bit. It’s not like the mid-90’s when there seemed to be absolutely no direction for the team, or the current Marlins where there is absolutely no hope they will ever keep anyone costing more than a few million. I’m just saying the stare players draw fans, stop gaps don’t.
Just my quick two cents…I do not mind this signing and for all of the reasons listed above. I actually think that the Twins will score more this year but will give up more runs while playing better defense. All in all, I expect the record to be similar to last years. Maybe that is wishful thinking. I do think however, that Smith will need to keep working on building up the infield in AAA. Some of the veteran signings this year are not the long-term answers. The question is, do we have any long-term answers for the infield in the minors? Will the team have to make trades to get those answers? Those are the questions I have but it will be fun watching them come up with the answers.
Dude Michal Blaine, are you related to David Blaine???
I’d love the Twins to trade either a Manship or Blackburn for infield prospects. And do it quick, cuz Blackburn has probably peaked in trade value.
And I still think, if he’s cheap enough, that Lofton would be excellent for Gomez and Casilla to learn from.
He and Carew could set up their own little mini-camp for those 2 and Punto. Start a running game that could last for years.
You’ll have to excuse me if I can’t get excited about the prospect of Livan pitching 200 bad innings for us.
I like this signing. He will give the Twins similar numbers to what Silva would have, at less than 10% of the total dollar commitment. Plus, he gave up only one more Home Run last year than Santana. He’s a work horse who will benefit the Twins young pitchers greatly. Plus, he has big game experience, something Santana does not have.
Just another tired ragarm that is going to get lit up in the AL. Sponds alot like Ponson and Ortiz from last year. The only way this guy gets 200 innings is if the Twins are not in contention. I think we would be better seved going with the young guys in the rotation and spend the 5 mil on a big bat in the middle of the order to protect Morneau and Mauer. Just my opinion.
Right sweens, but he can pitch at the rate of 200 innings per season and let’s see if Perkins, Liriano, or Slowey can get up to that rate.
How much pressure do all the grumps here want to put on these young arms?
And on the young batters, Casilla, Gomez, Pridie?
What FA’s or trades, in total, would you have gotten instead of the stop-gappers as we transition away from the Judases — Hunter, Silva and Santana?
dude,
Dwight Howard needs to get ticket off and Demand a trade
Foye, Green, Ratliff and a couple picks should get the job done..
jefferson howard..
All day boy!!!!!!
nathan and livian are golf buddies
does this mean we extend nathan?
Livan Hernandez is an older version of Fogg; he will give the Twins innings and pitch some gems. At his age, staying power come second half will be the issue, I’d bet
Oast couple of years - except for 2006 - Hernandez has pitched less innings in the second half but given up more hits and runs..
Hope he’s good early
They could come cheap…
The outfield market is down to Barry Bonds, Reggie Sanders, Shannon Stewart, Kenny Lofton, Corey Patterson, Shawn Green, and Trot Nixon.
Kevin Mench is back with the Rangers on a minor league deal. The 30 year-old lefty-masher joins the mix for a backup outfield gig.
Mench came up a Ranger and was traded to Milwaukee in ‘06 as part of the Carlos Lee deal. His best year was 2004, when he hit .279/.335/.539 in 125 games.
With everything that has happened in baseball, who cares????
I dobnt think the Twins FO give a rats_ _ _ that livan and nathan are “golf buddies” … please
monroe buddy tori hunter sure stayed because of it,,,ohhh wait.
“kevlarstorm says:
February 12th, 2008 at 4:28 pm
You don’t have the facts straight Michael Blaine. Livan is guarenteed only 5 million dollars. Santana received a new contract when he signed with the Mets that averages 25 mil per year.”
Santana’s salary BEFORE the trade, and Livan’s including incentives. Don’t be a knucklehead.
“kevlarstorm says:
February 12th, 2008 at 3:47 pm
I would rather have Livan at 5 then Santana at 25. Santana only won four more games and gave up as many homers.”
In 2008 Livan will earn up to 7 million dollars, while Johan would have earned just 13.25 million.
On the margin, Johan makes a huge, huge difference.
Michael Blaine
http://www.rudelystamped.blogspot.com
And, I still maintain the following:
Giving up Santana’s final 34 starts in a Twins uniform was not worth the four players they got by trading him.
Those are 34 starts by a premier pitcher. Invaluable.
PLUS the two first-round draft picks the Twins would have received as compensation. One of THEM could have been the NEXT Johan or Torii.
Instead, without Johan in 2008, the Twins have assured themselves mediocrity, something that is extremely difficult to pull a team out of. The franchise will get back in the habit of losing, a la the 1993-2000 and 1979-86.
Michael Blaine
http://www.rudelystamped.blogspot.com
Michael Blaine
I don’t know if anyone informed you but Johan Santana WAS traded. It doesn’t do any good to play, what if’s because it already happened and there are no refunds. Move on. Thank you
jama:
Then why are we analyzing the Livan signing? It already happened. Nothing to say.
You don’t agree, right?
And I am saying it was dumb to trade Santana if the plan was then to bring in a relatively expensive slug like Livan.
Michael Blaine
http://www.rudelystamped.blogspot.com
Hey think postive its 5 million dollars we took from Pohlad.
Is Livan a vocal presence? If he is than that would make this deal better, because he could teach the young guys.
I case anyones wondering I don’t think that this topped the Twins trading for Monroe has the worst move on my list which I posted last night.
How about we all have our name below our posts. That would be “cool”
Tyler
In June, when Mets are in 1st place & Wagner & Maine blow out their elbows… they will trade Fmart & 3 other prospects for Livan & Nathan! Twins will rent one of Mets farm team locations & fill it with all their ex-prospects. Or not.
Take a breath everybody, have a little faith in the Twins scouts. As tight as the Twins are with a buck, they are not going to SPEND 5 MILLION DOLLARS unless they think Livan will provide something of value, whether as “Innings eater” or “tutor”. Let’s see what will happen.
some of you are taking some strong drugs, that’s for sure …
Good signing. People have mentioned it will save our young arms, but even more than that, now at least one game a week the bullpen can get the night off.
And, Livan can pinch hit for Everett or Punto a couple games a week.
Don’t forget, for homeruns, Chase Field had an index of 115 in 2007. The Metrodome had an index of 85. If you adjust homeruns allowed accordingly, you would get the following for adjusted home runs allowed in 2007:
Livan Hernandez 29
Johan Santana 40
Carlos Silva 24
Also, Chase field’s index for runs scored in 2007 was 106. The Metrodome’s was 97. Adjusted 2007 ERA’s are as follows:
Livan Hernandez 4.65
Johan Santana 3.43
Carlos Silva 4.32
I throw Santana into the mix here because he is still a hot topic to Twins fans. What I really see is how close Silva and Hernandez are numbers wise. Don’t forget, the Metrodome is a pitchers park (Isn’t that amazing?) while Chase field is a hitters park. Considering that the Twin’s commitment to Hernandez is 10% of the committment the Mariners made to Silva, I think the Twins signing Hernandez rather than Silva is very sound. It’s a good sigining and will help the Twins.
I like this signing, makes losing Silva an after thought. It will be interesting to compare his #’s to Silva’s come mid year. I would imagine we got a deal here. “Throw the Ephus………”
the Twins trading for Monroe has the worst move on my list
Care to actually explain how?
1) Monroe came at a very cheap price. I don’t even think there was a specific player named, just a PTBNL.
2) The Monroe contract can be torn up prior to Spring Training if the Twins wish, or right before the season…and I think at worst they owe him like $1M for his time (if even)
Who would you rather have in the rotation for a year? Livan Hernandez or Johan Santana?
Who would you rather have at third this year? Alex Rodriquez or Mike Lamb?
If Santana plays out his 08 with the Twins and leaves, it does just as much to help as Hernandez would. Because 08 was not going to be a competitive team unless the Twins went out and overpaid a bunch of free agents. And even then it would’ve been a crap shoot since short of Rodriquez and Rowand there wasn’t much out there to choose from that would dramatically fix the holes this team was facing.
T, in regards to the Monroe deal, as an added benefit, they don’t have to give up a player at all if he doesn’t make the 25 man roster out of Spring Training.
Double-oops. At 4:05, I meant “Ford over Monroe” to dan at work at 3:55.
But I shouldn’t have said even THAT, cuz I misread dan-at-work’s entry.
Sorry, dan at work……
Puzzle me this:
Which one is easier to hit into the baggie at the Hump?
Livan’s 60mph slurve for 34hrs or Johan’s 95mph laser for 33hrs?
Heck, you could check swing a Johan pitch outta da park. Livan will keep the ball in play for the Twins above average defense.
Can’t wait to see Gomez become a Super star even better than Hunter ever was. Just a thought, Corey Patterson to give the kid some time?
Bear with me here, been following the Royals too much, but, do the Twins get anything for Hunters FA signing? Gotta guess so.
Puzzle me again:
Livan Hernandez, Corey Patterson and 4 TOP prospects for Santana and a ton of cash to spare. Still think Bill Smith is a bad GM? Isn’t his job to evaluate these scenarios and try to make some sense of it all?
ATTA BOY BILLY!!
Barry Bonds would park a lot of butts into da dome. Who wouldn’t have wanted to BE THERE for Ruth’s swan song? No child left behind either. My kids would have to be there.
And with 200 to 300 walks Barry would be scoring a lot of runs. But, the Twins don’t need more run production this year right?
This is beyond a doubt the worst site for posting comments that I run across. Hardest to get to and hardest to return.
The baseball coverage in the Star and Sickle and Pioneer Press aren’t much to brag about either. Isn’t spring training starting about now?
Sunday.
[…] In a related note, here is my favorite comment of the many, many, many hilarious comments on Joe Christensen’s blog: I like the signing amid the talk of signing Fogg, etc. Many will think that it’s a waste of $$ and I can see their point. However, a veteran arm is great to go with young arms and good in case someone goes down (always happens). Pros: Innings eater, will give you 35 starts per year, playoff experience, veteran presence at a decent price, doesn’t roll over and die like Ponson/Ortiz. […]
