Twins interested in LaTroy Hawkins
Posted on July 28th, 2008 – 2:19 PMBy Joe Christensen
The Twins are interested in bringing back reliever LaTroy Hawkins, who was designated for assignment by the Yankees this past weekend, two people with knowledge of the situation told the Star Tribune.
Hawkins, 35, went 1-1 with a 5.41 ERA in 33 appearances for the Yankees, who designated him after trading for Pittsburgh’s Xavier Nady and Damaso Marte.
Though Hawkins has struggled, the Twins apparently aren’t the only team interested in getting him, as several teams are searching for middle relief help.
Hawkins is making $3.75 million this season, and any team that trades for him would be on the hook for the remaining $1.35 million. The Yankees currently have 10 days to trade him or send him through waivers. (Note, updated those salary numbers after seeing Hawkins’ contract numbers again.)
If the Yankees can’t work a trade, he’d become a free agent, and another team would be able to sign him for about $140,000, with the Yankees on the hook for the rest of his salary. But because several teams are looking for relief help, there’s a belief the Yankees will make a trade soon.
The Yankees might be willing to add cash toward Hawkins’ salary or take on another team’s unwanted contract.
One person close to Hawkins believes he would like to return to Minnesota, where he pitched from 1995 to 2003. Hawkins emerged as a dominant setup man, posting a 2.13 ERA in 2002 and 1.86 ERA in 2003.
Since then, Hawkins has struggled with the Cubs, Giants, Orioles and Yankees. But last year, he posted a 3.42 ERA in 62 appearances with the Rockies, helping them reach the World Series. There’s a belief that Hawkins is simply more comfortable when pitching for a smaller-market club.
When he faced the Twins on Wednesday, his fastball touched 95 miles per hour. With Pat Neshek injured, the Twins have been looking for help in getting the ball from their starters to closer Joe Nathan, just like Hawkins used to provide when the closer was Eddie Guardado.
228 Responses to "Twins interested in LaTroy Hawkins"
I support.
Hey Hank!
We’ll take LaTroy and his whole salary for Mike Lamb and his contract.
If you want to throw ARod into the deal, well….ok.
Unless the Twins are finally willing to admit Livan can’t hack it, and he can’t, then bringing in LaTroy would be a giant waste. Liriano needs to be in the rotation, the only guy that isn’t pitching well is Livan, and Livan’s last 3 post all star splits have been absolutely terrible.
Bring in LaTroy, but Livan has to go, Bass has to go, and Reyes has to go. then call up Liriano and either Mulvey or Humber for the pen.
5.41 ERA is better than which current relievers on the Twins?
On a more serious note I was very surprised when I watch LH pitch against us last week that he still could bring it.
I know he was very comfy with Rick Anderson so maybe some of the magic could be restored through a litle Andy TLC. He apparently, at least last week against us, can still sling the rock.
Forget LaTroy, bring up Liriano!
LaTroy for Livan, the Yanks can use an extra starter and the Washburn deal isn’t done
Just say no.
Bring back LaTroy and send Bass packing. Lets grab Phil Hughes and Ian Kenneday, while we’re at it…
I hope we dont ever see Hawkins in a Twins uniform… if were to obtain him, who goes?
No way. Hawkins was let go by us, and sent to the minors by the Yankees for a reason. It is about time to bring back Liriano. i knew before the season that Lamb and that ss from the astros would not work. I couldn’t believe what we spent on Lamb.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
He has 1 1/2 pitches…doesnt anyone remember the reason he left? he couldnt close games! our defense did it for him…hense the reason Eddie became a closer (and had similar issues and left). No way do i feel comfortable with him in the game over Crain. I agree…our bullpen is not scary anymore, besides Nathan, and we need someone better than LaTroy (my curve ball ALMOST curves) Hawkins to fill that need!!
Wait…I do agree that it would be a scape goat for Livan. We could trade for LaTroy and then cut him, hense giving us an excuse to bring up Liriano. May was well sign Joe Mays, Eric Milton and Mike Trombley and bring back some of that ‘01 magic…
Negative to that.
We’ll take LaTroy and his whole salary for Mike Lamb and his contract.
I’m glad I’m not the only person who thought that.
It is about time to bring back Liriano.
That helps the bullpen zero. Unless you think Livan would be a clutch 8th inning guy.
Frankly. I love the idea. Twins made Hawkins, then he went to the Cubs and the morons tried to turn him into a closer (apparnetly not paying attention at ALL to his Twins career)
The size of the market is likely not a factor. It’s likely the fact that most of the time he’s brought in as a savior, so there’s pressure.
In this situation he’s being brought in to a hostile environment where the fans will hate him unless he pitches a perfect inning every time.
So he’ll flouish here as there’s no pressure or expectations to meet.
/sarcasm
In reality, why not? Bring him in if you can use it to dump a guy like Lamb…and then rid the roster of a Bass type guy.
yes, bring him in
LaTroy might be worth a try. We can make room for him and for Liriano. Everett, Lamb, Bass, Reyes - take your pick on who to trade or release. Even if LaTroy hasn’t been great this year, adding some veteran presence and his velocity would take pressure off Guerrier - who else in the pen, besides Joe, is reliable right now??
he’s been bad for a couple of years. I don’t understand the reason for bringing him back. It’s kind of like trading for Monroe because he killed the Twins one year….
oh dear god no! was no one paying attention wedensday when even the TWINS walked all over the hawk?? he is complete trash.
Nico,
I’d agree with you as soon as they change the rules and WINS are unimportant.
Whether you like it or not, the Twins are 14-8 in Livan’s starts. You can put out ALL the stat mumbo-jumbo you want, BUT Wins are the bottom line!
I’m tired of hearing how 0-1 losses are wonderful while 9-8 wins are garbage.
Regards,
they got monroe cuz he was hunters buddy, but the joke was on them cuz hunter never wanted to stay here anyways.
I thought we didn’t trade within the division. That is the whole reason I didn’t yell about us not getting Casey Blake. But sure I guess if it is anybody cheap we can get them even if they are in the same division. Sounds like a bunch of excuses to me. Oh well what do I know
Smart move, bring him in. Send Bass to AAA. But what would the Twins have to give up? The Livan and Lamb trades are pipe dreams.
With Bonser, Reyes, Crain and Hawkins in the bullpen you might as well just stick a fork in the Twins, we’re done. Let’s get a REAL reliever, heck bring someone up from AAA like Mulvey or Humber. Bonser and Reyes need to go and DON’T trade for Hawkins! Smith has already made 5 horrible acquisitions/trades this year, can we afford one more!
P.S. Seeing Lester pitch and Ellsbury continue to play great makes me sick that Smith dinked around and wouldn’t deal Santana to the Red Sox.
Right-handed D. Reyes.
You’ve got to be kidding. Where is the right handed bat we need?
Livan is 8-1 at the Dome.
8 wins, 1 loss.
where’s the love?
Joe C this is a joke right? Do we miss Juan Rincon and his 6.15 era so much that we want LaTroy and his 5.71 era.
0-1 losses happen when there is a good pitched game and a lack of offense, at least the team has a chance to win.
regardless of Livan’s fluke record, an era of over 5 doesn’t cut it. Twins are only 4-5 in Livan’s last 9 outings. His era over those 9 games is 6.11 and that’s even including 2 games against horrible NL West teams he only let up a combined 2 earned runs.
So, you throw out those 2 games, the other 7 games his era has been 7.85…..say what you want about win/loss record, which has very little to do about the effectiveness of a pitcher, he is not giving the Twins a good chance to win and he is simply getting extremely lucky.
They keep throwing him out there, the Twins have no shot at the playoffs.
Some of you guys have awful short memories, he wasnt anygood then and he isnt any good now.
Those clamoring for Mulvey or Humber. Have you seen how they have pitched this year? I think Hawkins is an upgrade over Bass and Boof. I wouldn’t give up more than a low C level prospect for him though. And those wanting to get rid of Reyes. Do you want NO lefty relievers in the bullpen? Without Reyes that leaves Breslow as the lone Lefty reliever. No Thanks!
Depends how much he costs. Don’t trade, unless it is an Everett/Lamb type transaction. Pick him up on the cheap if he’s not moved in the 10 day window, and keep him on a short leash. If someone else deals for him before then, oh well, their loss. It is worth a cheap, low-risk opportunity to see if he can regain his setup form from the early decade. But keep that leash short!
Bob says:
July 28th, 2008 at 3:04 pm
With Bonser, Reyes, Crain and Hawkins in the bullpen you might as well just stick a fork in the Twins, we’re done. Let’s get a REAL reliever, heck bring someone up from AAA like Mulvey or Humber. Bonser and Reyes need to go and DON’T trade for Hawkins! Smith has already made 5 horrible acquisitions/trades this year, can we afford one more!
P.S. Seeing Lester pitch and Ellsbury continue to play great makes me sick that Smith dinked around and wouldn’t deal Santana to the Red Sox
1. what were these 5 horrible acquisitions?
Livan, Lamb, Everett, Monroe, and ?
2. Have you actually watched the Red Sox?
Ellsbury has been awful. He’s batting 9th now, and sometimes not even in the lineup, because he is hitting so badly and he quit running. If you actually compare Ellsbury’s stats to Gomez’s, they have very similar numbers accross the board.
Bottom line, both players belong in AAA.
I watched him pitch last year with Colorado, and he looked very good. I think Latroy is kind of a head case, so maybe he just needs a new venue. Plus…he throws 95mph. That’s harder than anyone in our bullpen can throw now (minus Nathan).
Nico,
You amuse me. You’re right, the Twins are 4-5 over his last 9 starts. They are also 4-3 in his last 7, and 6-5 in his last 11. See? We can all play games with the numbers. Regardless of that, he has deserved every win he has by having an ERA in those games around 2.3.
What?! Are they serious? Every time the Twins put him in, he’d blow it. I’ll pass.
Acquisition of Hawkins would not help the team. It would be a waisted move by the Twins organization. He would not help the down the stretch. Maybe Gardenhire is looking for a novelty act he can use to lose games and not win the division.
I have to agree with DP’ no LaTroy, bring up Liriano !
Nico, if you are wanting to throw out stats because of the competition, well, I want to throw out the stats in the Games that Livan lost. If I can do that, he is the BEST pitcher on the Twins staff.
Oh, wait, can’t do that can we? Well, Livan has won more games than anyone else on the staff right now. Has pitched the most innings, and yes, has what amounts to a season not to remember, as far as the rest of the stats are considered.
Livan is staying put. No way that the Twins DFA their only veteran pitcher with nothing but youth and inexperience left in the rotation.
Livan pitched 8 innings in a game that none of the young pitchers would have made it out of the 3rd inning. The guy saved the bullpen, and guess what, he needed to. The Twins are on a stretch of games with no off-days, and they needed that game, and he gave it to them. And, he kept them in the game too. What else can you really expect out of your pitching staff other than to keep it close enough so that your team has a chance to come back?
Dragon
What.An.Idiot you are: “Whether you like it or not, the Twins are 14-8 in Livan’s starts. You can put out ALL the stat mumbo-jumbo you want, BUT Wins are the bottom line! I’m tired of hearing how 0-1 losses are wonderful while 9-8 wins are garbage.”
YES DRAGON — you just wrote that you’d rather have a pitcher who gives up 1 run over a guy who gives up 8. As if the pitcher controls the team’s hitting.
The Twins would be in first place now if Gardenhire would not have made so many stupid move by his erratic platooning of players. He can never figure it out. He needs to put the best possible lineup on the field every days. He doesn’t have to platoon every time a team has a righty or lefty on the mound. He simply needs to put the best 9 in the lineup every day.
AJ….. 95 and outside dont get it done. Seems to me he badmouthed the Twins on the way out, but now that he is looking for a job thier ok.
The geniuses who want to dump Reyes are really about a sandwich and a half short of a picnic. Good grief, when left handed relievers are in such demand and you have one who’s given up fewer hits than IP and an ERA below 3, why are you so anxious to dump him? He might not be as effective this season as he was in 2006, but then who is? He was phenomenal in 2006…no one could expect him to duplicate that. He’s still pretty solid though…..oh yeah, I almost forgot, he gave up a run in the 8th inning on Sunday……so what has he done for us lately. Tar and feather him and put him on a bus to timbuktu….by all means.
“P.S. Seeing Lester pitch and Ellsbury continue to play great makes me sick that Smith dinked around and wouldn’t deal Santana to the Red Sox.”
Bob, you do realize that we weren’t going to get both. It was one or the other. If Boston had offered both in the same deal they would be Twins.
jama says:
July 28th, 2008 at 3:16 pm
Those clamoring for Mulvey or Humber. Have you seen how they have pitched this year? I think Hawkins is an upgrade over Bass and Boof. I wouldn’t give up more than a low C level prospect for him though. And those wanting to get rid of Reyes. Do you want NO lefty relievers in the bullpen? Without Reyes that leaves Breslow as the lone Lefty reliever. No Thanks
before making a post like this, please look up the numbers. Reyes and Breslow are good at getting righties out, Breslow it can be argued has been dominant againt them. The reason they are on the roster is to get out lefties. Well, Breslow has been great against them: lefties are hitting .167 off him, righties only .125. Reyes: lefties are hitting .211 off him, righties .326
Clueless Twins fans:
“Hey, what about Beltre…what about Blalock…what about Atkins…what about Sexson…what about Blake…”
Twins:
“Let’s see if we can pick up LaTroy Hawkins”
And you wonder why I don’t enjoy Twins trade speculation.
And the difference between Hawkins and Rincon is….???????
The current bottom feeder is Goof-Boof. With LaTroy, daBoof goes poof?
If we’re in a pennant chase I feel like giving up on Mike Lamb right now is the wrong thing to do.
No to speak for Dragon, but yeh, I would rather have a pitcher win a game for me than going to see a loss.
Heck, if our entire pitching staff would be all Livan clones right now, the Twins would have the worst era in the league, but guess what, they would match that up with the best won/loss record in the league too.
If I had my choice of best era or best won/loss record, I would take the best won/loss record any day, wouldn’t you???????
Me Too says:
July 28th, 2008 at 3:25 pm
Nico, if you are wanting to throw out stats because of the competition, well, I want to throw out the stats in the Games that Livan lost. If I can do that, he is the BEST pitcher on the Twins staff.
Oh, wait, can’t do that can we? Well, Livan has won more games than anyone else on the staff right now. Has pitched the most innings, and yes, has what amounts to a season not to remember, as far as the rest of the stats are considered.
Livan is staying put. No way that the Twins DFA their only veteran pitcher with nothing but youth and inexperience left in the rotation.
Livan pitched 8 innings in a game that none of the young pitchers would have made it out of the 3rd inning. The guy saved the bullpen, and guess what, he needed to. The Twins are on a stretch of games with no off-days, and they needed that game, and he gave it to them. And, he kept them in the game too. What else can you really expect out of your pitching staff other than to keep it close enough so that your team has a chance to come back?
Marlins are every bit as good as the Twins, have won only 2 less games in a much tougher division, yet the oldest starter they have is 2.
You and the Twins are your ridiculous fixation on “veteran presence” is a joke and is one major reason why the Twins will never be a serious World Series contender until this franchise is completely overhauled.
The Twins organization is not interested in obtaining quality players. They are only interested in obtaining bargain basement players they think they can market to the fans like LaTroy Hawkins. What a joke !
the Twins are 14-8 when Livan has pitched. That stat does not preclude future appearances. The High ERA and the hits given up are a much better indicator. While i am happy with the wins, i would be more than happy to improve the team and he is the worst starter of the 5.
Pay more attention to Livan’s splits before proclaiming him dead weight in the race for a playoff berth.
His home stats are worthy. 8 wins, 1 loss, 3.91 ERA, averaging over six innings a start. He dominated his last start at the Dome, holding mighty Texas to 2 runs over 7 innings.
Livan is the Twins 6th best starter, however he’d be a 4 or 5 on some teams. I’d love to trade him. Scott Baker is ready to be an ace.
Larry Ano,
If you read what I said, I prefer the win. If that makes me an idiot, I accept that appellation with honor.
Your welcome to enjoy your 0-1 losses and the pyrric victories.
We just differ on which is the better outcome.
Regards,
Are they out of their minds?? lets not forgot how many times the “hawk” blew so many games as a closer…puhleeze!! It was frustrating enough when Tom Kelly never pulled him during these blunders 
whoops, their oldest starter is 25 !!
Nico
You either misread my post or didn’t understand what I was trying to say. I agree that Reyes and Breslow are needed. Without them this team has no left handed relievers. Many of the above posts have said to cut Reyes and I agree with you that he is a needed piece to this team. I’m okay with bringing in Hawkins but not if the Twins lose a Lefty reliever. If you bring him in Bass is the one that is cut not Reyes.
I’d much rather see them bring Korecky back up than getting Hawkins.
Nico,
could you imagine how the Marlins would be if they were competeing with a bunch of 2 year old starters? They’d dominate for years…. of course by the time they were 8 they’d be free to sign with the Yankees. 
no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no
The fans are wise to the Twins organization’s acquisition of sub-par players who get marketed to them as novelties. LaTroy Hawakins–what a joke that is. The Twins organization are only interested in bargain basement type of players, as evidenced by the players they got for Santana. They got a really bad deal, but fooled the fans by telling them that it would take years to realize the outcome. Ya, right. The Twins game plan is to finish no higher than third in the division. That way, they can keep salaries down and make more money. I love baseball, but the Twins organization is making me nausious.
Time to bring up Lariano!! I guess I dont care if we bring in Hawkins, but then we have to drop one or some dead weight — Reyes, Everett, Lamb, Bass?, and most likely Livan. These people will not help this club take the next step.
Me Too says:
July 28th, 2008 at 3:31 pm
No to speak for Dragon, but yeh, I would rather have a pitcher win a game for me than going to see a loss.
Heck, if our entire pitching staff would be all Livan clones right now, the Twins would have the worst era in the league, but guess what, they would match that up with the best won/loss record in the league too.
If I had my choice of best era or best won/loss record, I would take the best won/loss record any day, wouldn’t you???????
low era gives you a chance to win…livan winning is a fluke.
I’m with Steve H he’s a better option then LaTroy. Era doesn’t lie and we already dumped a washed up old reliever in Rincon why do we need another one.
If I had my choice of best era or best won/loss record, I would take the best won/loss record any day, wouldn’t you???????
Here we go again. The typical: “Well OBVIOUSLY you don’t care about winning” argument.
I care about TEAM wins. The pitcher “win” has as much to do with how well the pitcher pitched as it does how well the offense supported him.
Continued dependence on the “win” as the most important stat to evaluate single player performance is riddiculous.
As far as bringing in Hawkins…if it means they can dump Lamb off on the Yankees than DO IT. Then you drop Bass to make room for Liriano and you’ve cme out on top.
jama says:
July 28th, 2008 at 3:39 pm
Nico
You either misread my post or didn’t understand what I was trying to say. I agree that Reyes and Breslow are needed. Without them this team has no left handed relievers. Many of the above posts have said to cut Reyes and I agree with you that he is a needed piece to this team. I’m okay with bringing in Hawkins but not if the Twins lose a Lefty reliever. If you bring him in Bass is the one that is cut not Reyes.
Reyes isn’t needed, Brelow is
What will/should the Twins do with Boof? Everyone, including me, has talked about getting rid of Bass, but Boofers has been even worse. The arguments that they might be able to trade him for something or that someone would claim him off waivers seem like pretty poor reason to keep a guy with a 6+ ERA around.
Dragon, I don’t think anyone–in retrospect–would prefer the pitcher who lost 1-0 over the pitcher who won 9-8. But that’s looking backward into the past.
The important question is, who would you rather have start TOMORROW’s game? The pitcher with the history of giving up 1 run but losing, or the pitcher with the history of giving up 8 runs but winning?
I’ll take the 1 run pitcher every time. “Tomorrow’s Game” is the important one, not yesterday’s, and I want the better pitcher pitching tomorrow.
Which, in the case of the Twins, means Livan has served his purpose. He and the Twins have been fortunate to get 14 wins in games he’s started, but it’s time to cash in those chips and bank the profit. I for one don’t think he can keep drawing to the inside straight and hitting it two of every three hands.
Bass is needed less than either.
Nico,
Low ERA gives you a chance to win.
When Livan pitches the team ACTUALLY wins.
Regards,
I don’t understand the “dump Reyes” mentality of some posters. He has actually been one of our better relievers and we are already lefty thin in the pen.
Hawkins? Ugh. He struggled when he was here. Very inconsistent, you never knew which LaTroy would show up. Then again, LNP for Hawkins, do it!
Why oh why are they not calling up Liriano??
Latroy is done, though I gotta say, there should be more appreciation for his time as a Twin. Granted, he sucked as a starter and closer, but he was a solid setup guy for a couple years.
Boof vs. Bass
Boof has better talent/stuff and projects better.
I am sure in the off season they will try to figure out what to do with him or trade him for whatever they can get.
Bass is a fringe guy, a AAAA player. He might get picked up if DFA’d but that is it.
Bass has potential. He should be in AAA honing his skills but he was brought up prematurely because our pen is so desperate. Boof has been given many opportunities. Between the two, I would keep Bass and give up da Boof.
This “Livan has more wins” argument has got to be the STUPIDEST thing I’ve read around here.
You people sound like a bunch of ESPN talking heads.
Livan has 10 wins.
Johan has 9 wins.
I don’t think there’s a person alive who thinks Livan is a better pitcher than Johan.
This conversation needs to end before we get sucked into a black hole of stupidity and dumped off on the Ken Rosenthal’s front door step.
Yup, Livan is using voodoo to empower the Twinkies’ bats during his starts. At least, I have to assume so, because he isn’t really winning with his pitching!
Wins/Losses is almost entirely a product of run support. A starter giving up 4-6 runs per outing can still get a nice record if the team is scoring 5-6 runs during his start. However, you replace him with a guy who gives up 3-5 runs per outing, and the team still scores 5-6 runs, guess which guy gets your team more wins?
Livan’s record is a product of run support. His ERA is a product of his actual pitching.
T,
Who said anything about Livan having more wins?
Please read closer my friend.
Regards,
T, I must admit that I kinda have fun with the Livan arguement.
Seems that everyone seems to put so much importance on stats that I have to jab at that by pointing out that the endresult is all that really matters.
What good does it really do to pitch a 1-0 game? Does it matter, really?
Who cares that Baker lost 1-0, other than maybe Baker? He got the loss, and the Twins got the loss. What difference is that really to a 14-0 game? Still counts as a loss, doesn’t it?
Well, same can be said for the opposite. A big win is a win, and that is all I care. Virtually everybody points at Livan’s stats and want to DFA him, well, not me.
Livan has value to this team. If he didn’t, he would be gone.
Sure, Livan has gotten lucky, who can dispute that, but what is wrong with getting lucky once in awhile?
I like getting lucky 
Anyway, once Livan cools down, and his record starts to reflect his stats (it’s bound to happen), he is gone. Until then, he is going to be pitching for the Twins, and I am going to love coming in here, busting balls on the wins are better than losses arguement, well, since I do like a win much better than a loss.
Colon won a Cy Young over Santana in 2005 on the wins argument…. sad but true
BTW, T, I have always been about the TEAM win, when have I ever said anything different???
Dragon, don’t be so simple minded. You intriscially know that what you are writing makes no sense whatsoever. We’re all happy the Twins won those games when Livan pitched — it just so happens it was extremely lucky, especially since he is getting such good run support. Put that run support behind any of Scott Baker’s 0-1 games and he wins handily. The wins vs. pitching performance argument isn’t an argument. These are facts. Livan is the worst starter on this team.
“When Livan pitches the team ACTUALLY wins”
The team is .500 in his last 10 starts.
“Anyway, once Livan cools down, and his record starts to reflect his stats (it’s bound to happen), he is gone.”
Seems to me it might be a better idea if Livan were gone BEFORE his record reflects his stats.
“This conversation needs to end before we get sucked into a black hole of stupidity and dumped off on the Ken Rosenthal’s front door step.”
Well, since you pulled out the big guns, I’m shutting up now.
If you look at the stats for the games that Livan won, it wasn’t from runs support.
Livan actually pitched very will in the games that he has won. He gave up 3ER or less in 9 of 10 games that he won.
Livan is more of a Jekyll and Hyde situation than luck. He is either good or really terrible.
the “win” stat for a pitcher is the wild card…
the stat that each and every pitcher should be judged on is ERA.
In other words, even if you have a cruddy win-loss record, a low ERA will get you work….
However, if your ERA stinks and your WHIP stinks (Livan), the win-loss record can redeem you as a wild card.
What’s all that mean? Livan stays (sorry T).
I still can’t believe with a straight face we’re talking about acquiring LaTroy Hawkins…when was the last time the Twins took a flier on a washed up player and it actually worked out?
Another thing for you Livan bashers to think about.
Friday got off to a horrid start. Gave up 5 runs in 1st 2 innings. Settled down to pitch a complete game.
IF any of the young pups had done similar, we would have been able to observe the brilliance of the bullpen for 6 innings.
Obviously from what I am reading, blowing up your bullpen would be a GOOD thing. I humbly disagree.
Maybe if the young pups watch and learn how to deal with adversity, they will become better pitchers.
Regards,
The second I saw that Hawkins got released I knew this heap-pile-scouring organization would be all over this washed up loser. Listen, we’re $25 mil below what our projected payroll was to be in ‘08. Can’t we at least pretend like we’re interested in talented players and spend a little???
Hold on the Mets are on the phone they’ve realized there mistake and would like to give us Johan and his 9 wins back for Livan and his 10. They are committed to winning now.
saam says:
July 28th, 2008 at 3:49 pm
What will/should the Twins do with Boof? Everyone, including me, has talked about getting rid of Bass, but Boofers has been even worse. The arguments that they might be able to trade him for something or that someone would claim him off waivers seem like pretty poor reason to keep a guy with a 6+ ERA around.
His era as a reliever is only 8.70…what’s wrong with that haha
Terry Mulholland is the only recent name I can think of…he actually gave us quality production for the money as a wash-up.
Amazing, some of you are conflating the setup man with the closer. Yeah, LaTroy wasn’t good as a closer, however, he turned into very good setup guy. He’s a hard throwing veteran that probably would do very well as the setup man for Joe Nathan. And, as a veteran pitcher, perhaps LaTroy makes Livan expendable.
BTW, T, I have always been about the TEAM win, when have I ever said anything different???
Your assertion that Livan’s W/L is an accurate measure of how much Livan has helped this team.
The W/L stat is the single most overated stat when used to measure individual performance
W/L record is a measure of a team’s ability to put together a successful ball game. If a pitcher gives up 1 run and losses it’s a failure of his offense to back up his outing.
If an offense scores 10 runs and the team losses it’s a failure of the pitching staff to shut down the opposition.
To further show why the pitcher’s W/L is riddiculous.
A pitcher can leave with a 3-2 deficit and still get the loss if the game ends 10-7. Why? The offense picked it up and overcame the 3 runs given up by the starter.
Likewise, a reliver can come in to a 3-0 game and give up the tie. Then in the next inning the offense gets a run and the RELIEVER gets the win even when its his fault the other pitcher didn’t do enough.
W/L, good measure of overall team success. Poor measure of any single player’s performance.
Larry Ano,
Do you ever wonder why Baker specialized in 0-1 losses? I doubt it’s because either he or the team wants that outcome. I have posted before, I think it’s unconscious psychology.
You can say the same with Santana…The team expects to win, and doesn’t think they have to work as hard?
Regards,
Obviously from what I am reading, blowing up your bullpen would be a GOOD thing.
Funny, I never heard that. But if you want to keep building straw men feel free.
I am surprised that no one has pointed out that it’s Gardy’s fault for wasting well pitched games when the team is going to get shut out. Pitch Livan when we get 0 runs. Then, we lose 12-0 instead of 1-0 and we win 8-1 instead of losing 1-0 and 12-8.
/s
Me Too says:
July 28th, 2008 at 4:02 pm
T, I must admit that I kinda have fun with the Livan arguement.
Seems that everyone seems to put so much importance on stats that I have to jab at that by pointing out that the endresult is all that really matters.
What good does it really do to pitch a 1-0 game? Does it matter, really?
Who cares that Baker lost 1-0, other than maybe Baker? He got the loss, and the Twins got the loss. What difference is that really to a 14-0 game? Still counts as a loss, doesn’t it?
Are you for real ???
the difference is, in a 1-0 game, the bullpen is usually saved. in a 14-0 game, the bullpen gets overused, and all those innings add up, and result in a bad bullpen the last month or two of the season.
Livan winning is a fluke, there is no reason to think otherwise.
Trading for Hawkins would send a message alright…that this ballclub doesn’t have a clue how to strengthen its lineup for the stretch run. JUST SAY NO.
If we can get no better than Hawkins, just promote from within. Korecky would perform better than Hawkins, for example.
I think when it comes to situations such as that, it could come down to who he pitches against.
For example, Santana was the ace last year. So the rotation was shuffled to maximize the number of times he started.
Other teams do the same thing. So he always ended up pitching against the other teams ace (ex: Santana and Sabathia I believe pitched against each other on 3 seperate occasions last year)
[…] According to Joe Christensen of the Minneapolis Star-Tribune, the Twins have interest in bringing righty reliever LaTroy Hawkins back. Hawkins came up through the Twins’ system as a starter, but eventually found his niche as a setup man before signing a free agent deal with the Cubs. Christensen talked to a person close to Hawkins who believes he’d like to come back to Minnesota. […]
T says:
July 28th, 2008 at 3:59 pm
This “Livan has more wins” argument has got to be the STUPIDEST thing I’ve read around here.
best thing you’ve posted today T!
Reyes should be gone.
Some pitchers have the advantage of better run support. Is that their fault. Cliff Lee has had it throughout his career. It just happens for some pitchers. Cliff Lee isn’t the only one I’m sure. Other pitchers have the opposite happen. I don’t know why we generally get better run support when Livan is on the mound, but we do and I’m not going to complain about that.
I set the minimum innings for this at 80 and AL only
Livan’s run support: 6.43 runs a game…5th highest in the AL
Perkins’ run support: 5.98 runs a game…9th highest in the AL
Baker’s run support: 5.53 runs a game…14th highest in the AL
Blackburn’s run support: 5.31 runs a game…22nd highest in the AL
Slowey’s run support: 5.13 runs a game…28th highest in the AL
Nico,
If you payed attention, Livan is inconsistent. When he wins he pitches VERY well, When he loses he’s quite horrid.
Unfortunately, the ERA is a very crude and irrelevant stat, when you are something like 3.3 in wins and 9/10 in losses. That averages out to 5+ but doesn’t tell you much as to HOW the 5+ was arrived at.
Regards,
I actually think Hawk would be a nice addition. He can still throw in the mid- 90’s with a nasty slider. After all, he couldn’t possibly be any worse than Bass or Bonser. I think a change of scenery is just what he needs. Hopefully, Smith can find a way to bring him in!
As a frequent game-attender, I gotta add that I am trying my hardest to avoid the Livan starts. I have seen him twice at the dome and it ain’t much fun. Both times we were well behind after a couple of innings (a loss to Milwaukee and a win against the Red Sox).
I am ready to see Frankie back in the rotation. Unless we are shipping someone to Seattle for Beltre, let’s get on with the rebuilding and move Livan out of the rotation (via trade or to bull pen) and put Frankie back where he belongs. It’s time to find out if he can get guys out at this level in any way similar to his former self.
And, no, to bringing Latroy back.
Yeah, Reyes should be gone, let’s bring up Cali. Brilliant.
Livan’s got the run support mojo!!!
I think the Hawkins trade would benefit this team if they can get the Yankees to eat Lamb’s contract in the process.
Think of it this way.
DFA Bass, bring in Hawkins for Lamb (provided they can’t find something else without breaking the farm).
That leaves a roster spot open. You can eiter call up Liriano NOW (sort out the details after the deadline) or bring up a guy like Macri or something.
Whatever the case, you’re essentialy trading Bass/Lamb for Hawkins/(Macri/Liriano)
I wish we could trade Hernandez and Cuddyer to Seattle for Beltre. Then Liriano could pitch again.
At home, Livan usually has the Twins wear the Pixie vests.
There, solved. Livan can leave, keep wearing the pixie vests.
Lien says:
July 28th, 2008 at 4:23 pm
I don’t know why we generally get better run support when Livan is on the mound, but we do and I’m not going to complain about that.
I’ll tell you why, Livan is a bad pitcher pitching against other bad pitchers. Twins have no problems with bad pitchers. They can’t hit elite pitchers.
TWINS NEED BATS !!!
Twins don’t need more arms, other then Liriano up and Bass out.
Hmm. Randy Johnson throws a eephus pitch…it makes headlines. They also think it will reinvent his career.
Funny, they apparently haven’t followed Livan this season.
Dragon -
Maybe you’re right about the “unconcious” psychology - or maybe you can look at the matchups Santana had last year where he was constantly going against the other team’s ace, i.e. Carmona, Sabathia, Verlander, etc. It’s fun to think major league baseball players are that mentally un-balanced; but I prefer to argue what can be proven or disproven through logic. So far you have told us that Liven is better because he gets more wins, and that (some) of those performances were directly related to the team psychology — you wrote “You can say the same with Santana. The team expects to win, and doesn’t think they have to work as hard?” — is there a basis for this kind of attitude of professional sports? Couldn’t the opposite be just as true, that with a very good pitcher on the mound you are more focused and confident in winning and thus play better and more relaxed?
Livan has value to this team. If he didn’t, he would be gone.
Sure, Livan has gotten lucky, who can dispute that, but what is wrong with getting lucky once in awhile?
First off, The Twins have a few players on their roster that don’t have value, but they are still on the roster, so that makes little sense.
The main problem is that in Baseball, luck almost never wins out. Livan’s W/L record is irrelevant. His stats across the board say he is worse than a substandard pitcher. His W/L record certainly will bear this out. As Twins fans, we can all breath a sigh of relief that Livan somehow won as many games as he has to this point being that his stats are pointing to historical (hits allowed)records of futility. There is no more need for discussion on this point other than to get peoples goat
the Dragon says:
July 28th, 2008 at 4:24 pm
Nico,
If you payed attention, Livan is inconsistent. When he wins he pitches VERY well, When he loses he’s quite horrid.
Unfortunately, the ERA is a very crude and irrelevant stat, when you are something like 3.3 in wins and 9/10 in losses. That averages out to 5+ but doesn’t tell you much as to HOW the 5+ was arrived at.
Regards,
I pay attention. for some unknown reason he is good in the dome and he sucks on the road. I can only guess it’s because he isn’t exactly in the best of shape and it’s easy to pitch in a non humid 70-72 degree Metrodome then it is to pitch outside in 80-90 degree heat and humidity.
If Livan would skip a few meals, drop 40 pounds, get into reasonable shape, he could handle pitching outside too.
T,
Does anyone really think the Yankees best offer for LaTroy is going to be Lamb? And why would the Yankees want to bother with Lamb’s contract and DFA him?
That one doesn’t make any sense to me… If Bill can get junior stein to agree to that… well, maybe there is hope… How about we sweeten the deal and include Everett? Seems like the Yankees could use help at both 3b and SS.
HAHA!
Livan’s gonna stay with the club!
And he’s gonna win baseball games (at least the home ones)!!!
Then EVERYONE will know that your baseball acumen is based on clueless (but always opinionated) nihilism!!!
HAHAHAHA!!!1!!!one!11!
I remember when putting the Hawk in the game meant you should just stop watching… The guy used to throw a real nice homerball or “right down the pike, and over the wall again” as my dad used to say before turning off the game…
do we really take a chance that we can get him in 2001-2003 form again?
He won against Webb, Lannon of the Nationals, having a good year I might add. He has beat Pettite too. Not all the pitchers are awful.
“The W/L stat is the single most overated stat when used to measure individual performance”
I’m still laughing over that quote and the whole premise. This isn’t tennis this is a TEAM game. In the end, the ONLY stat that counts is how many are in the W column and how many are in the L column. I don’t care if Livan gives up 10 runs an outing as long as we score 11 and the pups(and bullpen) don’t get used much. That is why Livan is here and he’s doing his job. Stats be damned.
We need a bat, I’d like to see Garrett Atkins in a Twins uniform. Package up Glen Perkins & Delmon Young. Bring up Liriano and sign some washed up reliever that Anderson can resurrect.
Trading Young would be stupid.
Carlos G:
I base my theory on this:
The Yankees might be willing to add cash toward Hawkins’ salary or take on another team’s unwanted contract.
They’re not looking for treasure in exchange. Lamb is an “unwanted contract”. The Yankees aren’t exactly going to be picking through prize pigs here.
I’d welcome Hawk back. Give him a shot, it wouldn’t hurt to switch him with Bass and the Twins could use some bullpen depth.
T
I don’t think they’d take on that much salary. Why would they?
Count me in 100% on re-acquiring Hawkins! I’ve been saying that for a couple of weeks. He was good with the Rockies last year. He still throws hard and has a big curveball. He can get people out. I’d take him over Bass in a second!
In the end, the ONLY stat that counts is how many are in the W column and how many are in the L column.
No duh Sherlock. You showed an ability to quote. But failed to show an ability to read.
W/L record is vital to evaluating the performance of the team.
It is terrbile for evalutating the performance of a single player.
IowaTwin,
You are wrong and have been on the wrong side of the fence on this arguement the whole time. The premise is correct, if your pitcher has a high ERA and a high WHIP you will eventually get burned. History has proven this over and over.
The only way you trade for Hawkins is if you can get rid of Lamb’s dumb contract.
Livan isn’t going anywhere.
Moves the Twins should look at are talking with Texas about Blalock.
See which pitcher it would take and call up Liriano. Suggestion here is Slowey or Blackburn
then look for a better relief pitcher. Hawkins isn’t the answer. but neither is Crain, Bass and Guerrier is going to wear down soon. Another lefty would be ideal.
T and Evets — thank you kind sirs, for providing some sanity to this blog
Livan’s ERA is high because he stays in the game on the days that he is getting the crap kicked out of him, in order to save the bullpen.
When the young starting pitchers get hammered, they are pulled early to preserve their confidence and their ERA’s are not destroyed.
If Livan was pulled early on his bad days (as are the young SP’s), his ERA would be 4-something instead of 5-something.
“Package up Glen Perkins & Delmon Young”
I wouldn’t trade either of those young guys straight up for aging Atkins, much less both. You’d swap both of them for a 28 year old who’s making 4 million a year? Jeez, you sure are generous with handing out the talent.
While that may be true sane, please don’t tell me you think Livan is a better pitcher simply because of his record…
At the time of his departure from the Twins Hawkins was the primary set up man. I belive he left as a free agent.
For those of you who want Humber up here, he has an ERA of 5.55 in AAA. A record of 5-7 for those keeping track at home.
Slowey or Blackburn for Blalock? The Rangers would pee their pants with joy if we did that.
I don’t know why so many commenters here think what we need is one magical right-handed bat that the Twins will ride all the way to the World Series. That bat doesn’t exist — and, our offense is functional enough as it is that I don’t see any need to trade who we have now to acquire somebody who would likely have limited affect on our lineup vs. the cost it would take to acquire (see: Adrian Beltre.)
The Twins have used the pitching side of the formula to the tune of 4 AL Central championships in the past six years, and since 2001, stable pitching has been our bread and butter. Watching Reyes promptly give up a one-run lead yesterday screams that we need reinforcements in the bullpen immediately. Why not take a flyer on Hawkins? He couldn’t close with the Twins but was successful as a set-up guy. Plus, I shook his hand after they won the AL Central in 2003 at the Dome so I’d love to see him back.
That’s right Jerry.
Hawkins left for the Cubs. Being the baseball gurus they were, they turned him back into a closer. He failed miserably (I’ll pause for the “duh”)
No problem Larry. I actually like debating the Livan saga every once in a while. There are few times in life where you get to argue a point that you know you are 100% correct. Livan taking credit for his wins is like Clinton taking credit for the internet boom or Bush taking credit for the housing boom before it tanked. Kind of an ‘out there’ comparison but you get the point.
And the Livan debate continues with Dragon. I love a friendly rivalry.
How is pointing out that Livan put the Twins at a 5-0 deficit in the first two innings is defending him?
I don’t care how he pitches at the Dome; he’s gotta pitch on the road too, and he flat out can’t do it. The only way we would’ve had to see any of the “young pups” do it would be if they had given up five runs to Cleveland. With one exception from Slowey, none of them have done that this year. Livan’s given up 7 ER and 5 ER against the Indians this year.
His overall line against the Central Division:
4-4, 57IP, 81H, 34ER, 11BB, 27K
5.36 ERA, 1.61 WHIP
The Twins are 5-4 in his starts versus AL Central teams. Unfortunately, he won his first four starts against the Central, so since then… you can do the math.
Since May 28, when the Twins’ miracle 9th inning comeback against KC happened (which had zero to do with Livan and his HORRENDOUS outing), the Twins are 2-3 in his starts within the division, and 6-5 in his starts overall.
If you put aside his first few starts, he’s been nothing short of one of the worst pitchers in baseball.
Ramon Ortiz had an equally impressive start in April, and was dropped from the rotation after a terrible May. Yet for some reason, despite Livan going 2-3 with a 6.62 ERA in June, and being 2-2 with a 5.68 ERA in July… he’s still here. The Twins struggle to put up .500 ball in his starts, because winning a start for him requires 6 runs. He’s lucked out to get 5.8 runs of support so far, and you can use the empty “bottom line” argument all you’d like, but he’s just not an effective pitcher.
The Twins were 5-5 through Boof’s first 10 starts this year, and he had a comparable ERA. The Twins are 6-7 over Livan’s last 13 starts. By your logic, shouldn’t Bonser be back in the rotation now? I don’t hear any Livan defenders calling for that.
The Twins have 26 games left against the AL Central. I don’t know how many of those games Livan is set to start, but here’s his line over his last five AL Central starts:
0-4, 27IP, 50H, 28ER, 7BB, 15K
9.33 ERA, 2.11 WHIP
Based on averages (him starting once every five games), he’ll be pitching 5 of those games, possibly six. Is that what you want on the mound against the White Sox and Tigers when we’re fighting for the division?
Livan’s ERA is high because he stays in the game on the days that he is getting the crap kicked out of him, in order to save the bullpen.
When the young starting pitchers get hammered, they are pulled early to preserve their confidence and their ERA’s are not destroyed.
If Livan was pulled early on his bad days (as are the young SP’s), his ERA would be 4-something instead of 5-something.
Sane you posted this same ridiculous point word for word a few days ago.
How is that a ridiculous point?
Qualler,
I agree that the Twins need an 8th inning guy, but I think a lot of people (myself included) look at adding Beltre as putting two bats in the lineup. With Beltre batting 5th, pitching around Morneau isn’t as easy of an option. The Yankees didn’t even bother putting anything over the plate against him. He walked three times in Game 2 of that series.
Also, the Twins are barely .500 against LHP, which Beltre crushes. In a division where we face Cliff Lee, Jeremy Sowers, Aaron Laffey, Mark Buerhle, Nate Robertson, Kenny Rogers, etc. routinely, a nice RH bat against lefties would be a big bonus to us. Plus, Beltre’s glove prevents us from watching the Brian Buscher circus at third base on a daily basis. Eeeeesh…
Trading Lamb and Bass for the Hawk gives the Twins a set up guy who throws 95 mph, gets them out from under Lamb’s contract, allows them to dispose of a bad reliever who is out of options, and creates a roster spot for the Franchise. Do it.
Livan actually gets better the longer he pitches. In the 6th and 7th innings, the opponents BA actually drops below .300 (just barely) — those are the only innings below .300 BTW. I think the opponents get worn out from swinging the bats and running the bases by then.
/s
T,
No, I agree with you and everyone else who says that W-L for a pitcher is overrated.
But in some cases (Livan’s case), ERA, WHIP and K/BB are also overrated because some pitchers are asked “to take a beating for the team”.
On a day that your pitches are just not working and the manager asks you to “take one for the club”, all your stats are going straight to hell, but if you are a Pro, you take it like a man.
For that, Props to Livan.
Now please replace him in the rotation with Liriano because Liriano is better.
And replace Bass in the bullpen with Livan because Livan is better.
“How is pointing out that Livan put the Twins at a 5-0 deficit in the first two innings is defending him?”
That doesn’t tell the whole story of the game. He then proceeded to put up 0’s for the rest of the game. The Twins lost because they couldn’t get to Cliff Lee, and when they had the tying run on second with nobody out, they couldn’t score him. This start gave the bullpen a much needed rest, and even you would have to admit he kept them in the game.
You can argue that ERA is a useless stat. The Marlins have the worst infield in all of baseball. Look at their pitchers ERA. Unless you strike everyone out, you have to count on your defense. Not saying this is the case in Hernandez’s case, but we are 4th in all of baseball in errors.
Evets,
Livan’s ERA is high because he gives up more hits than any pitcher in baseball.
It’s funny that Livan’s defenders point out that his ERA is high because he stays in the game, but then also bring up the point that he often has one bad inning and settles down.
If you go by the latter logic, his ERA would actually be HIGHER if he was pulled on his bad days.
Which is it?
Evets,
Thanks for paying attention.
Steve from Fridley has eloquently ended all Livan discussion (which is a bummer). That post is a tutorial on a terrible starting pitcher.
But all the stats aside and we’re playing the Yanks in Oct. Does any Livan Lover think for a second the Twins would win the game? I would have an equal chance to pick up a win as Livan would.
Has anyone bothered looking at how Hawkins’ season has progressed? He has steadily improved his ERA each month. If you can get him for next to nothing (and DFA’s generally go for next to nothing), why not take a waiver on him over a guy like Bass? Reunite him with Rick Anderson and let’s watch some smoke.
Sendric, yeah…it’s awesome that Livan can stay in the game even while taking a beating.
But I’d rather have a pitcher in there that DOESN’T take the beating in the first place.
I was copying Sanes insane logic.
Sendric,
I’ll give you that he put up zeros from the 2nd on, but with all due respect, take a step back and look at your argument.
You’re saying giving up 5 runs in the first 2 innings is “keeping the Twins in the game.”
Unless yours truly is standing on the mound for the Indians, I’m going to have to politely disagree with that as “keeping the Twins in it.”
Coughing up a five-spot when you’re facing the frontrunner for the AL Cy Young isn’t really keeping them in the game though.
Everyone takes a beating sometimes.
Actually, Steve from Fridley is the one paying attention.
That’s exactly what I thought, Steve.
Even if you ignore ALL common pitching stats, can ANYONE say they feel confident or comfortable with Livan taking the mound?
Based on pure gut feeling, is their a single person out there that says to themselves and/or loved-ones “Oh good, Livan is pitching today”? I think anyone who says yes is lying.
“Ellsbury has been awful. He’s batting 9th now, and sometimes not even in the lineup, because he is hitting so badly and he quit running. If you actually compare Ellsbury’s stats to Gomez’s, they have very similar numbers accross the board. ”
while you’re at it, check out Melky Cabrera’s numbers - close to .250. I’d take Gogo.
LaTroy’s worst stuff > Bass’ best stuff.
Dump Bass, this would be a good place to shift Everett’s contract. The Yanks won’t take Lamb because he has a 2 year contract.
OK, now package Bonser and whatever minor league arm you need to get Beltre. Then, call up Korecky who’s doing well in AAA.
Steve,
The Twins lost by one run, and nearly scored in the 9th off a lousy Cleveland bullpen. Do you have so little faith in the Twins offense that they aren’t in the game if the pitcher gives up 5 runs?
Tony,
I agree completely on the Hawkins front. I’ve been focusing on the age-old Livan debate, haha.
LaTroy’s gotten better as the season goes on. He’s at least worth a flyer, because I doubt he’d be much worse than Bass or Bonser has been.
Nearly tied it up in the 9th it should read.
but then also bring up the point that he often has one bad inning and settles down.
I’ve commonly stated that, not as a defense…just as an observation.
I’ve noticed that if he gets out of that ugly inning with only one or two runs he usually settles down the rest of the way.
Sometimes he’ll still settle down, but the ugly inning is too much for the offense to overcome.
It’s just nice to know that even when he has an ugly inning you can still count on him to usually go 7 innings. So in that regard he saves the bullpen.
I’d still much rather prefer to have a pitcher that doesn’t have that ugly inning period.
“OK, now package Bonser and whatever minor league arm you need to get Beltre.”
If that minor league arm is Shooter Hunt, run for door!
In comparison (see 4:56 above):
Slowey’s opponent BA is above .300 only in innings 3, 6, and 7.
Perkin’s 2nd and 4th innings.
Blackie’s 4th and 6th.
Baker’s 6th.
The reason Livan seems to be taking one for the team so often is that he puts us in that situation way too often. The other young guns are hopefully learning from their rare blow ups. With Livan, it is a way of life.
Say it aint so,Joe
Maybe we can trade for Jacque Jones too. Let’s see…who else never was the same after bolting from the Twins for FA money?
Sendric,
The Baseball Tonight crew ridiculed Ervin Santana yesterday for saying after his start that “I think any time a pitcher gives up 5 runs or less, it’s good.” I was right on board with them. Five runs is terrible.
And to answer your question: Yes. The Twins are scoring 4.9 runs per game. I don’t have faith in ANY team’s offense to put up five runs off Cliff Lee this year.
Of course I still watch, and I’m still rooting for them, but I also am realistic. Cliff Lee has been fantastic.
Additionally, I also didn’t have faith in Livan to shut the Indians down the rest of the way, so I was banking on the Twins needing MORE than five runs.
Either way, it’s unrealistic to be able to expect the Twins to keep putting up the 5.8 runs they’ve averaged for Livan in his starts. He gets a full run more per start than their average.
Steve,
I agree. Livan is getting a lot of runs per game, but if you actually look at the wins he has, only one win did he allow 4 runs. All the others, he allowed 3 or less. Run support isn’t why he won. The Twins put up 2 runs on Cliff Lee, and then two more on the bullpen with a chance to tie it. They were in that game. Period.
Unless you think it would have been better that he continued to give up runs instead?
Beltre is not the best 3B in history but it would be huge for the twins line-up. I feel all the Twins need to do is replace Livan with God and pick up Beltre and we can make a serious run. We will have to give up a solid pitching prospect and I would. This just might get us over the good but not good enough hump. Those are two huge upgrades and improves pitching, defense and power….and it’s completely doable.
Larry Ano says:
July 28th, 2008 at 3:26 pm
Dragon
What.An.Idiot you are: “Whether you like it or not, the Twins are 14-8 in Livan’s starts. You can put out ALL the stat mumbo-jumbo you want, BUT Wins are the bottom line! I’m tired of hearing how 0-1 losses are wonderful while 9-8 wins are garbage.”
YES DRAGON — you just wrote that you’d rather have a pitcher who gives up 1 run over a guy who gives up 8. As if the pitcher controls the team’s hitting.
That was the DUMBESTI have ever read!
The guys who want to dump Reyes can only remember about as far back as Sunday when he gave up a run in the 8th inning. It’s hard for their little minds to think beyond that. These guys are some deep thinkers.
Sendric,
“if you actually look at the wins he has, only one win did he allow 4 runs. All the others, he allowed 3 or less. Run support isn’t why he won”
Exactly. He got killed in his losses, but stayed in the game to take the beating to his ERA.
He pitched well enough in his wins to not require much run support.
Bottom line, he is not as good as his W-L indicates, but he is not as bad as his ERA indicates.
Sendric,
Yes, he’s pitched well in his wins and at home. I know those splits. He’s great when he throws a quality start.
Unfortunately, when he doesn’t, be basically bounces the Twins right out of the game with no prayer for recovery.
I’d rather have someone who gives them a chance to win consistently with an occasional aberration than someone who you just flip a coin with when he trudges out to the mound knowing that either the Twins are going to be in it, or you may as well not bother watching the game.
He can’t pitch on the road, he can’t pitch within the division, and over his last 13 starts, the Twins aren’t even winning anymore (6-7).
Like Powerslave said before… do you honestly get a good feeling when Livan takes the mound? You can maybe get hopeful about the Twins’ offense, but do you really ever find yourself thinking, “Oh man, Livan’s gonna throw a gem today?” Hard to expect a 5.31 ERA and 1.60 WHIP to do that.
Actually, that was theDUMBEST COMMENT I have ever read!
Steve,
The Twins are 4-3 in his last 7 starts. I can play this game all day.
And to answer your question, no I don’t love Livan, and I don’t expect him to throw a gem. I never did. But when people say things like his game against Cleveland was awful or that he is only winning because run support, I take exception. It’s just plain wrong.
Sendric,
Under Dragon’s logic Livan’s pitching performance in Clevland was awful because the Twins lost. Don’t look at any of the stats, when, where and how the runs were scored, not the Twin CF being carried off on a gurney, etc. etc..
Love LaTroy. He was our neighbor when he was here and a very very nice young man. He’s also a fine athletic person and a 95mph fastball with Coach Anderson’s expert tutelage would make him as good as ever.
Sendric,
In that case, I’ll play the trump card and say they’re 0-1 in his last one start.
At any rate, I think giving up 5 runs to a weak offense when you’re facing the guy who’s in line to win the Cy Young Award is a terrible start, regardless of how well he recovered.
If you disagree, that’s fine. You’re entitled to your opinion.
Evets,
Good point.
Steve,
I couldn’t disagree more, but I guess that’s where we’ll have to leave it.
i’m just speaking from memory but it seems that livan often gives up several runs in the first few innings, then stays in the game and is relatively effective.
in other words, if he was yanked while he was getting shelled his e.r.a. might be in double figures.
which is not to say that i think he has been useless to this point. for whatever reason, the twins do win more often than they lose when he starts. but the team is playing with fire and the numbers are likely to even out if he continues.
Livan discussion is the same over and over. but sane made a great observation recently.
Livan was signed to eat innings. so unless he’s completed shelled (instead of say slight bleeding), he’s expected to go a good distance and eat those innings wether he’s given up 1 run or 6 runs. For that expectation, he’s done a great job.
If Slowey or almost any other starter were expected to do the same thing, they would easily put an ERA over 5 … maybe closer to six. just for comparison sake we did that on another board recently and Slowey has been pulled in innngs 2 through 5 way more than Livan, even though Livan has pitched more games than Slowey.
So enough with THIS ABSOLUTE HATE for Livan. he’s not Santana, Becket, Webb, Haliday, etc. but we cant dismiss what he’s doing for the rest of the rotation.
I posted Terry Felton’s 0-16 career numbers with the Twins last week and statistically he was better than Livan.
But anywho, If indeed the MAIN reason in bringing Livan to the Twins was to provide innings regardless of how those innings end up, then yes this discussion is pointless. I would like to think the Twins signed him for competent innings. But maybe you’re right danimal, maybe they just want to protect the bullpen regardless of the outcome.
I don’t necessarily agree with it, but for all you haters out there, Livan is not going anywhere and he will continue to start even if they bring up Lariano. You may as well starting getting used to it. I think they will try to move Boof at the deadline to get something (even if its only a low prospect) for him and then will move Blackburn to the bullpen to make room for Lariano.
Thank God Boston’s on Espn tonight so a lot of people nationally can see them. They’re a club that’s gone a little bit under the radar that I think people will be talking about come September.
Lariano should come up and pitch out of the bullpen.
Atleast until someone in the rotation goes down. Thats where he started last year.
He can get us to Nathan.
Minnesota has a log jam of players who are not pulling their weight. The young pitchers need more stability in the infield to help their pitching. The twins need a midline-up right handed batter who has batting sense. The twins should be talking to Baltimore.(Millar, Roberts, Huff, Mora). Although he is not right handed Huff is a true DH and appears to be available. killerduck
I say no to Hawkins. If the the Twins need a setup man prior to Nathan, then bring up Bobby Korecky from AAA he can pitch to one or two batters and be better at it than Hawkins. and By the way no word on Liriano yet! (BS) you fool I want to know what flight number that he will be on so I can see for myself that he is here!….
Stats and their use to support an argument are funny.
Seems everyone are crying for the recall of a pitcher with a 11.32 ERA, go figure.
Regards,
Recall it was Rick Anderson who worked with Hawkins and changed his arm slot. Hawkins was nothing before Anderson got hold of him, then became a top 5 middle reliever. He still has the arm, let Anderson work with him again and see what happens I say.
Hawkins in, Livan out, Boof to the rotation?
Hawkins for Livan straight up. Do it.
Whoever left a pro-Hawkins comment apparently HASN’T BEEN PAYING ATTENTION TO HAWKINS’ CAREER. His issue is emotional — he blows up with any real pressure. The thought of him in a Twins uniform again gives me the willies.
If anyone here didn’t know what the Twins were going to get when they signed Livan, please stop crying for him to be cut. Livan eats innings and has a 5+ ERA. While we are all clamoring for Liriano to be brought up, if someone has to leave the rotation, it is wishful thinking to believe a rotation of relative rookies will be successful. Put one of the young starters in the pen and put the Franchise in the rotation. We have bigger problems than Livan Hernandez.
Please please please tell me this is a joke
[…] of his former teams, the Minnesota Twins, are interested in bringing him back. He pitched with the Twins from 1995 to 2003 and had been one of the team’s many […]
ERIC:
Latroy is a joke.
There I said it.
Hawkins was very capable in the 8th inning when he was here. With Neshek out, we don’t have that guy right now.
If Hawkins is hitting 95 on the gun he still has enough arm to get the job done. AS LONG AS WE DON’T PART WITH ANYTHING REAL VALUABLE, I wouldn’t mind giving him a shot.
Addressing the 8th inning doesn’t mean the other stuff can’t be done.
IMO, the continued attachment to Livan in the rotation doesn’t make baseball sense - a team looking to win the division really can’t afford a starter who gets them buried on the road no matter how well he does at home (you can’t juggle a rotation like that). He’s giving up a bazillion hits a game - - - sooner or later that bites you in the butt.
Liriano’s right where I wanted him to be when we brought him up - his velocity is up and he’s dominating hitters. He’s ready to get back up here.
Next, could we see if we can get Bob Wells and Pat Mahomes to come out of retirement while we’re at it?
[…] I’m sure you can guess my thoughts about the potential LaTroy Hawkins acquisition: aw hells nah. I agree he hasn’t been as bad as his 5.71 ERA shows (.729 OPS Against isn’t […]
Say it isn’t so — not the return of the one-pitch wonder (like we wonder why he is pitching in the majors when he only has one pitch, and inconsistent control of that), and the return of his obnoxious, ego-centric, moronic fan club in right field?!?!? Maybe they could all go to somewhere like…San Diego? Someplace far, far away
Just say NO to Latroy — getting rid of him was one of the best decisions that front office made!!!!
BRING LaTroy BACK!!! ASAP!!!
LaTroy is a power pitcher who flourished when Rick Anderson was his pitching coach. He started going downhill the minute he left.
He still throws hard, 95+, so he’d be a great fit. I’d way rather have him than Bass or Reyes.
Andy was LaTroy’s minor league pitching coach. There’s magic in that connection.
It’s hard to think of Hawkins as the answer to the problem, unless the problem is not enough suspense wondering how he will get out of an inning while running every batter to a three-ball count. When he was with the Twins before, they called him The Equalizer for a reason. Bring him in to protect a lead and pretty soon the game is tied . . . or worse. That said, he goes through some stretches where he’s hard to touch, it’s just hard to say when you’ll catch him in those stretches.
Hawkings would be a huge upgrade over Brian Bass.
Gatty, good point about Bass. But it’s not whether LaTroy would be better than Bass. You don’t bring Bass in in key situations much if you want to win. It’s whether you can bring him in where Crain or Matt G. come in, whether he can fill the hole left by Neshek. Considering you probably have to give something up to get Hawkins, the question is whether it’s worth it. I think he might have some uses, but the key stat on Hawkins is 75 career saves and 103 holds, but 46 blown saves. Not terrible, but doesn’t give you a lot of confidence either. You certainly wouldn’t expect him to be what Rincon was a few years back (I know, hard to remember back that far).
Nooooooooooooo! Our bullpen problems are solvable in house. Bring up Liriano, he goes in the pen or Blackburn does. Case closed. We don’t need anymore washed up never were’s, especially one that we all ready got rid of a long time back for obvious reasons.
Question: Do the Twins have a relief prospect in AA or AAA that throws in the mid-90’s? If not, then they might as well bring back Hawkins. He was an excellent setup man before; he can be one again.
So, what’s the inside skinny on the Hawk? Who was his pitching coach while with the Twins? Why didn’t he fit with the Hankie-Yankees? What’s his FB top off at?
Crain has an excellent FB. But not much more the last 4 weeks. Does LaTroy have anything additional to that?
Trade /boof,everett,lambchops,punto,reyes,Livian, to the Yankees for PayRod-powerhitting 3rd baseman for the twins- new lineup 1.span 2.mauer 3.mourneau 4. A-Rod 5.Deli young and so forth-yeah, do it twins , go for it!!!!! yes , get troy (quick twist your neck to the left field bleachers)Hawkins ,yeah, go for it!!!!!!!!
Barker, I think a LOT of Hawkins blown saves came after he left Minnesota. I remember Minnesota tried him as closer, and moved him to set-up man when he couldn’t do it.
He excelled as a set-up man, then left for a new contract with the Cubs. Despite his track record with the Twins, they made him into a closer and history repeated itself.
I recall an article written by some moron at FoxSports about how the Cubs were so smart for finally realizing that Hawkins was a perfect fit for set-up man.
I just shook my head and thought “Well, that would make sense…since he did that for the Twins for at least a couple of years.
romer: I’m pretty sure Hawkins’ coach while here was Anderson. Hawkins was around in 2002 and I think 2003. I’m pretty sure Anderson was pitching coach before Gardy took over though.
Juanny hasn’t given up a hit in his last two outings. Should have stuck with Juanny.
1) Reyes is doing his job - lefties hitting .211, which is who he was brought in to get out. We just cannot let him face righties
2) Didn’t LaTroy turn his career around once Rick Anderson came in and worked with him??
3) Blackburn should not be demoted to the bullpen … He should be 13 - 6 (he left 6 games with the lead, where the bullpen blew it)
Seems everyone are crying for the recall of a pitcher with a 11.32 ERA, go figure.
So minor league performance means nothing? That is ridiculous.
LaTroy is not an upgrade from the average, hold-your-breath set-up guys we have now.
It’s time for us to look at this roster as if we were getting ready for the playoffs and get the best 25 in place.
That means that Lariano needs to become the 8th inning strike out threat that we so desperately need. The Yankees used Joba Chamberlain in this role last year and successfully have transitioned him to a starter this year–we can, too.
And a trade for Beltre would be a nice upgrade to the line-up. I think a Buscher (3rd baseman to replace Beltre with good potential) Bonser (needs to be a starter and he does have stuff–just needs to find control and the Seattle ballpark would help him keep it in the park) and Manship (solid prospect) would get the job done.
Lineup:
Span
Casilla
Mauer
Morneau
Beltre
Cuddy
Kubel
Young
Punto
Looks appealing to me.
Pat Mahomes is not retired. He is pitching in Sioux Falls.
Guess Mahomes, like Hawkins, is more comfortable pitching in a smaller market…
After all what I read, I would say no to that trade. The Twins always get a cheap veteran, very seldom works, and then end up winning with talent from within. Point is case, our starting rotation (yes, excluding Livan), which is pretty good. So why we don’t eliminate one step and promote Korecky and other guys from AAA. In my opinion the Twins have to unload dead weight rather than get more. Get rid of Lamb, Everett, Boof or Bass, and promote Korecki, Macri (and there is another reliever, Mariano Gomez that has an ERA under 2 down there. Anybody knows anything about him?)
You can argue that Livan has been good at home, but guess what, we have the majority of the games on the road for the rest of the season.
Korecky is not the answer (he has average stuff - basically another Bass). I’d like to see Ricky Barrett get a shot he’s got 66 K’s in 56 innings in relief.
i am all for it… maybe we could get rid of lamb and/or livan… then call up lariano…
Good discussion on Span and Liriano and the huge Sox series:
http://media.myfoxtwincities.com/livestream/webcast/archive.htm
I’m usually all for recycling. But in this case it is a bad idea. He brings nothing to the bullpen other than he would have the straightest fastball of any of our relievers.
I don’t get why almost everyone on this site wants to dump Reyes…yeah he’s not as dominant as 06, but he’s still been a solid LEFT-HANDED reliever…..but I agree that we really need help in the pen and we do need to get rid of Boof & Bass, but not for flipping LaTroy Hawkins….geeze come on
