Twins players don’t seem upset by team’s inactivity
Posted on January 26th, 2009 – 12:49 PMBy Joe Christensen
If there’s frustration among Twins players for a lack of moves this offseason, I couldn’t sense it at TwinsFest.
Torii Hunter used to have the occasional grumble about the front office’s inaction. Johan Santana, too. But this is not their team anymore.
The Twins could use an eighth-inning reliever. Almost everyone can see that, but Joe Nathan sang the virtues of all the relievers who are coming back, emphasizing that Jesse Crain should be better in his second year back from shoulder surgery and saying Matt Guerrier will be better for all the tough experiences he weathered last season.
Jose Mijares and Craig Breslow did nothing but impress last year, and Boof Bonser has the stuff to be a dominant setup man once he gets comfortable moving from a starting role to the bullpen.
Don’t forget, Nathan had to make that transition himself earlier in his career. Has he given Boof any advice?
“I think the first step for him is accepting it,” Nathan said. “That’s something he’s going to accept for himself. If he takes that role head on, he can go out and show what kind of stuff he has.”
As for the crowded outfield and questions about the left side of the infield, the players weren’t complaining.
“Sometimes the best moves are the ones you don’t make,” Justin Morneau said. ”Just because Kansas City’s making moves or Cleveland’s making moves or whatever, that doesn’t mean that we have to do it to show that we’re making moves.
“If it’s the right fit, then it’s the right fit. But if it’s costing us two of our starting pitchers to go get a guy — the guys who got us to where we got last year were the guys in our rotation.
“Do you give up that just to get a bat? You win in this league over a full season with pitching and defense. There’s benefits on both sides [making a move or not making a move], but at the same time, we won a lot of games last year with the team we have.”
223 Responses to "Twins players don’t seem upset by team’s inactivity"
1
This sentiment should probably be taken at face value, without reading too much into it. Why would a player risk political currency by publicly grumbling unless they plan to be elsewhere in the near future, like Hunter and Santana? On the other hand, Morneau’s viewpoint mirrors that of some of the bloggers here who believe moves should be made only if they radically upgrade the team.
if the trade offers that were rolled here were what was par for the trade market (e.g., Slowey + Span for Atkins) I have no problem with the FO’s inaction on the trade front.
FA wise though, they did have a couple opportunities.
Joe C.—
Don’t be so gullible.
and still do, i should add.
Greinke deal???
This is the news that we need to pay most attention to. This could help identify the market for locking up the younger pitchers we have on the roster… this bought out two years of FA.
Interesting to see what will be in the works here.
Is that the same Morneau wishing out loud a couple of months ago (at the throwback uniform unveiling) that he wished the team added a “bopper?” Same guy?
Were they serving Kool-Aid with the other refreshments at TwinFest?
They don’t need to make a trade to upgrade this team. There are options with free agents and they have the money. Period.
MC,
Where did you hear of a Zach Greinke Deal?
Oops I just found the Deal…sorry
I’m more interested in seeing whether they extend Mauer. I’m convinced if they can’t do it this off season the’s gone. What a PR nightmare that could be the year they open the stadium the major story will be, where is Mauer going to go?!?!?!?
We’ll see if Morneausie is singing the same tune from his hospital bed after one of Buscher’s(frequent)scattergun throws pulls him off base into the runner and does him harm.
If he believes what he says about “pitching and defense” and considers BB to be a good defender then I think he might have been into the Molsons when he made that comment.
Morneau and Buscher have become buddies, so I wouldn’t expect Morneau to publicly bitch about the Twins not picking up a “bopper” third baseman.
Don’t worry Willie, Bucher’s throws usually land somewhere in the 4th row, so Morneau should be fine.
But, hey, yeah, defense baby….
Of course the players wouldn’t be upset. They have no new challengers vying for their jobs! I feel the same way about my job because my company didn’t bring in any new people this year to try replacing me for the good of the company.
bop: Why would a player risk political currency by publicly grumbling unless they plan to be elsewhere in the near future
Grumbling about the way the team runs its business also is a means to convince the team it may take more to keep said player around.
I am unfamiliar with meaning of the frequent Kool-Aid references on these blogs.
Is Kool-Aid some type of brain food, that the intellectually challenged are deprived of and are angry that only smart bloggers can afford to drink it?
I apologize for not being current on these “hip” references.
They have no new challengers vying for their jobs!
I don’t think Morneau or Nathan have anything to worry about when it comes to job security. If it isn’t with the Twins, they’ll find a job elsewhere no problem.
[…] the Twins players aren’t upset by the paucity of moves this offseason. My initial reaction was that they must read this website*, because we’ve been harping on […]
jon: “Kool-Aid” is a non-argument used when one can’t construct a response based around any kind of fact or stat aside from their own opinion.
It’s counterpart is “Haterade”, which has become far more popular as of late despite it’s incredibly bitter taste.
so we’re all on board now that last years team will be good enough to win it this year?
No. They will choke in the playoffs as usual. But they will win the division.
I believe “Kool-Aid” is a reference to the Heaven’s Gate cult mass suicide with poisoned Kool-Aid. The metaphor being that if you drink the Kool-Aid you’ll believe anything you’re told.
Nope, Kool-Aid refers to the very real emergence of gee-golly, complacency, adequate is ok, thought-process that is generally relayed by the front office.
For example, the front office promoted the idea that 3b needs an upgrade after last season.
Now, all of the sudden, the Buscher/Harris combo is an RBI producing machine and why bother.
Believing that is drinking the Kool-Aid.
“I apologize for not being current on these “hip” references.”
It’s actually not that hip. It references the People’s Temple mass suicide back in 1978.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kool-Aid#.22Drinking_the_Kool-Aid.22
Ben W. is correct.
I think what Morneau meant is he didn’t want to see the Twins trade away any of the young starters just to bring in a 3B. I’m sure he would welcome someone like Crede.
Ben or Pete is correct…whichever one had Jim Jones as its leader.
Oh yeah. The other cult.
I think Pete D. is correct. Jonestown Massacre. People drank cyanide-laced Kool-Aid.
I believe they are quoting some of the guys on the KFAN radio station with the usage of Kool-Aid. Basically, it’s implied that something is in the team Kool-Aid that makes them turn into a robot and pretty much love the team no matter what. “I think the Twins are going in the right direction, they are the best team in baseball, they make no mistakes.”
I’m pretty sure it’s the common man and possibly Dan Barreiro that use it…
Joe, did the FO make you post this blog? Seriously, I am OK with not trading away starters, but when they have chances to sign BP guys or someone like Crede to man 3B, then why wouldn’t they?
Good question yapper…
When is Crede’s workout? The one where the Twins were goint to attend.
BC, you’re probably correct in saying that Morneau, along with just about every one of us, would welcome a Crede signing, assuming he can produce. That remains an unanswered question, but that doesn’t stop people from screaming for action before that question is reasonably considered.
I sincerely apologize to everyone for not making the sarcasm in my 1:42 PM post as obvious as I tried to make it.
I really wasn’t trying to fool anyone.
My bad!
My response to Morneau’s assinine “Sometimes the best moves are the one’s you don’t make” blather:
Who is going to carry your water when you bat .243 and hit 2 home runs in September in a pennant race?
Why the dynamic RBI machine Buscher/Harris combo will carry that water savvyspy…
duh
My response to savvyspy’s assinine “Who is going to carry your water when you bat .243 and hit 2 home runs in September in a pennant race?” blather:
What’s the connection, son?
WJ,
“When is Crede’s workout? The one where the Twins were goint to attend”
I believe THAT workout will take place prior to the game that the Twins play against Crede’s 2009 team.
sane, I thought LaVelle or Joe reported that Crede was going to hold a workout to show that his back was better.
The thought being that there is no sense crying about the Twins not signing Crede until the workout.
WJ,
I am sure Crede will hold that workout.
I was just making light of the possibility of the Twins attending.
But I certainly hope they do.
My prediction?? Crede signs with the Giants.
Call it a hunch. I just don’t see him wanting to “re-establish” himself in the Dome this year due to his back issues. And I would bet he is currently getting that advice from his camp as well.
I have a little bit of issue with Morneau comparing the Twins to Kansas City or Cleveland or anyone else in the division regarding their activity (or lack thereof) in the free agent market. They need to do more than win the division to be successful. Otherwise, they’ll be a one and done in the playoffs. They should be comparing themselves to the elite teams. Elite teams do not sign has-beens hoping to turnaround their careers. Players on elite teams ramp up their play in the last month of the season unlike Morneau. Mediocre teams like the Twinkies give the perception that winning the division is good enough.
WJ,
And you are right.
Scott Boras will not let the Twins (or anyone else) sign Crede with a preemptive offer before as many teams as possible are able to watch him work out.
Its hard to have bidding, when there is only one bidder.
Larbo i disagree i think all they really need to do is win the division the playoffs are a crap shoot in my opinion. Out of all the playoff teams last year who would’ve picked Philly?
CHarley Walters: “It will be surprising if left fielder Delmon Young is still with the Twins in May.”
I know this guy looks upon his paper boy as a credible source. But this is decent twins-blog fodder, nonetheless.
Where is he going do you suppose?
[…] Around the Majors – […]
BC of ND,
The Phillies had the second best record in the National League and players that stepped up their performance. If the Twins want to win their division, play a few more games, and call it quits, that is fine. I’ll find a diffferent team that aspires to greater goals.
BC, I agree to some extent, although I think teams that can hit more HRs have a little more luck in the playoffs.
GCOk,
Charley Walters wants the Twins to trade Delmon to the Saints.
I agree that the Twins could use a guy like Crede if he’s healthy but i never understand when people say they’re not happy with the Twins making the playoffs. That’s the number 1 goal every year.
I mean, is simply hoping Jesse Crain and Matt Guerrier pitch better this season REALLY the plan (besides Mijares, who has great upside but we only have a small sample size)?
After what transpired last season, I would barely trust Guerrier to pitch the 6th inning.
Sure, they used poisoned Kool-Aid in Jonestown, but the Kool-Aid reference goes back much further than that. See author, Tom Wolfe: http://www.amazon.com/Electric-Kool-Aid-Acid-Test/ I believe that the most common use of the reference implies that the person speaking was psychedelically high.
What gets me is when people say it is BY DESIGN that the Twins assemble a team that is just good enough to win the division but not good enough to go all the way.
Sane:
DY for Leon Durham and the Straw
They will need all 4 outfielders. Cuddyer will break his back tripping over himself rounding second or break a finger sliding into a base and be out for an extended period of time. This guy has done NOTHING since he signed the big contract.
“Bad year” doesn’t mean “end of career” by definition.
Especially in baseball - Ask Brad Lidge.
WJ,
It’s hard to look at their roster year after painful year and think anything else.
Or Cliff Lee!
Lardo, I agree. Or, Kubel could hurt his knee and they’ll need Young to DH, Buscher could get hurt and they’ll need Cuddyer to back-up third, Span or Gomez could get hurt. When have the Twins ever had the same three outfielders all six months of the season?
WJ:
I think people come to that conclusion because the FO has been using the same MO with consistent results: Division champions and 1st round washouts (2001 excluded). Instead of tweaking the strategy in an effort to get over the hump, tehy still sign the likes of Livan Hernandez, et al. and do well IN SPITE of them.
WJ,
You know Cuddyer has been injury-prone (he’s the only guy I’ve ever heard who broke his back while running the bases without contact from another player) and unproductive for the last few years and that is the point I was making. He has been a bust since he signed. I hope he proves me wrong, but I’m not optimistic.
You guys are letting the (unfortunate) results serve as some kind of proof that there is a plan behind it all.
GCOK,
Many on this blog thought that Blake and DeRosa were the same-old, same-old type as last year’s Twins FA’s.
Texiera and CC are not feasible, and the next level gets minimum respect.
When/if Crede is signed, the wailing will begin about his injuries.
Don’t believe it?
Its a slam-dunk!
GCOkemos,
I emphatically agree with everything in your last post except the “do well”. They won 54% of their games and missed the playoffs. Is that really considered doing well?
Cuddyer is more “accident prone” than “injury prone”. His injuries last year were not because of any physical frailty. A guy hit a ball off his foot and he tore his finger sliding into a base.
Larbo, You are inferring that the Twins, and Morneau in particular, do not aspire to become elite. You insinuate that the Twins just want to give us mediocrity, and that only mediocre teams could possibly have a player under-perform come playoff time. Elite teams never have a player collapse? That is goofy thinking, my friend. Last off-season, the team was not on the cusp of attaining elite status, what with question marks at all five rotation spots and throughout the lineup. They improved beyond what any reasonable fan should have expected. They signed some stopgap types, with really spotty results. New guys came through on the other hand. So, this year is different. Now they are truly on the cusp of elite status. We can complain about the inactivity, and find fault with the few minor decisions made so far. But to label the team as intent on maintaining mediocrity? Silly.
Livan was signed for his experience and because he was known as an innings eater, both of which were needed with the youngest rotation in the Majors. Livan was never signed to replace Johan and I doubt if anyone considered keeping him around more than one year. So I think it is wrong to say the only signed someone like Livan because they wree cheap or didn’t want to win beyond the division.
1. If I see a ball coming at me, I get out of the way.
2. Gardenhire preaches to slide in feet first.
Call it whatever you want, if it continues to happen to the same guy, shouldn’t that say something about that guy.
birdofprey,
To think that the Twins FO, which has many ex-players, is trying to avoid excessive success is ridiculous.
Who do you know in real life, that is emotionally stable, has that as a goal?
It is human nature to want to succeed and win.
The Twins FO failures are not PLANNED failures.
From Wikipedia:
“The earliest known use of the term [Drinking the Kool-Aid] in its figurative, non-literal context (that is, outside descriptions of people actually drinking real Kool-Aid), is from a 1987 quote about former Washington, D.C., mayor Marion Barry in the Washington Post. The term is derived from the 1978 cult suicide in Jonestown, Guyana. Jim Jones, the leader of the Peoples Temple, persuaded his followers to move to Jonestown. Late in the year he ordered his followers to commit suicide by drinking grape-flavored Flavor Aid laced with potassium cyanide.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kool-Aid#.22Drinking_the_Kool-Aid.22
birdofprey,
My 2:58 PM post should not have been directed to you.
I changed subjects in mid-post.
Larbo:
I would say a .540 winpct. is “doing well” relative to what was expected before the 2008 season started. And I would say that was in spite of our FA signings. And *technically* you could call game 163 a playoff game.
Sane: Minnesota sports fans are a fickle lot - but there WERE some FA’s (and still are) that fall btwn CC/Tex and DeRosa/Blake caliber.
So, the phrase should really be: drinking the Flavor Aid.
Sane, I knew that preaching to the choir was not your MO.
I’m shocked that an employee wouldn’t publicly criticize his employer. I mean, it happens all the time, right? Players say bad things about their organization every day. That’s why when it happens it is such small, insignicant news, right?
bop,
If you want to look at last year only, that’s your prerogative, I, on the other hand, consider several years and look at the results. It’s about results and not feeling good about ourselves when we go to bed at night. Like a recently fired NFL coach once said, “we play to win the game”.
My first comment was about Morneau comparing the Twins to Kansas City or Cleveland. Do you think the Steelers give a cr*p about what the Browns or the Bengals do?
Ok, I think everyone here is hating me now. Good chatting with y’all.
GCOk,
I think Crede is the highest level NEEDED FA the Twins would actually go after.
Even Furcal was not a possibility, because he was apparently just waiting for the Dodgers to make a competitive offer.
How can they say they dont need anybody, they didnt even make the playoffs. They will never win anything if they depend on the players they got to get better, what about the players they have that will get worse..it goes both ways.
I think what a lot of us have been saying is that the Twins should avoid replacement players that only provide a potential MARGINAL improvement, because of the costs vs. the potential benefits. Example: no to Atkins for Span and Slowey, no to Blake at 3 years/$7M. The players we already have can probably give us incremental improvement, right? Personally, I’m still hoping for a blockbuster, like Liriano, Young and prospects for Peavey, Kouz, and prospects, something like that.
Shane,
YOU THE MAN!
mike,
You are right.
What an employee says is called prudent.
What he thinks is called silent.
I wish i could borrow the crystal ball that some people have so i could pick some sweet stocks. And please stop ripping on Kool-aid like it’s a bad thing.
Shane Hoeft makes a good point. Think of Rivas, Jacque Jones, Doug M., Cuddyer - young guys who were bound to only get better but hit their plateaus early.
Sane: Depending on his wrist/ the $$ needed, I think I would want Orlando Hudson over Crede.
Shane,
Young teams predominantly get better.
Old teams predominantly get worse.
The Twins are a young team.
Please notice the word “always” was NEVER used.
sane–
Your comment about Cliff Lee’s performance after a bad year reminds me that Rich Hill is out of options. Since the Twins aren’t going to sign Sheets, let’s trade for this year’s Cliff Lee, Rich Hill.
BC of ND,
Kool Aid is good stuff.
I think I’ll pick up a six-pack tonight.
Larbo, I share your frustration. I have been a fan since 1961.
This year is different.
Christ the Yankees are going to be sick this year. WS winner comes out of that division guaranteed. Pettite now is back as the NO 5 starter behind CC, Joba, Wang, and Burnett? Plus Teixiera, A-Rod, Nady, etc. etc.???? This ‘import expensive all-stars’ thing hasn’t worked out well for them for the last several years, but hard to see them going wrong with this bunch. Hopefully the New York media frenzy will crush their souls….
Good call, Shane. Twins who could very well do worse:
1)Punto
2)Delmon
3)Morneau (yep, you read that right)
Kool-Aide is only good with really crappy vodka.
I’m guessing Cuddy will slice his finger doing a card trick, and will require season ending ligament surgery.
BARKEEP!
Put a head on my schooner of Kool-Aid!
We need to trade Morneau. This team is coming dangerously close to being a contender.
Bop, I hope so.
Justin, I think everyone outside of NY and also the Mets fans will be cheering and hoping that the Yanks fall on their faces. It would be awesome.
Did someone say “vodka”? It’s almost happy hour.
1. If I see a ball coming at me, I get out of the way.
2. Gardenhire preaches to slide in feet first.
Larbo,
Cuddyer was hit with a line drive while on base. Even though he tried to get out of the way he was unable to.
Regarding Sliding, Gardy doesn’t preach sliding feet first. The rule of thumb is:
1st base - only slide to avoid tag when fielder up the line.
2nd base - feet first when trying to break up double play, whatever most comfortable when stealing.
3rd base - whatever most comfortable.
When Cuddyer injured his sliding into 3rd, he was wearing a wrist brace and the reason he got hurt is because he was cleated. His second hand injury I believe was a HBP.
birdofprey,
I LOVE the new mantra “sign some washed up old players”.
I am going to do some research, I suspect maybe as many as 20% of the current members of the Baseball Hall of Fame started out as young players. I’m sure the other 80+% probably started their careers as “washed up OLD players”.
Regards, 
from mlbtraderumors:
“The AP says the A’s are “close to finalizing” the Springer deal, with the physical the final step remaining. Not sure why they didn’t say an agreement has been reached, then.”
Well, Justin… we’ll see how you feel about adding no one when we are 15 games out of first. Man, I can’t stand company brownnosers…
The Yankees have been WS favorites for the last 15 years and according to Justin they are quaranteed again this year what was i thinking about the playoffs being a crap shoot.
‘I can’t stand company brownnosers…’
because they end up being your boss.
I predict the Twins will be in a better position to make a trade during the season WITHOUT having a Liriano or Garza or Baker in AAA. There always seemed to be a breakdown in talks when the other team demanded a player which Ryan refused to deal.
WJ,
“There always seemed to be a breakdown in talks when the other team demanded a player which Ryan refused to deal.”
TR should have asked “Who is your 2nd choice?”
3rd?
4th?
sane, that is completely my point. It was Garza or nothing, or Liriano and nothing, and Ryan refused to blink. If TR asked “who’s your 2nd choice?”, the answer was probably “who is YOUR 2nd choice”.
I’m just guessing, of course.
Pete would you rather he said “Come on man Justin cant do everything give me some help” would that sound better?
There always seemed to be a breakdown in talks when the other team demanded a player which Ryan refused to deal.
For that matter, Walter, there are precious few examples of players Ryan DIDN’T refuse to deal.
I think one important thing to remember is that the Twins exceeded just about everyone’s expectations last year. 2008 wasn’t necessarily the year they were supposed to challenge for the division. One component of the team’s success was how weak the division turned out to be (Detroit got old in spectacular fashion and Cleveland really underachieved). It’s easier to win 88 games in the Central as it is currently constituted than in the East as it is currently constituted. I think it safe to say that the Twins would not have won 88 games had they had to play the Rays, Yankees, Red Sox, and Jays 19 times each. So maybe the club doesn’t have to improve much to win the division, but they are not the equal of the Rays, Red Sox, or Yankees which is important if the goal is something other than winning the division.
Dragon, that’s good. Thrylos and gang can help with the research, but only if the “facts” support the “truth”.
jon, great line.
I need some yummy Kool-Aide.
Christ the Yankees are going to be sick this year.
Isn’t that what they say about the Yankees every year?
Boy. Could you imagine being a Rays fan? The Yankees spending all that money, the Red Sox turning some major deals…and all the Rays do is sign Burrel?
Remember, Ryan was going after prospects; he was going after MLB starters to add to the team down the stretch. Let’s say it was Texiera a couple of years ago. Texas says “we want Garza”. Ryan is supposed to say “No way. But I’ll make you take Boof Bonser, and LIKE IT”???
I meant “Ryan WASN’T going after prospects”. Sorry.
“but they are not the equal of the Rays, Red Sox, or Yankees ”
I wonder how many Rays fans thought they were equal to the Yanks/Red Sox last spring.
Also, I see the Rays potentially being 07-08 Rockies Pt. 2.
The Rockies came outta NOWHERE in 2007 with a bunch of young guys and surprised the crap outta everybody by going all the way to the WS.
So then the national media hopped on the bandwagon and said “Get ready because now their a factor! And then the Rox didn’t even get into the race.
The Rays came outta NOWHERE in 2008 with a bunch of young guys and surprised the crap outta everybody by going all the way to the WS.
And now suddenly they’re the team to beat in the East…
Let’s see if the Rays can actually follow up their success before we crown them, hmmm?
they don’t have to improve,though they should. ny will be better this year, and we weren’t quite at the level of tampa or boston last year. we could use a good power hitting DH, bonds, and a couple of bullpen pitchers better than guardado. a lot of the young players should improve though, and we have a lot of talent in our farm system.
BC od ND, what Rays fans were there last spring? There were barely any during the stretch run. The Rays were somewhat of a surprise (many writers kept saying “just wait, they’re going to be good”), but then again, they didn’t stand pat. They improved their pitching (going back to late 2007, not just the Garza deal) and had Longoria coming up.
GLEN:
I caught that!
“Barry” Bonds ? ? ?
Boneyard I heard that when the Rays made it to the WS the Tampa Bay residents said “We have a baseball team?”
When the organization bases its comeback argument solely on RBI in regards to the 3B position, you really have to wonder.
If a new third baseman hits 20 HRs, that is only an increase of 9 over the 11 that Buscher and Harris hit.
Nine more HRs last year would still have put the Twins dead last behind KC in that category. 3B defense is another story.
WJ, right, 20 HR is only an increase of 9. But that’s almost a 100% increase. And it would be 9 badly needed HR. You’ve gotta start somewhere. Also, don’t forget the margin between average and good at this level is pretty small. The difference between a .250 hitter and a .300 hitter is only 1 hit a week.
Walter, the Twins did not get 11 HRs out of third base last season, they got 7.
You can’t combine Buscher and Harris season stats. Harris got many of his ABs at another position.
Boneyard, I think what we need is a combo of the 20 HRs AND some better fielding. Crede could hit 30 and has a slick glove.
USAFChief,
So right. In fact, I criticized thrylos98 a few days ago for making the same mistake. You got me.
I trust Justin. If I were a player I wouldn’t be looking to dump guys off last year’s team. They did good and expect to do the same or better this year. Baseball may be a business but he guys are human and I would just as soon have more stability than shuffling guys around just to shuffle.
WJ, I agree some D would be nice, but Crede’s health still makes me nervous.
WJ, I agree some D would be nice, but Crede’s health still makes me nervous.
It’s Buscher’s health that makes ME nervous.
As in, there’s an excellent chance Buscher will be healthy all year.
That should make us ALL nervous.
The important number about the 3B production last year is the .730 OPS, which translates to 90 OPS+ (which is 10% worse than the league average for the position.)
Defense has to improve there and that can happen if Harris is handled the job on a daily basis spelled occasionally by Tolbert or Tolleson and Buscher returns to Rochester where he belongs.
T: it’s about probabilities, though. Given their success last year, and what they’ve added this year, who is more likely to win more games, the Twins or the Rays? Of course things can turn out differently (and they have to face the Yanks and RedSox over and over, not the Indians and WhiteSox).
I’d place my money on the team that had more success, and added a bat, if I had to place my money somewhere.
Strawman:
Standing pat doesn’t work. It didn’t work for the Indians last year.
Strawman over.
Given their success last year, and what they’ve added this year, who is more likely to win more games, the Twins or the Rays?
Given the unbalanced schedules and the facts that the AL East got more competitive and the AL Central less competitive, at this point it’s a toss up.
Good one, Chief.
Hey, I’m not happy about it, but this Yankees team is a lot better than the ones from the last few years, at least on paper. Last year in particular, that rotation was a mess. Not anymore. Looks like potentially the best in baseball to me. AND they swapped out Giambi for Teixiera. Maybe that division will just implode on itself as a result of the massive gravitational pull created from the size of the wallets of the players they got over there.
I wouldn’t worry about Buscher’s health. If he starts as bad as everyone thinks he will, he won’t be at 3B very long. He’s not Punto.
WJ,
here is the deal:
*if Buscher starts bad
*if Perkins starts bad
*if Guerrier starts bad
and takes Gardy and Smith their usual month or two to make the necessary changes, the Twins might be 10-15 games behind by then…
Yeah. And Morneau has started slow the last two seasons (at least). But I think Gardy has shown he will pull Buscher without hesitation (unlike some other players). Perkins is another story. I think Gardy would stick with him if he comes out slowly. Who would he replace him with? Perkins would have to really struggle to get him out of the rotation.
let’s just all get it through our head’s that they aren’t going to sign anyone.i rember the same morneau lastyear at the trade deadline saying we need to add a bat.why would they come out and say they need a bat they are probably told to say that. bill smith is a peice of shi- and i am sick of listening to gardy try and explain himself for what he said about dy.but yet we sign a big fat ass who sits on the bench and nobody but the twins want him.
Gardy has shown he will pull Buscher without hesitation
based on last September when Buscher had .578 OPS and awarded 54 PA while Harris with a .878 OPS for the month was awarded 44 PA, I seriously doubt that Gardy will pull Buscher on time… Same thing with Cuddyer btw…
I don’t think Gardy looks at OPS when he decides who to play.
Gardy won’t pull Cuddaver because Cuddaver is his boy. Maybe Buscher has joined the inner circle as well.
And if–big if, but if–Buscher loses his job, then what? Harris full time at third? Harris/Tolbert?
Those aren’t good solutions, either, IMO, and if we’re expecting the Twins to go out during the season and add talent, well, let’s just say I don’t think that’s very likely.
yes, the unbalanced schedule hurts the rays. Ok, if they played the same teams, whould you put your money on if you had to?
USAChief: why do you say that. Earlier this decade when they had no DH they went out and added, um. Wait, when they needed a 3B they added, um. Yeah, as Torii and Johan said, “always playing for a tomorrow that never comes”.
*two guys that were willing to speak their mind, publicly.
Did the Twins make a move? Who’s Caddaver?
Hopefully, the Twins have learned that the moves they have made over the last few years have been disasterous. Their only real move is to take a close look at Crede if he hasn’t already been signed by another team. Crede destroyed Twins pitching last year.
Why are we so obsessed with getting an eigth inning guy? What is wrong with putting Mijares in that role? He was lights out last year when he got called up. There is no reason to think he can’t do it again. I would much rather have a bat for the left side.
Who’s Caddaver?
Who’s on first.
What’s on second.
I don’t know who’s on third.
Caddaver’s in right.
I’d place my money on the team that had more success, and added a bat, if I had to place my money somewhere.
Except there are two teams that both made even more changes. The Yankees added arguably a better bat and two better pitchers.
The Red Sox also bolstered their staff.
BC of ND-
Shouldn’t the goal be to win the World Series?
I’m happy as long as we lock-up our own players.
T said:”Except there are two teams that both made even more changes. The Yankees added arguably a better bat and two better pitchers.”
And, likely to finish 3rd.
Regards,
thrylos,
I have saved your 4:43 comment for early May.
We’ll see
Regards,
Dragon,
for sure I hope that it does not happen that all those guys have bad starts but I am not confident that if the (and Cuddyer) do, Gardy (and Smith) will act fast enough to right the team…
Cuddaver is in right? When did the Twins get this guy named Cuddaver and was Cuddyer traded for this Cuddaver fellow?
Interesting 2009 schedule:
Boston 4H 2A
Tampa 3H 3A
NYY 3H 4A
Toronto 4H 4A
Balt 3H 2A
LA Angels6H 4A
Oak 3H 7A
Seattle 7H 3A
Texas 3H 7A
April/May 30H 21A
Home:
Toronto 4
LA Angels 3
Tampa Bay 3
Milwaukee 3
Boston 4
Away:
Boston 2
NY Yankees 4
Tampa Bay 3
3 10 game road trips
1 9 game road trip
1 9 game home stand
Regards,
I think its smart by the twins not to make any drastic moves. They have one guy in the minors that right now is actually rated worth anything…Deolis Guerra, and he is probably still probably sometime before he is up. Why give up all this young talent, that is so affordable, just to get a bat. If they can get Joe Crede for an affordable price, then I would be fine with that, but certainly not worthy of stretching on it. Only move I didnt like was the Punto contract…probably could have gotten more for your buck for someone else, then a pinch hitter on most teams for 8 million for 2 years. Just my thought though.
Jake-
I think everyone loves the upside of Mijares, but we only have a small sample size to work with.
The Twins have the money to go out an get another experienced option for the back innings to get to Nathan.
Same team…same result. Good, but not quite good enough. Need some tweaking to get fans excited and hopeful
And, (The Yankees are) likely to finish 3rd.
As long as you’re bookmarking, Dragon, bookmark that one too.
The team is solid. There are few gaps. A third base platoon isn’t a terrible idea and we’ve got the setup guy we’re looking for in Bonser. He cranked it up to the mid to high 90’s last season when he committed to the job. Mix that with his nasty curve and he’s perfect stuff to setup Nathan.
I still think by putting Cuddyer at third we get that righthanded power bat we’re looking for.
Thyrlos98 is an fool. Tolleson has never, ever played 3rd base.
FOOL.
Trade Thyrlos98. NOW.
Or I can just whip his ass…..
USAF Chief,
Will do.
If I can find that bet I will invest in it as well. Should be good odds.
Luckily the odds aren’t based on facts, rather who the money supports. That’s usually the “big” teams. Love opposing the “big” teams. One could almost make a living opposing the Yankees every game. Only win 40-45% of the time, but at average odds of 1.5/2-1…a reasonable profit.
Much better value in “live” perceived 2nd tier teams.
Regards,
Talking about under performing,and the big bats, I’m so tired of the complainers. Lets talk Yankees, they have the big bats, prime time players, everything you complainers talk about. what is their payroll??? Where were they the past few years when it came to the playoffs. I will take the twins anyday. Every player on the Twins gives it their all every game… GO TWINS….
Maybe this year they will forgo signing the off-season veteran that turns out to be a bust and instead be more active around the deadline, assuming they are still in contention.
[…] Christensen posted a blog called Twins Players Don’t Seem Upset by Team’s Inactivity. “Torii Hunter used to have the occasional grumble about the front office’s inaction. Johan […]
Without a power hitting third baseman, and a setup man with strikeout abilty, and an era of 3 or below, via free agency, the Twins will finish third in the division with a record of 79-83. The players are under big contracts, so of course they are going to defend the front office! Do you people think they are stupid?
Teams don’t have to spend like the Yankees to compete for the world series, but they need to address needs, and the Twins haven’t once again, so we shouldn’t expect too much in 2009!
Well said, my work is done here.
Where is Adam Dunn? I have not heard of him signing anywhere yt
You’re exactly right rick.
mnvikboy, the Yankees made the playoffs 13 straight years. They won one more game than the Twins last year, they just happened to be in the toughest division in baseball. But, sure, if you’d rather not make the playoffs nearly every year, go for it.
The Twins players are not too upset with the lack of activity on the trade front.What the heck do they know compared to the bloggers on this board!
geno they know who signs their pay checks!!
If I was GM, and anyone mentioned Slowey or Perkins in a trade, I’d back down too. Young starting pitching trumps middle-aged third basemen EVERYTIME.
rick: Manny Rameriez also doesn’t have a home yet. I’m wondering how much of the crap he pulled on his way out of Boston is factoring in to that.
“But, sure, if you’d rather not make the playoffs nearly every year, go for it.”
mikewantswins -
The Tinws have been in the playoffs for 4 of the last 7 years. In fact, if you count game 163 as a playoff game, it’s 5 out of 7.
I thought you were of the feeling that getting to the playoffs mean nothing - if you don’t win the Series, what’s the point? Perhaps I have you confused with another poster, however…
People wrote the Twins off last year. ME included! BUT they really showed me that the young guys have allot of heart.
Let’s see what happens this year b4 writing them off again
I actually like the non move/s so far.
There wasn’t much out there for long term that wouldn’t cost too much in trade
“Just” making the playoffs is what makes the Yankees great.
“Just” making the playoffs is what makes the Twins crappy with (obviously) no desire to do better.
It all makes sense.
The Yankees are immaterial.
Just because the Yankees spend like drunken sailors doesn’t mean the Twins FO should be off the hook for pinching their pennies.
Just because the Yankees spend like drunken sailors doesn’t mean the Twins FO should be off the hook for pinching their pennies.
Excellent post, Ben. Spot on.
Maybe the reason the players don’t seem all that concerned is that they know something we tend to forget.
Fans (myself included) get so worked up over why the team doesn’t do something to meet the “obvious” needs before the season starts.
Last season, everyone talked about how the Twins “needed” to sign starting pitching (I remember at least one comment suggesting the Twins should have gone after Bedard since they knew they were losing Santana) and a CF (does nobody remember all the debate over the pros and cons of going after Corey Patterson, Kenny Lofton, et al?). The bullpen was going to be a strength and the infield was set with the additions of Everett and Lamb, but Span was obviously a bust and had no chance to make it in the Bigs and Gomez clearly wasn’t going to be ready.
If they’d signed someone like Lofton, a lot of people here (you know who you are) would have been quite satisfied that Smith had filled a “need” for a year… and chances are we never would have seen Span emerge (unless it was wearing another uniform after being traded).
This year, all we seem to see are the “obvious” glaring holes at 3B and set-up arm.
Which leads to my major concerns right now. Complacency with regard to the starting rotation and OF. The latter can be dealt with easy enough by resisting the temptation to trade any of the five OF/DH candidates. Mark my words, if the Twins trade Young or any of the other four, at some critical point in the season, they’ll come to regret it. Having all that ability and potential around is an advantage, not a problem.
As for the rotation, we may really like the way those 5 young pitchers looked last year, but when is the last time you remember the Twins (or anyone, really) getting through a season with 5 starting pitchers? The Twins are likely to need at least 2-3 more SPs to contribute in significant ways during the course of the season. I get this queasy feeling that as the season goes on, we’re going to look around and say, “wow, we could have had Sheets for relative peanuts… we sure could have used him now.”
It’s a long season and the problems you think you have in January rarely seem to be the ones you end up with in July. Guess that’s what makes it interesting.
Thoughtful post, Crikket. Often, you don’t see where the real problems are going to surface. However, that’s what a GM is paid to do: evaluate, predict, and act. We can’t expect perfection, but when the roster hasn’t changed, we can be relatively certain of where the problems are going to be because we have a track record of what the strengths and weaknesses are(we know, for instance, Buscher is not going to be a good fielder in ‘09).
Whether we “know” that or not, I agree it’s not to be expected. But the point is, we don’t know who might step in to that spot and claim it. It may not be Buscher at all.
A year ago, LEN3 posted his “top 20 Twins Prospects” and Span barely made the list. Mijares didn’t… not even “on the cusp”. (I’m not picking on LEN, specifically… I just happened to glance at some of the old blog entries from a year ago.)
Maybe Valencia claims the job in March and refuses to let it go. Maybe Crede comes aboard and looks healthy.
It’s fun to discuss and debate… or at least it should be fun. Point is simply that it’s really not worth getting in too much of a lather over.
“Just because the Yankees spend like drunken sailors doesn’t mean the Twins FO should be off the hook for pinching their pennies.”
Just because the Indians gave Kerry Wood $20.5 million to close games - with the possibility of it becoming $31.5 - doesn’t mean it was a good investment, either.
JimCrikket–I heartily agree with your post, excellent work. One point, though…when you say we might say “wow, we could have had Sheets for relative peanuts… we sure could have used him now”…I don’t think it will take an injury to say that. Sheets is a much better pitcher than Blackburn, and especially, Perkins. We could use him now, as a member of our rotation for as much of the 2009 season as possible.
The Twins are in an interesting situation that is very rare for them and puts them in a unique position:
1)Free agent prices are on the decline, making free agent signings that are usually impossible for the Twins actually affordable, and in some cases, cheap.
2)The Twins have not tied their hands with extra contracts, and so they have payroll flexibility. That is a very rare spot at this point of this offseason.
Sheets would cost a draft pick. However, that draft pick would likely come back at the end of the contract, and as has been pointed out, first round draft picks aren’t a sure bet.
Our Front Office was willing to pay Johan Santana $20mm / year for 2009-2012. Getting a pitcher for $8mm / year for 2009-2010 that is almost as good should be a no-brainer, in my opinion.
There may never be a perfect storm like this for the Twins again.
I agree, Pete. Other teams make mistakes too.
But you can’t give the Twins brownie points because the Yankees or the Tigers or the Indians make mistakes.
AM,
“However, that draft pick would likely come back at the end of the contract”
Good point.
And if the Twins were out of the race by July 31, they would be able to trade Sheets for prospects and revert back to building for 2010 with Perkins / Blackburn if they choose.
There are any number of reasons why the palyers wouldn’t say the team needed to make changes. Here are just some of them.
-They want to avoid contravercy.
-They don’t want to criticize (or appear to criticize) their teammates.
-They don’t care as long as they get paid.
-They believe changes aren’t needed.
There are a lot of things that would go into the last one. JemC has pointed out a couple, but I would add that the players really believe in their team and their teammates. Using the bullpen as an example, I’m sure many (most) of the Twins think either Crain or Guerrier (or both) will be an effective setup option for 2009. Also, why wouldn’t the players think that their young team would play even better in ‘09 than they did last year?
That last post was from me. You know you’re having a bad day when you can’t even get your username right…
Ben W,
“you can’t give the Twins brownie points because the Yankees or the Tigers or the Indians make mistakes.”
But you can expect the Twins to be just as prone to SNAFU as all the other teams. (N stands for “normal”, as you know)
It all shows that player evaluation is a very inexact science.
Ben W -
But you can’t penalize them either for not offering a 3rd year to a 35 year old Casey Blake.
Guys it has sickened me for years listening to idiotic talking heads refer to drinking the kool-aid.Obviously this oratory comes from the compasionless,deluted,self absorbed idiots, who have no understanding of the hisory of the human tradgedy and acts of cowardice associated Jim Jones and his own private executions, all in the name of his “God”. How about using a few Hitler and shower references for good laughs. Hopefully people will see this reference for what its worth, disgusting.
Sheets’ fastball has stayed between 92.5mph and 93mph each of the last three seasons. Last year, he pitched 198 innings. Fangraphs has his value produced last year at $20.6mm.
Santana’s fastball has gone from 93.1mph in 2006 to 91.7mph in 2007 to 91.2mph in 2008. Still, he pitched 234 innings last year. His value, according to Fangraphs, was $21.4mm.
Those are pretty close numbers. One would be costing us 4 years and $80mm. One would cost us 2 years and $16mm.
Those are not close numbers.
And for the record, I was a strong proponent of keeping Santana last offseason; adding a fifth year to the extension.
It’s amazing to me that now a nearly equivalent pitcher is available for less than half the price, and less than half the time-commitment….
And the Twins aren’t even considering it.
I actually used Sheets’ name as an example more so than someone that the Twins should specifically target, but as some of you point out, he’s a pretty darn good example of a guy with good potential return if you’re willing to take a bit of a risk. Would I consider him for $15mm? Heck no. But at the prices we’re looking at right now, why wouldn’t you? Why wouldn’t just about anyone in the league? Just because starting pitcher isn’t currently perceived as a “need” and set-up man/3B are?
I guess my point is that when you’re in the Twins’, you look for value wherever you can find it, especially when you’re talking about pitching.
Sheets comes with very significant injury concerns, that can’t be ignored.
Those are pretty close numbers. One would be costing us 4 years and $80mm. One would cost us 2 years and $16mm.
Those are not close numbers.
One has been the model of health and durability, the other can’t stay healthy and had his should fall apart on him yet again at the end of the season.
Sheets comes with very serious injury concerns, that cannot be ignored.
AM,
Santana and Sheets are NOT equivalent because of DURABILITY.
All other abilities are worthless if a player has no DUR-ability.
Why wouldn’t the Brewers re-sign Sheets?
Who needs starting pitching worse than the Brewers?
I think Seth’s take today comes closest to what I have posted before.
A little different take on FA market, and the potential flexability to FIX in the May-July time frame, WHEN there may be some more clarity regarding the current crop of young pups.
The REAL and only question, is will/would the FO pull the trigger then?
What a concept…the Twins with the financial flexability to take on higher skilled, possibly younger salary dumps. Can’t make this stuff up
Regards,
True, Sheets is an injury risk. He’s pitched 106, 141, and 198IP in the last three years.
If he weren’t an injury risk, we couldn’t get him for $8mm/year.
But even if Sheets only pitches 100innings, which it seems he is capable of doing, he is worth a win more than Perkins. And, if Sheets gets injured, we have Perkins to back him up.
You know who else is an injury risk? Baker, Slowey, Blackburn, and Perkins, not to mention Liriano. Young pitchers increasing their workloads are injury risks.
By the way, one of Sheets’ biggest injuries was something completely unrleated to his arm. It was a weird eardrum thing that caused his balance to be off. I believe that was a freak occurence that would be unlikely to be recurring.
JimCrikket,
Good post.
Regargs,
The thing about FA’s is there are inevitably going to be failures. There will be successes, too. The probability of success depends on the particular player at issue. As sane pointed out, this is in inexact science.
However, the players the Twins target are on the end of the spectrum where the player is cheap and one can be fairly sure they are not going to be great additions. There is, on the other hand, a slight chance the player will turn out to be the best $3 million the club ever spent.
Last season was supposed to be a rebuilding year once Hunter and Santana were gone and I thought the club should have just let the young guys go out there and see what we had. Instead, the club signed 4 players who turned out to be terrible and took away playing time from the young guys. That outcome was not a certainty, but it should not have been any kind of surprise to anyone. That little experiment cost the club what, $14.6 million last year and $2.6 million in Lamb’s salary this year? I would prefer that the club bank that money and take a run at FA’s who fill a need and have a probability of succeeding. There will be failures, obviously. Who oculd foresee, for example, Richie Sexson would get that bad that fast? But that’s the way it goes. I can’t fault the Mariners for taking a shot.
The point is, totally avoiding the upper end of the FA market is not a good approach. You just have to accept not every signing will work out, even if the club has limited resources. I’m not saying I want the Twins to be calling a press conference 3 times an offseason announcing the latest signing. I spent a lot of time in the Bay Area watching the Giants do that but they can’t bring a player up through the system. That also is frustrating. What I am saying is that, like with anything in life, a little balance wouldn’t hurt, even if player evaluation is an inexact science.
Just because the Yankees spend like drunken sailors doesn’t mean the Twins FO should be off the hook for pinching their pennies.
But, as sane pointed out, recently the two have had very similiar results.
Again, the point isn’t so much specific to Sheets. If he’s not the guy you want because you don’t want to give up a draft pick for a guy with injury concerns, what about Wolf, Loober or Garland? Don’t think they require compensation.
Again, I’m not saying the 5 young guys we have now aren’t capable… just that 5 is never enough for a season and with prices falling for these guys, I’d be at least kicking the tires.
Sorry guys!
The Twins f/o new what needs there were late last year and have done absolutely NOTHING=I mean NOTHING (Exception Dickey=meaningless acquisition). Yes the Twins have a youthful base and a decent, young, developing pitching staff, but, at all times, one must try to put the best team on the field, whether you hold your main pieces or have to move some. The situatuion we have now is basically status quo, with an emphasis on each player improving dramatically. In essence, we are no better than last years team: we had an exceptional team hwrisp % and a youthful staff that far surpassed any projections. The only way I can see this team improve is for some of the players to hit the long ball a little more. Otherwise, we are looking a repeat of last year=87 wins and looking on the outside of the playoffs again. Good work Billy! Our team is spending SIGNIFICANTLY less than they did 2 YEARS ago (and that is with a new stadium they have coming). REMEMBER, they (Twins) said they would significantly increase the payroll=YEA RIGHT!!!! Talk about talking to a snake charmer and or gypsy!
Crikket, Sheets is too pricey for the Twins to kick the tires on even at the price he’s likely to fetch. Plus, we’re happy with the club we have now.
Boneyard–I remind you–$5mm for Livan, and an offer of $20mm/year for Johan. $8mm for Sheets is affordable.
Sheets looks like he’ll go to Texas. Nolan Ryan draw, home in Dallas, etc.
Sheets is a Twins-style pitcher–great control. In 2006 his K to BB numbers were 116 to 16. For his career, his ratio is 3.85 K/BB. That’s better than all of the Twins’ starters except Slowey.
AM, I was being sarcastic.
Sorry, Boneyard. But, as your sarcasm implies, the FO likely thinks that. (Especially with the draft pick. I wonder how much the Twins FO values its 1st round draft pick at? Obviously it can have a lot of long-term value, but that is also risky.)
REMEMBER, they (Twins) said they would significantly increase the payroll=YEA RIGHT!!!!
You’re right. The Twins should just give every guy on their current roster a 10% pay increase. That way payroll goes up.
And since payroll = success, that means that their odds of winning will improve about 10% as well (or perhaps more, I’m not sure how the statistics would actually work out)
LPBOSTOK:
Some posters have pointed out the Kool-Aid reference was around before the Jonestown trajedy. It is terrible irony that a Kool-Aid reference is associated with that trajedy.
Tolleson has never, ever played 3rd base
in 2006 he was the starting 3B in Beloit before he moved to Ft Myers mid season and took over third because Luke Hughes and David Winfree were playing 3B with the Miracle… He played some 3B but has been blocked in the minors because of the presence of Hughes and Valencia
But, as sane pointed out, recently the two (Twins/Yankees) have had very similiar results.
No, T. They haven’t.
The Yankees have made the playoffs every season since 1995 except 2008. That’s 13 of 14 if you’re counting.
They have been in 6 World Series in that span, winning 4.
They’ve won over 100 games 4 times in that span, and won 95 or more another 5 times. They’ve won less than 90 games only 3 times in that span (and one of those was in ’95’s short season).
All of that while playing in what most people would say has been a tougher division for most of those years.
I don’t really think that’s ‘very similar’ to what the Twins have accomplished recently.
You’re right. The Twins should just give every guy on their current roster a 10% pay increase. That way payroll goes up.
If they did, they’d still be below what they’ve told us they will spend on payroll.
Of course, they could also spend another 10% by adding better players, in which case added payroll might very well equal success.
Seems to have worked damn well for the Yankees.
I don’t really think that’s ‘very similar’ to what the Twins have accomplished recently.
If you consider “Recently” to be 10 years ago…cool.
I was thinking more along the lines of 2002. When Gardy took over and the Twins turned around.
If you want to compare the Yankees success to that of the Twins (Senators pre-1960) back to 1919, I will have to recant.
I was speaking about the last 5-6 years.
I’ve read quite a few posts comparing Santana to Sheets. I agree when they are pitching. But, Sheets has a very real durability issue.
Oops. Shoulda refreshed before posting. I’m really not as dumb as my post makes me appear
Boneyard,
How’s this for a thought? Maybe the 4 guys who were the “little experiment” last year actually helped the younger guys come to grips with the reality of MLB. Maybe they paved the way for success. Maybe this was part of BS’s master plan.
Well probably not the last thing.
well… They may not be “Upset” but, this cat is! here is the FA (top tier) at 3rd base and DH for next year:
Third basemen
Adrian Beltre
Chone Figgins
Chipper Jones
Melvin Mora
Ty Wigginton
DH:
DHs
Jason Giambi
Aubrey Huff
Gary Sheffield
There is a GOOD reason Crede is looking for a one year!
I was thinking more along the lines of 2002. When Gardy took over and the Twins turned around.
OK.
Since 2002 (last 7 seasons):
Twins: 622-512 (.549).
Four seasons over 90 wins, including one season over 95. One season under .500.
Four division championships (last in 2006). Four trips to the postseason, one trip to the ALCS.
Yankees: 680-453 (.600).
Six seasons over 90 wins, including five seasons over 95 and three over 100. No seasons under .500.
Five division championships (plus one Wild Card). Six trips to the postseason, two trips to the ALCS, one trip to the World Series.
More similar? Yes.
Very similar? No.
Play ball!
