Kubel’s contract worth about $7 million
Posted on January 27th, 2009 – 12:50 PMBy Joe Christensen
The Twins are simply waiting for the lab work from Jason Kubel’s physical before announcing his new deal, an expected formality. Players were congratulating him all weekend at TwinsFest.
We’re hearing his deal is a two-year contract for about $7 million, with an option for 2011 that would be worth an additional $5 million. His 2009 salary will be about $2.75 million.
Kubel, 26, is on the Twins’ caravan this week in South Dakota, where he’s being honored as a native son. Kubel was born in Belle Fourche, S.D., but his family soon settled in Palmdale, Calif.
215 Responses to "Kubel’s contract worth about $7 million"
So 2.75 this year….about 5 million next year…and then another 5 million if they pick up the option?
Interesting. Don’t teams normally front load the contracts rather than backload?
For a player Kubel’s age the backloading is pretty standard. Sometimes for older players the contract is frontloaded.
Seems like a good price for both Kubel and the Twins. If he continues to build on his last two season’s $5 million in 2010 will be a bargain!
Maybe would have been smarter to frontload this contract since it appears the Twins will again be under their proposed budget for 2009.
T,
contracts that buy out arbitration years are usually paid at guesstimation of the arbitration rates. Since he’d get more in 2010, they structure the contratcs that way.
This is higher than I expected; based on the arb numbers, I figured it would come in between $10mm and $11mm for the three years.
Regardless, kudos to the Twins for locking up a year of Kubel’s free agency. Kubel has an upside significantly higher than 1 win above replacement, and that’s what they are paying him for.
Now, let’s see if Zack Greinke can serve as a model for the Mauer extension, please. Or just offer Mauer Morneau’s contract? It helps having Joe Nathan saying that he’s thanking his lucky stars that he signed a long-term deal with the Twins.
We’ll still take credit for Kubel as a native South Dakotan… Though I wonder what’s going on in Oakland’s scouting department. They had three SD boys on the roster in ‘08 with Ellis, Foulke, and Duchscherer.
wow!! That’s actually quite a bit lower than I expected. I figured something like $3.5 and $6 million with an $8 million option… this deal looks pretty good!
I’m with AJ. Frontloading this contract would have made more sense. Overall I think it seems a little high but that’s okay I guess.
Compared to Cuddaver’s contract, Kubel’s is a bargain.
Yes, 3 years at $23 million plus a $12million doesn’t look so good right now….
But I would happily sign up for 6 year, $80million contract for Mauer.
Glanzer,
If you look at the A’s draft board from this past year they took Dusty Colman form Sioux Falls even though he said he wasn’t going to sign and gave him 2nd/3rd round $ to steel him from Wichita State plus said they’d pay for his college if he wanted to finish his degree. The A’s obviously have figured out the SD connection.
I like this deal, one of the best signings the Twins have done recently. Good for the Twins and good for Kubel.
Good for Kubel–he earns every cent of it! I make $30,000 teaching elementary students–I’m way overpaid!
Great deal. I really expected that 2011 option to be around $7 million or more. A 29 year old with 20+ homer potential while hitting league average otherwise for $5 million in 2011 is definitely a bargain. I’m getting optimistic that we can get something done with Mauer long term this Spring.
We need to get Mauer signed. The sooner the better. We do not want to get into a bidding war with the Yankee’s, Red Sox, Braves, Dodgers, or Angels. That would not be good.
Great deal.
So even if Guerrier wins his case, they’re still at just under 60 mil for ‘09.
Too bad the Twins didn’t upgrade this position. I don’t think that would be hard if they were willing to spend a little. Last I heard Barry Bonds is available. Sure he has a history, but in the end whatever he may have engaged in was done by plenty of others who have skated so far. Or somebody else. Kubel has prove his mediocrity.
buntmore.com, was that sarcasm? Hope so.
another couple of good years and kubel will be making “punto” money.
jhawk90,
If Guerrier wins his arbitration case with his 2008 performance, the system is badly flawed.
[…] Joe Christensen says Kubel’s two-year deal is for about MM, with a 2011 option for […]
wow what a waist of money kubel will never have another year like he did lastyear good deal bill smith just another example on how u suck and need to go on a diet
Fools. This is a very good contract for the Twins. If you are one of the fools who think this contract should have been front loaded, you obviously do not understand baseball contracts with regard to a players arbitration years. And if you are even a bigger fool that thinks this is too much to pay Kubel because you are overpaid at $30,000 yr as a teacher, you obviously don’t understand supply and demand economics!!! In fact, you are probably right buntmore, you are over paid at $30,000/year!!!!
Not bad for a state that didnt have High School baseball until a few years ago. I always liked hitting in those early season legion tourneys in SD, becasue those of us across the MN border have been swinging the bat for 4 months, while the pitcher hadnt thrown a ball in 8 months…
Of course, Kubel sucks so who cares? Too bad they can’t find a DH that can hit and drive in runs.
I think teachers are underpaid AND this is a good deal for the Twins.
I don’t buy the false choice.
why isn’t Mauer signed to a long-term contract yet? Why isn’t Crede signed to a short-term contract yet?
Of course, Kubel sucks so who cares? Too bad they can’t find a DH that can hit and drive in runs.
Agreed he isn’t that good. Not worth the contract.
True RyanW, I did give a false choice. I was merely trying to point out buntmore’s sillyness. Most teacher’s that I know make around $50K+/year after a couple of years on the job - not bad for 9 months of work with excellent benefits!!!
Kubel was the 3rd best hitter on the team last year, he doesn’t stink. he drives me crazy sometimes with strikouts, but come on!!! In his minor league career, he was as highly touted as either Mauer or Morneau. An unfortunate injury interrupted that, but last year indicates that he is back on the upswing.
rich3 and purplepeoplebleeter -
do you watch baseball? Kubel hit 3 fewer HRs than our MVP in limited time. He has the minor league track record to project to be a 290+ hitter with 20+ hr every year. explain to me how he is not worth that money
Casey Blake (2008) .274/.345/.463/808
Jason Kubel (2008) .272/.335/.471/806
I hope those who argue that this is a bad deal for the Twins have never argue that we should have signed a 35 year old Casey Blake for 1 year and $10.5 million more than a 26 year old Kubel.
RyanW - and that was with Blake playing in a much more hitter-friendly park than Kubel.
You may want to factor in:
Third-baseman (difficult defense included) vs. DESIGNATED HITTER!!!!
Good price,decent player.
Overall good move on the Twins part.
Ahh good trick, pointing out
I do not know a teacher that makes $50k+ “after couple years on the job.”
Unless by “a couple” you mean 15 and the completion of a masters degree. Go check out a salary schedule at your local district. Compare it to the salaries of people in the business world with simular schooling. Then talk.
And it is 10 months of often 60+ hour weeks of the most important work in our society. If it is such an easy gig, why are there so many people that can’t cut it?
But lets get back to the signing…
I am not sure factoring in Blake’s defense will help this argument. He was serviceable in his early 30s, but it is on a rapid decline.
This deal is a no-brainer… great deal for the Twins and congrats to Kubel. He deserved it.
The Blake comparisons are a bit unfortunate because a. (as sane said) he is a 3B and not a DH and b. he is RH with some pop. Both of those attributes are of more pressing need for the Twins than a LH DH.
Now that the DH position has been filled for 2-3 years, time to get a 3B.
sorry that 2:47 post was interupted… ignore the first part.
I agree the Kubel signing was a good one.
There are so many non-comaparables in a Blake-Kubel salary offer comparison.
Age
arbitration eligible vs Free Agent
Position vs non-position.
Twins surplus in OF-DH vs. a need at 3B.
It’s the best DH we’ll ever have going forward, since we dont like to hit HRs in the first place… all the Kubel haters need to remind themselves of the days of Jason Tyner and Nick Punto DH’ing every other day and be glad we have a shred of sense in signing Kubel until he’s 29 yrs old… he hit a HR every 23.15 ABs while your MVP hopeful hit a HR in every 27 ABs; while having interrupted playing time by Craig Monroe… We are paying Punto more this year, just remember that.
MHF- good point…
the teacher vs. a ballplayer salary argument is a bit convoluted…
if you want real salary arguments try ballplayers vs. actors and teachers vs. social workers
“non-comparables” not whatever-the-hell non-word I accidentally manufactured.
How about rock stars vs hospice volunteers?
Our need at 3B should have little bearing on the discussion of market value of the deal. Ideally it is never a good senerio to overpay at a position even if you have a need.
But I will conceed that the comparison is a little off. That wasnt the original intent- I was mearly saying that those who claim this is a waste of money and are again bellyaching about the Twins FO, need to stay intellectually honest.
No one should be whining about our action here and also about our inaction in regards to Blake on the basis of money.
Interesting… in the current economy we are in, with layoffs and salary cuts.. howcome athletes don’t get their paycut?
in terms of paying for offensive production, Kubel is the best deal we have (excluding players still under team control). He is serviceable in the OF, and probably would be a much better defender if he played RF (much, much smaller) than LF.
I agree thrylos…
scarcity of baseball talent + scarcity of baseball jobs + demand for sports entertainment= huge contracts.
Deal with it.
they paid kubel too much. they paid him too little. they signed him for too many years. they didn’t sign him for enough years. they should have traded him. they should have released him. he can’t run. he can’t hit. he’s got great potential. he has peaked. he sucks. he’s great. anybody is better. nobody is better.
that oughta just about cover it.
There may be a lot of non-comparables between Blake and Kubel, but if you had the dough for one and not the other, the comparison stops, even considering the “need” argument. Kubel’s a deal. Blake’s a mistake, but thankfully not Billy Smith’s mistake.
Actually, if you look at a lot of FA’s (minus who the Yankees signed), they are not getting what they perceived would be “market value” contracts, but much less and a lot remain unsigned altogether… teams are realizing that A) they may not have the revenue stream this year and/or B) that the players in FA are not worth the $$ in the first place. Market dictates price.
Ryan W,
“it is never a good senerio to overpay at a position even if you have a need.”
That was (Blake) and will be (Crede) a heavily debated issue on these blogs.
I understand your point and agree that the Kubel signing should be applauded by any Twins fan with a clue.
mickey mental–
You forgot to rip on LNP.
Morneau, Kubes and DY will lead this team for many years.
mickey,
Also,
1) Is Kubel a first ballot HOF?
and
2) Say WHAT?
The going rate for a win last year on the free agent market was $5million, and it seems to have gone down to about $4.5million this year.
Kubel’s free agent value is $5million, which means the Twins view him as a little more than 1 win above average.
Confused, the player salaries will start to contract more radically once the team income statements take a bigger hit, which won’t really happen until the TV revenue dries up come time for the next contract negotiations, which is pretty soon.
How long have the Twins needed a DH? A long, long time, since Paul Molitor retired. To think that Kubel is probably the best DH we’ve had since the mid-90s (Ortiz before he was good, Buchanan, Lewwwwwwwwww, and- in 2006- Jason Tyner?!?!?!) I think we underpaid. Congratulations, Kubel!
Confused-
Ask Orlando Hudson, Ben Sheets and Manny Rameriz if they are getting a paycut.
heck with cuddy at 3b maybe kubel can play 3b. slow not a very good arm he should fit right in a 3rd.
I think Kubel used to have a pretty good arm… what happened to it?
Kubel actually has an excellent arm, if his knee ever gives him full stability.
He pitched for Highland HS (Ca) and he threw HARD!!
Kubel used to have a pretty good arm… what happened to it?
atrophy from luck of use since 2004
Ryan W,
I usually can’t answer questions before I read them.
I accidentally did it there.
He had 14 assists in 2004 and 15 in 2003. His highest in the majors has been 2, but never played more than 84 games in the OF a season and most of them were at LF, which is the hardest position to get assists in the OF.
sane -
where exactly do you learn about how hard Kubel threw as a pitcher in high school? It’s comments like yours that make me feel very uninformed (or maybe just lazy)!
Kubes gets caught looking too much.
sane- lets test it…
What Marissa Miller’s phone number?
Kubel also has never played MLB outfield on an undamaged pair of knees.
IMO, if his knee ever becomes fully normal, he will be able to light up a radar gun.
Walter Johnson-
It does seem that he gets caught looking a lot. He had a great eye in the minors. I wonder how much of that can be chalked up to the umpires not respecting him? I wonder if a lot of those called 3rd strikes would be balls if someone like Mauer were in the box instead.
MHFESQ- he is a HS coach in California… don’t feel uninformed, just come around more often.
I’m always around, but don’t comment much. guess work is exceptionally boring today.
Kubes gets caught looking too much.
at his age 26 season last year, he had 47 BB and 91 K. David Ortiz at his age 26 season had 43 BB and 87 K. Not too bad a company…
MHFESQ,
I coach a HS team (in CA) that faced Kubel in a playoff game when he was a senior.
Kubel hit an HR in that game that passed Venus last year.
I think Kubel’s knee injuries have changed the type of player he is. I don’t think he will ever put up the average numbers he did as a minor leaguer, but lucky for us he is a good enough hitter to be able to adjust to what his body has given him and he has developed some decent power. The dude can crush a fastball.
I do agree with MHF though, I feel that he watches a lot of strikes and swings at a lot of balls in the dirt. But that is something that a player can improve on…
thrylos98, and the Kubel-Ortiz comparison goes even deeper. BA and HRs were almost identical. This was Ortiz’s last season with the Twins, right?
sane, so the Twins didn’t pick Kubes right up off of some farm in South Dakota?
Ryan W,
If I guess wrong, will you tell me Marissa Miller’s correct phone #?
Bargain for the Twins. Bargain.
Kube’s is a sweet hitter and I am glad we signed him…the only thing that concerns me is that he hits with his eyes closed (look at photo) 
Sane, shoot. This isn’t working as I had hoped…
Ryan W,
Try this number:
(976)…….
Oh hell!
That’s all I know!
WJ,
I ran a comparison of Kubel/Ortiz (and other Twins LH batters) last April here:
http://tenthinningstretch.blogspot.com/2008/04/kubel.html
their numbers were similar at their age 25 season, too. They got even more similar at their age 26 seasons… The only thing is that Ortiz flourished after a.he got to a place that allowed (and encouraged) free swinging and b. got to hit in front of a guy who was pretty scary so he got lots of fastball strikes served at him… Now, even if Kubel swings for the fences, if the batter following him is Buscher/Harris/Punto it will be hard to have a higher average and OBP because he will be getting a lot of breaking stuff away.
Well if Kubel’s putting up similiar numbers to Ortiz when he was a Twin…I’d say why not keep him? Twins made the mistake last time, let’s not do it again.
T,
that’s the point…
One thing I have heard about Kubel is that he has been told to swing for the fences. Yet everyone is convinced that Delmon Young is being forced to swing the other way.
thrylos98,
If Manny made Ortiz into Big Papi, Manny is now available to hit behind Kubel.
It only requires money.
We get to keep all of our players……
Wait a minute!
What were we talking about?
“Yet everyone is convinced that Delmon Young is being forced to swing the other way.”
“Everyone” knows very little about that.
How much extra cash does the winner of the World Series get?
WJ,
In 2008 the winners share was $351K+
The shares come from a “Players Pool” which is comprised of 60% of the 1st 3 games of the Division Series and 1st 4 games of the Championship Series and World Series.
The Players Pool is divided up amongst 12 teams (the 8 playoff teams and 4 non-wild card 2nd place finishers).
So the Twins got almost $512k from the postseason players pool ($11k/share).
The 2008 information can be found here:
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/12/02/sports/BBO-World-Series-Shares-List.php
Thanks. So, actually, Philadelphia’s share was $18.4 million.
Sign. Manny. Now.
test
hell-
o
Twins made a good deal at todays prices.
The Players Pools distribution breaks down as follows:
WS Winners: 36%
WS Losers: 24%
LCS Runner-Ups (2): 12%
LDS Runner-Ups (4): 3%
2nd Place Finishers (4): 1%
So I know Kubes isn’t an everyday player and everything, but they couldn’t find ANY better pictures to use for his ‘big payday’ headline? At least something that doesn’t depict him sleepwalking while wildly flailing his bat around?
Kubes will keep getting better this year and for the next few years. He’s a special kind of hitter who hasn’t really gotten totally comfortable at the major league level because of injuries and competition for playing time. Last year was just a preview of what I expect out of Kubel over the next 2 seasons.
People can gripe about salaries of athletes. Supply and demand, is working though. Folks keep supplying teams with money by over paying going to games, and forced into sweet stadium deals. So shut up, and go back to sorting out your baseball cards in your underoos.
Kubel will become a major force in the Twin’s lineup now that he has the security of the long term contract. He has seemed to be missing some of the confidence he probably had pre-injury. maybe he will relax & let his God given skills flourish. We can hope!
not to get off topic but i think gomez will start the year in AAA. i think span will continue to improve in spring training, and i have a feeling that delmon young is going to destroy the ball, to show gardy he needs to play. remember, this is the first time in his career where he hasn’t been handed playing time. he needs to earn it and i think he’ll respond nicely. plus, if gomez goes down to AAA (which is a good idea from a baseball point of view) for 1 month, his service time will be delayed and his arbitration years won’t start until 2011, rather than 2010 (which makes sense business wise).
Steve,
Gomez has a year and a half experience already so he would need to stay half a year in the minors to delay his arbitration. That said, it is too early to say who should make the team. They need 3 starting outfielder and a back up. The best four out of spring training should make the team.
As far as who needs to destroy the bat to prove himself, that would be Cuddyer who was worse than both Span and Young last season and does not bring the defense and base running of Gomez to the table.
I would love to see Gomez in AAA to start the year. Great raw talent for the guy, but nowhere near ready to be the starting CF for a MLB team. The same was true, but the organization started him anyway, most likely because of his symbolism to the Santana trade, and it very well could’ve cost us a few games.
GREAT SIGNING
They are paying Kubel for his bat - no matter what Gardy or anyone else sayes, he is our everyday DH. Assuming Kubel continues his rise in production and consistancy, his $5 million price tag in 2010 and 2011 are very attractive.
Will anyone else have as productive a DH that makes only $5 million? Doubtful.
Great signing for someone hoping to be a consistant 25HR 85RBI+ hitter.
steve-Gomez is not going to learn how to hit a big league slider by learning to hit a AAA slider.He did improve that skill at the end of last season.We will still have his great glove in center.
steve-Gomez is not going to learn how to hit a big league slider by learning to hit a AAA slider.He did improve that skill at the end of last season.We will still have his great glove in center.
GENO, what do you think would be Gomez’s chances of learning to be patient facing AAA pitching everyday?
Great raw talent for the guy, but nowhere near ready to be the starting CF for a MLB team
Gomez was fourth in the team last year in value wins behind Mauer, Morneau and Span, mainly because of his defense that was gold glove material.
here are the numbers about all the Twins:
http://www.fangraphs.com/winss.aspx?team=Twins&pos=all&stats=bat&qual=0&type=6&season=2008&month=0
What kind of society spends scarce public resources on a stadium for private use and pays men millions of dollars to play a boy’s game, while the national economy disintegrates?
Such a society is unviable, or soon will be.
Span’s numbers slowly and steadily declined after his outrageous first few weeks… why is there reason to believe he’d get better?
Don’t get me wrong, I’d love it if he did, but Span’s my pick to be the most disappointing Twin in 2009. That’s partly because of peoples’ absurd expectations though.
As for the Kubel signing… we’re paying a DH who had an OPS over .800 and led the team in home runs per plate appearance last year how much? $2.75MM?
And people are COMPLAINING?
Fantastic signing by the Twins.
Regardless of Gomez’s frustrations at the plate, I want my everyday outfield to be Span in left, Gomez in center, and Young in right.
If Cudd(yer/aver… take your pick) wants to play, he should be taking ground balls at third base or have a phenomenal Spring Training, because he sure hasn’t earned his spot anytime recently.
Come on Cuddy, it’s not like you could be any worse at third than Buscher… ugh.
Gomez in centerfield means more of the same for him, and that is bad angles on fly balls, completely missing the cutoff man (allowing runners to advance), embarrassing swing-and-misses, and continuous bunting for strike three.
I’d rather have somebody with a more mature head on their shoulders and a better understanding for the game. Give Gomez some learning time and he’ll be the guy in a few years.
dan-The only problem with your argument is that Torri took bad routes and threw to the wrong base when he first came up.It is a matter of maturing.
dan-The only problem with your argument is that Torri took bad routes and threw to the wrong base when he first came up.It is a matter of maturing.
I agree to you, and would settle on that point if overthrowing and missing cutoffs was his only problem. My personal feeling is that this guy does more harm than good to the team and plays for 2 reasons.
1. His appeal is unquestionable, he brings loyalty and remarkable hustle on the field, plus kids love him.
2. Perhaps most important, his sybolism to the Santana trade. If he goes to the minors, the Twins have no major league proof to show they did alright with the Santana trade, and so he continues to struggle in CF in a possible act of defiance on the part of the front office.
Gomez MAY have been the best everyday defensive OF in the game last year. As bad as his hitting was (and it was really, really bad), his D was awesomeness defined. I’m ok with him in CF. The issue on O could be that it is hard to have only D at CF, marginal D and what is either terrible or acceptable O at SS, bad O and bad D at 3B, and bad O and mediocre D in LF. It’s hard to believe that they can replicate that much O from 4 or 5 hitters.
OTOH, maybe Young gets better, Harris plays more at 3B and Punto hits at an ok rate and Gomez shows some growth (while Span and Casilla don’t regress). My concern is that I only think they are set at 1B, C, and DH. Everyone else is an unknown or not good. That’s a lot of dice to have rolling at once for a team with this much pitching.
I don’t see the point in giving large multi-year contracts to marginal players (Kubel, Cuddyer, Lamb, etc.).
Kubel could easily be replaced by a much cheaper and much better player.
Dan, yes, taht was a terrible trade so far. 1 great defensive player with no bat and three minor leaguers for one of the 5 best SP in the world. At this point, no other player from that deal is projected to contribute at this point. If he does, it is due to injury or bad play by one of the existing MLB players. That’s two years of Santana for 1 CF that can’t hit, but is a great fielder. Yuck so far.
He’s got great range and agreat arm, but to be the best everyday OF you need to hit the cutoff man and throw to the right bases. Too often, a runner would advance from first to second because Gomez would launch his cannon arm as hard as he could, and instead of the cutoff getting it just behind the pitcher’s mound, we see Mauer sidestepping up the baseline to grab a horrible throw. Stuff like that cost us games last year.
Plus, I would sacrifice a little of his defensive abilities if we could get more quality offense out of the guy.
I’m not anti-Gomez, but I would like to see him mature and develop more this year before thrusting him into a starting role again.
Dan & Mike,
Interesting comments. I often wonder what game folks are watching. That’s not a insult or sarcasm, just wonderment.
I am always amazed how a number of individuals can observe the same event(s) and see it differently, even completely opposite.
I guess the theory that each sees what confirms their preconcieved notions is probably correct.
Regards,
The Twins have too many DH types. Delmon, Cuddyer, Kubel, Buscher, Harris.
None of those guys can adequately defend a position. One or two players like that on a team are okay. Five is too many.
If I had to choose two, I would take Delmon and Buscher. Delmon to DH. Buscher off the bench.
I really do believe that Gomez plays simply because it’s facetime to prove something on the trade.
Having said that, I really don’t fault the Twins FO for the Santana trade. I’m not very happy with them in the past 15 years for sitting on their hands when we needed them the most, but they weren’t in an enviable position with the Santana trade. The guy himself put the team in a bad position (selfishly), and they had to trade him to avoid letting the game’s best pitcher walk for free. While the Yankees and Sox offered possibly better players, I consider it a small victory to have him traded to the National League, where he can’t hurt us very much.
Is anyone tee’d off at professional sports. We fund stadiums with tax payers money - 100’s of millions of dollars. The athletes get outrageous salaries. The owners make millions of dollars. Our State cuts the budget, people are getting laid off everywhere, important services get cut back. Where are our values and priorities? This is insane.
Nick-
I noticed your post before, and I see you’ve posted it again since no one took the bait the last time.
That said, I agree wholeheartedly with you. It’s all sad and pathetic. Seeing a rich guy like Carl Pohlad convice the state to help fund his stadium is rediculous.
My feeling is that it’s only going to get worse. The only way for things to stop is for the fans to stop buying tickets and merchandise. That will never happen. However, the current economy may slow things down, and I hope to God that it does so that owners and players realize how good they have it and stop clomplaining about “only” getting $5 million when they could be getting $8 million.
I’d take either.
“I’d take either”…
I bet you would Dan - if you had an ounce of talent that would make that a viable option for you.
I was disappointed in Gomez last season too, but I did see a stat that he hit .296 with RISP.
Kubel and Cuddyer are career .268 hitters. Neither are good fielders. I don’t see the point in signing players like that long term, or in paying them much.
No-hit no-field players are a dime a dozen. Teams can pick up players like Kubel and Cuddyer for free off the player scrap heap.
Good one, lucky, you’re a funny guy.
Kubel and Cuddyer are white guys. That’s important to the Twins and their racist fans.
TL Craig - Cuddyer is an above average right fielder. He’s got a gun for an arm. Kubel was the top minor league prospect before his near career ending knee surgery and last year showed what he could do with regular playing time. You don’t know what the hell you’re talking about.
Ooooh… and TL Craig plays the race card! Proving what a flippin’ moron he is1
Yeah, the Twins find guys who hit 20+ HRs all the time. Especially with 160 fewer ABs than Morneau. Cuddyer shouldn’t be here. Kubel is good. Kubel is consistent and good when they get rid of the hack they signed to split time with him. Post allstar break, aka finally letting Kubel play, he hit .303 in 2007 and .286 in 2008.
lucky,
Cuddyer has no range. He gets an awful jump on the ball. Kubel can’t do much. He is okay against RHP. That’s it. Both are marginal players. Not awful, but there are better hispanic and black players looking for work.
We hated Rod Carew, Tony Oliva, Kirby Puckett, Larry Hisle, Lymon Bostock, Bombo Rivera, Danny Ford, Al Newman, Tori hunter, Jacque Jones, etc… we are such rotten racist fans. Where’s my white robe?
TLC - You are too stupid to argue with.
Lucky you’re not much better
You’re right Dan, I’m not much better than some guy who labeled all Twins fans racist.
Multi-year Contracts
Current players that the Twins signed to multi-year contracts, and that they are currently paying:
In millions:
80 Morneau
47 Nathan
33 Mauer
24 Cuddyer
8.5 Punto
7 Kubel
6.6 Lamb
3.25 Crain
2 Redmond
Here’s the final score Twins fans:
White Players: 211.35 million
Black and Hispanic players: 0
Just the way you like it.
Justin Morneau is Canadian, so we our biggest contract goes to an “international” player.
Gomez does not belong in AAA.
Last year was essentially his rookie year.
I’m willing to forgive him for missing a cutoff man once in a while for all the intangibles he brings this team.
And lest you forget that he was one of he better Twins hitters the last month of the season.
How many games did he save with spectacular catches in the 9th inning of games last year?? About 5 or 6 by my count. He took pretty nasty angles on those fly balls.
Dan does have a point. Plus, before this year, who had a few of our biggest contracts? Santana and Hunter.
Terry Ryan signed plenty of black and hispanic players to multi-year contracts. That’s all over with now.
Thanks for the backup pudice. My comments, and I’m sure yours as well, were mostly sarcastic, as I don’t believe for one second the organization is racist, I was just having fun with the comments.
It is a step in the right civil rights direction to spend big money on a foreigner like Justin Morneau.
TLC, just so you know, first base coach Jerry White isn’t the race that his last name implies….just sayin….
what a little twit…
Morneau is an international player. Punto is Italian. Liriano will at some point get a big deal I’m sure. I would like to hear him come up with a better option than Mauer to spend our money on for catcher.
I have seen some dumb posts in my day but TL Craig takes the cake with pulling out the race card. Unfortunately minorities playing baseball is going down. But in the Twins case you have 4 up and coming players in Casilla, Gomez, Span and DY. All of which I hope get extensions and should if they continue on the path of play they showed last year. As for offseason moves name a good minority player the Twins could have signed this year to help the team? Only one that comes to mind is O. Hudson to play 2B and moving Casilla to SS. Trading for Beltre would have been another possible move. Other then that there was Blake, Crede, Dunn, Aitkins, Kouzmanoff,..etc..Instead of always falling back on the race card do some research.
There are several that will get deals if they keep producing. They are all very new. Mijares, Casilla, Span, Young, Gomez, Liriano.
Punto is Italian
Punto’s grandparents are Italian… He is a third generation Italian. He is less Italian than Gardenhire is German.
Pudice..nice catch with Mijares and Liriano. I can’t believe I left off the Franchise.
TL Craig is not really a racist,he hates everybody equally!
A few days ago TL Craig posted about how Obama was really born in Kenya and grew up in Kenya and therefore shouldn’t be President.
gotta love those totally made up farce stories. Whether you like the guy or not, look at the reality-He was a state senator, then a U.S. senator, and now president. Something tells me he’s got citizenship and was born here.
TLC is a person of color.
The color of puke.
Duchscherer is from north dakota
“What kind of society spends scarce public resources on a stadium for private use and pays men millions of dollars to play a boy’s game, while the national economy disintegrates?
Such a society is unviable, or soon will be.”
Michael, I am absolutely opposed to public funding for pro sports stadiums, but it is certainly nothing new in our society. We the people elect the politicians that spend our money and many of them seem to like building stadiums.
Players getting paid millions of dollars to play a boys game is based on their rare talent and a market that is willing to pay to see them display it (even though it is partially subsidized by tax funded stadiums). Are you equally dismayed with actors or musicians that get paid millions of dollars to display their talent? It’s entertainment, and we can all choose who and where we spend our entertainment dollar.
Dragon, what do you see differently? I don’t catch your gist? That Gomez was a great defender, but a bad hitter? that it is hard to have a great offense (consistently) with 3B, SS, LF and CF with OPS well below the league average for those positions? I’m not sure what you were referring to there.
As for stadiums, I think we should tax the subsidy being supplied as income going forward. The owners and players have plenty of money, and the subsidy has not resulted in declining or even stable ticket prices.
I love the Twins!
I don’t know why people have to keep learning the same lesson over, and over, and over again.
(The orignal) Craig, (The new and improved) Craig, and TL Craig is a troll who posts only for the sake of laughing at the response he can generate.
Ignore him, and he’ll eventually go away. (Or step over some line and get banned, which has happened at least once already).
Feed him, and he’ll continue to garbage-up the blog.
I agree that the idea of Cuddy at third makes sense.
TLC is really Jesse Jackson
I mean Reggie Jackson
I have insomnia, so I decided to check out what was happening on the blog. Good signing by the Twins. Kubel is an asset, particularly at this price. Everyone please take Chief’s advice (I’ve said it mayself before) and do not respond to Craig at all. It only engenders a response from Craig which no one wants.
boneyard-Craig is going to post,whether we feed him or not.Might as well try to hold him accountable at some level!
So explain to me how this would work in logical-land. I know the Twins live in illogical-land, but humor me. Nick Punto gets $4 million dollars/year. Kubel gets a little over half that. Kubel is worse than Punto? I guess that’s what the Twins think.
Also, totally get where you’re coming from Nick. I’m glad I could help.
GENO, not if we don’t address he who shall not be addressed in any manor. He’ll eventually fade.
That MLB owners are able to fleece the public in order to build their private stadiums, and that players are able to earn millions of dollars doesn’t mean it’s good for our society. Especially now that our national economy is disintegrating.
Do you think it’s good that so many bank executives were paid extravagantly for their “talent”, and now we taxpayers are stuck with the bailout tab?
Regardless of the perverse and destructive nature of our nation’s economic arrangements, I LOVE THE TWINS!
I can’t help it. Since I was a boy and my grandfather and I would listen to games on WCCO, the Twins have been an important part of the rhythms and fabric of my life.
And I think Carlos Gomez is an electrifying player. When he steps onto the field, there is instant excitement. He’s a hyper-talented man-child who seems to expand the possibilities of the game.
I hope he can steady his game enough to become an All Star.
I meet Kubel last night in Pierre. He was very hopefull for the results so he could say “YES, it is a done deal!”
What a gentleman and the Twins need to continue the Winter Caravan. You should see the kids, of all ages, and the excitement that it brings to them to see Tony Oliva, Kubel and Denard Span in their hometown. Good job Twins!!!
Well everyone seems find with the new contract that Kubel will get once he passes his physical. Now that he has a contract he likes, perhaps next season he can find his way to hit 25 homers and a few clutch hits with baserunners on and with alot less strikeouts……
Regarding Public Financing.
While I don’t like Public Financing it is a way of life, not just for sports venues but for most businesses.
Over 90% of all professional sports venues where publicly financed.
Also, many business are given tax subsidies or tax breaks in order to get them to set up shop in their area. Best Buy was given a huge incentive to move it’s headquarters to Richfield. Cabela’s was given tax breaks to open a new location in Rogers. It’s all a matter of weighing the benefit of having the business vs. the cost of getting/keeping it there.
Minneapolis, Hennepin County, Minnesota will receive more money over 30 years than the $3-400M they are paying for it.
The All-Star Game that will be at Target Field will probably pay for 1/10 of the stadium and that is just 1 event.
Let’s talk strategy. Baseball is a team game. In baseball, basketball, football, futbal, ice hockey, whatever, the more people play together the better they play together so long as they are trying to do so, are well coached, and have a common goal. Twins have best young rotation in majors, top-three closer, strong young outfield with an extra plus Kubel option, MVP quality 1st base, best catcher in majors, outstanding manager, best pitching coach in majors. They’re a bit short on power but score tons of runs and absolutely wear out opposing pitchers. Casilla is a killer talent on O and D. If you don’t love watching Punto play you think Pete Rose doesn’t belong in Hall of Fame because he played too intense.
Last year everybody thought Indians were gonna dominate the division because of all the free-agent signings they made. What happened? Sank so low they traded Sabathia in middle of season.
IF it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. Twins will be better team precisely because they have the same team, now seasoned by a year of playing together as a team. With so much young talent, long term strategy is to sign players they have to long term contracts, starting with Mauer, Liriano, and Baker.
Come on, dare ya, tell me why I’m wrong.
You are wrong because we hit .305 with RISP. That will never happen again. Buscher had a ridiculous RBI to hit ratio. The second best team with RISP had .287 and it went down from there. A lot went right for us last year. Although things went wrong too with Neshek and then Guerrier sucking, but I’m not sure this offense can produce that kind of production again. Believe me, I hope I am way wrong.
A reduction in BA w/ RISP can be compensated for in a million ways.
Here are a few:
1) Improved pitching,
2) Improved fielding,
3) Improved baserunning,
4) Improved OBP,
5) Advancing MORE runners INTO scoring position,
6) Advancing MORE runners DEEPER into scoring position with 0-1 outs so they can be driven in WITHOUT a hit.
7) More power driving in runners from first base.
More HR’s.
Omigosh. Punto and Pete Rose in the same sentence. The problem is, one had talent and one doesn’t. And of course, because the club won 88 games in what turned out to be a weak division, there are no areas that need improvement. None. That’s like MJ after his first MVP saying, “You know, I don’t need to work on my game anymore.”
True, sane, but what has the club done to improve in those areas, particularly with #4 and #7 which are likely to have the biggest impact?
[…] Twins avoided arbitration with Jason Kubel yesterday, signing him to a two year contract that the Star-Tribune claims is for about $7 million and contains a team option for 2011 that is worth $5 million. So, […]
Boneyard,
Improvement in OBP and power can (should?)occur when 22-25 year-old hitters learn from experience how pitchers are attacking them and how to anticipate what and where the next pitch will be thrown.
Power improvement also comes when 22-yr-old hitters’ bodies mature; and when they use weight (and quick twitch) training to improve explosive strength and power.
Good deal I like Kubel and i hope he keeps improving and stays healthy. Has anyone heard anything more about Matty G’s arbitration?
Sane, other than Young (who Gardy doesn’t seem inclined to paly full time) and Morneau (I think he’ll get back up over 30), who do you see as a candidate for appreciable improvement in the power dept?
Btw, I’m not sure I agree witht he FanGraphs article. Kubel is what Kubel is, but I think he’s worth the money the club ponied up.
Boneyard I think Gomez has the potential to be a 20-30 HR guy. I think Mauer could be as well but i’m sure his batting average would drop about 30 points.
BC, Gomez might have that potential, he might not. If he does, I just don’t see him doing it in ‘09.
No i dont see it in 09 either i’m sure the Twins coaching staff just want him to get on base more then anything else.
Boneyard,
I think that BC and you have selected the most likely candidates for a 2009 power surge - Young, Gomez, Morneau and Mauer.
Others could be Span and Casilla possibly becoming 10 HR guys for the reasons I outlined in my 9:38 AM post.
When they guessed correctly on inside pitches last year, they were able to drive the ball pretty well.
For other reasons, I think that Kubel, Harris and Buscher also have more power potential than they showed last year - especially Harris.
“Buscher had a ridiculous RBI to hit ratio”
Yea, we better get rid of him. Hate to have guys hitting well in the clutch. Better get a guy who will bat .200 with RISP but will get 15 more homers.
I think Morneau led the league with RISP and he hit about .350 in that situation. I think he has a pretty good history of producing. Does anyone know his year by year stats with RISP? If your .300 hitters are the ones that come up with more RISP then it is more likely that you will get good results. Maybe our average with RISP will go down but with Casilla, and Span for a full season along with a leaner, stronger Young maybe there will be more opportunities.
Fact is, I would agree with more of you about not being able to improve much if our guys were 30 years old. Last year was considered a rebuilding year and almost all of our guys are mid or low 20’s. You don’t go 15 games over .500 in a rebuilding year and say “it’s not working, we need change”
sane, I agree the potential fir most of the additional guys you listed is there, particularly with Harris and Buscher, I just don’t know where the AB are going to come from (I think Buscher will probably play himself out of the platoon with his poor D) for them to realize significant improvement in the power dept wheich will translate into success for the club.
Sane, I agree with you although I would put my money on Casilla vs Span. Span is kind of like Punto in that I cringe a little when he hits a homer cuz that is not what I want them trying for and is not their most effective swing. Casilla, even though he is pretty small just seems to have a lot of pop in his natural swing.
I was shocked last year that it took til June for Mauer to hit a homer cuz it really looked like he was letting it rip when the count was heavily in his favor, but he just kept fouling them off. I do think he has some power potential but don’t want him changing his swing much.
Des, there’s a difference between saying, “There are areas we need to improve in” and saying, “This isn’t working.” I don’t understand what’s wrong with trying to get better, even if you were pretty good the season before.
There are no guarantees of anything, BUT
How many veteran MLB hitters ever say that they are WORSE hitters NOW, than they were when they were younger?
How many veteran MLB hitters ever say that they were a better hitter when they were 22-23-24 years-old?
ANYONE?
That’s why it is (at least) likely that the Twins young hitters will improve.
sane, I think they’l improve as a group, although some guys come up and do well for a season or two and then, not much. Like Marty Cordova. Mientkiewicz had his best year in ‘01. It happens. Or they don’t become veterans because they don’t last. I just don’t see this cast of characters hitting 30 more HR than they did last year. Something in 15 - 20 HR range, maybe. I do hope, though. I’d love it if Harris hit 15 and Kubel hit 30 and DY hit 20 and Punto hit 3.
this has been a dismal off season for the twins and as much as i want to be excited for this season, it actually has me much more worried and concerned, even more so than last year…the twins finished one game out with decent pitching and unbelievable timely hitting, with an emphasis on timely….this season i dont see lightning striking again, as i see the pitching probably will improve with the experience, but this lineup is really only set in maybe 3 positions and thats morneau will play 1b, span will leadoff and play of somewhere, and mauer will catch….beyond that its all up in the air, as if casilla reverts back to old ways, punto, is he going to hit .230 or .280, we all know the mess at 3rd, and in the outfield whos next cuddy, and how much does he have left or gomez, is he truly ready or is AAA the place for him..and it scares the hell out of me to see this team continue to lack any power as it did last year. this front office needs to, if nothing else provide this lineup with some punch, because as much as i pull for all these guys, im not sure they all have it in them to repeat last years performance, as that would be asking alot. again we have a chance to add a wiggy or crede to help without dismantling any personnel. im not asking to add ramirez or a-rod but at least get someone who has in the past hit at least 20-25 hr a year and lets hope all the youngsters can find a way to come close to last years production. if they do and the twins add a little more punch and improved pitching, this team will be playing in october, its that simple.
now its up to you mr smith and time is starting to run short- 17 days til spring training…….good luck twins.
I cannot take anything in a post seriously that compares Punto to Rose.
Boneyard,
That’s true.
Nobody asks the ex-player (who is now bagging groceries), whether he is a better hitter now, or than when he was 22.
sane, so you believe KC will also improve?
As for BA with RISP, it is not sustainable to hit better with RISP over the long run. It is not likely that Justin will hit 30-40 points higher with RISP than otherwise (and it’s actually a bigger range than that, if you pull out the .350 with RISP from his yearly numbers).
mike,
The comparison was “intensity” only.
That’s like comparing Einstein to me in handwriting clarity.
Yes.
I believe that KC’s young players will also improve.
However KC had a larger FA turnover (in and out) than the Twins.
They also have a higher hill to climb.
Intensity w/o skill and common sense and ability isn’t all that important. Punto has about one tenth of each of those that Rose had.
It’s interesting to me the ebb and flow of the conversation.
Player “X” did well last year, so he CAN’T do it again, BUT FA “Z” has done well in the past, so sign him and he will improve.
I am happy that Bill Smith HAS NOT tried to screw-up what MIGHT be the growth of a solid core for this team.
There are just too many players for whom 2008 was their 1st time for extended ML play:
Span
Casilla
Buscher
Gomez
Blackburn
Slowey
Perkins
Liriano
Add Young & Harris to that group and that is a whole lot of potential holes, OR maybe a couple or more proven additions to a reliable core (M & M and Nathan).
Which, if any of that bunch will be keepers.
We have Morneau for 5 more years, Mauer I expect will be extended to at least that time frame. The young pups, will be relatively cheap, even if ALL become keepers, to allow a 4-5 year run, even on a budget.
Let them play so we can find out, OR pick a couple names out of the hat and kick the ball down the field.
IMHO, this is the 1st time I can remember that the Twins have a 2nd crop of youngsters, following the first group so closely in time. The problem with Hunter and Santana was that Hunter was already on the downward slope, Santana was at the peak, with M & M not quite to the peak.
IF you’re not willing to play the youth, why have them?
Regards,
Would I like to have Soria, DeJesus, Avilles and Greinke?
You betcha!
all teams in our division will have improved, count on it-all the more reason the twins need to make some moves and hope they all work out…cant expect last years results to be good enought this year..that would be a major disappointment probably by july
mike,
If I gave ANY indication that I put Punto and Rose at the same level in ANY baseball-related characteristic, it was inadvertant and I take it all back.
mj1,
Last year’s players don’t assure last year’s results.
New players don’t assure better results.
I don’t think you did, I think the other poster did.
Dragon, I’m not arguing that Morneau can’t be good because he was, just that expecting his BA with RISP to be .350 is a large expectation - that’s not his career mark, is it? Expecting Morneau to recreate what he’s done over the last three-four years makes sense, though. Just as one good year from a FA is a red flag. Expecting Beltre to hit like he has over the last 3-5 years makes sense, doesn’t it?
I 100% agree with your last paragraph, if this group can grow. The lack of consistent youth coming in has been an issue - the waves have been too far apart in the past.
sane, BC, I agree on Young and Gomez for power surges and I am going to add Cuddyer to that list. I think we will see at least 15 home runs from Cuddyer this season barring injury.
Mike,
Partially to your question of what game are we watching.
IMHO, there are ONLY 2 players on the Twins which can spark the team, EVEN when they screw-up. Last year was the 1st year that I watched 140+ games.
I suspect they are also the 2 most emotional players. Gomez & Punto. Most of the Twins will jump on the emotional bandwagon, but the others seldom start it.
Last year there were probably 15-20 times when the offense was lethargic, Gomez or Punto would do something, and I would comment, “It’s going to happen”, generally I was correct. As the season went on “She who Bosses us All”, began to ask…who was it, Gomez or Punto? And what stupid thing did they do?
Regards,
I believe that one reason the Twins have not thrown a lot of money at a top 3b is due to the fact they have a lot of quality young talent. A lot of the young talent will be eligible for arbitration next year and if they put a lot of money or years into one player they might end up losing some of the young talent Scott Baker for example.
How about this? By design, most teams have runners on base for their RBI guys. Most 3rd and 4th hitters have a lot of power and decent but not great averages so team ave with runners on base is relaively close to their overall ave. The Twins have the best average hitter in the league and another top 10 in those positions and by far the 2 best hitters on the team so we have .300 and .330 hitters with the most opportunities to hit with runners on. Therefore, our team ave. with runners on is greater than our overall team ave. Also, some players do adjust their approach based on situations. Morneau may not always bat better with RISP by 50 points but I think he always does better. (someone please verify)
That all said. I agree that the ave with RISP may not be sustainable but with hopefully a little more power from our current guys as discussed and with more talented guys for the entire season our opportunities should increase. Hopefully a better rotation the whole season along with guys like Mijares and our runs given up should be better also.
One other point. Does everyone realize that the 87 team gave up more runs than they scored? Just like it is not always who you play but when and where, the same is true for run scoring. If we get shut out in a blow out but win a lot of close games it makes a world of difference.
BC, I don’t think signing Wiggington or Crede or trading for Kouzmanoff would jeopardize the club retaining Baker or Slowey. I just think the club doesn’t like spending more than $5 million in a year or going more than 2 years for someone who didn’t come up through the system.
Des,
A point on the when & where of scoring. Take the Detriot series where we got slammed like 19-6 or some such. From memory, EACH team scored 30/31 runs in the 4 game series. Twins won 3 and lost the disaster.
Regards,
All you kubel haters, remember a guy named David Ortiz. He had the same numbers. Now at least Kubes is not going to walk and become a 40 and 100 guy for someone else right away.
Neyer just posted that it was a bad signing. Interesting.
I think any one of you guys/girls would make a GREAT GM! (:(:
