Give Delmon a mulligan for April and May
Posted on December 10th, 2008 – 9:31 AMBy Joe Christensen
There are no mulligans in baseball, of course, but the concept can help when making evaluations. The Twins have this theory about giving players extra chances to prove themselves, especially young players coming off a trade.
This helps explain why they’ve expressed little urgency to trade Delmon Young, at least overtly, though his name keeps popping up in trade rumors. The front office would rather give Young a mulligan for 2008 – or a two-month mulligan, at least.
In 1999, they traded Rick Aguilera to the Cubs, acquiring a 20-year old pitcher named Kyle Lohse. The next year at Class AA, Lohse went 3-18 with a 6.04 ERA.
But by 2001, Lohse was in the big leagues, and no matter how you view his career, he signed a four-year, $41 million contract with the Cardinals in September.
The Twins made two big trades last offseason, and none of the players they acquired delivered eye-popping results. A closer look at the numbers, however, shows how most shook off early season slumps.
Delmon Young, OF
Age: 23 (Turns 24 on Sept. 14)
The beginning: He batted .264/.323 (OBP)/.337 (SLG) with no home runs and 15 RBI through May 31.
After May 31: He batted .305/.343/.444 with 10 homers and 54 RBI. For comparison, after May 31, Torii Hunter batted .275/.342/.461 with 14 homers and 52 RBI in a solid first season with the Angels.
Brendan Harris, INF
Age: 28 (Turns 29 on Aug. 26)
The beginning: Batted .262/.315/.376 before the All-Star break and lost the starting second base job.
After the break: Batted .272/.353/.434 after the break, looking more comfortable at shortstop and third base.
Jason Pridie, OF
Age: 25 (Turns 26 on Oct. 9)
The beginning: He batted .243/.276/.392 for Class AAA Rochester before the break.
After the break: He batted .326/.364/522. Baseball America named him the International League’s best defensive outfielder. Pridie needed another mulligan after his big league debut, as he muffed a ball in right field at a critical moment in Toronto and barely played again.
Carlos Gomez, OF
Age: 23 (Turns 24 next Dec. 4)
The beginning: He batted .253/.287/.351 before the break with one walk for every 28.5 plate appearances. He stole 21 bases but was caught nine times.
After the break: He batted .268/.313/.379 with one walk for every 19.5 plate appearances and was successful in 12-of-14 stolen base attempts. Gomez did some of his best work in September, during the heat of the pennant race, batting .289/.330/.470.
Philip Humber, RHP
Age: 25 (Turns 26 on Dec. 21)
The beginning: At Rochester, he went 4-7 with a 5.92 ERA before the All-Star break with 1.46 strikeouts for every walk. Opponents batted .300 against him.
After the break: He went 6-1 with a 2.67 ERA with 4.33 strikeouts for every walk and an opponent’s batting average of .233.
Kevin Mulvey, RHP
Age: 23 (Turns 24 on May 26)
The beginning: He went 3-6 with a 4.07 ERA for Rochester before the break with a 50/22 K/BB ratio.
After the break: He went 4-3 with a 3.59 ERA and a 71/26 K/BB ratio. Mulvey had been in big league during spring training, and the Twins thought he pressed too much early in the season before settling down for a solid finish to his first full season at Class AAA.
Deolis Guerra, RHP
Age: 19 (Turns 20 on April 17)
The beginning: At Class A Fort Myers, he went 7-2 with a 4.83 ERA before the break.
After the break: He went 4-7 with a 6.08 ERA, but the Twins spent the entire season refining his motion, trying to tap into the potential velocity for this 6-foot-5 youngster.
109 Responses to "Give Delmon a mulligan for April and May"
LOL
That’s the awesome analysis I expect out of Joe C. Thanks for putting something out there that finally gets to what the Delmon backers have been trying to say.
FREE DELMON! (by that I mean start, not trade)
I’ll Second Rotoblinders. This was a nice piece of work Joe. It puts some of the trade/free agency issues in context.
I thought Delmon handled himself well here last year. He didn’t lash out when Gardenhire ended his consecutive games streak. He played hurt. He wants to play and shows up. I’m not one to suggest trading him as he could blossum and having Span and Gomez in the same OF could lead to a big downgrade in offense if Span regresses and Gomez doesn’t continue to improve.
Although I have to admit I would be interested in Donald and Madsen for Young if that were to happen.
Trading Delmon or Gomez would be very silly unless they are getting major untapped talent back. It would haunt this organization much like Ortiz. Just my opinion.
Very nice post Joe and it just proves that neither the Santana nor Garza trades can be ruled good or bad just yet.
Whatever the Twins do I don’t want them to trade DY yet. I like the suggestion I heard yesterday. Send Gomez down for 1/2 of a year and start the season with DY, Span and Cuddy and after the 1st half bring Gomez up and DH Cuddy
Joe…you forgot his fielding.
DY fielded like a JV player before the All-Star break and fielded like a JV player after the All-Star break.
If DY wants to stay in the bigs very long, he needs to, A)Find an outfield mentor/teacher who’ll work him hard. B) Find a different position. C) Start pulling the ball and putting 20-30 in the leftfield bleachers to make himself a legitimate DH.
Agreed Bullwinkle
I think the Twins have an OF mentor in Jerry White.
Bullwinkle is a sweet name!
How bout Bodaggit for a moniker
Everyone rags on his fielding and I dont get it. He is not the most graceful person in the field, but when he got to the ball he caught it. It didnt look pretty, but I think he did alright. This guy is gonna hit and the power will come so dont judge a guy because he is not fluid in the outfield.
Not everyone runs like gomez and hunter to get to a ball.
If they trade Young it would be a huge mistake.
DY’s fielding is like watching the “Fridge Perry” run the 40 yd dash
Bullwinkle’s is the bar that Scott Erickson and the blonde newsreporter were caught in the bathroom playing a little hanky-panky. Was her last name Hammond? or something?
Young is cheap and can hit. Cuddyer is the one who needs to go, but they cant get rid of him because he has no value. Bad contract they made for one solid year.
Kirbyelway…..”He is not the most graceful person in the field, but when he got to the ball he caught it.” I love this!!!
When the ball was over his head, he came in. When the ball was to his left, he went right. If he didn’t know, he would just stand there waiting for directions. But hey, when he DID get to the ball, HE CAUGHT IT! Ya!!!!
Jimmy Bee I belive the fridge got the job done to. Graceful makes it look pretty, but all you can ask is they catch the ball and he does that.
Cuddy needs to go or Kubel needs to go cause the OF should be DY, Span and Gomez
Exagerating does not make u right bullwinkle.
I am not sure I would like the idea of starting Gomez off in the minors. He made huge strides last year.
Outside of Joe Mauer he may have been the best player we had down the stretch during the playoff run. He was great defensively and was also pretty good offensively.
I want Gomez playing everyday in CF. He is too important to this team imo. I have no doubt Gardy agrees.
kirbyelway…..take a look at the Twins “low-light” reels. Yes, he did eventually catch some balls but how many “should have he caught” by major league standards but landed for singles, doubles, and triples? Wish I had the time to watch all 162 games so I could quantify it for you. Gardy probably did the math on his way to Fargo.
If we trade or get jack Wilson I will not take the Twins seriously
jimmy bee…you are correct. Wilson won’t solve anything…..other than who gets to take Everett’s spot on the bench.
Compare Young with our last couple of leftfielders, Kubel and Stewart. Did those guys do any better. They have Gomez in center to cover a lot of ground Young is fine in leftfield. But if you need to exagerate some more feel free.
Bullwinkle…
I suppose you’d say that manny shouldn’t be allowed to play the field then?? He’s going into the hall of fame on his first ballot one day and he never played quality D.
By that rationnnal he doesn’t need to improve his D just improve his O and most will forgwet his bad routes. Or just move him back to right and trade over-paid Cuddy for some lowly Lohse type young prospect.
If we get Jack Wilson we will just be getting stuck with another bad contract like Cuddy’s
Also, if they didnt have to keep Cuddyer, Young would be playing rightfield, his natural position, where he should be playing.
We might be forced to keep Cuddy and then we’ll have to start him. Not only will he have to start he’ll have to either bat between Mauer and Morneau, or between Morneau and Kubel. Then he’ll get pitches to hit and have 20+ doubles, 10+HR’s, and around 50 RBI’s bt the trade deadline and he’ll have the value to get a decent reliever or prospect in return.
If DY started jacking 30-40/year, then everyone would forget his fielding. Keep dribbling rollers up the middle and to RF, then fielding comes into play.
It doesn’t take much to see DY’s struggles in LF. My wife cringes on balls hit to LF. No exaggerating….just my honest opinion.
Did you cringe when Kubel and Stewart were out there. Enough said.
Kubel can’t run and Stewart couldn’t throw but both are much better catching a fly ball. Ask Gardy.
I don’t want to trade DY first off but he is the worst fielder I have seen in quite some time
I don’t cringe with Kubel in LF, I KNOW HE CAN”T GET TO THE BALL! Delmon is frustrating because he can, but he needs a mulligan here, also, as he played all of 07 in RF and CF. Plus, once Gardy turns the screws on you on defense,(as taught by TK) many players can’t handle it. At least Delmon tunes him out, unlike cuddyer at 3b, or many players of Twins past, or Pridie, who I’d like to see more before I think about OF moves…..There are plenty of ABs for all five OF’s, especially with Kubel at DH, mostly….
Give Delmon a break - he may not take the greatest routes to the ball but I think if he were in right field he would do so much better. As for his hitting, that is coming around and I look for him to mash the ball more often than not this season. He’s not as colorful as Manny but think how great it would be if we had a right handed bat that could actually threaten to hit a dinger every time he came to the plate. Do not trade Delmon.
Give Delmon a break - he may not take the greatest routes to the ball but I think if he were in right field he would do so much better. As for his hitting, that is coming around and I look for him to mash the ball more often than not this season. He’s not as colorful as Manny but think how great it would be if we had a right handed bat that could actually threaten to hit a dinger every time he came to the plate. Do not trade Delmon.
VS -RH: DY, SPAN, Cuddy; Kubel DH
VS -LH: Span, Gomez, Cuddy; DY DH
Tweak around to give Gomez some abs vs some RH, and Span vs some LH, and u r set…..(Oh ya, someone WILL get hurt, most likely, its NICE to have depth, lol.
Wilson would be fine at SS; just don’t overpay for a guy who is a better SS but not as versitile as Punto- they hit about the same
The issue that troubles me the most….is that the Twins FO sought out DY in this trade. Didn’t we scout DY beforehand? Gardy seems “surprised” by DY’s struggles in LF. Gardy and BS should have known what they were getting beforehand.
The outfield should be Young, Gomez, and Span. Cuddy’s a likable guy, but he doesn’t get the job done like a guy being paid as much as he is. Young can easily replace his production and has the potential to do more. Cuddy? Not so much.
I repeat do not get Jack Wilson just to get someone. He is no better then what we currently have and we will have to eat another terrible contract
Beautiful work, JoeJoe!
Man, call me the typical Minnesota Twins fan (aka the eternal optimist), but I really think some of these guys could be special, special ballplayers….DELMON INCLUDED.
Give the kid a break. He just finished his 2nd full season in the bigs. Let’s see what the guy does in Year #2 in a Twinkies uni & I feel we may all be pleasantly surprised.
I disagree with those who say “do not trade Delmon.” I think we were sold a load of something when we acquired a defensively inept, offensively impotent (he fits right in there) and mentally/emotionally hard-headed player - and only had to give up a starting pitcher, our starting shortstop and a big pitching prospect to so do. I would trade DY in a HEARTBEAT if we could get value commensurate with what we gave up to land this jerk.
That being said, I don’t see it happening and I tend to agree with Joe C. that we probably need to give him a mulligan in 2009. But don’t kid yourselves, Twins fans, we wuz robbed. Payback from the baseball gods for the AJP trade to the Giants a few years ago, I guess….
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We gave up one head case for another head case. Oh yes and one more thing. Saying Bartlett is the MVP is like saying our MVP was LNP
It canot be argued that the former Twin head case in Tampa did FAR more for his new team than the former Tampa head case did for his.
Bombo who would win in a cage match bat throwing DY or Garza the Spit King.
I’m going to side with Hank- I’d rather be an optimist and hope for the best than complain right up until the Twins win the World Series (whenever it happens). Interesting comparison between Young and Hunter, Joe. One could argue that Hunter’s defense made him much more valuable- but then, one could remember certain games when Hunter badly miscalculated a ball hit to CF to allow a run.
Ahh… excellent question! I’d have to go with Delmon. The spit would be gross, to be sure, but the freakin’ bat would hurt.
Why does Garza spit so much, “anyone”?
I’m still not sure why people think Bartlett was so great in 2008. Many of his numbers were worse than his 2007 season with the Twins. Yes, he batted .286. But he scored a whopping 48 runs and drove in an astounding 37 and a simply stellar OPS of .690. Punto? .284 with 43 runs and 28 RBIs in with an OPS of .726. LNP did this in only 338 ABs compared to Bartlett’s 454.
I’d take Punto, his glove, and his hustle any day over Bartlett.
If you look at ridding the Twins of a spare part and equating him with Punto, the trade was Garza for Pridie, Harris, and Young, which is a trade anyone with a clue would make, especially with the depth at starting pitching the Twins have.
I could be that Billy Smith is not up to the job with the Twins organization. He made some idiotic moves last year in giving up alot of good talent with very little in return. The fact that he is considering obtaining a 34 year old third baseman who will be a free agent after one year should tell us that he is definately not looking out for the Twins or the Twins fans.
I disagree, Big Jimmy. Right now, it looks to me like we traded a front-of-the-rotation type of starter with a live arm for three spare parts. I can live with parting with Garza in a trade, I just don’t think the value of the ransom was commensurate.
Folks can talk up Delmon all they want. I think he’s pitiful defensively (save for his throwing arm) and he’s shown me nothing offensively in terms of how he was advertised.
An earlier post had it exactly right: mash the ball all over the yard, and we’ll forgive your idiot personna and your inability to play passable major leaghue defense. But continue to push fastballs on the inner half of the plate to the right (instead of turning on the pitch) and subsequently ground out weakly or flair little singles into right field… I have a lot harder time overlooking those shortcomings.
I think the Twins organization should bring up Hughes and Valencia for the 2009 season and put them in the starting lineup. Hughes at second and Valencia at third. Casilla would play shortstop. They couldn’t do any worse than the scrambled eggs system Gardenhire went with last season. The young players would gain important major league experience which would definately help the team in the future.
Both Hughes and Valencia have alot of power and both are right handed hitters.
Some of the bloggers here offer emotional hyperbole but not much real data about Delmon’s fielding. “he is the worst fielder I have seen in quite some time”, says one. Take a look at real evidence and not just unsupported and emotional opinion. For instance:
He tied for second amoung all major league left fielders in assists, only one behind the leader.
He also was second among all qualifying major league left fielders in “Range Factor”.
His fielding percentage placed him toward the middle.
His zone rating also placed him toward the middle.
Based on hard evidence and not blogger’s subjectivity suggests he was an average to above average left fielder.
Just the facts, Ma’am.
I don’t think Gardenhire has the mental ability or mental discipline to go with the young infielders, although it would be a good long-term strategic move and probably help the team immediately. Gardenhire always likes to be manipulating the lineup. He wants to limit the Twins ability to win the division by not allowing the team to settle in with the best possible players at each position. His ego always makes him try to show his authority as manager by constantly mixing up the lineup.
Good post, Obie. Gotta smack some sense into those giving gut-first analysis.
In an earlier post, I was all set to complain about Cuddyer seemingly striking out or failing miserably in clutch situations. Then I saw he batted around .300 with RISP last year (.299) and about that the past three years, which was much better than his typical average.
It’s amazing the difference between what people think they see and what they actually see. The bad stuff is almost always more memorable than the good. People expect the players to make the plays and almost never remember when they do their job, but they screw up, the fit hits the shan.
It would definately be a respectable lineup with Hughes and Valencia playing regularly. The Twins would have alot more power and would not have to give up any pitching to get a right handed power hitter since Valencia is a Twins product. Hughes can play second base and Valencia third base. Two right handed power hitters who can also hit for average.
Obie, one doesn’t need to fall back on stats like range factor and fielding percentage and zone rating to discern what’s obvious when you watch the guy play. He takes poor routes on hard hit balls; he occasionally misjudges fly balls hit DIRECTLY AT HIM; he takes poor angles on balls hit to the gap; he plays too deep and doesn’t play balls hit in front of him very well. Put all that in the stat machine and let me know how Delmon comes out.
I can tell you “subjectively” - not well at all. He might not be the worst OF of all time, but he’s pretty close to the worst defensive OF the Minnesota Twins have employed since Hosken Powell, Willie Norwood and I ranged across the old Met’s grass.
(Disclaimer: I’m really not Bombo Rivera!)
Obie,
You hit the nail on the head about DY’s fielding ability - it’s not near as bad as people think; they just remember the couple of plays where he looked lost. I can remember Kubel looking so terrible on a couple of plays that my gut feeling is to never let him play outfield for us but of course that doesn’t mean that he can’t get better. Guess what I’m saying is give Delmon a chance this year and I just don’t see how you can complain about a young guy that hit just about 300 for the year after a bad start. Go Twins.
Bombo,
You suggest “Put all that in the stat machine and let me know.” That is precisely what those stats evaluated, especially ZR by Stats, Inc.
Joe C often offers great stats and so does Aaron Gleeman. But, what is frustrating on these blogs is the unqualified and unsupported personal opinion. Will Delmon win a gold glove? Probably not, but the stats suggest he is at least as good as half the left fielders out there.
You are right in one thing. “one doesn’t need to fall back on stats like range factor and fielding percentage and zone rating” especially when they run counter to your opinion.
Well, well… I guess those without opinions based on factual analysis are not welcome here. Funny, I thought fans were allowed to debate their opinions and not be required to cross-check and double verify their numbers. (I was told there would be no math!)
I gotcha. I’ll take my unqualified and unsupported personal opinions and go away now and let you knowledge-based fans continue the dialog. Goodness knows, you don’t want to (or need to) hear anything else from unqualified hacks like myself and others.
Delmon is not as bad a fielder as some of you state. By no means is this one of his assets, but he is not horrible.
Patience, is alway very hard. Offensively, he is not a problem, just let him play. But, who do you play? Cuddyer, Young, Span, or Gomez. If you resign to the fact that Gardy wants Cuddy out there, they will end up mix & matching Span, Gomez, and Young.
Well said, Joe. Thanks for the well researched post. Especially since it backs up what I’ve been saying since the season ended. DY is not a bust!
I like when people like Bombo just decide to disregard stats because they don’t mesh with their opinions. Hey Bombo, the RNC called, they’d like to offer you their chairmanship.
The stats Obie quoted prove that if Delmon does indeed do all the terrible things haters say he does, then he does them less often than the average left fielder. Furthermore, three things that always seem to get left out when talking about Delmon’s defense;
1. Last year was his first year in the dome, so he had to work to adjust to the ceiling. We were spoiled by Span and Gomez (both superb fielders) into thinking this shouldn’t be a factor.
2. Delmon had never played left field, i.e. he was out of position. Put Morneau at short, and lets see how well that works out.
3. He has one of the 5 best arms in the league. I personally saw him throw a guy out at second on a ball hit to the wall. As the reputation of his arm grows, he will save bases and runs by making runners scared to tag up. That won’t show up in the stats, but it will be there.
As for his offense, he hit almost .300 with below-average power numbers at the age of 23. When Torii was 23 he spent the year in the minors, save for a brief call-up where he struck out 6 times in 17 AB’s. Delmon’s BA last year was higher than any of Torii’s. Delmon’s OBP last year was only .008 below Torii’s last year, which was Hunter’s career-best, BTW. Trading Delmon would be a huge mistake, given where he is already at in terms of how young he is, and where he has the potential to go.
Oh by the way, great analysis Joe C. We are also forgeting that Jason Pridie is ready for a role on the MLB roster. Image an OF with Pridie, Span, and Gomez. Nothing would far!
Simon is loco…….
fall!
Bombo,
My purpose is not to offend you. Make your argument and state your opinion, but many readers will be more influenced by real evidence than unqualified statements such as its “obvious when you watch the guy play”.
What is obvious to you may not be obvious to all, and may sometimes conflict with actual facts. The point of my original blog is simply that the evidence suggests Delmon is an average or above average left fielder.
The problem with Young’s fielding can be attributed to his discomfort seeing the ball in the Dome, and he’s still a little unsure of himself. With another year, the Dome will not be an issue, and his maturity will help strike out less and be more confident in the field. I applaud how he handled himself off the field. I see his fielding as correctable. Just like most of us assume Gomez will make better throws this year.
Bombo: Every outfielder will sometimes misjudge a ball hit directly at him; there is no trajectory to use to mentally compute the arc of the ball. Have you ever played baseball? And in left field in the dome, on mid-height line drives the ball comes right out of a bank of lights. That is one of the toughest spots to play in all of baseball. If you want to pick on Mr. Young for something, you will have to do better than that.
Delmon’s OPS after May 31 was still one of the three worst among all qualifying LFers in baseball, if I remember correctly. Don’t compare “good” Delmon to “bad” but to other MLB LFers (or RFers). I’m in training, so I can’t double check my facts, but I’m sure thrylos will….
Keep Delmon Young! I wish we could trade Cuddyer, but no one wants to pay a ransom for mediocrity. Well, no other team anyway.
jimmy, I think Garza has some kind of OCD when it comes to the spitting. I don’t mind not having to watch his spit-fest every 5th game.
BTW: Good analysis Joe. Thanks for the numbers.
Dan G is on the right track regarding Young’s fielding. Young has an awesome arm. Anyone who watched Shannon Stewart play left and try to throw the ball in knows what an upgrade Young is in terms of limiting guys tagging and taking extra bases. As for fielding he has had his bad moments but he’s out of position. I think his arm makes up for a bad play here and there.
He needs to settle in and listen to Jerry White. The biggest problem I think Young has is that he’s not very coachable. He listens to his dad and his brother Dimitri. He needs to listen to Gardy and Jerry White. This year or next he’ll be the best left fielder we’ve had since Larry Hisle.
I like the breakdown of the stats, especially comparing Young to Hunter. Young is way ahead of Hunter at the same point in his career. People keep complaining about his fielding. The same thing was said about Morneau when he first came up and he has made himself into a very good 1st baseman. If Young will work on his skills, he will improve. Also, remember he learning how to play left field in the dome.
Garza: 11-9; 3.7 ERA, 184 innings; 59 walks/128 Ks
Baker 11-4; 3.45 ERA, 172 innings, 42 walks/142 Ks
Slowey: 12-11, 3.99 ERA, 160 innings, 24 walks/123 Ks
Blackburn: 11-11, 4.05 ERA, 193 innings; 39 walks/93 Ks
So the notion that we would have had a much better year if we had just kept Garza and had traded one of the other righthanders seems not to hold up. Factor in the Twins’ shaky bullpen (upping ERA by allowing inherited runners to score) for much of last season (and blowing multiple games where Blackburn left with a lead in particular) and I suspect that Blackburn, Slowey, or Baker all could have put up the same or better numbers in Tampa than Garza.
Bombo….sorry I was actually working when folks, for some reason, want to defend DY’s fielding.
Stats are good. Stats are facts. But hey…..I’m going to trust my eyes. DY’s fielding is not much better than the kids on my son’s 14yr old team.
Joe,
I am not going to give Bill Smith a mulligan because that guy would try and sign Randy Mulligan to a free agent contract!
There are no mulligans in baseball,
And there’s no crying in baseball.
Mr. C.
Thank you for your professional approach. These allocated stats give a better look at what the players obtained in ‘08 as a result of trades actually did after settling in to a new town and a “God awful” ballpark.
Good work!
Great stats joe…Do NOT trade Delmon. Cuddy has to quit being a giant puss and learn how to play third. Problem solved. Take grounders all winter long. Thats what winter league is for. He’s getting paid enough to be an athlete. Tell him play third or you’re gone buddy. It’s just baseball for cryin out loud. Not like we’re asking him to QB the vikes. Then move Del to right and Span in left.
Economy doesn’t look good for next year….think I’ll ask MY boss for a mulligan in 2009.
A First Half mulligan? I was at a game in July when DY swung at 12 pitches in row in 3 AB’s. I was at another game in Aug. Where Mauer and Morneau walked on 8 pitches and DY swung at the first pitch and grounded into a DP. His plan for his AB’s is atrocious. A little leaguer knows more about hiiting than he does.
I notice the Delmon supporters seem to give actually numbers and facts, such as he hit .289,10 HR’s, 69 RBI. Or the outstanding numbers Joe gave today. And I also notice Delmon haters give zero “facts”, only talking about how terrible of a player he is, terrible fielding, or what a cancer in the clubhouse he is. Or, worse yet, the 4:04 post where somebody talks about 12 pitches in an entire season. At age 23, 2 years in the bigs, and one year with the Twins, the Delmon haters want to trade away a guy. I guess we should have gotten rid of Torii Hunter early in his career. What about Joe Mauer and Justin Morneau? I don’t recall them doing well right away. I’m sure there are a hundred other as well. AND, DELMON DIDN’T HAVE A BAD SEASON!! Maybe too many people just bought into too much hype and thought Delmon would hit 30 HR’s and 140 RBI last year. Which, by the way, only a few guys do….ever.
Bullwinkle should ask for a mulligan on his assinine posts with no stats while ripping Joe C. and his excellent facts.
My apologies Bullwinkle. Just saw your 2:34 post. While Joe C. was busy spewing his crazy facts and stats, you were busy rewinding the Twins 163 game, 1458+ inning, 4374+ outs season in your photographic memory and trusting your “eyes” that Delmon sucks. Once again, I didn’t know you were Rainman. Sorry!
Joe C., excellent post. Thank you. Both these trades may provide benefits to the Twins for years to come. The Mets won as many playoff games as did the Twins. The Rays did go to the World Series, but the Twins too, were improved. Let’s wait & see how it all works out!
Joe C made the point I made several days ago regarding DY’s hittinbg and Obie (and others) made a similar point re: his fielding. Others pointed out other factors in cutting DY some slack like his youth and the fact it was his first year after a trade. DY’s detractors simply can’t point to anything thing other than anectdotes to support their case (mike wants to win now please give a cite to where you found that DY’s .791 ops post May 31 was the 3rd worst among qualifying LF). DY has a chance to be a 20-25 HR guy with an ops over .800, which is a lot better than any right-handed bat we’ve had around here in a long time. This does not mean I thin the Twins should hang onto him at all costs, but it does mean the club should get significant return for him if they do trade him. I don’t think the trade with Tampa can be dimissed as a failure just yet. This trade, like most trades, can’t be judged on one year. Remember, this was a trade of potential for potential and there is a lot of time left before Garza and DY reach their primes.
BC BENEKE-We give you a mulligan everyday reading your rants! You never give ballplayers mulligans.Baseball is a game for heavens sake,not hand to hand combat!
The scouts rated DY a five tool guy,i believe fielding is one of those tools.Again,what the heck do those professional scouts know compared to SOME of our little league rejects on this blog!
Right on, GENO.
GENO,
I don’t believe that DY was ever called a 5-tool player.
I have seen him play since he was a 15-yr-old, and he has NEVER had more than average speed.
You could call fielding a tool if you discount his lack of speed and just rate hands and hand-eye coordination.
Hitting, power and throwing were his real tools.
So maybe he was a 3-and-a-half tool prospect
I’ve posted them numerous times. It doesn’t matter. No one that supports Delmon is going to change their mind. I think thrylos corrected me about 2 weeks ago, and said Delmon wasn’t that bad, because Manny shouldn’t count as qualified because he switched leagues. Seriously, it doesn’t matter how many times someone posts a negative stat on Delmon, those people get beat up here. All I’m asking is that if people are going to say that anyone that thinks he isn’t good never puts out stats, that they first check out the hundreds of posts where I and others have put out stats.
I’m done with DY talk until they trade him or the season starts. I don’t like being called names and a liar and a bad person just because I disagree with someone’s opinion. Also, please note, I’ve not said he won’t be a good player, I’ve only asked people to compare him to other corner OFers when saying how good he was last year.
I just checked Fan Graphs, Delmon ranged from a best in September/Oct of the 38th best overall OF in terms of OPS (of around 76) to 64th best of 72 or so in August, 35 in July, 43rd in June and 52nd in may. Meaning, his best month he was Median, but the majority of the months he was not. He also had a negative WPA all but two months, one of which was .07. That took all of 2 minutes to check.
How good was Josh Hamilton at the same age? How good was Gonzalez (Spelling?). Both 1st overall picks that have turned into good players. How about Jr Griffey & ARod? Players in their early 20’s definitely have a chance to improve. Physical & emotional maturity can make a big difference. Remember, many “top prospects” at the same age are still in the minor leagues. This is my Delmon Young rant. Give the kid a chance.
I think ‘Mike wants wins’ doesn’t really wants wins. And he is a liar and a bad person.
Great logic Joe - If you exclude the periods where Delmon was bad, he wasn’t that bad. I liked the comparison to Torii Hunter as well. Lost in that match-up would be consideration of the other 50% of their playing time - commonly known as defense. Hunter played like his usual Gold Glove self in the field while Delmon played like Fred Sanford.
Many good posts, starting with Joe C’s thoughtful analysis. Isn’t it interesting to observe that some of us trust facts and have a disdain for sujective observations and intuition, and vice versa. There’s room for both, when competently done, and that’s why there were a lot of solid comments from both crunchers and intuitors.
birdofprey-Very thoughtful post!This should be a vehicle to exchance baseball thoughts and ideas.We get in trouble when some think their imput is more meaningful than others.That’s when terms like idiot,stupid and moron come into play.Counterprotective in my view!
Good one Teflon, Fred Sanford LMAO! Many comparisons to Big Popi David Ortiz also, which I wouldn’t mind coming true. Probably more like Big Papa Smurf than Big Popi though:
http://bluebuddies.com/gallery/Smurf_T_Shirt/jpg/Smurfs_T-Shirts_Smurf_Baseball.jpg
Stats are stats and all that good stuff. Like the old accounting joke…what’s 2 plus 2? Well….what do you want it to be?
You guys trust your stats and numbers. I’ll trust my eyes. Seeing is believing. Watch DY on TV or show up for a few games.
This must be similar to the early explorers trying to prove the world is round and not flat. Facts at that time could prove the world was flat but we know the rest of the story……
I truly can not believe anyone seeing DY in LF thinks his fielding is normal, standard, or acceptable. Gotta look beyond the numbers. Trust your eyes!
Good article Joe.
Patience is key and I’d much prefer to let the young guys develop and stay within the organization rather than reach for a trade.
Hey…I can get used to stats….
Fielding Pct (of those who had one)
DY was 101st of 122 AL outfielders
Cuddy was 54nd of 122
Range Factor (of those who had one)
DY was 91st of 122
Cuddy was 52nd of 122
Errors.
DY was tied for league lead with 8 errors.
Cuddy had 1 error.
DY IS getting better. In 2007, he had 14 errors in the outfield.
You guys are right, look at the facts first before deciding DY isn’t any good in the field. 
Nice job Bullwinkle,
DY is a terrible fielder. I think that Cuddyer will rebound this year. Trade DY!
mike wants to win: the info is greatly appreciated, although some of us work and don’t always find it convenient to go chasing after stats exactly when we need them. The stats demonstrate he was in the middle of the curve for 3 months and pretty low for 3. Which is not the same thing as demonstrating he is a terrible player. My point is not that he is the second coming of Willie Mays (he isn’t). My point (and I think Joe C’s point) is that these are not unexpected stats for a 23 year-old in his first year with a new club. DY is a long way from a finished product and the Twins traded for potential, not immediate indicia of a HOF career.
The Twins don’t have 5 years or whatever it takes for DY to mature as a player and a person. There is no guarantee on that happening. The Twins are a playoff team now. Trade DY and get some help for the present.
Trade Cuddyer free up money to bring in quality second baseman casilla not good!
