Postgame: Liriano on verge of losing rotation spot
Posted on August 5th, 2009 – 10:04 PMBy Joe Christensen
CLEVELAND — After tonight’s 8-1 loss to Cleveland, Manager Ron Gardenhire said Francisco Liriano will make his next start but acknowledged that could be it, if things don’t improve.
Gardenhire said it would be easier to replace Liriano right now if there was someone definitely ready to take his place. More on this coming in my game story.
“We’re talking about a lot of different things,” Gardenhire said. “The one thing we don’t want to see is him get too far in the dumps. This guy’s got a high ceiling; he’s got great pitches. Right now, he’s pretty frustrated, and we’ll talk about that.
“I plan on him probably going out there and making his next start, but I’ll talk with [pitching coach Rick Anderson], and we’ll see where we’re at.
“The options are very limited, we can’t go with a four-man rotation. We just don’t have much starting pitching left. It’s not like we can say, ‘Take him out and put those other guys in.’ You start telling me who those other guys are, I’m sure some fans have some ideas, but they’re not on our ballclub.”
Liriano, who is 4-11 with a 5.63 ERA said, “Right now, whatever they want me to do, I just do it. I don’t mind if they put me in the bullpen, just whatever.”
69 Responses to "Postgame: Liriano on verge of losing rotation spot"
It took this long for Gardy to say this!? Please…
‘Bout time.
On the bright side, at least we have Dickey around to soak up low leverage innings so Gardy isn’t tempted to use Mijares and Guerrier in a blow out.
Or so I’ve been told.
who would start in place of him..keppel?? oh yea, cant wait=what a disgrace this staff has come to be…thats what happens when you try to go with youngsters all the way around and no veteran leadership- even livan last year held them together in addition to getting 10 wins or so…how good would that look this year…
As I said in a previous post, this organization is a “Mirage”…living on its reputation and not up to it! Liriano has deteriorated this year (while away from Bobby Cuellar and the Cliburn brothers) with no set standards involving conditioning, discipline, playing the “game right” instruction (before hand). This is a management group (top to bottom) of “legacy” employees who have moved up by staying loyal and hanging around. Time to clean house and right the ship!
Methinks that Perkins and Blackburn (and Swarzak) have been worse that Liriano lately but what the hey do I know compared to Gardy and Andy…
It’s about time something is done, I personally think Duensing could step up and take over in Liriano’s spot if needed. He did a good job filling in last Wed. night against the Sox.
I agree….Liriano has been terrible, but so has Perkins, etc. And where is this high ceiling that Gardenhire says Liriano has?
Daniel1966,
you are preaching to the choir…
If this was another organization and the same pitchers regressed a year later as the Twins’ pitchers did, Rick Anderson would have been out of there before the All Star break.
Let me think… Johan Santana, Pedro Martinez and Randy Johnson publicly credit Bobby Cuellar as the person who taught them how to pitch smartly and harvest their talent. I suspect that someone might credit Andy for something (other than Gardy and blindfolded kool-aid drinkers, but, alas, in private). That is two and maybe three hall of fame pitchers…
I think they should give Cuddyer a start, how bad could that be compared to the rest of the starters?
no need to rush into a hasty decision this time of year. there are several waiver wire guys who are over paid and COULD help. they could also be a waste of money. imo it’s better to waste a little of the pohlads money and try than to do nothing and expect things to get better by the twins way.
The body language of Liriano is what disturbs me the most. The guy is just in low gear, and his lack of confidence is so apparent, it’s sickening.
The worst part is, you can’t send him to the ‘pen. What’s he going to do, come in to a game and walk 2 guys in a row? And we don’t need another long inning, mop up guy. By my count, we already have about 4 of those, not including Perkins who should be in that role.
Depressing to say the least.
imo it’s better to waste a little of the pohlads money and try
ggg,
change the business news wire about the Pepsico and the TC bottling companies deal. That took some of that money
check
I’m sure glad we gave up Garza!
thry, you can never find the waitress when you need her.
Mr t98, Neither Bobby Cuellar nor the Cliburn brothers were Ron Gardenhire’s roommate in the NY Mets minor league system. Management by hook on and hang on.
Management by hook on and hang on.
two words:
Dick Suchs
Three words…World Series Champs.. (’87 & ‘91). Then again, Viola, Blyleven, Morris, Erickson, Aguilar, etal.. weren’t known primarily for their ability to “pitch to contact”.
t98 i think that means the brothers just got a little or maybe a lot ( it’s relative to where you stand in the billionaire club) richer.
Yeah, Dick Such. We get your element of truth there…..but let’s be wholly realistic.
Blackburn was doing okay. So Anderson can’t be blamed for that. So now he’s not doing okay, and Andy’s to blame?
Baker is doing okay now for a couple months, so Andy isn’t to blame.
Slowey was doing okay; Andy not to blame.
So, it’s down to Perk and Frank if you want to blame Andy.
Or are you blaming him for the BP too?
Aguilera?
Aguilar
memories…
but he was one of the “bad guys” (Hawk talk) in ‘87 though
Blackburn was doing okay. So Anderson can’t be blamed for that. So now he’s not doing okay, and Andy’s to blame?
Let me put that in Upper Midwest perspective:
Blackburn has been driving his suburban on frozen lakes in March all season…
Aguilera, indeed! My apologies for murdering the surname of a fine man/pitcher. Someone, as I recall, was traded away (on a rental basis to Andy MacPhail’s Cubs) for Lohse and a few others) and chose, in fact, to return to MN. If I am incorrect, I am certain that I will be properly scolded and, perhaps, vilified.
romer,
(back to the subject) here is what I do not like about Andy (and I am not sure that it is him 100%):
he has a cookie cutter philosophy: throw strikes, get the ball in play and let the defense bail you out. Keep the ball low in the zone, throw the 2-seamer low, and “paint the corners” (heck they made a commercial out of that).
Fact is what works for some pitchers will not work for others. For example, if the Twins were ever lucky to get Danny Haren on board (whose out pitch is one of the nastiest split finger FBs this side of Mike Scott), Andy would not know what to do (other that shake his head)…
you can’t clone pitchers and that’s what they are trying to do (unsuccessfully)
Aguilera, indeed
I thought you were talking about Joaquín Andújar, my bad.
Here is my Rick Aguilera story:
During the world series in ‘91 (I think that it was game 2) about 5 hours before the game started, I was at the players entrance (at the back of the dome towards the U) with about 200+ more people trying to see players coming in and getting their autographs. Some of them were great in signing (Tap was the best ever). Some of them were avoiding the process slipping off some other ways (Puck, Hrbie). At some point Rick comes up and gets out of his car. A kid screams at him “Steve, Steve can I have your autograph” (he mistook him for Steve Bedrosian). Rick said “I am not Steve” and headed down to the dome without interacting with anyone there.
BTW, Steve came up later and signed forever. And he (unlike Rick) had a Cy Young under his belt at that point…
Now I hear you, thry.
Andy has a conservative personality, and his pitcher-development strategy reflects that.
I’m too tired to elucidate. But yeah, I hear you.
I’m pretty sure the Twins will swing something at the waiver wire deadline for a starting pitcher. Not that we should expect anything other than someone else’s #4 or #5 starter, but hey, that’s gotta be better than watching Liriano go out and lose every single time. Going to the bullpen might be the only way to salvage Liriano’s career. Just look at what going to the ‘pen did for Phil Hughes in New York. He’s resurrected a name that was being described as a bust as recently as early June.
Mr t98, Great story. My young daughter and I had use of our two season tickets for that World Series (goodness knows how blessed I’ve been to have such a wonderful bride). That said, my daughter still sends me cherished Twins paraphernalia for my birthday and Christmas… a little and, hopefully, long-lasting, thank you for a great parent/child experience. Looking back, I’m sure that Mr Aguilera would, knowing your story, have stopped and signed autographs vigorously.
What a stupid story. There’s absolutely no one anywhere in this organization that would do a better job than him right now. While he’s a mess, Glen Perkins is in worse shape, and no one at AAA can last three innings at this level. And up here…Deunsing? Please. Dickey. Come on.
Threaten him all you want. Liriano’s not going anywhere. Let me see, which is worse, four earned runs in five innings (Liriano) or nine earned runs in 3.1 innings (Perkins)?
This is nothing but nonsense. Hey, I know, here’s a real solution: fire Andy. He’s got to be the most overrated pitching coach on earth. Isn’t it funny how the longer a guy’s up here, the worse he gets???
Autographs are dumb.
Why don’t they just start punto he can’t pitch worse than he can hit and he could earn that 4 millon a year.
I honestly think they just need to let Liriano be Liriano again. Ever since the day he had his surgery, all anybody has ever said is that he would need to become a different pitcher. My question is why? Let him rise or fall being what he is, and quit trying to make him into something he’s not. This reincarnated version of Liriano doesn’t work. Lets get back to throwing the slider hard again. If his arm blows up, it blows up. It just wasn’t meant to be then.
At some point, this manager has got to quit holding players to double standards. This is ridiculous. What Punto gets away with day in, day out, Harris and Alexi get benched for. What Cuddy does time and time again, Delmon is chastised for if he does it one time.
It was like Danny said on the game last night: you can’t hold players to super prospect status; it’s not fair to them or the game. Take them as they are.
Take Liriano for what he is in relation to the staff. He’s given up more than four earned runs ONCE in his last EIGHT starts. While he labors, it’s not exactly like he’s imploding.
Perkins, on the other hand, looks like he doesn’t have a clue half the time. The guy’s given up EIGHT earn runs in TWO of his last THREE outings. And that’s in a combined FOUR innings.
Enough of the double standard. Liriano certainly isn’t what he was in 2006, or even last year. But we can do a lot worse. Just look at Perkins…or Mulvey…or Deunsing…or Humber.
fcmlefty, exactly.
Is any of this the players fault or responsibilty?
I’m not trying to absolve the staff of sharing some blame here but it’s the same staff that oversaw a surprising year last season when a number of starters pitched great. When Frankie was given his chance, sent down when it didn’t work and then brought back when he earned it. Coddled to have better than they appeared number down the stretch only to Bomb Out in his most important start of the year.
Is it possible just some of the blame here is not the coaching but the actual players execution/attitude what have you? This is not just Frankie but Perk as well. And if they received such great coaching in the minors (which I trust they did) is it not “a little bit” the players fault for losing sight of those lessons? It is his career after all.
I hope Frankie finds “it” again but ultimately that will be determined by his actions not Gardy or Andy’s handling of him.
fcmlefty,
That guy doesn’t exist anymore. He can’t bring like he used to. He can’t just overpower guys anymore. Hell, he can’t even find the zone enough to get ahead of and finish off hitters anymore. He’s not the worst guy on their staff but to paraphrase Pitino…2006 Francisco is not walking thru that door.
Liriano should have never changed his delivery. The reason for his injury was poor arm conditioning. His mechanics weren’t great, but based on the people that have come back stronger after TJS and why they were injured, his delivery was likley not the problem. It didn’t hep the situation, but again, his arm conditioning was vital in staying healthy.
I agree with the people above who are saying the Twins are trying to make him into something he’s not.
I feel very bad for him and wish him nothing but the best going forward.
His problem was that he threw 75% change ups with a messed up delivery. Even if he had a great conditioning program he would of not held up. Now he has to learn how to pitch, something he has never done before. Some people get it some don’t. So far he hasn’t.
You want to know what is the most troubling line in this fine article? Does it have to do with Liriano directly? No. Is it that Anderson is oversimplifying things? That’s true, but no. Know what it is?
It’s that our manager takes a cheapshot at fans in the final quote of the piece. It’s one thing to hammer the media for being unfair. But are you really going to come out and make fans feel like OUTSIDERS?
The more I see, the more that I believe The Old Maid (Gardy) is the core problem. Take your greatest coaches and managers in this or any game? Are they EVER going to take a cheapshot at the fans?
May seem like a small thing, but it’s indicative of larger problems at the helm. (I can provide more detail if needed.)
T-Mouse
That was far from a ‘cheap shot’. Just look over these blogs - poster after poster have suggested tons of names from outside the organization. The fact is, they aren’t here.
Give Gardy a break. People are probably always giving him advice that they “know” will fix this team. You know that’s gotta get annoying.
Like I said last night, I thought Rick Anderson said Liriano had his best bullpen session of the year over the weekend…
kirby91: my point is we don’t even know if that guy exists anymore. Since the moment he hopped off the operating table, they’ve told him he needs to be a fastball-change up Santana clone. Not once, from what I’ve gathered, have they even entertained the notion of him getting to be himself again.
I know two guys who I don’t want replacing Liriano in the rotation: R.A. Dickey or Bobby Keppel.
Heck, we might have won that game last night if Liriano went out to pitch the sixth inning.
Liriano wasn’t good last night. But the offense didn’t show up and the bullpen melted down (again) and yet Liriano gets all the blame.
4 ER in 5 innings is one of the better starts the Twins have had recently from any of their starters.
“Heck, we might have won that game last night if Liriano went out to pitch the sixth inning.”
Except for that small little issue of only getting one run last night…..
But I think I know what you are saying: It was the final nail in the coffin when the bullpen immediately gives up 4 runs in the 6th. No realistic chance of making it a game at that point.
I see the Red Sox signed Paul Byrd to a minor league contract. Twins should have been all over that.
I love it when people in sports start ripping on the fans. Without fans and their stupid opinions, they’d be working in gas stations or retail or in an office, just like those of us still lucky enough not to have been outsourced. I thought Gardy was losing it the more he ran Punto out there, but if he’s going to fall back on ripping those of us that put him in the top 1% of income in the country, well, he can go away for all I care.
As for Liriano, really? The guy with the worst ERA in the majors? They are just now thinking about benching him?
*in all fairness, he was actually decent in June. But, just like a team can get lucky and win a few here and there, it’s the accumulation of the season that tells the truth. And the truth ain’t pretty.
I thought Keppel would be on the first flight to Rochester after last night’s performance. He looks like he has zero confidence out there.
I thought Keppel would be on the first flight to Rochester after last night’s performance. He looks like he has zero confidence out there.
Didn’t you mean he has zero ‘ability’ out there?
Keppel sucks, Dickey sucks.
There is no reason why the Twins should have Anthony Slama STILL in AA, and Robert Delaney is pitching well at AAA.
Could those two really be ANY worse than Dickey and Keppel? Man, this organization is full of mindless morons.
It kills me that the Twins didn’t want to give up any minor league talent to trade for pitching, but when it comes to calling on that minor league talent to help the big league team, they claim there isn’t any.
I guess I missed where Gardy was ripping on fans. He seems smart enough to know not to do that.
Fans are going to be frustrated. They see all this talent on the team and yet we sit below .500. Imagine if the Vikes went 7-9 this year…Chili would be out of a job.
Does Seth or anyone who has been to a Red Wings game know how Manship has looked since he was brought to AAA? He is 24 years old which means he is older than 4 of the 5 starters in Oaklands rotation right now so he is not some young kid. If this season is lost why not start bringing up the kids who might be playing next year. Crede has done a fine job but I want to see Valencia play now so we can see if he is going to be our 3rd baseman next year. I want to see Slama and Delaney NOW. We know what we have with Dickey and Keppel and Crain and I don’t understand keeping them around. The Twins are not that good this year!!!!! We should be selling off guys that are worth something and calling up kids to see if they can play. I love Redman but some team may be willing to give us a prospect for him. This year we are not good enough. I would rather send the message to Mauer and Morneau that the team is looking at next year being the year we might actually be able to contend. I like what the Indians did. They were horrible this year so why stick with what you have? The Royals make no sense. They could have traded some people this year and look to the future. If you are going to finsih 25 games or more under .500 why stick with the junk that put you in that situation? I will always watch the Twins no matter what but I would rather watch some kids right now. Just my opinion so feel free to rip it apart.
OK so everyone here can rip on Gardy, but when he says something as simple (and accurate, I might add) pointing out that the guys many fans suggest replace Liriano aren’t with this team right now, he’s out of line?
Talk about your double standards.
ES16, I think what it really points out is that when the Twins asked about the availability of various pitchers from other teams, those teams also didn’t see anything among the Twins’ minor league pitchers that they could call on to help them.
If that’s all he said, then I don’t see much harm there.
Like people have been saying, Liriano probably deserves a bullpen demotion, but what happens when Perkins or Swarzak implode the next time out? We can’t replace all of these guys.
Frankie threw too many pitches last night, period. Yes, his defense let him down in the 4th inning, but there were also a number of warning track fly balls, including one where Span made a nice catch to save some runs. I’m not in the camp that demands Frankie be taken out of the rotation, but I will say, if nothing else, it would be an immediate upgrade to our struggling bullpen.
“Talk about your double standards”
JimC
Those double standards are an accepted part of sports. Fans can rip on players and coaches, but they are expected to take it an not return the disfavor.
Personally, I didn’t see anything wrong with Gardy’s comments. If you really wanted to I suppose you could interpret them as a dig at Smith for not getting any help. I just took them as Gardy’s acknowledging that we are frustrated and want a change and telling us that there isn’t much he can do.
Once again the Twins go into the toilet the day after putting up double digit runs. Gardy says that Laffey was too tough. If I recall Cabrera had 3 hits against “tough” Mr Laffey. They gave him a 7 pitch inning early and then a 6 pitch inning in the 6th. Apparently when they put up a 10+ spot like they did on Tuesday they think they can hack at anything after that. Does it take our newbie to show them how to take a professional approach to the plate?
saam, I don’t disagree but I just find it somewhat amusing that some people around here have such thin skins that something as relatively benign as what Gardy said would be taken as “ripping” fans. Of course, it could just be one more instance of looking for anything and everything possible to find fault with the guy.
Frankly, I think he makes enough mistakes in his game/pitching management that there’s not much point in making up stuff to criticize him for, but that’s just me.
And if it was, indeed, a dig at Smith for not getting any help, then God bless him. Smith deserves more than a dig for that.
A question for a coach or someone who knows more than me (well that’s not hard but…) Is Liriano main problem that he is over striding? When watching him I can see how hard it would be to have the same release point and be consistant when his left leg is trying to catch up with the rest of his body and then goes past throwing him off balance.
The real tragedy about our pitching situation is that this isn’t really a surprise. Anyone who has followed the team knew that our bullpen has been a need since last year, however Bill Smith did absolutely NOTHING during the offseason to address the situation. I’m sorry, he signed Luis Ayala so I stand corrected…he did LESS than nothing during the offseason to address the problem.
And one more thing: FOR GOD’S SAKES GARDY, STOP PLAYING PUNTO.
Two words:
Yadel Marti
http://riveraveblues.com/tag/yadel-marti/
I know, the link is to a Yankees blog, but hey, if they are looking, why not us? No worries about waiver wire transactions and he could be ready in a few weeks depending on conditioning. Put him in the bullpen or the starting rotation. High 80’s to low 90’s fastball and two solid secondary pitches “a sharp breaking curveball and a diving changeup.”
But what do I know?
He was also “Cuba’s best pitcher” in the 2006 WBC. Didn’t they take 2nd that year?
He simply needs a break. He is young and coming off injury. A tired arm has the potential to make a pitcher change an arm slot-loose control-compensate and re-injure. Rest him-we will need him in the future.
Twin-Bill:
I think you meant 75% sliders. This is true. His subpar mechanics mixed with his constant use hurt his arm, but iit was not the main reason for the problem.
Liriano’s arm was not use to the stresses being put on it. He went from AAA to bullpen to workhorse. That is an awfully hard adjustment for the arm to make.
I’m trying to explain this the best I can, but its kind of like working out. When your arms get tired, you start to use your back. When Liriano’s arm would get tired, he would throw more violently. If he had more stamina and stonger muscles that were use to these sudden stresses, he would not have been injured.
Yes, the slider was a factor. Yes, his mechanics were a factor. But almost every young pitcher has there own arm motion until they grow older.
J Crik et al, I can promise you my skin isn’t thin. But I can promise you that sometimes my brain isn’t sharp as it should be. I appear to have misinterpreted Gardy’s line. I thought he was saying — Fans can say what they want, but they (fans) are not on our ballclub. Now I see he was referring to other players that are not on our ballclub. My blame. Go Twins.
I know the starting pitching has been disappointing to say the least, especially Perkins, but how can Anderson go from a good pitching coach to people calling for his head in one season. The pitchers have to be accountable, you can’t put it on the coach! Baker is pitching better, Blackburn had a nice outing on Thursday, and Swarzek has done a good job filling in for Slowey. Without the consistent starting pitching from the other two spots, the Twins are at best a .500 ball club right now. Listening to a post game report on the radio a few weeks ago, that’s exactly what Jack Morris said, and I think he knows something about pitching. It isn’t Anderson’s fault!
