Postgame: The bullpen, Kubel, Liriano, Young
Posted on June 11th, 2009 – 12:55 AMBy Joe Christensen
OAKLAND, CALIF. – Twins manager Ron Gardenhire praised his bullpen, along with the hitters who came up with the big at-bats late in Wednesday night’s 6-3 comeback victory over Oakland.
After Francisco Liriano gave up the lead in the fourth inning, Oakland didn’t get another hit until Jason Giambi hit his two-out double off Joe Nathan in the ninth.
That span included a scoreless inning by Luis Ayala, two outs from Jose Mijares and one from Matt Guerrier.
“Our bullpen came in and did a super job,” Gardenhire said.
KUBEL DELIVERS
That’s three home runs in 60 career pinch hit plate appearances for Jason Kubel. He also had a two-run, game-tying shot off Detroit’s Joel Zumaya on May 13.
Gardenhire didn’t hesitate to use Kubel to lead off the eighth.
“I had predetermined that the inning before,” Gardenhire said. “I said Kube’s going to lead off if they bring in the righty. I wasn’t sure if they were going to take out the lefty [Dallas Braden] or not.”
Kubel knew his job wasn’t to set the table there.
“I was basically trying to do one thing, and that’s tie the game,” Kubel said. “I was able to swing hard enough to do that.”
LIRIANO PUSHES FORWARD
Liriano wasn’t great, but he delivered his second quality start of the road trip, even if he doesn’t have a win to show for it.
“I feel a lot better because I had three pretty bad starts [before the trip],” Liriano said. “Even if I didn’t get the win, we still got the win. As long as I pitch better, I’m going to get the wins sooner or later.”
Liriano knows he missed with some pitches as Oakland took the lead in the fourth inning. But he had other good moments.
“I was throwing the ball down,” he said. “I think my mechanics are getting better, too. I think I’ve just got to stay more relaxed and not try to make perfect pitches. I told myself to calm down.”
YOUNG HITTING BETTER
Delmon Young’s chopper up the middle gave the Twins a 4-3 lead in the ninth. This came after Joe Crede’s leadoff triple, and Michael Cuddyer’s frustrating foul out.
Young has a five-game hitting streak and has batted .333 (6-for-18) in that span, including his three RBI game Tuesday.
“I talked to Delmon the other day about how we need him to get going,” Gardenhire said. “He’s been through a whole lot, and it’s been a rough time for him. So it’s time to — let’s go, extra work, the whole package, and see if you can focus out here now and really get going for us.
“Because he can be a really good player for us if he gets rolling. That’s all we’re hoping for. He makes a big difference for our lineup if he gets swinging and drives in runs.”
Note: Check back here for Thursday’s afternoon’s starting lineups, as the Twins try to win their second road series of the season.
93 Responses to "Postgame: The bullpen, Kubel, Liriano, Young"
climb that hill to .500!
We are a whole different team when we get even a small contribution from 7-8-9. Hands down right now we have the worst 7-8-9 in baseball.
note to Kubel:
When leading off an inning your job is to GET ON BASE. Shouldnt worry about trying to knock one over. Have next 3 best hitters behind you.
Adam
Is that sarcasm? I hope so.
Love it when the amateurs around here start telling guys what their job is.
DY isn’t exactly ripping the ball but it sure is good to see him making contact, especially in critical situations like he did the last couple of nights.
Thanks for all the late post-game updates on this left-coast trip, Joe.
Adam, you don’t PH a guy like Kubel to get on base. His job there was to do what he did.
Note to Adam S:
When a guy hits a pinch hit game tying home run on the road, you shouldn’t complain about his at bat the next morning.
I for one am glad Kubel tied the game
Adam,
You don’t PH Kubel to get on base.
Way to go Delmon and get a hit when it counts. I’m sick of watching Cuddy look pathetic when we really need a hit but then get a home run or double when it has no effect on the game. It’s great that we were able to come back and get a win after falling behind and I think this was an important step for Liriano to take to stay in there and give the team a chance to get the win.
How did you guys like that outfield after Kubel entered the game (Young/Cuddyer/Kubel)? That has to be the slowest outfield in baseball.
I would think any outfield with Big Helmet in LF is slower by default
I love how Kubel said he was coming up to down one thing: tie the game, and voila! he does it! Seriously, that is awesome, morevoer: awesome that we have pinch-hitting options in the late innings.
Armchair managers..
Cuddy is an amazing CF.
Thank you Joe Christensen for setting the record straight yesterday in your noon chat…The Twins are LUCKY to have Ron Gardenhire, and he proved it once again last night with the Kubel pinch-hit homer. Anyone who says otherwise needs to start reading/watching the national media’s opinion of Gardy.
Magic Man is AMAZING at everything he does! he excels at making things disappear especially rallies
Beware of LNP - as soon as he is off the disabled list today he will be our starting centerfielder (NOT)! But I wouldn’t put it past Gardy to use him there and maybe last night would have been a good time defensively. Thank goodness we had Kubel as a pinch hitting option instead of Butcher.
I’m sure glad I didn’t stick with my mini-boycott (I couldn’t stay away). The last two games have been fun! However, Cuddyer is back to looking completely lost, and I’m just not sure what Alexi Casillia is doing (9th inning defense Tues.).
Right, Louie-Louie. Span will have a tough time winning his job back.
What was his job anyway? Center I think. But he played a lot of left. I thought he was awesome in right, but it doesn’t matter.
Casilla has not played particularly well lately, but he still has more value to the team than Butcher, who is just taking up bench space. He can’t hit, run or field, so what’s he doing on the big-league roster? Give Butcher that ticket to Rochester.
Does anyone have an extra Twins Autograph party card for next weekend against the ‘Stros? I only ordered one and my wife says she wants one too.
Please email me at cblome30 AT hotmail dot com if you would be willing to part with one. THANKS!
One of the best things that could happen is if DY stays semi-hot so he appears to have some upside so he can be traded.
This is how the team must pitch and hit to win road games..maybe a lesson was learned..time will tell..
Cuddy was brutal though as usual after Crede’s triple. “Bonus” (as my wife and I call DY, if he does Anything, it’s a bonus) was better..and Nathan showed again why we had our chance last off season with Joe, M & M..to build around..and nothing done to make a WS run. Best of all, I put my new attitude in place before last night’s game…just relax..realize this is not a playoff team..watch the games as if they are going nowhere and have no expectations..the FO acts as if they could care less, so that’s what I’m going to do. if they win great..if not..oh well, I expected as much..this will be much better for my mental state of mind. I recommend it to all Twins fans.
ES16-
Casilla has more value than Butcher is correct but he will have more value after another stint @ Rochester learning how to be a “big leaguer.” He has tremendous upside but not if he stays unfocused. I don’t know how much AAA would help Butcher. Keep him and send Casilla down so he can get better.
Realistically, Buscher should be DFA’d or simply given his “outright release”. I am quite certain he will not be with the organization after the All Star break. He has no future in ML baseball. He realistcially should never have gotten this far. He would not have in other ML organizations.
you play for the lead on the road, not the tie. 100 bucks says gardy doesn’t like kubel’s quote about trying for the dinger either.
If Punto is going to be the 2b I don’t see any choice but to send down Casilla. Tolbert can play pretty much anywhere where Casilla is basically a 2b with some SS experience a while back.
Now if you want to argue that Buscher should be sent down in order to bring Morales up then go for it.
Perhaps another wrinkle in the send downs/bring ups is Span. If the specialist that he needs to see isn’t back until Tuesday that means that Wednesday is the first day DS can be expected back. This assumes that they can conduct tests and complete a cure on Tuesday. At it’s best Gardy will play short for 6 games. I can’t imagine that he is comfy with that.
Pridie is the only other OF on the 40-man and is not playing particularly well.
It will be interesting to see what they do should they decide to DL Span (and I can’t imagine they won’t have to retro to yesterday)
Is it just me, or does it seem like Delmon’s 6-for-18 “hotstreak” is comprised of infield hits, seeing-eye ground balls, and a bloop double?
I’m always hoping (praying) that Young figures it out, but I rarely see him actually hit a ball squarely. He’s such a strange player…an enigma, wrapped in a mystery, wrapped in a uniform.
I agree to a point, Adam. When he said,”I was basically trying to do one thing, and that’s tie the game”, it sounded like it would be easy hitting a homer and he would have swung at ball four or not put his shoulder into a far inside pitch either.
When’s the first opportunity to see Pundoza slide into first?
LNP will have the chance to eat Wrigley dirt tomorrow afternoon. Be there. Aloha.
Right, Thrill, it’s a “quiet” 6for18, but we’ll take it because as Coyote Tom said his trade value is rising as we speak! ! !
By no means am I making excuses for DY and his play, but maybe his mom’s cancer and death had something to do with his play for the last six weeks or so. I guess for me it would be a little hard to focus, knowing that my mom was dying. I hope he’s coming out of his funk so he can either “spark” the Twins or can be traded.
It’s true, Baldy…dealing with that as a 23 year old would be hard enough. Throw in the fact that he’s been trying and failing to live up to the lofty expectations that go along with being drafted #1 overall, and it’s gotta be tougher. Then there’s the constant negative fan comments, the boo’s…yeah, I feel for the guy.
Still though, hit the ball.
Shaun,
Does, Louie-Louie, “gotta go now”?
I’m sure everyne feels bad for Delmon, but that doesn’t explain the lackluster performance all of last year. It just appears to me that he’s never been what everyone thought he would be.
oh no,Joe, me gotta go, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, baby.
Fredo,
The won’t DL Span until at least Wednesday.
Why? They play the Cubs this weekend so no DH. Kubel will have to play OF or ride the bench so that gives us 4OF. Punto and Tolbert can play OF if need so they have 2 extra OFs if necessary.
They have an off day on Monday and if Span’s dizzy spells have subsided he will probably play on Tuesday or Wednesday while waiting for the results/diagnosis of his tests.
Delmon is hitting the ball better, i was there Tuesday night and even his outs were hard hit, if he gets hot this team is much better, he is only 23 or 24 years old, give him some time
Talking about how Delmon Young is turning it around by hitting slow choppers through a drawn-in infield while still striking out every other at bat and continuing to fail to hit for power should be enough to make any Twins fan vomit.
Liriano needs to learn not to tip his pitches. Stop standing at the set with his lead shoulder pointing at the side of the plate where he’s going to throw. RH batters see this and are pulling outside pitches, which is almost impossible if you can’t predict them ahead of time. In contrast, Baker is practically unreadable, which is why he can go 8 innings with no runs. Baker’s stuff is no better than Liriano’s but Baker doesn’t tip his pitches.
Still got the job done, he didn’t strike out or foul out like Cuddyer, he needs to play, sitting every other game doesn’t help
ed -
Actually, if you want to argue that Young should play instead of Cuddyer, or platoon with him, I’d be more open to that. My biggest problem is that Young is cutting into Gomez’s playing time, because Gomez needs to play everyday to develop as well, but he actually plays good defense. So I won’t take as much issue with the Cuddyer suggestion - but if it’s between Gomez and Young, I take Gomez every day, Young gets bench time. I’ve not seen every Delmon at-bat the last week; just about every one i’ve seen has been a strikeout.
what time is the game today?
ed, that may be, but playing him every day doesn’t help the Twins, and by extension, us.
2:35, according to Twins’ website
David says:
June 11th, 2009 at 10:45 am
Talking about how Delmon Young is turning it around by hitting slow choppers through a drawn-in infield while still striking out every other at bat and continuing to fail to hit for power should be enough to make any Twins fan vomit.
——————–
i couldn’t care less how he does it. that slow chopper put us back in the lead. kubel wasn’t very good his first few years, but gardy stuck with him and he matured. the same will happen to delmon. the same thing even happened to moreneau.
SweetOne,
Forgot about the NL series at Chi. The only reason they might retro him to yesterday would be to get him back sooner.
I will disagree that we will see him on Tuesday or Wednesday even if the symptoms subside. From Gardy:
And he won’t be back, Gardenhire said, until the team gets some answers.
“I have no time limit on it,” Gardenhire said. “This is the second or third time it’s come up, so we have to find out what’s going on here before we worry about baseball.”
I still think he will be DL’ed. There are so many causes of dizziness (see Mayo website) that unless they find the cause right away it will take time just to run the batteries of tests.
thanks David
Ed has the right idea. Seeings how you are in California, could you pull a few strings and see if the Padres would like a young outfielder with a hitting streak in exchange for Peavy?
(like peavy’s gonna ok that deal)
Fredo,
They can retro him no matter if/when the DL him. If they DL him next Friday they can retro him back to Tuesday if he hasn’t played.
If Span says he feels fine on Tuesday and is wants to play, he will play.
Brian,
I wouldn’t say we have the worst 7-8-9 in baseball. I would however say that up until the last game or 2 they have been the least productive in baseball. If they can at least have productive at bats this team will improve a lot, IMO.
Adam. I am sure Gardy has no problem with Kubel saying that. If you listen to his postgame presser he basically says he is looking for him to circle the bases there and that is what he wanted. I can’t believe people actually complain about a game tying homerun!
The Twins drafted pitchers, outfielders and middle infielders. Guess why?
Liriano: “I told myself to calm down.” Actually, I’m pretty sure I saw Mike Redmond mouth the words, “Calm down,” several times, and I think Anderson might have mentioned something to that effect as well in the dugout after the 4th inning. Frankie should share some of the credit there.
Adam S.,
We were down by 1 and Kubel was leading off. How can he “play for the lead”? hit a 2 run homer with no one on base? He hits a bomb it’s tied. He gets a basehit and one of the guys behind him has to either hit a bomb or string together a couple of hits. I doubt Gardy is upset that his pinch hitter went out there and hit a homerun to tie the game.
Hey does anyone notice that all the players that Ken mentioned getting better as they matured seemed to “move away” from the Twins hitting motto. They don’t slap at the ball anymore trying to hit grounders the other way. When Delmon was in TB he just went up there and tried to rip the ball. No he seems to have an inside out swing trying to hit it to RF every at bat. I think Vavra is a big part of the issue with the young guys. They Major Leaguers, you don’t need to teach them how to hit. Just be there to find and fix kinks in the swing when they occur.
Ken -
Justin Morneau OPS:
2003: .664
2004: .875
2005: .741
2006: .941
2007: .834
2008: .873
Jason Kubel OPS:
2004: .792
2006: .665
2007: .785
2008: .805
Delmon Young:
2006: .812
2007: .723
2008: .741
Quite simply, where Morneau and Kubel showed a huge improvement within three years, Young shows only regression/stagnation. Furthermore, my point isn’t simply saying that “Delmon Young is bad” (even though he is). My point is, “Delmon Young should not take time away from Carlos Gomez.” And for the record, somewhat related to this point, I DO care how Young does it. For Young to be worth any playing time, he’s got to hit for power and get on base, because he defense is atrocious. Well, he doesn’t hit for power, he hits over 50% ground balls, he’s struck out 35% of his appearances this year (which is astronomically high), and he doesn’t walk. He’s a worse hitter than Nick Punto and a terrible defensive player and shows no signs of getting better. Gomez, I think, does show signs of improvement (albeit slow, and frustrating), but he gives you excellent defense. So that’s my point. Why play Young everyday when you have a better player with signs of improvement on the bench?
Adam - I’ll take your bet and with it I’ll have that $100… Gardy was quoted after the game saying, “In that spot we are looking for someone to get on, or circle them. Obviously Kubel is a hitter we put up there to circle them”.
Do you want to deliver the $100 or should I come pick it up?
And why trade a 23 year old that is becoming semi-hot?
Trade a 30 year old (Cuddyer) that looks silly and fouls out to first with a runner on 3rd and 0 out.
Since Kubel doesn’t have the best speed, just getting on base and “going for the tie” were not the reason he was put in. He at least needed an extra base hit. M & M are not immune from hitting into double plays, and it was 1-2-3 after him anyway. Small ball is nice, but sometimes you want the long ball. Besides, Kubel swinging for the fences is not like Gomez. Kubel can hit a homer without swinging out of his shoes. Keep eating those gummy bears Jason!
CUDDY is very, very, bad!
Cuddy has looked pretty terrible since returning from his finger injury. But then again, he also looked bad at the beginning of the year and people were calling for his head. Then he hit a hot streak and people quieted down. Then he got injured. Either he is not 100%, or he is just a very streaky hitter.
Yeah we all gotta love Gomez and his soon to be below mendoza line batting average when he can’t even get down a good bunt to advance runners. Gomez is a joke.
How is the world can T.W. start in front of J.K. And please do not give the sad story about a left handed pitcher, and Ron is playing the percentage.
Kubel is flat out a better baseball player than Young.
_Yeah we all gotta love Gomez and his soon to be below mendoza line batting average when he can’t even get down a good bunt to advance runners. Gomez is a joke._
His offense isn’t that much different than Young’s. He strikes out less, he’s more patient than he was a year ago, and he actually works with coaches, whereas Gardenhire has been quoted as saying Young won’t take advice. And the biggest difference - Gomez plays DEFENSE. ALL-WORLD defense. Young plays terrible defense. So why the Young love and Gomez hate? I don’t get it.
when has gomez batted .290 in a full major league season?
JIMBO92017 - You think you can read Liriano, huh? My guess is you could stand there for 25 of his “tipped” pitches and not touch the ball!
That bunt Gomez laid down would have been just fine if the runner going from 2nd to 3rd was anybody except Mike Redmond.
but i do agree both gomez and young need to play along with span when healthy. There needs to be a set outfield instead of the shuffle a player in as the guy that starts that day is worrying about not playing the next day because of 1 strikeout or double play. Gardy needs to give these guys certainty that they will play and that he has confidence in them. Look what that has done for Kubel when everyone was ragging on him a few years ago.
Hey everyone. Kubel is a power hitter, plain and simple. He waits for a pitch to drive and tries to drive it. With two strikes he might shorten the swing and try for contact. With 3 balls, he might look for a ball to walk uncontested. But for the most part he’s looking for a fatty to crush.
Sure, Kubel says he was going for the homer but that is always going to be the case when he leads an inning. Just because he goes for the big homer doesn’t mean he can’t double, single, or walk. It just means he’s looking for a high fastball to slaughter and he’ll watch a couple pitches to get it. If the guy threw a bunch of pitches low and outside out of the zone he would have walked. But the guy threw a high outer half fat fastball, which is Kubel’s best pitch to hit if you’ve paid attention.
A guy like Kubel doesn’t really have a “just try to get on base” mode. He isn’t going to slap a high chopper and beat it out or shoot a soft liner to left. I mean the guy swings hard and tries to get extra bases. If he hits a single it means he topped the ball or didn’t get on it right and it just happened to bounce through. He isn’t Joe Mauer or Denard Span trying to slap one through the hole.
So don’t read too deeply into the quote.
Trade Cuddayer now for pitching or 2B???
FIRE BILLY SMITH!!!
Dude - look at the total package rather than cherry picking stats that best “help” your argument. Young has had an OPS below .750 the last two seasons and plays bad DEFENSE. This is his third full season in the big leagues and he looks worse than ever. That OPS isn’t enough from a guy who plays terrible DEFENSE. If Gomez hits .270 with a .320 OBP he’ll be close to an all star because of his DEFENSE. Furthermore, Young’s BA is incredibly shallow, because he hits mostly singles and ground balls, doesn’t walk, doesn’t hit for power and strikes out way too much. For a guy who plays terrible DEFENSE, a weak .290 BA doesn’t mean nearly as much as a guy who plays all-world DEFENSE and hits .260.
Thoughts:
1. I don’t know how long they can play down an outfielder, so IMO if Span isn’t ready to go on Friday, he should be DL’d then and a replacement brought in from Rochester. I’d say Hughes if he’s healthy, otherwise Pridie I guess. Another option would be stick with the outfielders they have and bring up Morales.
2. If it were me, Tolbert would stay, Buscher would stay, and Casilla would be in Rochester when Punto is activated. I expect to see Punto playing a lot of 2nd base, and Tolbert is more versatile as a bench player than Casilla. Buscher hasn’t hit much so far, but I think he’s a better hitter than he’s shown to date, and a decent LH pinch hitting option, not to mention if Crede needs to sit on a day the Twins are facing a RH starter, I’d probably prefer Buscher at third.
3. Last night was a perfect example of why it makes sense to sit Kubel on days the team faces a LH starter. Kubel isn’t a good bet to have much success against a lefy anyway, but can be a weapon off the bench, inserted at a key point late in the game.
4. Liriano still worries me, but it’s not ’stuff’ or ‘tipping his pitches,’ it’s his consistent lack of command that’s the problem.
5. No matter what Crede does or doesn’t hit, when he plays he really solidifies the infield. He’s a legitimately good third baseman, even when dinged up.
Gomez’s defense is the same as Punto’s…..completely overrated. He takes terrible routes on fly balls and has a hard time reading them off the bat, but he like young is only 23 we need to be patient with both of them not just gomez.
My “problem” with DY is that he is not getting better. Even though he was obtained to be a power hitter and he is not turning out to be one, he could at least get better at being a contact hitter. His defense is average, at best, so I see no reason to keep playing him at the expense of ANY of the of’s. Kubel’s D is not great either, but he can hit. I know DY is young but he has been in the bigs for over 3 seasons. He gets better or dispose of him.
I’ve not heard ANYONE say Gomez’s D is overrated except you, but the bottom line is Gomez gets to more balls than any CF in the bigs save maybe Franklin Gutierrez. So if he’s taking bad routes, he should only get better with experience, right?
I’d be more patient with Young if he weren’t taking time from Gomez and if he actually seemed to care about getting better. Neither of those things are happening and Gomez has higher upside - so I’m more patient with Gomez than Young.
lol better contact hitter - coyotetom, I think DY’d have to turn into Rod Carew to still be worthwhile.
I love when people make excuses like Gomez taking bad routes to justify his overrated defense. Yet when you look at the pure unbiased stats they show he gets to the most balls of any CF in baseball. Gomez is a great defensive CF, bad routes or not.
it could soon be argued that cuddyer is taking time from Gomez as well and not just DY. Who knows maybe if span goes on the DL it could end up being a good thing since everyone will get regular playing time and not be pressing every single at bat. Gardy is to blame for a lot of the problems with Gomez and Young’s production this year. When they were playing everyday they were developing, now every other day each of them is sitting. Fair enough regarding having more patience with Gomez and im fine being patient with him as well even if he is hitting sub .200….Hunter, Morneau, Kubel were all not playing well at 23 years of age either.
I’ll take Torii Hunter in CF any day.
you’ll overpay
when you could have a player worth about as many wins for the price of Gomez. (sorry, accidentally submitted too early)
when you look at the pure unbiased stats they show he gets to the most balls of any CF in baseball
//paraphrase from a GREAT movie// I don’t think that phrase means what you think it means.
I just love how everyone here seems to give up on players when they are 23 years old just because they are struggling a bit, but when they are showing signs of coming around they still bash the player.
I can’t imagine how much DY hates minnesota and the fans here. As a season ticket holder it makes me sick that the people here would treat a player so poorly. I am hoping for the day that he gets traded to somewhere where he is supported by the fans and wanted. Can’t wait until he puts up the big numbers somewhere else and everyone here can eat every single word.
Chief,
Normally I would agree with you about being down an outfield, but since we don’t have a DH this weekend, Kubel becomes an OF and we still have 4. Add Tobert and Punto and that makes 6.
I am pretty sure they will not DL Span for the weekend series. If they planned on putting him on the DL they would’ve done it last night. With the specialist unavailable until Tuesday it is obvious Span won’t play this weekend. The only reason to not have DL’d him by now is for him to be the Punto replacement. And we would still be short an OF.
The only real reason to DL him is that will be short 1 bench player for PH duty for the Cubs series.
“if he actually seemed to care about getting better.”
The ability to “seem to care” is learned in drama school.
The ability to GET BETTER is all that counts and for Delmon that is TBD.
And everyone here knows that he doesn’t care? Do you really know? Absolutely not.
The ability to get better is the key and at 23 years old both gomez and young have the ability to get better. Just be patient.
but if they were say late 20’s then it would be a different story.
Love to see gomez on the bench again and cuddyer starting in CF and DY is 2 for 2!!!
