Gardenhire on No. 600: I feel pretty lucky
Posted on August 12th, 2008 – 11:08 AMBy Joe Christensen
Ron Gardenhire became the second Twins manager to reach 600 victories on Monday, joining Tom Kelly, who went 1,140-1,244 with two World Series titles in his 16 season at the team’s helm.
Did some research this morning and learned that Gardenhire’s .551 winning percentage ranks second among the 13 active managers with at least 500 victories.
Bobby Cox, Braves 2,310-1,827 (.558) 15 postseason trips, 5 pennants, 1 title
Ron Gardenhire, Twins 600-489 (.551) 4, 0, 0
Mike Scioscia, Angels 777-636 (.550) 4, 1, 1
Charlie Manuel, Phillies 546-468 (.538) 2, 0, 0
Joe Torre, Dodgers 2,126-1,829 (.538) 13, 6, 4
Tony La Russa, Cardinals 2,441-2,125 (.535) 12, 5, 2
Dusty Baker, Reds 1,214-1,108 (.523) 4, 1, 0
Lou Piniella, Cubs 1,675-1,544 (.520) 6, 1, 1
Cito Gaston, Blue Jays 708-656 (.519) 4, 2, 2
Jerry Manuel, Mets 528-492 (.518) 1, 0, 0
Terry Francona, Red Sox 728-687 (.514) 3, 2, 2
Jim Leyland, Tigers 1,310-1,332 (.496) 5, 2, 1
Bruce Bochy, Giants 1,072-1,133 (.486) 4, 1, 0
After notching No. 600, Gardenhire said, “They told me that after the game. You know what? I don’t pay much attention to it. It’s a team thing. It’s great to win 600 games, and you’re fortunate to have a job, and I’m very proud of that.
“This organization has given me an opportunity here and blessed me with a lot of very good baseball players and a great coaching staff and a great bunch of fans. So I feel pretty lucky, to tell you the truth.”
149 Responses to "Gardenhire on No. 600: I feel pretty lucky"
Wow! Gardy’s had 1,089 mis-managed games. Not quite as good a gig as a tv weather anchor, but not bad.
[Note: This was sarcasm. Please check the batteries in your sarcasm meter]
Seriously, even if you hate the guy you should be able to appreciate milestones like this for him. He does pretty damn well for a guy with millions of bosses.
Congrats, Gardy! Here’s to 600 more.
And now can we talk about LNP? I think…..
Congratulations to Gardy. I hope he can solidify his legacy over the next few years by making some noise in the postseason — winning at least a couple of pennants and a World Series or two.
Bobby Cox would never bat LNP second.
Neither would anyone else on the list.
not to argue with gardy but i think bobby cox has had a little better talent to work with over the years, at least imo.
where does Gardy’s post-season record ranks among the 13 active managers with at least 500 victories?
Gardenhire should’ve been fired after the Yankee playoff debacle. I don’t care if he sits on the bench and the players win despite his great effort to have them lose or not, he has no business being a Major League manager.
6th or so
oops… i meant i am saying he is about the 6th best on that list
Nico,
which yankee debacle do you speak?
Most of the managers named have WS rings. When is Lardy going to get his
It’s funny. I’m a blogger, and part of being a blogger (and apparently even more part of being a commenter on a blog) is feeling the need to question and second guess their team’s manager. I do it from time to time. If I was manager, I would do this or that and the team would never lose (right?). I don’t like a lot of the things that Gardy does in-game or in lineup construction, etc. But like batting average and offensive production should not be the only determinants to judge a player by, you can’t judge a manager solely on those things. His job is as much psychologist and motivator and all of those things too.
So as a blogger, I will continue to second guess from time to time.
However, if we are being completely fair and look at what our expectations for the Twins are when a season starts and where they end up… they always end up better than we would have thought, or the experts think. At some point, don’t we have to take a step back and give just a little bit of credit to the manager for that?
No sarc here. Gardy would have had 600 years ago if he had a clue. He doesn’t know when a starting pitcher is out of gas and can’t manage the bullpen. He plays favorites with short, non-hitting infielders.
Its funny, the only years the Twins are picked to do well, like 2005 and 07, they did not. Maybe gardy thrives as the underdog. 06 playoffs favored, lost…
Thanks for opening my eyes as I didn’t realize that Joe Torre was the manager of the Dodgers.
I love that add with Torre gone to LA where he is doing yoga and surfing. One of the best commercials ever
Not sure who it was - so speak up if it was you - but someone posted not too long ago that the Twins make the fewest moves or substitutuions of any MLB team and they had the stats to back it up. His/her point was that Gardy simply makes out the line-up card and then just sits and watches the games just like the rest of us.
Can’t really argue with that.
Shawn in Binghamton says:
August 12th, 2008 at 11:41 am
Nico,
which yankee debacle do you speak?
The Yankee debacle where Nathan got slapped around in Yankee Stadium in his third inning of work when he hadn’t even pitched 2 innings all year.
where does Gardy’s post-season record ranks among the 13 active managers with at least 500 victories?
Good ol’ reliable fandom…
I have my issues with Gardenhire, although I’d have to say that I’m glad we don’t have Dusty Baker.
“I have my issues with Gardenhire, although I’d have to say that I’m glad we don’t have Dusty Baker”
Or Billy Martin
Yep, Gardy is a horrible manager because he doesn’t take our advice. That’s why he is managing the team on top of his division and we are all posters on this blog. I’d say Gardy gives a little more attention to his job than we do to ours since I don’t see him posting on this blog instead of doing his job. I also can’t believe Gardy has all the experts on ESPN and others all fooled, because I know the people that work sports for a living think he gets the most out of his teams.
I agree, Gardy does need to step it up in the playoffs (hopefully this year). He seems very mistake prone and buckles in the pressure of the playoffs. Like when he had his Twins swining away instead of taking a few pitches against Zito 2 years ago in game 1, when Zito was averaging almost a walk an inning. Or leaving in Rincon to get rocked by Sierra. Or pitching Nathan 3 innings. Or letting Kubel hit against Rivera, when we had both LeCroy and Ford both hitting well on the bench. Hopefully he makes up for it this year though. Go Twins!!!
If we had Dusty Baker he’d run our starting pitchers out there for 140 pitches each night and blow out their arms…a la Prior, Wood…
Billy Martin has a world series ring and been there 4 more times as a manager (and has 5 WS rings as a player)
Dusty Baker led his team to a world series and has a WS ring as a player
Gardy has been watching the world series from his TV
Seth - just because our expectations for this team are so VERY low and Gardy exceeds them doesn’t necessarily reflect on Gardy’s managerial skills. it could be we as fans don’t expect very much or that since Gardy has taken over the division has stunk with no real challengers for the Twins..
Postseason win %:
Cox- .508 (66 w)
Gardy- .286 (6 w)
Scoscia- .469 (15)
Manuel- .000 (0)
Torre- .603 (76)
La Russa- .551 (59)
Baker- .489 (23)
Pinella- .489 (23)
Gaston- .529 (18)
Francona- .710 (22)
Manuel- .000 (0)
Leyland- .551 (27)
Bochy- .333 (8)
Of course, a lot of the managers have a lot more games managed than Gardy, especially the ones with much higher win percentages. Since Joe chose 500 W as a cutoff, it’s not surprising that Gardy has fewer games managed in the post-season than many of the others.
Of the managers with between 500-1000 wins, Fracona, Gaston, and Scoscia are ahead of Gardy and the two Manuels are behind him. I would rank him in the middle of the upper-third of managers anyway, so that smells right.
Look at the markets that have performed the best recently: NY (Torre), BOS (Francona), LA (Scoscia). Gaston, LaRussa, and Leyland each piled up playoff wins over 15 years ago when the economic climate of baseball was quite different.
Honestly, Gardenhire and Bochy are nearly unique on the list in that they have several playoff appearances with the same mid-to-small market franchise. Bochy repeatedly took SD to the top of the frequently mediocre NL West and lost quickly. Gardy did the same thing in the AL Central. Compare them to the Norwegian football club Rosenborg who won 13 straight Norwegian club titles against their peers, but never even made it to the quarterfinals of the Champions League when they had to compete against ManU, Chelsea, AC Milan, Real Madrid, etc. The Twins and Padres have consciously built their teams to compete for division titles year after year with a great deal of success, but that strategy includes some risk aversion that has kept them out of the World Series for at least a decade.
Bobby Cox had much more talent then Gardy has ever had. He could of fell asleep and still won games as a manager. Underachiever Bobby Cox. Best team in the 90’s and only 1 championship
As a matter of fact, from Joe’s list only the 2 Manuels and Gardy did not manage a team that appeared in a World Series. (and both have better post season record than Gardy).
Plus, both of them have been fired for inadequacy (Charlie by the Indians the year after he lost the ALDS and Jerry by the WhiteSox after a winning season that was closed but not cigar). I guess that if the Twins fans and the press cared, like those in Chicago and Cleveland, Gardy should be next if the Twins do not make it all the way this year.
He could of fell asleep and still won games as a manager.
In situations such as those, that’s usually the sign that a team doesn’t really need a manager.
Case in point, Joe Torre and the Yankees. I have a good feeling that Torre could’ve taken a month off and that team would still play exactly the same as it usually would.
true Braves have been chocking for over a decade!! imagine the fan disgruntalness on their blogs!! T would be in his glory material to poke at FOREVER!!!
Andrew: The Manuel’s are not behind him they are non applicable to this ranking. Gardy ranks dead last in the list as far as post-season record goes. Here is your list with the correct rankings:
Postseason win %:
Francona- .710 (22)
Torre- .603 (76)
Leyland- .551 (27)
La Russa- .551 (59)
Gaston- .529 (18)
Cox- .508 (66 w)
Baker- .489 (23)
Piniella- .489 (23)
Scoscia- .469 (15)
Bochy- .333 (8)
Gardy- .286 (6 w)
and here is the kicker:
in bold above are managers who were dismissed by their clubs within 2 years after they reached the post season.
looks like more proof of “MN mediocre” embracement
Ok, so apparently I’m one of the only ones that likes Gardy… I think he’s done a terrific job based on the talent he has had available to him over the years (Rivas, Ford, Jones, LeCroy, Punto, Koskie, Mays, Rincon, Luis Rodriguez, Dougie Bseball, etc). Sure, I may not agree with every move he makes, but, for the most part, he does a very good job.
Yes, sometimes he shows too much loyalty to some of the players, but maybe that’s why they like him so much, and play so hard for him. I haven’t seen very many ex-Twins do much since they’ve left (Silva, Rivas, Guzman - until this year, Mays, Milton, Hawkins, Eddie, etc). David “I sucked as a Twin” Ortiz and Matt “I fear the Dome” Garza, being exceptions so far.
Just saying…
“The Manuel’s are not behind him they are non applicable to this ranking. ”
Huh? They make Gardenhire look good so they don’t apply? At least he’s not getting swept like they were. And Manuel got swept in Philly without being dismissed. Last I checked, Philly is not the most forgiving sports city.
And your bolding is thoroughly irrelevant. Bochy and Baker chose to leave for other jobs, which means that they WERE NOT dismissed. Piniella lost with the Mariners in 95, 97, 00, and 01 but didn’t leave until after a 93 win season in 02, which was to manage Tampa and be closer to home. Leyland managed for 4 years in Pittsburgh before being fired, then quit on Florida after winning a championship and having his team sold away- not particularly comparable. Finally, Torre’s situation is very unique. I don’t see the Pohlad family reacting like the Steinbrenner family and I actually appreciate that.
imho this is a pointless argument!!!
let’s get back to punto, everett, kubal, young or gomez bashing.
how about those Vikes!!!????!!
Mea Culpa. Here is the list with the Manuels (Charlie won 2 games with the Indians in 2001):
Francona- .710 (22)
Torre- .603 (76)
Leyland- .551 (27)
La Russa- .551 (59)
Gaston- .529 (18)
Cox- .508 (66 w)
Baker- .489 (23)
Piniella- .489 (23)
Scoscia- .469 (15)
Bochy- .333 (8)
Gardy- .286 (6 w)
Charlie Manuel .250 (2w)
Jerry Manuel .000 (0w)
Still Gardy’s suckage is obvious, so is the rewarding also runs vs champions attitude of Twins’ fans and press.
len 3 has a thing on knee-shack the famous brother of caddy-shack!
When the Braves played the Yankees in the WS who fell asleep more Cox or Torre
Some of these statements are ridiculous, as are the 2% of people that have voted Gardenhire the “worst” of the managers in the poll that goes with this article.
So he has a lousy postseason record. With the exception of 2006 (and maybe one other year under his helm), did we ever really have a World Series caliber team here? Honestly? I don’t think so.
This year is a great example. This team, by any objective measure, is overachieving, and has been overachieving for the past couple months.
Should they get into the playoffs, does anyone objectively think we’re looking at a World Series winner here? I love the Twins, but this simply is not a World Series team (by the way Twins, please keep overachieving and prove me wrong).
Give Gardy a break. You think he wouldn’t have liked the front office to have traded for a big bat any of the past several years, or a set-up guy this year? Of course he would have. But, unlike Torre, Francona and some other managers with better postseason records, he has to play the hand he’s dealt.
francona has 7 all stars and a 154m payroll and is how many games ahead of the twins?
JP,
Guzman had a great year last year as well. His abysmal season with Washington where he was the worst hitter in baseball was followed by massive reconstructive elbow surgery, and he’s rebounded fantastically. Kudos to him, I always loved Guzzy.
The players you rattled off, however, have nearly all had major injuries since leaving the Twins or were already 35-36 years old, so I don’t think they’re fair comparisons.
How about Johan Santana? How about Torii Hunter?
Eddie’s having a great year with Texas. Hawk had a great year with the Rockies last season and posted a phenomenal year with the Cubs after leaving.
Jacque Jones is struggling now, but posted arguably his best season after leaving the Twins and going to the Cubs.
Corey Koskie was putting up a pretty solid season with the Brewers before his unfortunate concussion, and hasn’t played since.
There are players who do just fine elsewhere after leaving the Twins. Just because you’re pointing out players who weren’t even good at the end of their tenure with the Twins doesn’t mean otherwise.
JP- I’m a huge Gardy fan. I don’t think he’s one of the 2 or 3 best managers in the game, but I think the Twins are lucky to have him.
Weaknesses:
1) Tendency to play no-hit, strong glove players- This is an organizational problem. They very really acquire players who hit well with a marginal glove. If the players had both skills, they may be out of the Twins’ price bracket. When has Gardy continually benched a better hitter who was on the major league roster? I know it’s frustrating to see Punto out there every day, just like it was to see Castro over Bartlett and Mientkiewicz over Morneau. But he doesn’t control who gets called up and in many cases, he doesn’t even have a better alternative.
2) Over-reliance on one-run strategies- I would rather see him bunt less and let players swing away more, but again, it’s a question of personnel and organizational philosophy. They do not have an abundance of power hitters in the system, and when the FO hires minor league instructors who tell David-freaking-Ortiz not to pull the ball, what is Gardy going to do to reverse several years of teaching in a few weeks or months? That’s hardly the managers job, anyway, and he does fairly well with the cards he’s dealt.
3) Developing plate discipline among young players- I wish the Twins would improve in this department, as their recent history is littered with players who never reached their potential due to an inability to recognize pitches and a proclivity to swing at anything. Jacque Jones, Torii Hunter, and Christian Guzman come to mind. Now the potential superstar career arcs of Carlos Gomez and Delmon Young depend on precisely this skill, and my hopes are not very high. On the other hand, I’m not sure how much Gardy could do day to day to change this problem. It may be another one of those organizational problems. Do we expect him to be in the cages giving tips on how to identify pitches? Do we know if that would even help? I guess I wish the Twins had this skill, but I don’t know how they could get it.
Strengths:
1) Bullpen management- A crucial skill for the modern AL manager, and one that Gardenhire is excellent at. Year after year, the Twins outperform their pythagorean win projections because they get more out of their middle relievers than computer projections anticipate. Look at the list of players who have had seasons of at least 50 IP with an ERA+ of 130 or better and show me another manager who could find the usage pattern and matchups to achieve that success: Mike Jackson, Latroy Hawkins, JC Romero, Eddie Guardado, Johan Santana, Juan Rincon, Jesse Crain, Matt Guerrier, Dennys Reyes, Pat Neshek, Glen Perkins. Add in the fact that he got decent seasons out of guys like Joe Roa, Aaron Fultz, and Bob Wells and he looks even better. Again, the organization deserves credit for getting these guys, but he uses them as well as anyone.
2) Integrating young players productively- I know we complain a lot about how the Twins bring players along slowly, but how many high minors prospects have the Twins failed to convert into productive big leaguers? Not many. Morneau, Santana, Liriano, Baker, Mauer, Kubel, Bartlett… Even Blackburn, Span, and Casilla look like they’ll succeed. Where are the failure? They were able to get useful pieces for Garza. Lohse has been up and down since they cut him loose, but that’s about the only real failure. The Twins are way above average in this area, it is vitally important to the health of the franchise, and Gardenhire deserves a lot of the credit.
3) The Twins play hard- Watching a lot of out-of-market games has made me realize how often a team comes out flat. I don’t know how to prove it, but I distinctly believe that the Twins come out ready to play as often as any team in the majors. Gardenhire is primarily responsible here.
To me, it is clear that Gardenhire deserves more credit for the successes of the team than he deserves blame for their failures. Moreover, the things he is good at are more important to winning than the things he is bad at. Considering how often a meddling manager botches very simple aspects of the game, I think the Twins are lucky to have a competent and consistent leader.
Tough crowd around here. As a former coach, I’m getting flashbacks to why good people get out of coaching in the first place. Its never good enough for the experts. Course, Gardy gets paid a nice sum of change for his job and everyone has an opinion … I get that …
EAA, former coach here as well, regular season dont mean a thing if you cant take care of the real season
He’s done more with less than any of those managers on the list. His world series win next year will pull him ahead or even with 4/5 of that list. Gardy’s not perfect, but I’m happy with him and wish him the best
I think the twins hitting philosphy is what needs to go, Ortiz is a perfect example, play to the strengths of each players not have the player play to your likings in regards to hitting a ball
Gardys pitcher management is of course terrible. He leaves starters in way too long when they are doing poorly, and takes them out way too soon when they are doing well.
Of course, to get where he is, he must be doing something right.
Without a doubt, Bobby Cox is the worst winning manager there ever was.
Considering the talent the Braves had, they should have won a couple more Series.
Anyone remember the stupid move Cox made in the 91 series? IIRC, he put in Charlie Leibrandt in against Kirby Pucket in the 6th game…and Pucket had some outstanding numbers against Leibrandt.
1 home run later and it’s on to game 7.
Prominent recent departures:
OPS+ in last Twins year- Best OPS+ after
Hunter: 122/123
Bartlett: 88/66
Castillo: 92/88
Stewart: 88/101
Rivas: 67/65
Jones: 98/108
Lecroy: 110/91
Mientkiewicz: 122/108
Koskie: 113/110
Guzman: 78/124 (supposedly helped by eye surgery)
AJ: 115/94
Mohr: 87/115
ERA+, same format
Santana: 130/144
Silva: 103/69
Garza: 118/110
Lohse: 106/112
Mays: 79/54
Romero: 128/210
Guardado: 157/163
Hawkins: 243/167
5 Players had seasons with an OPS+/ERA+ more than 10 points better at ANY POINT after leaving the Twins. (I don’t blame Gardy for Santana being in this group).
7 Players never played as well as they did in their last year as a Twin.
7 Players remained within 10 points.
That’s pretty solid.
I happen to be one who believes that the playoffs are a crap shoot. So, what he has done over 1,089 games means a lot more to me than what he has done over 8 games.
“I think the twins hitting philosphy is what needs to go, Ortiz is a perfect example, play to the strengths of each players not have the player play to your likings in regards to hitting a ball”
Amen to that. Of course, that goes waaaaay beyond the ML manager.
“Gardys pitcher management is of course terrible. He leaves starters in way too long when they are doing poorly, and takes them out way too soon when they are doing well.”
You have anything to back that up besides your opinion on a few games?
Nico,
glad you mentioned that game. I was at that game. Gardy had nobody left at all he could trust. I remember sitting there saying we’re going to lose, even after taking the lead. Romero was terrible by then, most everyone of credibility had been used. Nathan was the only chance in Yankees Stadium. Can’t pin that on Gardy,
Gardy has shown the ability to do much with little - my beef is that he has a VERY inconsistent way to manage most games. He does not necessarily make the best match ups like LaRussa loves to do. His management of pitchers has a TON to be desired - he is halfway through his managing career and is still “learning” at our post post season anticipations.
Interesting the top 2 on thrylos’s list, Francona and Torre…basically sucked as managers until they got to VERY BIG spending teams.
Francona’s high water mark was 2 3rds in Philly between 2 5th’s.
Torre, managed a high water mark of 4th with the Mets, Made the playoffs once in Atlanta (can’t remember if that period included Ted Turner spending) and made a 2nd with St. Louis, 3 3rds, a 4th and 6th.
So anyone who wants to say these are great managers, should qualify their statement by adding “WHEN the OWNERS spend double of most other teams.
Bottom line, when both these Wizards managed teams with talent similar to Gardy, their records were substandard.
Regards,
Regards,
Bobby Cox is the most overated manager on that list. Anyone with any of those teams and that stupid tomahawk chop would have made it into a dynasty during the 90’s. I can’t call out a name more overated then Bobby Cox
LaRussa is also a bit overated. Those Oakland teams were loaded with talent and to only get one WS victory between the bunch is jaw dropping and a major dissapointment
“EAA, former coach here as well, regular season dont mean a thing if you cant take care of the real season”
IMO the Twins have not been the team to beat in the AL in any of their post season appearances under Gardy. Can he be faulted for not pulling a TK and beating a “better” team (87 Tigers) in the playoffs? I guess so if that’s the route you want to go. It certainly is disappointing to me as well but I tend to fall on the side of some on this blog who believe that he deserves a lot of credit for even getting some of these teams to that point.
I know Cox is getting killed for lack of playoff success and they have lost some series they should have.
Of the 5 World Series however, how many should the Braves have won?
If you accept that the Twins were the better team, basically they should have been the underdog in all 5. And they managed 1.
Not giving him a free pass but saying he might not be that horrible either.
Game management is over-rated. Clubhouse management is not. Gardy is pretty good on balance.
Congrats, Gardy… even if you do drive me batsh*t crazy sometimes.
Good for Gardy. He has a team we all thought was going to be a last place team in first place on 8/12.
We can all second guess him, it is part of the fun of the team, but think of the dozens of other managers who have tried and failed to be successful with even more talent than the Twins have.
Most overrated manager on that list:
Joe Torre. With that payroll, the fact that he did not win 10 WS rings is proof that he cannot manage. The only thing he was successful at was keeping the Boss happy.
Andrew selective, aren’t we?
As far as batters go,
The following were omitted:
David Ortiz 120/178
Jacque Jones 98/108
Todd Walker 53/112
Brian Buchanan 86/146
Casey Blake 41/122
Chris Gomez 65/115
Javier Valentin 74/129
and these need to be corrected:
Mientkiewicz: 122(actually his last season with the Twins 2004 was 82)/108
Lecroy: 110/91 (actually in his last season with the Twins, 2007 his OPS+ was -7
Castillo: 92/88 (actually his OPS+ with the Mets in 2007 was 96)
for pitchers:
omitted:
Ponson 63/110
Eyre 84/87
Fultz 94/196
Balfour 109/328
Durbin 64/90
Greisinger 77/118
Kenny Rogers 99/134
Baldwin 84/135
Cressend 76/175
and these need to be corrected:
Romero: 128/210 (actually 373 with Philly in 2007)
Guardado: 157/163 (actually 364 win Cinci in 2006)
So, tally up again please 
People can hate on Bobby Cox all they want but 14 CONSECUTIVE division titles is outweighs any criticism. I don’t care what he did in the postseason. The playoffs are a sprint and they’re not won or lost by the coaches. If players don’t execute, lineup decisions, bullpen management, in-game mangement in general, won’t make a huge difference. The long haul of a season however is based a lot more on clubhouse oversight and consistent leadership. Being consistent for 14 years in a row is damn impressive.
“Most overrated manager on that list:
Joe Torre. With that payroll, the fact that he did not win 10 WS rings is proof that he cannot manage. The only thing he was successful at was keeping the Boss happy.”
I disagree. With that payroll, it’s a wonder he kept all those egos satisfied enough to win one ring, let alone 4.
David “I sucked as a Twin” Ortiz and Matt “I fear the Dome” Garza, being exceptions so far.
Don’t forget Dougie “It took me three years to finally have a good season so now I’m obviously the prefect fit for the Twins apparently” Mientkiwicz.
the Twins have not been the team to beat in the AL in any of their post season appearances under Gardy
They were in 2006
I omitted players who played one full season or less under Gardenhire (I can’t imagine he shaped their performance arc too much). Which means I forgot Jones and… just Jones.
You’re right about Mientkiewicz, I mistakenly took a partial season. Lecroy did not play another full season for the Twins. Castillo’s 07 with the Mets was not a full season. Romero’s 07 with the Phils was not a full season. Guardado’s 06 with Cincy was not a full season.
I pretty much hate Gardy’s game-management (overreliance on one-run strategies is an understatement, and his bullpen usage is pedestrian at best), but I think he does have a tangible, positive effect on the team via his player/clubhouse management and that’s probably something of a factor in the Twins’ performance. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if 50 years from now MLB teams regularly feature co-managers (probably NOT thusly titled), one the ex-jock with a “sense for the game and the boys”, the other an egghead (and, in the best of all worlds, also an ex-jock) who can understand numbers and probabilities and who is given final game management say-so.
I waited on Joe Torre a few times when he was with the Yankees. He always ate breakfast alone with a massive binder of data he positively PORED over. He wasn’t going through the motions of research — this was a guy who took his position very seriously. (In contrast, I imagine Gardy just kinda thumbing through, vaguely looking for a number to cherry pick to justify starting Punto against ____ [insert pitcher here].) My limited interactions with him (who didn’t even know and probably didn’t suspect I even knew who he was given my decidedly non-sports-fan appearance/job) suggested to me he was a highly intelligent, thoughtful guy. He was also a good tipper (but that goes hand in hand with brains).
People can hate on Bobby Cox all they want but 14 CONSECUTIVE division titles is outweighs any criticism.
Not according to the Vocal Majority around these parts. Gardy’s 4 titles are apparenlty meaningless without World Series titles.
Look at last night. The Twins have the best record out of all other Central teams since Gardy took over.
That’s still not good enough for some.
I omitted players who played one full season or less under Gardenhire (I can’t imagine he shaped their performance arc too much). Which means I forgot, umm, let’s see, nobody. You listed Jones who is also on my list. No other player you listed played one year for Gardy or else never finished even one season.
You’re right about Mientkiewicz, I mistakenly took a partial season. Lecroy did not play another full season for the Twins. Castillo’s 07 with the Mets was not a full season. Romero’s 07 with the Phils was not a full season. Guardado’s 06 with Cincy was not a full season.
If you expect Gardenhire to have a formative impact on any of those other guys in under a year, I can understand why a manger wouldn’t live up to your expectations.
I think it is safe to say we all disagree with Gardy on certain moves and decisions…however, division titles in 02-04, 06 and possibly 08–doesn’t that deserve credit??
People say, oh the division is weak…let us say it was in 02-04…The Twins still had a low payroll and won the division going away all three years. They dominated the teams in their division…I would say Gardy deserves credit for that. Plus, in 2006, the Central was very good with Chicago and Detroit–Gardy led the Twins the division title.
Yes, he has lost in the playoffs…upset the As in in 02 before losing in the ALCS to the Angels, lost to two superior Yankees teams in 03-04….The loss in 06 was bad–Twins were favorites…of course, there was no Liriano and Radke’s arm had basically fallen off…if the Twins had a healthy Radke, Liriano to go with Santana, I wonder if things would have been the same…I mean, Boof started game 2…
Remember, Gardy asked for BP help this year…didn’t get it….he has asked for superior free agents in past offseasons, didn’t get them…what do you want him to do? Hold a sit-in at Pohlads until he gets what he wants?? Threaten to sit sit the M & M boys until the FO gives him the trade he wants? He uses the team he is given…sure, he has influence on the roster, but my point is that he has specifically asked for help in the past and was refused. Yet, he has still won consistently. I think there are a few managers better than Gardy in MLB, but the list is not that long.
Many of you idiots here are ignoring the fact that some of Gardy’s moves, while seemingly nonsensical and non-intuitive, may actually reflect in his player development throughout the season. In fact, Gardy himself has mentioned that winning and player development goes hand in hand. Does anyone ever wonder why so many players we bring up from the minors have performed so well throughout the years, and that guys with household names have been main contributors to our pennant races? Perhaps it’s because Gardy, in many situations, likes to challenge his players so that they develop into solid performers in the future. Perhaps I’m wrong, but this is definitely something that needs to be factored into our consideration for Gardy.
thrylos,
Are you saying that the 2006 Twins were the most talented in the playoffs?
Interesting,
markinmn,
You forget, getting into the playoffs is no more useful than finishing 5th in the Central to many posters.
Regards,
“You forget, getting into the playoffs is no more useful than finishing 5th in the Central to many posters.”
now that is finally making some sense!!!
Dragon,
the 2006 Twins has the second best record by one win (96-66 - the Yankees had 97-65) from the AL playoff teams, were first in AL in batting average and second (by 0.09) in ERA.
thrylos,
Dragon beat me to the punch, but I would echo his thoughts - I don’t think anyone in 2006 was saying that the Twins were the odds on favorite to take the AL. Did it seem like they had all the momentum in the world and had a look of a title team - I can’t argue that. But, I think most still looked to the Yanks as the team to beat in the AL. Which, of course, proved inaccurate - which shows imo that anyone who tries to make a lot of sense of this stuff is just guessing anyway!
Yep. They were. And the same lineup that rallied them back from buried in the division choked late in the season and right through the postseason.
Unless you blame Gardy for Hunter’s boneheaded play in CF…
“The team to beat” is assigned by the media. Case in point, the Colorado Rockies in 2007.
Therefore, Clint Hurdle should be FIRED.
Forgot about Hunter’s play … bad memory that I had supressed!
Santana in the “MONEY” game, made sure to give up his required HR. That was obviously on instruction of Gardy. 
Regards,
2006 playoffs team rankings (in relation to AL):
Record:
1 Yankees
2 Twins
3. Detroit
4. Oakland
ERA
1. Detroit
2. Twins (with by far the best bullpen ERA in the league 2.91 vs 3.55 for Detroit)
4. Oakland
6. Yankees
batting average
1. Twins
2. Yankees
8. Detroit
13. Oakland
Do the math…
Thrylos:
First, as an aside, use runs scored and not batting average…but yes, the Twins were a better offensive team than Oakland–just not by the margin BA indicates…
In the playoffs–you tend to face better pitching. The 06 As had a good pitching staff. It was a safe assumption, even if they were the favorite, the Twins would not score a lot of runs. Granted, the As were not a great offensive team. However, if you factor in that Radke had no arm and Liriano was out, it is not a shock that the Twins lost.
thrylos,
Where do those rankings take into account Radke out? Particularly since the ERA had the benefit of Liriano ALSO out.
So using your stat reasoning, if Hunter, Mauer and Morneau had also been out, the Twins would still be favored?
I thought players actually played these games, NOT computers.
Regards,
That’s fine - good info and it has validity - but the Yanks still had the most wins in the league. Plus, a veteran team with post season experience and home field advantage in a stadium where the Twins have had little success.
the koolaid drinkers will continue to play the “little engine that could but never did” card holding this franchise to the lowest possible expectations and being so giddy when they somehow exceed that low low bar..
it’s o.k. to enjoy the team’s success and still have higher expectations.. you all won’t have to turn in your HOMER “I love smiling Carl’s flea market” card if you dare say a word contrary to the Twin’s company line
maybe it’s because if we hold this team to higher expectations we have to give up the “MN sports inferiority” complex angle???
Andrew: Nice post at 1:21. Agree 100 percent. He gets a lot of the big things right.
I’m a Gardy supporter, even if I have some game-to-game bitches.
For everyone else, I think it’s instructive to poke around the net and see what other fans say about THEIR managers. There ain’t very many popular ones.
FIRE,
I happen to have a very good memory of Calvin Griffith.
I am also aware that ONE of the requirements of actually having a possibility of playing in the WS is that a team MUST make the play-offs (even if they mean nothing).
Regards,
I’m not sure what thinking the Twins might not have been the best team in the AL in 2006 has to do with “drinking the koolaid” or posessing a Homer card.
when TK had his great teams in 87-88 and 91-92 seasons the expectations for the team was much higher then “Smiling Carl” gutted the payroll and a team that was so powerful became the 98 pound weakling.. it regularly lost 90+ games until 1 year before Gardy took over.. maybe we still have a hangover from that time period?? we don’t have to keep expecting such mediocre peeformances though! this team is young,talented,exciting and should be expected to seriously contend not just compete next year
Dragon, re: the 2006 ALDS:
In a season where Redmond hit .341/.365/.413 and with Kubel on the bench, Gardy decided to start the powerhouses Nevin at DH at game 1, Tyner in games 2 and 3 and RonDL White as the LF in every game. The only change during the game other than pitching changes was PR Lew Ford for RonDL in the 9th inning of game 3.
Gardy decided to start Bonser instead of Silva in game 2, then gets him off a tied 2-2 game after 87 pitches (sounds familiar?) and the bullpen (Gardy’s favorites Rincon and Reyes) blow the game open. Despite the reality that Radke was falling apart, Gardy (”the great clubhouse dude”) fought with Lohse that resulted in his trade earlier the season. Lohse could have helped the team in the post season and started him in the critical game 3 instead of Silva (or Garza, who did not make the post season roster in favor of Perkins)
Speaking of the home runs, in Game 1 Frank Thomas had 2 lead off home runs. One by Santana in the 2nd inning and one (the one that made the difference) by Crain in the 9th. I understand why Gardy would not have Santana pitch around Thomas in the second. But why he would not have Crain pitch around Thomas in the 9th?
Yeap, Gardy had nothing to do with the sweep
the sentiment among the majority of Twin fans seems to be that making the playoffs ever year and never winning a playoff series let alone winning 1 playoff game is acceptable?? I am open to everyone’s comments on this blog is that true? are you all content to MAKE the playoffs every year but never win a playoff series? I for one am not, at some point this team has to progress under Gardy they never have
FIRE,
you know my answer to this one
I’d rather have the Twins be the Marlins of the last 12 years than what they are under these clowns.
The Manager issue is interesting. Be it a Baseball Manager, or a plant manager, a corporate CEO.
In ALL cases there IS NOT 1 correct way to do the job. Generally speaking, most of these individuals are human beings with the attendant failings. IF there was ONLY 1 way, it would be done by a computer (far more efficient) and no Human need apply.
Many/most of these individuals are graded on results.
I find some Gardy moves, real head scratchers, others real genius. Probably in either case, that analysis has more to due with the outcome.
Someone who is a Superstar at say General Electric may be a disaster at IBM. It happens quite frequently.
Managers do what they do, ALL have their own way of doing things. If they keep the job for very long, it is most likely that their “boss” (be that an invidivual or shareholders) is satisfied with their performance.
Regards,
I certainly agree with that, Fire. But, I do think though there is a difference in accepting “mediocre” performances and dealing in the reality of the roster. I think the Twins are missing several key pieces which have been aptly discussed on this blog (right handed power, bullpen set up, middle infield, etc …) and I don’t think Gardy would object to filling any of those pieces in order to become a serious contender. In fact I think he’s called for it. So, I’m with you on the expectations but imo Gardy does well in his role as a manager and the FO/ownership should be the primary place of fan ire if you have it.
FIRE,
You set up a FALSE choice.
I want to make the playoffs, as that is the ONLY PATH to the WS.
I guess, if it’s not a WS win, forfit the season and save the effort.
Regards,
thanks Dragon.. I have no idea what your point is? that because Gardy has kept his job for this long he must be great? or that Gardy is not a success here but maybe would be with another team? or maybe that Gardy does things “the Twins way” and so is success..
Dragon,
I love the corporate analogy (albeit an oversimplification). And the Twins are indeed a (private held corporation) with an owner, president, general manager and field manager (the pecking order as far as Gardy is concerned). The Twins like every corporation have customers (fans) and their product has to make the customers happy so they buy it or willing to buy obligations (bonds in corporate life/build stadium out of tax money in sports life).
If the customers do not like the product of a corporation, the people responsible for the product (usually middle management, like Gardy and his coaches) are held accountable by the higher management and the higher management is trying to make changes.
According to this analogy, it is the fans’ complacency that drives the Twins mediocrity. Now that the fans are ever more involved stakeholders (i.e. financing the stadium), I hope that their expectations will rise to the level of other teams’ and that the management will make the necessary changes to please the customers.
If people were content driving Vegas, Pintos and Novas in the 70s-80s, and there was not a competition by a better (import) product, domestic car quality would have never changed.
Last night, for one night. Gardy was the better manager.
Even YES was killing Girardi for sitting Damon and/or Giambino in such an important game.
they are killing Cano out here for being so lazy last night
Shawn,
what exactly made Gardy a better manager than Girardi last night?
The only move he made was writing the lineup card (and that had the 0 for the-last-I-don’t-know-how-many Punto in the 2 spot)
Only the Hennepin county residents are officially ’stakeholders’.
eea well said.. I wasn’t necessarily placing any blame on Gardy for the Twin’s playoff failings or the final result of this year’s team.. I think there is a place for Gardy,FO,SMiling Carl to all be responsible for..
I hold Gardy liable for his teams coming out flat and unprepared in the playoffs - he doesn’t control the payroll or under T. Ryan’s reign who was even called up from minors..
the one team he had that included a Cy Young winner,MVP, AND batting champ along with the best bullpen in MLB comes out and lays a absolute terrible rotten egg .. that has to go on Gardy IMO
better lineup for the night given the resources. His team won. Punto 2nd instead of Harris/Everett/etc…. is not as bad as no Damon 1st when the Yanks needed a win.
This is a question that no one has asked:
Who do you want as manager if Gardy were fired?
Blackburn vs Mussina. Good game coming up.
Dick: Is Mussina a HOF sure thing Bert
Bert: I don’t know there Dick!
“Shawn in Binghamton says:
August 12th, 2008 at 3:39 pm
This is a question that no one has asked:
Who do you want as manager if Gardy were fired?”
Tommy Lasorda
“According to this analogy, it is the fans’ complacency that drives the Twins mediocrity. Now that the fans are ever more involved stakeholders (i.e. financing the stadium), I hope that their expectations will rise to the level of other teams’ and that the management will make the necessary changes to please the customers.”
A RAY OF HOPE!!! NICE concise take!!
I don’t look at Mussina and see a HOFer, but he is amassing the numbers
Who do you want as manager if Gardy were fired?
Wally Backman
Mussina a HOFer. Not till Bert gets in
Mussina could be in Bert’s shoes - close but not quite.
thrylos……
i agree
“Who do you want as manager if Gardy were fired?”
Co-managers Steve Lombardozzi and Dan Gladden
Who do you want as manager if Gardy were fired?
Otis Nixon. I want to see if he ages in reverse like on Mork and Mindy
LaPanta
“Who do you want as manager if Gardy were fired?”
Tony Bautista…Butch Husky as bench coach
of course
MARNEY GELLNER!!!
I am goint to officialy start a new promotion.
1. Anthony LaPanta dead squirel give away
2. Anthony LaPanta Bobble head night with removable rug
Mussina’s comparable pitchers in the modern era:
Curt Schilling
Kevin Brown
David Wells
Bob Welch
Bert’s comparable pitchers in his era:
Don Sutton *
Gaylord Perry *
Fergie Jenkins *
Tommy John
Tom Seaver *
Jim Kaat
Early Wynn *
Phil Niekro *
Steve Carlton *
Star denotes a HOFer
apples and oranges
FIRE,
Since I am not in/from the Twin Cities.
WHO are the stakeholders in the Metrodome?
I don’t know the jurisdictional distinctions.
Regards,
Player-manager LNP
i should have kept my typing mouth shut
Did TK get as much scrutiny as Gardenhire? No. Why not? 1. Blogs and comment sections were just getting started in the TK era. 2. TK won 2 WS. But the biggest reason is 3. After 1992, the Twins stunk and few people cared to follow the team. Now that the Twins have generally been a good team for a number of years, there is enough of a fan base that there are enough people to be critical. If Gardenhire wasn’t a winning manager, there would be less criticism–because nobody would be following the team.
thrylos98 Bob Welch had some very good years when he wasn’t blowing over a .08 at each game
WHO are the stakeholders in the Metrodome?
the same as with the new stadium: people who own homes or pay taxes in Hennepin county, anyone who purchases anything in Hennepin county, anyone who uses public transportation or a parking meter or a municipal lot in Hennepin county, anyone who stays in a hotel in Hennepin county and anyone who buys a ticket or food for any event in the metrodome.
Additional stakeholders (as far as giving the Twins income include):
any cable TV subscriber in what is deemed the Twins’ territory (MN,ND,SD,IA, parts of WI and IL, parts of NE)
anyone who buys anything with the MLB logo and the Twins logo
any subscriber in MLB.com
Did TK get as much scrutiny as Gardenhire? No. Why not?
hmmm
2 WS rings in 4 years would do it
I can’t believe Cito Gaston just came back as a manager. I wonder why he wasn’t asked sooner
thrylos98 -
Curt Schilling will get into the Hall of Fame. And Kevin Brown actually should get consideration - he had a great career. Wells and Welch? Not so much. But some of the guys on Bert’s list probably shouldn’t be in the hall…
TK got crushed near the end until 2001 took him off the hook a little bit. He didn’t exactly relate to young players…. at all
Ralph, I would also add that the Twins were a distant, distant #2 to the Vikings during the early-mid 80’s. Maybe #3 behind the North Stars. Les Steckel and Jerry Burns got their fair share of heat even in the pre-blog/comment days. Tk comes along and wins it in year one so he had some immunity for good while. Now, the Twins are still #2 to the Vikes but the gap has closed due to the titles and recent regular season success.
jimmy,
do you think the Cito thing is racism?
it seems weird a guy who won 2 WS doesn’t get a shot….
i hope not
Here lets have a vote on worst thing with hair atop someones head
Jerry Burns
or
LaPanta
gotta go Lapanta
Burnsie was much older
Shawn in Binghamton Cito just came back to manage from somewhere. He was pretty successfull. I just don’t know where he was or why no one had him do it sooner.
Mussina never won a CY or an MVP award and he was never thought as one of the most dominant pitchers in his ERA (same with Schilling and Brown) and that’s one of the reasons that Bert is not in the hall…
Frankly, I think that Doc Gooden has more HOF credentials (as far as being a dominant pitcher for 4-5 years) than Mussina
Lapanta.
I saw Burnsie a year or two ago and he looked exactly the same as he did in 1986. Old.
Kaat is not in the HOF either. Man some of the greats are getting the shaft.
Cito had interviews in the late 90s but didn’t get a job. He was in the Jays front office recently
Cito is a good manager. The Cubbies or Dodgers would have been a goood fit.
Btw,
the manager of the millennium is still batting Punto second and batting Redmond 3rd (while sitting Mauer) tonight.
Great job
Lapanta. When you think of Burns, you think of all kinds of stuff (Schnelker, Herschel Walker). When you think of Lapanta, you think of a rug.
This sucks. I’ve been sitting at work all afternoon and apparently most of you have been at the bar boozing it up. I mean, either most of these comments are drunken ramblings or you’re all mental. I’ll flip a coin….
I think Gardy does a pretty good job considering how cheap the front office is. This is a team built to win against mediocre and bad teams. So we’re pretty much a lock to win 75-95 games in any given year. But, as long as the front office is tight, we’ll never win a playoff series, let alone a World Series, with Gardy. It’s not his fault, though.
