Notes on a scorecard: Time to give the take sign
Posted on May 18th, 2009 – 8:51 AMBy Joe Christensen
NEW YORK — I wrote about the absurdity of it all — three consecutive walk-off defeats and a 3-22 regular season record at old and new Yankee Stadium since 2002 — in this story.
For more on Joe Mauer’s game-saving play and LHP Sean Henn’s potential promotion from Class AAA Rochester, click here. And for more impressions of Yankee Stadium, click here.
But I ran out of space to mention a key point Manager Ron Gardenhire made after Sunday’s game.
In the eighth inning, the Twins had the bases loaded with two outs when journeyman reliever Brett Tomko fell behind in the count to Matt Tolbert 2-0. Tolbert fouled out to the catcher on the next pitch, which was high and would have been Ball 3.
This came after Mark Teixeira robbed a run-scoring hit from Denard Span with his diving stop and throw home from his knees.
Then, in the 10th inning, Carlos Gomez worked into a 2-0 count against Alfredo Aceves, and popped up to first base on the next pitch.
“We’re just going to have to start giving the take sign,” Gardenhire said. ”You want them to understand the game and not be robots. That’s what this game’s all about, but it happened two or three times today, where we’re 2-0 counts. We need to get a guy on base, and we swing and pop it up.
“That can’t keep happening. You give them leeway and then you have to start telling them this is what we’re gong to do. Those are the disappointing parts of this, but we’ve gotta learn from it. So we’ll talk to them, like we always do. Continue to make them understand the game of baseball.”
Gardenhire noted that Gomez not only swung at the 2-0 pitch but “almost fell down doing it.”
It reminded me of a quote I saw Friday at the Yankee museum.
“I swing big with everything I’ve got. I hit big or I miss big. I like to live as big as I can.” — Babe Ruth
Note: I’m doing a live chat today at noon. Here’s the link. Stop by with your questions, and please, bring some sanity. I know people are worked up about the three gutwrenching games against the Yankees, but you can’t pin the losses on one or two individuals, especially the pitchers who gave up the walk-off hits. Keep in mind, the Twins are 1-for-25 with runners in scoring position in this series.
296 Responses to "Notes on a scorecard: Time to give the take sign"
Huh? I could have sworn Dick Bremer made a point that Gardy sat Tolbert on Saturday because he thought Tolbert was taking too many pitches and not being aggressive enough.
The baserunning must be A-OK, too.
Little things kill this team. Like Gomez trying to steal third with a lefthanded batter at the plate. They just aren’t thinking. Yet, it’s refreshing to see that Gardenhire has finally figured out that getting on base is key, especially when as an organization you are allergic to hitting for power.
why is ulger going thru all the gyrations if theres no sign for the hitter to abide by….are all those signs for baserunners…baseball has changed ….i thought thats what coaches were for - give the take sign when needed, hit and run etc….are these guys left on their own, and if so, shame on you gardy…these are still kids, trying to impress without thinking the whole team situation thru……
Gardy makes a good point. There comes a time when a player needs to know what the game plan is without having to get it drilled into his brain after every pitch.
As far as being aggressive goes, there are times to be aggresive. A 2-0 count with runners (2?) on and the game tied is NOT one of them.
I think Ayala will be gone this week and I that Crain may have a phantom injury that sends him to the DL so he can “rehab” in the minors for a little while.
I haven’t looked back through the play-by-play, but it seems like there were several instances in which Tolbert came up in a crucial situation, and I remember thinking “If only Mauer were up now” (for example, yesterday’s 8th inning). Isn’t it time to ditch the idea of having a sub-par hitter in the 2nd spot? If Mauer comes up sooner, it changes how the opponents pitch Span, and we don’t have a “weak spot” for their pitcher to aim for. Don’t get me wrong - I like Tolbert, just not in critical situations at this stage in his career. Gardy may make a good point, but I really don’t like hearing Gardy grouse about how a raw rookie didn’t perform well in a tight game in the late innings in Yankee Stadium - what do you expect!!?? Isn’t that the VERY REASON we like to have veterans in those situations?
It wouldn’t be a problem if he used harris to PH in crucial situations…but apparently that will never happen. Let’s see, a guy hitting under .200, or a professional hitter….hmmmmm.
what we have been watching is a young and talented twins team up against the phenomena called the yankees and they are flat out psyched out…gardy needs to have a “Hoosier” moment with these guys, and try and pull this last one out..a win tonite on national tv would do wonders for their mental state….and this bullpen needs immediate, emergency surgery….lose crain, ayala, and maybe breslow…and if i were in charge i may be willing to go find a veteran starter to help out and maybe use one of the starters out of the pen for awhile-but right now bill smith needs to pull a couple of flame throwers from somewhere- maybe henn can be a blessing…lets hope
To blame losses on a couple of times when batters should have taken the pitch is ridiculous.
The Twins had a lot of chances to blow every game wide open. Instead, they were horrible with RISP.
Pointing out a couple of bad at bats by a couple of young players is bad managing, especially with all of the other scoring chances the Twins had.
“Pointing out a couple of bad at bats by a couple of young players is bad managing, especially with all of the other scoring chances the Twins had.”
Very good point.
What about the bad baserunning by a certain veteran?
shhh, that veteran can do no wrong…ohh wait I know exactly who and what you are talking about. 
The only time I recall Gomez trying to steal 3rd was on a double steal. The guy at first was stealing too, so I don’t think it was his decision.
it’s the old fool me once … gardy has to take charge, this team is not discplined in it’s at bats or baserunning. if the coaches don’t control the play it will continue. isn’t it the managers and coaches job to make sure these guys know what is expected? take control gardy and stop blaming everyone else the buck stops with you!
span lf
harris 2b
mauer c
morneau 1b
crede 3b
kubel rf
morales dh
tolbet 2b
gomez cf
hopefully young returns soon and its probably time to find out if casilla can rebound with a new found attitude and hustle….too much talent on this team to struggle so much, especially on the road…just get this damn bullpen strengthened…..
Blake is right, you can’t just put blame on Gomez and Tolbert (although they were awful), but Cuddyer, Kubel, Punto, and Buscher were equally terrible with runners on… Mauer and Morneau were the only ones to show up all 3 games (Span was on base but his gaffe in the field was a stupid one)…
Ayala = another $1.3M dollar mistake, good job Mr. Smith.
Henn = not going to do much I dont think as long as Crain, Breslow, and Dickey continue to be inconsistent… they need to look at bringing up Slama and/or Delaney from AA (no matter how much it goes against the Twins way!)… Do we still have Brian Duensing? why not him too?
Can’t get any worse with late inning options…
I’ve always supported Gardy except in one area,safety squeeze.With one out,runner on third,the game on the line,try it from time to time.Over the past five years in similar situations,trying a safety squeeze would have won us 4-5 more games.In the ALC,were every game counts so much because there’s no dominant team,that’s a big deal.Bremer said the infield grass at the new stadium was thick.Saturday’s game should have never gone to extra innings,to be won by a walk off by the roids cheater,if we would have tried a safety squeeze in the eighth with the score tied,we would have won.We can’t throw away winnable games.
This calling out of young guys bit goes back to TK. Problem is, the vets make mistakes too and are never called out. Certain vets make consistant mistakes that maybe a calling out would help.
Gardy has failed to carry on the “Twin’s way” since taking over except for losing to the Big Boys Twins have relied on starting pitching,bullpen, and great fundamentals - when 2 of the 3 aren’t there this team doesn’t have an offense to make up the difference
AaronK: Gomez tried to steal 3rd on Sunday, but Span fouled that pitch off. Lucky too, because he was dead in the water.
Was there any doubt on Sunday when the lineup card was announced that the Twins would fail to score more than two runs? Tolbert, Buscher, Punto, Gomez? What’s their combined batting average? .200?
FIRE: I was also referring to the Twins not relying on their young talent in the minors… when you look at teams like the Tigers who are having a 19 yr old in the starting rotation (and doing well), the Twins are unwilling to do such things, and Delaney and Slama are both 24/25 yrs old… it’s not like they are young guys anymore. We obviously are not addressing our needs from Free Agents because the temporary band aids aren’t working…
GOGO had 2 hits Sunday… if Gardy would play him consistently and put Magic Man on the bench the DEF and hitting would improve
One nice thing, though, is Mijares. He came in during consecutive games and got the job done.
There were a lot of positives to take from the NY series. Yes, the Twins were horrible with RISP…but, the Yankees also know they were lucky to get a couple of those wins.
The Twins starting pitching was good. Unfortunately, the bullpen has been hard used due to lack of starting pitching early in the season.
Things will even out, though. They always do.
…and haven’t worked for a few years now… everyone we’ve brought in hasn’t lasted or remained with the team (I hope this will be different with Crede) but the other signings have been awful… all the while we watch the Royals and Rays pick up relievers that are worth a dam.
Yep, it’s just frustrating, and I’m sure the players are just as frustrated as us fans (or more)… it’s tough to see your team lose when the pitching effort was there and you couldn’t get the 1 hit to put you over and nail down a win… it would have been nice to at least split the series with the way the games were played out…
At least we dont go back to NY this season
To take this in a different direction, I think that the Twins are generally not aggressive enough in hitters counts, especially 2-0 and 3-1. A polished, proffessional hitter should be licking his chops in those situations, but most importantly looking for a pitch in their “wheelhouse.” I have noticed that Cuddyer is an example of a hitter who is too timid in those situations. Having said that, giving someone like Gomez the take sign on 2-0 when a walk is needed makes perfect sense.
It’s really nice to see the manager blame the loss on a player but take little responsibility for his own actions.What a joke.If Gardenhire wants to start publically blaming player for loses he better not stop at the young inexperienced guys.Cuddyers baserunning 101 mistake was every bit as costly,and as mentioned,the clutch hitting yesterday was a team wide problem not speciffic to one or two at bats.
One other thing I’ll mention is the Managers body language in the dug out.It seemed every time the Twins made a mistake this weekend the cameras would shift to Gardy,who would almost on cue,shake his head,look down at the dugout floor,and mutter to himself like he couldn’t believe it’s happening.The players take their cue from the Manager,and Gardenhires “here we go again” attitude isn’t lost on the players.
Then he takes the approach to the press with the “I guess we’ll have to start putting a leash on these guys”. Isn’t that his job? If he wants the hitter to take a pitch,give the hitter the damn take sign,don’t go after him after the fact.
Gardenhire’s “we get after it” and “we battled out tails off” approach has lost it’s charm along time ago with alot of fans.But one must wonder if his message and approach to the players isn’t starting to fall on a few deaf ears in the clubhouse as well.
The one constant in the Twins’ decade-long depantsing at Yankee Stadium has been Ron Gardenhire. It’s gone on too long to be a fluke.
Twins had leads in these games so while I don’t blame it all on pitcher I do think that they should be able to pitch better to hold leads. I mean yesterday we were up 2-o and Slowey immediately give that up.
Not sure Tolbert can handle the 2-hole with his inexperience. Might be time to move Mauer to the second spot and that way Justin is guaranteed to bat in the first inning. Assuming Kubel bats behind Morneau in the clean up spot, the only problem is that’s four lefties in a row for some opposing manager to match up against late in games. I hope Harris gets a shot at Pettite tonight batting second and playing SS. Tolbert can bat 8th at 2B with Gomez 9th in CF.
I know we are only supposed to focus on minutiae and the like on the Twins blogs, but it these three games (and many others) illustrate the larger point perfectly. The Twins are nevr go to win anything meaningful (sorry, AL Central doesn’t count) because they are, and it saddens me to say this, a bunch of pussies. They have no guts and no swagger whatsoever. They go into Yankee Stadium (old or new) and they go into Fenway and they act like they are just happy to be on the same field with those teams. They remind me of the North Stars that year when somebody challenged their whole bench to a fight and nobody moved. That’s the type of team the Twins are.
It starts with Gardy, right down to Jesse Crain who wets his pants when he’s out there in the clutch, to LNP starting at shortstop, to our two silent superstars. What this team needs more than anything else is a Dan Gladden type (but please don’t make any more trades Bill Smith, because we can’t afford to give up Mauer, Morneau, and Nathan for a utility infielder). He completely changed the way the Twins played when he arrived and brought them the swagger. What I wouldn’t give to see someone on this team go in hard and break up a double play, or something that would show that they have a pulse. Sorry to have interrupted the discussion with the hard facts about this team.
time to get gomez back in the lineup on a full time basis, hitting in the 9 hole- need to start using the twins speed to generate runs-and learning to use the bunt properly…as the twins are just embarassing when it comes to bunting, but i would think they could change that…if they could do a few things like that and get new blood in the bullpen, things could be pretty nice by the all=star break
“”"Things will even out, though. They always do.”"”
They do indeed….we came back and snoosed a sweep from the Tiggers, Yankees came back and beat us…. Things even out, but we forget last week when we did it. Short memories.
bat Delmon at 2. Not a very ideal fit but as an all average, no power guy, at least he gets on base somewhat.
I think the Twins should be quick to bring back Casilla if Tolbert doesn;t hit better. Hopefully lesson learned.
DrDon, I give them credit for sweeping the Tigers, but how can you say we have short memories when the Twins have been getting beat at Yankee Stadium for nearly 10 years?
[…] Around the Majors – […]
show the twins the move “hoosiers” before the game tonite….talk about desperation, but what the hell…we need wins
kitty kaat,
i wouldn’t worry about the 2 silent stars. They don’t shrink from the pressure themsleves and they do work hard running out balls, plays like Mauer’s yesterday. It would help to have a fiery guy but i wouldn’t worry about the 2 stars. I’d worry about the bulk of the other 23 guys.
Man, Gomez is becoming the new Punto…Hardly a positive word about the kid these days it seems. He had 2 hits yesterday, and was a threat on the basebath that rattled Burnett, to the point where he walked Punto.
I think people are expecting him to emerge into the stud people project him to be overnight. He is improving, but will take time.
It’s not like the Front Office has adequately equipped this team for an immediate World Series run (this bullpen will soon become a joke on “The Tonight Show”. So, why no patience with Gomez? He adds a spark and toughness to this team.
AMEN kitty kaat,AMEN!The managers response the first two nights was typical.”it was a close ball,game,we had our chances,just couldn’t seem to get the big hit,or big out when we needed it” Blah,Blah,Blah.I know the Twins preach the even keel approach,but every once in awhile You need to Stand up,and say enough.But to be honest Gardenhire looks as scared at Yankee Stadium as any of the players.Believe me HE knows what his record there i
Agreed Shawn. Hard to know how much else those two guys could do. Imagine this team without them!
DrDon - Twin’s lose will regularity (concept you know quite well)
in NY and on the road though
Twin’s finished .500 on the road in 2002
3 games over .500 in 2003,2006
5 games over .500 in 2004
3 games under .500 in 2005
5 games under .500 in 2007
12 games under .500 in 2008!!
so not as bad as I thought
Thanks, Fire, for the stats on Twins records on the road over the years. Not as bad as I thought either.
Kitty’s idea sounds good on paper, but it never works. I can’t see where the Yanks intimidated us, and they took three. Gotta remember we were leading or very close in all three games but they had the HUGE homefield advantage of the last at bat.
I am not a Gardy basher, but I don’t like him calling on Tolbert, a .200 hitter, when, as others pointed out, in that situation he shouldn’t be there in the first place. Harris should have been pinch hitting. May be is what the the psicologist call “projection”?
1. The manager is supposed to manage his team which means giving the take sign when needed. Why let a young player make that decision on a 2-0 count with the bases loaded?
2. Did you notice the Yankees were playing small ball as early as the 4th inning? Meanwhile Gardy was doing nothing.
3. Blame yesterday’s game on Gardy since he forgot his role - manage the game.
A lot of small ball went away with Tom Kelly’s retirement. Today’s Twins are way too undisciplined at the plate compared to a TK team.
Will Gomez get a follow up start after getting 2 hits? You would think so…he needs a chance to get going. Sitting him again makes it hard to get in a roll.
How long does it take before M&M realize how many HR’s they would have in Yankee stadium and the $ signs they would make there? As cheap as the Twins are I am surprised they haven’t talked to the Yankees about Mauer as they would give anything for him as would the Red Sox with Varitek not getting any younger. Much like Santana if that happend Billy Boy would screw it up. Paying Santana and Hunter would sure have helped right now. Paying Cuddyer and Punto is proving to be a big waste of $’s.
We listened to the game driving home from Maryland on Sunday. The Yank announcers pointed out that the # 2 hitters in the Twins lineups were 0 for 19 and often came up with RISP.
You can’t bat a sub-.200 hitter in the # two hole. It’s maybe time to play Harris fulltime, even though he was Ofor on Saturday.
Also, Crain needs to go the 3A where he can get in more innings to work out whatever is/are his issue(s).
Bad enough being in the Stadium on Friday night to see Nathan’s meltdown. I was getting ready to call Doc Don, when Cabrera bloop is liner to left center.
Wouldn’t it have been nice if those times Tolbert came up in an RBI situation, it was Mauer instead?
Why is Tolbert hitting 2nd again?
Twin’s under TK went
2 - 1 in NY in 2001
3 - 3 in NY in 2000
2 - 2 in NY in 1999
1 - 5 in NY in 1998
2 - 3 in NY in 1997
From yesterday’s blog:
USAFChief says:
May 17th, 2009 at 2:48 pm
Bad luck on Span’s grounder, but Tolbert should be taking there 2-0.
USAFChief says:
May 17th, 2009 at 3:31 pm
2-0 Gomez. You got yourself out there.
Gardy’s right. I thought the exact same things watching the game yesterday.
That being said…:
1. Why is Matt Tolbert hitting second in the lineup, Gardy? Twins hitters in the 2 hole this season have combined to hit .189/.256/.245. That’s right, Twins fans. The ‘hitters’ directly in front of Joe Mauer and Justin Morneau have gotten on base this year at a .256 clip. And yet we just keep running them out there and watch them chew up outs–or make them on purpose with sac bunts IN THE FIRST INNING–right in front of our 3 best hitters. I realize your choices are limited, but there is no law that says you have to put a crappy, scrappy middle infielder in the 2 hole, Ron.
2. If you can’t trust your players to understand the game, and when to swing at certain pitches and when NOT to swing, what the heck is your third base coach for? Shagging foul grounders down the line? Give someone a take sign ferpetesake. Take control of the game. MANAGE, rather than watch.
3. What’s the point of bringing this up to the press? Wouldn’t you be better served talking about this behind closed doors to the players, and manning up in front of the press to take some heat off those young players?
Ben W, That is a great question. Why is Matt Tolbert hitting 2nd.
My guess is that Mauer will be a Red Sox. Seems like a better fit in Boston. But it should be interesting to sit back and watch the bidding war between them and Yanks.
But you can bet the folks in New York this weekend were literally salivating at the thought of him in pinstripes.
It seems like Tolbert came up in A LOT of key spots this weekend and I didn’t see him come through one time. When you’ve got a scorching hot Mauer behind you they’re going to throw fastballs and you have to do something with it. I can’t believe I’m saying this but Punto is better at the plate than Tolbert. For someone who supposed to set the table he doesn’t get on base nearly enough.
Tom, I made that point on yesterday’s game article, and I agree with you. As much as I couldn’t care less that Torii Hunter left, he made a great point when he got to LA (of A) and told the media that it was nice to be on a team that was willing to bring in talent to get better.
Mauer, Morneau, and even Kubel are quality players, with the first two being some of the best in the game in their position. I would imagine their goal, like most players’, is to win a championship, and if the Twins are too cheap to bring in the help to do so, they might be forced to seek that ring elsewhere. I would not blame them either if this organization does not start committing to winning.
Joe 1st, as I was watching that game, in the 9th with Nathan in, I was looking forward to a win AND a call, but to no avail, neither thing worked out this time…. Maybe another time, and thanks for thinking of me, as I thought of you at that game. Tough loss. Tonight’s a new night, and I will be watching again.
Chief,
Excellent post…Gardy and his crew are responsible for those poor decisions. If you want to give the players the choice then you need to be responsible when they make the wrong decision.
My ideal lineup:
Span
Mauer
Kubel/D Young
Morneau
D Young/Cuddyer (though I wish he would be traded)
Crede
Harris
Gomez
Punto/Tolbert
I would slide the lineup up and put Tolbert at the bottom. If you don’t want to sled the lineup, even Gomez is a better option at #2. That is saying much more about Tolbert then it is Gomez. Gomez really has no business being in that spot either.
Pro from Dover(10:10), Excellent Post! To call out Gomez (two hits) and Tolbert (one hit and the only rbi we had) while not mentioning others is gutless and stupid on Gardy’s part. If you’re the manager, lead your team. Take the onus of making the decision off the shoulders of the youngsters. And don’t tell your players that it will take a “mistake free”, near-perfect performance to beat the other team. You are doomed to fail before you even start the game.
Another thing I don’t understand is when Gardy plays Punto and Tolbert every day because defense up the middle is more important than even a semblance of offense. If that’s the case, why doesn’t Gomez start every day? He’s no worse at the dish than either of those two and he’s arguably the best defensive CF in the game.
Wow, Bartlett has a .970 OPS this year. I was always a huge Bartlett fan…man do I miss him on this team.
ideal situation is for Casilla to be recalled from Minors and be the #2 hitter he was last year
If Casilla can tear it up another week or two, I’d bring him back. Of course, his mental issues need to be fixed as well or we’ll end up in the same scenario the next time he’s in a bit of a slump. If he’s deemed ready, call him up in a few weeks.
I like Alexi, but even last year he didn’t fit in the #2 spot imo. His OBP was only .333
New York aside, am I the only one who’s noticed that we’ve only managed to win 4 games on the road? That has got to be some record.
Union-
The bad road play seems to be the trend the last few years. Twins are solid at home, can’t win against the worst of them on the road.
A couple of commenters mentioned Mauer and Morny in Yankee pinstripes. They would have to be called the J&J boys.
This matter needed to be cleared up.
Patrick, Tolbert had the 1 hit with RISP yesterday with an RBI single.
It’s still ridiculous to bat him in front of Mauer and Morneau.
“am I the only one who’s noticed that we’ve only managed to win 4 games on the road?”
They are an indoor team.
They should be called the Minnesota Poodles.
Didnt Harris get the start at 2B on saturday and went 0 for 6.
Harris has a .337 OBP with limited ABs he seems to be the natural #2 if Casilla doesn’t get it together,
Harris currently ranks 8th on team behind Mauer,Morneau,Morales,Span,Kubel,Butcher,CUDDY!
“Didnt Harris get the start at 2B on saturday and went 0 for 6.”
Yes.
Which proves what?
ideal situation is for Casilla to be recalled from Minors and be the #2 hitter he was last year
That’s not ideal either. Casilla wasn’t that good last year.
The ideal situation would have been for Bill Smith and or the Pohlads to man up and have Orlando Hudson manning second base and hitting second.
Along with Rafael Furcal at short and possibly Casey Blake at first, along with 2 real late inning relievers in the bullpen.
Could have been done for a price tag within what should have been the Twins 2009 budget.
Blake at third, of course.
mj1
Love your lineup! Especially that we forego the DH and have two playes playing 2b. Your awesome!
Carl Harris only has 76 ABs he can go 3-3 and raise his average 30 points right now.. settle he is proven to be a good professional hitter
sy that proves he can’t field his position
wonder if Crede playing this weekend would have helped. He has WS winner experience. He has a low average but seems to clutch up.
Casey Blake at first?
Hoo boy, one more loss like that tonight and it’ll be torch’n'pitchfork time.
This calling out of young guys bit goes back to TK. Problem is, the vets make mistakes too and are never called out.
yeap. Cuddaver had the worse series as far as Twins’ players go, left 15 men on base and got himself out twice with stupid baserunning and Gomez and Tolbert are the problems now?
Casey Blake at first?
somewhere Todd Walker is smiling
Blake was not going to get a 3-yr-deal here.
The Twins would rather have Crede for one year.
But I thought Cuddyer was heating up and was no longer an issue thrylos?? I thought he was red hot.
Rafael Furcal at SS would have meant that Gardy would be forced to sleep alone on the road.
While I agree that Tolbert should not be hitting 2nd, I find it ironic that in that 1-25 with risp, Tolbert drove in the 1 run.
DG
Blake was not going to get a 3-yr-deal here.
The Twins would rather have Crede for one year.
The question is, why?
Crede at third was a nice fallback position, and I’m glad the Twins signed him. But he comes with his own set of problems, mainly his back is always going to be a question, and what do the Twins do next year?
I would have been fine with Crede–I am fine with Crede–had the Twins done at least one legit move to upgrade the middle infield and the bullpen.
Cuddyer was heating up, but like the weather here in NY today, he has cooled off again.
Also, it seems that ARod intimidates all of the Twins pitchers, with the exception of Liriano k’ing him with less than two outs and the bases either loaded or at least a runner on third.
Joe,
Blackburn didn’t have any problem with A-rod. All the Yankees fans in my area were suggesting he get back on the roids.
Shame on you jon, but I didn’t think timely hitting was our problem over the weekend. Even Joe blew a game. I just kind of thought if we score eleven they would have scored twelve.
Harris flat needs to be in the line-up hitting second every day at least until Casilla comes back. I don’t care if it’s half the time at SS and half the time at 2nd if Gardy can’t bring himself to bench Punto, but he needs to play. This line-up simply cannot drag two dead-weight spots especially with Gomez playing every day for now.
Frankly, it would make the most sense to name Harris your every day SS and platoon Punto and Tolbert at 2B and batting 9th. Will Gardy do it? Even he will eventually have to concede Punto cannot play ever day hitting sub-.200. In 2007 we frankly didn’t have any viable alternative to Punto playing most days (L-Rod? please). Now we do.
Blackie and Slowey pitched great games I thought, I don’t think either of them had an issue with A-Rod, however I do agree to some extent that maybe other pitchers did
You’er right, Shawn, but the hitters need to play less tentative and try to pile on the runs.
During Friday’s night game (yes, I wore my John Deere cap), in the 7th inning, the scoreboard showed a stat reading that that Yanks are 12 and 0 when holding the opposition to 3 or fewer runs.
When the Twins scored the 4th run, I asked my friend what’s the Yank’s record when holding the opposition to 4 or fewer runs.
After the Twins scored the 4th run, the attitude seemed to be, ‘Well, we’re okay, b/c Joe will come in and finish it.’
As my friend responded to my comment early in the game that I hoped we’d see Nathan tonight, “I hope we don’t need Nathan to seal this win.” It wasn’t lack of confidence in Nathan, it’s just that the Twins really need to pile it on the Yanks in a game. For gosh sake, the Yanks pitching isn’t good. Why can’t the Twins pile it on the Yank staff?
What’s the point of bringing this up to the press?
Isn’t one of the complaints people had that Gardy wasn’t being asked tough questions.
Well, “Why was Tolbert swinging on 2-0?” seems like a good question to ask.
Actually TK very seldom called out individual players in the press.If players made the same mistake over and over he simply got rid if them.He had that much clout.He disliked dealing with the media and didn’t want to give them any fodder.The currrent manager never met a microphone or notepad he didn’t like,but he’s Jekel and Hyde.When the team wins he trys to be funny and quotable.When they lose,he blames others,but never seems to look in the mirror.
The National perception of “Twins baseball”,Doing the little things and not beating yourself,goes back to the respect Kelly had throughout baseball,but it is persception over reality with the current manager.
Gardenhire gets all the credit for his four Division titles,but the first three were won by players who came up and learned “Twins baseball” during Kellys tenure.
No, the tough question would be why in God’s Name is Tolbert batting 2nd to begin with.
Well, let’s get geared up for tonight:
The Twins will pile it on the Yankees,
Have’em crying in their hankies.
After the M’s will go deep,
The Yankees will sleep.
GO TWINS!
T
Was the question asked or did Gardy just bring it up?
The Twins getting good in 2002 was a total accident. Our lame front office and ownership kept letting good talent leave and going the cheap route of bringing new guys up. Well eventually the talent that was brought up was good enough to win a division. Unfortunately, that solidified our ownership into believing they don’t need to spend any money.
I’m not upset at all by the three losses. Three games in which the Twins got beat by the home team’s final at-bats. Close games that could have gone either way. Get in enough games like that and things will even themselves out over time. Starting pitching was decent and there were some good bullpen performances.
There were some negatives. Span wasn’t any great improvement over Delmon in left and his arm is suspect. And since Kubel hit his last grad slam earlier in the year, how many times has he come up with the bases loaded and not gotten in a runner?
Casilla is doing well in AAA. As expected, I think of his problems are just mental, and a little kick-start has him looking like he belongs in the majors again. I wouldn’t wait that long to recall him; from what I have seen of Tolbert and Harris, I don’t like either of them in the 2-spot.
Fire
Tolbert has less than 40 ab’s he can go 3 for 3 and raise his average 60 points. Tolbert batted .283 last year Hariis .265. Plus Tolbert is a switch hitter, faster, draws more walks and is much more valuable on defense.
Pro Dover,
TK in the mid/late 90s often ripped the young guys in the press. Todd Walker especially.
remember how the media was all over the cuddy is hot item?
his last rbi was last sunday and he is hitting .167 in his last seven games and has left 23 runners on base.
not really what should be expected out of a team leader, veteran who is very highly paid.
i won’t bring up the baserunning, but on the positive side he has walked several times.
other than one hot week he has been a major weak spot, imo.
It’s hard to fault Tolbert,who is nothing more than a younger version of what Punto should be,a utility player.The Twins secondbaseman of the future might be in AA,Brian Dinkelman.Maybe Lexi needs to move back to his natural postion of SS.
Shawn,
I remember when Joe Mays had his first success with the Twins and people were excited about it. TK publicly belittled his accomplishments.
My father had two favorite sayings:
1. Make hay while the sun shines.
2. Trade Cuddyer while he’s hot.
[…] Gardenhire complained after Sunday’s game about the Twins swinging at bad 2-0 pitches: In the eighth inning, the Twins had the bases loaded with two outs when journeyman reliever Brett […]
If the Twins can trade Cuddy or someone else this year, and it’s looking more and more like they won’t pull it off for anyone decent, I hope they package Gomez. Hopefully some other team will fall in love with his speed and “tools” and recognize his “upside.” They can have it.
Isn’t one of the complaints people had that Gardy wasn’t being asked tough questions.
Well, “Why was Tolbert swinging on 2-0?” seems like a good question to ask.
Was Gardy asked, or did he volunteer it?
In any case, IMO that’s not a tough question, or at least not a tough question that he should answer. He should deal with those types of issues (individual player performance) privately. He should be talking about HIS role in the matter.
Tough questions would include:
Why is Punto playing almost every day?
Why have you let the 2 hole compile a line of .187/.256/.245 this year? Do you even know what the players you’ve put in the 2 hole this year are ‘hitting?’
Do you think it’s good strategy to waste outs by sac bunting early in the game? As early as the first inning?
Do you give players the take sign? If not, why? Have you at least discussed your thoughts on situations where, for a guy with limited offensive skills, you’d expect them to make the pitcher throw a strike or two, or when to be aggressive? If not, why?
Those are things Gardy has direct control over, and should therefore be available to answer for.
Shawn
I don’t remember Kelly speciffically ripping Walker,I could be wrong.He simply didn’t play him as much as most people thought he should,and Walker never did develope into the “superstar” the Twins front office hyped him to be.
I will say that TK didn’t like the college boys,but he made few errors in judgement about talent,and was great at putting players in postions to excel rather than putting someone in and expecting them to play over their heads.I’ll admit I have always been a Kelly fan.I wish he’d come out of retirement to manage this bunch!!
Sorry folks, forgot to turn off the bold.
I miss Tom Kelly greatly. Great manager, taught great fundamentals, and did the best he could with terrible ownership trying to sell his team away.
Kelly must still be in his early to mid-fifties. Too bad he walked away from managing.
The points made about the manger controlling the game are very relevant. Gardy appears to be a good manager for the long haul of the season in working with his players. But if you are looking for a manager to really manage the game, he is not your guy. He lets the players play without any real guidelines beyond “playing your tail off.” If your team is not hitting with RISP you have to do other things to score runs-”manufacture” Tony LaRussa will win games with squeeze plays and does get the most out of his team. “The Twins Way” is to sit around and wait for the big hit. If it doesn’t happen you are SOL. Is that run production?
If Tom Kelly is the answer, what the hell was the question?
I don’t think Kelly could/would tolerate the modern baseball player much like why Bud Grant would never coach the Vikes again after 1985
The problem is not Punto, Tolbert or Harris period. Our bullpen SUCKS, its hard to blame anyone when the ball is hit over the fence to end the game. Tolbert hitting in the 2 spot had nothing to do with these last three games and us losing.
Gardy just doesn’t get it. He’s finally started to criticize our bullpen, yet continues to pull pitchers out after the magical 100-pitch mark. If they’re on a roll and feel fine, keep them in, and keep the ‘pen guys in the ‘pen.
Fire,
“I don’t think Kelly could/would tolerate the modern baseball player”
Not a problem.
The Twins have no “modern baseball players”.
sane,
Good one.
“”"sane says:
May 18th, 2009 at 12:20 pm
Fire,
“I don’t think Kelly could/would tolerate the modern baseball player”
Not a problem.
The Twins have no “modern baseball players”.”"”
You are right sane. All of the “modern baseball players” are on the Strib blogs with all of the solutions.
JJ,
If the Twins were getting production out of the # 2 spot, the BP would be less of an issue; several potential rallies died when Tolbert batted on Friday and Sunday.
Yes, Harris took the collar on Saturday, but if he were playing everyday, his average, OPS, & OBS indicate that he’d be a consistent producer; maybe even improve his current stats, b/c he is playing everyday.
All of the “modern baseball players” are on the Strib blogs with all of the solutions.
And it’s about damn time you acknowledged that Doc!
if only the beat writers would ask the manager the tough questions, he’d give thoughful, insightful answers? ain’t as easy as it might seem.
tom kelly hated to be questioned, much less challenged, by reporters. he could become surly, snarky and defensive in a heartbeat. ask him a question he didn’t like and he might get out from behind his desk and, voice dripping with sarcasm, say “you can do better? maybe you should sit here” … or find any number of other ways to shut the questioner down — including the ol’ reliable stare down.
managers have ways of avoiding questions they don’t want to be asked.
Span is 1 for 11 in the series and 0 for his last 9 not exactly ideal numbers for our leadoff man either. He and Harris went o for 11 saturday and we still had a chance to win the game.
WJ, I am not too old to recognize where all of the talent is, and I finally came to grips with it and accepted it.
Gardy just doesn’t get it. He’s finally started to criticize our bullpen, yet continues to pull pitchers out after the magical 100-pitch mark. If they’re on a roll and feel fine, keep them in, and keep the ‘pen guys in the ‘pen.
The answer isn’t to wear out your starters, or leave them in the game when they should be pulled.
The answer is to have more than one or two pitchers you trust to bring into a close game.
Twins relievers have pitched the fourth fewest innings in the league, despite playing one or two more games than most other teams and playing several extra inning games already.
Span is 1 for 11 in the series and 0 for his last 9 not exactly ideal numbers for our leadoff man either.
Not to mention two terrible plays in the field that would have likely allowed us to win both games if they were made.
mickey mental
That doesn’t mean the questions still shouldn’t be asked.Gardenhire also gets testy at the mire suggestion of fault on his part.IMO that’s part of being a manager, dealing with the media.It was Kelly’s biggest fault.Gardenhire loves the media when things are going well,because its a way to pat himself on the back.Kelly was at least consistant,he was always an ass.
Chief,
“Twins relievers have pitched the fourth fewest innings in the league”
How do they rank in number of appearances?
Or (like last year) are they pitching too often, rather than too long?
Was Gardy asked, or did he volunteer it?
Well, that is something we won’t know unless the Strib posts a transcript of the entire conversation.
I think sometimes people get upset with Gardy for “calling out” one guy, but not another…and fail to realize that what likely happened is that Gardy was asked a question about said player and answered it.
Also, I think this whole entry by JoeC is a good indication of what happened with Tolbert. From the looks of things Gardy didn’t put up the take sign because he was confident in Tolbert to recognize that situation himself. From the sounds of things, Gardy has lost that confidence.
Span did not have a good series. Maybe the ball DID take a crazy bounce, leading to the inside-the-park home run, but his throw home yesterday was horrendous. With Span, though, it’s easy to forget that he is not the seasoned veteran he usually plays like. He’s bound to make some mistakes along the way. His baserunning needs improvement too.
but if he were playing everyday, his average, OPS, & OBS indicate that he’d be a consistent producer; maybe even improve his current stats, b/c he is playing everyday.
One thing that amazes me about the Twins is how they are chock full of players that will absolutely suck if they are forced to play a bench role vs. being a starter.
To me that’s a bigger concern than any singular performance. How are the Twins ever going to build a bench if Harris, Tolbert, Casilla, Gomez, Young, etc…struggle without regular starts?
Jon- The answer is Tom Kelly and the question is, “Who is the only Twins manager to win a World Series, two in fact?”
PS: Your Gardy-Punto joke was stupid. Homophobia isn’t funny. Find another way to make your excellent point that Punto should not be in the line up. Thanks.
I’m done arguing that Harris should be an everyday player, because everytime I do that, he seems to go out and go hitless for 10-12 at-bats.
“That doesn’t mean the questions still shouldn’t be asked.”
well, my point is that the questions probably ARE being asked…
How do they rank in number of appearances?
Or (like last year) are they pitching too often, rather than too long?
Twins are 7th in the AL in number of relief appearances (106 appearances in 38 games). Boston has the most (116 appearances in 38 games), Texas the fewest (90 in 37 games.)
you can’t have it both ways T.You say unless we have a transcript of the interview we don’t know the full extent of the conversation.You then go onto say what “likely” happened,when in fact that is simply your opinion of what took place,which we are apparently supposed to take as the gospil.It’s all open to debate.
The question remains to me,if Garenhire talked to Tolbert the day before about being agressive,he shouldn’t jump on him for being agressive only when he fails.If the Manager wanted a rookie to take a pitch he should have given him the take sign.I’d be willing to bet Tolbert took a look at the thirdbase coach before he swung at that pitch.If he didn’t,then the manager has a beef.
Chief,
Thanks.
It looks like the bullpen is NOT being overworked.
An alternate excuse will have to be used.
Here’s another thing that bugs me…
We often hear on this board that Bill Smith can’t be honest and forthright about trade targets, free agent signings, etc. because other GMs will then jack up the price because they know what the Twins want.
Personally, I think that’s somewhat ridiculous, because I doubt ‘what the Twins need’ is news to any other GM, or at the very least WON’T be news once Smith calls to say “is so-and-so available?”
However, I absolutely HATE Gardenhire telling the opposition he’s EVER going to give a player the take sign.
That, indeed, is giving away valuable tactical information, IMO.
An alternate excuse will have to be used.
Does “several of them aren’t real good” work for ya? 
“”"sane says:
May 18th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
Chief,
Thanks.
It looks like the bullpen is NOT being overworked.
An alternate excuse will have to be used.”"”
alternate excuse… Is it possible that, except for a couple of guys, the Twins just have at best a mediocre team????
overmatched not overworked.
Our starters are pitching into later innings then most of the MLB. One question. Does Tony Kornhusker on MNF or LaPanta have worse looking hair on a big screen high def TV???
I can’t figure out Gardy’s aversion to bunting.
A take sign on a 2-0 count is VERY SELDOM given (or looked for)
Gardy is saying that the pitch should be taken (by batter’s decision) UNLESS IT IS A FASTBALL DOWN MAIN STREET.
Denying professional hitters the chance to rip a 2-0 cookie, is the LAST RESORT, used only when a hitter appears to have no concept of how to recognize what is (and what is not) a cookie.
We need new middle relievers. Does anyone know if Neshek will ever be back? How long has he been away from the Twins?
When is Neshek going to surface again?
since Tolbert popped the pitchup he either didn’t know what a cookie was or couldn’t handle one.If the Manager brings up giving the take sign after the hitter fails, it becomes a valid question as to why it wasn’t given in the first place.
The thing is I thought Gomez swung at a good pitch on his 2-0 count. He just popped it up. With that being said…I would have preferred hie took a strike first.
jimmy, it’s Tony “Davey Crockett” LaPanta, all the way. At least Korny is comfortable with being bald.
Our defense has kept us in all three Yankee games. Bottom line is we have not hit with RISP. We have the best defense in the AL no doubt.
Pro,
Swinging and missing at (or popping up)a 2-0 cookie is excusable. Everyone has done it.
Swinging at a lousy or nasty pitch on 2-0 is what frustrates coaches.
Twins need someone more productive in the 2 spot. All weekend it felt like whoever was in front of Mauer was killing our inning. The Twins 2 spot went 1-15 while stranding 15 runners against the Yankees so far this series. Mauer and Morneau are killing the ball right now but theres no one on when they are batting.
M & M boys had a great weekend at the plate.
gotta call them J&J at yankee stadium jimmy
anyone notice cuddaver had a few problems at the plate this weekend.
I was quite impressed at the power M & M displayed. Slowey looked great to me as well. Our bullpen cost us 3 games in a row I figure. We should get looking at whom may be available.
When is Neshek going to surface again?
2010
Cuddy’s been having a few problems at the plate since he signed his extension.
“”"Larry says:
May 18th, 2009 at 1:17 pm
Twins need someone more productive in the 2 spot.”"”
Very astute observation Larry, none of us had noticed that before.
Ben W:
I heard Kornheiser just quit (fired?) MNF. They signed John Gruden (chucky).
“Swinging and missing at (or popping up)a 2-0 cookie is excusable. Everyone has done it.
Swinging at a lousy or nasty pitch on 2-0 is what frustrates coaches.”
Of course pro managers are more worried about results.
I am more concerned with the process (doing the right thing) regardless of results.
DrDon says:
“alternate excuse… Is it possible that, except for a couple of guys, the Twins just have at best a mediocre team????”
as the record would indicate.
jimmy bee,
re: Neshek:
he wrote the following on his blog yesterday:
I just thought I would give a little update. On my facebook page I’ve been getting a lot of inquiries about when I’m coming back…Well, for those of you that don’t know I will be out all year…well until November is when I will be 100%. I know it sucks…I hate it and want to pitch really really bad but there’s nothing I can do but take things slow and rehab and get back.
Pat’s blog: http://www.eteamz.com/patneshek/
just wanted to say hi guys!
as the record would indicate.
there is an alternative explanation for that: the manager is mediocre…
I just figured it out. We are jinxed because we call our guys the M&M boys. That is sacrilege in New York.
hi trish, about time you came on and added a little class to the blog.
I wonder how well these blogs would have done in say 98-2000?
I wonder how well these blogs would have done in say 98-2000?
About as good as the Pirates’ blogs are doing for a decade now
“there is an alternative explanation for that: the manager is mediocre”
We are only accepting alternative explanations from credible sources.
sane
So you are saying that Gardenhire shouldn’t have to give the take sign (I don’t necessarily disagree)? But the point then remains why he felt the need to bring it up in his discusion of the game.I’m simply saying that if he is upset with Tolbert for swinging he should have told him not to,not wait until he failed and then say “from now on I can’t trust you so i’ll have to give you the sign”.To me Gardenhires comments just come off s trying to cover his own ass.If you disagree so be it.
trish and thry are the only credible sources around here, the rest of us are just bullshippers.
“That is sacrilege in New York.”
@#$%@#$%@#$%@#$% New York!
Is that sacrilegious enough?
I’d talk more but i’m in my may-term class so I shouldn’t type.
DrDon,
the credible sources have blogs…. the rest of us have to do something
Swinging and missing at (or popping up)a 2-0 cookie is excusable. Everyone has done it.
Swinging at a lousy or nasty pitch on 2-0 is what frustrates coaches.
I agree.
IMO, game situation also matters, as does who is at the plate.
I sometimes grow a bit frustrated with Mauer’s ultra-disciplined approach, where he lets a 2-0 fastball, right down the middle, go unmolested with runners on, only to put a pitch at the ankles into play later in the at bat, often right to the second baseman.
But for Matt Tolbert–MATT TOLBERT!–to swing at a questionable 2-0 pitch, with 2 outs, bases loaded, and a shaky looking reliever on the mound late in a tie game, is stupid, and he should know better.
Context matters.
DrDon Sorry to not enlighten the conversation with a dynamite drop in like “snoosed” or one of your other gems you have on the board. For someone who seems to hate bloggers you are on here alot. But the 2 hole is killing us in the lineup and I don’t see why we have Tolbert hitting in it.
trish,
i wish i had internet in college. I had to play tetris on my calculator to pass the time. By the end we had slow dialup, but nothing you could do on a phone.
CRAIN NEEDS TO BE DEMOTED!!!!
BRESLOW NEEDS TO BE CUT ALTOGETHER!!!
Good, sid. Now, tonight we are nationwide on ESPN. Please tell me that Joe Morgan is NOT one of the talking heads. If he is, volume off, and I will watch while listening to John and Glad on the radio.
So you are saying that Gardenhire shouldn’t have to give the take sign (I don’t necessarily disagree)?”
I am saying Gardy would like the hitter to have good enough judgement to take bad 2-0 pitches, and hit good 2-0 pitches on his own.
That way, 2-0 cookies won’t float by unpunished.
If that system doesn’t work, a coach becomes frustrated, because giving a take sign on 2-0 takes away a great opportunity to hit the snot out of the ball.
M&M boys in NY.
If the Yankees announcers call Mauer and Morneau the M&M boys, I would call it respect and not sacrilege.
I can’t wait till Pat Neshek comes back. He is the Twins version of Jeff Nelson when he was with the Yankees. We just now need a Twins version of Mike Stanton.
AYALA SHOULD BE WASHING CARS THIS TIME NEXT WEEK!
jimmy,
the real Mike Stanton is out there, but we don’t want him.
DrDon says:
May 18th, 2009 at 1:35 pm
Good, sid. Now, tonight we are nationwide on ESPN. Please tell me that Joe Morgan is NOT one of the talking heads
Could be worse we could have Bert and Morgan in the booth. I love the circle me Burt sign yesterday. Burt (Bert) got a bit ticked.
Chief
I agree with your point,but Tolbert has only a handfull of ML at bats under his belt.And just because he’s in the majors doesn’t make him a Major Leaguer.I’d have a lot less problem with the whole situation if Gardy hadn’t publically explained the day before Tolberts need to be more agressive.IMO in that situation the Manager needs to Manage,not rely on a young player knowing what to do.
Shawn in Binghamton anything ever become of the huge shooting in Binghamton?
Who had the only Twins hit with runners in scoring position?
Kaci Tolbert
poor baby!
“i wish i had internet in college. I had to play tetris on my calculator to pass the time”
no calculators when i went to college, we had to use a slide rule. no tetris on that!
gobbledygookguy abacus
Harris got a shot playing 2b and hitting 2nd. 0 for 6 I will take Tolberts 1 for 4 rbi and walk. He is the best option at this time unless we move mauer to the 2 spot and bat Tolbert 8
jimmy,
it was just an immigrant who’d been in America 20+ years, thought society was out to get him. Sent a letter claiming what he did. Pretty open and closed really. Sad for the people affected of course but not alot of outlier info.
i’d rather be a poor baby if it meant i got to be younger
Welp just happy you are still out there safe and blogging.
But for Matt Tolbert–MATT TOLBERT!–to swing at a questionable 2-0 pitch, with 2 outs, bases loaded, and a shaky looking reliever on the mound late in a tie game, is stupid, and he should know better.
Context matters.
It does: With Harris and Morales on the bench, Tolbert (who is hitting .179/.283/.231) should have had the bat taken off his hands.
I will be much happier when Crede is back in the lineup. Anyone hear when he will be back in the lineup anyways.
Crede should start tonight
Wonder why Cuddys incapable of sac bunting? He is NOT above bunting as he has VERY average power at best. His limited range in RF , idiotic base running and comical efforts to hit off speed pitches make me sick. Yet Gardy just loves little rosey cheeked Mikey. One slightly above average season is all hes done. He should been sacrificing Fri night………Tolbert and Gomez should NEVER have been swinging away 0/2 on Sunday.
……Tolbert and Gomez should NEVER have been swinging away 0/2 on Sunday….. What?????
oh yeah!! We didn’t have the internet when I went to college and we used computers without monitors (teletype?) think there were called. information was printed on paper and came out like a printer “printing” on paper
SO THAT’S IT !! !
THE EFFING YANKEE ANNOUNCERS ARE JINXING OUR CLUB! ! !
@#$%@#$%@#$%@#$% New York!
(thanks sid, i learned a new word)
Thyrlos Wrong
At that bat Tolbert was 1 for 3 with the teams only Rbi and a walk. Harris went 0 for 6 the day before. No way Harris pinch hits there. He is no longer hitting .350
thrylos98 says:
May 18th, 2009 at 1:51 pm
Crede should start tonight
Thank You very much. Yaaaaaah!!!!!
We should flip flop Cuddy and Crede in the batting order. Cuddy at the plate has been “Cruddy”. I would like to put Crede right before or after Kubel in a similar line up as we had yesterday.
small sample size, harris goes 0-6 so he is junk and tolbert goes 1-4 w/rbi so he’s a good hitter and a run producer?
on april 12 punto was hitting .352 and more than a few on here were bragging him up, how’s that going (.194)today?
cuddy was hot for a week and hit .167 last week. use a larger sample size to make a valid comp. one day, one week doesn’t cut it!! imo.
Tolbert shouldn’t be hitting in the 2 hole I’d much rather have Harris who has a OBP about 50 points higher. What I’d really rather see is Go-GO (also has higher OBP) in front of Mauer so he can see some fastballs. Even Punto would be a better person at that spot in the lineup.
Tolbert has not had enough AB’s for someone to keep bringing up his average. Put it this way he is batting seven points higher than A-ROD.
Kitty Kat:
Jon’s comment on Gardy/Furcal/Punto wasn’t homophobic. You’re, of course, entitled to your opinion, but you’re not the politically correct cop of the board. Jon’s comment is no different than using the phrase ’sleeping with enemy” in reference to any interaction between any persons of either sex or any race or nationality.
Gardy was a short-of-stature, scrappy infielder with the minimum MLB skills to make it to the bigs for a short time, so it’s not unusual that he would favor such players. Punto is such a player.
Whatever is your sexual orientation makes no difference to me, but my opinion is that any attempt to stifle any expression of opinion (”…has no place…”) is a threat to the freedom of all persons.
Jon’s comment was tame and appropriate in its context. But even if it hadn’t been as such, although I might disagree with it, I’d defend to death his right to express it. You wouldn’t so defend anyone’s right to say anything. This is why America’s stature in the world has gone down. If not the US, then who? If not now, when? If not Iraq or Afganistan, then where?
A-Rod - .172/.385/.483
Best .172 batting average I’ve ever seen.
Tolbert has not had enough AB’s for someone to keep bringing up his average.
he had enough at AAA where he hit 0.222/0.300/0.296 with RISP… not exactly great
Larry, now you have offered a solution (at 2:01), and I can’t say that I disagree with your opinion.
Just out of curiosity, why is everyone worried about the offense (specifically Cuddyer)?
Pitching and defense wins Championships (Anybody remember Jack Morris in 1991) and the bullpen keeps blowing leads, and games, time and time again.
We’re scoring runs and have played outstanding defense . . . Why are Crain, Breslow and Ayala still wearing a Twins jersey??????
What was Tolbert’s #’s from last year. Post those Thyrlos.
One more thing, somebody show me a better 3, 4, 5 batting order than the Twins right now? Span is doing great in the leadoff and although Tolbert and Cuddyer aren’t knocking th ecover off the ball they are “holding their own”. I agree that Tolbert needs to be moved down the order but who cares if we continue to have this lousy bullpen!!!
We’re scoring runs
the Twins are ranking 9th out of 14 teams in the AL in runs scored and have scored one more run than the Nationals…
And BTW, no manager should have to give to any hitter a sign on a 2 & 0 count. It’s a hitter’s count, but the pitch still has to be good. According to the Yankee announcers, Tolbert swung at a bad pitch; that’s it.
Of course, the Yankee announcers, John Sterling especially, ain’t a sterling announcer; he forgets that listeners want to know things, such as the count, score, runners on, inning, & etc. So, I’m only relying upon his statement that the pitch would’ve been a ball.
Span hasn’t done crap the last 2 games.
Tolbert 2008:
MLB .283/.322/.389 (123 PA)
AA .250/.263/.304 (57 PA)
Ben D - That’s 2 games . . . Mauer will have 2 bad days too
Yes, of course it’s not the number 2 hitter or hitting in general this year, but, still, you don’t bat a sub .200 rookie in the number two spot.
Yes, a much better BP would have won the games, but there isn’t much that can be done about the BP right now, but there is something that can be done about batting order right now.
“One more thing, somebody show me a better 3, 4, 5 batting order than the Twins right now?”
3. Babe Ruth
4 Lou Gehrig
5. Tony Lazzeri
3. Henry Aaron
4. Eddie Matthews
5. Wes Covington
What is the bunt a lost art all of a sudden. Guys that don’t hit well like Gomez, Punto and Tolbert should be bunting more. Hope Delmon gets back soon. He’s not perfect, but he can hit!!
HAVE FUN !!! GO TWINS !!!
That’s pretty good company
Twins also own the most total runs scored at home, 130, through May 16.
Blackburn-4.38
Slowey-4.50
Liriano-5.21
Perkins- 4.27
Baker- 6.95
Starters era + a SHI^%Y bullpen = Not many wins for the Twins
Sane - I assume you are joking, right? I was referring to a current 3, 4, 5 lineup.
OK, let’s cuss and discuss this:
1. GoGo. Threat to bunt pulls in the corner infielders, opens up the baselines.
2. SpanMan. If GoGo is on, threat to steal, affects pitcher, plus with good bat control will see lots of good pitches in front of Joe.
3. Mauer…Nuff Said.
4. Morneau…Nuff Said.
5. Kubel… Nuff said.
6. Cuddy… Hmmmmmmmmmmmm
7. Crede…. Tough out.
8. Tolbert or Harris. Hmmmmmmmm.
9. The Puntz. What can I say?
Big Bad Voodoo Daddy Phillies current lineup isn’t to shabby either.
Twins are 10th in MLB in BA
3-6; puck 28 hr, hrbek 34 hr, gaetti 31 hr, bruno 32 hr, that wasn’t half bad!
Twins currently rank 6th to last in MLB ERA
Jimmy Bee - I agree
Punto
Span Man
Mauer
Morneau
Kubel
Crede
Cruddy
Tolbert
Go Go
This may sound like blasphemy around here but Span isn’t exactly a great OF. Sure he should be playing in our OF right now, but he isn’t exactly tearing it up (.730 OPS and dropping). He also has a poor arm in the OF.
I guess my point is he isn’t nearly as great as many are making him out to be.
Mauer, Mouneau, Kubel.
Modern day Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Tony Lazzeri.
There I said it.
Punto
Crede
Mauer
Morneau
Kubel
Span
Cruddy
Tolbert
Go Go
Wow Joe the first! Are you OK? I merely pointed out that Jon’s point was a good one, but the way he delivered it was homophobic in nature. Nobody is policing anything or saying anyone doesn’t have the right to say it. Your methods of argument are right out of elementary school, including implying that someone who would point out a homophobic comment must be gay.
I guarantee you that the reason America’s stature has gone down in the world is not because people on blogs politely point out racism or homophobia when they see it. Your comments on Iraq and Afghanistan are just sad and if you feel so strongly about the misguided wars being fought there, why aren’t you over there fighting instead of fighting the battle of the blog?
Span was better in RF but Cuddyer has a cannon . . . if I’m not mistaken Cuddyer was ranked in the top 10 or top 5 for OF Assists in 2007 (I could be wrong).
Gomez has a cannon too but he is also capable of killing someone in the 10th row behind either dugout!!
BBVD,
“Sane - I assume you are joking, right? I was referring to a current 3, 4, 5 lineup.”
If you meant current, then I missed that qualification.
I’ll try Utley, Howard, Ibanez from the Phillies.
Dr.Don I like your lineup I’d flip Span and go-go though. Span is a great lead off hitter because he sees so many pitches. Also he offers protection on the wrap around to punto. Go-Go would also see the best pitches in front of the M&M’s.
span had his ave drop each month as he played full time last year. his ave this yr has dropped about 80 points from april to may, lets hope this isn’t a trend like last year.
G.H. Ruth says:
“Mauer, Mouneau, Kubel.
Modern day Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Tony Lazzeri.”
How would you know?
You were dead before MMK were born.
Tolbert is not a major-league caliber hitter. Can’t believe you are arguing about this on here. This is a non-argument.
Baseball is such a marathon and the success rate for even the best palyers is very low, it’s being a bit tough on guys to get on them for the last 2 or 3 games or even a 20 AB span. However, the Twins simply do not win at Yankee Statdium, new or old. I don’t think it has much to do with what kind of road team the Twins are, or that particular players aren’t performing. I think the Twins’s problem is that the Yankees have simply been better.
You can’t get as many assists as Cuddy got without letting the ball drop a bunch.
Span was better in RF but Cuddyer has a cannon . . .
Cuddyer had a cannon. His arm has been contributing negatively to his defensive ratings the past two seasons.
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1534&position=OF#fielding
Sane -
Agreed, the Phillies have a solid 3, 4, 5 lineup. I’ll still take Mauer, Morneau and Kubel over them.
My concern is our bullpen . . . they are worse than atrocious. We’ll never go anywhere with what we have now. I know Gardy is looking at minor league options so hopefully something happens sooner rather than later or this season can quickly slip away
Thrylos98 -
Cuddyer missed almost the whole 2008 season.
Fair assessment, Larry. Now we are sharing thoughts instead of open ended statements like.. “someone ought to do something”. Thanks, Larry. Doc.
The angels when healthy have
Abreau
Hunter
Guerrero
Maybe somebody can start giving Gardy signs for how to handle a pitching staff. It is amazing that the Twins have the record they have in spite of Gardenhire. Can’t identify talent, can’t manage a game and certainly cannot handle a pitching staff.
Cuddyer missed almost the whole 2008 season.
Cuddyer played 501.2 innings at RF in 2008, if you check the link I gaved in the 2:33pm comment, you will see that his arm was below replacement level in 2008 and still is in 2009 when he played 298.1 innings at RF.
Sane, that hurt me. Now I’ll make you read this:
Start packing the bags, We’re leaving today
I don’t want no part of ‘em - new york, new york
These vagabond spikes, are longing to stray
Right through the very heart of someone - new york, new york
I wanna wake up in a city, that we can beat
And find we’re king of the hill - top of the heap
These little town Twins, are melting away
We’ll make a brand new start of it - out of new york
If we can’t win a game here, We’ll take it anywhere
Well, it’s up yours - new york, NEW YORRRRK!
Kitty Kaat
No one on here gives a rats ass if you are gay or if you are for or against a war. If you dont want to hear the word Punto/Gardy man crush dont read this blog , If you are against any war go protest in washington or get on anti war blog or gay rights blog. This is a Twins blog and when they lose every body gets ripped a new one.
thry, just out of curiosity, do you mean 2007, and 2008? Or am I in the wrong year?
thry, just out of curiosity, do you mean 2007, and 2008? Or am I in the wrong year?
what I mean is that his arm was “a cannon” in 2006 and 2007. In 2008 and 2009 is below replacement level. The numbers in the link I posted earlier, under the column “Arm”
G.H. Ruth I wish I had something better to say to you then F the Yankees. But I don’t. So F the Yankees!
I just looked at the Twinkies schedule.
CWS
MIL
BSOX
TB
Whew! Brutal! Well, we shall see what music selections they have selected to offer us for Crede for the next time through the Windy slum.
Thrylos -
Saw the link, not sure that I agree with the stats.
If you say that Cuddy played 501 innings in 2008 that’s approximately 55 games. Tehy have played 38 games so far this season. Not sure where you’re going with this info.
Bottom line is that he was in the top 10 in OF putouts in 2007 and was injured almost all of 2008 (55 games and he was hurt during someof those) and still early in 2009.
Thrylos98 -
Besides, would you rather Cuddyer or Gomez in the starting lineup?
Yes, Kitty Kat, and I disagree with your opinion that Jon’s comment was homophobic. But more to the point, I objected to your know-it-all lecturing to Jon, when you advised him that his comment has no place on this blog. Jon, or anyone else for that matter, has every right to say whatever.
You have a right to disagree with the ‘whatever,’ but you don’t have a right to try to intimidate him from freedom of expression.
So, nuff said.
GO TWINS!
I’m off to the Stadium.
thrylos
While I do find defensive stats interesting and I think they are more objective than our observations, it is too early, IMO, to draw conclusions from them. Cuddy may have played x number of innings, but the number of chances is still relatively small. One or two bad games can really skew the results.
Thanks for the clarification, thry… there is no doubt that with some aging, the arm goes down hill…. Yankee outfielders, to me, have arms that are not very much better than average either, if we could just hit the ball enough and run on them.
Gardy or Gomez?
Gomez
Kitty Kat, I’ve served, as have both of my sons, and about at least a dozen relatives, including my father and both grandfathers. I’m too old to go now, but I go would if asked or ordered.
When did you serve?
If you didn’t, what have you done to serve your country?
I mean, besides spouting leftist, hate-America blather?
Hey Ben. I’m only replying to the psychotic ramblings of joe the first. If you can’t make a valid point (and jon’s point about gardy favoring punto is absolutely right) without resorting to stupid homophobic comments then maybe you need to rethink your approach. It’s not that hard. You wouldn’t make a racist remark to make your point, so what’s the difference? It’s called not being an idiot.
what a fruedian slip that was
Gomez over Cuddyer if i had the choice.
“Shawn in Binghamton says:
May 18th, 2009 at 2:57 pm
what a fruedian slip that was
Gomez over Cuddyer if i had the choice.”
I agree. But again I would send Gomez down for a bit. He is only usefull currently as a PR or defensively. We have an overabundance of fielders currently so now would be an ideal time to send him down.
Shawn, slip or not you hit on a good point - Cuddy isn’t going anywhere with Gardy at the helm.
Hey Joe. You sound like you have some real problems. I’m sorry that you can’t recognize homophobia when you see it and I’m sorry that you think that anyone who disagrees with you is anti-American. Although I can agree with your “Go Twins” statement. By saying that I hope you don’t think I am surpressing your right to root for other teams.
Joe C has tonight’s lineup posted.
I really wonder if the Twins should have a Spanish-speaking coach work with Gomez. I’m not sure if it’s a language barrier issue at this point but there’s obviously a failure to communicate.
someone should text bert and ask a LaPanta Rug referenced question. On windy days where does LaPanta sit. Does he wear a hat. Does he use denture glue for the rug while we have games in the windy slum. I believe
345345
Texiera couldn’t communicate with him either.
I mean, besides spouting leftist, hate-America blather?
Joe, with all due respect, I don’t think that’s appropriate here either.
Ben W., Shawn in Birmingham and Jimmy B -
Regardless (Cuddy, Gomez or GARDY:)) we need relif help ASAP! I read this morning that Henn may be called up as soon as today or tomorrow and that Slama isn;t ready yet. Well, I don;t think Crain, Breslow and Ayala are ready so why not give the kid a chance.
Agree or disagree?
Teixiera is a whiny baby. That reaction was almost as embarassing as Cuddy’s phantom HBP.
kitty kat go lay in your litter box your nonsense belongs there.. put away the homophobic card for another blog we are talking baseball not lefty politics
Must have been Texeira’s roids raging . . . I’m not say’n I’m just say’n
Tru Dat FIRE VAVRA & GARDY!!!! (Although I don;t agree with firing either of them)
Sean Henn….. yeah, that’s the solution. Just spend some freaking money for once!
Lots of comments today. When will I find the time?
My calm conclusion is that the Twins at least aren’t getting blown away. In fact in the first game, they won it but for Nathan.
Then in the next two games, Cuddy and Span went blank — just at the time when Young is absent. And another possible substitute, Harris, had a big flop.
Everyone else has been contributing all along pretty much. Starting pitching has been more than adequate these three games.
There have been some bad plays and the BP isn’t strong enough. That’s it.
1. Cuddy/Span/Young will come around (and Crede will be back).
2. They say they’re gonna deal with the BP.
3. They’ll make better plays and decisions (Gardy will give them the take signs).
No “the sky is falling” from romer.
Crede’s back will be back too.
I can’t stomach another loss to the Yankees. New York is not a good team this year. Anybody can beat them and that includes the Twins. I just always get the feeling that the Twins are too tight when they come to New York. They try too hard and end up doing dumb things. Thank God we have Mauer, Morneau, Slowey and Nathan who seem to show NO fear at all. These young guys need to stop letting the Yankees get in their heads.
Joe,
Would that be the take sign Gardy planned on giving Go-Go in the 7th tonight with the sacks jammed and a reliever who just walked Cuddy to load the bases on 5 pitches? Love to see the manager follow-up on his words.
Back on the take sign topic:
In 1998, Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa combined for 136 homeruns. Total number of homeruns they hit with a 3-0 count: Zero.
the twins will kick butt no matter what happens
