The morning after: MLB turns out the Metrodome lights
Posted on October 12th, 2009 – 10:32 AMBy Joe Christensen
Several baseball writers ended up at Maxwell’s on Sunday night after bidding goodbye to Major League Baseball at the Metrodome. The Phillies and Rockies were tangled in a close late-inning ballgame on TV, and it was heartening to hear the temperature at Coors Field was 27 degrees. That could be Target Field some October.
As Brad Lidge survived his latest tightrope act, you could see the players’ breath, and some were wearing those ridiculous, yet practical, Elmer Fudd ear-flap caps. But it was baseball. Sweet postseason baseball.
I knew it wouldn’t hit me until the very end, but just before leaving the Metrodome, I looked at all the blue seats, looked at the baggie, with those big yellow ads, looked at the mangy green carpeting, and looked down at the pressbox seat where I’ve spent so much of the past five years. Wow, I thought, this is really it.
Earlier Sunday, the Twins had led several members of the national media on a tour of Target Field, and it was nice to hear their reviews coinciding with our reviews. “A lot of nice touches,” one well-traveled scribe said. It’s neat to think about all the firsts coming in the new ballpark, with those exhibitions against the Cardinals on April 2-3 and the regular season home opener April 12 against the Red Sox. (Corrected.)
But today, as snow falls outside my window, I’m still thinking about all the good times inside the Dome. The Twins sure made it fun. Others might be bitter about the latest 3-and-out postseason, but not me. They capped a 17-4 regular season finish by winning a game for the ages. After that tiebreaker triumph over Detroit, the Twins awoke last Wednesday as 10-to-1 underdogs to win the AL pennant, and 20-to-1 long shots to win the World Series, according to www.bodog.com. The Yankees were 4-to-5 and 9-to-5, respectively.
The Twins got beat by a well-oiled machine. Yes, they beat themselves with inexplicable baserunning gaffes, a lack of timely hitting and shaky relief. But with Kevin Slowey, Justin Morneau and Joe Crede injured, it would have taken a near-perfect effort for the Twins to survive the first round.
You want to talk about changes for 2010: Third base? Shortstop? Starting pitching? A lifetime extension for Joe Mauer? La Velle and I will spend the cold months covering those decisions inside and out. Matter of fact, we’re getting started today. (Look for more in tonight’s first editions.)
But before we move on, I want to pay last respects to the Metrodome. As depressing as it was to walk inside on countless gorgeous days to watch a game meant for the outdoors, the Dome had its moments. It was quirky and downright goofy at times, but for 28 years, it was still Major League Baseball. I’m grateful for having such a good seat.
320 Responses to "The morning after: MLB turns out the Metrodome lights"
It’s been a surprisingly great season, despite a mediocre first 5 months (which also had some great moments, including Kub’s and Cuddy’s cycle). Anyways, I would like to address all the people who all of a sudden want the Twins to trade Joe Nathan, because all of a sudden, he is apparently the worst closer in baseball. No question he was very shaky in the postseason, but setting a Twins franchise mark in saves this season, as well as creeping closer to all-time Twins saves leader status, it is still apparent that he is one of the best closers in the biz. As for the offseason, I think it’s pretty apparent what the team needs to do. Resigning O-Cab should be a top priority, and as long as his price stays down, resign Pavano. I also think that the Twins should still look for one veteran starter that could be an ace (i.e. Randy Wolf), and obviously keep hunting on for 3rd baseman (if it’s even possible, Chone Figgins). I also wouldn’t be surprised if the Twins dangle Liriano and Delmon this offseason. Oh and one last thing that might be a little important, I think it MIGHT be a good idea to sign that catcher of ours to an extension this offseason.
Maybe it’s me, but for this Twins fan who was at the first Twins game there in 1982 and who ranks that building (not a ballpark) 30th out of 30 MLB parks I’ve been to, they can just go ahead and raze it right now.
There were some very good memories there, but it’s time to get back to REAL baseball, outside, without the damn roof and football seats we’ve been forced to put up with for 28 long years…
Very well said Joe.
I have to agree, Joe. I was there last Tuesday for my final Dome game (and what a memorable final visit it was!) and as I left, I took a similar “last look around” at the baggy, the roof, et al.
I never liked the Dome. But you can’t say it didn’t host some amazing ballgames and generate memories that will never die.
Let’s hope Target Field holds even more memories for the future!
Here’s what I think they should do, in order of importance:
1. Sign Mauer. (Duh)
2. Sign Eric Bedard (You heard me)
3. Trade for J.J. Hardy (Perhaps the Brewers would be tempted by Liriano, who really needs a change of scenery; would a Liriano-for-Hardy trade be doable?)
4. Figure out 3B
5. Trade Delmon Young and go with a Span-Gomez-Cuddyer outfield
Joe, would you have paid to go to the dome on a regular basis?
It housed some great moments/memories, but for me, those memories are about the players and the games, not the place. They just happened to be in that horrible to watch baseball place.
I haven’t been to the dome much lately, 1000 miles away and all. My fav. are going to the celebration the day after the Twins won the 1991 WS. For some reason i was the only one that would skip class at the U. I was also there when Winfield came back to hit his 400th HR for Cleveland i believe.
JDM:
You are very close. I also think O Cab. fits well as does Pavano but you are very close.
I know its bad but I’m already looking forward the offseason. Are the winter meetings that far away?
My short to do list:
1. Resign Mauer. Give him whatever he wants.
2. Resign O-Cab at a reasonable 1 year deal. His influence on Casilla and Gomex for an entire year could be helpful. If his price tag is too high, inquire about JJ Hardy.
3. Pavano likely pitched himself out of the Twin’s budget with yesterday’s gem and doesn’t hold runners well, but offer him a contract and hope.
4. Find a 3rd baseman. Preferably one that will play all year and won’t hit .230.
5. Decide on a 3rd outfielder. Either its Delmon or Gomez. Pick one.
6. Trade Glen Perkins to the women’s roller derby league for 3 free rollerskating lessons.
Also - for all you Dome haters. I would MUCH rather watch a game in the Dome than sit outside and freeze my ass off. Get real.
I’d be OK with O-Cab. Hardy could play third and the Twins wouldn’t need Young’s bat. Maddening as he can be, Gomez is an awesome outfielder and Span is not that great in center.
But a top-of-the-line starter is an absolute necessity. Bedard would not come that cheap, but they wouldn’t have to give up a first-round draft pick to get him. And he’s got top-of-the-line stuff. If the Twins want to sign Pavano, fine. But not at the expense of a No. 1 starter, and Bedard would be it. Signing both of those guys, and trading for Hardy, would probably be enough to convince Mauer to sign, too.
And that would be a nice rotation, too: Bedard, Baker, Slowey, Blackburn and Pavano. Not bad at all.
I like the proposed rotation, but we need another lefty…Doug Davis perhaps?
To do list for the Winter that won’t cost us a penny…
1. Nick Punto meet Rondney Cline Carew. “Hi Nick, today we are going to learn how to bunt.”
2. Nick Punto you remember Mr. Carew from yesterday right? “Hi Nick today we are going to work on running the bases. The first lesson, how to run through first base.”
3. Alternate 1 and 2 for the remainder of the time between now and mid-February.
The irony of the last two games in the Metrodome being played first on a rainy afternoon and then a cold evening is not lost on me. Methinks in my lifetime I will see the pro sports beggars coming at the public yet again for a “modern indoor sports arena” much like they did in the 1980s. You see, history has a tendency to repeat itself. Don’t say you weren’t warned!
Pending resigning Pavano or another “servicable” start, I think you can bank on the rotation looking like this: Baker, Slowey, Blackburn, Duensing, (Veteran).
Liriano, Manship, Perkins will likely be given a shot to make the club out of spring training.
Loved the dome. Get ready to sweep snow off your seat.
We need to ask this question: Can GoGo learn to hit? If so, he goes to the minors and comes up when he can contribute offensively at the major league level. If not? So be it, he remains on the major league roster and contributes for a long time as a decent role player.
If he can learn to hit (even a bit) he can really be something. What seems clear is that he won’t learn it at the major league level.
Ummm, we’ve seen the last of Mr. Perkins in a Twins uniform, if you know what I mean. Dave St. Pete told Reusse this in so many words recently.
Do you REALLY think he’d be brought back after the crap he’s pulled???
I never minded going to the Metrodome for night games. Didn’t seem to matter if you were indoors.
My wishes: that Pavano will be resigned and that Gomez will go away for at least a year.
Joe,
Excellent points and well appreciated. Let me thank you guys personally for all the hardwork you do for the fans. It was a great season.
Say what you want about the roof, but it’s very comforting to know that when you spent $135 on tickets and have to drive 2 1/2 hours that you are going to see a ballgame. By the way this is Minnesota and the only predictiable thing about the weather is you never know.
One last thought, I hope this late season run doesn’t get Bill Smith to high on himself. There is alot of work to be done, holes to addressed. Now isn’t the time to stand pat.
I love Gogo…perhpas his biggest fan. However, I want him in AAA for at least half of next year. Give the kid a chance to grow. He is still REALLY young.
Im going to a Wilco show tonight and I’m wearing my Twins hat. With pride.
Joe: I did the same thing at the Dome after that thrilling game last Tuesday. I even touched the Bob Casey Hall of Fame banner of the way out because he made going to games at the Dome so fun. (the new pa announcer is awful by the way) I contemplated all day Saturday whether I was going to take the 670 mile round trip drive for Game 3, but I didn’t want to see the Yankees celebrating on the field in person. On a different topic MLB has become such a joke. It is ridiculous to have one network carry all the first round games. The Phillies game ended last night at 2:20 am ET. How is that good for the fans? How can Bud Selig think that helps ratings? That should have been an afternoon game on ESPN in Denver when the temperature was warmer and that fans young and old could enjoy it whether they were at the park or watching on TV. Also, the playoff umpire assignments should be rewarded by performance, not this stupid rotation. In every other sport, officials earn their playoff assignments. As for the players, why the hell do teams celebrate with champagne when they win the Division Series? Exactly what championship have they won? You don’t see NFL, NHL and NBA team popping the corks when they win a first round series. Finally, baseball better find a salary cap soon because a lot of die hard fans like myself are getting sick and tired of this system.
Thanks for the thoughts, Joe. The Metrodome is lousy, yes, but it was home. Think of all the wonderful characters who made it that way.
Watching Nicky’s base running and the bullpen, maybe the spirits of Mickey Hatcher and Ron Davis made it back for the last game.
Still, amazing things happened in the Dome, and if nothing else, it’s like no other ballpark ever was or ever will be.
I wonder if wild card teams like Boston celebrated with champagne?
Yeah! We’re No. 2!
“it would have taken a near-perfect effort for the Twins to survive the first round.”
You know the thing that was so frustrating/exciting about this post-season is that they came so close to getting that “near-perfect effort”. In every game, they had a chance late. That’s what makes the uncharacteristic base-running erros and the bad calls so frustrating.
Clearly the Yankees were the better team over a season, but it always seemed like the Twins might get hot enough to beat them, or at least make a 5 game series of it.
The Yankees never humiliated the Twins in this series. The Twins humiliated themselves.
Maybe “humiliated” is going a bit over the top. But, I’d say the Twins beat themselves more than the Yankees did.
Hitterscount, you and all your friends who live two and a half hours away had many opportunities to help pay for a roofed stadium. As a Hennepin County resident who is shouldering the entire tax burden, I invite you to spend your $135 on a basic cable package.
Neumms: We “outsiders” helped pay for the Metrodome with the hotel tax we were charged back in the late 70’s and 80’s. It all evens out in the end pal.
Walter:
The Twins did themselves no favors but I don’t think humilated is the right word. They played like a “better than average team.”
I see some of the To Do lists, including re signing Mauer and shoring up 3B, etc. In my mind, these things are necessarily linked/its not two separate items. I can not imagine being able to re sign Mauer UNLESS they also make big moves to patch up their holes, like a bona fide power hitting RH 3B man, a solid relieve, and maybe even one more solid starter. Not an all star at every position like the yanks, but willingness to spend money to fill holes. If Mauer does not see tat willingness, I would think he also would not want to stay.
Twins lineup that I would like to see for next year
Span CF
Uggla 2B
Mauer C
Morneau 1B
Cuddyer 3B
Kubel RF/DH
Young LF
Abreu DH/RF
Punto SS
Pavano, Baker, Slowey, Blackburn Duensing
Joe,
I agree on Slowey, but I don’t think the injuries to Morneau and Crede really hurt the team at all. Twins were something like 22-6 without Morneau in the lineup (including earlier in the year). Not saying we don’t need Morneau, just that in this isolated case, losing Morneau did not hurt the Twins.
Carl Pavano was near perfect, and he still lost. The Yankees play with cold, calculating precision, and lest we forget, performance-enhancing chemicals. Heart got us as far as it could, and that was farther than I’d have thought. With Morneau, Slowey and Perkins out, the Twins were absolutely amazing Tuesday and gosh-darned admirable against the Yanks.
AaronK Have you been watching all year?
Send Gogo to the clue factory. He’s done.
JC,
At first, I thought you wrote “glue factory”.
CharlieMurphy:
That is a great 2nd place lineup. Not even as good as this year. No new #1 pitcher, no improvement in standings.
Did you notice the weather? I think next year you will appreciate the dome all the more. Plus, it was paid for. Enjoy paying $2,500 to the pohlads for the new stadium? That’s what NPR says it will cost every resident of Hennepin County. Nice of the pohlads to say thank you by doubling ticket prices
coyotetom
I tried to put out a “realistic” lineup not the pie in the sky lineups that some will throw out. We will not see “Doc” or “King Felix”. We do not have the pieces to make those trades. Uggla at 2nd would be a huge right handed bat in the lineup and Abreau still puts up huge RBI numbers every year. I would like to Think that they are upgrades over Tolbert or Morales. If Slowey can come back strong that is a huge help in the rotation. I think Liriano and Perkins are both gone
-sign Figgins
-sign Cabrera
-sign Pavano
-resign Mauer
That is all we need to do.
Bufftwins–that was a hotel and liquor tax, so people in Minneapolis got just as soaked (as it were) if not more so. Also, that was $55 million spread over far more people than the $400 million hitting one county every time we buy nearly ANYTHING.
To be fair, the Vikings inevitable stadium should be financed by a sales tax on every county BUT Hennepin. It could be built outside Minneapolis, though, since football doesn’t need to draw from a downtown and benefits the entire TV-watching state more than anyone.
“As for the players, why the hell do teams celebrate with champagne when they win the Division Series?”
I agree with that complaint. Just get ready for the LCS after the DS is done. It’s not a celebratory moment like a division or pennant.
Thanks Twins for the last minute run. Unlike most posters, I vote for keeping and developing the current roster, instead of trying to build new human chemistries. Let’s try that model for a couple of years and maybe we will win the big prize again. Just a thought.
CharlieMurphy:
I think the current Twins offense is OK. The difference maker for next year will be starting pitching. It is just OK now. The defense is OK as evidenced by record breaking fielding for fewest errors. Offense scores enough runs to win more games. Piching gives up too many runs. No defense for home runs.
I enjoy your column, Joe. And I think you need to look up the word “heartening.”
bufftwins:
I couldn’t agree more with your 11:46 message. How would you like to be a Phillies fan? They won the World Series last year and for that they get two weekday afternoon games and another starting after 10pm on a Sunday night??? Until they get Butthead Selig (or any other owner lackey) out of the commissioners office, this crap will continue. Sense has nothing to do with it. What’s wrong with staggering game times that overlap a little? That way you can flip back and forth, yet watch the end of both seperately, in most cases. But again, that would make sense and be reasonable. Instead, we have WS games pushing nearly to Halloween every year (this year is an exception, we’re going to push it out to November 5th, due to the WBC). And we’re going to be playing in rain/snow/cold guaranteed.
As I said about a year ago, sometime in the next few years, we’re going to have a World Series game moved, due to snow. The day is getting awfully close. Baseball will have to be embarrassed ala the AS game “tie” to do something about this.
I am a huge Gomez fan also. And so, I will do the best to defend him. He is being put into a very difficult situation to improve (this is completely the coaching staff’s fault). He sits for games on end (except as a late defensive replacement) and then when he is asked to bat, he has a hard time putting together productive at bats. This is 1) because he is young and learning, 2) because he is excitable, and 3) because he IS NOT put into the position of taking regular at bats against major league pitching and when he does have a bad at bat, Gardy publicly criticizes him and relegates him to the bench. When Punto has a string of bad at bats, he’s “working his tail off” when Gomez has a (yes, 1) bad at bat, he is a “loose cannon.” Gardy rolls his eyes in the dugout when Gomez grounds out on a first pitch strike, but when Kubel goes 1-14 with 9 K’s, its just fine… No rolling of the eyes there. Gardy needs to learn how to connect with younger players that don’t fit his mold, or they should hire a bench coach who does.
The Twins offense stranded 17 on Friday and scored 1 run yesterday. A little upgrade would not be the worst thing in the world epecially if it shows Mauer that the team is serious about competing.
This is a typical JC glass is half full article. What I’m hoping is that the media will start a push for a salary cap in baseball. All the best free agent talent has been going to the same handful of teams for the last 10+ years and it’s old. The yankees winning is the worst thing. The yanks REDSOX and other big markets ruin the competitve nature of the game. Furthermore, it is a microcosm of what’s wrong with America as a whole. 3% get everything and the rest of us get to pay for it. I hope the Yankees all get H1N1 and suffer till their last breathes and pass the sickness to a bunch more elitist SWINE.
The idea that the Twins “play the game the right way” is long past and I am really tired of the announcers using that phrase. The obvious lack of fundamentals and discipline has been gone for a couple of years. I’m not just talking about the baserunning errors in the playoffs (although that surely magnified everything), we have been missing the cutoff man, not throwing to the correct base, not getting the bunt down, and it goes on and on. We need to get back to the basics. If Gardy can’t teach them, get somebody that can.
Abreu is sky pie
1. sign Mauer
2. trade for hardy (start with Perkins, add Plouffe or Young or young pitchers)
3. find a 3b (San Diego has Kouzamnoff and Headley, Encarncion doesn’t seem to ahve a role in TOR, Gamel in MIL, Beltre in SEA: pick one you like and pursue)
4. one more starter, #1 or 200 innings. (If you like the ones you have then just get a Doug Davis or Carl Pavano. I think a #1 would be cool, but they’re expensive. It depends on how higher priorities were addressed.)
They’re going to have too many relievers next year too: Nathan, Rausch and the kids with jobs today (Keppel and Mijares) will be back, Crain and Guerrier will almost certainly be re-signed, then Bonser and Neshek return from injury, then Liriano and Perkins and possibly others come down from lost rotation slots. It’s a lot of guys to sort through, so I could see at least one dealt with Delmon or Perkins to get something useful.
who won two weeks a go vikes or 49ers??
danviking | less than a minute ago
Abreu had a salary of $5M for 2009. Not that much more than what Punto will make nextyear
Charlie - I agree.
If getting the “best” players makes you better, why don’t the Yanks win the WS every year? Those teams getting the best (highes paid) players means those owners are willing to pay to get a good product. The Twins have one of the richest owners in baseball but they are not willing to go get the players needed to win. If you win, they will come (even after the shine of the new stadium goes away.)
Off season preview is that there aren’t a lot of great free agents this year and that the Twins don’t have much talent to give up to trade for a good player or two.
Prediction: The Twins will largely stay out of the FA market in an effort to spend their money on Mauer. The only signings will be Pavano or Cabrera - but probably not both.
Hope: If the Twins don’t have much expendable talent to give up…then we might have to focus on trading for someone that is still relatively young, not too expensive, had a bad year but has shown talent before and could bounce back well. Answer: JJ Hardy.
Question: 1) Would the Brewers trade Hardy? 2) What would the Twins give up and most importantly, who would the Brewers accept.
My guess to #1 is “Yes.” and #2 - they will want pitching - either or both Perkins/Liriano plus a prospect.
Thoughts?
The Metrodome is a great facility! It
includes adequate dimensions, a super seating capacity, better sightlines than other multisport ballparks had,
a good color scheme, and fewer obstructed views than ballparks from
before the 1960s had. Its ability to host several sports is beneficial, too.
Plus, it is not the Dome’s fault that it has not wide enough walkways, not enough restrooms, and some obstructed views in the upper deck. Anyone’s bashing of this structure stinks!!
I am not saying that the Twins need to try to get all the best players for next year. I am saying that they need to add a few players and have some of their own players develop. What does it say when the Angels have said that they do not know if they can afford to try to sign Lackey. The Yankees have a revenue stream that other teams do not have because of the YES Network. The Twins will never compete with that.
Top 4 Twins that should be available on the trading block this off-season:
-Perkins (gone for sure)
-Delmon
-Liriano
-Gomez
if the Twins make it to post season next year, and its snowing outside like today, will they try to move the games to the dome?
Friend, we are going to be sorry we didn’t build a stadium with a retractable roof. but everybody got so excited, and we wanted it right away, that we settled for a less than (no retractable roof) stadium shoehorned into downtown. The same trendy, but hasty decision like the one made when we were aching to get out of the old Met.
Don’t get me wrong, i’ll take Target field over the MOA Metrodome anyday. i’m just saying, for the next 28-40 years, you will hear complaints and we’ll get bad national press for not having a retractable roof. Maybe we’ll get right next time.
By the way, the dome was leaking during game 163. a poetic end?
E7, Trade both pitchers and either Delmon or Gomez for Hardy. No net loss on our side and potential upside with JJ if he bonces back to anything like he was before.
The Yankees got the best 2 free agents last year and this year will be the same. As it will be when Mauer is a FA. Baseball is broken. The Yankees should never be this good without developing any of their own talent!
E7 I don’t think any of them have much trade value. Maybe someone will want Perkins but the others????
I am a lifetime twins fan living a long ways away. I never thought the Twins would do as well as they did this year. Too many young pitchers and players with too little experience. Now they have one more year under their belts, it is time for the front office to step up. We need a number one starter to go with Pavano, Baker, Blackburn, and Slowey. LETS GET HALLIDAY!!. Then Mauer will sign an extension since we are committed to winning, we move Cuddyer to third, sign Cabrera, put Kubel in right, Span in center and Young in left. I have disagreed with all spend-money-now posts up to this point. Our young players needed another year, but now they have had it. Lets get a real number one at the top and have a shot to win it all. Time to step up front office!!!
I will, so when you draw 10,000 to 15,000 in April and September thats not on the fans that don’t live in the cities. Just look at the Brewers, they were out of the race by August and were still drawing 35k plus evry night. Less revenue at the gates means less money to spend on players.
Remember the 4 stiffs we received for Santana…remember the 3 stiffs we got from Tampa? C’mon, there has to be some other stupid teams out there that would accept the above package of 4 players for something… like Hardy??
The Brewers do need pitching and apparently have expressed interest in Perkins before, but that was before the recent injury.
The Twins could try to unload Perkins and Liriano on Milwaukee but I’m guessing they will still want a top pitching prospect like - Duensing or Swarzak… or fill in the blank…
…the TWINS not getting by the damn yankees was not a surprise.
disappointed with delmon swinging on 1st pitches…if OC stays and the twins can get a 3bSER….NEXT YEAR COULD BE PLAYOFFS AGIN…LOYAL TO THE END
If executives of teams like the Twins would stop bemoaning their small markets and band together, perhaps baseball could have rules in place to promote top-to-bottom competition, as the NFL and NBA do. The perfect compromise would be taking half of what every team makes and dividing it equally as “the visiting team’s share.” The Yankees would still have an advantage because the leagues and television partners like it, but not the crazy one they have now. Baseball should be an escape from thinking about finances. Ballparks will only be expensive food courts if the economics can’t be controlled.
Detroit, Chicago, Cleveland, Boston… all get by without a roof over their heads. We have before and we will again.
I didn’t mind going to the Dome for weeknight games, but weekend day games in our season tix package were almost always sold or exchanged. Not so next year.
Hitterscount–the Twins don’t draw in April and May even with the dome. They draw in September only when they’re good. If they’re playing in October, hell, who cares how cold it is? Stay home and watch on cable if you want. Don’t you own a coat?
I am a transplant from Chicago (and a cursed Cubs fan) but I do like the Twins. The dome is not a good stadium, but those teams playing in the dome made it home. The hustle and heart of this year’s team was outstanding and overcoming the loss of many during the season to injury only further endears this team to me. I look forward to green grass and outdoor ball but, more than that, I look forward to watching and rooting for the Twins.
Right on, Kay. I’ve always avoided the weekend games, too.
It sure is nice and cozy inside Miller park in milw, comes sept and oct eat your hearts outs
stick333,
For 20 years, the Twins did just fine at Met Stadium. I never remember being too cold at the Met, even during Vikings games in the snow. You just have to dress for the weather. Look at all those people that packed TCF Stadium on Saturday, they looked like they were having a blast, even though it was cold and had snowed the night before. The Phillies and Rockies survived last night.
I will miss the Dome, miss guaranteed baseball, miss seeing parents bringing their kids in to the very affordable seats on a hot summer afternoon, miss sitting with some extraordinary and wonderful people up in General Admission. None of these things will be available at Target Field, none of these is currently in the plans for years out, which is sad. I will especially miss the handicapped accessible seating at the Dome, with the wheelchairs sitting in the front, rather than in the back of the section, looking more like they are in an aisle rather than an actual row of seating.
Many of the decisions made for Target Field were - and are - wrongheaded, but so what if attendance for outstate fans drops 75%? So what if local fans can’t afford to come to all games of a series? So what if younger fans leave baseball altogether for the more (financially) accessible sports? Who needs fans in the seats every day, every game, as my friends and I have been for many many years?
Apparently the twins don’t.
ES16, I remember the Met too and all too often the weather stunk. I lived in Rochester then and it was a pain to buy tickets, make the drive and then be miserable. Now in the day of HD - if it sucks outside, I’ll be at home watching in comfort, not caught in traffic, etc.
Its a different world now and building a stadium in the statistically coldest city in MLB without at leasat the capability of adding a roof later - is the single biggest sports facilities mistake ever made in this state (yes, even worse than building the dome in the first place!).
A few comments:
Kay, we should have a lot more Saturday afternoon games now. How nice will that be?
The Twins fans that are oh so concerned about not having a roof - how are we any different than every other city that doesn’t? I don’t hear all of them clammoring for a retractable? It’s like Neumms said, you put on a damn coat if it’s cold out.
Hell, we could be in Milwaukee where they thought they had an outdoor stadium… last year we were over there for the Twins series in mid-June. It was home game 30. The roof had been CLOSED for 24 of those games. Yep.
Stop whining, it’ll be perfectly fine for 90% of the games. I’d say those that complain have become major sofites, but I’m not sure that many of you have been to outdoor games on a regular basis - and I don’t mean one or two road series a year. I mean all season long.
I went to games at the old Met. Lived in Boston for three years and went to Fenway, lived in Chicago for six years and went to old County and both Wrigley and whatever-it’s called these days. There is no comparison, as you will find out.
“Send Gogo to the clue factory. He’s done.”
Pretty much sums up the year on the JC thing, doesn’t it.
Have fun at the clue factory, JC.
BTW, the last I heard, the Twins are in the 16-17K season ticket range. So in April/September, we’ll be looking at minimum 25K attendance on an every day basis for the forseeable future.
Hell, we could be in Milwaukee where they thought they had an outdoor stadium… last year we were over there for the Twins series in mid-June. It was home game 30. The roof had been CLOSED for 24 of those games. Yep.
i’ve been to a dozen or so games in milwaukee and not ONE has the roof been open. moreover, not ONE of those games was it raining. merely a potential of some precipitation, if anything. give me 30 degrees and an open sky any day of the week.
This year was a struggle for the Twins, no doubt… but while their postseason run won’t rank with the 1877 or 1991 or 1965 teams, just to get to the playoffs was a major achievement. They deserve a long and loud standing ovation for the way they stayed alive in September.
Regarding the Dome, I was able to be in the Dome for a game in April 82 - the lack of air motion was nearly suffocating - and in September of 1987… when the ambient noise even before the game was LOUD (just people talking, amped up over the playoffs.) Those two were the only times I was in Minnesota at the right times and then after ‘88 my lower back became a major threat in everything I did.
Look, an outdoor stadium in this climate is not conducive to comfortable watching or comfortable playing in the cooler months, nor obviously, does it protect against rain. The Dome was built as a compromise - just as Target has been - the indoor field was a good idea but the playing field itself was too weird. The only stadium that makes sense is an open/close stadium, but those are expensive of course.
I will never understand why people who are forced to live indoors for 6 months of the year due to the cold weather wouldn’t want to be outside in the summer as much as possible.
How was that dome ever built with so much opposition to it? I personally enjoy staying warm and dry. Someone can have my seat at the new ballpark.
pretty classy to argue who is making more money.
oops.. wrote in the wrong blog. pulled a punto.
I loved the Dome. It was magical . . . yes, it will be nice to play outside next year, except when it’s 20 degrees and the windchill makes it -20, or, when it’s 95 degrees with a dewpoint of 80. We will see how many fans show up during those extreme weather days.
I think the 2009 Twins did a remarkable job, and Gardy . . . you are the best. All the doubters can try walking a mile in your shoes. We don’t coach, we are the fans, leave the coaching to the professionals!! Rock on Boys. You did great.
Nice article, Joe I skimmed the comments and did not see one lament about the eventual Domes demise and the end of Mike Lynn’s $500k yearly stipend. I can’t tell you how depressing that makes me feel.
Regarding the doom and gloom of outdoor postseason baseball in MN.
According to weather.com, the Twin Cities’ average high temperature on October 12 is 62 degrees with an average low of 42 degrees. Obviously we’re going to get some days like today once in awhile, but we’ll also get some pretty nice days. Even if you look at the end of the month (World Series time), October 31 has an average high of 51 and average low of 34. We might have some cold days, but we’ll have some nice ones too. Suck it up, lots of teams play in the cold.
Good post B-Good.
i say good riddance to the Dome and indoor baseball. was a bad idea to begin with, is still a bad idea.
Next spring we can get back to baseball the way it’s supposed to be played, and hopefully with some better pitchers who are pitching the way they are supposed to be pitching.
I compare the Dome to me. It was great in its day, as was I. It’s time has passed, as has mine. I want to take this moment to thank LEN 3, Joe C., and Howard S. for the great season of fun, albeit sometimes irritating, blogs. Thanks again, you three.
I was at the last scheduled regular-season game last Sunday against the Royals.
I thought I might get a little misty-eyed about the old place, but then I noticed people blocking my vision, my neck hurting from craning to look at home plate, and a line to use a trough-style urinal.
As long as people are making their case to bring in players. We got the Pohlads their new toy, they can should show their appreciation by giving back to the fans….
3B Adrian Beltre - Gold Glove Caliber 3B who had injury issues in 2009.
2B Brian Roberts
SP Eric Bedard,or John Lackey (Lackey won’t happen but we can dream).
RP - Rafael Soriano - A nice back up to Nathan if he should go down with an injury.
Sign Figgans to be Valencia’s insurance policy, and to play 2nd base for the Twins if Valencia has a good season at 3rd base
Mauer is going to probably need a 7 to 10 year deal, and it’s going to have to start at 21 million a year, are they willing to do that?
I want to see them go after Roy Oswalt or Brandon Webb, but that’s not going to happen.
I predicted that the Twins would win 87 games before the season started. I was close but honestly never expected to be close as September started. I thought they were done. I give the team credit for their September run. I just hope that BS doesn’t use it as an excuse to say that we are just a tweak away from a world series. We are a ffew tweaks for sure. However, this is a fun team to watch and I am sorry to see it all over.
Joe, thanks for your fine efforts. I’ve had the pleasure, in my retirement years, of seeing several ball games around our great country. All the good ones are true baseball stadiums…outdoors, fan friendly, with beautiful designs. By what I’ve seen, Target Field will fit in very nicely with outdoor, Major League Baseball. I realize it was not possible to put a roof on it, but that could be a disaster in the making. How often have I read where the outstate Twins fans could plan ahead to see a game knowing it would be played. The long term success of the Twins relies heavily on these supporters. I’m already making plans to come up from Arizona to see the Twins in 2010. Go Twins !
You sure won’t see my ass out in the cold to watch baseball. sure hope the same for the gophers as there will be alot of days like to day. I still loved the dome sure hope the vikes don’t go outside as I won’t be there.
Jim, I would love to see some link to the $2,500 you claim NPR said we would all be paying for Target Field. Considering the sales tax is 0.15 percent that means we are all going to be spending about $1.7 mil each on taxable goods over the course of the bonds being paid off for the stadium? We all must be doing pretty good for ourselves then.
MLB needs to implement a salary cap and fast. Yankees: $201 million; Marlins: $36 million; are you kidding me? A-Roid, Tiexiera, and Rivera combined equals the Twins entire payroll! The only reason I attend a few games each year is to take my 8-year old son because he has already developed a love for the game and I don’t want to stifle that. Otherwise…it’s disappointing year in and year out that the majority of the teams that make the play-offs are the teams over $100 million in payroll. Shame on Major League Baseball.
I’ve been wondering for awhile now…if I want to copy someone’s prior post and put it in italics to respond, how do I go about that?
twins need to make a big run at jj hardy in the offseason and inquire about kevin kouz. solidify that infield for a couple years so they can concentrate on working on the rotation and bullpen. bring back mahay, keep rauch. dump crain as quick as possible. good velocity for crain, but lacking the toughness and wits for a late relief pitcher anymore. hopefully mijares comes back strong.
id say offseason tasks.
1. Trade for jj hardy. o-cab was great here, but how much does he really have left, hardy is a very good defensive ss with pop, and before last year, .275-.285 avg.
2. Try and sign Rich Harden to a contract. they wanted him during the trade deadline, now go and get him without having to give anything up.
3. Put together a package for Kouz. Kouz showed great, not good, but great hot corner defense this year. healthier, younger and a bit more pop and better average then crede.
4. Scour FA market for a solid Rh Rp. Guerrier pitched too much this season and he fell apart, with mahay, mirajes will not have as heavy of a workload, and wont breakdown like at the end of this season.
Any body else have ideas?
And Bedard would actually cost more then Harden i think at this point. Bedard is healthier, yet Harden is ELECTRIC when healthy… and was healthy last year.
I can’t really say goodbye to the Dome. Sure, the Twins won’t play there anymore, but I’ll be there on Sunday along with 64,000 other screaming people.
Skol, Vikings!
maybe the twins should take a page from hockey and play at a football stadium. just for nostalgia, but have the twins play one or 2 games a year at the humpty dump until vikes move out and it gets torn down.
I know it would never happen, but im willing to bet for those games the dome would be PACKED each year
If they play October play-off baseball next year…there just may be a game in the Metrodome when the 5-day weather forecast is for snow and with highs near 25 degrees!
yeah the only way i see it happening is if they sign a deal with the dome as a backup for long snow out periods.
A couple options for the Twins to get a #1 or #2 pitcher. The Twins will not be able to sign a healthy ace and I do not want the Twins to sign Harden for $9-$10 million and have him throw 100 innings. Remember, you need to give up something to get something. Here are two options that would make the Twins better by allowing them to play their outfielders every day:
Cuddyer to Atlanta for Javier Vasquez or Yunel Escobar - Cuddyer’s trade value will never be higher as it is right now
or
Kubel to Chicago for Carlos Zambrano - The Cubs have been looking for a power hitting left handed corner outfielder for a while and Bradley will not be back. They also have been quoted as wanted to get rid of Zambrano’s contract. It will depend on if the Twins would be able to extend Mauer’s contract and take on Zambrano’s but the Twins rotation would look like this:
Zambrano, Baker, Slowey, Blackburn, Duensing.
It would also allow the Twins to offer Perkins and/or Liriano for Hardy or Hardy plus a minor leaguer.
Any thought of upgrades we can do to the dome now that the baseball boys have left? I’ll miss the 2nd base patch around the 25 yard line.
Add seats to TCF stadium, have Vikes play there and extensively retrofit the dome?…check that there are no beer lines…or build a new Vikes stadium by the river…
Do we really want another .250 hitter with a .300 OBP like Kouzmanoff? I like the idea of going after Hardy, but would really like to see Figgins. I’d like to add them both, but really, can we expect the Twins to add more than 1 or 2 GOOD players in any given offseason? (I’d like a starting pitcher plus Figgins in my dream world)
Span RF
Figgins 3B/2B
Mauer C
Morneau 1B
Cuddy 2B/3B
Kubel DH
Delmon LF
Gomez CF
Punto SS
Said SP
Baker
Slowey
Blacky
Duensing or Pavano
Can we just stop with this whole Metrodome as a backup crap? It’s not going to happen. Can you imagine the logistical issues of suddenly just moving a ballgame? We built and outdoor stadium for a reason, now enjoy it.
Cuddyer possibly but unlikely, but I wouldnt give up Kubel, not for the low value Zambrano who was getting shelled by the NL! Kuebel hit 27hr drove in over 100 rbis and hit around .300… too valuable to give up for only Zambrano.
Part of me says take the risk on Harden, pitching outside takes away some of the turf risk he would have had here. Why trade cuppyer for escobar when you could possibly only give up lirano for hardy?
This offense was very potent this year. add hardy and maybe a kouz or a mark derosa.. actually quite a few options on the Fa market for 3 base next year, if you consider beltre in there as well. Kouz would have to be traded for.. but being that that pads are rebuilding, pretty sure for a solid and a lower prospect you could snag him.
A healthy morneau, cuddyer producing finally and keubel showing what he can do when healthy, add that to mauer, and maybe a hardy and kouz. sounds like a damn good lineup.
just throwing this idea out there, o-can wants to come back so bad, yet his ss defensive was declining rapid, resign him for 4 mil or so, and stick him at 2nd. Make punto the utility player he should be.
try and resign pavano, add him to baker slowey and blackburn ( blackie looked like a shutdown pitcher last month of the season!) a harden added to that would be a hellva rotation.. look for a rh rp to take some weight off rauch and guerrier, and resign mahay to keep the weight offa mijares… and being that they are moving into the new stadium and have some money coming in, doesnt actually add as much as it sounds.
Oh and gomez would be a nice start to a package for kouz. they would love his speed in that cave at petco.
Liriano and maybe a prospect for hardy.
gomez and solid prospect for Kouz.
not really giving up anything of makor value but bringing in two very solid role players, and keeping the clutch and power of kubel and cuddyer at the same time. All we would need is Delmon to continue his surge.
Here’s my list of players the Twins should target this season via trade or free agency. I realize that not all of these are realistic chances, but they are all at least possible.
1. Chone Figgins
2. Erik Bedard
3. Rich Harden
4. Placido Polanco
5. Brian Roberts
Obviously, there’s no way the Twins could ever get all 5, or even 3 or 4 of these guys. But if they get one or two, as well as re-sign Carl Pavano (and lock up Mauer of course) I think that will make a big difference.
.255 18 hrs 88 rbis, on SD lousy offense.
plus a major league record of only 3 errors this year at 3rd. still sounds better then crede, yet ppl were clamoring for him before the season. and who knows, maybe a change of scenery from the home run killing petco would help as well. if im right the specs at target field are actually rather homer friendly… correct me if im wrong. the thing i key on is he is healthy, improved DRASTICALLY on defense, and has pop. and hes young and wouldnt take much to get. Beltre? 10 mill an year. DeRosa? 8-10 million. Gomez and a prospect for Kouz? would owrk if delmon really is as improved as he looked the last couple of months.
work, even 
I have no doubt that Chone Figgins is a great player, and I love what he’d bring to the Twins, but he’s a Type A free agent and lots of teams are already drooling all over him. I highly doubt the Twins would give up the draft picks, and I’m not so sure I want them to, anyway.
As for Harden, he is indeed electric. But Bedard also has an injury history. He’d come cheap because of that history (likely a one-year, incentive-laden contract) and he has top-of-the-line upside. His numbers were better than Harden’s this year, and he pitched in the AL. The key is that he has to pitch.
While I’d love for the Twins to go out and make a trade for a top-of-the-line starter like Roy Halladay (HA!), they won’t likely do something like that and don’t have a strong enough farm system, anyway. That leaves lower-cost options. And Bedard is the best of them.
Here are my top players for trade bait:
1. Cuddyer
2. Morales
3. Ramos
4. Perkins
5. Liriano
Items 2&3 are contingent on re-sign Mauer.
Cuddyer and Morales has the most value, Ramos has high potential and Perkins and Liriano need a change of scenery.
This from mlbtraderumors a bit back (oct 9th)
Center suggests that to save money the Padres might have to shop Kevin Kouzmanoff, Heath Bell, or both. He even wonders if they’d non-tender Kevin Correia and attempt to sign him more cheaply (presumably using his desire to play near home as leverage).
Would it be better if kouz and bell for a package of gomez and 2 good prospects? being that the padres dont wanna pay kouz or bell arb, they might take a bit less to get rid of them. plus bell and neshek coming back.. can you say sick bullpen again?
JDM, i agree bedard would be the better option with less money risk.. i was just going off the fact that the twins had interest in harden but when bedard was rumored, it seemed like they looked away.
Bill smith seemed to have some type of man crush on harden and we know how he works…
Did anyone else hit ‘mute’ during the TBS broadcast of the Twins-Yankees game? Those guys dug up every obscure, negative statistic about the Twins that they could find-going back as far as 2001. I’m proud our guys. GREAT SEASON, TWINS!
Thank you Tom! Yes I did. I listened to the radio and watched it on TV.
Next years line up:
LF Span (yes, that is LF)
ss O Cab (Punto or Harris get’s every 3rd or 4th start there)
C MVP (2)
1B MVP (1)(every 3rd or 4th start going to Cuddy)
RF Cuddy (every 3rd or 4th start going to Young/Kubel)
DH Kubel/Young
3B Crede/Harris/Valencia/FA
2B FA
CF Gomez (if he needs a blow-Span)
Bench is Young, Morales, Punto, Harris
No need to worry twin fans about playing outside in the snow because you never go that far in october anyway… Go Dodger blue.
We need to export the players that can’t execute fundamental Twins baseball - Gomez, Liriano, Casilla, and Young. You can’t teach common sense. They all are too excitable, lack judgment, make too many boneheaded mistakes and have no plate discipline. Maybe we can sell them on their raw talent that they do have, but they don’t fit in with our system.
2-16, is that really Gardy’s playoff record? Thank god the team plays in the weak central division. If we played in the east or west, the Pohlad’s thrift ways and Gardy’s coaching would be massively exposed.
I agree with the person who said the twins should trade Cuddy. I love Cuddy and he had a great year….but really he’s not going to ever play any better than he did this year. They should trade him while he still has value. I think the twins could get a good player and a decent prospect in return for Cuddy.
Kouzmanoff hit .287 away from Petco (Petco is probably the biggest pitcher’s park there is today) and played solid defense. He would be a nice addition.
Why go after Escobar when you can get Hardy for Liriano? Well both are elite defensive players, Escobar is a more proven offensive player and while I wrote about the Liriano for Hardy trade a couple months ago on my blog, it’s hard to say what the Brewers would or wouldn’t want in return. I’m sure the Red Sox will be going after Hardy this offseason as well.
Randy Wolf? Please.
So a question for all of you that I will also answer a little later in a REALISTIC world would would u like the Twins 25 man roster to be next year and their starting lineup and pitching rotation…
I think we should consider trading Nathan. His value is still high–even with the past few weeks.
Guerrier, Neshek, Mihares and Crain could battle for the closer spot. Maybe even Boof.
We should be able to get a topline infielder for Joe before the other teams realize he is washed up.
Honestly. I do believe with the Pads not wanting to take on the contracts of Kouz and Bell, offer Gomez, Crain and a prospect or two for them. Bell would e much better then Crain, who probably needs a change on scenery. Getting Neshek back will help. But a BP of Rauch, Bell, Mijares, Guerrier and Neshek would be nice.
And nice stats on the away avg for Kouz, Matt. Thats exactly the point I was making, hes a much better hitter then Petco allows him to be, not to mention his power numbers would climb. Hes one year removed from 27 hrs even in Petco, and hes known for having ot 2nd halves of the season, wich would be nice considering Morneau’s track record the second half
And trading Nathan cause of a couple letdowns this season is just nuts. Hes a top 5 closer, and to make it anywhere in the postseason you need a top closer. Forgot to add Nathan to that bullpen possibility.
The dome will not be missed by me as a baseball park. Its awful. And its not anywhere near the advantage that the media claims it is. They’re still hung up on 87 & 91. What is it, 8 straight playoff losses at the dome(or 8 of 9 if ya wanna count game 163). Just cause a player loses a ball in the lights a couple times a year did not mean we had some great advantage. O-Cab lost one in the ceiling in the last KC series, and remember Lew Ford letting Prince Fielder go inside the park? And the crowd getting loud means little, cause fans will get loud no matter which team’s up.
I can’t wait to go sit out there in the chilly spring air next year, cause its outdoor baseball. If you don’t like it, then stay home. Or wear a jacket. If you live in Minnesota then you probably know how to bundle up. April and October could have weather problems, sure, but…oh…those su-u-mmer ni-iiiiights!!!
Since when has fantastic defense at age 23 (Gomez) been so expendable? I am in awe of the people who think we should actually trade him. He has at least as good of a range as torii hunter ever did. As for his batting… torii hunter at 23: .255 AVG, .309 OBP, .380 SLG, 9 HR, 17 2B, 2 3B, 10 SB, 146 TB. gomez at 22 (he wasn’t given enough consistent at bats this year to use his stats at 23): .258 AVG, .296 OBP, .360 SLG, 7 HR, 24 2B, 7 3B, 33 SB, 208 TB. They have very similar stats. I think everyone should cool out when it comes to demanding a trade of Gomez. Please respect the fact that he is still only 23. Give him some time. And while you’re at it, enjoy the amount of love he has for playing the game. It would be nice if more players showed that level of eagerness and excitement.
In a realistic world, here would be my starting lineup next year:
Span, LF
Mauer, C
Morneau, 1B
Cuddyer, RF
Kubel, DH
Hardy, SS
Valencia/one-year stopgap, 3B
Punto, 2B
Gomez, CF
The Twins could re-sign O-Cab and then use Hardy at third and, though I’d rather see Mauer in the 2-hole, clearly Gardy would use O-Cab there. I wonder if Hardy is a pipe dream, however, given potential interest by so many.
Starters:
Bedard/Harden
Baker
Blackburn
Slowey
Pavano/Duensing
Relief:
Nathan
Rauch
Guerrier
Neshek
Mijares
Bonser
Bench:
Casilla
Morales
Harris
Pridie
Buscher
Dang. What a terrible bench. But this is a somewhat realistic roster. Maybe not realistic enough, but I really believe the Twins are going to shoot for the moon next year in an effort to please the fans and that dude who plays catcher.
Here’s Mine…
Span CF
Cabrera SS
Mauer C
Morneau 1B
Cuddyer RF
Uggla 3B (trade with Marlins involving some prospects)
Kubel DH
Young LF
Punto 2b
Bench
Dewayne Wise OF (sign as FA)
Alexii Casilla 2b/ss/3b
Harris 3b/2b/ss
Morales C
Pitching
Rotation
Ben Sheets RHP (Since he’d be coming off an injury it would be a good risk for around 6 mm
Eric Bedard LHP (same as Sheets only for around 8mm
Scott Baker RHP
Nick Blackburn RHP
Kevin Slowey RHP
Bullpen
LRP: Boof
MRPS: Rauch, Mijares, Neshek, Gurrier.
SU: Heath Bell LHP (we aquire in a trade involving Gomez)
CP: Nathan
More of a pipedream but i’d love that roster…
Even though i push for Kouz, i do think Hardy is who they are after, but i also believe due to their trade deadline efforts, harden is their target at sp.
My projection:
Cf Span
C Mauer
1b Morneau
Rf Cuddyer
Dh Kubel
3b DeRosa
Lf Young
Ss Hardy
2b Punto
Rotation:
Harden
Slowey
Baker
Blackburn
Pavano
Bp:
Rauch
Guerrier
Neshek
Nathan
Mijares
Mahay/Perkins
Bonser (or someone like a Joe Nelson)
Bench:
Gomez
Morales
Harris
Casilla
I say this because I’ve seen Gardy go in with 13 position players and 12 pitchers ALOT. Seems to be his preference. And he always seems to like to have 2 lefties in the Bp. Harris can backup 2b, ss and 3b, Cuddyer backup 1b, Morales backup C, Gomez backup at all Of postions and Casilla at 2b and Ss.
This covers all and allows for 12 pitchers (two lefty relievers), Liriano being gone in the Hardy trade, and Harden and DeRosa were both trade deadline targets whom Billy Smith had his eye on.
Open to debate, but that’s how I see it.
GET RID OF MIJARES HE IS TERRIBLE AND A FAT WASTE OF SPACE ON THE BENCH
Joe C again is our status quo chronicler and apologist…..Guess his “top five” manager was able to proof and sign off on his blog entry before deadline…..
I think the twins should buy a Cheetah and play him is center field. He makes a lot of mistakes on the bases and in the outfield and can hardly swing a bat but he sure is fast an entertaining, if it was cheetah I could understand when people say this but Carlos Gomez is a terrible fundamental baseball player. I do not understand the infatuation with this guy. So please blog away and tell me why this guy is worth keeping I do not see it.
Isn’t Bedard kind of a jerk? I seem to remember his teammates talking about him being kind of a pansy. I might be wrong, but we don’t need to add any clubhouse cancers.
Gardy’s Playoff Record: 6-17 for whoever asked.
2002 - 4-6
2003 - 1-3
2004 - 1-3
2006 - 0-3
2009 - 0-3
This is NOT an anti Gardy post either, just looked it up because somebody said they thought he was 2-17.
Might of hated watching games in it, but I am gonna miss the Park that Kirby (R.I.P.) Built.
LOL 2-17 was Derek Anderson throwing the ole’ pigskin. And to think we actually wanted him in Minny.
Good luck to the Twins in their new park. Luckily, I won’t be attending any of those games, because if I am going to pay big $s to watch any entertainment, I want to it in comfort, but to those of you who will go, good for you.
“The Metrodome is a great facility! It
includes adequate dimensions, a super seating capacity, better sightlines than other multisport ballparks had,
a good color scheme, and fewer obstructed views than ballparks from
before the 1960s had. Its ability to host several sports is beneficial, too.
Plus, it is not the Dome’s fault that it has not wide enough walkways, not enough restrooms, and some obstructed views in the upper deck. Anyone’s bashing of this structure stinks!!
”
I would challenge you to try to enjoy a game from section 135 from rows 1-10 that gave you a perfect view of the center field fence and a neckache if you did want to see the infield. That is of course if the person to your right wasn’t leaning over. Then you were screwed.
With that being said, I did find the best place to enjoy a game at the Metrodome. Upper level section 225. On a not so busy night, you could move up higher, have leg room, no annoying neighbors and be able to enjoy a conversation with your friend as the game went on. Several times i’d go on my own. Listen to WCCO/KSTP, get locked into the game in true baseball wonk mode, and with the help of a pulled down cap, forget that there was even a roof (until a flyball hit a speaker of course). here’s what I posted on facebook pertaining to the Dome…………you know, I found myself nostalgic myself after I left the Dome tonight. I remember rainy nights with nothing to do, but wait, they’re playing baseball tonight at the Dome. Days when I had no AC in the summer, but wait, the Dome has AC and I can catch a ballgame too. 1991 World Series, nuff said. Milton’s no hitter in front of me and 5000 people on a Saturday morning. Watching grown men celebrate like children while watching the scoreboard with us fans in 2006 on the last day of the season, and seeing the place full for my last 2 games there. The smell of dome dogs will be forever etched in my memory, yet with it comes the shame of never being in the Hormel Row of Fame.
As far as someone posted about Miller Park, I’ve been there for alot of September games where the roof has stayed open. Matter of fact, the last 2 seasons consisting of 10 games, not once was the roof closed when I was in attendance.
Oh, and the only thing I have to add pertaining to FA’s and trades is that I’m in with those wanting to go after Hardy. The Brewers need pitching bad and maybe Vavra can help JJ get his swing back.
Another name I’ll throw out is Felipe Lopez. Apparently the Brewers want him to play OF, with Weeks coming back next year, Escobar being the SS of the future and Mc Geehee emerging at 3rd. Lopez balked at the idea so it sounds like he’s available. He could be a Punto like utility guy but with the ability to hit over .250
Nuff said, Kevin. The memories will be missed. Just not the obstructions. will miss deep left center where Kirby saved a game and then later sent us home with a “See You Tomorrow Night!”
Miss that mound where Jack Morris threw the easily most recognizable shut out in World Series history.
Miss the walls and that rough turf, where Torii hunted down gapper after gapper, without thought of his own saftey.
Miss first base, where LNP slid into one too many times and broke both wrists, causing Gardy to have to wipe his bum for him.. and later leading to his release.
Well. One can dream, can’t he?
Oh and we forgot Gardy’s dream roster!
1b Punto
2b Punto
3b Punto
ss Punto
lf Punto
cf Punto
rf Punto
dh Punto
Rotation:
Punto, Punto, Punto, Punto and…errr. Punto.
Bp.
Punto
Punto
Punto
Punto
Punto
Bench:
Tolbert.(Cloning machine broke… 
)
And to celebrate everyone of our 162 wins next year…
All the clones take turns sliding into 1st base, and over running 3rd while ignoring the base coach!
Hey…I have an idea, lets build a new ballpark where the dimensions are 318 in LF and 314 in RF. Then we’ll pull in rightcenter 14 more feet than leftcenter because that’s where the wind current is blowing out…that way the Twins can set home run records! What? You’re kidding right? Really? The Yankees have already done that?
houston street just coughed up a two-run lead with two outs in the ninth. i guess that means most closers are chokers?
Yup and thats why they wanna trade nathan. Morneau’s injured, TRADE him too! Oh, include injured Slowey as well! Kubel slumped in the Yankees series! TRADE HIM!
And Mauer? Oh, Mauer… He might have won a batting title and most likely is MVP, but he didnt get 200 hits! SO TRADE HIM TOO!
Cuddyer carried the twins, no way hes gonna help us anymore! Trade him with every one else…
Suggesting trading Nathan, especially when Mauer is eagle eying the team to see if they improve to sign a new deal, is just as ridiculous as any of the above. Every dog has his day, and even the best have bad ones. You dont trade top 5 closers when you are contenders, and Mauer will not be back if the Twinks aren’t contenders.
Thats the same reason you dont trade Cuddyer as well.
Baby Jesus is watching. O.o
Yep…I guess so…just like Larussa and Francona are horrible managers because their teams got swept also (thanks Papelbon) You know…there was a stat last night that went something like this. The Twins have been outscored in play-off games from the 7th inning on by a score of 40 something to 15. Don’t know how far back that stat goes but it shows you this. The Twins have gotten off to great starts…led every Yankee game I believe in the play-offs and during the season. What was one of the biggest complaints about this Twins team this year…middle relief…and it came back to bite us. Blame that on Gardy all you want…but he’s not wearing the GM cap around here.
Except for the Twins and Rockies, every other playoff team spends over $100 million. The Yankees are over $200 million. The next closest is around $135 million. The Marlins are around $36 million and had a winning record this year. A-Roid, Teixiera, and Rivera combined make $65 mil a year…as much as the entire Twins payroll. Does anyone else see something wrong with this?
lidge just closed out the series. guess that means he’s a great closer?
or maybe it means baseball is a little on the unpredictable side …
Lets See:
Gomez Head Case
Young Head Case
Perkins Head Case
Larry Major Head Case
Punto The Little Engine That Couldn’t
Harris Head Case
Morales Slow Head Case
ROMER Stupid Head Case
Nathan Chicken Little
Moeneau Overrated
Romer Blank Head
I equate those that want “perfect’ conditions for them to attend a baseball game as similar to the type of kids that grew up playing video games inside all day long, all summer long, never seeing the light of day. Go out in the world, people. See the light. Feel the sun and fresh air. Take a deep breath, it’s a brand new day.
Can you imagine if they proposed putting a roof on Wrigley??? I used to live down there and went to April games that were butt-freezing. Those games didn’t draw well, but they don’t anywhere.
You put a winning, playoff team on the field and they’ll show in October. Just a few less of you to fight through to get our playoff tickets.
Thanks, in advance. :*)
P Reusse column
1 Gomez to Rochester——Dumb comment
2 Get rid of Nathan—–Even Dumber
3 Mijares closer - C’mon
4 Liriano 15 lbs. —-?
5 no free agent 3rd—go with Valencia or Hughes –Your trying to deliberatly create contoversy
6 Punto everyday 2nd—-finally you’re right
7 new SS—-??? don’t know???
8 bullpen—-forget it
9 Delmon every day—- agreement on that
10 big time free agent pitcher signing —- hope so
HAVE FUN !!! GO TWINS !!!
We’ve gone too soft from nearly three decades in the Dome. That’s what it is. Sad to see too. I went to see the Twins play the White Sox in Chicago on Easter this season. The temp at game time was in the upper 40s and it was windy, but sitting in the sun, watching an outdoor game was beautiful. Would take that any day over sitting under a teflon sky.
Patrick Ruesse is the equivalent of a forum troller. Little of what he said (especially Trade Nathan and Punto everyday 2B) has any sincerity beyond trying to score some cheap clicks.
for what it’s worth…
i love punto. as long as he gives his heart and soul to the twins, i will continue to watch.
.200 avg be damned… love the way the twins play, win or lose.
Imagine in inf defense with morneau at 1b, punto at 2b, hardy at ss and kouz at 3b, finish around the horn with mauer at c.
makes me wanna pray for those 2 trades lol.
punto is a better SS than hardy…
hardy can hit though, when he isn’t in AAA.
Punto is a great defending ss, but he is even better at 2b. Hardy is widely know as a very good defensive ss.
i live in wisconsin… watch a lot of brewer games…
his range is lacking. although he has a strong arm.
also being from wisconsin i know what hatred he faces every day (except from the female type).
…although the same could be said about any member of the twins via twins fans so who knows.
I never agree with Reusse, but if trading Nathan was the difference between a top of the rotation starter or a stud infielder, I would pull the trigger. I’m not saying you could trade him straight up for either, but if it provided financial flexibility to get one or the other, I think it would make the team better. He would also bring significant talent in return. I’m not saying he’s done, or bad or anything like that, but his $12 million salary definitely hinders making other big “splashes” in the offseason. Just something to think about.
most of the time nathan’s presence shortens the game to 8 innings…
need to get A LOT to even consider that trade.
here’s an interesting post from doug glanville’s ny times column — on the phillies sticking with lidge and how detractors can be as important as mentors:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/12/opinion/12glanville-mentors.html?_r=1
doug glanville… as in the skinny dude from the cubs??
Thank God! I have not been to a Twins game in almost 30 years since they decided to play in that abomination. Baseball is back in Minnesota.
I think Glanville is more associated with the Phillies. But, yes, the skinny dude. I believe he’s an Ivy Leaguer and has had this column for several months now. Usually has a pretty interesting point of view.
Trading Nathan makes little sense. The only reasons to trade him would be a salary dump, which they don’t need to do, or to free up cash for a free agent signing. The problem is there are no FAs that are likely to be as valuable as Nathan that would cost anything close to what the Twins would save by trading their closer.
Even though he is a top closer, Nathan isn’t going to bring back a huge haul because his contract isn’t viewed as a bargain. It’s hard to imagine the Twins getting equal value back in trade.
Just did the math…
LNP in odd-numbered years:
.225 Avg
In even-numbered years:
.283 Avg
He’ll be a bargain next year at $4M!!
Joe,
I posted this on one of your stories, but I wanted to post it here in an effort to make you see it.
Could you possibly write a story or blog entry explaining how young Carlos Gomez and Delmon Young are? I have grown frustrated with Twins fans’ frustration with these young outfielders. There is no reason to give up on them and send them packing yet, which what seems like a majority of Twins fans believe.
I have been looking at the early career stats of these two young talents in order to compare them to the stats of two other all-time fan favorites.
First, I will compare one all-time Twins fan favorite to Carlos Gomez (note that the stats are adjusted to a per 162 game average as to account for a discrepancy in the number of at bats):
Player A (Two Seasons, Age 23-24):
.267 AVG, 67 R, 22 2B, 7 3B, 10 HR, 55 RBI, 10 SB, 31 BB, 97 SO, 196 TB
Carlos Gomez(Two Seasons, Age 22-23):
.248 AVG, 73 R, 22 2B, 7 3B, 6 HR, 49 RBI, 27 SB, 27 BB, 120 SO, 176 TB
To me, the strikeouts are the only glaring difference. If Gomez is able to work on his patience at the plate (which he has shown, at times), those numbers will go down, as his average goes up.
Next, I will compare another all-time Twins fan favorite to Delmon Young (note the stat adjustments are the same).
Player B (Three Seasons, Age 24-26):
.304 AVG, 95 R, 29 2B, 9 3B, 13 HR, 73 RBI, 20 SB, 33 BB, 92 SO, 295 TB
Delmon Young (Three Seasons, Age 21-23):
.288 AVG, 75 R, 32 2B, 3 3B, 14 HR, 86 RBI, 10 SB, 29 BB, 125 SO, 255 TB
Again, strikeouts are the only major discrepancy here. Delmon is lacking in runs, 3B, and SB as well, but no one is asking Delmon to steal 20 bases and hit 10 triples in a season. Also, note that Delmon is 3 years younger in each of his seasons.
Now, who are these mystery players?
Player A is 3-time all star, 8-time gold glover , Torii Hunter.
Player B is 10-time all star, 6-time gold glover, 6-time silver slugger, the late, great, Kirby Puckett.
I am in no way saying that either Carlos Gomez or Delmon Young are the next coming of either of these players, but merely arguing that is it much too soon to give up on their potential. They need a lot of work, and as a Twins fan, I hope they put in the hours to become the best ball players they can be.
For me Young and/or Gomez need to play everyday. No more splitting time as it is hurting the development of the players. Both are young talented young men. I thought both digressed a lot this year until Young solidified himself at the end of the year.
i agree with you aaronk. it is definitely detrimental to their growth to not get regular time. i personally believe that cuddyer needs to consider a move back to third base and if he balks at the idea, trade him while his value will never be higher. if he is such a “team guy,” he would realize the benefit of him playing 3rd. everyone clamors about the offensive struggles of the twins players this year. however it was clearly pitching that was the weak spot during the regular season. a good defense can help pitching and having gomez in improves the defense tremendously because he is a better CF than span and span is a better right fielder (sans arm) than cuddyer. in one of my dream scenarios, we somehow replace delmon young with curtis granderson and have an outfield of granderson-gomez-span. now that would be fun to watch.
Love the season wrap-up Joe. Towing the company line as usual.
Joe, I was really disappointed with that article today. They get a brand new stadium, and the solution is to continue to have the lowest payroll in the division? Even if they add 8MM to Mauer’s deal…., or maybe Cleveland would be lower with their salary dump?
We just gave them tens of millions of dollars per year. If all that does is allow them to add nothing to the roster, than we were duped (shocking, rich people duping the masses). I really hope you are wrong.
Great article, Joe. I don’t see the need for big changes. At least within the context of having to stay within budget.
The infield is set and solid. A back-up to Punto at SS would be nice, but a big name isn’t needed for that. Casilla will be back at second and Tolbert is good at third.
Replacing Young and Gomez wouldn’t hurt. They have some guys in the minors for that.
Most people complaining about watching games at Target Field are casual fans anyway. They’ll be there if the forecast is 75 degrees and partly cloudy with a light breeze.
I don’t buy that whole “Twins don’t look to make big changes”.
We heard that mantra all season long this year and BAM
Crede, Cabrera, Pavano, Mahay, Rauche.
Sorry, don’t buy it.
“Replacing Young and Gomez wouldn’t hurt. They have some guys in the minors for that.”
Who could you be talking about?
Revere, Hicks, etc., are in A-ball and everyone above them is a JAG (just a guy).
Ben Revere, Brandon Roberts, Jaun Portes or Steven Tolleson. Tolleson has played some outfield. All are good athletes.
I don’t dislike Young or Gomez, but if they can find better, cheap players (which shouldn’t be that difficult) they should replace them.
“Brandon Roberts, Jaun Portes or Steven Tolleson”
Limited minor league success usually indictates only a possibility for MLB success.
To off-load Gomez and Young, on the outside chance that those dogs can hunt, is a bad gamble.
Gomez and Young. We already know those dogs can’t hunt. At least not very well.
Young is a gross liability in the field. He has some hitting skills, but has a very poor approach to hitting. He swings at the first pitch, even if it’s out of the hitting zone.
Gomez can’t hit at all. He runs bad routes in the field, has a very erratic arm, throws to the wrong base and runs the bases poorly.
Neither has improved in two years. Little risk in trying someone new.
“sane says:
October 13th, 2009 at 12:08 pm
“Brandon Roberts, Jaun Portes or Steven Tolleson”
Limited minor league success usually indictates only a possibility for MLB success.
To off-load Gomez and Young, on the outside chance that those dogs can hunt, is a bad gamble.”
But sane, didn’t you know that many the bloggers here are clairvoyant due to the grass is greener syndrome.
Your comment about hunting is right on the money.
I am not going to hold my breath on Valencia. We have been told for year that he is the next great thing and then towrads the end of the season we keep hearing he isnt ready. If I am not mistaken he is 26 or 27, once you get to that age it is kind of hard to be considered a prospect isnt it. Id like to see Yong get a amajority of a season out in left field. I think he has potential but needs to play on a regular basis for it to develop. Gomez I am not sure how long we want to wait on him, he is fun to watch in center field but it could be a few more years be fore he gets it. By that time Revere or Hicks will probably be ready.
What about putting a package together of Baker/Gomez/Perkins or Liriano for a stud 3b or 2b. Resign Pavano and Cabrera
Rotation
Blackburn
Pavano
Slowey
Duensing
Swarzek/Perkins/Liriano/Free Agent
I think Duesning proved himself a spot in the rotation next year. Povano was solid and wouldnt cost a ton to resign That 5th spot really could be anyone. Give Swarzek another shot. Throw either Pekins or Liriano in the Pen (whichever one we dont trade)
Resign Cabrera for one or two more years if we can get him at a reasonable price. He seemed to like it here.
Span
Trade Commodity
Mauer
Morneau
Kubel
Cuddy
Cabrera
DY
The Twins have already gone down the wrong-headed road of trading away quality starting pitching (Santana and Garza). No need to take that route again. They need Perkins and Liriano.
They need Perkins and Liriano? They need two lefties who are no better then bullpen fodder? if they could package them both for Hardy, good riddance in an instant.
Slowey, Baker, Blackburn, Duensing…
And with Billy Smiths man crush on Rich Harden, would sound like a damn good rotation to me.
The Twins have plenty of infielders better than Hardy. They won’t trade Perkins or Liriano for a crummy player like that.
I would consider Gomez, Perkins, and Liriano Trade fodder now. Young got tons of playing time and responded well. And we all know how Gardy is with playing the hit hand, even if it becomes months cold at times.
Perkins, if they bring back Mahay, will have no spot, Liriano has no rotation spot to go to, but might pick up some in a trade, and gomez has become a late inning defensive replacement.
If the Twins make a trade they should trade Mauer, Morneau, Cuddyer or Kubel. They already proved they can play quite well without one of them. They could get a good pitcher in return.
Run scoring isn’t a problem. They scored over 800 runs in each of the last two years. That’s plenty of runs. More than enough.
They need to improve their pitching and tighten up the fielding, base-running and fundamentals.
Wow. do you watch baseball? infielders better then Hardy? Cause Crede played all 162 games, or punto hits 20 plus homers, or casilla has a .750 plus ops prior to this season?
Prior to this season, Hardy was an ALL-STAR… another thing no leftside inf has been in awhile on twins.
2007: .277, 26 hr, 80 rbis, 89 runs
2008: .283, 24 hr, 74 rbis, 78 runs
09: in 115 g, .229, 11 hr, 47 rbi, 53 runs
even his poor 09 has better lines then casilla and punto, and is similar to a brendan harris season…
oh yeah. HES 27 STILL!
The Twins usually use 8 to 12 starters in a season. The team needs starting pitching depth. Lack of depth has been a huge problem since the Santana and Garza debacles.
They have proven they can afford to part with one of their top sluggers. They should make such a move in order to replenish the depleted pitching stock.
The only way i could ever see trading Nathan in after seeing Neshek handle some closes, or see Slama upp in the bigs for a full year, right now we have no othr option, and Mijares… yeah the guy who fell apart the last 2 weeks of the season, even worse then Nathan.
I do think we keep Nathan for one more year, find out who will take over, then trade him.
I like Hardy, dont know what happened to him this year but I got to beleive he will bounce back. I would imagine they would move him since they got that Esocbar kid at SS and I beleive they have a couple of young 3b they are big on too.
I wonder what kind of money Figgins is going to get? I know it is a pipe dream but him in the leadoff hole and Span at the 2 spot would be pretty sweet next year
Hardy doesn’t have much range, is slow on the bases and can’t play shortstop. He might be okay at third, but he is unproven there. The Twins don’t need to add more question marks.
Hardy has a career .979 fielding percentage. Punto is .978.
This would be a pretty sweet lineup
Figgins
Span
Mauer
Cuddy
Morneau
Hardy
Kubel
DY
Casilla/Punto
Break up that left handed string in the middle of the lineup
Figgins would be great, but spending the money on pitching would make more sense. They have Tolbert at third anyway.
Nathan won’t be traded. That’s heading again in the wrong direction. I wouldn’t expect him to be nearly as good next season as this year. He is old and fading, but still a quality pitcher.
Bunting, the point is if you trade away Cuddyer or any other starting guys, for a so-so starter. You can kiss Mauer good-bye after next season. This day and age, small ball does not get you past the first round anymore. Look at Alcs and Nlcs. Power and Pitching.
Also, being that we have a very wealthy ownership and a new stadium for a cash cow, this team can no longer be considered small market. They arent large market, but at least now they fall in the average range, like an atlanta or any of the texas markets..
Hardy is plodding. Gardenhire wouldn’t play him in the middle. Hardy is worse than Harris, and everyone knows how much Gardenhire dislikes Harris in the middle.
If the team wins more games, why would Mauer care if one of the other sluggers are traded?
Ag, bunting is what you call an old schooler. Tolbert at third.. now you know hes just saying stuff for the chance to pull our chains.
Figgins would be great, but i think he will be out of our price range quickly.
Brewerfan.net scouting report on hardy:
When you think of a defense-first shortstop, you usually think of a guy who plays great defense and doesn’t hit. This doesn’t hold true with James Jerry Hardy. J.J. has excellent range at shortstop, more due to pure instinct than quick feet. He puts away virtually everything he gets to, and has a strong and accurate arm. His defense would have played in the majors the day he was drafted. Offensively, Hardy is blossoming after adding muscle this past year and slightly adjusting his swing. A contact hitter by nature, J.J. has learned to take more pitches and draw walks while keeping the strikeouts down. He projects as a long-gap hitter that may be capable of 15-20 homers at peak. While not slow, he’s not a big threat to steal a base. One of the nicest guys you’ll ever meet, great character guy. Overall, makes you think of a young Robin Yount.
Baseball Prospectus on hardy:
Hardy has such a good arm that some teams considered drafting him as a pitcher out of high school…Though they got him in the second round, they consider Hardy a first-round talent. He has good genes, as his father Mark played professional tennis and his mother Susan golfed on the LPGA tour. Hardy has superior instincts and skills on defense, including a great arm and range. He has soft hands and is fundamentally sound beyond his years…many believe he merely needs more experience with a wood bat. He doesn’t have much foot speed to speak of but gets good jumps on the ball and makes plays other shortstops don’t.
And on Hardy even during down 09 season:
Of course, this doesn’t take into account Hardy’s excellent defense. So far this season, Hardy has been worth 8.7 runs above average by UZR, and was on pace for a UZR/150 10.4 until his major league season was cut short. Currently FanGraphs has him as a 1.6 WAR player through 114 team games. Those extra six singles would make him a 2 WAR player, around average for a shortstop and a good deal above that given his positional adjustment.
Yeah. great instinct, strong accurate arm. and a better career fielding per then punto at ss.
I really don’t think the Twins will trade one of the sluggers. I just think if they do make a big trade, that is the way to go. I don’t expect any big changes. I expect some small deals. Maybe a Pavano signing. Something like that.
Provide some evidence to support your theories, then ill start listening.
if it meant giving up Perkins and a prospect or liriano and a prospect for hardy, bill smith would be wise to jump on it.
Baseball Prospectus is often wrong. Even the Brewers don’t like Hardy and they play almost anyone in the infield. He looks slow and stiff to me. I’ll bet most scouts around baseball see the same thing.
I posted this comment on Howard’s blog:
Tolbert’s regular season numbers since being called back up:
.368 .444 .333 - September
.353 .533 .333 - October
What’s not to like about that? Add slick fielding and excellent speed and you have a real good, complete player. He at least deserves a chance to show if he can play well all season. I think he can. The solution to third base could be right here. You aren’t going to get Ryan Zimmerman. Accept the real world.
Tolbert’s regular season numbers since being called back up:
.368 .444 .333 - September
.353 .533 .333 - October
What’s not to like about that? Add slick fielding and excellent speed and you have a real good, complete player. He at least deserves a chance to show if he can play well all season. I think he can. The solution to third base could be right here. You aren’t going to get Ryan Zimmerman. Accept the real world.
I posted the previous comment over on Section 220.
“J.J. has excellent range at shortstop, more due to pure instinct than quick feet.”
If true (doubtful, sounds like typical fan fantasy), it’s totally due to quick instinct. He has slow feet. Quick instinct will only go so far. Without the physical skills, too many balls go whizzing by.
However they could get a Kevin Kouzmanoff or something. Adrian Beltre is on the Fa market, so is Mark DeRosa, or Hardy is to be had in a trade. If they took a risk on Crede, who is injury prone, bad average, but because he provides them with power….
Accepting the real world would be that playing tolbert as your everyday hotcorner is a sure way to open the door for mauer to leave.
Unlike a ryan zimmerman….. DeRosa, Beltre, Hardy and Kouzmanoff are all possibilties. They are free agents or could be had for a player + prospect.
Honestly in a dream world, i would love to see a trade to Sand diego for a K. kouz and Heath Bell package. Then go ahead and trade Nathan, lol. Maybe to Milwakee for a Hardy + package. But pipe dreams are just that. After all what else do we have until FA actually opens?
“Accepting the real world would be that playing tolbert as your everyday hotcorner is a sure way to open the door for mauer to leave.”
If Tolbert hits .280 - .300, fields well and adds some speed, why would Mauer care? That would be a good player. Good hit, good field, good speed. What do you want?
The Twins hit 170 HR, so they already have more than enough HR power. They scored over 800 runs. They need some fielding, speed and athleticism. Tolbert adds that.
The other plus with Tolbert is he is cheap. More money left over to use to sign Mauer.
“Kouzmanoff”
Are you serious? That guy has concrete blocks for hands.
Ok Matt Tolbert, I know you have a lot of free time on your hands now that the season is over, but I would think you’d have something better to do than promote yourself on a Twins blog under the name Bunting Twins.
Thats what im saying. And btw, concrete blocks for hand just set the MLB record for least errors in a season for a 3b.
not to mention hes a .282 career hitter outside of Petco, and still had 18 hr and 88 rbis while playing 81 in Petco on a bad offensive team.
id like to see tolbert match any of that over a full season.
the same matt tolbert who has played only 109 career games.
2 seasons at 2b. 47 games, .987 FP
2 seasons at 3b. 44 games, .935 FP
2 seasons at Ss. 17 games, .979 Fp
seems like hes MUCH better at ss or 2nd.
Honestly id like to see tolbert get his hitting together and be our starting 2b, but him starting at 3rd is just ridiculous
Sorry for the numerous typos. Fat fingers today, I guess.
“Good hit, good field, good speed. What do you want?”
A bigger sample size?
http://www.sportingnews.com/mlb/article/2009-10-04/san-diegos-kouzmanoff-sets-nl-record-3b
Link for record
And kouz started bad at 3rd
2007: 136 g, .932 Fp
2008: 154 g, .974 Fp
2009: 139 g, .990 Fp
He had improved drastically every year.
Oh and widely considered the gold glover at 3rd for the NL this year. So Mr. Tolbert in disguise, anything else?
Forgive my ignorance, but why would the San Diego Fiscally Conservatives give up an Arb 2 (in 2010) player? Are there reports of the Padres wanting to deal Kouzmanoff?
As we should know, errors don’t mean much.
Almost everything the Twins flubbed in the Metrodome was called a hit this year. About the only time an error was called is when Morneau missed a throw. Then an error was called on the guy who threw it. Unless it was a close play. Then it was a base hit as long as the runner didn’t advance.
Players with a lot of range often get a lot of errors. They get to balls other guys can’t and then make less than perfect throws. Balls glance of their gloves because they reach a lot of balls others can’t.
Kouzmanoff has no range and if the balls that bounce off him aren’t called errors, then I guess he doesn’t make many errors. He still is a stiff.
“A bigger sample size?”
That’s fair. So, give him a chance to play.
Admittedly Kouz does have below average range, however, but what he gets to he takes care of.
So my point is stone hands is wrong. Try stone feet. But honestly his range is pretty close to average, so that wouldnt work either.
“Honestly id like to see tolbert get his hitting together and be our starting 2b, but him starting at 3rd is just ridiculous”
Gardy didn’t think it was ridiculous. He picked him over Harris, Buscher, Valencia, Hughes. Gardenhire likes him.
Boneyard. The Pads dont want to pay Kouz and Bell considering their expected major jumps in salary this year.
From under a million a year each to a major jump for bell and kouz is expected to have a major jump for an above average hot corner player.
I have 3 words for you.
Gardy loves Punto.
Explains it all. And just reveal yourself already Mr. Tolbert.
Kouzmanoff’s fielding will return to the norm next season. He probably got lucky this year outside Petco. Buscher has better range and is a better fielder. Probably a better hitter too.
Kouzmanoff is below average. If he’s considered “above average” in arbitration, the Padres likely don’t want to pay for something they aren’t actually getting in return. They would be wise to dump him.
Okay, im done with this game of Cat and idiot when it comes to baseball mouse. i have better things to do then try and get a point across to someone with a stone HEAD.
Have fun trying to push LNP jr, Mr. Tolbert.
Okay, here’s your bigger sample size.
In 2009 between MLB and AAA, Tolbert’s hitting line is .263/.318/.371.
Keep in mind that as more than half of his ABs were at the minor league level, those stats are generously skewed in Tolbert’s favor.
Bunting Twins,
Gardy didn’t pick Tolbert over Valencia or Hughes. Hughes was not available for Sept. call-up and Valencia was not called up, a decision made by the front office.
Pickadrew, Iget the fact that they are both due raises this winter and both are also under club control for 2 more years. Still, the salaries (particularly for Kouz) should be manageable, even for the Pads. The bigger question is: Are there actual indicia Kouzmanoff is on the market? I’m fine with speculating (I just did it a few minutes ago), I just want to know if there is something more to it.
I’m not Tolbert, but I am a big fan of his. The guy is all baseball. He’s really worked hard to make himself into a major league player. I give him much credit for that.
Also consider that Brendan Harris’s 2009 hitting line (all MLB) is .267/.324/.396.
“Fence” as in the thing in your yard. I wasn’t accusing anyone of needing to move stolen goods and needing a fence.
And Boneyard, the Pads have been looking at Kouz’s value for the last 2 years, they are a rebuilding team, which rebuilding teams look deal above average players for building blocks that cheaper, AKA the twins 2 before the 5 division titles in 8 years.
But anyways off to work, bbl.
Bunting Twins says:
October 13th, 2009 at 2:12 pm
“The Twins hit 170 HR, so they already have more than enough HR power. They scored over 800 runs. They need some fielding, speed and athleticism. Tolbert adds that.”
The Twins might’ve scored 800 runs, but they still need to eliminate the near automatic outs at the bottom of the lineup, and Tolbert hasn’t proved he can do that at all. What’s more concerning is that while the Twins hit 172 HR’s, their pitching staff gave up 185. I hope Baker and a healthy Slowey will improve next year, but they still need to add starting pitching depth.
Hughes was available. Gardy didn’t like the reports on Valencia. Didn’t want him.
Bunting Twins, Hughes was not available because the Twins had him playing in the Baseball World Cup.
yeah search google for kevin kouzmanoff trade rumors and you’ll be surprised how many the last couple seasons pops up. he was rumored a lot last trade deadline. A lot to the cubs, which doesn’t make much sense looking at it, but rumored a lot still.
Wouldn’t be surprised if the rumors pop up again heavy after the WS.
I think you’re essentially right, B-Good. However, what the club needs isn’t starting pitching depth, they need a true #1.
Punto and Tolbert eliminated the near automatic outs at the bottom of the lineup with their improved play. I expect that to continue in 2010.
Morales and his goofy swing was a dud in the bottom third. He will be in Rochester or gone next season (hopefully).
Oh, yeah, his name popped up at the deadline and it may very well this winter, although it’s not a certainty. I was just wondering if there were recent (later than 9/1/09) reports.
Hughes was playing in the world cup because Gardy didn’t want him butchering third for the Twins. Better to butcher third for the Aussies. Gardy could have had him if he wanted him.
Luke Hughes makes Kouzmanoff or Buscher look like Brooks Robinson.
Lol. Not really many trade rumors until FA market is about to open up. Try http://www.mlbtraderumors.com, right now its just alot of speculation. Least until after the WS.
OK - here’s a question for you. Morales did not hit well for the last couple weeks. How is that more relevant than Tolbert’s struggles when he was first called up and got regular playing time?
When Hughes played winter ball, his manager in Latin America wouldn’t let him play third. I think his manager wanted to win.
for some reason it included the comma in the link so here.
It’s the swing, Benny W. He has that goofy little uppercut swing. That will never work. Major league pitchers figured him out fast. He’s finished.
Actually, i just spent a little time researching this, pikadrew, and it appears that the Pads need to “choose between Kouzmanoff and Headley (Chase)” according to the team report on Yahoo. I didn’t get to any of the Sand Diego papers. I think Kouzmanoff would be good for the Twins at 3B (I disagree with Bunting Twins’s player eval), but I still think a #1 starter should be the priority.
Valencia and Hughes are both goofballs who won’t take instruction. Hughes is considered really a mess.
Tolbert is a serious minded, hardworking player. He listens to the coaches, makes adjustments and gives everything he has. No superstar, but a real good player.
As well as i do. and knowing Billy Smith, hes going to try and make a run at Rich harden he tried real hard at the deadline, and Harden does have #1 Ability.
Harden, Slowey, Baker, Blackburn, Pavano/Duensing.
Sounds good to me.
How many stolen bases does Kouzmanoff have?
And no doubt about it they would choose Headley, he has way more upside, younger and has contributed at the MLB level, albeit in LF.
Thats why i say i wouldnt be shocked to see the twins go after Kouz and/or Hardy (more likely or then and, of course) because both are under 30, have upside, and could be had for a decent package, without giving up the bank, and even more… they are better then what we have.
Bunting Twins says:
October 13th, 2009 at 3:25 pm
How many stolen bases does Kouzmanoff have?
Now you are getting desperate. Have fun with that.
Yeah I like that starting rotation. Can Harden stay healthy, though? Bedard intrigues me because of the fact that he’s probably a Type B.
Bunting Twins, I don’t care how many SB’s Kouzmanoff has. The question is, is he a good baserunner? See, Gomez, Carlos, for a guy with speed who doesn’t exactly instill confidence on the bases.
Anyways ill hop back on at work, but ill be back in like an hour. Boneyard, honestly try more then yahoo. Sometimes they are pretty late on coverage. And usually team trade rumors dont pick up until after the postseason.
The Twins spent too much time standing around waiting for the home run last year.
Gardy started moving the runners a little after Morneau went down. That’s when they took off and started winning.
The Twins need more speed and athleticism.
Kouzmanoff is another stand around type. They have too many players like that already.
The Twins were better after Crede and Morneau went down, because Gardy changed the teams approach.
“The Twins were better after Crede and Morneau went down, because Gardy changed the teams approach.”
All those HR’s from Cuddy, Kubel, and Young after Morneau and Crede went down sure got in the way of things, that’s for sure.
Totally agree, pikadrew. Mlbtraderumors is where I go first, but there’s nothing recent there on Kouz.
Kouzmanoff is a sloth bear. The Twins need more rabbits.
Gomez can be a rabbit, but he can’t get on base.
Just say NO to more sloth bears.
I dont think the Twins were “better” without Crede or Morneau but due to their respective injury problems they were doing the team more harm then good trying to play hurt.
“All those HR’s from Cuddy, Kubel, and Young after Morneau and Crede went down sure got in the way of things, that’s for sure.”
Twins:
2008:
163 games - 829 runs - 111 HR - .279 AVG
2009:
163 games - 817 runs - 172 HR - .274 AVG
Bunting,
The Twins were ranked 5th in all of MLB in runs scored this year.
The extra home runs didn’t hurt. Standing around waiting for them did. That is my point.
Offense was not the Twins biggest problem this year it was getting guality pitching and getting it consistently.
Twins OPS:
2008: .748
2009: .774
How did 61 more home runs and a substantially higher OPS add up to fewer runs?
Think about it.
Maybe the Twins should trade away 61 home runs for a couple quality pitchers. The stats seem to indicate that’s the way to go.
I don’t know. I kind of liked the extra homers.
You stat guys figure this out for me. I’ll read what you say tonight. Talk to you later.
I actually had to get some work done. Last year, the Twins hit .305 w/ RISP. It was subsatantially different this year. Think about that. But again, offense wasn’t the issue. Pitching was the issue. Hard to blame that on “standing around.”
Bunting
The OPS was higher this year due more to the SLG then the OBP but the Twins OBP wasn’t bad this year either they ranked 5th in allof MLB in that category as well this year. The problem was the pitching!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hmm, I’m not sure waht you’re getting at, BC. Oh, yeah, it was the pitching. Duh.
I know the Twins problem was the PITCHING!!!!!, but my question was how do you hit for a higher OPS and hit 61 more home runs and score fewer runs!!!??? Are you saying that happened because of the PITCHING!!!!!!!!!??????? Their OBP was also higher this season, yet they scored fewer runs. Is this all because of the PITCHING!!!!!!!!!!??????
Batting Average with RISP. Is that the answer?
People…don’t bother arguing with Bunting. If he’s not C r a i g, he’s his dang clone.
That third year on Casey Blake’s contract really wouldn’t look all that bad now would it?
Sure in two years he could (I repeat could)regress, but if he puts up similar next year as he did this year, then that third year of the contract he could be used as a utility player - 3b/1b/OF. Now paying a guy $4.5 million to be a utility player (that’s what the third year would have cost the Twins) could be considered too much, but hey, isn’t that what they will be paying Punto next year???
T - what is your assesment of Valencia. I just cant get overly excited about a guy who is 25 and the front office says still is not ready, but he is supposed to be one of our better prospects. It seems as if he has done ok in the minors but really hasn’t tore it up.
If they won’t go over $90M in payroll next year, then they won’t go beyond the 1st round of post-season again.
I agree with Bunting. I kind of liked the extra homers. Now buy a couple of high priced free agent pitchers and go that route. Buying free agents is working good for the Vikings. The Wilfs are showing up the Pohlads.
I think we’ll need the extra home runs again next year. The only reason the Twins scored so many runs in 2008 is because they hit an incredible (and unsustainable) .305 with RISP.
Bunting Twins says:
October 13th, 2009 at 3:07 pm
“Punto and Tolbert eliminated the near automatic outs at the bottom of the lineup with their improved play. I expect that to continue in 2010.”
Hopefully we won’t have to put this theory to the test because that would mean that both Tolbert and Punto are starting next year. I’m more inclined to believe that their season stats (Tolbert .232 avg .303 OBP & Punto .228 avg .337 OBP) are more indicative of what we can expect from them than their September stats (Tolbert .333 avg .368 OBP & Punto .292 avg .407 OBP). Larger sample sizes tend to be more accurate.
“If they won’t go over $90M in payroll next year, then they won’t go beyond the 1st round of post-season again.”
i disagree, romer. with a little luck (ok, a moderate amount of luck) the twins could have advanced this year.
in ‘87, a seemingly inferior twins team won with only two solid starting pitchers, a weak-hitting catcher and lombo at second base. but enough things went their way — against both detroit and st. louis.
in ‘91 both hrbek’s wrestling move at first base and lonnie smith’s baserunning blunder went the twins way.
but in 2009, the baseball gods seemed to turn against the twins after game 163 — including no rest at all before game one and having to rely on a pitcher with only a handful of major-league starts.
another front-line starting pitcher and a few breaks in games two and three would have made things much closer — and it’s not like the twins got blown away — even against the mean and mighty yankees.
i do HOPE, however, they spend $90m or more.
If they don’t go over the $90 mil payroll they might go beyond the first round. If they do go over the $90 mil, they might not make the playoffs at all.
They extend Mauer and pay the arbitration guys and they might go over that mark without making any changes at all.
Punto has shown he can go long periods of time hitting about .300 and long periods batting .205. Personally, I believe it all comes to attitude. He has a little bit of a hero complex and also when you hand him a starting job instead of having him compete for it he thinks he has to hit homeruns for some reason. Seriously, that uppercut seing from his arse through July and all of 2007 also made it tougher for him to judge pitches. Put in a clause that suspends and fines him for any homeruns he hits and you might see closer to that .300 ave. I cringe that once or twice he hits a homerun cuz it seems to make him believe he can do it more often.
swing not seing
good point, criminalities.
mariners, cubs, astros, white sox, braves, tigers and mets all went well over $90m this year and didn’t even make the playoffs.
cardinals spent less than $78m but supposedly had the starting pitchers — they didn’t make it past the first round, either. and that’s not to mention the red sox …
as for punto, what a spectacular month he had — followed by 4-for-9 with three walks, a big rbi, several great at-bats and some strong second base (with the one spectacular play) against the yanks.
if he only woulda … oh, never mind.
which is probably pretty much related to what you’re saying, crim.
What the hell is with this continuing fasination with JJ Hardy? He had such a “fantastic” season for the Brewers that they demoted him to their Triple A club.
I think the fascination is that JJ Hardy is a top 3 defender (based on plus/minus rankings) and in 2007 and 2008 he averaged a .280 average, with 25 HRs, and 77 RBI. I think the fact that you could try to get him for cheap hoping he returns to form from a couple years ago and the worst thing that would happen is you get a good defensive ss who can throw the ball to first instead of the lobs that Punto/Cabrera have been throwing.
If they won’t go over $90M in payroll next year, then they won’t go beyond the 1st round of post-season again.
Yeah, because that worked so well for Boston this year and the Cubs last year.
Is anybody else getting sick of the Nathan “debate”?
It must be great to be Ruesse right now. He’s sitting in the best Win/Win Scenario ever.
1) If the Twins deal Nathan, then struggle in close games: He can come back that he was only throwing out some thoughts to ponder and that Nathan never should’ve been dealt. Bonus ego-boosting if Nathan succeeds elsewhere.
2) If the Twins deal Nathan, then somebody else emerges as closer and the Twins succeed: He can come back with how he was the whole reason the trade even happened. Bonus ego-boosting if Nathan struggles.
3) If the Twins don’t deal Nathan and he struggles (or the team doesn’t make the playoffs): He can come back with how Nathan should’ve been dealt, and then can post stats from players he felt the Twins could’ve gotten and how they would’ve helped the team more than Nathan.
4) If the Twins don’t deal Nathan and succeed: He can gloss over ever suggesting it and bask in the glory of a successful Twins season.
Until they don’t win the World Series and he does his next click-baiting article about dealing one of Mauer or Morneau.
I’m not against seeing if you can get a good return for trading Nathan, but the problem with Reusse’s argument is that he’s basing it on 2 games versus the best offense in the league.
And I don’t even blame Nathan for the runs scored while he was on the mound in Game 3.
It’s not like Nathan was the only “elite” closer to cough up some runs in the playoffs. The Twins even chased MR out of Game 2. The whole discussion is ridiculous. Nathan isn’t going anywhere.
I think the idea of trading Nathan is laughable and just shows how short of a memory some of us fans have, I for one have not forgotten about Dave Stevens.
If Nathan saves Game 2, and pulls a rabbit out of his hat in Game 3, do you think Reusse would write a column about how trading Nathan is a top offseason priority?
If Nathan saves Game 2, we don’t have this discussion.
Instead, Ruesse would be going on about something like how Pavano wasn’t “clutch” because of those two homers he gave up after 6 or so innings of near perfect baseball.
His next article will be about trading Jason Kubel because of his poor performance in the ALDS.
Our buddy Seth is on the local radio station talking about the Twins right now.
To sum up my thoughts on this Nathan thing:
“Man, the Twins bullpen has been a sorespot through most of 2009. I think the best way to fix that would be to trade away their All-Star closer.”
While we’re at it, let’s strengthen our defense by trading Mauer…and bolster our rotation by dealing Blackburn.
*should read “strengthen our offense”*
The only legit argument that Ruesse has is the fact that the other members of the bullpen are going to get more expensive. I would love to see them bring back all the pitchers on the 25 man roster, add Boof, Neshek, and Slowey and one more solid starter.
Although it remains to be seen how Boof and Neshek recover from their surgeries, one positive for the Twins, even if they do nothing during the offseason, is that they will have much more depth in the pitching department.
BC-
Good point. I think it’s way too premature to jump on this “Nathan is cooked” bandwagon, but it IS legit to wonder whether $11.5 million is a little too much to be spending on a closer for a small budget team (hopefully moving to mid-budget team). I really think they should explore what kind of return they could get for him. If it’s not a haul, keep him. If you can improve the team significantly then pull the trigger.
“Yeah, because that worked so well for Boston this year and the Cubs last year.”
I’m not talking about merely throwing money out there as a solution. But one of the driving forces of the Nathan “debate” (which I’m sick of too) is the lack of money to make moves. Hence, trade away the Nathan money burden.
Isn’t it true the 6 guys will be paid $62M on the Twins payroll next year? You really think that $25M will cover the rest — 1)Keep the supporting players, 2)Get one very good starting pitcher, 3)Repair the BP, 4)Get an adequate 3B?
I’m not talking about copying the Red Sox or Cubs model, but rather being a little more liberal with the payroll in this unique opening year at Target.
It is unlikely they would get a haul for Nathan. Not because he isn’t good but because his contract is close to market. They could get something for him (more if they wait until mid-season and there is a contender in need of a closer) but they won’t get a top starter or stud infielder.
Twins owe $62M for 8 guys next season. Throw in a bunch of arbitration-eligibles and minimum wage guys and you’re looking at around $75M for 22 or 23 players. Not a whole lot of flexibility. Would definitely pursue a Kouzmanoff/Heath Bell package. Give SD either Delmon or Gomez, plus Rauch ($2.9M)and a prospect or two?? That would solidify 3B and the 8th inning.
That’s all working on the assumption that payroll won’t expand (which I understand is the Twins Fan way).
Also, why trade Rauch? The guy was good as a Twin, not to mention a spark plug on the field.
T,
Plus a guy I’d want on my side in a bench clearing brawl.
I want Rausch to be the team mascot too.
“Twins owe $62M for 8 guys next season.”
And that could increase $5M+ if they rewrite Mauer’s contract and jack it up for next year to contrast/offset his possible long-term concessions.
So then you’d be up to $80M+ for those 22 or 23 players airhole27 talked about at 2:51.
How ya gonna get Washburn/Beltre and/or whoever with a $90M limit?
I don’t think you get a haul for Nathan either saam, but if they could get a couple of good prospects and turn those plus somebody else into a starting pitcher or infielder it might work. That’s how I would do it on MLB 05 anyway.
“I don’t think you get a haul for Nathan either saam, but if they could get a couple of good prospects and turn those plus somebody else into a starting pitcher or infielder it might work.”
And the sound you just heard was Mauer pushing his chair away from the negotiating table…..
