New-look Cleveland team awaiting Twins
Posted on August 4th, 2009 – 12:06 PMBy Joe Christensen
CLEVELAND — Landed here this morning, checked into my hotel and getting ready to head to the ballpark.
What happened to the Cleveland Indians? If you’re like me, you’ve got some catching up to do on this team after the fire sale. It went deeper than Cliff Lee and Victor Martinez.
Here’s a good overview piece from longtime Indians beat writer Paul Hoynes, in the Cleveland Plain Dealer. Our series preview is here, and here’s a piece on Twins newcomer Orlando Cabrera.
Check back here later this afternoon for tonight’s starting lineups and an update on Michael Cuddyer’s back injury.
148 Responses to "New-look Cleveland team awaiting Twins"
Kind of sad to not see any roster moves since Sunday’s shellacking.
That Garko story is pretty funny but it’s sort of sad to see a good team dismantled like that just because of the economy right now. That being said I hope the Twins sweep up whats left of them.
What’s sad is watching our starters take the mound every night. Maybe more sickening than sad actually.
The new-look Indians are exactly what the Twins need right now. It’s hard to believe how far they’ve fallen. A lot of folks had them winning the Central at the beginning of the season.
Do they get twins games in north dakota?
If only Perkins weren’t so essential to our team…we could have had Jarod Washburn….
This newly dismantled Indians team actually scares me this week. They just took 2 of 3 from the Tigers and could present pesky “nobodys” eager to make a name for themselves.
Plus, their first two starters for the series present a problem, since the Twins have been known to lay an egg against little known lefties.
Plus, they still have Sizemore who hit a ball off of Eddie Guardado (I realize he is not on the team right now, but still probably better than half the bulpen right now) last year that is currently still headed towards South America.
So, in short, yeah, I’m not counting any chickens before they hatch with this one. No way, no how.
FIRE BILLY SMITH…it is time for someone with guts to pull off a trade! Oops…probably too late for this season!!!
Delmon as a Texas Ranger…how could you not make the deal?
The new-look Indians are exactly what the Twins need right now.
Tell that to Detroit. A lot of kids fighting for next year right now, and they’ve shown the Twins would be wise not to overlook this series.
You kiddin me? If this is Cleveland’s chance to see what young kids they got, they’re in for a hell of an ego boost with the batting practice coming their way starting tonight.
If the Pohlad boys would loosen some purse strings, we won’t even have to worry about trading away the Valencia’s and Hick’s of the world. The Twins biggest problem has always been the owners.
At this point, I would hope the Twins are not overlooking any series, especially those on the road.
I guarantee you what ever was coming back in the D-Young deal from Texas, was prospects! Nolan Ryan ain’t dumb enough to trade away pitching for outfielders. Most GM’s don’t do that . . oh wait, our’s did . . .hmmmm
You went pretty easy on Punto in breaking down the Cabrera saga in that piece, Joe C.
The impression I got was the Twins basically opted for Punto because Cabrera was 2 years older and had a verbal spat with Ozzie Guillen (who hasn’t). The piece reiterated that three other teams were also interested in Punto.
Bottom line is if there really was a Cabrera-Punto debate in the offseason and the Twins decided not to make Cabrera an offer before they inked Punto to that 2-year deal, they made a huge mistake. Twins fans have seen enough of Punto and I’ve seen enough of Cabrera in two games (error included) to know we now have a legitimate major league middle-infielder.
As the old saying goes, “Better late than never.”
New News….Jason back on and as always turns every article into Punto bashing….It is getting old, Jason, we all know how you feel.
I’m having a vision of Punto’s agent reacting to a contract offer he did’t deserve. You can’t make that up.
The next 12 days will determine if the Twins will stay in the race: 6 games v. Cleveland, 3 v. KC and 3 v. Detroit. They need to go 9-3 in that stretch to keep me interested.
Sorry, Doc, but Gardy keeps running him out there.
Actually, Block, we’re in Code Red as of now (especially with the Tigers winning last night). If we get swept by Cleveland and the Tigers win their next three, we’re 6.5 back and DOA.
There’s plenty of reason for optimism; we’ve done quite well against the AL Central. The key is to win 4 of 6 on the roadtrip before coming home.
If I had a dollar for everytime Jason mentioned Punto, I could buy season tickets at Target Field…
Shane Mack, yes,unfortunatley, we do get the Twins games in North Dakota.
LOL ES16…well, I actually read the article which Joe C. linked to. It broke down the Cabrera-Punto situation with the Twins. I commented on it. I hear what you’re saying, but that is what this forum is for.
Doc…I take issue with your use of the word “bashing.” As I’ve stated many times, I have no personal dislike of Punto. I actually admire how he appears to have made the most out of his skills. I do think he hurts the team when he’s in the lineup each night, however.
Before today’s game, Gardy should give the team one of the fired-up high school football coach speeches… Do or die, your time is now, rip some heads off, etc.
Jason, you oftentimes add a lot to the blogs with your comments, but your continuous repeats of your disdain for Punto is really getting sickening. We know how you feel, and no matter the article, you always get to that. What I am politely asking you is simply stop being redundant about Punto.
I am fearing this Cleveland series. We should sweep– or at least win two out of three. But Cleveland is playing for fun and next year– so they are loose and the Twins are already playing too tight. I would not be surprised at all if we lose this series and have a sub 500 road trip. Disappointed– but not surprised.
I am politely declining your request, Doc. As soon as Gardy benches Punto or the team replaces him on the roster, I won’t dwell on his inadequacies any longer. We’re talking about a $8.5 million player, Doc, not one of the bat boys.
I appreciate your sentiment.
Why does Jason have to remain quiet on Punto/ It’s a free country first and foremost. Second, I’m pretty sure Jason hasn’t “slandered” Punto in any capacity. He and others who dislike Punto have every right admonishing said utility infielder as well as his manager.
Jason, as someone that has stopped talking about DY until I’m asked about him or the end of the year, I’ll say it hasn’t been easy. But, there are tons of things to complain about (BS and Gardy and the coaches and players are giving us plenty of ammo right now, unfortunately). Take the challenge. Try going 3 days w/o talking about Punto unless asked. You’ll find your view of the team expanding (which may not be a good thing right now, but that’s the chance you take).
Fight the power Jason…too many people in this country are silenced by a few people who yell and scream louder than the rest of us. I, for one, am growing weary of such intemperate outbursts.
“Jason says:”
Scroll Down!
“Jason says:”
Scroll Down!
“Jason says:”
Scroll Down!
“Jason says:”
Scroll Down!
How difficult is that?
Or not, it’s really your choice. I’m just having fun with my not talking about DY (of course, I’m not sure he’s even on the roster right now….).
I’m not sure whats worse Jason ripping on Punto or other people ripping on Jason for ripping on Punto.
Keep talking about Punto, Jason…perhaps somewhere down the road, enough people will somehow, someway convince Twins brass that trotting out a lineup that includes said utility infielder (among others of his ilk) is unacceptable: “I’m mad as hell, and I’m not going to take it anymore.”
ES16 says:
August 4th, 2009 at 1:26 pm
Before today’s game, Gardy should give the team one of the fired-up high school football coach speeches… Do or die, your time is now, rip some heads off, etc.
This isn’t going to happen. Gardy is too laid back. All his arguments with umpires is just for show. I bet he practices! Note–being laid back is not a bad thing– but he is from the Tom Kelly mold— don’t show emotion– unless it’s part of the show.
mwww how do you feel about Delmon Young might i ask?
Other people ripping Jason is worse, but that’s because I believe these boards are for chatting about what you want, even if others don’t want to. As sy points out, if you don’t like a poster’s posts, skip ‘em.
And, it’s not like Jason is wrong. Punto is terrible, and no low budget team should sign that kind of player for that kind of money.
BC of ND says:
August 4th, 2009 at 1:43 pm
I’m not sure whats worse Jason ripping on Punto or other people ripping on Jason for ripping on Punto.
touchee!
BC, that’s just mean to the rest of the boards, just mean. 
“Before today’s game, Gardy should give the team one of the fired-up high school football coach speeches”
That won’t work on the players who have never been to high school.
Exactly, Punto wasn’t worth that contract.
Where are the rumors that the Twins talked to the Rangers about Delmon coming from?
I was sitting here trying to imagine what it must be like right now to be a Tribe fan right now. I mean, I know the Twins of the 70s-9os had years when they dealt the one legitimate star they had because he was too expensive, but this Cleveland thing was a housecleaning beyond anything I remember the Twins ever doing.
Then I realized that if we’re sitting here a year from now without Mauer’s deal extended and with a first half record as disappointing as Cleveland’s has been this season, we might just find out what it feels like.
It wouldn’t be beyond the imagination to wake up August 1, 2010 to find Mauer, Morneau, Nathan, Cuddyer, Kubel and Baker on airplanes to other parts of the country.
Todd Anthony…..”(among others of his ilk) “”" then my question is, why not lay into all of them instead of just Punto? Go with what’s popular, I guess.
yesterday was a lot overboard, as much as i don’t like how gardy plays favorites, none of the games against the angels were lost because of nicky.
there is plenty of complaining to go around, variety is the spice of life find someone new for a while. mike nice to see you have branched out to include others besides dy.
my only complaint is one of our pitchers HAS to knock somebody on their a**! you give up that many runs and nobody hits the dirt??
New news…DrDon again scolding anyone who criticizes any aspect of the Minnesota Twins.
Free Jason!!!
Here’s a thought. If you don’t like Jason talking about Punto, ignore him.
And if you don’t like what I am saying to Jason, Ignore it.
mike, the difference is your opinions about D Young can be tempered by the fact that he spends more than half the season on the bench!
I suppose I could take the advice of some of you and not question or criticize the play of Nick Punto.
Heck, I would probably even earn a spot covering the Twins in the media if a take that approach.
Just kidding, La Velle and Joe!
“DrDon says:
August 4th, 2009 at 1:50 pm
Todd Anthony…..”(among others of his ilk) “”” then my question is, why not lay into all of them instead of just Punto? Go with what’s popular, I guess.”
DrDon: the subject at hand pertained to Punto. I have no problem castigating Young, Gomez, Gardy, Rick Anderson, Cuddyer, Baker, Keppel, etc.
“if I take that approach”
per usual, I screw up the punchline.
And if you don’t like what I say about you talking about being sick about Jason talking about Punto, well . . .
Oh, to hell with it. Let’s just all ignore each other. I mean, what else is a blog for?
Way to go Jason, you’ve galvanized some posters; admittedly, internet posters represent what percent of overall Twins fans? .00001?
With said, you have to start somewhere…
The only current tribesman i know i’ve seen before are Piralta, Sizemore and Hafner.
And that, BC, is what makes them dangerous.
Good point-if you don’t like it, why diginify it with a response or rampant quoting? Ignore it!
Geez, Jim, please don’t channel my fears like that….
I cannot even imagine the outcry from the taxpayers (and Vikings, can you imagine how mad they’d be at the Twins for doing that) if the Twins cleaned house of their good players next year.
How about this: take on Dunn’s contract this year (and hence next), trade Kubel in the offseason for a real 2B or SS? That should be do-able. It’s not ideal, but it might work…..
RickBlaine,
GArdy is no TK! TK had command and respect from his players and did not put up with BS, he had leaders as well in the clubhouse who would police things and if that did not work, he let loose, behind closed doors. The players seem to like Gardy because he is their friend, but he does not seem to lead and there are no leaders in the clubhouse who will get the guys worked up and pump them up. We need people with fire who will take command. That is what we are missing with Hunter being gone, someone to rattle cages.
Plain and simple, Gardy, Smith and Anderson need to go. I believe we have someone in house who can step in and take this team over form Gardy
Jason, I agree with you, Punto needs to be benched, and we should constantly be ripped for signing him to a 2 year contract.
John and Junior..where are you getting the “DY to Rangers” talk?
I just wonder where the Twins would be in the standings this year if the starters collectively performed this year like they did last year.
Spantastic,
I agree that Gardy and T.K. are two different types of managers, but I wouldn’t rip Gardy too much. He has won four division titles in the last seven seasons and narrowly missed a fifth in 2008.
Gardy is more fiery with the umpires and is more cautious with the pitching staff than T.K. was. Gardy has had more to work with than T.K. ever did, except for 1987.
(*Gasp) T.K. used utility players in their proper roles (Al Newman, Denny Hocking).
Gardy does manage to extinguish club house problems when they arise, however. I think Gardy has been very good for the Twins. I also do think the next 12 months are going to be critical for his future with the team.
Jason, with that I agree…”"the next 12 months are going to be critical for his future with the team.”"
Jim Crikket,
woah, there fella
Firesale’s usually happen when teams are struggling with revenue.
Cleveland has been hit hard by the economy and the Tribe has not been drawing well
The Twinks have the 5th best attendence in AL this year. Target Field could sellout for at least two-three years.
Therefore, I don’t really see any firesale on the horizon.
I see a Baltimore Oriole-like situation with this club. Unless the FO pulls their collective heads out of their arses and realizes this offseason that they must find a proven #1 starter for the front of the rotation. And bully help… And somehow keep Cabrera…and…
hs football coach speech isn’t gonna work because baseball and football take two different mentalities. Football is a more physical game where sometimes you need be fired up to hit a guy who’s bigger then you. Baseball with all its one on one battles is just as much mental as it is physical if not more.
I think this team could be Gardyless next season if it continues this way. As a matter of fact, I predict that we will be Gardyless next year if this team continues the way it is.
randi I doubt that very much Gardy can only play the cards he’s dealt. Joe Girardi on the other hand will get canned if the Yankees dont make the playoffs.
The players seem to like Gardy because he is their friend, but he does not seem to lead and there are no leaders in the clubhouse who will get the guys worked up and pump them up.
Gardy is credited with pep-talking Morneau into his MVP season.
That is what we are missing with Hunter being gone, someone to rattle cages.
Torii got roundly criticized when he attempted to rattle cages or be the Team Leader TM. Maybe that’s a reason Cabrera was added. He has been known to say things that get the clubhouse fired up.
Plain and simple, Gardy, Smith and Anderson need to go.
Because the players have no fire, you fire the coaches? Yeah, I’d say ’simple’ is the right word for that notion. If the players can’t get themselves up for a division title race (and they are assuredly in one), they are not long for “The Show” and the grass won’t be greener for them no matter where they end up.
I don’t know. It is just a feel I get. The team is stagnant (sp?). Obviously that is not all Gardy’s fault, but he makes if feel that way. What would this team be like with Mike Scosia (sp?)?
So Jason, what was your point? So what that Gardy won 4 division titles, what happened after they won? TK knew how to manage with what he had and I agree played the players correctly, which brings me to my point again, that Gardy is losing it, and it has become obvious the past two seasons, if he does not have the right players, he is a deer in the headlights. Where is Twins baseball? Where is the defense? How many gold glove winners do we have? Again, Gardy, Anderson and Smith need to go, we are getting stale and need a boost.
Fran, yes if that is the case then in sports it does come back on the manager or head coach!
Gardenhire is in a no-lose situation, don’t kid yourself.
If the team does well, he is credited as a borderline genius for getting the most out of a team with a low payfoll.
If the team doesn’t do well, it’s because he is the manager with a low payroll.
So, basically, yeah, he will be here as long as he wants to, until HE decides it’s time to move on.
Better question, randi…what would this team be like with the Angels’ payroll?
Personally, I would leave the debate about Gardy’s job status for after the season or for part way into next season.
The general consensus of the blog is:
Everything(or nothing) is wrong.
Everything (or nothing) should be dicarded and replaced.
No consensus?
Full speed ahead!
I will say I disagreed with the author of this blog when he said in a Star Tribune Twins Chat earlier this season that Gardy is “a Top 5 manager” and he laughs when fans bring up his job performance.
I’m going to give the man some slack based upon winning seasons in the past, but it would be awful hard to ring the above endorsement if the Twins either miss the playoffs or bow out in the first round.
What would this team be like with Mike Scosia (sp?)?
I like Mike, but his teams are generally known for flying high about this time and crashing in October…i.e. they peak too soon.
Except for one season, of course. But the LAAA roster has pretty much turned over since then.
We also need to deal any of our outfielders except Span and Cuddyer (hurt again), Punto, Liriano and possibly Perkins to try and get some veteran help in the Pitching Staff. Liriano needs a change of scenery and may still have some value. Perkins may still have some value left due to age, and our outfielders are nothing special, except the two to keep, especially Span, who could become a spark plug/leader with another year and starting position under his belt. I am sorry about Gomez, but he is a waste of time and his routes are absolutely atrocious and will eventually hurt himself or others.
That is a good question, Jason. I would like to see what Gardy could do with a higher payroll, but he does have some pretty fine players to work with now. I agree with spantastic. He seems a little lost. There seem to be so many more mistakes by the players. We have always had low payroll. TK seemed to know how to teach the game of baseball to his players. I know they are professionals, but the young players are still learning and need to be coached/managed.
I dont think getting the players “fired up” is the answer. As a manager your job is to try to keep your players on an even keel and keep them from going through ups and downs.
“Gardy, Anderson and Smith need to go, we are getting stale and need a boost.”
Either Gardy, Anderson and Smith or 88% of the roster need to go.
or both.
or neither.
agree randi, there’s no reason the Twins shouldn’t win a mediocre AL Central this year based upon the talent they have on the current roster.
mike, I would imagine the Tribe will keep Sizemore around but anyone who wants Piralta and Hafner probably will have the opportunity to claim them off waivers or trade for them in August (assuming nobody wants to pay full price for them).
chinmusic, granted Cleveland and Minny are in different economic circumnstances at the moment. But this overhaul by the Tribe is not totally about money. They looked at what their competitive situation was likely to be next year, saw it was not likely to improve and decided their best approach was to set fire to the barn and build a new one from scratch.
They HAVE done it before and done so with some level of success. They’ve somewhat adopted the philosophy that several people around here suggest the Twins take. Namely, “don’t worry about being competitive every year, accept that some years you will be awful and shoot for the stars once every 5 years or so.”
They’ve also demonstrated that such approach is not necessarily a guarantee of reaching the pinnacle, any more than the Twins’ philosophy is.
by the way, can anyone explain why Thursday’s game is at 11:05 a.m.?
Fran, I am going to diasagree with you 100%. It is the coaches job to put together a winning feel, team, and organization. They do this by the way they approach training. Putting pressure on the guys, letting them know…all of them…when they have messed up. When have you heard of Gardy go after one of his stars? And yes, it was great to see Morneau take off the year he was spoken to, but do you think one 15 minute conversation is what it took? Who knows what took place, we weren’t there.
11:05 a.m. is 12:05 p.m. in Cleveland. We live in the Central time zone, whereas Cleveland is located in a different time zone called the Eastern time zone.
“explain why Thursday’s game is at 11:05 a.m.?”
Twins go to Detroit, Indians go to Chicago for Friday night games.
I know they are professionals, but the young players are still learning and need to be coached/managed.
Young players, in general, seem to be less coachable/manageable.
…there’s no reason the Twins shouldn’t win a mediocre AL Central this year based upon the talent they have on the current roster.
Or for years to come. No Central team is really forcing the Twins to make wholesale changes. That may be part of their trouble. They can get by OK with just tweaks and they know it.
DrDon says:
August 4th, 2009 at 1:57 pm
And if you don’t like what I am saying to Jason, Ignore it
Hey Doc…Why don’t you take a dose of your own meds idiot…
“It is the coaches job to put together a winning feel, team, and organization. They do this by the way they approach training. Putting pressure on the guys, letting them know…all of them…when they have messed up.”
Thanks for explaining coaching to us.
I hope Gardy gets a chance to read that.
Thank you for the time zone lesson, ES16.
11:05 is still the earliest day game the Twins will have played this year. Their Sep. 10 game at Toronto starts at 11:37 central time and their Oct. 1 game at Detroit starts at 12:05 central time. I was just wondering if there was a special reason for Thursday’s game to start that early (like Lake Erie Days or something).
Okay, sane, so if 88% of the roster needs to go, which 3 players would you keep? Or were you talking about the 40-man roster? In which case, which 4.8 players would you keep? Or Gardy? Or Anderson? Or any of them?
Jason i think they want to make sure no lights are needed that day to save more money.
I think the game Thursday was moved up an hour because Cleveland ownership has implemented a cost-savings program under which the team now travels by bus… and that takes a bit longer to get the team to Chicago.
Jon, thanks for letting someone express an opinion. I believe that is what this is. Have you coached or just sat in your mom’s basement with a head set on playing role playing games. I hope Gardy does read it. A good coach does not put others in front of the team, again, when have you heard him come out against his stars? He needs to coach and teach all of them as a team, and that also means coming down on all of them together. Case in point, what would have happened if Perk spoke up about adding players to the media instead of Joe, Joe and Justin? They need to make this point to the GM to his face and not whine about it to the media.
“which 3 players would you keep?”
I was referring to Mauer, Morneau and Nathan, but I was being facetious.
Fran, I am going to diasagree with you 100%. It is the coaches job to put together a winning feel, team, and organization. They do this by the way they approach training. Putting pressure on the guys, letting them know…all of them…when they have messed up. When have you heard of Gardy go after one of his stars?
And I am going to disagree with you. Putting pressure on guys does little, except to make them press more. And established guys know when they mess up. They don’t need to be told or repeatedly ‘gone after’ for it.
The team is in contention with two months to play and the competition has similar flaws. The hand-wringing makes many here look like they’ve never seen a MLB baseball season before. It’s way over the top.
Yeah, I got that, sane, hence the later reference to the 4.8 players. Sorry for the vaguness. I just found your post amusing.
“Jon, thanks for letting someone express an opinion.”
I welcomed your opinion.
I even thanked you for it.
If that is a violation of your Constitutional rights, I hereby retract my thanks.
a little hot in here today, huh?
We need Joe C. to post the lineups so we can get back to the business of wondering why Harris is on the bench against a lefty
Nope Jason, just like when the Twins schedule 12:10 day games at home against West Coast teams, they are played at 10:10 am out there.
And we all know what happens when Gardenhire presses as he does it everytime he plays the Yankees.
Twins just aren’t good at bashing their way to wins plain and simple. Without pitching and defense they stay at .500 and 3rd place
LOL I understand how time zones work, Ben. I kind of wished I hadn’t asked now. If you check the schedule, you’ll notice that no other day game, including any played on the East Coast, starts as early as 11:05 a.m. central time. I was just curious…no big deal…I will be awake then.
remember everyone, Constitutional rights can be waived and often there are exceptions
I find it interesting to read comments about our beloved Tom Kelly and how he was leaps and bounds better than Gardenhire.
Now I am and will always be a big TK fan but was everybody giving him the same accollades when the team went 10 seasons after the WS without making it to the playoffs?
Just curious. This was before the big blogging era began so I wonder what the diatribes would have been during that part of his tenure.
Harris will only play in a handful of games the remainder of the season and then be dealt. He along with Delmon are on the doghouse…why is Harris? Because he is not LNP? AGAIN, Gardy does not know how to manage wihtout the perfect pieces. He needs to light a fire under this team, and I don’t care if they have been around for 15-20 years, players need to be held accountable.
As soon as Gardy benches Punto or the team replaces him on the roster, I won’t dwell on his inadequacies any longer.
Bull. Punto spent a significant chunk of 2008 on the DL and all you did was whine about how he’d be right back in the lineup once he returned.
And once Punto is finally no longer with the Twins, you’ll continue to post updates ala your buddies Tyner, Ford, and Mientkwicz.
remember everyone, Constitutional rights can be waived and often there are exceptions
Constitutional rights don’t extend to a privately owned web chat. And no, I’m not kidding. You are here because the Strib lets you be here.
Jason,
If the Twins play in Boston, on Patriot’s Day, at 11 AM Eastern Time (10 AM Central) next April, remember not to ask………
Eddie, remember what TK had 10 years after the WS. Mediocre pitching at best, and a bunch of second rate players and the lowest payroll in baseball, this is when Pohlad was at his stingiest.
Remember, Coomer was the lone all star one year.
This was before the big blogging era began so I wonder what the diatribes would have been during that part of his tenure.
TK gets a pass for those 10 years becaues of the two World Series. Which is funny, because the Pohlads get all kind of crap for never wanting championships when they’ve got those same two in their pocket as proof to the contrary.
Unless you buy into the “The Twins are winning despite their coaches, managers, front office, ownership, vendors, fans, and 90% of the roster” theory that seems to be most popular.
“Remember, Coomer was the lone all star one year”
It can NEVER get worse than that!
Remember that when you post “it couldn’t be any worse!”
Thank you T…you said it before I did…Joe C could go to your house, strip you naked, duct tape your mouth, shove you in a closet never to be heard from again and not one single Constitutional violation has occurred…no wonder our country is in trouble when most don’t even understand our most basic documents.
Doc is relieved of “topic patrol” now that T has arrived…
On T’s first point aimed my way…being on the DL isn’t the same as being benched or replaced on the roster (indefinitely, of course). I was never a Tyner fan (nice whiff there), and yes, Mientkiewicz and Ford were key players on past playoff teams as well as fan favorites and I think a lot of fans are curious how their baseball careers are panning out.
To T’s second point re: constitutional rights, that was nothing more than a light-hearted joke by me. If you wanted to debate First Amendment law, I would be more than happy to go there, but we probably should do that using our private email accounts.
“Jason,
If the Twins play in Boston, on Patriot’s Day, at 11 AM Eastern Time (10 AM Central) next April, remember not to ask………”
lol, I’ll just keep walking forward…
Jason, so the little smiley smiley face you put at the end of your post about constitutional rights meant you were joking? Huh. Who knew?
Harris will only play in a handful of games the remainder of the season and then be dealt. He along with Delmon are on the doghouse…why is Harris?
I has to do with the game in Milwaukee when Harris made a terrible throw to the plate that led to a loss. I think the Harris as starting SS experiment effectively ended that night. Not suggesting that is fair, but I think it’s true.
Jason i have no problem with you ripping on any players it’s your man love for Dougie baseball that i find a little strange.
Topic Patrol should swing into high gear regarding the proposal to debate First Amendment Law on this blog.
DrDon? Someone? Please…..hurry…..
Doc is relieved of “topic patrol” now that T has arrived…
Oh that’s right, I always forget how it works. You’re free to whine and moan all you want here, but the moment somebody disagrees they’re immediately a “monitor”.
Uh-huh…here’s a novel though. How’s about you put away the ad-hominem’s and actually have a baseball conversation, hmm?
Because seriously Jason, the fact I’m not the only one to pick up on your constant facsination with Punto (to the point where it honestly reads like an obsession) should tell you something.
I picture you as that guy that once the converation changes to something you’ve got no clue on you immediately go back to the well and try to get it back to something you do.
Even if that means flailing your arms about at the table shouting “But what about Punto?! Doesn’t he suck?”
We get is Jason, Punto’s not the best ballplayer. You don’t have to repost that thought every 10-15 minutes just in case somebody thinks you may have changed your mind. Trust us…we don’t think that about you.
Ever.
sorry BC, I’ll try to keep it strictly negative from here on out…
Nobody has the Constitutional Right to annoy the blogosphere by discussing First Amendment Law on this blog.
But you do have the right to remain silent.
If you wish to have an attorney present…..
SD, i actually proposed debating First Amendment law in a private forum, but if someone wants to opine about it, I’m not going to tell them not to.
Wow….you ARE a lawyer. With a slow practice apparently!
SD, it’s possible (not eithical, mind you, but possible) to bill and blog at the same time.
“Wow….you ARE a lawyer. With a slow practice apparently!”
I think Brendan Harris is his only client.
KIDDING!
So TK gets a pass for the mediocre days when he had no stars but gets an awefull lot of credit for making the playoffs twice with 10 players from the all metrodome team. I think they both get a little more credit than they deserve from their defenders and less than they deserve from their detractors. I would personally give the edge to TK cuz I find myself disagreeing more with Gardy’s moves, but disagreed with plenty of TK’s moves also, even in the WS years. Not all good decisions have a good result and many bad decisions have good results. ie, I wouldn’t let Punto swing on 3-0 count but if he gets a hit that knocks in 2 it is a good result.
BoneYard, you reference the mother of all oxymorons tying ethics to lawyers.
Fran: I’m a long time Gardy supporter (have posted long rants here several times), but:
1. I don’t think you can use ‘the Twins are in a pennant race’ as a defense of Gardy. The Twins are only 3.5 games out, but that is due to the pathetic quality of the AL Central, not due to any strength of the Twins.
2. It has become more and more undeniable that “Twins baseball”–which used to mean something–has gradually eroded over his tenure to the point that right now, I would say the Twins lose more games than they win through fundamentals, execution, etc. Wouldn’t you?
At what point do you start holding someone in the dugout responsible for that?
I admit I don’t know the answer, but I think it’s at least a legitimate topic for conversation at this point.
3. Over the last few years of TK’s tenure, I often felt that TK’s priority had shifted from winning games to doing things his way. I know he didn’t have a lot to work with, but I often felt he made playing time decisions based on things other than ‘what will win the most games.’
I think there’s reason to at least question Gardy on the same grounds at this point. From a distance–and I know this is from a FAR distance–it appears he often makes playing time decisions based on who he likes, rather than who’s the better player.
Would you disagree?
4. I can think of several times this year when his pitching decisions pretty clearly cost the team wins. That’s a big part of his job, and IMO it’s been very very questionable this year.
I don’t think a ’should Gardy go’ conversation should be out of bounds. I can understand different opinions on that, and I’m not ready to call for his head yet, but I’m not nearly the Gardy fan I have been.
There WILL be a time for change. It happens to every team. It’s a question of when.
“TK gets a pass for the mediocre days when he had no stars”
If TK made it through a year with Coomer as his best player and didn’t take his own life, he deserves a pass………and Sainthood.
If you wish to have an attorney present…
I have no lawyer, but I have Scott Boras. For some reason I imagine that to be better. 
SD, I didn’t do that. The Bar Association did that.
First Amendment law is just a hobby, folks. No one gets paid to do that kind of stuff anyway
Uh-huh…here’s a novel though. How’s about you put away the ad-hominem’s and actually have a baseball conversation, hmm?
Pot, meet Kettle.
Kettle, Pot.
Des, that is absolutely stupid and made no sense. And I cannot believe you are basing it on the All MetroDome team. Seriously! We love those teams because they made us believe and feel good, and those players wil always have a soft spot in our heart.
At what point do you start holding someone in the dugout responsible for that?
The problem at that point though is who in the dugout? Coaching can only “coach” so much. Gardy did suggest that he would pull a player from the game if they missed the cutoff man…but at what point does coaching/managing turn into one-ups-manship. (is that hyphenated?)
It gets to a point where the teacher can only do so much before it’s up to the student to actually ACT on what they’ve been taught.
And if you’ve got an army of moderate to adequate fielding players, and some of your best fielders also can’t hit…it’s hard to justify pulling a guy who makes one error (however costly) if he’s driving in key runs elsewhere in the season.
Dearest Chief: There’s a sizeable difference between attacking somebody as a “blog monitor”, “police officer” or other personal statement and attacking the weakness of somebody’s argument (or the relevancy to the conversation at hand).
Also, if I’m pot to kettle’s Jason, you would have to be its cousin pan.
T - One question for you, where is the consistency with the positioning that Gardy has used this season? right fiel..left fie…center fi…shortst…second bas…Catch my drift with coaching? You need to stick with players and let them get into a groove.
The sky is falling! The sky is falling! The sky is falling
Everyone loves to go overboard on these blogger thingamajigs–including me.
Blacky, Slowey, Perkins Liriano, Baker, and Swarzak need to step up and get us there. If we had a record near the Halos, then absolutely let’s dump some hot prospects and go get an ace to try and reach deep in October–otherwise, what’s the point really?
Cabrera was a solid A (no pun intended) acquisition and yet no one seems all that happy. Just the fact he can sit and talk with Casilla and Gomez, with credibility, and instantly start leading by example on how to be professional baseball player is reason enough to pay his salary–which is a steal this year.
Punto, liability, really? Yeah the guy’s a Mendoza line hitter, and people love to point out his flaws. He’s not a starter, Gardy, I think, knows this, but our depth at middle infield is laughable. You can’t deny, though, Punto is a Web Gem machine that you can insert into the infield if you needed a guy there and play well, and that’s valuable. The Twins payed it, cause otherwise someone else would have (I’m sure all the offer rumors were not exaggerated). Honestly, how much more of a disaster would our season be if Harris was nailed to SS and Tolbert/Casilla were the only options at the deuce? Punto might not be an All-Star but he sure can help teams bridge injuries, days off, slumping infields, etc and he’s helped the club quite a bit this year.
Back to baseball anyone? Bottom line as I see it (and First Amendment concerns excluded) is if the startin pitching shapes up, the club has a legit chance to make the playoffs. If not, they have no chance. Thoughts?
Spantastic, your comment was absolutely stupid and made no sense in the context of my post. What does your love of those players have to do with my assessment of TK as a manager? 3
Those players made you believe? I am guessing only after the fact cuz I don’t see you having much faith in the current group and doubt you had much faith in the WS teams until they actually did win.
Wow, got me there Des, I give up, you put me to shame and ratted me out for the fair weather fan I am. I feel ashamed, how did you ever figure that out about me, I may bounce back one day.
However Des…ouche, you are a typical person who when questioned and pushed will comeback in the simplest way and rip on someone. Kudos for you taking the easy way out instead of using the ol’ noodle
Cripes, you called my post stupid and said it made no sense and then made it sound like I was bashing the 87 and 91 Twins and I had no idea how you came up with that conclusion. How can I defend my post when you go off on non sequitars like that?
Did not mean to make you sound as if you were bashing 87 and 91, just bashing the fact that you were basing the success of TK because he had 10 All Metrodome players on his team. I found that to be stupid, because it is voted on by the fans and of course they will make up the majority of an All MD team.
It’s not Bill Smith who’s in charge of financial deals it’s the ones pulling the purse strings, isn’t it? It’s the Ownership of the team who okay’s whatever moves are made. Let’s not even worry about Smith and instead focus on the tightwad ownership. We are now not much more than a minor league operation but with a few big names(Morneau/Mauer).
The sad thing is, we are paying big league prices for minor league product. All we have to do is boycott the Dome and when they see empty seats they might wake up…
Funny thing is even without the “top” players they traded, the Tribe will probably win this series. “Dem Twins dont look so good, man.”
Chief:
1. I don’t think you can use ‘the Twins are in a pennant race’ as a defense of Gardy. The Twins are only 3.5 games out, but that is due to the pathetic quality of the AL Central, not due to any strength of the Twins.
I don’t think the Tigers, White Sox or Twins are pathetic.
2. It has become more and more undeniable that “Twins baseball”–which used to mean something–has gradually eroded over his tenure to the point that right now, I would say the Twins lose more games than they win through fundamentals, execution, etc. Wouldn’t you?
I think players who are coachable and fundamentally sound and amenable to playing “Twins baseball” are becoming rarer, and not just for the Twins.
From a distance–and I know this is from a FAR distance–it appears he often makes playing time decisions based on who he likes, rather than who’s the better player.
Would you disagree?
Would not disagree. Would disagree with the notion that this is somehow unique to Gardy. “Likeability” figures into PT decisions from Little League on up. Prob moreso in MLB, where things like contracts also figure into the equation.
4. I can think of several times this year when his pitching decisions pretty clearly cost the team wins. That’s a big part of his job, and IMO it’s been very very questionable this year.
I don’t think he had much choice most of the time. I think his starters have been inconsistent at best and his bullpen has been such that he wanted to try and squeeze as much out of the starters as he could.
