Pitching depth could be an Achilles’ heel for White Sox
Posted on July 21st, 2008 – 11:23 AMBy Joe Christensen
The White Sox have pitched very well this season, but they are sweating right now over a lack of depth.
They placed Jose Contreras on the DL with elbow tendinitis Sunday. With no obvious choices at Class AAA to replace him, reliever Nick Masset will join the rotation. Masset is 1-0 with a 4.66 ERA in two career starts.
(Note: The White Sox re-signed Esteban Loaiza last month, but he showed up out of shape and is 0-2 with a 6.55 ERA at Class AAA Charlotte.)
Kansas City took two of three from the White Sox this weekend, and once again, Ozzie Guillen wore his emotions on his sleeve.
”We played terrible,” he said. ”I just watched an ugly game. I think a lot of people look at Detroit and Minnesota; we should look at ourselves. … We have to pitch better if we’re going to be in a pennant race.”
Jon Danks, who has given Chicago a huge boost this season, gave up six runs in four innings in Sunday’s 8-7 loss.
“Danks was kind of awful,” Guillen said. ”People ask about how the bullpen is going down, but the starting pitching has been awful.”
(Note: Jermaine Dye also left Sunday’s game after being hit with a pitch on the right kneecap. He’s expected to miss tonight’s game, with the Rangers in town. Also, keep in mind that the White Sox opened the year overbudget and aren’t in great position to trade for another starter.)
The lesson in all of this: In most cases, it takes more than five starting pitchers to win over a 162-game season. The Twins might look silly for keeping Francisco Liriano at Class AAA. Some have suggested unloading Livan Hernandez to clear a spot.
Sit tight, folks. The Twins open a three-game set at Yankee Stadium tonight sitting a half-game behind the White Sox. Having six effective starting pitchers is a nice problem to have. Just ask Ozzie Guillen.
67 Responses to "Pitching depth could be an Achilles’ heel for White Sox"
good article on .com about baker
http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/baseball/flb/outOfTheBox?page=ootb080721
Thank you, Joe. I think the Sox starting pitching is overrated anyway, even when they’re healthy. Still, having some of them on the DL definitely doesn’t hurt.
Hold on… I think I just made a pun!
Anyway, we can still have starting pitching depth by dropping Bass and moving Livan into long relief with occasional spot starts. We call up Liriano and Hernandez can give guys occasional days off for the rest of the season. That way, he still gets his 200 IP bonus, our young guys’ arms don’t get too worked, and we have our best players actually playing for the big club.
If they’re looking for a creative way to get Liriano up and not lose any of the starting staff, they should consider taking that fifth starting spot and splitting it between Perkins and Livan. Give each of them four innings and if the ninth belongs to Nathan give it to him, if not let the second pitcher take it. That would keep both of the stretched out enough to maintain their starting roles. It would limit the pay of Livan, whose million dollar innings bonuses could disapear, and it would help shelter Perkins arm which has never come near to two hundred innings in a year. And then you have room for Liriano.
There’s not gonna be a creative way to bring up Liriano. He’s going to come up at some point as an addition to the five-man rotation, either in place of an injury or trade.
Shawn, that IS a great article. Kind of sums up my whole thinking on how Livan’s 10 wins are overrated. Quality of pitching speaks more than the straight numbers do in some cases.
I have to give Livan credit though, for handling the Rangers as he did on Saturday. He came under some heat, and responded in a big way. I still do feel like, however, if Livan were on a team like the Dodgers, who are flirting with first place in the NL West, we’d be questioning why they kept him around if they had someone else in AAA pitching like Liriano is.
I think the hometown bias is clouding peoples’ vision a little bit, but let’s wait and see where we’re at in 10 days when we’ve played the Yankees and White Sox, and the deadline’s passed by. Things could look a lot different then.
I am with ya on Livan, but since the team is going to keep him, i just hope for the best, such as saturday.
You can move a starter to the bullpen and it doesn’t necessarily have to be a negative thing. The Twins truly need another quality arm in the pen. You’d have so sell the move as one to help the team in a tough situation, not as a demotion. Sit down Perkins and tell him the immediate situation requires him to go shore up the bullpen and that he has a lock on a starting position in the future.
Baker’s 1-0 losses prove time and time again that wins are a horrible measure of a pitcher’s success.
This entry actually comes at a good time, as I was just wondering what (if anything) the Sox were looking to do before the deadline to improve their chances.
You can move a starter to the bullpen and it doesn’t necessarily have to be a negative thing.
The problem isn’t who to put in the bullpen, the problem is that there just isn’t a roster spot for Liriano.
They literally can’t call him up unless they send down/trade/release somebody else.
T,
Really?
If Scott Baker got Livan-esque run support he’d have a Kyle Lohse-esque record by now…. never thought I’d be wanting Kyle Lohse back.
I’m assuming if they sent a starter to the bullpen, it would be because the Brian Bass era has officially ended. It seems to make sense, since in my opinion it would may our bullpen and rotation better.
I would rather see livan go to the pen than perkins, but if they are worried about perkins getting too many innings this year, I could see the logic of having it be him.
that should be a make and not a may. My brain hasn’t started working yet this week.
Really?
Yes.
I apolgoize if I told you something you already know. I didn’t intend to be rude.
It’s just that after watching how ESPN’s covered this, I’ve been surprised by the amount of people who don’t realize this.
If our starters keep pitching well, we will be in fine shape.
Sorry folks, but I feel to need to inject a little rain on the parade today. Very sorry, but here goes: Joe’s earlier post on Detroit still holds. The White Sox dont look so good once a couple of guys get hurt, especially SP’ers. But, the Twins are -3 on the road. NYY are +8 at-home. The Tigers have played 5 fewer home games than the Twins, and they are +8 at home. With the Twin’s schedule having more away games, a lot more away games, than Detroit or CWS, especially in August, it’s going to be hard for them to stay in it. If CWS falter, Detroit seems like a better bet to take advantage…..unless, the Twins figure out how to at least be .500 on the road….even that may not be enough, but to have a chance, they have to do better on the road.
Anybody have any theories as to why most teams have poor-to-godawful road records (except for the Angels, who seem to love road games)…..travel, stadiums, pitching mounds, strike zones, big fans blowing balls out for the home team, keeping them in for the visitors? There must be some good reasons for this anomaly. Theories anyone?
Shawn,
Good link to the Baker article. I noticed that, in the article, it mentions that the Twins remaining schedule overall adds up to clubs that average less than .500. I know we have that long stretch of road games coming up, but it’s encouraging that we have a favorable schedule down the stretch.
Plus, I think are remaining games against Detroit and Chicago are all at home.
Well, here we go again.
Joe C. predicted last week that Detroit was going to be the team to beat in the division and follows that up with a companion piece…pitching is going ruin the White Sox.
For the record, Chicago did drop 2 of 3 to Kansas City at home, something that no first place team can let happen. However, they still managed to get out of the weekend .5 game ahead of the Twins and 6.5 games ahead of Detroit.
So Joe C. is on record: he likes Detroit and doesn’t like Chicago.
I disagree.
The way I see it, this race is between the Twins and the White Sox. The White Sox look so much better than Detroit and have throughout the season, it’s hard to put it into words. If losing 2 of 3 to Kansas City is all the evidence you need that Chicago is falling apart, I invite Joe C. and others to review how the Tigers have fared against the Royals this year.
Losing Contreras to the DL won’t be good for the Whities, but they have better pitching up and down than Detroit in any event, and their veteran squad–unlike Detroit’s–has battled back from adversity throughout this season. The White Sox have a better bullpen; The White Sox have better starters; The White Sox have a better lineup…and dare I say it, the White Sox want it more.
It will be fun to see how Joe C.’s intuition in this regard pans out…he is due to get one right sooner or later.
T,
“The problem isn’t who to put in the bullpen, the problem is that there just isn’t a roster spot for Liriano.”
Outright Sergio Santos or Julio DePaula to AAA.
Or when Bass is waived and picked up, use his spot.
If he isn’t claimed, outright him to AAA.
my idea for a few weeks; waive bass or trade boof, bring up liriano. let livan pitch long relief and spot start at home (home: 8-1 3.91 era, away 2-5 7.48 era) to give these young guys each a start off. a lot of stress on young arms could make them all better and if somebody struggles livan fills in.
Ray,
Unless the Tigers make another big move, they simply don’t have the pitching to get it done. Bonderman is done for the season, Dontrelle is in A-Ball trying to remember how to throw, Rogers and Robertson are terrible, Galarraga’s BABIP amongst other things says he’ll come back to Earth, and they’re now trying to rely on Zach Miner to be in their rotation as well.
Additionally, if they DO get a starter, they’re likely to include Fernando Rodney in the package, which means that their bullpen takes a massive hit as well then. I just don’t see them being able to stay in it.
They lost 11-10 the other day to Baltimore. You can’t afford to lose games like that and stay in a division. Their lineup is old, and injury prone as well.
Never would’ve believed I’d be saying this in July if you told me 4 months ago, but Detroit looks like they’re pretenders to me. This race is between Minnesota and Chicago.
Gardy will not treat a Veteran pitcher like Livan like this and just demote him to the bullpen.. he is the team’s “ACE” according to Gardy and CO.
he may not be as far as talent and results (besides wins where he is the best supported starter on the staff)he has the leadership I guess…
ray - its easy to explain home/road splits.
Teams are out of their comfort zone, think how you you’ve reacted any time in your life you’ve been in a place you haven’t spent much time in and don’t have your own comfy bed to sleep in. It’s just a result of being out of your element.
I agree its easy to get Liriano up here, just put Bass on waivers, I’m sure he’d make it through anyway. See how Boof does in a later inning role and move Livan or Perkins into long relief/spot starter role. Probably Perkins, as he’s done it before and they don’t want to move Livan obviously.
Also, at home, teams have their own technology to review for games, and are used to the ins and outs of their routine at home.
Baseball players are creatures of habit. Playing on the road makes routine more difficult to stay in because of a constantly changing environment.
Additionally, the Twins (like any other team) benefit from knowledge of how to play in their own park. And say what you want, but the fans can elevate you above a lot of situations if they’re all cheering behind you in a key spot.
They literally can’t call him up unless they send down/trade/release somebody else.
This is not a difficult decision. Bass is a mop-up stiff who would likely make it through waivers. And if he didn’t, you’re not exactly out anything.
Of all the reasons you could give for not bringing up Liriano, this one is probably the weakest.
4 teams in MLB are at or plus-500 on the road: Angels, Yankees, Phillies, Cardinals. That’s it. Angels are insane…31-18. Go figure. Whatever the reasons, the Twins have to do better on the road, given the fact that they have more games remaining on the road than at home. Looking at the standings a little more closely, Detroit is in tough shape actually. They feasted on interleague play, but they are -8 against AL teams. Twins and CWS are better, way better, than Detroit against higher quality AL teams. That doesnt bode well for Detroit. So I must reconsider some of my previous post, which is odd, given all the talent on that team, and arguably the best SP in the division in Verlander (yeah, he started slow, but he’s on now, and I’m betting he’ll remain so the rest of the season).
So, Steve in Fridley, you get kudos for your prescient dissection of the pretender Tigers. They melt like butter in the hot August sun when they play decent teams. Too bad for them. But the Twins still need to figure out their road problems if they want to stay with the Big Boys.
They could send Gomez down to AAA and carry 13 pitchers again since we have all the offense we need anyways. j/k
There are alot of people saying that the Twins’ can’t stay in it because the have a disproportionate amount of road games remaining. I will put a little perspective on it.
The Twins are 3 games under .500 on the road. That is the 4th best road record in the AL (LAA +13, NYY 0, TEX, -1).
Of our 36 remaining road games, 15 are against teams with a winning record (NYY, LAA, OAK, TB). Even if they only win 5 of these games, they should win at least 13 of the other 21 (CLE, SEA, KC, TOR, BAL) go .500 the rest of the way on the road.
If they maintain their home and away winning percentages, they will win 90 games this year.
odd story on mike lamb at espn.com:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=pearlman/080721&sportCat=mlb
The White Sox pitching might be in a little slump, but it’s still better than Detroit’s and that won’t change much with a Contreras DL stint.
SOX team ERA: 3.96
Tigers’ team EAR: 4.46
The Tigers are 6.5 games behind with 64 games to play. Considering their age and second half performances from this point in the season the last couple of years (64-75), predicting that the Tigers will beat the White Sox is bold indeed. I wouldn’t put my money on it unless I liked to play long odds.
I don’t think Bass should be the guy to go. Has everybody forgot about Bonser?
There has to be some club that is in desperate need of a starter who would take him and ship us a “Player to be named later”.
He doesn’t fit into the future of this team. Let’s move on and give him a chance to get it going some place else.
My opinion on Boof/Bass is this:
If I had to choose who would go, I’d say Bass. Boof has shown glimpses of good pitching. He could be a horse in the pen. Possibly a 6th, 7th, or 8th inning guy. Pairing him with Guerrier could be a great combo of 7th inning guys. He could very well do what Ryan Franklin has done. Franklin, remember, was a not very impressive starter in Seattle. He got to StL and has put up good numbers in a relief role. I want to say Boof could do the same. Bass on the other hand, doesn’t have the stuff to stay consistent.
I agree with Adam 100%. Bonser can be traded.Heck…we got something for Ramon Ortiz.
Good post, SweetOne. The home/road split the rest of the way is a little daunting but level of competition is favorable.
The Sox have 7 remaining games against Boston, 4 against NY, 3 against Tampa Bay, and 3 against the Angels. They have a much harder remaining schedule.
Bass, in my opinion, has pitched better than Boof. I wouldn’t trust the late innings to Boof. That would be pretty silly.. Rincon jr.
Patrick - The WhiteSox also have 7 games remaining against the twins, all at the dome.
Duane, I would respectfully disagree. I look at a guy like Guerrier. He was a starter that couldn’t quite make it click, but always had pretty good stuff. Once the coaches got his mindset on just getting out 3 hitters, he started pitching well. He was a transition project, and one that worked based on talent.
Bass was always going to be a reliever this year, but he just doesn’t have the stuff to be anything but a mop up guy. He has a get it over fastball, which gets over the fence quite often. I give him that he is a rookie, but he doesn’t seep confidence out on the mound.
Boof put together a fairly decent rookie campaign. He has a great curveball (if he can throw it for strikes). I think that if we can get him thinking about pitching one inning and get him some confidence, he could be just like Crain. (i.e. A one pitch reliever who can look nasty at times and spaced out at times). He has the talent, he just has to put it together. And I don’t want to make excuses, but it could be possible that with all the weight he lost, he lost some mechanics. His balance point will be different due to the weight loss. This could cause him to open up or get out in front of himself, thus causing pitches to sail and get up in the zone. With some work and steady conditioning, he could get back to striking out batters.
Boof had a very good performance the other night. This doesn’t necessarily mean that he is changing into a good high-leverage pitcher, but it does bode well.
Nothing wrong with a pitcher performing well when you need it. If Bonser can come in and do it again, a couple of times, it does warrant looking abit closer at him though.
Bass has been given that chance a few times already, and I can remember the comments that came as a direct result.
Time to cut bait on Bass, and look a different direction. That direction, at least in my opinion is directed toward Bonser.
Give Liriano his shot, move Perkins back into relief, and I think the Twins bullpen has gotten the huge shot in the arm that they needed.
The hitting is just fine. a 1-0 game is not the end of the world. The Twins are doing just fine hitting wise this year, and if they can’t get a long-term answer for third, they are much better served standing pat there. Buscher is doing well there offensively, and Harris has been doing pretty dang well there too.
We all know that Punto will be starting at SS very soon. Anyone notice how well the Twins have done with out him in the starting line-up?
“We all know that Punto will be starting at SS very soon”
And very soon after that, a return to the DL.
Too much “getting after it”.
Of all the reasons you could give for not bringing up Liriano, this one is probably the weakest.
And yet it’s the most true.
yes we had that awful 10 game winning streak when he was on the dl and then went 9-6 with him starting. as dick b said he turned the team around! he’s the straw, the heart and soul, the glue, the mvpunto!
also a very good utility guy.
T,
Most true or most bogus?
However, they still managed to get out of the weekend .5 game ahead of the Twins and 6.5 games ahead of Detroit.
The Twins played the Rangers, and took 2 of 3. The Sox played the Royals and only got 1 out of it.
They’re 1 1/2 game lead (that mind you was 6 1/2 at one point) going into the weekend dropped down to 1/2 after three games.
This is after the Twins were swept by Boston. The Sox are “hanging on” but they’re missing opportunities to widen the lead (who were they playing when the Twins were losing to Boston? And why couldn’t they manage to at least maintain the lead when playing KC?)
Remember how the Twins were facing the White Sox and the Tigers were facing the Royals in the final series of the year in 06? All the Tigers had to do was win ONE game against the Royals to clinch the division…
The Sox had the Twins on the ropes after that 4 game series. But then they went and lost a series against Colorado, got swept by the Tigers and Tribe (I believe) and by the end of the week their massive 6.5 game lead was down to like 2 or 3.
Maybe Ozzie needs to go on another tirade?
Most true or most bogus?
*shrug*
It’s the only one that isn’t based on statistical interpretation.
They drop Bass, move Livan to the pen, and then call up Liriano.
Of course then Pohlad’s a cheap@ss for not letting Livan get his innings bonus. (That would be funny to see an agent’s client get shafted out of pay so his other client can get more money)
“Of course then Pohlad’s a cheap@ss for not letting Livan get his innings bonus”
Livan’s inning bonus should be paid to his outfielders at $10 per mile. (chasing rockets and extra base hits)
Rick Anderson talks about why they won’t move Liriano to the bullpen and when he could get called up today at 3:00 on the webshow “Sports on Demand.”
The Twins should have added to his contract that if he gives up more hits then innings pitched he owes them money.
T,
Most true or most bogus?
*shrug*
My point is that the roster limit is just a “straw man” obstacle.
If the FO really wanted Liriano to replace Bass, they would go through that obstacle like cr-p through a goose.
Bass has pitched a career minor league ERA of 4.33 and averages more then a hit an inning.. he has pitched 7 years in the minors!! this kid is 26 but I think hie ceiling has been hit!!
It would seem that the filing on behalf of Liriano wasn’t so much to force him onto the roster right now, but to change his status as far as arbitration eligibility is concerned. If that is the case, all I can say is that the agent is definitely doing his job for his client. Nothing at all wrong with that in my mind. I find it doubtful that anything can come of it, since he did have two dud starts in the middle of that streak that everyone keeps point at.
Rather fine line that his agent it walking though. If his client(Liriano) is promoted to the majors at the expense of his other client(Hernandez) it would mean that he was putting the financial wellbeing of one client above the other. That is a lawsuit waiting to happen. If Hernandez was to lose out on bonuses due to losing innings at the expense of Liriano, it would pretty much be an open-shut case of malpractice on the part of the agent, and if the opposite were true, not pushing to get Liriano into the majors would be a serious dereliction of duties if the situation played out that he didn’t push him to the majors because of Livan losing his bonuses.
mickey mental, thanks for the link to the Lamb story. Sounds like he wants to be retired.
And how the Twins have been churning out a decent offensive output with essentially only a 24-man team is getting more than just pleasantly curious.
Bonser has value for this team.
But I can’t say that Lamb has any (though I like the guy).
This weakness could bite the Twins in the ass very soon.
romer — mike lamb might want to be retired. he may miss his wife and kids. and he might be a great guy. but after the 2009 season, he will have made roughly $13 million over seven years for PLAYING BASEBALL. and not playing it all that well.
sounds to me like mike lamb has won life’s lottery whether he finishes out his contract through next season or walks away tomorrow.
mickey,
Thanks for the article on Mike Lamb. He is straight forward and matter-of-fact, in the interview. He acknowledges the obvious, that he’s not a very good baseball player. It must be tough to be on the team when you really don’t want to be playing anymore. If someone throws 6.6 mil at you, it’s hard to say no, I’m sure. He will do what’s right and show up, do his best, and collect his check until the Twins make him happy and send him home to his wife and kids. I predict that will happen next year, about the middle of the season. He can then get paid for doing what he wants to be doing; that is, spending time with his family. I wish him well. He sounds like a nice man.
yep, craig, i wish him well, too. can’t begrudge a guy for being lucky. i just hope his luck drives in a few more runs before it’s all said and done. and i’m sure his grandkids will love the stories.
Wow…so that Mike Lamb article was kinda weird.
Does he not want to play anymore? If he didn’t…why did he take the contract with the Twins? Why not just retire and be done with it?
First they get Rondell White and his “I’m fresh off steroids” numbers, and now Mike Lamb and his “I dunno if I really want to play ball anymore” attitude.
Jeez, if I’m Smith I point at this article as I politely usher him towards the clubhouse exit.
No wonder we can’t trade this guy…
Trade that Clumby Cuddyer and get him off the roster. He is simply a big mouth who is over rated as a player. Span is absolutely outstanding in right field. I think Gomez should stay in the lineup in center and Young in left. Cuddyer is expendable. Platooning Span in order to keep Cuddyer in the lineup would be stupid. Trade that Clumsy Cuddyer and help the team become better.
I don’t understand the Cuddyer bashing … an arm like his is hard to find… now if he could only stay healthy…
Ron Gardenhire is not smart enough to bring up Liriano for the starting rotation. He is Pohlads puppet and will do anything to save the organization money!
it would explain why gomez and Daigle at AAA do seem to get any mention even though they’re both pitching lights out
Gardenhire and the coach did not prepare the team well enough to beat the Yankees. Then they turn around and blame the players for losing the games in order to save their own skin. Notice that the only player doing good is Span, who was recently brought up to the majors, and who hasn’t had time for the Twins manager and coaches to reduces his skills to mediorcrity.
Mr. Gardenhire spends all his time eating instead of trying to figure out how to make the team better. He is Pohlad’s pocket puppet and will not bring Liriano up in order to save money and keep salaries down. The manager and pitching coach at Rochester should be brought up to the Twins to run the team. History shows that they are alot better with the players and get the most out of their abilities.
Gardenhire is a manager who does practically nothing to better a team with the most natural talent in the major leagues. He simply sits on the bench and day dreams about how he is going to get his kid to the majors to start for the Twins in the infield. I agree, the Cliburn brothers at AAA would be much better for the Twins team.
Gardenhire keep the team from winning by his platooning and bad decisions.
Gardenhire is Pohlads puppet who pretends to be trying to win games while simply keeping salaries down. No matter how good the Twins do down the stretch, Gardenhire will find a way to lose the division race, probably by putting Punto in the lineup whenever possible. Punto is Gardenhire’s puppet to lose games, just as Gardenhire is Pohlad’s puppet.
We just don’t have the type of pitching to shut down really good hitters.
We are having a really good season considering how average and young our pitching is.
steve,
“Gardenhire is a manager who does practically nothing to better a team with the most natural talent in the major leagues”
The Twins are “a team with the most natural talent in the major leagues”?
You’re not even close!
Having six effective starting pitchers is a nice problem to have.
The Twins don’t have that problem, just like they don’t have four good outfielders. hernandez, in no way, can be described as “effective.”
