Big Game Garza: Who would have thought?
Posted on October 20th, 2008 – 9:47 AMBy Joe Christensen
Rookie phenom David Price stole the spotlight with a dazzling effort to close Game 7, but Matt Garza is the toast of Tampa Bay this morning, after being named MVP of the AL Championship Series.
Did anyone believe Garza would be that composed in that big of a moment? I sure didn’t.
He overcame a quick punch to the jaw, when Dustin Pedroia hit his first-inning home run. He faced 27 batters. He allowed two hits. He threw 75 of his 118 pitches for strikes. He did little things like holding runners on base and fielding his position - things that used to slip his mind with the Twins.
Then, in the seventh inning, he looked Manager Joe Maddon in the eye and said, “You’re not taking me out of this game,” as Joe Henderson writes in today’s Tampa Tribune.
That’s Jack Morris-like. Impressive indeed.
113 Responses to "Big Game Garza: Who would have thought?"
who woulda thunk indeed. also worth noting that bartlett — and i think he’s a decent player — almost let boston back in the game with his late-inning boot.
Congrats to the Rays-but I hope this thread doesn’t get reduced to the same old DY-Garza trade complaining we have seen over and over and over and over.
Joe-any idea if the Twins are interested in JJ Hardy? The Brewers are supposedly interested in dangling him for Jake Peavy, so I was wondering if the Twins would offer a young cheap pitcher and someone else for Hardy?
The Twinks traded the wrong guy or make that the wrong guys period. Garza was a head case here but he had the best arm on the team. He has a great fastball and his control is much better. Bartlett was a key piece of the turnaround for the Rays as well. For two good to great players we got a major head case (Young) and a role player. The twinks are now in competition with McHale for the worst personnel people in town.
I agree with Mark T. Sweet move by Henry Rollins…I mean…Bill Smith.
[…] Around the Majors – […]
How can Garza manufacture that much spit………
That didn’t take long, sheesh!
OK, so the TB trade has not worked out for the Twins, at least not yet. But come on, do not hang the McHale albatross around Billy’s neck just yet. McHale has been demonstrating for years his inability to execute a trade favorable to the Wolves.
Maybe Garza and Bartlett will come back to us after they get their rings.
I still think (and hope) that Young will work out, but today, BS’s move does not look too good.
No kidding about Matt Garza. Couldn’t believe the effort he had last night. I was surprised to see him starting Game 7, but I suppose the Ray’s pitching staff was getting thin. Not often do you see a .500 pitcher with an ERA of almost 4.00 starting such an important game. Maybe he’ll get the call again in the World Series!
GARZA GARZA GARZA why did we ever trade this kid anyways. 98mph fast ball? get outta here! The kids has the funky, stinky, butt lovin’ cheese and everyone knows it! GARZA GARZA GARZA
The Rays pick funny MVP’s. On ESPN they said that Barak Obaldelli was the star of the game.
I think Colin Powell endorsed him also.
“Then, in the seventh inning, he looked Manager Joe Maddon in the eye and said, “You’re not taking me out of this game”
When Garza’s pitch count started climbing past the “magic” no. 100 and the Rays’ pen began warming up, one of the announcers said something like: “As a manager, I would ask myself, are any of the guys I can bring in right now throwing better than the guy out on the mound?”
Wouldn’t that be a refreshing way for our manager to think? Our manager would instead ask: (1) What’s his pitch count? and (2) What’s the righty/lefty match-up situation?
“Wouldn’t that be a refreshing way for our manager to think? Our manager would instead ask: (1) What’s his pitch count? and (2) What’s the righty/lefty match-up situation?”
different criteria on pitch counts between regular season and postseason.
Why did the Twins trade Garza? Anyone remember his attitude? I certainly was not a fan of it while he was here. Maybe he finally got his act ttogether and maybe it took being traded to wake him up.
I agree with Mickey. Completely different pitch count. How many days off do they have between now and the world series?
Nora,
Garza was traded because the Rays wanted young pitching, the Twins wanted a young bat.
Good job Bill Smith! Please do us all of us favor and unload that worthless bad attitude bum Delmon Young this winter. How could you give up on Garza’s potential to get this bum? If you make anymore deals like this, please do the right thing and resign!
“Who would have thought?”
Anyone that knows baseball one iota.
I am and always will be a Garza Fan. Bud Grant said, “Give me good players and I will deal with them.” Garza is a another example of where the Twins brass and field staff can’t handle controversy. Now they want to dump Delmon after one year–geez louise you winers. Garza was ours for the shaping!
Why did the Twins trade Garza? Anyone remember his attitude?
it takes 2 to tango. And Garza (like Lohse & Romero before him) did not like the way they were used by the manager and what the pitching coach wanted him to throw (Garza did not trust his off-speed stuff but was asked to throw it anyways), which resulted in conflict. That conflict could have been resolved better instead of alienating the parties. As a manager and coach, since you are supposedly the older, wiser party, you have to take the players aside and try to explain why you want them to do something and have a discussion about it. This did not happen in any case
I hope that lessons are learned…
Um,well, me.
I said at the time I didn’t like the deal, that Garza had the best healthy stuff in the entire system, that he was a potential ace, that he’d grow out of it (though that is more likely not in the Twins). Since you asked, I’ll say I saw it coming all the way, and I’ve said repeatedly on these blogs (much to several posters’ annoyance).
Funny how one of the things the Twins didn’t like was that he was too reliant on his fastball, but that the Rays realized it was his best pitch, so they wanted him to use it more.
It’s also hilarious to me how “young is only 22″ is used all the time to explain his maturity and progress, but so many were ready to give up on Garza after 1 year….and comment on how he didn’t do the little things right witht the Twins….
Congrats to the Rays. Didn’t watch the whole game, and didn’t realize how dominant Garza had been. I saw the score, and saw he was still in during the 7th, but when Maddon went to the mound all I could think was: You’re Matt garza, who do you think you are? Jack Morris? Congrats again to the Rays and Garza.
Another thing that is missing on the Garza/Young et. al trade is that everyone assumes that Garza would have the same results with the Twins this year as he had with the Rays. This is a bad assumption, since the 2 systems is different.
To see whether the trade improved the Twins, you have to compare the production of the players traded with their replacements between 2007 and 2008:
2007: Garza 5-7 3.69 ERA, 1.542 WHIP
2008: Blackburn: 11-11, 4.05 ERA, 1.360 WHIP
2007 Twins LF: .248/.303/.374
2008 Young: .290/.336/.405
2007 Bartlett: .265/.339/.361
2008 Harris: .265/.327/.394
The numbers show that the trade improved the Twins in 2008 relative to 2007. And this is all a GM should try to do in a trade.
Again, one cannot project Garza’s 2008 numbers with the Rays to his potential 2008 numbers with the Twins. For all we would know he would have had a Lohse-like blow out with Gardy and vanished in Rochester…
Lets not forget that it took a spring ttraining talk from Troy Percival,basically challenging Garza to straighten out his bull headed ways,and a early season talk from Madden (along with a suggestion to go to a sports pyschologist) for Garza to “get it”.
The suggesion now,in 20-20 hindsight, that this was a terrible trade,is easy.But 90% of the people on here were for the trade when it happened,if for no other reason than Smith dealt from percieved strength to help a poor offense.Delmon Young had an up and down year,but the Twins were one game from playing the Rays in the Division Series.
Perhaps if the Twins had a veteran presence like Percival,to get in DY’s grill if he indeed needed it,Delmons progression would have excellerated,maybe not.But it’s still too early IMO for the Twins or their fan base to think this trade was as lopsided as it now seems.
The Twins still have no pop in their bats. Garza doesn’t have so perfect with the hitters the Rays have. He is much better off nad it shows. Playoffs require HR’s to win along with good pitching. The Twins don’t have what the other playoff teams do. Morneau is not clutch.
thrylos98 great post!
the thing i’m tired of is the cancer in the clubhouse, bad attitude, bum doesn’t play the twins way crap that some people keep spewing. watching all yr i didn’t see or read (except on here) any evidence of any of this.
after all these were the same things being said about garza last yr. and we actually saw this stuff from him then and again some of the same stuff this yr in tampa.
degge-
Anybody that spits that much, you kind of wonder what he’s been sucking on…
Right, thrylos. I just keep thinking a trade of a .290 hitter averaging 80 RBI’s for a .500 pitcher with almost a 4.00 ERA should be about right (sometimes!).
thrylos, or they could have dealt him for Brandon Wood, or a real 3B, or even a LFer that hits with more power than a middle infielder. Those also would have made the Twins better this year also. Taking any of this in small doses of analyis can create whatever story someone wants to create.
They could have signed Cust, put him at DH and Kubel in left or right with Span in the other and still had Garza and Bartlett, no? That too would have been better.
As for your stats, Garza’s ERA was .4 runs lower. That’s a substantial difference. Harris - did you check his ABs and innings played? A guy that sits on the bench a lot isn’t worth much (unless he can come off the bench and hit HRs). As for Bartlett, every teammate, manager, coach and media person seems to like him more than the fans - maybe, as you all say - they know more than we do.
If they win the world series, then this trade will be up there with the trade for Herschel Walker. This trade reaked, and we gave the Rays integral parts to a potential world series championship.
Harris - did you check his ABs and innings played?
2008
Harris: 434 AB
Bartlett: 454 AB
I think that all the what they ‘could have dealt him for’ hypotheses, do not take away from the fact that the trade made the Twins a better team in 2008 vs. 2007. Would another trade have better results? Who knows?
Garza’s ERA was .4 runs lower.
and his WHIP was almost .2 higher (i.e. he put almost 2 more batters on base per 9 innings) and he won 6 less games…
Garza’s 2008 stats are surprisingly close to Blackburn’s. And that’s playing for the World Champions(?) and Blackie playing for the lowly Twins who didn’t even make it to the playoffs.
they could have dealt him for Brandon Wood, or a real 3B
I hate to say that, but Buscher was ‘more real 3B’ than Wood last year:
Buscher: 218 AB .294/.340/.390
Wood: 150 AB .200/.224/.327
and the last thing the Angels needed was starting pitching…
and his WHIP was almost .2 higher (i.e. he put almost 2 more batters on base per 9 innings) and he won 6 less games…
Are you going to continue to dismiss what he did this year like it never happened?
Wah wah… Garza is so good because he threw two great postseason games, and Delmon is terrible.
There, I summed up 90% of the commentors posts for them.
Thrylos has the best post I’ve seen on here in awhile. Kudos to him.
In two years, when Young is a great hitter and Garza’s still a #2-#3 starter, at least I’ll be able to say I had Delmon’s jersey before the bandwagon took off.
Garza’s numbers were almost identical to Blackburn’s before Blackburn’s arm imploded at season’s end.
Do I think Garza will be better than Blackburn over his career? Absolutely. But not by an overwhelming amount.
Anyone else think Delmon Young was comparable to Rondell White, Lew Ford, or any of the other garbage we’ve trotted out to left field these past few seasons? Josh Rabe? Jason Tyner? Blegh.
Delmon’s 23 with all the potential in the world. The trade wasn’t supposed to help us win in 2008. It was supposed to help us for 2009-2010. Funny how people forget that… the best thing we could’ve seen from Delmon this year was some progress, and from June on, that’s exactly what we saw.
and the last thing the Angels needed was starting pitching…
Which made their trade for Jon Garland even more puzzling.
It is almost painful to imagine a rotation that would have been Lester, Garza, Liriano, Baker and Slowey. Could have traded Perkins or Blackburn for some offensive help. I think that Garza is going to be a solid 15+ winner for the next 5 years, but he is not going to be a great pitcher once he loses 4-5 mph of that velocity. The trade looks awful now but I do think that Delmon can be a .290-.300 20-25 HR 85-100 RBI type guy. Let us not forget that the guy is only 23 years old and has only played two years in the big leagues. I think the killer part of the trade was giving up Bartlett for Harris. I know that Bartlett is never going to put up great numbers on defense or offense but he is a gamer and that can’t be underestimated. There is a reason that the Rays wouldn’t do the deal without Bartlett included and now he is the captain of a team in the World Series. He always kind of reminded me of Jeter without the obvious abundance of talent. He is a grinder who gets after it every day. I think it was really Liriano and Bartlett who turned around that 06 team and ignited them. Would have been nice to have a Bartlett, Casilla tandem for the next 5 or 6 years, but oh well. So you trade Santana to Boston and don’t deal Garza.
Span
Casilla
Mauer
Morneau
Cuddyer
Kubel
Crisp
Lowrie
Bartlett
Lester
Garza
Liriano
Baker
Slowey
Is this team better than the current one?
I don’t know, Zach. Players don’t seem to play as well when they come to Minnesota as when they go TO Boston for some reason. That is why I like developing our own players in the farm system rather than trades.
With the numbers he put up this year, and he improved as the year went on, I still don’t get where the “Delmon sucks” attitude comes from. Seems to me like he has been a big improvement over what we had and yes, at his young age, there is lots of room to look forward to even better things from DY.
The real question is what are we going to do about the outfield and how do we get a 3B? At this point it seems that Span, Gomez and Kubel are untouchable. One could say sell high on Span but i think that he looks like he will be a tremendous pro. Gomez has ridiculous potential and you have to give him a few years to try and realize that potential. Kubel has become a solid 3rd bat behind Mauer and Morneau and looks to be ready for a 100 RBI type season next year. Do you trade Delmon after one average year when he does have all that raw talent? Trading Cuddyer will bring not near his value after that injury plauged season. You also have the issue of Cuddyer probably being the team leader along with Nathan. He is a good clubhouse and community guy and that is important to the Twins organization. HE is also the only right handed bat with some pop in our lineup. So do you try to move him to 3B? That was a disaster in 2005 and his fielding would be definitely subpar on a team that values defense. Putting him at third does not upgrade the team offensively unless you sign a better shortstop. I am of the feeling that Punto will do at SS because he is a tremendous defensive player and they need some power at the 3B position. So this leaves someone out in the OF. For some reason I am inclined to want to sell high on Span after the half season he had. Although I have to admit that he was in on almost every clutch play down the stretch and he was the guy I wanted at the plate in that Chicago series. Game tying triple in the third game anyone? That was the biggest hit of the season.
Thrylos, the fact is that we traded too much for harris and young. We shifted sideways while the Rays took off. Is posting the only thing you do all day?
I would keep the outfield together, except the part about Kubel, but that’s OK. I just think if the front office keeps trying, they will stumble onto a third baseman eventually that we can’t believe was available and we can elect team MVP.
If I run the Twins I sign Crede and Affeldt. Don’t trade any of those young arms unless it is Blackburn or Perkins in a packaged for an ESTABLISHED power threat at 3B. I know that Crede is injury prone, but he would be a tremendous fit for our club and it would take a lot away from the White Sox. He would be back on grass in one year and just hope that his back doesn’t get too bad. Affeldt would be a nice power arm out of the pen to replace Reyes cause you know that he is going elsewhere. We certainly have the money to pick up those two guys. Imagine the defense of the left side of the infield with Crede and Punto. You start Gomez in AAA next year because everyone knows that right now his bat is overmatched in the big leagues. If he really starts to realize that potential then you have to make a trade of one of the other outfielders. They have totally rushed him and that is unlike the Twins. Keep those 5 young arms together because no other team in baseball has a 1-5 staff as good or young as the Twins. The whole reason we contented was those 5 pitchers and they were supposed to be the weakness going into the season. Remember that? Our bullpen was supposed to be the one strength of the team. Sign Crede, add a power arm for the pen (Affeldt), hope for improved healing of Neshek, Liriano and Crain and let those 5 young starters mature together and this club will win a world series together in the next 3 years.
By the way Mauer is a free agent in 2 years and who wants to place bets now for how much the Yankees give him? They will drool over Mauer as their next Yogi Berra and you know that there is no way he stays here for less than what Morneau is getting and I would bet he will want substancially more. I would guess a deal in the ballpark of 6 years $95-100 mil. By then he will be a 3 time batting champion at the age of 27.
Thrylos
I liked the trade at the time and still do. As you said before, the Twins traded from a strength (pitching) to shore up a weakness (offense). It may take another year, but I think DY will put up some good numbers. Even if he doesn’t, it was still a trade that made a lot of sense for the Twins.
One thing I don’t agree with is comparing Garza to Blackburn. Blackburn is nearly two years older than Garza and that is a stat that cannot be ignored when doing a side-by-side comparison. At age 24, Blackburn was not good enough to be in the majors while Garza was/is pitching for a contender.
The trade is ancient history and frankly, there is no way to know what the differences would have been if it had never been made. Most everyone in here and in other media were clamoring for better offense in 2008 and that the Twins had unproven young pitchers as trade bait. Smith pulled the trigger and the Twins offense improved. Tampa’s pitching improved. It looks to me that it helped both teams…and will continue to pay dividends for both as the years wear on. The Twins were one win shy of meeting the Rays to compete for the chance of going to the World Series. I don’t think Delmon Young or Brendan Harris alone cost them that chance any more than Garza and Bartlett alone put the Rays over the top. Both teams improved. All the players involved did reasonably well…and that is what both teams involved in a trade, at their most optimistic, can hope for.
We’ve been over this about 100 times this season. Joe asked who would have guessed, and I answered that I did. I see no value in continuing to question the greatest trade ever. Neither side is going to change its mind at this point.
Their stats were pretty much identical for about 5 months of the season though. I remember being amazed all year that everytime I would look at the stats they would be right next to one another.
Agree with rpar, both teams dealt from a position of strength to acquire players at a position of weakness. Delmon was a .300+ hitter and had almost all of his HRs during the second half of the season.
Why do some have such difficult time admitting the Twins MIGHT have made a bad trade? Bill Smith himself pretty much acknowledged it was better for the Rays THIS YEAR in Lavelle’s Q&A yesterday. Could it even out down the road? Absolutely. But I don’t know how anyone can objectively say that it is even so far. Especially if the guy who actually made the trade doesn’t think so.
“Why do some have such difficult time admitting the Twins MIGHT have made a bad trade?”
Because I don’t think they did. I have no problem admitting that they may have made a trade that won’t work out, but that’s not the same thing as a bad trade, IMO.
It would help if the Rays would quit throwing around the term “MVP” all the time, LOL!
I can agree with that premise saam. As a matter of fact, I hope this trade - if it doesn’t work out - does not discourage them from trading starting pitching for hitting in the future - especially for areas of need like 3B, SS, etc. However, IMO, a trade that doesn’t work out has to count as a bad trade. If that is not the case, then no one has ever made a bad trade.
Young may turn into a very good everyday hitter with some power but I`m afraid that his fielding will never improve. I think though the Twins should at least give him another chance so they don`t trade him and he becomes what they thought he was going to be. Then the Twins will look like fools once again.
Paul,
If you want to say it MIGHT have been, that’s fine. Very few people say that though. Most people say Young sucks and the Twins DID make a bad trade, and that’s simply not true. One could easily turn your logic around and ask why no one will admit that the Twins MIGHT have made a GOOD trade. No one wants to have the patience to find out, and that’s the frustrating part.
As for Zach’s comment on selling high on Span, I’d be all for it, but I realize it would probably get Smith crucified in Minnesota. The media’s made him into the next Minnesota Baby Jesus (along with Mauer), and despite the fact that there’s nothing in his history to show he’s capable of those numbers, or the fact that his OPS was in a steady decline month-by-month as the season went on, everyone seems to hero-worship him as the second-coming of Kirby Puckett or something.
Nick Punto looked great for us in 2006… Lew Ford looked like the real deal in 2004 when he played half a season. Boof Bonser was our #2 playoff starter in 2006.
A lot of guys can look great for half a season. Span was already declining when 2008 ended. I think if one player should go, it’s him. I like Span, but I’m also not blinded by his nice season. You can see his numbers declining and look at any number of cases of a player having a couple of great months in the past, and then watching them flounder the next season or two. Span would fetch an unreal bounty, especially if paired with Perkins. Won’t happen, but nice to think about maybe…
Steve - I hear what you’re saying but there was no shortage of people (not saying you were one) saying we got the better end of the Santana deal 2 months in, when GoGo could do little wrong and Santana was struggling a bit. So to ask for patience in this trade is fine as long as it goes both ways.
Delmon Young is a poor fielder and won’t listen to the Twins coaches regarding hitting advice (His dad, brother and other friends are his coaches). I would trade him and put Span in LF with Gomez in CF and Cuddy in RF. You people are dreaming if you think that Delmon is ever going to live up to his potential. Delmon does what he thinks is best for Delmon. He’s not a team player.
Look at the Rays order, who compares to Longoria, Pena, Upton when it comes to the ability to hit the long ball often. That is why the Rays were so dominant this year, they could hit the long ball and they were strong to the end. Our bullpen failed us this year and our lack of power. Plus when it mattered, we did not have the nuts to take it when it was presented to us because the expectations were never high anyway. I like the trade, but it was hard to stomach hearing Garza as mvp. How many errors did Bartlett make in the series??
The Rays are hitting the long ball more often than the Twins, because the Rays’ hitting philosophy is to pull the ball while the Twins’ hitting philosophy is to hit the ball to the opposite field. Young, for example, was transformed last season to a predominately opposite field hitter than a hitter at all fields. Two different philosophies, both have their pluses and minuses, but don’t expect to see many home runs from the Twins, instead expect more singles and possible doubles that most teams.
Mauer will be signed to an extension-count on it.
Span would be more of a likely candidate to go as well since he doesn’t have that untouchable contract, a la Michael Cuddyer.
Someone mentioned Joe Crede. Great stick, but is hurt too often and I don’t think playing at the Dome on FieldTurf will do wonders for his bad back.
I say go get JJ Hardy and move him to 3rd.
BTW thrylos your posts are on fire today-especially since I can’t say I always agree with you!
What do you mean, who would have thought? Matt Garze was clearly the top pitching prospect in the minor leagues in 2007. The Twins should never had traded him. Everyone in the organization knew that he has outstanding stuff and was in a category with Liriano. I think the Twins organization simply did not want to entertain the idea of paying both Liriano and Garza top money if they came through as the scouts believed they would. Trading Garza, although the organization will never admit it, will turn out to be one of the very worst trades the Twins every made. Pitchers of the quality of Garza do not come along very often. The Twins were unbelieveably fortunate to have him in the organization. The past few years have been the Twins bone head years….they have lost out on every trade they have made since the trade to SF for Liriano.
The Twins already have two top prospects not far away from starting at third base in the major leagues: Luke Huges and Dan Valencia–take you pick, they are both outstanding and have alot of power. Although very young, they are good fielders and hitters, possibly the best in all the major leagues. It would be foolish for the Twins to trade for a third baseman or put the inconsistent Cuddyer at third. Cuddyer should be traded. He is a Curse on the Twins organization.
Haven’t you been banned yet Schizo-Herb?
Whatever the case…if Garza would’ve pitched as well at the Dome as he pitched at Tropicana, maybe he’d still be a Twin.
It stings a bit to see him pitching his butt off in the playoffs…but then you also have to look at who the Twins lost that are currently rotting at home. (Hunter, Santana, Silva)
And I would wager Santana and Hunter were far more missed than Garza was.
In retrospect people miss Garza, but that’s the nature of the Strib. In retrospect everything was stupid.
as far as Garza being the Twins “top pitching prospect”, here is the 2006 ranking of the Twins top prospects by BA:
1. Francisco Liriano, lhp
2. Jason Kubel, of
3. Matt Moses, 3b
4. Glen Perkins, lhp
5. Anthony Swarzak, rhp
6. Denard Span, of
7. Matt Garza, rhp
8. Jay Rainville, rhp
9. Trevor Plouffe, ss
10. Kyle Waldrop, rhp
So he was the fourth pitching prospect and as you tell by looking at #3 above, being a “highly ranked” prospect gets you a little more probability of success than a highly paying lottery ticket…
Probably would have completed eight if it weren’t for the Rays MVP team botching a routine ground ball…
team MVP that is
I think trading Span would be an even worse idea than trading Garza.
Seems to me like there is nothing wrong with having 5 players for 4 positions. Young/Gomez/Span/Cuddyer/Kubel for 3 OF and DH. I suppose someone gets their feelings hurt when their not announced as a starter, but I think there’s plenty of at-bats to go around. And, it’s a great late-inning weapon to have someone like Kubel, Cuddyer, or Young ready to pinch hit. I was at a game earlier this year when Kubel hit a go-ahead RBI double in the eighth inning or so pinch hitting for someone at the bottom of the lineup. It was awesome.
There’s always a good change that, like it or not, someone will get hurt. Seems to me like the Twins have an outfielder hurt for at least 30 games every year, and having a proven commodity ready to step in without missing a beat is extremely valuable.
I’d go with either Young/Span/Cuddyer in the OF, Kubel DH and Gomez coming off the bench, or Young/Gomez/Span in the OF, Kubel DH and Cuddyer coming off the bench.
Cuddyer makes too much money to not start, especially when you consider the Twins limited payroll. Plus, this team desperately needs right handed hitting to offer some balance to the lineup and I don’t mean Gomez and his league worst OPS among starters.
As currently constructed, Young and Cuddyer have to get their at bats.
I like our pitching staff as it is even without Garza.
Having five quality players for four spots is fine, if you don’t have any other glaring holes in the lineup. Unfortunately, half of our infield is a hole. You trade one surplus to fix one weakness.
As for trading Garza being the “worst move ever?” Are you kidding?
Garza was 11-9 with a 3.70 ERA and 128 Ks in 184.2 IP. That’s a number 3 starter. Granted, he’ll improve, but just because he pitched two great games in the ALCS doesn’t make him the next Randy Johnson. He didn’t even show DRASTIC improvement from the first half to second half, to suggest that he’s blossoming into an ace. He stayed consistent pretty much all season.
As for Span…
July OPS: .912
August OPS: .828
September OPS: .798
Span’s OBP is for real. His average will likely be more along the lines of .270-.280, and his slugging is what’s going to drop a tremendous amount.
Don’t get me wrong, he can be a nice player in the Majors. Most teams would benefit from having someone with his speed and discipline in the leadoff spot. However, his overall offensive performance is hard to write off as anything other than a fluke.
Trading Span would be selling high in the best of ways. Again, I don’t see it happening, and acknowledging that, I hope Denard goes ahead and proves me wrong… I still think he’s in for a collapse, and is destined for a Cuddyer-like return to Earth after his great season.
Joe, thats why the Twins drafted him # 1!!
“Look at the Rays order, who compares to Longoria, Pena, Upton when it comes to the ability to hit the long ball often. That is why the Rays were so dominant this year, they could hit the long ball and they were strong to the end.”
I’ve said this before, and I’m sure I’ll probably say it again. The reason the Rays won this year is NOT because they hit the long ball. The Rays actually hit more home runs the past two years under Joe Maddon then they did this year. The reason the Rays won this year is because they allowed 273 fewer runs this year than last season. The same thing seemed to happen in 2005 - everyone thought that the White Sox were winning with all the power bats in their lineup, when it was actually the pitching staff that carried them the whole way.
We got the short end of that deal. Delmon is terrible and Harris is nothing special. I would much rather have Bartlett and Garza!
If I were the GM, I would get Adrian Beltre, start Matt Tolbert at SS, and keep Delmon Young and Carlos Gomez in LF/CF. Gomez’s offensive prowess in game 3 of the chicago series at the metrodome showed us how much talent this guy has. The same can be said for Delmon Young as he became way better from June to the end of the season.
I would also keep Humber and Mijares in the bullpen, and with Neshek coming back, there should definitely be alot of relief pitchers leaving (Reyes, Crain, Guerrier, etc.) I would also try to pick up Latroy Hawkins, because his numbers in Houston were off the charts. Moving Perkins to the bullpen, and trying to get a power arm in a trade would be a great idea. Perhaps trading bullpen arms to Seattle in exchange for Felix Hernandez. Seattle is desperate for relievers, and we seem to have a lot of them.
Starting Lineup
1. Denard Span
2. Joe Mauer
3. Delmon Young
4. Justin Morneau
5. Adrian Beltre
6. Jason Kubel
7. Matt Tolbert
8. Alexi Casilla
9. Carlos Gomez
Starting Rotation
1. Scott Baker
2. Fransisco Liriano
3. Felix Hernandez
4. Kevin Slowey
5. Nick Blackburn
Relievers
-Craig Breslow, Phil Humber, Jose Mijares, Pat Neshek, Glen Perkins, Boof Bonser, Dennys Reyes,
Matt Guerrier (?), Julio Depaula, Bobby Korecky.
… and Latroy Hawkins
Okay, editors, what is the point of having two columns by the same writer on the same subject on the same day?
All this reaction to Garza reminds me of what happened in the 07 offseason. The Red Sox were selling high on Ellsbury because of a great nationally televised fall performance.
Look no further than the current ESPN obsession with David Price, who’s apparently become the best player on the Rays’ pitching staff and the second coming of Mariano Rivera.
Look at guys on the Rockies team in 07 that were considered to be the next big MLB stars, where did that team wind up in 2008 after an almost Cinderella like postseason run?
It’s the nature of the beast.
I mean, come on, seriously folks. I have heard twins fans in the area and at the games begging for a GM to not be as stingy with holding on to our pitching staff while trying to get an impact hitter on out team. Delmon Young had a good year, granted the power numbers weren’t there but his average and hits were. There’s no way going in to a deal like that knowing what the outcome will be. I am happy for the Rays and for the players that we used to have. Maybe we should be a little more careful what we wish for. I am glad that we didn’t make a trade this past season with one of our current starters.
The Twins knew Garza was their best pitching prospect ever. They only traded him because they wanted to get out of paying future big salaries. The Twins wanted to trade him before he became prominent and they were stuck with the choice of paying a big salary or exposing their money game to the fans by trading him when he became prominent as a pitcher.
“Perhaps trading bullpen arms to Seattle in exchange for Felix Hernandez. Seattle is desperate for relievers, and we seem to have a lot of them.”
This might be the worst potential trade idea I have ever seen on these boards. And I’ve seen a bunch of them. Bullpen arms? For Felix Hernandez?
Osgrande is right. We have a staff full of .500 pitchers with 4.00 ERA’s. It’s maddening to see one we trade away be an MVP with the exact same statistics.
Delmon Young did NOT have a good year. Compare his OPS to other LFers and see for yourself. Looking only at batting average, without considering walks, doubles, HRs and other statistics will mislead you to think he hit well. He hit like a decent to good hitting SS, not like a good corner OFer.
And, before someone types “he’s only 22″ remember that Garza is only 24. He’s as likely (or more, since apparently he will now take coaching) to get better as Young is.
Garza has done great in the playoffs, but where was he all season? The guy won 11 games on a team that had the second-best record in the American League. Let’s see how he handles himself in the WS before we crown him the next Dizzy Dean.
Here’s Delmon’s BA for the last four months of the season:
June .321
July .330
Aug .245
Sept .330
Agreed, Walt. Today’s poll rates the trade, and the majority say give it more time. I tend to think the Rays are the 2008 version of the Rockies and will lose to the Phillies and we won’t have to read about them anymore. But I still am bitter that the Rays got two starters in the trade and we got one.
herb:
Howard says:
All,
The 2009 Twins schedule is at http://www.startribune.com/twins
Also (and I hate to bring this up), one of the few ways to have comments banned from startribune.com sports blogs is to impersonate other people. Unfortunately, I had to do that to a couple of commenters today. It’s infrequent, but it happens.
Keeping watch over this makes the comments section vibrant for people who contribute them, and for those who just read ‘em.
If you have any concerns, feel free to contact me at hsinker@startribune.com.
Thanks,
Howard Sinker
Sports Coordinator
startribune.com
Now, back to the questions for LEN, including mine about a right-handed third baseman with some pop.
Of the 17 players that qualified for the batting title as a LFer, Delmon is last in OPS for the year. Why? He’s last in slugging percentage. So, continuing to post his BA as proof he was good just shows that he hits a ton of singles as a percentage of his hits. He’s also 2nd to last in walks among those 17 hitters.
24 LFers had at least 400 ABs. Delmon ranks 21st among all those in terms of OPS.
The only left fielder worse than DY is Manny. But Manny makes up for it. DY is not in that category.
Should he be traded? Depends on what kind of value is offered in return. But it seems to me the Twins are trying to build with “toolsy” OF’s (Span, Revere, Hicks). If they had a legitimate power threat in DY, or Cuddy, then and only then would they make an exception. But neither one of those guys is true power hitter. Cuddy at least plays above average defense. The Twins need to build their team around pitching, defense, hitting…in that order. That was the risk they assumed in dealing Garza and Bartlett, and in doing so, they subtracted solid pitching and capable defense at SS, for power that did not materialize. Bad deal.
Maybe DY gets 30 knockers and drives in 110 runs next year. Great. Good deal then. But do you believe that will happen? And through it all, the team will continually sacrifice more defense while trying to develop DY. It’s a bad spot to be in, because I think the Twins need to consider the fact that they are close to being contenders. They should emphasize their strengths, pitching and defense, and not worry about trying to develop DY into a power hitting OF. If they can find value at one of their needs, then they should make the trade.
mike spewing this incessant hatred toward young 20 times a day and day after day is getting real old. maybe just move on to a new topic for a while at least. and it does come off as hate, even if that isn’t what you feel.
you’ll be happy to know mlb trade rumor has a young to giants for matt cain bit.
Someone posted he was good. I replied with stats showing he wasn’t. I’ll say it again, I have no hatred toward him at all. I just don’t think he was that good this year.
why are people allowed to say he was good, but you don’t want me to give stats showing he wasn’t?
but, fine, I’ll stop for at least two weeks. I promise not to post statistical evidence about Young’s performance, and any opinions about his future (which I consider brigther than his past - all I’m trying to refute at this point is how well he played this year).
I would not deal him for a pitcher, unless it is him and others for an ace type. The Twins are set at good starting pitching, I believe. I’d deal him for the right 3B, SS, 2B, corner OFer, though. I also would not deal him for a RP. I think this team needs one more guy that can hit the double and HR. I think Delmon has that potential, he just didn’t do it this year. So, if you can’t get someone back that has that potential (or is already doing it), then I say keep him.
Of the 17 players that qualified for the batting title as a LFer, Delmon is last in OPS for the year.
I had to look at this finally and it is a misstatement. It should be ‘of the 15 players that qualified for the batting title as a LF, Delmon is 14th in OPS this year, (and for the sake of completeness) 12th in OBP, 7th in BA and 14th in slugging. He is also a least 2 years younger than the rest of the group.
here is the list, btw:
(Bay and Ramirez do not qualify for the batting title in either league)
Is it just me, or are Evan Longoria and Carlos Pena the real MVP’s for the Rays, not Bartlett and Garza?
Weird, when I go to ESPN, I get the results I included. I wonder what the difference is?
Next time I post stats, I’ll indicate where I got them.
Strange….
ESPN has a error in their formula that they calculate eligibility for batting title… they are using total PA vs 162 games (which does not make sense since players who were traded mid season to another league cannot have the appropriate PAs in either league to qualify; in other words, there is not MLB qualification, like ESPN calculates, but AL qualification and NL qualification)
One thing that’s strange is if we had kept Garza and traded Santana to the Sox for Lester and masterson we would have had the 2 starters from the game 7 ALCS
Then, in the seventh inning, he looked Manager Joe Maddon in the eye and said, “You’re not taking me out of this game,”
Take that same passage and insert it into a story about how the Rays lost game 7 following a collapse by Garza shortly after that conversation.
Now Garza’s a punk for not listening to his manager, and Maddon’s a moron for not trusting his gut.
It’s amazing how we can take the same events and shape them however we need to once we know the result.
Delmon’s slugging percentage in the last four months of the season:
June: .476
July: .454
Aug: .398
Sept: .455
The average slugging percentage for American League left fielders was .448
CORRECTION!!
Those numbers were for MLB “qualified leaders” LF’s.
The average slugging percentage for AL “qualified leader” LFs was .458
In this group, Delmon’s season SLG was .405. Only Ellsbury’s was lower.
Ellsbury is not qualified as a LF… He is qualified as an OF, since he played all 3 OF positions. He had only 80 games in LF vs. 82 in CF and 37 in RF
Yahoo Sports had Ellsbury listed as a qualified leader in both CF and LF.
Delmon is listed as a qualified leader in both LF and RF.
Walter, if Delmon is listed as a qualified leader in RF (without playing a single inning there), this tells you that the “qualification” is some sort of a fantasy league “qualification” 
They also have Kubel listed as a qualified RF. He played 32 games in right.
Has anyone seen an article written by a San Fran Giants beat writer that talks about how the Twins covet Matt Cain and he could see the possiblity of a one for one trade with DY for Cain. I would take that in a heart beat and put Span in LF and Cuddy in RF.
Then take one or two of our young pitcher, One from the rotation and one from the minors and maybe a throw in and go and find a stud 3B. They do this there is a good chance the Twins make the playoffs next year.
when they trade young which seems to be predestined at this point and if punto signs elsewhere, which i doubt who are we going to bitch about next yr?
Gardy is still going to be here for people to bitch about like so many people tend to do.
When Cain stinks up the Metrodome and Delmon is eating up NL pitching we’ll all bitch about Bill Smith’s dumb move (except Souhan and Joe C.).
I think it would take more than 1 OF to get Cain. Buster Olney was asked about this rumor, and insisted that the Giants could get more than 1 OF for him.
That Cain rumor is a bit strange. I am pretty sure that it originated in a Charlie Waters’ column last week. What is strange about it, is that it is not a good match for both teams. The Giants are looking for players at their peak for Cain and the Twins are mainly looking for infielders. I believe the rumors out of Milwaukee (Cain for Fielder + Hardy) a little more, because they are based on team needs…
Fielder and Hardy for Cain sounds like it would be another botched trade for the Giants, I mean come on Fielder and Hardy for Cain who are they kidding. THat is pretty lopsided. Cain is good but not that good.
I still prefer the idea of trading all our crappy players (Boof, Guerrier, Crain, Buscher, Harris) and never-was minor leaguers (Pridie, Ruiz) for an All-Star 3B, SS, DH, SP, and RP.
