Rincon lands with a division foe
Posted on June 24th, 2008 – 12:42 PMBy Joe Christensen
SAN DIEGO — After being released by the Twins last weekend, Juan Rincon today signed a minor-league deal with the Cleveland Indians.
He will throw a bullpen session today at Progressive Field (the ballpark formerly known as Jacobs Field) and then report to Class AAA Buffalo.
Cleveland has had bullpen issues all season, and they’re hoping Rincon can rediscover his form. He went 2-2 with a 6.11 ERA for the Twins this season.
The Indians also signed infielder Tony Graffanino to a minor-league deal.
175 Responses to "Rincon lands with a division foe"
Craig Breslow for Juan Rincon - pretty lopsided trade!
maybe Indians can take Lamb off our hands too!!!
Dang,
How did we miss out on signing this guy and letting Cleveland snap him up:
“He was a reliable setup man from 2003-06, putting together a 2.93 ERA in that time frame. He made more than 70 appearances in the 2004, ‘05 and ‘06 seasons, and his 81 holds from 2004-07 were the second-most in the American League in that four-year span.”
With luck, we may get to see Juanie again… Woohoo!
G,
Agreed…we were hoping he’d end up somewhere in the division so we could take advantage of the “Gas Man” a few times ourselves.
Are the Twins still on the hook for Rincon’s contract since he was picked up by another team?
I hope he pitches throws batting practice against the Twins soon. Even Delmon Young could hit for some power of Juanie.
You can never be sure that the Rincon of April-May is the only Rincon in that body.
There have been thousands of baseball rebirths after switching teams.
Rincon may NOT be done f-cking up the Twins - he may just continue the job in a Cleveland uniform, rather than in a Twins uniform.
The Twins pay Rincon’s contract MINUS what the Indians pay him. (the minimum)
Can anybody say another Casey Blake???
“There have been thousands of baseball rebirths after switching teams.”
We don’t even really need to look much further than another old Twins bullpen stalwart. J.C. Romero seems to have put things back together and is having another solid year for the Phillies.
the old “be careful what you wish for” adage comes to mind …
When is the next Cleveland/Twins series?
I look forward to an increased team BA by our guys.
Rincon should have been let go a year ago.
Or he could make the Indians, and then blow two 7th inning leads to the Twins in mid September, allowing our boys to tie the White Sox and make the post season in a one game playoff. Presto, worth every penny. 
“Can anybody say another Casey Blake???”
It also could snow later this month.
I am betting on the current Rincon is closer to what he will be in the future than the former one bulked up artifically. But, if he does light it up, I hope he does it against the whities and tigers.
Even though we’re on the hook for 90% of his salary, I’d still say Breslow for Rincon looks pretty good right now. Honestly, his salary is next to nothing in baseball terms.
“There have been thousands of baseball rebirths after switching teams.”
Kyle Lohse
If signing Tony Graffanino and Juan Rincon isn’t the baseball equivalent of waving the white flag, I don’t know what is.
signing Punto and Lamb to 3 year deals?
or signing Ponson to any kind of deal?
another jab at delmon.
interesting how so many media and bloggers think that wishing a player will morph into a different player will make it true. mauer has hit 13 hr 1 yr and young has hit 13 hr in a yr hardly what would be termed homerun hitters. but they are expected by some wish to become 20-25 a yr players. it’s like saying slowey throws a 92 mph fastball why can’t he throw 98? can’t be that hard just do it because we want you to.
Carlos G says:
June 24th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
“Can anybody say another Casey Blake???”
It also could snow later this month.
I knew it Carlos G I could smell the frozen rain coming soon.
“signing Punto and Lamb to 3 year deals?”
2-year deals, though at times it’s felt longer.
Anyway, anybody want to join me in a Commenter Pool?
The Over/Unders…
A) Somebody calls the release of Rincon “cheapness” on Pohlad’s part (1-week)
B) Somebody calls the release of Rincon “foolish” on Smith’s part (3-weeks)
C) Somebody calls the release of Rincon “the beginning of the end” for the Twins. (1.5 months)
D) Somebody actually gets what three 07 moves I’m referring to above. (2 hours)
Who said Rincon can’t help us this year?
T So how many names does Herb go by now? What are we up to?
I don’t think Kyle Lohse is a re-birth. He’s a pitcher who has ups and downs. He had them w the Twins too. The problem was he tended to have more downs than ups and he thought he was worth more than the Twins did.
Casey Blake, Jason Tyner, Juan Rincon, Marty Cordova can anyone think of some others that were Twins that ended up with Cleveland
So Joe Mauer has surpassed Jason Varitek–the most overrated catcher of all-time–in All Star voting.
Now that Go-go appears to be slumping a bit, perhaps it’s relevant to point this out, if things continue that way:
Mauer has 29 RBI in the 3-hole. By comparison, Alexi Casilla has 27 in about half as many at-bats in the two-hole (so this officially destroys all of the bogus arguments about how no one’s getting on base in front of Mauer to get him the RBIs, which we’ve been hearing for two years now)…
Mauer is also hitting .395 when leading off this season.
Just some food for thought…
matt lawton played with cleveland.
jimmy…
Bert Blyleven and Carl Willis (although as a coach)…
Blyleven
Otis Nixon played with Cleveland then went to us later in his career
Rincon was a stud for the Twins pre-2005, when he was suspended for steroids. His ERA’s since 2004:
2004: 2.63
2005: 2.46
2006: 2.91
2007: 5.13
2008: 6.11
You might say not much of a drop off from ‘05 to ‘06, but opponents’ BA increased from .224 to .270 in that timeframe, Slugging % increased from .274 to .337, and his K/9 decreased by two whole K’s.
I think it’s evident Rincon benefitted from steroid use, and you have to wonder why he’s been in Gardenhire’s doghouse for the past few years.
I wouldn’t worry too much about the Indians, sounds like they’re unloading Sabathia soon. It’s the Tigers I’d be worried about.
Jason Tyner is in the Indians system somewhere. I also recall Luis Rivas briefly getting a whif of big league air late last season with the Tribe.
“(so this officially destroys all of the bogus arguments about how no one’s getting on base in front of Mauer to get him the RBIs, which we’ve been hearing for two years now)…”
Except for the whole thing about Casilla taking Mauer’s RBI chances away. (It’s easier to get an RBI with runners on the corners vs. a runner at first).
But I do agree that if Gomez continues to slump that he could be slid to 9th and the rest of the lineup could be move up one ot make room (preserves Gomez/Casilla/Mauer/Morneau)
Though you have Cuddyer hitting 4th…
it was foolish to cut rincon and pay him all that money, when he could have sat on the bench taking up a spot. kind of looks like they are giving up and rebuilding with cheaper players. hope they use the money to give punto an extension, maybe 4 yrs, 12m.
send down young because he doesn’t hit homeruns and bring up span because he is a big homerun hitter, oh never mind.
T who was the old guy that pitched MR for the Twins who played till like he was 50 years old in the last couple of years
your thinking of Old Man Winter - Terry Mullholand
Fire yes thank you he went from Cleveland to the Twins. Of course he went to just about every team then to the Twins
“Except for the whole thing about Casilla taking Mauer’s RBI chances away. (It’s easier to get an RBI with runners on the corners vs. a runner at first).”
I hope that was a joke. Now it’s Casilla’s fault for taking Mauer’s RBIs away? Please stop yourself before you explode.
And by the way, the above statement really only applies to Joe Mauer, who as far as I can tell, is the only 3-hitter in baseball with 2 HR and 29 RBI. I don’t think having Casilla get on base all the time would prevent other 3-hitters from ’smellin’ more RBIs.
after koskie left casey blake would have been a lot better than the guys we’ve had play 3b.
Pat Borders was with Indians before he came to Twins Dustin Mohr was signed by Indians in 1997 released in 2000 when Twins picked him up in offseason
OK, why would Juan sign a minor league deal with them but not report to our AAA to work it out??? Was he pissed we let him go after a bizillion chances and he sucked!???? I don’t get this move at all.
Jason I don’t think Mauer should be batting 3rd either BUT the lineup formed so poorly there is noone else that can bat there - Cuddy should have been the guy but his career is in free fall right now.. Kubel doesn’t hit for a high enough average or take enough walks.. so until the next Puckett shows up Mauer is it.. we just have to hope he stops growing taller and starts developing some muscles to DRIVE the ball
Joe Holub: I’m guessing Rincon took the hint when he was *this* close to being traded to the Rays (which at the time would’ve been a downgrade)
How much you wanna bet they’re wiping their brow in Tampa and thinking “Phew, that was close.”
wow Chad Allen and Jack Cressand went to Indians after the Twins
i like to complain as much as the next guy but we are 4th in al in runs scored which +/- = rbi. so maybe there is to much complaining about things that aren’t that bad.
hope punto starts tonight he could add some of that much needed homerun punch.
I find it amusing that this whole “OMG MAUER 3RD!” thing has once again reared it’s ugly (and frankly downright boring) head.
Jason’s right. The guy with all kinds of homers and RBI should be hitting 3rd. Not the guy who can get on base the most.
So let’s put Kubel there! (10 HR!)
Oh wait, Jason hates Kubel too.
Joe Holub,
“OK, why would Juan sign a minor league deal with them but not report to our AAA to work it out???”
OPPORTUNITY!
The Indians bullpen is in need of MLB help.
The Twins bullpen is NOT in need of MLB help.
“hope punto starts tonight he could add some of that much needed homerun punch.”
I’m just hoping Gardy and the Twins figure out whatever’s causing this bizarre win streak and fix it soon.
Otherwise all of the whiners and cryers are going to run out of things to moan about (see: Mauer 3rd) and stop watching.
The Twins must lose to gain readership!
So let me get this straight on Rincon…
He was picked up by the Indians. So in part the Twins are paying his salary to play for Cleveland.
Meanwhile, the Twins claimed Breslow (it was claimed right?)…so the Indians are helping pay his salary?
At worst, we have a wash!
thank you T we can always count on you to be the “hall monitor” of these blogs
Jason,
Like “Newman” from the Seinfeld show, the Mauer in the 3-hole issue is EATING,EATING,EATING at you as your sanity is SLIPPING,SLIPPING,SLIPPING away.
Give it up.
Gomez,Casilla, Mauer and Morneau has worked great, BUT YOU CAN’T LET GO!!!
CAN YOU????????
Sorry, I did my best.
T just a small problem with your logic Rincon is making 2.1M while Breslow is only making 392K Twins are shelling out alot more money then Indians in this exchange
You know what I can’t get enough of?
Complaining about how terrible our all-star catcher is.
Not enough HR… Not enough RBI… OBP isn’t sexy… He’s 6′5″ hit it over the fence…
It never gets old.
How about leading the team w/ 46 runs scored? Is that sexy enough?
Gardenhire seems to have a habitual affection for Punto, regardless of how he plays. He ends up in most games and starts far too many that end up in losses for the team. The Twins winning streak will soon end because Punto is back on the roster and Gardenhire has a problem understanding statistics.
A close 2nd… Batting order… Yawn…
T,
“At worst, we have a wash!”
Not really.
We are paying more money for Rincon to pitch in Cleveland than the Indians are paying Breslow to pitch in Minnesota.
Its a money-loser.
FIRE,
Sorry!
You beat me to the draw.
How do you figure. Rincon is guaranteed money. We’re paying him either way. You can’t count sunk costs when making a decision about marginal utility.
wally,
Finish your meds!
When are the Twins going to replace Mr. Gardenhire with a manager who knows how to manage to win championships. Gardenhire would be a good minor league coach, perhaps. He certainly does not do much of anything for the team. The Twins have the best talent in baseball, and he can barely manage to break even in the W-L column. He should resign for the good of the team.
I love how everyone on the blog hates each other.
I don’t know anyhing about suck costs.
He’s going to replace the old Juan Gone in Cleveland but not in the same way.
Since we seem to have an outstanding relationship with Cleveland why don’t we see what they would give us for some of the folowing players. Everett, Lamb, Kubel, Monroe, Boof, and DY
wally, herb, herby,tommy, sybil, eve,
Could I see all of you in the conference room right now?
BC I found Beneke and jama on another blog but this time it is the basketball blog. HMMMMMM…. Betraying the Twins for the horrible McFailure Wolves
If anyone noticed, the article linked here described Rincon as a left-hander. Hopefully he will have the same luck as a left-hander for Cleveland as he did right-handed for the Twins this year.
that’s SUNK costs - but SUCK costs is true!! because RINCON SUCKS he COSTS the Twins money..
Aw shit.
The jig is up!!!!
Fire lol
What I don’t understand, to this day, is why the Tribe let go of Breslow when the rest of their bullpen is in such poor shape. It must have been a matter of Wedge not trusting him (in the same way that Gardy didn’t trust Bass forever) keeping him from playing enough to demonstrate. Hell, Gardy doesn’t seem to trust him either.
“Its a money-loser.”
Curse you sane, you made me drop my glasses. And I had them all rose-colored and shiny too!
jimmy thats hilarious they must be very hard up for something to bitch about.
Jefe That reminds me a friend of mine said that during a CWS game one of the pitchers actually tried switching from throwing left handed to right handed. Did anyone else hear about that?
look back in recent history say last 10 years there are alot of Twins that found their way to either Cleveland(which we already documented) and also KC!
MINK, Joe Mays come quickly to mind
I don’t think the Twins manager Gardenhire is doing very well. He is grossly overweight and his nose is occassionally bright red. He may have an eating disorder of some sort due to the fact that he is a poor manager when it comes to writing the lineup card out. The guy can barely make it to the mound and sets a very poor example for the team by being in such poor condition. His medical condition of obiesity seems to be making his work more difficult for him. You would think the Twins organization would take some interest in trying to keep him healthy or at least improve his hideous appearance on the field.
“If anyone noticed, the article linked here described Rincon as a left-hander.”
Boy, that could make for one AWKWARD call to the bullpen…
Wedge: “Quit fooling around Rincon and get you glove on the right hand. We need you to go out there and get Morneau out!”
“why the Tribe let go of Breslow”
IMO, They thought (incorrectly) that he would pass through waivers, while some of the better known Indian relievers would not.
walt:
I think you’ve got our guy confused w/ Lou Piniella.
“Did anyone else hear about that?”
I think they had that on Sportscenter one night. It was a switch-handed pitcher against a switch hitter. And the two kept swapping back and forth…
sane, if that’s true, maybe they should think some of their other lesser-known players would pass through wavers… we could use a couple more!
walt,
Please report to the conference with all the others!
You are already there?
ooohhhh mmmmyyy gooodddd a faaaat kankle ladddy jusst walkeddd by meeee.
Oh great, now I caught the bug…
I don’t think so Bison. Pinella is much more intelligent!
sane can I send some midwestern kankle ladies out to long beach to scare away all the beach goers
I think that everyone who is upset about the Twins still having to pay Rincon’s salary should actually give the Twins some credit for eating a contract and moving on. Usually everyone is all over the Twins because they are cheap - on this one they didn’t do the cheap thing and people are still upset. Face it, Rincon sucked the last few years and needed to go - and they got rid of him. Good job Twins!
“thank you T we can always count on you to be the “hall monitor” of these blogs”
Like I say time and time again. I’ve got nothing against crabby whining.
It’s inconsistent crabby whining that tends to rile me up. (Example: Where have all the Vavra haters gone?)
And here I thought the conversation was about waist size and alcoholism. My bad.
“I find it amusing that this whole “OMG MAUER 3RD!” thing has once again reared it’s ugly (and frankly downright boring) head.
Jason’s right. The guy with all kinds of homers and RBI should be hitting 3rd. Not the guy who can get on base the most.
So let’s put Kubel there! (10 HR!)
Oh wait, Jason hates Kubel too.”
The Blog Moniter comes up with a good one. Hahaha. I was laughing pretty good there T.
Right now the Twins have won 6 in a row. Any person wanting changes should pull their lip over their head and swallow. That include the person with the power, GARDY! No changes!
“Mauer has 29 RBI in the 3-hole. By comparison, Alexi Casilla has 27 in about half as many at-bats in the two-hole (so this officially destroys all of the bogus arguments about how no one’s getting on base in front of Mauer to get him the RBIs, which we’ve been hearing for two years now)…”
Not really. Alexi Casilla is hitting a ridiculous .452 with runners in scoring position. He has been amazing. There is little chance, however, that he is going to keep that up.
Mauer, on the other hand, has also been great with runners in scoring position. He is hitting .322 with runners in scoring position. That’s actually a point higher than Josh Hamilton, who is leading the majors in RBI.
Mauer is probably best suited as a 2 hitter, or even lead off. He gets on base a ton, and doesn’t have a high slugging percentage. Mauer also has fewer plate appearances with runners in scoring position and runners on base than most other 3-hitters.
So part of the problem is Mauer doesn’t hit for a high slugging percentage on base, which gets fewer RBI’s. But there are also fewer opportunities for him to do so.
Sorry, guys…I will argue that Mauer is not a 3-hitter from now until eternity if he continues to put up his less than 10 HRs, less than 60 RBI numbers….just the way it is…not the end of the world, though; there’s more than one way to skin a cat, I guess.
As for Jason Kubel, I do not hate him…I want him to succeed, I do, I do, I do…however, tonight will be the start of 3-for-20 if they play him in five straight games…just my prediction….I hope I’m wrong…heck, maybe I will be…maybe he comes up with a huge game tonight…as for my big offseason prediction–that Mike Cuddyer would suffer further regression following his big contract–sadly, that seems to have been dead-on. When can we expect him to turn it up?
We’re in good shape now…I’m happy…6 in a row, baby! We’re gonna continue this NL dominance and I can’t wait for the weekend when get the Brewers again!!! At the same time, I think my takes on Mauer and Kubel are valid…if you’re going to endlessly drop down to your knees for these guys, you have to paint the whole picture.
So Juan Rincon will take an AAA assignment with the Indians but won’t take one with the Twins? That doesn’t make sense. The organization did everything they could to try to let him get out of his funk, most players don’t get a 2 year grace period.
Wally,
“The Twins have the best talent in baseball”
Let me guess, you live in Kansas City and the only other team you’ve seen play is the Royals.
What ever happened to LPN 4 Life. Hmmmmm….
Mauer’s hitting .331 all in so, IF it meant anything, you could say he’s underperforming w/ RISP.
Pete…please stop with the ‘fewer opportunities’ garbage…that argument is dead and buried…we all know that’s code for “If a single won’t produce an RBI, Mauer is at a built-in disadvantage”.
Yes he is a lead off or 2-hitter, we get it, no shame in that….
“Mauer, on the other hand, has also been great with runners in scoring position. He is hitting .322 with runners in scoring position. ” That’s 9 points less than his overall average, in case you didn’t notice.
He’s hitting .395 as a lead-off hitter.
sane can I send some midwestern kankle ladies out to long beach to scare away all the beach goers. They can crush beer cans with there feet and then run them over to Ralphs
Chances LNP starts tonight?
I say 100 percent. You know it’s going to happen, guys, right?
Here is an interesting stat to sink your teeth in for the occasion of the current road trip:
Twins 2008: Home ERA 3.32, Road ERA 5.69
MLB 2008: Home ERA 3.89, Road ERA 4.48
AL 2008: Home ERA 3.81, Road ERA 4.45
NL 2008: Home ERA 3.96, Road ERA 4.52
It has been clear that pitching has been the main issue with this team and not batting. Now it looks like the issue is not the pitchers themselves (because if a team can have a 3.32 home ERA and follows league average trends it should have a road 3.91 ERA instead of the atrocious 5.69). I did some analysis (if you care read the last 3 posts on my blog at the link on my name for numbers, stats etc) and if this team was pitching on the road as every other team, it would have been +5 in wins and play at a rate of .592 baseball. This means a 96 win season. It is clear that there is something wrong in the preparation of the pitchers when the team travels and this is the fault of Gardy, Anderson and the travel staff. There is still time to identify and fix things. That is what the FO and upper management of the team should be focusing on and not on acquiring a savior or 2. I hope that someone on the FO has actually seen those splits and done something about it…
Are those park adjusted numbers?
park adjusted numbers? No. But a 2.37 ERA differential would still be high. If you assume that the Twins played their home games at the most pitcher friendly park (which they don’t) and all their road games in the most pitcher unfriendly park (which they didn’t) the 2.37 differential would be like 2.07, which is still huge. The ML average is 0.59, so this team practically starts every road game down 2-0
thrylos, keep in mind that the ERA on the road could be inflated by that disasterous series at the Cell.
I should add I’m not trying to argue the numbers, just trying to help figure it out.
T, it’s not a single series and my measurements about the win differential is based on single player ERA differential and participation in specific games…
Jason
Yes we’ve heard you. I agree with you that Mauer is not a prototypical number 3 hitter. I personally believe that Mauer should bat second. TWO THINGS: The Twins don’t have options like other teams. If Mauer hits in the second spot and Morneau bats third, who bats fourth? Cuddy? Kubel? They’re not prototypical number 4 hitters. And so on. So you’re arguement, no matter how valid, is too simplistic. A better question is who would be a better choice and how would that affect the rest of the lineup? Until you answer that, your rants are pointless and trite.
Second point. The Twins are on a 6 game winning streak. Anyone arguing or calling for changes should pull their lip over the head and swallow. HA!
“I say 100 percent. You know it’s going to happen, guys, right?”
Oh I hope so. And I hope Mauer is batting 3rd. Or even better…..REDMOND!
Oh man, then we’ll definately have a PARTY in the commenting section tonight. It gets so dull and lifeless when the Twins are winning.
Thanks thrylos… I don’t have your brain for numbers, and what you did makes a LOT of sense.
And by the way, the above statement really only applies to Joe Mauer, who as far as I can tell, is the only 3-hitter in baseball with 2 HR and 29 RBI.
A new low for you Jason. Rod Carew was the best number three hitter this team ever had. In 1977, as a number 3 hitter, he hit thus:
455 PA 86 R 157 H 25 2B 11 3B 10 HR 66 RBI 50 BB .394/.460/.588
You might look at that line and say, well, not enough home runs! He sucks! In so doing, you demonstrate your own lunacy.
here is the single player splits ranked by increasing home ERA if you care:
Joe Nathan: Home ERA 0.86,Road ERA 2.79
Dennys Reyes: Home ERA 1.32,Road ERA 4.00
Matt Guerrier: Home ERA 1.46, Road ERA 5.74
Jesse Crain: Home ERA 1.47, Road ERA 4.72
Pat Neshek: Home ERA 1.29,Road ERA 8.53
Nick Blackburn: Home ERA 2.20, Road ERA 5.06
Scott Baker: Home ERA 2.28,Road ERA 4.60
Brian Bass: Home ERA 3.20, Road ERA 6.95
Juan Rincon: Home ERA 3.68,Road ERA 8.78
Livan Hernandez: Home ERA 3.86, Road ERA 7.00
Kevin Slowey: Home ERA 4.71,Road ERA 4.17
Glen Perkins: Home ERA 4.98,Road ERA 3.32
Francisco Liriano: Home ERA 5.40,Road ERA 16.88
Boof Bonser: Home ERA 5.73,Road ERA 8.55
Bobby Korecky: Home ERA 6.00,Road ERA 2.45
So the sample size is getting smaller, still?
The differential seems quite large, too large to ignore, but if we’re then going back and making adjustments based on individual pitcher and game participation I think that your answer as far as the W/L impact could get quite skewed.
sane can you call T into the conference room with Herb,Wally, Mary ANN, John Boy, and the gang? he is missing his meeting
Oh I hope so. And I hope Mauer is batting 3rd. Or even better…..REDMOND!
Oh man, then we’ll definately have a PARTY in the commenting section tonight. It gets so dull and lifeless when the Twins are winning.
Let’s throw Lamb in at third and Punto at second. Redmond is definitely in, but he should bat second, since speed is his gift.
All joking aside, I am 90% sure we will see Lamb and Punto tonight, whether pinch-hitting or starting (although I say let Slowey hit after that brewers series).
thrylos - as I posted on your blog, I was going to criticize you for leaving out Breslow, but then realized that his ERA is 0.00 since he came from the Indians. I wish we could see more of him, but gardy likes his other guys more.
LOL none of you get me. We’re talking about an All-Star. An All-Star…we’re not talking about your average catcher or your average 3-hitter…we’re talking about an All-Star. We’re talking about the AL’s starting All-Star Catcher…
And although I agree we really don’t have any other 3-hitter options at the moment, I’m not convinced Gardy would even entertain any other options–I think he’s convinced that Mauer is this team’s number 3 hitter, the way Puckett was in his time. With that, why is it so wrong to ask for more? Why is it so wrong to ask for an All-Star 3-hitter to muster up more than 10 HR and 60 RBI??? I like the .330 avg., don’t get me wrong…but remember…Puck hit .318 for his career and he didn’t seem to have trouble driving in runs…and he was fast…and he was good defensively…and he was, well, he was clutch…clutch like an All-Star 3-hitter should be.
I don’t think these things are unreasonable to point out…
And lest you guys forget, Jon Miller, Dan Shulman, and Steve Phillips brought up these exact same points when the Twins were playing on ESPN…so I suppose they are unfair and unreasonable as well?
“How do you figure. Rincon is guaranteed money. We’re paying him either way. You can’t count sunk costs when making a decision about marginal utility.”
Yay for bisonaudit!
“So let me get this straight on Rincon…
He was picked up by the Indians. So in part the Twins are paying his salary to play for Cleveland.
Meanwhile, the Twins claimed Breslow (it was claimed right?)…so the Indians are helping pay his salary?
At worst, we have a wash!”
T, that is incorrect. By claiming Breslow off of waivers, we agree to pay his full contract. In his case it is moot as he is making league minimum.
Rincon cleared waivers before he was DFA. If he would have been claimed, the other team would’ve assumed the remainder of his contract. Since he wasn’t claimed and refused the assignement, the Twins are responsible for the remainder of his contract (what he is signed for with a new team).
You are wrong Jason. If you remember the start of the season Gardy had a different lineup, Mauer was batting second. Cuddy’s injury and lack of performance is why Mauer was moved and is still batting 3rd. If you want a different person to bat third, explain who and how it would make the lineup better. If you want Mauer to morph into something he’s not (Puckett or a power hitter), then I suggest you go get a rock and stare hard at it and wish it into gold or some other precious metal. Come back and post when you’ve got about an ounce of newly morphed gold.
So … what are the chances Mike Lamb gets cut/traded within the week?
tyler, I would say not great for him to get cut. The Twins are really good at giving players last shots to save themselves. Remember Rincon? He got, I swear, thirty chances, to break out of his slump before they even tried to put him on waivers.
As for trading? I would like the move, even if it is for PTBNL. I covet Lamb’s roster spot almost as much as I covet cake.
And I’m a man who likes his cake.
JP–the Mauer batting second thing was NEVER given a chance…no one here other than you will argue any differently…
Mauer was our 3-hitter last year, he was our 3-hitter in 2006…sense a pattern here?
As I said earlier, I don’t want a different person batting third…I agree Mauer’s the best option right now. That said, he’s a less-than-average number 3 option, to put it mildly. And eventually, if Casilla isn’t driving in runs at his torrid pace or if Go-go’s avg. drops below .270, that will catch up to this team. Right now everything is clicking, so there’s no reason to panic–but I point this out because the Twins should not be afraid to consider moving Mauer and I actually think they would be very reluctant to do so under just about any circumstance.
I also don’t think it’s unfair to ask for more from Mauer…right now he’s the same hitter Brian Harper was in 1991…and no one would ever argue that Harper was our best hitter then; no one would ever hand him the throne of the 3-hole, unquestioned.
Glad to see that Rincon is at least being given a chance to turn it around.
He was a good pitcher, and seemed to fall apart.
After his stint this year with the Twins, I am sure that he wants to get back out there, and prove that he is still a major-league pitcher, and the Indians are at least going to give him the chance.
I hope that he is lights out against our foes, just not against the Twins.
has hit.301 in last 30 days with 18 RBI’s in 26 games - some free fall. 48 players in the Majors hit for a higher ave
“Pete…please stop with the ‘fewer opportunities’ garbage…that argument is dead and buried…we all know that’s code for “If a single won’t produce an RBI, Mauer is at a built-in disadvantage”.”
Actually, it is real. I’m sorry, but it just is. I couldn’t find a website that did it for me, so I just calculated the OBP of the 8-2 hitters for the AL Central squads. I opted for those hitters because I figured they would be the ones most likely to be on base for the number 3 hitter for each team. Here’s how it came out :
Minnesota - .309
Chicago - .331
Cleveland - .325
Kansas City - .307
Detroit - .331
And, in case you didn’t notice, the Royals number 3 hitter, Alex Gordon, has a whole 32 RBI. That’s 3 more than Joe Mauer, in 42 more at bats.
Again, I agree with you. Mauer should be in the 2 hole. He doesn’t hit for enough power to be a prototypical 3 hitter. But part of the reason for his low RBI totals are the lack of people on base for him.
Cuddyer
again Jason you have beaten the horse to a bloody pulp - “we know Mauer is not a real #3 hitter” please also acknowledge there is not a better #3 batter on the roster right now! that’s not Gardy’s fault it’s Billy SMith and the mess he and Terry Ryan created over the years with having only Monrneau and a pile of PLANKTON - (little fish hitters)until Kubel emerges or Cuddy wakes up there is no one!
Jonas
I don’t like cake as much as you, but Lamb’s spot should be given to Macri. A PTBNL, and I would suggest picking up part of his contract, say the amount owed for rest of year. Then we are clear for next year when:
Punto
Rincon
Lamb
Everett
Monroe
Livan
all of their contracts come off the book. by my rough estimation that is just under 18 million?
Moving Mauer out of the three spot only makes sense if it is to put a right-handed slugger in either the three or four slot, which we don’t have right now.
Mauer needs to have Morneau behind him to protect him and make sure he gets good pitches. A major reason that Mauer’s avg and OBP are so high is that pitchers know he won’t swing at pitches out of the strike zone and pitchers won’t play on the corners at the risk of Morneau coming up with runners on. Pitchers are throwing pitches for Mauer to hit, hoping he gets himself out.
If both Mauer and Morneau get moved up a spot, then who goes behind Morneau? Cuddy? Nah, I like my clean-up guy with more than 3-4 homers. Kubel? Nah, don’t want other teams to be able to bring in a lefty specialist for the three straight lefties. Delmon? Hah!
If we move the lineup “up” one spot for everyone and put Gomez ninth, then we really haven’t changed anything, except to put someone who at least has the chance to be on base with every ground ball to short in a place where he has less at-bats. I know he’s slumping now, but I think he needs to get through his growing pains where they are. In addition, Gomez is the only player that I have seen this year (at least) that out-ran the first leg of a double play AND broke up the second leg with a slide. Flashes of brilliance.
Make no mistake, no way should Mauer stay in third for any longer than the lineup necessitates. If Cuddy or Delmon heats up, then I’d say the ol’ lineup deserves another looking-at. But for now, don’t mess with what is (improbably) a good thing.
JP Lamb has a two year deal.
JP ~ next year looks really good… at least in terms of the deadwood we can get rid of. I like Lamb (and I really like his sense of humor), and I think he could be a good pinch-hitter and backup first/thirdbaseman/catcher for some National League team.
Personally, I’ll hate seeing him go, but it is best, both for the Twins, for Lamb, and the commenters on this board’s collective blood pressures.
“JP–the Mauer batting second thing was NEVER given a chance…no one here other than you will argue any differently…”
Check out the game log for the beginning of the season. Every single game Mauer started he bat in the number two spot. It wasn’t until Cuddy was injured that Mauer was moved into the number three spot. So you are making blanket statements that are FALSE.
Again I don’t know what you are trying to prove? Move Mauer when a better option develops. Ok. Agreed. Are you done yet?
Yes BC I know that Lamb has a two year contract. REREAD my 3:39 post. My post clearly stated that I would like to trade him for a PTBNL and pay for part of his contract equaling the rest what is owed for this year contract. If he was traded we would no longer be responsible for next year’s contract.
I’m not necessarily a big fan of this idea myself, but I feel like it could help the Twins out in the long run.
The only reason Michael Cuddyer is perceived as a “big bat” (well, WAS perceived” was because he had a great season batting between Mauer and Morneau in 2006. The constant stream of speed on base in front of him and protection with Morneau behind him led to extremely inflated numbers.
I don’t think anyone will question that Delmon Young’s ceiling is infinitely higher than Cuddyer’s, regardless of how frustrated they must be with his struggles.
Still, if it worked for Cuddyer to build a reputation, why not at least experiment with DY hitting third between them for a little bit? He’s batting .309 in the month of June, and it can’t hurt to give him more protection than Lamb/Harris/Buscher/Macri. He’ll get a healthy dose of fastballs to drive, and if he struggles much, they can move him back down in the order after 7-10 days.
It would be a great confidence-builder for him. Like him or not right now (which I do, but I understand a lot of people don’t), he’s a tremendous part of this organization’s future. A few years back, people were complaining that Morneau was never going to make it either, and that he was always going to be a .230 hitter with 15-20 HR. Seems like his potential is being realized… I have complete faith that Delmon’s will too.
For clarity’s sake… by “between them” I meant Mauer and Morneau, obviously.
I don’t think there’s much in the home/road pitching splits. After taking a look at the rest of the teams, this stuff is highly variable. Dodgers are giving up 133% more HR on the road than at home (still 62% after park effect) Angeles are giving up 31% fewer HRs on the road than at home (still 31% after park effect. Twins home road HR split is 12th worst before park effect and 10th best after. Basically the same story with walks. (marginally below average before park effect, marginally above after). We are not strikeing anyone out on the road though, 6th worst split in baseball.
If there’s a systemic problem with preperation why would it manifest itself in only one of the major defense independent stats?
Protection is over rated, in line up construction. There are other areas of life where’s it under rated.
ok try to remember why the Twins brought in players like Lamb, Livan and Monroe to begin with.
1.The Twins didn’t have an everyday 3B that was ready in AAA and don’t give Buscher that job just yet.
2.The Twins had no idea that there young pitchers would do as well as they have and they still don’t know if they can continue to pitch well.
3. Even though Kubel had a descent second half last year the DH spot was a disaster and since he’s been freed he’s been very inconsistent.
Steve from Fridley
I’m all for it! I have no problem with this lineup.
Casilla
Mauer
Young
Morneau
Cuddy
Kubel
Harris
Buscher
Gomez
We only do this after the current hot streak is over. Because anyone who says we should change anything right now; should take their lip, pull it over their head and swallow. HA
“every single game” JP? Don’t skew the facts…”every single game” was precisely 4 games. 4 games.
And never again did Mauer see the 2-hole, even upon Cuddy’s return from injury.
So I agree this is a tireless argument in that all of us on this blog seem to agree that in a perfect world Mauer would bat 1 or 2. It’s not, however, a tireless argument in this respect–Mauer is widely regarded as our best hitter and the organization believes he is the 3-hitter; but I beg you to look back and compare Mauer’s 2007 with Brian Harper’s 1991 and ask yourself if this is the standard we want our best hitter held to?
BC
I’ve defended the Everett, Lamb, Monroe, Livan signings. Especially Livan. I think he’s already earned his money. He gave up veteran leadership, vital when Liriano got sent back down and Baker was injured. Anything we get more from him is gravy in my opinion.
But just because I think they were good singings dont’ mean I think they should be kept the rest of this year or next.
Heck, you could make the argument that Mauer’s best season with the Twins was 2004 when he hit .308 with 6 HR and 17 RBI in 107 AB…granted, you might call those numbers the product of pitchers seeing him for the first time, but those are the kind of numbers that will get you saying, “hey, this guy is our best hitter–get him in the three hole and turn him loose”
Go Twins tonight!
Here’s hoping I look bad as Mauer collects RBI’s number 30, 31, and 32 and Kubel goes 3-for-4!
but (cringe) keep LNP on the pine, pleaaaze….(RRRRT, not gonna happen)
“Especially Livan. I think he’s already earned his money.”
Absolutely he has!
I think I’ll take the year he won the batting title and finished 6th in the MVP vote.
Mauer’s worse season OPS+ 107. Harper’s average OPS+ 102.
The problem isn’t that Brian Harper is the standard. The problem is some people seem to think Babe Ruth should be the standard.
“Especially Livan. I think he’s already earned his money.”
There’s a great book that just came out in paperback. It’s called ‘fooled by randomness’. You should check it out.
Oh I agree that while things are working, we absolutely leave the lineup as is. However, I think it’s unrealistic to expect Casilla and Buscher to continue at this rate, and Harris is starting to swing a hot bat too right now.
Things will cool down, no mistake about it. I think it’s something worth trying in the future though. After all, based on the type of player Young’s supposed to turn into, he’d be a #3-type hitter anyway, as long as he could learn a little discipline.
Won’t happen though… Gardy loves Mauer in that 3 spot way too much for some reason. Blagh.
this is what we want out of our 3 hitter:
57 hr, 133 rbi, 119 runs, .281 ave, .377 obp, .654 slg.
now go dig up roger maris and time machine him to 1961 and we have a winner!
oh wait that would be 3 lefties in a row can’t do that.
Justin Morneau had a 3-21 stretch this year, and a 1-16 stretch, I don’t think he should be playing every day.
Morneau in Moderation!
Livan has been unspeakably horrible and bailed out by some great offensive support when he goes out and coughs up 6 or 7 runs to the other team.
I don’t care how he pitched in his last two starts, he was facing two pathetic offenses. Here’s hoping he can put up one or two more good starts to build some trade value, and the Twins ship him off for whatever they can get to make room for Liriano!
As for tonight, let’s hope Slowey’s got some confidence built up and pitches like he’s capable of. Pretty weak offense in the Padres…
Jason
My statement was:
Mauer started every single game in the number two spot of the games he started until Cuddy got hurt. Is this an inaccurate statement? We don’t know what would have happened if Cuddy stayed healthy. My belief is Gardy would have stayed with it until it was proved to not work. We can agree to disagree.
The problem with your posts are you seem to state your opinion and opinions of others (which is absurd) as universally accepted truths. You come accross as a moron because of it.
Here are some of your posts where you claim to know what others would say and believe:
“Mauer is widely regarded as our best hitter”
“no one here other than you will argue any differently”
Really? Wow how insightful of you! I’ve never heard a discussion of the best Twins hitters without Morneau being brought up. And fact I’m sure if you polled GMs and scouts throughout baseball you would get many that say Mauer and many that would say Morneau. So keep stating your opinions as what they are. your opinions.
i do agree LNP should not start.
Honestly, all I want out of our 3-hitter is someone who will take a big cut on a 1-0 or 2-1 fastball, rather than take it to try to work the count.
If that’s Mauer’s approach at the plate, that’s great, but I’d rather see him swing in hitters’ counts or even - GASP - at the first pitch if he’s gonna bat third.
He gets a fastball down the middle every time anyway, since pitchers just assume he’s taking. Start to take advantage of it, Joe!
“but I beg you to look back and compare Mauer’s 2007 with Brian Harper’s 1991 and ask yourself if this is the standard we want our best hitter held to?”
Well, if Brian Harper had got on base at the clip that Mauer is now, he would have been close to the best hitter on the 1991 squad.
Mauer didn’t have a great year last year. But 2 years ago, he was amazing. This year, he has an OPS+ of 136. It looks like last year may have been due to injury and that the “normal” Joe Mauer might be the guy we are seeing now?
If you go by OPS+, Joe Mauer is the most valuable Twins hitter this year. He also leads the team in batting average, on base percentage, and runs scored. He also ranks 3rd on the team in slugging percentage.
If it’s any consolation JP, I completely agree that Morneau is a better hitter than Mauer. He’s the cornerstone of the offense. Notice how everyone’s numbers (Baby Jesus Joe Mauer included) when they bat in front of him? Mauer struggled to start the year with Cuddles behind him instead of Justin.
And as long as people are discussing bad signings, poor 3B production, and we’re in San Diego… The Pads have said they will shop Kouzmanoff now that Chase Headley’s been called up. Seems like they need a leadoff hitter/CF for the future, and Denard Span has virtually no place in this organization anymore…
Just wishful thinking on my part, of course, but man would that ever be nice…
Another steriods made player goes boom. Good riddens Juan!
Re: Mauer.
He leads every player ever to wear the Twins or Senators uniform in OBP, as well as every major league catcher. EVER.
he is not the problem
and that’s career OBP
Paul Sorrento
by my rough estimation that is just under 18 million?
Here are the suck (sic) costs:
Hernandez: $5 mil
Monroe: $3.82 mil
Lamb: $6.7 mil (two years plus option buyout)
Everett: $2.8 mil
Punto: $2.4 mil
Rincon: $2.4 mil
Total suck costs: $23.12 mil
Casilla
Mauer
Morneau
Cuddyer
Kubel
Young
Buscher/Macri
Harris
Gomez
- As exciting as Gomes is to watch, he seldom gets the game off to a good start.
- Great plate discipline from your first two hitters- Casilla and Mauer. Let’s the other hitters see what the pitcher is throwing
- Gomez still bats before Casilla every time except the first inning.
- Your better hitters move up in the order; probably hit another 10-15 times each year.
- Decent left/right/left variety
- Of course Cuddyer isn’t a prototypical clean up hitter, but other than Morneau, we don’t have one. Cuddyer is getting into a groove and should end up in the 275-285 range, but his power numbers will sure be down
“If it’s any consolation JP, I completely agree that Morneau is a better hitter than Mauer. He’s the cornerstone of the offense. Notice how everyone’s numbers (Baby Jesus Joe Mauer included) when they bat in front of him? Mauer struggled to start the year with Cuddles behind him instead of Justin.”
Why can’t it be the other way? Look at Justin Morneau’s numbers when Mauer wasn’t in front of him. In the games that Mauer hasn’t hit in front of Morneau, Morneau has hit .255 with a .296 OBP with 1 HR and 9 RBI in 57 plate appearances. As for everyone else’s numbers - well, it’s just too small of a sample size to take any valuable information from it. And since Morneau has hit 4th all season, we have 4 games worth of data for what Mauer does when he isn’t hitting in front of Morneau. In those 4 games, Mauer hit .333/.357/.500 with 3 RBI and a run scored, for whatever that is worth.
I would assume that Mauer and Morneau both benefit from hitting next to each other. If you were to place someone between them, they would probably benefit as well. But it’s pretty tough to make the claim that Morneau makes those in front of him hit better, and it is incorrect to state that Mauer struggled at the start of the season without Morneau behind him. If anything, it was Morneau who struggled without Mauer in front of him.
thanks cm. too lazy to look it up.
so if we dont’ have to pay for lamb next year the savings is TWENTY MILLION!! wow.
if we can find a few difference makers then spend it there. otherwise our priorities should be locking up
Baker. He’s got be at the top of the list. Kubel. If he finishes .275 25 HR 80 Runs 90 RBI. (thats my projected totals for him).
No one else is close enough to FA to require being locked up or performing well enough to be locked up.
USE THE MONEY WISELY!!!!
not going there Pete. My point was any discussion about who the best Twins hitter was had to include Mauer and Morneau. arguements can be made for both. and anyone who chooses one is not wrong in my opinion. they both make each other better. we are lucky to have both.
JP,
agreed. They are totally different hitters and they are both young and they both have a lot of things to offer to the team. In a philosophical discussion about who is “better” (i.e. more “valuable” as a major leaguer), based on the position they play, their age (Mauer is 2 years younger) and performance, I’d say Mauer. But it is a moot point because they are both producing and I am glad they are there for the long run
Check out some more Twins talk and extended interviews from Buscher, Bass and Bonser during their day off at Kent Hrbek’s Bass Fishing Classic. It’s all on “Sports on Demand” on myfox9.com:
http://media.myfoxtwincities.com/livestream/webcast/archive.htm
It’s fun to watch a topic about Rincon and the pitching staff get grabbed by the scruff of the neck and forced into yet another “RAWR MAUER BATS 3RD!!!!” argument.
Seems to be a popular trend around here.
“If anything, it was Morneau who struggled without Mauer in front of him.”
Which is backed up by Morneau’s own statements numerous times that he likes having Mauer in front of him.
Sorry T. Didn’t mean to have the entire blog devolve like that. Thought you’d be proud of me defending Mauer and Gardy like that!
casilla 2b
mauer c
kubel dh
morneau 1b
young lf
buscher 3b
cuddyer rf
harris ss
gomez cf
this is what i would like to see, but i am sure what i will see is punto at ss, but gomez is not ready to lead off yet..too unstable and needs alot of work
mj1
no problem with your lineup but i personally don’t like three lefthand pitchers in a row.
lol i mean three lefthand hitters in a row!!
“Didn’t mean to have the entire blog devolve like that.”
Well it’s like…how many more times can we have the same discussion. And from the last ten times or so it’s pretty clear we all agree and it boils down to the same problem.
Not Mauer batting 3rd, but rather WHO ELSE bats 3rd.
they need to get span up here to step in for gomez now and then and the other two also…i believe they could go with a 4 man outfield rotation of some sort….span can lead off too, probably better than gomez
Maybe the Twins should do something to relieve this continually inane discussion. Release Mauer. Al least Jason will be happy.
Regards,
Slowey has trouble putting them away.
