Punto placed on DL; Casilla promoted from Rochester
Posted on May 10th, 2008 – 6:20 PMBy Joe Christensen
Alexi Casilla has been scratched from Class AAA Rochester’s lineup tonight and appears the likely choice to get called up with Nick Punto headed to the disabled list.
After a slow start, Casilla has raised his batting average to .219.
Hat tip to Jim Mandelaro, of the Rochester Democrat and Chronicle.
UPDATE: The Twins just made the official announcement. Punto to the 15-day DL with a strained left hamstring, and Casilla is being recalled.
208 Responses to "Punto placed on DL; Casilla promoted from Rochester"
Surprising, but a good move.
i hope he brings more than just his speed with him…him batting behind gomez would be insane if they both could get on base ..it would be fun to watch…
that is what we need from our side once in awhile…a few in the seats now and then can win alot of games…hopefully the twins will find their power
mj1, if they go that route, it’d be better to put Casilla 9th hitting “ahead” of Gomez.
It’ll be interesting to see how this plays out. Tolbert/Everett appear to be the starters now, Casilla likely may not see much play time.
i think he will just get an occasional start - thats probably about all– i would like to see how he has progressed if any…
t - u r right about casilla batting 9th — that is much better spot…i just wasnt thinking ..as usual…
I agree. Casilla is holding down the backup role for now. Gardy doesn’t trust his glove, but he will probably give him some chances to show he can play. The kid has some nice natural skills. If he can catch the ball…
Just thinking about the young IF we could have next year… Morneau, Harris, Casilla, Tolbert… and the young OF with DY, Gomez, Cuddy… and the young catcher Joe… and the young pitchers… Blackburn, Slowey, Baker, Perkins, hopefully Perkins
That should be hopefully Frankie
is kubel really only hitting 230— he has to go…i just dont like his stuff anymore…you need more than he is giving from the dh—-open up a spot on the roster
called it about Casilla 
tonight in rochester, btw, Liriano is pitching a no-no after 3 (2BB and 3K) and Ruiz hit a homer
Twins trying to take advantage of a lead off walk..funny I thought they were trying to take advantage of the bases being loaded
2 walks in 2 games? Who are you and what did you do with Carlos Gomez?
Not that I’m complaining.
Im speechless!!!
Gomez gets an RBI with a walk!!!
If he gets patient, can you imagine how scary he would be? Maybe DY will take notes
gomez average will go up big time when he learns to walk..he is getting better day by day, its fun to watch the maturity coming ever so slow…
mj1
did you see Kubel’s at bat? within a few feet of going out. he hit it harder than anyone in the inning. lets get rid of the guy second on the team in HR and second in RBI. that makes sense. his average and OBP will come up, he’s historically a slow starter.
i read in a boston newspaper dice k is on a 110 pitch count…if these guys are patient and take a few walks, they can be in the boston bullpen by the 5th inning i would think….
Good job Perkins. Quick 1,2,3. Get Dice K back on the mound with almost no rest. Lets have a big inning boys.
sorry jp…i wish i could buy that, but i have been watching and listening to every story there is about kubel and how good he could,should, and might be…i am done- he has not shown me anything and i think he just doesnt care either, thats the other thing besides his waistline that bothers me…i think he is just fat and happy with mediocrity or less…just the way i feel ..sorry—no im not
In Rochester (against Buffalo):
After 4 innings, Liriano:
0R, 1H, 2BB, 5K, 60 pitches, 35 strikes
well mj1 i’m glad kubel doesn’t have to show you anything. he must be doing something right, or have some amount of talent, for the coaches keep sending him out there. and i’ll think he’ll make you eat your words by the end of the year.
Nice pitch Dice K! LOL
cuddyer is overdue
stop hitting these damn atom balls….thats 2 tonite already
thrylos98 thanks for the updates on Liriano! hopefully a step in the right direction!!
and big jason comes thru again….i hate to repeat myself but jason kubel needs to go away….maybe he has a career in japan…
thrylos98, thanks. Best part of that update is 35 strikes of 60 pitches.
Ump not calling the knee high strikes tonight. That’s not good with these big swingers
Young Carlos showing off the arm. Or, do you think he was aiming for 2b? lol.
Kid’s got a strong arm.
if you hate to repeat yourself then don’t mj1. you’re going to be right on kubel 7.5 times out of 10. hurry up pat yourself on the back and be done with it.
lets get out of here perkins!
NICE JOB PERKINS!!!!
After 5 innings, Liriano:
2R, 4H, 2BB, 5K, 76 pitches, 48 strikes
Has anybody else noticed that Gomez has developed a “Micheal Jackson” style of grabbing his helmet as he takes off from home?
Seems like the right move. They need to see if he is suited for shortstop…
Great setup by Young there.
at least Youngs arm is working
perkins has done a great job tonite…good for him…hopefully he continues and becomes a fixture on this staff…..
Good AB by tolbert working it full then taking it the other way for a lead off double!!!
Looks like tolbert has his sweet swing back again. let’s not rest him for 6 or 8 games or whatever it was last time.
After 6 innings, Liriano:
2R, 5H, 2BB, 5K, 91 pitches, 58 strikes
I think that this is the deepest he pitched in a game this year
dice is goin down this inning…
swung at a ball there mauer. cmon morneau lets get tolbert in!
ATTA BOY!!!!
thrylos98
do you pull liriano with 91 pitches? let him feel good about the start? thats what i would do.
damn we kill things with double plays much , much too often…tough to make this one run hold up….but we will see
let liriano decide
ukelele needs some of manny’s hair
Why not call up Luke Hughes from New Britain? Put Neshek on the 60-day DL to create a roster spot on the 40-man roster. Hughes has hit 9 HR already in New Britain and plays 2B. His AVG is .388; .682 SLG and his OPS is 1.130!! 10+ game hitting streak too!
how can you not like tolbert? see that hustle on the foul ball by Lowell? he’ll give you 120% every game without exception.
has luke played any at ML level?
ok…jps man gets to start this off…good luck to him…
I dont know if Tolbert will be a starter, but he will be a twin for a long time.
Hughes has not been in the Bigs yet, but Casilla hasn’t earned his way (IMO).
Liriano is pulled. Ricky Barrett in. So the above line is his final. A little better control (he has a WP too, btw). Good start to build on. Give him a month or two and he might be able to help
never think of taking a pitch with this guy on the mound…..grrrr….arrrfggghhh
oh well thats all i will say jp
wonder if delmon is one of these guys that once he hits the first homer, they just come in droves….we can only hope huh
my boy hit a rope. nice play by Youk. has hit the ball hard in two out of three at bats. nothing to show for it.
JP…now thats a rope
Coco Crisp?
why was Perkins still in there to start the innning?
its suddenly batting practice–take him out
Thanks Gardy!
Crisp and Lowery? ? ?
argue about semantics mj1? sure anytime. regardless he still hit it hard.
painful to give one up to coco. wish the twins would do that more often. be ahead in the count and look for a pitch and jump on it.
tolber diving on the foul ball again. love watching the kid play.
Punto may hustle, but he dont have SH(*t on Tolbert
What an inept game management. The kid pitched his heart out in his first start in the majors. The idiot manager sends him in tired and now the best thing he can hope for is a no decision… (both Bass and Korecky are rested) Way to go Gardy. What a genius…
did i mention painful?
lol agreed JJ!
thrylos98 couldn’t agree with you more. what a waste.
Tired? What was Perkins pitch count? Up until that first homer to start the inning he didn’t look to be struggling at all.
just seems like the twins can hit, run, pitch and field with any team in baseball, but they just cant play long ball with any of them….only thing keeping us down…youd think that was easily repairable but…..
Perkins had 98 pitches on his first start in the majors…
he was at 90 pitches finished with 98. plus it was his first start in the majors this year. you get pretty amped up for em and it takes it out of you. and always better too soon rather than too late.
Was nice to see Perkins duel with Matsuzaka. Now let’s hope the offense can break through and get this tied up again.
He was in the mid 90’s as far as pitch count. He should have been taken out and given a chance to have a win.
Strike out Manny, get Papi to hit a DP ball. But Crisp and Lowery? Hard to take.
Good Old Gardy…. always a day late and a dollar short!! Every time he tries to save his bullpen, he screws up!! A nice kick in the butt to Perkins who should have been enjoying six strong innings.
But the point, even other than the pitch count is that you gotta protect the kids. Get him out while he pitched far enough to have a chance to win the game, esp if you have 3-4 fresh pitchers in the pen. Duh!
I lost track of the game…didn’t realize it was already the 7th.
This Matsuzaka fellow does have some great stamina.
Bring back Ullger as batting coach. Back then we got an extra base hit every once in a while.
Our Hr hitters need to step up at some point.
“Bring back Ullger as batting coach. Back then we got an extra base hit every once in a while.”
It’s not like Matsuzaka is a slouch you know. This is a good pitcher on the mound for Boston tonight.
He’s probably talking about some extra base hits are needed for the rest of the season-a homer here and there would be nice!!!!!!
How do you know (before he gets blasted)
when a pitcher is “tired”?
Rectal thermometer readings?
Second guessing is cheap and easy.
sane
uh thats why its a preemptive move. protect your young pitcher who battled through a tough lineup.
Bass must be tired too.
Should have known in advance and should have pulled him before the HR.
The guy pitched good. Should have tried to limit him in first outing of the year.
I know when a team can hit a home run and the twins cannot.
guess it doesn’t matter now
Should have pulled him in the first inning to be safe AND preemptive.
Crud. Knock someone off the plate for a change. Dang. Everyoe just stands there and swings from their heels.
That’s right JP, let’s pull the pitcher who’s shown no signs of struggling, then we can all complain whenever who comes in gives up more runs (such as Bass)
the red sox are just showing us a part of the game we dont get to see too often…its a real pity…thank god these are all just solos…..all these homers tonite are not hit by guys that are known for their power either…
its going to be pretty hard to contend if you cant play longball in this league….and i hope they realize it before its too late …..
what a moronic statement comparing the a starter who was in the 90s for pitch count in his first start to a relief pitcher in his first inning of work.
Long story short, the Twins bullpen has gotten stretched recently with the last two starts…and with Neshek gone, Gardy can’t afford to pull the guy doing well premptively.
It’s about as moronic as complaining about a pitching decision after the fact.
Fire Gardy and hire Miss Cleo.
She’ll know when a pitcher is just about to get hit hard.
T if you can’t see the idea or need of using kid gloves with your young pitcher in his first start then its not worth belaboring the point. has nothing to do with what bass (or any reliever) does or doesn’t do.
Also, fire Joe Vavra. Since he was unable to help the Twins score 7 runs against Matsuzaka.
next weekend in Colorado all those warning track fly outs will be homers. I bet that’s when Delmon will hit his first this year
Sane that was pretty good!!!!! All though Gardy ain’t all bad.
Hey JP, it makes perfect sense now…but I didn’t see any complaints until after the second homerun.
But unlike some people I’m not going to pretend I’m a baseball guru by making the obvious statement after the fact.
It’s like saying Francona’s an idiot for not having his catcher try and throw out Young going to 3rd in the 9th.
Stop talking about pitchers and start talking about hitters. 2008 - Twins rank 26 of 30 for total bases. 2007 - 27 of 30 (3rd place in central); 2006 19 of 30 (1st place); 2005 - 25 of 30 (3rd place); 2004 15 of 30 (1st place); 2003 - 9 of 30 (1st place); 2002 - 6 of 30 (1st place);2001 - 13 of 30 (2nd place). Starting to get the picture. Only one time did we win the central when we weren’t in the top half for total bases.
Kubel wants a longterm contract. He needs to hit a home run or just get a hit that will do.
JP,
Whats the magic number of pitches?
100?-too soon to pull Santana, too late to pull Perkins.
90?; 80?; 70?…..
All the geniuses and clairvoyants are at their keyboards, peering into their monitors.
All the professionals are out on the field wasting their actual knowledge of the game.
NoMor, you’re picking the wrong game to complain about the offense.
I wonder what would happen if the Twins played the Mets and got no hit by Santana? Would people still blame the offense?
T., Like you said, you lost track!! Perkins’ fast ball was down 4-5 mph in the seventh. A smart manager would have seen that, at least, after the first homer. Not Gardy and, obviously, not you. They had Bass and Reyes warming up …like I said, day late, $ short. You want to know how to suck the life out of a team? Follow Gardy, HE’S A PRO!!
Twins hitters: 17 home runs.
Twins pitchers: given up 40.
fire vavra
release kubel
bill smith should be on the phone tonite looking for some firepower like josh hamilton or somebody…(not barry bonds)
actually sane and t
if you read comments earlier about liriano my recommendation was to pull liriano after 91 pitches and let him feel good about the start. felt the same about this situation. regarless of our opinion(s) the result of gardy’s choices are being played out.
Hey “T” learn something about the effect of coaching approach. Coaches do affect performance and Vavra’s approach is one factor in our lack of extra base hits. Maybe a change in approach could help us get out of the bottom 20% of teams in total bases.
“You want to know how to suck the life out of a team? Follow Gardy, HE’S A PRO!!”
Yeah, they are in first place with fourth place talent.
Read the preseason predictions.
A smart manager would have seen that, at least, after the first homer.
Okay, let’s say Gardy notices that Perkins is struggling after the homerun.
So what does he do in the meantime? I suppose he can send Andy to the mound, or maybe Mauer can talk things over for a bit to give a reliever a chance to warm up.
But at that point, the homer’s over the fence and the game is tied anyway.
And as we saw, Bass gave one up…so it’s still 3-2.
Tolbert is hitting the ball harder than our power hitters.
No Barry????
NoMor…you failed to notice what I’m pointing out.
The Twins have scored two runs against Daisuke Matsuzaka. He’s not a bad pitcher.
You can’t blame the offense for struggling against a dang good pitcher.
Hence why I mentioned possible fan reactions if the Twins were to hit against Johan.
How hard is it to go Crain in the 7th
guerrier in the 8th and then nathan in the 9th….thanks gardy you trying to protect the bullpen lost us the game…..AGAIN
I blame Kubel for batting .220+ and going 0 for his last 13
Not to mention the hitting situation is more in regards to the organizations approach comparred to the affects of the hitting coach himself.
He may not be a good coach, but even if he’s fired…odds are at this point they’d bring in a guy with a similiar mindset anyway.
The problem isn’t his ablity to teach, it’s what he’s teaching. And that’s the Twins problem more than it is his.
Like I’ve said before, you could have the best hitting coach in the world, but give them a lousy cirriculum and there’s nothing they’re going to do with it.
“the result of gardy’s choices are being played out.”
And apparently player talent level and player execution is not a factor at all!
Riiight!
I’ll let “T” focus on tonight’s game. I’m talking about a season or 2-3 year’s of performance. With Vavra coaching our hitters the results stink. He’ probably a great guy and can be successful in any given game or not. I don’t care about tonight’s game - it’s the season that matters. Also - tonight’s game looks like 75% of the previous 2008 games - no extra base hits.
Yep, Bass is tired. Time to pull him. Gardy’s an idiot.
OR REYES IN THE 7TH CRAIN IN THE 8TH
AND NATHAN IN THE 9TH
WHY LEAVE A GUY IN HIS FIRST START OUT THEIR IN A ONE RUN GAME AGAINST A TEAM WITH LEGIT HITTERS 1-9
SO STUPID
t..the twins have failed offensively off pitchers who are no better than AAA this year…not everyone this year has been dicek….we have struggled against alot of pitchers…i dont understand your point..
With Vavra coaching our hitters the results stink.
*psst* Vavra was hitting coach in 2006.
One good season, one crappy season.
Going by that logic, Gardy would’ve been fired back in 05.
We are just lucky Manny, Ortiz or Varitek have not gone deep so far. We just have no freakin power.
“How hard is it to go Crain in the 7th
guerrier in the 8th and then nathan in the 9th”
You can’t do that every day.
No reliever get 162 appearances!
Closer to 50-60.
Two out of three games, you try to do without the top of your bullpen.
well never know sane how gardy’s game choices would have influenced the game if done different. a good manager puts a player in a position to suceed. wooden said that. if we lose both the players and coaches need to bear responsibility. just like when we win both deserve credit.
If we cant double up Ortiz and Manny we have problems.
the twins have failed offensively off pitchers who are no better than AAA this year…
A couple of those guys (Cliff Lee and Vincente Padilla for example) have been pitching well. Heck, Lee’s 5-0 (I think 6-0 now)
So there’s a few examples.
Also, what do you think other teams are thinking when they’re lineups get shut down by the Twins mighty one-two punch of Legendary Livan Hernandez and Mr. Cy Young Jr. himself Nick Blackburn?
“Two out of three games, you try to do without the top of your bullpen.”
EXCATLY!
The Twins are in a stretch of what…20 straight games without a day off?
If a pitcher is pitching well you go with him as long as you can. Perkins unfortunately got beat up too quickly to respond. The first homerun would’ve been the warmup sign to the bullpen. But the second one came and that was that.
JP,
well never know sane how gardy’s game choices would have influenced the game if done different. a good manager puts a player in a position to suceed. wooden said that. if we lose both the players and coaches need to bear responsibility. just like when we win both deserve credit.”
AMEN!!!
Who started that silly SH(*T of free Kubel? Was that Seth Speaks? If so they both need to be in prison. I will say this before he comes to bat.
t - youre rediculous …what about all the others….we all know lee is class, but the rest???? c,mon.. ,,we have been shut down by quite a few lesser pitchers..and how many times have we been totally shut out??
You know, people call me the blind fan around here…but reading some of these comments, I think that’s the wrong way to point the finger.
Look at this comments thread for example. The Twins are playing the Red Sox, and the Red Sox are winning on 4 homers and dominate starting pitching.
But what caused this game to go the way it did? It was all Gardy and Vavra.
It doesn’t matter who the Twins are playing, the opposing pitcher is always a guy who should be in AAA and manager’s are solely responsible for a pitcher’s struggles.
There’s never any credit given to the opposing team. Even in the off chance that (heaven forbid) the other team played better that night.
I swear, it’s like being surrounded by Red Sox and Yankees fans.
We have plunked 4 guys this season. Tonight, not one Sox player was forced to even move his feet. Not saying getting into a bean-ball contest, but pitchers need to get guys off the plate. We have been hit 4 times this season. And we aren’t hitting HRs! Gomez, Morneau, Cuddy all have been plunked. Don’t think that was accidental.
t
both relievers bass and reyes were up and getting warm at the start of the inning. gardy could have done things differently if he had wanted to, like stalling and bringing someone in after the first home run. but thats besides the point. i would of rather seen someone else start the inning.
i just feel bad for perkins. did well and i’m excited for his next start!
*psst* Vavra was hitting coach in 2006
and? It’s not like the Twins won the World Series in 2006, did they? They did the same thing they did every time they reached the post season in the Gardy era. They sucked in the ALDS…
I just don’t get how and why a B average is interpreted as excellence for this team….
If Kubel gets on we will win.
Great post T!!!!!!
i dont know what gardy sees when he watches kubel at the plate, but im seeing nothing, nothing at all…not even a touch of emotion…the guy is dead….im tellin ya…he is dead
JP,
“gardy could have done things differently if he had wanted to”
I agree, but there is no guarantee that whatever choice he makes will succeed or fail until after the fact.
Maybe the first homerun was an isolated bad pitch. After HR#2, it looks like that assumption might have been wrong, but before HR#2, only Miss Cleo knew for sure.
and lamb continues his hot hitting…lol..
great assist by the speaker.
Way to hustle Lamb
*pfft* Well, obviously putting in Monroe was a mistake. What a stupid move by Gardy.
get em tomorrow…..its a shame 4 solos
In 2006, seven starters had career batting years, much better than in 2005 under another hitting coach.
That is close enough to excellence and good enough for Vavra to deserve to keep his job past 2008.
I love the Metrodome’s “Ortiz Rule”
at this point Lamb has a higher batting average than Kubel…
I was looking for a series split against Boston going into it. I still see that being possible. The pitching has kept it close for the most part. The key will be which starters the Twins could get to.
They got to Lester and fought back after the staff lost the lead. This was Matsuzaka on the mound and would be a tough win for anybody.
I think it’s Wakefield and…Bucholtz? The can get to one of them, it’s a matter of if the Twins starter can keep the ball in the park.
WE can’t beat the World Champions twice in a row?
The Sox are crappy!
If we can’t beat them whenever we want, it must be the manager’s/coach’s fault.
INCOMPETENCE!!!
Yeah, right.
you want to win 3 out of 4 at home…..split on the road…even if its boston…they are still just boston..
why does fsn interview the opposing teams…that sucks…who cares what they have to say….
You realize how lucky we are to be complaining about this? How about being a Royals fan…or God forbid a Pittsburg Pirates fan and not even having a winning season in like 30 years?
Am I the only one that thinks Boof is going to move to the pen? With the start Perkins just had and Baker coming back soon…I just have a hunch. I think he can be a starter but it is a numbers game and he has pen stuff. He can throw hard and can throw some nasty breaking balls.
Maybe Boof could be a top setup guy…who knows.
AaronK,
Boof could be a very good to great reliever. During the off season while Nathan’s situation was unsettled, I thought that he could potentially be this team’s next closer. Reminds me a bit of a couple of other guys who the Twins tried as starters with mixed results (albeit worse that those of Boof) and who ended up being very good relievers (who are they? I can think of 3 names right now… 2 of them still playing).
But
I am not sure whether he has the reliever make up. He sometimes has this nervous freaked out Frankie Viola look that just scares me…
The situation is that the Twins have way too many starters and as soon as Baker gets better and Liriano comes back, they will be 7-8 people for 5 spots. Something has to give. Do you make a trade for a bat, do you put some of them in the pen? Do you keep them down in the minors for another year?
Time will tell…
im not sure you ever have too many starters…finding the right combination of 5 guys to go and the rest stay in AAA- as we have already seen this year, you need about 8 or nine starters available at any time…..injuries seem to catch up to us very quickly, especially this year, but lets hope most of them stay short term and get neshek back next year….
Back from Dinner with a few observations. Bass, a long man on Monday, is pitching in crucial situations on Saturday. Korecky, a stalwart closer the last two years in AAA, comes in to mop up. How many times have you seen a Twins pitcher pitch high and tight or even inside in the near past. Answer, NONE!! It’s against Gardy and Anderson’s philosophy. I said it two weeks ago in TX after Morneau and Cuddyer got drilled in back-to back games with no response, Gardy lacks stones. Tom Kelly was a player’s manager who expected a lot but who protected his people. This crew is as vanilla as can be.
Thanks for the news “T” that Vavra was hitting coach in 2006 - we already knew that. And wow - we finished 19 of 30 in total bases. Ullger reign as hitting coach 2000 - 2005 and the Twins averaged 15 of 30 in total bases. During the Vavra reign (2006 - present) we average 24 of 30 in total bases. Players change and rosters change but over time - coaching approach will be shown in performance. We’ve seen enough of Vavra - unless you want to keep seeing innings with a walk and two hits resulting in the bases loaded. I’ll call Vavra to help my 9 yr old learn to make contact. Otherwise - let’s get a different big league view of hitting.
“Players change and rosters change”
And through it all the constant is that 20 out of 30 teams have better hitters in the lineup than the Twins-every year.
Even when AJ, Mientie, Rivas, Guzman, Koskie, Jacque, Mohr, Kielty, Lawton, and LeCroy left the Twins, they were still very ordinary hitters. Not like Jeter, ARod, Cano, Giambi, Abreu, Matsui, Damon, Posada and Melky.
Or Papi, Manny, Youkilis, Varitek, Lowell, Pedroia, Drew, Ellsbury and Crisp.
But we blame the hitting coach when our ordinary hitters hit 15th to 19th out of 30 teams.
Lamb, Monroe and Everett were not wanted by their previous teams. Harris, Young,Tolbert and Gomez are young.
Punto is Punto and Kubel is Kubel.
Mauer, Morneau and Cuddyer have some history, but that batting order isn’t the ‘27 Yankees.
Daniel,
you got a point… In the last white sox game, after that questionable slide that took Tolbert off second to break the double play, I was hoping that the next batter would get drilled. He didn’t. Actually, I could not remember the last time the Twins drilled a batter…
sane,
Papi, used to be a Twin. The same FO and manager who decided to give arbitration to Rincon and sing Punto to an extension (at $2.some mil a piece), declined to give arbitration ($1 mil would have done it) or sign Ortiz to a long term contact, because he did not ‘fit in with their small ball philosophy’. Do you think that Ortiz wouldn’t have accepted a long term deal half the size of what they gave Cuddyer this year back then?
btw, Harris is the same age as Morneau and 2 years older than Mauer…
Hey Sane - I’d love it if we hit 15 - 19th. If Vavra’s approach could help deliver that, extend his contract. It’s the detours to 26 and 27th that don’t work. The stats don’t lie - this is the performance of Vavra’s teams.
thrylos,
I should have used the term “inexperienced” on Harris.
No one, not even the Red Sox, expected Ortiz to become Ortiz.
My point was only that Twins hitters hitting 15th to 20th in MLB is about where seven ordinary hitters plus Mauer and Morneau should rank, even if Ronnie Lott was the “hitting” coach.
NoMore,
2008 batting stats -Twins rank 8th in MLB.
Extend Vara through 2018.
1. Boston Red Sox
AL 38 1309 193 380 88 4 35 185 581 145 243 32 5 .364 .444 .290
2. Atlanta Braves
NL 35 1214 173 344 67 7 36 165 533 130 185 15 3 .352 .439 .283
3. Chicago Cubs
NL 36 1280 205 359 81 5 36 194 558 168 254 25 13 .370 .436 .280
4. Los Angeles Dodgers
NL 35 1191 179 331 64 9 24 166 485 138 207 38 10 .355 .407 .278
5. St. Louis Cardinals
NL 38 1293 174 359 79 5 29 166 535 179 227 12 8 .368 .414 .278
6. Los Angeles Angels
AL 37 1256 173 338 62 6 38 165 526 103 218 32 11 .329 .419 .269
7. Arizona Diamondbacks
NL 37 1263 204 338 76 15 42 196 570 136 274 18 4 .343 .451 .268
8. Minnesota Twins
AL 34 1148 147 305 61 6 17 141 429 75 213 34 8 .311 .374 .266
The Ronnie Lott line is the best one of the night - most excellent!
Actually,if Ronnie Lott was the “hitting” coach, fewer people would be calling out the hitting coach.
Sane - thanks for the stats. Don’t deny the batting average thing. I’m looking at total bases. If you want to see three singles and a cloud of dust at home plate every so often - go for it. At $30 bucks a ticket - I’d like to see a double or even a home run more than every other game. You stick with the batting average stats and I’ll go for slugging %. And if you’re lucky enough to have the Boston ownership - you sign players who give you both.
NoMore,
It takes more money to sign sluggers than high averages hitters.
Thats why the Yankees, Red Sox, Tigers, White Sox and Angels have most of them.
And thats why the A’s like OBP and the Twins hit and run instead of hit home runs.
Sane,
The the Twins haven’t hit and run very much, or very successfully this year, and I’m almost willing to bet that they’ve hit and run more this year so far than they did all of last year. I know I have to be exagerating on that, but I seriously don’t remember more than 3 hit and runs all last season that were successful, and all of them were before June.
Sane - EXACTLY! The Pohlad’s are the richest owners in major league baseball. Do a little study in back issues of Forbes. Those teams don’t have the most money - they spend the most money. Carl’s net worth is more than two of those four team owners combined. Check out how many times those four teams have played in and or won the world series in the past five years.
I also thought it was a cute backhand at me with your sign Vavra to 2018 crack.
OB% is the only way this team is ever going to have a shot since it doesn’t have the power. Wear down pitchers, steal bases, hit and run, and play the small ball.
When I did my breakdown for the league before the season started. I had the Twins scoring about 149 more runs this season than they did last season thanks to the increase in power, and speed on the team. I had them winning 68 games because of their young pitching.
Looks like the Pitching is quite a bit better than I expected and the offense is quite a bit worse in all areas except OB%.
8th in hitting is nice… where out of the entire league do they fit on the chart for ON BASE PERCENTAGE? That is where it counts because walking prevents slumps, and tires out pitchers, and if people like Young and Gomez can be taught some patience at the plate their steal totals can double… In Gomez case if he has a .340 OB% for a season he could steal 100 bases.
NoMore,
That’s another issue.
I am simply saying that the Twins do what they have to do. (because of self-inflicted financial constraints- if you like)
The hitting coach, the rest of the field staff can’t teach that group of hitters to hit home runs. Its not what they do best. The guys who hit HR’s the best are beyond our self-inflicted financial constraints.
Thats not a bad PC term!
BC,
As much as you dislike holding a majority opinion, most commenters here agree with you about Vavra. So my crack about 2018 was directed at about fifty of you.
Sane,
I don’t care about majorities. I just care about being right. But I see your point. If by some chance I had that kind of influence on people I wish I could do that with the Timberwolves… because as much as I complain about the Twins… their problems to me are trying to make themselves a GREAT team. I don’t think they try to do that too much from a front office, and coaching stand point, but they have good enough talent, and good enough management and good enough coaching to be fun to watch almost all the time. Kevin McHale at this point in time… my god man. I would have to get political to try and compare him to someone I dislike (hate) more on the entire planet. Basketball is my 2nd love to baseball, and I wish I could get Minnesota to revolt against the Wolves until they are financially forced to move McHale out to the glue factory. Then they can take Wittless right the heck with him.
But I digress. I have a question. By bringing up Casilla after him not making the team out of spring training are they wasting an option on him, or since he’s on the 40 man roster does that already count as an option this year?
BC,
Here is one that was more directed toward you.
sane says:
May 10th, 2008 at 11:09 am
Gomez is now hitting .278 with .728 OPS.
Without even considering his improving numbers, just evaluate him visually.
How does his plate discipline and his swing NOW, compare to how they were on Opening Day?
If you can’t see a difference, you must have Low-Definition Television, or you need to get better seats at the Dome.
Who was his only hitting coach in that time period?
But that can’t be - Vavra knows nothing about hitting and can’t teach the little he does know.
That has to be true - I read it HERE!!!
Sane.
Why is it ok to be PC, and not be real? Don’t you think that the PC movement started by the damn tree hugging liberals has gotten out of control?
BC,
Casilla’s option for 2008 was used up when he was cut in ST.
He can go up and down daily the rest of the season and no additional options are added to his total.
One per year.
by PC I mean Pitch Count, not politically correct. The other part was just to put a smile on your face.
I knew that it was one option a year, but I wasn’t sure if it was used if they weren’t brought up or not. It had been something in the back of my mind for a long time, just never felt the need to ask the question til now. Thank you.
Your welcome.
And I know a little about pitch count and nothing about the other PC.
The option is used when sending a player on the 40-man-roster to the minors. (off the 25-man roster)
I don’t know what others have said but I did not say Vavra doesn’t know anything about hitting or coaching players. I said look at the stats over a period of time and rate his performance. We have seen the performance of a Vavra coached team for 2.25 seasons - do you like what you see. Don’t rate his performance after 130 Gomez at bats. As bad as his hitting discipline was at the beginning of the year, I would hope a coach could make a difference. This is Vavra’s job! The long-term data says his results are not good (regardless of the one or two game improvement we’ve seen with Gomez).
NoMore,
IMO Vavra’s stats (not skills) were good in 2006, bad in 2007, and bad but improving in 2008. Nearly all coaches get fired after bad seasons, even if those seasons follow good seasons. I object to that process, but I can’t stop it.
I don’t object to anyone saying his stats are suspect as you have. My objection is to the statement that he is a bad coach.
I have had 19 good seasons as a HS Head Coach and hitting coach and one bad season. I wasn’t sick physically or mentally that year and taught basically the same things every year.
My teams hit when we had good hitters and didn’t hit when we didn’t. The most variable of the variables is the hitter, not the hitting coach. My IQ is fairly constant. My players talent level is not a constant.
Small ball,
No one is going to back you up because I’ve beat this horse dead, and to a pulp and burned it to ash and let it blow in the breeze already. The Vavra protectors will protect him now because they would never want to show that I was right. They know I’m not nice and I would hold it over their heads for the rest of the history of this blog.
sane, the 2006 Twins offense, and the 2007 Twins offense was roughly the same team, at least until Terry “No Balls and 3 strikes” Ryan sold the team out and gave away Castillo for absolutely nothing… a future bullpen catcher (watch out Mark Salas wherever you are!) and an A ball outfield prospect that I can’t even recall his freaking name. He had a great week when he got here, and then disappeared like most Twins player’s bats did last year.
The hitters have performed to their level of talent. Only Lamb is slightly under achieving, but he is in an unfamiliar role as an everyday 3B. Cuddyer and Everett have been hurt. Redmond has played very little. The rest have all performed up to reasonable expectations. Gomez has probably exceeded expectations. Vavra has gotten the most out of, what he has had to work with.
BC,
“The Vavra protectors will protect him now because they would never want to show that I was right.”
I have no interest in whether YOU are right.
I am more interested in WHAT is right.
That is my motivation for defending a coach whose coaching ability can’t be evaluated independently of his players talent level. If you say his results are bad, you have a case. If you say his coaching skills are bad, you are speaking about something of which you have no knowledge.
I see Sane, it’s my wording that has you all up at arms. Are you sure you’re not a lawyer? lol.
OK… By the apparent lack of follow through shown by the players of the Minnesota Twins, and a lack of measurable growth in their performance it would APPEAR that Joe Vavra either lacks the talent to train the hitters properly, or the ability to gain their trust in order for them to start doing what needs to be done to become better more complete hitters.
Therefore as is the case in every other city except for Minneapolis where we keep losers like McHale and Childress for years and years, and Dick Such for a freaking decade too long… someone with Joe Vavra’s reletive lack of success, and weak resume would have been fired 3 or 4 times by now.
Maybe he’s a wonderful coach and the Twins are filled with idiots, or arrogant selfish jerks? It doesn’t appear that way, but even so… if you look at it from a teaching standpoint… you could have two teachers that teach the same thing, but teacher A doesn’t reach the kid, and Teacher B does… well in the Twins case… both A and B haven’t done a very good job with the hitters growing, and maturing, or developping higher baseball IQ’s… even Cuddy looks foolish more often than he should… It’s time for Joe Vavra to be at the very least a sacrificial lamb, and terminated.
Did I do a bit better? I probably poured it on a bit too thick, but I wanted to make sure that I got enough fly by punches in at Vavra’s track record as I possibly could.
When the Twins acquired Delmon Young, I said he would hit 8-9 HR. I am not at all disappointed in Delmon’s performance. He is performing up to his skill level, and doing an adequate job.
The guy who told me I was an idiot, and said that Delmon was going to hit 38 HR, is probably disappointed. He’s probably angry at Vavra. Vavra can’t perform miracles.
sane says:
May 10th, 2008 at 10:31 pm
“NoMore,
It takes more money to sign sluggers than high averages hitters.
Thats why the Yankees, Red Sox, Tigers, White Sox and Angels have most of them.
And thats why the A’s like OBP and the Twins hit and run instead of hit home runs.”
That post sort of sums it up. Baseball is like most things in life, you get what you pay for. Then, you do the best with what you have. Vavara has accomplished that.
BC,
That was better.
Craig,
“Then, you do the best with what you have. Vavara has accomplished that.”
Amen!
Craig. I wasn’t one who thought he’d hit 38 homers. I would need to go back through 7-11 weeks of blogs on here to get my exact prediction so if you can find it more power to you. But to have zero homers so far again at his size not acceptable. He has the size and power to hit homers just by hitting the ball hard. I think I said 22-26 homers myself, but I think he could at his frame and his bat speed pick up to 30-35 homer ability in the future, but he’s 22. If he hits less than .295, has less than 20 homers, and less than 75 RBI he had a BAD season for the Twins, and if Garza continues to pitch like he did most of last season, and this season… we are going to look foolish in that trade because you never trade a stud pitching prospect for a hitting prospect. Maybe for a veteran hitter, but never for a prospect. It’s kind of an unwritten rule. I’m not saying the Twins can’t buck the odds, and make something happen out of this, and that Delmon Young is terrible. They just should have been able to package 2-3 other pitching prospects in order to get Young not Garza
Twins have been known as “small ball” team (piranhas) and it is the philosophy of the coaches since the Tom Kelly days. Hitters are not encouraged to take swings, they are tought to “slap” the ball, get on base, run, steal, and play the fundamentals. It is their approach, and players such as Young, Lamb, Cuddyer, or even Mauer who could score a few more “dingers” are being timid at the plate. Being dead last in the majors with 17 homers while the average for MLB is 32 tells the story.
To Joshua B.
Here! Here!
The team hitting philosophy is pre-Vavra. Heck, they even wanted Ortiz to hit singles to the opposite field. They ruined Christian Guzman. Doesn’t Morneau, a true power hitter, look confused up there sometimes? I mean some of his at bats are sad. Cuddyer looks like he’s decided to swing or not even before the pitcher lets go of the ball. The team philosophy tries to mold players to fit it, instead of using a player’s strength to his and the team’s advantage.
I mean - Hear! Hear!
Can’t blame Gardy for wanting his starters (especially when they’re looking good) to get one more inning in. Somebody’s got to give the relievers a rest. Besides, what’s a pitcher doing in the majors if he can’t throw a hundred good pitches?
Memo to the Twins starters: Cowboy up!
joshua B.,
“Hitters are not encouraged to take swings, they are tought to “slap” the ball”
Could you furnish a reference or link for this information?
Thanks.
Has there been a corresponding move for AA/AAA yet? Bad timing for Luke Hughes since he is currently injured, but Trevor Plouffe deserves his chance to play SS for AAA.
I’d be interested to know what the twins do in the way of flexibility to supplement their strength and conditining program. Hamstrings and hip flexors (groin pulls) are preventable injuries. It seems every year we lose way too many players to muscle strains.
“even if its boston…they are still just boston..”
Yeah, they’re only the defending World Series Champion…and have a solid pitching rotation and an even more solid lineup.
And it’s not like they’ve been one of the best teams in baseball this season or anything.
biscuit,
I agree. Morneau does seem lost up there as he tries to hit all over the field. Just let the guy swing the bat and so what if he hits all those HRs for right field (or even hits)?
And once again-no way David Ortiz becomes Big Papi with the Twins. The Red Sox just let him swing the bat and look what it does for him.
Look out, the Indians are gonna take over the division race now - they just recalled Jason Tyner!
Sane:
Regarding my statement about “hitters being tought to “slap” the ball rather than taking swings”, I have no reference or link to support my argument, except for some commentary about Tom Kelly’s philosophy (in “Sports Illustrated”, I believe). It is a fact, though, ex-Twins hit more home runs with their new teams, while new Twins hit less home runs than their previous records. Sorry, but can not be more specific - it is my opinion forn having followed the team for over 20 years…
god help us all. Women and children first.
Many people have commented on the Twins woes offensively as an organizational problem regarding hitting philosophy. I believe that that is an accurate characterization. Whenever I hear the description of a Twins hitter as being “aggressive,” I know what he is going to be- a free swinger who will get himself out unless he has bucket loads of talent, e.g Oliva, Puckett. The Twins promote aggressive hitting which should mean aggressive with in the strike zone. Unfortunately, it means “swing hard and often in case you hit it.” Since the top five teams that saw the most pitches all made the playoffs last year, that should tell them that their organizational hitting philosophy is seriously flawed. For the last two years, they have had the worst of both worlds- no power and a low OBP. They don’t bunt well or often for that matter and their situational hitting is poor so they don’t manufacture runs either. They only score when they put together a whole string of hits. Firing Joe Vavra will not change that situation at all. If the goal is to have scapegoat, OK. But it won’t change the situation. By the way, Perkins should have been lifted after six while he still had a chance for a win.
Kubel is second on the team in homeruns and rbi’s, this power starved team can’t afford to get rid of him, the Tigers or yankees could, but the twins can’t
Joshua B.,
The only reason I ask is that (even in this thread) the Twins hitters are being simultaneously criticized because they are “not encouraged to take swings, they are tought to “slap” the ball” and for being told to “swing hard and often in case you hit it.”
I think you understand my confusion.
