Deeds traded to Cubs to complete Monroe trade
Posted on April 11th, 2008 – 10:30 AMBy Joe Christensen
Jim Mandelaro, of the Rochester Democrat and Chronicle, is reporting that the Twins have sent Class AAA outfielder Doug Deeds to the Cubs as the player to be named in the Craig Monroe trade. From Jim’s Extra Bases blog:
Deeds is a career .291 hitter who batted just .243 in 86 games for Rochester last season. He was destined to be another spare part this year with the Wings, and the Twins decided to give him a new lease on life elsewhere.
212 Responses to "Deeds traded to Cubs to complete Monroe trade"
cant we just give them monroe back?
I agree reality. Why a AAA player with the way Monroe is playing?
Deeds doesn’t figure into their future, at all, so it isn’t a loss, but I’d have preferred to send Monroe back as the palyer to be names, and call up Ruiz. Alas, that is not to be.
I’m suprised no one said to send Punto back as the player to be named later.
Watch out, Mr. Deeds is very Sneaky Sneaky.
On a Serious note, everybody deserves a a chance to succeed but Jason Kubel proved at the end of last year and the begining of this year he deserves the starting DH spot. He has had a better first 600 ABs than Hunter and Morneau.
um, you would really rather have a AAA outfielder who will never sniff the MLB for the twins than a guy who’s already had good success there and is still only 30 years old?
and since we acquired monroe through a TRADE, we couldn’t send him back as the player, I hope you fools realize this…
and Randy Ruiz? really? really? ya, he had a nice spring training, but so do a lot of guys you don’t expect too, take a look around the majors, theres a ‘Ruiz’ type on every team, and by the way, hes 30 years old right now too, and has spent his ENTIRE career in the minor leagues, I have to think there is a reason for this, as in, HE’S NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR MLB BALL.
its frickin not even 10 games into a 162 game season, and you guys are already calling for peoples heads, well I hate to reiterate this again to you idiots, BUT, this team is not going to the playoffs this year, and a guy like Ruiz is not going to all of the sudden turn them into contenders. Monroe only has 15 ABs for christ sake.
Miguel Cabrera is hitting .138, David Ortiz is hitting .083, do you think people in Detroit and Boston are calling for their heads and saying they should be sent to AAA?
Fact is, Monroe is a needed veteran presence on a very young team, you seem to be forgetting that we have 2 22 year old outfielders who are going to have their struggles, give it some time, Monroe will prove his worth to this team as a DH and OF fill in, and get off your rockers…
If I see anymore Boof light and anymore snow I will move to Florida and blog you guys from there. Actually I have had enough Crap weather and I will be moving there at the end of October. My wife has already said no one would see me during spring training I would just go see whichever games I wanted to see everyday
keep what teams other then the twins play in Tampa area as well
Keep why so angry it’s Friday brother. Seriously though your right Ruiz=Crash Davis and the only way he’ll see time in the majors is if our whole OF goes on the DL along with Morneau and Lamb.
Ah, Krash, Do not underestimate the sneakiness!!!
Is Tampa Bay’s Stadium as ugly as the HHH Metrodome
Anyway, I liked Deeds. He had a very good 2005 season at AA and then had to repeat the level. He does a little of everything without doing anything great. Hits for OK average, with decent on-base skills and some power. Plays a couple of positions (RF/1B) adequately. This is fair return for the PTBNL.
BC of ND says:
April 11th, 2008 at 11:01 am
I’m suprised no one said to send Punto back as the player to be named later.
I would rather get rid of Everett
sorry, I just have a problem with unrealistic fans who spew nonsense from their keyboards and evaluate a guy on 1/20 of the baseball season.
example of why this is stupid: Everyone loves Kubel right now and deservedly so, lets hope he keeps it up develops into that big time hitter he was meant to be, but, if you look at last year, after the first week and for that matter the first half of the season, He would/should have been the guy in Monroes shoe’s on this blog right now, ie-> not producing and being talked about being sent down to AAA or how we should get rid of him. Well, I seem to remember he did extremely well the second half. Point is, you can’t judge a guy on a week and a half of the season, so quit trying.
It saddens me to see contributors to this discussion referred to as ‘idiots’ and ‘fools.’ Can’t you get your point across without personal attacks. Oh, yeah. ‘Moron’ is acceptable.
This is probably not the right place to whine about such things, but tonight’s game is not on TV. What crap. The game’s in KC for crying out loud.
lilbiscuit says:
April 11th, 2008 at 11:29 am
It saddens me to see contributors to this discussion referred to as ‘idiots’ and ‘fools.’ Can’t you get your point across without personal attacks
Then don’t read anything by Romer or Jama
and remember, the twins gave Tony Bautista and Juan Castro 2 months before they jettisoned them, and I believe Monroe is at least twice the player as either of them, so I’m guessing the twins would at least give him that long…
morons…(better?)
Insulting, but often accurate.
btw, ‘idiots’ and ‘fools’ is pretty lukewarm for here, and I have no problem saying those words because in my opinion of prior posts and threads it is the truth for many of the so called ‘fans’.
Don’t get me wrong, I love the eternal optimist fan, but I prefer to be more realistic, and the optimist tends to see good things in places where there isn’t any, ie-> Randy Ruiz, and I personally think a lot of them are idiots and think they know what they are talking about and could solve all the teams problems by doing these things.
If this was the case however, you would be working in a front office for a team as a GM because you’re so brilliant, and I’m 99.99999999999999999% sure none of you are.
lilbiscuit since it’s an election year i’m campaigning for a kinder and gentler blog as well.
Jimmy B be carefull about questioning Everett’s skills i got ripped for that already.
instead of saying ‘Get rid of Monroe’ etc… etc…, I would prefer these eternal optimists to say something along the lines of:
“I hope he turns it around and helps the team”
this does much more good for the team and its fans than talking about how bad a guy sux or whatever, I think they’re might be a few players on the twins who pay attention to the blogs, and I have to think they question some of your ‘fanhood’ for the things you say about them, I mean who wants to go out and play hard for fans that question their ability when they are the ones earning a living because they are exceptional Baseball players.
monroe certainly deserves some time to get in gear but i don’t think it is the end of the world to speculate on who might be available if he doesn’t.
looking back on his best yrs seem to be when he was playing with some possible juice users and more than a few players seemed to drop off drastically in 06 going into 07. this is of course only uninformed speculation and i am not accusing him of anything.
Again with everyone talking about injury prone Kubel. Everyone hopping on the Kubel wgon. I personally am having a contest to see who is out more with knee injuries this year Kubel or Mauer. Oh well that’s just me. Kubel has been hitting well especially after we are up by 5 runs. Watch him in the clutch when needed the most and see what happens to mighty Kubel
I hope we don’t have another rain out tonight because i think Keeps addiciton to Twins baseball will make him even more angry. j/k keep.
BC of ND thanks for the heads up regarding Everett
I agree with this move.
Monroe was a steal!!!
“Oh well that’s just me. Kubel has been hitting well especially after we are up by 5 runs” Jimmy I love that quote and it’s a perfect example of why stats are misleading. I would put A-Rod in the same category he’s agreat hitter off of weak pitchers. Manny and Ortiz on the other hand seem to deliver the big hits when there teams are down or tied. Don’t get me wrong i like Kubel but i’m still holding judgement on him untill i see more.
I want Monroe to do good for the Twins and Lamb looks great lately. I think I will rename Lamb Captain Double. I want to actually see more interview with Lamb. I love the way Lamb makes the sports caster nervous and uncomfortable while interviewing him
any word on the weather in KC today what are the chances it gets played
anyone know any chance of ordering the game on Comcast today and if so how much
none taken BC, I am addicted to baseball, and am extremely excited for my amatuer season to kickoff next weekend.
BC of ND
Yeah I’m sure non of A-Rods 53 bombs ment anything last year to the Yankees. Especially that walkoff grandslam to win by 1 he hit against the Tribe last year.
2008 Salaries:
3.82 mil - Monroe
2.8 mil - Everett
2.4 mil - Punto
___________________
9.02 mil - Total
All are free agents after the 2008 season.
craig - my thinking is none of them will be back either, that doesn’t mean they don’t serve a purpose on this years team however.
The New and Improved Craig says:
April 11th, 2008 at 12:00 pm
2008 Salaries:
3.82 mil - Monroe
2.8 mil - Everett
2.4 mil - Punto
___________________
9.02 mil - Total
All are free agents after the 2008 season.
When we get rid of these players salaries we will use the money to buy sod for the new field
Kubel’s grand slam came the THIRD time he was up with the bases loaded. How “clutch” was he the first two at-bats?
Keep,
You are right, none will be back.
I doubt if any of these guys (Monroe, Everett, Punto) really should be starters in the major leagues. It seems like an expensive bench, for a team with a 56-57 mil total player salary.
Jared do you want to bet on who has more walk of HR’s Ortiz or A-rod?
keeps,
monroe is worthless, he has been worthless for a couple years now. i really think that “real” fans would point that out cause they want to see there team succeed and not sign players that wont help the team at all. so keeps let me ask you a question……do you really care if the twins win or not?
Can I just coin a phrase “Kubes Rubes”
I am glad the Twins are rid of Doug Deeds. I will be even happier when they are rid of Craig Monroe.
reality says:
April 11th, 2008 at 12:15 pm
keeps,
monroe is worthless, he has been worthless for a couple years now
I just hope Monroe does well at DH. I think it would be great to have a guy who could hit in the clutch and not when we are up by 5 runs
The New and Improved Craig how about everett as well
Not unless you take A-Rod. I know who has more, but saying A-Rod only hits garbage pitching when the game over is an outlandish statement. A-Rod & Ortiz are the two best hitters in the game no matter who is on the mound.
reality - absolutely I care if the team wins or not, BUT, the fact is, this team is being built for the new stadium in 2010 and shouldn’t be EXPECTED to win loads of game this year like a lot bloggers want them too, and bringing up other guys like Ruiz, Buscher, Casilla for guys like Punto, Monroe, and Everett isn’t going to change anything, and you can’t run a team out there where 2/3’s of the lineup has virtually ZERO MLB experience, Veterans serve the purpose of mentoring the younger guys, if you’ve got a lineup of:
Gomez, CF
Mauer, C
Cuddyer, RF
Morneau, 1B
Young, LF
Kubel, DH
Buscher, 3B
Tolbert/Harris, 2B
Casilla, SS
that team would fall apart and take a long time to gel, too much youth and inexperience to be ready. I don’t expect the twins to make the playoffs, but I do expect them to be better than mediocre, and that team wouldn’t even aproach mediocrity.
Does anyone remember when Marty Cordova homered in like 6 straight games? I remember it was early in the season and i was thinking man this guys is the shizzle but then as the seaon wore on realty sunk in and my rube days ended that year.
BC of ND
So who are you going to cheer for in the Hockey National Championship? BC or ND?
Sorry I couldn’t resist.
oh yeah sorry we should keep him my bad. he is so clutch! 7 strikeouts in 15 at bats this year with a .133 avg
i apologize to everyone i didnt see these numbers until now. man this guy is so good!
jimmy bee,
The jury is still out on Everett, but only because TK likes him. He looks like Juan Castro to me, only not as good.
The only thing I remember about Marty Cordova was his Unibrow
Re Randy Ruiz:
Ruiz is the single best right hand power bat in the organization (and quite possible the only) right now until Delmon develops power.
We had a discussion here yesterday about how good a prospect Kubel was based on his minor. Take this line from Ruiz, a couple years ago:
344 AB, .349 BA, .405 OBP, .669 SGL, 1.074 OPS, 30HR, 87RBI
The reason why Ruiz did not get a chance in the majors is because he played for NL teams where there is no DH and was blocked by 1st basement named: Howard, Sean Casey, Ryan Klesko/Rich Aurilia and Adam LaRoche.
Free Randy Ruiz 
Reality,
You said it “15 at bats”
He could have 5 bombs after the next 15. That is what is great about baseball. Go watch the Lynx or something.
keeps,
i agree that teams need veterans to help young players. But dude were talking about monroe here, if are young hitters are taking advice from him on hitting than as a fan i am scared.
Lol Jama of course i was pulling for the Souix but they came up way short yesterday.
reality - the main thing you should take from your words in the 12:28 post are 15 AT-BATS, thats nothing, and no scout ever in their right mind would make an evaluation based on that. They could definitely say he’s struggling, I’m not arguing that, I’m just saying give him a chance and don’t be so quick to rush to judgement on a guy who’s only played in 5 games for a new team.
What if we had signed someone like Andruw Jones and he was struggling just as bad as Monroe, would you still be saying get rid of him?
monroe is a taller darker version of nick punto.
There have been lots of AAA sluggers who never hit in the bigs. There’s a BIG difference between AAA and the major leagues.
One of the biggest differences is that major league pitchers, generally can throw the curve and/or slider consistently for strikes.
With a three ball count, in AAA, the slugger usually gets the fast ball. With the same count, he doesn’t know what’s coming in the majors…. Strike three!
Make that strike three, with a full count
thrylos - i disagree vehimently with your thoughts on Ruiz.
The first season he ever even played in AAA was LAST YEAR, at age TWENTY NINE, and there are very few guys who hit for power in the minors but strikeout 1 out of every 4 CAREER at-bats there who have ever done anything at the MLB level, someone should look that up…
btw, ruiz has never hit 30 HRs in a full minor league season.
Best power bat from the right side in the twins system? probably. in the the top 10 hitters in the organization? nope.
Pitchers figured out Monroe a couple of years ago, and he couldn’t adjust. Vavra will work with him, but I’m not hopeful. Jim Leyland got rid of him for a reason.
monroe is worthless, he has been worthless for a couple years now
No. He was worthless last year. The season before that he was a machine if I recall correctly.
What if we had signed someone like Andruw Jones and he was struggling just as bad as Monroe, would you still be saying get rid of him?
Knowing a good number of posters around here…yes.
and its actually 1 K per 3.594444444 at bats, which is HORRIBLE.
How much really is Monroe making this year? I thought I read it was around 4.7 million.
I wouldn’t discount Ruiz. After all, how old was Torii Hunter when he finally figured out how to hit?
T - and that is what I have a problem with with a lot of said posters.
i would hate to be gardy when bill smith walked in and said. “well gardy we are going in a different direction we need veteran leadership! so what we are gonna do is not give hunter a new contract so we have room for craig monroe! we need this veteran leadership gardy cause i have decided to trade johan santana. he hasnt proven much for us so we might beable to get some youngens in here for him!”
I hate Ruiz, as a baseball player. I think the Twins liked Knott better than Ruiz. So did I, but not much better.
well, Torii made his MLB debut when he was 21, so I’d say about 9+ years before Ruiz, because he hasn’t been called up by anyone yet at age 30.
I know it’s early in the season, but Casilla needs to start producing. He batting .167 with 3 errors so far. He looks just as lost as he did last year, on the big club.
moron alert:
“i would hate to be gardy when bill smith walked in and said. “well gardy we are going in a different direction we need veteran leadership! so what we are gonna do is not give hunter a new contract so we have room for craig monroe”
Um, I seem to remember the twins offering Hunter a 3 year deal for 45 Mil that he TURNED DOWN, AFTER they had already acquired Craig Monroe, so that wasn’t the case at all.
I welcome this deal. Deeds was about 10th on the depth chart and he’s running out of chances. I’m sure he’d be a sixth-year minor league free agent at the end of this year anyway. This might give them a chance to call up Dustin Martin, who’s knocking the cover off the ball in New Britain.
Besides, I really don’t think Monroe is as bad as he was last year. I was as down on the deal as anyone at first, but I was willing to reserve judgment that perhaps he could find himself again with the Twins. Having watched him hit the last couple of weeks, it looks to me like Monroe is back to his 2006 form. That’s not great, but it’s a heck of a lot better than the guy he replaced, Jason Tyner.
If for any reason he reverts to his pull-happy 2007 form, they can call up Jon Knot, who showed me a lot more than Ruiz did in spring training, and actually wears a glove like he knows how to use it.
“How much really is Monroe making this year? I thought I read it was around 4.7 million.”
Monroe makes 3.82 mil this season. He is the 2008 version of Rondell White, only more expensive, and not as good.
Compairing Monroe to Rondell White is dumb. Monroe is without a dout the better player.
craig - I think monroe is a lot better option compared to Rondell, and much better, and significantly younger.
Monroe can’t hit the slider, Rondell could. That’s why Monroe has all those K’s.
If Gardy keeps Monroe away from right hand pitchers with good sliders, he might contribute a little.
WHAT! Rondell looked like he was hitting off a tee every swing. Maybe if the slider landed right on the friggin tee.
Whether he(Monroe) is better than R. White we will have to see, but niether one should be on the twins. Monroe Def. not worth 3 1/2 million a year. Thats is 6+ million a year Monroe and Punto waste. We could have had a bad ass 3B for that money.
Even in his diminished capacity, Craig Monroe was much better than RONDL last year.
RonDL’s OPS and HRs the last two years: 639, 556, 11 HRs over 466 PAs.
Monroe’s OPS and PAs over those years: 780, 638, 40 HRs over 907 PAs.
um, I think Rondells .178 avg for us last year says he couldn’t hit much of anything. I’ll compare with you though after Monroe gets the 109 at bats that Rondell had…
wow, in my surfing on Baseball Cube I found something interesting. Did anyone know that the avg salary for a MLB player jumped over 1 mil a season from ‘06 to ‘07, while in the prior 10 season it never jumped more than about 300 thousand? whats with that?
Monroe isn’t the player he was 2 years ago. Pitchers have figured him out. Check out Monroe’s stats last year against right hand pitchers. That is a much more honest indicator.
I acknowledge that Rondell was AWFUL. All I am saying is that Monroe is worse.
craig - no matter what you say about monroes past 2 seasons, you aint gonna change my mind that Craig Monroe is a big upgrade over Rondell White.
im gay
Rondell looked like the old man he is every time he stepped up to the plate and every time he tried to run down a fly ball last year, I cringed all the time expecting him to keel over out there…
I don’t see that with Monroe, he is still a very capable Outfielder, and I’ve liked the look of his at-bats more than Rondells last year, Now I said the ‘look’, not the results, so don’t bash me for saying that.
I do agree that monroe can improve his hitting, but he is not at all ‘worthless’, give him a chance
hahahaha your gay? so am i! how ironic we should hook up sometime big boy.
Keep(JohanAndTorii)AtAnyPrice
SO IS MAUER
Keep,
It’s hard not to be a big upgrade over Rondell White, that’s for sure. Monroe is one of the few guys in the game, who might not be, but who knows for sure. He will get his chances. I’m willing to watch him strike out for a couple more months.
I looked it up and Monroe is making 4,775,000 this year. I wonder how much pressure Gardy gets from above to play him just because of how much they’re paying him?
Is it better to hit like Shi_ like Monroe has done so far or to sit on the bench year in year out and be a past steroid user like RonDL.
“What else could I say Everyone is gay”
Kurt Cobain rip.
NOT jimmy bee just Mauer and Keep and reality
Keep(JohanAndTorii)AtAnyPrice says - you are now on my list of people that I don’t pay attention to. Perhaps if you didn’t make assumptions about other people, you’d be a much more interstng poster. But, you decided to call me names, rather than attack my logic.
Ruiz was an example. Make it Knott. Make it some FA that could have been signed for less.
This has nothing to do with the first two weeks, but Monroe’s career. Monroe was adequate, one year, in the majors. The move to acquire him was univerally ripped by most experts (not people here, but you know, the guys with actual baseball experience) as odd at best, bad at worst.
Monroe was going to be cut by the Cubs. He isn’t that good a hitter. They aren’t competing for the playoffs this year. He makes waaaaaaaay more money than the players that are in the minors or were similar to him but signed as FAs with other teams. It was a bad decision to trade for him.
You can disagree with that assessment if you want, but how about making a cogent argument, rather than a straw man argument?
so, were stealing peoples blog names now because we are IDIOTS, FOOLS, and MORONS.
wow, you called YOURSELF gay so that you could steal my name and post that comment to try and make fun of me reality?
you are a real ‘big boy’, finally got pull-ups huh?
Bad to steal other’s names, very bad.
hey mike, that 1:29 post was not by me, so perhaps you should take your:
“Perhaps if you didn’t make assumptions about other people, you’d be a much more interstng poster. But, you decided to call me names, rather than attack my logic.”
to heart yourself. and I don’t seem to recall attacking your logic unless you also post under a different name as well…?
“I looked it up and Monroe is making 4,775,000 this year.”
Monroe earns 3.82 mil in 2008. The Twins cut his contract the maximum allowed (20%). Monroe agreed to the pay cut (wise decision on his part).
I would get teed off to keep. That was very immature of him. This blog is about baseball not sabotage
i share a com with my little brother, i am real sorry keep. i guess somebody will be grounded from the computer now! well have a good day everyone.
“Keep” both Craig and I have been toosed off blogs for less then that. don’t take other peoples names.
and Mike - “You can disagree with that assessment if you want, but how about making a cogent argument, rather than a straw man argument?”
Read my prior posts, I seem to make a point in several of them that Craig Monroes purpose on this team is to provide a “VETERAN PRESENCE ON A VERY YOUNG TEAM”, and to be a “FILL IN OF AND POWER DH PRESENCE FROM THE RIGHT SIDE”.
I’m sorry if you feel my argument is not ‘cogent’ enough (quiz: how many people know the meaning of cogent off the top of their heads? just curious), but I try to voice my reasons for disagreeing with people when I do, and I try to provide stats when it is relevant.
cogent: logical
So does anyone know if I can order the game tonight through Comcast and if so how much would it cost.
jimmy - i know, i was going to make that apparent to reality, the 1:29 post was not mine, all others are.
and i’m not stealing any names…
Keep you have always been mellow or supportive I can name several other people that belittle other peoples opinions.
ex: Jama sometimes & T sometimes & Romer sometimes
How would I know that a post with your name was not by you?
And, I was referring to these quotes:
I hope you fools realize this…
well I hate to reiterate this again to you idiots…
get off your rockers…
fans who spew nonsense …
morons…
And:
the entire post at 11:40 was insulting
My 1:42 post was aimed at whomever stole Keep’s name, as I assume that was what happened. Not sure why anyone would want to do that to Keep, or anyone else for that matter.
BC of ND,
If you are going to rip a player of the caliber of Alex Rodriguez you best provide some evidence. You said that he doesn’t produce like Ortiz does in a tie game or when they are trailing. Hog wash.
If you look at his splits, his OPS is higher in tie games then any other situation! His worst is in games with difference greater than 4 runs. The complete opposite of what you are trying to say. You sir are completely wrong and the numbers back it up. His OPS is .985 in extra innings, is that clutch enough for you? How about the 146 hrs he has hit in tie games?
http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/bsplit.cgi?n1=rodrial01&year=00
I don’t have a problem with people making a comment, but at least back it up. All you have to do is research Arod for a few minutes to realize how ridiculous that claim is. He hit a bunch of walk off’s just last year.
Everett has incredible range and makes spectacular plays from other SS into routine plays for him. Do a little research on defensive baseball
Thank’s AaronK
jimmy, That statement is completely true as well. Even with his two errors this year his ratings are very good. Among the top in the league in plays made outside the regular zone.
thanks jimmy, i appreciate that today…
and Mike - I apologize, snap reaction to being attacked for words not from my mouth.
ok I will be very mellow till midway through the year. I didn’t realize just how bad that he was at the plate. I am very surprised he does not have a Bob Ueker type avg.
There was an article last year on ESPN and whether or not clutch hitting existed. You can probably find. Evidence is that probably does not exist, but since on one can agree what a “clutch” situation is, it is hard to measure.
Is it clutch to hit a grand slam in the first inning, putting your team ahead so that is very, very likely wins? Is it clutch to hit better late in the game, or with men on base?
Many questions were studied, and the “general” conclusion is that clutch hitting does not exist. That said, I think they pointed out a tiny handful of players where that might not be true, but my memory is fuzzy on the details.
jimmy, if he doesn’t start hitting better by the end of May I will be in agreement a change is needed. If he can hit around .240-.260 his defense is plenty good to support that stick. If he struggles around .200 then a change will be needed.
and none of those remarks were aimed at you Mike… I’ll tell ya, If ANYONE says something here I disagree with, i’m going to voice up (its my realist vs. optimist/pessimist complex) and try to give the best evidence I can as to why.
and AaronK - speak the truth brother, that is why I get animated sometimes, because a lot of what I argue against here is from people who don’t provide evidence for what they say. And if you look carefully, I provide evidence for almost all of my disagreements…
mike wants wins believe it or not when I say this but a very good clutch hitter is AJ another one that comes to mind is Big Pappi and also Jeter
Jeter - very clutch
“mike wants wins believe it or not when I say this but a very good clutch hitter is AJ another one that comes to mind is Big Pappi and also Jeter”
based on??? Give us the numbers to back it up. Not just what Tim McCarver says.
Sheffield at times can be very clutch just try to get a high fastball by him.
SethSpeaks have you ever seen Jeter in the WS.
Monroe’s numbers against left-handed pitchers in 07: .271/.309/.496/805.
That’s not a bad option as a platoon for More Kubel. Not that I want Kubel to sit much, but certain lefties will eat him up.
i cant hit
jimmy - why jeter is very clutch exactly
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/baseball/mlb/specials/all_star/2004/07/07/jeter.clutch/
read this
read this
evidence - Jeter has the most hits and highest avg in playoff history.
jimmy bee - Yeah, I have… but not since 2004, so he must not have been clutch since then? I know in the 2001 World Series, he hit .148/.179/.259. Most recently, 2007, he hit .176/.176/.176 in the playoffs and didn’t help the team advance to the ALCS.
I like Jeter more than most. he’s a hall of famer. He has had some good World Series, and a couple of big moments… I’m not taking anything away from him.
Steve Lombardozzi hit .412/.474/.647 in the World Series… he must be clutch too?
seth any question? has it been proven kube rube fan
Kirby was clutch. “And we’ll see you tomorrow night”
seth jk bad me bad me
Canseco and Mcgwire were the worst I have ever seen in clutch spots in the playoffs
Aaron K i never ripped A-rod he is a great hitter just not a great clucth hitter. All i said is he gets a lot of his HR’s in meaningless games. Can you you list all the pitchers he hit those 146 hr’s off of? Your one of those guys who’s head is burried in stats and all i was saying is that stats can be misleading.
an article in SI isn’t going to tell me that someone is clutch. it tells me he’s a very good player.
Most hits in playoff history. Well, has anyone played in more playoff games? Let’s not forget that Bernie Williams has the most playoff HR. Again, show me some numbers. Prove to me that Jeter is better in “clutch situations” than he is in “normal situations” and then show me that he is more “clutch” than anyone else.
I think ‘Clutch’ness depends on the context or situation or timeframe. A guy can be clutch in a world series (jeter, Ellsbury last year), clutch in a game situation (walk off’s, K’s, DP ball’s), or go on a long hitting streak.
I guess its in the eye of the beholder…
I never said he was the most clutch hitter in history I said a very good clutch hitter is. Read my post at 2:06
I believe there are “clutch” situations and given a large enough sample size, a player will perform as well in those situations as they do in less “clutch” situations.
cmath - “Monroe’s numbers against left-handed pitchers in 07: .271/.309/.496/805.
That’s not a bad option as a platoon for More Kubel. Not that I want Kubel to sit much, but certain lefties will eat him up.”
I agree with ya, thanks for providing those #’s as it helps the argument as to why Monroe has value for the Twins this year and is not ‘worthless’, and also demonstrates they type of player I think he should be for the Twins, a fill in OF and Right handed DH.
Best clutch hitter on this Twins team is Mike Redmond. I don’t need to look at stats i’m just going off of all the games i’ve heard or watched.
I don’t have an answer to this, but I am intrigued what others think…
Which hitter is more clutch?
Player A is a career .250/.350/.350 hitter. In “clutch” situations, he hits. 290/.390/.450.
Player B is a career .310/.420/.500 hitter. In “clutch” situations, he hits .290/.390/.450.
but anyway, peace out fellas, done with work and hittin the road, y’all have a good weekend and hopefully that 70 degree weather I’ve been readin about shows up on Tuesday…
For Fun:
Which will be higher at year’s end?
Gomez’ stolen bases or Punto plate appearances;
Gomez’ stolen bases or Twins victories;
Nathan’s saves or Morneau HR’s;
DY, Gomez, or Cuddy assists;
Livan wins or Monroe HRs;
My picks are Punto with 95 PAs; Gomez with 85 SBs to 84 victories; Morneau at 42 HRs to 39 Nathan saves; DY with 14 assists, Cuddy at 12 and Gomez at 9. Livan with 15 wins to 12 Monroe HRs.
Other comparisons?
wait, is player B Joe Mauer, because I can see that, I think he hits far too many easy ground balls to second baseman in RBI situations for being such a prodigy (I still think he’s awesome though)
I purposely didn’t find any actual players.
BC of ND,
You specifically mentioned tie games and games he is trailing. That was specific from your post. He has hit very well against a lot of excellent pitchers. The most dominate RHP of his era, Roger Clemons.
BA .377 HR 2, Doubles , OPS 1.004, 9 RBIs
Not too shabby.
Mariano Rivera probably the best RHP closer of his era has done pretty well against him. He only has 3 hits in 11 abs, but that isn’t horrible. Mariano is very tough on RH though.
Seth, you’ve nailed the issues with most studies, according to Bill James;
sample sizes can be too small that the information is lost in the fog of statistical analysis, so conclusions cannot be made.
there is no definition of clutch. what is more clutch, driving in a run in the third inning of a 4-2 game, or getting on base as the leadoff hitter n the 11th inning? How do you measure something that isn’t quantifiable in the first place?
I did a few searches, jeter’s name does not come up in any of the studies of someone that elevates his game in clutch situations.
Also, is it better to be clutch, or better to always be good (which is Seth’s quetsion above)? I’d rather have Player B, but A is the one viewed as a clutch hitter, because he is better in clutch situations than in “normal” situations.
BC of ND Kubel is pretty clutch as long as we are up by 5-10 runs in a game ha ha ha ha ha
that was a joke because you wouldn’t be in a clutch situation at that point
AaronK
I apologize if my comments upset you so much but as i said before i’m not a big believer in stats. I’m the type of person who has to see it to believe it.
A-rod is a great player a future HOF and will most likely break all of Bonds records but if i had my choice of who i would want hitting in the bottom of the ninth down by one run in game 7 of the WS i would pick Ortiz over A-rod.
How far is Everette’s range. Does he have enough range to make it to the batting cage and learn how to hit. We need to start pinch hitting for Everette and let our pitchers swing away.
As a former player and coach, I think that while it is hard to define clutch, it isn’t that hard to recognize it. Is the player going to perform better or worse than his “norm” when the game is on the line; is the player going to pad his stats in games that you would win even if he had an 0-fer; is the guy going to perform under or over your expectations when you need him most — end of close games? Obviously you want the best players — period; but the ones you appreciate the most are the ones who elevate their games at crunch time.
mike the problem is you can’t “measure” everything in a baseball game like hustle,attitude,heart. Clutch hitting is the same way you can’t justify it with stats but you know it when you see it.
Excellent post Carlos i couldn’t and didn’t say it any better.
I hope that the lineups are posted soon so there will be something to chat about.
Fair enough, I am not as big of a stats person as you may believe. However, over the course of a career the length of Arod you don’t achieve his success without hitting good pitching. You also don’t achieve it without having clutch hits.
I don’t have any problems with Ortiz, I think he too is a great hitter. Just remember that most of the closers in this league are right handed. He has a huge adv at the end of games facing dominate closers from the left side of the plate.
Both are great hitters, I would take either in that situation.
SethSpeaks Steve Lombardozzi hit .412/.474/.647 in the World Series… he must be clutch too?
where did you get your information from let me see the article
Ortiz has had some clutch hits but I will take my chances with A-Rod everyday.
I played through college. I recognize clutch situations, but I want my best hitter up there when the game counts.
let’s say your college team has this:
#3 hitter - .390/.480/.700
#9 hitter - .200/.220/.250
In the first game of a doubleheader, the #9 hitter came up with a bloop two run single to give the team a 5-4 win.
Let’s say that in Game 2, the #9 hitter doesn’t get the start, but in the bottom of the last inning, down by a run, the #3 hitter is due up. Would you pinch hit the #9 hitter?
jimmy -
Lombo’s stats can be found here:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/l/lombast01.shtml
was Billy Hatcher a great hitter in the World Series
Some people “rise to the occasion” under extremely stressful situations, while others fold. This is the case with fighter pilots, infantry troops, disaster workers and so on. There are certain people who have the physical and psychological makeup for the stressful situations encountered in professions, such as bomb squads or espionage work. People are tested before receiving such assignments. It has been proven in the laboratory that some individuals function to a much higher level under stressful circumstances than others. The military and government agencies such as the CIA have been testing individuals ability to perform “in the clutch” for at least 6 decades. Some private industries now do the same. They want to know who is “clutch” and who isn’t. Every job and profession has people who are “clutch” and who are not.
Of course baseball’s anti-clutch people will tell you that baseball players are the one exception to the rule. Baseball players perform the same, regardless of the situation, according to the anti-clutchers.
not to good in the ALCS .267
Carlos, I’d rather have the guy that is going to win me more games, not the guy that is ok 80-90% of the time, but is better in the clutch. I’d think you’d win a lot more games with a team full of Player B from above, than full of Player A from above.
How do you all that don’t believe in stats watch enough games to know if a player is better than the other 700+ players? How do you compare them, if you don’t use stats?
I could care less about hustle and heart and attitude (ok, I care a little, but not much). I care about output, and output can be measured statistically.
If clutch hitting exists, you should be able to measure it. What is your definition? I guarantee it can be measured in some way. There are over 100 years of statistics to use.
btw, I don’t know the answer, but there is plenty of evidence to suggest that it does not exist, or if it does exist, that it exists in a lot fewer players than people expect.
Nice we are talking about lombo
David Ortiz has a higher OPS in so-called clutch situations than in non-clutch situations. But he’s the only one I can think of who defies the general trend of performing about the same as your ordinary numbers. Clutch is in the eye of the beholder. And hitting in the clutch is remembered more than hitting at other times. But it is not generally a measurable phenomenon.
I’m normally not a huge stat person. I believe in hustle and attitude and confidence and all that. I believe chemistry is a nice thing but doesn’t win or lose games. I just think that this whole “clutch” thing is one of those touchy-feely things.
TNaIC - I actually like your point about ballplayers not being different than anyone else. However, the difference is that in baseball, these players get a lot of chances in “clutch” situations. In those chances, they are going to succeed sometimes and fail sometimes. Sometimes you’re the hero. Sometimes you’re the goat. That’s the nature of baseball.
Mike: “but there is plenty of evidence to suggest that it does not exist,”
IMO that is 100% false. There is no evidence whatsoever that “clutch hitting” doesn’t exist.
Just as there is no evidence that is DOES exist.
You can’t even get two people to agree on a definition of “clutch,” so how can you measure it.
And, even if you DO agree on a definition, how could you possibly ‘measure’ it? Wouldn’t the numbers of the ‘clutch hitter’ in ‘clutch situations’ be totally dependant on how ‘clutch’ the opposing pitcher was?
Just some numbers
Career OPS with Runners In Scoring Position
Bonds 1.121
Mark Texeira 1.079
Manny 1.055
Sheffield .990
Vlady .986
Thome .983
Mauer .973
A Rod .963
Hafner .955
Magglio Ordonez .953
David Ortiz .922
Morneau .882
Kubel .857
Jeter .841
Hunter .809
AJ P .796
My main point is that the sample size for “clutch performer” can not be just one or two or three. In baseball, it has to be hundreds before it really tells you a lot.
Ortiz came through like 5 times in a week a couple of years back. It was incredible. But then what happens if he gets out the next 10 times in clutch situations. Suddenly, he’s back to “normal” but the perception is that he is ‘clutch’. He is a bad example, because if there is one guy I have considered to be clutch, it would be Ortiz.
thrylos… now that is some great sleuth-work!
Kubel can hit in the clutch. example two years ago we were 25-33, Boston came to town, we had just dumped Bautista and Castro and put on Punto and Bartlett. Kubel comes up in the 12th innin g and hits a walk off grand slam. That win was the win that started the miracle run of 06, and last game his grand slam killed the Sox momentom after they had cut our lead in half. I would say Kubel is plenty clutch.
mike wants wins,
I have to respectfully disagree. I haven’t seen the slightest shred of evidence that “clutch” does not exist in baseball. The problem with baseball, is statistically you have to factor in every variable, not just some, and then you must subjectively assign a value to many of the variables. The other problem is that, statistically it is hard to represent what actually happened on the field. Baseball statistics are a part of a much larger picture, and often represent factual data that fails to translate to what actually took place.
thrylos,
How about OPS with RISP in CLOSE GAMES vs blowouts? Late in games or early?
Game deciders vs Non-Game deciders?
The variables are endless.
There is no way to measure this. How many possible oppotunities does a player get in ten years of playing with two outs bottom of the ninth runners in scoring position. Are does clutch mean 1 out in the ninth or World series Ba. or playoffs OBP or what? If you get 10 chances to win a game in the ninth and you do it 4 out of ten times are you a clutch hitter? Un-measurable no one will ever get enough at bats in that situation to truly know.
Other variables.
End of season or beginning.
Big lead in standings, out of the race or tight race?
Batting against Johan Santana or Carlos Santana?
Good points… Another thought is…
What happens when a guy comes up with runners on 2nd and 3rd and two outs in the bottom of the 9th and lines out to 3B to end the game? Nothing more the hitter can do than try to hit the ball hard. But a guy who hits a broken bat blooper to score the two runs is “clutch” despite not really hitting well.
Google clutch hitting study. Dozens will appear, nearly all of them reaching the conclusion that it does not exist, or if it does, it is in VERY FEW players (and not the ones you’d expect).
People that know more about math and stats and measuring output than everyone in the converstation combined have spent years studying it, and there is plenty of evidence that is not likely to exist.
We may not like that, but that is what the vast majority of studies done conclude.
To address one specific question / statement:
Addressing the pitcher’s clutchness and the many things that happen in a play: since there are so many opportunities for measurement (over 154 or 162 games times the number of at bats times more than 100 years of baseball), these items are controllable in the true scientifc sense of control group vs study group.
Like I said, I don’t know the answer, but there have been a number of statistical studies done that suggest that there is no such thing.
Craig, thanks for respectfully disagreeing, I appreciate the opportunity to have a good discussion on this topic. It is actually a pretty interesting topic (certainly more interesting than Monroe or Punto over and over).
I agree with USAF Chief that there is no evidence that “clutch” does or does not exist in baseball. I would just change that to no “statistical evidence”.
I think there is sufficient evidence that baseball players are human beings. There is also a large body of evidence proving that some humans perform better at tasks, under stress, than others. That in itself, is proof that “clutch” in baseball does exist. If baseball players are proven not to be human, I withdraw this comment.
IMO “Clutch” would have to be defined as; if you get a hit a run will score and if you don’t get a hit the inning is over. Pretty Simple I guess.
You really can’t define clutch.
Bill James wrote an article stating that most of the studies at the time were flawed due to sample size.
Several people have attempted to address his concerns since then, but I haven’t read many of their studies.
Career OPS with Runners In Scoring Position (and now with their career OPS numbers and difference.)
Bonds 1.121 1.051 .07
Mark Texeira 1.079 .906 .173
Manny 1.055 1.001 .054
Sheffield .990 .918 .072
Vlady .986 .970 .016
Thome .983 .972 .011
Mauer .973 .851 .122
A Rod .963 .967 -.004
Hafner .955 .948 .007
Magglio Ordonez .953 .891 .062
David Ortiz .922 .938 -.016
Morneau .882 .838 .044
Kubel .857 .751 .106
Jeter .841 .850 -.009
Hunter .809 .794 .015
AJ P .796 .762 .034
So, what does this tell us? Not much. A couple of names that have been declared “clutch” - such as Jeter and Ortiz actually fare the worst on this list in terms of difference between OPS’s.
There’s also a pretty big problem when looking at numbers like this. If the Giants of old have a guy on 2nd with first base open, would teams pitch to Bonds? No chance.
If clutch hitting existed, it would be a skill that certain players exhibited. It just doesn’t exist. There have been several studies done and articles written about the existence or non-existence of clutch hitting. Pretty much all of them have come to the conclusion that it does not exist. Players just don’t seem to be able to consistently put up better numbers in any number of situations that would be considered clutch.
mike wants wins,
I have researched the issues, and read the statistical studies. They have reached the wrong conclusion. Statisticians do pretty good until they start to try to interpret their own data. That is where they often fail.
Your right I think Ben D. Whats the players batting avg. with two outs and runners in scoring position. Not enough Data if you get much deeper than that.
“There is also a large body of evidence proving that some humans perform better at tasks, under stress, than others. ”
I’d be interested in looking at this large body of evidence. Do you have a link or two?
Pete, great stuff.
I think this is one of the flaws with the definition of clutch “better in clutch situations makes you clutch”.
I’d rather have the guy with the best numbers in a “clutch” situation, not the one that was better than he normally was. AROD is a great example above. He still has an OPS over 960 - I’d rather have him than Jeter or Kubel or Morneau.
This is how Elias defines “clutch hitting” (which they call Late inning pressure situation): any at-bat in the seventh inning or later, with the batter’s team trailing by three runs or less (or four runs if the bases were loaded)
not sure that I totally agree that you have clutch situations only late in the game, but that’s their definition
I wish they would hurry up with the freakn lineup.
Ok let’s say in tonight’s game we’re tied and it’s the top of the ninth inning with a runner on 2b and 2 out’s and your only real PH options are Red Dog, Monroe or Tolbert. Who’s the best option or best chance of getting a clutch hit?
BC,
Tolbert because he’s hot, the others are not.
I wonder what Gary Gaetti’s stats were after he got knocked down by a high inside pitch. He would stand backup with smoke coming out of his ears, and almost every time hit the ball out of the park. The dumbest thing a pitcher could do was come in high and tight to Gaetti. It was like knocking him into a phone booth. He went in as Clark Kent and came out as Superman.
I personally believe that there is more veracity to “clutch” pitching than there is in hitting. A lot more stress on the pitcher to make a perfect pitch in a high-stress situation than there is on a batter to foul-off a good pitch in the same situation.
There is a reason that there are some elite closers, and then the second rung.
Redmond is probably the best choice. But, of course, it really depends on the pitcher. Is it someone that Redmond has a hard time picking up the ball from? Has Monroe hit this guy well over his career?
Of course, if we are down 2 runs, or the runner is on first instead of second, the better choice might be Craig Monroe, who would be able to tie the game with a swing, or might be able to hit a ball to the gap.
I remember when Canseco and big Mac were in the WS and they were hitting under .100 combined for the whole WS . Would that be listed as not very clutch
the Kirk Gibson HR was pretty clutch against the A’s in 1988 WS
“There is a reason that there are some elite closers, and then the second rung.”
That reason is probably the exact same as the reason that there are some elite starters, and then the second rung. Guys like Mariano Rivera, Joe Nathan, and Francisco Rodriguez are just better pitchers than guys like Todd Jones, Joe Borowski, or Eric Gagne.
Pete and Sane i would pick Redmond simply because i think he’s better in clutch situations from what i’ve seen in the past. I have no stats to back this up just a gut feeling that when he comes to bat there’s a good chance he’ll get a hit. We have all seen this from Redmond have we not?
“I remember when Canseco and big Mac were in the WS and they were hitting under .100 combined for the whole WS . Would that be listed as not very clutch”
Well, you could then look at the next World Series, when Canseco hit .357 and McGwire .294. Is that clutch?
That’s the issue here. If someone was clutch, they would be able to demonstrate an ability to hit at a higher level in “bigger” places. The same goes in reverse - if someone isn’t clutch, then they would continue to hit lower in big games.
The reality is that a World Series is a small sample size - 20 or 25 at bats at most? - that you can’t take much information away from it.
and honestly, from years of coaching, sometimes gut feel is the right thing to do.
From what I have seen I would put Redmond in as a DH later in Ball games for Everett who is not very clutch with Redmond who is very clutch
“The reality is that a World Series is a small sample size - 20 or 25 at bats at most? - that you can’t take much information away from it.”
Exactly!
Tolbert Def. has the best eye. He makes the pitcher use at least 5 or 6 pitches on him. He has gotten a walk or hit in every bat in the ninth inning so far this year.
BC of ND - do you remember every single at bat that Redmond has had in a “late and close” situation? Here’s a game from last year where Redmond had the EXACT situation you are talking about - a runner on 2nd with 2 outs in the bottom of the 9th inning. http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/MIN/MIN200705260.shtml
Redmond grounded out to the shortstop. If that was the one game I happened to watch, would I be justified in thinking that Redmond was the last guy I would want up in a clutch situation?
We, as humans, tend to remember the game winners. They are the really exciting ones. Kirby Puckett’s home run in game 6 of the ‘91 series for example. The final score of that game was 4-3. I would doubt that the majority of people remember how the Twins scored their other 3 runs? Aren’t those runs really important as well? Or how about Scott Leius’ solo shot in the bottom of the 8th inning to give the Twins a one run lead in game 2? Shouldn’t we all remember that one as well for being clutch?
We cannot possibly remember every single at bat of every single game. There is just no way to do it. But we can selectively choose to remember certain at bats. And the ones we tend to remember are the times our favorite players succeed - not when they fail.
“From what I have seen I would put Redmond in as a DH later in Ball games for Everett who is not very clutch with Redmond who is very clutch”
You cannot DH for a position player. Only the pitcher. Sorry.
Mike (and some others),
Repeating my perspective at post at 2:52 : “Obviously you want the best players — period; but the ones you appreciate the most are the ones who elevate their games at crunch time.”
We all want our “best player” at the plate in critical situations. But, I “Appreciate” the players who step up their games under pressure versus those who perform worse than “their norm”. That doesn’t mean I would pull the “better” player for the “lesser” player. It does mean that when Red Dog gets hits or strikes out versus Torii getting a hit or striking out in key, late game situations, you have a different reaction based on what you expect to happen. And, in my experience and in my opinion, players do perform differently (better or worse) when under pressure. I don’t know how to study it, but I am convinced it is there.
Pete D my bad ph
Pete your right and no i don’t remember every at bat that’s why i said it was a “gut feeling” Honestly i think i might miss maybe 10-15 games a year so I’m just going off of gut instinct which is what most mgrs do. So are you saying you don’t think Redmond is good in the clutch?
why don’t we use Redmond that much he could be DH now and again he is great with the stick
there is a song by Keith Moon of the band “The Who” it is called the “Naked Man” it would be down right hillarious to use that as Redmonds coming to bat music
“So are you saying you don’t think Redmond is good in the clutch?”
I’m not saying that. I’m saying that I don’t believe any player is good in the clutch. I think Mike Redmond is a player who is going to get a hit in roughly 3 out of every 10 at bats. For the Twins, he has actually been better, hitting nearly .311. He also “only” gets out 65% of the time, as opposed to Craig Monroe who gets out nearly 70% of the time while getting a hit in only 5 - and much less as of the past couple of years - out of every 20 at bats. The odds are better that you will score the winning run in your situation if you put Redmond up to the plate than if you put Monroe out there.
Craig says once Cuddy comes back, here is the lineup:
Gomez, Tolbert, Mauer, Morneau, Young, Kubel, Cuddyer, Lamb, Harris
Craig says it’s the Calvin Griffith approach to baseball: Good hit, good pitch, no field.
Craig also says it is criminal to keep young Tolbert out of the lineup. Craig says Calvin would fire the manager if he didn’t let a good young player like that, play every day. That’s what Craig says. Craig says, that’s all Craig has to say for the rest of the day, except that Craig says, Win Twins!
USAFChief wants to know why Craig thinks it will take Cuddyer coming back for Tolbert to be in the lineup.
USAFChief thinks if Gardy was going to make that change, he wouldn’t need to wait for Cuddyer, he could make that change now.
USAFChief also thinks that IF that happens, putting Tolbert 5 spots ahead of Cuddyer in the lineup would be the thing that would cause Calvin Griffith to fire the manager. USAFChief thinks Calvin was pretty smart about those things and wouldn’t want the weaker hitter to get 75-150 more plate appearances.
That’s what USAFChief thinks.
I remember Randy Bush getting all those pinch hits that one year or two.
And Puck so many times would get a double just at the right time.
Might not technically have been clutch hitting all the time for these two. But they excited a lot of people, including the players, and the team would jell and win.
So beyond clutch, timely hitting. Might have been against a particularly tough team. Or a day when the team really needed a win because of the dynamics of a pennant race.
It’s hard to precisely define porn, but ya know it when you see it. Same with clutch —– or with timely hitting.
Craig agrees with USAFChief about Tolbert being in the lineup now. Craig thinks Tolbert can handle the bat better than Cuddyer. Craig thinks Calvin would approve.
Craig recalls some much weaker hitters than Tolbert, batting 2nd when Calvin was in charge. When Rodney Cline Carew wasn’t hitting 2nd, anyway.
Craig has a young lady who adores Craig, waiting to see Craig. Craig must be on Craig’s way. Goodbye, from Craig.
