A closer look at Livan’s contract
Posted on February 14th, 2008 – 9:16 AMBy Joe Christensen
Livan Hernandez will need to pitch 160 innings to earn more than $5 million from the Twins this year, and the value of his new contract won’t reach $7 million unless he pitches 230 innings.
On Tuesday, Hernandez signed a one-year, $5 million contract with up to $2 million in incentives. The Star Tribune obtained a copy, and here’s a closer look:
Base salary: $3,500,000
Signing bonus: $1,500,000
Incentives
160 innings pitched: $133,334
165: $133,334
170: $133,334
175: $133,334
180: $133,334
185: $133,333
190: $133,333
195: $133,333
200: $133,333 (Note: That’s $6.2 million if he reaches the 200-inning mark.)
205: $133,333
210: $133,333
215: $133,333
220: $133,333
225: $133,333
230: $133,333
The contract includes a fairly standard awards package: $25,000 an for All-Star selection, $100,000 for World Series MVP honors, $50,000 for LCS MVP honors, $100,000 for the Cy Young Award, $50,000 for a Gold Glove.
It also stipulates that the Twins will not offer Hernandez arbitration if he becomes a Type A free agent. When teams offer Type A free agents arbitration, the next team that signs the player must surrender a first-round draft pick to the team that lost him. This can harm a players free agent value.
The Twins will receive an extra first-round pick from the Angels this year for losing Torii Hunter, a Type A free agent. Hernandez was a Type B free agent this year. By signing him, the Twins didn’t lose anything, but the team that last had Hernandez, Arizona, receives an additional draft pick.
112 Responses to "A closer look at Livan’s contract"
Fair deal for the Twins
This unlike deals in the past is actually pretty good I think. if this guy can eat up 200+ innings he will be worth the money. He is basically carlos silva but for less dough, This is a guy who will help out in multiple areas. Most importantly giving the bullpen a “guaranteed” rest every 5 days.
Nice deal gives the guy something to shoot for when he is pitching which can never hurt.
$26,667 an inning, nice work if you can get it. Our “innings eater” should be able to feed his kids on that!
hahahaha Gobble I love that remark I couldn’t believe it when spree said that
Joe, I wish you would look at what you and everyone else was saying about Ortiz last year before he ever pitched an inning for us. How he was an innings eater, but gave up a lot of home runs. How he beat the twins in the playoffs and all the similarities go on. The Twins are getting a free pass on this one from the media. Hernanadez has never pitched in the AL, throws 85mph, somtimes… I would rather give some kids opportunities at the big league level than watch this fat idiot give up bombs.
Keep drinking the Koolaid…
By similarities I mean in what the Twins front office and the media was saying then and is saying now about Livan. Livan, obviously has never faced the Twins in the playoffs. Sorry if that is confusing.
You can’t sign a slam-dunk free agent for $5 million.
If Livan was a sure thing front line starter, he would cost $48 million for
4 years.
Sane,
Nice sarcasm! Implying that Silva is a sure thing front line starter.
So, should we be hoping he doesn’t “EAT” so many innings as to not waste more money?
RG
There are 4 other starting pitcher positions available for kids to get opportunities. Include the fact that there will be injuries and some won’t be able to perform, there will be plenty of innings for many young kids this year.
Don’t forget all those kids will need support from the bullpen too.
Bullpen and starting pitching needs to be taken into account - LH is a needed help to both.
rghrbek-
Speaking of kool-aid drinking, the notion that we arn’t giving “some kids the oppertunities at the big league level” has its own irrational following among some on here. We will be starting four young guys this season, the arguement that we signing Livan means we are not giving our young guys a chance is silly. There is a difference in giving young guys a chance and depending on young guys.
Innings pitched in 07
Boof- 173
Baker- 134
Slowey- 66
Liriano- 0
Perkins- 28
Humber- 7
Blackburn- 11
That is a total of 419 innings. At 6 innings a game, that would cover about 70 games.
Expecting that bunch to extend themselves that significantly could have very negative long term effects on the bunch (See Wood, Kerry).
That should say MLB innings pitched.
I think lirrano will be ready to start the season, and i hope to watch him strike out hunter at least 3 times. slider every time.
Besides, people on here are way to negative about the Ortiz signing. Sure he ended up underperforming, but taken as a whole it wasnt that bad of a move.
He signed for $3.1 mil. But since the Rockies picked up the remainder of his contract he really cost the Twins $2.3 mil. For that amount we recieved:
4-4 record, 5.14 ERA 91.0 IP
A very good April, including stopping a loosing streak by almost singlehandedly beating the Yankees.
And most importantly: Matt Macri, not a bad prospect at all.
The move gets critiziced way too much.
hoepfully we get a decent prospect for livian at the deadline. if no extension is made by spring traing for nathan, hes as good as gone, as much as i would like for the twinks to keep him.
RyanW (no relation to me), that’s the same logic fans use to justify Punto being in the lineup or batting leadoff or Tyner being the DH. It’s because their scrappy, or they hustle and they are good defenders… Any amount of money for Ortiz last year was too much money, so it wasn’t THAT bad of a deal, it was a horrible deal.
Unfortunately, with the twins offense, a 5.00 era over 200 innings will get you a 5-15 record…
This guy’s going to piss himself facing lineups like the Tigers and White Sox. This is not the NL West, Jack.
Thanks for the contract info. Goes to show that the Twins know exactly what they are going to use Hernandez for, and also that Livan is more than happy to serve that purpose.
Speaking of pitcher contracts, it’s the beginning of the end over in Cleveland.
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7718262?MSNHPHMA
I would say Sabbathia is a step below Santana, and was offered a 4-year $18m per contract.
The precident has been set. Cleveland may wind up being a great example of why it was smart to deal Santana now rather than let him play out 08.
get over it people…gardy and andy will know, coming out of spring training whether or not livan will be able to help them or not. i dont believe he will come north if he is of no value to this staff..so y’all can just relax and take a breath, dont worry, its not your money at risk here and enjoy…he might just have a great year with the twins and the kids can learn and it will be very important, this year more than others to get that bullpen some rest from time to time..with these kids not expecting to go more than 5-6 innings, that bullpen is going to need some damn rubber arms…..soo good luck to livan and welcome aboard…..
“Cleveland may wind up being a great example of why it was smart to deal Santana now rather than let him play out 08.”
Unless you’re of the opinion keeping your star pitcher for his last year under contract and hoping to contend, then getting two high picks, is a better plan than dealing your star pitcher for less-than-equal talent.
I still think the Twins made a mistake accepting the Mets package.
Chief,
That’s why the Twins haven’t hired you as their GM.
What makes this situation harder for Cleveland than Minnesota is that Cleveland was a playoff team last year and will likely be a contender this year.
So they have more to gain by holding onto Sabbathia going into 08. I don’t know if he has an NTC, but if Cleveland’s out of it they could try and trade him to a contender midseason, or if they’re still in the hunt, go ahead and keep him in the hopes that a strong playoff push will convince him to rethink his decision to end contract talks. They don’t need the kind of immediate help the Twins do…they could take the hit from the loss of Sabbathia and hope the draft picks turnout (though if I were an Indians fan I would make darn sure they have a plan going into 08 should they be in a playoff push at the deadline).
The Twins were not going to contend in 08 with or without Santana, and it was clear they were not going to be able to afford to keep him beyond that. So the best move was to deal him for prospects that would be ready by 09/10 vs. draft picks that’ll be lucky to see MLB action by 2012.
But that conversation has been done to death.
Just wanted to note that RyanW has a dyslexic typo above. Baker had 143.2 IP in 07. Then adding in the partial IP for the other guys the total is 430.2, or almost 72 games.
This got me thinking so I looked up what the bullpen did in 07.
Guerrier- 88
Nathan-71.2
Neshek- 70.1
Rincon- 59.2
Reyes- 29.1
Cali- 21
DePaula- 20
Crain- 16.1
Miller- 4
Total: 380.1
Remember that some of these guys had problems with fatigue towards the end of last year. It would be unrealistic to believe that the bullpen will be able to go much higher in IP count.
Just for those of you wondering. The pitchers who are no longer with the Twins represent the largest number of IP.
Santana- 219
Silva- 202
Ortiz-91
Garza- 83
Ponson- 37.2
Total: 632.2
That number is much larger than I thought it would be! If Hernandez is able to hit the 200 mark and have a decent ERA, I think he is worth every penny. I have been positive about him since day one.
imo the quality of the innings eaten are way more important than the #. if he pitches 220 innings and is giving up 4-5 runs every start we won’t win many of those games. in the end every 5 starts you are throwing a game away with a hope and a prayer to win one. if he can keep his runs given up in the 3’s that would give us a chance in most games. i really don’t enjoy watching games when you know the chances of winning are slim because he’s just showing up to eat innings.
You have to remember ERA does not mean he gives up 4-5 in a start. A quality start is a starting pitcher who completes at least six innings and permits no more than three earned runs.
OR a pitcher could conceivably meet the minimum requirements for a quality start and record a 4.50 ERA.
“Nice sarcasm! Implying that Silva is a sure thing front line starter.”
In Seattle, he is.
jakenate,
Good point. In Minnesota, Slowey with 4 career wins is.
[…] Original post by Around the Majors […]
On my web blog (http://lee-the-twins-fan.blogspot.com/) , I noted an interesting fact about Hernandez. Last year, Hernandez’ ERA was 3.94 in April, 3.29 in May and 3.60 in August. In the other three months, it was over 6.00. Maybe he will do well in the climate-controlled Metrodome, instead of in the Arizona heat.
I have no records, but maybe He was more comfortable in the AZ heat by August?
In regards to this comment: http://nc.startribune.com/blogs/christensen/?p=488#comment-242620
I’ve added their total inning pitched to that list, including minor league innings, round numbers:
Boof- 173
Baker- 134/186
Slowey- 66/200
Liriano- 0
Perkins- 28/48
Humber- 7/146
Blackburn- 11/160
Not all innings are created equally, of course, but extending these guys to more innings wouldn’t necessarily hurt them as much as if their major league innings were their only innings.
RyanW -
“Innings pitched in 07
Boof- 173
Baker- 134
Slowey- 66
Liriano- 0
Perkins- 28
Humber- 7
Blackburn- 11
That is a total of 419 innings. At 6 innings a game, that would cover about 70 games.
Expecting that bunch to extend themselves that significantly could have very negative long term effects on the bunch (See Wood, Kerry).”
You corrected yourself in the very next post. You counted MLB innings only. If those were the only innings any of them threw, then sure, expecting them to throw 200 innings would be insane. But it wasn’t. Here are the total innings pitched over the course of last year for some of the guys you mentioned :
Bonser - 173 (All were at the MLB level)
Baker - 186.3 (143.6 MLB / 42.6 AAA)
Slowey - 200.3 (66.6 MLB / 133.6 AAA)
Humber - 146 (7 MLB / 139 AAA)
Blackburn - 160.3 (11.6 MLB / 148.6 AAA)
Expecting some of these guys (Baker or Bonser) to extend to 200 - or in the case of Slowey to pitch 200 again - isn’t really asking much. And in all honesty, probably isn’t needed.
thisisbeth beat me to it!
I agree with the point, however.
gobble - if all the Twins sp’ers could keep their runs given up in the 3’s, the Twins will win 95 games.
Funny - I think the last time I posted was yesterday morning, yet I get the “Slow down cowboy!” The Strib staff needs to fix that annoyance.
Calm down, everyone. Simple question, would you like to have Livan as an OPTION for this season or not. With everything this team has lost this year, it would sure make sense to add SOMETHING.
I don’t think Livan will be as effective as Silva was last year (and Livan’s WHIP was a terrible 1.595 in the NL last year). But remember the situation last year…first of all, Ortiz actually looked like he’d be a success in April, until the wheels fell off. But the main knock on Ponson and Ortiz wasn’t that THEY were bad, it was that we already had young kids who were ready. With the trades and departures, we have guys like Perkins and Blackburn looking at that 5th starter spot, and they haven’t proven they can pitch a big league season yet. Not to mention that there’s no guarantee Liriano makes it through either.
And if it’s the money you’re worried about…it’s only one year for Livan, and this budget is so low anyway, who cares!
“Ihave no records, but maybe He was more comfortable in the AZ heat by August?”
Um, Lee Henschel, you’re aware that the Diamondbacks play in a domed stadium, right?
Pete D
It wouldn’t be out of the question for one of the current Twins starters to reach 200 innings this year.
The fact simply is that 200 innings is a really big deal in the majors. If a team doesn’t have starters who can pitch 200 innings, they will use lots of pitchers during the season - which for the Twins in 2008 is a good thing.
The problem is that with a team with no starters reaching 200 innings, that puts a tremendous strain on the bullpen.
It won’t be easy to shuffle starting pitchers between the majors and minors during the season and it will be even more difficult to do this with the Twins relief corps.
38 pitchers threw 200+ innings in 2007. Two of them were Twins - both now gone.
b: my point is that anything over a 5.00 era is not going to win you many games. if you go 6 that’s 3.3 runs and 7 inn. is 3.85 runs. it seems that anything under a 5 era is, regretably, acceptable. livan has been around 5 the last 2 yrs in a more pitcher friendly nl. ortiz looked much better in the nl than he did with the twins. this may be wrong but i think i read that a pitcher’s era will go up about 1/2 point going from the nl to the al.
the slow down cowboy is because more than one person is submitting at the same time not you in particular.
To all those who maintain we should not have signed Everett, Lamb, Monroe and Livan, because we could have saved money by letting the Rochester Red Wings play in Twins uniforms:
All the money saved would have been lost when the Twins impersonators drew only 400,000 in attendance.
Everyone else would have stayed home because the Twins would obviously have not been trying to compete.
Just can’t believe how Excited I’m about this season! Enjoy the Twins the most when the New Kids come up and take over.
Duensing will be very interesting. Could easily make the club or early call up.
my point is that anything over a 5.00 era is not going to win you many games. if you go 6 that’s 3.3 runs and 7 inn. is 3.85 runs.
Since you can’t give up half runs, that means you’re essentially giving up 4 runs over 7 innings.
If a guy can continually pitch 7 innings and give up 3-4 runs each time…that’s by no means a bad pitcher.
The only reason 3-4 looks bad to us is because we’re used to an offense that can only score 1-2 a game. That hopefully will change this season.
I think the Twins should be trend-setters pilot the SIX MAN rotation this season.
HA!
Scooter,
The six-man rotation either squeezes your bullpen or squeezes your bench by stealing a spot on the 25-man roster needed by the bullpen or the bench.
t: are you saying an era of high 4’s-5 is a good pitcher? thanks for telling me about the 1/2 run i didn’t know that i thought if you got to 2b it was a 1/2 run.
The other thing in the back of the FO mind is the service clock on some of the young guys. Does it make sense to have a young guy start the MLB clock when there is a good chance of failure?
Just means he will be out of the Twins payscale sooner!
Actually Truth, they don’t. Chase Field has a retractable roof.
I say move Punto to the bullpen.
I’m not overly excited about Livan myself but I’ve mentioned it myself on multiple sites and read others writing about the fact that he had 19 Quality starts last year. In fact he’s had at least that many in each of the last 6 years. I think there’s definitely reason to think Livan could be a serviceable starter. He’ll probably give us some horrible horrible starts mixed with some really good quality ones.
With all the uncertainty surrounding our young starters bringing in ONE veterean SP is fine with me. However if they sign another guy before or during Spring training I’ll be pissed unless it’s a response to multiple injuries.
I say move Punto to ballboy
B,
The clock has already started for Liriano, Baker, Bonser, Slowey, Perkins, Blackburn and Humber.
Duensing and maybe Swarzak are the only likely SP candidates who haven’t pitched MLB.
Punto will be John McCain’s running mate on the GOP ticket this year.
Punto should be the designated worthless infielder.. oh wait. he already is
anyone know when lirrano is a free agent? because if he has a good year, we need to lock him up for as many years as possible.
Bombo -
I agree that it puts a strain on the bullpen. My solution is to just carry another bullpen arm. Sure, you cut your bench down a player, but who are you going to put there anyway?
I guess I would look at something like this : 9 regulars. Redmond, Punto, back up CF/OF (Monroe?), and someone else. That’s 13 guys, allowing them to take 12 pitchers north. Then you could have the 5 starters, Nathan, Rincon, Crain, Reyes, Neshek, Guerrier, and another long reliever.
The Truth:
Yes, I guess I was unaware of that fact. Thanks for setting me straight.
That makes the different ERAs by month even more puzzling.
Ah wait… maybe it was the teams they played.
O well. Maybe the Metrodome’s air conditioning will work better than Arizona’s did… I can hope can’t I?
How many times do you see a player have a off season and come back the next.
Punto .290
133 hits
21 2B
7 3B
45 RBI
Robert:
Arizona has a retractable roof? Hum… they need that in Arizona, but Minnesota doesn’t?!?
Do they keep it closed if the temperature rises above 95 degrees? Or just when it rains?
PeteD-
A major league inning is much different than a minor league inning. Pitching to Pudge, Mags, Miguel Cabara is not the same as pitching to Darnell McDonald, Denard Span and Brian Buscher.
The point was better made by Mike A (sorry about the dyslexia btw, not intentional). Not only does starting 5 young guys put stress on their arms, it also puts stress on the bullpen.
What does Mike A know about baseball.. he talks like he has season tickets or something
Truth, Robert and everyone:
I suspect Hernandez’ big curve ball works better in lower humidity/heat which is why he would do much better in earlier months. Why he did so well in August is puzzling.
Of course, he would still be pitching about half his games out of town.
Which months are high humidity in Arizona?
“RyanW (no relation to me), that’s the same logic fans use to justify Punto being in the lineup or batting leadoff or Tyner being the DH. It’s because their scrappy, or they hustle and they are good defenders… ”
Um, no. In fact nothing about my logic had anything to do with scrappiness or hustle. Only total amount spent, Ortiz’ actual numbers and the return we recieved in Matt Macri.
In fact your response follows the same logic you are decring. You say it was a bad move based on your personal observation and gut feeling. Yet the problem you seem to have with Gardy is that he plays Punto and Tyner based on his gut feelings and emotions.
I agree w/ Willie B. on that one… MikeA states his opinion like it’s fact and we should all bow to his baseball knowledge… where does he come off?
RyanW, the delusions you have is that Ortiz actually produced good numbers vs the amount of money wasted on him. Everyone in baseball knows it was a horrible signing and if it wasn’t, why was he reduced to the bullpen and no innings after the first 3 months of the season?
My personal observations hold more water than your “ramon ortiz was valuable at $3.1M theory”
My LOGIC is derived from the past 3 season of bad moves by the Twins, signing veteran presence and not spending money where they need to (on hitters and the draft) thus making it more difficult each year to fill holes and field a competitive product on the field (which should be the goal), but signing Ruben Sierra and Tony Batista puts you a bad spot, therefore making Sidney Ponson and Ramon Ortiz all-star selections the next year, and now: Mike Lamb, Adam Everett, Livan Hernandez are supposed to fill the same holes… Until they put an end to this type of management, they shall always be 1, 2, 3 players short of any sort of contention for a title.
Lamb hits almost .300 the last 2 years and you don’t think that fills holes.
We pick up one of the Best Gloves in both leagues and that doesn’t fill holes
We now have an innings burner to take pressure off youngsters and that does not fill holes?
When are we going to sign Bonds?
Yea Punto offensively stunk last year.
2006 .290 and was one of the biggest spark plugs I’ve seen.
MarkW,
You just stated your opinion as fact.
Where do you come off?
Lamb for a 3rd baseman is avg at best in the NL, this is the AL… his bat may be more productive than Punto’s at 3rd (whose isn’t?) but his defense in the field is below avg and therefore costs us “wins”… he may be a solution, but in no way is he the answer.
In Lamb the Twins get an above average offensive player whose horrible defense makes him a slightly below average all-around third baseman. That may not sound especially impressive, but “slightly below average all-around third baseman” represents a big improvement over what the Twins have gotten from the position post-Koskie.
MarkW
Lamb and Everett don’t excite me, but they don’t make me afraid either.
Who would you have preferred to be the supposed starting 3B and SS this year going into ST?
I support the LH signing, but understand others who don’t like it (I just disagree with them).
The 2nd part of that was from A.Gleeman.com…
I never said it was a downgrade, it’s just not a formidable solution to the glaring hole at 3rd base, what do we do in 2 years?
Sid, MY opinion IS fact because it’s true. Deal with it.
Dean, my problem is filling a hole for 1 year is not the answer, and it’s what we’ve been doing now for 3 years…
Dean - your optimism is almost catchy, but when you try to say good things about Punto…….you lose any credibility you actually may have.
Punto is a spark plug as a role player. His role is to start 1 or 2 times per week, pinch run and play defense late in a game if a starting infielder is not as good as he is.
Giving him more than 200 at bats in a season is just wrong. And none should be as a pinch hitter!!
MarkW,
I am clear now.
Your opinion is fact.
Everyone else’s opinion is opinion.
I’ve got it now.
“the delusions you have is that Ortiz actually produced good numbers vs the amount of money wasted on him.”
False. I said the he “underperformed.” That statement would not imply that I thought he produced “good” numbers. Your interpetation of what I said is wrong.
Also, you say:
“My personal observations hold more water than your “ramon ortiz was valuable at $3.1M theory.”
I am not sure why you would put quotes around something that is not a direct quote. WHAT I SAID was: “taken as a whole it wasnt that bad of a move” and “the move gets criticized way too much” neither of those two statments mean that I think he was “valuable” (your word) at $3.1 mil. (In fact, if you read my post, I already pointed out that we didn’t spend 3.1 on him, we spent 2.3 as the Rockies picked up nearly a million when we dealt him).
Bombo, I’ve said many a time that they need to decide whether or not they are trying to win this year or not and let young players develop and try to get some hitting from the draft, etc. Deciding that makes you decide what to do with SS and 3B and DH and your starting pitching and everything else. If you are unloading expensive veterans like Silva, Hunter, and Santana, it shows me you are ready to rebuild, spend money on the draft and try to acquire young talent via trades. But when you contradict those moves w/ more veteran signings and say you want to compete this year with a mix of young and old players, it complicates things… You can’t just look at this year, you have to look at the years past and see the missed opportunities they have blown…
i understand Billy Smith was put in a tough situation, but if you are going to tear down 3 walls, why not just tear down the whole house?
Sid, I’m glad you’ve come around…
RyanW, I shouldn’t have wasted the time to type that all out, instead I should have said, “Nothing you say is credible if you think Ramon Ortiz was worth even 1 start last season, let alone an entire roster spot for the whole year - One dollar or 1 million was overpaying for him…” This is why we continue to sink into mediocrity, but if all of you enjoy it, then you are free to do so…
Sid, MY opinion IS fact because it’s true. Deal with it.
Opinion by its very definition cannot be fact.
One opinion can have a stronger basis than another, but it cannot be true or false.
(And saying: “Well it’s my opinion the sky is orange!” doesn’t cut it as a counterargument, as that’s a statement that goes against fact.)
Long story short: If you claim your “opinion” is true, you’re claiming it’s not an opinion…but rather fact.
And if you claim it as fact, others are allowed to counter your alleged fact with their own facts.
So MarkW, who should be playing 3B and SS (and 2B) for the Twins this year?
Also, by “acquire young talent via trades” do you mean young talent like Delmon Young, Carlos Gomez, Phil Humber…? Or did you mean OTHER young talent?
And another thing, I agree they should “try to get some hitting from the draft.” I just wasn’t aware the Twins had decided to skip the draft this year.
Thanks for clearing that up.
RyanW -
“A major league inning is much different than a minor league inning. Pitching to Pudge, Mags, Miguel Cabara is not the same as pitching to Darnell McDonald, Denard Span and Brian Buscher.
The point was better made by Mike A (sorry about the dyslexia btw, not intentional). Not only does starting 5 young guys put stress on their arms, it also puts stress on the bullpen. ”
Obviously the talent is definitely at a different level. I agree. But Boof still threw 173 innings at an MLB level last year. Baker threw 143 innings at an MLB inning. To ask either of those guys to go 200 really isn’t out of the picture. I’d even throw Slowey in that group.
Even with that said - they don’t have to throw 200 innings. The total number of innings thrown by Twins starters last year was roughly 980 innings. Even if you had only 5 starting pitchers you used all year, they still wouldn’t have to pitch 200 innings each to reach that total. Just spread it out over a 6th guy, and the average innings pitched drops to 163.
My point is - the Twins have plenty of arms that are capable of putting up the numbers that you are going to get from Livan Hernandez. Why not give those innings to someone who may be in the long term plans for your franchise?
MarkW
Of course past moves (and non-moves) lead to where the Twins are to begin the 2008 season.
I would have no problem with them clearly stating we are in rebuilding mode for the next two years.
Who do you think should be playing SS and 3B this year?
What do you think their core players like Morneau, Mauer, Cuddyer, Young and include the younger starting pitchers would think if the Twins made no moves so that they could play on a competitive team this year?
Do you think they would have been able to lock up Morneau without improving the team over last year?
I am not saying that he would not have, but there are some good players on the team and for them to make the decision to stay with the Twins past 2010, they probably do need to feel that the team isn’t throwing in the towel for 2 to 3 seaons. Right?
RyanW,
I tend to agree with you on your Ortiz take, regardless of what MarkW thinks. There’s no doubt he underperformed, but since Colorado ate a portion of his salary, and he did get 4 wins, we paid him about $500,000 per win. Consider Carlos Silva is going to get about $1M per win this year and Santana is going to get about $1.1M per win this year (20 wins divided by approx. $22.5M), we got a steal out of Ortiz.
I know you can’t determine whether or not a player was a success that way, but I think when you look at it that way, the Ortiz signing was not that bad. Great? No. Horrible? Hardly.
MarkW,
You would prefer Buscher at 3B, Punto at SS and Casilla at 2B this year, while we lose fans, ticket, concession, and parking money and the Twins lose 100 games.
Better to keep some money coming in by competing this year and thus be able to finance our future upgrades.
How many times do you see a player have a off season and come back the next.
Punto .290
133 hits
21 2B
7 3B
45 RBI
You’re implying that 2007 was in fact an “off” year for Punto. Looking at his career a much better case can be made for 2006 being his “off” year. Poor offensive players will more likely than not continue to be bad.
Chief, The Twins have notoriously drafted players that won’t demand much in a signing bonus so as not to put a lot of money into them, that’s why we have Ben Revere and Denard Span in the minors and have had to trade for guys like Carlos Gomez (who we hope can fill our CF position now). They would have been better suited taking all the money that’s been wasted on our “veteran” signings and putting it into the draft (last year, this year, whenever) but they never have. We continue to pass off $2M, $3.1M, $5M signings as fillers…
The way Gardy monitors pitch counts and yanks his starters, Livan likely won’t reach a lot of those incentive figures.
“Nothing you say is credible if you think Ramon Ortiz was worth even 1 start last season”
Numbers in April. 5 starts, 5 quality starts, 3-0 record. 2.57 ERA.
He wasn’t Sidney Ponson.
MarkW,
I just spelled it wrong.
Your opinion IS fuct.
In Ortiz’s two NDs in April - Twins scored 1 run (vs KC) and 3 runs (vs Detroit).
After April - he was basically horrible.
The signing of Livan “El Lardo Asso Mucho Worthlesso” was a pathetic, desperate move. He is a more obese version of Ponson.
ben,
You are entitled to your opinion.
And I am entitled to the opinion that your opinion is Mucho Worthlesso.
Ben - how do you come to your conclusion when comparing Ponson and LH (or LELAMW)?
Bombo,
Well, an ERA of 4.93 in the ‘07 NL West is probably going to equate into something closer to 5.5-6.0 in the ‘08 AL Central. I realize the twins had very few options at this point, but I find it hard to believe Livan is going to pitch successfully this season. Personally I would Bert come out and pitch again.
RyanW,
Maybe we should sign Ramon Ortiz to a one-month contract for April, 2008.
Can anyone tell me the last time we won the central? How many times in how many years? I forget?
Boy the Twins were stupid to pick up a rule 5 player.
We should have spent the money back then.
We could had a great team now!!
Short Short Short Memory!!!!!
Half of you are “not” Twins fans
Ben
He definitely isn’t great, but has a much better and proven track record than Ponson.
I don’t like to make predictions, but by season’s end, I don’t think there will be any major difference between the numbers of Silva and Livan (Silva will have much less walks of course).
The Mariners will be the most upset, if this turns out to be the case 
Half of you are “not” Twins fans
Go park your self-righteousness elsewhere. Fans of this team, especially those who have supported it financially (which would basically be everybody), can express themselves any way they please. If you find it that distasteful feel free to unplug any time.
dean,
The last time we won the division was in ‘06. Before that we won it in ‘02, ‘03, ‘04. That would make 4 out of 5 seasons we won the division. I’m pretty sure that was a rhetorical question, but i’ll answer it anyway
Bombo,
I do agree with you for the most part. I think Hernandez will probably end up under .500 but do a descent job of going out pitching enough innings to keep the pen somewhat rested, personally I’d rather see the younger guys up there, but I understand why the front office brought him in.
Thanks Ben
wow, looks like we should have signed kyle lohse with the reaction livan is getting. livan hernandez was brought in to show their young pitchers, especially liriano, what it takes to be a mlb pitcher. world series mvp brings a little respect, just not here
and i’m sure big joe and reddog would love to bottle feed a whole rotation of guys who haven’t pitched a whole mlb season. go twins
At least they didn’t sign Curt Shilling to a non insured contract. talk about getting fuct
Hey, the Trib needs to update its Twins website. Torri and Johan are still pictured at the top and most of the stories are from the Winter Meetings! It looks ridiculous. Who is in charge there?
Although I am not a big fan of Everett (all D, no O) or Lamb (never won a full time job) or Livan (on the downside of his career), I’m not horribly upset with these signings. They are clearly not the future of this club. The longest deal is Lamb’s 2 year deal. These guys are seat warmers, nothing more, and the club clearly doesn’t view them as anything more. Mr. Smith is more aggressive than Mr. Ryan was and will look to improve the team at those positions. Also, you never know what contender is going to get desperate for a back of the rotation starter with playoff experience, or need a LH bat, or a defensive upgrade in the middle infield, which would make Mr. Smith busy at the deadline.
the franchise is being held up in the domican republic, get him home now, we need him more than ever.
to strike out hunter in every at bad.
same question no answer from earlier, when is lirrano a free agent? because if he has decent year, long term him on a 6-7 year deal , with the last year or 2 club options.
I’m pretty sure that Liriano is under Twins control for another 5 seasons. I’m not 100% sure, but I think he has accrued just over one year of service time.
Liriano’s rookie season surpassed Livan Hernandez’s best year(s). I think Liriano could teach Hernandez a thing or two about pitching in the majors lol
Liriano is a free agent in 2012. With his injury problems it’s smart for the Twins to wait until after this season to see how he performs. He’ll obviously cost more than he would right now but it’s not worth the risk to sign him long term without some proof that he can hold up. Worst case scenario he’s gonna be an amazing bullpen guy(closer for sure) and the Twins won’t want to pay him. He’s another reason I don’t want the Twins to sign Nathan. There are so damn many starters with the Twins one of them should be able to convert to a bullpen guy that can close.
