A few nuggets, now that Fenway has stopped shaking
Posted on July 8th, 2008 – 11:44 PMBy Joe Christensen
BOSTON — Inside a quiet Twins clubhouse, Matt Guerrier sat by a computer, reviewing each pitch of Tuesday’s eighth-inning meltdown on video. He replayed the two-run homer by Manny Ramirez over and over and over again.
“It’s tough sometimes when you go out there and make a pitch, and you think it’s good, and then you look back, and it’s really not that good,” Guerrier said. “You just kind of watch and learn.”
Yes, watch and learn. The Twins, as a group, should heed that advice after two heartbreaking losses. They can learn from this, but the real test is not letting things spiral with five tough games remaining before the All-Star break.
A few thoughts that go beyond what I could squeeze into the game story:
(*) How about that 12-pitch at-bat by Nick Punto off Jonathan Papelbon to start the ninth inning? Star Tribune copy wiz Ken Chia noted that Papelbon was pumping nothing but fastballs the whole inning. The Twins made it interesting.
(*) I liked the decision to pinch hit Jason Kubel for Carlos Gomez, who is in an 0-for-10 slide and struck out in his previous two at-bats. But Kubel looked at a pretty good strike two pitch and then swung right through Papelbon’s 97-mph heater with a full count.
(*) It was big for Nick Blackburn to pitch well at Fenway Park after getting rocked for four runs in a one-inning relief appearance here Sept. 29. He looked like Johan Santana when he pounced on that bouncer in front of the mound by Brandon Moss in the fifth inning.
(*) Denard Span - wow. That’s all I can say after the three spectacular catches he’s made in right field. If he keeps this up they’re going to rename the Pesky Pole.
(*) Guerrier threw one inning in all three games against Cleveland last weekend. Three perfect innings. The Twins didn’t want to use him in Monday’s 1-0 loss, and tonight, he just wasn’t sharp. But it started with Dustin Pedroia reaching out his bat to hit an 83-mph slider that was a foot outside and headed for the dirt.
“I don’t think you can make a better pitch,” Gardy said.
(*) Brendan Harris was the story early. He looks very comfortable at third base and delivered the big two-run triple off Jon Lester in the fourth inning before doubling in the seventh. That and Punto’s 2-for-4 were two more encouraging signs. Alexi Casilla had his 14-game hitting streak snapped but drew two walks.
(*) So it’s up to Livan Hernandez to salvage the series, with Josh Beckett chucking for the Sox in Wednesday’s Fenway matinee. The last time Beckett faced the Twins — Sept. 27 — he lost. Boof Bonser pitched five innings for the win.
74 Responses to "A few nuggets, now that Fenway has stopped shaking"
Well I hope the Twins can still win the season series tomorrow, but I am not holding my breath. For the first time this year I decided to leave a Twins game when the starting pitcher left the game. In the back of my mind I was uneasy about the bullpen coming into the game, but I wanted to see Hancock and that is the main reason I didn’t watch the rest of the game. Turns out I made the absolute right decision! Right before the movie started, I checked the game score on my phone and the bottom of the eighth had just started. Game over in my mind. When I got back, went to mlb.com to see how the game went and not seeing the red sox in the headlines, I was confident the Twins had won the game. Then I looked at the scores. Should have just gone to bed early.
all of this is so right on. everyone wants to complain, but it’s more angry emotion rather than common sense. the red sox got some luck, and got some good hits on a way to a nice comeback in the 8th. it happens to every bullpen.
I seem to recall the bullpen getting into trouble a few times against the Sox back at the Dome.
On the plus side, even if the pen’s apparently in shakey mode right now, at least it’s not like the last time we had this problem…where a shakey bullpen was being asked to go 5-6 innings a game on top of a shakey start.
Joe…go to bed!
Nothing about maybe bringing in Nathan in the 8th? Never came up?
Glad to see you asking the tough questions as always Joe.
“Nothing about maybe bringing in Nathan in the 8th? Never came up?
Glad to see you asking the tough questions as always Joe.”
That question has been asked and answered over and over. It doesn’t need repeating.
Nathan will continue to pitch one inning only in save opportunities unless he is not getting enough work.
Most MLB closers are handled the same way.
The idea is to win as many games as possible over the whole season, not burn him out now just because the Twins are playing the Red Sox.
You don’t have to agree with that answer, BUT THAT IS THE ANSWER!!!!
I’m looking forward to seeing Nathan getting a “he needed to get some work in” inning tomorrow when they’re down by 6.
For all those people that last night said, “It’s only one game,” and tonight are saying, “It’s only a couple of games,” did you bother at all looking at the standings to see which two teams are currently leading the race for the ONE wildcard spot? Why it’s the Red Sox and the Twins, and ironically enough, had the Twins won these last two games they would be ahead of the Red Sox in that race. So, at year’s end if the Bo-Sox get the wildcard spot by one game over the Twins are the apologists going to still be saying then, “It was only a couple of games”?
Joe suggested Span might stay, and play 3-4 games per week when Cuddyer returns. Span needs to play every day, not sit on the bench. Let one of the less talented OF play 3-4 days a week. They have several to choose from.
Stop Stop, is 0 for 10, with 2 more strikeouts, plus a caught stealing. Gomez has a lot of baseball skills, but at this point, hitting isn’t one of them. What a pathetic bat.
Unbelievable, that a player can swing the bat like Craig Monroe, and stay in the Major Leagues. I would rather watch Mike Lamb bat, any day
Get a hit, give a hit, get a hit, give a hit……. Go Delmon!
Kubel was hitting. Keeping his pattern consistent, expect a 5 game slump coming up.
Punto and Harris need to play everyday, at least until Tolbert returns.
Alejandro Machado, may be close to ready. The Twins need a middle infielder. Buscher needs a ticket to Rochester.
That is all the people need to know.
Gomez hit for the Cycle, impressive in my book for someone who is 22
A couple things stuck out for me that made me go hmmm.
WHY WHY WHY sacrifice SPAN in the 9th to move Punto who is already in scoring position to 3rd???? Basically stating you don’t think you’re going to get a hit? (Yes I get the do the little things or play the game the right way, but is it really right in that situation?) Playing for the tie I guess
Which leads me to this
Reyes shouldn’t have started the 8th he’s pretty much good for 1-2 batters.
Is Breslow hurt?
Guerrier was left in way to long… After the Manny HR that tied the game there should have been a switch. Guerrier didn’t have it again..Is Breslow hurt? Twins miss NESHEK badly at this point. I’ve noticed that the Bullpen hasn’t fared well against better hitting lineups. Giving up 3 run leads in one inning IS NOT GOOD. And it seems to be during Blackburn’s starts.
At least they took him out when he was gassed this time instead of too early.
I really thought the Twins were going to win that game before it started, but once I saw how the 8th started I had that feeling it was slipping away. Oh well that was brutal to watch. Livan better be able to pitch through the 8th so they can get Nathan out there
Worse thing is the Royals coughed up their lead and lost to the White Sox, so the Twins fall back to 2.5 out.
It’s easy to know what the Twins should do. Just read what Craig says…………..and then do the opposite.
I’m with you Call Me… where was Brewlow in the 8th? The guy’s been shining for us against lefties yet we throw in Mr. Round-face who has not been terribly consistent this season.
The Twins should keep Span in right field and trade Cuddyer, Punto, and Bonser for some bullpen help.
CRAIG:
I’m with you. The twins are playing the World Champs pretty tough. It’s only the first week in July.
“That is all the people need to know.”
The only time the Strib guys bother to interview Guerrier is when he has a bad outing. He’s a standup guy, and despite last night, a reliable guy out of the bullpen.
It would’ve been interesting to see how some of these bullpen meltdowns would’ve gone if Neshek was healthy and slinging ‘em. I read on various blogs and mlbtraderumors.com about the needs of the Twins. They’re getting on and hitting well with RISP, but the last few losses have fallen on the bullpen. When Bass and Bonser are among your options, help is needed.
Package up Bass and Bonser for another reliever or bring up someone from AA. Cutting Lamb would clear the space for another reliever and space for Span.
at least nathan is well rested.
Hard to believe the Twins have been playing some of the winningest baseball in recent memory, and not gaining hardly anything in the standings. It would help if Kansas City would quit choking.
All last night proves is that we really miss Pat. He would have blown threw that inning and we could have handed the game over to Nathan. I don’t like the pinch hit for Gomaz, he would have put the ball in play and Nicki could have scored. I would have rather brought Redmon in instead of Kubal. What I don’t understand is why they left Matty in. After the homerun he should have been gone!
I can’t believe how much we are paying Mike Lamb!!!
Twin’s average with RISP was crazily high and would most definitely come down over the course of the rest of the season - unfortunately it happened in the 1st 2 games of this series..
Twins are competitive team this year when most thought they wouldn’t be.. but they are still building to be a true contender for WS
Span should not have been butting, a fast ball hitter, give him three shots to bring in Punto, he is fast enough to score from second, how many times does it work to bunt the person over from second with no one out and hope he will score??? I can not remember it ever happening??
Having Span bunt was not the problem. I didn’t like pinch hitting for Gomez either but it was understandable. Then Kuble gets up there just haveing to hit it deep someplace, gets multiple fastballs down the middle and whiffs them. As frustratign as that was, it’s not nearly as frustrating as handing a 3 run lead over to a supposedly stellar bullpen and watching them blow it for Blackburn. I would have rather given Bass a chance at retribution in that inning that trot Guerrier out there. He has become very inconsistent and prone to giving up hits. I would not hve brought Nathan in for the 8th either. It’s not time for that yet.
Joe C-You say the Twins just suffered two ”heartbreaking losses”,but some are gleeful,they finally have something negative to vent about.
Nathan not coming in during the 8th is definitely a decision that should be questioned. Sane says its important ‘not to burn out (Nathan) now’. Well if innings are that important, isn’t Guerrier way overworked with 48 innings pitched compared to Nathan’s 36? Nathan should work a couple innings every now and then when the situation calls for it… at least then he may be used to pitching multiple innings when Gardy calls on him to pitch three consecutive in the playoffs. Also, Rivera has pitched in the eighth 5 times already this year.
Not trying to play monday morning QB,but i wonder why Breslow is never the first lefty option out of the pen?He has been pretty effective so far.
Nathan can only pitch one inning at a time, even when he hasn’t pitched for days, but Mariano Rivera, who’s much older and has much more wear on his arm, can go 2 innings in a tie game on Sunday night? Please. If you are going to pitch to Manny last night - and after Monday I say you walk him - you do it with your best pitcher. It is rediculous that the Twins pen has blown 2 close games late without its best pitcher ever seeing the mound. Did you think there might be a more important situation to come up in the ninth than Manny as the tying run at the plate? I doubt it.
I am glad that I read in Joe C’s article that the Twins are debating on whether they should try and trade for Beltre. I am really hoping the Twins pick him up. Beltre could hit 5th or 4th after Morneau, so Justin could get more pitches down the plate. A Beltre signing would drastically help Morneau, and help this entire power laden lineup.
I don’t think it’s EXACTLY heartbreaking to get beat by the World Champs, especially AT Fenway. It would be nice to salvage one this afternoon though. And I would like to get to Jonathon Papplesmear and see if HE chokes. That would be a nice way to leave Boston.
Crain should be the set up man!!!
If he’s not available how about reyes
Isn’t the deal with Beltre that he doesn’t come through with runners on? Not a good thing for the middle of the order…
Relax, everyone. It’s July.
Tyler-I agree about Beltre if it doesn’t cost to much.Seattle is in such disaray,that we probably could get him for a song.If we can’t trade Lamb at the deadline,then we have to just take the finanial hit and move on.
Why is it so hard to understand you need over powering type stuff to get great hitters out in presure situations!!!
There’s only a couple of guys on the whole team that have that kind of stuff and their both in our bullpen which is why our starters will fail in the playoffs.
Don’t get me wrong I’m very pleased with the teams over all performance…..however you NEED power starting pitching to be a real play off threat!
Geno
Beltre I believe is 12 mil a year, if the Twins traded for him, we would have him for the rest of this year and next year. A trade I would like to be done to get him is Boof,Perkins,Lamb,Cuddyer. If we would be able to dump Lamb and Cuddyer’s contracts that would make his signing easier. Besides I think that Beltre is worth his money. He has good defense and hits for average with power. SIGN HIM
shameless-Like Liriano.2006 vintage!
“Rivera has pitched in the eighth 5 times already this year.”
Not all pitchers’ arms have the same “bounce-back” capability. Maybe Nathan’s arm can’t recover as well as Rivera’s. Rivera is not your average closer. I would think Rick Anderson would have a better read on that capability than “outsiders” like us.
“Guerrier way overworked with 48 innings pitched compared to Nathan’s 36?”
Guerrier was the “long man” a little while ago and his job has often been to throw multiple innings. The number of innings isn’t the key factor as most SP’s are already over 100 innings, and they aren’t “overworked”
A closer’s innings and pitches are more stressful, because each pitch could be a game-loser.
No team wants wants Lamb. He stays with the Twins.
Cuddy looks like an extremely overpaid utility player, when he hits in the lineup, outside the Mauer-Morneau, sandwich. He stopped getting all those fastballs, without Morneau hitting behind him. I doubt if any team would want Cuddy’s contract, either.
Kubel and Young have inexpensive, desirable contracts, and are relatively young. They have some degree of talent. That’s the type of player teams might be interested in.
If Pohlad would be willing to pop for Beltre’s contract, the Twins might package Kubel and Young together, as trade bait.
Each pitch could be a game loser just like the eighth inning last night. If number of innings isn’t a key factor why not pitch Nathan more? He’s thrown less overall pitches, and made less overall appearances than Guerrier as well as innings. If Guerrier is more of a long reliever, he should have way less appearances than Nathan.
There’s only one word that can accurately describe last night: INEXCUSABLE. Any other comment, stat or opinion pales.
yokay,
“why not pitch Nathan more?”
Maybe Nathan’s arm can’t recover as well as (pick someone).
Anderson knows his capabilities better than outsiders.
The Mariners look like they could use a DH, and a corner OF.
Throw in Harris, if the Mariners have no replacement 3B. That addition might sweeten the deal. Harris, also has a desirable contract.
sid,
why post on this blog if you can’t comment on or question the team. You don’t think managers can make mistakes?
“If Guerrier is more of a long reliever, he should have way less appearances than Nathan.”
Guerrier used to be a long reliever, now he is a setup man. Often a setup man has more appearances than the closer.
When Cuddy comes back healthy,we should rotate the outfield with Span playing at least 4 times a week at all 3 outfield positions.He has developed a calm,relaxed demeanor,patterned after Cassila.Go-Go and Delmon are trying to hard,maybe trying to justify the trades.That comes with being so young.A day off every now and then will help them relax!
Beltre, isn’t very good, but he could help the Twins.
Young, Kubel and Harris in exchange for Beltre. Seems fair, if the Mariners would want those guys.
If it’s one thing that ticks me off more is how Nathan is used by Gardy…
We have lost two games now by 1 run and our $45 MILLION dollar closer sits on the bench (never even warmed up!) How ridiculous is that? You say you dont want to burn him out, are you serious? You are telling me he can’t come in and get the last 5 outs of a ballgame?? Then why the hell should we have signed him for 3 years? Sorry, but last time I check, the MLB rule book didn’t say that your “closer can and will only pitch the 9th inning when your team leads by 1, 2, or 3 innings and there are only 3 outs remaining to end the game.” But I guess the copy that Gardy has does!
yokay,
“why post on this blog if you can’t comment on or question the team.”
You have every right to “comment on or question the team”. So does everyone else.
And everyone else has every right to question the validity of your (and my) questions.
Nobody is asking you to stop posting, commenting or questioning.
We all do it.
..and that should read 1, 2, or 3 RUNS. not innings
No GENO, Span would play everyday. One of the less talented outfielders would play 4 times a week. They have several to choose from, for that role.
The front office doesn’t want Span sitting on the bench, He has learned to hit left handers, and is the Twins best outfielder.
If Guerrier has more appearances, as well as more innings pitched, then you can’t argue that he’s not more ‘overworked’ than Nathan.
Sid must be auditioning for the “Blog Monitor” job
“I would think Rick Anderson would have a better read on that capability than “outsiders” like us.
Maybe Nathan’s arm can’t recover as well as (pick someone).
Anderson knows his capabilities better than outsiders.”
You’ve implied several times that we shouldn’t question Anderson
“you can’t argue that he’s not more ‘overworked’ than Nathan.”
I never have.
I just said he may be capable of more appearances than Nathan is.
And all the SP’s have more innings than both of them.
And Nathan may be considered more valuable (harder to replace) than is Guerrier so he is more protected than Guerrier.
I think the mlb/player agreement precludes trading a player on the DL. Cuddy wouldn’t be traded, that being the case. He won’t be back anytime soon.
“You’ve implied several times that we shouldn’t question Anderson”
Question him all you like.
Just consider that he may have reasons for his decisions.
Of course managers have reasons for their decisions. That is what we are questioning. There’s no need to point that out if not implying that we should just assume that every decision made by the manager is the correct one.
Aww crap, Livian Hernandez is the last pitcher I would want out there today trying to salvage the last game in a series I feel we should have won already.
“There’s no need to point that out if not implying that we should just assume that every decision made by the manager is the correct one.”
Every manager’s decision is NOT CORRECT.
If I ever said (or implied) that “Every manager’s decision IS correct”, I hereby retract it.
But I have NEVER said (or implied) that.
Craig-You are rather harsh toward my point of view today!I did not know that you are the final authority on every thing Twins.You are indeed a legend in your own mind.
“Sid must be auditioning for the “Blog Monitor” job”
NO SOUP…..er…OPINIONS TODAY!!!!!
Guerrier has at times been a starter, so he is more capable of throwing more innings than Nathan. Enough said.
I also remember the Twins sending out Nathan for a second inning against the Yankees in a playoff game and blowing that one. Nathan is a great closer, and in today’s game, closers are used by many teams as a one-inning option. Also, opponents batting average goes up 50 points against nathan once he throws over thirty pitches.
I’m fine with Gardy using him strictly in save situations. Nathan’s one of the best in that role.
The Twins are competing for the Lady Byng trophy.
Lets all admit Gradie does not know how to use his bullpen or pencil in a good lineup.; First Bosten game, you do not bring in a rookie pitcher with the score tied in the 8th. Server them Crain should only be used in mop up situations. Second game why not bring in Nathan in the 8th with the game on the line. Poor management both offensively and pitching changes have just the Twins many losses.
Waited til now to post because I was/am soooo POed about this loss. Can’t remember the last time I took a shot at Gardenhire, but this one’s on him. NEWSFLASH: It is not against the rules to use one’s closer for more than 1 inning. See, eg. Mariano Rivera. NEWSFLASH: Our bullpen is not much better than mediocre with Neshek out, except of course for Nathan. Bass, Gruyere and Crain haven’t shown much, particularly in the clutch against a true contender. Nice to know Joe will be rested for the Detroit series–hate to think he might have got some action in Boston. NEWSFLASH: Anyone who doesn’t feed Carlos Gomez pitches 4-6 inches outside is a fool–he swings at those every time. Kid needs to make adjustments and think about what he’s doing, and a trip to the #9 hole may be just what the doctor ordered, where .255 and a low OBP aren’t so damaging.
Anyone who thinks trading anything other than a couple mid-level minor leaguers or someone like Bass or Lamb for Beltre needs their head checked. Beltre had one good year in his entire career.
Boston was saying..”Awesome! We get the Twins! That should give us a sweep and make us closer th the Rays! MLB likes it this way better anyway! Minny couldn’t sniff our jock straps anyway! I needed some “fat” pitches to hit anyway; I’ve been really struggling lately!”
Manny
Jason Bay is the guy I would go after! Atkins would be alright too. It would be quite the splash if the Twins succumbed to going after Bonds=Hell would have to freeze over for that to happen! we’re too much of a “clean cut” organization!
“Guerrier has at times been a starter, so he is more capable of throwing more innings than Nathan. Enough said.”
Not enough said, not even close. Nathan used to be a starter too, and you’re nuts if you begin to suggest that Guerrier is better equipped for the situation. I’ve seen this crap play out before with Nathan, when Gardie doesn’t want to use him in big games late in the season because “we haven’t used him like that all year”. Well, there was your chance, big game, grab a win before you go up against Beckett, keep momentum up before the all-star game and prevent a slide. Instead, we get swept with an ass-kicking on the way out of town, and Nathan stays on the bench the whole series. Great job.
