Postgame update: Punto’s MRI shows no structural damage
Posted on June 25th, 2009 – 6:37 PMBy Joe Christensen
MILWAUKEE — Twins second baseman Nick Punto will rejoin the team in St. Louis on Friday after returning to Minnesota on Thursday for an MRI exam, which showed no structural damage in his left rib cage area.
General Manager Bill Smith said Punto is day-to-day. Punto, who has raised his batting average from .187 to .224 this month, suffered the injury on a head-first slide into first base on Saturday against Houston and has missed three of the past four games.
NOTE: La Velle is our point man in St. Louis, so head to his blog for lineups and other updates.
207 Responses to "Postgame update: Punto’s MRI shows no structural damage"
Stop sliding into first base!
Punto’s MRI shows no structural damage
In the ribs I take it… They should have done a brain scan, because that’s where his problem is.
BS couldn’t have slipped the Dr a couple of bucks to get him to sit down with Punto, look him in the eyes and say something like, “Nick, I’m going to clear you to play, but I have to warn you. We’ve discovered a rare condition in your ribs that, under normal circumstances, would have no ill effects on you. However, if you EVER slide head first again, it could kill you.”?
It’s very clear that if LNP ever slides into first again he will die.
While I do agree that they should have done a brain scan one does wonder how you could commit the millions they did to him for a guy who is too stupid to stop doing something that a)provides no advantage or b) puts his millions at risk due to injury.
LNP is too dumb to have been entrusted with that amount of money.
Dumb and Dumber….
there are no MRI machines in Milwaukee?
Gomez slid into first last Friday, but it was to avoid a tag on a bunt to the 1B man.
It looks like the second baseman of the near future for the Twins is Mike Cuddyer, which actually might not be as bad as I first thought it might be: it allows Gomez and Young to play every day and makes Punto a super utility guy. Hey, I hope Cuddyer lives up to the task defensively. What a brilliant thought by Gardenhire.
It sounds to me like everyone is in a bitch and moan mood, even tho the Twins won today. Jeez people. I’m no expert, but I don’t gripe about much, except my age.
Ha! Thrylos can barely contain himself.
My empathy to you, man.
There has been more than one AAA guy come up for the Twins and be hot hot for a couple weeks. A lot of ‘em were infielders.
It’s gonna be roasting in StLou and KC. Might have to do some in-game platooning. And Cuddy is definitely one of the highest candidates for heat exhaustion.
Gotta have a full 25. Punto should be on the DL unless he has an overnight recovery.
DrDon,
look at the standings…
romer,
you hear it here first: The Twins will sweep the Redbirds in St Louis.
No worries
romer, I heard that Bill Smith is trying to get contact with thrylos, sane, you, and me. I have your number, have passed it on. I had an 11 day recovery, and am pretty healthy. And, I love heat!!!!!!!!!!
Doc, it just looks like a tough stretch coming.
No they won’t thry, they are still pissed at the 87 World Series there.
My point, romer.
tough stretch?
Nah. Gardy has figured it all out. Show some faith. Cuddy at second, Delmon at SS, Nicky with his rocket arm and doctor-certified healthy prime ribs at RF. All is good
thry, You are on a roll, Gotta Love It!!!!!!!!
and, DrDon,
(since you are the specialist) Can we have your medical opinion on Albert Pooholes?
DrDon,
what do you think of Albert Pujols? (isn’t that your specialty?)
Thry is pissed. I can’t blame him.
Remember the talk that you aren’t supposed to “reinvent the game” out their on the field? Now Gardy/Smith (or maybe it’s Smith/Gardy) look to be doing that IN ADVANCE of a game.
Not a good example for the boys, huh.
But, in a curious way, it’s interesting and entertaining, Doc. I’m mellow with it.
And if Smith contacts me, I’ll send him to thry.
At least I was never a Michael Jackson fan.
romer,
I am not pissed
really
at first, I was afraid, I was petrified.
kept thinking I could never live
but I spent so many nights
thinking how theydid me wrong
I grew strong
I learned how to carry on…
Thry, we KNOW YOU will survive.
It’s Gardy and DocDon who are in danger.
:)>
In all seriousness now:
I meant that when I said that it was a good move.
Since the last off season I have said that Cuddyer should be the odd man out in the outfield. I have been suggesting since the 2008 offseason that Cuddyer should play 3B. I think that offensively if Cuddyer is instilled at 2B he will be one of the top 5 second basemen in the bigs. That would allow the Twins to have the optimal outfield (DY at right, please) and relegate Punto to a utility role. My initial comment was not all that sarcastic…
Really
Thry, we KNOW YOU will survive.
Wait for the bird poop on that one 
Wainwright, Wellemeyer, and Pineiro to start for the RBirds. So, no Lohse or Carpenter (unless Lohse plays some 2B).
Wellemeyer has the high ERA while the other two look good on paper (low ERA’s). So I’m looking for another Slowey W on Saturday.
So we all wait to see if Perkins will back up his manager and make tomorrow’s game a low-scoring one (in this “low-scoring series”). Because Sunday’s Liriano v. Pineiro looks iffy.
Oh……Lohse is on the DL.
I know I sound nerdy, but I’m saying to win the series the Twins must win tomorrow.
G’Night.
“”"romer says:
June 25th, 2009 at 8:47 pm
Thry, we KNOW YOU will survive.
It’s Gardy and DocDon who are in danger.”"”
romer, I do NOT have to worry about being fired from my job, I already QUIT. 
p.s. I met too many you know whats.
Doc,
:)>
romer…back at ya, and best to your gal, she is super.
I once was at a Twins game and saw LNP slide head first into every base including home plate. At that point I decided that it was only OK for him to slide into first regardless of what happens. He was also batting over .300 at the time so maybe that had something to do with it too.
“Punto’s MRI shows no structural damage”
Damn It.
Yeah Romer, your gal is super…At least she was this morning…
thry…forget the pipe dream about Cuddyer playing second.
We all know LNP will be back in the saddle, starting tonight.
The batting average jump from .187 to .224 is hardly inspiring. He still has no ability to get an extra base hit without the aid of the opponent’s stupidity.
Punto fans rejoice, he’s back. And he’s not back to sit on the bench, either, we know that much.
Honestly, how come gardenhire can’t just bench punto every game after he slides into first base.. he’s been told not to, and doesn’t listen.. maybe if it effects his playing time he’ll change his idiot ways.
Joe C-Is Valencia the answer in 2010,or should we try to negotiate a 2 year extension for Crede?
Are the Twins finally going to get serious about Punto sliding into first base and fine him when he does it? Seriously, they are paying him WAY too much money anyway, and then he can’t stay on the field because he hurts himself sliding into first base for the 93rd time this year. I say $10,000 every time he slides into first.
detroit now has won 7 straight going into houston tonite …someone needs to take these guys down a bit or this could get ugly soon, thats why at this time the twins cant afford to lose any more ground than the 5 games they are behind now…i dont like to panic, but i know how fast 5 can become 10 and then its almost impossible to make up..so lets hope gardy and his troops feel the same way and take every pitch very seriously…would be nice to see the twins put together a run of 6-7 games, but i dont know if they have done any better than even 4 straight..time to make this season count, starting tonite…go twins…
thrylos:
“Since the last off season I have said that Cuddyer should be the odd man out in the outfield. Wait for the bird poop on that one ”
If you’re gonna stare up at pie in the sky, your gonna get some whitewash in your eye.
Sure glad Gardenhire doesn’t come up with brilliant ideas like yours. But I suppose you deserve credit for stepping away from your recent suggestion that they release Cuddyer. Your credibility is not as severely damaged by going back to your slightly less ridiculous idea of moving him permanently to the infield.
And yeap. Cuddaver is the fourth best choice for the three outfield spots. Really. Yeap.
He still has no ability to get an extra base hit without the aid of the opponent’s stupidity.
Is that really so bad from a NUMBER NINE hitter?
——-
Whatever the case, for those of you thinking that Smith is clueless, go talk to Wolves fans this morning.
Stephan Curry would look pretty good in a Wolves jersey…but nope.
I should add that Cuddy at second would be considered a pipe dream only because you’d have to be smoking something to think it’s a good idea.
When’s the last time he played that position? 2003? Twins tried Cuddy in the infield…if I recall it was a disaster.
“Twins tried Cuddy in the infield…if I recall it was a disaster.”
Yeah, T, but back then, it wasn’t suggested by thrylos. Now it’s a brilliant idea.
My concern with Punto has nothing to do with the head first slides. If he continues his recent trend of hitting on top of the ball instead of underneath it, I’m fine with him being the regular second baseman (given the current options). You can argue that a guy with his contract should produce more XBHs or whatever, but I separate contract issues out… they are a totally different discussion than whether or not a particular player is the best option for a given position at a specific point in the season.
Was giving him that contract a good move? Certainly questionable. But you can’t change the past and the fact is that he’s one of the options to play 2B right now. Unless/until someone not currently on the roster shows up, he’s clearly the best option right now.
As for Cuddyer playing 2B, I have to believe even Gardy considers him an “emergency” 2B.
Of course, the definition of “emergency” could vary from “everyone else in the country who knows how to play the position is dead” to “the only other option is Tolbert”.
JC,
I don’t agree with “what’s done is done” on the Punto contract thing. I’ve been saying this since the second week of April–two wrongs don’t make a right.
Gardy benched Brendan Harris in favor of Punto for two months this year. Look how incredibily wrong (and / or stubborn) that looks now. I agree that unfortunately with the current makeup of the roster Punto is our best option at second base. But for me that’s a far cry from “we have our second baseman”. I think Bill Smith should continue to look for other middle infield options (if he hasn’t already).
The trio of Punto / Tolbert / Buscher is going to catch up to us sooner or later. I say keep Punto as a utility player, find a real second baseman to replace Tolbert, and then find a right-handed bat to replace Buscher on the bench. If they won’t do that, the least they could do is adopt Gardy’s early season Brendan Harris approach and find a real second baseman to replace Tolbert, keep Punto as your starter, and then we’ll wait it out however many weeks it takes to realize Punto is a utility player.
None of this involves Cuddy playing 2B, which I think isn’t on the Twins’ minds.
JimCrikkit, you’re right in talking about options here. The 2B options have all been less than ideal: Harris, Casilla, Tolbert, Punto…and now Cuddyer (as an emergency option only). We’d all love it if Tolleson was a permanent solution this season, and he might be, but we should probably temper our expectations about his readiness and maybe his defense.
The ideal situation for the Twins is to have Punto as a utility player. Harris has moved ahead of Punto at short (a good thing), but Punto should legitimately be playing at second over what has been shown by the other options.
I think the Twins should pay the price and get Freddy Sanchez from Pittsburgh or Clint Barmes from the Rockies, if Colorado falls back to non-contending status (as most expect). Barmes is either a second baseman or shortstop and isn’t paid much money, but is doing very well hitting in the #2 spot for Colorado.
Gardy talked about Tolleson this morning on KSTP and said he isn’t ready to play at the major league level defensively. He said he’s a great hitter though. He also said SS is the position he is most comfortable with and that he has a hard time turning double plays when he’s playing second.
Anyone notice Jesse Crain’s ERA at Rochester: 6.75.
jason:
“The trio of Punto / Tolbert / Buscher is going to catch up to us sooner or later.”
The sky is not falling, my friend. I really think you’re obsessing. The production has been bad at 2B, but it hasn’t been a huge factor in terms of ins and losses, in my view. One of the three, Casilla, Punto, or Tolbert, could easily revert to their mean. There are much bigger problems with the eighth inning and consistency from either Gomez or Young.
Gardy does make the situation worse, I think, with his maddening insistence on sticking with his philosophy of having a speedy “table-setter” in the two-hole.
birdofprey,
I think you missed my point. I wasn’t just talking about second base. When you put Punto in as your starter at second, leaving Tolbert as your utility guy and Buscher as your I-don’t-know-what guy, you end up minimizing three spots on the roster.
A weak second baseman wouldn’t be all bad if you had a strong utility player…what we have now is a strong utility player standing in as a starter and two enormous question marks on the bench. That isn’t good.
Someone still needs to tell me I’m all wet when I say it would be a lot more ideal to find a right-handed bench bat to replace Buscher–a guy who could pinch hit for Kubel in a key spot and backup Morneau and Crede with adequate defensive ability.
Jason, I’m all for BS bringing in an upgrade at 2B, I’m just saying that I separate the contract issue from the playing time NOW issue. I don’t see a better option NOW than Punto at 2B, especially if he continues the hitting (even without XBH) he’s been doing this month. He’s a #9 (or #8 in IL play) hitter. A bunch of singles are fine with me in that role.
With that, I’m out of here. I just made my last Executive Decision of the week… namely that this executive has decided to go home, pack a bag, get in the car and head south… to St. Louis. I hear there are a couple of ballgames that might be worth watching down there tonight and tomorrow.
See y’all!
If JimCrikket wants to get there by game time, he had better at least be living in Iowa City.
I think he lives near the Quad Cities…wow, to have JC’s life.
Cedar Rapids… If I get outta town by 1, I’m in good shape!
Now, I’m REALLY gone.
cuddy has played 2nd in 60 gms at the “major league level” none since 05. however, no need to panic until he trys it a few games it may not be that bad. we could use another run producing bat in the lineup.
i’d much rather give up a little d at 2nd with cuddy to get gomez or dy’s bat in the lineup over nicky’s.
Jason,
“find a right-handed bench bat to replace Buscher”
From one opinion-repeater to another, how about Mark Grudzielanek?
YEAR BA
‘03 .314
‘04 .307
‘05 .294
‘06 .297
‘07 .302
‘08 .299
I am starting to get the idea that he can hit, and he destroys LH pitching.
The draft is over and we would not be required to surrender a draft pick.
He would probably sign for $1 million. (pro-rated)
Someone please explain to me what there is to lose.
jason:
“birdofprey, I think you missed my point. I wasn’t just talking about second base.”
I get the issue and agree, but we’re probably going to have to live with “internal” options. I don’t see a trade happening during the season, although I’d love to see someone like JJ Hardy on the cheap. Tolleson, I’m guessing, is next year’s 2B. Next year’s SS HAS to be a trade acquisition. If not, I become Smith’s enemy. What I’m saying is that it’s not that big of a problem to have slightly sub-optimal production from Buscher, Tolbert, and Punto, as long as the offensive production at 2B and in the two hole improves at least marginally.
Sane,
Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t MG getting pretty old?
ES16,
Grudz is getting old (38..39 next Tuesday), but he hit .299 last year and .302 the year before that.
I am suggesting a 2009 contract only.
I don’t get why Cuddy at 2nd is so laughable. It would be tough to switch gears this year, but why not in 2010? The one year Cuddy played some 2B he was not terrible in the field (UZR/150 = -4.8; comparable to Luis Castillo and Orlando Hudson this year). There was talk of him bulking up following his utility role, but his ISOs (power) have been similar through the IF to OF transition. I know it would be tough for Gardy to accept a slow guy at 2B, but the offense provided more than makes up for that shortcoming. Not to mention that Delmon would get his ABs in RF.
Span LF
Harris SS
Mauer C
Morneau 1B
Kubel DH
Cuddyer 2B
Crede 3B
Young RF
Gomez CF
Not a bad batting order.
Harris-Cuddyer at SS-2B?
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
The only downside to signing MG is that we all know if healthy Punto wont sit.
“The only downside to signing MG is that we all know if healthy Punto wont sit”
Still no downside with Grudz available to PH, DH, backup 2B, or start at 2B against LHP.
Beats Tolbert and Buscher.
sane, hate to be a spoil sport, if that is tonight’s lineup, but tonight we are in Cardinal Country, no DH.
How bout Valencia for Crede at 3B in sane’s lineup for 2010.
I can’t remember: was Cuddyer a disaster at 2B defensively? Or was it just that his offense sucked everywhere they played him until he went out to right field?
alright? so in 2010, or sooner perhaps as some here would like. cuddyer is going to play second, harris at short, morneau at first, and very soon the talk of moving mauer to third will resume i’m guessing. crede certainly won’t be offered a long term deal here.
Ya, they will hit. They will also make playing defense a slow moving circus. Maybe that would work if they grow the infield grass at target field like the rough in the u.s.open.
Doc,
“if that is tonight’s lineup”
No.
It’s only for AL parks.
sane,
Lineup looks good. But howbout adding an extra IF and going with just Span and Gomez in the OF?
agree with sane at 12:18…at least they would do something to show everyone they understand the issue…we know Punto won’t be benched…I’m not even striving for that anymore.
WJ: Cuddyer at 2B: .254/.322/.448 (15 XBH in 151 PAs) UZR/150 = -4.8.
Twins 2B this year: 12 XBHs in 315 PAs.
The only downside to signing MG is that we all know if healthy Punto wont sit
Except for last year when Everett and Harris were the starting MIF and it took Harris being ineffective on defense, Everett getting hurt, and Casilla struggling to finally get Punto in the starting lineup on a regular basis.
I know it would be tough for Gardy to accept a slow guy at 2B
The Cuddy Experiement at 2B would be the most awesome thing to happen to these boards until about the 2nd or 3rd game when he makes a few errors and costs the team a win.
Then it’d be right back to normal.
No track record for that T. Just no range.
sane,
Lineup looks good. But howbout adding an extra IF and going with just Span and Gomez in the OF?
You’re normally so good at responding to questions. You don’t consider this question rhetorical do you?
Paul,
“Lineup looks good. But howbout adding an extra IF and going with just Span and Gomez in the OF?…You don’t consider this question rhetorical do you?”
Sorry.
I got side-tracked internet shopping.(Joe Mauer’s Quick Swing replacement parts)
The extra infielder would remove Delmon from the batting order, defeating the whole purpose of having Cuddyer butcher 2B.
So I am hoping for “rhetorical”.
for me the bigger concern is that this has been a .500 club for 2 1/2 years now. gardy makes his “adjustments” but they are basically the same rehashed ideas that continue to maintain a .500 club. maybe it’s time to try something outside his normal frame of adjusting. cuddy at 2nd would be outside the norm.
Here’s what I don’t get:
1) It appears Cuddyer at 1B is an option that is not too popular, and is considered him playing out of position.
2) 1B (as I understand it) is primarily about catching throws of various types from your IF, while also occasionally ranging to your left to make plays. There’s some ranging to the right, but traditionaly that’s if you are playing off the line.
3) Cuddyer is apparently not good enough to play 1B…but yet would be qualified to play 2B, which as I understand it is all about ranging from left to right.
Not to mention you’re not asking a guy used to rifling a ball from RF into the infield to shorten his throw to go from 2B to 1B. If I’m in the 1B bleachers when Cuddy’s at second I’ve got my helmet on…
Oops. My mistake. I was thinking right and left as it looks from the batter’s box, not the fielder looking in.
maybe it’s time to try something outside his normal frame of adjusting. cuddy at 2nd would be outside the norm.
Maybe we should move Mauer to 3B, have Morneau go back to catching, and have Crede over at 3B while we’re at it.
Cuddy is about 15 pounds heavier than he was the last time he played second base, not to mention his reaction time has probably slowed a bit. Oh, and let’s not forget, the Twins tried him there before and it didn’t work… What makes anyone think it could work now.
T: I’m talking about 2010 thus giving Cuddy an offseason to readjust. A switch right now would likely be a disaster as you point out.
I’m almost sold on the Cuddy at 2B experiment if nothing else it would help the OF defense by moving Delmon to RF and Span to LF.
Age sounds like a legitmate issue, Cuddyer’s range would likely be worse. As for his time at 2B in 2004, it was probably a result of trying to get him on the field because of what? Too many outfielders.
Anyway, this weekend should provide an example of what Cuddy at 2B would look like. Cardinals 2B, Skip Schumaker, is a career outfielder playing 2B for the first time this year. Lets see how that looks.
great point T let’s keep doing what has made us a .500 team and hope the division really sucks so we have a chance.
great point T let’s keep doing what has made us a .500 team and hope the division really sucks so we have a chance.
Generally when you make the a change the idea is that you’re doing it to improve the team.
And I’ve yet to see anybody explain to me how Cuddyer would be an improvement at 2B when he hasn’t played there in nearly 5 years. Hence why I comparred it to putting Morneau at catcher.
I mean, Morneau DID play some catcher in the minors right. So naturally he should be able to just jump right back behind the plate and be ready to go.
I acknowledge 2010 would be better T. Why not then?
Here’s the problem:
RUNS SCORED LAST 30 DAYS - AL:
07. 120 - White Sox
08. 117 - Tigers
09. 109 - Twins
10. 106 - Mariners
11. 106 - Orioles
12. 105 - Athletics
13. 104 - Rangers
14. 095 - Royals
The Twins are not a potent offensive force anymore. In the Central, they outscore only KC.
What’s hurt is Mauer and Morneau each hitting .200 the last 7 days.
And of course Gardy isn’t raising the white flag. But it could be lying on the bench beside him, as Gardy has stated this will be a low-scoring series.
T I think someone did prove why Cuddy at 2b would be an improvement.
OB says:
June 26th, 2009 at 12:49 pm
Twins 2B this year: 12 XBHs in 315 PAs
” explain to me how Cuddyer would be an improvement at 2B when he hasn’t played there in nearly 5 years”
The “improvement” is to the batting order.
The degradation is playing Cuddyer defensively at 2B instead of the non-hitting fielding wizards there now.
That’s true romer, I think that also suggests that when (not if) M&M start hitting again, the lineup is in good shape.
Middle infielders typically see their range begin to decline in their early 30s. Given that Cuddy will be 31 on opening day 2010 and hasn’t played an infield position for several years, it seems pretty counterproductive to move him back to the infield.
If the goal is to upgrade at second and reduce the outfield logjam, it makes more sense to make a trade if the Twins don’t think they have anyone suitable down on the farm. There is a reason why teams rarely solve position shortages by moving players between the infield and outfield.
That should be the case, sane, but those wizards ain’t been conjuring up no outs.
I acknowledge 2010 would be better T. Why not then?
That would be the best time if they were to try it. But then you’re waiting until then you haven’t actually solved the problem NOW. And by the time 2010 comes around who knows what other changes have been made to the team that would make it a pointless endeavor.
The degradation is playing Cuddyer defensively at 2B instead of the non-hitting fielding wizards there now.
And I have concerns that even with Cuddy’s “extra power” at 2B that the weakened defense could lead to a potential wash.
My thinking too, OB.
But it sure would be nice to get some production out of 2B. Maybe Tolbert is more the prototypical NL player and he’ll keep in going in Saint Lou.
How did Casilla do yesterday?
You guys keep talking about how Cuddy at 2B would improve the lineup, but he’s already in the lineup. All you would be doing is swapping Punto/Tolbert for Delmon/Gomez. Is that really much of an upgrade? Not to mention that you will obviously be giving up some defense at 2B. I just don’t see why this is such an issue. If Delmon and Gomez were lighting it up and we wanted to find a way to get their bats in the lineup every day I could understand, but neither one of them could hit their way out of an egg shell.
Gotta have a tight defense in these low-scoring NL games.
I just don’t see Cuddy having the instantaneous reactions and ability to turn those flash-DP’s.
The idea of Cuddy starting at 2B is preposterous. We can only cross our fingers and hope nothing gets hit his way.
This definitely ain’t the Twins way.
Did I read something in LaVelle’s minor league report about Luke Hughes possibly switching to 2B? I have no idea what his defense is like, but he supposedly can hit. How about him in 2010 with Valencia at 3B?
That “extra power” don’t need no quotes. It is legitimate. Cuddyer’s lack of range hurts in RF too, the only way to hide it is at DH (that goes for anyone). As for his arm, I’d imagine it may be an asset when turning two with a runner barreling in.
Also, this notion that the twins have had good defense at 2B is a fallacy. Punto’s been the best of em, but note he’s a year older than Cuddyer. Perhaps it should not be surprising that his range, and thus his UZR/150, has decreased.
All the reports say Hughes is a poor defender. He would obviously be an offensive upgrade, however.
I believe that was the report on Tolleson too.
Actually, Jake, it’s swapping –at the plate — Tolbert/Punto for Gomez.
And I’ll disagree with you some and say I might like to see that. But it’s a high-risk gamble (re Cuddy’s D) for questionable results (Gomez over Tolbert). And all three of StL’s starters are right-handers.
So there’s probably no upside for such a switch.
I’d think they’ll see how Tolbert/Punto do tonight, and Gardy can play his psychological games with La Russa later this weekend.
“we know Punto won’t be benched”
This is a common mantra out here. It’s understandable, but I think it’s misguided. Punto will be “benched”, but not until there is a better option, in Gardy’s opinion, not yours or mine. If Gardy thought Harris was the better option going into the season at SS, he would have announced that Harry was his starting SS, knowing Smith was not going to get him an outside player for SS. Punto proved Gardy wrong, that’s all. And Punto is starting at 2B because Casilla proved him wrong. This favorites stuff is much truer when applied to you an I than it is when applied to Gardy. Hands up for those who “favor” Young over Cuddyer, please. I rest my case, Your Honor.
I don’t know romer, I’ll go out on a limb and say that Tolbert is only a marginal improvement over Cuddy at 2B. If that is true, Gomez is marginally better than Tolbert at the plate and (Span LF, Gomez, CF, Young RF, Cuddy 2B) is at least a wash vs. (Young LF, Span CF, Cuddy RF, and Tolbert 2B) in the field.
“Punto will be “benched”, but not until there is a better option”
bop, how does that explain the first two months of the season when Punto started and Harris rode the pine?
Punto didn’t prove anyone wrong…he pretty much delivered exactly what we expected. Harris, on the other hand, proved Gardy wrong. And he did so not unexpectedly–Harris was a .276 hitter averaging 9.5 HR, 32 doubles, and 3 triples over his last two full seasons heading into this year.
Conclusion: It was, in fact, against-the-odds favortism.
Punto, conversely, was a .240 hitter averaging 1.5 HR, 18.5 doubles and 4 triples (not to mention 26.5 RBI) in his last two seasons heading into this year.
This is a wierd conversation. Where did the thought of Cuddy to 2B come from?
In Denny Green’s words, “Punto is who we thought he was”…
“na, na, Punto is who we thought he was…we had him in 2007…he hit .210…we had him in 2008…he hit .284 with no power and 28 RBI…everybody played two seasons…who the heck takes two seasons like it’s (bleep). That’s (bleep)…he is who we thought he was…and that’s why we let him take the damn field (for $8.5 mil over two years)….now if you wanna crown him, then crown his ass…but he his who we thought he was…and Harris let him off the hook”
Paul, Joe C’s previous blog entry says Gardy might use Cuddyer at 2B this weekend if Punto is still too sore to play.
I really doubt it, though. It sounds like more of an emergency scenario.
emergency scenario = Tolbert and Buscher continuing to remain on roster
“This favorites stuff is much truer when applied to you an I than it is when applied to Gardy.”
bop when you look at the long list of players that are no longer twins, looking at how gardy used them and comments he made about them and the fact they are no longer with the team could lead one to believe that your statement is not entirely true.
however, that remains gardy’s right as long as he is the manager and it gives us stuff to bitch about.
Thanks Benny. Sometimes when I skim read bizzare stuff don’t register.
Watch Skip Schumaker this weekend. That’s Cuddy at 2B.
If Gardy wants to roll the dice with his middle infield defense, I’d like to see what Cuddy can do at 2B. But you all know how Gardy is about middle infield defense.
Yes indeed Benny. I’ve made the argument for Cuddy at 2B. In no way do I expect it to happen.
“But you all know how Gardy is about middle infield defense.”
Harris starting at SS indicates a shift in Gardy’s thinking.
Let’s try Delmon at second base. I’d love to see him turn a double play.
sane, Harris and Cuddy up the middle would be a complete 180.
Let’s try rational debate based on facts. I’d love to see ES16 and T debate the finer points of Kant.
bop, how does that explain the first two months of the season when Punto started and Harris rode the pine?
You mean those two months where Casilla played his way out of the starting lineup and Harris hit his way in?
Let’s try Delmon at second base. I’d love to see him turn a double play.
Do you mean “turn every play into a double”
Punto’s been the best of em, but note he’s a year older than Cuddyer.
But unlike Cuddy, Punto’s been playing the infield on a regular basis.
Yeah, T, Cuddy would be very ugly at 2B. No question about that.
Benny W,
“Harris and Cuddy up the middle would be a complete 180″
You’ve got that right.
Todd Walker (or Tony Batista) would have to come back as the infielder’s coach.
I hereby award PoD to Jason (2:38 post).
As for Cuddyer, if he gets moved to second, there would be no opportunity over the coming winter to argue about moving him to 3rd.
Whatever would we talk about on the blogs??
“You mean those two months where Casilla played his way out of the starting lineup and Harris hit his way in?”
Punto was hitting .187…if that’s not playing your way out of a lineup, I don’t know what is.
OB: You’re asking me to go back to my second year philosphy course on that one. I’d need a refresher.
In a somewhat related (though not entirely connected point), could God throw a pitch so fast that not even Joe Mauer could hit it?
Do you mean “turn every play into a double”
That’s exactly right. It would be funny at first, then it would just be sad and pathetic. Kind of like when you were in elementary school and you pulled the wings off a fly and watched it try to get around.
Punto was hitting .187…if that’s not playing your way out of a lineup, I don’t know what is.
And at that point if I’m not mistaken Punto was on his way to the DL, Casilla was on his way to the minors, and Tolbert was the starting 2B for a period…
Casilla played his way out of the lineup with his bat AND his glove though…that’s your difference.
Just poking fun… Kant is largely indecipherable to me. As for God, his fastball is quantumly engineered to instantaneously appear in the catcher’s mitt. Good luck Joe.
ES16: I was the guy that once somebody did that…would come over the put the fly out of its misery.
Ah, but a pitch that appears in the catcher’s mitt has never crossed the plate and thus was never in the K-Zone.
Thus if the player is wise enough they will refrain from swinging and allow the ball to simply appear for the walk.
Though I imagine God would be his own catcher…which really sets up the more appropriate phrasing: “Can God throw a ball so fast that not even he could catch it?”
Watching the Sux/Cubs game on WGN.
Contrares looks awesome. 93 FB with a huge curve.
I know a way we can kill two birds with one stone. Let’s trade Cuddyer & maybe Butcher & Tolbert to Pittsburg to get Sanchez for our 2nd baseman and then we will have our preferred outfield of Span in left, GoGo in center and Delmon in right (or switch Span & Delmon). I think we could really improve our defense and offense and still have Punto on the pine as the utility infielder that he is. What say you?
Minnesota Cat, I say go for it.
Pittsburgh might not.
Do the Pirates need OF help? Are they going to take on a contract like Cuddy’s?
That trade smacks of the classic “Take a bunch of players we don’t like and throw them at a team for a guy we do”.
Hey, I’ve got a general question here. Can someone(s) try to explain to me what a “natural” position means. I’ve heard it applied to Delmon in RF and Harris at SS. Does that mean they are genetically predisposed to that position? Does it mean they played there in a past life? Did their parents warp their minds so other positions are “too hard”? Did it take so much oomph on their part to learn their natural position that they can’t learn another?
I think a lot depends upon the umpire, T. Might they just assume that God thru the ball too fast for them to see and trust the catcher’s framing of the pitch?
T
That’s exactly what this trade is all about but I think it could work for both teams (especially the Twins).
the Minnesota Cat,
No, they should try to trade Delmon to the Pirates, it might be our only chance to get rid of him. Hey, if they like Monroe, they’re gonna love Delmon.
Throw in Ayala, too. You know the Pirates love him.
“I was the guy that once somebody did that…would come over the put the fly out of its misery.”
I wish you could do the same for Delmon…
I’ll take a stab at it Paul. I’d say that a “natural” position may be learned at a young age. Given that, some people may more readily retrain their muscle memory than others. As such, the people who can retrain more effectively might be those who don’t have a “natural” position whereas those who struggle retraining said muscles may have a “natural” position.
Referring to the Sux’ 3B Beckham, WGN’s Steve Stone says “We’ve seen a lot of balls down the line the last couple weeks” (meaning a lot of doubles down the line).
So the Sux miss Crede.
Thanks OB. I thought my question might have come across a little too snide. (One of my many character flaws.) Your answer makes sense. Still kinda sad for a ML player. Thanks for taken a crack at it.
whatever the trouble is it must be delmon’s fault!
“As for God, his fastball is quantumly engineered to instantaneously appear in the catcher’s mitt.”
Just saw one of those Nat Geographic programs about the nature of matter and the universe. The guy said it’s the repulsive nature of electrons of atoms that keeps clumps of matter from combining together — as in a ball becoming part of a bat.
In that instance, he says, the ball never touches the bat.
Don’t know what Kant would say about *that*. But it reinforces that you need a highly charged bat — and probably is the reason Go-Go kisses his so often.
It’s all about putting a charge in things, love, and controlling the electrons.
Maybe Delmon’s best position is RF. If it is, it’s not because he played right for Tampa Bay. When Delmon came up in 2007, Carl Crawford was and had been the Rays’ regular left-fielder. That, more than any reason, was why Delmon played RF for Tampa.
Delmon’s best position is on another team.
Walter,
I’m sure you’re right. But Crawford strikes me as a guy who could easily move to right field. How’s his arm?
WJ,
“That, more than any reason, was why Delmon played RF for Tampa.”
Delmon was a right fielder for Camarillo HS for four years, then again in the minors.
His strong arm and lack of centerfielder’s speed makes RF his “natural position.
“natural” position.
I hear that WJ. From what I can tell, Delmon was OK in RF because of his arm in 2007. For whatever reason, that arm has no longer been an asset in LF. Coupled with that, though, Delmon’s range appears to have taken a turn for the worse along with the change of teams (and positions). Does anyone know if Delmon gets a better jump on the ball outside the Dome? Perhaps that may help explain the decline in range.
Ah…so it’s his strong arm that hinders him in LF.
“Does anyone know if Delmon gets a better jump on the ball outside the Dome?”
EVERYONE (including God) gets a better jump on the ball outside the Dome!
“Ah…so it’s his strong arm that hinders him in LF.”
No.
It’s LF that hinders him in LF.
OK, sane, does Delmon get an appreciably worse jump than other outfielders in the dome?
LF in the Dome is big. Much bigger than RF.
To add to Sane’s point, here is an excerpt from an article after he was drafted:
“Young was the most accomplished high school hitter in the 2003 draft. Already 6-foot-3 and 205 pounds, he projects as a slugging right fielder.“
Weak eyesight would be magnified inside the Dome.
“does Delmon get an appreciably worse jump than other outfielders in the dome?”
Ask the Astros LF who is still chasing the ball Delmon hit at him last week.
Or RonDL White, Josh Rabe, Mike Restovich, Buck Buchanon, Jason Tyner or Shannon Stewart.
Maybe Delmon’s eyes are not as good as those guys’ in glaring lighting.
Pertinent info Benny, perhaps enough to further encourage the Cuddy move to 2B? Delmon can shade to the corner in RF truly hindering extra-base opportunities. Gomez can shade abito right center and Span can and Span can make up for it with their range at the other OF spots. I like it.
Mauer was always projected as a slugging catcher, and that wasn’t realized until just this year.
As the Dome LF is so bad, than perhaps Delmon doesn’t deserve so much scorn for his struggles out there.
Benny,
I agree. But Delmon’s faster than Cuddy right? And overall RF and LF are about equal in stadiums across the country aren’t they?
How about this question: If Cuddy at 2B gives up more singles, does the revamped outfield allowed for by the position change take away more doubles and triples?
Paul,
Delmon and Cuddy are both RF’s…no flip-flop necessary.
Span is a CF-LF.
So Span is the guy to play LF. (if Gomez is in CF)
Paul,
Generally RF is smaller in most MLB stadiums, not just the Dome.
“If Cuddy at 2B gives up more singles, does the revamped outfield allowed for by the position change take away more doubles and triples?”
IMO, no.
Defense gets worse, but offense improves if Gomez plays CF, Cuddy plays 2B and Tolbert (or whoever) sits.
Trivia: name the current stadiums where LF and RF are symmetrical.
jason, you can pick your dang poison about who has played their way OUT of this lineup. Here’s my list, in order of my own version of playing favorites: Punto, Young, Casilla, Redmond, Tolbert, Buscher, and Gomez. Frankly, you can trade the whole bunch, including Gomez if you can steal something for him. While you’re at it, get fair value for Cuddyer and Harris, then reach down to AAA and gift-wrap Pridie and Macri, and toss Humber, Jones, Duensing, and Keppel onto the heap. Hopefully, you can get Shannon Stewart back here, and maybe Rod Stewart, and Shannon Tweed, and Jimmy Stewart, and Stewie, and…
Yeah, sane, Gomez for Tolbert at the plate. But Gomez for Span in CF (much better) and Span for Young in LF (also much better).
Cuddy to 2nd does not exist in a vacuum.
WJ,
Rogers Centre, Kauffman Stadium, Oakland Coliseum and Dodger Stadium
(Busch Stadium, Wrigley Field and Progressive Field are close but no cigar)
Delmon and Cuddy are both RF’s…no flip-flop necessary.
Span is a CF-LF.
So Span is the guy to play LF. (if Gomez is in CF)
sane, I agree 1000000%
SweetOne,
Respectfully, someone else tryed to peddle that crap. It didn’t make sense to me so I did the research. That’s not true.
Paul:
I am all for a platoon of Cuddyer and Young in RF. This Cuddyer-automatically-gets-the-start BS is OLD.
Defense gets worse, but offense improves if Gomez plays CF, Cuddy plays 2B and Tolbert (or whoever) sits
I am not sure that the defense will get that much worse:
Career UZR/150 @ 2B:
Punto: 2.0
Cuddyer: 0.3
Harris: -6.8
Casilla: -7.0
Tolbert: -15.5
there is a factor in that he did not play the position for a while. That much is true.
Question for the people here. I am NOT looking for criticism. I am only seeking a genuine explanation.
How could we have committed to an $8.5 million two-year deal with Nick Punto?
Again, I am not looking for “Bill Smith is clueless.” I really am looking for an attempt at explaining the logic.
Yes, the subtext to my question is, “Bill Smith is out of his league in this job.”
But I’m not looking for confirmation of that. I’m also not looking for Punto bashing. I just want someone to do their best to explain what warranted that type of contract for his historic level of performance.
Thanks!
T-Mouse,
This is only a guess: Gardenhire pushed it.
Here is something else about why DY needs to start every day: He had only 2 stints where he started every day. That’s what he did:
4/12-4/19: .273/.333/.409 .742 OPS
6/9-6/23: .292/.286/.438 .723 OPS
Not earth moving numbers, but respectable.
I’ll take a crack at it, T-Mouse. First, the timing: before the erosion in the FA market, so $4M/yr. didn’t seem that unreasonable to them, no apology provided. Second, they had 4 goals, and I think they prioritized them: RH power to protect Morneau in the batting order; 3B defense; bullpen; everyday SS. I think they locked up Punto to insure an OK option was in place in case they couldn’t find a fair trade for an everyday SS, and they didn’t. Had someone like Hardy fallen into their lap at a reasonable cost, I think they would have pulled the trigger. By the time the winter meetings ended, it was clear that the trade market for an everyday SS was bad, and the FA SS market didn’t offer better options, in their view, than Punto. So we got stuck with him for 2009.
T-Mouse:
At the time of the contract, it appeared as though there was not going to be a cheaper alternative at SS.
After Punto signed, the bottom of the market dropped out of Free Agent market, which is part of the reason why the Twins got Crede for what they did.
Basically, the Twins would’ve either overpaid their new 3B and signed Punto for peanuts later or overpayed Punto and then signed their new 3B for peanuts.
Even Delmon admits he’s a slow starter. Sit him regularly and he’s perpetually back to square one.
Or you can go with Walter’s theory.
And as I’m watching the WGN broadcast of the Sox/Cubs game, let me repeat my previous sentiment.
Those who accuse Dicknbert of being homers have NEVER seen a WGN Sox broadcast.
T,
the Hawk is the biggest homer broadcaster (now that Harry Caray died)
In that instance, he says, the ball never touches the bat.
I’ve heard that theory before as well. The concept being that if you have two items, you can constantly divide the space between them in half.
So theoretically the object is perpetually half as far from the second object as it was previously…
It’s one of those theories that you can whip out to get somebody’s head spinning.
When was the first day 2008 free agents could be signed?
No kidding thry: To date Hawk is the ONLY announcer across any sport that I’ve ever seen refer to the team he is covering as “We”.
So unprofessional.
bop,
Your explanation obviously took more thought - which is why I went with mine.
Hawk used to be GM of the Sox. He fired Tony LaRussa. Enough said?
and how about “the good guys” and the “bad guys”… that is tres professional as well…
Hawk used to be GM of the Sox. He fired Tony LaRussa. Enough said?
ok, Did not know that Instantly Steve Phillips’ credibility as a broadcaster and GM went up a few notches in my book
Hawk can get a voice machine, pre-record the 20 or so phrases he uses almost exclusively and just press a button when he wants to make a comment.
Both versions tell part of the story, WJ. Yours is better.
Which is why I asked when was the first date FAs could sign, because is seemed to me at the time that the Twins jumped awfully quick to re-sign Punto. Were they afraid of getting into a bidding war for him? Of course, I don’t know if Punto had received some offers.
One last thing, the only three players I can recall the Twins being in a hurry to re-sign were Cuddyer, Redman, and Punto. Maybe Crain?
Alright, I gotta go. Gotta file some frivilous lawsuits to drive up the cost of health insurance and generally add to the ruin of the country.
WJ,
“Gotta file some frivilous lawsuits to drive up the cost of health insurance and generally add to the ruin of the country.”
At the end of the day, it’s always a good thing to know that you have made a significant contribution.
Thank you! Very helpful answers on why we signed Punto. I think you all hit the nail solidly. I find myself wishing we would put more faith in our minor league prospects than to throw $4M/year for two years. But your explanation of the circumstances…make perfect sense. Thank you. Oh, and, I hope we get every dollar of value from Nick. I do think it begins with no more headfirst sliding showmanship (which I don’t think is an unfair categorization). Nick says he will do whatever it takes to serve the team; I believe him; so let’s be very clear on headfirst sliding. It’s rarely of any value and often puts the player in harm’s way. (Incidentally, I believe it has been statistically proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that headfirst sliding into first base is the slower option. So let’s let Nick know that this is one way he can really help out the team.)
Go Twins.
Right might-T-Mouse. You don’t see Hussain Bolt DIVING into the finish line at the Olympics, it’s slower. Nick has signed for the big bucks now he can slack off. He already slacked off on the batting average, gotta 86 the headfirst-ing.
you know what, say what you will about punto, there is no denying he is an excellent bunter. when he lays a push bunt at the second baseman and races the pitcher for 1st base -hell yeah he should slide head first. that is his advantage as a runner; the pitcher CANT lunge since he has to catch the ball!
Gardenhire simply doesn’t have his team ready to play. After a good showing in St. Louis, the team lacked motivation and determination against the Royals yesturday. Not to mention the fact that Gardenhire is inadequate as a manager when it comes to preparing his team to complete, he put the jinx Punto in the starting lineup. Punto’s number stink and he has a long record of not coming through in the clutch and costing the team in the standings. The hot hitting Gomez was benched and one has to wonder why Gardenhire makes the lineup choices he does unless it is to keep the players salaries down. Gardenhire got thrown out of the game against Kansas City primarily because he is a poor manager who does not prepare his team to win games and tries to blame the umpires for his team’s meek performance. Furthermore, Gardenhire sets a poor example for all the kids out there watching the ball games when he throws his stupid temper tantrums and get kicked out of the games. I heard he does it primarily so he can go to the clubhouse and order pizza and drink beer during the games. Gardenhire should be fired and replaced by the manager at Rochester. The clumsy Cuddyer made a throw to the infield typical of a little leager. He also is a clutz and should be traded if possible. The two glaring problems are Punto and Cuddyer, who are net negatives to the team. Gardenhire has never seemed to grasp that concept, much to the misfortune of the Twins team.
I know I am way late on this but I think it is worth mentioning.
In last Friday’s game against the Cards, Joe Nathan showed true professionalism and class. In the 9th inning, with a runner on, he struck out the best (arguably) hitter in baseball (Albert P.). After he fanned him, he got the ball back from Joe and got ready for the next batter - no arm pumping or “smoking pistol.” After he fot the final out by strikeout, he pointed to Joe and got in line to shake hands with his teammates. Again, no theatrics after a great performance.
He knows how to be a professional baseball player.
Shaun is correct about the head first thing.
