Twins postgame: More road woes edition
Posted on August 29th, 2008 – 1:02 AMBy Joe Christensen
OAKLAND –Three times the Twins have turned to Jesse Crain on this road trip and three times that’s led directly to a loss.
He was in there tonight because Matt Guerrier had pitched three consecutive days and the Twins also were hoping to rest Eddie Guardado, who had pitched in three of the past four.
Dennys Reyes, Boof Bonser and Craig Breslow had all pitched tonight, and Manager Ron Gardenhire prefers to keep Joe Nathan available to protect a lead on the road. At home, he probably would have turned to Nathan for the ninth.
(I know this is a hot-button topic, and there are those who feel Gardenhire needs to answer the question every time the Twins lose a road game that’s tied in the ninth inning or later. But the answer has never changed. If Nathan gets the team through the ninth and 10th, and they eventually take the lead, someone else has to close. Whether you agree with Gardy or not, that’s not how he chooses to play his hand.)
So with a 2-2 tie and a runner on second base in the ninth inning, Crain was all by himself on the mound, with nobody warming in the bullpen.
“Those other people have to get some people out,” Gardenhire said. “Jesse’s gotta get some people out. It just didn’t work out tonight.”
Crain had an 0-2 count to Emil Brown and wound up walking him. (OK to be careful there with a base open, but with two strikes, he has to finish him off, Gardy said.) Then, Crain fell behind Kurt Suzuki 3-1 before grooving a fastball. Suzuki smashed the ball to deep left field, giving the A’s a 3-2 win.
“Another frustrating loss,” Gardenhire said. “We just didn’t put enough runs on the board. Our pitchers gave us a pretty good chance.”
OFFENSE TO BLAME
The Twins hit into four double plays. Several stolen base attempts were nullified by foul balls.
“It looks like we get good jumps, and we’re just panicking at the plate a little bit, fouling balls off,” Gardenhire said. “I think we’re going to have a little talk about that.
“We’ve gotta do a little better job of that stuff and start getting some of those runs in. That’s a lot of pressure on the pitching staff to continue to pitch at that pace, so we need to start scoring more consistently.”
BOOF DELIVERS
One postitive was Bonser, who entered with the score tied in the seventh and retired all four batters he faced, two on strikeouts.
“He felt good,” Gardenhire said. “We like moving him around a little bit and maybe get him in some tighter spots. I don’t know how much tighter you can get than a tie ballgame. We’ll see what we can do. He’s throwing the ball well.”
EXCELLENT ADVENTURE
Apparently, there was a fire that blocked traffic coming over the Bay Bridge from the team’s hotel in San Francisco. Most of the team was at the ballpark ahead of the fire. In typical custom for the starting pitcher, Nick Blackburn waited back and was planning to be at the ballpark about 4:30 (Pacific).
He got on the team’s second bus, along with some club officials, and the driver soon realized they weren’t going to get over the bridge. So they stopped at a BART station and took the train to McAfee Coliseum.
“We got on [the train] and the electricity was out,” Blackburn said. “The lights went out. There wasn’t any air conditioning. People were sweating profusely, and they finally got to this stop, and the doors wouldn’t open for a couple minutes.”
Blackburn arrived about 5:15. He said it was all part of a frustrating day but added, “I don’t think that had anything to do with what happened [on the mound] tonight.”
104 Responses to "Twins postgame: More road woes edition"
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[…] Originally published by Around the Majors […]
If Nathan gets the team through the ninth and 10th, and they eventually take the lead, someone else has to close.
This is a point that many have been trying to make since this whole “RAWR NATHAN!” thing started.
You either have to trust somebody else to get through the innings so Nathan can finish off the save.
Or “waste” Nathan early and trust somebody else to close out the save later.
And considering nobody around here trusts ANYBODY in that bullpen except Nathan at this point, I can’t imagine anybody honestly believing that second option is viable.
Going by fan opinion, this is a one-man bullpen. That’s a sign of bigger problems than “One-Arm” (TM)
T
The problem with that thinking is that Nathan at least pitches in one of those scenarios but doesn’t even see the field in the other. You have to look at each situation seperately but there have been plenty of chances to use Nathan early. Last night had the Twins gotten into extra innings they would have had 8,9,1 coming to hit. Do you use Nathan then? I don’t know, but the guy is obviously being underused.
Also, why can’t the Twins stick with the Young, Span, Kubel OF for a couple of days? The offense has been miserable the last week and Kubel’s bat over Gomez can only help the offensive numbers.
I don’t know, but the guy is obviously being underused.
Check out:
Out of top 20 closers (going by SV), about 6 have pitched in more innings than Nathan (and one is by 0.1 innings)
They range from that 0.1 inning to 3.2 innings, and one that is about 9.2 more innings worth of work.
So if we look at that, you’re talking about Nathan appearing in roughly 3 more games than he has already.
There’s at least one game a WEEK in the past three months where Nathan was the “obvious” choice to pitch.
If the blogs had their way, Nathan would be looking at about 80 innings pitched by now.
Nathan is getting paid big bucks I don’t think a few more innings is going to destroy his arm.. that being said Gardy is correct in that other bullpen arms have to get outs..
That sounds more like a Bogus Journey than an Excellent Adventure.
Nathan is getting paid big bucks I don’t think a few more innings is going to destroy his arm..
What’s “a few more”?
Like I said, with the exception of one guy, only 5 other closers in the Top 20 have more innings pitched.
Heck, the Legendary Mariano Rivera has only thrown 3 more innings than Nathan.
You can’t get much “bigger” than Rivera.
While it would have been nice to hold the A’s to 2 runs over 9 innings, this loss is on the offense.
Where was Buscher in the 9th inning with a rightie in to face Harris? Is that not his role on this team? He mashes right handed pitching. I just don’t get the whole platooning thing to figure out who starts and then not make the move in a tie game in the 9th. And before anyone suggests defense would have been a problem, remember that Everett would have come in to play SS with Nick moving to 3rd.
That lack of a managerial move really bugged me last night.
T - wouldn’t you have liked 1 of those innings last night from Nathan? I think so…
I seriously think Crain is on the take from the White Sox. He’s personally responsible for 3 of the Twins’ last 5 losses. His ERA is incredibly deceiving. Let’s jettison this guy, and bring someone up from Rochester who actually cares, and can get the job done.
While the pitching makes for good debate, the offence is hitting like a bunch of daisies. Justin M was/is the only guy in the road trip making solid contact and driving the ball. The rest look clueless and can barely hit it out of the infield. They can be the worst collective group of hitters most of the time.
Casilla is slumping since coming back from his injury and that seems to be dragging the team down.
What a great offensive team that relies on a light hitting second baseman to ignight their offense.
Crain is lame, I blame Gardy for continuing to put that guy in knowing that he is going to throw batting practice balls!
Crain is a HUGE issue. He can’t get anyone out. I absolutely agree with Jimbo in that we need someone to replace him. Make him our long reliever. I don’t trust Boof either, but he looks like a hell of a lot better alternative than Crain. He’s KILLING us. I can’t even watch when he pitches. I fastforward my TIVO when he comes in and hope for the best. I can’t take this anymore! Get him out of there!
“T - wouldn’t you have liked 1 of those innings last night from Nathan? I think so…”
So then Crain pitches the 10th? Or the 11th? If Nathan pitches the 9th last night, Crain is going to pitch. And you would still be complaining.
Joe,
a. Three times the Twins have turned to Jesse Crain on this road trip and three times that’s led directly to a loss.
and
b. OFFENSE TO BLAME
don’t mix. I’d say that Gardy did not learn his lesson about who to pitch on the bottom of the 9th with tied score the first time (after Crain’s 1st collapse) and he used him the next day with same results. Apparently, he did not learn his lesson the second time around; how many more loses will it take for Gardy to get it? Anything wrong for using Breslow for more than a batter or 2 or bringing in Nathan in the 9th in a tied game on the road, god forbid?
Sorry, offense is not the only one to “blame”; Gardy needs his share of blame for this trip so far… the teflon should have started to wear out by now…
I don’t trust Boof either, but he looks like a hell of a lot better alternative than Crain
You don’t trust Boof or Crain. Others don’t trust Guerrier or Reyes.
Breslow isn’t exactly a reliable guy. And we’ve seen both sides of Eddie already.
Again, the ONLY guy that anybody trusts 100% is Nathan. And he can’t pitch everyday. And he ESPECIALLY can’t pitch 3 innings everyday.
If the team is going to go anywhere, regular season or beyond…it’s going to need more than ONE guy in the bullpen that you can trust in any given situation.
Like I said when everybody was clamoring for LaBraddie Hawfordado, the bullpen is in need of more than one guy if it’s going to be solidified.
Long story short, it doesn’t matter WHO Gardy would’ve put in that situation last night. If it ends in a loss that pitcher would be called out as rubbish and Gardy would’ve been called a moron for using him.
I STILL look back at the KC blown save as the perfect example. 3-run lead, 2 on in the bottom of the ninth. Here comes Nathan.
Save is blown on a fluke play…and suddenly Gardy’s an idiot for ever going to Nathan.
“So then Crain pitches the 10th? Or the 11th? If Nathan pitches the 9th last night, Crain is going to pitch. And you would still be complaining.”
think outside the box Nathan pitches the 9th and the 10th gives the Twin’s the 1 chance they never got last night to pitch Nathan with the lead(if offense scores in the top of the 10th) if the score is still tied going to the 11th then it is no different then what happened but atleast Gardy would have given the team one more chance to win
It only makes sense to put Nathan in when the game is tied and take your chances on these other pitchers later if necessary!
the game itself doesn’t matter, it is more philosophy. if it is kc or last night, you should have your best pitcher out on the mound in the high leverage situations. nathan gives us the best chance to get a win, so he should pitch.
whether or not other teams closers have pitched high innings is irrelivant as well. just because other teams mismanage their relievers the twins should as well?
the man’s era is under 1! use him.
that’s precisely why Gardy didn’t do it!! he went with his gut.. it’s the Twins’s way
How about Blackburn taking a little heat? He didn’t even get out of the sixth inning. Granted he only gave up 2 runs, but he was facing a terrible offensive team. The last two innings he threw a bunch of meat balls that he was lucky to have stay in the park. The starters need to finish hitters off and get through their innings quicker so we don’t have to get 3-4 innings out of our crappy bullpen EVERY SINGLE NIGHT!
T
You reasoning that because other teams closers don’t haven’t pitched many more innings than Nathan is ridiculous. It’s like the old saying, if the other teams closer jumped off a bridge does the Twins closer? Just because the other teams are doing it doesn’t mean the Twins need to follow. I think you could argue successfully that if Nathan pitches 10 more innings this year, in the right situations, the Twins could have at least 5 more wins. Like I said before you can’t expect Nathan to pitch every day but rather than have him come in with a 3 run lead in the 9th I’d rather see him come in with a one run lead in the eigth. Yes this can come back to bite you because someone else has to pitch the ninth but personally I’m okay with that. Nathan gets paid to get the other teams best hitters out when it matters and the Twins aren’t completely using him in that role.
“think outside the box Nathan pitches the 9th and the 10th gives the Twin’s the 1 chance they never got last night to pitch Nathan with the lead(if offense scores in the top of the 10th) if the score is still tied going to the 11th then it is no different then what happened but atleast Gardy would have given the team one more chance to win”
Hence the reason I said “Or the 11th”.
But if you throw Nathan last night for two innings then he is pretty much unavailable for tonight. And then people will complain.
And why is Crain getting all the blame anyway? Breslow put the guy on first.
if the score is still tied going to the 11th then it is no different then what happened but atleast Gardy would have given the team one more chance to win
The difference is, if we still lose the game in the 11TH, we also lose Nathan for today. I am not saying it is the wrong decision to use Nathan, I am just saying there is a difference.
[…] C. blogged in the wee hours about Gardy’s usual lack of flexibility in using Joe Nathan — and I understand the tie-game/ninth-inning/home-road thing. But it felt like last night was […]
Offense is to blame.
I know St. Joe seems to be off limits, but is anybody else getting tired of watching a 6′5″, 220 lb. guy batting number 3 in the order watching first-pitch thigh high fast balls go by for strikes?
I know his average is high, but he has to start driving in some runs for this team to win.
“And why is Crain getting all the blame anyway? Breslow put the guy on first.”
Because Crain is considered the high leverage guy and, as Joe said, he has failed in several consecutive outings. As for Breslow, I can’t blame a guy for putting a runner on. Even the great Joe Nathan puts runners on base.
I don’t blame Gardy for not using Nathan in that situation, but I do agree with whoever said it might have been better to let Breslow try to get through the inning, especially given Crain’s struggles.
“I know St. Joe seems to be off limits, but is anybody else getting tired of watching a 6′5″, 220 lb. guy batting number 3 in the order watching first-pitch thigh high fast balls go by for strikes?
I know his average is high, but he has to start driving in some runs for this team to win.”
For Joe to start driving in runs, players need to start getting on base in front of him.
Joe Mauer is hitting .343/.458/.407 with runners in scoring position this year. He is probably the last person in the lineup to get on for not scoring runs.
glass half full view - atleast the team is surprisingly competitive enough that we can debate these decisions because it still matters.. for KC,drunken sailors, O’s etc.. the fan base has conceded months ago..
Joe Mauer is hitting .343/.458/.407 with runners in scoring position this year. He is probably the last person in the lineup to get on for not scoring runs.
He took his walk last night after a double steal. That helped the OBP. Didn’t get any runs home, but it helped the OBP.
Gardy - you need to stop bringing this bum in. I mean really Crain is the first and last option last night in the ninth? I’m sick of Gardy and his BULL-pen mis-management, in fact his overall approach to pitching.
Twins should never lose a game in the 9th-10th innning without their best reliever throwing a pitch. Home or Away! End of Story
I said it a few weeks ago and the feeling is all but cemented now: Watching Gardy trotting Crain out to the mound in a close game is giving me the same sickening feeling as when he used to trot out Rincon.
thrylos nailed it - Gardy keeps making the same mistake over and over and over and yet each time he thinks “This time will be different!” But Crain has given him no reason to think that. Nice gut thinking there Gardo.
With Crain’s latest performances it is now my opinion that he is the #1 pitching candidate to be left off of the playoff roster.
Let’s see, you trade away the best closer in the league in the minors for Everyone Hits Eddie Guardado, you make no moves when Neshek goes down, you sit on the money you saved when Tori and Johann left and don’t go after a reliever, you make no attempt to even try Korecky again but stick with bums like Bass, Rincon and Crain, you don’t even give guys like Humber a shot in the bigs. Gee, is it any wonder why we have such a horrible bullpen?
Granted Gardy is a nice guy and all touchy-feely with his players but if you look at his playoff numbers and record in big games, it is dreadful. Why is he like teflon? Any gripes against his play calling and mismanagement of the bullpen is treated like heresy around here. Let’s face it, he has cost the Twins enough games this year to keep us from going to the playoffs. He is no TK. He has benefited from the Twins being in a usually crummy division with only one really good team a year to beat. If he manages in the AL East his record would rival the Orioles and Blue Jays.
Gardy’s an excellent manager, especially in handling the psyche of his players, which is why he continually challenges them to fulfill the role the team needs them to fulfill.
In a tie ballgame, especially on the road, Gardy doesn’t want to burn the one guy he has on the staff that can lock-down a one-run win the following night.
How long do you really think Nathan would last if Gardy used him to pitch two innings in a tie ballgame (which, if we don’t score we won’t win anyway) and then try to close out a one-run win the following night?
Gardy’s not about to throw away a potential win tomorrow for the possibility that sleeping bats might awaken tonight. Relief pitchers have roles to play and if they don’t fulfill their role the team loses - end of story. Nathan is the CLOSER. He cannot also be the bridge because his arm will not last.
It’s time to accept that if players don’t do their job (and if Sept call-ups
like Korecky, Mulvey etc don’t help), it’ll have been an exciting and promising yet unfulfilling year.
“He took his walk last night after a double steal. That helped the OBP. Didn’t get any runs home, but it helped the OBP.”
You are actually criticizing Joe Mauer for loading the bases in front of a former MVP?
You reasoning that because other teams closers don’t haven’t pitched many more innings than Nathan is ridiculous.
The argument is that Gardy is a moron and underuses a big money closer.
My retort is that there isn’t a closer in the league that pitches to the extent people here feel is neccesary. Including the Legendary Mariano Rivera, and the potential record setting Francisco Rodriquez.
Pete, its pointless to debate with these yahoos about Joe Mauer’s VALUE to the team… they dont understand what “getting on base” means, they only want to see RUNS and RBIs!! They fail to realize that he’s the best offensive catcher in all of baseball and probably top 10 in just offensive players in baseball.
Lakeseven: the argument of not using Nathan because you are “saving” him for the next day is lunacy… But I guess you can predict the future and that tonight will be a 1-run lead in the 9th that he’ll have to protect and SAVE.
Get real people.
You are actually criticizing Joe Mauer for loading the bases in front of a former MVP?
Like I’ve said. Find anything and everything to be pissed off about.
You want a legitimate complaint. How about the Mighty MVP coming up with the bases loaded and driving in all of one run with a crushing sacfly?
Lakeseven: the argument of not using Nathan because you are “saving” him for the next day is lunacy…
How about the argument that if Nathan does his job in a tie game on the road, it still comes down to one of the other 5 or 6 yahoos that nobody trusts in the bullpen to get the ACTUAL save later?
Do you trust Reyes with a one-run lead? Do you trust Crain? Breslow? Boof? Guradado? Guerrier?
With the confidence level this fanbase currently has in its bullpen…the only thing you’re doing by bringing in Nathan in a tie game on the road is delaying the inevitable.
One of those other guys HAS to step up. The Twins aren’t going to go anywhere this season or beyond if they can’t count on the other 80% of the bullpen to do anything beyond mop up work.
Of course, leave it to this place to put the blame on a 3-2 loss on the pitching.
Not like the Twins blew chances with runners on or anything…
It shows that a good fastball doesn’t neccessarily get people out! You have to have movement and change speeds and location. Jesse’s fastball is as straight as a board!
I can’t believe I’m saying this, but yes, Crain has got to be benched and SOMEBODY else from Rochester has to step up and take over his spot in the pen. He has given up game winning runs in 3 of his last 4 outings. Still, you really can’t blame the pitching staff as a whole for the 5 losses on this road trip. They have scored more than 3 runs in only one of the five losses (only 2 runs in 3 of the losses) and they have hurt themselves defensively in 3 of the losses. I think the youth and inexperience is finally starting to catch up to this team.
“You reasoning that because other teams closers don’t haven’t pitched many more innings than Nathan is ridiculous.”
The real question is:
WHY don’t the other MLB teams pitch their closer many more innings than Nathan?
The real answer is:
Because they ALL realize that to overuse your closer early in the season is to render him ineffective later in the season or in the playoffs - and maybe endanger his arm.
Just because ALL the MLB teams seem to follow those guidelines, would indicate to me that the professionals believe those guidelines are important.
So although thirty blog posting experts can’t be wrong, they apparently CAN be easily ignored by the clueless professionals.
Also, this offense has been in a snooze fest the last 5-6 games. We all have to remember that the Twins had NO CHANCE of maintaining their above .300 average with men in scoring position; they have been hitting EXCEPTIONALLY well to date. That, along with the lack of good middle relief performances, will be the Twins downfall. I will say it again: I don’t care what others think, you DO need a legit power threat in the lineup (Morneau is, but he has only 20 for being the top threat; many teams have multiple 20 homer guys that AREN’T the main power source), which the Twins didn’t go out and get. It takes 3 singles to score one run, when it only takes one big swing to score one, let alone, with men on!!!!!!!!!!!! The offense has to have many hitters “feeling it” and to come through in succession for that to happen. COME ON!!!!!!
T, because you play win the game at that moment… if you dont keep the game tied, it’s over, there wont be an opportunity to save the game later by anyone.
I dont get the thing about worrying what you’ll do if the game remains tied and if we go up by 1 run and then oh no, who’s going to SAVE the game now? Give me a break, you can’t bring in a reliever with a 1 run lead and have him get 3 outs, the chances and percentages are heavily in your favor to secure the win, no matter who’s on the mound.
You can’t play for tomorrow when the game going on is more important.
If you manage like that in the playoffs, you’ll be out pretty quick. Just the like the Twins vs the A’s 2 years ago.
Stats are for losers. One of you dip-wads compared Rivera to Nathan, for innings pitched sake. Sure, Rivera sometimes has pitched 1/3 inning to get a save, but will also come out with the bases loaded and nobody out in the eighth inning. Before you start posting worthless information, “T”, educate yourself.
I know St. Joe seems to be off limits, but is anybody else getting tired of watching a 6′5″, 220 lb. guy batting number 3 in the order watching first-pitch thigh high fast balls go by for strikes?
Actually, no. I wish young, gomez, kubel, ruiz, and even morneau could learn to take the first pitch as well. The more pitches a hitter sees per plate appearance the more success the hitter has. Additionally, it forces the pitcher to get the hitter out, instead of the hitter giving up the at-bat with a one pitch ground out. It also forces a pither’s pitch count up and may chase a good pitcher sooner. A quality at-bat is a patient at-bat.
Sane, I think what most people feel is that Nathan (and other closers) are used at the wrong times, not that they should necessarily be used MORE. Nathan could have been brought in last night earlier to try to keep the game tied (as that was the most crucial part of the game), and after that, you go to others in the bullpen… as I said above, you can’t expect to be saving guys for situations that may never occur. Especially for situations you think MAY happen the following day.
I thought they should have walked Brown right off the bat to set up a double play. Brown leads the A’s in runs batted in. I know Crain is not the best ground ball pitcher, but maybe he would have had a few more bullets left in his chamber to face Suzuki. I wish Anderson could come up with some type of new grip that would give Crain some movement on his heater. If the Twins don’t make it, it all falls on the bullpen but the offense needs to settle down as well. Swinging at too many first pitches once again and going out of the strike zone to chase bad pitches. Casilla needs to get back into the grove. Hopefully his hand is OK.
There is no reason Nathan can’t pitch the 8th and 9th. Goose Gossage just made the HOF and only 59 of his 300 plus saves were 1 inning saves. He had some 4-5 inning saves mixed in. Teams treat closers like Va Jay Jay’s nowadays. They end up with inflated stats as a result.
MarkW,
“I think what most people feel is that Nathan (and other closers) are used at the wrong times, not that they should necessarily be used MORE.”
And I can agree with that.
His innings could be distributed more creatively into high leverage situations.
But EVERY TIME the other relievers fail, the “Nathan should have been pitching” argument is not automatically applicable.
Casilla has been struggling and pressing probably a bit at the plate… I think he should actually move down in the order until he gets it together. I know this is ridiculous to suggest, but IMO, the order may be best served if doing this:
Span CF
Mauer C
Morneau 1B
Kubel RF
Ruiz DH
Young LF
Casilla 2B
Buscher/Harris 3B
Punto SS
but I think that my give Gardy a stroke.
Sane, couldn’t agree more, it’s not ALWAYS the case that because Nathan wasn’t used, we lost. He has blown 4 saves this year, so he’s not invincible.. he’s just the best we have, and one of the best in the game. So I do wish he would be used more in those kind of situations…
Mike, I think a big part is money… players agents, players union, all those things have changed the way players are used and how the game is played today. Starters would throw the day after they already pitched, they’d start like 50+ games in a season. Just dont see that anymore and probably never will again.
Correction:
**but I think that MAY give Gardy a stroke
Also, to say “Rochester Pitcher-X can’t do any worse!” is crap.
He CAN and very likely WILL do worse.
Crain just plain sucks…It’s August…crunch time….and his pitches keep getting crushed. It has been a while since I have seen 1 player never ever pick up the rest of his team.
Snnnnooooooore, snnooooooooore. These games lately are brutal to stay awake through……..
since when did the twins become so feeble? …this is pathetic, every morning when i log onto the tribune here and read about how they blew another close game, its about all i can take, but i guess this is standard twins baseball of this decade, good enough to at least compete, but always deficient, and scared when the games get a little bigger (apart from when we did make the ALCS & in 2006 chasing the tigers) other than that, if we were getting into the post season, we generally had a semi comfortable lead in the division…..and i have never had a bad word to say about gardenhire & rick anderson, but at some point, in situations like this reflect on the coaching, so make it better and save this road trip…and the season
It looks like everyone has said there piece. My comment concerns Gardenhire. He was promoted from(From our AAA affiliate)and signed for alot less money than alot of his counterparts.what he got is a small Mkt team with a very strict budget, does not invest in class A FA’s, does go after FA’s in the B&C class players that can’t even be traded(Lamb, Hernandez) and can’t seem to make trades when this team needs help. And covet’s certain Minor league players so much as not to trade any of them. Now some of us think Gardenhire is not doing his job well with the players he has(crain). Everyone has their opinion. My question to all of you is, does anyone think a Mgr. like Joe Torrie, Terry Francona or any other mananger could do a better job than Gardenhire is doing now under the above mentioned criteria….
It is now obvious that Jesse Crain has never recovered from his surgery (mentally and physically). Like Rincon, he needs to be moved and bring up one or two top minor leaguers - this will do two things: 1. Possibly fill a void in the bullpen and 2. Build for the near future. Crain, Young, (possibly) Kubel can be dealt this winter. Gomez needs to work on basics both offensively (hitting and base running) as well as defense.
Off with his head!!! Don’t let the door hit you on the way out Crain. Get rid of Crain and Boof and pick up one more MR to replace the 2 worthless players. Any idea when Neshek is coming back.
I might go a step further with the lineup above, and this goes against all that Gardy believes in, but maybe Punto should sit one out… and just see how this would go:
Span CF
Mauer C
Morneau 1B
Kubel RF
Ruiz DH
Young RF
Buscher 3B
Harris SS
Casilla 2B
Speed at top and bottom, 4-8 are your best power threats… like he said today, we need offense. leaves a thin bench, but hopefully you dont need them.
Again, I’m probably just dreaming…
Since we don’t trade players within the division now there may be a chance we could now get Casey blake from the Dodgers.
TC, Mauer is good enough to get into an 0-2 hole and still be productive. But I agree that he should hammer a lot of first pitch strikes that are grooved right down the heart of the plate.
As far as Gomez and Young…don’t get me started. I’m almost convinced you can’t teach discipline to some players. Neither one has ever seen a pitch he didn’t like.
And where’s Joe Vavra? Can’t he show Gomez how to shorten his swing? Trying to hit the ball 600 feet while almost coming out of your shoes is ridiculous.
this one’s really on the offense, but gardy’s got to get nathan in there in the 9th to give his offense at least one more shot. I’m a big gardy fan, but he’s got to put his team in the best position to win and he didn’t. he’s got to “get after it!” and he didn’t. nathan will have plenty of time to rest starting sept. 29 if the twins miss the playoffs by a game. who know, maybe the offense puts up 3-4 runs in the 10th and it doesn’t matter who gets the last three outs against a weak hitting A’s team.
Crain was given a fee pass in Spring Training. He didn’t pitch well coming off of am injury-shortened season, yet there seemed to be no debate whether he deserved a role on the team. His arm seems to be fine. I think his head needed a chance to get back up to speed. Now definately.
Nathan is among the best in the league at doing his job. ‘Making the big bucks’ should not determine whether his role is expanded or not. ‘A few more innings’ is how many innings? I agree with Gardenhire, Crain and others have to do their jobs. In the big picture, the pitching has been pretty darn good. Just 2-3 runs a game. It’s the lack of hitting against mediocre pitching that is making the Twins’pitching look bad. I still say that Mauer is a bigger issue than Morneau. And, Casilla has to get it going if he’s going to stay towards the top of the order. Everything is magnified when you’re not scoring runs.
forgot to add a great example from yesterday re: using your best reliever in a tight game in a pennant race. yanks rivera got the last four outs in a tie game and guess what, yanks won it in the ninth. jenks and the sox successfully won in a similar situation last week. girardi and guillen are “getting after it!”
Our bullpen is BRUTAL!!!!!! Breslows a chicks, Crains a midget,seriously we need to bring up some NEW!!! ARMS for a different look to opposing batters. We have some live ones down on the farm. Lets face it our kid starters basically can go 6 innings there getting tired from the long season sometimes we get lucky and get 7 innings. Remember there kids so why not bring up some kids. Thanks for making me brake my remote last night CRAIN!!!!!!!!!!! Your killing me learn how to make an adjustment Geezzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
nobody wants to admit it (and i refused to admit it until today), but letting hunter walk was a big, big mistake. yes, his contract would have been a burden in 2010 or 2011 (that was my reasoning all along for suggesting that they not re-sign him), but this year and next year he would provide the leadership and protection in the order for morneau that he so badly needs. additionally, there are no true “shake things up” leaders on this team because their two best players (mauer/morneau) aren’t that type of player. sometimes you don’t just pay for stats, you pay for intangibles. torii brought both. and it’s almost impossible to argue that the twins don’t miss him now.
Hunter wanted the money (and he got it). There is no way the Twins would have (or should have) matched the 90/5 contract LAA gave him. I won’t get into the whole leadership issue other than to say I think you are giving him more credit than he deserves.
“forgot to add a great example from yesterday re: using your best reliever in a tight game in a pennant race. yanks rivera got the last four outs in a tie game and guess what, yanks won it in the ninth. jenks and the sox successfully won in a similar situation last week. girardi and guillen are “getting after it!””
Great examples, but not for the point you are trying to make. Both of those instances happened at the home team’s park. So, the managers used their closers in the 9th inning, because they knew there would be no save opportunity for Rivera or Jenks later on. I can only imagine that had Girardi and Guillen been managing the Twins last night that Joe Nathan would NOT have been in the game in the 9th inning.
Nathan’s arm will be well-rested for his golf swings in October.
“and protection in the order for morneau that he so badly needs.”
Torii Hunter - 114 OPS+
Jason Kubel - 113 OPS+
Crain isn’t close to being as effective as he was when he first came into the league. He was better throwing the two-seam fastball that had sinking action, producing a lot of ground balls. Now, he throws harder, but it’s straight as an arrow and up in the strike zone. Richie Anderson should get him back to throwing the two-seamer with more movement. Right now, he’s just a mid-90s throwing BP pitcher with NO command.
Our bullpen is BRUTAL!!!!!! Breslows a chicks, Crains a midget,seriously we need to bring up some NEW!!! ARMS for a different look to opposing batters.
I know! If they were to only sign a bearded lady and a Ukranian power lifter, our ‘pen would be so money.
MarkW
The probability that tonight’s game will be close and that Nathan will be needed to come in and yes, SAVE, the game is quite high actually. Based on his 40 save opportunities this season, it’s about a 30% chance by the numbers. The probability that he would succeed decreases markedly if he would have had to pitch two innings last night, which is why Gardy tries not to use pitchers on successive nights, especially after throwing two innings.
It looks like the young players are feeling the pressure. I think there trying to hard and not having fun like normal. It seems like there pressing to hard! We have only a very few players that other teams would even want!
You would think the owners after getting a new stadium would spend a couple of bucks. I didn!t think the Twins would win fifty games this year!! but they have surprised me! You realy have to remember they are a very young team!!! And are in a very high pressure race! So all we can do is hold our BREATH!!!! GO TWINS!!
How you can take Gomez out of Center field. Span does much better in RF. And you need GOmez to cover for Young.
Lets not forget that Crain and Perkins are both coming off shoulder surgury! They’ve both been really effective considering. This teams big weakness is the bullpen and it may prevent us from making the play-offs, but even if we edge out the sucks we need to consider who’s going to be in the post season rotation. We need a dominating force besides nathan that we can call on in the 8th inning. Humber has been really nasty towards the end of the AAA season maybe he’s got the kind of stuff we need. We need Rincon on juice type of performances out of someone in the 8th inning because guerrier, crain, reyes, guardado don’t cut the mustard.
Crain had one good season then showed a tendency to fold in pressure situations both before and after surgery. He’s a head case, like Ron Davis, LaTroy Hawkins, Mark Portugal, etc., before him. I’d rather see Breslow, Korecky, Boof or somebody else take the innings Crain is getting. They may not come through every time, but they wouldn’t blow as many games.
Just for the record, since Crain first became a constant in the bullpen, I have never liked him. Someone pull his stats and figure out how many losses and blown saves and how many times he has given up the lead in his career. It has to be an astounding number. It seems like he gives up a run every time he comes into a game to pitch.
As the movie quote goes, “the code is more like guidelines” (I think that’s how it goes anyway).
That’s fine Gardy to have a rule but that doesn’t mean every single stinking time you stick to it. You did it with Nathan for 3 innings in the playoffs at New York a few years back. And there is no law that says your team can’t actually go ahead an score a stinking run the next half inning so Nathan can comeback in to get the final three outs. Keep planning for 15 inning game and eventually the other team will beat you to it because, this just in, your bullpen (or enitre staff for that matter) isn’t good enough to shut the other team out every night.
And if it happens that you lose a game once in awhile because Joe was used up and someone else had to try to get the save fans and the team would probably understand it more because at least you tried. Not doing anything is still making a choice to sit on your butt.
And where the hell is the bunt from Alexi & Gomez? They can’t hit now so how about playing some of this small ball on the road that you profess to be a proponent of? I thought THAT was a rule to follow as well.
I would have to agree that Crain and possibly Young have to go in the off-season… we can possibly get some bullpen help in a trade. Here is my thoughts on Young leaving… Span could try Left field next year.. with Gomez manning center(Kubel to spell him) and Cuddy in right. I know that many of you are not high on Cuddy, but wouldn’t 20 HR’s and 80 RBI’s look good about now??
Crain seems to be going through what Guerrier went through a couple of weeks ago. I don’t think he can come out of it though.. I guess we can only hope at this point..
And where’s Joe Vavra? Can’t he show Gomez how to shorten his swing? Trying to hit the ball 600 feet while almost coming out of your shoes is ridiculous.
Anyone else annoyed that he sat and admired his (obviously) foul ball for a few seconds?
At home you can wait to bring in Nathan in a “save” situation, but on the road you have to bring him in when the game is tied. Mr. Gardy, if the other team scores, you lose:) Please use our best and highest paid pitcher more often!
I’m sure that the Twins will start hitting. I mean, these boards said all the experts were idiots for saying the Twins couldn’t sustain their BARISP.
As for Nathan, I don’t understand the obsession with saving him for a situation that may never materialize. If you blow it in the 8th or 9th, then you won’t even see him pitch later in the game. I was ripped mercilessly for saying he should have pitched more, because what if the Twins needed him in Sea and Oak. Well, since they’ve rarely been in a save situation, they’ve not “needed” him. That is my point exactly. Get the wins you can get, don’t wait in case you might need him.
And, don’t put words in my mouth. I’m not saying every day. I’m not saying 2 innings every time. I’m saying use him in the highest leverage situation after the 6th inning, for 3-6 outs (sometimes more, sometimes less). The save is a silly statistic. Waiting to use Nathan for a save situation, when there is a more critical situation earlier in the game is silly.
But, the issue with this team right now is hitting.
I’ve read thru a bunch of these “Use Nathan more/Don’t use him more” posts. If I were managing, I think I’d bring in Nathan now and then– not real often– late in tie games, and he’d end up pitching a few more innings on the year than he probably will this year.
However, I totally agree with “T” and the others who have very realistically said that you need much more than just Nathan as a reliable arm in the pen. And there’s no scenario you can come up with where Nathan can pitch 3 innings or even 2 whole innings and still be available in a save situation the next day; or any way that Nathan can pitch 80 or more innings on the season (with the many warm-up tosses that involves) and still perform as possibly the best save-situation closer in MLB.
Even more so, it’s also very true that when you’re only scoring 2 runs, YOU’RE USUALLY GOING TO LOSE those games. The offense is improved this year– thank goodness– but still has some bad slumps. You win a game now and then where you only score 2 runs or even just 1 run, but acting like it’s mostly your pitchers’ fault when you lose MOST of those games (or the manager’s fault for somehow misusing the pitchers) is just not correct. That’s primarily the fault of the offense.
And for the people ripping Gardy– I know some people make a major hobby out of just routinely saying “Fire (insert name of manager or head coach here)!!” for every local sports team. If Piniella or Torre or any other current manager were here instead of Gardy, lots of the same people would be saying “Fire him!”. The fact is, whatever else happens the rest of the year, Gardy will get a fair number of votes for Manger of the Year, and probably deserves them. Remember, folks, this team was picked for LAST place by many prognosticators, and I doubt anyone either nationally or locally thought they had a realistic chance of finishing better than 3rd at very best.
Another point is that the facts of baseball’s economics come into play as far as using a closer in different situations. Some people say the “save” is a dumb stat and the Twins should ignore it when deciding how to use Nathan. Well, sorry, but these guys get paid largely based on “dumb stats” like those– some pitchers with fairly poor ERA’s or WHIP figures have gotten big contracts anyway based on saves. If Nathan had been told in advance “By the way, we’re not going to worry about using you mainly in save situations anymore, but just make sure to get you into close games as needed”, he very likely would have declined to sign the contract extension. And if we now used him that way, after he’s been either traded, retired, or left after the current contract expired, you can bet that no high-profile closer would want to come pitch in MN if he knew he’d be employed with no particular emphasis on being used mainly in save situations.
About time Gardy calls someone out. I’m sick of his generic loss statements “well we know they’re a fighting team and yadda yadda and they still have heart left blah blah blah.” Yes, every team has talent, but the Twins aren’t 1 1/2 games out in late August for nothing. Take pride in your team and start walking around like you should actually beat someone. This team could be 6-2 on the road trip so far if you could just eliminate the poor play of a few players.
caulfield2
“Because Buscher was 3 for 30 against LHP before that one success, so you go with the averages and best likelihood of success. Harris also has more power (especially doubles/gap power) than Buscher. You don’t bunt with one out on the road in a tie game. You’re expected to be a major leaguer hitter, and you need to get the job done, not leave it for the next guy. If you have no confidence in Gomez, he should be in Rochester. If he’s bunting for a hit and happens to get the runner to 2nd, that’s another matter altogether”.
I guess you missed the point. Gardy already professed not to play by that book the day before which is why he went with Buscher against a lefty then. And if your “playing the percentages” as you write then if Gomez is in the game the “percentages are not in his favor to get a hit in that situation so bunting (sacrafice) IS a higher percentage play with one of your best hitters (Span) now given a chance to drive in the run. You don’t need a better “gap” hitter if the runner is standing on 2nd or 3rd. A single will get him home. And I say this with respect but check the game log. 3rd inning (scoreless) Punto leads off with a walk. Now your worst and coldest hitter comes up with no one out and grounds into a double play. That’s where you bunt. It’s the style they profess to play so it’s not just me putting my preferences on them. Then in the 7th, trailing by a run mind you, a leadoff double by Delmon Young. Harris has to be bunting by “Gardy’s” book instead he pops out and does not advance the runner. Thankfully Punto grounds a hit thru the middle to plate the run but again THAT has to be a time to get the runner to 3rd and give yourself at least a chance at a Sac Fly. These are things Gardy does at other times but then just choses not to at others and the numbers don’t seem to be his reasoning. The “you don’t bunt on the road in a tie game” logic doesn’t make sense. Not as a theory but with this specific team. They don’t hit home runs and are not a power team and Gardy has at other times done this very strategy. he did it at Yankee stadium this year in THE 1ST INNING. caulfield2, I’m not questioning your logic or numbers I say these are things he should be doing based on his (Gardy)history and that of his team. Hopefully we agree on this, Go Twins!
FIRE GARDY AND VAVRA?????
Got to love the stupidity of some people. Fire Vavra? I guess being 5th in the AL in runs scored isn’t enough for a team with minimal homerun power. All Gardy has done is lead a group of overachievers that compete for a division title every year!! Especially this year with half of our starters playing AAA to start the year and having one of the youngest pitching staffs in the bigs. You were probably cursing Gardy out for bringing Buscher in to pinch hit against a lefty the other night until he singled in a couple of runs.
All this discussion about Twins pitching. The real issue is the lack of hitting. Not many teams can win scoring 2-3 runs per game. There is no one in the line up that opposing pitchers are afraid of. The twins pitchers are doing their job. Twins hitters are so concerned about going deep in the count that they often look at the best pitch, rather than swinging away. Until the Twins get a real power hitter they will not get back in to the playoffs.
i love shane t’s nice tight ass!
You gotta realize that FIRE VAVRA AND GARDY goes way overboard. I personally do not like Gardy much at all, but “FIRE” shoots anyone down as a mere peasant if they don’t agree with him.
And then there’s Mike’s comment, which is true, the Twins bad pitching is overshadowing a lack of hitting. Both are really hurting the team, and coming at a terrible time on this road trip. I was hoping Morneau’s speech would help and motivate, but not yet I guess.
How come Gardy’s what-feels-like-a-lifetime contract is in no way affected by the team’s performance? The fans seem grateful that the boys are moderately entertaining and close is just as good as winning. Bah!
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm gay men are hot! i want to stick my junk in there trunk
Let me get this straight…T doesn’t want to use Nathan late in a tie game becuase “nobody trusts any of the other relievers anyway.”
That’s sort of the point, T. Nobody trusts the other relievers.
That’s why, if you have to use them, they’d rather see those ‘non trusted’ relievers used in a situation where if they give up a run, it’s AFTER the Twins have used the one ‘trusted’ reliever.
I’m a bit confused as to why you seem to be arguing that it’s better to put the other relievers in first, thereby assuring that if they give up a run, the game is over and Nathan doesn’t ever fire a pitch.
I’m also laughing about your arguement that there’s more problems in the Twins pen than just Nathan’s usage.
While true, haven’t you been telling us for months–over hundreds of posts–that there’s no need for the front office to do anything to improve the bullpen?
Thanks Nathan…cost us another game, JERK
