Cuddyer’s name surfaces in Atkins talks
Posted on November 7th, 2008 – 11:07 AMBy Joe Christensen
Tracy Ringolsby, of the Rocky Mountain News, reported that the Twins and Rockies had discussions about third baseman Garrett Atkins during this week’s general managers meetings.
On Thursday, Ringolsby added this nugget:
An intriguing name to watch in any Rockies talks about sending third baseman Garrett Atkins to Minnesota is outfielder Michael Cuddyer, who missed 2 1/2 months last season with a strained tendon in his left index finger and has fallen into a backup role because of the emergence of young Twins outfielders.
The Rockies are looking to add a quality starter in the offseason, and the Twins could offer the likes of Nick Blackburn or Kevin Slowey. But the Rockies would also like to add a right-handed, run-producing hitter in a multiple-player package, which is where Cuddyer, a strong clubhouse presence, would fit.
From what I can gather, the talks were preliminary, but it makes sense for the Rockies to search for a righthanded hitter in these talks, especially since they are strongly considering moving Matt Holliday. Stay tuned.
128 Responses to "Cuddyer’s name surfaces in Atkins talks"
Cuddy and Blackburn, I would make that trade.
Darn it! I wish it wasn’t Cuddy they were talking about trading… I don’t care what anyone says - he’s good for our team!
I agree Chrissy, but someone in that outfield has to go and I don’t think Young will return much in a trade
joe must be reading his own blog.
no more than cuddy. even up maybe!
It’s too bad Cuddyer can’t play third. His career OPS+ is 106, with the Metrodome as his home field. Atkins’ career OPS+ is 108 with Coors Field as his home field. Offensively, they’re the same guy. I’m not sure I would give up a whole starter just to get a third baseman rather than a right fielder. Maybe if the Rockies sent a reliever our way, I could see it. But Blackburn and Cuddyer for Atkins is a lopsided trade for the Rockies.
I guess the knock on Atkins is that he doesn’t hit well away from Coors Field, but you never know what a change of scenery would do. Personally, I’d try to get him without Blackburn and instead swap for one of our AA/AAA prospects.
Both he and Cuddyer had down years compared to 2007. He’s under team control for 2 more years and made $4.5 million in his first year of arbitration, so his and Cuddy’s contracts would be pretty much a swap. Bring in Atkins and see how 2009 goes, and if he has a great year again extend him when revenue goes up (along with Mauer, Liriano, Baker, etc.) when Target Field opens up.
Atkins also is durable, playing in nearly every game the past three years (he also can play 1B). He batted 5th most of the year, so a lineup could look something like this (my dream lineup for ‘09)
Span RF
Furcal SS
Mauer C
Morneau 1B
Atkins 3B
Kubel DH
Young LF
Gomez CF
Casilla 2B
The drawback here is that Twins OF depth goes WAY down if Cuddy is gone. We do have Kubel to spell in LF/RF, and maybe a cheap free agent signing would be in order (like the Rays did with Gabe Gross last year).
Overall, Atkins>Beltre and the Rox seem like better trading partners.
I agree that Atkins would be a great fit, but I hate to lose Cuddy. Young is a coin flip as to whether or not he will produce any power. I think Blackburn is expendable.
cuddy for atkins is a good swap.. I would give up any more and wouldnt give up a starter for him… look at his home away splits.. he stinks on the road and is great at home.. mainly because of coors… honestly I see him as being just another bust in a twins uniform..
1-1 Cuddy for Atkins (plus any AAA pitcher or 2 not named Mijares) would be ok. Anything more would be a disaster. Regardless, Atkins will not be much of an improvement over the current Buscher/Harris platoon. The good thing this deal might do is to get rid of Cuddy’s salary. I could potentially live with Atkins at 3B if the Twins go seriously after Furcal at SS
Atkins splits are a bit skewed, since he had more HR’s and around the same amount of RBI on the road, his avg. was the significant difference. I believe he would be a great pick up if it is just for Cuddy, but if they can get a RH relief pitcher with Atkins that would be the best situation, while giving up Blackey than I am all in.
it’s rumored that philly would listen on rollins, and the rangers would like to get some pitching while maybe getting ride of youngs big salary.
young is probably getting into the declining yrs for ss and rollins is coming off a sub par season.
anybody have any thoughts on what either of these guys might take to get?
I just find it hard to believe the Rockies would be willing to take on Cuddyer’s salary.
atkins 4.4 in 08 and probably +5m (arbi) in 09.
cuddy 6.75 in 09 and 8.5 in 10 options in 11.
not that much diff.
The only worthwhile RH reliever the Rockies have is Taylor Buchholz but I doubt that he is available. Still Cuddy and Blackie would be too much for Atkins and Buchholz. Cuddy and Perk, on the other hand…
Atkins for Cuddyer and Blackburn is a ridiculous trade. The reason the Rockies want to trade Atkins is because they believe they can’t sign him beyond his current deal. Now, what chance do the Twins have of doing so.
Cuddyer is a good player. IF he stays healthy, he’s a great clutch hitter with an attractive OPS. He’s a better outfielder than Delmon, and he’s a proven leader. His big thing is health, and yet he’s a guy that typically gets hurt trying to win games for his team.
Cuddy is invaluable in ways, and he’s relatively cheap.
Perhaps it’s time to admit that this is a horrible 3B market at present, move Luke Hughes in and let him have a chance at 3B, and shop for a SS and relief help instead.
Garrett Atkins doesn’t excite me much, Michael Young would be an awesome pickup. He is a hitting machine. I couldn’t argue much with Casey Blake as a stopgap type player either. These two guys eat, breathe, sleep baseball, just flat out gamers.
Cuddyer and maybe a lower end prospect for Atkins. Then offer one our starters and Harris for Milwaukee’s J.J. Hardy. Brewers need a couple of starters and we need a SS. This would cover the problems on the left side. I think I could be a GM.
I just have a response to what “Jon” said… ARE YOU CRAZY! Cuddyer and Blackburn for a 3B that only hits well at Coors Field! I don’t disagree with going after Atkins, but I think you should rethink what you are proposing to give up…
I know the Twins tried to acquire Atkins in 2007 before the trade deadline, so they do know a lot about him. He hits for some power and is good with the glove, so I think he would be a great bat to have hit behind Morneau. At least until Young starts hitting for power (if he ever does). I’m thinking Cuddyer and maybe a pitching prospect or Bonser for Atkins. Bonser would step right into their rotation and Cuddyer would proabably be a starter as well, so that should be a fair trade. If they have Livan H as a starter, they are deperate for starters and Bonser would be an upgrade to Livan.I don’t see spending a lot on a FA ss though. Everett would be cheap to sign and he should be a gold glove after his shoulder heals. You can mix him and Punto together at short for a good platoon (if they sign Punto). I understand mgmnt reluctance to move Casilla to ss after his great year at 2nd, but that is his natural position. Then you could have Tolbert/Punto at 2nd, ss solved.
I think the Twins have several AAA pitchers that they might be able to trade instead of the starting 5 from last year. I’d much rather see that. Somebody like Humber, Mulvey, or Duensing…
If we could trade Cuddyer in a Garrett Atkins trade do it in a heartbeat!!! I love Cuddy as a person, but at 8 million dollars he might be the most worthless player in MLB right now. (at least until Carl Pavano gets a contract)
Tell Cuddyer that he is getting traded unless he moves to 3B. I’d rather have Cuddyer than Atkins.
Trading Cuddyer would be the best thing that could happen to this team. The money that they would be able to re-allocate would be fantastic.
How or why was Slowey’s name mentioned? No way, no how! Cuddy for Atkins would be a good deal and it might even be ok to throw in Blackburn, but the Twins’ FO better not even be thinking of parting with Slowey.
I know there are several DY haters around here, but he put up good nos. last year, has much untapped potential and Cuddy, even when healthy, has never been that great offensively. He is just as likely to stike out swinging wildly as he is to get a hit. Maybe he add to his HR stats batting at Coors. “Clubhouse presence” is overrated. It is nice to have, but it does not win ball games and it does not get you to the WS.
how did my comment get so butchered?
I would rather keep Young than Cuddyer because Cuddyer is older, and has had one good year, and is over paid. We have 3-4 excellent OF prospects in case Young or Gomez fail in the future, but Cuddy’s 8 million a year is proof that Bill Smith has a long way to go to become an adequate GM.
Atkins in the middle of this lineup would be huge.
The Rockies are dreaming and/or nuts. Garret Atkiss for a starting outfielder and a starting pitcher from a first place team? Get real! ! !
I think trading for Atkins would turn out to be a mistake. He’s 29 and has a career .752 OPS on the road. That’s below average offensively at third. This past season his numbers were below average overall. The Twins can produce average offense at third with internal options, so there’s no need to trade away major league talent for a player who’s success in soley based on playing in Coors Field.
And lala72, Atkins doesn’t currently have a deal with the Rockies. He signed a one year deal last season for $4.3875 million through arbitration. He’s once again arb-eligible this year.
“how did my comment get so butchered?”
BC, I don’t know if you were referring to my comments, but I was not referring to your comments when I spoke of the DY haters. I am speaking of those who spent all season bashing DY even as he showed steady improvement throughout the year, and then clamored for BS to trade him in the off-season.
Garrett Atkins doesn’t excite me much, Michael Young would be an awesome pickup. He is a hitting machine.
You mean this Michael Young?
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/michael-youngs-value/
I think we should focus on trading for JJ Hardy. He’s ranked as the 2nd best fielding SS behind only Jimmy Rollins and he’s produced - averaged 25 HRs and 30 Doubles each of the last two years. I think Milwaukee is going to be desperate for starting pitching if CC and Sheets don’t resign. We have our current starting 5, plus pitchers who are close if not already ready to step in at the major league level (Humber, Mulvey, Swarzak, Duensing)
Span
Casilla
Mauer
Morneau
Hardy
Kubel/Cuddyer
Young
Buscher/Tolbert/Hughes/Casey Blake?
Gomez
I think trading for Atkins would turn out to be a mistake. He’s 29 and has a career .752 OPS on the road. That’s below average offensively at third.
So? Cuddyer has a .718 career OPS on the road.
We can’t lose Cuddyer. Who’s going to make the T-shirts this year?: 163+
snepp no wonder they would listen to offers on young.
i was a little scared of atkins road #’s but as you pointed out while i was looking this up so are cuddy’s.
cuddy career;
home 43 hr 187 rbi, ops+117, .295/.365/.488
away 32 hr 148 rbi, ops+84, .241/.323/.395
atkins career, both guys close in games played
home 44 hr 236 rbi, ops+ 121, .337/.394/.527
away 45 hr 195 rbi ops+81. .260/.328/.424
even up, good trade.
gobble,
those are tOPS+ numbers (normalized relative to the player’s team) and not sOPS+ (normalized relative to the league & stadium). You need sOPS+ for the comparison.
that’s to complicated for me!
BC, I agree that dumping Cuddyer’s salary would be great, but also dealing a major league starter with him for an offensively average third baseman is not a good deal.
Personally what’s wrong with Busher, mid 20’s cheap, hit in the .300’s, still has room to get better, I think he could develop Casey Blake like pop in his bat once he reaches his prime, who cares if he’s lefty, if you can hit you can hit. Keep giving him at bats, if he isn’t the guy we have Hughes and Valencia waiting in the wings
snepp says:
November 7th, 2008 at 1:14 pm
I think trading for Atkins would turn out to be a mistake. He’s 29 and has a career .752 OPS on the road. That’s below average offensively at third.
So? Cuddyer has a .718 career OPS on the road.
Okay, so then why trade one player at one position for almost the same player at another position? You’re still not improving the team.
If we trade Cuddy we should be going for an up and coming SS like Hardy or Lowrie in Boston, or swap him for Beltre in Seattle
Atkins and Cuddyer are almost identical players (career numbers):
EqA: Atkins: .276, Cuddyer: .276
EqR: Atkins: 351, Cuddyer: 352
WARP3: Atkins: 18.8, Cuddyer: 21.0
WARP3 = wins above replacement player adjusted for all time
EqR = equivalent runs
EqA = equivalent average
I would hope they don’t trade Cuddyer AND Blackburn for Atkins. If it has to be a pitcher, I would much rather see Perkins head down the road than Blackburn.
Personally what’s wrong with Busher,
mid 20’s
he will be 28 at the beginning of next season. A year younger than Cuddyer and 4 months younger than Atkins
cheap,
that’s good
hit in the .300’s
in AA and AAA when he was 26 and 27 years old.
still has room to get better
Not really. He may be have one or 2 years left in his prime. If you look at his defensive numbers, they are worse that those of Cuddyer’s at 3B in 2005…
i think the point is cuddy and atkins are both flawed. we have extra outfielders, pridie could be the 4th of’r maybe hit ok and is a better fielder then cuddy and a lot less expensive. we have a less than ave 3b platoon with buscher (very bad fielder) and harris so atkins would improve that spot.
even up trade would appear to improve the team overall.
id personally rather trade for rollins.. cuddy perkins and boof might be enough
liondragon,
the last thing the Phillies need are pitchers. They look for a stud outfielder and I am not sure that the Twins have any
mlbtraderumors just linked to a baseball prospectus article that supposedly says the Twins are willing to deal Young for Kouzy.
With just a little run support Blackburn would have won far more games than anyone else on the staff. Even without run support, when he conquers his emotions (maybe 2009) he’ll still win games.
Cuddy, perkins and boof, wouldn’t get you Rollins, I think you have to get rid of Boof and put in someone from AAA/AA that has potential.
As for Buscher the butcher, he will not develop any more pop then he has, he is a level swinger that does not get under it enough to get the ball over the fence more than 15 times in a full season and there is no arguing that, it is simple physics.
I think there is a good possiblity of getting JJ Hardy from the Brew crew but at what price, I have said this before, Liriano, Slowey, Baker and some of our AAA pitching are untouchable. Blackie and Perkins are expendable, even though I would like to see Blackie with the team for years to come. The guy is just rock solid. But with Duensing and Robertson coming up the ranks we can try to get some pieces on the left side of the infield and the young pitching up to start the 10′ season in Target Field.
Cuddyer is awful AND injury prone AND overpaid. Blackburn will never be better than he was last year. You make that trade in a second. Duensing, Mulvey, or Humber would be just as good or better. Anybody who thinks Cuddly should be kept around for his clubhouse presence is a tool.
That Young for Kouzmanoff rumor started here:
http://www.twincities.com/walters/ci_10891457
here is the pertinent text:
The Twins’ Bill Smith is in Los Angeles for baseball’s general manager meetings, and it would be surprising if he doesn’t talk to the San Diego Padres about a deal of third baseman Kevin Kouzmanoff for left fielder Delmon Young.
Show me a rumor about Young that does not originate with Walters or Hartman and I might bite.
Are you doubting the accuracy of Grandpa Sports in his columns?
Hey OregonTwin, where are you in Oregon, I live in Eugene, OR Just moved out here about 3 months ago.
good point made the other day that young isn’t a good interveiw so walters, sid and souhan don’t like him and want him traded. not the first time that has happened with our local press.
lots of recycled stuff like this post by joe on cuddy for atkins which was talked about yesterday on his blog nearly a day before he posted it.
My goodness, make it perkins and cruddy for Atkins and someone else and I say we pull the trigger asap!!!!!!!!
Cruddy was a knee jerk signing, and if we can get rid of that contract (he’s basically a 250 hitter, with no power) then we do it. Remember his only decent year was when he batted 4th between mauer and Mornie, and they had career years. He’s been terrible otherwise.
Atkins, although not the perfect answer, is durable and gets us ok at 3b for the next few years, which is better than we have had in forever.
I understand the comment that Cuddy and Atkins are about the same player so why trade them right? Well Cuddy isn’t gonna play with the outfield that we have and I would rather trade him and dump a couple million in salary and then have a sold 3B. Then use some of that salary room to get a guy like Hardy or Furcal (god willing). Player for player not a big trade, but to fill a position and open up some dough for a big name SS……I’m in!
Atkins AVG at home in 2008: .342
Atkins AVG on road in 2008: .233
Why would we trade more than a bag of peanuts for this guy?
The Young-for-Kouzmanoff rumor sounds more interested, but I’d like to get a little more in return…maybe a middle reliever. Kouz is five years older and isn’t exactly gold glove caliber.
Young is cheap and can give you a better offensive year than Cuddy. I love Cuddy but he is expensive and has been hurt in the last couple years. Young plays almost every game. Plus Young has a great upside and Cuddy has peaked. And to your point Kouz is no better than the bad of peanuts you call Atkins
Both Kouz and Atkins play in home parks that have drastically alter their overall numbers. So, let’s just look at their road splits:
Atkins: .233/.278/.383
Kouz: .292/.329/.473
Yea…definitely the same.
Plus Kouz is terrible with the glove. If we were going to roll with him, I would take my chances with the Butcher/Harris monster.
I’m not ready to give up on Young, who makes 400 grand. Remember Cruddy makes over 8 million.
For the record, I don’t want to trade Young either. I just don’t think Cuddyer + Perkins/Blackburn for Atkins makes even a lick of sense, whereas Young for Kouz + middle reliever is at least worth considering.
Still would take the younger guy with the better glove. Put atkins around morneau and he’ll be fine.
Yea I agree with you there….
Michale Young is signed for 5 years and $80 million. That is not cheap by any measure, but it’s a fortune for a 32-year-old shortstop who’s OPS has gone down consistently as his career has slid on the other side of 28. His career OPS+ is 102, and last year it was a mere 96. For reference, Nick Punto’s OPS + last year was 99. If we acquire him, it would have to be for a couple of fringe prospects, given how overpaid he is.
You all overvalue Cuddy.
[…] Around the Majors – […]
“You all overvalue Cuddy.”
My comments have nothing to do with Cuddyer, and everything to do with the overrated Atkins. I would be a little sad to see Cuddy go, but if they do trade him, I hope they get someone better than Atkins.
read the numbers!
thrylos98 says:
November 7th, 2008 at 1:40 pm
Atkins and Cuddyer are almost identical players (career numbers):
EqA: Atkins: .276, Cuddyer: .276
EqR: Atkins: 351, Cuddyer: 352
WARP3: Atkins: 18.8, Cuddyer: 21.0
WARP3 = wins above replacement player adjusted for all time
EqR = equivalent runs
EqA = equivalent average
“Okay, so then why trade one player at one position for almost the same player at another position? You’re still not improving the team”
You ARE improving the team, when your player (Cuddyer)can’t get on the field at an over-stocked position and their player (3B) is needed to fill an undermanned position on the Twins.
sane:
some people can’t see the forest for the trees!
I guess, even up for Cuddy, but absolutly nothing else. Atkins just does not excite me. Blackburn or Slowey, not a chance.
make this trade billy!! Its time to get rid of Cuddy and i wouldnt mind losing blackburn or perkins for atkins.
can someone tell my why we are not making a run for Peavy? We seem to have everything they need in return. I mean getting an ace with our already solid staff would be huge. Pitching wins and as much as we need power, we really could use an ace/stopper type. Peavy is cheap considering and under contract for several years. Why not offer Guzman (i like young and cuddy in the outfiedl and we still have speed with span and casilla - pridie can take center) perkins and minor league stud - we seem to have several. What am I missing. Go for it guys. Peavy would be huge on our team.
WTF32: You might not like these players, but they have a lot of value on the market. Why just give them away?
sorry I called gomez, guzman oops
Any thoughts on Slowey for Hardy straight up?
Kay… I was just letting you know that I don’t hate Delmon Young. I do hate Bill Smith for trading for him though.
Scott… For us to trade both a starting pitcher, and Cuddyer for Atkins would be tough, but if we read it closely, they are talking about a MULTI-PLAYER deal. Meaning the Twins would also get something else back as well.
Cuddyer straight up for Atkins would be a steal. So what if he’s an average fielder - it’s a good trade off for the extra power in the lineup. 25 HR/.301 BA two years ago. 29HR/.329 two years ago.
It is different if they have to include Blackburn (Slowey: never).
Baseless rumor generation path:
1. Columnist or blogger writes some ideas he/she has about potential trades
2. Those are getting picked up by clearinghouse sites like MLBrumors.com
3. MLBrumors gets scanned by reporters in other cities or blogger with a wide audience (like Olney/Neyer, baseball prospectus, hardball times)
4. Now someone’s thoughts about some potential player match with another club become “Star Tribune reports…”, “Pioneer Press reports…”, “Rocky Mountain Press reports…” and are even more widely propagated.
It is essential to see where a rumor started. If it started in a blog or in a column it is the writer’s idea. If it started by a beat writer (other than beat writers’ references to other rumors, like the one above) or by someone else connected to particular front offices (Gammons, Rosenthal and Heyman are examples of that) might have some merit.
So, this particular one (as well as the Young for Kuz) is just someone’s idea. Nothing more, nothing less… It is no more valid than anyone’s idea about what are good trade matches for the Twins.
puck, Peavy has a no-trade clause that lets him dictate where he would allow himself to be traded and he’s expressed a strong desire to remain in the NL. There’s been no indication he would allow a trade to the Twins and, in the unlikely event that he would, he would have Santana-like leverage to demand an improved contract in return for allowing the trade.
thrylos, I don’t disagree with you. That said, I’m choosing to take some solace from the fact that the Twins are at least starting to be mentioned in some of the rumors. Of course, many of them are 100% unfounded (such as anything coming out of Walters or Hartman’s columns).
But today alone, there were mentions of the Twins linked to Kouz, Atkins and Blake. If any of it is true, it at least indicates that Smith & Co. are actually working at improving the 3B situation.
The Winter meetings next month should be more interesting.
I would just like to see what the other players would be that came back to us with Atkins.
Hopefully RP Andrew Johnston would be one of the players coming back. He’s young, but he’s got a wicked slider, and could jump from AA to the majors in the bullpen
But today alone, there were mentions of the Twins linked to Kouz,
Generated by Charlie Walters
Atkins
Generated by Tracy Ringolsby, the equivalent of Sid Hartman and the same columnist who said that all the Twins need for 2009 is another arm in their bullpen
Blake.
That one was generated by Scott Miller of CBS sports after talking to Blake’s agent. You can either take it to the bank or the agent might artificially try to generate interest for his client and get a bigger contract from clubs like the Dodgers or the Indians
Regardless, I am sure that Smith is working hard getting a third baseman. My gut feeling is that before the managerial vacancy is filled in Seattle and the Twins at least kick Beltre’s tires, nothing is going to happen.
They can have Blackburn and Cuddyer but Slowey is a no go.
Atkins is not that good. I would rather hold pat with what we have than give up Blackburn. Cuddyer could be moved for a power arm in the bullpen.
I don’t see a reason to wait around for things to solidify in Seattle. Beltre made some sense in July when the Twins would have had his services for two pennant chases, 2008 and 2009. Now, he’d just be a one-year rental. No way Smith hands Seattle anyone of any value for one year of Beltre… nor, imo, should he.
Why would we give up Blackburn? I big strong kid who is going to pitch big innings. Give him a break. He won 11 games as a rookie and will continue to get better. Also don’t ever ever give up on a 23 year old outfielder who can crush the ball. Young will be better next year. Though who knows about that suspect fielding? It sure makes you feel good we have Gomez in center to help him out.
Amazing. I remember posting my own thought that the Twins should find out if they might be able to swap Slowey for Mark Teahen straight-up and was largely dismissed. Now Smith is supposedly considering dealing Slowey and Cuddyer for Atkins, a guy who’s really no better a hitter than Cuddyer himself?
If you’re going to give up a Slowey or a Blackburn, at least get back a guy with some upside, please?
Buscher is a below average fielder which is not going to cut it for the Twins unless he hits 25 bombs a year, and can drive in 100 runs.
This means that they will be more and more compelled to make a move, or go through free agency.
They could sign Casey Blake, but would he sign for less than 4 million a year? He’s not worth a lot more than that.
They could trade for Kouzmanoff, but he strikes out a lot, and doesn’t walk, and hasn’t proven his power so unless it’s Bonser and Humber for Kouz it’s not worth the risk.
For Beltre trading one of our starting 5 is too much, but if they were to throw in one of their prospects or two into a deal with Beltre we could be in business.
Also as for Atkins… He is a solid hitter, an adequate fielder, but the problem is his AGENT, and his contract situation.
Is there any news on the health status of Hank Blalock or Garciaparra’s ability to play 3rd?
Dumb. Just sign Blake for two years, Casilla and Tolbert up the middle. Keep Cuddy, someone will get injured again. I see little reason to trade anyone away, unless another team is trying to give someone away.
This is awesome. The night before opening weekend of deer season and we are already putting together a Twins lineup for April 2009. Pat yourself on the back Twins Fans!!
Keep Cuddy and look at possibly moving Delmon and only Blackie out of the rotation or a minor leaguer. For once it would be nice to get “a big pop” next to Mornie and Mauer!!
North…
happy hunting. I don’t like guns so I don’t hunt. It’s a good thing I don’t like guns… I like to hate on the Twins, wolves, and Vikings front offices too much, lol (just kidding I don’t like violence at all).
I wound,t give up our starting five, for anything,,
I would never give up both Blackie and Cuddy…never
sorry about the spelling , first time I bloged sence last spring,,
glad to see Joe C,S new face pic, looks Alot younger,,
A quick question:
The Twins have an excess of pitching. They will probably deal a starter for a position player (3B or SS). A lot of names are thrown away as dealable and untouchable.
Other than the first 3 starters (Slowey, Baker, Liriano; who should be untouchable btw) do you know which Twins starter had the 4th best FIP (Fielding independent pitching) last season? How about the worse?
I’ll take guesses for an hour, then I’ll post the answer (feel free to look it up; you will be surprised).
Atkins???? Give me a break, check his stats away from Coors Field over the past 4 years (BA, OBP, SLG):
2005: 71 games- 0.238 / 0.301 / 0.347
2006: 80 games- 0.313 / 0.402 / 0.531
2007: 78 games- 0.254 / 0.327 / 0.446
2008: 79 games- 0.233 / 0.278 / 0.383
Other than 2006 his record is PATHETIC, and his defensive aren’t that good as well- about 0.690 RZR (like Buscher ).
I’m not against trading Cuddy, but not for that “low carbs/low stats” Atkins Diet, and I’m certainly against including Blackburn.
“I do hate Bill Smith for trading for him though…. I don’t like guns, I like to hate on the Twins, wolves, and Vikings front offices too much, lol (just kidding I don’t like violence at all).”
So BC, let me get this straight…hatred is ok unless it leads to violence? Just checking…..
I’m not giving up any starting pitching (at the ML level, anyway) for Atkins. His numbers are inflated at Coors significantly and who’s to say he’ll come any where near that with the Dome/new ballpark here? Even at the inflated rate, he was only 21-99. That may only translate to 15-80 for us. Not too much to get excited about.
On another note and this is just having fun with numbers, since Buscher is a platoon player, but consider this:
Projected over 600 AB’s last season, he would have had 130 RBI’s. Yep, take a look. Of course, that’s not realistic, unless he suddenly has a drastic turn on hitting vs. lefties. Also, not much power. Just thought I’d toss it out there.
peavy has indicated a willingness to see where the cards fall. If an offer was forthcoming, why would he not want to come be the star of the new ballpark?
It would be a dream come true t have Peavy here! With regards to Cuddy, I’d be willing to let him go for Atkins even though I really do like him as clubhouse guy. He really does seem to be a genuinely good guy. However, I think as a Twins rube, I like many get too attached to players and don’t leave enough room for the business side of things. I’m so glad the hot stove season is here again!
Thanks for the luck BC!!
Much more of a Twins fan than a deer hunter–but like the traditions and beer and BS after the hunt. I like Buscher; but don’t know if they can afford to experiment with him much longer. I don’t know what’s best at this time at 3B. Also, what to do at SS? I like Tolbert, but don’t know if he’s everday player or not.
FIP and xFIP - Twins starters 2008 (and a couple of relievers thrown in for fun):
FIP
Baker 3.85
Liriano 3.93
Slowey 3.98
Bonser 4.26
Blackburn 4.44
Hernandez 4.71
Guerrier 4.83
Perkins 5.24
Bass 5.35
xFIP
Slowey 4.14
Baker 4.25
Bonser 4.31
Guerrier 4.36
Liriano 4.40
Bass 4.49
Blackburn 4.55
Hernandez 4.87
Perkins 5.05
and what those measurements mean, from hardball times:
FIP = Fielding Independent Pitching, a measure of all those things for which a pitcher is specifically responsible. The formula is (HR*13+(BB+HBP-IBB)*3-K*2)/IP, plus a league-specific factor (usually around 3.2) to round out the number to an equivalent ERA number. FIP helps you understand how well a pitcher pitched, regardless of how well his fielders fielded.
xFIP = Expected Fielding Independent Pitching. This is an experimental stat that adjusts FIP and “normalizes” the home run component. Research has shown that home runs allowed are pretty much a function of flyballs allowed and home park, so xFIP is based on the average number of home runs allowed per outfield fly. Theoretically, this should be a better predicter of a pitcher’s future ERA
That said, I am still sure that the majority of Twins’ fans for some weird reason would love to trade Bonser over Perkins every day…
Trading off Cuddy and any of our current starters for Atkins is a bad idea. In fact, it’s so far beyond bad that the English language has yet to produce a word that properly describes how bad it truly is. Atkins splits are horrible. We’ll spend another season watching yet another team making it to the post season off their savey trade with Minneasota. Meanwhile, we come up just a little short once again.
All five of our current starters should be considered untouchable. They were the backbone of the team’s success last year and could continue to be so for several more seasons to come.
I would stand pat and move Cuddy to 3rd base permanently before I would even consider a trade like that. BTW - that’s not a move I’m recommending, just a statement on how bad of a trade I think Cuddy+ for Atkins really is. If Atkins really was such a prize, the Brewers wouldn’t be trying to trade him off in the first place.
I also can’t fathom why so many people think four outfielders is a problem. There are bound to be injuries. Players need days off. A fourth starting outfielder would give Gardy a lot of options when filling out the line up card everyday. Notice I said fourth starting outfielder and not just fourth starter. Cuddy’s salary is not an issue, this team has plenty of cash on hand to cover it.
I’m also not 100% confident in Span’s hitting. His numbers last season defied anything he’s put up his entire career. He also showed signs of coming back to earth toward the end of the season. Gomez, on the other hand, really started looking good toward the end. He really shortened up his swing in the final weeks and also showed a lot more patience. I think 2009 will be the year he puts it all together and wins the lead off spot back from Span. It would sure be nice to have Cuddy around just in case Span’s success this past year was a fluke.
In my mind, the smart move is pursuing Casey Blake in free agency. Blake is a little old, but still productive. More importantly, he’s a type B free agent, so the Twins would lose nothing - not even a draft pick.
With that move, they keep all their pitchers, get a solid 3rd baseman with some pop and start the season with one of the deepest outfield’s in all of baseball. I don’t know about anybody else, but that sounds really good to me. I wouldn’t even mind seeing Punto coming back as the everyday shortstop in a line up like that.
PS - sorry about the length of that post. I didn’t realize how long it was until I posted it.
one last point:
Atkins stats last year away from Coors field: 0.233 / 0.278 / 0.383
Mike Lamb last year stats: 0.233 / 0.276 / 0.322.
Other than slugging percentages, it’s nearly identical. So for a team that waived Lamb and still pays his salary, it make no sense to go after a very similar player.
Atkins outside of Coors:
Batting Avg/ OPS: .233 / .661
No thanks
Whoops sorry Guibec. I am “that guy”
I think that Busher is a lot of raw talant at third,I think his power No,s could really boom,given everyday time, I would rather see them get a good SS. and have tolbert spell,em all at releaf spots,, he would do well there, punto, coming back ,,don,t think that will happen, but I wouldn,t mind.. but I think that sombody will snap him up ,just for the big D,that a lot of teams need right now,,
addition only…..not subtraction by trade….do the smart thing and sign blake to handle 3rd base …stay with our 4 of (thats strong-dont deplete) and let casilla and tolbert handle the middle and we have punto or harris to help out…thats pretty strong….now go help out by picking up some pitching and lets go to spring training….do not and i repeat do not tamper with our starting pitching ….baker,liriano,slowey,perkins….maybe lose blackey if need,but i would rather see prospects go…..
The Twins need to try and get Beltre for third, gold glover at that position and can hit the long ball! What is wrong with Harris at short? They did fine with him there when Little Nicky was out and he can hit just fine.
little nicky,was a better short, than little Harrie,, but i like,em both,
lets stand pat
Beltre is someone you’d have for one year and one year only. Not worth trading anything of value for and Seattle isn’t going to give him away.
Just sign Blake or Crede. Keep Buschner. The odds are that one day someone will finally excel for us at third base.
What I think has been missing from this thread is the concept that the Twins desperately need to get better defensively in the infield. That = no Buscher full time.
Why not consider making this a blockbuster and go for Matt Holiday? Relatively young RH bat with power. Isn’t that exactly what the Twins are looking for to put with M and M?
Agree with emilyjo.If Boras/Holliday are remotely interested in considering an extension, look into a Holliday/Atkins package. Perhaps something in the neighborhood of Perkins,Crain,Cuddyer,Revere & either Robertson or Guerra. But only with an extension.
ya but we cant resign holliday and wont pursue him because hes a bor”ass” client..
JimCrikket:
I think Beltre’s contract status works in our favor. With Hughes and Valencia coming up, I wouldn’t want to get a guy with more than one year left. Also, when Beltre walks, the Twins are in line for two good prospects in exchange. So it stands to reason that the Twins could get him for two good prospects or a prospect and a player. Then they have a stud for a year as a bridge to their top prospects and replace the two prospects they lost in the trade through the 2010 draft.
Cuddy & Blackburn? No deal! I’d rather have Casey Blake. Cuddy had two solid years and Blackburn is an emerging star. Pitching is always in need. If they really want Blackburn, then trade even up.
Why is no one mentioning Crede? His back problems? He has been a terror against the Twins over the years, he is a slick fielder, great arm, power in his bat and a good presence in the clubhouse to replace Cuddyer. The Twins could have had Ordonez for a song but worried about his health too and all he has done for the Tigers is be near the top for the batting title the last few years. Grab Crede, swap Cuddyer and Perkins or Blackburne for Michael Young and the Twins win the division.
How about we get Hardy and Atkins.
Make the Cuddyer for Atkins deal (we can add in a pitching prospect)
then give pitching for Hardy
1-Span
2-Hardy
3-Mauer
4-Morneau
5-Atkins
6-Kubel
7-Young
8-Casilla
9-Gomez
That linuep would be amazing in whatever order we put them.
A Hardy deal could be
Blackburn and pitching prospects for Hardy
I don’t really think you can compare Adkin’s to Cuddy. They play to totally different positions and if you put Cuddy at 3rd he probably won’t produce. The Twins need youth at 3rd not an aged veteran. If they are going to get Blake they are going in the wrong direction. If they are going to do that they might as well take a shot at Koskie. Both good guys, but if Koskie is healthy he could be a heck of a gamble.
As for Adkins he could defiantly be a good option for 3b. Put him at 3rd and leave him there don’t mess with him like the Rockies did and you will more than likely get way more production out of him. I think the Twins should take a look at Jorge Cantu. He’s a player that could bring some pop to the Twins for less of a price tag.
As for Delmon Young next year when he bat’s .290 with 110 rbi everyone is going to have a little different opinion on him. If they trade the guy it will be a shame. He need a year to learn the way the Twins play ball and he need to learn how to behave.
I like Hotcorner’s idea. Just keep bringing in free agents AND keep who we got. “The odds are that one day someone will finally excel for us.”
