Boras: Crede is healthy and ready for spring training
Posted on February 5th, 2009 – 4:41 PMBy Joe Christensen
As La Velle noted, the Twins signed Matt Guerrier to a one-year, $1.475 million deal today, clearing their plate of their final pending arbitration case.
Meanwhile, I spoke to Joe Crede’s agent, Scott Boras. It sounds like the free agent third baseman is ready to sign somewhere, even if the Twins appear to be dragging their feet.
The reports I’d been getting had Crede at 75 percent, coming off his second back surgery in two years.
“Joe Crede has been cleared to play and is ready to compete every day, as any other player would be going to camp,” Boras said. ”And he’ll be doing so in about 10-14 days.”
The implication was clear: Crede wants his deal signed in the next week and intends to be full-go when major league position players report to spring training. The Giants and Twins are among the teams interested.
Crede, 30, is believed to be seeking a one-year deal with a base salary of at least $5.1 million — the amount he made last year — with incentives that will pay him as an All-Star third baseman if he stays on the field.
The Twins have been hesitant to commit that much guaranteed money to Crede until they know he’s healthy. Also, there’s the concern that he’d be able to stay healthy while playing on the Metrodome’s artificial surface.
“Joe Crede is healthy,” Boras said. ”The playing surface he plays on is not an issue.”
235 Responses to "Boras: Crede is healthy and ready for spring training"
“The playing surface he plays on is not an issue,” said Boras, who then went on to say “And I have some seashore properties in Arizona you may be interested in.”
Get it Done Billy!
imo the back is enough an excuse for smith not to sign him and save the money in the pohlad family trust fund.
times are tuff for billionaires to!
If Twins’ only concern is health, and Crede is confident that he’s healthy, why don’t they reach some sort of agreement that has less guaranteed money but but higher incentives?
Win-Win-Win.
Why would Boras lie about that?
Boras is nervous. He is spinning like crazy on a bunch of his clients, including Manny Ramirez. I think that if teams thought Crede was 100% healthy, someone would have signed him by now. I bet that an identical conversation shows up in a San Francisco blog.
I don’t trust Boras any further than I can throw him… he’s one of those guys that I’d probably need to take a shower after even talking to he’s so shady. With that… Mr. No has to make an offer here. We’ve got “flexible finances” he claimed months ago… prove it. Crede’s worth the risk for one year in my opinion.
The Twins would be better off ponying up for Adam Dunn, but of course that’s not happening. Crede is a total crapshoot w/his health….I think the Twins would be better off signing a pitcher w/the money.
Joe Crede’s contract:
130+ games League minimum
110-130 games $1.5 mil
90-110 games $2.5 mil
70-90 games $4.5 mil
50-70 games $6.5 mil
1-50 games $ 8.5 mil
0 games $ 11 mil
Regards,
“Joe Crede is healthy,” Boras said. ”The playing surface he plays on is not an issue.”
Again, let’s remember the source…
Dragon,
Is that reversed?
If he plays 0 games he makes the max?
If he plays 130+, he makes MLB minimum?
I’m all for signing Crede, having Harris as a utility guy with some pop, and getting whatever the Twins can get for Buscher in a trade.
I just a question, if the Twins sign Crede and then it is proven his back is not healthy/cannot handle the turf, does every poster on here promise to publicly admit that Smith took a chance and stay off his back if the money ends up being wasted?
It’s a bad investment, and I think Smith knows it. I know a lot of people think highly of him, trustworthy people like Boras and Hawk included, but “suck em up Joe” would be yet another power vacuum at 3rd base.
Too much guaranteed money he does not deserve. Incentive driven contract sounds better. Earn your money or play somewhere else. Twins…Do not sign this bench warmer because that is what he will be as soon as his back gives out.
ok how about this Twins Orlando Hudson to play 2base i dont understand why nobody has signed him yet they move Casilla to ss and have Punto ,Buscher ,and Harris compete for 3rdbase i know we wont sign Hudson and i do think Twins will sign Crede
Let’s look at the potential downside here:
Crede signs for $5M bucks.
Doesn’t play a game for the Twins.
The Pohlad boys are out $5M bucks that they’ll just use to pay down their “stadium contribution” otherwise.
Harris/Buscher platoon plays third for the Twins.
What was the downside again?
I think we should trade Span and Perkins/Blackburn and some minor league prospects for Beltre/Morrow and then sign Dunn to share time with Young in left field. That or get Dan Uggla for third in a DY+ minor leaguers swap.
Some of you are just way too jaded. I mean… to honestly question the integrity and word of Scott Boras? The man is clearly only trying to help the Twins out by guiding his AllStar 3B client toward the Twin Cities. And all you can do is question his integrity?
Y’all should be ashamed.
What sort of motive would he possibly have to pass along untrue information to a member of the media?
That’s a good one, zwiefz. It’ll be like the Lamb deal, where if it bombs, some people will conveniently toss their Pecota aside and rip that idiot GM a new one.
We need a chiropractor or a physical therapist, someone trained in sports medicine:
Does the surface on which Joe Crede plays matter?
Is this really the sticking point?
Pretty sure Boras is not a doctor, and has the same information available to him as the people scouting him. Did he have $$ signs in his eyes when he said he was healthy? The guy is a born liar but probably believes everything that comes out of his own mouth. That said, the Twins saved enough being under budget last year, have enough to spend under their budget for this year, and have wasted a lot more money than this on journeyman over the past 5 years that signing Crede, back problems or not, is not that big of a risk. Get it done. If it pans out we have a third baseman with HUGE upside. If not, it’s no worse than the money spent on Batista, Livan, Lamb, Everett, Ortiz, Rondell, Monroe, Cirillo, Boone, Ponson, Sierra, Punto or Cuddyer…just to name a few.
May I check in here?
Boras actually has some history on his side.
There were concerns about Pudge Rodriguez’s health before Boras got him signed with Detroit in 2004. Pudge hit .334 with 19 homers and 86 RBI that season.
We all scoffed a year later when Boras claimed that Magglio Ordonez’s knee was healthy before he signed with the Tigers. Ordonez missed time because of a sports hernia, but the knee was fine. He hit .302 in 82 games that season and was a force after that.
Boras proclaimed Kevin Millwood’s back to be healthy before his client signed with Cleveland in 2005. Milwood went 9-11 but his 2.86 ERA rocked.
There may be other cases of Boras clients breaking down and staying down. But here are three that have worked out.
No one has brought this up, but if Crede’s health turns out to be bad, wouldn’t Gardy enjoy having three guys to platoon at third base instead of just two?
people should get off of smith last year he was the toast of the blog when he traded for D-young he tried to make moves so far that one hasn’t panned out, but to say he hasn’t tried in his two years is ludicrous
Chief, the only “downside” (and I’m not sure it’s much of one) is that if you sign Crede, the next move might be to deal Harris or Buscher. Then if/when Crede gets hurt, you don’t have that platoon to fall back on.
Now… whether that’s enough of a downside to hesitate or not is certainly questionable. I would think he’s worth taking some risk… and I also suspect that whoever signs him will get him for a bit less than the $5.1mm in guarantees, but perhaps with a bit extra in incentives.
So just to make it clear La Velle has Crede down for .285 32hrs 105rbis based on Boras’s track record of saying guys are healthy 
Boras is nothing more than a snake oil salesman who is trying to max out his take.
LaVelle-
Are you just sticking up for Boras because he slipped the Strib some information? Maybe we’re all wrong and he’s not that bad of a guy, but he is definitely all about the money. Has he ever let one of his players take a “hometown discount”? Has he ever negotiated an extension in the last year of a players deal? Maybe so, but I’m guessing they are few and far between.
5 Mil base spent on Crede to sit on the bench and earn no incentives, is still a better investment than 5 Mil spent on Livan last year.
Of course Boras is going to say Crede is ready to go.But dollars to doughnuts the “report” about him only being 75% healthy is coming from the Twins (through the Strib) either trying to lower the price tag or have a ready made excuse for not signing him.
It goes both ways.If Smith doesn’t think he is worth the risk he should just say so publically.Just like he publically came out and said at the winter meetings that the Twins needed to upgrade the bullpen and thirdbase.
“5 Mil base spent on Crede to sit on the bench and earn no incentives, is still a better investment than 5 Mil spent on Livan last year.”
If that is the best that can be said about that Crede deal, then it should (and will) be rejected by the Twins.
As a reminder, the Twins paid Cuddaver $5 M for that disaster of a year last year. I am not sure whether Crede will be such a huge upgrade, but if he gets Buscher’s glove out of the roster, it will be an upgrade by itself.
I’m no fan of Boras, but let’s be clear here… it’s not Boras who doesn’t “allow” his clients to sign early extensions or take home-town discounts. He provides advice and he negotiates the best deal he can for his clients. The players who hire him know what his MO is and that’s what they sign on for.
As for the misinformation (ok, let’s call them what they are… lies) he passes on to the media, that’s all part of the game, boys and girls. If he can convince the Giants they need to step up their offer because the Twins have the inside track to sign Crede, then that’s what he’s going to do. If the Giants can’t see through the smoke, that’s their problem. Doesn’t hurt to try, if you’re Boras.
Oh… and if you think any comments from Twins FO types about Crede only looking like he’s “75%” is anything more than the club playing just as loose with the facts in order to help their own negotiating position, you’re kidding yourself.
If Crede plays 130-140 games, it will be a definite upgrade both offensively and defensively. Unfortunately, that’s the question mark.
Crikket
Exactly.The difference is Boras is the one one going on the record as saying his client is healthy.If the 75% “report” is coming from the Twins, they aren’t being as straight forword IMO.
Like I said in my previous post,if the Twins would just come out and say “we don’t think he is healthy” I as a fan, could live with that.They are more worried about the PR hit of not doing ANYTHING to improve the ball club this off season.
Don’t worry we will pass on him and he will have a great year for another team and we will miss the playoffs…
I think this comes down to the Twins FO trying to get the Mariners to ship us Beltre now instead of July. That’s why they’re placing Crede in the cart and taking a looooong time to get to the registers. As for the Mariners, they’re really holding nothing. They’re not going to get anything of equal value in exchange for Beltre. What they should do is look at something in exchange that will be of value in years to come, i.e, pitching prospects with high upside. They’re not even going to win Seattle State Fair this year, much less their own division.
Beltre is a pipe dream.
It won’t take 5 million to get Crede. I think it’s worth the risk.
Here is the “worse” case scenario with a Crede signing:
* Twins sign Crede
* Crede has a good spring and the Twins get rid of Buscher
* Crede gets hurt and is out for the season the first couple weeks
* The Twins continue the season with Harris as their starting 3B, relieved by Tolbert or one of Tolleson/Hughes/Macri when necessary
If the Twins do not sign Crede:
* The Twins start with a platoon at 3B: Buscher against LHP, Harris against RHP
* This means (using the proportion of LHP and RHP the Twins faced last year) that Buscher will be the starting 3B about 70% of the time.
Which is worse? Standing with the platoon or the “worse” case scenario of a Crede singing?
Take the risk Bill! Crede is a lot more proven than Batista was or Lamb last year… Batista was coming from Japan and Lamb was never a starting 3rd basemen before coming here… Give the man incentives with a base of 1 yr 5 mil!
In other news…
FOXBOROUGH, Mass. (AP) — The New England Patriots placed the franchise tag on Matt Cassel on Thursday.
The move means the quarterback remains a free agent, but the Patriots can match any offer made by another team or allow him to sign with that team in exchange for two first-round draft picks.
If and when he signs the one-year franchise tag designation, worth $14.65 million for 2009, he will be under contract to the Patriots, who could keep him or trade him.
Cassel’s stock soared last season after he took over for Tom Brady, who suffered a season-ending knee injury in the opening game. Cassel helped the Patriots to an 11-5 record, but they missed the playoffs.
Do the Vikes go after him?
To answer a question asked in here, if Crede’s back flares up, the same people who were calling Smith a coward for not signing him yet will be among the first to rip him for signing him.
Chief, the only “downside” (and I’m not sure it’s much of one) is that if you sign Crede, the next move might be to deal Harris or Buscher
actually, anything that gets Buscher off the team will be an “upside” any way you cut it. Worse comes to worse, Harris will be the starting third baseman, which is better than the platoon. The thing with Gardy is that some times Smith has to force his hand, because Gardy manages like he does (Juannie sucks, Juannie in again, Juannie sucks again, oops Juannie is cut so let’s try Bassie; Bassie sucks, Bassie in again, etc…)
Worth the risk…If Crede does break down at some point, and assuming they somehow get rid of Buscher or Harris, you can then fall back on a platoon involving Tolbert.
And frankly, I don’t see much of a dropoff with Tolbert involved (including defense) in a platoon in comparision to the current Buscher/Harris one.
IMO the Twins want to appear as though they were committed to trying to improve the club via the free agent market.Blake,Gagne,now Crede.But what they are really committed to is not spending much more than they spent last year.
“Because no one is denying it—and each side may have its reasons—the Bobby Abreu rumor that says the White Sox offered the free agent a bargain-basement low $8 million won’t go away. That’s half of what Abreu made last year with the Yankees, who were not considered to be overpaying their right fielder. And it’s light-years from Abreu’s initial request of three years and $45 million. But economic reality has set in for free agents. While the free-spending Cubs signed Milton Bradley for $30 million over three years, a player five years younger and with less power, Abreu is having trouble finding a job. So are Ken Griffey Jr., Adam Dunn and Manny Ramirez, the best right-handed hitter of his …”
To answer a question asked in here, if Crede’s back flares up, the same people who were calling Smith a coward for not signing him yet will be among the first to rip him for signing him.
Some, perhaps. Not many, and not me.
I have never, not once, criticized the Twins for signing Mike Lamb, Hernandez, or Adam Everett.
Each were reasonable, cheap, short term attempts to patch holes or provide insurance.
None of them hurt the Twins financially, and one can make a convincing argument the Twins would’ve been farther from first place had they not signed Hernandez. He filled in pretty well for half a season in which all five projected starters were still in diapers, Baker and Slowey spent time on the DL in the first half, Bonser couldn’t hold his rotation spot, and Liriano clearly wasn’t ready. They kept him a month too long, but he was easy to jetison.
Lamb and Everett didn’t play well, but that’s on them, not Bill Smith.
I will go on record publicly right here, right now: If Crede signs, and never sets foot on the Metrodome field, I will not fault Smith for the effort, and I will consider it a worthwhile gamble.
Re: Giants and their interest of Crede:
In 2009 there was a total of 3 mentions of Crede (and those in passing) in a sampling of 2 major newspapers and 8 blogs that cover the Giants. They had scouts there this week like the Twins. Nothing more than an one liner mention of the fact. Everyone is talking about Manny, Abreu and Dunn, so I assume that that’s where the Giants’ priorities are.
I’m with thrylos on this all the way. I’d rather any of the other options than Buscher.
Except he left off one option. The Twins keep Buscher even with Crede, and Crede gets hurt….yuck.
I also agree with the Pro from Dover.
Except he left off one option. The Twins keep Buscher even with Crede, and Crede gets hurt….yuck
then they are at the Buscher/Harris platoon that is the same yuck to begin with.
Sorry, I left off the part where they dealt Harris while keeping Buscher….that would disappoint me. After all, Buscher is LH and Harris is RH like Punto and Crede….can’t you just hear the “logic”?
USAFChief:
Well said sir! You speak for the fans on this one. But we are the fans. What we want and what ownership wants are not quite on the same trajectory. Therein lies the problem. I would like to see them sign Crede. I dont see them signing Crede.
But you said it really well…..
We need to sign Manny for two years and win back to back World Series… LOL
Chief, the only “downside” (and I’m not sure it’s much of one) is that if you sign Crede, the next move might be to deal Harris or Buscher.
Then don’t deal Harris or Buscher. What possible return could you get for Buscher anyway?
Like I said, the downside is money and Buscher/Harris platoon at third. They’ve got money and they’ve already got the alternative.
“The Twins keep Buscher even with Crede, and Crede gets hurt….yuck
then they are at the Buscher/Harris platoon that is the same yuck to begin with.”
No they are not.
If they sign Crede and discard Harris, then Crede crashes, its Buscher-only time, even against LHP’s.
That is NOT yuck.
Its more like BORKA-BORKA-WHEEEEZE!
I say you offer Crede a base of $4mm; if he plays in 130 games, then throw in the $1.1mm to equal his ‘08 pay. You can also then add incentives based on performance (HRs, RBI, etc.). Maybe even a club option for 2010.
He can’t expect to much more than Wigginton, who signed for $3mm per year.
IMO
Why would you discard Harris (a guy who can play 3-4 positions and is RH, something that the Twins lack with 4 LH starters and 2 SH) for Bushcer (a guy who can play one and a half positions -horibly- and has options and is a LH something that the Twins have more than enough?)
Most likely outcome is Harris on the bench Buscher to Rochester.
I’d agree that if they bring in Crede that Buscher would go to AAA, probably playing 1B with guys like Hughes and Plouffe most likely at 3B.
Also, if DY is still a Twin and not an everyday OF, then I’d send him to Rochester too. He needs to play, not sit.
USAFChief,
Right.Looking at the roster,if Crede is signed, there wouldn’t seem to be any reason not to keep both Buscher and Harris.Best case scenario,Crede plays 125 games,Harris becomes the back up at every infield postion, and Buscher becomes a LH pinch hitter and caddy for Crede against some righties and needed days off.
Worst case scenario,Crede craps out and you go back to the platoon of Buscher and Harris.The only down side for the Twins is not wanting to part with 5.1M.
I think the Twins realize they are bidding against themselves here,and are afraid that if they make an offer Crede will accept(like Gagne), and the Twins will be forced to back peddle again.
Does Buscher still have options?
Does Buscher still have options?
another year
thrylos98,
I agree, but you are the guy who has been trying to convince me that Buscher is the teacher’s (Gardy’s) pet and Harris is the hated step-son.
To keep Buscher over Harris should never happen, but if you are right about Gardy hating Harris……
Let’s see, Boras says Crede is healthy. Hmmm. Didn’t Boras assure the Dodgers Andruw Jones was in shape? I could be remembering wrong. I am getting old.
sane,
I don’t trust Gardy but I think that even he would not be able to pull that out…
This is discouraging. Its not wise to overpay for bullpen arms because the productivity of non-elite relievers is difficult to predict from one year to the next. As an example, remember when the Orioles insanely threw multi-year contracts and big money at Jamie Walker and Danys Baez. Stupid. The Twins have the arms to piece the bullpen together.
On the other hand, you can’t just fill in a gaping whole such as third base or shortstop and cover up the deficiency with a platoon like they plan to go with. It defies all reason to give Punto $4M/year and last year Lamb $6M over 2 years when one is a good utility man and the other is a lifelong backup who doesn’t care for his career (there was a disturbing article with Jeff Pearlman on espn.com this summer about how Lamb felt being a major league player was full of sacrifices in his personal life and therefore his career isn’t as glamorous as some think). Anyway, back on subject–they have wasted so much money in recent years on stop-gap players that flopped miserably: Batista, Ro White, Lamb, Everett that not taking a chance on an all-star like Crede is indefensible.
thrylos98,
OK.
Sign Crede and ship Buscher to AAA after ST.
If we can’t sign Crede, then Harris starts at 3B 80% of the time and Buscher starts against selected “filthy” RHP’s.
I am on board with that!
sane,
I am on board with the 80-20 split, but unless there is something to push Buscher at AAA, Gardy will not be on board with that.
I promise, to never complain about the Twins spending money when trying to improve this team and the guy doesn’t work out. This money will not break the Twins owners and I really think they owe it to the fans who are helping pay for this new stadium, which will put lots of money in the bank, to put the best possible team on the field!!
And they don’t have to spend like the Yankees. Please try a little harder!
I didn’t see that article as disturbing, I saw it as kind of sad. Yes he got paid a lot of money to play here but when he was going through a tough time in MN he was also missing key moments in his kids lives. He was just being honest.
If Buscher still has an option left, that’s fine. But sending him to Rochester means he’s getting play at AAA that you might want one of your other 3B prospects getting. That said, you’d at least have a Spring Training to let things shake out. Then you can decide whether you make a deal to send Buscher or someone else packing.
I also don’t think too many people will rip Smith for taking a reasonable flyer on Crede even if it doesn’t work out. It’s a reasonable risk to take.
OK, I’m convinced on Crede, for anything under $5M in guaranteed money, and incentives not to exceed $7M. If he wants more, Billy is off the hook with me on this deal. A big consideration is LaVelle reinforcing the notion that even Boras must protect whatever credibility he has by avoiding blatant lies regarding his client’s health.
[…] Around the Majors – […]
So let me get this straight…the headline is “Boras says his client is healthy!” and everybody’s going to go ahead and take his word on that one?
Yeah…because Boras would have absolutely NO incentive to indulge a bit on how well his clients are.
I wouldn’t go more than 5 mil. Screw incentives. How about this one: You go on the DL for any sort of back problems and you void half your salary for the year?
Put your money where your mouth is Boras.
My guess is Buscher gets dealt in a minor league transaction so he doesn’t clog the roster at Rochester.
The Twins have several Dr. and I’m sure they would go over Crede or anyone else they are going to sign with a fine tooth comb.
That’s why Sheets didn’t sign with the Rangers he flunked his phy.
The Pohlads are reportedly negotiating to pick up one or two of Denny Hecker’s dealerships. Maybe one of those can play third base.
JimCrikket,
“If Buscher still has an option left, that’s fine. But sending him to Rochester means he’s getting play at AAA that you might want one of your other 3B prospects getting.”
IMO, the Hughes at 3B experiment will end in ST and Valencia will be the only AAA 3B.
If Buscher’s 3B defense doesn’t improve, I think he will become a 3B-1B-DH swing man at AAA and later in MLB.
So he would get only the 3B starts that Valecia doesn’t get.
What would be a sign of Buschers defense improving, the ball going into the 1st row instead of the 4th?
Maybe wait another week or so until a more definitive prognosis and a more nervous player/agent exists.
It’s a buyers market, and maybe the best buys are within the organization. Price tags will be dropping real soon. Buy solid stocks when they’re down,(Mauer Inc. looks to meet stockholder expectations in the upcoming years.)
If Crede signs somewhere else, so be it, we’ll still be covered and can maybe get some future contracts resolved with the $.
Maybe Harris would be excellent at 3rd anyway.
HAVE FUN !!! GO TWINS !!!
I would never admit to even talking to Scott Boras.
Any player’s agent who says playing on artificial turf is not an “issue” for their client with back issues is a liar, plain & simple.
If we take a chance and sign Crede and he hurts his back again, i will not blame Billy for this… It was a known factor when signing him but his potential that could be is too good to not take that chance… Buscher/Harris = ok 3rd baseman
Crede healthy > buscher/harris
DO IT! sign him!
Offer Crede $1 million base with incentives up to $6 or $7 mil. & let him prove he’s healthy & effective. He can then sign a big contract next year with an “important” team on the East or West coast. Or he could get a new agent.
When was the last time the Twins signed a free agent that played regularly? I can’t remember, was it Winfield? Put up the $5 million and get Crede signed. Kouzmanoff and Bell for Young and Perkins is still my first choice but I can live with Crede. Signing a FA like Crede still leaves the Twins with Young as a trading chip this spring and you know they will trade him, it is just a matter of time.
ain’t my money they spendin….. spend away guys! I don’t care who, just fill the various holes in this lineup with SOMEBODY.
Trade Thrylos98. The dumb ass.
Thrylos98 has got to go. Best comment of the day Topp Dogg.
Thank God for agents who make stuff up for us to drool over because “ST”, as they say, can’t come fast enough. Most of these comments come from people who don’t know baseball very well.
The Pro From Dover says:February 5th, 2009 at 5:37 pm
“If the 75% “report” is coming from the Twins, they aren’t being as straight forword IMO.
Like I said in my previous post,if the Twins would just come out and say “we don’t think he is healthy” I as a fan, could live with that.”
Pro,
I guess I wasn’t in school when they taught percent & fractions.
What about 75% doesn’t equal “we don’t think he’s healthy”?
75%<100%
“we don’t think he’s healthy” < HEALTHY
Granted I went to school before the “new” math. In the “old” days 75% was somewhat less than 100%.
I personally interpret “we don’t think he’s healthy”=(75%) to be less than HEALTHY=(100%).
I guess the increased populatity of “Chaos Theory” has changed all that.
Regards, 
So let me get this straight…the headline is “Boras says his client is healthy!” and everybody’s going to go ahead and take his word on that one?
Can you point out the posts where “everybody” is taking Boras’s word for anything?
I was thinking the same thing, Chief… I think there was a healthy dose of skepticism. LEN’s post simply pointed out that, at times, what he’s said about clients has borne out to be true. I thought that was interesting information.
IM GAY!!!!!
Sign Crede before he comes back to bite you in the ass.
First off, there is no way Crede is going to get 5 million to play anywhere. Wiggy was 100% healthy, made something like 4.5 million last year and was seeking 3 years in the 6-7 million dollar range. He was forced to settle for 3 million.
The only reason any team is interested in Crede is the chance they could get him cheap. Asking for anything even remotely near what he got when he was healthy is a deal killer.
I think Wiggy’s deal pretty much set up the going rate for a 3rd baseman right now. I think that is what Crede will wind up getting with maybe a few health based incentives tossed in for good measure.
Even when he was hurt, he managed to play 97 games last year. I also believe he was back by the end of the season.
I guess what I’m saying is, even if he does get hurt, the team still wouldn’t be looking at a total loss. They will still have something to show for it.
I’m not really seeing much of a risk. They should sign him.
My impression of the 75% thing had nothing to do with Crede’s health. I remember it coming from one of the scouts that attended his workout. The scout made the comment that since he was playing at 75%, it was hard to do any kind of evaluation of how healthy he was.
as I’ve been reading I’ve noticed the misconception that IF buscher ends up at AAA that he’ll be blocking Valencia and Hughes. buscher is by no means the top 3B prospect and he has played 1B in the past. if crede is signed the by far best option is to send Buscher to AAA. he won’t block Hughes or danny v and we’ll hold on to him in case crede goes down.
SIGN CREDE! done right it’ll be the 1 reasonably FA signing in about 3 years
Can you point out the posts where “everybody” is taking Boras’s word for anything?
I should’ve worded it: “Everybody’s supposed to”
Here’s the way i look at it what guarantee do the Twins have that Jason Kubel or Nick Punto will be healthy all year? We all know there’s a risk with Crede but it’s only a one year deal and they still have a chance to give hima physical before signing him. I think the potential upside is worth the risk.
one can make a convincing argument the Twins would’ve been farther from first place had they not signed Hernandez. He filled in pretty well for half a season in which all five projected starters were still in diapers, Baker and Slowey spent time on the DL in the first half, Bonser couldn’t hold his rotation spot, and Liriano clearly wasn’t ready. They kept him a month too long, but he was easy to jetison.
Chief, great point. Livan pitched well in the ~10 games he won (and generally horrible in the games he didn’t) and deserved to win those games. He was signed as a bridge to Liriano and, to a lesser extent, because Slowey was hurt at the start of the season. I don’t think his signing deserves to be lumped in with the other ‘bad deals’ as it so often is. Even question whether they kept him a month too long. Although they could have found almost anyone to stink for a month, Liriano still wasn’t close to 100 percent. Cisco was good enough to dominate AAA and some of the lesser MLB teams, but when they needed him to be sharp the last weekend of the regular season, he laid an egg and got knocked out early against the Royals.
“Dragon,
Is that reversed?
If he plays 0 games he makes the max?
If he plays 130+, he makes MLB minimum?”
I believe that was what we in the business call irony.
I think this comes down to the Twins FO trying to get the Mariners to ship us Beltre now instead of July. That’s why they’re placing Crede in the cart and taking a looooong time to get to the registers.
Except for the Yanks, Mets and Cubs there are a lot of teams taking a loooong time to get to the registers.
In the division, the Indians (Wood) and Tigers (Everett) are buying refurbs and the Sox look like they may be relying a lot on unproven products just out of the factory.
It’s a buyer’s market for the most part and there’s little need to pay Crede $5M plus today when he will be marked down by a mil or two next week.
Maybe if the Twins take the agent’s word on Crede and pay him $5M plus, Boras will throw Gagne or Manny in gratis? One of those BOGO deals?
Crede is a crapshoot. If they could sign him with incentives it would be great. When you consider the money they’ve spent on washed up players the last several years, it would be worth some risk. And remember, we’ve got Punto at $4m/yr.
Most apparently think the Twins should sign Crede. Some don’t. Questions of should or shouldn’t aside, what do you all think the chances are that the Twins will actually signe Crede?
The Twins should just work up some kind of contract with Crede where he’ll be paid based on how many games he plays in? If he’s really healthy he won’t mind an incentive laden deal. At age 30 and healthy Joe Crede SHOULD be ready to have a career year. If he’s REALLY healthy.
Good question, Boneyard. My take in order of liklihood:
1. Crede is signed (50%)
2. Stick with Buscher/Harris until the trading deadline (50%)
3. Trade Cuddyer/Humber/cash or equivilent for Beltre/Washburn (5%)
4. Mega-deal, multi-player swap with San Diego for Peavey, Kouzmanoff, and Heath Bell for Delmon Young and stuff (1%)
The last two fit snugly into the wishful thinking category.
How can the Twins determine that Crede is “75% healthy” and not just “75% in shape”? Did they give him a physical? Nobody two weeks before spring training is 100% in shape. Many are not fully in shape by the END of spring training. I don’t see how the Twins can determine the health of Crede’s back by watching him field grounders.
Ok I have an odd theory here. I don’t think the the twins had any intentions of signing Gagne. I think that they just wanted to learn a little bit Scott Boras and how to work with him. Also show him that if they didn’t get what they want that they would walk away with out a second thought. Just a theory but it looks to me to be a game with in.
Walter Johnson there must be like a gauge on his back they can read. The actual reading was 75.37% so they rounded down.
the twins have doctors they can determine if he is healthy or not. fairly simple, it’s not a matter of asking boras he is not a doctor, give him a physical or send him to mayo to be checked out. if they say he’s healthy sign him if they say he isn’t don’t.
sploorp,
“The scout made the comment that since he was playing at 75%, it was hard to do any kind of evaluation of how healthy he was.”
IMO, you are totally correct.
The 75% healthy interpretation is wrong and has been repeated by the media ever since.
Yhe extent of his recover CANNOT BE DETERMINED, since his workouts are conducted at 75% effort because of understandable caution.
You don’t come back from a back injury with immediate full-effort workouts.
Upon further review:
The extent of his recovery CANNOT BE DETERMINED, since his workouts are conducted at 75% effort, because of understandable caution.
You don’t come back from a back injury with immediate full-effort workouts.
That 75% line is just an easy excuse to not sign Crede.
No chance
“That 75% line is just an easy excuse to not sign Crede”
I dont think it’s an excuse it’s their negotiating tool.
How can you believe anything anybody says? It’s all negotiations.
the twins have doctors they can determine if he is healthy or not. fairly simple
not in this case. It’s not like a severed tendon that you can detect with an MRI or a broken bone you can detect with an X-ray. Back surgeries are all about pain relief. Unfortunately, there is not a good way to diagnose pain yet, so the best way to see if someone is in pain (and doesn’t want to admit it) is to see how he moves on the field
The solution is simple.
Bill Smith stands out at third base with a contract and a pen.
Crede comes out of the 3B dugout, back-flips all the way out to 3B, (ala Ozzie Smith) and signs the contract.
Everybody is satisfied.
thrylos98,
That is also how I understand the herniated disc injury. If Crede can play through the pain, sign him. It shouldn’t matter if he is trying to hide it or if he screams in agony everytime he swings the bat. The only limitation on his physical ability is the pain. I doubt if there are many players who don’t play with some degree of pain.
sane after that he goes back to the locker and reaches for his luggage and throws his back out again.
WJ,
Back pain can make you take a third strike on the outside corner, when your brain tells you to protect the plate.
BC,
At $5 million per year, Crede no longer carries his own luggage.
What the heck,take a chance on Crede,we still have other options.As sane suggested weeks ago,see what Slama and Delaney have in spring training.If they dont make the grade we still have time to pick up a RP before the season starts.
sane,
Or hit 17 HRs in 335 at-bats.
If Bill Smith “decides to go in another direction”, he can start running(?) toward center field as the back-flipping Crede approaches him.
WJ,
That’s true.
Crede played pretty well with pain last year, until it shut him down.
Crede is worth the risk. Without all the flops the last few years, we would have 20 million to spend on someone.
sane,
Sure. There’s a point where the pain is too severe to play through. But, if he can play through it, he can play through it. It isn’t a strength or range-of-motion issue. Crede says it is much better.
So … which would be worse, taking a chance on a mediocre guy who is healthy hoping he’ll produce? OR taking a flier on a recent AllStar hoping he’s healthy? I don’t think there’s much difference, except that the latter is probably more likely to happen than the former.
I know it’s not my money but … we’ve paid as much hoping for a miracle out of a mediocre guy, why not take a chance the other way around? Worst case, you’re out $5 mil and you’re still under last year’s payroll numbers, and you’re no worse off than you would have been if you did nothing.
sane,
Crede says he is better, so why not believe a man who stands to become $5 million richer if somebody believes him?
WJ,
Don’t get me wrong.
I am in favor of signing Crede.
If we are the only bidder, (although Boras will find phantom bidders)we should sign him the day before position players report.
Give him an opportunity to demonstrate his latest capabilities, and realize that his choices may be Fort Myers or furlough.
And if there are other REAL bidders, we need to stay in the game and not lose him.
t98 i have a bad back and it is fairly simple if the asked my dr he would say don’t sign him and if they watched me play they would laugh. it’s a 2 headed coin, with the dr saying his health is ok and worth the chance or he is not healthy enough. then the field staff and scouts will have to do the eye test to see if they feel he still can do the baseball skill part of it. if either is a no don’t sign him.
once they get on the field and start playing anything can happen, injuries can come any time mauer hurt his knee in one of the first games of the season, kubal blew out his knee in one of the first games in winter ball its a chance you take with all players. i hope they tell him not to slide into 1b head first however if they sign him.
which would be worse, taking a chance on a mediocre guy who is healthy hoping he’ll produce? OR taking a flier on a recent AllStar hoping he’s healthy?
that “recent All Star” is tricky:
Tony Batista
RonDL White and
Livan Hernandez
were all All Stars sometime in the 3 years before the Twins signed them
WJ,
“why not believe a man who stands to become $5 million richer if somebody believes him?”
You answered your own question.
A man with a motive to lie, is more likely to lie…….Jury Duty 101.
No matter where Joe Crede land’s I hope he does well. I don’t see the Twin’s signing them there way too conservative and when he does sign somewhere else and light’s it up they’ll answer there critics by saying he just didn’t look healthy and his back wouldn’t hold up on are field turf. Same old Same old.
what do you all think the chances are that the Twins will actually signe Crede?
IMO there’s little chance the Twins sign Crede. If the Twins were serious about ‘upgrading the left side of the infield’ Casey Blake would be the Twins starting third baseman.
Somewhere along the line “we want to upgrade” turned into “we like what we have.”
I hope I’m wrong.
I just don’t see the Twins signing Crede, regardless of Crede’s health (or lack thereof). I think there’s about a 1 in 10 chance Crede will be in the Twins’s camp this spring.
that “recent All Star” is tricky:
Tony Batista
RonDL White and
Livan Hernandez
thrylos the biggest differance between those guys and Crede is that he’s still in his prime.
If you gave me the choice of Crede or Blake, I take Crede.
That said, I’m not holding my breath he ends up as a Twin…about a 25% chance.
Crede will never be signed just because we have talked about him too much. If Smith does make a deal, it will be of the “I never saw that one coming” variety.
Crede comes out of the 3B dugout, back-flips all the way out to 3B, (ala Ozzie Smith) and signs the contract.
I think they already used that method a couple years back with Rondell. He back-flipped all the way out to LF and they signed him.
But then, early in the regular season, he skipped out of the dugout on a cold day in Chicago and was never healthy again. What’s scary is this paragraph actually happened. No wonder they’re gun shy about Crede.
Actually, I don’t blame the FO for being gun shy (if that’s what they are in this case) about signing a guy in his 30’s with a bad back. I fault the FO for a lot, but not that.
the biggest differance between those guys and Crede is that he’s still in his prime
Crede will be 31 next season, Batista was 32 when played for the Twins. Not much difference there. And with that back issue…
But look what Crede did in little over half a season last year. That is the best indicator. Batista was in Japan when the Twins called.
WJ, good point. However, there’s no changing the fact that Crede is almost 31 and has a bad back. It is what it is. Also, some guys just get old sooner than others. Andruw Jones sure got old (and fat) in a great big hurry. That’s not the norm, but a guy with back problems is someone I think the club should be very, very cautious about.
why are so many people worried about the twins spending money? they were under budget last yr under it again this yr, they aren’t taking the money out of your kids piggy bank. they have money don’t complain if they spend some to improve this team. they won’t lower ticket prices or the cost of a hot dog if they don’t spend it.
I think it’s pretty much up to Gardy whether Crede is signed anyway. Gardy must not want him, otherwise he’d be a Twin already.
Gardy must not want him, otherwise he’d be a Twin already.
If what Gardy wanted dictated what the Twins got…Harris wouldn’t be here.
they have money don’t complain if they spend some to improve this team.
The question is if Crede is healthy enough to actually improve this team.
“Crede will be 31 next season, Batista was 32 when played for the Twins. Not much difference there. And with that back issue”
Batitsa was out of MLB for a whole year before joining the Twins and was a career .251 hitter. He also had the weirdest stance I’ve ever seen.
ggg, I’m not worried about the club spending money. I worry about them wasting it.
Batitsa was out of MLB for a whole year before joining the Twins and was a career .251 hitter.
The similarities between Crede and Batista are a lot:
Crede is a career .257 hitter (for whatever it is worth - not much) and the last 2 years combined he had 502 MLB AB. Batista had 606 MLB at bats the two seasons before he joined the Twins.
Crede’s best season was 3 years before the coming season (.283/.323/.506 107 OPS+ -30 HR 94 RBI) Batista’s best season was 4 seasons before his Twins’ season (.244/.309/.457 105 OPS+ -31 HR 87 RBI) and the next 2 seasons in the majors he had 26 and 32 HR driving in 99 and 110 RBI. Then he went to Japan because nobody gave him a contract he liked in the US after a 32 HR/110 RBI season. When he singed with the Twins was 2 years removed from that 32 HR/110 RBI season and was 32. Crede never hit more than 30 HR or drove in more than 94.
On paper, Batista was better then, than Crede is now.
btw, the contract that Batista signed to play in Japan was $7 million a year. That’s why going to Japan should not be a black spot on him
“why are so many people worried about the twins spending money? they were under budget last yr under it again this yr, they aren’t taking the money out of your kids piggy bank. they have money don’t complain if they spend some to improve this team. they won’t lower ticket prices or the cost of a hot dog if they don’t spend it.”
The best comment I’ve read on this site. Thanks GGG
WJ -Crede won’t be signed because we haved talked about him?That i think means that many of you think BS reads this blog!
Crede also plays defense. Batista was a scarecrow.
The difference between Crede and Batista is the reason that Batista was released - DEFENSE!!!!!
Batista can probably still hit today.
But he played 3B like a beached whale.
That’s why Batista and Juan Castro were replaced by Punto and Bartlett.
Batista and Crede are not comparable DEFENSIVELY!!
I’m not worried about the club spending money. I worry about them wasting it.
How so? At this point it appears they can either waste it on Crede or waste it on buying down the stadium contribution.
I know which side of that question I come down on.
“On paper, Batista was better then, than Crede is now.”
Except for the fact that Crede is a good defensive player, and Batista is not.
Shoot, I need to refresh before posting.
Chief, you know I agree with you on the push to improve the club. However, it’s always good to define the terms of the discussion and I did not do a good job of that. If there is a likelihood (as determined by the medical staff and others evaluating Crede) of Crede returning at less than full capacity/health, and that bears out to be true, I would consider signing Crede a waste of money. It’s a waste if the guy doesn’t help the club. I consider all FA signing of last year as a waste of money and other resources (e.g., guys who should have been getting playing time not getting it). The only one who arguably helped the club was Livan, but I don’t buy it.
“WJ -Crede won’t be signed because we haved talked about him?That i think means that many of you think BS reads this blog!”
No. I was going for something more in the cosmic sense.
Fair enough Boneyard.
“On paper, Batista was better then, than Crede is now.”
On what paper?
Pulp Fiction?
Factor in defense, or just explain that you only use stats which support your argument.
All other stats may be ignored at the author’s discretion.
“On paper, Batista was better then, than Crede is now.”
Statements like that make Topp Dogg sound like a prophet.
Of course Crede is a better defense player. My point is that even though on paper Batista was better with the bat (and healty) when the Twins acquired him than Crede is now, he bombed on the plate. The likelihood of Crede doing so (esp. after 2 back surgeries) is high. They are both low OBP players (Batista had more power and K’d more). So, if Crede puts up Lamb or Monroe or Batista numbers next year, do you think that the team should keep him because of his defense? That’s where that comparison was going.
Ok - I just looked at the actual numbers. The two seasons prior to Batista playing in Japan, he had OPS+ values of 73 and 80.
That’s pretty terrible. Batista was not better offensively then than Joe Crede is now. More durable? Yeah. Better? No.
Joe Crede and Orlando Cabrera. BS - get it done now and everyone will forget the long winter of discontent.
If Crede struggles at the plate, his total value may still be higher than Buscher/Harris because of his defense.
Lamb, Batista and Monroe were offense-only players who were TOTAL failures when their offense failed.
Two different situations.
“So, if Crede puts up Lamb or Monroe or Batista numbers next year, do you think that the team should keep him because of his defense?”
It would make more sense than keeping Lamb, Monroe, or Batista. If they weren’t hitting, they weren’t bringing anything. Crede can at least bring defense if his offense fails.
Crede is a waste of money. Stick with Harris full time and let Romero have it in 2010. Why should any team give Crede 5 million when he has no shot of making it a full year. Back problems in baseball just doesnt work.
Pete D.
In Crede’s last 2 season he had OPS+ of 49 and 98. They are very similar. Low OBP, low BA, high isoP type of players. Crede’s career high OBP is .323. The last 2 seasons it hovered around Carlos Gomez territories. Last season the deemed “inadequate” by many, Delmon Young had an OBP of .336.
Ask Mike Sweeney and Todd Helton how there back problems are doing. Crede is an average third baseman with a bad back, why does everyone want him so badly?
Crede can at least bring defense if his offense fails.
If his offense fails, it will likely fail because of his back. If his back has problems, it is likely that his defense will suffer and will be at Harris’ levels. The Twins already have a good defense, low offense third baseman on the roster (that one who replaced Batista)
thrylos,
In Crede’s last 2 season’s he had back problems.
Healthy back = healthy stats.
If his back goes out, THEN .. HE GONE and Harris-Buscher get battlefield promotions.
Harris is healthy at least you can count on him to play.
Thrylos, you manage to illustrate how pointless it is to correlate the past and present for these players. The trouble with looking back at all these numbers, and especially for the purpose of comparing players, is that the next step of extrapolating them, of predicting future production, is mental masturbation. There are so many variables, and many of them are simply unknown.
“If his offense fails, it will likely fail because of his back. If his back has problems, it is likely that his defense will suffer and will be at Harris’ levels. ”
That just doesn’t seem to be the case. Check out his UZR ratings from the past two years on Fangraphs. They are much better than what Harris put up last year at 3B.
Crede is a better defensive option at 3B than Harris or Buscher. Punto would probably be the only one better, but then you have the issue of filling shortstop.
Crede is a valuable player if he can give you close to league average offensive production and above average defensive production from 3B. If he doesn’t bring either, he won’t be worth much.
That’s right, birdofprey. However, isn’t that exactly what the club pays the FO to do? I mean, they have to base their decisions on something, don’t they? Bill Smith: well-paid mental masturbater.
Harris was just learning the position. Let him have it in spring training and he will get a feel for it. He has the arm and it doesnt take a lot of range to play third base.
Crede does not deserve to be compared to Lamb and Batista. If healthy everyone knows Crede is a top ten 3B. Is he healthy? If he is, then he won’t hesitate to sign a one-year incentive laden deal.
A deal that will give him the opportunity to make as much or more than he did last year. If he performs up to the level he has shown to be capable before the back injuries slowed his career.
Even if Crede does get hurt he would be a good mentor for Harris.
Crede is a top ten third baseman because there are so many bad ones. Doesnt mean he is worth 5 million.
kirbyelway,
“Harris was just learning the position. Let him have it in spring training and he will get a feel for it. He has the arm and it doesnt take a lot of range to play third base.”
I think that is a good idea.
Crede (if healthy) is POTENTIAL batting order protection for Mauer-Morneau which Harris is not.
But if Crede doesn’t work out for the Twins, IMO your solution is a good fall-back plan.
Come to think of it there is no way Crede is a top ten third basemen.
Exactly, Boneyard, Billy Smith and his pals are paid to make good decisions, and extrapolating past performance is so inexact, so much more is involved, and the error rate is inherently high in his business. That’s why some of us prod some of you to be a little less harsh in your criticism and more generate with your praise.
generous
Crede does not deserve to be compared to Lamb and Batista.
with the bat he does.
Career numbers:
Crede: .257/.306/.447; OPS .753
Batista: .251/.299/.453; OPS .752
Lamb: .277/.333/.417; OPS .750
Crede is still young enough o be in his physical prime. Lamb and Batista were not. IF Joe is has really overcome the pinched nerve in his back we COULD see better years from him in the next couple than we witnessed when he played for the chi sux. I am well aware that people rarely leave back problems in their past, but it could happen pinched nerves can be dealt with effectively through surgery.
If you look at his D and his ability to hit 30 HR’s a year Crede is definitely a top ten 3B.
The Twins should just have a physical before signing Crede.I want his production but if we get him for 40 games is it realy worth 5 mil and another wasted effort at the 3rd base position.conduct thier own phisical other sports do it all the time.
I dont know much about baseball stats outside of the obvious ones, but I would like to know what Crede, Batista, and Lamb’s HR and RBI numbers are in a comparitive number of ABs or per AB ratio if anyone could come up with that info. To me “when healthy of course” Crede is as good or better than the other two offensively, and way better defensively than the other two. 5 million sounds like alot to Twins fans, but compared to the junk that the team has spent money on in recent years I would say it’s low risk,and medium to high reward.
I don’t know Boras, but I know the type I think he is. The dynamics that determine what he says do not include the truth. The Twins need to rely on their own people’s observations regarding Crede’s health and durability. The only value in Boras’s words are to alert you as to what he is trying to hide.
I’d take Crede for just the 18 games vs. the White Sox.
If Boras always lies, he wouldn’t be successful. You may or may not like what he’s done for/to this sport, but do you really think he’s a liar? He may stretch the truth one way or the other, but if he’s out and out lying most of the time, he’d be out of business by now.
Crede hit 30 homers one time when he was healthy and he is not healthy or he would have gotten a multi yr deal by now. Therefore he is not currently a top tem third baseman.
I think we’re on the same page, birdofprey, although I don’t recall terribly harsh critic of the FO (or ownership, for that matter). Perspective is everything, I guess.
I would like to know what Crede, Batista, and Lamb’s HR and RBI numbers are in a comparitive number of ABs or per AB ratio if anyone could come up with that info.
here you go (caveat: RBI do not mean much as a comparison because it depends on how others before you get on base and in what position in the lineup you bat):
Crede: 22.1 AB/HR 6.6 AB/RBI
Batista: 20.7 AB/HR 6.4 AB/RBI
Lamb: 38.7 AB/HR 7.6 AB/RBI (he is not a power hitter like the other 2, but has higher OBP)
as far as the age argument goes, Crede will be 31 by opening day and Lamb and Batista were both 32 when they played for the Twins.
Um, that should have been “recall being a terribly harsh critic . . . .” Sorry.
Not lying mww: But certainly in a position where it’s beneficial to stretch the truth.
Because what agent is going to come out and say “Well my guy here isn’t really totally ready to play yet…”
But the guy has a track record of shady negotiations. The whole opting out of A-Rod’s contract in the middle of the World Series…earning $50MM just to NEGOTIATE with Matsuzaka…the embelleshment on the condition of Andruw Jones last season…
If Crede will take 2 million plus incentives then I would do it, but he won’t because of Boras. I have no problem with starting the season with Harris.
Boras is an attorney. If lies are being told, it is not the attorney but the client.
Big Jon, that was tongue in cheek, wasn’t it?
Does anyone remember when the Twins felt that Frank Thomas wasn’t 100% and took a pass on him for $500K and incentives??? Now 5.1M is another story…but still, we’re to trust our F/O over Boras…I personally don’t trust either group, Boras is an agent w/both his and his representations pocket book in mind, and the Twins will feed us anything just to save $$ - I say, go to Crede and tell him here’s 1M guaranteed, you’ll make 5M if you play “X” amount of games, and you’ll get a bonus if you play “X” more and hit for “X” and have a fielding pctg of “O” - as you can tell i have NO clue as to how incentives are drawn up…but you should get the point.
Thanks for the stats, and great point about the RBI numbers.
BS is afraid Boras is trying to do to the Twins what he did to the Dodgers with Andrew Jones.
I like a $3M 1yr deal with incentives that max the contract to $6M if he has a very good year.
Question I have though is who do you put in AAA or trade: Buscher or Harris?
I don’t see us having those two plus Crede on the roster at once. I also think Tolbert could really surprise people this year.
If I were Crede, I’d hold out for the guaranteed money, waiting until one of the 30 starting third baseman in MLB goes down with an injury.
do your “due diligence” and then either s**t or get off the pot!
…and another thing, why are we acting like a 5M contract for 1 year is such a risk? I mean, if they feel that Harris/Buscher are good enough, and Crede is an obvious upgrade when healthy…then why not make the move considering you’re still about 20M under the payroll you had 2 years ago - and they made money that year, and would this year even if Crede fails to stay healthy. This should be a no-brainer for a team in desperate need of a 3B’man even if the F/O is convinced they have the talent already in place. I say the larger risk is assuming that Harris/Buscher are going to get the job done this year!
Agreed, ggg, but are the Twins even on the pot?
There’s little doubt that there’s room to find a reasonable contract if the Twins have a reason to believe the guy could be and stay healthy and still allow Crede to get a “guarantee” at or above the $5 million-and-change he made last year.
Just for example, sign for $3.5 (with a few incentives based on ABs, etc) for 2009 and some sort of team or mutual option for 2010 that involves a $1.5 million buy out. He gets his guaranteed $5 million in total, and in return the Twins get an option on retaining his services for some sort of reasonable price in 2010.
Let’s face it… the only reason anyone is even thinking that $5 million is a lot of money to risk is because of the way the FA salaries have deteriorated. If this were a “normal” year, throwing $5 mil at a guy with the potential Crede has would have been a no-brainer… in the unlikely event that you’d have that option in the first place.
…or are they just smoking pot?
Mike wants wins and Big Jon the lawyer,
“Joe Crede has been cleared to play and is ready to compete every day, as any other player would be going to camp,”
“Joe Crede is healthy,” Boras said. ”The playing surface he plays on is not an issue”
Do you believe these statements?
Do you think Boras believes these statements?
For the record I did not say he lies all the time. I may have been a bit harsh but at the most the “truth” is only a lesser dynamic for him. Under “my rep” or “my continued effectiveness” or “money” for him.
Phantom,
How does JJ Hardy like being on the Twins?
In answer to the question whether the Twins will sign him–my intuition all along has been yes, but it’s fading. However, if the Twins actually want him, they are making this way more complicated than it needs to be.
The Orioles got Wigginton at less than half his asking price (and without a starting job) without endless hemming and hawing and competing media reports.
This makes me conclude that either the Twins really don’t want him, or Bill Smith has become overly tentative is his decision-making due to past (hasty) mistakes.
What’s weird is the amount of indecisiveness over the likes of Gagne and Crede seems disproportionate to the amount of time that goes into the bulk of the personnel and playing time decisions (eg Buscher, Kubel, Guerrier basically guaranteed playing time almost by default, since they are on the “inside.”)
On paper, Batista was better then, than Crede is now.
Offensively perhaps, but an inferior overall player.
AM, I think you’re looking at this from the wrong angle. I would ask, “why SHOULDN’T the Twins take their time on Crede?”
He’s not going to sign anywhere that already has a clear starting 3B. Who besides the Giants and Twins has a position available to virtually hand him when he reports?
The Giants may indeed make him an offer… but in case you missed it, they’re in negotiations with some guy named Manny, who happens to have the same agent as Crede. Do you REALLY think Boras is going to try to pressure the Giants to sign Crede if it means there’s even the slightest chance it would take money the Giants have available for Manny?
So if nobody but the Giants and Twins want Crede and the Giants are not going to make an offer until the Manny sweepstakes are settled (and probably WON’T be interested if they end up getting Ramirez), why would the Twins negotiate against themselves at this point?
The price is only going to go down… at least until it’s determined that the Dodgers are willing to outbid the Giants for Ramirez.
I agree with JimCrikket the way the market is why jump at 5 when you could get for 3.5 any team taking a look is going to worry about the back.Make a fair insentive package to get him to the 5 mil requested.
Good post JimCrikket. Too many twins fans are frustrated that we don’t spend money and that we should just throw whatever amount at Crede, otherwise he might bite us in the ass later. This is foolish. He’s injury prone and isn’t that good to begin with. If Wigginton is getting 3mil/yr then there’s no way i’m paying Crede 5 mil. Let the twins take their time; the only way this is a good signing is if its cheap.
“Joe Crede has been cleared to play and is ready to compete every day, as any other player would be going to camp,”
“Joe Crede is healthy,” Boras said. ”The playing surface he plays on is not an issue”
Do you believe these statements?
Do you think Boras believes these statements?
I have no idea whether Joe Crede ‘has been cleared to play.’ I suspect neither do you. I don’t even know what ‘cleared to play’ means.
I do know he’s been taking part in baseball workouts every other day in Arizona, and has been willing to let anyone watch those workouts, so at the very least we can conclude he’s not laid up in a hospital bed, or confined to a wheelchair.
Any contract offer the Twins might make would presumably come with a physical exam as a requisite–that’s a fairly normal requirement when signing a free agent. So it doesn’t really matter what Boras ‘believes.’ Whether or not a doctor could accurately determine the health of Crede’s back is another issue, though, I grant you, but if there is some clearly damaged physical aspect to his back, a physical exam would find that.
As for the playing surface issue, the astroturf is long gone. There is no medical evidence to suggest playing on field turf is any more damaging to an athlete than playing on grass. In fact, the limited research (I posted a link the other day, but I’m too lazy to look it up again) seems to suggest the opposite.
I personally have no idea how the Metrodome surface might affect Crede’s back. I suspect you don’t either, nor does Boras.
I do think if there’s any affect, it’s too trivial to even enter into the equation. His back is either fixed, or it isn’t, and the field he plays on won’t make one iota of difference either way, ergo the issue is just another red herring coming from the Twins front office. Or maybe a clever negotiating ploy, depending on your general opinion of said front office.
Trade Gomez and Perkins to seattle for Beltre, work on extension then have him here for three years.I am not willing to give up on young.I would much rather lose Gomez who has so much more to prove with the bat starting with not guessing when to swing.
Chief,
Good arguments.
Do you believe those statments?
“I don’t even know what ‘cleared to play’ means.”
I THINK that it means the Medical staff which performed his surgery feel that they will not be risking malpractice action when they tell him that he is able to play baseball.
In other words, they feel he has fully recovered from the surgery and the defect which warranted the surgery.
JC–
Good points. I guess that’s been built into my intuition about them ultimately signing him all along; The Twins are acting as though they have an understanding that they can take their time deciding on Crede. This probably means that Crede wants to play for the Twins, and so is waiting for them to decide.
It does seem like the decision-making process is tortured, but with an injury case, maybe this is standard. If Crede is able to ramp up his effort to 100% effort, maybe there will be a decision made soon.
When is his next workout?
sane - Unfortunately it’s not looking good for Hardy. He’d be a superior pick up to Crede.
Definitely won’t happen if we get Crede, but there’s still an outside shot.
The Brewers have absolutely no pitching and now it sounds like even Sheets is out for awhile with yet another injury.
Brewers have to address this somehow which makes Hardy expendable since the deal is right and he’s signed for a similar amount as to what Crede is seeking.
Call it 10/90 that it’ll happen.
His back is either fixed, or it isn’t, and the field he plays on won’t make one iota of difference either way, ergo the issue is just another red herring coming from the Twins front office.
Chief, it doesn’t seem like the Giants or any ‘mystery team’ Boras says is in the mix regard this as a red herring. They’re apparently as reluctant to take Crede off the market as the Twins.
I THINK that it means the Medical staff which performed his surgery feel that they will not be risking malpractice action when they tell him that he is able to play baseball.
He probably was told that following his first surgery—the one that ‘didn’t take’— too.
All this discussion over a worthless, washed up player like Crede. He wasn’t any good, even in his prime.
The comparison to Batista is valid. Tony wasn’t that bad of a fielder. He came up as a SS. By the time the Twins got him, he was all but finished. Just like Crede is now.
Chief, it doesn’t seem like the Giants or any ‘mystery team’ Boras says is in the mix regard this as a red herring. They’re apparently as reluctant to take Crede off the market as the Twins.
Hey Fran, how are ya?
I agree teams are reluctant to sign Crede due to the possibility his back will prevent or degrade his play.
What I don’t think is an issue is whether he plays (or doesn’t play ) on grass or field turf.
I view that as unlikely to have much influence on the number of games he plays. If his back holds up, field turf won’t negatively affect it, if his back doesn’t hold up, it won’t have anything to do with the field.
Chief: It was always my understanding that it was less about the turf itself and more about the concrete that was underneath the turf.
“if his back doesn’t hold up, it won’t have anything to do with the field.”
You don’t know that. This is just one of the many things you purport to know, yet have no clue.
J.J. Hardy is okay, but nothing special. Not very dynamic on the base-paths. The Twins have too many base cloggers already.
Bottom line is that the Brewers don’t want to trade him.
Next.
You don’t know that. This is just one of the many things you purport to know, yet have no clue
You’re right. I don’t know that. Which is why I said “I view that as unlikely… .”
T: I agree that with astroturf, there is evidence that you might as well be playing on the concrete.
But I don’t think that’s as much of an issue with field turf, and as I posted there is at least some medical research that seems to indicate the same.
In any case, we’re talking about one year, 81 games. The problems with playing on astroturf tended to be those associated with the pounding player’s joints (and back) took from playing on the turf over long periods…three, four, five years.
All of which leads me to come to my personal conclusion that the turf issue isn’t very important. If his back is healthy, one year of playing on field turf isn’t likely to contribute to his back degrading, if he does have problems, it’s likely a continuation of his previous existing injury and he would’ve had the same problems if he was playing on grass, turf, or foam padding.
Just my opinion, and others may have valid reasons for feeling differently.
Chief, as long as I can keep myself from looking at my Roth IRA tracker (and even that is not so bad today), I am pretty good. Thanks for asking.
You may be right about the field not being a factor with Crede’s back. He was playing the bulk of his games on grass when the injury developed.
Anyway, my feeling tells me Crede will wind up a Twin. I’ve heard he is a buddy of sorts with the M&M boys and if he’s got anything left, the juices in him have to flow a little bit at the prospect of facing his old team 19 times or whatever it is. He may have to accept a contract weighted more toward incentives than base salary to make it work, though.
Chief, as long as I can keep myself from looking at my Roth IRA tracker (and even that is not so bad today),
Today was a good day, Fran.
I got back some of what I’ve put in this year, and if the trend continues I hope to soon start getting back some of what my company contributed…
By 2015 or so I hope to have recovered what I put in last year as well!
[…] season playing on the Metrodome’s AstroTurf. So far Scott Boras (who reps Crede) insists that his client is ready, and he recently implied he’ll sign with a team in the next week. But the Twins are dragging their feet. The sense is that they’ll platoon Brian Buscher and […]
a healthy crede in the batting order would look awfully nice. buscher most likely odd man out.
