More thoughts on Ty Wigginton and Brandon Lyon
Posted on December 17th, 2008 – 12:26 PMBy Joe Christensen
Some follow-up thoughts after hearing the Twins won’t aggressively pursue Ty Wigginton but have expressed interest in Brandon Lyon:
(*) Wigginton does not play third base well enough to be the everyday guy for the Twins. Brendan Harris is a better defensive third baseman and equally versatile. Both bat righthanded. Harris will make about $500,000 next season. Wigginton will make at least $6 million.
Wigginton was a force at Houston’s Minute Maid Park last season and finished with an impressive batting line: .285/.350 (OBP)/.526 (SLG). But after June 17, Harris quietly batted .300/.362/.495.
As La Velle has noted, the Twins finished with 91 RBI from their third basemen last season, even with Mike Lamb chewing up all those early season at-bats. A Harris/Brian Buscher platoon might not be perfect. There are reasonable questions about whether Buscher can repeat his performance against RHP from last season: .316/.362/.432.
But the answer is not Wigginton, who isn’t a 500 percent upgrade over Harris.
(*) Lyon’s best pitch is his breaking ball. He is not overpowering but mixes his pitches well, not unlike Matt Guerrier. I know some readers will write him off after that comparison, completely forgetting Guerrier’s 2.35 ERA in 2007 and 2.83 ERA through June 7 last year.
Why add Lyon if the Twins already have a version of him in Guerrier? Lyon has been a closer and an eighth-inning guy. He was 26-for-31 in save opportunities last season. The Twins might not be upgrading, but they’d be adding depth. The presence of a pitcher with late-inning experience could really help Guerrier, Jesse Crain and Jose Mijares get comfortable in their roles.
Through July 18 last season, Lyon held opponents to a .238 batting average, but they hit .392 off him the rest of the way, as he lost his closing job with Arizona to Chad Qualls. His agent, Barry Meister, said Lyon is fully healthy.
In 2007, Lyon was terrific in a setup role, going 6-4 with a 2.68 ERA. He made $3.125 million last year. There is some thought that he’d take a one-year deal to rebuild his value before hitting the free agent market again next fall.
324 Responses to "More thoughts on Ty Wigginton and Brandon Lyon"
Me, Lyon, and Qualls are going to go party on Thunder Island!
More temp stop gap bullcrap…. and excuses for doing nothing…
Thanks for the info, Joe; I think going after Lyon is a good idea based on his past success and the fact that he can come in for the 7th or 8th inning along with Mijares and could be a nice fit. I’m not sold on Wigginton so am happy to hear that the FO isn’t beating down his door with an offer - whatever happened to going after Escobar? We could always move LNP to third base if we could get him since he’s young and not too expensive and has a big upside. I say go for it - only 63 more days until the pitchers and catcher report - Go Twins!!!
I’m ok with adding Lyon; as well as any other depth in the relief corps.
So what is this that i saw about Kenshin Kawakami on the MLBTR site? I haven’t heard word one about him until yesterday.
One other thing — I wouldn’t mind seeing Harris at third (as an every day guy) at least for a while, because when he was there, I felt he played well. He was bounced all over the infield for the better part of the season, and would like to see what he could do, if he knew he was at the hot corner every day. Not to mention hitting one seriously sweet bomb off of a future first ballot hall of fame closer last season in petco.
“we have money and plan to upgrade”, but not at the expense of signing any player, that you know, is actually worth more than 4-5MM a year, or about to enter his prime earning years, or could someday be expensive, or is “suspect” on D, or “strikes out too much”, or “isn’t that big of an upgrade”.or…….the list of reasons not to spend money goes on and on.
Why did they say they had money, and raised our expectations, if they knew they’d just throw out the same excuses for not spending money that they always do?
Does anyone doubt what Torii and Johan were saying before they left? Always playing for a future that never arrives?
The stupidest argument against signing Wiggy is:
Lamb and Everett were Astros.
Therefore, don’t sign Wiggy because he was an Astro.
So, if Hunter Pence becomes cheap and available,…….FUGGETABOUTIT!
Ridiculous!
If the Twins were fine with Harris/Buscher from the start, and they stated again and again and again they wanted to upgrade 3B and SS, why on earth re-sign Nick Punto??? I guess I could be fine with no action, but I’m not fine with saying one thing and doing another. Boooo Twins front office.
I’m thinking Bill Smith watched “The Office - Episode: The Surplus” not long ago, and checked into his contract, and saw he gets a 15% bonus of whatever the team is below their spending budget.
The Twins won’t sign Wigginton because Harris is a cheaper option but they gave 4 million to Punto with Harris, Tolbert, Casilla, Hughes, and Plouffe around to play for the minimum?
Once again, no logic is Twins logic. ugh!
This wigginton thing really makes me think that they are set on building this team cheap!
Why then did they sign Punto?
I just can’t figure out what the hell they’re thinking!
It’s all about “Twins baseball” and I think it’s going too far!
They would value Blake(soon to be 36) at 2 years 15 million and say that paying 3 years 25 million for Wiggs(only 31) is over paying?!?
The only real difference is that Blake knows how the Twins play baseball. So this is the pattern for this season anyway-WE WILL OVER PAY GUYS WHO WE KNOW WILL PLAY CONCTRUCTIVELY IN THE TWINS BRAND OF BALL AND ANYBODY ELSE IS OUT OF THE QUESTION UNLESS THEY’RE SUPER CHEAP
P.S. THAT’S WHY DELMON MUST TAKE HIS STAR ELSEWHERE JUST LIKE ORTIZ HAD TO BECAUSE OF ALL THIS TWINS BASEBALL CRAP!! LET SLUGGERS SLUG AND STOP TREATING THE HITTERS LIKE THEY ARE ALL THE SAME!!
The great philosopher Plato once said”every institution will tend to crumble from an excess of it’s own ideals”
You’re right, Joe C, Wiggington isn’t 500% better than Harris. However, players aren’t paid on an arithmetic progression like that and you know it. Punto isn’t 8 times better than Harris, for instance. Not even close. And yet it’s okay to pay him $4 million? By your logic, even the M&M boys’s salaries are not warranted because they’re not 20 or 30 times better than a league minimum guy.
Wiggington brings significantly more power to the table than Harris and this team needs power. The question is, how much do you pay to get from 88 wins to plus 90? How much do you pay to actually contend for the whole enchilada? Wiggington alone doesn’t make us a WS contender, but we’d be closer with him than without him.
Joe C has a point- Wiggy isn’t that large of a defensive (maybe not even as large as an offensive one) upgrade and since Wiggy plays in Minute Maid then every Twins personnel should pause and think.
Lyon was one of my guys I thought would be a great add for a season or two while Neesh gets that bum arm of his back…
Thanks for the great analysis Joe. I hope that most Twins fans are off the Wigginton bandwagon by this point. What’s the point of getting another below average defensive third baseman?
Harris is young, with plenty of room for improvement. Plus, maybe this is the year to bring up Hughes and see what he can do.
I’d like to see the Twins make a run at someone soon. If Casilla, Buscher and Harris all get settled on the fact that they are going to be nearly everyday players, they will slide a bit…and if the pitching doesn’t meet the expectations they set last year, we could open the season closer to the bottom of the central than the top…then Mr. Smith will hear it!
Bottom line Wiggs is better in every facet of the game than Blake, and we offer 35 year old Blake a 15 million over 2 years. So we shouldn’t be cpmplaining about Wiggs asking price! I think the Twins are angry cause they could have had Wiggs cheaper last year but got Lamb instead…see how bad personnel desicions can snowball!
jama i think Blake is as good as Wigg offensively but way better defensively that’s why the Twins feel he’s not worht the money. I think Harris could suprise a lot of people next year if he got a chance to play the same position everyday. FREE BRENDAN HARRIS
Sorry LEN3 and Joe, but you have both bought into the Twins “way of doing things” and it’s completely wrong…
Like most have pointed out, you dont pay a career utility INF (i.e. bench player) $4M a year to do something that we have 3 other guys that can do, just because our Manager is short-sighted and can only see him make “spectacular web gems” in the field… then turn around and say a guy that has averaged 23HRs per yr over 8 seasons (not all at Minute Maid Park) is too expensive to fill a GLARING HOLE on this team, which is an inability to hit the long ball and the teams complete denial that it is important in winning in the league today… it terms of offense, Wigginton would quickly become #3 or #4 on the team w/ offensive production… he is basically your right handed Kubel, and despite being age 31, is still far younger than most “veterans” we look at signing…
This is nothing but stubborn ignorance on the part of the FO, and it’s getting old… as you can tell by most posts on here today…
Good point, jama. If it’s okay to offer Blake the money (even though he’s not 14 times better than Harris) why is it not okay to at least find out about Wiggington. Again, I’m not saying we should pay money just for the sake of paying money, but the club’s offseason has been a confusing one so far.
Give Lyon a 1 year deal. It would benefit both sides. It would (hopefully) let Lyon raise his value and it will allow Slama and Delaney one more year to develop in the minors and also helps replace Neshek.
Then again, they probably won’t do it because it makes too much sense.
I think Smith is gun shy after Livan, Lamb, Everett, and Delmon Young for Garza/Bartlett.
Harris is 28, not young at all for a baseball player.
Because it was never “right” for the Twins with Blake either. You’ll note they did not sign him. It was all just talk.
I like Joe and La Velle, I like their work generally, but this offseason it seems more like they are PR for the Twins than critical analysts.
So Blake, at 4 years older, is that much better than Wigginton? It was okay to pursue Blake and not Wigginton?
Sounds like some Kool-Aid excuses to me.
And Nicky Punto is worth the $4 mil he’ll be collecting the next two seasons?
Ah, well. I guess it will be another fun year of betting the over on throwing errors made by Buescher.
Mike - u are more than correct… it’s like no on will say anything negative about what they are doing, when they were offering Blake a contract, all we read was it was such a good idea, now with Wigginton available, we first heard how we’ve liked him for years, now that the Twins have decided to not get him, they are trying to convince him how it’s a bad idea because we have Harris and Buscher to platoon! WHICH IS IT??!
should read “convince US”
ANYWAYS: It’s about power and hitting HRs, the Twins don’t like power hitters anymore (for reasons not yet explained to the rest of us)… Third Base is a power hitting position, just like RF and 1B are… you want to be strong up the middle for Defense, C, SS, 2B, CF… power should come from the other spots… we have the DEF, get us the power!
Upon further review:
The Twins are just not jiggy with Wiggy!
Whatever happend to the Delmon Young and “someone else” for Garret Atkins and Houston Street? Was that mere speculatioin or was that a possibility? And, has Joe Crede landed anywhere? Sorry, been out of town awhile.
We’ve got one more last chance to swoop in and blow Furcal away with an offer he can’t refuse. Gonna take a HUGE sales job though. Then use LNP as supersub. Take some of those worthless at bats away. Then we don’t have to take a flyer on Wiggy, who Houston doesn’t want.
that was terrible sane
MarkW they dont like power hitters because they lose too much money on homerun balls kept by fans. That’s just smart business.
people piss and moan about wigginton’s splits, but i know a player whose average was 67 points higher, obp was 38 points higher, and slg% was 130! points higher at home than on the road last year, and he plays his games at the hitting paradise known as the H.H.H. Metrodome. And we are glad to have him, I think. You don’t have to play in a bandbox to have better home numbers.
Wow. Some pretty angry folks on the boards.
Could it be that the Twins have actually scouted Ty Wigginton and feel that he is not worth the $21 million that a lot of you are so willing to toss around? Just because they would like to upgrade at 3B doesn’t mean you should overpay for a player.
Bones,
“that was terrible sane”
“Terrible” was what I was shooting for.
Unapologetic propaganda from Joe C, justifying Smith’s complete and total failure to improve the ballclub, in the process exposing as a total lie the idea that the new stadium will result in higher payroll.
How about some real journalism? Your readers aren’t stupid enough to believe that the Twins should be applauded for adding the great Brandon Lyon while leaving all other needs unaddressed.
Pete, given that they have not upgraded 3B in a decade, I’m thinking this is a trend, not a “not wiggy” thing with the Twins. Hence, I’m unhappy they continue this trend. For me, at least, it isn’t about Wiggy, but about refusing to try to get players that fill gaps (which they tried to do with Young last year). Livan filled no gap, nor did Monroe. They tried with Lamb, but failed there too.
The common denominator is that they are going after guys that were never that good, instead of going for guys that are already good.
If they later actually try to upgrade the team, then I’ll be happy. But, this is a decade long trend….
i like harris (but at ss instead of punto.
smith has put this team back to the time when nobody wanted to play here. when sweet Jos’s contract is up you wonder if they will pay him.
john,
Its not a total lie, YET.
That’s probably coming on July 31, after which there will be no (further?) player acquisitions.
The Twins are set all around for next season. But, I would have no objection to a signing of Crede, but other than that, let’s just keep it all the same.
Neither Blake nor Wigginton are worth signing. You don’t sign a mediocre 36 year old to the kind of contract that Blake wanted…3 years, 6 mil per. And you don’t sign someone for 7-8 mil/year when they have home/road splits like Wigginton does. Either signing would have turned out poorly.
This team has limited resources. Is paying $4MM for your number 8/9 hitter really a good idea, when you could have someone from the minors play SS and be your number 8/9 hitter? Wouldn’t it make more sense to apply that money to a hitter that is in or approaching his prime (by combining that money with other money)?
When you have limited resources, you need to leverage those as much as possible. Spending on middle relievers and #8 hitters makes no sense at all when you don’t have a 3B or anyone in the OF with power. Big rocks first people, big rocks first.
I have to agree with the Twins on Wigginton if he really wants Blake money. I mean come on the guy was just cut and no one is really jumping through hoops to give him $7M/year. But I am upset that the Twins still aren’t doing anything. Signing Punto to $4M/year was just stupid. I can’t believe they couldn’t have got him for less and Tolbert,Harris and Buscher all fit the bill. Now what I would like/love to see the Twins do is step outside the box and trade for Atkins and Street and SIGN DUNN. Dunn doesn’t cost you any players or picks and the money should be ok since he seems to be on the back burner. For someone that hit 40 HRs it seems odd even with all the Ks. Offer Colorado Cuddy, Blackburn/Perkins and a ML. Sign Dunn and you have a solid lineup and bullpen issue help.
MMmmmm…..I’ve said this before, but I’ll bet the Indians swoop in and sign Wiggy.
And Wiggy will subsequently hit about 5 bombs off the Twins this season. Book it.
Terrible reporting. Is any player a 500% upgrade over a previous player? No! If they were, he’d have to drive in 455 runs. The point is that Wiggington is a significant upgrade over the third baseman we have. He provides a right-handed bat with power that can protect Morneau in the lineup. He’s going to hit 25-35 HR’s with a solid average and OBP. Get over these road/home splits people. Almost all players hit better at home than on the road. Colorado is the only place that has consistently been a red flag when looking at home/road splits. Wiggy provides us with what we need, and if Cuddyer is worth $8 million a year, then Wiggy is worth at least $7 million.
Truth,
Blake was far better than mediocre this year.
If you really believe that he was mediocre, you weren’t paying attention to what he did for the Dodgers.
Truth be told…
You are probably right, neither would have worked out. Because the Twins would start pestering them and messing with their swings, so they can “Go The Other Way”, and play “Twins Baseball”.
Sorry LEN3 and Joe, but you have both bought into the Twins “way of doing things” and it’s completely wrong…
That wasn’t LEN3 posting before…that was a guy named “IV” with an offsite blog.
I would like to see LEN3’s take on this after saying that Wigginton would be a good fit.
I think Smith is gun shy after Livan, Lamb, Everett, and Delmon Young for Garza/Bartlett.
The only reason he’d be gunshy after Young/Garza is if he read comments from people on these blogs. (And took them to heart)
Judging by the last few weeks, I doubt that’s the case.
Blake hit .270 with 20 homeruns, and played a mediocre (at best) third base. He’s 36. Do you think he’ll get better, or worse?
Yep, worse. He wouldn’t have panned out.
Wigginton’s OPS at home last year: 1.081
Wigginton’s OPS on the road last year: .696 — almost as good as Nick Punto! Wigginton’s a disaster outside of Minute Maid Park.
Those two are very MEDIOCRE and not worth the cash or the years…
It’s not that I don’t like Buscher/Harris at 3B I think that they can handle it. I’m just confused because Wiggs can back-up at 2B and 1B and play 3B. Plus, he is the right handed pop we need in the line-up!
If we want to be as good as possible then we would land Wiggs, Crede, Dunn, Burrell, or some other Vet that’s not coming to mind to hit bombs from the right side of the plate and give your MVP some gotdang protection!!!
“But after June 17, Harris quietly batted .300/.362/.495.”
I disagree with the idea that Harris quietly hit .300. I was well aware of his nice second-half performance all along and was baffled why he rode the bench for weeks in the summer while Punto and Buscher soaked up all the playing time on the left side of the infield.
Izturas signed a 2 year 5 million dollar deal with the Orioles yesterday. He is right in line with Nick Punto as a ball player. Career .260 hitter with a .319 OB% and a just over .300 slg% except Izturas steals bases, and actually plays gold glove calibur SS (3rd best in the NL last year)… 2 years 5 million vs 2 years and 8.5 million. Izzy is arguably a better hitter, and a better fielder, and without question a better base stealer…
Thanks Bill Smith for the marvelous upgrades so far.
I have an idea. How about you don’t sign Casey Blake, or Ty Wiggington and just keep Buscher and Harris at 3rd Base… because we will upgrade through osmosis.
Bill Smith = Kevin McFailedabortion
Wigginton is a home park ball player. He did very well at home in Tampa too guys.
Could it just be that he’s good at home?
And also did you see his numbers inside domes?
So if Harris gets 500 atbats we are supposed to expect 30 doubles 20 homers and 95 RBI?
Truth be told…
Mauer’s road splits are significantly less than his home numbers. Would you get rid of him, were you a GM?
T- my bad, didn’t see that…
but yeah, i would like to see LEN3’s take on this, since he was all for going after Wigginton to fit our “need”
Like I said, they change their tune as soon as it’s the opposite view from FO management
it’s gotten really old, same song and dance since 2000.
Joe, I don’t understand measuring Wigginton against Harris when the plan is for a Buscher/Harris platoon in which Buscher would get the bulk of the playing time.
Good analysis Joe C. Wiggy splits are worrisome. Many MLB do better at home than away, but Wiggy’s -100 pts in almost every differential, and offered only 8HR’s away. The #’s canont be ignored as inconsequential. And the #’s lead one to wonder what kind of production we would get from him: Minute Maid #’s, or everywhere else #’s? 7 or 8mill per season is a lot to risk for somebody who may grossly disappoint. I’m not a fan of the Harris/Buscher option, nor am I a fan of the Twins’ reticent to spend, but on this one, I think they would be foolish to risk that kind of money given Wiggie’s #’s.
Now, back to lunch. Have a great day everyone, at least, if you get to be inside all day….
mike -
Saying the Twins haven’t upgraded 3B in a decade is a bit of a stretch. Koskie left after 2004. In 2005 the Twins tried Cuddyer there. Didn’t work out. In 2006, they tried Batista, getting a home run hitter that everyone seems to be clamoring for now. Predictably, that failed. But Nick Punto played a very solid 3B after taking over for Batista, posting decent average and on base numbers while playing good defense. So in 2007, they went into the season with Punto entrenched at third. Punto responded with one of the worst offensive seasons in recent memory. So for 2008, they decided to upgrade by bringing in Mike Lamb. Unfortunately, Lamb failed as well, although he did show some signs of being the player the Twins thought they were going to get when they gave him a 2 year deal. During the season they tried to deal for Beltre, but Seattle wasn’t going to move him.
So all of that brings us to this offseason, where the Twins have been asking about Atkins and Beltre, gave a solid offer to Blake, and don’t seem to be interested in Wigginton.
I think the Twins have tried to upgrade the 3B position. It just happens that when they put someone at third, they fail to live up to expectations.
The FO stated that they needed a right handed power hitter at third.Unless both Cuddy and DY can supply the power at their positions,we are in trouble.We can’t expect the same success we had last year driving in runners with 2 outs!
Gardy must not agree about how great he was late in the year. He got all of 37 at bats in September.
As a matter of fact, when he was playing nearly every day (early in the year), his numbers were worse. I’m guessing that means he’s probably not an everyday player…
I love salad.
My point was that they keep trying to upgrade key positions on the cheap, on guyes that were never good, or were past their prime. Substitute DH for 3B for the first half of the decade. Punto was not a good 3B, even in his career year his offensive numbers were waaaaaaaaaaaaay below the league numbers. He only looks good that year when compared to SS or his career, not when compared to other 3B.
Joe C.= Koolaid Man OH YAH
Wigginton does not play third base well enough to be the everyday guy for the Twins. Brendan Harris is a better defensive third baseman
This is a pretty unsubstantiated statement.
2008 RZR @3B: Wiggy .732, Blake: .720, Harris .707, Buscher .688
So if Wiggy is not good enough on the field to play every day for the Twins, this means that Blake shouldn’t have been and that Harris and (god forbid) Buscher are not either…
Methinks that this is a FO excuse that got propagated here. They either need to find a different one or they need to learn how to evaluate players better.
Truth,
Blake played excellent (not mediocre)3B for the Dodgers.
That is why they re-signed him to a 3-year-contract at age 36.
His HR totals since leaving the Twins are 17, 28, 23, 19, 18 and 21.
The mediocre third basemen, of which you must be speaking, all played for the Twins during that period.
Mark: LEN and Joe have both voiced some surprise over certain situations. LEN I believe more than others.
But at the same time, they also need to try and provide some reasoning behind what the Twins are doing.
I agree that JoeC’s post reads a little bit like toeing the company line, but sometimes all they can do is say “Well, they didn’t sign Wigginton…here’s the best I can come up with for why”.
Hey, I’d love to have the 29 year old version of Blake…I’m just worried about the 36 year old version. I mean, he can’t get better going forward, right? And I can’t say I’ve personally studied Blake’s defensive capabilities - but everything I’ve ever heard has described him as mediocre defensively, and the Indians had him playing outfield…they wouldn’t have done that if he was great (or even good) defensively.
Blake’s a huge gamble for a 3 year contract, at 36.
“Izzy is arguably a better hitter”
I’d like to see that argument.
Nick Punto has a career OPS+ of 74 - which takes into account his HORRIBLE 2007 campaign. Cesar Izturis has ONE season in his career with an OPS+ higher than that. Izturis is a terrible hitter.
The Twins are dreaming if they think all of the first year guys can have similar or better years next year. Gomez,DY,Span,Casilla,Buscher..that is a lot to hope on. Why not get a proven veteren in DUNN. He has hit 40+ homers for the last 6 years. An he is only turning 30 next year. A four year deal for 30-35M out to do it. Adds pop to the lineup. Makes the bench stronger with Kubel there. Makes an OF able to be part of a trade for bullpen/3B help.
true, the reasoning seems to be lacking as of late.. perhaps they are just as tired as we all are about the situation(s).
And about the home/road splits and related junk, here is Wiggy’s career slash line in the Metrodome:
.314/.368/.486
does it look better than this:
.271/.342/.479 (Morneau’s career line in the done)
or this:
.262/.326/.336 (Buscher’s career line in the dome)
or this:
.263/.319/.408 (Harris’ career line in the dome)
?
Enough with that garbage for excuses. A simple ‘the Twins do not like him’ would be enough. No need to try to make him a. a lesser player and b. a worse alternative than what they already have, because it ain’t flying…
Truth,
My only objection is to your categorization of Blake as “mediocre” LAST YEAR.
I can live with the Twins passing on offering him a 3-yr contract.
So because Wiggy has a lower OPS away from home we should stay away from him…ok. Did anyone notice his OPS in domes was 1.133 with 14 HR’s in 156 AB’s??? It was also .814 in 2007 16 HR’s in 286 AB’s and .905 in 2006 19 HRs in 245 AB’s. He obviously likes playing indoors. Sign him up.
Another answer on this BS from BS is that they don’t want to give up draft picks and any young starters. Then spend the money. There are a ton of players still out in FA that could help at not high prices as teams seem to be reeling in salaries with the exception of Boston, LA,NY. Not all players can go there.
thrylos -
“This is a pretty unsubstantiated statement.
2008 RZR @3B: Wiggy .732, Blake: .720, Harris .707, Buscher .688″
2007 RZR @ 3B:
Wiggy - .710 w/ Houston, .643 w/ Tampa Bay
2006 RZR @ 3B:
Wiggy - .590 w/ Tampa
2005 : .535 w/ Pittsburgh
2004 : .656 w/ New York Mets
“And about the home/road splits and related junk, here is Wiggy’s career slash line in the Metrodome:”
35 at bats is hardly enough to make any sort of judgment about how he hits in the Metrodome. You know that.
Pete D,
what you are showing is that Wiggy improves as a third baseman last year, and the improvement has been pretty linear throughout his career as he learned to play the position better: .535, .590, .643, .710, .732. I would take 2004 as an outlier.
Blake mediocre is harsh. He played quite well and the Dodger’s were happy to have him back.
i have wiggy on my EA sports baseball game. he can barely hit the ball out of the infield. on the other hand, dustin mohr is awesome!…i say bring him back!
Pete D,
alright, 35 AB (38 PA) might not be enough to convince you, how about these spits, then:
in domes (923 PA)
.299/.354/.548
on artificial turf (680 PA)
.294/.349/.500
thrylos -
Or, could it be that for some reason, 3B is easier to play in Minute Maid Park?
I really don’t know the answer. Is he getting better at playing 3rd? Perhaps. But if you are willing to assume that he is getting better as he plays the position more, why can you not also assume the same about someone like Harris?
Bill Smith is not interested in Ty Wigginton as the Twins 3B.
No one was interested in Bill Smith as GM when he got that job.
NOW, after a year, we are are even less interested.
*cheap* *cheap* *cheap*
I hear the Pohlad crickets again.
thrylos -
The dome/turf splits are a compelling argument to sign him to a one year deal. But, given that they are moving outside in a year, wouldn’t that then hurt his overall value?
The quality of 3rd baseman out there that the Twins are going after are getting worse and worse to the point of saying why even bother.
Neither is the last 4 months of the year for Harris, but that seems ok to use. In his career he has 22 HRs (I think it is around 320 or so games, but I can’t recall now).
This whole “take out his two bad months and he looks pretty good” arguement people make for Harris and Young is funny. How about we take out every player’s worst two months, and compare Young and Harris to everyone that way?
jimmybee,
Do you have anything else to say, other than the boring, headache-inducing, mind-numbing “Pohlad is cheap” drone?
Seattle is definitly rebuilding.I think their demands for Beltre will come down.Offer Harris,Blackburn or Perkins,add Swarzak or Humber and Revere or Morales to play center in their future.Boras should not be a factor
sid do you have anything to say to people other then to belittle peoples ideas. I never said he was cheap today
Can anyone tell me Cuddaver’s fielding percentage at 3rd in comparison to Wigginton’s
It’s hard to believe after last year that people still feel that this team is so bad. They got a little tired towards the end last year or the would have gone to the playoffs. A hitting 3rd baseman would be nice but what they have should be better then last year on growth alone. Some bullpen help, and the starting pitching working more innings, they should be able to fight to win the divison or possible the wildcard. Most city’s would kill for a team this bad.
jimmy bee,
If you aren’t Loco Gato, I apologize.
I can see the Twins saving money this year on Salary and making an even bigger splash in 2010 for their new stadium. They were technically rebuilding last year, and in my opinion, played way over their heads. I expect a regression for ‘09, slightly better than their September turned out to be. I wouldn’t be depressed if they played .500 ball this year.
I expected them to dump Cuddyer, which still could happen. The Punto signing wasn’t surprising, but I was perplexed by the amount he got… should have maybe been a million less per.
Joe please don’t become just a PR guy for the failings of Bill Smith to improve this team. I used to have much more respect for you then that. They led us to believe that they wanted Blake and offered all that money but Wigginton is not worth it?? A power hitting right handed third baseman who is so much younger then Blake and about the same defensively?? Then tell me why Joe that we are pursuing Lyon when he has that salary and had such a poor second half? He is also a type B free agent and we will surrender a draft pick. Why wouldn’t we go after Joe Nelson instead? He doesn’t cost us a draft pick, great fastball, younger, and a good teamate to boot. I just do not understand the job that Bill Smith does here.
Think for a moment….Why are the Astros cutting Wigginton loose? If he were that valuable he would not have been rendered……….He’s a liability.
Buscher is the man. Why do you not think he will be improved this Year?
RBIs and Save Changes? Going a bit old school on us Joe. Those are some pretty weak metrics to judge these players.
Also, if Wiggington isn’t worth a 500 percent cost, that’s not to say the Twins don’t have the money. They should and can overpay for a need. Why not sign him and have him fight for the role. From what I can tell, signing him wouldn’t crowd out other signings or contract extensions.
I have been known to see rick flair around. I think that name (Loco Gato) means crazy cat. sid I try and be original and even I am getting tired of “Pohlad-Cheap” Comments.
Jeff,
Were you the “Jeff” with the phony “Wigginton signing with Cleveland” reports last night?
If you were, you should deny it!
No Sid I was not and I did not read that. I want the Twins to sign Wigginton and go after Joe Nelson. I have no idea what the Indians are doing (except for Kerry Wood) but I bet they are doing everything they can to improve there club.
[…] Around the Majors – […]
I would be happy by not signing Wigginton and letting him go elsewhere. What is his fielding % at 3rd in comparison to Cuddaver’s
simsypoo - Nathan is not getting any younger, and the Twins’ best or 2nd best player is a catcher - a position that has a century long trend of breaking down. They can keep waiting for the future, but at some point guys get hurt, age, break down.
I’d be ok if they banked the $20MM they supposedly have this year, and signed two great players next year to contracts with $10MM signing bonuses (to keep their year over year contract expenses down). But, we all know that won’t happen. They’ll pocket that profit, not save it and spend it next year.
Geno — nice arguement to go after Beltre. The non-trade clause that Boras somehow got invoked in Seattle is troublesome. I would gladly give up Cuddy, blackburn/perkings and another minor leaguer for Beltre if we can work out a 3-4 year contract. Otherwise it isn’t worth the trouble
Here we go again, the Twins front office telling fans they’re going to add payroll and solidify the left side of the INF and BP. Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah….Wiggington is a defensive liability, but Blake would have been a “nice” player had the Twins wanted to offer the 3rd year. But the Twins front office hesitates and then settles. How much money dod this team waste on the likes of Livan Hernandez, Sydney Ponson, Ramon Ortiz, RonDL White, Craig Monroe, Mike Lamb, Adam Everett and Tony Batista over the past couple of years?
Wiggington’s career fielding % at 3B is .951
John Castino,
Mucho Deniro.
Wigginton just say no advertisement has been brought to you by jimmy bee
Interesting enough, Beltre’s career fielding %…. .956
The Astros are letting Wiggy go because they are trying to cut payroll from 120 million to 100 million and he was looking at a $3-4 million raise.
I don’t think anyone is saying this team is bad, and they will probably compete for the division title, but they are not a world series contender. A good third baseman would definitely make them the division favorite and possibly a world series contender. Also, we had a lot of players (Span, Buscher, Casilla) who had phenomenal years (by their standards)and could very possibly not duplicate their success again this year. I love the Twins and think they are a solid team, but a third baseman with pop would probably put them over the top (that rhymed by coincidence, not on purpose).
John Castino can you get Cuddavers 3rd base fielding %
Of course Beltre would be my first choice as our thirdbaseman for the next few years. If we cannot sign him to an extension he is not worth what we would have to give up. I am sure Seattle will still want a ton of prospects for him and may not even move him until the trade deadline anyway. A one year or half year rental for him does not make sense to me.
Cuddyer…ugh….. .941
Joe please explain to me why the Twins would be pursuing Lyon and not go after Joe Nelson hard?? That just does not make sense to me at all.
The one thing about Beltre is his FP improved over the years. Beltre was at .964 last year when he won the Gold Glove. Wiggington has never been consistantly in the mid .950’s.
Et tu, Joe C? Rationalizing what they are not doing while bringing in record revenues? Even Forbes’ April ‘08 estimates of revenue (+18 mil over ‘07) and operating income (+9 mil over ‘07) were way too low, and setting player expenses at 81 (+5 mil over ‘07) wasn’t close - even with the bonuses paid!
Now they’re sitting at 60 mil on the 25-man roster. Doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out where the money’s going - right back into the Twins generous 167 mil “contribution”. Doesn’t take a rocket scientist reporter to call them on it, either.
sorry, Wiggy has been constantly in the mid .950’s
The Twins seem to find something wrong with every free agent that makes some sense to sign. Are we really trying to get better????? I am still crying for another bat, we keep talking about this year in year out.
On the Simpson’s television show Montgomery Burns gets the best team money can by to play for him. Why isn’t Monty getting us a good 3rd baseman
So I know everyone is tired of my complaining (my style and repetition)…
But when we here that the management is going to do something to improve this team, and then they don’t.
Doesn’t Bill Smith and the gang deserve what they get?
I mean we have Kevin McHale who is now blaming blogging and bloggers for coaches in professional sports getting fired so quick now.
If he’s right… then isn’t it our job as fans to push for Bill Smith to resign?
BC Beneke BS is full of BS
The thing with Bill Smith is that it’s not just him. It’s the entire front office and their philosphy of…ummm…well, it’s to not sign free agents unless they are journeyman and extremely cheap. He’s got the same guys in his ear that Terry Ryan had (including Terry Ryan). It wouldn’t matter who the GM was, we would still be in this same situation because of the front office.
The Twins payroll is hovering right around $65M. There is plenty of room to add Beltre and/or Atkins and Street if you make sure to get rid of Cuddy. Come on Twins get with program and don’t waste the year waiting for the new stadium.
McHale might be right on that one. Many people are fired before their time, before they were given a chance to really succeed. Of course, many people (like, say, McHale) also have their jobs too long, even with years of stats to prove they aren’t good at their jobs….
BFE: Teams may be reeling in salaries…but that’s not stopping players from still asking for them.
We’ve still got several big name players floating out there unaccounted for (Tex, Manny for starters).
It’s possible that Wigginton may want upwards of 8 or 9 million right now, but that could come down if he sees nobody’s willing to go that high.
From what I understand, the Twins wanted to approach him with a contract about where they were with Blake (I’d imagine they’d have gone three years instead of 2 + option)
From reading LEN’s comment it appears he wouldn’t have been comfortable with Wigginton getting more than 7 mil a year…so I’m guessing he’ll likely agree with the decision to pass for now (and have the paper trail as evidence that it was his stance all along)
Once the top level free agents start landing…all of those teams that wanted their services will have to look elsewhere, which could open up new avenues for trade.
BC — I have to agree with you about BS needs to go. You can’t start your offseason goals as needing to improve the leftside of your infield, bullpen and add power and by the end of the year not done any of it. As for McFail there isn’t enough room to type how bad he is.
BFE: There’s plenty of room financially to bring in Beltre or Atkins, but there may not be room in the roster to patch up the hole it’ll create to bring them in.
Cuddyer will likely NOT be what either team will want in return. Especially Seattle, which made some BAAAAD contract decisions last year.
Jeff -
Because Joe Nelson is 5 years older than Brandon Lyon, missed all of 2007, had a career year at the age of 33, and has 10 career saves, while Lyon had 28 last year alone and has been decent for at least 5 of the 7 years he has thrown?
McHale might be right on that one. Many people are fired before their time, before they were given a chance to really succeed
Dwane Casey??? Dumb McFail
Wait wait…
You can’t start your offseason goals as needing to improve the leftside of your infield, bullpen and add power and by the end of the year not done any of it.
Except the offseason isn’t over yet. And yeah, I know it gets said a lot…but holy crap is it true.
T- I know that we will have to include more then just Cuddy but my point is that getting rid of his salary allows for more room. Lets start with a basic starting point of Cuddy, Buscher, Perkins/Blackburn and one or two minor leagers. Should be able to get you Beltre and/or Atkins and Street. An all you are really giving up is one SP. An extra OF and one or two MLs
Can we get a gov. refund on that Twins Stadium if they don’t want to spend some bucks on making the team better?
BFE -
Why in the world would either the Rockies or the Mariners take on Cuddyer’s contract if they are looking to move Beltre or Atkins to - I assume - save payroll?
Cuddaver’s contract is a real killer. Dead end contract
I think it’s unfair to criticize Joe and LEN3 for explaining why the Twins aren’t jumping aboard the Ty Wigginton bandwagon. Most likely, Joe and LEN3 are starting with the assumption that the folks in the front office are smart baseball people who want to have a winning team. Reasonable. They also know that the Twins won’t pay above a certain number of dollars for multiple years. This is the Twins’ philosophy, good or bad- and they’ll stick with it as long as they continue to win. If you start from there, it’s easy to understand WHY the Twins org. does something and how it makes sense for them, even if you don’t necessarily agree with it. We all want the same end: a championship. We just disagree about the best way to get there.
Also, I don’t agree with offering 10 million dollars to Wigginton. Morneau’s making 8.5 mil, Mauer’s at 6.5 mil, and Nathan’s making 6 mil. How fair would it be to offer 10 million to a guy who won’t be nearly as valuable or productive? You’re going to give 1/6 or so of the payroll to one guy, and that guy is Ty Wigginton? Really?
Cuddyer’s contract is not going to prevent the Twins from adding to payroll. Remember he hit 24 hrs and 103 RBI’s just over a year ago. Todays market would dictate a contract for him at about 10 million a year. Yikes!
We overpay a lot of guys, Cuddyer for one, Lamb and Hernandez were others, we never should have given Monroe that money… and Punto this year is being overpaid…
So to overpay for Wigginton would fall right in line with the rest of those signings… it’s just he has proven to avg about 23HRs per year, something we frown upon having in a corner INF spot.
It wouldn’t take $10M a year to get the guy, maybe $7M, and I wouldn’t go over that… as I’ve mentioned before, 3 yrs at $18M would do it for me… not that much of a stretch.
The worst part about it is they aren’t even going to ATTEMPT to offer the guy a contract… that’s what ticks me off the most I guess…
and u can find his career avg stats right here:
“as I’ve mentioned before, 3 yrs at $18M would do it for me… not that much of a stretch.”
And if he was asking for that, they might listen. However, if he is looking for 3 years and $21 million, are you still on board? What about 3 years and $24 million?
PREDICTION: [or call it a wild guess]Harris will do great both ways at 3rd, because he can hit right handed pitching. That means he could play regularly over there and that’s all he would need, [besides spring training at 3rd] to become a solid 3rd sacker both ways. Buscher just doesn’t look like he’d be a Twin type on defense. Looks like a good hitter though, [so far] I love this hang on to a good young team approach. It’s like old time baseball, come back with the same guys and get better, which they really should.
HAVE FUN!!! GO TWINS !!!
I’m very passionate about baseball. I’ve been a Twins fan since Harmon, Zoilo, Battey, Allison and company. It seems to me that the Twins are one impact player away from being competitive with the “big guys”. I’ve been a big booster for Rafeal Furcal this offseason. Everything I’ve read indicates his back surgery was a complete success. It,s called a microdiscectomy and is fairly routine nowadays. They remove parts of a herniated disc that press on nerves. It was minimally invasive and he is totally cleared for work. It’s probably too late now but the Twins could have got him for about 44 Million/4years with a good sales pitch. His stats speak for themself. He turned 31 years old last Oct. He is not injury prone as evidenced by the games played throughout his carreer. He came back more than strong from his surgery statwise. Savvy vet, good D, good at “quarterbacking the infield and by all accounts a good clubhouse guy. This guy should pay for himself. With greater marketing ammo for the team, more buts in the seats, a calming influence for the teams seemingly endlessly young group of infielders, greater probability to go further in the playoffs, and a real (IMHO) chance of participation in a World Series in the next 3 or 4 years. With him not offered arbitration he will require no compensation to the Dodgers. His aquisition seems like a no brainer to me.
There are a lot of intelligent and passionate fans that post here. It’s always a pleasure to read your comments. Can someone please explain to me why in the F this wasn’t even considered by the Twins.
Best options available at 3B still out there
1. Joe Crede
2. Ty Wigginton
3. Garciaparra
SS
1. Furcal
2. Cabrera
3. Vizquel
RP (non closer)
1. Juan Cruz
2. Brandon Lyon
3. Joe Nelson
4. Chad Cordero (coming off injury)
5. Tom Gordon (old, expensive)
6. Keith Foulke (Could Anderson revive his career?)
7. Will Ohman (L)
8. Scott Proctor (Could Anderson help him?)
9. Jamey Wright (another Anderson reclomation project)
10. Brian Shouse (401 years old, but still getting it done)
——
I would also look at Saito though he’s technically a closer… at 39 years old I think he’d be happy to take a 1 year 2 million dollar contract with 2 million dollars in incentives.
Hello Swannie…
how’s it going?
Wigginton is not an everyday third baseman and that’s what the Twins want to sign. Lamb was not an everyday third baseman and they took a chance and ended up eating his contract. If you’re going to have a not-everyday-third baseman, might as well let Harris and Buscher platoon.
chill out guys. lost in the last season’s “horrible” moves by bill smith was that the club drastically improved from the year before. save your whining for if the twins fail to build upon this year’s success.
staying with the guys from ‘08 might not be the worst idea ever… some people just need to step up in the bullpen. you KNOW the twins will sign 4-5 free agent pitchers to come into spring and battle for a relief spot… and guess what, that strategy usually works for the twins as one guy emerges as a quality arm.
be patient. after all, isn’t that what baseball is all about?
“but the Twins could have got him for about 44 Million/4years with a good sales pitch.”
Why do you think this? Oakland tried as hard as it could to get him, and he would rather take an option year to go to either Atlanta or Los Angeles. But hey, I’m sure “Come and play in the snow in April!” would have got him here.
Hey BC: Work, work, work. Glad to be gainfully employed still, too.
Interesting that Crede tops your list- you prefer him to Wigginton?
Mighty Casey, the Tigers and Indians greatly regressed last year. That is certainly one of the primary reasons they had a record that could contend for the division. Do you not expect them to get better?
mike-
did the tigers and/or indians address their pitching issues yet??
Pete
I think Furcal is bright. I think he could see, with the avg age and ability of this team, that he might be the guy to put them over the top. I do think the Twins would have to offer a “premium” for the snow though. This is where the sales pitch comes in. I don,t believe Oakland is near as close to the WS as the Twins.
Swannie,
I’m at work and stuck online because work is too slow. Know of anyone that could use a massage, chiropractic, or injury rehabilitation? lol ugh.
I have Crede ahead of Wigginton because Crede (when healthy) is a top 4 defensive 3rd baseman and a 30 homer hitting number 5 hitter in this lineup that suddenly makes this lineup, and it’s defense tremendously better.
BC: Is Furcal still on the market? I thought Atlanta had gobbled him up?
And with Crede’s back and Garciaparra’s…everything…I would rather go with Wigginton or make a trade.
Scott Proctor got abused like a little boy at the Catholic church of Joe Torre.
BC,
Why are you picking on McHale?
No one drafts better than he does.
Brandon Roy, OJ Mayo and Mario Chalmers are all great draft picks!
Swannie,
though I did just get my information to become a part of ASCAP as I found out that 3 of my songs are going to be on iTunes in late January. So that aught to bring in about 4 dollars a month, lol.
The worst part about it is they aren’t even going to ATTEMPT to offer the guy a contract… that’s what ticks me off the most I guess…
The Twins ATTEMPTED to offer contracts to both Hunter and Santana last year.
All you’re doing is changing the common complaint from “Twins didn’t even bother to try” to “Twins just lowballed to say they tried”.
T
Everything I’ve read says that he and his agent are mulling over a 3 year offer from the Dodgers, and are interested in a 3 year return to the Braves.
From the Braves side of it I read that he had already agreed to a deal…
I guess until I see that he signed on the dotted line…
T,
Furcal is still unsigned.
Its the Braves and the Dodgers chasing him.
Paul -
And perhaps he feels that the Dodgers and Braves are closer to the World Series than the Twins are, and wants to play some place comfortable.
Or, perhaps he doesn’t care about the World Series at all. Perhaps his priorities are location first, money second, winning third?
All we know is that Oakland offered him a 4 year deal, and he didn’t accept, and would rather get a 3 year deal with a vesting option from either the Braves or Dodgers. I’m sure if the Twins really wanted him, they could have given him 4 years, $80 million and he probably would have come here. But 4 years $44 million? I don’t think it’s enough.
Why is third base so hard to fill for the Twins? I assume it’s the Kurse of Koskie. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Twins sign/trade for someone off the blog radar in the next few months. Until then, there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth- which is fine as long as it isn’t taken out on Joe and LEN3 (i.e. shooting the messenger).
I would never invite Furcal to Thunder Island.
Sid,
Ndi Ebi, Will Avery, Paul Grant, Chris Richard instead of Gray from Chicago…
Please, for every great pick he has made and traded away for garbage he’s screwed it up by actually drafting 3 times as much garbage!
Then worse half the time he signs them to long term ridiculous contracts!
Like knowing you have 6-7 draft picks possibly for this next season and then resigning fringe players to multi-year contracts to keep the roster filled with crap instead of new “talent”
If you people think I’m cruel towards Bill Smith and Nick Punto… go over to the Wolves blog. If the wolves front office read my comments we’d hear about how they all went looking for the space ship behind the Hail-bop comment if you know what I’m saying.
Mighty Casey
At least there is 2 of us that agree that standing pat, may not be such a bad approach. Hey, if we’re wrong, then bring out the dollars you haven’t spent at the trade deadline in 09 or during next offseason to boost the new stadium kick off in 2010.
Also, some of the good young players aren’t going to be at 1/2 a mil per forever. Salt some away for them.
HAVE FUN !!! GO TWINS !!!
BC: Must be nice to be a musician who’s “paid to play.” That’s what my dad used to proudly say when I was a church organist. Oh, the glamour 
Pete ,
You may be right. But he turned down 4 yrs from Oakland and is deciding between 3 yrs plus option from Atlanta and 2 yrs from LA. I think Atlanta is a long ways from the powerhouses of old and LA offended him with their nontendering him coupled with their subsequent contract offer.
Swannie,
How could there be someone off the blog radar? We’ve discuss everything this side of who is playing 3rd base in the Mexican league or the Japanese league.
If they get someone off of our radar that would be the very worst thing they could do… they did that with Batista!
Buscher/Harris is much better than going off of our radar, lol.
Lars - Cuddyer had his big year in 2006, that was just over 2 years ago. He’s not worth the money he’s paid. Remember the Twins used to go to arbritration with Lohse and overpaid him like 2 or 3 years in a row before giving up on him. The Twins business plan is to pay the guys that have stuck with the organization regardless of their production. And then to over pay for crappy FA’s they want to take a “chance” on rather than going after guys they target then to find out they actually produced for the teams they signed with.
Swannie… I am tone deaf, and at the very best can do a mean Tom Waits impersonation of a singer…
But I do like to brag about my writing skills from time to time, and worse than that because of my writing style I get killed here sometimes for it sounding like I know more than I am supposed to.
lol. I hope some day that these people realize I don’t take myself nearly as seriously as they think I do.
But yeah I’m a song writer… working with a couple of folk singers, a punk rock band out of New Orleans, and a pop band out of Australia… we got them on MTV Australia in 2007.
“If you people think I’m cruel towards Bill Smith and Nick Punto… go over to the Wolves blog”
100%.
Paul -
According to MLBtraderumors.com, they quote Joel Sherman who says the Dodgers have matched the 3 years, 30 million plus vesting option that the Braves had on the table.
Tom waits is awesome.
Gardy just said that there is pretty much no way that Cuddyer is going back to 3rd, and that they have no interest in signing another SS because they have Punto. He also talked highly of Valencia (who by most standards is at least 2 years away from the bigs)…
Ugh… speaking of music… the twins offseason sucks like the old Motley Crue song Same ole Situation…
The only thing about that which makes a good point is the initials
SOS!!!!
SAVE OUR SEASON (2009)
Contracts are something… $7M a yr is the most I would offer Wigginton (in response to Pete D)… plus incentives and a buyout if it went to 3 years… are you taking a risk? yes, you always do…
I didn’t like the Cuddyer contract, I didn’t want Hunter for 5+ years at any price, he wasn’t worth it… Santana, that’s a bigger story, I didn’t mind our offer and thought we could have gone 1 more year if we wanted to, but either way there were many other factors involved I’m sure…
I didn’t like the Nathan offer, but it hasn’t turned out to be terrible considering what other “closers” are getting… I think Mauer is underpaid and Punto is undeserving of what he’s getting…
those are just a few of my opinions, I’m sure not everyone wants to hear all the others.
Now back 2 who’s to old and washed up to play 3rd. Or who is cheap. The Royals have anyone in there farm system that we may want
Pete,
Thanks for the info. Kind of tells you something if he’s still undecided. I just wish the team would of made a run anyway. He’d be a great fit. And get Punto into a role he’s better suited for.
LNP is a utility player and is not meant to be starting for the Twins. He does better when used this way.
The offseason isn’t over yet, I get that, but it’s not hard to predict how it will go, based on the last 10 years of offseasons. 1) We don’t do anything and go to the season with a Harris/Buscher platoon. 2) We sign some journeyman who is cheap and has no chance of making a significant contribution (Lamb, Everett, Batista, Ponson, Livan, Ramon Ortiz, Cirillo, Rondell, Ruben Sierra!, Boone, Mulholland).
Cheap
Jimmy Bee…
Tom Waits is awesome, thank you. However… it’s pretty hard to market Tom Waits style vocalists, lol. Especially when they are tone deaf like me.
So as for the Cheap Twins… LaVelle is on KFAN… let’s see what he has to say.
I like Harris and always have. He by far the Twins best clutch hitter. The Twins are, howeve, trying to get by on the cheap after having been given a free stadium. Again I say, “Sign Crede!”. Move Harris to short and use Punto and Buscher as backups.
jimmy bee,
Was your cheap statement refering to why the Twins didn’t attempt to sign Furcal? Don’t you think he would’ve paid for himself?
I find it hard to believe that we’ve discussed EVERY possibility- I keep going back to the Young/Harris/Bartlett/Garza swap. Who saw that coming? It doesn’t seem like Smith is afraid to take chances- if we just give it time so the Texeiria and Manny dust settles (although I would be extremely happy to see Manny “retire”), he could surprise us. (Granted, it may not be in a good way.)
The front office goal this year has changed, or it should have- they signed some middling vets last year to hold down the fort in a “rebuilding” phase. Smith could be quite capable of acquiring a great player to push the Twins over the top, but we don’t know that based on last year. His moves were designed only to keep the team afloat and build for the future, not necessarily charge to the World Series with a bunch of rookies, a super-young rotation, and an inexplicably faltering bullpen. Please give it another year (or until the end of the offseason!) at least before calling for Smith’s head.
Tom Waits sounds as though his voice was projected out of someone that looked an awefull lot like Keith Richards. He sounds like a serial killer singing. If Michael Myers could carry a tune he would sing alot like Tom Waits
Canoozer: I like Brendan “Mr. Doubles” Harris, too. But I’m not sure I want him at shortstop when a groundball pitcher’s on the mound.
Paul yes. The only problem in bringing in Furcal is we underpaid for Mauer and Morneau and between them they batted there way to 2 batting titles and 1 almost 2 MVP awards. You can not pay a guy coming into the Twins clubhose more then those 2 players.
kind of a side-note on the wrong blog…
but does anyone else get chills when you hear PA yell out.. “and adrian peterson… is LOOSE!!!”
sorry
Mighty Casey says:
December 17th, 2008 at 4:19 pm
kind of a side-note on the wrong blog…
but does anyone else get chills when you hear PA yell out.. “and adrian peterson… is LOOSE!!!”
sorry
No only when I hear Lou Gherigs Luckiest Man Speach
LOL. i said chills, not tears.
Swannie… your information just came up on my computer again.
Do you think we could sue the Strib for lying when they say that our information will not be published as it certainly isn’t private if we can see it.
BC Beneke
Rob Anthony is on KFAN with La Velle, and if you read between the lines it looks like the Twins might be looking to move Cuddaver…
paraphrasing what he said:
‘we talked with some teams about trades and we have to wait for them to clear up salary’…
(unless Morneau, Mauer or Nathan are moving, the only player who has a big contract that would require salary removal to be traded is Cuddaver)
BC. Beneke,
which browser are you using? I got absolutely no such issues with Firefox
As for cuddaver, ship that dead weight out of here
Sorry Swannie… I was trying to make a point. lol.
jimmy bee,
That’s the only down side I could think of also. But don’t you think these 2 guys could be consulted first to get their stamp of approval? Wouldn’t they then welcome Furcal with open arms?
Paul maybe only if they sign a new deal to equal out the salaries. Highly doubtfull though
“unless Morneau, Mauer or Nathan are moving, the only player who has a big contract that would require salary removal to be traded is Cuddaver”
How about Punto?
PLEEEEEEEEEEEZE!
Internet Explorer
And yes I downloaded the patch, lol.
thyrlos-
were you serious about punto playing for italy? or was that a joke? jw..
How is Mornneau no making around 12 mill a year?
not ms spl
My question, Pete, is how the hell do the Twins know WHAT Wigginton wants?
They’ve had ‘little to no contact’ with him.
SHeesh.
Furcal Chooses Dodgers
Yeah, it’s a bummer. I got other random info a couple of times, too. Wish the Strib would fix the problem one of these days (I’ve got Safari, not Firefox).
The FO has gone from ‘We want to upgrade SS AND 3B’ to ‘We want to upgrade SS OR 3B’ to ‘We’re happy with doing nothing.’
Nick Punto has not stopped sucking. Brian Buscher has not suddenly become a good fielder or developed power. Brendan Harris has not suddenly become a masher. Nothing has changed to make them say this except that they’ve decided to be incredibly cheap both with $$ and with prospects. Yes, Blake cost more then he should have and so does Wiggy. That’s makes signing FA’s difficult and something to be done with caution. But when you have two gaping holes on the left side of infield, you have to suck it up and overpay to fill at least one of them. We have the payroll room, just do it. Instead we do nothing.
Well, one less player we have to worry about getting (Furcal)
“My question, Pete, is how the hell do the Twins know WHAT Wigginton wants?
They’ve had ‘little to no contact’ with him.
SHeesh.”
My guess would be that people inside baseball know what it is going to take to get Ty Wigginton.
And, of course, a ‘little’ contact could be - “We’re interested in what your client is looking for?” “Starting bids of 3 years, 21 million plus an option.” “Ok, thanks.”
I have been a Twins fan for 24 years. But this is enough. Its a complete scam: The front office plays off of low-expectations every year as an excuse not to make any major moves, not to spend any money, not to do, well anything for that matter. And I’m particularly tired of the Twin Cities media - the pussies they are. No one will hold this team accountable. Small market doesn’t mean you guys should swallow your “journalistic integrity” whatever the hell that is.
Mighty Casey,
dead serious: Punto will play for Italy in the WBC (the rules are you can play for any country that at least your grandparents were citizens.)
You’ll hear it in the TC mainstream media soon, but here is a link:
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20081123&content_id=3689880&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb
“Nick Punto has not stopped sucking. ”
Actually he did stop sucking last year. But, I’m sure you were too busy complaining to notice.
See ya later, A.! I’m sure you’ll be missed!
Oh well. There’s still the beauty of a well played game to enjoy. Even if the Twins don’t care to compete with the best
“The FO has gone from ‘We want to upgrade SS AND 3B’ to ‘We want to upgrade SS OR 3B’ to ‘We’re happy with doing nothing.’
I missed that last announcement.
Do you have the link?
antony just compared wigginton to mike lamb.
soooo…. might as well end that debate.
Yeah, I’m sorry. I don’t want to insult all the fans from Hibbing who value Punto’s “workman-like” attitude. My god, diving head first into first base after a weakly hit ground ball to second is what I look for in a ballplayer. Ty Cobb would be proud. And not to mention Cobb, but a career .252 hitter, with a resounding .319 OBP is going to lead us to the promised land. Silly me.
“Just remember it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for Pohlad to ever see another World Series”
antony is an idiot…
wow some guy named bob is going crazy on KFAN… I love it
Pete D has a point.
that guy that just called in was hilarious.. what an idiot.
Wigginton is not Lamb.
I am pretty tired of some of the “lack of thinking” that is going on in the front office when I see comments like that!
And these people get mad at me, lol.
I understand that diving headfirst into first is tantamount to allowing inside-the-park home runs to some, but I don’t think it’s as dire as everyone says. Punto doesn’t even do it that often. It’s just not that big of a deal, and it’s far better than Manny’s 30-second stroll to first.
Wait, that could be considered “lack of thinking.” I may be in trouble.
No, Pete D. Punto sucked last year, too. A .726 ops (which declined in both August and September when he was playing more) is not good. Also, 8 errors in 61 games at short. Not bad, but not spectacluar, either.
A career .314 hitter with 527 HRs and and OBP of .411 can do whatever the hell he wants.
Pete D.
bad 2005
good 2006
one of the worst ever in 2007
adequate in 2008
Has he fixed it, or is he adequate at best, and mostly just crap?
He is a 25th man sorry.
but any of you punto-haters listen to gardy’s interview with chad hartman?
MC,
what did Gardy say (again)?
A.
I hate Manny Ramierez, but you still can’t deny that you are right…
He will get whatever he wants.
Mighty Casey…
I was listening… and I am THE Nick Punto Hater…
I think it’s safe to say everyone else can fall in line behind me in my dislike of him as a ball player.
We all know that Gardy has a man crush on Punterrible… Your point?
thrylos,
gardy not only confirmed punto as his everyday shortstop, but also expressed strong feelings of relief and excitement to have him there.
he also states cuddyer as the right-fielder.
…let the madness begin!!
Boneyard,
Punto is fine as a #9 hitter. That’s about it… I think that there is too much discussion about him. He is ok at SS. I can live with him if they upgrade 3B and the rotation, but if the idiot Antony is saying on the air that Buscher is an adequate major leaguer while compares Wiggy to Lamb, I really question the quality of this front office.
Oh really, A.? How come teams aren’t lining up to join the Manny sweepstakes, then? Possibly because he absolutely quit on his team, forced a trade, and THEN decided he wanted to play.
It’s hard to argue with someone who compares Nick Punto to Ramierez. But, then again, most Twins fans eat the crap that the Trib and Pohlad are dishing.
I’m still of the opinion that moving Cuddyer to third would be a viable option. After takings some good reps and some ground balls in Spring Training, he would be fine. He’d certainly be serviceable defensively if we’re talking about bringing in defensive liabilities like Wigginton and Kouz. It would not be Mike’s first time on the hot corner and he’d adapt quickly. I think he’d struggle more with the mental aspects of the switch, if anything. It would be a big move for him but, Span covers more ground and has a decent arm (as shown last year on his web gem game-saving toss to Redmond against the Mariners).
We need Delmon’s bat in the lineup and the only way he is going to get better defensively is if he PLAYS DEFENSE! He has an accurate, missile of an arm and his power at the plate will come with more at bats. The home runs that he did hit were absolutely creamed, so the power is there. He is just a line-drive hitter right now and will need to mature and see more pitches before he consistently punishes the outfield bleachers.
“The fact of experience remains.” Manny 2 World Series, 1st Ballot Hall-of-Famer. Nick Punto… … … … ?
BC, I think Punto lowered the bar so much in 2007 that his 2008 only looked adequate. But I’m nitpicking. You’ve got him as the 25th man and that’s spot on. I’d rather have Manny even if he routinely strolls to first. He gets to do that legitimately 35 times a year because the ball has been deposited over the fence.
j-fin,
hartman asked gardy about cuddy possibly moving back to third…
not happening.
I don’t believe Cuddy’s got the fast twitch muscles required at 3B
Sane, the article this blog is discussing today basically says that. They are perfectly happy with the team as currently constructed. A month ago they were saying upgrading SS and 3B was a priority. Two weeks ago it was ‘well make that SS OR 3B’. Now it’s ‘we’re happy with it the way it is.’ Sad.
Pete D. fair enough. Punto didn’t suck last year. He was just incredibly medicore. His defense is over-rated and for all of his great .28 BA, he had 28 RBI’s. As with many others on here, if he were just a utility player, I’d have no issue with him. Hell, I LIKED Denny Hocking, but neither TK or Gardy ran him out at SS or 3B 150 times a season.
Mighty Casey,
It is not news that Gardy is an idiot… I’d love to see Delmon jack 20 out of the park in spring training next year and then see what the manager of the millennium does… (on the other hand, Ruiz outplayed Monroe -and every other Twin for that matter- last spring training but Gardy gave the job to Monroe and brought up Tolbert, too.)
Swannie,
Manny Ramierez and CC Sabbathia are my least favorite players. I also hope that our bloody socked moron in Boston retires too so I never have to hear about Curt Schilling ever again either.
But atleast each of those ball players have/had this thing called TALENT. Punterrible… He can’t get past the A in talent.
The FO has earned our skepticism by their past actions and inaction, but I’m going to reserve judgment for now. The off-season isn’t over. The FA market seems to be fluid and uncertain, and it’s entirely possible that teams will make moves in desperation at the bell. Who knows, maybe Beltre gets real reasonable when then buyers dwindle down.
I think Twins Fans reason with para-consistent logic. Certainly not classical logic… not even intuitionistic logic… yeah, somehow they managed to accommodate blatant contradictions into their set of premises and conclude that 1) Nick Punto should in fact be a starting MLB shortstop, 2) a platoon of Buscher and Harris is a good idea and 3) trading Delmon Young and starting Cuddyer in RF would put the Twins over the edge.
“We all know that Gardy has a man crush on Punterrible… Your point?”
The point is that Gardy and you both have irrational feelings toward Punto that are impossible to argue because they have NO basis in fact.
Punto’s abilities (or lack thereof) can’t be discussed rationally with you OR Gardy.
As a result both Gardy and you have ZERO credibility on the subject.
2008 Stats:
AB HR RBI BA
Buscher 218 4 47 .294
Harris 434 7 49 .265
Platooning these 2 at 3b would probably produce 10 HR’s, 80 RBI’s, and a .280 BA. Another $5 million wouldn’t produce that much more. An upgrade would be nice, but why give up a quality player or spend the money for it?
A., ignoring most of my post and comparing Manny’s hitting stats to Punto’s accomplishes nothing. Perhaps Manny was a bad choice, but Manny and B.J. Upton are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head who quit early multiple times. Guys who don’t hustle and aren’t blessed with tremendous natural abilities probably don’t make it to the Major Leagues.
And on that note, I’m off. Have a great night, guys.
Swannie,
the free agent/offseason has been slow to begin with.
Manny will sign with Boston, the Mets or the Yankees for 3 years and 25 million per with a mutual option for a 4th year.
Manny will sign with Boston?
When pigs fly!
GW,
what’s missing from your equation is that platooning these two strictly L/R will have Buscher and his glove start about 110 games. And that’s a huge problem…
(Added: I’m not claiming Punto is a better ballplayer- just to be clear)
thrylos98,
How many LHP started vs the Twins last year?
gardy also says “whoever produces will play.” the fact is, gardy always has and always will opt for defense when given the choice. there is no question cuddy is the better option v. delmon in that regard. add cuddy’s experience and boom, that’s how cuddy gets appointed starting RF, as of today.
taking monroe was the right move, given monroe has seen lots of major league pitching as compared to zero major league pitching. also… monroe could play defense. ruiz was completely uncapable. having a guy who plays 1-2 games a week, and cannot field, is dead weight.
What do you people think the Twins will accomplish this year? We have the same team trotting out opening day as last year - the same team that didn’t make the playoffs.
Don’t expect both the Tigers and Indians to under perform next year. The Sox will also stay competitive. Keep clinging to you Punto, Buscher, Harris, Crain, Guerrier, blah blah blah blah blah.
Thylos98 - True, but he’s probably not worse than Wigginton, probably a downgrade from Blake, and with a lead in the late innings could be subbed for.
sane,
I’d venture to say about 40 from the top of my head… Teams start lefties because the Twins do not hit lefties.
agreed that buscher is a terrible fielder.
but… koskie was a terrible fielder. buscher was a GOD-AWFUL fielder prior to last season. it’s not too far-fetched to say there can be some improvement there.
if not, i wouldn’t be surprised to see a lot of buscher on the bench.
he[Buscher]’s probably not worse than Wigginton,
for the second time in this post:
2008 RZR @3B: Wiggy .732, Blake: .720, Harris .707, Buscher .688
Buscher is the pits. The only third baseman worse than him with the glove is Luke Hughes
I still think that the Twins will be making a huge mistake by not adding a power hitting right-handed hitter. They have needed one for years and even though they do not grow on trees they have had a lot time to find one. Harris may be alright defensively but can he add the protective pop and the presence at the plate that a Beltre can? Obviously not. i think this team is close but need to make the right dramatic move to get over the hump.
Mighty Casey - are we talking about Corey Koskie?
Sid,
By using the name SID you are possibly implying the name of Sid Hartmann and that could in fact give you less credibility than anyone ever.
So come on… there is no need to get mean towards me on Punto.
Looking at Punto’s stats he was below average offensively in most catagories, and defensively he was not among the top 10 at SS was he?
If Izturas is a 2 year 5 million ball player then I think that Punto is a 1 year 3 million dollar player at most.
let me clarify…
koskie WAS a horrible fielder, but improved to be gold-glove caliber.
Opening Day Lineup last year was not the same as this year.
Span LF
Casilla 2B
Buscher 3B
Punto SS
instead of
Harris 2B
Everett SS
Lamb 3B
Young LF
I said Boston, and I meant LA… I am sorry. That was me feeling and acting freaking older than dirt today. lol
I am sorry that was a screw up on my part.
koskie was a terrible fielder.
Another misconception.
Here is Koskie’s career FP @ 3B:
(all MLB)
1998 .947 (age 25)
1999 .962
2000 .966
2001 .964
2002 .969
2003 .973
2004 .963
2005 .968
2006 .967
here goes Buscher:
2003 A .963
2004 A+ .926
2005 A+ .879
2005 AA .939
2006 AA .958 (age 25)
2007 AA .907
2007 AAA .952
2007 MLB .923
2008 AAA .960
2008 MLB .938
btw MLB average for 3B 2008 is .958
BC,
I agree with your rational arguments.
Punto is not good.
I disagree and object to your hate-filled irrational arguments.
Punto as a human being deserves better.
And you (and Gardy) forfeit all credibility when your emotion overrides and negates your logic.
Mighty Casey…
We can say the same thing about Morneau… he was a lousy 1st baseman in the beginning, and I would say right now that he’s the 3rd best defensive 1st baseman in the game (I don’t want to get the stat geeks showing me he’s 1st or 43rd!)…
I think that Texiera has a lot more range at 1st base on fly balls (kind of like Hrbek), and Youkolis just doesn’t make mistakes (or his other infielders are so superior to ours that he just looks better).
I realize what has been said by Gardy …I’m just wishing, out loud, that our front office and coaching staff would be more open to shaking things up…If it becomes obvious that Cuddy can’t hack it at 3B before the season starts, go back to the original plan. Winning takes creativity. I’m not asking them to change the collective framework of their team, but trying some different things would not be a crime. Like everyone else, I’m looking for upgrades and, if the Twins are not going to buy them, they should look into some different options from within. Cuddyer is not someone who is going to voice displeasure with decisions made by management and, with the lack of power (specifically, right-handed) in our current lineup, anything is worth a shot. Our problem, after Cuddyer went down, became finding a way to keep his replacement (Span) in the lineup when Cuddyer got healthy…
Gardy, if you are reading this…Billy’s not going to buy you a bat. Rather than going with another “platoon” at third, why not give Cuddyer a look there in hopes of fielding a more consistent line-up where each player knows his role. Cuddy could DH against lefties and Harris could fill-in at the corner with ease. Plus, you could repair the possible damage done to your relationship with Delmon Young, after your Fargo fiasco.
For once, I’d like the Twinkies to do something off-the-wall to try and improve. It’s obviously going to be a yawner of an off-season from an “acquisition” stand-point…so let’s do something different with the pieces we have.
Sid…
You have a solid point. I’m just saying… I try not to ever tell someone that they don’t have any credibility unless they are getting paid to be credible…
That’s all.
The numbers comparison for Harris and Wigginton would be more applicable if Gardy let Harris out of the doghouse to start more than once every 3 weeks.
Buscher will be in AAA by June 1 after batting less than .250 with 12 errors!
bc-
agreed about morneau. it’s unquestionable that morneau has turned from lousy to borderline superb in his time in the big leagues.
thrylos-
it was widely recognized by members of the organization and fans alike that koskie went from a below average fielding 3b to a upper-tier fielder by the time he left minnesota. i don’t argue your numbers, but it just doesn’t fit.
I think Harris could be a solid 3B, but with freaking Gardy freaking messing with the freaking lineup everyday Harris can’t get his groove on.
More excuses! What else is new? Make excuses, don’t make moves! If the Twins front office had a book, that would be the title, and now even the sportswriters are going along with it. Let me get this straight. The Twins shouldn’t sign Wigginton because, Harris is better defensively, batted 300 after June 17th last season, and is only due to make around $500,000 next season. Forget the fact that the Twins biggest problem with their lineup is lack of offense, not defense. Forget the fact that even though Harris batted 300 after June 17th, he only batted 265 for the season, and hit just 7 homeruns, meanwhile, Wigginton batted 285 for the season, hit 23 homeruns, and had 58 rbis in just 111 games. Harris played in 19 more games, and yet Wigginton had over triple the homeruns, and a 30 point better average. Also, forget the fact that when the new stadium was approved, the Twins said that they would be able to spend more money. The Twins had 91 rbis from their third basemen last season, with what, 3 players combined? Is this actually a valid argument for not signing Ty, when there’s a good possibility he could drive in 91 rbis by himself? It’s just another excuse for the Twins being cheap, and it’s never going to change! Also, Brandon Lyon, is supposedly the answer for the bullpen problem? An average pitcher, at, of course a cheap price. Not overpowering, and finished with a 4.70 ERA last season. For a reliever, that would be the set up man for the Twins, he doesn’t exactly sound like the difference maker. The Twins need talent, not depth.
It’s the same story for the Twins, and we can forget about a World Series for this team. They don’t deserve our support!
it was widely recognized by members of the organization and fans alike that koskie went from a below average fielding 3b to a upper-tier fielder by the time he left minnesota. i don’t argue your numbers, but it just doesn’t fit.
how about an alternative explanation:
this organization simply doesn’t get it…
Starting Lineup Vs. RHP:
1. Span (RF)
2. Casilla (2B)
3. Mauer (C)
4. Morneau (1B)
5. Cuddyer (3B)
6. Kubel (DH)
7. Young (LF)
8. Punto (SS)
9. Gomez (CF)
Starting Lineup Vs. LHP:
1. Span (RF)
2. Casilla (2B)
3. Mauer (C)
4. Morneau (1B)
5. Cuddyer (DH)
6. Young (LF)
7. Harris (3B)
8. Punto (SS)
9. Gomez (CF)
***Could switch Cuddy to cleanup spot to alternate the lefties and righties as that seemed to be a good fit in the past.
“how about an alternative explanation:
this organization simply doesn’t get it”
Another alternative explanation:
FPA is crap and other fielding metrics smell only slightly better.
thyrlos-
let me ask you this: what mlb organization is run better than the twins?
Sid, again you have a solid point.
Thanks, BC.
You are a good man when you are calm.
ive never seen an organization as weak as this one….we can always find fault with certain players when we dont want to spend the money to sign them…amazing…–dont give me this crap about wigginton…the last 3 years the guy has hit over 20 hr in not that many at bats….what does this team need…some long ball help …what did we lack last year???long ball help….so cut it, attack it, make it smell any way you want but it still comes down to this..the twins are cheap, cheap and then cheap and dont really care about winning …thats said as the players deserve better and definately us fans deserve better….maybe we should decide that the twins are just too expensive to go watch anymore….two can play that game….screw you bill smith and i am dissapointed in joe c for taking the company line in this fiasco…..
what mlb organization is run better than the twins?
Look at the teams who have won World Series after the Twins did. There is your de facto answer.
Mighty Casey.
http://www.usatoday.com’s baseball webpage has a list of the best organizations…
We were in a 3 way tie for 10th place.
Boston would be my choice without that list, and they were by and far the USA Today’s number 1 franchise as well.
I also think that the Angels, Dodgers, and Phillies would be right above the Twins…
The Yankees and Mets will be considered higher than the Twins but on those two teams I will disagree completely.
Sid,
Part of it is Schtick so remember to take it with a grain of salt…
though I do love baseball to a point it could be considered a religion.
Problem with Buscher is that he couldn’t field a beach ball consistently. Why resign Punto? Because he can play 3rd, 2nd, short. Also, 1st and the oufield if necessary. It’s called versatility. Comes in handy when injuries occur. Go Twins~
People really need to get over the thought of seeing Beltre in a Twins uniform, him and his agent, have made it perfectly clear they do not want to be in the Twin Cities, so move on, stop moaning about how the front office should get him, it WON’T happen! Plus the Mariners would want a lot for a one year rental, and don’t even think you can sign him to an extension because that word has been left out of Boras’s dictionary, trust me, as an Astros fan the guy will pretend to talk extension then handcuff your team and then this time next year you will be pining over the prospects you lost for Beltre (that is if you could have gotten him)as they are gearing up for a stellar season in Seattle, oh and reading about his mega million dollar deal with a coastal team with ever expanding pockets.
Exactly correct Jerry. But Punto’s strength is as a super utility player. We should be able to do better at starting SS. C’mon BS, make a SIGNIFICANT upgrade to the team.
bc-
i should’ve known better than to bring up that argument in a forum full of haters that tell carl pohlad how to spend his money.
as for the usatoday list… the fact that the yankees are in the top 5 makes it completely erroneous and not worth my time.
there is no arguing the twins are cheap. (we can run carl pohlad and his checkbook into the ground all night… it is what it is.) is there any argument the twins squeeze the most out of the little resources they have? you tell me…
the fact that the yankees are in the top 5 makes it completely erroneous
Quick question: how many World Series did the Yankees win since the Twins won their last? I hope that changes your opinion…
thrylos-
that’s a stupid argument and you know it.
No it’s not:
The goal of every franchise is to win a world series
the franchises that win more of them achieve their goal more than the ones that don’t win
thus they are better. Logic 101
thrylos,
If you do the most with least, you are the best coach/organization.
If I beat up handcapped people, does that make me a good fighter?
Its not all about the bottom line!
An organization with unlimited resources, which has similar success to organizations with limited resources, is an inferior organization.
Mighty Casey.
I would still choose those teams minus the NY teams which I did mention I didn’t agree with them on!!! ahead of the Twins.
Boston has a better minor league system than we do that have produced as much more top notch talent than we have. They also have an unlimited budget, but they also spend that money well as apposed to foolishly like the Yankees do.
I don’t think you appreciate how hard that is for me to say because I can’t stand the Red Sox.
But the Angels, Dodgers, and Phillies all have minor league systems that rival the Twins, they have systems in place to actually spend money on free agents, and the world series has nothing to do with my choice on the Phillies. I think they have the greatest fans in baseball.
thrylos-
i gotta ask… are you a twins fan? from my time on this blog i have gathered…
you don’t like ron gardenhire.
you despise the front office.
you do not like several players on the team.
anything else?
i’ve honestly never read anything positive you’ve ever said about the twins as an organization.
when you go somewhere, can you wear your twins hat with pride? do you?
…or can you only wear that hat the day the win the world series? and then take it off the day spring training starts the next season?
i realize that it is yours, mine, and everyone’s duty as a fan to state your opinions and state them boldly. it only shows interest and support (maybe?). caring is good. it’s obvious you care.
but for you to even SUGGEST that the yankees are a better run organization than the twins makes me very skeptical. HOW DEPRESSING?!?!
Mighty Casey…
It does seem a bit cliched to just bash something because it says something good about the Yankees.
Mighty Casey,
yes I am a Twins fan. Let me give you an analogy:
If you do not like your president
if you do not like your senator
if you do not like the decisions they make
if you think that they hurt your country
and you are verbal about it, does that make you less of an American?
same here. I am just sick and tired of this organization doing less than necessary to win it all since Andy MacPhail left…
Mighty Casey. I will wear my Pittsburgh Pirates cap with pride… I have no problem wearing my Twins cap with pride…
But I also didn’t disown my son for having a Yankees hat.
And yes I do wear a Twins and/or a Rock Cats hat pretty much daily (in a non Twins country) as a matter of fact…
once again, i’m left speechless on this damn blog.
rest assured, i will be back for more. nothing like talking baseball this time of year.
bowling night… gotta break out the punto jersey! here’s a quote…
People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball. I’ll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring. ~Rogers Hornsby
i, also, where one of many twins hats all day, everyday… in a non twins country (although wisconsin IS twins territory, and should be acknowledged as such)
I dont understand why Beltre would not want to play here. He does know that he wouldn’t have to live here in the winter doesn’t he.
Brianfreeze,
Maybe he has heard about the Memorial Day Blizzard.
I have forgotten the year.
Delmon will get to play in right b/c Cuddy will break break his hand again watching yet another ball being dropped. Cuddy was terrible in the field when he played last year. I can live with Buscher at 3rd if there is improvement which I suspect there could be. We realy need to focus on upgrading the bullpen. If we could of held a lead the last 2.5 months we would have won the division by 6 games. The bullpen choked and needs a dramatic upgrade even if Mujares keeps up the promise he showed.
Trade Thrylos98 and throw in saldoman!
What is this BS about the Twins having limited resources? For one thing, the Twins are in a medium market, which means they can definitely afford to spend more on their team, then a team in a small market like the Royals. For another thing, the Pohlad family are billionaires. Finally, the whole purpose of the new stadium was so the Pohlad’s can make more money, and therefore be able to spend more money to build a World Series contending team. This isn’t happening as of yet, and there is only one more season left at the Metrodome. What are they waiting for?
If some of you fans are content with the little team that could, and don’t care about the American League Championship, or World Series, then that’s fine, but don’t act like this team is one of the best ran organizations, when it’s obvious that the people in charge don’t care about the fans! If they cared about the fans, they would do everything in their power to put a legitimate contender on the field! World Series championships aren’t everything, but shouldn’t an organization try their best to bring a World Series home? I think they owe it to us! Without the fans, there wouldn’t be a team!
“Without the fans, there wouldn’t be a team!”
I think there are more cases of teams without fans, than there are fans without teams.
That’s not what I meant! You know what I mean! The fans pay for the tickets, the fans pay for the merchandise, the taxpayers pay for the stadiums! I would like to see how much money these owners make, the day fans decide not to pay the ridiculous ticket prices, and nobody shows up at the games, and the owners can’t pay their players anymore!
Prediction: After the umpteenth year in a row that the team has assured its fans that it intends to upgrade at 3rd base and find someone who hits the ball hard they will walk away from every deal they see.
Then in July while the Twins are near the top of the division they will tell us that, yes, they know they are at least one good hitter away from sealing the deal. So they will again look for a 3rd base person who hits really hard. But every trade will require them to give up Slowey or someone like that so–who knew?–they will walk away from each trade and tell us that they like where they are with the power hitting of LNP and the rest of the bunters.
By the end of the season they will tell us they are aware that they are still one good hitter and one good 3rd base person away from the big time and will look next year for someone. Then they will do the same thing next year and we will be right back here again.
This is getting boring and frustrating. It’s also sad to see our news reporters buying into this propaganda.
Zhang, very well said! That is so true, and accurate, it’s amazing!
Jason,
I do know what you mean.
Professional baseball needs fans for survival, at least at its current economical level.
Most of my time goes into HS baseball, where the players aren’t paid.
The fans get in free and their attendance isn’t necessary for the game to be played.
Admittedly, that has no relevance to the baseball to which you were referring.
What more do we want? We’ve already got a Buscher, a Baker and a former Candlestick pitcher.
Then again, we probably have less need for Buscher now, since we got rid of Lamb and Hamburger last year.
The Twins ivest money in worthless players like Lamb, Livan, Bautista, etc. When those players fail they use that as an excuse from signing high priced players or at try to trade for one. The Yanks, Mets, Sox, etc. ivest in high priced players(big-time players in their primes or on the back-side of a very productive career). When(or if) one of those players fail, you know what they do? They go and sign another big time player. That is why those teams contend every year and they sell out their stadiums. The Twins players overachieve, they sell out a few series, and Pohlad adds more money to his millions in the bank. Now we are GIVING him a new stadium. Shame on him, or is it shame on us.
Well, I am not going to support a team that is so cheap, and doesn’t care about the quailty of the product, ( the team ), it’s trying to sell to the fans!
What this team needs is another threat to go yard. Maybe Delmon can develop into that player or Kubel will continue his progression, but the addition of Wiggy would help us right now. Not only did he hit 23 bombs in 111 games last year bu from what has been written about him, he plays gardenhire kinda ball and is a great clubhouse guy. 7 million a year for 2-3 years for a guy who could really complete this lineup seems like something the twins should at least be considering, yet it appears that they are not even going to attempt to get Wigginton cause they think he will go for more than Blake. I just hope they at least considered Ty, and in my opinion if you are going to overpay for cuddyer you can overpay for wigginton.
bill smith should sign this guy wiggy or he might as well pack his bags and leave town….if we get up tomorrow and read that wiggy signed somewhere else like cleveland or anywhere for that matter bill smiths name will be —well, lets just say i dont think i would want to be him…..the heat will and should be tremendous on him, not only from us but the media also…joe c and lavelle..very disappointed in joe c toeing the co line earlier today…i dont know why they are so afraid to overpay for something good, my god they have overpaid many times in last couple years for real junk…at least this move could bring them to the w.s…i can say that because thats what was missing from them doing it last year…..i have to believe even the mauers and morneaus are pissed as they know the score…they know they need help and have said so…bills not being fair to them either, just as he is not to us fans….
Living in AZ and watching Lyon for a few years, he’s a total head case. It was pitiful watching him pitch the second half of the year last year. If you think it was hard watching Guerrier pitch, Lyon was worse.
He’s in desperate need of a change of scenery, but Brandon Lyon is not the answer. I hope I’m wrong.
The Twins fleeced the taxpayers, and now they are jerking around us fans.
When will the citizenry rise up and throw off oligarchs like the Pohlads?!!!
The average Amrican is a big, fat sap.
Bill Smith: “We’re not embarrassed” to go into the season with Buscher/Harris.
Nice to see such a ringing endorsement from the GM.
No “we’re excited about…”
No “we think we’re better because…”
Nope.
We get “we’re not embarrassed.”
Some of you are amazing!Len3 and Joe C give you a venue to vent your angers and frustrations of your own lives and you repay them by ripping them.They are cheaper than going to a shrink!
The Twins spend and play with the goal of winning the division. Other teams focus on winning the World Series. Big difference, in dollars and in commitment.
As a fan, I’m sick of the Twins nickel and diming their way to “contend for the division title”. You get the feeling that it’s enough of an accomplishment for the front office to field a team that’s just good enough to make a miraculous run at the title, with glaring holes at key positions. They blew a window of opportunity to accomplish something greater. By not filling the gaps, they wasted the Johan years, and are now wasting the best years of M&M.
There’s a reason the Twins are always viewed as underdogs - they’re putting utility players in the starting lineup (Punto, Harris, Buscher). The fans that are ok with these guys have convinced themselves to settle for mediocrity. But dammit, we deserve better.
Until the owner and front office step up and show a real commitment to winning, the Twins will continue to be treated as underdogs. Please, Twins management, don’t let this window of opportunity close without at least giving it a try.
It’s all bs now..I’m sadly disappointed.. KJW’s thoughts are same as mine..we had a window..we had the money..we had the young core M & M studs + Nathan + solid Starters that won’t come around again here in a LONG time + new ball park and totally blew it. Whatever Twins do in 09 if team not improved any further, will be inspite of themselves. I really feel this was our last chance in my lifetime to make a real run at dominance for a few yrs without sacrificing competitiveness for the future. These opportunities for the Twins are as rare as a mile long asteroid crashing into downtown Mpls..
It’s clear our FO doesn’t have a “Hunger” to win, if we win fine..but that’s cleary not the priority. Am I wrong?
I just read the article again and Joe C, usually your stuff is ok, but this article is ridiculous. Wiggington “who isn’t a 500% upgrade over Harris.” What an absolutely STUPID statement. No player is a “500% upgrade” over another. That would mean they have to have 500% better stats making 500% less money. Wiggy has better career numbers, and had better numbers last year than Blake, so why does he not deserve Blake money? Oh, and he is 4 years younger. The only reason he got cut was because of salary rollbacks in Houston. Do your research before you write a pathetic article like this.
here is my suggestion- i frimly believe in strong pitching. how did atlanta get where they were several years ago with all those divisions they won in a row. We have got the deepest starting five with mega talent in the minors. we lost so many games last year
by one run. we need a proven power right handed power hitter in the mix coming from either fa or a trade. why did we lose a lot of 1 run games power hitter along with a strong middle relief verteran pitcher to stabilize the relief pitchers and also an improvement from the management team when to utilize the pitchers at the right time and when to steal the bases to put the go ahead run in scoring postion. look to the free agent market for this healp everybody else is so young you might lose a quality player later on to another team.
also before you pay out so much for veteran help look within your farm system that you are developing promote from within.
What if the Twins go into the season with this offense? What if Span has a repeat of last year. He would be a lead-off hitter for 90% of major league baseball. What if Cassilla can continue to bat the way he did since June of last year. He would be a better than average in the #2 spot. What if Joe Mauer and Justin Morneau would play like Joe Mauer and Justin Morneau…wait, I think they probably will. What if Cuddyer could just stay healthy and hit 25+ HR? What if Delmon Young can live up to the hype? What if Jason Kubel can improve from last year? What if Harris can continue to bat the way he did the second half of last year? What if Nick Punto doesn’t stink? and finally, what about Gomez?
A lot of “what ifs”, but most of them are pretty realistic. I think offensively, as Twins fans, we have a lot to look forward to…and pray about!!
BC Beneke-You are the all time Punto hater you say.Baseball=game= fun!Why don’t you write that book you have been threating to write for 2 years now.I would even buy it.except it would be so depressing that Wille Shakespeare “Hamlet” would be considered a light comedy farce by comparison.
Rambis,
you better set up shop now in your community church..you gotta lot of prayin to do. if 1/4 of your what ifs happen..your prayers will have been answered..and Twins don’t make playoffs.
I’ve offered up solutions where prayer’s aren’t necessary…why that isnt a good thing..i’ll never know.
It’s like I have been saying for nearly two years now: Pohlad thinks he just has to hold on for one more year and then start raking in the added revenue from the new ballpark. That’s why we have seen nothing but silly stopgap signings for the last three years. But of course in 2010 he won’t need to invest money in talent on the field, the park will sell tickets. Face it Twins fans, we are headed for about 3-5 years of mediocrity.
