A week later, a cooler head
Posted on August 7th, 2008 – 12:00 PMBy Joe Christensen
When the White Sox traded for Ken Griffey Jr., one week ago today, I made the snap judgment that Chicago had just made itself better. I also said Detroit had made itself better with the Kyle Farnsworth-for-Pudge trade, suggesting those moves ramped up the pressure on the Twins to swing a deadline deal.
Well, that Farnsworth opinion looks just plain silly now. The Tigers haven’t won a game since July 30. Farnsworth has a 10.80 ERA and two blown saves in three appearances (with three home runs allowed in 3 1/3 innings). Detroit’s bullpen couldn’t be a bigger mess.
I do think the White Sox improved with the Griffey deal. If nothing else, it let them take a load off the slumping Paul Konerko. The Sox are 3-3 since Ken Williams sat in the dugout at the Metrodome saying, “It’s never a bad thing to be in a pennant race and have help walk through the door. It’s not going to hurt when guys know there’s another weapon that they can use.”
But it’s notable that Griffey did not play Wednesday with the Sox facing Justin Verlander. Griffey is 4-for-13 with two RBI and a .308/.357/.308 batting line since the trade.
I still think the Twins should have swung a deal for LaTroy Hawkins, who has three scoreless appearances and one save since joining the Astros. The Diamondbacks also seemed ahead of the curve when they acquired RHP Jon Rauch from the Nationals, as he’s posted a 2.84 ERA (with seven strikeouts and one walk) in seven appearances.
Arizona is 10-5 since that trade, and the bullpen has settled in nicely. But the price for Rauch was Emilio Bonifacio, who could be the second baseman of the future for Washington.
Now that the deadline dust has settled, I believe the Twins missed a chance to upgrade their bullpen, but time is putting proper perspective on the moves made around them in the division. The Twins didn’t upgrade, but at least they didn’t make themselves worse.
255 Responses to "A week later, a cooler head"
I agree - we really needed a reliever with Neshek out, and this horrid series vs. Seattle exposed us.
I’m not sure if the Twins have anything up their sleeves, but right now, we’re in trouble if the starters can’t go seven innings.
Bobby Korecky.
Does anybody remember the exact path Neshek took to get to the Twins? If I remember correctly, he didn’t spend much time in Rochester and actually ran through the system rather quickly the year he made it up.
The reason I ask… has there been any thought of bringing up Robert Delaney from the Cats (AA) to help the bullpen? His numbers are very good:
55.2 IP, 1.46 ERA, 64/7 SO/BB, .85 WHIP, .205 Avg
Granted that is between the Miracle (A) and the Cats (AA), about half the time with each… but didn’t we do something similar with Neshek?
I agree on Rauch, but not Hawkins.
But no on Bobby Korecky and his nine blown saves in AAA. IMO, there are four better pitchers in AAA than Korecky for the hole that has not been filled since Neshek went down: Humber, Barrett, Gomez and Mulvey. I’d like the Twins to send Bass out and call up Humber. I’m pretty sure Bass would clear waivers so they can assign him. And Humber’s been on a roll his last eight appearances.
Barrett from Rochester?
Somebody on Howard’s blog said Schoeneweis/Sanchez for the Mets cleared waivers. I’d be happy with that.
mlb trade rumor, cleared waivers:
“Duaner Sanchez - His velocity is down 3.6 mph from ‘06. Sanchez is under team control through ‘09.
Scott Schoeneweis - His strikeout rate is down, but so is his ERA. Apparently no team wanted to risk taking on his contract - $3.6MM this year, $3.6MM in ‘09.”
Let’s just have Neshek come back and pitch left handed, he’d still be better than Bass
Send Gomez down put Cuddy back at RF Span in CF and keep DY in LF
Another player who could potentially help the Twins’ bullpen goes away: The Rays acquired Chad Bradford from the Orioles for a player to be named later… I guess it was an expensive price for the Twins to pay.
You might be right Joe i was down on the Hawkins signing but after this series i’m having second thoughts.
I don’t think we need to send Gomez down; but we do need to keep the pressure off him and bat him 9th and not play him everyday. The way Span is swinging now; he is an everyday player. I think Cuddy, Span, Young, Gomez can share outfield duties. This time in the season it is not bad to have 4 outfielders. Keep Kubel at DH and out of the field.
How bout the Twins use Gomez as a situational pinch Runner and not as a hitter till he looks better. On a side note the Twins got a big fat nothing for big fat Livan. I wonder what his ERA will baloon up to in Colorado
thrylos98 says:
August 7th, 2008 at 1:33 pm
Another player who could potentially help the Twins’ bullpen goes away: The Rays acquired Chad Bradford from the Orioles for a player to be named later… I guess it was an expensive price for the Twins to pay.
Now, now. Don’t you know there is nothing the FO could do because nobody would trade with them? What are they supposed to do, make a BAD trade?
the twins got plenty from the rockies, $1.6 million of salary they don’t have to pay.
“acquired Chad Bradford from the Orioles for a player to be named later… I guess it was an expensive price for the Twins to pay.”
How do you know the expense of “the player to be named later”?
Morneau, Mauer or Dufus Mc Worthless?
Why don’t the Twins try and get LH MR John Grabow from Pittsburgh
thrylos -
Bradford is also making the remainder of $3.5 million this year, and another $3.5 next year.
Why didn’t the Twins go after Bradford?? When Tampa is more aggressive at improving the team, you know your FO is pathetic….
———————————
From Yahoo…
The Tampa Bay Rays on Thursday acquired relief pitcher Chad Bradford from the Baltimore Orioles for a player to be named.
Bradford, 33, was 3-3 with a 2.45 ERA in 47 relief appearances for Baltimore this season. The righthander has appeared in 68 or more games in five of the past six seasons and finished third among American League relievers with 78 appearances for the Orioles last year.
Bradford signed a three-year contract with Baltimore as a free agent following the 2006 campaign. He tossed scoreless inning on Wednesday in his final appearance for the Orioles.
What happened to Danny Graves? I thought he would be a nice addition to the bullpen if they needed him
“the twins got plenty from the rockies, $1.6 million of salary they don’t have to pay.”
Almost the same amount as the signing bonus for Aaron Hicks!
Lets see, Aaron Hicks for Livan….hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
Sounds like our best trade this year!
don’t forget tampa has a lot more talent in the minors, at little more to offer.
hard to make any trades when your farm system doesn’t have much talent.
“Why didn’t the Twins go after Bradford??”
Why didn’t any other team in the AL go after Bradford? The Yankees and Tigers also have bullpen problems, and they obviously didn’t make a claim on Bradford either. In fact, we know that every other team in the AL outside of the Angels passed on him. Perhaps they know something we don’t?
cmathewson the Twins never got Rauch or Hawkins.(wishful thinking) now you mention four other guys now at AAA that could be brought up and I agree. But just what are theirs jobs once they got here. A starter, long relief, or just a better replacement for Brian Bass. Its your opinion that Bobby Korecky would not work here because of blown saves. well,what he he came here just to pitch to one or two guys like Reyes does. Believe me, Korecky, would be a big step up from some of the guys that are in our pen now!
On the surface, Bradford looks to be a nice addition, but we don’t know the details surrounding the transaction, do we? But that ain’t gonna stop some of you from skipping off on a fact-free rant-a-thon.
“a fact-free rant-a-thon.”
But..but…but…THATS what we do!!!
Oops. Meant to log on at I’mOKyou’reOK.com
i thought this was a faith based blog.
Well, we don’t know ALL the details of any trade…so I guess we should never comment on any trade?? I don’t get it…but I would take Bradford’s numbers over most of the Twins right-handed bullpen…but if you would rather entrust a 1-run 8th innning lead to Guerrier, Crain, Boof, or Bass–you go right ahead…I don’t see how this is fact-free–look at the numbers…
Why
So with payroll down roughly $15M this year, Bradford is too expensive for the Twins, a team in the hunt for the postseason that’s giving significant innings to Brian Bass?
Bradford’s ERA+’s, going back from 2008: 176, 138, 150, 118, 103, 146, 139, 161.
His WHIP’s going back for the past four years: 1.19, 1.44, 1.16, 1.41
For reference, Bass’s ERA+ this year is 81, and his WHIP is 1.55.
I think, for about over $4.5M this year and next, it might have been worth it to put in a claim on Chad Bradford.
Good to know our front office, while “trying” to help the team, is still “frustrated” in their efforts.
Meanwhile, let’s just run Guerrier out there 3 of every 5 games and hope and pray he makes it through the season, and we aren’t looking at Brian Bass being in even MORE one run games.
if we can’t spew mindless uninformed speculation, incessant bitching and complaining what fun would this be?
Sorry…I forgot that everybody else in here fills their opinions with 100% fact…purely objective…I must be on the wrong sports blog…
Speaking of facts, Mr. Christensen, it feels like we are often in the dark about the thought process taking place in the Twins FO. Is that because they are so close to the vest, or is it possible that you guys are a little shy about asking the tough questions? Just asking….
Why didn’t the Twins go after Bradford??
It’s amazing to see all of these players the Twins should have so obviously gone after becoming so obvious only after somebody else has gone after them.
Is that like how you suddenly realize just how hot that girl at the bar is only after your buddy hooks up with her?
When Tampa is more aggressive at improving the team, you know your FO is pathetic.
The Tampa Bay Rays have to hold off both Boston and New York, both of which made off like bandits at the deadline. The Twins have to face off against Chiacgo and Detroit, both of which made what would be considered LATERALL moves at best.
T- it was just a joke…though I’m sure you’ve taken shots at the FO before
“On the surface, Bradford looks to be a nice addition, but we don’t know the details surrounding the transaction, do we?”
But we do know.
He was placed on waivers. Teams are offered the opportunity to put in waiver claims based on the standings, same league first, then the other league.
So we know the Twins didn’t put in a claim, and after the Twins passed, Tampa did put in a claim.
They then had the opportunity to work out a deal, or Baltimore had the opportunity to pull Bradford back off waivers.
Tampa reached a deal for a PTBNL, which has to be determined within six months. Such deals are usually set up so as to allow the team getting the PTBNL to pick from a list of minor leaguers agreed upon ahead of time, or multiple lists depending on how the player claimed on waivers does.
So we know for an absolute fact that the Twins passed on Bradford, when they could have put in a claim and tried to work out at deal. The absolute WORST that could have happened is Baltimore lets Bradford go to the Twins for nothing, and the Twins are stuck paying Bradford’s remaining contract.
But please, continue to pretend it’s ok, because we don’t know what happened.
You’re right, markinmn. I’m OK, you’re not.
Lighten up, son. Facts are facts. You just don’t know all of them, but it’s OK.
You dropped your sippy cup.
Hey, just funnin’ ya.
“It’s amazing to see all of these players the Twins should have so obviously gone after becoming so obvious only after somebody else has gone after them.”
And it’s amazing people still buy the “well, they tried but they just couldn’t do anything” line, even after watching other teams do just that.
Unless you had access to the MLB waiver wire, none of us could know, until now, that Bradford was placed on waivers.
However, the Twins knew that.
birdofprey–how did you know I dropped my sippy cup?? That apple juice is sure good…
Yes, facts are facts…and the Twins bullpen needs help–FAST…that is a fact…
So Chief, we know the Twins didn’t put in a claim. Why didn’t they? As you said, you do know the details surrounding the transaction. Please share them with the class.
I’ll probably agree whole-heartedly with you if the fact is the Twins did not claim him because the dog ate their claim form. And I am skeptical often about reasons given. But maybe, just maybe, there’a a legitamatre reason.
What do you think, Mr. Christensen?
What happened to Danny Graves?
He never got his fastball back. When he stopped tricking the AAA hitters, he started to stink like an open grave.
cmathewson the Twins never got Rauch or Hawkins.(wishful thinking)
That was Joe’s point, not mine. I thought the Twins missed an opportunity by not acquiring Rauch. I didn’t think they missed an opportunity when they failed to acquire Hawkins.
A million years ago when Kent Tekulve was available why didn’t the Twins get him. Why aren’t we mad that Kent Tekulve was never made a member of our Twins. For gosh sake
What ever happened to Steve Avery?
But why did ALL (EVERY ONE!!) of the other AL teams pass on Bradford?
Were their GM’s all neutered at the same time as Bill Smith?
THAT is what is not known to US!!!!
Or Dick Radatz?
This is for everyone…what potentially availbale relief pitchers would you like to see the Twins go after? Who makes sense in your opinion??
I’ve heard Grabow from Pitt…Graves…who else?
Rhodes from Seattle
Question: do teams ever try to iron out the details before putting in a claim? If you are the team with the right of first refusal, do you have time to call and negotiate your PTBNL list and pull back your claim if an agreement can’t be reached?
I know nobody cares but i was checking the Mets game boxscore and i can’t figure out how Johan pitched 7 innings but didn’t get the win and where did the second earned run come from.
bop: I think when it comes to trading and aquiring new players…teams would prefer to keep discussions close
And it’s amazing people still buy the “well, they tried but they just couldn’t do anything” line, even after watching other teams do just that.
Different teams see different players as a fit.
Heck, the Indians picked up Jason Tyner and Juan Rincon after the Twins were done with those two.
So I suppose the Twins were stupid for letting either go. After all, they “were available” and Twins didn’t make it happen.
Besides, with the mentality around here…any player claimed off waivers would be greeted with the same “awe” that we heard when the Twins signed Livan, Everett, and Lamb.
LaTroy Hawkins was a perfect example. JoeC mentions him, this place flips out at the thought of bringing in what was viewed as a “washed up player”.
There were even comments that the Tigers would do the Twins a favor by taking him off the market.
Then the Astros pick him up, and now it’s like “Oh the Twins let him slip by!”
Seriously, Detroit traded for Kyle Farnsworth. KYLE FARNSWORTH! I don’t think you’d have been able to sneak a word in edgewise had the Twins made that move. Bill Smith would’ve like had to fight his way out of the Dome with a pitchfork after that move.
The Twins had targets in mind in Atkins, Kouz, Roberts, Grudzy, and Beltre. When they couldn’t make those deals work they did what was best and didn’t settle.
People here seem to be unable to seperate “improve” from “trade”.
I say they should give one of the ‘kids’ a try… from within:
1) Robert Delaney (Cats)
2) Ricky Barrett (Red Wings)
Why not? This was suppose to be a building year. The roster is full of ‘kids,’ why not bring up another one and give him a shot?
BC- Johan gave up only 1 run in the first seven innings–but he started the 8th inning and put a runner on base–that runner is charged to Johan–he scored the 2nd run after Johan was out of the game. He never recorded an out in the 8th–so is only crdited with 7 innings.
He didn’t get the win because the Padres tied it in the 9th…so he no longer was able to get a decision. The Mets won with a walk-off HR in the bottom of the 9th.
BC: I think what happened is Johan came out in the 8th and got in trouble. He got pulled without getting an out, so it’s “7″ innings and x-batters in the 8th.
Since Johan left with the score 3-2, he was in track for the win. But then the Padres tied it in the ninth.
So it was 3-3 in the bottom of the inning, when the Mets won with a walk off (giving the win to Heilman who pitched the 9th)
Dang! Ninja’d by markinmn. 
T-
And I was sure a person would beat me to it….:)
BC - The Padres scored a run in the 9th to tie it at 3, and then the Mets scored 2 in the bottom of the 9th.
Like everyone else, I DON’T KNOW, but here’s a theory.
Bradford has progressive glaucoma, that the other teams know about and were afraid to take a chance.
The Rays know a good eye surgeon, so they decided to go for it!
While we did save $1.6M by giving Livan to Colorado, we will have to pay a majority of the bonuses that Livan will get.
Ok duh it just looked odd to me that explains it thanks guys.
Johan sucks, Livan has more wins
I want K-Rod as our setup man before Nathan
Are there potential major league-ready arms in the minors to help with the BP? AZTwins mentioned:
1) Robert Delaney (Cats)
2) Ricky Barrett (Red Wings)
JoeC- what do you hear from the Twins?
shawn i seriously think Johan is jinked he’s like the pigpen of baseball he probably couldn’t even win in Texas.
I might have to wear the old Twins Johan jersey from my retired jersey section to give the guy a little karma
Too bad the Red Sox didn’t get Santana. The Twins would have had Ellsbury in center instead of Gomez, a major upgrade, and John Lester in the rotation instead of Perkins, a major upgrade. Perkins would be the good lefty in the pen and long reliever we desperately need. Santana on the other hand would be leading the majors in wins with the Red Sox scoring so many runs for him.
Bob for the 10 to the millionth time Boston never offered Ellsbury AND Lester in the same deal!!!
Bob,
Except the Boston offers were Ellsbury OR Lester, not both.
do you think santana might be giving part of his salary back for not having more wins??
The way I heard it, the Red Sox wanted to give us Ellsbury, Lester, Ortiz, Coco, and Ukelele for Santana. But, we turned them down.
I think promoting Liraino was as good as a trade, plus picking up Cuddy by Monday will be adding another and depth in the OF.
Another reliever would be nice.
The future looks bright with the pitching rotation though. I haven’t seen that many good arms since the several years ago with the Atl. Braves with Smoltz, Glavine and others when they were young……..
I don’t blame the Twins for not trading one of them for a short term shot for this year…..
No no no no. It was Ervin Santana, Johan Santana, and the guitar guy Santana for Lester, Bucholz, Masterson, Lowrie, Ellsbury, Coco, Hugo Chavez, and a PTBNL.
I heard it was Lester OR Ellsbury. Not both.
Scott Eyre to the Phils
Lester, Ellsbury, Ted Williams frozen head, the green Monster, and Big Papi for Johan
ROFLMAO
Ted Williams frozen head!
Can Williams’ frozen head catch a pop-up in the OF?? If so, that is a defensive upgrade when compared to Kubel…
Gomez - .257 BA
Ellsbury - .266
not that big of a difference
“Can Williams’ frozen head catch a pop-up in the OF?? If so, that is a defensive upgrade when compared to Kubel…”
The real live Ted Williams wouldn’t bother with a “pop-up in the OF”.
He was working on his swing!
But it was worth the sacrifice!
I heard it was Ellsbury, Jim Rice, Yaz, Pedroia, Pig Pappi, Lester, Masterson and the rights to No, No, Nannette for Santana
Gomez-.257 BA
Ellsbury-.266
Frozen head??
How does the frozen head compare: OPS? RISP? From 7th innning on?
“The real live Ted Williams wouldn’t bother with a “pop-up in the OF”.
He was working on his swing!”
That’s why Jimmy Piersall went nuts!
Has anyone thought of the possibility that the Rays might have been trying to keep Bradford away from the Angels?
yes Beisbol,
but given his numbers, how come no one else wanted in?
thaw that head out and sew it onto gomez’s shoulders, and the splinter can whisper into carlos’ ear when a breaking ball is in the dirt, or a fastball is too high to swing at.
Or maybe gomez would just sniff the head, and ignore the advice.
Getting Liriano back is better then any move White Sox made.
“Rhodes from Seattle”
Seven days too late, Jimmy. Rhodes was traded to Florida July 31st, for Gaby Hernandez, a 2004 3rd rnd draft pick who has some nice upside, but has battled injuries and was demonted from AAA to AA this year after going 2-8 with an ERA over 7 in 130 IP.
Try to keep up.
“People here seem to be unable to seperate “improve” from “trade”.”
So is it your opinion that Bradford isn’t a better option in the pen than Bass?
Because if he is better, then that would sort of fall directly under the definition of “improve,” would it not?
Come on we all know the only thing that held up the Red Sox trade was they wanted LaPanta’s rug jimmybee had the inside scoop on that one.
But we do know.
Maybe the rest of us do, but Chief apparently doesn’t. This time of year the reason for a player to be named later is often because even if the player is agreed on, they have to get that player through waivers. Since that often isn’t possible, they wait to name the player until after the season. In other words, we don’t really know what Bradford cost Tampa.
The other thing the Twins might have noticed is that Bradford has pitched two days in a row only twice since May. And that he has only about a half dozen appearances all year where he pitched more than an inning. He has three appearances all year where he threw as many as 20 pitches. He may be getting paid as much per pitch as Santana.
So he certainly wasn’t going to replace Bass, someone else was going to have to pick up some of those innings.
So while I, unlike Chief, don’t know what the Twins were thinking. There seems to be a few reasons they might not want to give up Bass for a highly paid part time pitcher whose going to add more pressure to everyone else in the bullpen.
Ted Williams death mask face
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/05/arts/design/05ted.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
LaPanta’s rug has a secret compartment in it so he can Store his Nuts
Has anyone thought of the possibility that Bradford was the victim of an all-AL anti-”Money Ball” backlash?
Maybe the AL teams felt that he received too much notoriety in that blasphemeous book.
I wish they would ship the head to museums for travelling displays
jimmy bee, as much as i like talking about head, that is creepy.
jimmy i heard the head hangs out with Wade Boggs and he scores tons of chicks for him.
“..add more pressure to everyone else in the bullpen.”?
Please.
You mean like when Brian Bass is brought in to protect a one run lead Monday night in Seattle, faces two batters, gets neither of them out, and forces Gardenhire to use TWO MORE relievers just to get out of the inning?
You mean THAT kind of pressure, TT?
On certain days I fealt that Mike Greenwelll and Wade Boggs were one in the same
how would you like to be a rockie fan and the big move is to bring in livan to help out in the race?
Joe’s quote that i missed whan i foisted the frozen head on the masses… “A week later a cooler head”
that made me smile at work, hehehe
lets bring up a bullpen guy from the minors
“This time of year the reason for a player to be named later is often because even if the player is agreed on, they have to get that player through waivers”
Incorrect.
There are only two rules regarding PTBNL’s: 1) the deal must close within 6 months, and 2) the PTBNL must change leagues, so it can’t be someone off the 25 man roster.
“how would you like to be a rockie fan and the big move is to bring in livan to help out in the race?”
Or an A’s fan they were like 5 games over .500 prior to trading away there future.
TT-
If you are correct that Bradford gets paid as much as Santana per pitch–that would mean there are a lot of pitchers who fall into that category…including Joe Nathan…that stat ($ per pitch) should not be a determining factor about whether or not the twins trade for a pitcher…If it is, I guess we should just have a BP full of Boofs–much cheaper per pitch.
By the way, my complaint is not that Bass is on the roster (though–that could be debated as well), but that he has been used several times this season in late game scenarios where the Twins had a 1-run lead or were tied. If you want Bass to pitch with a 4-run lead or deficit–go right ahead…every team has those couple mediocre guys who fill those innings…
Or an A’s fan they were like 5 games over .500 prior to trading away there future.
Never buy an A’s jersey. The player may only be there for 2 months then traded away.
But since Bradford is gone now an…and the frozen head cannot pitch (or can it?)…
Who else could/ should the Twins target?? Thankfully, not Scott Eyre…
jimmy bee,
just buy an A’s jersey with the name “Beane” on it… he wants to be the star…. and is of that team.
don’t the Padres have a couple good releivers?
There have been times when I would rather see the frozen head in the batter’s box instead of Gomez…when you just know he’s going to be sitting on the bench after 3 pitches.
Good day to all!
In my very humble and uninformed opinion , I cant see the Twins will make any moves to add relievers off the wire. They will go the AAA route instead, and hope for the best. Maybe there’s a ‘06 Neshek ready to emerge! Maybe Guerrier recovers and suddenly turns it around, or Crain starts striking out batters consistently. But given how things have not happened to date, why believe the Twins intend on making any waiver trades. They show no inclination to do so. I think we sink or swim with the guys on the roster, and any help they may call up from AAA, or AA……
“…why believe the Twins intend on making any waiver trades. They show no inclination to do so.”
Agreed. The question is why?
“But given how things have not happened to date, why believe the Twins intend on making any waiver trades. They show no inclination to do so.”
Craig Breslow
Why pick up some other teams cast off, when the Twins could do just as well with what they have in the system? If this season has accomplished anything, it has shown the FO that its system is working a heck of a lot better than looking outside the system. Young pitchers succeeding (the entire rotation!). Call-ups succeeding (Casilla, Span). Why take someone else’s crap? When they fail, the “washed up vet” drum will get beat to death. Who needs that.
“…why believe the Twins intend on making any waiver trades. They show no inclination to do so.”
“Agreed. The question is why?”
Yes, Joe and LaVelle and friends. Why? Fans really believe the Twins show no inclination, are risk-averse, are cheap, etc. Is that the story? Is there more to it?
Wikipedia, from which Chief got his description, is not reliable in this case. Just try to figure out how the PTBL in the Baltimore-Tampa deal will “change leagues”. The rule is actually that he can’t have played in the league he is being traded to.
That means minor leaguers and players on the DL are usually the only players eligible if the two teams are in the same league like Tampa and Baltimore. But those players also have to clear waivers to be traded right now if they are on the roster.
“that would mean there are a lot of pitchers who fall into that category…including Joe Nathan”
If Bradford were Joe Nathan that probably wouldn’t matter. But he isn’t.
By the way, my complaint is not that Bass is on the roster
Well, someone has to go if Bradford is added. It could be Bonser or someone other than Bass. My point was that Bradford is unlikely to pick up the innings of whoever that is. So someone else in he bullpen will have to get those outs. That probably means throwing more pitches or appearing more often. Both of which usually result in poorer performances.
Its not clear to me that a guy that pitches one inning or less every two or three days is going to improve the overall performance of the bullpen. Especially since he doesn’t get left handed batters out, which is probably why he has a lot of short outings.
Twins risk averse? How could any team in a pennant race with a starting rotation as green as it is be called risk averse? Running that youth out there every night without reservation is way more ballsy than most GM’s in MLB could ever be.
“Why pick up some other teams cast off”
Not everyone placed on waivers is a cast-off.
I heard that 60% of MLB roster players are put on waivers (and usually recalled if claimed) after July 31, often just to see who is interested.
If someone that the Twins want is put on waivers, a phone exchange can lead to questions about an available Twin and that can lead to something - or nothing.
Good point, TT. My premise is that the Twins are actually two good pitchers short in the bullpen if the objective is being competitive in the post-season. One average or below-average pitcher doesn’t solve the bullpen problem. Especially because other areas are problematic too. Maybe this explains the unwillingness to give away talent right now. Just a thought.
Slim chance, but… Neshek started rehab in Florida earlier this week. The official word is that he will be reevaluated before the end of the month. He could be down there until the end of the season or he could return in September if his rehab exceeds expectations. No progress reports yet.
Of course most MLB guys are put on waivers. But mostly crud or the heinously overpaid actually clear waivers. Not even Livan Hernandez cleared waivers. Amazing.
“Running that youth out there every night without reservation is way more ballsy than most GM’s in MLB could ever be.”
That would be true, JT, if the FO viewed the stakes to be a pennant, but I believe they expected to be a .500+ ballclub at best this season.
The real guts is in taking the longer view, holding onto talent that’s not quite ready, and incurring the wrath in the short term.
That would be even MORE true, JT.
“that would mean there are a lot of pitchers who fall into that category…including Joe Nathan”
“If Bradford were Joe Nathan that probably wouldn’t matter. But he isn’t.”
True…no one would say he is the same as Nathan…but my point was the $ per pitch approach–I never actually compared the merits of Nathan and Bradford…many quality relief guys are going to cost some money…you are going to have a very sad bullpen if you use that criteria…but you would rather have guys with 5+ eras in the 8th inning b/c they are cheaper? They can throw 30 pitches instead of 20?? Yeah, that makes sense…
And yes, a player would have to go if you add a BP pitcher…so what?? Boof?? Bass?? Tampa had to make room–they seemed to have somehow survived…teams shift their pitching rosters all the time…At one time Rincon was the mop-up guy this year–he was waived…the Twins managed to survive losing that filler…
Again, if you want Bass pitching in the 8th inning in a close game (as has been the case many times this year), than you feel free to make that argument…but I might suggest not sharing it with anyone…
We can all rest easy–Brian Bass is available to blow leads on consecutive days…time to reserve those playoff tickets…
Running that youth out there every night without reservation is way more ballsy than most GM’s in MLB could ever be.
Twins’ rotation (now) with ages indicated:
Blackburn 26
Baker 26
Perkins 25
Slowey 24
Liriano 24
Rays’ rotation since the beginning of the year:
Shields 26
Sonnastine 25
Jackson 24
Garza 24
Kazmir 24
Rays team ERA+: 112
Twins team ERA+: 93
The best thing for the Twins lineup would be to shift Cuddy back to 3B where he originally played to keep the OF in place.
For the record, TT, I got that PTBNL description off the top of my head, but since you Wiki’d it, why don’t you tell us how it’s wrong?
BTW, I’m still waiting for an answer on how Bass relieved the ‘pressure’ on the bullpen the other night in Seattle.
Speaking of Bass…
the Twins had a choice in the beginning of the season. Bass or R.A. Dickey. Does anyone believe that they made the correct choice?
Those are two nice-looking young starting rotations.
And while I’m on a roll, I just thought I’d point out a typical debating technique of TT:
He brings up “Dollars per Pitch” to make a point, then when it’s pointed out how ridiculous that is, he pretends the other poster brought it up.
Nice.
thrylos98-
good posting on the rotations…hard to believe Kazmir is tied for the youngest…
Out of Slowey, Baker, and Blackburn–which has the biggest upside??
btw, to the posters who keep emphasizing that Neshek was a irreplaceable loss, his 2008 stats compared to Brian Bass were:
Neshek 0-1 4.73
Bass 3-4 5.01
It’s not like losing Joba.
who’s this Joba? wasn’t that a giant slug in the original Star Wars trilogy?
biggest upside:
IMHO
Slowey
Baker
Blackburn
many quality relief guys are going to cost some money…you are going to have a very sad bullpen if you use that criteria
I wasn’t suggesting that was the only criteria. My point was more about how little work you actually get out of Bradford for the money. Those averages don’t really tell his story.
But its an interesting question. If Santana throws 3500 (35 games/ 100 pitches per game) pitches this year he will get paid about $5400 per pitch. That would be about 650 pitches by Bradford for 3.5 million or about 43 innings at 15 per inning. So its likely he won’t make as much. Nathan, on the other hand, is clearly paid more per pitch than Santana. He would have to pitch 139 innings (at 15 pitchers per inning) to get down to $5400 per pitch.
Here is the wikipedia version:
“There are two rules to a PTBNL transaction. The deal must close within a six-month time frame following the conclusion of the rest of the trade, and the player must change leagues.”
Here is Chief’s version:
“There are only two rules regarding PTBNL’s: 1) the deal must close within 6 months, and 2) the PTBNL must change leagues, so it can’t be someone off the 25 man roster.”
Both are wrong - there is no requirement that a player “must change leagues”.
My only point was that at this time of year the PTBNL is used to manage the waiver process even where the player has already been determined. Its even possible that the PTBNL will be announced in the next couple days if they clear waivers.
I see the Rays just acquired Chad Bradford from the Os. Bradford is a good reliever. Why the Twins could not have traded for him, or Hawkins before him, or another good decent reliever by now is a mystery. Smilin’ Carl must not want to open the wallet. The bullpen, more than anything, will be the Twins’ downfall, and its a gaping hole that has been staring them in the face for over two months now. Yet not one thing has been done about it. Tantamount to throwing in the towel IMHO.
Again, if you want Bass pitching in the 8th inning in a close game (as has been the case many times this year), than you feel free to make that argument…but I might suggest not sharing it with anyone…
Bass is in there because Gardy decided that was his best option, given the other pitchers available. The reason Bass was his best option was partly because other, better, pitchers had already been worked. If you get rid of Bass and replace him with a guy who pitches even fewer innings, then those other guys, who weren’t available because they had been over-worked already, need to pitch even more innings.
As for Seattle the other night, Bass gave up two hits. The Twins pitchers gave up 11 runs. Blaming Bass for that is idiotic.
USAFChief, excellent post @ 2:29 pm. T would drown himself in the kool-aid before he ever acknowledged that the Pohlads care nothing about winning… just using our hard-earned tax $$’s to buy themselves jewelry stores.
Why argue about Bass? And what is there to argue about? He sucks, plain ad simple. As a mop-up guy he is okay, but for anything else, especially small leads late in the game, he is a tragedy waiting to happen, just like Crain and Guererre and Reyes and … everyone but Joe Nathan, but worse. Even if it means bringing up some raw fireballer from AA, do it! Try anything! This would all be a moot point if the Twins had had the foresight to retain the services of Grant Balfour through his injury issues. I was very confused when he was let go. It stands next to the Ortiz release. Be nice to have both of them now.
Anyone else notice how Bass looks like the brother in ‘Happily Ever After,’ that sitcom from several years ago that was a vehicle to get Nikki Cox on TV where her… ahem, attributes might be admired and earn money?
T says at 2:43:
“The Twins had targets in mind in Atkins, Kouz, Roberts, Grudzy, and Beltre. When they couldn’t make those deals work they did what was best and didn’t settle.”
So you were in the Twins war-room when all this allegedly occured? How the hell do you know that’s what happened? Does Bill Smith call you when considering these things? It just goes to prove how many idiots there are on these blogs that buy into company lines because they’re not capable of thinking for themselves.
Oh boy. So, Apologist, how the hell do you know that the Pohlad’s care nothing about winning? Does Jim Pohlad call you when considering these things? Perhaps you should practice a little humility, and be a little more charitable towards the rest of us. We may be thinking more than you really know, and drawing different conclusions than you. But that doesn’t make anyone an idiot, does it?
I hope Cuddyer took his infield glove to Rochester because alot of problems might get solved if he can at least play 3rd. on a spot-duty basis. Be brave .Work Cuddyer back into 3rd. and it could be the best thing since sliced bread.
“So, Apologist, how the hell do you know that the Pohlad’s care nothing about winning?”
Because if they did, they’d be winning. They’d actually hire outside the organization every now and then. They would have brought in numerous individuals to interview for their GM job rather than just handing it to the office assistant. They wouldn’t have tried to contract their own team for $$. Gardenhire would actually have to earn a new contract like every other manager in the league. They would actually insist on signing a free agent every now and again not named Tony Batista, Livan Hernandez. et al. And most importantly…
HE WOULDN’T BE THE RICHEST OWNER IN BASEBALL and have the luxury to bitch about being “small market!”
It’s a long forgone conclusion that the Pohlad family doesn’t give a rat’s ass about having a winning team as much as they care about how much money they have stuffed under their mattresses. Anyone who suggests otherwise must have also been on OJ’s jury.
“…how the hell do you know that the Pohlad’s care nothing about winning?”
I don’t know if they care nothing about winning, it just isn’t their #1 priority, probably not #2 either. I’ve spent about 10 years fairly close to the organization and know(am related to) someone in the organization. Spending much time in that situation you learn pretty quickly this is a business for teh Twins, period. A family entertainment business, period. As long as the seats are filled, and they have been, nothing else really matters.
Listening to the Yankee broadcast at TX, Susan Waldyn (sp?), of the Yankee broadcast team, stated that Hank Blalock of the Rangers will probably never play 3rd base again due to a right shoulder injury. Didn’t know if this was discussed previously or not but remembered that Blalock’s name was floated around here as a potential Twin prior to his injuryin July.
I’m surprised nobody bothers to bring this up, or maybe they did and I’ve missed it.
Remember last year, payroll about $70-75 mil and Pohlad kid comes out and says we have that team payroll because we spend 50ish% on payroll and we do that every year, blah, blah, blah. And MLB team profits skyrocketed last year because of the MLB.com revenue sharing, not to mention the Twins had record attendance last year. So, what is the team salary this year?
Sure, they covered the stadium cost overruns…hmm, I wonder how they paid for that.
Your right G. The dramatic drop in salary has nothing to do with the fact that 90% of this roster is in the early stages of their career or anything…
You don’t have 100 million dollar payrolls in rebuildnig years.
I’ve spent about 10 years fairly close to the organization and know(am related to) someone in the organization.
Yeah. Okay. And I work for Microsoft, don’t bother buying Vista. There’s a new OS being annouced in a few weeks.
HE WOULDN’T BE THE RICHEST OWNER IN BASEBALL and have the luxury to bitch about being “small market!”
Market size has nothing to do with personal wealth. “Small market” is just that. The size of the MARKET.
But seriously, let’s not facts, logic, and reasoning stop the tired go to from being gone to again.
How the hell do you know that’s what happened?
Hmmm. I dunno. Maybe it’s because (unlike yourself) I actually pay attention to the sports reports both locally and nationally.
The fact that the Twins didn’t make a trade would be an indication they weren’t able to make something happen.
But don’t let that stop your rambling.
The Twins would have had Ellsbury in center instead of Gomez, a major upgrade, and John Lester in the rotation instead of Perkins, a major upgrade.
No. They wouldn’t.
For the last time: ELLSBURY AND LESTER WERE NEVER IN THE SAME DEAL.
It was only covered like everyday for three months.
“As long as the seats are filled, and they have been, nothing else really matters”
The MAIN reason that THAT is CRAP is because its human nature to care about winning.
The Beermen, the ushers, the parking lot attendants and the ballgirls ALL want their team to win (unless they had allegiances to other teams earlier in life).
The Pohlads and everyone in the FO want to win, worse than the slobbering maniacs in the seats and the bitching multitudes on the blogs.
Its their team. They catch hell when the Twins lose and are praised (deserving or not) when the Twins win.
Put yourself in their position and tell me that filling the seats is ALL that’s important.
If you are capable of doing that, you will know that winning is important to ownership and FO even if filling the seats is also important.
Whether they are good at winning is a separate discussion, but to claim they don’t care is assinine!
“Your right G.”
Of course I am.
“The dramatic drop in salary has nothing to do with the fact that 90% of this roster is in the early stages of their career or anything…”
Of course it does. It also doesn’t hurt when you trade one of your highest paid players. It also doesn’t hurt when you only bring in level D FA’s year after year. The Twins aren’t rebuilding, they’re retooling, get the talking points right.
“Yeah. Okay. And I work for Microsoft.”
Believe what you want T, I’m only speaking from my personal experience, you are entitled to your opinion.
You should probably expect the Pohlad Companies to keep your resume on file, Apologist. No openings for you at any of their many profitable endeavors, I’ll bet. The Pohlad family and their many many fine employees have created wealth, for themselves, and for many others. They also have done more in this community, than an angry ignorant soul like you will ever understand. What a little prick you are.
And by the way, the Twins HAVE won. Their “inside hires” have the admiration of the entire industry. They insist on fiscal discipline, which subjects them to pathetic drivel-bitch like what you have spewed. And no, I don’t work for them. I’m nobody’s apologist, Apologist. I just believe in fairness.
Sane,
I don’t disagree with much you just said in theory. Of course, everyone wants to win. The Pirates want to win.
What I originally said and is closer to my point than that statement you pulled was winning is not their #1 priority.
Winning also fills the seats.
“The Beermen, the ushers, the parking lot attendants and the ballgirls ALL want their team to win (unless they had allegiances to other teams earlier in life).The Pohlads and everyone in the FO want to win…”
If you really believe that it just reflects your naivete.
If the decision is losing and making money(or breaking even)
OR
winning, but losing money.
There is no debating the answer.
Please, oh please, let the Tigers hang on to at least one lead this week…4-1 and it may be shrinking…
And the old Craig told you guys over a year ago that 2008 team salary would probably be dropping considerably because of stadium cost overruns.
Craig is right a lot, in case he hasn’t reminded you lately.
G,
“If the decision is losing and making money(or breaking even)
OR
winning, but losing money.”
WHAT?
How does losing games make money?
Winning games (and championships) corelates strongly with with making money.
There may be exceptions in occasional large market losers or small market winners, but WINNERS MAKE MONEY!!!
Take that to the bank!
Didn’t Gardy have a get-religion meeting with Morneau two years ago? Didn’t Tori have a get-religion shoving match with Morneau three years ago?
Maybe my memory is faulty but Gardy and Andy need to sit down with Boof and lay it on the line . . . “we need you man!”
So here are a couple ideas:
Bonser either is the 7th/8th inning guy or Boof goes back as a starter.
If he goes back to starting then go to a six-man rotation. Everyone else is young and not used to pitching a full season in the bigs so they should be able to go about one-inning longer in the game which will save on the ‘pen.
Again, just a thought.
RoseBowl,
“If he goes back to starting then go to a six-man rotation. Everyone else is young and not used to pitching a full season in the bigs so they should be able to go about one-inning longer in the game which will save on the ‘pen.”
A six-man rotation means one reliever fewer on the staff. The remaining bullpen has to make up for the loss of an arm. I don’t think that helps.
It’s always nice to see T stop in 86 times during the course of the day to point out the errors of our ways on here.
“Maybe it’s because (unlike yourself) I actually pay attention to the sports reports both locally and nationally.”
And can your daddy beat up his daddy, T. Christ, shut up already!
“For the last time: ELLSBURY AND LESTER WERE NEVER IN THE SAME DEAL. It was only covered like everyday for three months.”
And yet in sixteen other blogs he was like, “Remember people, we don’t know who was offered to the Twins for Santana.”
Whatever best fits his argument at any given moment is what he goes with.
“Put yourself in their position and tell me that filling the seats is ALL that’s important.”
OK. Give mxe Pohlad’s bank account and I’ll gladly tell you that he doesn’t give a shit about winning.
A six man rotation is obscene.
The 5-man rotation has been for the last 20-some years after the latest expansions that left few able arms per team to start.
The traditional 4-man rotation (that a lot of teams are adopting for the post season) has probably been the more effective over the long run.
10 man pitching staff: 4 starters, 6 relievers (one mop up guy, 1 long man/spot starter, a right hand short guy, a left hand short guy, a set up guy and a closer) and 15 position players.
Not sure which will be the next team that will use a 4-man rotation (will probably be an NL team), but in this era makes more sense than ever…
here is a good link about 4-men rotation:
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2007-06-11-four-man-rotation_N.htm
Why not promote Daigle? He’s pitched very well at Rochester and couldn’t possibly be any worse than Bass or Bonser. I’m still holding out hope that Smith will pull off a waiver deal to bolster the pen, but that’s looking less likely every day.
Tigers 8-3 in the 9th and threatening for more at U. S. Cellular.
Brian,
“OK. Give mxe Pohlad’s bank account and I’ll gladly tell you that he doesn’t give a shit about winning.”
I’ll bet competing to win made him much of his fortune.
So, if his money was ever mine to give away, I’d rather give it to someone who cares about winning, and not to you who wants to tell me that he “doesn’t give a shit about winning.”
Parade time in Detroit…the Tigers actually held a lead…Leyland only smoked 2 packs during the game…time to celebrate….
1/2 game back….
Sometimes the best deal is no deal. This team is being ramped up for the next two years. Let’s enjoy this as a bonus year.
If you are telling me that rich people in general don’t care about winning, I guess Steinbrenner, Cuban, Wilf and many other rich owners (are there any other kind?) of pro sports teams, refute that.
I just think its human nature for everyone to care about winning. If for no other reason, to NOT be hated by thousands (millions?) of people.
The desire to win, the desire to be respected and the desire to be liked seem to be universal to me.
Birdofprey, wow! Who said members of the Pohlad empire aren’t on here.
Someone had it right in an earlier post. If winning is so important to the Pohlads how come they were trying to contract the team following their first winning season in how many years and were considered one of the up-and-coming teams in the league? And do you remember what Pohlad was going to walk away with if he had been successful in his attempts to flush his own team? Why it was 150 million, was it not? Furthermore, if you guys “follow the local papers” as much as you claim, you’d recall all the articles by Sid and Shooter where Pohlad flat-out stated that the team wasn’t worth his “family’s well-being.” What does that mean do you think? And you do remember how and why he ended the team’s long-standing relationship with WCCO, and how he kept the Twins off of television for the first two-months a few season’s ago. TV/radio revenue is at an all-time high, he still receives revenue-sharing, he has a new stadium, and team payroll is down for no other reason than he’s trying to compensate for his share of the stadium and the extra he had to spend on land costs…period. Anyone who thinks otherwise is only kidding themselves.
Hey fellas. The Twins are a 1/2 game out. That said, as a customer who had four season tickets six rows behind Mr. and Mrs. Pohlad, I can’t thank them enough for allowing MN to win two World Series. The difference between the Griffith years and the onset of the Pohlad era was night and day. Mr. Pohlad’s later mistake was, perhaps, listening to that cheap hustler, Bud Selig, about the option of folding the franchise. Otherwise, MLB may have by-passed many franchises due to the insane spending by NY, BOS and a few others. Is this organization perfect, hell no. Show me one which is. The Twins work as diligently as anyone to be competitive each year. I’ve come to realization, reluctantly, that many people in MN are just plain miserable. And that involves all segments of their existences. Quit whining and Grow up! Neither Pohlad nor anyone else owes you anything. If you don’t like the product, stay home and stop watching.
“I’ll bet competing to win made him much of his fortune.”
No, forclosing homes and cashing in other people’s T-bills during the Depression did.
Try knowing what the hell you’re talking about next time.
When will the Twins wise up and hit Cuddy 40 fungos a day at third and take their chances? I mean, how can a ss 1st round draft pick not be able to hold his own at third? Gardy needs to stop babying him and tell him to earn his stripes at 3rd. Regardless of how good his arm is, has anyone else noticed how many more balls landed out in right with Cuddy out there? I’m not saying that Span is a prototypical RF offensively, but he’s doing the job, and the way that the Twins are built, they need to rely on defense and the bottom line is that with Go Go and Span in the outfield together, hardly ANYTHING lands, which is the key point. Besides, Go Go has more than held his own at the plate despite his struggles. Let’s remember, the guy is a rookie and will have ups and downs. The fact remains that he can bunt for a hit whenever he wants and has enough pop to occasionally run into one. That’s more than any other Twin can say. The bottom line is that if the Twins will do anything, the guys counted on for run production (Morneau, Cuddy, Mauer, Kubel, and Young) need to do their job offensively, not Go Go.
When will the Twins wise up and hit Cuddy 40 fungos a day at third and take their chances? I mean, how can a ss 1st round draft pick not be able to hold his own at third? Gardy needs to stop babying him and tell him to earn his stripes at 3rd. Regardless of how good his arm is, has anyone else noticed how many more balls landed out in right with Cuddy out there? I’m not saying that Span is a prototypical RF offensively, but he’s doing the job, and the way that the Twins are built, they need to rely on defense and the bottom line is that with Go Go and Span in the outfield together, hardly ANYTHING lands, which is the key point. Besides, Go Go has more than held his own at the plate despite his struggles. Let’s remember, the guy is a rookie and will have ups and downs. The fact remains that he can bunt for a hit whenever he wants and has enough pop to occasionally run into one. That’s more than any other Twin can say. The bottom line is that if the Twins will do anything, the guys counted on for run production (Morneau, Cuddy, Mauer, Kubel, and Young) need to do their job offensively, not Go Go. Lastly, get some bullpen help Smith!
“The fact remains that he [Gomez] can bunt for a hit whenever he wants…”
Then why wouldn’t he every time he’s up?
You’re right Shaun. And you too Brian. Those Pohlads are evil, bad, and heartless. Yes, I’m infiltrating this blog as a member of their evil empire. You see, Shaun and Brian, they haven’t ruined enough lives today. The devil is insatiable you know. So, as their representative on this blog, please tell me about your mortgages. I’m either successful at foreclosing on you tonight or be subjected to a flogging tomorrow morning at dawn.
Unbelievable.
TT,
Are you saying that Gomez’s offense is the key to the Twins success? How about putting the responsibility where it lies, on the guys making the big bucks that I mentioned before? I’m not even remotely suggesting that Gomez is an offensive force; my point is that is shouldn’t be his job to be one, being that he contributes in a lot of different ways. For the record, I think you’re right–he should almost bunt every time that he gets up that isn’t an RBI situation, because if he gets any kind of bunt down, he’s on.
And Brian, thank you for the encouragement. I’ll try knowing what I’m talking about next time. You see, I’m one of many fair-minded people who has met Carl Pohlad, and all of his sons, and most of his grandchildren. They live, work, worship, and play right here in our community, all of them. They aren’t perfect. But I’ve personally witnessed anonymous acts of generosity that go well beyond cutting a check, by several of the family members. And I know they have agonized over subjecting the next generation to the venomous public attacks that are part of the cost of owning the Twins. So forgive me if I find ignorant tirades from mean-spirited little twits like you to be annoying.
Just got my 1987 World Series Collectors Edition today. I’m watching Game 6. We are losing 4-2 in the 5th. I hope we come back and win or else that Game 7 disc was pretty dumb to be included!!
p.s. Didn’t want to get in on the Pohlad thing!!
My ONLY real point in defense of the Pohlads, my friends: go ahead and criticize their actions, and question their motivations, but don’t demonize their character.
Mr. birdofprey (11:14 pm), AMEN!!! By the way, Ibanez just hit a walk-off homer against the Rays. Final Seattle 2-1. Guess he is hot and it just wasn’t us.
is it me or did this discussion deteriorated into a country song?
Trades are no longer the solution (Chad Bradford please). We have three names to consider that are either in high A ball or AA. Robert Delaney, Anthony Slama and Jose Mijarez. The latter of the trio is the guy who got injured in a car crash and missed a lot of the season. Apparently his return has been quite successful and he’s been moved up to AA. I bet he gets called up within a month. Remember the name Jose Mijarez. He is our best hope for adding a reliable arm to our depleted bullpen
Mr thrylos, What, pray tell, does Raul Ibanez hitting a homer have to do with country music? (Just a late night stab at humor.) By the way, how is Humber looking at Rochester?
Tedge,
I hear you and I agree. But for all of that to happen before the end of the month, it would mean that Bass has to be cut. Not sure that this FO would want to do that (and I am not sure why)
Speaking of right handed power hitters, DON BAYLOR has just hit his first Home Run as a Twin, to tie the score!!!
OK, I see the Baseball talk is back, I’ll stop now. But I like our chances against St. Louis!!
Daniel1966,
The Ibanez home run has nothing to do with country music; the comments about the church going Pohlads (and their grandchildren) do.
Humber was awful today (3.1 IP 4ER 2HR 5.23 ERA for the season). He has to be in the 25 man roster next year or he will be a minor league free agent. Methinks that he should be a minor league free agent (or a player to be named later for a Chad Bradford trade; but I guess the Twins missed on that one…)
The catch-22 for a small market Team is that you GET TO watch your young players develop, and of course you HAVE TO watch them develop. You hope that they can stay together long enough to Win it all. A lot of the ‘87 Team came up together in ‘82. I think we are about a year ahead of schedule right now, not complaining mind you, just enjoying the ride!!
TT: “Bass is in there because Gardy decided that was his best option, given the other pitchers available. The reason Bass was his best option was partly because other, better, pitchers had already been worked.”
And why is that? Why are Guerrier and to some extent Crain “already worked?”
Could it be because Gardy is wisely reluctant to use Bass in any situation where the game hasn’t already been decided? Resulting in Guerrier and Crain having to pitch in two, three, four games in a row? The very REASON the other pitchers are wearing down is because having Boof and Bass in the pen reduces Gardy’s options, rather than expands them.
TT: “If you get rid of Bass and replace him with a guy who pitches even fewer innings, then those other guys, who weren’t available because they had been over-worked already, need to pitch even more innings.”
You mean fewer innings than the TWO BATTERS Bass faced in Seattle Monday, forcing three more relievers–including Guerrier, who probably shouldn’t have been used at all–into the game?
Bradford would’ve helped the Twins bullpen more than Bass, I really can’t see how anybody can argue differently. And the Twins could have put in a claim, that much is fact.
So, with those givens, one has to wonder why–WHY–the Twins seem to be so reluctant to do what they can to help themselves.
I can understand not trading with Seattle for Beltre, it appears Seattle was unreasonable.
I can’t understand why you don’t put in a waiver claim at a likely cost of a little money and a likely A ball PTBNL.
wipron,
here is the kicker:
the Twins are not a small market team… The Twin Cities market is actually classified as “medium”. Ahead of the following markets that won world series in the last 20 years:
Marlins (2)
Arizona
Cardinals
Braves
Blue Jays (2)
Thyrlos. I would cut Bonser, not Bass. Bass actually can seem useful at times. Bonser is a waste of space. I have a friend that thinks that his entire major league career is attributed to his name. If it was John Bonser he would have received less of a chance. Fans just love yelling Boof! too much.
Anyways, despite having never seen Mijarez (or Slama or Delaney) I hope that the Twins view this situation as the Angels did in 2002. They called up a young reliever named Francisco Rodriguez who had only spent half the season in AAA. He ended up pitching in 5 games in September and made the postseason roster due to an injury. He then became a major factor in the Angels run for the Title as he, and Troy Percival, effectively made each game a 7 inning contest.
I’m not saying that any of the Twins top relief prospects are as talented as K Rod. But, I would love for them to give it a shot. We know what guys like Bobby Korecky and Casey Daigle can do (not much). So lets try the hard throwers that strike out a town of guys.
P.S. Isn’t Daigle dating or married to softball sensation Jenny Finch?
“Pohlad flat-out stated that the team wasn’t worth his “family’s well-being.”
He meant that it was worth it to rid of his family of the team if it meant he could rid his family of parasites like Brian and Shaun who make owning, administering, managing, coaching or playing for the team a miserable life.
Thats how any owner would feel.
Mr. wipron, As someone who was at those games, you are bringing back fond memories. If you only knew what was on the T-shirt sold outside of Busch Stadium and sent to me by my friend, a STL fan, after game five.
Mr. Tedge, Indeed, Casey Daigle is married to Jenny Finch and they have one child. A lovely lady and a lucky couple.
The Twins are not small market, but they rank 26th in revenues. This obviously keeps their payroll down. I better point than the small/big market argument would be that the Twins have played the entire 2008 season with a payroll that is around 17 million dollars under their projected budget. They had planned on spending that money (Johan, Torii) but they didn’t. They have financial room to make a trade, but won’t due to the overvaluing of certain prospects.
P.S. I have a hunch that the big hang up in these trade talks is other teams insistence on Toby Gardenhire in any deal. Not a snowball’s chance in hell. He’s the SS of the future.
Bonser has decent stuff, if you’re going to release someone, release Bass. There are 50 Bass’s floating around AAA.
And IMO, hoping someone’s going to come from A ball and help the pen is wishful thinking.
It’s also wishful thinking that the Twins can get an impact arm in an August trade. Besides, two of those guys are in AA. I’d take my chances on a talented guy than some retread that (insert bad team) pawned off on us. Also, I’m not saying that the minor league guys will fix the bullpen. I just think it’s the move that has the most potential for the rest of the season.
The Twins are gonna bring Mijarez up. I just know it. He’s even on the 40 man. Although, this isn’t a problem because Boof would have to be cut to make room anyways.
Poll question.
If Brian Bass and Boof Bonser switched names, which one would you prefer be demoted?
Just want to echo wipron’s joy at being able to watch as this team develops, obviously not fast enough for some. Feels a lot like 1984, it really does, except the lower minors are now jammed with truly legitimate, high-ceiling prospects. Back then McPhail had to sort of lock and load, and hope to win on an up cycle with luck as an ally. This franchise is within two years of having a pipeline of talent capable of winning as consistently as any team in the MLB. Looking for indicators? Look at the records and stats in A-Ball on down for 2008.
Tedge,
a few things:
a. Bonser has way much better stuff than Bass (other than the capacity to blow gum bubbles while looking at a homer). His issue is that he is an overanalyzing perfectionist spaz a la Frankie Viola
b. Delaney and Slama would be light years ahead of Bass. Not much endurance but better stuff
c. Not sure who is married to whom
Not playing for 2008 when you’re 1/2 game out of first, because you think you’ll be good in 2011, is not something I want my favorite team to do.
Man. I don’t know why, but I’m the only one that thinks Boof is worse than Bass. I see good things when Bass pitches, albeit not often enough to warrant pitching meaningful innings on a pennant contender. I only see terrible things when Boof is out there (straight fastball, horrible pace). I think Bass can turn into a sinkerballing version of what Guerrier is now. However, this is all just opinion.
If you really believe that it just reflects your naivete.
If the decision is losing and making money(or breaking even)
OR
winning, but losing money.
There is no debating the answer.
How can you honestly think that anyone that is a self-made man could possibly live with be looked at as a loser at ANYTHING in his life?? There is an ego thing with people of money, just like there is with people in my walk of life. I want to be the lowest scorer in my golf league. I like being the highest scorer in my bowling league. I like driving the nicest car of my friends. I like living in the nicest house in the neighborhood.
I don’t have all of those things, but I definitely do have the desire to have them all. Surely, you must realize that Carl does as well?
I am certain that he has the desire to field the best possible team within the parameters of profitability. He put forth a very, very competitive team last year, but the Twins fell flat. Payroll doesn’t equal wins, just ask the Tigers. There is more to it than that.
Carl has a team of FO personnel that take the money, and does the determining were the pieces need to fit. Sometimes they hit, sometimes they miss, but from what I have seen the last many years, they have gotten very, very good bang for the buck.
Carl has spent a much higher percentage of the team income on player salary, especially compared to teams like the Yanks, but yet, for some reason, everyone equates lower payroll with being cheap.
BTW, a player-to-be-named-later is a device used often after waiver deadline to trade a quality player without the trade being killed with someone putting a claim on the minor leaguer being traded as PTBNL. Don’t be fooled, no trade would be made without a previously agreed upon pool of players being listed, otherwise, the resulting headache would be HUGE. Could you imagine the teams trying to agree on who that player would be? One team would want a good player, the other team would want to give up the leftover pieces.
The PTBNL is not some A catcher that is hitting .090 right now, that much I am ABSOLUTELY positive of.
The PTBNL isn’t really important. The Twins have a poorer record than Tampa, and had a chance to put in a waiver claim on Bradford before Tampa.
The ONLY risk to the Twins is they’d be stuck with Bradford’s salary this year and next. A claiming team is under no obligation to offer the waiving team any players in return whatsoever. If Baltimore doesn’t like what the Twins offer, they have the option of pulling Bradford back off waivers, or letting him go to the Twins for nothing.
alright,
me too, please name one single player who was traded as a PTBNL who was not a minor leaguer the last 20 years…
Uh, guys, enough of the “rebuilding” garbage. You don’t sign Livan if you’re “rebuilding.” You don’t sign Lamb if you’re “rebuilding.” You don’t re-sign Nathan if you’re “rebuilding.” You don’t re-sign Cuddy and Morneau if you’re “rebuilding.”
The core of this team remained in-tact (counter to the “rebuilding” architecture) and to anyone looking, this young staff had loads of talent from the get-to, and more “experience” than they’ve been given credit. (This IS Baker’s FOURTH year at this level already, you know? In fact, not one of our starting pitchers is a true rookie.)
I told you all from day one that this team would contend for a Wild Card spot. Just go back to those April posts. But, many of you still recite the BS “we’re rebuilding” line that management didn’t want to admit in April but now desperately wants to convince us of because we’re contending (so they look like geniuses, and so that there’s no actual pressure to win THIS year!)
No more “rebuilding” crap. No one is rebuilding around here. If we were, we would’ve traded Morneau, Mauer, Nathan, Liriano, Cuddyer, Crain, and Baker for tons of talentd “prospect” that would help us “rebuild.”
We’ve “re-tooled,” at best.
The truth is we’re “rebuilding” about as much as we’re a “small market.” (I mean, we’re only TWICE the size of KC, you know?)
Umm, Chief, and others, the claims aren’t put in in any order. The teams must submit a waiver claim to the league office by the deadline, and at that time the waiver claims are sorted by team status. This is not like a draft were each team is given a specific period of time to make the claim, then it goes to the next team. There is no way for any team to see what other team has put in a waiver claim. This isn’t football with their open waiver wire, this is a closed system, were only the league office is privy to the information.
I wish people that don’t understand the format would quit posting as if they did. Always better to be thought the fool, than to open your mouth, and remove all doubt.
me too, please name one single player who was traded as a PTBNL who was not a minor leaguer the last 20 years…
Sorry, I must have confused you somehow. I never meant to imply that the PTBNL was a majorleague player, just that it wasn’t some backup of a backup on a low-A ball team.
Umm, Thyros, after re-reading my post to try to find how I mislead you, I come to the realization that I just can’t make myself any clearer than I did when I typed BTW, a player-to-be-named-later is a device used often after waiver deadline to trade a quality player without the trade being killed with someone putting a claim on the minor leaguer being traded as PTBNL. Notice the “minor leaguer” qualifying the “PTBNL”? Sorry, I will try to be more even more exact in my phrasing to remove any last shred of doubt.
me too, no problem…
all I am trying to quasi-imply is that Humber (who would be a minor league free agent next season) would have gotten Bradford for the Twins this season, but someone did not want to pull the trigger…
I don’t know that I would have wanted Bradford here for certain, but I do know this much, if Bradford is a good pitcher (numbers would indicate as much), he would definitely be worth a Humber, however, I also don’t think that a PTBNL would be a Humber, since, I don’t see why any team would put a waiver claim on him to begin with. He isn’t exactly lighting up the minors this year as it is.
USAFChief at 12:14 am = best post of the night.
Anyone mentioning Carl Pohlad as the Twins owner automatically loses all blog-cred. JIM POHLAD is owner of the Twins, Carl retired years back.
Jon if everyone who thinks the Pohlad family is infatuated with their money is a parasite, then this state is full of parasites guess. Grow up and get a clue.
Boof or Bass? Stupidest conversaton ever. It’s like trying to decide where you’d prefer to take your prom date, Denny’s or Embers. Anyone they have in the minors is all but guaranteed to be just as effective, and therefore you probably have at least a few that would be more effective.
Uh, Me Too, perhaps you, as well, should make sure you know what you’re talking about before you open your mouth.
From the official MLB site:
“After the July 31 deadline, any player on a 40-man roster must clear Major League waivers before being traded. That is, the player must be offered to the other teams in reverse order of the standings. If he is claimed by any club, the club that made the waiver request can either withdraw the request and keep the player or let the player go to the claiming team, which would then have the rights to the player and be obligated to that player’s current contract.
A waiver, which is a permission granted for certain assignments of player contracts, can get complicated if more than one team makes a waiver claim. If more than one club in the same league makes a claim, then the club currently lower in the standings gets the player. If clubs in both leagues claim the player, preference goes to the club in the same league as the club requesting waivers.”
Waiver priority goes in reverse order of the standings. In this case, had the Twins submitted a claim on Bradford, they would have had priority over Tampa.
Just to make sure that everyone knows, I would have welcomed Bradford here as a player, since it seems clear that his stats aren’t terrible, especially when compared to other pitchers under Twins control right now. Just seems abit unfair for some to automatically start chastising the FO for not making the claim, when, clearly, they weren’t the only ones to not make one. The Twins aren’t the only ones needing bullpen help, but yet, only 2 teams made claims, and one of them, the Angels, doesn’t even seem to need the help. Considering the Angels record, I don’t see how it could have even been considered a “block” except from the National League, which seems abit far-fetched to me.
Chief, what did I say that wasn’t right?
You’re still confused, Me Too.
The Twins wouldn’t have had to offer Humber, Toby Gardenhire, Joe Schlobotnic, or ANY player to Baltimore.
All they had to do was say “we claim Bradford we’ll pay his contract.” At that point, Baltimore either lets him go, pulls him off waivers, or says to the Twins “we’ll let you have him if you give us Player X.”
If the Twins say “No, player X is too much” then Baltimore’s only options are to let Bradford go or remove the waiver request and keep Bradford. Baltimore can then ask waivers on Bradford again, but the second time the waivers are irrevocable.
There’s no risk, except money, to the Twins.
You said there’s no order to waiver claims. There is.
How am I confused Chief??? I simply pointed out that your, and many other peoples understanding of the waiver format was flawed. You still apparently don’t understand, otherwise, you wouldn’t be commenting on it.
Actually read what is posted, instead of trying to read between the lines. I am trying to be clear, but yet, to some, it just can’t sink in.
If you would have welcomed Bradford here, then what difference does it make whether or not any other team put in a claim?
And I am simply pointing out that I’m quite confident it is not my understanding of the waiver process that is flawed. Do some research.
Okay, I will try again for your benifit Chief.
There is no order to putting in the claims. Any team can do so at any time leading up to the deadline. No team is required to wait for their “turn”.
The assignment of the claims is when the ordering of teams takes place. Dang, it really isn’t that hard to understand.
The claim must be made by the deadline. The deadline is the same for ALL teams. After the deadline has passed, the claims are then put into order. It’s really that simple, I swear.
Perhaps you can understand this better if we term it “awarding” a waiver claim.
And by the way, the “deadline” you refer to is 47 hours after a player is placed on waivers. A player can be placed on waivers at any time, so while the “deadline” is the same for ALL teams, as you claim, there are many “deadlines,” since players are not all placed on waivers at the same time.
Chief, glad to see that you finally understand. I told you it wasn’t that hard.
Anyway….
my welcoming him as a Twin has nothing to do with anything other than his “numbers”. I can’t remember seeing him pitch in person. I don’t remember anything of distinction from him that makes him stand out. I am definitely not in position to make an educated decision on him. I can say this much with certainty, numbers are not the end-all/be-all to a player. There has got to be some-reason/any-reason that only the Rays, and the Angels(a team that doesn’t even need bullpen help) put in the claims on him, yet teams from their own division (Sox, Yanks, Jays) didn’t. Maybe their scouts had a better feel for him as a pitcher than I did just looking at his numbers. Is that possible?
OK, Me Too, you win. You’ve been wrong on every fact, can’t even remember seeing the player under debate, admit you’re in no position to make an educated decision, but you win.
I stand in awe of your debating abilities.
BTW, I think it would be wise for people to stop expecting the silver-bullet to suddenly appear out of no-where. The non-waiver deadline is well past, and now, in order for a good player to sneak thru waivers, well, it just doesn’t happen very often. The Twins, Sox, and Tigers all need bullpen help. For the Twins to sneak thru a GOOD bullpen pitcher from another team, well, sorry, I just can’t see how it would happen. Pretty sure Bradford made it thru due to something that we, as fans, are not aware of. Probably due to salary, possibly due to injury concerns, I don’t have a clue, but from my short, vague memory, waiver trades that I “remember” seemed to always revolve around underachieving-high salaried players being dumped, and, quite honestly, do we really need that??
Nobody’s referring to Bradford as any kind of silver bullet. There’s a reasonable chance he would be a better option than Bass. That’s all I ever said, and the only cost to the Twins would’ve been roughly $4M bucks over this year and next. This isn’t chump change, but it’s not exorbitant in this day and age, and we’re talking about the Twins, who are in the neighborhood of $15M dollars under LAST year’s self imposed salary limit.
I agree there’s not much chance to get much through the waiver wire, unless you’re willing to take on a bad contract.
That’s why, when a relatively cheap option comes along that might help a team in contention, you take it.
Good God Chief.
Show me one fact, JUST ONE, that I was wrong on. Please, show me one, I am begging you. I really want to know what I was wrong on, so that I can do better next time. Surely, there must be alot since you said it was EVERY fact.
I’m waiting oh sage one.
BTW, assuming that you can’t find one, I’m not going to waste my time with you any longer.
And yet in sixteen other blogs he was like, “Remember people, we don’t know who was offered to the Twins for Santana.”
Actually, no. I didn’t. But we all know that once somebody such as yourself gets going they won’t let a little thing like fact get in their way.
We know Lester and Ellsbury were never together. That was clear from day one (when the Twins went to Boston and asked “May we have Lester and Ellsbury?” and Boston said: “No you may not”.)
We also know that Chamberlain was never an option, and Cano was an option until the Twins actually asked about him.
Kennedy OR Hughes + Cabrera was the focus of the Yankees package.
The only things that were “uncertain” about the Santana trade were the one or two minor leaguers that would’ve filled out the package.
But Ellsbury/Lester were NEVER in the same package. That was clear from day one.
One thing that WAS not clear during the trade process was if Boston was actually serious about trading for Santana, or if they weren’t just sticking their foot in to try and pressure the Yankees into giving up more than they wanted to.
Toward the end, there was some speculation (not just by local writers but nationally) that the Sox would never have actually tried to sign Santana if the Twins had gone with their offer.
Uh, guys, enough of the “rebuilding” garbage. You don’t sign Livan if you’re “rebuilding.” You don’t sign Lamb if you’re “rebuilding.” You don’t re-sign Nathan if you’re “rebuilding.” You don’t re-sign Cuddy and Morneau if you’re “rebuilding.”
Livan’s purpose was to take pressure off a young pitching staff by being able to go deep into games. Less bullpen use in his starts means more availability when a younger players going.
Not to mention numerous Twins pitchers have commented on how Livan had helped them.
I hated the Lamb signing, mostly because I felt if they were rebuilding they’d have gone with Buscher at 3B. If it doesn’t matter what happens…why bother with a stopgap player from outside the organization?
Everett was signed I believe after the Young/Garza deal, as Harris can’t play two positions and the goal was to keep Punto out of the everday lineup. If Casilla had as productive a 2007 as he has in 2008, he’d likely have been the forerunner going into 2008 and Everett would either have not been signed or would’ve been an invitee at best.
As far as the Nathan/Morneau/Cuddyer signings, of COURSE you sign a few players long term while rebuilding.
You can’t build on a shaky foundation. Mauer, Morneau, Nathan, and Cuddyer were signed to provide the Twins with a core to build around.
M, M, and C were signed to stabilize the lineup. With Mauer’s ability to get on base, and Morneau’s power…they’re able to build around those two in the top of the order.
Unfortunately Cuddyer was injured before the 2/3/4 MMC could really get going, so we won’t know if that’ll ever work (Span and Casilla have taken over the top of the lineup)
Nathan in the bullpen is the closest thing the Twins have to a guarantee. Even before Neshek went down. If both Neshek and Nathan were healthy, the Twins would essentially have 4 other bullpen spots for 1 or 2 innings worth of work.
You’re thinking of a firesale when you wonder why a rebuilding team would sign players like Mauer and Morneau.
T,
It may have been your goal to keep Punto out of the lineup, but it sure wasn’t Gardy’s. Gardy has stated emphatically, numerous times, he likes when Punto is on the field. I am sure early on Gardy wanted to see what Harris, Everett and Lamb had to offer. He knows now, not much. Gardy chooses Punto over those players now, because he knows Punto is the superior player.
Gardy and the front office made it clear that the Twins were not rebuilding, and they expected to compete. Bill Smith says the organization rebuilds in the minors, not the major leagues. Gardy had the expectation to win this year. This was prior to the start of the season. Talk of a “rebuilding year” came from you.
T, I must say that I agree with you on pretty much everything you just stated.
Seems that the term “rebuilding” is bandied about an awful lot, when in reality, it was more of a major re-tooling. Sure, they seem like the same thing, but in reality, they aren’t. Retooling is more a way to get back to were you were before, quickly. Rebuilding is more of a long-term fix. Sure, the 2010 date was thrown out there as the date for supposed contention, however, I am pretty sure that wasn’t actually the goal of the FO. I am pretty sure there goal is to win EVERY year. You don’t sign Livan, Everett and Lamb is you don’t intend on winning. They could have easily went with the young players, allowing them to take their lumps like the young guys did in 82. That is not what they wanted to do. They wanted to put a winning team out on the field. Too bad that the “cheap” parrots can’t see that fact. Anyway, I am sure that many are going to dispute that they are trying to win by not making a trade, any trade, but the fact remains, they don’t sign those players if they had intended on just getting the young guys game experience.
Me Too: “Rebuild”/”retool” for me is semantics. I remember when the season was first started people such as myself were using the phrase “reshuffle”/”reload” and was met with about the same accusations of Kool-Aid chugging as I am now. So I said fine and went with “rebuilding” (and apparently now that’s not the right word either).
And as far as the offseason aquisitions go..the Twins wanted to at least compete (shoot for .500). Which I don’t think they felt they could do with guys like Casilla or Buscher (I don’t agree on Buscher but what can I do).
I don’t think anybody felt Casilla had a place on this roster anymore after 2007. Which is why I was so glad to see him turn it around this season.
But if they had just let Casilla take his lumps up in the bigs, there’s a chance that it may do more harm than good (he seemed to be turning into a head case last year), and would definately make it tough to compete to stay around .500.
Craig: If people are going to argue about the difference between “rebuild” and “retool” we might as well start arguing the differences between “compete” and “contend”.
Competitive teams shoot to finish at or above .500, with the goal to get experience for future success. An acceptable amount of growing pains are expected.
Contenders find themselves in the playoff hunt with a shot at going the distance. Contenders don’t get nearly swept by the worst team in the AL.
The 2008 Twins are a team that was built to be competitive and suddenly found themselves contending well ahead of schedule. (First because the two “faves” Cleveland and Detroit decided they didn’t want to run and hide, but now they’ve started playing very well).
It caught a LOT of people by surprise, including the FO. They’re doing they’re best to adjust by trimming the “stop gaps” they brought in with Livan and Monroe now gone. They dumped Rincon when he proved he was done, and they TRIED to get rid of Everett until he worked some kind of voodoo on poor Casilla.
And Me Too, while they’ve been unable to make a trade to help the club this season, I think some of that is because of what you’ve been saying. The young guys are getting some great experience right now as part of a pennant chase. The Twins are using the opportunity to assess their youth so they know where they stand in the 08 offseason.
That’s why Young and Gomez weren’t sent to AAA when they were struggling. Its why Span will likely continue to see regular time even when Cuddy’s back.
They’re letting it roll on the young guys to see where the gaps are (and we can tell based on the trade news that they were looking to bring in guys who could fit into long term plans vs. rentals and “Hawkins” type band-aids)
Depending on Neshek and Casilla’s health going into 2009, they’ll know 3B and bullpen help will be their primary concerns. And with the payroll space, they have a chance to actually bring in more of a long term solution vs. trading away the youth they’re trying to assess now for a short term fix.
I’ve said that since day one. A trade that can help the team needs to be able to improve the club now and also be a viable solution in the long term. I’d love to have given up Perkins or Blackburn for Beltre, but that would’ve meant Livan in the rotation and nothing to fall back on if Liriano struggles (which I pray he doesn’t)
And that to me seemed like it was closing one hole while opening another.
nate,
“if everyone who thinks the Pohlad family is infatuated with their money is a parasite, then this state is full of parasites guess. Grow up and get a clue.”
The point was never “the Pohlad family is infatuated with their money”.
It was that “they don’t care about winning”.
Infatuated with money is a common problem, even to many people who don’t have much.
Lack of interest in winning is as rare as a flying pig. It is a warning sign for a potential suicide.
It is human nature to care about winning and to say that Twins ownership “doesn’t give a sh-t about winning” is CRAP!
compete: to contend, vie.
That’s from my dictionary.
T,
A competing team is a contending team. When Gardy and Smith said they expected the Twins to be competitive, they were not talking about playing .500 ball as you define competitive. They were talking about being contenders.
The Twins say they DO NOT rebuild on the major league level. I don’t see any reason not to believe them. That is their philosophy.
The Twins are patient, but young players are expected to succeed and help the team win. If they don’t, they return to the minors.
Hypothetically,
If you lost 162 consecutive one-run extra-inning games, were you competitive?
Because you just finished 92 games out of first place, so I’m guessing that you weren’t contending.
That’s from my dictionary.
Well there you go. It turns into your opinion vs. mine. Which means the discussion will never go anywhere.
Its critical to upgrade the relief pitching or were doomed. If we want to make a serious run at the pennant we must address this issue. Brian Bass is unwatchable,Breslows a chick, Reyes eats bad chicks is there any young stud in AA or AAA who can bring it. Were close with this scrappy lineup we have the burners we play good defense. Our starting pitching can only do so much with these young guys late in the season don’t expect a solid 7 innings. Twins management needs to pull a rabbit out of the hat and find somebody soon. Heck were in this thing. Oh and one more thing I hate the White Sox.
Interesting example sane, but even looking at a more real world setting.
Texas Rangers. They’re around 6-7 games back in the Wild Card and buried in the division.
But would you look at that team and say “Phew…thank god we play Texas.” ?
Now. Who was looking at the 9 games this month with Seattle and thinking “Phew…” ?
That’s BEFORE you saw the results of the first series.
A team can be competitive without contending for the title.
In other news: MLB FINALLY looks into the shadiness that was Manny’s “blackmailing” of Boston.
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8426884/Report:-MLB-investigating-Manny-deal?MSNHPHMA
Considering Boras’ track record, I feel the lack of shock from this potential news is understandable.
Though I just figured it’d be worth investingating on the basis of a player with a contract actively “dogging it” to force his team’s hand.
zendor,
“Brian Bass is unwatchable,Breslows a chick, Reyes eats bad chicks is there any young stud in AA or AAA who can bring it. Were close”
Three relievers short of a bullpen is NOT close!
an increased role for korecky is needed and also the twins ned to think about giving some of the young guys a chance…Daigle, Delainey, Slama ect.
sane:
Make that four (unless Boof is counted elsewhere)
boof needs to spend the winter with david wells and he’ll come back in the spring in top shape and ready to win 20 gms.
someone asked before about Neshek’s path to the majors. It wasn’t that quick, he did about average, moving up about 1 class per year before joining the twins. rookie ball in 2002, MLB debut in 2006. He wasn’t like garza who made it to MLB in 1 season. rookie ball in ‘05, MLB debut in ‘06.
As far as Delaney, maybe he could help, but in my opinion he was not the best bullpen arm at Ft. Myers when he got called up to New Britain, Anthony Slama was. If anyone in the minors could help the bullpen I think it’d be a guy like Philip Humber, who did fantastic in his brief stint as a reliever for rochester before gaining his rotation spot back, or Kevin Mulvey, who has been pitching well recently.
Phil Humber got blasted by a bad Lehigh Valley team last night, yet people want him to be promoted?
can anyone give me a reason why the twins shouldn’t give Alejandro Machado a chance to be the guy Casilla was in place of Everett?
Dude’s mashing .366 at Rochester with a .564 slugging percentage in 32 games, the same amount casilla played before being called up with his .219 avg.
TNG,
“he was not the best bullpen arm at Ft. Myers when he got called up to New Britain, Anthony Slama was. If anyone in the minors could help the bullpen I think it’d be a guy like Philip Humber, who did fantastic in his brief stint as a reliever for rochester before gaining his rotation spot back, or Kevin Mulvey, who has been pitching well recently.”
I agree with everything.
My question is:
Who in the Twins organization, thinks that Brian Bass is a better option than the guys you mentioned (or Bradford, Rauch or unnamed-unclaimed waiver guys?
Whoever is protecting Bass should step up to the microphone and ’splain, Lucy!
BallFour - I’d want Humber promoted as a reliever, not a starter.
I’d like to see Machado in September. But my hunch is Tolbert is next in line for Everett’s spot.
sane - I can not fathom how Bass is still on the team, even if they optioned him I have a hard time believing anyone would claim him. and no he is not a better option than any you mentioned.
Put me in the pro-Humber camp, as the Brian Bass Memorial Long Relief Guy.
I’m also in the camp of pessimists about solving a “two good pitchers” problem in the bullpen. I don’t see MLB-ready pitchers in the minors, or on the waiver wires. Below average, yes- good, no.
I recall the Twins FO was high on Machado before he got hurt. It’s fun to see yet another player emerge, kind of from nowhere, a la Luke Hughes. Neither Hughes or Machado made anyone’s pre-season top prospects lists. Should be interesting competition next spring.
TNG,
Do you happen to know how frequently LaVelle or JoeC are granted an audience with Pope William and if they are permitted to ask questions like:
WTF Bradford?
WTF Bass?
WTF Hunber?
WTF Mulvey?
WTF Slama?
Maybe they can write out the questions and have them delivered by messenger.
sane - heh
sane,
Who would you cut…rookie stats.
86IP 102H 62ER 11HR 54BB 64K 6.49ERA
64.67IP 79H 36ER 11HR 21BB 31K 5.01ERA
Regards,
Dragon,
I would NEVER make a decision on stats alone.
So my answer is…………………………………huh?
