Twins 4, Indians 2: Span to the rescue
Posted on July 27th, 2008 – 4:12 PMBy Joe Christensen
CLEVELAND — Sitting here in the press box, trying to estimate how far Denard Span ran to make his mind-boggling catch on David Dellucci’s eighth-inning sacrifice fly.
The Twins defeated Cleveland 4-2, and Manager Ron Gardenhire called it “the biggest play of the game.”
Span said he was playing straight away and deep, trying to prevent a double.
So, if he was standing somewhere in from the 400-foot sign in center field, I’m guessing he ran 125 feet to get to the spot where he caught the ball. The catch came just in front of the 370-foot sign in left-center field.
“That catch out in center field, — I just can’t say enough about it,” Gardenhire said. “That was unbelievable.”
161 Responses to "Twins 4, Indians 2: Span to the rescue"
First!
Nice to get out of town with 2 of 3.
Nothing on Liriano?
Chief, game starts in 30 min. Nothing’s going to happen until after the game.
I am hoping Liriano doesn’t pitch in the game
Denard Span has been nothing short of incredible with his play in the outfield. I suspect him to be a candidate for a golden Glove award if not this year then 2009 for sure! this man can play all three OF positions and even now he is showcasing himself as a very good leadoff hitter…(nothing on Liriano yet)…
I have never been a Gardy apologist, but what he’s gotten out of his team this year is nothing short of amazing. Craig Monroe is 3rd - THIRD - on this team in homeruns with 8. Bill Smith has done a terrible job assembling a roster this year - emphasis on THIS YEAR. I’m not calling for his head, but has he made any moves, other than re-signings, that have made this club better? It’s unexpected starting pitching strength and contributions from players already here (like Casilla, Buscher), and luck (skill?) with RISP that has gotten this team to where they are. If the Twins make the playoffs, it would be a crime for anyone but Gardy to be manager of the year. And Bill Smith - sorry bud, Twins are succeeding in spite (and not because of) your moves.
Gameday has Liriano as the starter…
good Liriano article:
It’s extremely disappointing as a Twins fan to feel like the front office isn’t doing everything they can to give the team the best chance to compete.
I don’t know how realistic it is to ask for them to go get Beltre. I don’t know if Seattle is even willing to trade him (they aren’t a cash-strapped organization), and don’t know what the asking price would be. So it’s a little hard to get too upset at the front office for not making a deal like that.
However, seeing Liriano continue to start games in AAA, while Livan Hernandez continues to take the mound for the Twins is another story.
That’s a self-inflicted wound.
And it’s impossible to rationalize that decision. Why?
I put a lot of time, effort, money and emotion into being a Twins fan. It’d be nice to have the feeling the Twins front office was giving me the same level of effort I give them.
I think that Smith made some good moves (bringing Delmon and Livan on board), made some bad moves (Lamb, Everett, Monroe) and some ugly moves (Resigning Rincon).
The pitching is ok. If Neshek was healthy and Liriano was healthy at the beginning of the season, it would have been better. The bats are better this year and at least there is a meaningful bench for a change.
Compared to the competition, I think that this team is wining despite Gardy’s inability to manage. All he does is making a lineup and sitting through the game, arguing here and there and going through the cookie cutter approach of reliever use (which has cost this team 4-5 games this season.) Look at this number:
of the 3970 plate appearances by Twins batters so far this season, only 57 were by a pinch hitter (this includes the games at NL parks where the pitcher was PH about 15 times.) This ranks dead last in the majors. So does defensive substitution use, so does pinch runner use and the last time Gardy made a double switch in an NL park was in 2003.
The guy does not manage. He makes a lineup and watches the game…
Honestly, the Twins could have brough almost any veteran FA pitcher on board if they you wanted was an innings eater and put up a > 5.5 ERA. He’s on pace to be historically bad in terms of hits allowed. Delmon has been OK but if they didn’t have him, the RISP avg might be > .400. OK an exaggeration. But the one thing this starting staff is missing is a guy who can make guys swing and miss - highlighted by the Yankees and Red Sox debacles. For teams swinging hot bats, you can’t have pitchers who succeed by “pitching to contact”. The Twins lack the guy who has stuff that can’t be touched. Wait - they might have a guy like that, but refuse to promote him! Bottom line - Twins fan first - have thoroughly enjoyed this season. My feeling is that when you have a season that’s been as unexpected as this, you have to take advantage. Look at what happened to Cleveland this year - you never know what’s going to happen. What if one of Morneau/Mauer gets hurt in the next couple of years (like Hafner/Martinez for the Indians this year)? Or Nathan? You can’t count on good injury fortune all the time so you have to take advantage when you get the chance. Come on Mr. Smith - redeem yourself.
I do agree that Gardy’s lineup/in-game management is average at best. In terms of managing a clubhouse/getting the most out of his guys, I don’t know if there’s anyone better.
I agree that Liriano needs to be in the majors right now (not many people would disagree.) For some reason, Smith is not willing to DFA Bass to make this happen. Liriano’s next scheduled start is next Friday, August 1, the day after the trading deadline and I am willing to bet that it would be with the Twins.
For some strange reason Smith is thinking that he might get something useful for someone like Bass or he is trying to move one of Monroe/Lamb/Buscher/Livan/Punto/Reyes to clear a spot.
Not sure what is going one, but I bet it is going on and by Liriano will make his next start Friday with the Twins against Cleveland.
This ranks dead last in the majors
Out of curiosity…what is #1 in the majors (non NL of course)
I’d be curious where they compare to the Yankees and Boston.
If you have a lineup that is producing…what’s the point of pinch hitting?
Manny wants to be traded. I’d take his bat if Boston didn’t want too much.
And on the subject of trade rumors…how about this year’s edition of “Manny & the Sox”?
Once again, Boston is tired of Manny and his antics, and once again Manny is open to being traded.
This time his contract is expiring at the end of the year.
08 Manny is 07 Rodrqiuez.
crap Liriano gave up a 3 run jack, he will probably get sent to AA
Liriano threw 102 pitches today in six innings. He gave up a three run homer in the 6th. 6 innings, 8 hits, 4 ER, 1 BB, 9 K’s.
yeah, he was more hittable but still striking out guys. I hope he pitches vs Cleveland friday
So according to BB2N, the teams the Twins are calling regarding 3B are all starting to ponder as to Span’s availablility.
This is the plight of the trade market.
He was tried at the end…hit a batter, then walked a batter…then the 3 run hr….otherwise another dominate performance. Call him up already.
If he pitched today, he likely won’t be available to pitch until Friday.
So they’ll likely wait until Thursday to make the callup official (in order to give BS the most amount of time to make roster changes)
liriano needs to stay in AAA he gave up 4 runs in the minor leagues what do you think he would of given up in a big league game
It takes two to make a move(s). It’s not only what are the Twins looking for, it’s also what the other team is asking. Foe instance: is it worth Baker or Blackburn and a Triple A prospect for a new 3rd baseman, righthanded bat off the bench, or another arm in the bullpen?
I think Baker would be untouchable
I agree Jerry. You don’t mortgage the future (which looks pretty good) to compete in a year where nothing was expected. I love the fact that the Twins are in the play-off chase, but they can’t afford to ship off the future pieces. That being said, a right-handed bat would be a welcome addition to this team.
I think the Twins can give up one of the arms… if nothing else of use.
The arm to go would be Hernandez, but I don’t see that happening.
So how did the Brewers go past the Twins in their record and yesterday tied for first? Not by be cautious or timid. . . I am tired of seeing anything Wisconsin does in any sport fly in our faces - out here in SoCal I am waiting for some go old Nordski guts! Ar least the Vikes are showing some, but I must say the Twins are showing everyone what a surprise they are - now it is time to seize the moment and the division lead!!
Not by be cautious or timid…
And it seems widely accepted that the Brewers will likely not have Sabathia (and quite possibly Sheets as well) next season.
The Twins trade for a 3B, but aren’t able to keep him after 2008. Thus causing that SAME hole to be there again.
Hughes is the 3B of the future.
The Brewers are going for it in large part because it is clear they can win and they never have won
Span is NOT for sale. Span will be very important for this team for years to come. he has such a great eye at the plate hits for average with line drive power, and his defense is exceptional. I see him playing 3 times a week when Young, Cuddyer and Gomez are healthy. Again Span is too important to trade, especially if Gomez continues to struggle this year.
Any latest rumors though on the 3B market?
Liriano needs to rot in AAA a little longer. Gardy sent a message to Casilla and Span earlier by sending them down when they thought they should stay. They got the message. Liriano should stay even loner - he has a poor work ethic and is stubborn. Worse yet, he has a heir of entitlement - that he was good once and should be treated better. Could be another one hit wonder that never regains his dominance.
I vote to trade him for Adrian Beltre before people realize Liriano will never be the same.
Liriano goes 6 Innings, 4 ER, 9 SO and got the win….better be his last AAA start…
Everett 1-for-4…are we really going to make room for this guy and if so, then who goes….buscher? I can bare the thought of LNP as our everyday third baseman again!
I thought based on Joe C.’s recent blogs that Detroit was supposed to sweep the White Sox this weekend? Oh well, another whiff…
No…let the “franchise” rot a little longer in AAA. Its less an issue of his arm, and more of an issue about the gray matter between his ears. Trade him for the good fielding/power hitting 3rd baseman we haven’t had in years - Beltre. This team needs the every day bat right now more than a hit and miss every 5th day pitcher.
Fry Dog, you have to be kidding me
Sorry Frankie - I’m dead serious. Turn the page ahead about 3 years and you will have one of the following:
1) Francisco is still a struggling pitcher trying to master his new mechanics and get to a .500 record
2) Three more stints on and off the DL and the emergence of an Al Newman/Sidney Ponson, Boof Bonser-like paunch.
3) Out of major league baseball and trying to turn a new leaf after his 2nd and 3rd DWI’s by getting a fresh start with the St. Paul Saints.
Best case scenario is a .500 pitcher every 5th day. Trade him for every day Beltre now.
All you all wanting them to not trade anyone for a hitter, who will be at SS or 3B or RF or DH (for those that don’t like Kubel) next year? Other than Hughes, who came out of nowhere somewhat as a prospect, they have no one in the minors that looks like they can help next year.
If you aren’t willing to trade, and you won’t sign FAs, aren’t you, as Torii Hunter said, always playing for next year, but next year never comes?
Let’s relax and enjoy this year. Our starting pitching has been good and with Liriano should get better. Our stars are playing well. Our rookies are playing well. Hopefully Luke Hughes comes up in September and impresses every one. There is plenty of time to trade excess player. 08 is gravey. Look out for the Twins in 09 & 10.
Exactly Mike. The Twinkies haven’t gone beyond the ALCS since they had balanced power hitters in the ‘87 to ‘91 era. If you give up power at catcher on a team like the Twins (with Mauer that’s acceptable) but you CAN’T also give it up at third base.
Trade a young pitcher (i.e. Liriano) for a good fielding/POWER HITTING 3rd baseman (Beltre) - or you are right, next year will never get here and this year will start like a lion and go out like Mike Lamb.
Fry Dog, those are just predictions based on your opinion that they should trade me. Someone who holds the opinion that they should hold on to me could say in 3 years I:
1)Have mastered my new Mechanics and consistently wins 15 plus games with an ERA at 3.5 or lower
2)Have stayed perfectly healthy with the body of a Greek Adonis
3)Have continued to get hammered on a consistent bases but somehow never get pulled over
And even if you want it to happen, do you really think the Twins are going to trade me? NO FRICKING WAY. You know how much the Twins love pitching.
Might as well think of another way to get a 3rd baseman, because it won’t be by giving me up.
gw, what will be different if you aren’t willing to trade to close the holes in RF, SS, 3B? You mentioned 1 guy, do you really think Luke Hughes will move them from where they are now to WS contenders? Do you think all 5 young guys will stay healthy? This organization is generally afraid to go for it, that’s why they didn’t make any deals for DH or 3B earlier this decade to get over the hump and win it all. They’d rather play for tomorrow than today.
The Twins have a history of getting rid of head case pitchers i.e. JC Romero, Kyle Lohse, Matt Garza, even if they do better elsewhere. Let them go somewhere else and pitch well every 5th day but trade Frankie for someone that can hit home runs for THIS TEAM now.
I guarantee that Beltre for the next 3 years would equal more wins for this team that if Frankie is here for the same time period.
Yes, the Twins management likes pitching, but only those they can mold their way - Frankie is too lazy and too stubborn. Get what you can for him now…
Beltre has skeletons in his closet also. Seattle called him the Mariners biggest bust ever. He won a Gold Glove with the lowest fielding percentage and most errors of any third baseman. He denies the steroid rumors, but it hangs over his head. But the most scandalous story about him is his risky behavior! Found this:
“In his effort to maintain his Gold Glove title, Beltré forgoes personal safety including the use of a protective cup.”
(that’s not smart)
On Span, I was never a believer until this year, but I was certainly outspoken in wanting him up and felt he earned it. I’m glad he’s playing well. I hope he can keep it up. He’s kind of fun to watch, as he plays good D, and he knows how to work a pitcher and has good ABs.
“There was a very specific rehab protocol that was laid out and I think we all followed it to the letter,” Bill Smith said. “It’s a long, slow, boring year of rehab and I give Francisco a lot of credit for sticking with it, because it’s tough mentally.”
If that’s lazy, then what the hell does that make you Fry Dog?
I think Span has surprised everyone. You have to give him credit for not giving up. He does fit the Twins mold - fundamentally sound, hustles, plays smart, modest - maybe that’s why he’s leap-frogging ahead of others now in this organization.
Good for Span…now maybe Buscher will develop the same way and hit 25 home runs as a third baseman. Then it will make my Beltre plea look silly.
I would welcome that!
If the Twins are serious about getting a third baseman (Beltre, Atkins) and have to give up an arm, send Slowey. Baker is untouchable and has really flown under the radar with the season he’s having, and Blackburn and Perkins have more upside and have had better seasons. I don’t know who their 5th starter would be next year (Livan will not be back) but I’m sure somebody will develop. If we add a bat (and put Liriano in the rotaion), we will win the division. Go Twins!
Luke Hughes….Is he the savior? Not doing that much at AA…..
Hey Mix, have you seen the press clippings about Frankie’s “rehab regimen” from someone other than the GM that never witnessed his workouts? That’s right, several attest that he cut a few corners along the way. Earlier this year you could see his expanding mid-section…unless you believe he is “bulking up” by hitting the weights. Ha!
That’s why I say let him sit in AAA as long as possible so he gets a very clear message and develops some maturity and discipline. I think its 50-50 that he ever will. Some would keep him and hope, I would trade him to fill a definite hole this year when we still have a possible shot at the playoffs and not wait again for next year, next year, next year.
Giving up on Liriano would be the biggest mistake the Twins could make. How do you feel about today’s Mets/Cards game? Santana versus Lohse. Two of the top pitchers in the NL.
They both should still be on our staff, and that’s final.
Mudcat,
i can’t agree with you on Lohser. This is his first good season and its 3 years removed.
yeah, but he’s 12-2.
he should have tried harder.
Fry Dog, you’re a effing Dumas.
It would not surprise me if the Twins deal Harris before the deadline. They hardly can send Casilla or Buscher down. Punto is Gardy’s main man, and Lamb has the contract. Harris looks like the odd man out, when Everett returns. The team needs depth at SS, and Gardy doesn’t like Harris there.
Craig says it smells like Hair-dog is gone. Craig is NOT 100% certain, though. Craig believes Buscher secured his spot on Saturday, with his 5 RBI. There is a possibility that Everett could simply be released (doubtful).
craig, hard to argue with your theory.
also seems like span is settling in at leadoff. he takes good at-bats and has that sweeping swing almost like carew. do you think he stays when gomez returns to the lineup? might actually light a fire under young carlos …
B Dubz…see you at the Siants game in 3 years for Frankie’s debut in the Northern League! He may also be the new pitch man for Jenny Craig by then 
Hope I’m wrong, but doubt it
LaTroy Hawkins was DFA’d by the Yankees. He’s just the kind of pickup the Twins would make.
kmack,
“Hughes is the 3B of the future.”
There is absolutely no evidence that Luke Hughes is anywhere near becoming an MLB third baseman, defensively.
The only position he plays near MLB level is leftfield. He will have to hit MLB pitching as well as he is hitting AA pitching to succeed as a LF in MLB.
Thats a huge assumption.
IMO he is not a future 3B for any MLB team!
2-19 since coming off the D.L. with a bunt single…this guy is hot and the grit he posesses is out of this world.
I think a junior babe ruth player would even sit for that stint at the plate even if he was bringing the pop that game.
Can we put Busher at 3rd and (who cares which way he bats) Harris at short so I can cheer again for this team.
Craig,
IMO Everett will be kept at AAA until September 1, unless middle infielder injuries require his recall to the Twins before that.
If he demands his release, he will be granted that release.
Otherwise he will receive his MLB contract salary while he plays at Rochester until September 1.
With the LAD’s picking up Blake.LaRouche could be had at a decent price.Does any one there think he could the 3b of the future?
i thought i heard it all, but then i come on here and read “trade francisco liriano for adrian beltre”. oh man, you guys are really clueless.
everybody needs to face it, the bat the twins need for the price the twins can afford is NOT out there. Beltre is not worth one of our young starters plus minor leaguers. the twins are REBUILDING, this was supposed to be a REBUILDING YEAR. the fact that they are competing and playing at the level they are is fantastic, unbelievable to a certain extent. but to say, WE NEED TO PLAY FOR IT ALL NOW is ridiculous. maybe we just need to take a step back and realize what the twins are doing. they are an incredibly young team that is in no way shape or form at the highest of their potential. just imagine what this team is capable of in years to come. adding adrian beltre to this team (do we need to get the stats out again?) wouldn’t push them into instant world series winners. they need to stick with what they have or get someone on the cheap, that’s all there is to it. that’s not “twins baseball”, that’s smart. why can’t anyone understand that? they are 2.5 games out at the end of july, heading into a 4 game series with a chance to wind up in first place! who saw that coming?
I don’t think the Twins absolutely have to do any trades to win the division. They have been winning just fine with what they have and there is good chemistry. A pennant would be a bit tougher, but not impossible.
Chicago has just lost one of their best starters and they don’t have anything on the farm to replace him with. Detroit is winning on their last gasp. They might get close, but they will fade at the end. Also, neither team has any depth on the farm. Chicago has already took a big loss, if they lose another player, they will be completely hosed. Ditto with Detroit - we won’t even have to wait for a fade, they will flat out crash and burn.
Right now, the Twins are the healthiest team out of the three that are in this thing. At this point, that is HUGE!! They also have excellent depth. While it’s true that the farm team is a bit depleted, that’s only because most of what should be depth is already in the show and doing well. The depth will become more apparent as some of the injured players start coming back of the DL.
All this trade talk would be nice if they could be pulled off for a price. The problem is there isn’t a whole lot of don’t wanter teams out there looking to unload.
Beltre? Has anybody seen one thing to suggest that he is even available? He’s part of Seattle’s core. That would be like Minnesota trading Morneau or Mauer at last year’s deadline.
Blake? I’m sure trading Blake to a division rival is exactly what the Indians really wanted to do.
The guy from Pittsburgh might have been do-able, but his defense stunk. The Twins are better off without him.
Liriano will get his call up and somebody will get moved to the bullpen. My first choice would be Slowey because of his strike outs.
When Cuddy gets back, he’ll probably start seeing a little time at third base. He’s played it before, he can play it again. He has a lot more experience then he did the first time around and would probably have a better go at it this time.
The division, in my mind, is the Twins to lose. After that, it’s whatever teams gets the hottest.
The Twins have a history of getting rid of head case pitchers i.e. JC Romero, Kyle Lohse
Of course, that had nothing to do with the fact that Lohse stunk and Romero was better at losing games than holding leads.
I don’t seem to recall if Romero ever actually got better. And it took Lohse two years (and two different teams) to finally stop sucking.
he should have tried harder.
Right. And they also should’ve tried harder on Ponson too.
And why is everybody so eager to blame Bass, maybe the Twins need to just try harder there too. Or Rincon for that matter.
Oh wait, Rincon still sucks. So nobody suddenly misses him after calling for his head all season.
A good move by the Twins would be to trade Cuddyer, Bonser, Hernandez, Bass and Punto for a quality relief pitcher to help them down the stretch and next season. Cuddyer is not really a power threat to opposing pitchers. Players like Cuddyer and Punto are fan fovorites, but actually help the team win very little if at all. They talk a good game, but play like typical utility players.
Players like Cuddyer and Punto are fan fovorites
…I’m going to guess you’re new around here.
Only 1 guy is worth trading a starting pitcher (blackburn/slowey) for, and that is Atkins. That would help this season and the future immensly. Nothing against Busher but we are lop-sided and he is not proven. If the other paper is correct in their suggestion that it would take a starting pitcher to get him from Colorado, I say go for it. If some one responds with Hernandez you are wasting your typing time.
Punto missed a grounder to his right at shortstop in the game against Clevelenad Sunday. He did not dive for the ball, he was there but it went under his glove. He looked like a little leaguer. It should have been an error, but he did not touch it so they games their home team player a hit. The Twins announcers did not point out that Punto should have caught the ball. His miss led to a run for the Indians. Oversight like that is what keep Punto in the starting lineup.
Punto is a sub par player who was only supposed to be a utility substitute to be used sparingly and only when necessary. He has talked his way into the starting lineup with Gardenhire. Gardenhire thinks Punto is his little buddy and he puts him in the lineup when better players are on the bench. It often results in games lost by the Twins.
Mr. Gardenhire has never won a pennant with the Twins. Although the team has had outstanding talent, his management of the team has never resulted in anything other occassional division championships. I think his lack of understanding of statistics has led to alot of losses for the team. The Twins organization should make him take a course in simple statistics during the off season in order to improve his understanding of how the lineup card should be made out.
I wish I had more work to do. Because now I’m just left writing the same comments over and over again under 9 or 10 different names.
Plus if I had work to do, I could afford my meds.
mbi: The Rockies appear to have pulled Atkins off the table. They’re 6 games back in a division where the current leader is like 53-51 or something.
They’re confusing EVERYBODY right now, including teams that are looking to pry Holliday away from them.
speaking of the teams heart and soul and gardy’s little buddy, since he got off the dl 19 ab, 2 h (one the 3b miss played his sac bunt), .105 ave, .105 obp, 6 so, and 0 bb. plus a couple goofs in the infield.
and some people think he should be traded?
not to worry dick b and cooms have been making plenty of excuses, he’ll soon get a contract extension.
and some people think he should be traded?
The only reason I think trading Punto is riddiculous is that this is his last year…and likely nobody wants him.
With Harris and Casilla around, Punto should be finishing up his Twins career on the bench. He had a hot bat, now it’s not anymore.
Harris and Buscher the last few series have strung together better ABs than Punto. From here out they should be getting the focus of playing time.
The only reason Punto hasn’t been dealt (for what?) or DFAed (with only a few months left?) is because both Everett and Tolbert are on the DL (though I’d take Punto over Everett)
I’d wager if Tolbert gets back soon he’d go to AAA to get everyday playing time. Everett? He should stay on the “DL” until the rosters expand on September…or just go away.
Bill Smith sucks, Gardy Sucks, Liriano is the answer, trade Liriano…………. Geez, the Twins must be 10 games out and fading. I like the idea to trade Liriano for Beltre the best. Trade the franchise for a few more homeruns otu of the third base position. Sounds like a great idea……………not.
[…] more then one run in the eighth, needs to be somewhere in the outfield. In his postgame blog, Joe C. had this interesting muse: “Span said he was playing straight away and deep, trying to […]
I just hope people realize that if they’re okay with Blackburn or Perk being dealt for Beltre that they’d better be okay with Livan finishing out the season in the rotation.
Because I think the Twins would rather have a guy like Livan (who at least has experience) in the Rotation during a playoff hunt vs. some brand new guy from AAA.
If Livan goes, Bass stays. If Bass goes, Livan moves to the Pen.
No matter how it turns out with Liriano, one of at least Bass, Livan and Boof will be here after the deadline.
What does Buscher have to do to secure 3b, and put a stop to this tiring trade talk?
What happened to the stat geeks who were trying to convince the blog that Span could never be a MLB outfielder because his 2004-2007 minor league stats weren’t good enough?
Never mind that he was flying all over the outfield making plays and his batting approach and swing were totally different this year from Spring Training on.
Proof once again that a stat geek should take his eyes off his keyboard and monitor occasionally to get a glimpse of an actual baseball game.
TriniTwin,
“What does Buscher have to do to secure 3b, and put a stop to this tiring trade talk?”
To secure 3B, Buscher probably has to reinjure Punto if possible.
Stopping trade talk on the blog is impossible, and unnecessary. On the blog, its all talk, no action, no problem.
In fact, its very much like trade talk in the Twins front office.
sane great point, a lot of posts are based only on reports and stats without ever seeing the guy play. it is apparent that span is not the same player now he was reported to be over the last couple yrs. he stays, cuddy can dh and monroe dfa’s when cuddy is healthy if that ever happens.
sane-
“What happened to the stat geeks who were trying to convince the blog that Span could never be a MLB outfielder because his 2004-2007 minor league stats weren’t good enough?
Never mind that he was flying all over the outfield making plays and his batting approach and swing were totally different this year from Spring Training on.
Proof once again that a stat geek should take his eyes off his keyboard and monitor occasionally to get a glimpse of an actual baseball game.”
Might as well suggest moving out of their mother’s basement as well.
Denard Span has 105 at bats in 34 major league games. That is a pretty small sample size to be convinced that he is going to be a major league outfielder for years to come.
For example - Lew Ford. In 2003, Lew Ford played in 34 games for the Twins, and ended with a line of .329 / .402 / .575. Then, he hit even better during the first month of 2004, going .419 / .471 / .710!
Being a Twins fan - I assume - you know what happened next. Ford started to put up numbers that resembled his minor league numbers, and now plays in Japan.
Is Span better than Lew Ford? Perhaps. But his minor league numbers don’t support his hot hitting right now, and I would expect him to come back to earth, and his numbers should drop.
my new favorite pitcher in the system, Shooter Hunt, made his debut at Beloit on Saturday.
Threw 5 innings, struck out 9. Giving him 24 IP, and 43 K’s in his first 5 games as a professional. Talk about having talent fall in your lap in the supplemental round.
Pete D,
Difference between Ford and Span:
Ford crowded the plate and flew open early in his swing.
The other teams tried for almost a year to jam him, because of his proximity to the plate.
That approach failed because Ford’s swing was too quick.
After a year, they attacked him away with off-speed and breaking balls (only occasionally jamming him) and that ended Loooooooo’s MLB career.
Span’s approach is simple, compact and fundamentally sound. IMO, Span is going nowhere, because his approach and swing leave no room for a simple pitcher’s adjustment.
Sane - Saying statgeeks need to stop watching their keyboard and start watching actual games is insulting. Just because a person quotes stats doesn’t make him any less of a fan than you. Just because a person not only loves baseball, loves watching baseball, but also loves supplimenting his watching baseball with having knowledge of the statistics that results from the baseball he watches, doesn’t make him less of a fan. I watch as much baseball as anyone. I also try to back up what I see with statistical information. If that makes me a statgeek, so be it. But to assume that I don’t actually watch the game because I quote stats is just wrong.
Torii Hunter hit two home runs, drove in five runs and scored four runs
“But his minor league numbers don’t support his hot hitting right now, and I would expect him to come back to earth, and his numbers should drop.”
Some time back I listed a bunch of players who had huge minor league numbers and never did hardly a thing in the major leagues. I think I only listed ex-Twins. Every team has had a bunch of players like that.
There are plenty of players who didn’t hit much in the minors who went on to be excellent major league hitters.
Tom Kelly would always shake his head over people trying to translate minor league stats to major league performance.
Sane, yeah, it was only stats geeks that thought Span was not going to be this good. That’s why the Twins acquired Pridie and Gomez in the offseason and sent Span down at the beginning of the year. Because, you know, only geeks thought 3-4 years of playing mediocre minor league ball was predictive of his future. Yep. Only us.
sane so how are people liking Casey Blake in the Southland area? It sure would have been nice if the Twins were able to have got him. We probably offered up Boof Lamb and Everett and got a no. We should try harder next time
Tony,
I respect anyone who loves baseball.
My point is that PAST stats don’t have current relevance when players like Span and Casilla correct the deficiencies that caused their past failures.
I am a coach AND stat geek.
I don’t disregard stats or other stat geeks, but none of us should rule out current performance (regardless of sample size) when our eyes tell us that something has changed which may make the stats from past performances obsolete.
sane -
So, what adjustments did Span make to his swing over the past year? What is he doing differently now than he has in his career? What is he doing now that he didn’t do in his first call-up in April?
In your opinion, you think that Span is going to continue to hit at a level that makes him worth starting at the MLB level. You are basing that on what you see in his plate approach. ‘Stat geeks’ just form their opinion on the outcomes of years worth of plate appearances. Span very well may have figured something out - changed his approach, or whatever. It is more likely, based on his career numbers, that he is in the middle of a hot streak, and won’t continue to hit at his torrid pace. But even if he does, that doesn’t prove stats wrong - it just shows an exception to rule. That happens.
The New and Improved Craig -
“There are plenty of players who didn’t hit much in the minors who went on to be excellent major league hitters.”
Do you have some examples? I’m genuinely interested in seeing some.
btw, I actually agree that Span made some kind of adjustment or something in the last 12 months (if I’m not mistaken, he actually played decently the last part of last year). I do have hope that he’s actually a legit MLB player now, something I can’t say I’ve had in the past. I base that on eyeballing, and not stats and small samples.
I’m curious about Hawkins. He’s terrible when in high pressure situations (closer, Cubs, NYY) but he’s been good as a setup guy and in COL. Maybe he’s not finished. I wouldn’ve pay him over minimum or a TBD player, though.
I should add that I haven’t actually seen him pitch this year.
mike,
“Sane, yeah, it was only stats geeks that thought Span was not going to be this good. That’s why the Twins acquired Pridie and Gomez in the offseason and sent Span down at the beginning of the year. Because, you know, only geeks thought 3-4 years of playing mediocre minor league ball was predictive of his future. Yep. Only us.”
Include me in those who dissed Span in the offseason, UNTIL I saw his approach in ST games.
THEN I hit the brakes and made a U-turn.
He wasn’t the same hitter I saw on the Red Wings Squeeze Play from last year.
I saw very quickly that my previous assumptions were NOW full of cr-p.
And I reversed myself.
I know that will never get me elected to Public Office, but that was never a goal or a possibility.
Here is the plan. When Cuddyer comes back, he plays right, Gomez plays Center, Span plays left, which would be an EXCELLENT fielding outfield. Delmon, who can’t even catch a cold, could move the the DH spot. Release Monroe, Everett, Lamb. Make a spot for Tolbert when he comes back. Give Livan his release so he can sign with the D-backs or Dodgers or whoever in the NL. Get Liriano in the $@#^&*% rotation NOW!
mickey,
Span is going to stay and play most every day. He is as close to a perfect ballplayer as the Twins have had in years. By perfect, I mean hit, field, run, throw, fundamentals.
Gomez might be slightly superior to Span as a raw package, but his nothing bat is a glaring weakness. He is one of the worst hitters I’ve ever seen. He needs a ton of improvement with the stick.
There is room for both on the team, but I personally would rather see Carlos try to improve at Rochester.
Sane, hope you saw my next post on Span, as I too changed my mind this year. I was pretty much ridiculed on these blogs for pleading for them to call him up…..
BG: I’d much rather have Kubel batting than Gomez. I don’t think Gomez’s complete lack of ability to have a professional AB right now can be made up for by any amount of D he provides. I’d rather gomez not play right now, until either Young or Span drops back down to earth, or they are out of the playoff hunt and cuddy can rest more.
Pete D,
Carlton Fisk is one. He’s in the Hall Of Fame.
Puckett was hitting about .263 in AAA when he was called up.
There are plenty of others, but the real long list is the number of players who hit the cover off the ball in AAA, but never did anything in the majors.
The whole thing with Span is that he did hit well in throughout the minors. It all depends on what you are looking for. The last part of 2007, the hits fell in more frequently, and by 2008 he was a well polished product. Nice job by the Twins in taking a raw talent and turning him into a fine major league player.
PeteD,
“So, what adjustments did Span make to his swing over the past year? What is he doing differently now than he has in his career? What is he doing now that he didn’t do in his first call-up in April?”
His swing/approach was fine in April. It didn’t immediately show in his BA. (Small sample size, luck, displacement from the bell-shaped curve, etc.)
This year (since March, at least) his swing is compact (simple chop with his hands from his back eye down to the ball).
His approach is disciplined. He swings only at great (hitters) pitches on strike zero; at good (hitters) pitches on strike one and at strikes only on strike two.
The difference between this year and last year is amazing.
The same can be said for Casilla, but only since his last recall from AAA.
Span’s transformation started in the off-season or in ST.
BG’s scenario is perfect. The only thing I would (maybe) do differently is to see if I could get anything for the players he wants to release.
Gardy said Buscher is going to see LHP. I think Harris might be on the way out.
The Twins have to make room for Everett. They need SS depth, and Gardy isn’t fond of Harris in the middle INF. I think today is the end of Adam’s rehab assignment. I can’t see the Twins carrying more than six infielders.
The Twins I think will deal Harris in the next few days. Hair-dog should fetch a prospect for the Twins.
TN&IC -
Carlton Fisk hit .259 / .343 / .451 in the minors, and .269 / .341 / .457 in the majors. That isn’t a very good example.
Puckett’s minor league numbers also mirror his major league numbers - .330 / .382 / .446 to .318 / .360 / .477.
It sure would have been nice if the Twins were able to have got him.
jimmybee, I would wager neither the Twins OR the Indians were all to thrilled about the idea of sending help to the other.
On one hand, the Tribe is sending the Twins a potential fix to their 3B issues. Maybe for a few years.
On the other hand, the Tribe would likely be asking for something in the minor leagues, a guy that could end up being a fix for the long term.
AKA: The Twins trade for Casey Blake, who helps them top the Central for the next few years.
Meanwhile the Tribe trade for a guy who helps them top the Central for potentially the years beyond that.
It’s SLIGHTLY more attractive for the Tribe, but in the long term it’s going to be tough to get two teams in the same division to agree to anything that will help the other.
I’d rather see the Twins struggle this season and get Blake in the offseason than to see the Twins get Blake to win now and then get their butts kicked in a year or so by the guy they gave up for him.
Pete D,
You are adding class A stats and low A stats into you minor league totals, for Fisk and Puckett. That’s silly of you.
The Twins have to make room for Everett.
No. They don’t. They have Harris and Punto to cover SS. Harris hits better than Everett (and hasn’t spent half the season on the DL).
Harris also can play 3B and 2B comparred to Everett’s SS.
Even if EVERYTHING was equal otherwise between Punto, Everett, and Harris…Harris and Punto are more valuable than Everett because of their flexibility defensively.
T
I completely agree. Busher even plays better knowing that Punto is behind him. Look at the great plays yesterday. With Everett there is no range and there is no bat.
We need to cut him loose or try to trade him with Boof and Lamb!
They don’t need to make room for Everett. In my mind, Everett either gets DFA’ed or he continues to play with the RedWings. I find it hard to believe that he would want to continue to play for the RedWings, however, if he continues to hit, he may just force the issue.
Everett has a super glove, the bat has always been weak. Maybe, just maybe, he is working on his bat right now, and if so, that can’t be a bad thing for his career.
Thanks T. I heard that rumor has it that “That Darn Manny” may be heading to the Phillies to join up once again with Charlie Manuel. I can only hope. Between Favre and Manny it is like a broken record that keeps skipping.
Everett has a super glove…
While this may be the case, his defense suffered this season because of his shoulder issues. It’s not good if he can stop the ball but not get it to the 1B in time.
I dunno how many plays Everett cost the team when his throws landed well short. There’s one I can think of off the top of my head in that two-gamer up in Detroit early this season.
With Everett there is no range and there is no bat.
Stacy, the Everett we saw this year, is not the real Everett. BTW, his range was never the issue. He couldn’t throw the ball. He could pick practically anything, however, it didn’t do much good since he couldn’t throw it to first with any conviction. BTW, his bat is weak, and has been for his entire career. Maybe he is working on that part of his game right now, who knows??
Don’t even get me started on Manny JB. 
I don’t know how many years it’s been. But for at LEAST the last two or three we’ve had to sit through this whole “Will Manny be in Boston after the deadline?” mess.
He really is becoming the Favre of MLB. Will he leave Boston…will he stay.
And the Red Sox fans will eat it up. They’ll prtend to be all pissy and hate him. But after his first big hit they’ll throw laurels at his feet until ESPN tells them to start hating him again.
Stacy We need to cut him loose or try to trade him with Boof and Lamb!
We probably tried to get Casey Blake for that combination of players. No one wants small market Hand me downs. Ish!
Craig,
“Gardy said Buscher is going to see LHP….The Twins I think will deal Harris in the next few days”
IMO that would be premature.
First Buscher has to HIT left-handed pitching.
SEEING them is only step #1.
If he proves he can hit LHP’s, then moves will be made.
Maybe the Twins will shock us by eating mutton on the Lamb contract.
Hall of Famer Carlton Fisk’s minor league stats:
OBP SLG AVG
.333 .426 .229 - AA
.342 .419 .263 - AAA
Pete D, Just be intellectually honest. Skewing the minor league stats of Fisk with his rookie ball or low A stats is disingenuous to put it mildly.
Craig, to be honest, last I checked rookie ball and low A is still considered Minor Leagues. Don’t see how Pete is skewing stats using all “minor league” stats as the “minor league stats”, indeed, it would seem you are skewing them by leaving “minor league” stats out of your “minor league” stat compilation, basically cherry picking the stats to fit your statements. As far as being disingenuous, man, if that isn’t the pot calling the kettle black, I don’t know what is.
I think Gardy will feel pretty solid with Everett and Punto covering SS. Punto can also backup 2B and 3B, and the untradable Lamb, can back up 1B and 3B.
Gardy will give Buscher a chance to hit against LHP. Harris isn’t doing much against LHP anyway. Buscher has a good eye, and a compact line drive swing. Those type of left hand hitters often do well against LHP.
I don’t think Carl will be dining on lamb. Lamb is here to stay.
JimmyBee We probably tried to get Casey Blake for that combination of players. No one wants small market Hand me downs. Ish!
I know what you mean. But I am happy that we didn’t get Blake. We had him once and I didn’t want him again.
it’s so easy — just trade lamb, harris, boof and everett pujols and move him to third base. then trade reyes and livan for papelbon and make him the setup man.
come on bill smith, earn your pay.
Me Too,
AA and AAA is a huge step up from rookie ball. There are plenty of former minor league players who hit .350 in rookie ball that you never heard of. High class A pitching finished them off.
To you, a guy who hits .400 in rookie ball and .200 in AA, is a minor league .300 hitter. I would look at it a little differently.
Craig,
“Buscher has a good eye, and a compact line drive swing. Those type of left hand hitters often do well against LHP.”
Agreed.
Evidence - Mauer and Span
mickey mental Chase Utley for Everett
The point I was making about Fisk, is that he wasn’t a very good minor league hitter and he went on to become a good major league hitter, and a Hall of Famer. That is true, and the point is valid.
Hall of Famer Carlton Fisk’s minor league stats:
OBP SLG AVG
.333 .426 .229 - AA
.342 .419 .263 - AAA
There are plenty of other players who had mediocre minor league stats, and went on to very productive major league careers.
Even longer is the list of players who put up huge AAA numbers, and completely flopped in the majors.
The New and Improved Craig Even longer is the list of players who put up huge AAA numbers, and completely flopped in the majors.
Would Greg Jeffries and Matt Nokes be on that list?
The New and Improved Craig Sam Horn and Chris Sabo
Craig -
Now I’m cherry picking stats by using all the minor league numbers instead of just a year or two? Sorry about that.
Puckett had 80 at bats in the minors above A+ ball. Hardly enough for us to make any sort of claims about how well they hit in the minors if we are going to limit it that way.
As for Fisk, let’s just look at his numbers his last year in AAA. .263 / .342 / .419. The only number that isn’t in line with his career numbers is his slugging, which could be a lot of different effects. What kind of a park is it in Louisville? How much are Fisk’s slugging numbers inflated from playing in Fenway? Did he put on some muscle after he left the minors?
Craig, obviously there is a big difference between Rookie league and AAA ball. But when it comes to batting averages, does it also matter if it is done in a pitching friendly league as compared to the results put up in Salt Lake City? They are both minor league, and both AAA.
To kill off some stats because the competition level was different, well, that is just plain cherry picking, end of story.
sane,
Some players have so much natural talent that they can overcome their poor approach at the plate on sheer talent alone. Vlad Guerrero is one. Puckett is another. Delmon Young is hitting almost .300 while swinging wild. Delmon Young has tremendously quick hands.
Those type of players are rare. Most end up like Gomez or worse. Players like Gomez need to develop discipline, or they aren’t going to last in the bigs. Beating out ground balls to maintain a .240 average isn’t going to work in the long run.
You are right Mauer, Span and Buscher all have nice disciplined bats. Morneau has developed a disciplined approach also. All but Buscher has shown ability against LHP. Gardy is going to give Buscher the chance to prove himself against LHP. I think that makes sense.
Can anyone tell me if we traded Casey Blake and if so what we received in return for him. Also who did we use at 3rd instead of Blake
jimmy, the list of hitters who have mashed the ball in the minors and have flopped in the majors is a long list. The guys you mentioned may be on it. I haven’t checked.
The point is, take minor league stats with a grain of salt, they don’t mean much. Fun to look at, but they have little or no correlation with major league ability. End of story.
Harris is a younger player and can hit, why would they trade him to get Everett back in? Harris can play three positions and has a good arm, Everett is gone I’m afraid.
PeteD,
Why were you dissing Span because of his minor league numbers?
His minor league career BA is .287.
Compare to Torii Hunter (.269) and Carleton Fisk (.259).
If Span’s MLB BA surpasses Hunter’s by 18 points and Fisk’s by 28 points, he will be in MLB for a long time.
I guess his minor league stats (even without visual confirmation) predict that.
Blake was granted FA by the Twins.
Koskie was the Twins 3B.
One minor league stat that bears some consideration is AB/K. If a player whiffs a lot in AAA, he usually isn’t going to do better against the far superior arms in the major leagues. Most of the time he does far worse.
Speaking of whiffs, Craig Monroe is whiffing almost once every 3 AB. He’s trying to do a Phil Nevin impersonation. There has to be a better ballplayer than this guy.
sane says:
July 28th, 2008 at 12:00 pm
“Blake was granted FA by the Twins.
Koskie was the Twins 3B.”
Too bad. We should have been more aggressive in keeping him with the Twins if we knew that Koskie would be departing for more $$$
jimmy bee,
Greg Jeffries, Matt Nokes and Chris Sabo, Sam Horn.
Man, you have a great memory for obscure players. Sabo was a fairly good player for Cincy, wasn’t he? I remember Nokes with the Tigers. I remember Jeffries name, but I can’t remember the guy at all, or who he played for. Sam Horn I think was a Boston player, briefly. Fill me in on these guys, jimmie.
How about Joey Meyer from the Brewers?
Greg Jeffries- Mets Underachiever. Did well in a short amount of time. Never really was the next big thing.
Matt Nokes- Underachiever. I kind of thought he was a rated rookie and was supposed to be a power hitting catcher. Ala Piazza
Chris Sabo Freak show. Left zipper down during a game. Freaky goggles
Sam Horn just never did pan out.
I miss Jim Abbott. He was a huge inspiration for 1 armed pitcher’s.
Anyone remember Steve Avery the most unknown of the Atlanta Ace pitcher bunch.
We should have been more aggressive in keeping him with the Twins if we knew that Koskie would be departing for more $$$
Koskie didn’t leave over money. The sticking point in Koskie’s contract was the NTC. I think Koskie was settling down in Minnesota and was planning on retiring a Twin.
The Twins had injury concerns and wanted the opportunity to trade him if one of their younger options panned out.
Koskie didn’t like this, so Koskie left. The following year I believe he went on the DL. He got hurt in the first game of his triumphant return to Minnesota even.
T I somedays feel bad for how Koskie’s career ended but I sure don’t feel sorry for the amount of money he got during his playing career. Your health comes first and money second
jimmie,
Do you think Chris Cates has a future with the Twins? I think he is 5′3″. Fred Patek was only 5′4″. Do you think Cates will ever bat cleanup for the Twins?
I believe that Cuddyer was Koskie’s replacement at 3B.
sane -
I’m not ‘dissing’ Span at all. I have been vocal in my belief that Span should have started the year in center instead of Gomez. I think he is the best option for center field that the Twins currently have.
That being said - I don’t think that Span is going to continue hitting at the rate he is. His career minor league numbers are .287 / .357 / .358. For comparison, Jason Tyner has minor league numbers of .302 / .366 / .355.
Now, I think that Span is a better player than Jason Tyner. But I think he is the same TYPE of player. A light hitting, fourth outfielder, type of guy. I really don’t think he should be a starting right fielder, however. Especially on this team, in place of Cuddyer.
What the Twins do not need is to have another singles hitting, left handed bat playing at a position that is typically an offensive position.
Pete D, you’re not allowed to suggest Span may not be the end-all solution for the Twins anymore.
He moved to the Cool-Kids Table in June and now eats lunch with Justin Morneau and Alexi Casilla.
PeteD,
Span’s speed, arm, power, short stroke swing and defense puts him far beyond Tyner’s level.
He should play LF with Young/Cuddyer in right;
or
He should play CF with Young in LF and Gomez/Cuddyer in right.
With Cuddyer’s health history, the Twins need four starting outfielders.
Span in CF Cuddy in RF and Dy in LF send Gomez down to AAA till next year.
TN&IC who is better as an all around 3rd baseman Ron Cey AKA “The Penguin” or Jimmie Rollins from the Phillies. I would say Ron Cey
sane -
“Span’s speed, arm, power, short stroke swing and defense puts him far beyond Tyner’s level.”
He is better than Jason Tyner. I already said that. But he is the same TYPE of player. That, and Span doesn’t have any more speed or power than Jason Tyner had. Span has a career .358 slugging percentage in the minors, while Tyner had a .355. And Tyner seems to have had a ton of speed as well, as evidenced by his stolen base totals.
Span is the hot hand right now. I play him. I start him in center over Gomez when Cuddyer gets back. I let him go into next season as the favorite to win center field. But I don’t play him at either the expense of Young or Cuddyer.
Jumping in on the Span discussion. I think Span is going to be more of your prototypical leadoff guy then Gomez ever will be - he doesn’t have the patience to draw the walks. If Gomez ever approaches an OBP of .350 then maybe he can go back to leadoff with his speed.
I would tell Cuddy to break his 3rd baseman’s glove out again and consider him NEXT year for 3rd and have an outfield of Young, Gomez and Span for ‘09.
Twins aren’t going to trade for a 3rd baseman because the reality is that they’ll never get past the Angels, BoSox or Yankees in the playoffs!
The Angels are going to beat Boston in the playoffs starting tonight by beating the Sox’ in this next series just as they did the other day by completing a sweep of Boston at Fenway.
I have been advocating the Cuddy to 3rd. argument for quite some time now. Seems that many think that Cuddy can’t/won’t do it.
I am of the belief that if it means he plays, he will do his best to acclimate himself to the hot corner. It may extend his career, who knows?
Anyway, Span is probably not going to play center for the Twins, his arm is better suited for left, definitely not right field. Gomez has the range and arm for center while Young would be the better fit for Right. If Span is here to stay (I don’t see any reason why not), the time is now to start considering the future look of the outfield. Once Gomez comes back, I would really like to see this shift employed at least a couple times. If Young is going to stay the Left-Fielder, so be it, but I would really like to see Span’s speed put to use in Left instead of Right field.
It all seems so simple to the us fans doesn’t it? So why isn’t it?!?!?!
Oops - “so simple to us fans”.
I don’t care where he plays, Span is here to stay.
2009 Lineup I’d like to see.
LF - Span
2B - Castillo
C - Mauer
1B - Morneau
RF - Young
DH - ?
3B - Cuddyer
SS - Harris/Tolbert
CF - Gomez
Displaced Twins Fan in CO says:
At 2nd Casilla.
