Wednesday update: Manship, Valencia, Casilla, Swarzak
Posted on June 24th, 2009 – 11:52 AMBy Joe Christensen
MILWAUKEE — Couple interesting developments on the farm for the Twins:
(*) Jeff Manship has been promoted to Class AAA Rochester from Class AA New Britain. Seth Stohs had the scoop Tuesday night. I’m hearing Manship likely will start Thursday for the Red Wings. As Seth noted, Manship was 6-4 with a 4.28 for New Britain but 3-1 with a 1.80 ERA in his past five starts.
(*) Danny Valencia had an impressive debut for Rochester on Tuesday, going 3-for-5 with a double and an RBI. As Wings manager Stan Cliburn told the Rochester Democrat & Chronicle, he expects Valencia to be a regular at third base and in the No. 5 spot of the lineup. Valencia batted .284 (.373 OBP, .482 SLG) with seven home runs in 218 at-bats for New Britain before his promotion.
(*) Also worth noting that Alexi Casilla hasn’t played for Class AAA Rochester since injuring his groin while chasing a foul ball in Game 1 of Sunday’s doubleheader. And RHP Anthony Swarzak is 0-0 with a 3.14 ERA (5 ER, 14.33 IP) in two starts since getting sent back to Rochester.
Note: Check back this afternoon for tonight’s starting lineups.
134 Responses to "Wednesday update: Manship, Valencia, Casilla, Swarzak"
Valencia will be anchoring 3rd at Target Field next year.
Kubel going to play tonight? I hope so, would make our lineup that much deeper, and up the defense a little (not too much though).
Gomez
Harris
Mauer
Morneau
Kubel
Cuddyer
Crede
Punto
Blackburn
So Valencia holding down 3rd in AAA, is Hughes moving somewhere like 2B or the OF?
Any updates yet on the Twins sending Ayala and couple minor league pitchers to the Pirates for Grabow and Sanchez??
A man can dream, a man can dream.
Here is the situation with the Rochester infield:
Valencia 3B,
Plouffe SS
Tolleson 2B
have to be the every day starters and will start there mostly every day. Rochester is one OF short.
Macri and Machado will probably see sporadic action.
Hughes is on the DL. When he comes of the DL he will probably be on a 3 people rotation for the DH spot (Peterson and Huber, the guys who are splitting 1B) and will probably be on rotation with Huber on the LF spot and play sporadic 2B.
The problem I see is with the one whom I did not mention: Alexi Casilla. Unfortunately he looks like the odd man out at this point… I suspect that he will play some 2B and Tolleson will also move to the LF rotation.
To add to what Thrylos posted, I’m hearing that Hughes, when healthy, may spend a little time back in New Britain. But he would be back in Rochester quickly. My guess is that he will get more time in LF and DH.
I definitely agree that Casilla is expendable because you mention Valencia, Plouffe and Tolleson, but Brian Dinkelman has had a very good year playing 2B in New Britain and is another guy who has earned a promotion but is waiting for opportunity. Same thing with 1B Whit Robbins. It will be interesting to see how the remainder of the summer plays out in Rochester.
T-98
Is Alexi not doing well at Rochester?
Brian Dinkelman has had a very good year playing 2B in New Britain and is another guy who has earned a promotion but is waiting for opportunity
Agreed on both Dinkelman and Robbins. The only way I see that happening is if Tolleson moves to the Twins for Tolbert who is never going to be anything more than a utility guy and one of Huber/Peterson move elsewhere (I would not mind seeing Peterson and Robbins switching levels at this point).
Casilla just strained or pulled a groin muscle. would be a good time to DL him and let those 3 play…a lot. I’d like to see Tolleson get a shot at 2nd in the bigs and Dinkleman at AAA..Singleton has been hitting well in FM of late, and could easily jump to AA.
Yeah any trade involving the Pirates sending Sanchez anywhere, ESPECIALLY to the Twins for LUIS freaking AYALA, you can fahgitaboutit.
Casilla’s problem goes beyond his numbers.If he doesn’t shape up quickly Seth is right (as usual!),Dinkleman might be the Twins new Secondbaseman of the future.Ranz said the Twins really like Dinklemans make up and said he has leadership qualities.
any talk of letting casilla play ss — even if it’s at a lower level? isn’t that supposed to be his natural position?
The problem with Casilla is that his bridge with Gardenhire (and thus with the organization) is practically all but burned. When he plays, he plays under the microscope all the time. Every missed play and error is talked about. This is not good for Casilla, this is not good for the Twins. I suspect that by the next spring training he will be wearing a different uniform (unless Gardenhire leaves)
I wonder if these leadership qualities Dinkleman is showing means he takes charge of the infield 
I’m still confused why the Pirates would be interested in a 31 year old sinker ball pitcher with a sinker ball that doesn’t sink.
Quite the glut of middle infielders. Now which one (or two) do the Pirates want for Sanchez?
bj, but Ayala has a stinker ball that stinks.
Rochester infield situation is very interesting. Thanks to Seth and thrylos for the information.
How promising was Gomez last night? It wasn’t the 3 hits…it was the approach at the plate. He was obviously putting a huge effort on contact to right field. He was very solid at the plate last night. The only pitch he turned on was an inside pitch and that is exactly how he should hit. His bat speed is so good he is capable of looking to hit opposite field and still turn on the inside fastball.
Can he keep improving with this approach? It appears like the effort to improve is there…that is all we ask for.
My crazy lineup when Span returns and we have our DH. When Gomez gets on he scores often and is a huge distraction for the pitchers. Let’s have Span and GoGo hit in front of our big guys.
Span LF
Gomez CF
Mauer C
Morneau 1B
Kubel/Cuddy DH/RF (Left/Right)
Crede 3rd
Cuddy/Young RF/DH (Left/Right)
Harris SS
Punto/Tolbert 2nd
I remember some knowledgable Met fan was commenting here after we signed Ayala. He had said something like “Twins will regret this signing in a hurry” and “a guy who has delusions of being a closer but keeps getting hit night after night” Why would the Twins pay this guy that much when he almost singlehandly blew the pennant for the Mets last year??? Good Luck in that Pirate Uniform!!
Biggest concern of the day still is Liriano. I’m watching the FSN replay right now.
Liriano struck out Hart IMO in the 1st for the 3rd out, but Hart was given the BB instead. As a result, the Brewers got 2 of their 3 runs. And you could see the reaction on Liriano’s face.
A civil reaction, not whining or anger. But it lasted for quite a while. An attitude. Liriano didn’t need that bad luck.
I’m sure he was feeling “Here it comes again” — a minor yet constant version of being shell-shocked. And so it’s been going like this all season.
He has the best stuff on the staff. It’s not his fault he’s going through this re-learning project, and bad luck isn’t his fault.
I am not a Liriano basher, and I don’t think he is a head case. But akin to that, I think he’s in a constant state of frustration beyond the normal course of competitive events in this game we call baseball.
So, now I am relenting and believe it’s time for the BP for him. Not as a demotion, but rather as a gift/opportunity for him to relax and turn the corner.
The time has come. It didn’t have to. If he had gotten that strike out, he may very well have cruised through 7. And that’s the good news — he’s very close to getting it together.
But any little thing of non-performance or bad luck uniquely sets him back miles rather than inches, because of this season’s experience.
Perfect candidate for a BP reset.
And yes, his pitching was all over the place last night. But he showed why he is definitely not a AAA candidate because of his outstanding marathon struggle last night. Might be the most outstanding performance — against all odds — this season for the Twins.
But, too many marathons this year for him. Let him do some sprinting in the BP.
Interesting about Casilla but I agree.
Valencia, Plouffe and Tolleson would be an interesting trio to watch for a while. Tolleson can easily switch to the OF as well as he has already done at Rochester and during this college days. He’s that talented.
Casilla is the key. He recovers or he is tanked. He definitely is in Gardy’s doghouse for now and won’t be returning to MN anytime soon.
Next ST will be interesting.
“Quite the glut of middle infielders. Now which one (or two) do the Pirates want for Sanchez?”
Probably neither, but I’m betting one or 2 of them would make them happy to send Jack Wilson to MN
Rene Tosoni is also deserving of a promotion. He has been having a great year.
I want Crede at thrid next year trade Valencia……….. Crede is proven. Twins need a bullpen as well.
thrylos, leave it to you to attribute Casilla’s crummy attitude to Gardy. Another cheap shot on the board for you. Congratulations.
Still watching FSN, and Gomez won the game in the 3rd with his 2-RBI single. The Twins have GOT to play him the rest of the year.
i’d like to see Parmelee get a promotion too. last two months he’s been good. The walk rate and power is promising
The GCL Twins pitched a combined no-hitter this afternoon, behind JimCrikkitt’s own Hometown Hero, BJ Hermsen and a guy you gotta love as a pitcher: Dakota Watts. Both are about 6′5″ or so.
Fun to read the roster, as players are from everywhere: Russia, Czech Republic, Taiwan, S. Korea, Australia, Venezuela, Dominican Rep.,even two or three from the States.
“I’ll take ‘Phases associated with the Minnesota Twins you don’t often see for $1000, Alex.”
“This was posted on Joe C’s blog recently.”
“What is ‘Quite the glut of middle infielders.’”
“Correct.”
Any updates yet on the Twins sending Ayala and couple minor league pitchers to the Pirates for Grabow and Sanchez??
Ayala is NOT going to be enough of a “Centerpiece” to pull Sanchez away from the Pirates let alone him AND Grabow. Even if you “throw-in” a few minor league players.
thrylos, leave it to you to attribute Casilla’s crummy attitude to Gardy.
I’m waiting for when he posts about how Span getting hit on the hand was Gardy’s fault.
Relax, I was mostly kidding around. And as I said, I am shocked anybody has interest in that dude. But what I do know is that the Pirates are desperate for minor league pitching depth.
I’m still confused why the Pirates would be interested in a 31 year old sinker ball pitcher with a sinker ball that doesn’t sink.
How do you think the Pirates got to where they are?
t98 and I had a conversation the other day about a possible trade for Freddy Sanchez. What do you guys think of this trade?
Casilla, Mulvey, and Ayala for Sanchez
Casilla needs a fresh start, Mulvey has been solid this year and the Pirates (for some reason) have an interest in Ayala
beetlejuice: I think with the Pirates it’s a situation where they truly CAN’T do any worse.
If they deal Ayala to PIT, probably will be for a player to be named later.
When he plays, he plays under the microscope all the time. Every missed play and error is talked about.
Wow…that sounds just like another Twins second baseman who will go unnamed.
thrylos, leave it to you to attribute Casilla’s crummy attitude to Gardy.
Where exactly did I say that? I said:
“The problem with Casilla is that his bridge with Gardenhire (and thus with the organization) is practically all but burned. ….. I suspect that by the next spring training he will be wearing a different uniform (unless Gardenhire leaves)
I am stating my thought about the situation without blaming or pointing fingers (unlike you, who points the finger to Casilla.) It’s a bad situation for both Casilla and the Twins and the bottom line is that it does not matter who is “at fault” but that it has to be resolved one way or another.
T, It wasn’t?
So, Kubel would be an upgrade on defense over Delmon? I’m not buying.
So, Liriano has the best “stuff” on the whole pitching staff? If by “stuff”, you mean “wild and inconsistent on every pitch”, then ya, he has the best stuff.
So, it sounds like the Twins minor leagues is chalk full of average infielders. I’m excited for the future now!!
dmoen21:
“t98 and I had a conversation the other day about a possible trade for Freddy Sanchez. What do you guys think of this trade?
Casilla, Mulvey, and Ayala for Sanchez”
Yeah, well me and the Dali Lama were talking about how you two must’ve taken a toke or three off his bong when you came up with that. By the way, the Dali Lama, after deep meditation, concluded that Billy Smith is the GM. Good luck to you and thrylos on all your trade talks.
Kubel is no upgrade defensively over anyone on this roster. Kubel is a very good DH against RHP and a good bat off the bench in key spots when a lefty starts. He provides depth to the OF as well…that is his role and that is the role he excels in. Leave him alone with that role please.
No possibility of Valencia playing 2B?
bop:
So are you saying that Billy Smith does not read blog comments? I had no idea. And how did you meet the Dali Lama?
thrylos, you are so amazingly disingenuous. What a hoot.
No one can read that post and conclude that that you were NOT chep shotting, and you know it. And you called Gardy a liar. What a fraud you are.
“And how did you meet the Dali Lama?”
Bingo night at the parish.
bop, thanks for the note about Hermsen and his friends. I’ve been curious about how his year has been developing (but obviously not curious enough to investigate on my own).
Yeah Macleod, Liriano is stupendously awful while Baker is a near-ace.
Baker - 5.22 with 68 K’s and 13 BB’s
Liriano 5.88 with 74 K’s and 40 BB’s
Liriano’s control is stupendously awful for sure. But his good stuff still allows him to approach Baker’s performance.
And his ERA is about 4 his last 4 starts. He’d easily remain on most — if not all — teams’ starting staffs. But the Twins set a higher bar because they anticipate winning a Division.
You’re welcome, JC. Hopefully you’ll get lots of positive progress reports on him.
I met the Dalai once. I was just out of the Air Force, back in my caddying days, on a tramp steamer en route to Diego Garcia for an Asian Tour tournament…So anyways, I jump ship in Hong Kong and make my way over to Tibet, and I get on as a looper at a course over in the Himalayas. A looper, you know, a caddy, a looper, a jock. So, I tell them I’m a pro jock, and who do you think they give me? The Dalai Lama, himself. Twelfth son of the Lama. The flowing robes, the grace, bald… striking. So, I’m on the first tee with him. I give him the driver. He hauls off and whacks one - big hitter, the Lama - long, into a ten-thousand foot crevasse, right at the base of this glacier. Do you know what the Lama says? Gunga galunga… gunga, gunga-galunga. So we finish the 18th and he’s gonna stiff me. And I say, “Hey, Lama, hey, how about a little something, you know, for the effort, you know.” And he says, “Oh, uh, there won’t be any money, but when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness.” So I got that goin’ for me, which is nice.
I don’t recall bringing up Baker’s name in comparison to Liriano, but ok, I’ll bite. 27 more free passes by Liriano is a stat you cannot ignore. It’s just such a shame that hitters aren’t swinging at Liriano’s “best stuff” instead of taking those free passes. I also never said send him down, or trade him, or release him, or put him in the pen. I said Liriano having “the best stuff” on the staff is a joke, since the man simply does not know how to “pitch”. Oh, he can throw all right. He just can’t pitch. I could see it all over his face last night after every ball. He’s on the mound “hoping” to throw strikes instead of pitching. How many times did Mauer go out to the mound last night to calm him down? If anything, with Liriano having such great stuff, he is even more of an embarrassing disappointment than anybody else.
Also, did I hear a stat last night that Liriano has the most losses in the American League? Now THAT’S great stuff.
If not, I’m sure it will be Gardy’s fault.
When Nicky makes one of his 5 errors, it’s the result of him “getting after it”. When Casilla makes one of his 5 errors, it was a bonehead play.
Can’t you guys understand the difference? It’s really quite simple.
Liriano’s ERA his last 4 starts = 4.12
“27 more free passes by Liriano is a stat you cannot ignore.”
And I’m not ignoring it. It’s why I’m now suggesting he go to the pen, duh. And yes, it’s the reason for his horrible W-L record.
And it’s the reason for Baker’s dismal W-L record……..as opposed to — ironically — Blackburn.
Blackburn has walked too many this year too. But it looks like he has way more control while pitching over the plate than Baker.
Same situation when comparing Baker (and everyone) to Slowey.
Casilla, Ayala & Swarzak to the Pirates for Matt Capps and Freddie Sanchez…
Don’t know why bop is going over the top today v. thrylos. Ya have to pick your battles, bop.
Thry was just stating the conventional wisdom referring to Casilla not being the type of player normally associated with the Twins and/or Gardy.
And, again, the Twins set a higher bar because of their Division pursuit. Casilla could eventually come around somewhere, but probably not this year.
USA:
Are you brandishing a pitchfork right now?
Chief,
Priceless.
Chief, loved your 2:15pm Dalai story. But I’m afraid its power will not be felt by the FanGraphers. You left out his score.
greasy grimy gopher guts
Luke Hughes, Min Hughes has been sidelined with a strained oblique muscle at Triple-A Rochester, the Minneapolis Star Tribune reports.
Spin: With top third base prospect Danny Valencia promoted to Triple-A it will be interesting to see if Hughes is moved to a new position or moves to the bench when healthy.
Wed, Jun 24
rotowire.com
Hey Chief, is there an algae alert on your lake or sommething?
I mean, summer reading is a summer pasttime of leisure, but you’ve transformed it to summer writing.
See how the Dali works his magic? Transforming your life……
But are you sure it was an 18-hole course? Or was it a 9- with a different conscious perception the second time through?
The Pirates are my favorite team, the Twins a close #2. I dearly hope the Pirates make none of the trades with the Twins I’ve seen proposed here (today and previously) and have faith that their front office isn’t nearly foolish enough to do so. Freddie Sanchez would be a huge star if he played in NYC or Philly or L.A. It will take real red meat to get him to Minnesota, and I frankly don’t think it would be worth it from the Twins point of view given the organizational depth at 2nd (Tolleson, Dinkleman, Singleton). Along those lines, my fingers are crossed that LNP needs DL’d because of his self-inflicted injury so Tolleson gets a shot at second.
Romer, I think your analysis of the state of Liriano’s head is pretty right on, but I’d still keep him in the rotation. We might (rightly) groan and roll our eyes when Bert or Gladden talk about pithers and the Win stat, and I certainly don’t think Liriano (or any other pitcher) is so simple as to think “well, I got the win, I did the job” after a performance like that, but the fact that he was left in to grind and successfully finished the 5th inning (independent of doing so’s relation to the W) could well be huge for his mental outlook. If his next start is also a disaster, though, a head-clearing BP run would definitely be in order.
Golly are the Twins rookie league teams fun to follow. They just seem so much more prepared than many other org’s clubs. It’s great to see a bunch of last year’s GCL standouts (Anderson Hidalgo, Michael Gonzales, Josmil Pinto) picking up where they left off at ETown.
Is anyone else shaking their head at this latest revelation that part of why the Twins DFA’d Ayala is because he had the audacity to request a trade three weeks ago?
Why are we so bothered by this concept? Major League Baseball is a business and the athletes are (supposedly) professionals. Just because someone requests a trade doesn’t mean they’re not going to give you their best effort each time out. The Twins will be my team for life, but I can understand if certain players may want a trade–so what?
Like I said in 220, can’t we just say Ayala wasn’t cutting it on the field and leave it at that? Do we have to create these other ancillary reasons?
Jason,
You can’t understand how big of an idiot Ayala is for wanting to either becoming the 8th innning guy or be traded? He has been garbage. Yes, it is a business… so go out there and do your job! If Ayala wouldn’t have been so terrible this year, he may have had a chance at that role but to demand a trade with his performance the last few years (including this year) is embarrasing to him and I am glad Gardy let the Twins fans know how big of an idiot this guy is.
Chief,
You’ve got to be sh***n me! I thought you were going someplace with the Dali having the best game of his life in a thunderstorm and then get’s struck by lightning on the 18th green - you steal his wallet - and what a Cinderella story!
Jason,
I, for one, really enjoy learning bout the team’s “behind the scene” stuff. It caters to my interest. It helps things make sense.
And I don’t think I’m the only fan of this stuff.
I’m a big ‘buy low, sell high’ guy.
There may never be a better opportunity to snare JJ Hardy at an acceptable cost.
Do it.
Joe Shore,
I agree Ayala has been terrible and that justified him being DFA’d.
This other garbage isn’t convincing, though. I’m not as concerned about if a player is a nice guy, if he “gets after it”, if he’s coachable, if he likes being here, or if he scours at small children and puppies…or God forbid if he dare request a trade. I care mostly about results.
So if Ayala didn’t cut it on the merits (as he didn’t), fine, part ways. But don’t pretend that it was some attitude situation that caused the move to happen–because implicit in that is the idea that a mediocre player can remain on the roster if they have a good attitude (a few names from Gardenhire year’s past might come to mind here).
In either scenario, you’re not valuing winning as the most important factor.
Is anyone else shaking their head at this latest revelation that part of why the Twins DFA’d Ayala is because he had the audacity to request a trade three weeks ago?
Wait wait wait. Are you actually supporting Ayala on this one? The guy sucked up until only recently, yet was demanding he be put into the high pressure 8th inning role.
How does that add up to be a good thing in your head?
He was acting like a diva and wasn’t putting up the stats to support it. Let’s put this in the real world for a second:
If somebody who sucked at their job went to their boss and demanded what amounts to a promotion or else they’d walk…what do you think would happen?
I’ll give you a hint, it’d involve a box at your desk and a request to hand in your badge.
Like I said in 220, can’t we just say Ayala wasn’t cutting it on the field and leave it at that? Do we have to create these other ancillary reasons?
LOL at “creating” a reason. How DARE the Strib actually report on things as they are revealed. Man…what kind of crappy Twins coverage is that.
I can’t figure it out Jason. Do you want the press to softball the Twins FO and just report what happens, or do you want the Twins insiders (the guys who are supposed to dig beyond the initial story) to get more info as to what happened behind the scenes.
Ayala sucked. No duh. But not only did he suck…he wanted a better job without earning it.
In my book, that’s trouble.
Put another way (per Dick and Bert’s discussion on FS North last night about Ayala), here’s the message we seem to get from the Twins talking heads:
(Twins Announcer): “Well, Player A was released today, but don’t worry, in addition to his mediocre performances on the field, he was a bad guy, so we don’t want guys like that around anyway. Nothing lost. Oh yeah, Albert Belle was a jerk when he played, too.”
…two innings later…
(Twins Announcer): “Well, Player B stands in…he’s 0-for-4 tonight and is now hitting .210 on the season…well, the good news is this guy has a great attitude about everything…he really works hard at it…I suspect we’ll see better results any day now…what a class act to have around…you really want to surround yourself with guys like this.”
if he likes being here, or if he scours at small children and puppies…or God forbid if he dare request a trade.
Honest question Jason…did you bother to read anything beyond the headline on the Strib’s Twins page?
Because if you took 10 seconds to click the link to the full report:
MILWAUKEE - As if the Twins weren’t frustrated enough with Luis Ayala’s pitching, the reliever helped force his way off the team by requesting a trade three weeks ago, Manager Ron Gardenhire said Tuesday.
This is probably where you stopped. Let me show you how much further you needed to go:
“He wanted an eighth-inning role; that’s why he signed here,” Gardenhire said. “His thoughts were if we gave him the ball in that eighth inning, he’d be able to do the job. My thoughts are, ‘If you’re not getting them out, you’re not going to pitch in the eighth inning.’ We’re trying to win, so there’s your difference.”
Gardy even said it wasn’t that he isn’t a good guy, it was that Ayala was more concerned about next years contract than winning.
“Hey Gardy… I know that I suck, have suck and will probably continue to suck, but will you put me in there in the 8th so other teams can get a look at me in pressure situations so I have a shot at a good contract next year?”
“Hey Ayala, if I put you in there in the 8th with a lead we will lose because you can’t keep people off the bases, can’t keep the ball in the park, can’t help but walk people, can’t strike people out, can’t get batters to ground into double plays. I don’t think that is the best role for you right now because, quite frankly, you stink!”
“Hey Gardy, I know those things are true but I really need a contract for next year so if you can’t put me in that role, then I want the Twins to trade me.”
“Hey, Ayala… you got it. Enjoy a nice paid vacation.”
I would say that is valuing winning above anything.
romer,
“Thry was just stating the conventional wisdom referring to Casilla not being the type of player normally associated with the Twins and/or Gardy.”
You may choose to see it as such, romer, but all the typical subtle inferences are there, and thrylos said he is not describing Casilla as a player with an attitude problem. But he uses phrases that portray 1)the problem: “burned bridges”, which may be untrue; 2)the condition: “under a (Gardy’s?) microscope”; and 3) the solution: “unless Gardy leaves” (because it’s Gardy’s issue, right?) Since these things aren’t a product of Casilla’s mindset and attitude, the inference is of course that the problem is due to Gardy. Clearly.
So, exactly what makes someone a “normal type” of player for the team and Gardy to associate with? There’s no such thing, really.
T,
My issue isn’t with the Strib for reporting the inside stuff…like most of you, I’ll take as much of that as I can get.
My point is it’s ancillary to what I care about most–winning. I didn’t read the comments by Gardy to mean that Ayala’s request of a trade was actually causing the Twins to lose. I took it to mean he didn’t have the attitude Gardy wanted.
Okay, noteworthy, I suppose. But is that a reason to cut a guy? Don’t we see a lot of cases where players are only mindful of themselves and money and still manage to perform like mad on the field….Manny Ramirez comes to mind.
But yeah, as for Ayala’s performance, you don’t need any other reasons–he was awful, no one will miss him.
But if he resurfaces with another team and performs well (like, say, LaTroy Hawkins), can you really come back and say ‘yeah, but we didn’t need him…he was constantly asking for a more important roll’?
Because, Jason, it wasn’t just a trade request in general; but rather it was that he was continuously dilusional thinking he was the 8th inning guy.
Yikes!
thrylos98, not that you need any moral support, but you have mine. i didn’t read any slam of Gardy in your post.
it appears that you, much like mr. casilla, are under a microscope with each post!!
scottz
FYI,
That is exactly how the conversation went… I have it on tape. Well I did but I taped over it when I recorded Lavelle III on KFAN.
Those seem like perfectly reasonable messages to me. Maybe you’re missin something. Do you understand the value of an organisation trying to staff itself with people of character?
T,
my guess is every member of that bullpen, except Joe Nathan, wants that 8th inning role deep down. Nothing wrong with wanting to be the go-to guy…the fact that he wasn’t good enough to cut it was the reason Ayala was let go.
He’ll have a chance to prove if he was good enough with another team, I imagine.
romer says:June 24th, 2009 at 2:34 pm
“Don’t know why bop is going over the top today v. thrylos. Ya have to pick your battles, bop.
Thry was just stating the conventional wisdom referring to Casilla not being the type of player normally associated with the Twins and/or Gardy.
And, again, the Twins set a higher bar because of their Division pursuit. Casilla could eventually come around somewhere, but probably not this year.”
Romer or Thrylos,
On which visit Casilla has made to the majors has he not had “concentration” type issues.
In 2008, he was able to repress it better than before or after.
So, how is this Gardy’s fault?
Maybe a Gardy recommending that Casilla have a lobotomy?
I agree with Bop, when reading Thrylos comment. It directly faulted Gardy and excused Casilla. BUT, that’s fine, just don’t act like it’s not there.
Regards,
“Do you understand the value of an organisation trying to staff itself with people of character?”
Sure, but not at the expense of winning. This isn’t high school.
But if he resurfaces with another team and performs well (like, say, LaTroy Hawkins), can you really come back and say ‘yeah, but we didn’t need him…he was constantly asking for a more important roll’?
First off: LaTroy Hawkins bounced around for two or three years before finally being at that point.
Second off: If he miraculously comes back this season and actually doesn’t suck…I’ll come back and say “yeah, but he didn’t do squat to help this team”.
His wanting a different job will have nothing to do with it. But like I said before, the guy sucked, knew he sucked, and still wanted Gardy to put him into the second most important bullpen job.
And if he didn’t get that…he wanted to leave.
I dunno about you, but I’ve worked with my fair share of people who didn’t like the job they had. And let me tell you, they’re production didn’t go UP once a confrontation such as the one Gardy/Ayala had occured.
Sure, but not at the expense of winning. This isn’t high school.
Explain to me how the decision to dump Ayala was made at the expense of winning.
thrylos98 says:June 24th, 2009 at 12:48 pm
“The problem with Casilla is that his bridge with Gardenhire (and thus with the organization) is practically all but burned. When he plays, he plays under the microscope all the time. Every missed play and error is talked about. This is not good for Casilla, this is not good for the Twins. I suspect that by the next spring training he will be wearing a different uniform (unless Gardenhire leaves)”
There’s the total quote.
Here’s the last sentence (particularly the last 3 words in parens) again for you who missed it.
“I suspect that by the next spring training he will be wearing a different uniform (unless Gardenhire leaves)”
Regards,
Oh, and another thing that I don’t think Jason is getting.
If the Twins dumped Ayala entirely because he requested a trade…why the heck did it take three weeks to dump him? He would’ve been gone then and that would’ve been it.
The fact is Ayala SUCKS. And we’re only finding out now that on top of sucking he was an a-hole.
The article doesn’t say “Ayala DFA’d because he wanted to be traded”. It says that the attitude was only one of many factors that contributed to his eventually sacking.
Jason,
What was Ayala doing on this team that you feel he was helping the team win?
I don’t know why Gardy even bothered to bring up the Ayala trade request story. He didn’t pitch well. That’s reason enough to let him go.
“His wanting a different job will have nothing to do with it.”
Thank you. That’s my point.
I would somewhat take issue with your assertion about the confrontation and what would ensue after that…I think a lot of hard workers would be motivated to prove their bosses wrong in such a circumstance.
The bottom line is we’ve cut bait with two bullpen guys in two weeks…this wasn’t an attitude overhaul, this was a talent overhaul. The “back-ups” in our lineup, which have similar sores (Tolbert, Buscher, Redmond) apparently are spared from such reality manuevers because they aren’t asking to be starters. Frankly, if I’m Buscher or Tolbert and Punto is playing in front of me, I’m asking to be a starter because I think I belong there.
T,
the headline said the trade request was likely the “final straw”.
Folks, I’m not going to bat for Ayala. He deserved to be dumped.
Anybody else thinking Casilla might get traded sometime soon?
Jason? Are you Luis Ayala?
I don’t know why Gardy even bothered to bring up the Ayala trade request story. He didn’t pitch well. That’s reason enough to let him go.
When a previous boss is called regarding an applicant, they are not really allowed much room for negativity in their feedback regarding the applicant.
If I’m somebody who’s considering getting Ayala…I look at this article and say “Wait, so he sucks…but will whine when I don’t give him the set-up role?” Forget that crap.
I think a lot of hard workers would be motivated to prove their bosses wrong in such a circumstance.
I’ve learned from witnessing it that there’s often no going back once you say something like “…or I’ll find someplace else” or “…well then I can’t work here”.
Because instead of putting it in your hands (”What can I do to prove to you I can do it.”) you put it in your bosses hands (”Do it or I leave.”).
And bosses HATE ultimatums.
the headline said the trade request was likely the “final straw”.
And that’s what we call hyperbole. We know it’s not the last straw because Ayala lasted three weeks after that.
Had it been the last straw, the headline “Ayala DFA’d” would’ve ran three weeks ago instead of Monday.
Chief,
I’m with ya 100% on that JJ thing. But even though this is a down period he ain’t gonna be cheap. But as far as I’m concerned, there’s only bout 10 guys in the whole system I’d label as untouchable.
“When a previous boss is called regarding an applicant, they are not really allowed much room for negativity in their feedback regarding the applicant.
If I’m somebody who’s considering getting Ayala…I look at this article and say “Wait, so he sucks…but will whine when I don’t give him the set-up role?” Forget that crap.”
T, that’s my point. If the Pirates are really interested in trading anything for Ayala (as has been rumored) it only hurts the Twins for Gardy to publically air his frustrations like that. All he had to say was, “Luis just didn’t get the job done.”
Haven’t heard JJ’s name in a while around here. What do people think it would take to get him?
That said, what would people be willing to part with to get him?
Because those two things (as we’ve seen) can often be worlds apart.
Joe Shore, I wish. Being a Major Leaguer would be pretty sweet.
Anything the Twins could get for Ayala wouldn’t be much more than minor league filler.
Jason,
I know who you are. You are that guy at the bar last night who introduced yourself to my wife as a Doctor. Later on you introduced yourself to my buddies wife as a Lawyer. I confronted you on it and remember what you said? You said, ‘well I should be. I know that I am a ditch-digger now, but really I think I really belong there. I really should either be a Doctor or a Lawyer’
Jason - you can’t make chicken salad out of chicken sh:t. Ayala wanted to be chicken salad… get it?
Scottz, romer,
If either of you unfairly portrayed, for example Justin Morneau, as being a bad teammate, you’d be called out on it. It just so happens that most of us are fair-minded. A few are not. Example: Kyle Lohse and JC Romero. Most of us believe they were unable to harness their ability while here because, in part, they hadn’t developed the mentality and attitude. That happens. Now, if you had a vendetta, you would find ways to fault Gardy and his staff for this, right? But that wouldn’t be a fair portrayal. But that’s your man thrylos for you.
Jason,
You have taken enough abuse for one take… I will back off… It is okay to jump on this side of the fence (the non-crazy side - - - - sorry that was another shot) and realize that Ayala was out of bounds for the request and Gardy was perfectly within his right to let Twins fans know the craziness that is Luis Ayala.
T,
I would say the Brewers are buyers, not sellers. JJ may be out of the question.
How about Brian Roberts of the O’s? Is this the year that somebody finally convinces the O’s to give it up?
Don’t the Brewers have an upcoming SS that will force JJ to 3B? His numbers aren’t as great for a 3Bman. Plus we could give them some immediate pitching help.
(Brian Roberts)
I kinda feel bad for the O’s. They have this gorgeous ballpark that no one but Red Sox and Yankee fans go to, they have a solid payroll number and they just can’t compete in the east. They have a responsibility to win and keep fan interest. Both of those things mean that they have to keep B ROB. Their depth is in the outfield. I can see them moving Wigginton, Felix Pie or Huff but none of those guys will do much for us.
Gamel is up & will be the 3B of the future or be traded to the AL to become a DH and Escobar has been playing 2B at AAA lately. I think the Brewers plan is to go with that they have right now. Keep an eye on Brett Lawrie who is on the fast track at 2B too.
In the spirit of the infield trade discussion I thought I would drag out this offseason rumor for some laughs:
Garrett Atkins for Span / Slowey
Wow.
perhaps i’m on the devil’s advocate side of life today, because now i will also defend Jason on the Ayala issue. specifically to the point that Jason never once said that Ayala should be kept on merit, but rather the request for a trade (as part of a business), should not factor in the decision. while not effective in his job, and while i agree with Gardy (if you want the 8th inning job, try getting guys out in the 6-7th innings), the request for a trade in and of itself is just a part of the business. it hadn’t been reported in the media prior to this, so that suggests that Ayala was being a professional about it - asking for the trade, but keeping it in the clubhouse - so why does that need to come out as a subtext to the DFA (and i think that’s the question Jason was asking…not that it isn’t worth reporting, but why tie it to the DFA?).
I can see them moving Wigginton, Felix Pie or Huff but none of those guys will do much for us.
No no. Wigginton would. Afterall, Smith was a fool for passing on Wiggy for so cheap.
To change the subject since lineups aren’t up yet, I think Mauer is going to get the day off tonight.
I feel this way for 3 reasons:
1. He’ll get either today or tomorrow off anyway.
2. He’s gone 0-fer the last 2 games and hasn’t gotten a hit since his 14th HR on Saturday.
3. He took a beating handling 172 pitches last night.
I would like to see Morales catch tonight instead of just be saved for PH duty.
T.
Good one. Fat Wiggy rolling his way to a stadium near you.
Hopefully the Twins can make a move that makes sense. Hopefully they will suprise us but unless we make another DELMON type trade (overpaying) they probably wont.
birdofprey,
if thrylos has faulted Gardy before, then he has (as have i and others). i just didn’t see it in this particular post.
i don’t think it’s a fair portrayal to blame the manager for every young prospect’s ability or inability once they reach the major league level. obviously, a player’s attitude and mental maturity play a major role. i also don’t think it’s fair to say that a manager could have no influence on getting the best out of young prospects. i don’t blame Gardy for Casilla not getting it, or Lohse, or Romero. but in the case of Casilla, i don’t think that thrylos was either. he was stating an opinion that Casilla burned a bridge with Gardy (and therefore, the organization). from what i’ve read, i don’t think that is an illogical opinion.
thoughts?
scottz
Sweet1,
Doubtful, Joe is 3-3 with a bomb and 2 RBI’s career off Looper.
Tomorrow will be the day… we will be facing a rookie pitcher who Morales has probably seen.
Scottz,
I don’t think there is much question that Casilla has Gardy flustered. But burning a bridge implies that there is no going back. I don’t think that is the case. Gardy did say that the things coming out of Casilla’s mouth left him “speechless” though and that isn’t a good sign. Hopefully Alexi snaps out of it soon. He was a lot of fun down the stretch last year.
Joe,
You may be right. I just feel that with the beating that he took last night in the heat and humidity he may need the night off even though he has hit Looper well.
scottz,
I think his tude was definitely tied to the DFA. And I believe it should be considered in who stays and who goes. If an employee tells me he’s lookin for a better job I think “Good for him.” But do I spend money training him? And when someones gotta go, and all other things are equal, guess who gets whacked. This data made the choice of Ayala over Henn make sense to me.
S1,
You might be right… that was a tough one for him…. And I thought it was painful for me to WATCH Frankie (et al.) last night… poor Joe.
scottz, you choose to see it that way, and you do so honestly, and I respect that.
Gardy does a lot of things that drive me crazy, and I’m not a big fan of Smith’s either, so I don’t object to criticism of them, or of any player. I occasionally call people out when they can’t back up their criticism. A couple people get called out a lot by me because of this.
Dragon — “It directly faulted Gardy and excused Casilla.”
thrylos98 had merely said — “The problem with Casilla is that his bridge with Gardenhire (and thus with the organization) is practically all but burned.”
It’s almost always the lesser of two entities who gets blamed for burning a bridge (meaning connection and/or opportunity).
And he said “The problem with Casilla…”
So I don’t get what any of you are getting at.
Unless it’s thry’s previous Gardy bashing.
He sure knows how to work people up though.
“his bridge” infers Casilla was burning his opportunity with the Twins.
“This data made the choice of Ayala over Henn make sense to me.”
Henn’s here because he’s a lefty, simple as that. Frankly, he better start impressing someone or he’s next. I think Henn is officially our long relief when losing guy.
romer,
I mean no offense, but one of my pet peeves is the confusion over imply and infer.
A speaker implies. A listener infers.
Again no offense intended. I have great respect for you.
“Henn’s here because he’s a lefty, simple as that.”
No. He’s here because Ayala was cut loose. Even though he had better numbers AND had walked the walk before.
why always take joe so long to post lineups? lavelle is a lot quicker…
Adam,
I always thought Joe was generally the quicker one. If Joe doesn’t have the lineups up it is because Gardy hasn’t submitted them yet. Probably waiting on Kubel.
la velle would have had them up at 3:30
Gardy is dealing with lots of injuries right now…the lineup is probably late because Gardy is seeing who is available.
I can’t believe this — it is two full hours before game time and this free website hasn’t posted something (lineups) which really doesn’t matter in the world. I’m writing my congresswoman!
Ayala DID NOT WANT TO BE HERE if he wasn’t the setup-man.
Have any of you ever tried to coach players who DON’T WANT TO BE ON THE TEAM?
THAT is why he is gone.
His performance level (lately) justified keeping him.
The cures for cancer are SURGICAL REMOVAL or destruction of the cancer cells.
Someone on your team who wants out (asks to be traded) is a cancer that must be removed to prevent the cancer from spreading.
A disgusting, but accurate analogy, IMO.
Hey thanks, Paul.
“I knew that.” Actually I did. And my English teacher mom is proud of both of us!
romer: thrylos’s comments directly state that the problem with Casilla is how Gardy supposedly handles him…as written:
This is not good for Casilla, this is not good for the Twins.
He then follows it with the accusation that Casilla will be lost unless the Twins choose to fire Gardy.
I suspect that by the next spring training he will be wearing a different uniform (unless Gardenhire leaves)
There is nothing to infer, as thrylos has directly stated the issue.
1) Casilla’s attitude clashes with Gardy.
2) This is because he plays in an unhealthy atmosphere.
3) This will lead to Casilla leaving the Twins unless Gardy is removed.
T,
correct,
but I never said #2 above. That is your leap of faith.
