From Santana trade rumors to prominent postseason roles
Posted on October 6th, 2008 – 10:48 AMBy Joe Christensen
We spent a lot of time last winter writing about Boston’s alleged interest in Johan Santana. It’s interesting now watching some of the players the Red Sox allegedly made available in those alleged trade talks taking on vital roles in the postseason.
Remember, the Twins could have allegedly had Jon Lester or Jacoby Ellsbury — but not both — with Justin Masterson and Jed Lowrie in either deal as alleged throw-ins.
Looking back, I think it was convenient for the Twins and Red Sox to keep those rumors afloat, since most everyone expected Hank Steinbrenner’s Yankees to eventually make the superior offer.
Right now, Lester for Santana looks like a pretty good trade straight up. As Buster Olney notes today, Lester has a 1.71 ERA in his past seven starts and is 11-1 with a 2.49 ERA this year at Fenway Park, heading into his Game 4 start tonight.
Ellsbury is a nice player, too, though I think the Twins did fine to get Carlos Gomez. Ellsbury has considerably more polish and plate discipline, but Gomez is two years younger and should hit for more power with time.
After being told by scouts that Lowrie wasn’t good enough defensively to be an everyday shortstop in the big leagues, I’ve watched with great respect as he’s overcome that label, filling in admirably for injured shortstop Julio Lugo. A switch-hitter, Lowrie also managed 46 RBI in half a season.
Finally, there’s Masterson, who has emerged as Boston’s primary setup man in front of closer Jonathan Papelbon. Masterson, 23, is 6-foot-6 and throws a hard sinker. After using him for a handful of starts, the Red Sox sent him back to the minors to groom him as a setup guy.
That sure looks like a smart move now. You wonder if the Twins would have been better off doing this with Nick Blackburn this year after Pat Neshek got injured. Like Masterson, Blackburn has the stuff to handle the eighth inning, though the way Blackburn pitched as a starter in Game 163 leaves the Twins with no regrets.
Anyway, this Red Sox/Angels series has been terrific, and I was thrilled to see the Angels extend it to Game 4. We’ll see if Lester, Ellsbury, Lowrie and Masterson can finish the job tonight.
131 Responses to "From Santana trade rumors to prominent postseason roles"
Great Stuff, i think its easy to say now it would have been nice to have Either elsbury or Lester, but i think in a few years the move for Go-Go will have definatly been worth it!
And don’t forget about Humber. It’s possible that he will become a member of the Twins pitching staff in 2009 (most likely due to injuries to the current staff). Personally, I’m just glad Santana is in the National League.
whats not pointed out is we got a top pitching prospect also in guerra and 2 guys almost in the majors in mulvey and humber.
guerra might have had a bad year but hes only 19. hes also got potential to be a 1-2 starter…
honestly… we might have lost a tiny bit by not trading him to boston.. and I mean not much at all, but its worth it cause you dont have to see santana face us at all
As good as those trades look…we still have a while to see how what we got turns out. I still think we got a pretty darn good deal. Plus Santana is in the other league, which is a huge plus.
[…] Around the Majors – […]
Another thing is consideration, is that the Twins with the Santana trade got players with a total of 23 years under club control (Gomez 5, the others 6) of which 14 are at the league minimum. In a probable Lester/Crisp/Lowrie trade, the return would have been 12 years under club control of which only 4 at league minimum…
OK I’m really getting tired of the bullcrap with the names/emails. Would be nice if the Strib could fix that bug.
Trying once more (third time) to post this…
Even if you’re going to look back with 20-20 hindsight and argue the Sox package would have been better (and you wouldn’t mind having Johan in the AL), you also have to look at how you’d feel if Smith had taken the Yankees’ best offer. I believe it was Hughes OR Kennedy (but not both), Melky Cabrera and a low prospect or two that Hank was so offended the Twins wouldn’t accept. Yeah… that woulda worked out great. All three of those winners will probably be throw-ins this offseason as Cashman tries to salvage that wreck in NY.
So is this all STILL allegedly? I know the big thing during the Twins/Sox talk was that there was never any certainty that the Sox were going to offer anything.
Or if they did, that they’d actually attempt to sign Santana within the deadline.
At the time I liked the Yankee deal. Early to mid season I liked the Mets trade. Finally now that I look at the end of the year stats the Red Sox deal was the best
In order of best to worst trades for Santana
1. Best deal Red Sox
2. Second best deal Mets (which we took)
3. Worst of the bunch Yankees
You can’t pass judgement now whether the Twins made the best move. Boston was offering young, but polished MLB ready players in exchange for a Cy Young caliber pitcher. The Mets offered young, unpolished players not ready for the MLB. Even though Gomez played fairly well, I would argue that he is not yet ready for the big leagues. His raw talent got him by but many of his skills are at a AA level. Putting him in the lineup has probably stunted his growth. Span should have won the job with a more polished Gomez coming up later in the season.
Either way, I still like what the Twins got in the deal. Humber is a #5 starter or long reliever almost already, Mulvey could be middle relief someday, and they have a very young guy in Guerra that could develop into a middle of the order guy, not to mention Gomez who could be an All-Star someday with an improved plate approach.
It’s always easier to figure this things out a year later but right now, the Twins could really look good with Lester, Masterson and Lowrie.
Span in center, Cuddyer in right and Young in left so that centerfielder they coveted wasn’t needed.
Also, if I remember right, Coco Crisp was supposed to be in that deal too.
But Carlos Gomez sure was fun to watch this year and I think he is a future all star.
Tim at mlbtraderumors.com has his “Offseason Outlook” column up for the Twins this morning. He seriously miscalculates the available money for payroll and that limits the options he’s willing to project, I think. That makes it disappointing, but the comments may prove more interesting.
The Nation makes me sick so i am actually happy to have johan in the NL. I just wish it were the Dodgers that got him
I still would take Jacoby over Gomez any day. I can see Jacoby around 10 years as a consistent, solid contributor if not possibly a superstar some day. Too early to tell on Go-Go, but I could see him flash in the pan and be out of professional baseball in a few years. He’s young but I just don’t see that he has the hand-eye coordination or plate discipline to be better than a .250 hitter = 4th outfielder/pinch runner to me. Not sure he’ll ever hit the ball often enough to become a home run hitter either…
I would move Span to Center and see if/where Gomez fits in next year - but he’s definitely the odd man out. Also, platoon Delomon/Kubel.
If that doesn’t work - then trade either Gomez or Delmon for highest bidder. No one will want Cuddy because of ability and/or contract. Work with what you can to get a power hitting 3rd baseman (i.e. Beltre).
I’d have taken that Red Sox deal over the Mets deal any day. But I have a hard time believing it was true and would have really been all that was involved. And there is some value to trading Santana to the NL, so that the Twins didn’t have to face him. Don’t forget that.
Trade musings… Blackburn or Perkins for Brandon League as 8th inning set up guy? Mijares, Crain, etc may be good in that role next year, but I would say Neshek recovering is 50-50. League throws flame. We know more options right now would be better to prevent the melt downs we went through this year.
We should have won the division by 4-5 games…. ugh
I will give them Cuddy for Ellsbury
How about 1 outfielder and 1 pitcher from the group of Delmon/ Gomez/Perkins/Blackburn for Beltre plus cash? Hate to give up 2 players for a 30 year old guy, but maybe the cash would make it more palatable for the Pohlads…?
We HAVE to have more power next year.
Jim, good luck getting anything for Cuddy or Boof…
E7 OK one more trade scenario
Cuddy + Boof + a whole bunch of money for Tex from the Angels
Cuddy + Boof + LNP + a whole bunch of money for Tex from the Angels
Once we get around to being able to talk about the Twins’ roster for 2009, I’d like to see a discussion about moving Cuddyer back to third base (again). I know, I know, it didn’t work before, but with Young, Gomez and Span being so solid in the outfield, I believe it might be worth another try. I can’t imagine benching or trading any of our young studs in the OF, but we’ll need to find a spot for Cuddy’s inflated salary in the lineup. I also don’t think giving a King’s ransom for Beltre or the like would be wise either. Let’s give Cuddyer plenty of advance warning and let him earn his keep wearing a 3B glove next year.
jimmy bee, tex is a free agent at the end of this season, and we’d never be able to afford him w his agent…
try this one though (it would probably never happen, but i’m throwing it out there anyways): cuddy+boof/crain+perkins+buscher for fuentes + garrett atkins from colorado
Atkins can only hit in Coors, and I think he wears his glove on his foot
I like that one Jimmybee. It would take a whole lot of money, but in my opinion well worth it.
atkins will be better than cuddyer, beltre, or any old timer management signs to play there. plus he wouldnt cost as much, and we all know how important that is…
Cuddy + Boof + LNP + a whole bunch of money for Chase Utley from the Phillies
jimmy bee,
Do you drink during the day? Your trade scenarios are ridiculous and unrealistic.
2009 - Span to Center, Gomez to Left, Cuddy right. Delmon to Seattle for Beltre and Cash. We’re set~
here i got one for jimmy bee:
boof for a-rod, and the yanks eat all of his salary
Boof would rather eat all that cabbage imself
Cuddy + Boof + Everett + Howard Sinker’s beard + LaPanta’s Rug + The rights to use the name T on the blog and a whole bunch of money for Adrian Beltre
I can’t believe jimmy bee hasn’t proposed that yet
Good one, jay. But I heard the Dodgers will pay Manny absolutely nothing this year. Also I didn’t watch every play this season but when I did I thought I saw the best outfield the Twins ever had with Span in right and Gomez in center. I would hate to see that broken up.
I like Span in Center better myself. Span runs better routes and jumps the fences better. Left field is big and Gomez could cover it, and it would minimize the inconsitent/eratic moves he makes in center more.
In my opinion the starting centerfielder on opening day 2009 will be Carlos Gomez. I agree with moving Delmon to right and putting Span in left. But if the Twins didn’t do it mid-season after Span established himself, I don’t have any confidence they will do it next year. Cuddyer as fourth outfielder/DH.
My big question is who is going to bat second. Will they stick with Casilla or someone they bring in?
They didn’t switch Span and Go-Go mid season because Span came up as a fill in for Cuddy only. Next year it should be up for grabs, but I agree with Walter, Gardy will probably start Gomez in center. However I don’t think that’s the best position for these two. Span would really be a better option in center. Had he started there in the spring and Gomez were used in right field like he was in NY, no one would probably be suggesting him for center next year.
If Young were traded - what would your outfield rotation be?
Span in center, Gomer in left and platoon Kubel/Cuddyer at DH and outfield… Pridie off the bench
Trade Cuddy and put Gomez in CF DY in RF and Span in LF with Kubel at DH
No one will want Cuddy either because of his ability level or contract. The Twins would get something for Delmon because he’s cheap - and he’s still perceived as having potential. Not much in my opinion, so get what you can now….
Shouldn’t we try to keep these five outfielders from a first place team? I don’t see how we could upgrade much for what teams are going to offer.
yep…Delmon plus a pitcher for Adrian Beltre and cash would work. We’d trade a powerless hitter for 20-25 HR’s… a net increase of 10-15 HR’s would help this team.
Sure, E7… for what? one year? You think it makes sense to trade a 23 yo OF with potential to grow… AND a MLB-ready pitcher… for a 3B that will be a Twin for one, two years max?
Sure… why not? That way we can all bitch about how bad the team is again by 2011.
On an unrelated topic… saw this on si.com:
“A source told SI.com that Attanasio is speaking to Brewers great Paul Molitor about a possible return to the club. However, one higherup insisted that discussion is unlikely to be for the managerial job, and that Molitor is more likely instead to wind up as a coach, scout or consultant.”
My understanding was that Molitor didn’t want a role in baseball that involved traveling with the team or he’d already be the hitting coach for the Twins. That said, if he’s changed his mind, no way the Twins should let him get away. Ask him what role he WANTS and give it to him.
Oh, we’ll probably have plenty to bitch about by 2011…but yes, I’d trade Delmon for Beltre. We wait for next year too often, let’s try to make ‘09 a year to go deep into the playoffs.
We now have a core of good players under contract with only a few major holes. Third base and another power hitter are two of the biggest holes. Beltre would possibly fill both.
The Twins were under payroll this year so if you were ever going to take a chance on signing a more expensive free agent, this might be the year. Eventually you have to take a chance on a more established player than Mike Lamb - and it will cost more.
Get cash for Delmon too if you can…perhaps extend Beltre’s contract a year or with an option. After drawing 2.3 million fans and with a new stadium coming up - we should be able to afford an $80 million payroll. Plus I think our FO is enamored with Adrian…might help sell the deal to the Pohlads..?
It has been a long time. Thanks to the recession, and everything else we are now without the net at home so I don’t comment very often (limited time frame, and I can’t make this work on my cellphone yet)…
TOLD YA ALL SO!!!!
Lets just all fold our hands and pray that Bill Smith doesn’t tank this offseason like he did in 2007-2008. After the last two seasons of Terry NO BALLS and 3 strikes Ryan, and Bill Smith’s butchering of his job… The Twins players have proven the power of TEAM, and I commend them. They beat my expectations by 12 games! The GM, owner, and Gardenhire (for some of his pitching choices, and for his inability to ever take off that damn jacket) all deserve to be ripped, and if Bill Smith pulls another NO BALLS and 3 strikes kind of offseason… he should be fired, and forced to watch Pittsburgh Pirates games for the rest of eternity!
It’s good to be back!
BC Beneke
BC -
Wait. The team won 12 more games than you thought they would, and it was the players - not coaching or front office moves - that got them there? I can only imagine that had they been worse than you had expected, it would, of course, been the fault of the front office and the managerial staff and not the players.
Beltre’s price dropped from last year because a. he now is a single year rental and b. he got injured.
Young alone would be way too much for Beltre and Young should be in the close to untradeable list. The Mariners have a grand total of one major-league caliber outfielder (Ichiro) on their roster at this point. I am not sure that Cuddyer would not be desirable to them in a package including Buscher (with Beltre in the Twins there is no place for him) and a prospect.
Everything else would be way overpaying, since there is not exactly a lot of teams out there looking for 3B…
BC Didn’t John Grabow look good for the Pirates this year.
Every team (well, most of them) probably always think they are one trade or deal away from the World Series. Many organizations trade themselves into shambles. I think it works if you can land a superstar, like Milwaukee did with Sabathia. They definately do not make the playoffs without him. Still, the Brewers were much much more than one C.C. Sabathia from a World Series. How many people in NY thought the Mets were a sure-thing to win it all? Well, they didn’t. How is being saddled with Santana’s contract going to hurt them in the future. Torii Hunter may have helped the Angels get into the playoffs, but he sure isn’t looking like the final piece that will put them over the top. You can complain about the Twins “always playing for next year” but tell me this team isn’t better than the ones we had in ‘03 or ‘04 or even ‘06. Those teams only had two dependable pitchers. I think the Twins management is doing the right thing for the ballclub.
thrylos98 i agree 100 % that DY for an old Beltre is by far way to much to give up. Cuddy for him straigh up is more like it
Just an interesting piece of info, on the Twins website, twins.mlb.com, they now have Cuddy listed as a third baseman, not an outfielder.
Young untradeable..?!? Oy, he has way too many holes in his game - and not the kind that get fixed with age and maturity. He’s lacks agility and is a bad defender, he’s also stubborn. He won’t listen to anyone about correcting his swing - only his dad. So, who wants a .280 hitter if he’s a liability on defense, and hits only 10 home runs when he was brought in to be the missing power link.
Then there’s the personality - not so good. You ever notice MLB players that just seem to get traded every year? Looking back 10 years from now, I think DY could be one of those guys -always brought in with potential or to help out during a stretch run - but in the end, the liabilities outweigh the beneifts and boom, he’s off again to another team.
Trade him now before everyone else in the league realizes his limitations outweigh his potential.
I think the “always playing for next year” thing started with Torii Hunter when the Twins let Jacque Jones go by way of free agency. Understandably, Torii was sorry to see his friend leave, but it was the right move. Santana threw gas on the fire when his buddy Luis Castillo was traded. Is the team really worse off without Castillo and Jones and Carlos Silva? No one including myself can argue that the teams FO signings have improved the team. The best they did was buy time for some young guys to develop. In that sense I think they worked (besides 3B). But the same could have been done with better quality players that may have only stuck for a year but at least put up better numbers.
agreed, no one will want Cuddy, but someone might still want Delmon.
E7 -
You seem to have a lot of knowledge about Young’s personality. I don’t know if I have ever heard a member of the Twins coaching staff or front office say that Young was stubborn or that his personality was bad.
Young brought much needed stability to the left field position - something this team hasn’t had since Shannon Stewart. He is a .290 hitter, not a .280 hitter, and gets on base at a league average pace. I’d take that out of any left fielder - it’s just a bonus that he is only 23 and under team control for a while.
Who in the Twins organization has ever actually said that Delmon isn’t coachable or has a bad attitude or personality or is a bad teammate? I am defending him as a person who has been unfairly labelled as “surly” in my past. Just because I am not one to grin constantly?
thrylos, I think there will be plenty of market for Beltre out there so I don’t expect the Twins to get him in a bidding war, assuming the Mariners decide to deal him. Nor do I think the Twins would overpay for a rental player (which dealing Young would certainly be a prime example of).
I do think Kubel might be a possibility, though. He’s on the cusp of becoming expensive, yet with Young, Gomez, Span and Cuddyer around, he’d definitely be the Twins 5th OF… a role that could be filled elsewhere. If we don’t read about a multi-year deal for Kubel being negotiated, to me it means the Twins are talking trade.
With that said, the Twins should have plenty of salary room to seriously shop for decent Free Agents this fall. That’s something I never remember them being in a position to do.
If they can fill their need for an infielder or two with a little pop, there really is no reason to be very active in the trade market, at least until closer to spring training when you know a bit more about what you’ve got and what you don’t (e.g., is Neshek looking healthy, is Cuddyer running well, who forgot to update his visa, etc.?)
Joe or LaVelle,
Can you guys please get the Twins page updated so that the scoreboard does not show the tie-breaker game for the whole off-season? I noticed last year that it left the score of the last game up all off-season too, but no one wants to be remminded of 1-0 all winter. Thanks.
I can’t say he’s provided any stability to left field. He is a bad defender. His arm is good but he runs stiff like a 50 year old. Left field in the dome is a big area and Delmon gets bad jumps on the ball and can’t cover the ground. Then his dives are poorly timed and executed usually resulting in an error or base hit.
As far as his swing, I’ve heard that the Twins have tried to get him to drive for more power, but he talks to his dad after every game who tells him to hit inside out. That’s why he gets the dribbler base hits up the middle alot. Okay .280 or .290 but he was brought in to be an HR and RBI guy. Don’t see it happening. We need more power from either or both of the corner OF spots or 3rd base. Don’t think we get there with Delmon so trade him for someone that might.
Someone made a good comment the other day that Cuddyer’s injuries were caused by accidents (jamming his finger on a base, batted ball breaking his foot) and not the same as a torn ACL or hamstring and therefore those do not make him “injury prone”.
Delmon and “stability in left field” are oxymorons. I can’t recall a worse outfielder for the squad. …maybe Willie Norwood?
Mickey Hatcher was pretty bad too but at least he was entertaining
I would keep Delmon- 6 years younger than Beltre and for the most part Beltre has not been worth his contract.
E7,
I see some of your points, and agree Delmon is not pretty to watch running in the outfield. I have never heard any comments about him being slow on the base paths. In the outfield he seems tentative. Still, I think the chance of him being traded is zero.
How about Cuddyer, Young, and Baker(always hurt) for Matt Holiday and Fuentes. I do believe he was on the block this summer. Span, Mauer, Holliday, Morneau, and Kubel sounds pretty good. Sign Holliday to an extension, and pickup a veteran pitcher.
Shaun, I hear you, but I would give up the 15 pct points on the batting average for 15 more home runs per year (25 vs. 10). That’s the type of hole this team needs to fill if we expect to make the playoffs. With a surplus of outfielders - I’d make that trade.
Good grief, E7! Young played 151 games in LF… just what DO you consider “stable”? Do you not remember the parade of stiffs that Gardy trotted out there in 2007? Nobody is going to claim he had a great year defensively, but at least it was one position that Gardy didn’t have to platoon!
The rest of your complaints are almost funny… “usually resulting in a base hit or error”? what sort of rate constitutes a “usually”? And the comment about “I’ve heard the Twins have tried to get him to hit for more power…” Just where did you “hear” that? On one of these blogs?
Young hit .288 and had 13 HR last year for the Rays. So just WHO’s expectation was it that he was brought in to be a “HR guy”… and what was it based on? Don’t even get me started on being an “RBI guy”.
Young did pretty much exactly what was expected of him. He hit well and held down LF day in and day out. His second half splits were pretty good (.297/.345/.432).
But as I’ve said before… once some fans get it in their head that they don’t like a guy, they’re never going to change, no matter what the reality of a guy’s performance is.
If DY did pretty much what was expected - than we should be content with not being a playoff caliber team. Minnesota mentality once again~
We should expect better out of a corner outfielder that WAS expected to be a power hitter in the middle of the batting order.
JimCrikket,
I agree with the assessment, but the only issue is that there are not many free agents that might fit the Twins’ needs…
The best 3B free agent is Casey Blake and the best SS free agent is Raphael Furcal. I would not mind either of them in a Twins’ uniform, but here is the problem:
You got to look at who goes as well and look at the places you have excess players out of options and how the influx of those players might affect it.
If I were BS, I would try to think outside the box and make Milton Bradley my number one priority for the offseason for a full time DH role (heck this team can use someone with a little fire). Then, I would try to get a starting pitcher, since the Twins have 3 potential #2 guys (Slowey, Liriano, Baker), a #5 guy (Blackburn) and a long reliever/6th starter (Perkins) on the rotation. The one guy I would try to go after, is the only sure shot first ballot HOF in the group and had a sub par season last year due to injuries and family issues. So, I would sign Pedro to one year contract and move Perkins on the bench… This would make Cuddyer, Kubel, Perkins, Buscher, Harris, Guerrier, Bonser expandable and for sure a combination of them plus pitching prospects if necessary would be enough to bring in either a third baseman to warm Valencia’s seat for a year or two or if Smith is willing to give some of the high rated OF prospects in the system like Dustin Martin or Joe Benson (who are blocked anyways in the Twins system) and Valencia, a young 3B of Ryan Zimmerman/Hanley Ramirez caliber…
But, again, the main point is that there is not much out there in the FA market
we should be content with not being a playoff caliber team
methinks that Young was the least of the problems about that…
If you want to look for goats, look at the one who kept using Rincon and Bass in tight situations game after game, kept using Buscher and his .578 OPS in October, and kept Liriano in the minors just out of spite.
And here is one for you: Livan lost his last 2 games in July with 5+ runs of run support; do you think that Liriano might have won just one of them (at the same time he was compiling a 0.90 ERA for the month at AAA?). Do you remember that spiteful/ego filled interview?
I agree that the expectations are way too low, but the finger should be pointed at Gardy before at any of the players.
Period.
E7-
You have been grossly misinformed. First of all, Dmitri Young is Delmon’s brother, not his dad. The Twins organization likes DY and feels he is a great team mate, there are no “issues” between Delmon and his team mates. Do you believe everything that Ruesse and Souhan write? They have a problem w/Delmon because he is wary of the media, and doesn’t answer their stupid repetitive questions w/the kiss ass mentality that others do. (Ex: “Delmon, take us through your homerun.” Delmon: “I just got a good pitch to hit, and swung and it went out.”)
.290 at 22 yrs old IS fantastic. Kirby Puckett wasn’t in the majors until 24, Torii Hunter only had 6 at bats in his 22nd year in the bigs, and was sent down TWICE to learn to hit. Delmon reeks of talent. I hope we don’t trade him because I honestly think it will be like the David Ortiz trade-except Delmon is younger!
YES-Delmon wanted to take batting advice from his bro, but as the season went on, that wore off and he started working w/Vavra more and more. Gardy decribes him as “guarded”. After some things that have occured and the gang mentality of the media, can you blame him? Obviously, he wants to play ball and keep his mouth shut. The big shot Torii Hunter also said of Vavra when he was first hired, “There’s nothing he can teach me” but after Vavra’s success, took that statement back. Do you think Torii has a personality problem? Is Torii stubborn? DY’s defense is not stellar, but having the ridiculous (fantastic) range of Gomez and Span would make any avg fielder look inadequate. No, he isn’t fluid or graceful in his movement, and being in domes never helps. LF is also by far the most difficult position in the dome. If Delmon is traded, it is beacuse he is the ONLY big gun we have to offer for bait-Cuddy, Bonser, Guerrier, Harris, and company altogether are NOT the potential and talent of a young Delmon Young. We have enough $$ to get a Beltre and some bullpen help. Trade starting pitching?
What are you smoking?? How mant teams have a solid 5 man rotation who each had 10 wins or over on the season? Dumbest thing I ever heard! There is a reason why people want our young pitchers-beacuse they are unbelievably good for rookie seasons in the majors.
Well since I spent a good bit of time on these blogs last week trying to convince someone that it was tougher to fix the 3B problem than just to say “spend some money”, far be it for me to argue that point from the other side, thrylos. I agree, the pickings are slim. But when you expand your vision to look at 2Bs, SSs, and (as you indicated with Bradley), maybe even OFs/DHs, there are FA options out there that would improve this offense.
Then you can look at who’s expendable and deal for depth/prospects.
I do agree that there have got to be a fair number of prospects growing dangerously close to running out of time in the minors before the Twins would lose them outright and I’d look at using those players to make any deals long before someone like Young.
Needless to say, I also agree that there are a number of areas to look at if you’re looking for a reason why this team failed to make the playoffs LONG before you would point a finger at DY.
Gardy certainly gets a share of the blame. He made decisions (or failed to make them) in situations that cost some games. I would think you have to add that he probably made some decisions that helped lead directly to wins, as well, however… so I’m not sure it’s ever fair to just point out “mistakes”.
Every member of that team who played a regular role failed to come through at some point(s) that could have meant one more win.
If DY did pretty much what was expected - than we should be content with not being a playoff caliber team. Minnesota mentality once again~
This argument needs to be put to bed…it’s tired.
To say that FO, fans, players, etc, have no desire to make it to the postseason is 100% bulls**t. There isn’t a single person in an organization that doesn’t benefit from postseason play.
FO: Increased revenues from ticket sales, concessions, and TV time.
Players/Managers: Playing for their jobs. Every postseason win is one more notch on the belt when hitting free agency, or another notch when negotiating a new coaching contract.
Fans: More opportunities to root for their team. Ego by proxy when “we” go all the way.
If that’s seriously the best argument you have, you’ve lost. Go home, let the people who know what they’re talking about discuss baseball.
You guys are funny. If we got what we expected in DY than our expectations ARE too low.
As far as mistakes, Gardy has made some…but if I had to start over with a team from scratch - I’d keep the manager and replace the left fielder.
Yeah right T, we’ll all go home now - since you know what you’re talking about we;ll all stop blogging and just listen to you. Sounds like a self-proclaimed egotist to me.
Good night…
A nice byproduct of not making it into the playoffs is that the young arms in the starting rotation won’t further extend their innings pitched. Hate to have a couple of Mark Prior situations…
Nice series for the Rays, I hope they go all the way.
what are some white sox blogs that would be good to go to, to roll around in their misery?
interesting to note that pedroia — not my favorite player — is 0-for-15 in the postseason so far. but it kinda goes to show that, just like with morneau (or anybody else), streaks are a part of the game and can happen to anybody (or any team) at any time.
It sounds like the Twins aren’t planning to move Casilla to SS, as I had hoped.
If that is the case, Orlando Cabrera would be excellent at SS. Another free agent SS I like is Cesar Izturis.
Depth at SS is the only real hole to fill.
craig,
you mean aside from pitching? you mean keep delmon? and who’s your third baseman?
mickey,
I would be happy to part with Delmon. Another power pitcher in the bullpen would be nice, but not a necessity. The Twins have some decent depth at 3B. I think it works itself. Whoever plays the best, plays the most.
yeah, craig, delmon for a decent middle reliever. then gomez in center, d span in left and cuddyer in right seems to make a nice outfield. add a shortstop. although i’m not sure o.c. the answer…
so you think there’s a rotation there?
mickey,
I think there is a rotation there. Depth in starting pitching never hurts, but I think they have a five man rotation.
I think losing Delmon equals addition by subtraction. Bill Smith should take the best offer he can get for Delmon, and call it good.
Not gonna lie, after leaving the Twins for greener pastures, it’s nice to see Santana and Hunter done playing baseball for the year.
Hard to get a man to work for half the pay someone else offers, Danno.
Hard also for any of us to feel sorry they have not had success after getting and turning down millions of dollars, Craig.
I’d rather part with Cuddyer. Delmon is younger and is more likely to help. He is only 23.
People who think we should trade a player after his 1st year with the team need to realize it might take more time. I am glad some of the people here don’t run the team because alot of potential would probably go to waste. Ask the Giants how trading Nathan, Liriano, and Bonser worked out.
good one craig.
santana might prove to be “worth” the long-term dollars. but i think the angels were foolish to pay that much for a centerfielder past his prime. hard to hate on torii for it, though.
maybe they should choose between delmon and cuddyer with a coin toss.
Santana will never be worth that amount. He only pitches once in 5 days. That is quite a bit of money and as we saw this year it does not guaruntee them a playoff spot.
nora, none of them will ever be “worth” that amount. none of them.
Interesting discussion with thrylos and JimCrikket leading the way.
No time for me to get involved in it now, but to say…
Kubel/Buscher/Humber for Beltre. All three would start for Seattle. Cuddy would DH for the Twins. (And no one champions Kubel more than I.)
If that represents too much power loss for the Twins, then make it Span/Buscher/Humber.
Ellsbury is and always will be a better player than Go-Go. That’s why I like Denard; I think he’s a poor man’s Ellsbury. But Go-Go…you can just tell that this guy will be one of those me-first players in a couple years. Listen to his interviews. Everything he says is from a “I’m the center of the world” perspective. It’s like most of the time, he forgets there’s even a team involved. Just listen. It’s ridiculous, and this type of guy always end up being a distraction and a headache as they gain stats.
Go-Go will turn out to be an egotistical headache. Ellsbury will remain a consistent, productive, grounded, excellent leadoff hitter for years to come. Bill Smith blew both trades last offseason. The Bartlett for Harris and Garza of Dip-Sh– Young were ridiculous failures.
And, Romer…There’s NO WAY Seattle trades Beltre for anything less than a current starter and a current young MLB “could-be.” (Think Perkins & Go-Go or Blackburn & Young.)
There’s no way they make a trade for a bunch of leftover parts we don’t want, especially 26-year-old minor league pitchers.
You need to get real. No team is going to give us studs for a grouping of mid-twenties role players. That’s not how it works, sport. Don’t be stupid.
So we got a massive strikeout artist who everyone loves because he’s charismatic, a couple minor leaguers who’ve done nothing impressive, and a quadruple-A guy in Humber, who down the stretch Gardenhire rarely trusted in critical situations….
Yeah, that’s much better than anything the Sox would have given us.
As critical as everyone, including myself, have been of Gomez, he is still very young, and may yet turn out to be a star. Also, I’m still not understanding all the negativity directed at Delmon Young. He, also, is a very young player, who I think will turn out to be a star. But, I suppose in this day and age, where it seems like everyone has ADD, it’s to much to expect a little patience in judging these trades. It’s all, “I see the BoSox in the playoffs with players we could have had”, and “I see the Rays in the playoffs with guys we did have”. It just sounds like petulant whining, to me. If immediate payoffs are what you are looking for, perhaps baseball isn’t the sport for you, as it rarely happens that way in this game. Games take time, the season takes time, players take time to develope, trades take time to evaluate. Take the long view, people, please.
Nobody seems to mention that a trade involving Santana could only happen if HE agreed to it. I have heard that he had no intention of signing with any of the three teams except the Mets because of their Latino GM and their history of (over)paying big time Latino players. I don’t know if that is true, but the fact remains that whether a trade took place or not was in the hands of Santana.
well Lester dominated, Masterson gets a blown save, and Lowrie gets the game winning RBI. Good job Aybar, nice bunt.
Guys Get Real! We gave up too much for Young and he’s too young to bail on him after one season. Cuddy is worth zero on the market due to the fact we overpaid the guy with his last contract. Gardy and the Twins need to lose their man-crush on Kubel and face the fact he’s NEVER going to be the guy they thought. He’s a left handed bat we don’t need, but still young enough to get some value. Trade him!!! Bye Jason it’s been just okay.
Look everyone the Santana trade was about Guerra!! Sure Humber will never be a good MLB starter, but he could be a great reliever! Mulvey could easily be a quality MLB starter. Go-Go is a mystery he could continue to get better or go-go in the tank. Guerra was the best pitching TALENT offered up by anyone for Santana!! I know what Lester is doing, but that was a surprize to everyone considering he’s coming off a bout with cancer. The Redsox and Rays will be good again next year. If neither of them sign CC Sabathia and the Twinks shore up the Bullpen then we’ll be able to legitimately compete with the east coast teams and dominate the central.
Lala - good posts…I agree wholeheartedly with both.
Gomer and Delmon are young and with potential but I think their liabilities could outweigh their positives as you outlined. If I had a chance to trade one of them for the right deal, I’d do it. They could just as easily be flashes in the proverbial pan or journeymen to be~
And imagine if Gomer does become good someday - what his self-centered ego will be like. He’s in it for “me” all the way.
Span seems to me the best of the bunch and in my opinion is closer to untradeable than either Delmon or Gomer. Smart, fast, good plate discipline, runs good routes - and think he was the man left out this Spring.
Don’t trade Kubel Shookit is a douche!
Play Cuddy next spring let him build up his stats by batting him fourth between M&M then trade him at the deadline for whatever you can get. If we trade Kubes now it will be Ortiz all over again!
You can’t trade Span, Gomez, or Young and any of you who think that we should give up on 23y/o MLB quality outfielders is just stupid….THINK
If I were Bill Smith I’d sit pretty tight. Shore up the bullpen and go after a good hitting SS or 3B only if they are young enough to be a long term solution!! No Glaus, Beltre, Cabrera, Rentaria ect. They will want to much money and they aren’t getting better(past their primes).
Shameless
You are spot-on with all 3 of your posts. i couldn’t agree more.
Santana for three of Boston’s big Js. Jon, Jed and Justin or Jacoby, Jed and Justin. Either trade and Minnesota would have been in the playoffs.
thanks, and kudos to faithful. we are 1 yr from having our stud 3rd baseman, check the farm reports. retry cuddy there, or maybe some combo with hughes,bush, or macri. boof, pen w/o reyes, maybe humber, mulvey,swarz. add r/hand power, and this team will be very enjoable to watch. still would love to see tolbert, casilla in the middle w/ lnp as a utility at a more reasonable price. 9keeps gardy happy)
Shameless you are spot on on all fronts except Kubel. The guy will never be Ortiz. He isn’t even the Kubel the Twins think he is. We have too many quality outfielders in the system and he isn’t one. If Cuddy could cut it as a ML Third baseman he would have been playing there. He can’t. The arm is there, but the range and quickness is not. Cuddy has to play in the OF and we can’t get anything for him. Kubel is a liability in left and too many left-handed bats in the lineup KILL US!!! or didn’t you watch us in September? Take the Kubel Shrine down and face it. The guy is a career .270 hitter and even over a full season his power numbers don’t translate to anything other than a marginal DH. Some of you say we should dump Young after one year?? We’ve been riding the Kubel bandwagon for 4-years and its going nowhere. Good guy and the orgainization loves him, but it’s time to move on with Jason. As for those of you still talking about the Santana trade with Boston. Yeah we could have got a couple of very good players, but Do you honestly think we would beat Boston in the playoffs with Santana on the mound for them??? Get real that was the best trade we didn’t make!
If the Twins keep Delmon, they need to hide him in RF. That’s the small field in the dome. No more LF. TK hid Bush and Larkin in RF for the ‘91 champs. Delmon is a worse fielder than those two, and they were marginal.
The problem is that the Twins have two RF. One needs to go, and Cuddy is virtually untradable with the big contract.
When Delmon had the bad pin, but wouldn’t let the trainers treat it, I think the team soured on Delmon. That, and all the fielding miscues. His poor fielding really hurt the team.
Young and Gomez hurt us at times this year, but that is the price you pay when you start guys at 22. Remember these guys didn’t come up in the Twins organization where fundamentals and using your head are pounded into you. That my friends is the difference between Span and those two. Give these kids another year or two of Twins baseball and then we’ll have a true verdict on their value. I’m certain the Twins front office shares my view. Therefore, post all you want, but Young and Gomez are not going anywhere!!! The Young trade was a bad one, but Bill Smith cannot admit that at this point in his position as GM. Young is here for awhile. Deal with it!
“Young is here for awhile.”
Probably at least until the winter meetings. Maybe longer.
I suppose Gomez,Cassila,Span and Tolbert will play winter ball somewhere.If the FO was smart they would pitch a large tent in Rod Carew’s front yard and have him teach the four of them.Teach them how to hit they other way with gap power,how to bunt and how to steal bases.
I suggest everyone read Seth’s projected roster for 2009,it makes alot of sense and is doable.
Top 5 hitting stats that I would look at when evaluating a player:
1)Runs Scored. The only stat they add up at the end of the game to determine who wins.
2)AVG. Defines his ability to hit.
3)OBP. The fewer outs the better. Correlates strongly to runs scored.
4)AB/K. Every hitter mostly makes outs. Can he make productive outs.
5)Stolen bases. Does he move, or does he stand around waiting.
If a player can do 4 out of 5 of those things well, he’s probably a decent player, as long as he can field his position.
“I suggest everyone read Seth’s projected roster for 2009,it makes alot of sense and is doable.”
Yeah. Maybe. Except for:
1) Beltre and Ronny Cedeno aren’t going to be Twins. 2) The failed experiment of Mauer batting second is in the distant past. 3) Span will have a regular position.
Also, Sergio Santos is not going to be a major league baseball player and needs to be removed from the 40 man roster.
“Top 5 hitting stats that I would look at when evaluating a player:
1)Runs Scored. The only stat they add up at the end of the game to determine who wins.
2)AVG. Defines his ability to hit.
3)OBP. The fewer outs the better. Correlates strongly to runs scored.
4)AB/K. Every hitter mostly makes outs. Can he make productive outs.
5)Stolen bases. Does he move, or does he stand around waiting.”
Can you become the GM for the White Sox please?
dear whomever - it would seem to me we should package boof bonser - bredon harris - brain duensing and go after jj hardy at short stop - then package alexi casilla and slama and go after uggla at 2nd base and finally package kubel and blackburn and go afterglaus at third
lineup
span
uggla
mauer
jjhardy
morneau
young
cuddyer
glaus
gomez
what a lineup
starting rotation
baker perkins liriano slowey manship
bullpen nathan - neshek - mirajes - fuentes - guierrer - reyes - breslow -
crain
world series here we are now put a team together and dish out the cash - or else we will be a farm team to other major leaguers like we have been in the past.
leon joe crooks
“Can you become the GM for the White Sox please?”
Using my complete formula (this is only part of it), 110 wins within 3 seasons. I personally guarantee it.
“Using my complete formula (this is only part of it), 110 wins within 3 seasons. I personally guarantee it.”
Wow. That’s quite the guarantee. Especially since there has been what - 6 teams that have ever won that many games in a season? Money back guarantee?
How does Blackburn have the stuff to pitch the 8th inning? He has no strikeout pitch. He is a ground ball pitcher with his sinking fastball. He doesn’t locate his breaking stuff well at all and has an average to above average slider. I think he pitched really well this year and has great overall control. But being an 8th inning guy or better than a #4 starter would be asking a lot.
Imagine how good this team would have looked if the Twins took the Lester package from the Sox and DIDN’T trade Garza! This would be hands down the best rotation in baseball:
1. Liriano
2. Baker
3. Garza
4. Lester
5. Slowey
1. CF Crisp
2. 2B Casilla
3. C Mauer
4. 1B Morneau
5. DH Kubel
6. RF Cuddyer
7. LF Span
8. SS Bartlett
9. 3B Lowrie
Top of the bullpen: Nathan and Masterson.
Billy Smith? You get an F!
Pete D,
If you are ever unhappy with any of my personal guarantees, I will cheerfully exchange it for a brand new personal guarantee.
Lala-You give me a headache with your egotistical rants based on fairy tales. If you are soo in love with the BoSox, go ki$$ a$$ in Red Sox nation then. We don’t know what exactly they were offering-and anyone w/a few brain cells know you can’t judge a trade until after a few years. Did you really want to face Santana at Fenway a few times a season? Do you know Gomez personally, or is your assessment of him based on your bias of him as a player before the fact? Opposing managers, GMs and broadcasters have stated about Gomez, “This kid is some kind of player” and “Only 22 yrs old-he is going to be a very special player.” The Twins have arguably the best scouting in the MLB, do you really think, twit, that you know more than they do? Shut up and sit down.
“do you really think, twit, that you know more than they do? Shut up and sit down.”
Relax, man. Baseball is just a game, and just for entertainment. People throw their opinions out there. Take it in stride. You will have more fun.
OK, I’m relaxed. My Derogatory Nick Names Lineup that I noticed on the Blog:
1)Gomer
2)Demon
3)Spam
4)Cruddy
5)Kowbell
6)Punterrible
7)Butcher
8)Slowly
9)Blackie
10)thyroid (sorry, buddy, but i thought it was derogatory when i read it!)
Yeah right T, we’ll all go home now - since you know what you’re talking about we;ll all stop blogging and just listen to you.
Get off your soapbox, Skippy ol’ chap. You know as well as I do that claiming there’s no desire to win is BS.
If nobody cared if the Twins won or lost there wouldn’t be a Twins section on the Strib, and there sure as heck wouldn’t be the kind of activity we see here on a daily basis.
Unless we’re all just bots generating posts. I know I ain’t.
It has nothing to do with me claiming to be right or wrong, and everything to do with some moron thinking that a group of fans as dedicated as we are not wanting this team to succeed.
johnrambo, that would be a killer lineup/rotation, but the problem with that lineup is you’re using what you know about 2008.
Part of the reason the Twins were looking at Crisp, Ellsbury, Gomez, and Cabrera for CF was because Span hadn’t done anything in AAA.
Yes…if Bill Smith (or any of us for that matter) knew that Casilla and Span would step up like they did, the 07 offseason would’ve likely been a far different beast.
A lot of people (myself included) weren’t too excited when Span and Casilla got called up). Boy do we look stupid now! 
