A few off-day Twins nuggets
Posted on March 19th, 2008 – 10:45 AMBy Joe Christensen
I’m cranking out copy for our season preview section today, as the Twins take their lone off day of the spring, but wanted to give you a few leftover thoughts from the past week:
(*) Brendan Harris is batting .176 with a .222 on-base percentage. I think second base would be his if he would start hitting. Nick Punto is batting .172 with a .250 OBP. Time for somebody to step up over the next week.
(*) I wrote for last Sunday about the gamble the Twins are taking on Mike Lamb at third base, noting the career fielding percentages at third base for Nick Punto (.968), Michael Cuddyer (.941) and Lamb (.923). But I should note here that Lamb has impressed me defensively this spring. He has decent hands and seems to catch the balls he gets to.
(*) Joe Nathan’s agent, Dave Pepe, is in Fort Myers, and we’re keeping our ears open for any news about a possible contract extension. The guess here is we’ll have a pretty good idea by week’s end whether Nathan will be a Twin beyond 2008 or whether he’ll become one of the top names to watch on the trade market.
(*) Nathan, by the way, is dominating hitters again this spring, with a 1.50 ERA and nine strikeouts in six innings. And then there’s Pat Neshek’s spring line: 8 IP, 2 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 0 BB, 8 K. Matt Guerrier (6.43 ERA) and Juan Rincon (4.50 ERA) have struggled a bit, but Neshek and Nathan have the back of the bullpen looking very strong.
(*) Always interesting to read a national expert’s take on the Twins after they pay a visit to Fort Myers. Peter Gammons was in camp recently and was immediately drawn to Delmon Young, later noting that Harris will start at second base with Punto serving as the utility infielder.
(*) Finally, we have launched our Twins video player card series, with Joe Mauer and Mike Lamb. Be sure to check them out. And the reason I especially liked our Haiku video is it gave a fun glimpse at some of these guys’ personalities that goes beyond what people see in standard interviews.
UPDATE: Scott Baker threw a 12-minute bullpen session today with no problem and should be ready to pitch in a game again soon. He had been out since March 8, with a strained right lat muscle and the flu.
200 Responses to "A few off-day Twins nuggets"
Right now I would put Tolbert at 2B and see how he does. At least he is hitting better then the other two.
Does Harris have any options left?
I agree with Tolbert at 2B. TC Bear has a better swing than Punto!
The problem is that having Tolbert, Harris and Punto on the team is trice redundant. One of the 3 has to go from the 25 men roster. The easier to go would be Tolbert, but really Punto should go. Would the Twins bite the $2.4 mil bullet and make it happen?
I would have liked to see Casilla at 2B but since that’s obviously not happening, I’ll take Harris. Just as long as Punto is on the bench, go ahead and put Al Newman out there for all I care.
Does anybody have Insider and can they copy and paste that Gammons article?
I think we should get A-Rod to play 2B for us.
Patrick,
I cannot copy and paste the whole article for obvious reasons, but some points made were:
* Gardy said that “we need to stress catching the ball and throwing strikes” and “we’ll be ok”
*The bullpen is good, the middle of the order is good, need to work out the infield. Quotation from Gaetti that Everett has the best SS fundamentals in the NL
*Gomez can be a change maker but will be educational year for him if he makes it in the majors
interesting statistical look at the battle for the CF and leadoff spot:
Denard Span:
.290 avg, .421 OBP, 3 SB, 6 R, 13 total bases.
Carlos Gomez:
.244 avg, .267 OBP, 8 SB, 10 R, 19 total bases.
-the last 2 stats to me give an idea of who’s doing a better overall job of what is asked of a leadoff guy. Span leads by miles in the OBP category, BUT, Gomez is still producing at a much better clip when he gets on. In this case I think you ignore the OBP #’s and look at the production, which highly favors Gomez…
I agree Keep(JohanAndTorii)AtAnyPrice, I mean, it all comes down to runs. You can get on base at a .500 clip but if you don’t score that doesn’t really matter. Now just imagine if Gomez learns how to take pitches and hit for average. I think it is a no-brainer, you’ve got to go with Gomez.
plus gomez will give a reason for casual twins fans to keep an interest, because he’ll be a human highlight reel in the field and on the basepaths, more exciting than Reyes even…
How many at bats Span vs. Gomez?
I think Gomez should start, send him down when/if he struggles to save the 2 months. If he does not struggle, it is worth the money to keep him up.
Gomez should start. Would, however, the Twins keep him in the minors for a month to save a year in arbitration?
Gomez should be playing where he can learn the most. He will be our CF for a long time.
gomez only has 5 more at bats if I remember correctly. span 36, gomez 41
keep,robert,
Be careful.
I suggested that scoring runs might be more important than OBP a week ago and was chased off the blog.
I agree with you, but be warned, we are an unpopular minority.
sane,
huh, seems dumb to be chased off for that, I’ll take PRODUCTION over OBP any day of the week…
last time I checked, you had to score runs to win games, and from those #’s, Gomez does a much better job of getting those….
I like Gomez but we need to find a way to get that cocky attitude out of him. This isn’t the NBA, it’s Baseball. The last thing we need is a Manny Ramirez on our team.
Gomez has 41 AB, and EIGHT stolen bases. That is absolutely insane, extrapolate those numbers for even 400 AB in a year and you get 80 f-ing stoling bases.
yeah yeah yeah, stoling=stolen
Gomez is a train-wreck,you don’t want to see him in centerfield because he’s not Tori, but he’s alot of fun to see crash into walls and successfully steal bases even when picked off. Minnesota hasn’t seen an athlete like this since randy was to real for the puritan WASP fan base in minnesota. We got screwed in the santana deal, but if humber becomes the post-nathan era closer and guerra ends up a #1-2 starter then we’ll live.
cocky ok if your a team player!!
move the runners gomez not everyone can steal at will!!
All this emphasis in minnesota sports put on “quality guys” is B.S. get athletes and a coach that garners deserved respect alla that guy in new england, T.K., jimmy johnson, ect.
(*) Brendan Harris is batting .176 with a .222 on-base percentage. I think second base would be his if he would start hitting. Nick Punto is batting .172 with a .250 OBP. Time for somebody to step up over the next week.
So basically, Punto isn’t very good…but it’s not like Harris is looking like an upgrade at this point. I’d still rather gamble on Harris, considering Punto’s future with this club after 08 is sketchy at best.
Minnesota hasn’t seen an athlete like this since randy was to real for the puritan WASP fan base in minnesota.
What? If anything, Randy’s departure was caused by the stupid Minnesota sports media and it’s regular inability to do anything except try and tear apart a good thing. At least the sports media that converged on Moss following that stupid mooning thing (I hated Joe Buck before, but after that whole debacle I loathe him more than any media figure at present)
I agree with you, but be warned, we are an unpopular minority.
Logic in general appears to be in the unpopular minority around these parts.
If you ever want somebody to take your post seriously, make sure to include “Punto sucks” or “Pohlad’s cheap” somewhere in your text and everybody will automatically agree with everything you say.
…Cheap Pohlad won’t dump sucky Punto.
i would suggest to the twins that cuddyer (being the leader he is and wants to be)gets a hold on gomez and never let go…let him stay in the bigs as long as he stays glued to cuddyer and learns to be a bit more humble, less reggie jackson and to just plain mature on and off the field…i believe cuddyer could help this young man alot if gomez is willing …hes as cocky as he is great…i want to see the greatness this kid can bring this ballclub………
At least we got something for santana we just gave away the best WR ever!!(Jerry Rice doesn’t count he’s OCD about everything he does no one will ever play football better)
OBP is a much more meaningful stat than runs scored. Runs scored has to do with the batters after you. Someone with two times the OBP is more likely to score than someone who gets on base half as often but is fast. You can’t score if you are not on base.
I don’t actually expect you to buy this, given what you’ve typed here, but it is, nonetheless, true.
cuddy could use his magic and threaten to make gomez disappear……….to rochester…..
The media is representative of the of the predominantly ignorant fan base. Like moe williams said a black man can’t a fair trial in minnesota. If santana and hunter were white polad would have paid them. Sorry it’s the truth
bet joe mauer gets whatever he asks for when his contract is up
shameless, so when Pohlad made Puckett the highest paid player ever, that was what again?
When he refused to pay viola or knoblauch, what caused those decisions?
shameless is obviously an idiot and/or craig in disguise. By the way, Santana isn’t black.
The reason OBP is more important than runs scored is pretty simple.
All a player can control is getting on base, which OBP measures. After that he has to rely on his teammates go drive him in. If player A had a .500 OBP but 0 runs scroed because the guys batting behind him never got hits, would you say player A is bad? No, he gets on base 50% of the time.
It the same reason why RBIs are a bad measuring stick. Player B could hit doubles everytime he gets to bat, but have no RBIs because the guys in front of him never get on base…
Gomez will score more because he steals himself into scoring position.
And as a supreme stealing threat he creates disarray, which helps the batter following him.
Mauer doesn’t need such help, especially if he surges this year (which is the way it looks).
Yeah, Mauer should have been in the 2 hole last year. But it’s looking like he should be hitting 3rd this year.
Buscher- OBP .258 BA .148 E- (0)
Punto—-OBP .250 BA .172 E- (1)
Everett–OBP .267 BA .241 E- (1)
Harris—OBP .222 BA .176 E- (1)
Tolbert–OBP .357 BA .308 E- (0)
Should Tolbert really not make the team?
Mark,
“ALL a player can control is getting on base, which OBP measures”
If a player steals 2nd and 3rd and scores on an out, (ala Gomez)is that not something controlled by the player?
IMO a great baserunner can score runs with LESS help from teammates.
A slow baserunner with a .340 OBP who requires three hits to score him is not the run scoring threat that Gomez would be with a .310 OBP, but scores on two SB and an infield out.
On Runs vs. OBP .. lets say you have two guys and 2 outs with no one on.
Player A is on 4/10 times but never steals .. to get him home, we need from our next hitter:
a double to MAYBE score
a triple or home run
Player B is on 3/10 times, but steals a base 2/3 of the times he is on
then, we only need a single to score
Isn’t Player B a much better option to increase the likelihood of the team scoring?
Say there is less than 2 outs, Player B still has the advantage as to get Player A home we need more hits or we need to move him over via a sacrfice out.
Mark, that’s a pretty weak arguement. You’re taking the statistical anomoly and making it sound like it’ll happen all the time. In the REAL WORLD if Player B hits a double every time he has an at bat he will have several hundered RBIs.
Sane, the argument isn’t about players with a small difference in OBP, but in large differences. It doesn’t matter that Punto is faster than Morneau, Morneau will always produce more runs scored (for others and himself) because he has a higher OBP, and higher slugging percentage. Speed is not the sole determining factor, as some above were stating. The argument above was that runs scored was a better predictor of a player’s value than OBP (and I’m assuming OPS), which is just patently not true.
Robert it’s not that i totally disagree with what your saying but this ” The last thing we need is a Manny Ramirez on our team.” I couldn’t disagree with you more on that comment i would love to pencil Manny in as our cleanup hitter one of the best clutch hitters i’ve ever seen. In my book it’s ok to talk the talk if you can walk the walk.
Todd, nope, the guy that gets on 133% more often than the guy with more speed makes it more likely the team will score, merely because he is signficantly more likely to be on base.
The statistics involved are multipliers, not addition. So, differences between OBP of .400 vs .300 are hugely significant in terms of runs scored over 500+ ABs. Huge. Huge difference in runs produced. Not even close.
The Gomez,Umber,Mulvey & Guerra trade sure looks Great!! For 2008,09,10,11 and beyond
Tolbert has mostly hit against the other team’s AAA pitchers. I’d be very interested to see if he can hit over .300 against major league pitching.
I think the biggest picture is being completely missed on. And that is the incredible talent that Carlos Gomez is. He looks to be a game-changer. Not taking anything away from Span (I honestly believe he HAS earned CF), but Gomez can do more with less. It’s sad that we cannot have both of these players playing and learning at the major league level.
The sad thing is, one of them (probably Span) will eventually have to go. And eventually will be with another team.
BenD,
agreed. Another thing that you might want to take into consideration is that Harris had awful springs every year. Last spring he had a .238 BA with .305 OBP and he went ahead a had a good season whereas with Punto what you see in the spring is what you get the year (last year he had a .206 BA, the year before .358). So, Tolbert should be north, Buscher in AAA and Punto home, but they will never make that decision…
let him stay in the bigs as long as he stays glued to cuddyer and learns to be a bit more humble
I don’t mind Gomez’s talk thus far provided he can back it up with his play.
Also, though he’s frequently boasted of how fast he is…he at least realizes what role that speed serves on the team.
He knows his job is to get on base and cause havoc so that the guys behind him (who’s names he now knows) can knock him in easier.
His speech a few days ago about how he gets in the pitcher’s head seemed more like “I’m fast. So I can get into position for Mauer and Morneau to hit me in” vs. “I’m fast. So I do it all myeslf.”
Not to mention I love watching his attitude when he does one his slides into home. He just sorta springs up and starts towards the dugout like “I’ve been here before, I’ll be here again.” None of that pointing to the sky or making signs of the cross.
Get up, get on, get home, sit down.
Just keep him around Cuddy so he nevers loses the “my role on the team” view regarding his speed.
Don’t forget that we’re not just talking about a good base stealer here, we’re talking Maury Wills/Ricky Henderson…..someone in the 100 steals area.
And don’t forget that teammates can get inspired and excited just like us fans. A Gomez can instill higher ouput from the whole team.
Yeah, Mauer should have been in the 2 hole last year. But it’s looking like he should be hitting 3rd this year.
Now the the Twins have both Young and Cuddy, Mauer will be just fine batting second. Young/Morneau/Cuddy makes a power threat that could last for quite a while.
Mike Lamb OPB:
ST2008 .435
2007 .366
2006 .361
Lifetime .339 (MLB)
Leadoff hitter?
I don’t think so.
How many people here thing Span will have an OBP of .400 this year? I thought so. His OBP the last three seasons is .355, .340, .324. Ignoring those results and banking on 40 spring training plate appearences with an OBP over .400 is exceedingly foolish.
Also, OBP is not the only thing that matters in runs scored. Let’s say Gomez has an OBP of .350 and an SLG of .450. Suppose Span has an OBP of .400 and a SLG of .350. Who would you rather have? I’d rather have the higher OPS. But that’s just me.
I was obviously exagerating to make my point… but the point stands that both runs scored and RBI depend greatly on others in the line up. Thats all I was trynig to say.
And as for Gomez stealing BOTH 2nd and 3rd when he is on base… in reality this won’t be happening more than a handful of times a year. Also, the number of stolen bases a player has is less important then his percentage. If a player isn’t succesful more than 75% of the time, he is actually costing his team runs.
Everything aside, I am not doubting that Gomez will steal bases and score runs… but if he has a sub .350 OBP, and Span/Pridie can have an OBP over .400 (just saying if, not saying they will) then Gomez should spend some time in AAA.
Also on Tolbert… Lets not get crazy looking into SP numbers… there is a reason he is in his later 20’s and has not been in MLB. Not saying he should not get a chance, but I wouldn’t be syaing he is an MLB caliber hitter b/c of SP numbers when his full season minor league number haven’t shown he is
Right on, T. Gomez looks like he’s locked in to a good mentality for a base stealer.
And I agree with you at 12:42, with a little help from thrylos at 1:58. Harris has me way down, and I was ready to start turning him into this year’s LNP on the blogs.
But he’ll probably be starting, so let’s see what he does.
“the guy that gets on 133% more often than the guy with more speed makes it more likely the team will score, merely because he is signficantly more likely to be on base”
Yes and no… a faster runner on the first base would go to third with a single or score with a double easier and more importantly avoid the double play easier. A higher OBP guy would be on base more often but he will score less often once there, compared to a faster runner. Interesting to have a look at the numbers from the Wade Boggs as a leadoff man a few years ago…
in the 1996 Yankees, Boggs as the leadoff man with .389 OBP scored 80 runs, in the 1997 Yankees, Jeter as the leadoff man with .370 OBP scored 116 runs (that’s 30 more) and is pretty significant in similar teams…
When the league discovers that Span is drawing a lot of walks (6BB in 31AB) for a .267 AAA hitter, they will stop pitching him on the corners.
He will be then forced to HIT his way on.
Maybe he will, but if not, his OBP will drop dramatically.
The other thing about a base stealer like Gomez is that it actually you get a better slugging percentage guy: if he steals 41% of every time he is on first base (like he did last year), is like having a 2B (or a 3B) every other time he gets a single… This counts for a lot, esp. with someone like Mauer after him.
another tidbit for mike. a guy with a high on base % but with zero power (aka Denard Span this spring), will be on 1st most of the time when he gets on(singles, walks). things like getting caught in the middle of a double play ball will happen and he never gets a chance to score. Gomez’s 10 R to Spans 6 with a .180 difference in OBP tells me gomez hardly ever lets those things happen to stop him from getting a chance to score.
Another interesting stat to back our argument:
Gomez: 43 plate appearances, 10 runs, .23% scoring percentage.
reached base 12 times, 10 runs, .83% scoring percentage when he gets on.
Span: 37 plate appearances, 6 runs, .16 scoring percentage. reached base 15 times, 6 runs, .40% scoring percentage when he gets on.
I think those are some pretty telling #’s in Gomez’s favor….
Disecting spring training numbers this much is foolish… The sample size is way too small, the difference in the quality of pitchers that one can face in a ST game is huge…
Once again, I’m not saying that their spring perfromance should not be taken into consideration… just saying that the true numbers can be extremely deceiving.
Same as writing off Harris for having a bad spring… There is no way the Twins had enough confidance to trade for him, and then not give me a chance b/c of a sub par spring. As they shouldn’t.
T, Cuddy has only had one good/excellent year…in 06. Don’t know if he can hold down the 3 or 5 hole.
If Mauer is able to pull the ball this year as is being reported, and if he flirts with .400 again, he might become more ideal batting 3rd.
How can anyone get excited/depressed about 40 AB in ST games against split squads and non major league lineups? You can’t extrapolate these stats out over a full MLB season. If Morneaeu has a poor spring, do we send him to AAA in favor of Jones? Relax and enjoy ST. If we bloggers were right as often as we think we are, every MLB team would be hot to hire us as their managers and GMs!
Robert, Shameless did not say Santana is black; All he said was that Santana is not white. The “black man can’t get a fair trial” thing was an example of discrimination, not an indicator that the players he mentioned are both black.
I don’t think I agree with the “racist” assessment. I’m not saying ol’ Carl is or isn’t racist… I just think he likes to get a good business deal. Santana got a record contract as a dude who plays every five days, and Torii got way more than makes sense financially. I think someone who is a billionaire is first and foremost a businessman.
Tolbert is 25
Tolbert will be 26 in early May… that is by no means young for a minor league hitter. A hitter’s prime usualy comes at 27, so if he hasn’t shown great promise yet, it is less likey to present itself later on and be useful for a long time.
My whole point was Tolbert is what he is… no matter if he hit .200 in ST or .500.
Tolbert had 7 triples, 24 doubles, 6 homeruns, 50+ RBI’s and batted .293 in 121 games last year in triple a. I didn’t think those numbers were to bad.
The Old man Tolbert must still must have a little juice to leg out 7 triples ey Mark
I don’t see why you all seem to be thinking that I am saying Tolbert is a terrible baseball player.
I have made two points so far today on this board:
1. RBI and runs scored are very dependant on others in the lineup, so looking at more indivdually based stats are better when comparing players.
2. Spring Training numbers should be taken with a grain of salt, as the sample size is too small and range of pitcher skills is large.
2a. Regarding Tolbert. It is a fact that hitters tend to peak around 27. So, having Tolbert’s AAA numbers as a 25 year old is not over impreesive. Not many 25 year olds that end up having meaningful MLB career are in AAA at 25. At that point, they are in the Show.
Ben D, Tolbert was hitting about .340 last year when Punto was permanently in the tank. Lots of people wanted Tolbert for a try at 3B.
But Gardy said he wasn’t ready for the bigs. Now Gardy says he can play regularly in the bigs.
I’m for him as the 25th man.
And if Gomez continues to prove he’s altered his swing, I’m for in CF.
I feel bad for Span. He’s doing okay and is about to have a big disappointment.
The agony of defeat.
Hope the Twins can trade him so he can find a home.
Mauer gets too much love in MN because he was born and raised here, not because of the color of his skin.
College players who start in High Rookie (Elizabethton) at 22 and get one promotion each year reach MLB at 27.
College hitters that end up having long MLB careers tend to leave after 3, and even if they stay for 4 they certainly move up faster than one promotion per year. Unless they are blocked and stall in AAA like Ryan Howard did because of Jim Thome. Who was Tolbert blocked by…. Punto?
I am not trying to argue… look it up. Or just look at the age of everyday player and their service time.
Ok, lets bring up the best hitter in baseball who was in MLB at 19 during a conversation about Matt Tolbert… makes a lot of sense
A-Rod the best hitter in baseball will turn 33 in July and didnt he sign a ten year deal. What the Hell were the Yankees thinking u should call and give them your stats
That last one was in responce to Gary S’s comment at 2:56… I have how my comment got before his as I wrote that after I read his post
Not just A-Rod Hundreds of players starting in majors that are over 30 years old
OK, now look at when they began playing in the major full time. I would bet that almost all of them were in the show before they were 26.
The ones that make it and play into their 30 are in MLB younger than 26 because they showed much earlier that they are major leaguers, and those who aren’t bounce up and down for a couple year and then are gone.
Mark, you are magic, you must be able to read minds!
Why would they invite a old ass like Tolbert to play in the futures game?
Gardy blocked him because he was paying Punto 2 million
T,
I second your loathing of Joe Buck. I blame his reaction to the moon as the reason for the Moss trade. If I ever saw him in an elevator like in the comercial, he’d be mine.
Robert,
Manny Ramirez is the difference between making the playoffs and winning a championship for the Twins teams the last 5 years. You are a moron. I guarantee you the guys he plays with in Boston love the guy. No one comes up bigger and his teams win. Thats what matters in a lockerroom
mark,
My bad!
Your argument is that Tolbert is not special and I agree with that.
Is he a better hitter than Punto or Everett?
He can be that but still not be special.
IMO Harris is a better hitter than all three.
Sane,
Yes. Harris should get a first look. And if that does not work out Tolbert can be a fine stop gap until we figure out a better long term option. By no means is he in the future plans as of now. He could prove that wrong if he gets a chance to play this year and shows differently, but we can’t look at his good spring numbers and say that he is going to be an All-Star. Thats all I was saying.
Nick Punto is the answer to nothing, I think we all know that
I hope Gardy is taking Harris under his wing and trying to make him a better 2nd baseman. This might be what’s happening. So maybe Harris isn’t focused on his hitting right now. And remember, he produced HR’s last year at a faster rate than D. Young.
And I’m thinking there’s some good Twins-training-camp influence going on with Lamb too. Joe C says he looks good defensively, so he could be adequate. And there’s that great upside offensively for him.
What has Span done other that have two alright weeks of ST to figure he is an OBP machine. The best hitters in the league barely reach .400 OBP and now Span and Pridie are being put there. So he’s gotten some walks against spring training pitching. Most guys are looking to get some rips in, not keep the bat on their shoulder
LNP, obviously you’re the moron since you didn’t get the point of my comment. I wasn’t talking about Manny’s skill you idiot, I was talking about his attitude. And actually you must know nothing about baseball because Manny is considered one of the worst teamates in the MLB. I guess I shouldn’t expect anything intelligent coming from a guy with the name LNP4Life though.
We are arguing over who is a better utility infielder! Unfortuately, on any other team, Harris, Punto, Everett, Tolbert, Lamb etc. would all be utility infielders. We are going to start 3 of these guys at 2B, SS and 3B. That’s scary!
I’d cut our new guys some slack, especially Gomez. They are in a new organization, when they got here they didn’t know anybody or even the way around the place. I’m sure it takes a couple weeks to get used to your new hitting coach and what he wants you to do. not to mention your new position coach, what your teammates are comfortable with, your manager and his style.
Ask the guys in Boston how he is as a teammate. Most guys would rather have a teammate who produces that Nick Punto types, great lockerroom guys who leave you short on the field.
inthejohn, Harris and Lamb are anything but utility infielders. Each not known for their defense, and each with good #’s on offense.
Actually I bet they would prefer a guy that produces like Manny but has the attitude of and LNP or Redmond. I guess a good example would be Morneau or Adrian Peterson or LaDanian Tomlinson.
I bet those guys in Boston value their World Series Title more that getting along with Manny all the time. I think about any one would but Robert. He would prefer everybody holds hands and sings kum by ya before and after games
Lamb is 30 and has never been a starter in the majors - always a backup because of his poor defense. Harris started last year for the first time with TB(a God awful team) due to injury, otherwise he has been a backup infielder too.
Robert, just what are these things that Manny does?? Do you have any examples, or just some hearsay about what might be going on??
And from what I understand, no one was more cocky than Morneau. Thats why he and Torii had their dust up. Bad reference there
All OBP is not created equal. OBP for a slow-footed player and OBP for a speedster, are two different things. One is a base clogger, if walked, the other tears around the bases and scores. No matter what Bill James tells you, those are the facts. Speed is a factor when considering the value of a players OBP.
on any other team, Harris, Punto, Everett, Tolbert, Lamb etc. would all be utility infielders.
If by “any other team” you mean the Yankees, I suppose you’re right. But lots of teams have worse infields than the Twins. You don’t have to look very far around the league to find a few guys at each position who are worse than the Twins starters.
I can’t judge how well they will be as starters, because except for Everett, none of them have been starters in the majors.
I suppose Robert also believes in Media distractions affecting guys on a team.
You’re right LNP, it’s too much to ask of atheletes, whom we pay millions of dollars, to conduct themselves as gentlemen. I know in my job, it wouldn’t matter how well I performed, if I behaved like an idiot, I would be fired.
Do you watch ESPN ever? Manny is always on there talking $#!^ about certain teamates and opponents. It’s well known that Manny is a bad teamate. Just because you didn’t know this doesn’t make it untrue.
I remember when atheletes were role models, now in most sports, they are anything but. Actually Torii and Morneau got into that fight before Morneau had his breakout season. You don’t see Morneau posing after homeruns.
Then you should be able to provide me some quotes of Manny trashing his teammates. Should be and easy google search, lets see you post some.
lets get batista back
Joe C. you are seriously scaring me with opening with yet another hint that Punto could be our Opening Day 2B. What on Earth is that all about? Behind the plate seats are now $50 for the first time, yet the team is minus Torii, minus Johan, but we still get Punto in the starting 9. Say it aint so, Joe!
On Mike Lamb’s fielding: look, it couldn’t be any worse than that of Tony Bautista, who we were once prepared to start at 3B!
except for Everett, none of them have been starters in the majors.
Not true either. Harris started most of last year. Punto started most of the last two years. Lamb has been a bench player, but he has played in 125 games each of the last three years. That’s more of a platoon player than a typical bench player.
LNP, here’s an article for ya:
lets get back batista and have him and mike lamb switch off during the year at 3rd
Manny Ramirez:
Oh yeah you know I’m back, I guess people want me to come back and my main focus is baseball right now and trying to help this team win and let me get this straight, I don’t want no questions about the trade rumors about the winter this and that. You guys want to talk about baseball or whatever, you know I’m open to talk. We could talk all day.
“I’m here. I don’t live in the past, I live in the present and that’s it. This (is) a new year, I’m here. People want me to come back. People want me here so we’re just gonna move on. I’m just gonna come, do my job, I get paid to play baseball. That’s (why) I’m here. That’s it. What else can I say?”
What makes you happy to be back?:
“The guys. David, Julian, all those guys that I’ve know them for a long time. They always got my back. They know what kind of person I am. It’s fun having those guys around me and when you come for the first time they give a smile and they know that they [are] happy to see me.”
You said whether you like it or not, you’ll perform:
“Hey that’s me. That’s me, you know. Like I said I get paid to play baseball even if I like it or not I still gotta go and perform.”
Is there something that you’re not so keen on?:
“I’m fine, I’m fine. I’m here. I guess a lot of people want me to be back and that’s [why] I’m here.”
On Boston:
“I ain’t got no problem in Boston, I especially like the attention. I know that I’m one of the top guys in this game and all the attention is on me, I got a lot of people on my shoulder but I’m human. I like to go. I like to have fun. I like to do this and that but I gotta represent Boston and the Red Sox in every way that I do outside this game. … Like I said I get paid to play baseball no [matter] where I go to play I still gotta go and perform even if I like it or not.”
Yeah, what a prick
Please leave a comment
Inthejohn,
Lamb had 493 AB for Rangers in 2000.
Harris was the starting SS most of last year for the Rays.
Punto 2006 3B for the Twins.
They have been MLB starters
i think we should really keep Bass at the major league level
Analyzing spring training numbers is like declaring global warming based on 100 years of weather statistics.
LNP, you slay me man. haha. Keep trying…
Still no quotes there from Manny bashing guys. This is no different than Joe Mauer not playing hurt. Come on man, gotta do better than that.
we should see if rocky biddle is around also to try out cause we both went to the same schools and played alot of ball on the same teams almost all of my life
how about john grabow
I am seriously calling Joe Christenson and every other Twins writer out on this Punto thing…I know you guys are just reporting what’s going on, but why are we accepting the fact that Nick Punto not only is in the running for the starting 2B job, but that he is the defacto Lead Dog because of his sheer grit and determination…”time for somebody to step up over the next week”
Are you telling me that if Punto cranks out a couple more seeing-eye singles and actually gets a bunt or two down in the next week that he will be our 2B on Opening Day???
I support Gardy but that concept absolutely baffles me…
Lamb played a lot in 2000 due to injury, otherwise always a back up. Harris played last year due to injury. If you are classifying Punto as a starting quality player there is no point in going on. My point is that we will be starting 3 players in our infield who haven’t proved they are MLB starters and we have a starting pitching staff that is filled with young guys and one broken down vet. We will need luck to break 70 wins. Sorry
imagine the vikes with “ocho cinco”
I’d take Manny Ramirez on the Twins. I don’t think he’s that big of a clubhouse cancer. I recall him stirring things up about wanting to be traded to New York at one time but other than that nothing major. He’s known as being kind of a space case but that’s nothing I’d worry over.
Hunter seems just as controversial and we did find with him on the team. We need offense and I’ll take it anywhere. We couldn’t win 2-1 games with Santana last year, not seeing how it would happen this time around.
That Gordon Edes who wrote the article on Manny not playing hurt also wrote one decrying Manny’s “It’s just baseball” quote. A lot of Red Sox player say that inspired them to come back and beat the Indians and win the World Series.
night thief with our pitching staff you have nothing to worry about because the games will not be 2-1
night thief you have nothing to worry about because with our pitching staff the games will not be 2-1 I guarantee
If the RedSox can win with a cancer like Manny, maybe more teams need one. Is Carl Everett available, or maybe Milton Bradley.
lnp4life how about second round of Brett Boone
Your right Jimmy bee. They are likely to be 7-3 losses instead of 2-1 losses
Yes, the Red Sox are lucky to win in spite of Manny
kyle lohse, tony batista
LNP4LIFE I used to play alot of ball with a nut job named Rocky Biddle
I agree LNP i can best describe players attitudes this way Gregg Loyd once wore a hirt to Steelers training camp that said “I’m not paid for my disposition” I couldn’t agree more the Twins are not running a fraternity here and i could care less if the guys get a long or are good guys or bad guys they are all getting paid well for what they do and if bad guys do it better then the nice guys i say bye bye nice guy.
inthejohn your being to kind you forgot about the nights when boof and livan pitch
The Twins will have Kubel off the bench to pinch hit for Everett, so Buscher and Jones aren’t needed. Tolbert will likely come in to play short, when Everett is remover for a pinch hitter. Kubel will start some days against tough right hand hitters, but Monroe will be the regular DH.
Punto will start at 2B. Harris will play there some, and also platoon some with Lamb. The reserves will be Kubel, Tolbert, Redmond, and Tolbert. They will all play a lot, because the Twins will carry 12 pitchers and only the four reserves.
This is my prediction based on how Gardy has played his players in the past.
Mark,
Right on everything that I have heard about Gomez, which is little, its hard to stay up to date this off-season with work and freshman year, is that he tries to swing for the fences a lot. Not cool. He was wheels he needs to hit the ball on the ground and leg them out. Being fast does no good if you can’t get to first!
Ohh,
I like that, all attitude and no production
Craig can you refer to your opinions as if you are talking in the second person cause it would be bad arse
“The reserves will be Kubel, Tolbert, Redmond, and Tolbert.”
Add Harris and subtract one Tolbert.
Personally I think we need to look outside of the numbers of OBP and runs and steals etc. and consider some other things in this CF race. Say it’s the 8th inning and we’re down by one, Harris is at 2nd and Everett at 1st with no outs, and our leadoff man is coming up(Span or Gogo). Who do you want at the plate to get the guys over for Mauer in the 2-hole? Me, I would want Span there, he is better at doing the little things that will help this team win games. I will easily admit that Gomez is the better talent, but Span gives us our best chance to win this year. Just remember, the lead-off man only is guaranteed one lead-off at-bat in a game…he also has to know how to hit situationally.
My point is that we will be starting 3 players in our infield who haven’t proved they are MLB starters
Wrong again. Everett is a proven starter for four years.
My point is that we will be starting 3 players in our infield who haven’t proved they are MLB starters
The last time the Twins failed to crack 70 wins was 1999. Comparing this team to the 98-99 Twins is about as wrong headed as it gets. The Twins will have eight starters and two bench players that are better than any player on the 98-99 Twins. Outside of Radke, the Twins will have 10 pitchers who are better than any pitcher on those teams.
Try putting Gomez in the 9 spot and then also someone quick in the leadoff spot so at some point in the game if you start the order in the 9 then it would be like you had 2 leadoff hitters to leadoff before baby jesus is up
Wow, lots of posts.
I actually mentioned OPS in one of my posts. Clearly slugging percentage is important. I also don’t think 40 ABs in ST tells us much about either Gomez or Span - I think the last 2 years in the minors tells us a lot more.
I was arguing with those that said runs scored is more important than OBP (or OPS) in predicting a player’s value.
I actually think it likely that Gomez has a higher OBP and almost guarantee a higher OPS than Span would. I don’t think these ST at bats tell us a lot at this point (statistically speaking).
In my experience of listening to professional athletes talk, they want teammates that help them win, period.
I think if Manny did go to the HOF it would be with Cleveland because I think he liked it there much better he also started his career there and He is always ticked at Boston management. Most people go in with the team they started with
I’m sure the Red Sox will just hate it when Manny goes into the Hall of Fame with a Red Sox hat on. He’ll be a first-ballot HOFer. Economics aside, every team in baseball would love to have his headaches in the clubhouse if they can have his bat in the order.
Before we jump to the conclusion that Gomez can’t situational hit, look at this. I posted it yesterday, but will post it agian.
LNP4Life says:
March 18th, 2008 at 9:40 am
Found this on Gomez from metspropectus.com:
In 2006 The Mets pushed Gomez to AA skipping A+ completely, and at first it didn’t look good early on. Carlos Gomez had a horrible first half which included an April where he hit .205, a May where he hit .219 and a June in which he hit .250. But towards the end of June Gomez hit a hot streak as he did a 360 in July hitting .406 and an August where he hit .294. Gomez ended the year hitting a .281 with 41 SB but more impressively his numbers in the clutch.
As Hit .421 (40-95) with men in scoring position, hit .341 (15-44) with runners in scoring position and two outs and was 56-171 (.327) with runners on base.
Gomez during the year Had 34 multiple-hit games on the year.
As far as the reserves, I think the best option would be to have Redmond, Punto, Pridie, and Monroe. Harris is going to be the everyday 2B. My reasoning is that Pridie and Monroe(or Kubel) will be PHing regularly for Everett and the CF late in games. Pridie can take over in CF and Punto is there to take over as SS. Monroe can play CF if needed, but will not be needed much, although he has played some at first, no? He could give Morneau a day off here and there. When we get our pitcher situation figured out, we send down the 12th pitcher, and bring up Buscher Tolbert/Macri/Casilla…whomever is performing the best.
It looks to me that after struggling the first month at a new stop. He made the adjustments and started hitting. He did this last year at the Mets too. Started bad his first month and then hit .299 in June before getting hurt.
I’d give these numbers more credednce than some numbers from 3 weeks of ST.
Gomez will be something special for many years to come. He is almost like a product of the Marlins the way they just spring up these great ball players constantly. Even though we got him from the Mets
Yes!!! that is totally hillarious thank you. I had a rough day at work
I love that Craig. makes you sound like you know what you’re talking about and much more important
LNP, do you understand what I meant by ’situational’ hitting? What I meant was, Gomez will be expected to do things like sacrifice bunt, hit behind runners, hit sac flies. Sure he had really nice numbers with RISP. in the minors, but he’s not going to be asked to be a slugger if he plays in Minnesota this year….maybe down the line a few years he would be a great #6 hitter or #2 even, but not this year. I’m talking about little things, not hitting clutch doubles…I’m talking about advancing runners, sacrificing…and I just don’t trust Gomez with that at this point in his career.
jimmybee say’s Thank You
jimmy bee,
Do you mean in the third person, such as, Craig loves Morneau and Craig is not saying anything more about Morneau’s, base-running. Furthermore, Craig is not saying anything more about Morneau’s fielding. Craig is making no comments about Morneau’s speed. You won’t hear another word about how Morneau hits lefthanders coming from Craig. That’s all Craig has to say, because Craig loves Morneau, and Craig knows all you guys love Morneau, almost as much as Craig does. You mean like that, jimmy?
what is going on here. I read that before i posted but…….?? Or maybe I have new profound psycic abilities. Or not. Lets try. Manny Ramirez will retire with the RBI record
Manny will retire with Cleveland and go to the HOF with them to
LNP,
I had to laugh at that statement. For Manny to get the RBI record he would need to play at least 7 more years.
Not happening.
craig is a legend in his own mind or two or three!
Brian F.
I hear you, but isn’t most situational hitting with guys on base??
I’m sure Gomez will have no problem getting bunts down better than last years guys. Plus Gomez. He was batting lead off for the AA team, and I’m sure not all of his hits were clutch doubles withRISP. Some might have been hits to the right side. And why just move them over when you could drive them home yourself. Just because you move them over, doesn’t mean they score. Stringing together 3 hits to score one run doesn’t happen all the time
What encourages me the most is that he must have shown a good approach at the plate to bat that well. When guys are on base, he gets the ball in play, and gets hits more importantly. Big time players play their best in big time situations.
he needs 697 rbi’s
i know it’s a stretch, but manny might suprise people and play longer than you might think. He still hasn’t been confined to DH’ing. He could do that forever
Geno,
Now, don’t be judging Craig’s mind. Craig is just trying hard to be the new Craig. Craig wants everyone to be happy. Craig is done being the bad guy. Craig’s theme song was “Bad to The Bone”. Now Craig sings it as Good to the Bone. Guh, Guh, Guh, Good to the bone.
If any of you guys need your car started, or a lift to the airport, let Craig know. Craig will be there for you. Guh, Guh, Guh, Good to the bone.
Hands off Jimmy! Don’t touch Jimmy!!
I love that episode
George would never steal from the Yankees.
would you Craig
tolbert should be the starting shortstop or second baseman, cant keep this guy off the field, he’s to good
As far as those being Gomez’s AA numbers, it was the last time he played a whole year. last years 30 game AAA sample and his 50 games at MLB aren’t enough to make any judgements on.
It’s not situation hitting if no one is on base. If a guy has a risp ave. that is 60 points higher than his regualar average. I’d say he gets the ball in play. Isn’t that what you want.
And as far as Gomez’s attitude. The guy you don’t want is one who hits into the Fielders Choice and mopes in the batters box or flings the bat and doesn’t beat it out. Gomez must have been hauling it all the way. that equals winning attitude to me
Brian F: Let me get this straight.
You want the Twins to decide who their leadoff hitter is based on a situation that will occur MAYBE once or twice this season,
instead of basing that decision on,
the GUARANTEED 162 times–and in reality the 250-350 times it will actually happen–the Twins leadoff hitter will hit first in an inning.
Nice.
Gardy has some advice about fielding, throwing strikes and good AB’s.
I have a couple tips for gardy.
A. Punto needs to be utility or cut him
B. Gomez is starting in CF because he is going to have more potential and I want to see him excite MN Twins fans.
C. Let the young guys play.
I dont want to be .500 and have all these guys in AAA. I want to see young talent and who knows these young talented, hustling guys may be better than what everyone expected. Did any of these brain trusts have Colorado going to World Series last year. Have good night
Umm…no, USAFChief, I want the Twins to have a lead-off hitter, more importantly, a center fielder who will help us WIN this year. You have to be able to do the little things in baseball in order to win. The fact is, Span is more than a better situational hitter right now, he would also be a better lead-off hitter as well. If you want to look at raw numbers from spring, there are some that stand out to me in regard to what we want from the lead-off spot. The biggest one to me is their ground outs/Fly outs ratio. Span has 19 ground outs to 2 fly outs, Gogo has 17go to 10ao, which means that Span, when he does get out, is putting the ball on the ground like he is supposed to be doing. In 5 fewer plate appearances he has seen 4 more pitches, which means he is working the count more than Gogo, which a lead-off hitter is supposed to do. Span’s OPS is .110 higher, and while they Gogo has 8 steals to Span’s 3, neither of them has been caught…which means Span has the capability to steal bases. The bottom line here is, Span is a lead-off hitter, Gomez is a middle of the order hitter. We need a lead-off hitter, not a slugging prospect trying to hit lead-off.
I don’t want you guys to get me wrong, I believe in Gomez wholeheartedly. I am very very excited to have him in our lineup, maybe this year. I just think he would be better suited in the 7 or 8 hole this season. Now if Gardy and the gang think that someone like Harris or Punto, or Everett can handle the lead-off spot, then I would be fine with keeping Gogo and batting him 7th or 8th after Kubel and Lamb…otherwise, I would much much much rather see Span if we are going to put our CF in the lead-off spot.
Go-Go hit the ball, Go-Go run the bases, Go-Go make the team! Go Go-Go.
Gomez is an aggressive hitter who attacks early in the count. He fits the profile of the Twins. Young,Cuddyer and Morneau are the same type of hitter, as was Hunter, J Jones, Kirby, Gaetti, Chili, Bruno. It’s the way they play, hitting fastballs early in the count. the Twins aren’t asking Gomez to work the count and draw walks, Gardy has said as much himself. They want him to get his hacks in. Lets see what he has before confining him into a Juan Pierre role. Soriano lite with D would be great.
We mostly all agree that Span is probably behind Gomez in the chase for CF. He will then be blocked for years to come from Gomez and Revere.
With the White Sox putting Juan Uribe (still only 29) on waivers today, and in need of a CF how about a package deal of Span and Punto ($2.4 million salary) for Juan Uribe ($4.5 million) and cash.
Uribe career fielding #s
2b: .984
SS: .975
Punto career fielding #’s
2B: .978
SS: .979
Career averages are quite similar
.245/.314/.321
.254/.295/.427
but the power Uribe generates is significantly greater than Punto’s.
Any thoughts?
Span also knows what he needs to do to impress. He can’t match Gomez in power, speed, arm. His only chance is to work the count and show off his eye. It’s the only way to make this team. He has never really shown this before, so who knows if it will last. He had 25 BB in 487 plate appearances last year. He is just doing what is best for him, MLB pitchers aren’t going to be walking him, they are going to challenge him. Can he hold up to MLB pitching working behind in counts, working it like Joe. I don’t trust Span for that.
Ozzie would love a pirahna like Punto. He would put him out there to shame the players who were doggin it. Uribe is a decent player. I doubt the Sox are lookin to deal in the division, though
The Twins infield is just three career backups and Morneau.
Backups can’t play.
Lou Gehrig was just a backup first baseman who wouldn’t even have played if Wally Pipp had stayed healthy.
Backups can’t play.
Just ask Wally Pipp who took a day off, then watched Gehrig (his backup) play the next 14 years.
does anyone else here have a dislike for Kenny Williams. And how about those Sox announcers on TV, just rediculous listening to them. thats not how you spell ridiculous. Boo White Sox, thats what I say.
Except for Ozzie, I love the guy, he would be a great Twins coach after he gets run out of Chicago. If Gardy could stand him.
love it sy. Adrian Gonzalez never got a chance to play until the Padres got him and he’s taken off. Look at the trade they used to get him.
January 6, 2006: Traded by the Texas Rangers with Terrmel Sledge and Chris Young to the San Diego Padres for Adam Eaton, Akinori Otsuka, and Billy Killian (minors).
How’s that working for the Rangers. They make some terrible moves
When Ulger goes, I’d rather have Molitor.
Gotta like Gonzalez, he’s on my fantasy team.
he’d be great, definatly
If Harris came in here thinking the job was his at 2nd, he doesn’t know Gardy.
Everett would make a good backup SS.
I hope Tolbert platoons at 3B and starts at SS a lot this year. After all, Gardy says he’s ready to hold down a permanent position with someone now.
The only problem with Everett at backup is his terrible bat. He’d only be a D replacement or pinch runner, that’s what Punto is for. Can’t carry too many of those guys, thats what has hurt us in the past.
If no one in the Harris, Everett, Lamb, Punto bunch is hitting come the end of May Tolbert or Casilla will get a look. If Tolbert doesn’t make it.
Tolbert would be best served getting regular at bats in AAA, with Gardy telling him be ready
Looks like Tolbert could be ready now. If that’s still the case in a week, I hope he platoons with Lamb regarding the L/R pitcher thing. That would leave Lamb on the bench. So no bench loss there.
And I had already thought about the Punto duplication thing, LNP4Life, when Tolbert starts at SS.
But the assumption at 2B is that it’s okay to sacrifice a good amount of defense (Punto) if you can get a pretty good increase of offense (Harris).
So why not the same thing at SS? Assuming Tolbert is significantly better offensively than Everett, he’s surely not as much defensive loss as Harris is at 2B. So it makes more sense than the thinking at 2B, right!?
Gotta play your best players. If Gardy thinks Tolbert can hold a starting position, then he should start.
And when he starts at SS, it gives the bench an extra pinchrunner (for Lamb or Mauer) without putting the bench in jeopary for a long extra-inning game.
And I can’t imagine anyone really who Tolbert would pinch hit for, except for Everett himself! And I don’t know if he’s that good a pinch hitter.
So what good is he on the bench? (Assuming he continues to impress for the next week.)
BTW, La Velle’s new post has a kind word or two about Craig.
Go Twins!
Yeah, Jerry, I got a thought. While you want to trade two players for Juan Uribe, according to MLB Trade Rumors, the Twinks can pick him up off waivers for a mere 4.5 million.
Bleh, why bother?
how about a package deal of Span and Punto
I don’t think there’s team out there at the moment that has a sincere interest in Punto.
It’s like how nobody “helped” the Angels by offering to trade for Matthews, Jr.
The Twins overjudged his standing during the 06 season and paid accordingly. Now they’re paying for it in a different way.
Punto at best is a utility guy and incredibly handy to cover any of three (maybe 4) positions should somebody need a day off.
romer,
Gardy is not in the habit of sacrificing defense for offense, especially at SS and especially-squared
at SS AND 2B.
And he is not the only MLB manager who feels that way.
They sympathize with young pitchers whose careers are on the line and whose infield can’t get the third out of the inning.
Didn’t Molitor pass on the hitting coach job when Vavre got it?
Molitor wants to be more than just a hitting coach, I think.
And Gardy is about to sacrifice defense if Harris starts.
romer,
“And Gardy is about to sacrifice defense if Harris starts.”
Agreed, but that makes it very unlikely that Tolbert beats out Everett at SS.
Tolbert’s chances are much better to play SS if Punto plays 2B.
To complete my incomplete thought.
Gardy won’t play TWO limited range middle infielders (Tolbert and Harris) at the same time.
That might give him flashbacks to Batista and Castro failing to cover the 5-6 hole in early 2006.
Now I get it, sane. Thanks.
romer,
Sorry that it took me three tries to get to the point.
Does anyone know when the next televised game is? Today??
Mike Cincotta,
Game today DIRECTV ch.647 at Noon CDT.
No FSN or Fox huh?
anybody with me on hoping tolbert makes this team and buscher goes back to AAA, i feel he is coming on strong and looks good for the future..starting at one of these infield positions….
Tolbert just booted a grounder that Everett and Punto would seldom boot.
tolbert just made up for it with a big play on defense too
i mean just made snother big play on defense, this kid’s impressive
Tolbert has never been in the Twins top 30 prospects (Baseball America) and his best year was a .293 6-53 with 11 SB season last year at AAA.
That doesn’t mean he won’t make the team ahead of Buscher, but excuse me if I restrain my excitement while he hits .250 in ST.
