Bankruptcy no threat for cash-flush Twins
Posted on February 13th, 2009 – 1:44 PMBy Joe Christensen
Veteran Star Tribune reporter Randy Furst covered Wednesday’s press conference, as the Twins unveiled plans for Target Plaza, the gateway to their new ballpark, which opens in 14 months.
Furst had questions about the cost, at one point asking how the Twins felt unveiling such an “ostentatious” plan in this troubled economy.
“Randy, you’ve really gotta let this money thing go,” said Jerry Bell, president of Twins Sports, Inc. “Not every company is bankrupt.”
Ouch.
These are tough times for newspapers, no doubt. The Star Tribune is trudging through Chapter 11, even though readership is at an all-time high, between print and online.
Meanwhile, the Twins are practically recession-proof.
Though they’ve done almost nothing to improve last year’s team, their season ticket sales are at an all-time high, as fans angle for priority seating at Target Field.
Hennepin County committed $392 million to the ballpark project, through a sales tax increase, with the Twins paying $130 million, along with any cost-overruns. (The plaza will cost nearly $9 million, with the price split between the Twins and Target.)
Franchise value soars
Last week, Twins CEO Jim Pohlad described why his family has no plans to sell the team, even after his father’s recent death.
“It’s a community investment,” he said. “It will be a good investment. It hasn’t so far been the best, but we have confidence in it for the future.”
As well they should. Major league franchises are gold mines.
This month, a group led by Jeff Moorad purchased the San Diego Padres for more than $500 million. John Moores had bought the club in 1994 for $84 million before San Diego helped build a new ballpark.
Forbes magazine estimates the value of every baseball franchise each year, and owners scoff at the inflated estimates. Last April, Forbes put the Padres at $385 million, an apparent underestimate. The magazine had the Cubs at $642 million, and they recently sold for $900 million.
One can guess the Twins’ estimate — $328 million — was low, as well. Carl Pohlad’s purchase price, in 1984, was $44 million.
Indeed, not every company is bankrupt. But some have been handed incredible advantages.
Besides the public support for their new ballpark, the Twins also collect millions annually from MLB’s revenue sharing and luxury tax plans, and many millions more from the game’s national TV, radio and Internet deals.
Payroll still down
Still, after letting their payroll reach $74 million in 2007, the Twins let that number dip to $57 million last year, and their current 25-man Opening Day projection is $60,452,000.
Every nickel counts, too.
Under the collective bargaining agreement, the Twins had a right to cut Delmon Young’s salary by 20 percent this year. Including his pro-rated signing bonus, he made $1,440,000 last year, so the least the Twins could pay him was $1,152,000.
On Thursday, the Twins signed Young for that amount, exactly.
They also pulled a $3 million offer to free agent reliever Eric Gagne, eventually settling on a $1.3 million deal for Luis Ayala.
Hey, it’s business. Not personal.
Now, they seem to have the market cornered for free agent third baseman Joe Crede. The only other team reportedly bidding is the Giants, who have a promising third baseman in Pablo Sandoval, who batted .345 last year in 145 at-bats.
Crede, 30, wants a one-year deal with a base salary of about $7 million, with incentives that would pay him at least $11 million if he stays healthy.
He was an All-Star last year but a back injury limited him to 97 games, after he played just 47 in 2007.
No doubt, he’s an injury risk. But even with all their payroll room, their lack of home run power and their untested platoon of Brendan Harris and Brian Buscher at third base, it’s a risk the Twins are in no rush to take.
In their thinking, Crede’s agent, Scott Boras, is in denial about the market. They’ll show him.
See, it’s not enough for the Twins to operate from a position of strength. Sometimes they like to rub it in.
134 Responses to "Bankruptcy no threat for cash-flush Twins"
A bit of a harsh tone to this one, Joe. Haven’t seen you rip thier lack of spending much this winter until now. Someone at 34 Puckett Place rub you the wrong way in the last couple days?
First I’d heard about Delmon getting a pay cut. Regarding Crede, how long do you think the Twins can wait?
Can’t we sign Orlando Hudson and shuffle the infield to go morneau, hudson, casilla, punto?
I’ve been waiting all day for someone to post some news on the Twins - this is okay, Joe, but give us something new. Too bad that Delmon has his salary cut but if he has a big year (which I predict he will) he should have a big pay increase next year. I am so ready for spring training to start so that we can see what our team is going to look like in April - got to believe that Crede is pretty much out of options for teams and might as well take the deal the Twins are offering. Come on Twins, let’s go!!!!!
FYI-$44 million invested in 1984 at even a most 7% rate of return would be worth $239 million in 2009. So it’s not as though the Twins value has sky-rocketed in some huge fashion. This does not even take into account the additional cash that they had to sink into the team in the 90’s when they were losing money. Nor does it take into account the $130 million they are putting towards the stadium. If anything they have thus far gotten a fairly poor return on investment. I don’t feel sorry for them, but I don’t think the tone of this post is justified either.
Regarding Crede, how long do you think the Twins can wait?
Not much longer.
Regarding Crede, how long do you think the Twins WILL wait?
Too long
The tone of the post is justified.
Add arrogance to the list of Twins’ sins.
Next time there is a bond issue that the Twins need to have passed, let’s see how far we can shove our ballots up Jerry Bell’s @$$!
They should go after Orlando Hudson instead - move Casilla to SS and have a Punto/Harris platoon at 3B. That way you have Punto to back-up Casilla if he regresses and a multi-gold glove all-star at 2B. Yeah they’d give up a pick but they had 3 last year. Can’t believe this guy is still sitting out there.
Oh yeah - and Jerry, you’ve really gotta let this hoarding money thing go.
Criticism of the off-season ought to be tempered - at least, IMO - with a realistic look at the ball club.
Would Crede coming in & having a healthy 2009 with “average” production push this group over the top to world championship contender?
Would Gagne & Crede together do it?
Signing guys for “one & done” is what you do to fine tune a championship contender or to placehold until the prospect in the system arrives.
This may be the year to see how the younger guys develop & then, if they take a step forward, work to add some “big help” for 2010.
If Delmon’s contract $ is correct his base pay actually went up by close to $400,000. I guess he can’t be to wond up. IF memory serves me correct he had a large bonus paid to him last year which was a large chunk of his salery.
Crede and Boras need to come back to reality. The report I read said that Crede wanted a $7 million GUARANTEE, with incentives that could take him to Beltre level. Shoot, I’d much rather have Beltre.
Thank you Joe for finally addressing something your colleague (LV3) has refused to ever (EVER!) acknowledge - the Twins are the biggest bunch of frauds, and those of us who believed a new stadium would mean they would spend more money w/said stadium are the biggest idiots for ever believing it. Jerry Bell has been quoted as saying the Twins payroll would go up $40 million w/the new stadium. Do we all realize how minuscule that really will be if it in fact is the case? TV revenues have gone up, ticket prices will go up, licensing exists, additional seat sales, parking, concessions, jerseys (you can bet they will have new jerseys as well), etc, etc. And, as Joe pointed out, they have already REDUCED payroll this year. What this all means is in terms of payroll, we will rank exactly where we are today if not lower, meanwhile the Pohlad Family and their Bobo J. Bell will be counting their money. The only added expense the Pohlads and J. Bell will have is for additional accountants to keep track of it all.
And can we give up the Beltre talk? It will NEVER happen!
…Because honestly, we probably wouldn’t like Beltre after we got him
andrew: Apparently, Hudson’s a bad clubhouse guy. Gardy doesn’t go for that sort of thing.
Give Crede Punto money.
anyone who takes it to Boras is cool with me
To me this marks the end of Delmon with the Twins. This is more than a shot across his bow. For the .25 million they saved I think they ruined the kid for the Twins. Too bad. When he blossoms he’s gonna dominate for 5 or 6 years. I sure hope I’m wrong but I don’t see a kid like him recovering from this.
The economy is down but when companies look to spend money it is seen as a bad thing. Wake up people, the economy will not improve if everybody stops spending. You just need to spend within your means.
Jeez, all the recent cloudy weather has apparently made everyone a little irascible.
The Twins are a good organization, from both a sporting sense and a financial sense. I appreciate the comment about a 7% return being worth $239 million–helps put a lot of this in perspective.
As for TwinsAreFrauds and the $40 million payroll increase: wait for when they have to resign Mauer, Baker, Morneau, or any of their other good, young players. Mauer alone could command half of the $40 million increase (in cost per year terms). Often some of the very best free agents available are Twins players, and we are now in a position to keep them (ex. Hunter, Santana).
Hold off on criticizing a team that came a coin flip away from the playoffs last year for returning intact. If the Twins don’t spend for Mauer (assuming he maintains his current production and is healthy), then please please please tell me “I told you so.” Until then be grateful we didn’t sign a Livan, Lamb, or Everett this year.
TwinsAreFrauds-
Sometimes the truth sounds awful harsh and hurts, but thanks for saying it. The vast, vast majority in this market turn a blind eye to it. To me, this is more frustrating than their terribly mid- to late-90’s years. Then, they sucked. Now, we’re a few players away from making a run, and the powers that be refuse to make those additions.
Honest comments like yours oftentimes are met with criticism and questions of loyalty, but at least you brought up what this organization truly is. Because of Carl Pohlad’s greed, this club is nothing other than a tool to make money for it’s management, and no more.
I think the Twins’ “arrogance” is justified. Every year they put a solid product on the field. Last year after losing Hunter and Santana it was supposed to be doom and gloom, but the Twins were right there at the end. Joe Crede???? Puh-lease. When you talk Joe Crede and $7 million or $11 million (for a PT player with a bad back) you make me think that this bailout thing we’re doing for Wall Street, bankers and other millionares has extended to MLB. I would bet the Twins have someone - ANYONE - in the farm system who could be as effective as Crede.
How dare the Pohlads and Jerry Bell try to run the team for a profit!
The theory is that the twins roster shook up a bunch as the season went on, and that a full season without livan and lamb and monroe doing bad things is an improvement in and of itself.
However, if there was ever a perfect storm year where a decent team with a little room in the budget could “go for it”, now would be the year.
Boo hoo Strib…..is that what we have sunk to….Strib guy gets called out because he keeps asking whiney questions…and Strib Blogger backs him up?…seriously?….this is the journalistic professionalism that you guys swore to uphold when you left college?…honest to God, does the whole paper have to carry the same crybaby torch?…..The twins are frugal….they spend the money on the things they need, and not on the things they don’t….like another said…how dare they try to make a profit…..
Good job Bell!! It’s a prime example of the fear the liberal media has put into America that continues to drive this country deeper into a recession… THE FEAR TO SPEND MONEY… OOOOOOOOOOO.
The “liberal media” is driven by advertising, which strives to encourage people to spend money.
I just hope the owners don’t milk this new stadium knowing that they’ll fill the seats for several years no matter how the good the Twins are. Wishful thinking I guess. I just feel that we’re 2-3 decent players away from being a contender and the owners are indifferent - winning will just be a bonus in their eyes.
I hate when people say the Twins need to spend money. Are you people saying you want them to throw $7 million at a guy who can’t stay healthy just so they can rank higher on the payroll? That just doesn’t make sense. They are looking to pay market value for free agents. I’m surprised no one is asking for Manny.
The new Target Plaza plans make me very excited. Driving by the new stadium today made me very excited. Going into this season with 1/10 of the unanswered questions we had last year makes me very excited.
This is a trying time for everyone, but I turn to the Twins to give me a release from all of that. I’m just going to look forward to a great last season in the metrodome with a young and exciting team. If you want to take out the struggling economy on our local baseball club, good for you. I for one just feel badly for you…
Biggity,
You are an excellent kool-aid drinker. Your philosophy is exactly what the Twins had in the 90’s - spend nothing, then when we sign one of our own guys for market value (Radke), we can point to it and say “look, we’re not afraid to spend money!” The goal isn’t to maintain, the goal is to get better, and signing Mauer, Morneau, etc, is necessary, but they have to have something added to them. There aren’t two or three guys in the lineup, there are nine. There aren’t three guys in the field, there are nine. I like Mauer, but if some team is willing to eventually spend $20 million p/year on a 6′5, 230 pound, singles hitting catcher who will be approaching 30 years of age, then that’s great - we all know teams like the Twins are doing way better financially then they are telling the public and is further justification of the point I made earlier.
What is Brian Buscher lacking that no one wants to give him a chance? Last year he was batting around 300, I am not sure where he finished. But he came through in the clutch with a couple of big hits, yes he had some errors but not horrible. And I think third base is a tough spot to play, especially if you only start 1/4 of the time. He’s a big guy, seems like he could hit the ball out if he had more at bats? I’m a twins fan, I guess I love the thought of developing a third basemen!?
Is it conceiveably possible that Twins brass wants to be good - but not too good - in the final year of the dome? Do they want to be champs exiting the dome? Or would they rather wait, be close, then go for it with the zing of the new ballpark in the mix as well? I dunno, just food for thought…
Manny would be great. But seriously…the article has a point. I like the Twins careful approach but do think that they are sometimes too “frugal.” I also applaud a member of the media for holding the teams feet to the fire on that. That is the job of a journalist hired to cover a team. I (like I believe almost everyone else feels) do not want the Twins to spend money just for the sake of spending money. I have never in fact seen anyone even suggest that. However, if there are individuals out there that can make the team better and the Twins can afford them then why wouldn’t they spend it? That is the real question. Are the Twins guilty of refusing to spend money that they could afford to to make the team better simply because management is more interested in saving the money? Some on here beleive the answer is yes and some do not believe it to be so. We really do not have all of the facts ourselves but must make our best guess.
Buscher is lacking competent fielding skills.
I’ll back off on Crede as long as Harris is the main one at third. But if they want Bush man in 1/2 the time then go sign Crede.
A little pay back for owners after the crazy salaries of the last decade. Whatever, they all make more than I so they can cry at someone else’s table.
Thank You Joe! Finally someone calling a spade a spade. The Twin’s are cheap and you called it on them. Hopefully they will put some of that public money too use(Stadium built by taxpayers) We deserve more period!
If you look at the stats for Crede, Buscher, and Harris, Crede is only arguably slightly better. He is suspect for durability. He want more than $6M more than Harris/Buscher combined. And he comes with the Boras baggage, and is only going for one year. You rent a STAR for a year to egt aworld series, not a marginally better than average for a fortune. Let him pass.
Good post, Dana! And I wouldn’t be so harsh if the Twins didn’t mean anything to me. Does anyone recall August 1, 1986? I do - it was the day before my 8th birthday and I spent it at the Dome watching Kirby Pucket hit for the cycle, Bert Blyleven get his 3000th strikeout, and the Twins beat the As 10-1 with Oakland’s only run coming on an Alfredo Griffin homerun over the baggy. I want them to succeed and its frustrating to see the team owned by folks who are not willing to take the added steps necessary. How long can they say “we’ve got good young people to build around”, “wait until Mauer and Morneau are in their prime”, well, what if they ARE in their prime? What if they get hurt? What if…? For our sake, I hope the window isn’t closing, but it may be, and our ownership continues to do nothing.
Crede should take a look at the money that Wolf and Abreu got.
Ruidoso….
I was literally thinking the exact same thing. Harris is the one getting screwed here. If Gardy was like Harris is the 3B, I think a lot of fans back-off. But this is Gardy and he plays favorites. Gardy likes Buscher, plus Buscher is good pals with the MVP. Same crap different season!
Small ball Gardy type crap. Harris should be the SS. Crede should be the 3B.
I’m day dreaming again….
1.Span LF
2.Mauer C
3.Young RF
4.Morneau 1B
5.Crede 3B
6.Casilla 2B
7.Kubel DH
8.Harris SS
9.Gomez CF
Probably never see this but this line-up could outscore last years. I know a lot of you are thinking I’m crazy putting Young 3rd, but look what hitting between M&M did for Cruddy. Kubel and Young could flip flop between 3rd and 7th depending on if the starter was left or right handed. Kubel bats third against righties and Young against lefties.
Joe,
Maybe you should have pointed out the Twins were the 9th most profitable team in 2008 based on 2007 payroll and are probably heading for a TOP 5 RANKING for this year -
http://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/33/biz_baseball08_The-Business-Of-Baseball_Income.html (sort on operating income).
The Koolaid drinkers still believe the Pohlad joke about “it’s hasn’t been the best investment but somehow we’ll get by”.
Touch ‘em all, Joe. There can be no more free PR passes when public money is involved. This organization has skated too long without enough deserved criticism for its penny-pinching ways. Seriously, does anyone expect for them to suddenly start spending money on a team that can win once they get in their new stadium?
shazel, an improvement, but while everyone is bitching, why not propose replacements for Gomez, Span, Casilla, and Harris? They all have potential, but none of them are solid Major League ball players, yet. All we hear is “one or two players away”. More like five or six. And some people are going to point to the club not signing Wiggy or Crede if they don’t make it to the playoffs. Those guys are improvements, but not enough. I find it funny that so many are willing to ride with our Gomez, Span, Casilla etc. because they are likeable and young. But if they truly want the Twins to spend their way to a World Series, they have to look at more than 3B.
TwinsAreFrauds–
I understand your point. What I was trying to point out/suggest is that perhaps the best way to raise the Twins talent level–which is what everyone complaining on here is talking about when they want us to sign an expensive free agent just to sign one–is to hold onto our own players that become elite FAs.
So in the case of Mauer, ya he’s a singles hitter, but he’s also a top 2 or 3 offensively and defensively valued catcher, and is so significantly better than the average catcher that he’s potentially worth as much as $20 mil a year. (See Gleeman for more on this).
Now imagine if our FA pickups this year were simply still having Santana? Perkins would move back to relief, someone in relief would be bumped/traded/released/sent back to AAA, and as a whole the entire pitching staff upgraded.
It just seems like so many MLB contracts turn out like NBA deals where a player has one good year or does well in one system, and then signs somewhere for a crap ton of money and 5-6 years, and then doesn’t produce very well because they are in a different system/aren’t protected like they were before, etc. I just think that a lot of baseball contracts are over inflated, and I’m glad the Twins aren’t pulling a TWolves with Troy Hudson, Marko Jaric, Trenton Hassell, etc etc just to sign someone.
I didn’t see the Mets or the Yankees do any better last year because of their spending. Or the Rays. Are they drinking the same kool-aid?
Great post, Joe. Your tone is totally justified, and I have to worry if the Twins leadership is starting to mimic that of the Royals — a perennially awful franchise that still turns a profit every year in spite of it all.
Here’s the new business model as far as I can figure it. Find some fail-safe ways to make some money every year, say, one or two franchise players, get tax-payers to agree, when the economy is inflated, to cover the rest of your expenses, and you don’t even have to put together a quality product in order to turn your profit.
And then, when the bubble bursts and the economy plummets, as the rest of the world asks, “How, for the love of god, how do you sleep at night,” laugh in their faces.
Signing Hudson would be awesome, then just have a good old fashioned spring training battle between Hudson, Casilla, Punto, Harris, and Buscher for the 3 infield positions. Hudson would be signed to play 2B, and there wouldn’t be much of a battle there. Casilla would slide to SS, but he’d have a push from Punto to play better, because that little go-getter does put 100% into everything. You’d also have Punto pushing for a starting spot at 3B, along with Harris and The Bushwacker. No way Gardy should be handing out starting IF positions pre-spring training, as he already called Punto is starting SS. That’s not cool. Nothing like a little competition to make a guy play a little harder, and depth is a good thing.
Biggity,
But the Twins DIDN’T sign either Hunter or Santana, and they haven’t shown any signs they will resign their own players, those that do reach elite status and are pending free agents (not arbitration eligible). The one exception may turn out to be Mauer because I don’t know if even the Twins would be so arrogant as to think they could possibly justify letting him leave.
And by the way - has spending helped the Angels, Red Sox, and Yankees remain competitive (playoff competitive) on a consistent basis? I’m not saying the Twins need to spend stupidly; they’ve done that on their own the last couple of years (is last year’s free agent class a good enough example?). My original point was that if we think the Twins are going to spend more money than other teams now because they have a new stadium, we’re idiots. Pohlads, Bell, Smith, Biggity - prove me wrong!
Mr. Bell,
I wouldn’t get too arrogant. Sure, your Twins are funding a plaza, but, remember the lion’s share of the stadium funding is from the taxpayers. I’d call that a form of a bailout that saved your butt Mr. Bell. Now how about spending some of that cash on a couple of good free agents for once!
Is Santana really worth $674,019.00 per START?
In Hunter’s case, I don’t think they really wanted to keep him, certainly not at market value, and I didn’t either. In Johan’s case I do wish they had tried harder, sooner, to get him signed to an extension. Terry Ryan basically admitted he screwed it up. By the time last winter came, I hontestly don’t think Johan was willing to re-sign for any price.
If you want to complain about the low payroll this year, that’s valid to some extent. They could have sprung for the extra $ needed to get Blake, etc. To be the dig about how they’re making out like bandits because they paid $44 millon 25 years ago and are now worth $325 is both incorrect and uncalled for.
TAF–that’s why I’m willing to take a little bit of a wait and see approach to the stadium and spending thing. They’re not in the new stadium yet, so it’s not like they’re getting all that new revenue right now.
(Besides, were any of the free agents this year worth it? Didn’t seem like a very good crop of cornerstone type players available, just a lot of marginally above average ones. But who know, maybe the Twins’ way of doing things does need to change and we need to sign a bunch of marginally above average talents to expensive contracts for the sake of taking the next step. I don’t know, can’t argue with success tho. Unless what everyone’s saying is that the Twins haven’t been successful recently. Then I understand everyone’s point much better.)
Starting next year, though, we MUST see a return on taxpayer investment on the field by either resigning our players (most likely, I think) or by signing more FAs at market rates.
Kind of reminds of McCombs vs. Wilf in a way. McCombs didn’t want to pay Randy’s bonus or something, so he traded him just before Wilf got on the scene. Let’s hope the Twins move from being McCombs-like to being (at least FA spending wise) more Wilf-like in the new stadium.
Please…. All you negative nelly’s out there, if you don’t have something good or at least constructive / creative to say, don’t say anything. If the Twins do great, you’ll say I told you so, if they do bad, you’ll say I told you so. You should be happy the Twins are a competitive team on a regular basis, you have cheap seats (comparitively), and a great crowd and a great history. As to you Crede lovers, go root for the Sox! There is a reason his price is so high! If he were THAT health and THAT convinced of himself, he would sign a 1 year gig with a contender just to proove it, knowing that he had a big payday coming next year because of it. If he is not sure, why not convince (con) everyone into thinking he was and go for guaranteed money, last shot you might as well make it a good one. Let him go…. there are half a dozen in the minors better without the risk. Besides he was with the Sox. Praise the rivalry and what you have!
howeda, good point. A few years after Mr. Pohlad bought the team, the Twins made Kirby Puckett the first $3,000,000 a year player. Now we are talking about $3 mil being a reasonable price for a broken-down Joe Crede.
i live in atlanta. i miss seeing my twins live. i catch them on directv though. i’ll take the twins, you can keep the weater. market is down…bobby abreu signed for way, way less than he was initially asking over 10 mill a year, now 3 with angels.
atlmike…in shorts and 65degrees.
go cakeeaters
or was it 5. dont remember
Go after O-dawg at 2nd or Cabrera at SS, either way we upgrede the middle infield and we get a solid #2 hitter, plus the most important thing LNP goes back to his utility roll.
Are these players worth it? What does that mean? He is when you consider spending $7 million on Livan Hernandez. If other teams, managed by professional baseball men, some of whom do happen to be as intelligent as the Twins brass, are willing to pay a Santana contract to a guy who didn’t win any Cy Youngs for their organization, who didn’t win any gold gloves for them, who didn’t take the mound or the field on nearly every occasion as Santana and Hunter did for the Twins, then yes, they were worth it. At the time, I would have said, “no, they weren’t worth it” because my thinking would have been that the Twins were going to sign others to take their place. Livan? Lamb? So yeah, looking back on it and seeing what other people are willing to pay for other players, yeah they were worth it.
Isn’t the extra bucks spent on the frills of the stadium just what the ecomonmy needs? Spending extra money on Crede… doesn’t help the economy… so if those are the weighing factors I say put it into the stadium.
However, I have a sneaking suspicion that they can afford to do both.
I agree they shouldn’t overpay for Crede but I think that he can be had for a 5-7 million deal with incentives.
They’re (Crede) willing to hold out so long becuase they have their own reservations about their helth or they’d go the route of an affordable one and done to max value for the next contract. But if he doesn’t performt this year… he wrecks his future earning potential.
Lots of risk.
If Cabrera had Punto’s clubhouse personality he’d be perfect for the team. Maybe the guy to move them over the top. But he doesn’t. There’s a reason he never stays long in one place. There’s a reason he’s not negotiating with 5 or 6 teams right now.
Joe Crede doesn’t deserve 11 million even if he stays healthy. Period.
Abreu didn’t get 11 mil, Dunn didn’t get 11 mil, Burrel didn’t get 11 mil, Blake didn’t get 11 mil, Wiggy didn’t get 11 mil.
Do you know why people think Crede is worth 11 mil? Because they want a reason to complain. They’ll say that “any price is worth it to fix a need”, but the fact of the matter that is NOT the case.
If the Twins pay 11 mil for a guy like Crede, what does that tell the rest of the guys on the Twins? The Mauer’s, the Morneau’s, the Nathan’s?
A 7 mil contract makes Crede the 2nd highest plaid player on the team if I’m not mistaken. And 11 mil w/ incentives would make him THE highest paid player on the team.
You guys REALLY think Crede is worth more than Mauer, Nathan, or Morneau? I sure as heck don’t.
But let’s sign Crede for 7 mil. Let’s give him 11 mil if he gets his incentives. Then when all our young guys start hitting their turns at the big pay day…they can all point at Crede and say “Well gee whiz you gave that guy 7 mil and he’s had back issues for years.”
I remember when Crede was first labeled as the Strib’s “White Knight” (TM). There were users saying that going as high as 5 would be their ceiling.
But nope, now the song’s different. Suddenly Crede is THE guy and worth more than what anybody here was willing to throw at the previous 2 guys that were the “White Knight” before they dropped down to #3 on the list.
Why would we wanna sign “O-dawg” or cabrerra when we would have to give up a draft pick and spend money we need to use for mauer?
The Twins are fine with Buscher/Harris….we had a similar platoon in 91 and that worked out pretty well.
To make a long story short…those types are playing right into what Boras wants. Desperation.
Crede’s price has climbed from 5 mil+ to 7 mil+. And all that’s happened is Boras opening his mouth.
Word out of Frisco is that they won’t go past 5 mil PERIOD. That may have since changed, but I haven’t heard anything.
“Randy, you’ve really gotta let this money thing go.”.
Well excuse me, C. Montgomery Burns. In fact it is us (Hennepin County taxpayers), who need to be able to let this money thing go. “This money thing” being the $400 million burden heaped upon us by a not-so-cash-strapped baseball franchise. I’m glad that Jerry can be so glib about it at a time like this.
“This money thing” being the $400 million burden heaped upon us by a not-so-cash-strapped baseball franchise.
That’s funny. Last I checked all the Twins did was ask the gov’t politely for some money.
Your friends in the Gov’t went ahead and handed it over. They could’ve just as easily said no.
But why didn’t they? Oh right…because the FANS didn’t want to see the Twins leave Minnesota.
I know it’s dangerous to swing logic around these parts, but I think from time to time it’s neccesary to get out the ol’ surgical 2×4.
I’m sure you’re really missing that three cents on every $20 you spend too MJ….You arent ever going to go to a game at Target Field and you LOVE the metrodome right?
[…] Around the Majors – […]
$3 mil with incentives to $5. Anything hier is ridiculous for Crede
“Though they’ve done almost nothing to improve last year’s team”….
Atta boy Joey C.
Yeah, no doubt a different tone to this here blog. Nice and healthy to vent frustration once in a while, ain’t it??
I think the Twins should do what the Angels did last year with Hunter. Fly in, meet with Crede, offer him $5 million and incentives for up to $3 million more. Tell Boras and Crede this offer is open for 48 hours – no more.
If they take it fine. If not, move on. Give them a chance to sign on the dotted line. If they choose not to, then cut off all negotiations, and go with Buscher and Harris.
The closer we get to spring training,the better their position improves vs Boras.He is basically bluffing now.I don’t think Delmon deserved to have his pay cut,afterall he hit 290.I don’t think this will affect his psyche,he has shown by losing weight and showing up for Twins Fest when sick,that he could have a breakout year.
GENO,
I disagree on the affect this will have on Delmon. He’s very young. This coupled with the thing with him not being a starter Gardy spoke about. I’m just afraid they lost him. What did they save? About 1/4 million? I hope you’re right though. I think the kids gonna be elite for someone.
Tony, if and when I go to see the Twins at Target Greatland/Field/Ballpark, I will buy a ticket — which is where the money should come from.
I personally do not mind the Metrodome. I have enjoyed dozens of games there, none in 35 degree/rainy weather. Also without the smell of burning refuse wafting through the outfield.
If you like the field so much, then put your money where your mouth is an make a donation. Don’t volunteer my wallet. You and the county commission could use a lesson in property rights.
“If you like the field so much, then put your money where your mouth is an make a donation. Don’t volunteer my wallet. You and the county commission could use a lesson in property rights.”
I’m pretty sure it’s a representative democracy. Don’t get mad at Tony, get mad at your representatives. Or, even better, don’t purchase anything in Hennepin county, and then you don’t have anything to complain about.
After reading this stuff, I really can’t tell who’s more fraudulent and who’s more arrogant. Will the $9M in private money being spent on the plaza benefit our public investment, or will it hurt it? Seems like something to be applauded, but its hard to be fair these days if you’re sitting in a cubicle somewhere as it circles the drain.
Sounds to me like Jerry Bell stuck his foot in his mouth a little bit by being sarcastic. At the same time, SPENDING THE $9 MILLION DOLLARS instead of sitting on it, is a good thing in this economy. On the other hand, ragging on the Twins for running a profitable business seems a little harsh. Would you rather be following the Pirates, Brewers, or Marlins (the last few years since their most recent salary “purge”)? Maybe the owners should fire the GM & manager every 1&1/2 years? No, the Twins are not perfect, far from it. But at least IMO they are sincerely trying to win. If the businesses you all work for did not maintain a profit, how long would you have YOUR job?
I’m pretty sure it’s a representative democracy. Don’t get mad at Tony, get mad at your representatives.
This.
The Twins would’ve left by now if there had not been a new stadium. And there would not have been a new stadium had the taxpayers not help fund part of it.
So the fans who didn’t want the Twins to leave also didn’t want to help build the stadium that was the only way to keep them.
Either way, there’s losses. Either the state loses the team (fans pissed) or the fans help pay for the stadium (fans pissed)
The overlap in those two groups is comically large.
coco,
I have no problem with the Twins making a profit.
Jerry Bell rubbing a (possibly) soon-to-be unemployed reporter’s nose in it - THAT is my problem.
Maybe it was one good friend kidding another.
If so, no harm - no foul.
But without that knowledge, Bell’s comment doesn’t sit well with me.
I’m with you T…No way Crede gets $7 mill and up to 11. That is a strange message to send to the Mauers and Morneaus, etc.
It’s gotta be a $4 mill and up to 7 in incentives. That is very reasonable.
Now, if Crede signs elsewhere for $4 mill and up to 7 in incentives, then I will be one disappointed jkucenic.
The Twins will be flush with cash after all of the fans buying season tickets to get priority for the new stadium find out that their priority is going to also require payment of a seat license. If you can’t pay, your priority will be meaningless. They will have plenty of cash for additional payroll.
Who care when they unveiled the plaza. It is not as though they just came up with the idea last month.
Get outside and look at the actual construction. I it just a sidewalk extension from 1st avenue.
I have plans for it Dated May 5, 2008 sitting on my desk. Oh, guess what I have been working on it for more than a year.
Why don’t we just tear down the Ballpark and put a parking lot in.
Here is the ironic part…I was and am opposed to the construction. Did it not snow just about a foot on opening day last year?
Joe C:
Thanks for the critical review. Jerry Bell was out of line in his comment to Furst. The Twins’ management needs to realize they are where they are because taxpayer paid for their stadiums.
As for Crede, the 7 mill plus incentives is ridiculous. Abreau signs for 5, and Crede thinks he is worth 2-6M more than that? That’s crazy. Even moreso if there are authentic medical concerns. But if the Twins were truly concerned about his back holding up, why would they continue negotiating at all?
I say wait him out. If he can find some idiot owner to pay his demand, then too bad for that other team. 3-4, with some incentives….that’s it…..he’s leaving after this season anyhow.
DY will be gone before the season starts, they have done everything they can to push him out the door. Gardy’s Fargo words, lots of rumors none of which have been put down and now the salary cut. Not exactly the way you make a young player feel like part of the teams long range plans.
Best thing for him is to get out of here.
this is a business, but it is a so called entertainment business. i am getting tired of getting entertained for 162 games and letting some other teams entertain me for the playoffs.
dont be fooled about the twins paying a guy a hugh salary with performace bonuses, because they will be protected against injury if the player can not entertain.
For those offended by Bell’s comment, if you read Joe’s post more closely, it’s fairly obvious that that was not the first question that Furst asked about the cost. After 3-4 questions about the cost, when you’re really there to discuss the design, etc. you might have had that response too.
Joe C,
Now that you’ve vented, maybe you can get back to your usually high standard of reporting.
A couple of topics you might want to explore.
a.) How the now complaining taxpayers HAVE benifited from the BAD lease the Twins have operated under for 20 odd years. Can you do that even though you probably don’t give a rats behind because the Pohlads have mooney.
b.) Maybe a primer of “The Strib’s HOW to run and operate a profitable business” sub title “Do what we say…NOT what we do!!!”
c.) How do some (at least) other communities profit from building government financed staidums. Examples you might want to research. Camden Yards (Baltimore), M&T Bank Stadium (Baltimore), Verizon Center (Washington DC) and the Nat’s DC Stadium.
Regards,
I don’t think this Crede thing is over. He wants to play, the Twins don’t think he’s worth that much. When this is done, I think Boras will be the first to blink. Then we’ll see how stupid the Twins are.
And if Crede finds another team to pay him $11 million, I see no loss for Minnesota.
“For those offended by Bell’s comment, if you read Joe’s post more closely, it’s fairly obvious that that was not the first question that Furst asked about the cost. After 3-4 questions about the cost, when you’re really there to discuss the design, etc. you might have had that response too.”
Just read the whole thread, I think this post sums up my take accurately.
By the way, the Twins odds to win the World Series were 11-1 in Las Vegas this week. Surprisingly good for a team that is so incompetently operated according to many on this blog.
Just got home and I’m admitting that I am not reading the messages. Just want to say I’m disappointed in the post, Joe. Sounds like the folks at the Strib are a little hyper-sensitive about the money issue and this post comes across as just taking a swipe because a coworker felt slighted by Bell. It comes across as defensive and petty. I expect better.
Joe C.
I really appreciate the work that both you and Lavelle do covering the Twins, especially this blog. That said, I would read / follow your work at another site or venue in heartbeat since I have not been a fan of the Star Tribune for a long time now. I have no desire to kick them while they’re down, I’m just stating how I feel. The Strib was the newspaper I grew up on, but some years ago their predictable tone and stance on issues of the day coupled with new news sources in the marketplace made it expendable to me.
“howeda” is TCF CEO Bill Cooper in disguise. Those bankers have to keep watching one another’s back, ya’ know. Personally, I may punch Jerry Bell right in the schnoz if I ever cross paths with him. What arrogance! I need to gain some payback for my % of sales tax going to the Twins stadium…Jerry and Lester Bagley must have been sipping from the same Kool-Aid lately. Loved the post, Joe.
[…] deals he can find before his stardom reaches anywhere beyond FireGardy.com … the Twins decided to jack him out of a bit of salary. Under the collective bargaining agreement, the Twins had a right to cut Delmon Young’s salary by […]
Is it possible that a lot of those who registered bitter opinions tonight have uncomfortable personal relationships with concepts like capitalism, wealth creation, and even democracy? You don’t know the context of Jerry Bell’s remark. You don’t know the history surrounding the reporter’s coverage of the Twins. But Jerry Bell doesn’t get the benefit of your doubt, does he? Why is that?
When did Joe C. turn his blog over to Reusse?
We’re getting a new stadium?
We’re discussing the boathouse for the women’s rowing team at the University of Minnesota, Eddie Shore. As I recall, it was about $6M in public funding.
I have uncomfortable relationship with capitalism, wealth creation, and democracy. I was born in the ghetto and forced to sell crack after being abandon by my mom at 14. When i got caught i was 18. After being made a felon and losing most of my rights i have been forced to work minimum wage jobs and live in poverty. So yes, I do have a problem with these concepts.
The only homer i know besides Simpson is Lavelle, my god that man has no shame. You can ask a tough question Lavelle, you won’t get fired.
Joe, I’ve read your blog since the beginning and this is by far your best. Thanks!
Somebody ought to define the word “ostentatious” for Randy Furst.
Ouch.
Thanks Joe! Hopefully the FO is reading.
You also got nice love on KFAN (DB) yesterday.
Props to Joe C. on the post.
Are the Twins (organization) acting more and more like polititions? Promising this and that to get elected (or in this case selling more tickets and other crap) and then turning around and doing whatever the hell they want once they get people to go along with it? I love baseball. The game. The money side is getting more and more ugly. Give us the lip service, smile and when we’re not looking, rob us blind…
TwinsAreFrauds- nice post.
“Kick ‘em when they’re up, kick ‘em when they’re down.”
NERanger, I have no idea who Bill Cooper is (I’ll take your word for it that he’s CEO of TCF) but I assure you I’m not him.
If this post was just to rip the Twins for doing nothing this offseason and having the gall to have a $60 M payroll two years AFTER they had a $74 M one, I wouldn’t have a problem with it.
But the petty swipe over Bell’s comment to a co-worker, and the implication that the Twins are making out like some kind of huge bandits because the value of the team is now $330 million is a little petty, and in the second case flat incorrect.
I’m all for Joe, LaVelle or anyone else at the Strib asking tough questions of the Twins now and then. But how about asking Bill Smith instead of Jerry Bell. Jerry Bell is in charge of the stadium which by all accounts is going well, on time and on budget. Yeah, the Twins are shelling out an extra $4.5 million for the plaza. Why is that a bad thing, and why are we critisizing them for it? It’s not even part of the stadium. It’s a public area. It SHOULD technically be paid for by public tax dollars. So let’s be glad the Twins and Target are footing the bill, not critisize them. If you want to crisize Target, fine, but it’s still petty. Just because they laid off workers, which is unfortunate, does not give the public the right to start telling them how to run thier business. At least as of now, we still operate under capitalism. This is besides the fact that they agreed to this many months ago long before the econcomy tanked.
Excellent post. The only depressing thing is reading all of the kool-aid drinkers posts here. These folks get more excited at the prospect of the Twins making money than they do at the thought of winning a World Series. Goofy people. Joe hit it out of the park, Twins management could muster up a good goober and spit right in the fans faces, and many of them would say ‘At least this goober on my face is home grown and farm-system developed goober, not some overpriced free agent goober.’
To me, a fraud is someone who calls someone else a fraud because of something in the future that hasn’t happened yet, but the original whiner says won’t happen the way he wants it to, so that makes the other party a fraud even before the event happens or fails to happen. Understand?!?!?!
Just wondering when we’ll hear one way or the other about this Crede situation. It just seems like he doesn’t have a lot of options. He knows the pitchers in this division and he is a stellar defensive player(which used to be important around here).
Considering the large number of arbitration eligible players the Twins will have to deal with next year I’d just as soon see them set the extra money aside to keep Baker, Liriano, Mauer, etc. around for a while.
Again, saving for the tomorrow that never comes, just being good enough. Cutting at the ‘07 deadline when you’re 4 games back, doing next to nothing at the deadline in ‘08 with a division being handed to you, identifying holes after the season and offering one excuse after another not to fill them.
Now the Royals - THE ROYALS! - are sniffing around Orlando Hudson. At the very least Joey Sideburns should be signed to Morneau money - yesterday.
Maybe Carl found a way to actually take it with him. Stay classy Mr. Bell.
Why don’t the Twinkies go with what they got. It was almost good enough last year! Buscher will be a pleasure to watch at 3B.
Very childish post, Joe. Grow up.
Alright fellow Twins fans, here is the plan: We are over here in Peoria (AZ) from San Diego for my son’s hockey tourney. We are right across the street from the Peoria Sports Complex (I think that is where Crede is working out). My plan is to invite the young man to the Tilted Kilt or Hooter’s for some after workout lunch and drinks. After you guys get Jerry Bell to fax the contract to me I have Crede sign an autograph (wink, wink) and wah la. We have a third baseman for 3mil plus 5 mil in incentives. I’m a 6′6″ 250 lbs Marine so if he or Boras try to renig on the contract me and my combat buddies pay them a visit. So B.C, go over and have Jerry fax that contact down. Wish me luck.
my understanding is that bobby abreau is at areasonable price who has plenty of power and also if you can get crede in the other position now we have doubled our power source between the two invest 12 million
starting lineup
span
cassila
mauer
crede
morneua
cuddyer
bobby abreau
punto
gomez
with young, kubel, redmond,harris
punto
gomez
Abreu signed with the Angels this week at a very reasonable price. Abreu is a devastatingly productive hitter which means the Twins would call him “fragile” and accuse his agent of “misreading the market.”
This of course is code for we’re too damn cheap to improve our product or as Jerry Bell transparantly boasts, “We’re negotiating from a position of strength.”
Translation: This fan base is quite happy with a slightly above average non playoff team that has cut almost $15 million in payroll after fleecing the public for a new stadium. So why bother improving the team when the Pohlad family can bank the difference?
Abreu didn’t get 11 mil, Dunn didn’t get 11 mil, Burrel didn’t get 11 mil, Blake didn’t get 11 mil, Wiggy didn’t get 11 mil.
What’s your argument? Abreu, Dunn and Burrell don’t play third. Are you suggesting the Twins should’ve upgraded at DH?
Wiggy and Blake do play third. Are you arguing the Twins should’ve signed one of THEM?
Of course not. You just like to deflect any reasonable criticism of the front office.
Do you know why people think Crede is worth 11 mil?
Nobody, except maybe Crede and Boras, thinks Crede is worth $11M. Nor will it take that much to sign him.
A 7 mil contract makes Crede the 2nd highest plaid player on the team if I’m not mistaken. And 11 mil w/ incentives would make him THE highest paid player on the team.
You’re mistaken. On both counts. But then, a grasp of even the most basic of facts has never been your strong point, has it?
You guys REALLY think Crede is worth more than Mauer, Nathan, or Morneau?
That’s not the question. The question is, “is he worth more than Buscher/Harris?”
BTW Joe C: Nice blog entry. It’s about time someone at the Strib starts reporting simple facts about the Twins.
Cheap cheap cheap cheap cheap. Thanks for pointing it out, Joe. It’s about time somebody in the media acknowledges the Twins FO’s complete unwillingness to improve the team. Of course I’m going to watch the team, and I’m going to support the team, but I can, and am, still furious with their business practices and how they treat their fan base.
the way the twins think, is if the have a somewhat competitive team,that should
make the fans happy. and in this economy we must watch the money very very closely. well what happen a couple of years ago when our payroll was 74+ million with no stadium deal to this years 60+ million with a stadium deal. i know i can be only dreaming but what would happen if they (twins) spent some money and fill a hole on the the team since korey koskie last played for us. COME ON TWINS, throw this dog a bone
maybe we are building target field for the wrong home team. at least we can see how a owner who is not afraid and is willing to deal to put together a winning team. go vikes!!!
I agree Bob.
I agree Pete.
at least we can see how a owner who is not afraid and is willing to deal to put together a winning team.
Last I checked, the Twins have been in the playoffs more times with the Pohlads in charge than with the Wilfs.
Not to mention, the Vikes blew their one-game in the playoff just like the Twins last season.
Oops.
But Wilf is at least making a notable and noticable effort. The Twins do nothing and seem rather satisfied with that. Fans should expect more.
This entry has clearly created some divisions…
The “divisions” have always been there TK2.
The Vikings also needed more fixing than the Twins did.
Not to mention, the Vikes blew their one-game in the playoff just like the Twins last season.
The Twins didn’t make the playoffs last season, T. But as usual, don’t let facts stand in the way of the point you want to make.
Looking forward to your next post Joe. Thank you!
TK(2). Thanks.
GO JOE!!
Finally, someone has called the Twins and their cheapness money grubbing out.
It is about time. Anyone that is giving Joe a hard time for this post is a kool-aid drinking or related to the Pohlads. Listen, I like the Twins as much as anyone. In Gardy we trust and I love the players they have had playing here over the years.
However, when the chance is there to take it to the next level and they are by their own admission swimmming in money and profits, why can’t they give their fans something to get excited about after they(taxpayers) have handed them a brand new stadium and supported the team they way they have.
Most Twins fans I know are die-hards and is it really too much to ask that ownership give up a few profit percentage points? Really?
They should spend to get the best team they can on the field for the first few years of the stadium and go to win it all. The windfall profits for the new ballpark should cover most payroll things they would like to do as long as they don’t get crazy.
I am not saying spend just to spend, that never works. However, when there are holes and we have noone in our system to fill them and these holes are what is keeping you away from possible GREAT things, then you need to dust the cobwebs off the pocketbook and get some players in here to fill them and run with it.
Twins are flush with cash. Know what they should do with it? Sign Manny Ramirez to a four year $100 million contract. I’m serious. Capitalize on growing fan excitement, and have one of the greatest all time right handed hitters hitting between Mauer and Morneau and let this trio carry you into a new ballpark as a serious World Series contender. It’s a huge investment, but it would pay huge dividends. The Twins should finally roll the dice.
Great thought, but it willn’t happen. Too bad.
