Reports: Penny to Giants; Harden stays with Cubs
Posted on August 31st, 2009 – 9:34 AMBy Joe Christensen
As of late Sunday night, the Twins had yet to request Cubs pitcher Rich Harden’s medical records, a person close to Harden told the Star Tribune, adding that a deal by today’s noon deadline appeared unlikely.
Harden, 27, has been on the disabled list seven times since 2005, so it would be uncharacteristic for the Twins to trade for him without first examining those medical records.
Then again, in eight starts since July 16, Harden is 3-1 with a 1.80 ERA, so it’s possible the Twins could roll the dice, giving the Cubs the prospects it would take to land Harden for the season’s final five weeks. Harden is a pending Type A free agent, so a team could offer him arbitration after the season and be compensated with two high picks in the 2010 draft if he signed with another team.
Twins officials still haven’t confirmed or denied that they are the team that claimed Harden, as ESPN Chicago reported.
Today, we also will learn whether the Twins placed a claim on Brad Penny, who had to be placed through release waivers before becoming a free agent. That waiver period also expires today, in time for teams to set potential playoff rosters by tonight’s 11 p.m., deadline.
Twins officials have not dismissed the possibility that they would pick up the remainder of Penny’s contract — and likely pay about $1.2 million for six starts — instead of letting Penny hit the open market. From all indications, Penny would prefer to sign with a National League team if he goes unclaimed, so the Twins only chance to get him would be to take on the contract.
Update: Bruce Levine, who had the original report for ESPN Chicago that the Twins are the team that claimed Harden, now reports that the Cubs will hold onto Harden.
Last night, La Velle heard that the Twins were looking at other pitching possibilities, besides Harden and Penny. We’ll be tracking this all day.
Update: SI.com’s Jon Heyman reports that Penny went unclaimed. I assume that means there’s very little chance he ends up with the Twins.
Update: Heyman now reports Penny is signing with the Giants for a pro-rated portion of the minimum salary.
222 Responses to "Reports: Penny to Giants; Harden stays with Cubs"
so, I guess we are to infer that there will be no new pickups for the starting rotation. Sad.
not getting at least one starting pitcher today would make it very difficult to get to the playoffs. gotta get it done Bill Smith
Harden yes…..Penny, please no. I just don’t think he’s worth it or that much of an upgrade. I just don’t think he meshes well.
Harden though seems like a good fit, especially with how he pitches. I say the roll the dice for him Billy Boy, roll that dice.
It’s not all under Smith’s control.
Joe, Don’t the Cubs guarantee Harden’s health by placing him on waivers?
Trading a bunch of prospects for an often-injured pitcher sounds like a bad idea to me. If Harden’s pitching mechanics are hurting his arm, then his great stuff won’t be around very long. Ask Francisco Liriano.
Bill Smith controls everything, including the weather.
I forgot, scottz.
Good question, Matt. What are the waiver rules relating to pre-existing injuries?
I’m sure he’ll get blamed for bad weather next year, too.
Please, please, please no to Penny.
And i’m betting the Twins didnt confirm it was them because they knew they had little shot of grabbing Harden. I think we all got too excited.
Penny is awful.
The Red Sox weren’t allowed to look at Billy Wagner’s medical records because the Mets were guaranteeing his health by placing him on waivers.
The same should apply to Harden. What’s this person close to Harden talking about?
If there is no deal I think Bill Smith should still be commended for the job he has done with trades. Lets remember that he traded for Orlando Cabrera, Carl Pavano, Ron Mahey, and Jon Rauch to the major league team. That is saying alot on how hard that Smith is trying to help the team. If we don’t trade for Harden it is not necessarily a bad thing as he is an injury risk and not someone I would give good prospects for. If the Cubs came down on their demands I would do it but if not I can’t see giving guys like Tosoni, Delaney, Slama, or Hermsen in a trade because you likely aren’t going to resign them. He has made his fair share of trades but sometimes the best trades are the ones you don’t make so give him a pass after all he has done lately i think he has earned it
they’ve invested at least 3 prospects so far and still need a good starter to be a serious playoff team. get harden if possible, baker, pavano and harden would be a good playoff rotation. if harden doesn’t resign he’s type a free agent and we’d get draft picks to replace what was traded. we missed a playoff chance last year because of not helping the bullpen, now’s the chance to go after it. it sure should say something to mauer if they make this move.
How could the Mets guarantee the health of a guy just coming off Tommy John surgery? It was TJ that Wagner had, wasn’t it? I’m not questioning what you’re saying, Steve, I’d just like to know what the rule is.
I’d like to hear an answer to Matt’s question regarding whether or not placing a player on waivers gaurantees that’s player’s health - does anybody know?
Thanks!
I’d just like to know what the rule is
the rule is: caveat emptor
If Smith decides to go for Harden, the Twins have a very good chance of landing him; I don’t think too much excitement was made of all this.
The Cubs have Soriano, Zambrano, Dempster, Lilly, Bradley, Fukudome, Ramirez, and Lee all combining to make $109MM in 2010. Aaron Miles is another $2.7MM, plus arbitration raises to several of their current players.
Offering Harden arbitration could blow up in Jim Hendry’s face in a terrible way. If Harden accepts, he’ll be due $9-$10MM, which is a gamble the Cubs should certainly try to avoid, given that they can still field a decent rotation without Rich.
If they can get something decent from us, they’d be wise to take it really. The Twins can offer arbitration and handle the increased payroll if he accepts.
Harden just might accept arbitration too, given his injury history. He may want to prove his health for one more season to increase the likelihood of getting a big-time long-term deal. Plus, if he gets hurt again, he’s at least guaranteed himself another $9MM+ year of work - not a bad deal for him.
kick the roadblocks aside and get the damn job done for once- theyve taken so many chances on total losers, take one now on someone who can actually help…..other news- walters says only ones coming up from AAA are swarzak, tolbert and buscher….nothing new and exciting there-just taking up space with those 3 - what about huber, tolleson etc…will this be a good day in twins land or a major let down…time will tell
Isn’t the trade deadline in 45 minutes?
Isn’t the trade deadline in 45 minutes?
1 PM EDT.
on another note, the Twins announced that Buscher, Tolbert and Swarzak will be called up tomorrow…
By placing a player on waivers, a team is basically saying “this guy is healthy, and good to go.”
There was talk that if the Sox traded for Wagner, and he wound up getting injured this year (in the same elbow obviously), MLB could reverse the trade if it could be proven that the new injury was related to the old one.
that doesn’t say much for our minor league prospects if the best they can do is buscher and tolbert!
According to a quick search, by placing a player on waivers the team doing the placing is effectively guaranteeing the health. If a player is traded and found to be injured, MLB could step in and void the trade plus somehow punish the team.
Steve from Fridley…it’s logic like yours that get’s in the way of pessimistic thought. I’m from Alaska and would like to buy some ice.
that doesn’t say much for our minor league prospects if the best they can do is buscher and tolbert!
I think that is says more about Gardy and the FO than it says about the Twins’ system… They have a guy who hit 22 HRs in AAA.
If we hit the skids and/or it becomes apparent that there will be not catching the Tigers, then we might see some prospects. But why bring them up now? They’ll just take seats on the bench and get in the way. No chance they’d play with the division still in reach.
Harden would be a huge help and addition for next year in the new stadium.
Heres your answer. . . rules state that by placing a player on waivers teams are putting a guarantee of full health on that player. If there is any physical issue, the team is required to pull the player back off of waivers.
If the team trades or assigns the player, and then it is determined the player is not healthy, Major League Baseball revokes the waivers and assigns the player back to his original team.
Bottom line, there is no such thing as a request for a physical on a waiver claim.
Harden’s playoff record is 1-3 with a 7 ERA and 1.9 WHIP. Doesn’t sound like anything to get too excited about. I wouldn’t give up too much to get him. Maybe Slama or Delaney but certainly not both of those guys.
Thanks John for the correct answer. Its amazing the JC or LaVelle have these jobs. They never ask the tough questions that should be answered. Both should do coverage of high school sports only and leave the Major Leagues to Professional writers.
I did a quick check myself. I think a guarantee of health is badly phrasing it, bu tht ebottom line is, if there is a pre-existing injury and it rears its ugly head, all the players go back to where they were. Interesting.
you would have thought that Joe would know about that rule right?
good research john..now that the health isn’t an issue, go get him!
I agree TrvarisTalks,
The Twins farm system is borderline garbage. I was happy Smith got Cabrera.
It’s interesting to see what people in Chicago think…I’ve seen some comments on sites looking at this trade and thinking they’re going to get somebody like Gomez or Span.
As far as the other pitching aquisitions are concerned, all three appeared this weekend and just going by the box scores did well (Pavano only 2 runs, Mahay and Rauch I think threw shutout innings)
As far as Penny or Harden…you may not think they are “amazing” or whatever the word would be. But if you look at who is currently slated to pitch Tuesday (Manship) I currently have more faith in either of those two in a stretch run than a guy making his first career start.
And I would be more concerned with Harden’s health if the Twins are looking at an extension. If they aren’t, it’s possible they don’t care about his long term health becuase they don’t plan on keeping him past the season.
“that doesn’t say much for our minor league prospects if the best they can do is buscher and tolbert!
I think that is says more about Gardy and the FO than it says about the Twins’ system”
In the Pioneer Press it has a couple quotes from Gardy that he wanted Valencia brought up, but the Twins would have to move “one of their top prospects” off the 40 man roster in order to put Valencia on there and bring him up.
Yes, the Cubs are guaranteeing Harden’s health by placing him on waivers. If he’s found to be unhealthy, the Cubs would get him back. You can’t put guys who aren’t healthy on waivers. For instance, if it comes up that Wagner was injured, he’d go back to the Mets.
Penny isn’t all that great, no. But he’s a veteran with a RING . . . and he knows how to pitch in the playoffs. I’ll take that over the garbage we’re planning on finishing the season with (Manship? Duensing?) Get Harden AND Penny. Even if it’s just for this season.
As far as the Twins confirming/denying waiver claims…I think the fact that no other team has had ANY info regarding Harden should be strong indications that they are in fact purusing it.
However, how does the claim process work…as right now the White Sox are BELOW the Twins, in the standings…which would mean that once Penny hits the waivers they could put in a block.
Or am I confusing release/trade waivers again?
matt,
I saw that article, but this: the Twins would have to move “one of their top prospects” off the 40 man roster is the writer’s speculation… The Twins could easily more the non-prospects Tolbert, Buscher and Keppel (and Redmond, too if they have to) to accommodate Valencia and others
Or am I confusing release/trade waivers again?
yeap. They were awarded the claim on Fri when they were ahead of the WSox on the picking order. They have until today to work it out.
here is a quality starting pitcher, presented to u on a silver platter, which is what we need and we dont go get him. That is pathetic, they missed on washburn, now harden, bill smith should b fired if they dont make the playoffs
thry: What about Penny? My understanding was that he isn’t officially released until later this morning, at which point he is exposed to waivers.
Which would put the Sox below the Twins and thus first in line to claim. Which to me is why the Twins are being vauge about the Harden/Penny thing. Because I think the prevailing notion is if they get one they won’t bother for the other…but they could quite possibly be looking at both.
Twins claimed Harden so DET OR CHICAGO COULD NOT
Penny’s always been terrible, away from Dodger Stadium. I actually would rather go with Manship, even without considering the cost required for Penny’s six starts vs. the cost for Manship.
Harden’s a tough call. This team’s not going anywhere in the playoffs without a legit number one, which Harden could be. But even then we’re really in longshot territory when you’re talking about beating LA or NY. I’d give up a decent prospect for Harden, but not much more.
If we end up with Harden and he leaves via FA (type A), we get the 2 supplemental draft picks (and not the cubs) right? Also, assuming we trade for Harden and resign him, what kinda contract is he going to want? I’m thinking we offer a max of 4 years $40mil. Ideally I’d like us to sign him for 3 years at around $25 mil (with games-started bonuses)
Probably a little late for either/both.
Harden well worth it, He has pitched very well and would help Twins more than Penny. Harden ERA past few weks is 1.80.
thry: What about Penny? My understanding was that he isn’t officially released until later this morning, at which point he is exposed to waivers.
Someone can claim him before today. For him to be “released” means that the was not claimed. The Twins could have claimed him last week, and since they had the worse record of all contenders (both AL and NL) they would be on top of the order. If a team claims him, the Red Sox have until a particular day to a. work a trade or b. let the team have him and pick his salary. Also if a team claims him he is not “released”. Same thing the Twins did with Morillo earlier this season.
chi tribune says twins balking at chicagos asking price of slama and delaney according to an article last eve- if thats true, i dont blame them for holding off- theres no way in hell you give up both, especially with nathan maybe approaching the downward slope a bit…delaney and someone else? a lesser prospect is a deal that i would be ok with
whats the word about this deal ?? not hearing much here in Chicago
mj1 says:
August 31st, 2009 at 10:12 am
kick the roadblocks aside and get the damn job done for once- theyve taken so many chances on total losers, take one now on someone who can actually help…..
mj1 says:
August 31st, 2009 at 11:03 am
chi tribune says twins balking at chicagos asking price of slama and delaney according to an article last eve- if thats true, i dont blame them for holding off-
So which is it. Grouse about “just get it done” but also “dont give anything up”????
Maybe its not as easy as all the blog geniuses think it is.
One hour to go on the trade front!
If Slama and Delaney really were can’t miss types, one or both would be here. i also find it highly unlikely those are the two prospects the Cubbies are looking at.
thry: So the only reason nothing was “confirmed” with Penny was because today was the day his release would have been granted (had he not been claimed)
Correct?
What if the Cubs insist on getting, say, Span and valencia for Harden? Smith should be fired if he doesn’t pull the trigger? Now, I don’t think the Cubs will insist on that much if they’re serious about a trade, but there is no requirement for them to be reasonable.
what can you tell me about slama & delaney
taking a chance does not nec mean giving up both your top relievers….thats all…but there should be other alternatives that would work…
I believe the race will be over by Thursday with the Twins throwing Blackburn, who cannot get it back together, Manship’s major league premier and Duensing who’s like a box of chocolates. All against 3 sub 4.00 guys, 2 of which are lefties.
Tiger play the Indians at home. I would like to be optimistic, so, Billy, give me something to hope for.
Yet one more example of why I should hit “refresh” before posting. Still, Slama and Delaney may be a bit steep for a month (hopefully 2) of Harden.
Dood, those were only two names mentioned in a chicago article last eve - that supposedly was their original asking price - beyond that i dont have a clue
I is hard to believe the Twins would not trade for Rich Harden, one of the most un-hittable pitchers in the Major Leagues. They should be willing to trade any of their Minor Leaguers except Morales, Valencia, and Pino. With 5 to 6 starts remaining for each starter, the team would have a real chance of gaining the necessary ground they need on Detroit.
ESPNChicago.com is reporting no deal was reached: http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/news/story?id=4434155
I’d take the gamble on Harden. I would like to see Harden, Baker, Slowey in the rotation next year. It may also give us some options for packaging 1 or 2 SP’s and an outfielder for a top-notch #1 (King Felix, Doc All-Day). I would think a combo of Liriano/Blacky/Perkins/Duensing and Cuddyer or a top minor leaguer might land one of them.
mj1, check this out -
“Hendry has set a high asking price for the guy he acquired from Oakland a little more than 13 months ago, reportedly seeking two solid prospects — perhaps relievers Anthony Slama and Rob Delaney?” - Phil Rogers, Chicago Tribune
So Rogers thinks Slama and Delaney would be enough to get Harden. If you read the rest of that article you realize Rogers doesn’t know enough about the proceedings to suggest that was ever on the table.
espn just posted NO-DEAL for Twins & Cubs
Boneyard, from the other day…the golf game is about the same…1 step forward, 2 steps back.
I’m still hoping for the addition of either Harden or Penny. Hopefully Harden at a reasonable price.
Since we don’t really know what the Cubs are asking, it’s hard to complain about Bill Smith no “getting it done.” Isn’t it? Guess not.
Why would the Mariners want to trade King Felix?
werbellik, at least you get the one step forward. I didn’t even get that my last time out. I was horrible. Oh, well.
Smith cannot trade Span…only legit lead-off hitter the Twins have.
MLemke,
No way the Mariners accept that. They reportedly declined on Adrian Gonzalez,Caly Buchholz and prospects
The White Sox could have put in a claim yesterday - when they were behind the Twins in the standings and would be awarded the claim even though the Twins would have claimed him earlier.
Once a player is put on waivers teams have 47 hours to put in a claim.
“There is no advantage to submitting the claim in the first hour or the 47th hour.” - From Steve Phillips’ article on ESPN http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=phillips_steve&id=2130379
So the Twins could have put in a claim while they were worse than the White Sox, but then by passing the White Sox in the standings, the White Sox would have priority.
taking a chance does not nec mean giving up both your top relievers….
If you aren’t giving up anything of value, you aren’t “taking a chance”.
And if you aren’t giving up anything of value, you aren’t going to get anything in return.
Honestly, I would prefer the two draft picks over Slama and Delaney. If they were any kind of real prospects at all they would have already been called up. You guys act like they are the next Gooden/Darling prospects.
I say go for it and if Harden goes Type A then use the picks wisely. The last couple of drafts the Twins look like they have turned it around over prior years, hence the deluge of talent at single A and the lack of talent at AAA.
The waiver period for trades before the Sept. 1 roster deadline will come and go without the Chicago Cubs having made a deal, according to Major League Baseball sources.
Rich Harden, claimed by the Minnesota Twins, and Aaron Heilman, claimed by the San Francisco Giants, will continue to pitch for the Cubs.
The teams were not able to work out deals over the 72-hour period allowed after a team puts in a claim on a player.
Bruce Levine in Chicago reported “deal is pretty much dead” ….
Well, if Hicks was “any kind of real prospect at all,” why isn’t he up here? The Twins have invested time and money into Slama and Delaney from the time when they were draftees. It’s not all that easy just to decide to start over with draft picks when you are talking about a rental. That being said, I think Harden would be a great addition. Just not at any price.
Delany and Slama are our best relief prospects. The key word is prospects. Just because they need another year or two before they make the major league club doesn’t mean they are worthless. Even if we drafted two top prospects in next year’s draft after trading for Harden (and him leaving) we then push ourselves another 3-4 years back before our new prospects are ready. You don’t trade those guys, period. This whole “if they were that great they’d be up here already” argument is BS. You don’t understand some basic contractual nuances that involve service time and options.
my guess there was never any intent to trade for harden they were just blocking him from going to the sox or tigers as has been mentioned above.
however, if they had a chance to get him after spending the prospects for these other guys then ruesse was probably correct on sunday. time to go all in or fold has past.
Boneyard,
Hicks isn’t up here becaue he is just finishing up his 2nd year in the minors. He would also just add to our current logjam in the outfield.
maybe there’s someone else out there…. but I thought that the deadline was 11:00 PM or 11:00 AM… not 12:00 Noon…. Everything is eastern time…so I thought it was Midnight Eastern…
Er, D-Luxxx, just trying to point out the flaw in FJB’s argument.
Just when I was going to let Billy off the hook. Well there’s always next year.FIRE BILL SMITH!
i have a feeling b smith has a plan b for all this, if harden isnt going to work, i hope i am right
Got ya Boneyard. Knee jerk reaction.
FROM ESPN AT 11AM CENTRAL, THIS MORNING:
The waiver period for trades before the Sept. 1 roster deadline will come and go without the Chicago Cubs having made a deal, according to Major League Baseball sources.
Rich Harden, claimed by the Minnesota Twins, and Aaron Heilman, claimed by the San Francisco Giants, will continue to pitch for the Cubs.
The teams were not able to work out deals over the 72-hour period allowed after a team puts in a claim on a player.
I don’t think the Twins could trade Span or Gomez for Harden. Wouldn’t players on the Major League roster have to clear waivers to be eligible to be traded?
There is no acceptable plan B.
just read on trade rumors that harden and heilman will be staying with the cubs
Too bad Billy Smith didn’t act quicker on this…..like a month ago!
See you next year Shazel
It’s too bad we couldn’t work it out for Harden. I’m wondering how meaningful the deadline has to be with regards to the other pitchers we’er looking at? My concern is not so much that we have them for the play-off roser as that we get someone better then Manship to fill the 5th spot for the remaining 5 or 6 starts. Sure it would be nice to at least of the option, but we will likely go with a 3 man rotation, and it isn’t automatic that a Penny or Garland would start over Nick Blackburn anyway…
The Twins chances have now softened without a deal for Harden.
It’s a play on words. Get it?
Oh well, no big shocker there. Why risk the future for the present that never comes?
The TWins have a half dozen guys on the 40 man that will be cut off of it in November, when they have to add Valencia at that time. cutting them now, and adding Valencia, means you don’t have Buscher at 3B. that’s a good thing.
I agree w Billy on this one. Trading Slama and Delaney for a 5 week rental would not be a good move.
I think the Cubbies not being able to trade Heilman should show that their GM is to blame. He’s got some bizzaro world demands if he can’t move that guy.
the bums will be up,
tomorrow, tomorrow
bet the Twins bottum dollar that tomorrow
there’ll be bums
D Luxx, your service time argument has no merit. Take a moment to evaluate these guys and then make your argument. Slama will be 26 in January, Delaney turns 25 in a week. Both hit AAA during this season, with neither having significant results so far (Slama has only a handful of appearances, so it’s not a great sample). Both are college pitchers and if you believe conventional wisdom the college pitcher should be in the majors by the middle of the third year. Well, Slama is completing year three and Delaney is completing year four and neither are here and in Slama’s case next year looks to be AAA. At a minimum, they are under the curve, so to speak. Again, my point being if they were any good they would already be here.
Harden turns 28 in November and is a proven commodity, albeit with injury history. Just because Slama and Delaney are the Twins’ top AAA prospects doesn’t mean they are any good. Why not take a chance if someone is willing to take players with relatively low projected upside? Worst case scenario is two draft picks for a scouting department that has shown improved drafting over the last two years, versus holding out hope for next year with likely the next Jessie Crain.
Didn’t you guys hear? The Twins picked up Jarrod Washburn, to pitch like complete crap for the Tigers.
He just gave up 6 earned runs to the Rays before getting the first out.
junior, got a url for that yahoo sports confirmation?
Oh well, I’m kinda glad that I don’t have to pass that brick now.
how much of slama and delaney or one of them not being here because of a guy named joe nathan?? good possibility maybe- thats my take…if nathan went down i believe slama would be the first call up…
Isn’t all this “playoff roster is set by 9/1″ stuff a bunch of BS anyway? As I recall, a team can replace a guy who IS on their eligible playoff roster with a guy who ISN’T any time the former comes up with an injury (wink, wink, nod, nod).
So what if it’s Sept 3 when they make a trade for a SP? If the stars align and the Twins make the playoffs with that pitcher making significant contributions, you pretty much have to imagine that someone on the “eligible” list will turn up “injured”… opening a spot for the new guy.
Jedidiah: They also aquired Jake Peavy to not pitch for the White Sox. They were even smart enough to give up a member of the Sox’s current rotation to do so.
Billy Smith fails again. If I were Joe Mauer I would sign some where else when my contract is done because the twins will not play for today. Most of these so-called brilliant pitching prospects the Twins won’t trade have not panned out. Just once, take a chance. Last one in Jack Morris seemed to pay off.
If we find out that the cubs ONLY wanted Slama and Delaney and Bill Smith did not act, it should be another nail in his coffin.
My guess is they wanted more.
JC: I seem to recall something like that being how David Price found his way onto the Rays roster last season.
It’s dead anyhow.
You can find ways to get guys from you minors on the play-off rosters due to injury. But I’m pretty sure you cannot acquire a player from outside the organization after noon today and have them on the play-off roster.
Shame on Bill Smith!, for not jumping all over Rich Harden
From MLBTradeRumors
12:22pm: Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports hears that the Cubs are less motivated to move Harden now than they were last week. The team has started playing well and has an outside shot at the NL Wild Card.
I’m not sure if it’s the Cubs playing well or the Rockies faltering…but I guess if they think they’ve still got a chance you won’t be able to talk them in to it.
Lame.
any player traded after today would not be eligible for post season play with that team under any circumstance…injury replacement would have to come from teams orgi 40 man roster..thats what i believe to be true
matt says:
August 31st, 2009 at 10:43 am
“that doesn’t say much for our minor league prospects if the best they can do is buscher and tolbert!
I think that is says more about Gardy and the FO than it says about the Twins’ system”
In the Pioneer Press it has a couple quotes from Gardy that he wanted Valencia brought up, but the Twins would have to move “one of their top prospects” off the 40 man roster in order to put Valencia on there and bring him up.
—————–
If that is indeed true, Tolbert owes the FO big time.
Why would the twins claim Harden and then let him slip right through there fingers.
anyone have any idea what other possible pitching prospects lavelle said the twins were pursuing could be - i read that same artile but have no idea who or what they are referring to…anybody??
OK, the “must be a member of the organization on 8/31″ makes sense.
As for Harden, it would have been great to get him, but I think it’s premature to go all ape on Smith’s back before anyone even knows what kind of deal was on the table. The Cubs held all the cards in this situation and it’s very likely they were not afraid to play them. People that think you must make a deal, regardless of cost, just aren’t very realistic.
I wonder if Valencia couldn’t still end up being added today if the FO doesn’t make any more outside deals. If they were, as reported, still trying to add 1-2 pitchers that would require opening spots on the 40-man roster, I can understand holding off on adding Valencia, too, and requiring yet another spot to be cleared.
But if they don’t get any more outside help, I really don’t see it being all that tough to find one more body off the 40-man to jettison… they’re going to have to by next year anyway.
Why would the twins claim Harden and then let him slip right through there fingers.
They claimed Harden, which meant they were willing to take the salary if Cubs said “Fine”.
It also meant they had a deal in mind if they had to exchange players for him. However if the Cubs ask for too much, or if the Cubs change their mind…there’s not much he can do.
And the “do anything” crowd is the same crowd that complains that Young/Garza was a bad trade.
It’s win/win for them.
barf on bill smith for effing with our minds.
Dood says:
August 31st, 2009 at 12:15 pm
I think the Cubbies not being able to trade Heilman should show that their GM is to blame. He’s got some bizzaro world demands if he can’t move that guy.
————–
Thats how I’m reading it as well.
I posted (when the whole Harden thing first came up) that I was extremely skeptical anything would come of it, so I’m not surprised nothing did.
There is no way to know, but I’m still doubtful Harden would make it through the entire NL on waivers in the first place.
Derek,
I agree with you - here is the link to the article: http://www.twincities.com/sports/ci_13236437
It almost sounds like Gardy would rather see him than Tolbert or Buscher coming up. I liked Buscher last year and was hoping he would be a decent bench player and give the team some depth, but I don’t understand why the Twins replace his spot on the 40 man roster with Valencia.
barf on bill smith for effing with our minds.
For what? Putting a claim on a player in an attempt to land him? The FO never said anything about this the whole time. It was the commenters that spun it into next Tuesday.
Chief: You may be on to something…
MLBTradeRumors:
1:38pm: ESPN.com’s Buster Olney hears that the Cubs aren’t likely to deal Harden. Many teams claimed the righty and it’s likely that an NL team won the claim.
Chief, apparently Buster Olney agrees with you.
Harden would be nice to pick up but I worry about health concerns that he has had. 7 trips to the DL since 2005 and he is only 27 years old. With time he could break down even more often is what I would be more concerned about.
So what is the “other options” they’re looking at. We heard about Penny, and Gardy seemed certain somebody new was coming.
Plus there’s the report about Liriano and Perkins being relievers when they get back.
They’re making room for something…
If Rosenthal’s report saying that the Cubs backed off because they thought they still have a chance at the playoffs is true, then Jim Hendry is the one who needs to be mocked here, not Bill Smith.
The Cubs went 3-3 against the Nationals and Mets; that’s not a surge.
I think Smith is making a concerted effort to improve this team, and while I’m not a fan of him in general to this point, I don’t think it’s fair to be claiming he dropped the ball yet.
Jim Hendry has been the most delusional general manager in baseball for the past year. He’s absolutely destroyed the Cubs franchise, and could very well be grasping at whatever straws are left of the 2009 season. If you look at the contracts owed to aging, underperforming veterans on that club, and the complete lack of a farm system, you’ll see one of the most hopeless franchises in baseball following the 2009 season.
“And the “do anything” crowd is the same crowd that complains that Young/Garza was a bad trade.
It’s win/win for them.”
This is such a truism that it should be tattooed on the foreheads of all the complainers here.
If the CHEAP POHLAD’s spent money at the beginning of the year to get a few quality players, they would not be in this fix. Again, how many cheap FA pickups have crashed and burned in Minnesota. Well don’t ask Billy Smith. He thinks he is doing a great job.
It’s the whole concept of “you can’t please anyone.”
The same people who will string Smith up for not pulling the trigger on Harden are the same people who would go headhunting for him if we traded for Harden and he posted an ERA over 6.00 and we missed the postseason.
I’m unhappy that Harden won’t be coming to Minnesota, but we should look at some of the logic behind it first before we write it off as another chapter in the book of Bill Smith’s mistakes.
If a report comes out saying that the Cubs demanded Aaron Hicks, Danny Valencia, and Shooter Hunt… I don’t think anyone will blame Smith.
If we could’ve had him cheaply, there’s another story. It all remains to be seen. For now, let’s just hope that Duensing can keep rolling, and that Manship has something to offer this team.
You can’t please “everyone”* oops. 
Although sometimes, my original comment seems more true…
“the Twins announced that Buscher, Tolbert and Swarzak will be called up tomorrow…”
Sorry to pile on, but I just don’t get it. Swarzak, OK, you can never have enough arms. But Buscher and Tolbert have both proven they cannot play at the big league level.
Steve: From the way it sounds, the Cubs wanted the kinds of prospects that wouldn’t be worth a month of Harden. And the Twins may have looked at his history and been concerned that he wouldn’t be worth the investment it would take to sign him and thus make it worth the prospects.
I would’nt classify complaining about not being able to pick up Rich Harden as complaining about anything. The guy has more than one year of proven success in the majors, and while he does have a history of injuries, he is probably the closest the Twins would have come to picking up a real #1 starter.
While I like the way that Baker and Pavano have pitched lately, for some reason I just would’nt feel as confident seeing either one of them going against a playoff team’s #1 as I would in seeing Harden.
We know that the team will never sign a #1 starter because of the draft picks it would cost. So the best chance will be through development or trade, and seeing that the team does’nt have anyone close to being that right now in the minors, Harden would have been their best bet IMO.
Over the past 13 seasons, no team that led a division by more than three games entering September has failed to make the playoffs.
I like many am not a Bill Smith fan. The Garza/Bartlett trade is one of the worst trades in pro sports the last 5 years. Plus not getting enough for Santana. Right now it is looking like we would have been better off taking the draft picks instead of what we got. But I am not ready to get on his case too much about this non-deal. First as previous posters have stated some reports, including Buster Olney who is pretty reliable are saying the Twins didnt win the claim…so there may have been no trade to make. 2nd, lets see what the Cubs wanted for a rent-a player who is injury prone. I cant fault the Cubs for asking for a lot, if they hold on to Harden and let him go, they get two first round picks, so the package they get back would need to be similar to that talent. I think we should wait a few days until the Harden facts come out before making a judgement on Billy Smith.
Wasnt the deadline to trade him an hour ago? Or is it 12 midnight?
I would’nt classify complaining about not being able to pick up Rich Harden as complaining about anything.
It’s more along the lines of complaining without knowing anything.
The same source that said the Twins won the claim is now reporting that mulitple teams made claims, with an NL team winning it (due to how it works).
There’s also the report (again from the source that broke the story initally) that the Cubs want to retain Harden as they feel (regardless of what we think) that they have a shot at the playoffs.
If a team doesn’t want to deal, you aren’t going to be able to negotiate. It’d be like jumping on a GM for not trying to score Mauer or Morneau from the Twins during the 08 offseason.
I would’nt classify complaining about not being able to pick up Rich Harden as complaining about anything.
It’s more along the lines of complaining without knowing anything.
The same source that said the Twins won the claim is now reporting that mulitple teams made claims, with an NL team winning it (due to how it works).
There’s also the report (again from the source that broke the story initally) that the Cubs want to retain Harden as they feel (regardless of what we think) that they have a shot at the playoffs.
If a team doesn’t want to deal, you aren’t going to be able to negotiate. It’d be like jumping on a GM for not trying to score Mauer or Morneau from the Twins during the 08 offseason.
The Garza/Bartlett trade is one of the worst trades in pro sports the last 5 years.
Wow. The worst 5 trades in pro sports….that is the level of hyperbole I’ve come to expect from the whiners around here.
The Garza/Bartlett trade is one of the worst trades in pro sports the last 5 years.
I would say it is among the worst disasters in the last 2000 years of human civilation. No exaggeration!
‘The Garza/Bartlett trade is one of the worst trades in pro sports the last 5 years.”
I guess it would be kind of tough to name 5 worse trades in the last 5 years. I would say that the Roy for Foye T’Wolves trade was not as bad as the Garza/Bartlett trade.
But looking back Bartlett was a 27 year old SS who was coming off a year where he hit .265 and Delmon Young was a 21 year old outfielder who was coming off a year where he hit .288 with 93 RBI. It’s hard to not see the potential that they were looking at there, but I guess I’m not a talent evaluator.
a lot of things we don’t know you know!
one thing i think we know is that even if we were to catch and pass the tigers this team doesn’t appear to be any serious playoff contender if that happens. harden may have changed that but we will never know.
The fact that there were so many people with sources saying the Twins were working to get Harden tells me there was some truth to it.
If, in fact, an NL team won the claim, that wouldn’t preclude the Twins getting involved with some sort of “claim-then-trade” deal with the claiming team. Of course, that just introduces more moving parts to the equation.
The Twins could theoretically agree to terms with the team that won the claim… but if that team couldn’t get Harden from the Cubs, there’s no deal to be made.
I could see a non-contending NL team risking making the claim, being confident there’s no way the Cubs would just let him go without compensation, then spinning him off to a contender, such as the Twins, for the best prospects they could get.
Well, it is disappointing to not get another arm, but the FO has tried, at least. Hopefully that trend will continue during the offseason.
Let’s play hypotheticals at 3B. Let’s say Crede gets another shot in the spine and it doesn’t work. Is there anything (according to rule or logic) that would stop the Twins from dropping Crede from the 40-man and putting Valencia on it, then calling him up? If it doesn’t happen by tomorrow, he couldn’t be in the post-season (if the Twins made the post-season), but it would seem worthwhile to me, to give Valencia a little big league experience, and perhaps help the team a bit too, even though he personally wouldn’t be going to any playoffs.
I love how people bash Smith for the Garza trade. Garza was bad attitude cancer and DY was one of the greatest minor leaguers of all time.
I do blame him for trading Bartlett though, as I was sad to see him go.
wow matt. That Roy/Foye trade is much, much worse. Not even close.
Lol, well T, you sound like you know your stuff, name me 5 trades worse than that since 2004 where one team gives up a great shorstop who is .337 with 11 hrs 58 rbi’s and 24 sb’s and a pitcher who is 7-9, but who’s ERA 3.99 is better than all the Twins starters and has almost a K per 9 innings for a .260 something hitter with some power who is shaky at best on defense. Right now up the middle who could have Cabrera-Bartlett, and a Rotation of Baker,Pavano,Garza 1-2-3, we would be a lot better off right now. I know its hard to compare football and baseball and etc, but considering the circumstances, we didnt have to trade either one, there contracts weren’t up or anything, so its not a Santana situation. Name me 5 worse trades. You cant.
a big i think, if crede went on the 60 dl they would open a spot and valencia could take his place and be put on the post season roster as a replacement for crede. has to be a position swap, same thing that happened with the angels when they brought up rodriquez.
T,
I don’t buy the Slama/Delaney rumor; that seemed like nothing more than pure speculation from Phil Rogers. The injury history may be what influenced the decision, but remember we wouldn’t only be getting one month of Harden.
We’d either be getting September, plus two compensatory draft picks, or an additional year of Harden around $9MM. All things considered, that’s worth giving up something decent for.
As I said before, I’ll hold off on judging until I get more information about what the Cubs were asking and what Bill Smith’s reasoning behind not pulling the trigger was.
We’re still not even 100% certain the Twins are the ones who claimed him, although for all of this talk, you have to assume it was us. Otherwise, we’d have denied it at some point.
I guess it would be kind of tough to name 5 worse trades in the last 5 years.
In ALL of pro sports? Seriously?
How about the Tigers trading 6 minor leaguers for “3B” Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis?
How about the White Sox trading one of their current starters so that at some point Jake Peavy could pitch for them (maybe)?
name me 5 trades worse than that since 2004 where one team gives up a great shorstop who is .337 with 11 hrs 58 rbi’s and 24 sb’s and a pitcher who is 7-9, but who’s ERA 3.99 is better than all the Twins starters and has almost a K per 9 innings for a .260 something hitter with some power who is shaky at best on defense.
That’s a pretty detailed set of requirements. The fact you consider it a worse trade than Santana makes it even more obvious that you’re a member of the Hyperbole Brigade.
Mike, I have to disagree. In the Foye trade, the T-Wolves traded away an all-star for a bust. But in the Bartlett/Garza deal they traded away 2 great young players for a bust. If the Wolves had traded Roy and someone else for Foye, I would agree. Plus Eduardo Morlan is having a great year at AA for the Rays, and may be the teams future closer my buddy in Tampa told me. He’s supposed to have K-Rod type stuff. The throw in we got in return….Jason Pridie (trying not to laugh). This trade just gets worse and worse every week.
Five trades worse than the Delmon trade? Easy:
1. Braves acquire Teixeira from the Rangers
2. Mariners acquire Bedard from the Orioles
3. Astros acquire Miguel Tejada from the Orioles
4. Royals acquire Yuniesky Betancourt from the Mariners
5. Reds acquire Scott Rolen from the Blue Jays
All hopeless deals that have no chance of working out for the team that acquired the player in question.
The Braves, Mariners, and Astros shipped off their future, the Royals sent their #3 prospect plus others for the worst everyday player in baseball, and the Reds handcuffed themselves for next year while sending three talented young players to Toronto for an aging, injury-prone third baseman who’s lost his power and makes $11MM next season.
And, just because you mentioned all of pro sports… how about the Mavericks shipping off Devin Harris for Jason Kidd in 2008?
T, well if the Santana trade is worse, than thats 1, I said 5 trades that were worse. And I believe the Bartlett/Garza trade was worse because of circumstances. There was no reason to trade either one, contracts werent expiring, no reason at all. The Santana trade we should have got more or taken the draft picks, but considering our cheap ownership, we had to let him go one way or another. We didnt have to let Bartlett/Garza go.
More bad trades?
How about two from the Vikings: trading for Walker and trading away Moss?
Or maybe the Wolves: Roy/Foye.
Don’t want something from Minnesota? How about Orton for Cutler?
Of course there’s also trading Nathan/Bonser/Liriano for Pierzynski.
But I’m sure those will all be quickly dismissed, since it’s all a matter of opinion.
Or you’ll come up with new ground rules. Like it has to be a bad trade performed on a Thursday when it’s less than 30 degress outside and the GM is wearing their red polo.
How about the Tigers trading 6 minor leaguers for “3B” Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis?
Well, Cabrera has been a stud and Willis a bust. I do not know how the 6 minor leaguers have done but it may be a bit soon to declare that one a top 5 worst trade. Do you know how they have done? Just curious.
Got another…Detroit trading for Washburn. He’s certainly helped his team.
it may be a bit soon to declare that one a top 5 worst trade.
Who said they were top 5 worse trades? I’m simply offering up trades that are worse than Garza/Young.
And that’s just within baseball. He was saying “In all pro sports”, and didn’t even bother to qualify it with a year so I’m assuming he means “of all time” which is even more amusing.
Didn’t the Twins also pillage the Yankees while only giving up Knoblauch?
Of course, there’s also going way back to the Sox trading away Ruth to the Yankees.
Braves trade away Neftali Feliz, Salty and Andrus. Well Andrus isnt the player Bartlett is, Neftali hasnt proven himself yet for a full season as Garza has, and Salty is close to gone in Texas. Plus Tex helped the Braves some at least. And lets not forget the Braves had Tommy Hanson to replace Feliz with, Escobar to block Andrus from playing time and McCann to block the overrated Salty. Who did the Twins have to replace Garza and Bartlett? And how much has Delmon helped us? Bottom line the Braves had the depth at positions to make that trade we didnt.
I suppose I should add:
The Braves send Neftali Feliz, Elvis Andrus, Jarrod Saltalamacchia, Matt Harrison, and Beau Jones to the Rangers.
The Mariners sent Adam Jones, George Sherrill, Chris Tillman, Kam Mickolio, and Tony Butler. Sherrill has since been flipped for Josh Bell from the Dodgers and another prospect.
The Braves trade is probably the worst trade of the decade, with Bedard’s being a close second. We’ll see how Tillman pans out, but it’s already looking pathetic.
There was no reason to trade either one, contracts werent expiring, no reason at all.
No reason? The Twins needed a young right handed hitter and had a surplus of minor league pitching.
At the time, Hunter was gone, and nobody was sure if Span was going to be able to step up and be an everyday starter (including many of the “genius” posters here)
They traded from a strength (young pitching) to fill a need (young right handed hitting).
Sometimes teams deal talented young players for other talented young players.
I know it’s fun to say “Bundle up 5 players I hate to get their really awesome stud hitter”, but unfortunately that’s not how it works in reality.
Also, I’ve since named many more trades that were far worse.
Yep, Too Nice … right behind Hiroshima and the Battle of Stalingrad.
Bottom line the Braves had the depth at positions to make that trade we didnt.
“Bottom line: I got owned and am not man enough to admit I was going overboard with the hyperbole.”
ok T, then my question is: why does it qualify as a bad trade at all? That is all I was asking. I am just curious as to your perspective but you bounced right over that answer.
Okay, Slowey not replaced with Harden. Perk and Liriano replaced by Pavano and Duensing.
Crede’s out…..and probably will be ineffective even if he comes back a little.
Morneau looks like he’s aching when he runs.
Writing is on the wall.
Ok, but did Tex at least help the Braves a little bit? He did I believe. No one they traded they couldnt replace. The Twins didnt have a Escobar to replace Bartlett, or a Hanson to replace Garza. The Orioles trade its hard to argue with…but, only one player Jones has proven himself, and Bedard was more useful to Seattle than Delmon has been to us. I said last 5 years. I think you all need to go back and read my first comments. The Walker trade I dont think falls under that category, neither does the Nathan trade.
If you’re so blind and delusional based on one career year from Jason Bartlett that you actually think the Braves’ Teixeira acquisition was a better move than the Young acquisition… I’m completely speechless.
Andrus just turned 21. He’s a rookie of the year candidate and will be one of the best shortstops in the league for years to come. Feliz is at this point arguably the top pitching prospect in the game. Saltalamacchia is hurt, but is still young and still has a tremendous ceiling. Harrison has battled injuries but is still just 24. Jones has struggled in AA but absolutely annihilated A+ pitching and is only 22.
Do you have any concept of the future? Most trades for young players are a long-term picture. For that matter, the Young trade could still work out.
I’m agreeing with you that it was a very bad trade, but any of the trades I just mentioned are infinitely worse.
How about the Cubs trading DeRosa for nothing? Or the Indians trading Chris Perez and Jess Todd to get him?
If you can’t look at the long-term and the big picture, then you’ve got no understanding of how baseball works, and shouldn’t be commenting on trades in the first place.
Look, I hated that trade when it was made, I hate it now. But Smith was trying to do the right thing: trading from what was believed to be depth (pitching, and make no mistake, when it was made, everyone thought the Twins had excess pitching) to fill a position of weakness. It isn’t the decision I would have made, but it wasn’t indefensible at the time.
None of the people in the Garza/Young, et.al. trade will be half as good as Roy is right now. None of them. It’s not even close. Foye got them nothing. If they keep Roy, Garnett is still here, and they have a shot at greatness.
And, the mariners trade for Washburn is much, much, much worse. No player in the Garza/Young trade is as good as Jones is already, and he’s in his early 20’s (and I’m a fan of both Garza and Bartlett).
None of this matters. What matters is that no team with a 3 game lead entering September has missed the playoffs in 13 years. The odds of the Twins winning the division are very low. Acquiring a guy that will make 5-6 starts just doesn’t make sense when you are 4.5 games back. Reusse has been a jerk lately, but he was right in his recent column.
Funny how people call trades for guys like Teixeira and Bedard bad trades, but yet they still complain about how the BS or TR never try to go all in to win a championship because they are worried about the future that never comes.
How did Teixeira help the Braves? He didn’t get them to the playoffs. They may have won a few games more, but he was brought in to get them to the playoffs and it didn’t happen.
All he did was cost them money and prospects. They could’ve still had Feliz. Saltalamacchia would be backing up McCann instead of Dave Ross. And they could’ve put Andrus at SS, or included him/Yunel in a trade to get someone who could actually make a difference.
Not to mention the potential for Harrison and Jones to contribute something.
There’s a reason that sports writers around the country ask the question if the Braves acquiring Tex was the worst trade of the past decade and the worst trade in the entire Braves history… it’s because the answer to both questions is probably “YES.”
“Detroit trading for Washburn. He’s certainly helped his team.”
Washburn sucks, but I wouldn’t call that one of the worst trades of the past few years. It’s not like they gave up a ton of young talent to get him.
It is interesting, though, how many people ripped Smith for not getting that dud. Sometimes the best moves are the ones you don’t make. If Smith had gotten Washburn we wouldn’t be having this discission because no way could they afford to add any players. They likely wouldn’t have gotten Pavano or Rauch either.
Which would you rather have? Delmon and Harris or Garza and Bartlett?
Bulk van der Huge -
I’ve said a billion, trillion times that I am not exagerating! At least!
Per Heyman, Penny signed with the Giants as a free agent.
Benny, I don’t think the debate is about whether the trade was bad, the question was: “is it one of the 5 worst trades in all of sports?”.
No, definitely not one of the 5 worst trades in all of sports.
But I think it’s fair to say it was a bad trade.
“But Buscher and Tolbert have both proven they cannot play at the big league level.”
Like Garrett Jones?
No one EVER proves THAT until they have retired WITHOUT proving they CAN play at the MLB level.
small sample of bad twins trades:
butch wyneger for pete filson
brunanski for tommy herr
scott erickson for scott kligenbeck
bert to calif for paul sorrento
sorrento to clev for nothing
tapani and guthrie to la for coomer.
doyle alexander to braves for smoltz
aj to giants
on and on hundreds of bad trades over the years.
Giants acquire AJ Pierz from the Twins for Nathan, Liriano and, was it Boof? (from Giant perspective)
Steve, I think we should agree to disagree. Yes the Cubs still wish they had Derosa, but he isnt the player Bartlett/Garza are combined, come on now. The Delmon trade cant work out..because while Delmon has potential, Harris will always suck. Plain and simple. And Jason Pridie…yeah, dont get me started. The Braves trade hasnt hurt them as much, look at where they are this season compared to us, they are a lot better team. The reds acquired Rolen, but gave up Encarcion, who sucks, so I dont see how that is a bad trade for the Reds. The Royals didnt give up much for Yuniesky, Tejada is having a good year for Houston and Luke Scott and Albers havent lit the world on fire in Baltimore exactly. Only the Jones trade has the potential to be worse because the Orioles couldnt replace Jones with another stud prospect like the Braves could with Feliz/Hanson. And Salty was blocked at Atlanta as was Andrus. The Braves thinking was that we have 3 very good young players, but 3 great ones to replace them with, add in Jair Jurjjens who they fleeced from Detroit and they thought, might as well go for it with Tex. Thats a lot better logic than, we’ll trade a potential great shortstop and replace him with Nick Punto and have no one to replace our very good young starter with.
I agree Sy. I hate when people are so easily written off. I stil think that Young will be a good hitter but have always hated to see Garza leave. I even liked Bartlett and felt he needed more time. But I at least appreciate the willingness by BS to make changes. His wisdom can be questioned but he is acting, albeit a bit late this year.
Sorry, repeat. Didn’t refresh.
“Per Heyman, Penny signed with the Giants as a free agent.”
What’s the source?
Heyman said the Giants are the favorites, but said nothing about him signing there.
Heyman says so on his last Tweet.
ggg if I were you Id kill myself
sorry … just caught that too
too nice after that statement i’m very glad not to be you!!!
mww: “…no team with a 3 game lead entering September has missed the playoffs in 13 years.”
Tough odds, to be sure.
But I’m taking some comfort in the confidence that, in those 13 years, there were very few (if any) division leaders on Sept 1 who were as flawed (read: bad) as this year’s Detroit Tigers.
Guess that means Penny is soon destined for the DL…Thank you Giants once again.
ggg do you remember any of the good things? I guess not - so gun meet temple
Thak god we did’nt land Penny and don’t know what the Cubs are doing, they must think the 2 1st round picks they get will be better then waht the twins we’re offering.
Kent says:August 31st, 2009 at 2:14 pm
“The Delmon trade cant work out..because while Delmon has potential, Harris will always suck. Plain and simple.”
One could also say somewhat similar for Garza. UNTIL he visits a proctologist to remove his head from his hindquarters, he will ALWAYS be what he is. GREAT STATS, weak performance. He will pitch a blinder about 1 in 8-10 starts (ala ALCS v. Boston), he will also pitch an absolute stinker about 1 in 8-10 starts (ala WS v. Phillies), otherwise quite pedestrian at best. IF he is/was so great, how come he just a .500 pitcher (18-18) on a substantially better team than the Twins? OR is it just bad luck?
Regards,
Kent, you can go ahead and agree to disagree with the entire world. That’s fine with me. The Braves are where they are because the Mets collapsed with injuries in one of the most fluke seasons I’ve ever seen, and the Braves overspent on Lowe this offseason, in addition to shipping off more players to bring in Vazquez. They decimated their farm system and will pay the price for it in years to come. The end result of all those efforts was nothing, as they still likely won’t make the playoffs.
However, if you want to remain focused on nothing more than present stats and not look at the long-term, you can look at the one bright spot for the Braves, and that’s trading Edgar Renteria to the Tigers for Jair Jurrjens.
There’s a trade worse than the Delmon one, and no one can refute that.
As for the Reds trade, they traded two very highly regarded minor league pitchers to get Rolen.
I don’t get how you can blatantly ignore player ages, contracts, and minor leaguers in deals and only look at short-term (and fluke) numbers like Jason Bartlett’s 2009 batting average.
I agree we lost it, but to say it’s one of the worst trades in all of pro sports over the past five years is completely and utterly ridiculous.
bw, the latter
Farve has cracked rib, he thinks.
Remeber folks, the trade was made because Garza was a head-case. He got sent down to work on throwing his off-speed pitches for strikes and he bad-mouthed the Twins field staff all the way to Rochester and then refused to follow directions! This was the best deal they could get. D-Young may not have listened early on, but he is listening now. In a year or two, the Twins will have a legit RF to replace the aging over-rated Cuddyer.
Too Nice says:
August 31st, 2009 at 2:27 pm
ggg do you remember any of the good things? I guess not - so gun meet temple
maybe if you had read what was being talked about it would make sense to you. they weren’t talking about good trades but worst trades ever!
the Dragon - repeat after me:
“win loss record is a stupid stat for individuals in team sports”.
When will people figure this out (like cy young voters, for example)?
“win loss record is a stupid stat for individuals in team sports”.
Remeber folks, the trade was made because Garza was a head-case.
I don’t believe that for a second, but if that is true, it’s reason number 1 Bill Smith should be fired immediately.
Draining talent away because ‘he’s a head case’ is one of the absolute stupidest things a GM can do, ever.
John, in the mean time, they will not have had a SS for two years (so far) or Garza during that time. Two years, so far, where the trade is UTTERLY one sided.
Kent … San Diego Chargers send Eli Manning to New York Giants … for what?
Final, Rays 11, Tiggers 7.
det going down to tampa 11-7 in the 9th and 2 out…..need a win tonite for sure….no more waiting- det is opening the door
Occasionally teams have no choice but to dispose of “head cases”. Case(s) in point … Terrell Owens by the 49ers, Eagles and Cowboys; Ryan Leaf by the Chargers; Milton Bradley (how often?) and, the entire Portland Jailbreakers. As the old saying goes … “Addition by Subtraction”.
Potential trade Toby Gardenhire for Rich Harden?
Garza was not that big of a headcase. I don’t blame them for trading him for a bat, but lets not pretend he was such a distraction that the Twins had to trade him.
Seriously - if the Twins were so concerned about “head cases” then why trade one for Delmon Young?
Thanks DrD, finally a meaningful and relevant post to break up the monotony. Thank you Rays. Now if the Twins can ever win with a chance to GAIN ground!
LNP, Prospect T Gardenhire and DY for Dan Haren
“Final, Rays 11, Tiggers 7.”
We can always hope. And no reason to blast Gardy and his boys because they’re now solid underdogs.
You can go after BS. But why should he blow up future pitching (Slama, Delaney) just for a long-shot chance at this year?
Slowey, Boof, Perk, Liriano, Neshek all coming back next year. Harden would have been nice, but unnecessary, for next season.
And I suppose BS had to choose one or the other — Penny or Harden — to go after.
I presume the Cubs made it too tough to get Harden.
“no team with a 3 game lead entering September has missed the playoffs in 13 years.”
Then that sample is an aberration!
Making up (or blowing) three games in a month is NOT THAT DIFFICULT!
1964 {Phillies-Cardinals)
Last year’s Twins sweep of the White Sox. (Before nose-diving at KC)
2006 Twins catch Tigers at the wire.
1951 “The Giants win the pennant!” “The Giants win the pennant!”
THREE FREAKING GAMES OUT is insurmountable?
@#$%-damn quitters!
on and on hundreds of bad trades over the years.
As ggg pointed out: The Minnesota Twins are the only team to ever make a bad trade. Ever. Don’t believe it? Just ask him.
Seriously - if the Twins were so concerned about “head cases” then why trade one for Delmon Young?
Exactly. The “head case” argument is only made by whiners because they try to come up for excuses as to how noting the FO does is to actually benefit the team.
The Twins wanted Young, and the Rays refused to do it straight up for Garza. So Harris/Bartlett with a smattering of Rincon (then Morlan) and Pridie to balance things out.
And I have yet to see anything about Young being a head case since he arrived. In fact, every interview and story I’ve read puts him in a pretty good light. Including comments he made when Gardy benched him following a few rough games in KC last season.
What did the Twins get for David Ortiz? That was pretty bad to get rid of him.
Didn’t the Mets had a 7 game lead in the AL East on September 14th, 2007 and missed the playoffs? http://www.zimbio.com/Manager+Willie+Randolph/articles/2/New+York+Mets+complete+historic+collapse
The Twins passed on Washburn and everyone complained that we didn’t pursue him! Then they picked up Pavano and everyone laughed as a ridiculous pickup.
It is time to check the stats:
Pavano, in the same amount of IP has over a run and a half better ERA. His WHIP is better and he has a K/BB ratio of 24/7 compared to Washburn’s 16/8.
We were ticked that Smith didn’t pursue Washburn and his overblown stats, but he was right!
98:
What makes you so sure that Valencia is ready? He can’t catch a cold at AAA yet you are going to put him in a game that still means something?
Just what are you smoking? We know Tolbert and Busher can play.
Can back to your hole……….
Once Again….POHLADS ARE VERY CHEAP!@!!
m says…Tolbert and Buscher can play…well maybe Tolbert, but Buscher, are you serious? You mean his .181 average at AAA compared to Valencias .296 average, or are you referring to his .220’s average and shaky defense with the Twins this year as evidence he can play? He may not be ready, but he is proving by playing better than Buscher at AAA that he is the one that deserves a shot over Buscher.
But Buscher is another one of Gardy’s man crushes, just like Nick Punto so Buscher will be called up.
Bartlett and Garza on the Twins…we would probably be leading the Central, or maybe a game out. Nice work Bill Smith!!!
People forget so easily what was happening in the past…David Ortiz couldn’t hit a breaking pitch to save his life when he was here…he had many chances to eb an everyday player here and couldn’t get it done…Bartlett same thing, struck out too much, never hit for power or average, and if I recall, his fielding wasn’t anything amazing really, and Garza was absolutely a headcase and sometimes you have jettison those types of guys for people who are going to listen. Whether you agree with the moves or not, you can’t expect a coaching staff to sit and deal with a brat kid who refuses to throw is breaking pitches and gets tatood half the time he pitches…they needed to ship him out, and guess what, in Tampa he started using breaking pitches more effectively (like he was told here) and wham, he is WAY more effective on the mound. Garza = dipstick, case closed. People always want to bring up the Santana trade as well, but again, the Twins held no cards in that case. He didn’t want to pitch here, he wanted the bright lights, he knew it, we knew it, and so did the teams who wanted him, which is why we were offered very little. We took what we thought was the best we could get at the time, get over it. It’s extremely easy to look back after years go by and say this trad is bad, and this guy sucks for making that trade, but nobody wants to look at the circumstances at the time the trade was actually made…
