Offseason Week 1: Twins plot their strategy
Posted on October 15th, 2009 – 12:20 PMBy Joe Christensen
The Twins are holding their annual organizational meetings this weekend in Fort Myers, Fla. General Manager Bill Smith and his top advisers will review everything with Manager Ron Gardenhire, along with managers, coaches, instructors and scouts from throughout the system. They’ll discuss the organization’s strengths and weaknesses, and hone their offseason strategy.
To think along with the Twins’ brain trust, check out the TwinsCentric Offseason GM Handbook 2009-10. The think tank of Seth Stohs, John Bonnes, Nick Nelson and Parker Hageman have outdone themselves. For $9.95, you get 137 easy-to-read pages that will help sharpen your own opinions moving forward.
There’s a look at key offseason dates, report cards on the 2009 Twins, a payroll analysis (2010 and beyond), an organizational depth chart, along with chapters on “The Joe Mauer Dilemma,” 40-man roster decisions, trade targets and the free agent market. Finally, there are suggested blueprints for Smith. Stohs, for example, makes a strong case for the Twins to trade for Marlins ace Josh Johnson.
(*) In our offseason preview package, I wrote a piece headlined, “Don’t count on any big changes for the Twins.” If you haven’t yet, I’d suggest reading the chart that accompanied that piece, “Heavily Invested,” as a reminder of the commitments the Twins have for 2010. Even if this team doesn’t lift a finger, the 2010 payroll would swell to about $78 million.
Reusse advocates trading Joe Nathan and making sure “Carlos Gomez has a complete list of housing options in Rochester, N.Y., so that he will be comfortable while spending the 2010 season as the Red Wings’ starting center fielder.” Souhan and Reusse debate the Nathan trade idea here.
(*) Some readers hammer us for not being more critical of the Twins’ approach, but I think it’s because the Star Tribune’s baseball coverage brings with it decades of experience and a perspective that spans MLB. We’re not sugarcoating what it means to go 2-16 in their past 18 postseason games, but we’re also not going to suggest a radical makeover. Here’s an interesting perspective on the Twins’ latest three-and-out postseason from former Dodgers GM Fred Claire.
The bottom line is that if you were to take a poll of those involved in Major League Baseball, my guess is that the Twins would come out as the most respected organization in the game. You hear this from the scouts and player development people throughout the game, and you hear it from the general managers of other teams.
(*) More food for thought: The Twins had MLB’s fifth best local TV ratings this season (6.25), for games on Fox Sports North, according to the Sports Business Journal. The Twins’ ratings actually declined by 16.4 percent from 2008, but their games were still viewed by an average of 108,000 households.
For comparison, the Cleveland Indians’ ratings plunged 27.4 percent, to 2.84, and the Indians were viewed by an average of 43,000 households. Cleveland entered the season with high hopes — not to mention an Opening Day payroll of $81.6 million, compared to the Twins’ $65.3 million — but after sputtering early, the Indians conducted a mid-season fire sale, and as expected, viewers were not impressed.
For me, this was another reminder of the strengths the Twins have moving forward. Their brand is strong. They are now unhinged from the revenue limitations of the Metrodome, and there will be no excuse for not being aggressive with their payroll at Target Field. That doesn’t mean they have to win a bidding war for free agent John Lackey, but they better keep Mauer and the rest of their core intact, while finding the right complementary pieces to get this team over the hump.
Note: The Twins named Ben Revere their 2009 Minor League Player of the Year, and David Bromberg took home their Minor League Pitcher of the Year honors. Revere, 21, won the same award last year, becoming the first Twins prospect to do that since LaTroy Hawkins in 1993 and 1994. The outfielder batted .311 with a .372 OBP, a .369 SLG and 45 stolen bases in 121 games for Class A Fort Myers. Bromberg, 22, went 13-4 with a 2.70 ERA, with 148 strikeouts and 63 walks in 153.1 innings pitched for Fort Myers.
340 Responses to "Offseason Week 1: Twins plot their strategy"
“The bottom line is that if you were to take a poll of those involved in Major League Baseball, my guess is that the Twins would come out as the most respected organization in the game. You hear this from the scouts and player development people throughout the game, and you hear it from the general managers of other teams.”
funny stuff. after reading these strib blogs on a regular basis for several years, the above statement seems to represent an alternate universe.
“We’re not sugarcoating what it means to go 2-16 in your past 18 postseason games, but we’re also not going to suggest a radical makeover.”
one definition of insanity is doing the same thing time and time again and expecting a far different outcome…
“They are now unhinged from the revenue limitations of the Metrodome, and there will be no excuse for not being aggressive with their payroll at Target Field.”
I hope they’re aggresive, but not stupid. It’s easy for a team to get sucked into a Carlos Silva or Barry Zito type deal that handcuffs them for years.
Hey Joe, do you think the Twins Org. loves being the ‘underdog’ or ‘little engine that could…well, maybe’ every year? To them it may be cute and give them a unique mistique in MLB but to us fans..not so much. Time for Billy and crew to have a big year for 2010 and it starts now.
mickey…is it possible that those involved with all of MLB, might, just might, know more than all of the opinionated bloggers that know as much as I know…and that is diddly squat, and I admit it. In fact, I don’t know a damned thing. 
Glad to see that you have a column, Joe, since I’ve been suffering through post season blog withdrawl or PSBW. I’m waiting for the day that the Twins sign Mauer to that long term contract and will celebrate it - I’m also in the camp that doesn’t want to trade Nathan away since I don’t see any real alternatives for him in our current bullpen and I don’t like the idea of a closer by committee. I believe that the Twins organization is well respected by the other teams and I think the reason why is because they play fundamentally sound baseball and the front office doesn’t normally make moves without considerable deliberation and planning. I hope their planning for 2010 includes getting a strong starting pitcher (not Baker) and some major help in the infield. I would be okay with signing Cabrera if they get a quality 3rd baseman since Cabrera’s range isn’t what it used to be. At any rate, we’ll start watching the divisional series tonight and root for the Angels to win (at this point in time anyone other than the Yankees looks good) and meet up with the Phillies for the World Series. I’m not really interested in seeing a “Freeway Series” between the Angels & Dodgers.
my best guess is that the payroll will not go far over 80m. they will pick up a vet starter, maybe resign pavano or washburn if he comes fairly cheap.
they will add an infielder in the way they have for the last several years. we’ve had lamb, everett, crede and others in the past that are not stars but in most cases fading near stars. this hasn’t helped for the most part and most have been poor/bad signings. however, i think that is what they will do again. so i expect they will pick up one of 3b, ss or 2b in free agency for 5m max signing and go with punto and tolbert in the other 2 spots. imo harris is gone and it wouldn’t surprise me if red is back.
Any idea on price tag for Chone Figgins? He would be a perfect fit at 3B and in the 2hole between Span and Mauer.
wow GGG you are painting a bleak picture! I thought the new stadium would bring sunshine and rose petals year round!!
Do not trade Joe Nathan. Caveat: unless you can trade him to Atlanta for Yunel Escobar. Escobar is one of the leagues best emerging shortstops and would be starting to peak at about the same time the core of good players the Twins have. He’s a shortstop you can build around. Better to have him on the way up, then Nathan on the way down…
With the economy the way it is I dont see a lot of teams getting into bidding wars for free agents this off season. I think this is the off season to get good players very cheap.
Exactly, BC/ND.
If all it takes to satisfy some groups of “fans” around here is for the Twins to shell out $100 million for payroll, they can probably do that starting next season.
I’ll cast a far more critical eye on WHAT they spend money on than HOW MUCH money they spend.
I think Smith should get points for going out and adding Cabrera, Mahay, Rausch and Pavano at mid year. In total, that was a very “unTwins” thing to do and I think reasonable fans (and core players) had to agree it’s indicative of a change in philosophy.
I don’t expect Lackey or Figgins in a Twins uniform in 2010. But I do think it’s reasonable to expect something more than “just” signing Mauer’s extension this off-season.
This is going to be a very interesting FA market this offseason.
Last year, there were essentially two separate FA signing “seasons”. before January, teams anxious to fill spots bid up the prices of some guys and players signed the usual “overmarket” deals (see: Punto, Nick). After year end, the market dropped and the “going rate” for FAs was lower than it has been in years.
So when teams go to negotiate this November/December, what will they consider the “market rate” to be? Last fall’s rates or last spring’s rates? Will everyone sit back and let the Yankees overpay whoever they want before the Winter Meetings and then hope the prices are lower again as spring training gets close?
I think BC/ND is right on. I have heard about a lot of teams having a bad revenue years. I think the Twins, by moving into a new stadium, might well be one of the few expecting higher revenue this coming year. Hopefully, that translates into the Pohlads prying open the wallet a little wider and Billy finding some good deals.
I also agree with Unbelievable about Yunel Escobar though he, too, has had Gomez-like moments and has been benched from time to time for stupid plays on the bases and in the field.
“I’ll cast a far more critical eye on WHAT they spend money on than HOW MUCH money they spend.”
Usually the PoD if for saying something funny. I nominate this one - common sense deserves a mention every once in a while
Reusse is correct in one aspect, making sure Carlos Gomez spends the year in Rochester. He is wrong when it comes to wanting to trade Joe Nathan. Nathan is the best closer in baseball at the moment and nothing suggests that he won’t be for the remainder of his contract. The Twins also have to show the committment to win if they are to have any chance at re-signing Joe “The Mauler” Mauer and enticing any other possible players (i.e.legitimate third baseman) that could help this team. This team still has the potential to be very contenders for quite a few years if they make well thought out decisions. One more thing, no one has really brought up that it might be wise to trade Mike Cuddyer while he still has a little value left. Other than doing a good job filling in at first base he really hasn’t done much over the last few years unless you consider hitting solo home runs and and leaving runners in scoring position a good thing.
I think the Twins tv ratings would continue to improve if they could get WFTC to actually upgrade to an actual HD signal. As an over-the-air broadcaster, their games are the worst to watch. I’m sure you’d have more tune in if they could improve the video quality.
onslow, Rivera>Nathan, I don’t think you would find too many people who would disagree.
BC-
Great, great point in your 12:41 post. As fans, we often beg for help and want to add player “X” not matter what the cost. We often get frustrated by the lack of moves the Twins make, but being stuck with a Zito or Silva contract would handcuff the franchise for years. As much as Bill Smith drives me nuts, a conservative approach is often (not always) the correct approach. Next time I lobby for adding a long term, big money contract please give me this perspective again.
fire do you expect them to resign mauer at a min. 8m to the present payroll and spend a 10-20m on free agents?
8 players under contract at 60+m plus any mauer extra money. 8 players cheap around 500k gets us to 61 +4 or 65m plus mauer. 8 more players with arb. ave. 2m ea +16m that gets us to 81m plus mauer extra money. how much do they have for free agents? 4-9m maybe for a payroll of 90? if they give mauer a new 20m a yr contract they will be at 88m. how much is left for free agents?
not trying to be bleak but realistic. unless they get into the 90’s for payroll if they extend mauer there is little money to sign any fa’s.
Thanks Joe. I’m so glad you liked the Handbook, and I appreciate you spreading the word.
One thing I’d like to add is that you can get a **FREE** download of 1/3 of the Offseason GM Handbook to see if you like it or not. Just go to TwinsCentric and you’ll see how to download the full book or have us send you 1/3 of the book **FREE**.
Again, thanks everyone. If you really want to dive into the offseason options, as opposed to just spouting off, I hope you’ll check it out.
Sincerely,
John Bonnes, the Twins Geek.
They’ll discuss the organization’s strengths and weaknesses, and hone their offseason strategy.
Which if you’re Patrick Reusse would sound something like this:
Gardy: “Well, last season our bullpen struggled mightily. We eventually pulled it together with the help of Jon Rauch and Ron Mahay, but I think it’s still cause for concern.
So I guess the best strategy would be to trade Joe Nathan, and then cross our fingers that Boof Bonser and Pat Neshek bounce back from their respective surgeries.”
no way Reusse actually believes 99% of the columns he writes. he just wants readers.
The Pohlads can put a moratorium on all contributions to politicians (sheesh, I couldn’t believe it when I read that they’re big-time, major-league contributors to Demoncrats (not a misspelling).
Then, use this money to sign either Bedard, Lackey, Webb, or Harden (assuming that options aren’t picked up for the latter two) to incentive-ladened contracts, with the potential for big payoffs.
Re-sign Cabrera, Rausch, Mahay, &, of course, Pavano. With the money the Pohlads would save from not making political contributions, this would be no problem, along with:
SIGN MAUER THIS WINTER.
Keep Joe N. Yea, he racked up stats against Central Division opponents, but so what? That’s the division in which play the Twins. A really good run in the CD in 2010 could give the Twins a shot at the best record in the AL and home field advantage throughout the playoffs.
Then, offer Valencia, Liriano, Perkins, Bonsor, Buscher, and Revere to the Nats for Zimmerman, provided that the Twins and Zimmerman can agree to a 6-year deal. With the Twins savvy in scouting and player development, in a few years, the farm can be re-stocked with quality players.
If no Zimm deal, then, realistically, let’s see about Crede next year. Beltre is too eratic and unpredictable with regard to both injuries and performance. No way should the Twins take a chance with him., or Washburn, for that matter.
So, 2010 would look as such:
Span - CF
Mauer - C
Zimmerman - 3B
Morneau - 1B
Cuddy - RF
Kubel - DH
Young - LF
Punto/Tolbert - 2B
Cabrera - SS
Tolbert/Punto
Ramos C
????
Slowey
Blackburn
Baker
Pavano
FA?
Nathan
Neshek
Guerrier
Mijares
Mahay
Rausch
Crain (he improved a lot from late Aug.)
Duensing
Let’s not go overboard with some crazy, wild rebuilding. We’re close.
Gomez & Casilla need to spend a full season in AAA.
OK, so Gomez is going to be at Rochester in 2010, and Cuddyer is going to be traded. So who does that leave in the outfield with Young and Span? If the answer is Kubel, that leaves two outfielders who don’t cover a lot of ground. Who would be the backups? I’m not sure there’s anyone at triple-A who is worthy. Who would DH in Kubel’s spot?
Trade Cuddyer and Morneau gets injured and who is the backup first baseman? Buscher? Cuddyer just led the team in homers and topped 90 RBIs. He exceeded 100 RBIs in 2006 and was around 80 in 2007. He led the league in outfield assists one season.
One thing I just don’t understand are the number of people who want to dump him — he’s in his prime. If there were young outfield studs coming up, perhaps. But there don’t appear to be any.
BTW, Mariano’s cutter went to low nineties from mid-to-upper nineties and he, too, has had some off-and-on problems, but didn’t in ‘09. Only for an offer Twins couldn’t refuse should any consideration be given to trading Nathan; that is, a class A player for Nathan, because he’s still a class A closer.
amtrekman, you’re right, Cuddy is close to a class A FA and he’s no Jacque Jones. No way could the Twins replace his power and RBIs with what’s in the minors today.
Agree with the sentiments of many posters here. Dr. Don, while I agree that it’s a possibility that those “involved with all of MLB” might know more than us “opinionated bloggers” I don’t really think my blogging opinions change based on this fact. In other words, while I need to think rational thoughts & make actual informed decisions in my “day job” life, as a fan, I’m far more emotional about my opinions on what the Twins should be doing. So while I get the whole idea that the Twins are “model organization…blah, blah, blah,” it’s emotionally gutwrenching as a fan to suffer through the losing over and over and over in the playoffs to the tune of that 2-16 record. (God that’s awful, even if I know I should be glad they at least made the playoffs!) So while I’m happy Bill Smith at least stepped up & made some mid-season changes that helped us reach the playoffs, if the management does next to nothing to upgrade the team this offseason, assuming that somehow getting players like Bonser & Neshek back from injury constitutes an upgrade or hoping that Valencia makes the jump to be the answer at 3b, I’ll be extremely disappointed. I don’t expect huge free agent signings, but I expect them to sign Mauer & I would completely understand if Mauer was unwilling to sign if he doesn’t see evidence of the Twins at least showing an effort to upgrade their starting pitching & the middle infield. That’s my expectation as a fan (”fanatic?”) going into the new stadium.
cuddyer is also one of if not the main ‘captain’ type guy on the team.
as is nathan.
it would be stupid to trade either or them.
1. Yes, People who earn a living making baseball decisions, that have been doing it their whole careers know more than the columnists- and guess who they DEFINATELY know more than? All of us. If you’re so good, go get a job for a minor league club and lets see you work your way to the top, since you know so much more than everyone! It will be obvious when the first team you work for goes undefeated the first season, then they will promote you, until you are working as a scout for the Twins, then we will win every single world series until you get hired by the yankees, and then THEY will win every single game until you retire!! God, why don’t people just listen to YOU, Joe Blow!
Cuddyer has value to THIS team because of his relative versalitity and right-handed stick. There should be no talk of trading him.
Nathan has immense value to many teams and could fetch a hefty ransom (possibly a good starting pitcher AND a serviceable infielder). He had a great statistical year, but we all know he’s lost some zip on/confidence in his fastball, and isn’t the lights-out guy he has been in the past.
Put him out there, see what you can get for him. Dropping 12 mil in payroll could also afford you a guy like Chone Figgins, who I would LOVE to see in a Twins uniform.
In addition, closers are far more replaceable than you might think. You might not have a mainstay at the back end for the next six years, but you could find a guy to do it for a season or two at a time. Convert a starter, give a guy at AAA a shot, pick up a waiver claim…whatever!
agreed Nathan should be dangled.. GGG and others including Joe C have made the point that because of the rising cost of the current roster including the King’s ransom for Mauer there is nothing left for real upgrades again!
Twin’s have far too many holes to pay 11.5M for a closer that can’t cut it in the playoffs and has had a bad end of this regular season
UNLESS Pohlad’s allow a payroll closer to 100M keeping Nathan will stop Billy from making real upgrades
I hate this moderation tool. I’d love for someone to tell me why my last post is in moderation.
mww…If you have never had your comments moderated, then you have never said anything. Therefore, you have said something on these blogs, and $hit happens.
The reason why so many other GM’s and scouts around MLB continue to sing the praises of the “Twins Way” is because, deep down inside, they wish that they had the guts to approach a season with a modest payroll. Most teams, however, are trapped in the Yankee/Red Sox mindset of relying solely upon the immediate, high-priced free agent fix. Having said that, I would like to see the Twins make (2) key additions this off-season … #1 or #2 starting pitcher and a top-notch SS or 3B. I still think we can be very competitive without joining the arms race.
“…and that is diddly squat, and I admit it. In fact, I don’t know a damned thing.”
You mean you haven’t learned anything from these blogs, Doc? WTH!!!
The team looks good to me as it stands. Even after the free agents (Cabrera, Crede, Redmond, Pavano, Mahay) depart.
They could add some depth at catcher and shortstop, but no big names are needed. Replacing Buscher or Harris on the roster with a good backup shortstop would be okay. Punto and Mauer are often injured, so a little added depth wouldn’t hurt.
Neshek could be the choice over Bonser.
I expect something like this:
5 Starters: Slowey, Baker, Blackburn, Duensing, Perkins
7 Relievers: Nathan, Guerrier, Rauch, Crain, Mijares, Liriano, Bonser
2 Catchers: Mauer, Butera
6 Infielders: Morneau, Casilla, Tolbert, Punto, Harris, Buscher
5 Outfielders: Young, Span, Cuddyer, Kubel, Gomez
Good team as it stands.
““I’ll cast a far more critical eye on WHAT they spend money on than HOW MUCH money they spend.”
Usually the PoD if for saying something funny. I nominate this one - common sense deserves a mention every once in a while”
Then let’s further develop the common sense. If you stop at $80M for payroll, then chances are “WHAT” you’ll get in FA’s ain’t gonna be much — which is the running criticism of the Twins’ SOP.
Per Terry Ryan “Free Agency Doesn’t Work”. We’re doomed to blogging about FA wants/needs only to go into spring training screaming that, still, nothing has been done. But hopeful that we can sign someone that had their arm surgically reattached last year and hopes to return to 2001 All Star form. Geez the sweep still has me cranky…
Span
Casilla
Mauer
Morneau
Kubel
Cuddyer
Young
Tolbert
Punto
Solid lineup, with a nice balance of hitting for average, fielding, speed and homerun power. No extremes here. They would have diverse ways of winning. Excellent team equilibrium. There are few players that have complete skills, but as a team, they can maintain that delicate balance.
romer, agreed. If they have a hard ceiling at $80mm and don’t make any moves besides extending Mauer, that will be virtually all they get done.
I have higher expectations than that right now.
However, I reserve the right to change my expectations after I purchase the TwinsCentric book and educate myself further
Until they give a hint as to what the budget might be, most of this discussion is pie in the sky stuff.
I’m hoping for bringing back Pavano, or signing something similar, 1 infielder, and another incentive based contract for Crede. The back up catcher situation is only going to be a matter of about 500k betwwen morales or redmond or another vet, so its not worth racking the brain about. I think it can all get done for 80 million.
I highly doubt Mauers 2010 salary is going to change that much if he signs an extension. Thats why its called an extension….
“Then, offer Valencia, Liriano, Perkins, Bonsor, Buscher, and Revere to the Nats for Zimmerman”
3 broken pitchers, a positionless player without a bat, a third base prospect who is merely a fraction of Zimmerman, and Revere. Awesome. Nationals going to the World Series in 2010 now.
The position players the Twins have are just fine. Capable of scoring plenty of runs, while still defending the field.
It comes down to the pitching, but with Slowey, Perkins, Neshek amd Bonser returning, there’s not much to worry about.
Of course, the team still misses Santana and Garza. Those were big arms, and if the Twins could trade one of the sluggers (Morneau, Kubel, Mauer, Cuddyer) for a top starter, I would not be opposed. That’s what it would take. One of the sluggers. Maybe two.
I like Cuddy. But he can’t lay off Uncle Charlie…
I like the way Young came around at the end of the season. I also like the way Cuddy filled in for Morneau. Maybe DH Morneau a bit more in 2010? His end of season slumps are well documented. Maybe DHing on occasion would help.
They won’t be trading Cuddy - as he’s the only right handed hitter to protect a overly lefthanded line up. Span, Mauer, Morneau, Kubel.
Well, we’re not likely to hear from them any time soon what their payroll budget might be. Not exactly something they’d want to broadcast. The first player they went after who happened to be a Boras client would be trying to get every penny of the projected increase in budget.
lefty, it’s not that unusual for an extension to include a provision setting aside the remaining year’s agreed upon salary. Seems like I read Mauer is scheduled to get $11-12mm in 2010. Will anyone here really be shocked if it turns out he gets signed for about $20mm per year, including an increase in that range for 2010? I won’t be.
“Good team as it stands.”
And is this team actually going to score runs in the playoffs if the make it in 2010?
JC-
I wouldn’t be shocked either to see Mauer’s payout go higher in 2010 with a new contract.
The Mets ripped up the last year of Santana’s contract and gave him a raise with the extension they signed him to.
One of the biggest obstacles in signing Joe Mauer this off season is how many years he wants. I think they should offer him 7/150 but ten years is too long IMO.
Joe F., the Nats ain’t going anywhere with or w/o Zimmer and no way does the Nats have the money to sign him. The Nats’ financial situation is very, very bad. It’s tough to build a fan base when most of the people in your area are either transplants, transients, and/or Oriole, Philly, Braves, Bosox, Yanks, or Mets fans.
The Nats would be better off building its sorry farm system and having some talent develop along with Strasburg.
I agree they won’t trade Cuddyer. He provides great leadership. I highly doubt if they would trade any of the sluggers. I think they like the balance the team now has. So do I.
They already signed him. And why would they take that in a trade? Generally speaking, the more you offer in quantity, the less you offer in quality.
Frankly, BC, if I’m Mauer, I’m looking for nothing longer than a 5 year deal. That means, in about 4 years I’m still young enough to get another “market rate” pay day OR move to another team as a FA in 5 years if I determine the Twins are not going to be competitive for the last few years of my career.
If he shoots for a 7-10 year deal, he’s locked in to the Twins for pretty much the rest of his career regardless of what their philosophy becomes, after the newness of Target Field rubs off, with regard to fielding a competitive team.
Joe Mauer is in no rush to sign. I think he will test the free agent market. This will help to determine his value. He can always sign with the Twins, if they are willing to amass for him something equivalent to a king’s ransom.
People in Minnesota should consider that keeping Joe one more year and then letting him sign elsewhere, may be the best thing for the team. They could use the money they save for signing bonuses for top prospects.
Good point JC signing a shorter contract for more money would be the smart move for Mauer.
The payroll will swell to 78 million?
Are you kidding ? The Twins are going to draw 3 million fans and you say the payroll is going to SWELL !!!!
Joe, if you want to be a mouth piece for the Twins, join their marketing department
I think someone has hijacked Bunting Twins Moniker or something worse!
the nats pay zimmerman $9M a year. they can’t afford it. the nats drew only 2.35M the first year of the new stadium (69% capacity) and less than $2m last year. The Twins should make an offer; the biggest obstacle is that Zimmerman is a Virginian.
Bunting
The Twins FO needs to consider the financial impact of losing a player like Joe Mauer (see clevelands TV ratings above) losing him will cost the franchise more then the money they would save by trading him.
6 years/$137.5M (2008-13)
That is Johan Santana’s contract. Joe will certainly command a higher price than that old contract.
10 years/$275M - Alex Rodriguez
7 years/$161M - CC Sabathia
8yrs/$180 Mark Texiera
Joe deserves $200M.
Mets really got a bargain with Johan.
Maybe not, Bunting Twin, in 2010, we’ll see how he recovers from his injuries.
BC of ND,
People have short memories. The Twins have some good catching prospects.
Look what happened when the Twins lost Puckett. The first season without Puck, they set a team record for runs scored.
You are correct, Joe the First. In baseball things can change quickly.
I think it will take something similar to that Texiera # to get it done…and that will be a pretty fair deal for both sides.
That 2-16 record is just a little misleading. We are 5-16 in our last 21 but 5-18 is probably the record you should be using in this arguement since that includes the entire 2002 playoffs.
Even that is extremely misleading since this Twins team isn’t really all that much like the 2002 team so where is the relevance? In fact, no team is like any other team year to year.
Keep in mind that in the playoffs we are always playing someone really good so the possibility of being swept is always there. We were favored only in 2006 but give some credit to the A’s. They simply played well. We could easily have beat the Yankees in the 2 games but things didnt go our way. For all the analysis and high level meetings and money spent on development and free agents it is still baseball and the results might have been entirely different if we had just played them a week earlier or later. Yes, it helped that the Yankees had the most talent but they always have the most talent and they don’t always win.
Every year is different and as far as I am concerned, if we make the playoffs next year we won’t be 2-16 in our last 18 games. We will be 0-0. Just make the playoffs and anything can happen. Do you really beleive that Nathan would go saveless if given more opportunities?
Interesting stuff today. In one sense, though, the “do we trade Nathan?” debate is a little artificial. For nearly everyone on the roster, the question isn’t so much whether they should be traded, but what comes back in return. Imo, the only untouchable guys are Mauer, Morneau, and Cuddyer. Caveat: Cuddyer is tradeable if right-handed power comes back in return.
“The Twins have some good catching prospects.”
If the Twins have more catching prospects who are capable of winning three batting titles and playing gold glove defense then they should be trading them for Hanley Ramirez.
Joe Mauer is by far the best player on the team and probably the best player in baseball.
I’d hate to lose Joe, but I’m realistic. Keeping him would be a huge burden on the team as far as money goes. One player can’t take up that much payroll on a small town, small budget team.
Catchers get hurt easy. Remember Ray Fosse? One play and the guy was all but finished. Insurance companies are only covering 2-3 years of a players contract now. The Pohlads aren’t going to risk 5-6 years of a huge contract. It could practically destroy the organization. It’s just not in the cards for the Twins to keep Joe.
romer, you asked me at 2:16: “”You mean you haven’t learned anything from these blogs, Doc? WTH!!!”"
Yes I have, romer. And all of it is suspect at best.
BC of ND,
Rest assured, there is no catcher in the Twins organization other than Mauer, who will ever win a batting title. Ha.
Truth is, the Twins can win as a team without batting titles. It’s a great personal achievement, but it’s not that big of an impact on the number of games a team win.
Think team rather than individual star, and things look a lot brighter. There isn’t any single player on the team that I would worry one minute about losing.
Why would the Twins trade Nathan? They are only committed to paying him only $22.5 mil over the next two seasons. Dirt cheap by today’s standards. Affordable by Twins standards. Good bang for the buck, so to speak. The perfect Twin.
“Catchers get hurt easy.” as opposed to pitchers? remember joe mays, liriano, slowey, neshek, bonser …….
cost benefit analysis of trading nathan at 11.25m for some help and taking a chance with a new cheaper closer or not having the money to resign mauer or improve the team thru free agents. what is the best option? or do they have enough money without dumping some salary?
of course a big if is could they get anything for him?
Reusse came up with the idea of trading Nathan. He also wants Luke Hughes and Danny Valencia to compete for third base in spring. The Twins will look at Valencia in spring, but Luke Hughes will never be a regular, starting third baseman in the major leagues. Never.
I hope the Twins can sign some new blood this year but I don’t want them to pull a Kenny Williams and sign someone with a big salary just to make it look like they’re doing something. Lots of bad contracts out there like Rios, Silva, Zito and the list goes on and on. That being said, I hope they will bring Redmond back as a “coach” and not a player since I think we gave up a roster spot just to have him in the mix. Also, it just looks like Gomez and Casilla need alot of time at AAA so they can play everyday and maybe hone their skills - look at what it did for Denard Span to be down there an extra year - he’s great!
“of course a big if is could they get anything for him?”
Pitching in the majors is so sparse that teams would love to have Nathan and his cheap contract. I’ll bet almost every team in baseball would like Nathan. Unless they saw a closer conflict, with the closer they have.
Wow, Criminalities gets CPoD, or coherent post of the day.
“The Twins should make an offer; the biggest obstacle is that Zimmerman is a Virginian.”
There is a Virginia, Minnesota.
Can I have the stupid post of the day award?
No, Bunting Twins, I always reserve that for myself. Today, I earned it IRO my trade-for-Zimmerman comments. I don’t care, though, at least approach the Nats. You know, there are teams in the MLB pooer than the Twins. And, yes, Santa Clause, there is a Virginia in MN; it’s warm and mild, just like Zimmy’s ole Virginia home.
Of course, that s/b Claus, not clause, as in not a clause in a contract.
“And, yes, Santa Clause, there is a Virginia”
Ha!!
Didn’t the StP Pioneer Press report a few weeks ago that Mauer was looking for $17M a year for 10 years?
“You know, there are teams in the MLB pooer than the Twins.”
The Yankees are pooer or is it poopier?
I vote for poopier, but Doc Don would vote for $hittier.
Romer, if indeed it were true, then the Twins should sign Mauer to an extension today.
crim-
Nice post and while the players on the 2009 team are different than the 2002 team, as I have mentioned before there is a constant which bridges all the playoff teams-Gardy and his staff (minus Al Newman and Liddle not being there the whole time).
For whatever reason, Gardy just can’t get his players over the hump. The bats slump (which started in the 2002 ALCS) and the guys looked scared against the Yankees.
In 2006 the A’s might have played well, but with team the Twins had (MVP, Cy Young, batting champ) there is no way the Twins should have been swept. Plus keep in mind the A’s played pretty bad against Detroit in the ALCS (their offense seemed to use the same bats the Twins did in the ALDS that year).
I like Gardy-but he might only be good enough to get the Twins to the party, but can’t get them to dance. At what point will Twins leadership step up and do what it takes to bring home another World Series title? And I do realize the Twins don’t spend the most or have the best talent, but something has to give!
I was thinking $90 mil for 5 years would be a good offer. I like Mauer and hope he stays but I also liked Santana and find that Twins have gone to the final game 2 years in a row without him. We traded Viola and got the pieces for a championship. Dallas traded Walker and got the pieces for a few championships. If we could get Handley Ramirez for either of those guys I would be very tempted. Lester and Pedroia for Mauer would also work. If we can’t sign him and it comes down to getting a Santana type return package then just play him for bargain prices his final year and let him go. I really like him but as said before, he could go down to injury any time and then we are stuck.
I love the “Minnie and Paul” sign, but unless they get some offensive help to go along with Mauer and Morneau, I don’t see that sign lighting up with them shaking hands often!
Shaun, did Gardy tell Torii to turn a single into a HR? Did Leyland tell Rayburn to turn Cuddy’s single into a triple?
Maybe the Yanks are just that much better and they know it, so, just maybe, that might make the Yanks feel a bit more confident than the Twins, whether the manager is Giradi or Bozo the Clown.
To me, only Nathan looked nervous. And ARod hit a 94 mph FB with a bit of movement. Power vs. power. Does ARod hit it everytime? Who knows?
It was a good series, even the first game, because the Twins fought.
FIRE THE COACHING STAFF AND TRADE NATHAN FOR TWO GOOD PITCHERS!
Sarge, you don’t think that Kubel, Cuddy, and Span provide such support?
Mauer’s not going anywhere, and he shouldn’t be going anywhere. Take that in and let it digest.
2006 was the only playoff in year in which the Twins lost to an inferior team. What also has to be remembered, though, is that year Liriano was huge part of the Twins’s regular season success and he was obviously not part of the playoff roster. Can Gardy make goofy in game decisions? Yup. Is it his fault the Yankees and Angels have had superior rosters the last decade? Nope. If Girardi managed the Twins and Gardenhire managed the Yankees, does anyone really think the outcome of the season would have been different? That’s not a rhetorical question. I just think Gardy didn’t have the luxury of having a guy with 29 HR hitting 8th for him.
Catchers get hurt often remember Ray Fosse??? Bob Boone, Fisk, Piazza, Sundberg, Pudge, Parrish, Posada, Varitek shoulid I keep going…
“”"”"Joe the First says:
October 15th, 2009 at 4:11 pm
I vote for poopier, but Doc Don would vote for $hittier.”"”"”
YESSSSS!!!!!! PoD for sure, Chief!
Very true, H. Jimenez, but that’s a risk with any FA, but, yes, more of a risk with pitchers and catchers.
“And ARod hit a 94 mph FB with a bit of movement. Power vs. power. Does ARod hit it everytime? Who knows?”
exactly. and teixeira’s home run seemed to hit the top of the fence. had it stayed in the park as a double … maybe a whole different ballgame.
i don’t believe the twins won in ‘87 and ‘91 because tom kelly was a superior postseason tactician or supreme motivator. many things just happened to go the twins way those two years …
if dave roberts had been caught stealing against the yanks in 2004, the red sox might still be cursing the curse.
Who knows is right? What if they dont miss the HBP with Inge do the Twins still win that game?
As for Gomez, this team was in the top 5 or so in runs socred, but 12th of 14 teams in runs allowed by starters. They don’t need gomez or even Young to hit, they need Span, Gomez, x in the outfield to prevent more runs (assuming M&M&S&K&C continue to hit). If they just had an average/decent 3B and one of 2B/SS, they can have Gomez’s bat, as long as they have his D. People vastly underestimate what good fielding can do for ERA. Just look at TX and Seattle for indications of how improving your D can help your pitchers’ ERA.
well, it isn’t that paragraph that still has my post in moderation….
Mickey Mental,
IRO your 4:35 pm post. Very much on point, in fact, you could’ve written Blyleven’s article on MSNBC sports, dated today. This exactly was his point and he went through several examples in an article discussing why free agency makes it hard to repeat as WS champs and why some teams won (such as 87 and 91) when it seems the teams weren’t the best in MLB.
Just think of all of the “if’s” in life……… The most important is, IF Santa Claus did not have popcorn balls, he and Mrs. Claus would have had children.
Houston J.
The Inge should’ve-been-a-HBP is a joke. As Blyleven pointed out during the last Det./Twins 4-game series in Det., parts of some players’ uniforms actually flap into the strike zone as the batters swing.
The rule is that it’s the ump discretion to award a base. The discretion is based upon whether or not the player tried or could’ve avoided being hit and also, it can be based upon whether or not it’s a proper uniform.
While ARod isn’t my standard for much of anything, I believe that MLB should require each player to wear his uniform as does ARod; that is, stirrups pulled up to just below the knee and the uniform form-fitting.
This wear-your-own-thing has to be put to an end. Why do they call them uniforms if everyone looks different in the same uniform? This is one time uniformity would be a good thing.
Doc Don,
But they were buttered and tasty.
problem was, Joe 1st…they were microwaved. OUCH!!!!!!
Wearing a xxxl jersey is a joke.(unless your Prince Fielder) The ump said it didnt hit him the call was not based on his discretion rather the ump did not see it hit Inge’s XXXL jersey..
If he would have seen it hit guaranteed he would have called a HBP -he would have been to chicken bleep to pull out the discretionary card- lets not kid our selves..
The Pohlads make decisions not just based upon on-the-field product, but as a business as a whole. Not just; “will this player help us win games”; but; “will this player help the team as a whole”.
My point is…Joe Mauer is not just a Catcher on the team. Joe Mauer is a Minnesota Icon.
So, signing Joe Mauer, the greatest Catcher in the game today, isn’t just about winning games. It is about what he means to the team and to the fan base of Minnesota. He sells tickets. He makes people turn on their TV’s. He sells advertisement.
I believe some magazine out there put his “worth” to the Minnesota Twins at approximately $35 million a year. Not signing him would be a travesty to the teams worth, on and off the field.
What the Twins need to think about doing is getting creative with Joe Mauer while giving him a lifetime contract. Not life of his playing career, but his lifetime. Usually a 10 year contract is not wise, but signing Joe to a career contract and post career contract is definitely in order. Joe Mauer needs to be attached to this team for life like no player in the history of Major League Baseball.
I strongly advocate a contract extension in excess of 10 years, with options for what Mauer’s role could be with the Minnesota Twins for when he chooses to retire.
Houston, TX,
I know, but my point was that under a strict interpretation of the rules, there’s no way it would’ve or should’ve been a legitimate HBP had it so been called a HBP by the ump.
Doc Don, that’s sad, even Santa has gone high tech. What next? GPS?
I agree Joe the 1st!
“Very much on point, in fact, you could’ve written Blyleven’s article on MSNBC sports, dated today. This exactly was his point and he went through several examples in an article discussing why free agency makes it hard to repeat as WS champs and why some teams won (such as 87 and 91) when it seems the teams weren’t the best in MLB.”
well, maybe blyleven is reading these blogs. because i made a similar point a few days ago. [i don’t really believe that …]
Joe 1st, Santa doesn’t need GPS guidance. All he needs to do is read the blogs and he will know all he needs.
Mac Load:
Exactly, it’s a perfect synchronization of business and team interests. And yes, please sign him forever.
Only catcher to have the highest BA in the MLB.
First C to win the BT in the AL.
This year, highest ever BA for a C.
Don’t create another disgusting and tragic Killebrew fiasco. Mauer s/b a Twin for life. Over Mauer’s life, it’ll more than payoff for the Twins.
Hilarious, Joe the First. Precious, in fact.
Joe and Houston, there are literally thousands of plays like that during the season. No way do they even out. Every borderline ball or strike called during the year has an effect on the at bat which has an effect on the game. I felt like during the year more went against the Twins. I don’t feel that way every year probably don’t recognize the all the ones that go our way, but the big calls I can think of.
1. Baltimore playing full game in the rain which probably should have been called off. I don’t remember all the specifics but I know it was a bad decision and a bad result for us.
2. Redmond tag at home. I don’t recall what game it was he clearly tagged the guy feet from the plate and the guy was called safe. Was a real difference maker.
3. Cuddyer safe at home in the Oakland game. We may or may not have won it if the right call was made but it shouldn’t have ended there.
4. Inge hit by ball. I thought there was another controversail call that game that went against us but that was a big one that went for us.
5. Mauer double against New York. We likely socre one at least. Tex’s homer ties it. Odds would still be against us but who knows?
3 and 4 concern plays at the plate. Is it just me or were the Twins real bad at that this year. I feel like head first slides to the outside of the plate would have gotten us several more runs and a few more runs. I remember we used to be good at this with Koske and Guzman making great slides to score. Several times Cuddyer tried taking out the catcher instead with bad results and Mauer and Young tried scoring a couple times with weak hook slides into the catcher’s block. I know head first slides have a slightly higher chance of injury but less so than plowing into a catcher. Those were all extremely important runs at the time also.
Likewise Redmonnd reaches out for the ball instead of letting it come to him and he loses time trying to make a long tag. I can’t believe a veteran like he is still does that.
Ok, I just reread that post and am not even going to bother to make all the corrections needed. I apologize. I would do better just writing on Word and copying to here but I didn’t realize I was gonna have such a long post when I started it.
Doc Don,
Great, so here’s my revised 2010 Twins lineup (don’t forget me Santa):
Ichiro RF
Ramirez SS
Mauer C
Pujols DH/1B
Morneau 1B/DH
ARod 3B
Pedroia 2B
Bay LF
Torii CF
CC Sabathia
Halladay
Lackey
Verlander
Santana (if truly healthy)
Nathan
Mariano
Papelbon
Fuentes
Bell
Valverde
FRod
Some Lefty
V. Martinez
Jeter
Abreau
Not really, Santa; I don’t much like FA. A player should have to play 10 (or at least 
in the bigs before being eligible for FA and no team s/b allowed to sign more than one Class A FA in any year.
Substitute Chamberlain and Hughes for CC and Burnett and some unknown for Teixeira and whaddya have? A team not too much better than the rest of the teams in the AL.
WTH (what the heck)? That smiley face s/b “8 years.”
Joe, its COMPLEMENTARY pieces, not complimentary pieces, in this case
its complementing what they already have, its not giving it praise
Org.Kev.
There are a lot of places in Subic Bay where you’ll find “pieces” that are both complementary to your needs and deserving of compliments.
“Criminilities says:
October 15th, 2009 at 5:19 pm
Ok, I just reread that post and am not even going to bother to make all the corrections needed.”
BFD, no apology needed, I knew what you meant on your post just before this.
“…and the guys looked scared against the Yankees.”
Whoa.
Did OC look scared? Kubel? They didn’t have a good series. Tolbert didn’t look scared.
The rest of them hit over .400 — except for the young players, Young & Gomez & Morales.
Don’t know if Young was scared, but I’ll give you Gomez and Morales. Those two were the only ones who were scared as far as I know.
Twitchy always looks scared.
You’re right, Romer. You know who looked scared in game 1? The Yankee fans in the 9th inning when the Twins got two on with two out against the suppposedly perfect and unflappable Marino. And for those who saw it on TV, was Mariano breaking a sweat? The Twins didn’t look scared then.
And Go-Go doesn’t look scared, he’s too confused and lost to be so.
Doc Don,
I just spent 5 minutes trying to find poster BFD. Then it dawned on me that it’s another one of them there funny abbreviations.
You learn fast, Joe. My apologies, I maybe should have said the whole thing first, and then been able to abbreviate after that. I wonder if that would have cleared moderation?
NP, NBFD, DD.
SOSDD.
SOS?
$hit on a shingle?
DD = Doc Don?
Whatever happened to Thrylos 98?
SOSDD = Same Old $hit Different Day…… And no idea where thrylos is. How about Ben?
Tomorrow people refer to as TGIF. I like today… $HIT…. Sure Happy It’s Thursday.
I was out most of the time from the end of June until the playoffs. About when was T98’s last post?
I really don’t remember, Joe 1st. But from what I understand, he has a blog or website called tenthinningstretch.com I think.
Yea, I been to his site a few times, Doc Don. I was just curious.
i’m guessing thrylos has been in isolation, running and re-running his calculations in an effort to prove that cuddyer had a terrible season.
my hunch on ben is that he sat on a foam finger and had to have surgery to get it removed.
About trading Cuddyer, his BA with RISP this year was a little low for his position but his 3 year average is .299 and an OPS of .898. Compare that to, say, Alex Rodriguez. His 3 year BA/RISP average is .303 with an OPS of .982. Cuddy had slightly higher stats than A-Rod did this year.
So the point, as always, is, who replaces Cuddy if he’s traded? Kubel’s numbers are consistently lower with RISP. Young does better, but his fielding is atrocious. And don’t even get me started on Gomez…he really needs a year of seasoning in Rochester.
“mickey mental says:
October 15th, 2009 at 7:02 pm
my hunch on ben is that he sat on a foam finger and had to have surgery to get it removed.”
And while they were at it, they cut that cord that connected his optic nerve with his rectal cavity, and therefore hopefully got rid of his $hitty outlook on life and everyone here on the blogs.
Thrylos is still around from time to time.
Back to normal.
Sheesh, I used a different moniker “REHIRE VAVRA & GARDY!!!!!!!!” and it went into moderation and never made it out. Must be some totalitarian, authoritarian freak monitoring the sites tonight. I had the some problem with two of my posts IRO the M. Bachmann story.
Welcome to the big time, Joe 1st!
Tried it again and it went into moderation. Man, this is enough with the control freaks; time to take some quality time away from the Red Star Stribe. This and the Bachmann thing are too much. Thanks, Stribe, you just waved goodbye to me buying the premium Vike site for $5.99. I don’t support totalitarian, authoritarian control freaks.
Third base, a number one starter and no merry-go-round in the outfield are the biggest concerns moving forward. Cut ties with Perkins, he has showed that he is only looking out for himself. Slowey, Bonser, and Neshek could be just as valuable as 3 free agent signings, and the Twins know what those are earning next year. Blalock is available in FA, but can he play 3B anymore? Hopefully the FO spends wisely and gets return on the investments.
General Manager Bill Smith and his top advisers will review everything with Manager Ron Gardenhire, along with managers, coaches, instructors and scouts from throughout the system. They’ll discuss the organization’s strengths and weaknesses, and hone their offseason strategy.
Yeah? And what if any of them are the weaknesses???
“Yeah? And what if any of them are the weaknesses???”
that one’s easy: bloggers will be sure to let them know.
“Thanks, Stribe, you just waved goodbye to me…”
Some of the most entertaining times on the Strib blogs used to come when people changed their monikers and did the comedy thing. I used “Dr Freud” a couple times; and others used Sid Hartman, etc. etc.
But the flip side of that coin came when the sadists could dissolve into fascistic hatred with their posts merely by changing their ID — and they’d also cop others’ ID’s and accomplish character assassination.
So the Strib had to crack down: one-computer-one-ID, I presume. They also chose to tame it down with the profanity and other “hot” words to try and regain civility.
So there’s your status quo. The 10% who are pricks ruin it for the 90% of the rest of us.
Don’t know for sure if there’s any viable alternative.
“…that connected his optic nerve with his rectal cavity…”
Well there’s your concise metaphor of the year.
Automatic and instantaneous hatred by so-called fans of the Twins is never impressive — and after the umpteenth time is akin to your damned dog barking at birds.
joe the first,
blyleven’s msnbc essay was fun to read. thanks for the tip.
There is absolutely no scenario that I can see the Twins being able to compete with the Yankee, Red Sox or Angels. I hope they sign Maurer. But it will not be enough to do anymore then we did this year. To many holes. And Maurer’s contract will eat away at any additional revenue that Twins thought they might have had with Target Field. That was just a pipe dream anyway. To think we could compete with the elites would take a major investment by the Pohlads besides Maurer. An Orlando Hudson to fill 2nd base and bat second. A trade or signing of a natural #1 type pitcher. Hardin would be good. The hope that Valencia will be ready by opening day. Or some surprise like Ben Revere making the huge jump from A ball and allowing us to send Gomez to AAA where he belongs.
It’s not uncommon for people in many occupations and walks of life in the spotlight to be appreciated only by those far enough removed from the situation to be able to clearly see the forest for the trees. So it is with the gross under-appreciation for the Twins and their organization in Minnesota. Especially, by the “all knowing bloggers.
Jerry,
We are bloggers, and we have passion for the game, and for this team, and because we disagree with management, and disagree with each other on a lot of things doesn’t mean that we don’t know what we are talking about as a collective.
I have seen many people on here talk about how Punto is a great glove man… and low and behold he’s on Web Gems once a week. We have also talked about how he can’t hit his weight, and low and behold he is the 2nd worst hitter in the last 67 years of Major league baseball excluding pitchers… second to Ivan DeJesus formerly of the Cubs and Phillies.
We have discussed Why Scott Ullger was a lousy hitting coach, and strangely the twins moved him. Now that it’s pretty apparent that he’s a lousy 3rd base coach I’m sure the Twins will eventually notice this too.
I know of at least 20 people on here that were clamoring for Orlando Cabrera in the offseason… we picked him up in the season and look we made the playoffs.
I know a lot of people on here who have sworn that letting Torii Hunter go was a terrible thing and that he was only getting better, and he has had two very good seasons in Cali.
I also had 4 people that I know of on here that told me I was wrong when I said that Denard Span had less talent than an unflushed toilet… I was not only dead wrong, and they were right, but Span is probably my 3rd favorite player on the team.
People admit when they are wrong from time to time on here… which is far more often than Special Needs Bill Smith has!
So while you ask us to take a step back… I ask that you take your head out, and realize that without fans the newspaper, and sports go by the way side in a hurry. Basically if we don’t know anything, and you are here blogging you are the only one that is fulfilling your own prophesy pal
Expression451 says: “without fans the newspaper, and sports go by the way side in a hurry.”
That is the best expression of why spectator sports exists that I’ve read in a long time. If it wasn’t for fans who are passionate about the games, the athletes would be playing intramural games with only their girl friends and their parents watching.
We won’t always agree about how the game is played but we care enough to have an opinion.
Newspapers, on the other hand, may be going by the wayside regardless of anyone’s passion.
Their ratings have to be off: I watched pert-near every single game, yet nobody ever asked me what I was watching. That makes it 108,001 people.
Expression: You realize that there’s enough people on the Stribs clamoring for one thing or another that eventually SOMEBODY will get their way.
It’s that whole “throw enough crap at the wall” thing.
The Pohlads can put a moratorium on all contributions to politicians (sheesh, I couldn’t believe it when I read that they’re big-time, major-league contributors to Demoncrats (not a misspelling).
time to take some quality time away from the Red Star Stribe.
You know, there’s more than enough venom spewed around here without somebody having to troll for political arguments…
I was hoping Joe or Len3 would have some AFL coverage for us but nooooooooooooo.
BC, I’m pretty sure that is not up to them. They didn’t decide to eliminate coverage of the minor league system two years ago or so (and then have some of it come back). I don’t think the editorial staff thinks covering the minors does much for their readership, but maybe I’m wrong. Maybe there is some other reason.
“You know, there’s more than enough venom spewed around here without somebody having to troll for political arguments…”
same point was made a couple days ago, t. poster’s response was a repost and additional baiting posts.
next step: ignore.
I understand mike i guess i’m just having some baseball DT’s. I did get some stuff off of Seth’s site though. I’m curious as to how well Tosoni does.
“Some readers hammer us for not being more critical of the Twins’ approach, but I think it’s because the Star Tribune’s baseball coverage brings with it decades of experience and a perspective that spans MLB.”
But on the other hand Joe, you need to stop being an apologist for this ballclub.
The citizens of Minnesota, thru its legislature, took a HUGE step in building a new stadium. You give me one link that shows the Twins stating that all they’d be able to do with the new revenues (because of salary inflation) is to keep the current roster intact. Thus, your statement that “they better keep Mauer and the rest of their core intact, while finding the right complementary pieces” is unacceptable and, as long as you keep parroting it, you may as well move over to the Twins marketing dept.
The Twins should sign that 6-year old balloon boy. I hear he has a nasty floater..
I was of the understand that the STATE did not build the Twins a new stadium. I thought there was a county tax that was paying for part of the stadium.
On another note I can not believe that the Yankees built such a horrible stadium. It might rain out their game tonight. Why wouldn’t they have a roof there. Someone from South Dakota could drive there and they should be guaranteed that they not miss a game.
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/events/winterleagues/league.jsp?league=afl
some fall league info.
Joe 1st and I have had some fun discussions, some disagreements in some discussions, some agreements in some discussions. The point is this, Joe 1st has never resorted to calling me names, nor have I to him, as putdowns that some have here. I respect his opinions and comments, as I am sure he does mine. Neither he nor I nor anyone else deserves to be called names of a negative nature, just because we talk openly about the Twins. We, Joe and I, et al, like to have fun here and let’s please keep civility the ruling factor. Thank you…. 10-4 over and out.
But on the other hand Joe, you need to stop being an apologist for this ballclub.
As opposed to what? Somebody who complains about the club regardless of what they do?
$152 mil is coming from the Twins. The rest is being paid for by the state through a sales tax. Ultimately, I think the state still owns the park and the Twins have a 30 year lease on it.
Yes, there should be more revenue but the Twins still have to pay off their $152 mil, also. It will cost a lot to keep the core intact.
I am one fan that likes the way the Twins have built this team. I don’t agree with their every move but I like that they signed Gibson and Sano and that ain’t cheap.
Anyone shed light on why our 2 time minor league player of the year is still in A Ball? I would think getting that award twice would merit getting a chance in the Show. Just asking.
Can the Twins FO just admit they made mistakes in trading for Delmon and Gomez..?? Just get over the pride thing and trade them this offseason while there is maybe some remaining trade value.
“”Criminilities says:
October 16th, 2009 at 12:18 pm
$152 mil is coming from the Twins. The rest is being paid for by the state through a sales tax.”"
Crim…that is not true…it is NOT a state sales tax… It is a Metro Area sales tax. Not one penny of what I spend for items that are subject to sales tax goes to the Twins Stadium, unless I buy that item in the Metro Area.
Another year of budget-ball. Hooray.
The Twins 2007 payroll was the highest in team history. With a brand-spanking new stadium, suites and concession revenues included, it should be expected that they at least spend as much as they did in 2007.
4 player trade. How about instead of receiving 4 stiffs, we trade them this time. Gomez, Young, Liriano and Perkins for one decent player/prospect.
Crim, your question about Revere is a good one. He is 21 years old and ready for a jump to the next level, maybe 2, to prove himself. See:
Criminilities,
“Anyone shed light on why our 2 time minor league player of the year is still in A Ball? I would think getting that award twice would merit getting a chance in the Show.”
I’m with ya. I was MVP 2 years running in a softball league 18/19 years ago. I really thought I deserved to be paid. And get a minor league contract.
But…no dice.
Thanks for the link gobble I wonder if they will broadcast any games on the MLB network. It would be interesting to watch some of the Twins players go against Strasburg.
Criminilities
When you find out ask them why he can’t be converted back into a 2b as well.
BC,
Was he drafted as a 2B? Gotta believe that as devoid as our system is of rated MI’ers he had to have been judged a “no way” for that.
“$152 mil is coming from the Twins.”
~Dang, maybe they could trade the ballpark for Yohan Santana, although I’m not sure his arm will hold up for 30 years.
That Sales tax is not metro, it’s Hennipen County specific. Our great Gov. T-Paw and ouor great legislature made sure it was only appied in a single county.
Thanks Dr, but that was actually the link that prompted my question.
I wasn’t trying to mislead anyone. I said through a sales tax but I know that is vague. It is assessed on Hennepin County but I assumed it was collected by the state.
I am excited to see how this last draft and Sano progress through the system. BTW, I really liked the idea of a prior post that says a team should be limited to 1 A free agent per year. I like a salary cap better but that would be a move in the right direction. I am always optimistic about the Twins chances in the playoffs but the Yankees being able to add Sabbathia, Burnett and Texeira in one offseason seems like overkill to me.
In all honesty, John C… It was the Hennepin County Board that voted that in, not the legislature. Once voted in by the county, it was approved by TPaw and the Leg.
Paul
It’s my understanding that he played 2b in HS. I’ve heard that they judged him as “no way” as well but I’ve not heard a logical explanation why.
Little disappointing to see Joe C. drink the kool aid then pass it off as those wno know MLB as opposed to us knucklehead fans (many of us which are paying for the stadium in our taxes under the promise of using additional revenue for players). Its not as complex as Joe C. might make it. Of course spending money in and of itself does not a better team make, you have to be wise, and for that, I give the Twins historical credit. However, if you could combine that wise spending of money with a bigger pool of money to spend (yes, up to and maybe over 100M) it could not only impress Mauer the Twins mean business, but get the Twins to a WS. 100MM is not unreasonable given the big jump of revenue they will get, and the increased market value of the team due to the new stadium.
by the way, 90 mill for 5 years is not even on the same planet as what it will take to get Mauer. Torii signed for that 2 years ago and he is not on the same planet as Mauer. I figure Mauer will cost something like 150M for 7 years
Mickey Mantle,
So you saw my post (rather long) under a different moniker?
Sincerely,
REHIRE VAVRA & GARDY!!!!!!!!!!!!
(Not Joe the First)
KIST (past tense for KISS, but means Keep It Simple Twins).
1. Extend Mauer’s contract this season.
2. Re-sign: Pavano, Cabrera, Rausch, & Mahay.
3. Start DY
4. Get a good 3B
5. Get one FA SP.
That’s it; no big changes.
joe the first, that’s actually a pretty dang good list.
“Of course spending money in and of itself does not a better team make, you have to be wise, and for that, I give the Twins historical credit….”
partly true but the twins have spent money over the years, mike lamb, tony batista, rondell white, nick punto …… but mostly on the lower level free agents that have not worked out for the most part and ended up a waste of money. maybe the wise thing would be to spend on fewer players but players of a higher quality that would have a better chance of success.
Get a good 3B?
It’s not that easy. Twins have been trying the band-aid approach to third base for the last 5 seasons.
Joe the,
It might very well be that simple, but we the fans need to have reason to post 160-200 comments per day from now until spring training.
A plan as simple as yours mitigates our ability to do so.
Not So Original Kevin, your moniker fits you to a “T”. And 18,000 Rubes, you are Kevin’s hero as the poster child for the Fans Without Perspective Fan Club.
Those with perspective have pointed out many examples proving that this organization is investing aggressively in players and player development. Sano, Gibson, and Kepler come to mind, but you will certainly choose to ignore the evidence, won’t you? Many of us are optimistic because we see real signs, real activity, by this team. Some of you will choose blind pessimism. Good luck with that, boys.
DrDon (who I respect) and Crim are both wrong. It is neither a state sales tax nor a metro sales tax. It is a sales tax on Hennepin County alone. The reason the state got involved was because there was a Minnesota statute which said a county or locality could not assess a sales tax without a referendum of the citizens of that locality. The state needed to grant a waiver on that statute, so Hennepoin County could in fact levy a sales tax without a referendum, because they knew if there was a referendum, it would have failed miserably. What is ironic is that legislators from outside Hennepin County voted for this waiver and the legislators from Hennepin County voted against it. So in one of the biggest con jobs this state has ever had, the legislators from OUTSIDE Hennepin County imposed a tax on the citizens of Hennepin Count.
I went to the hearings. One legislator from Edina suggested the sales tax be imposed on the whole state, then a retractable dome could be put on the stadium. However, the legislators from outside Hennepin County who were all too happy to effectively vote on a tax for Hennepin County wanted no part of a tax on their own constituents. Now, many of the outside Minnesotans whine why there is no retractable roof, because now they cannoot count on a game being played. Yet, those same outstate legislators did not want to have a tax on their own people, just Hennepin County.
Having said all that, the legislature passed the waiver, the “its all about me” governor Pawlenty signed it (and I am GOP) and the stadium is built. The whole time, the promise, both implicit and explicit was with this stadium, we could now keep and attain players to be competitive. I always knew it would always be hard anyway, becuase you cannot keep up with the Yankees, Red Sox TV contracts, but the state was suckered in. So now, Pohlads, go out and do a 100 mill payroll, and yes, not just to spend money, but do it smart. You owe it to Twins fans who live and spend money in Hennepin County
GGG, I think you’re going to get your wish of fewer FA signings, and higher quality signings. Two reasons: we need fewer players, and we have more dollars. This was not the case when Batista and Rondell were signed in desperation. The farm system is re-stocked and ready to bear abundant fruit within two years, too.
Yea, bird of prey, 70 mill payroll in these times is a real demonstration of committment. Go out and sign Mauer, and get the supporting cast to convince Mauer to sign, and I might believe the Twins management means business. Until then, they have conned us.
Dr Don, right, the Hennepin County Board did approve the tax. The legislature did not approve it. They simply passed a waiver on the statute requiring a citizen referendum. So basically the law was you need a referendum unless we decide you dont need it. And Pawlenty (and I am a GOPer who cannot stand the guy) bellied up and signed a waiver, when as a legislator, he was for the wavier., he does what is convenient for his political career
bop, all three examples you gave were from this year. Maybe they have changed their ways, but there wasn’t much evidence of that until this year. Also, all three of those, while decent investments, pale compared to signing a FA in his prime earning year, or trading for a guy in his prime earning years.
that said, i think there is hope and reason to believe that times are changing….and I hope that Joe is wrong, and that they do step up and fill their holes with legit players in their prime.
Not So Orgasmic Kevin,
However fair or unfair of the MN legislature to ‘gang up’ on Henpecked County, this is an aspect of a republican form of gov’t., as opposed to a pure democracy and proportional representative forms of gov’t.
So, it’s something quite typical for a republican form of gov’t., although, ironically, one plus for this form of gov’t is that if provides to minorities protection against the tyranny of a majority.
Case in point: The Calif. vote on same-sex marriage: Under the referendum (a form of pure democracy) the electorate voted against same sex marriage. However, if the vote were broken down by legislative districts and each representative voted as did the respective constituients, then same-sex marriage would’ve passed, because a majority of the legislative districts voted for SS marriage. It’s just that in three heavily-populated districts, the populat vote went overwhelming against SS marriage.
For the record, the above is merely informational and isn’t a comment for or against SS marriage.
I disagree about the farm system being re-stocked. There’s very few players that are close to making the jump to MLB.
The Twins simply need to spend sparingly (which term doesn’t mean cheap) and wisely; in other words, quality over quantity. Narrow it to a 3B and Class A SP.
BOP, I won’t defend a lot of those signings but Rondell White was a really good move at the time that just didn’t pan out as expected. He did hit well for us the 2nd half of 06 and was one of the few that did well in the playoffs that year.
I don’t know what caused his slow start that year but he wasn’t that old and he was coming off a very good year with Detroit.
He was a good hitter his whole careeer with power. I don’t know why it didn’t happen in Minnesota but no one had any reason to foresee anything but good production at the time.
This was a good signing of a “proven” player gone bad, imo.
“I don’t know why it didn’t happen in Minnesota”
Too much steroids.
Also, he was used poorly. The Twins knew RonDL had trouble staying healthy in Detroit and decided to make him a DH to lighten the load.
But he didn’t like being a DH, and said he couldn’t keep in the game without a position. So they put him in LF, and he played well for a while until he got hurt.
mww and Benny, you are choosing to see what you want to see. Example: Brian Duensing wasn’t signed this year, mww. None of the blog experts rated him higher than the 19th best organizational prospect, and that rating is on target. Fact: Manship, Swarzak, Morales, Mijares, Valencia, Hughes, Slama, Delaney, Plouffe, Ramos, Tosomi, Tolleson, Gutierrez, Pridie, Guerra, McCardell, Singleton, Burnett, Dinkelman, Steedley. These are players at AA and above that are solid prospects. Many of them are worthy of excitement.
So, mww, how many of these players were signed this year? And Benny, is AA not close enough to the majors for you?
This tired notion that the Twins are poor at player development? I’m sure glad that this notion is restricted to a handful of people on this blog. Everyone in the business thinks otherwise.
Crim, I used Rondell as an example of the “hit or miss” bargain basement types we used to always sign. I predict this era has passed.
So you know the names of a bunch of AA and AAA players in the Twins system.
What’s a “solid prospect” though? And why are they worthy of excitement? How come we didn’t see these guys this season when we had holes at 2B, SS, and 3B?
Mijares and Morales don’t count.
Pridie?
And don’t be so sure about Duensing. The league will catch up to him like they caught up to Swarzak.
bird,
I don’t think that “hit or miss bargain basement types” will pass or should pass. How bout Morris, Baylor, Winfield, Molitar, Chlli and Stienbach? These guys coulda very easiky flopped IMO.
Don’t forget Blyleven.
How could I forget Bert??
BA ranked the Twins’ organization 22nd in the majors going into 2009 (april 9, I think was the date of the ranking), so not everyone in the buisnes thinks they have an awesome minor league system.
bop, I suppose this sentence had no meaning, and made me out as negative:
” i think there is hope and reason to believe that times are changing”
Also, my post was in response to these names in your post:
“Sano, Gibson, and Kepler come to mind” all of whom WERE signed this year. Was anyone in your post I was responding to signed before this year?
So, I’m not sure what was factually wrong with my post. But, I’m done with this arguing back and forth now, it will get neither of us anywhere but frustrated.
Plus Carlton. I know he didn’t pitch post season, but for sure he had some mentoring value while he was here.
Paul, give me a bona fide two-way shortstop this off-season, not Cabrera please. Go ahead and “hit or miss” with Crede or someone to hold down 3B until Valencia is ready. I really hope the hitormiss days are numbered. Give me Manship or Swarzak over Livan. And it’s OK to surprise me with Harden.
bird,
I been bangin the drum for JJ since before the AS break. I’m OK with Crede too. And I think with Slowey back and the kids in the wings we’ll be fine. Plus, they might even resign Pavano. Who I really believe is back and a good fit. I betcha his ERA next year will be close to 4.00.
The link Joe provided to the Fred Claire article repeats the same story we always hear about what a great organizationthe Twins have, and how they build up from the minors. I do not strongly disagree, but I have two thoughts.
1. Every now and then, operating as the Twins do, it works, and you end up with a dang good team. At those times, you need to go get a Blyleven, a Morris, or whatever pieces you need to go all the way. This gives fans hope for another 20 years. Joe Mauer is more like once in a lifetime. Do it.
2. Where was the allleged great minor league organization this year when they needed competent pitching?
It’s nice they are respected, but if it can’t result in a championship 4-5 times a century, maybe the organization is likable but not that great. Sort of like the homely girl the cute girls are all friends wth because she’s not a threat.
“4. Get a good 3B
5. Get one FA SP.
That’s it; no big changes.”
No, that’s two big changes — especially if it’s a premier SP.
And yes, I agree that’s pretty much about all that needs to be done. Probably don’t need Mahay though.
“The farm system is re-stocked and ready to bear abundant fruit within two years, too.”
We need better starting pitchers at AAA.
Romer, you’re right; I should’ve posted ‘that’s it, not a bunch of changes.’
Mickey Mental:
IRO your earlier post of “next step: ignore,” remember, ignorance is no excuse.
Romer, if no Mahay, then whom would you proposed be the other lefty out of the bullpen (discounting Duensing, b/c he’ll be long relief and a spot starter)?
When they sign a pitcher, he starts in the Gulf Coast Rookie League and develops over the next few years, right, Romer? Their better prospects at AAA, Swarzak and Manship, just need a little more time, just like Baker and Slowey did. And they have Gibson, Bromberg, Guerra, McCardell, and Robertson coming along in 2-3 years. The starters will in fact be better in AAA next year, Romer. Patience has been required.
Joe the First, would be Neshek (good v. lefties), Liriano, Mijares, or possibly a FA/trade if necessary (if Neshek doesn’t recover).
But Mahay might be worth keeping, now that I look at his stats.
With a starting pitcher signing, Duensing would be excellent insurance down at AAA.
“IRO your earlier post of “next step: ignore,” remember, ignorance is no excuse.”
joe the first, i’m perfectly happy to talk baseball with you. it’s a baseball blog and your posts are usually interesting.
but the baiting? the name-calling? the politics? i’ll do my best to ignore …
by the way, the one possible flaw i see in your list is that cabrera is getting a little old for an everyday shortstop — but the twins could do worse.
Thanks for the reminder, bop.
Mickey Mental,
Fishing is the past time of most Minnesotan. So, what possibly can be wrong with baiting?
Even with a salary cap winning it all 4-5 times a century would be a fabulous result with 30 teams competing. Without a cap, 2 WS would probably be a good result. Keep in mind the Tigers and Royals haven’t even won a division title in over 20 years. Even big spenders like White Sox, Red Sox and Cubs went through 90 year droughts.
And, Mickey M., Cabrera is the best available that’s considering the Twins’ budget. Also, he fits with the team (according to the sports media). A 3-year deal would be a pretty signing; 2 years would be even better, but it’s unlikely Cabrera would take a 2-year deal.
What can be said about him? Even approaching his mid-30s, he’s still a slightly above-average SS.
That last post should’ve read ‘…best that’s available considering…’.
actually, joe the first, the word is pastime. never cared much for fishing (or phishing); vastly prefer (and still play) baseball.
as for cabrera, he’ll be 35 next month and has a .322 career obp. also, my eyes tell me he’s not the greatest fielder and on the slippery slope of decline. but he does seem to bring intangibles, if you believe in that sort of thing (i do). yes — “best available considering” is probably pretty true. but even two years seems kinda dicey. three years? gotta disagree there.
On this Nathan bit… I support Joe Nathan in a Twins uniform forever.
Could somebody help me out with some facts? I’ve been researching Blyleven’s early career with the Twins. Apparently he had something like 95 victories and a 2.80 ERA for the Twins into the ‘76 season. Then the fanbase grew antagonistic toward Blyleven. I don’t know why. They took some shots at him in the media. Blyleven asked to be traded. He was traded to the Rangers for Roy Smalley and Mike Cubbage.
Is that account correct?
I’m worried that, similar to the Blyleven situation, some of the vociferous anti-Nathan fans are going to get under Nathan’s skin, he’ll demand a trade, and then we won’t have the best pitcher on our staff anymore.
What say you?
On signing Joe Mauer, here’s why I think he will not re-sign with the Twins, at least not until after the 2010 season, and, as a result, what the Twins should do.
No one can say right now what Joe Mauer is truly worth in dollars to a ballclub. Joe Mauer is a unique player. No catcher has had his talent level since maybe Johnny Bench or Carlton Fisk. Those guys played before free agency took off. They didn’t hit for Mauer’s average. No one compares to Joe Mauer.
If Joe Mauer wants to get a fair price for his services, to find out what is a fair price, Mauer would have to go to the free agent market and take bids.
Mauer can’t take bids from other teams until he is a free agent. He won’t be a free agent until after the 2010 season.
If Mauer re-signs now, he will never find out what amount he could get from other teams. The typical human reaction is “Let’s see how high the bidding goes,” and then once the number starts going down, accept. We’ve all seen “Deal or No Deal.” Even if the Twins make a large offer to extend Mauer, that will just make him think that another club will offer more.
On the positive side, I believe the Twins will be able to match whatever he is offered. As a catcher, he can only be on the field for 75% of games, other than as a DH for American League teams. That reduces his value as measured in dollars.
We all saw that Torii Hunter left the Twins for just $3 million more per year with the Angels. There is a chance that Mauer will leave. Many people would take the highest offer, and maybe the Twins can’t match it.
The Twins should assume that Mauer is leaving. In 2010 the Twins should spend their wad, shoot the moon, and try to win the World Series. Go to the Pohlads and ask for a one-year increase in the payroll to $100 million. Get key free agents signed for the last Mauer year. Then, for 2011, whittle the team down and build it back with younger talent.
Trading Joe Mauer should not be considered. All the big east coast teams and other teams with money to burn get together, collude, conspire, and refuse to make a reasonable offer. This happens all the time to small and medium market teams, whether it’s the Indians losing Sabathia and Cliff Lee for peanuts or the Twins losing Santana for peanuts. The Twins will never, ever get anything close to fair market value in a trade for a big star like Joe Mauer. Thus, do not trade him. Have him play out his existing contract. Extend the contract if possible. If Mauer signs elsewhere, take the draft picks. Don’t make another trade ever again of a big star.
Gomez and Casilla to the minors.
Sign Alex Cora, infielder. He will compete with Punto to start at 2B.
Sign Orlando Cabrera, Pavano, Crede, and Mahay.
Use Crede and Harris at third base.
Sign Vladimir Guerrero. Trade him back to the Angels for Torii Hunter. Hunter starts at center field. Span in left. Cuddyer, right. Kubel is DH and backup OF.
Trade prospects and Delmon Young to the Diamondbacks for Brandon Webb. We need him as the ace strikeout pitcher to win the World Series next year.
OK, I know signing Validmir Guerrero and trading him back to the Angels for Hunter is unlikely at best. I can dream, though.
face it, the Twins have no choice but to sign Mauer, hes the most important signing since Puckett, and even more so, I would say hes the most poular Twin since Killebrew, wh en there was no free agency
I hate to say this but i am almost optimistic about our bullpen for next year
Add maybe a Huston Street and we would be pretty well set
I’m sorry all…I promised an end-of-season PoD Special.
I’ve had a change in work responsibilities and haven’t been able to do the research. Haven’t even had the time to post much.
I will get to it as soon as I have the time. Some of you put together some great posts, and I want to do you all justice.
I have to say I admire how optimistic Twins fans continue to be. With an incredible finish, they just managed to squeak through in by far baseball’s worst division and we swept in the first round of the division series to take them to 2-16 in their last 18 playoff games. Despite this, many people have posted that they are “close”.
Even with Mauer re-signed to a long term deal, Pavano, Cabrera, Rausch, and Mahay brought back, and Morneau healthy, they are still the same team described above. It is pretty clear that under baseball’s completely unfair financial structure (even with the tremendous advantage of playing in the AL Central- they would have been lucky to win 70 games in the AL East) they are not even close to being one of the elite teams in the game.
I think we all need to root for them to win their division each year, but to seriously think that this team can compete with teams spending two and three times what they do on payroll is to be unrealistic in the face of the reality of what baseball has become in the Bud Selig era. I root for the Twins as much as anyone, but I also know that they are not nearly as good as the Yankees, Angels, and Red Sox.
General Managers like Theo Epstein of the Red Sox understand that loyalty for past performance (Nathan, Morneau) can have no place in this cut-throat era when putting a team together. There is only so much money to go around and a lot of it is going to be used to re-sign Mauer. They have to be creative, but this time I would hope that Bill Smith could follow a simple guideline in making moves: don’t give away the pieces of the puzzle that fit (BARTLETT, Garza) for pieces that might fit down the road (DELMON). Other than that, let’s just enjoy competing for the AL Central title with the White Sox and Tigers and leave the competition for the World Series to the big boys.
“USAFChief says:
October 16th, 2009 at 9:50 pm
I’m sorry all…I promised an end-of-season PoD Special.
I’ve had a change in work responsibilities and haven’t been able to do the research. Haven’t even had the time to post much.
I will get to it as soon as I have the time. Some of you put together some great posts, and I want to do you all justice.”
And here we thought you were just sluffing off, Chief.
“General Managers like Theo Epstein of the Red Sox understand that loyalty for past performance (Nathan, Morneau) can have no place in this cut-throat era when putting a team together.”
Can’t wait to see where Youkilis and Papelbon end up this offseason. Since, you know, they didn’t perform well in the playoffs and Epstien will be cut throat and ship them off….
Here’s my suggestion box for the Twins this winter, only takes three moves:
1. Obviously, extend Joe Mauer. Hometown discount, $20-$21mm/year for as many years as he wants.
2. Sign Adrian Beltre for $10m/yr. Twins have always wanted him; great defender, power, low walks total. Buy low.
3. Trade for J.J. Hardy. (Perkins and pitching prospects) Same profile of Beltre, only better plate discipline. Haven’t seen that the Twins covet him, but it makes a ton of sense. Again, buy low.
The rest of the moves are in house. Gomez to Rochester, Punto/Casilla to battle for 2B.
This was a pretty good year organizationally. Great come from behind division win, even though they had lots of adversity. They should improve next year on numerous fronts–full years from Mauer, Morneau and Slowey, a bullpen that is a strength all year (Nathan, Mijares, Guerrier, Crain, Rauch, Slama, Delaney, Neshek, Mahay), at least replacement level from 3B, 2B, and SS.
Starting rotation will be better than they were this year. They could sign a FA starter, but they have options for next year. Slowey and Baker are a great 1-2, and they have a good series of options to fill out the rotation (Liriano, Blackburn, Duensing, Swarzak, Manship, Bonser for starters, not counting guys coming up through the system like Guttierrez.)
The best moves of the year were: 1)Sano and Gibson–these are two HUGE signings, and 2)not being committed to Crede long-term.
If the Twins make these two moves, their weakest link will be their rotation, which will have lots of upside.
I meant three moves.
This year, the Twins left lots of wins “on the table” and I still projected them to win 86-87 games and compete for the division title. If they manage to turn gaping holes in their roster into above average production, they will easily have a 90+ win projection. (Haven’t run the numbers, yet of course.)
Fascinating year-end review of value provided by Twins position players, factoring in contributions from D and Offense:
http://www.fangraphs.com/winss.aspx?team=Twins&pos=all&stats=bat&qual=0&type=6&season=2009&month=0
Mauer produced 8 (WAR) Wins, worth $35-$40million.
Punto produced 1.2 wins, worth $5million.
Cuddyer, 2 wins, worth $9million.
Kubel, 3 wins, worth $13+ million.
etc. Twins FO are paying the right prices for players, and played it right with Kubel to get a year of his free agency for cheap.
Note Beltre and Hardy had years well off of their career norms, yet still had good overall production. Buy low, folks.
Actually fcmlefty, I read that there is speculation that the Red Sox may indeed move Papelbon this winter for the right offer. You’re right that Youkilis is staying there ,but guys like Ortiz and Varitek may be on the way out. Teams like the Red Sox don’t accept getting swept in the first round quite as easily as the Twins do.I think you get my point that each year the Twins must assess what is the wisest way to spend their 60-80 million payroll and loyalty for past performance can’t be the sole criterion.
It is a very difficult thing to assess when to let a player go, but Nathan is going to make over 11 million a year 1/6 or 1/7 of that payroll to appear in 68 games. If they are going to do that again, they are going to want a guy who is not beginning to decline. Nathan was not as sharp this year as he has been in the past and his performance in the division series was downright embarassing. He looked like a scared little kid out there.
As far as Morneau goes, he is a great player, at least from April-July. His performance had fallen off a cliff in August-September for the last three seasons. He makes a lot of money, is another left-handed bat in a line-up that has too many, and once someone has back problems they can easily recur.
The Twins seemed to play awfully well without Morneau over the last twenty games of the season. If they could get a starting pitcher like Cain from the Giants for him, don’t you think they should at least consider it? That way Cuddy stays at first and Mauer replaces him there down the road. I think these are moves the Twins could at least contemplate in the off-season.
Once again, to be realistic, the Twins will not be able to re-sign Joe Mauer this offseason. The Twins will try, but Mauer will wait for the bidding wars of free agency, and then he might re-sign with the Twins depending on what offers he gets.
JJ Hardy played in 115 games last year and hit .229, 11 HR, 49 RBI. He has only 5 career SB. He is slow. The Twins require speed. O-Cabrera, Tolbert, Casilla, and Punto are equally or more talented at SS.
Beltre is coming off his worst season offensively since his rookie year. After ten years in the majors, he might be slowing down. Alternating Crede and Harris at 3B is more effective and cheaper.
It sickens me when the Twins are called one of the best-run clubs in baseball. If the Twins are the best run, I’d hate to see the worst.
Can the Twins make a World Series run? Joe Mauer has publicly said ‘yes’ to that question. To make the run, the Twins front office needs to start making good moves. Perhaps the #1 thing they could do is to just stop making trades, other than to package Delmon Young and prospects for Brandon Webb.
Here is a list of disastrous personnel moves in recent years:
Let Garrett Jones go for no explicable reason. He turns out to be awesome for the Pirates. I was very impressed with the potential he displayed in a Twins uniform in 2008, and assumed he had a bright future in the Twins outfield. The Twins front office took a brusque look at him and decided Carlos Gomez would be a lot better.
Let Torii Hunter go to another team for just $3 million more per year. A huge, gaping hole was left in the outfield that remains unfilled.
Traded Johan Santana for nothing. This trade was an epic bust. In the following season, the Twins were in a tiebreaker game for the division championship, and lost that game. With Santana on the mound in the last year of his contract, the Twins would have won the division in 2008.
Traded All-Star Jason Bartlett and playoff-clutch, heater-throwing strikeout pitcher Matt Garza (79 BB, 189 K in 2009), for a serviceable infielder, Brendan Harris, and an overrated fat lazy error-prone outfielder, Delmon Young.
Assumed that a pitcher with a violent throwing motion, Liriano, was going to last a long time in the Majors without any injuries. Liriano should have been traded while he was peaking in 2006.
Assumed that pitchers return from Tommy John surgery and regain the form they once had. Liriano proved that wrong in case anyone didn’t know it already.
The Twins have no coaches who are truly fluent in Spanish, and yet the Twins have many Spanish-speaking players, Gomez, Casilla, and Mijares, who are badly in need of intense coaching.
List of potentially good moves:
Traded Tyler Ladendorf for Orlando Cabrera, and traded Yohan Pino for Carl Pavano. These guys helped the Twins win the division in ‘09, but if they are not re-signed the moves become questionable. We’ll see how Ladendorf and Pino turn out, but I believe the Twins got a good deal in these trades.
List of very good moves:
Picked up Rauch, Mahay, and Crede for cash.
Extended Justin Morneau.
On balance, the Twins have made a number of bad moves lately. It’s time for the front office to turn it around and build up the team for a World Series run in 2010.
MauerPower–you are repeating what I said–Hardy and Beltre had off seasons and are therefore excellent buy low candidates. Their bats are slightly above average; their gloves are stupendous.
Twins will sign Mauer, I have no doubt about this at all.
I haven’t been impressed with Smith’s ealry moves (from day one, I thought the Bartlett/Garza deal would backfire, uneasy with the Santana deal, thought Torii should’ve been resigned earlier.) But, Cabrera, Rauch, Mahay and Pavano all worked well. Crede gave us exactly what we paid for- a huge upgrade at a problem position for part of a season. I’m anxious to see who of these late-season acquisitions stay. In my mind, Ryan made a hole trading Luis Castillo for nothing and Cabrera at short is pretty equivalent to Castillo at 2nd. Signing Cabrera for 6mil+/yr would be disappointing to me, but if he eats less payroll than that, I’d be all for it.
“I’ve had a change in work responsibilities and haven’t been able to do the research. Haven’t even had the time to post much.”
Wife made ya get a job huh?
“Wife made ya get a job huh?”
… and there, ladies and gentlemen, is your PoD …
RE: Zimmerman
The Nationals would probably not trade Zimmerman for less than Mauer+ or Morneau+.
There has been a constant drumbeat about the cheapness/incompetance of the Learners.
Even the drafting of Strasburg has done little to slow that.
Zimmerman is/was the FRANCHISE. Trade him for less than 2x actual worth would lose 15-20% of current attendance.
Regards,
ps: he was signed for 4/5 years during the season…he’s not going anywhere.
Dragon–correct. Zimmerman has zero chance of being moved. I don’t know why people even bring it up.
Last year, Beltre had an OPS of .683.
Against RHP, Crede had an OPS of .775.
Against LHP, Harris had an OPS of .751.
Split time between Crede and Harris, don’t sign Beltre, and get more performance for less money.
Beltre is a badddd idea. He is past comeback. Hardy has a chance being a young player of 26 or so. Stick with Crede, sign another one year incentive laden deal and watch him play more because of the GRASS at Target Field. He also played in the windy city, so he knows the cold of a night game in the midwest.
Hardy, if he could be picked up for Perkins and a prospect (which i kinda doubt..) would be a good low risk deal. Not owed much money, and who hear really thinks O-Cab will keep up that pace he had with the Twins. He was solid, but even more so at the dome. Late season in the cold Minny nights will make his old bones reappear.
Resigning Crede and trading for Hardy would barely even effect payroll, meaning more money for a solid sp, or even to grab an Orlando Hudson and go into the season with Mauer, Morneau, Hudson, Hardy and Crede around the horn. Sounds good to me.
After doing some research, i agree with those in favor of Bedard over Harden. Harden will cost twice as much, and had about 75% effectiveness as Bedard, in the NL at that.
My moves for the off-season. Realistically they could happen and still keep payroll decent.
1. Just like everyone says, resign Mauer. However i think it going to take around a 6 to 7 yr 135 to 140 million dollar deal. Starting at 20 mil and getting to about 26 mil per towards the end of contract.
2. Keep Nathan. He is still an elite closer, and will get nothing in return worthwhile for him. We need NOW pieces, not prospects. Only a contender would take him with that salary, and contenders will not trade NOW pieces.
3. Play DY full-time. Either in Lf or Dh him. I personally think Kubel takes better routes to the ball then DY does, and might be better in Lf for the Twins, even with lesser speed. DY can hit if he gets consistent playing time, and Gomez need to take the GoGo express to Rochester, NY, A.S.A.P.
4. Resign Joe Crede. Why in the world did we sign and injury prone all star Boras client to a one year deal to play at injury heaven in the Dome? Ever think because if the Twins let him sign with someone else and he played 140+ games, no way the Twins could afford him? He hit .225, which is even low for is career numbers (.258 career) yet still had a stellar glove and hit 15 homers and drove in 48 while scoring 42 in 90 GAMES. He can be signed cheap, would be willing to play for the Twins again, knowing they are on grass now, and could pay off big.
5. If Hardy really is available, offer Perkins plus a prospect. If they take, low risk, high possible reward. Worst case you get a solid defense Ss with pop. Best case you get an All-star player. Realistically, it might take Liriano and Perk. I still say do it, for the fact that Perkins time as a Twin is basically numbered anyways.
6. O-dog. Orlando Hudson could put Punto where he belongs… in the above average utility role. Plus at 6 to 7 million on a one year deal, you could get a player with solid defense, .283 bavg, 9 homers and 62 rbis. Solid offense, with a .357 Obp and a .774 Ops. Can you say Gardy can keep his wish with Mauer batting 3rd, because O-dog would love batting second between Span and Baby Jesus?
7. Bedard is a Type B Fa. Cash only to get this guy. Being he only made 15 starts last year, his salary should go down. At 7.75 mil for 09, you could get him on an incentive filled 5 mil 1 year deal, especially since he knows he could become the Ace of this staff. 2.82 era and 90k/34Bb over 83 inn as his sample size. Harden will command over 10 mil a year, with a 4.09 era and 171k/67Bb over 141 ip (26 starts). Remember, Bedard pitched in the AL. Harden NL. Bedard looks like a steal.
8. I’ve been on this one for a bit. Mahay NEEDS to return. With Neshek returning, that should take pressure off of Guerrier and Nathan, allowing Nathan to concentrate on save situations only. Mahay could be that save stabilizing force as them, but for Mijares. Maijares pitched alot last year and it showed the last month and the ALDS. Mahay had a small sample size with the Twins, but over 16 apperances had a era of 2 even, 9 ip, and 8k/3Bb. A cheap deal and he could stabilize the pen.
A pen consisting of Rauch, Mahay Mijares, Crain, Neshek, possibly Lirano or Deunsing (depending upon a Sp signing or Liriano being included in a trade), and Nathan… sounds like a possible top 5 pen again.
Nice thing, is none of these players, with the exception of Orlando Hudson, is considered THE player in the Fa market for their position. Meaning they could come cheaper, even more so in this economy. Being that the Twins dont want to over do the payroll, this is a very possible and affordable route that could take the Twins from miracle playoff team, to pennant contender.
And now i must go to the emergency room to be treated for carpel tunnel. BBL fellow Twinkie fans. 
Was it Figgins that a lot of people were saying would put us over the hump? The guy currently 0-18 in the playoffs?
I agree that the Twins are not an elite team. I disagree that they have no chance. Our elite closer didn’t get the job done a couple of times. I am fine with them winning the division every year. 2-16 is meaningless to me. If they make the playoffs next year they will be 0-0. What does 4 or 5 years ago have to do with anything? They will still not be favored but that doesn’t mean anything. Did any of you compete in sports? Did you say you had no chance when a team had better talent? Did you lose every game when they did?
Also, the Twins are in the worst division in the American league. Twins and Tigers both went 12-6 against them and have had success for years. If the Twins would have been lucky to have 70 wins in the East, then I say they would be likely to have won 95 in any of the National divisions.
12-6 against the National League. Sorry.
Yes and the Twins went 12-6 Vs. the Tigers… does that mean we should move the Kitties to the NL? 
“Was it Figgins that a lot of people were saying would put us over the hump? The guy currently 0-18 in the playoffs?”
An 18 at-bat drought makes him unqualified for what?
In that case, NOBODY is qualified, because EVERYBODY has droughts or slumps.
Figgins is still a hell of player, regardless of current cold spells.
Just finished the GM handbook I bought via this post. Man, I’m sure glad neither Parker nor John is the GM of this team…we’d be awful!!
Hey, Parker, you do know that the Mariners were about a dozen games out of the playoffs, don’t you? Perhaps they’re not a sufficient blue-print of success, ya know? And John…my god…isn’t the point of the off-season to get better??? Spend a little money, get some real talent…we have a new ballpark!!
I sure hope neither of you are getting paid to write about the Twins. Neither of you has a clue. I appreciate what Seth and The Kid said in the book; it was worth the dough. But you too…man, you’re ideas suck. Really. You haven’t a clue. It’s almost laughable that you contributed to the thing.
Next year, Seth, keep it to just you and The Kid. Really. It was embarrassing reading the blue-print from the other two; it was like reading some mid-season Billy Smith propaganda about how we suck because we’re a “small market” franchise and have a “terrible lease at the Metrodome.”
Parker, really defense-first??? Haven’t we tried that, like a thousand times during the 90s? Do you even watch baseball today??? Do you have any idea what’s going on in the game today???
LOL. The Seattle Mariners as a blue-print. Ouch.
Whoops. Add Brian Fuentes to the list of closers that needs to be traded this offseason.
Nathan, Papelbon, Steet, Fuentes…wow…there’s going to be some blockbusters moves this offseason.
that’s funny, t. i was thinking pretty much the same thing.
and lidge is back in the hall of fame.
An 18 at-bat drought makes him unqualified for what?
Well going by the Reusse Rule, Figgins must be traded this offseason.
Wow 18 ABs? So Figgins is pullin’ a Kubel!
Would we all want to ditch Kubel too?
I think T does not like Reusse.
Orgasmal Kevin…. T loves everyone, just ask Ben.
Well Twins fans…looks like Utley may be on the move too:
Sign him, T! We need a few more pieces. Vikes signed a few missing pieces and now are 6-0! This is funny, check it out:
is there another place Twins fans are posting these days? Not much action on this blog
Mauer Power said, “Let Torii Hunter go to another team for just $3 million more per year. A huge, gaping hole was left in the outfield that remains unfilled.”
He got twice as much money as the Twins were offering. They offered 3yrs for $45 million, he got 5 years for $90 million. Maybe only $3 million per year difference, but he got double the money from the Angels. Is that going to be a good contract when he is 38 and making $18 million? He only played 119 games this year. I’d love to still have him, but you oversimplified his contract a little bit.
My reason for pointing out Figgins slump was to take issue with those that think there is some magic move that the Twins can make that would put them over the hump into the world series. In the playoffs aces lose games, 3 and 4 pitchers throw gems, great hitters slump and poor hitters produce. Add any 3 players you want to the Twins and the odds are still at least 12-1 against.
I am all for improving the team but as the Yankees are showing, you still need to get a lot of breaks.
I have not read all of the posts here but I have noticed many that do not think that the Twins will spend more than 80 million in payroll…I thought that they “promised” more than that? I may be wrong but I thought that they had talked about a certain increase to match revenue. As for those who said it is more important that they spend the money correctly than just spend…thank you captain obvious. This is the goal of every team I would assume.
the payroll SHOULD increas with increased revenue. And not just based on percentage. So for example, if the payroll had been 60% of say 110 million revenue, if the revenue goes up to 140 million, the extra should go straight to payroll. The Pohlads will still have as mucyh profit dollars left as before, and the increased revenue based on the publics investment in the stadium will go to payroll where it will reward the public with a better product.
“He [Hunter] got twice as much money as the Twins were offering. They offered 3yrs for $45 million, he got 5 years for $90 million.”
The Twins offered $15 million per year, average. The Angels offered $18 million per year, average.
If the Twins had just matched the Angels’ offer, they keep Torii Hunter. The payroll numbers would barely budge. We would still be playing baseball right now, this year, because in addition to keeping Hunter, the Santana trade and the Rays trade would have been better, too.
Great teams need to be strong up the middle. Catcher, pitcher, second baseman, shortstop, and centerfield. Centerfield is the Twins weakest spot!
Denard Span is a natural left fielder and he shouldn’t be moved to center all the time. He doesn’t have the arm strength.
Trade Delmon Young as he loves lounging around a lot more than he likes playing baseball.
Then there is the guy who can’t hit or bunt or run the basepaths or hit the cut-off man. Gomez can’t learn anything from the Twins coaching staff because Gomez can’t even speak their language. It’s unbelievably frustrating because Gomez is probably the best or second-best athlete on the team, he has an abundance of natural ability and talent, he just has to be groomed. Gomez has not learned one thing from the Twins since he got here.
The Twins MUST hire a good Spanish-fluent coach for Gomez and Casilla. It is just not negotiable. Orlando Cabrera could theoretically become a player-coach and be their coach-mentor. O-Cab would immediately become the second-best coach on the team, and could eventually take over for Gardenhire as manager once Gardy retires.
I am sick and tired of the Twins being the lovable losers of Major League Baseball, and I’m not going to take it anymore!
“I am sick and tired of the Twins being the lovable losers of Major League Baseball, and I’m not going to take it anymore!”
Yeah yeah yeah…….
The Angels are the current lovable losers, facing the Yankees HR machine and behind 2-0 in the game this afternoon.
I’m sure everyone’s sick and tired of them too.
“Denard Span is a natural left fielder and he shouldn’t be moved to center all the time. He doesn’t have the arm strength.”
Span has a strong arm, though not a booming arm. More importantly he gets to the ball quickly and gets rid of it quickly. He also throws it to the correct base, or hits the cut-off man, and throws it ACCURATELY.
Gomez gets to the ball quickly, but then does the silly Bambi dance before releasing it to who knows where. In the event he does try to throw it where he should, his arm is still very erratic.
Still, I wouldn’t be opposed to adding another centerfielder.
“…but then does the silly Bambi dance…”
Oh jeez, now you can add Broxton to the pile of washed up closers that need to be dealt.
Man…
T…I suggest we throw all of the washed up closers’ names in a hat and have the worst draw first. That way we can’t complain about our stupid moves, just luck of the draw. What say?
I think Nathan is somewhere between “washed up” and “elite”. Pretty sure he’s much closer to “elite”. It wouldn’t be surprising though if his best days are behind him. It is going to happen to every elite closer eventually. But I think a less-than-elite Nathan is still better than any other option. Maybe we’ll actually get to see a complete game from a Twin again.
“If the Twins had just matched the Angels’ offer, they keep Torii Hunter”
Do you not know simple math? Torii got a $90 million contract. The Twins offered $45 because they didn’t want to go over 3 years. Say they offered $18 million for 3 years, do you really think he would have left $36 million on the table? No, he would not. Quit living in the past.
Mauer Power: “I am sick and tired of the Twins being the lovable losers of Major League Baseball, and I’m not going to take it anymore!”
Your entire post….”Mauer Power says:
October 19th, 2009 at 2:14 pm…….”
is so full of mularkey that it almost seems nonsensical. If you are “…not going to take it anymore!” I am assuming that we will not have to read anymore of your jabberwacky anymore, and good for us.
The Jabberwock,
with eyes of flame,
Came whiffling through the tulgey wood,
And burbled as it came!
WJ…The entire poetic version of Jabberwocky, by Lewis Carroll, the best collection of nonsensical words I ever read:
“”http://www.jabberwocky.com/carroll/jabber/jabberwocky.html”"
Welcome to the bigtime, Mauer Power.
“It wouldn’t be surprising though if his best days are behind him.”
And so it was said about M. Rivera in 2008.
And so it’s been said this year that Nathan better not pitch any more 50-pitch games ever again.
So Mr. Reusse Group-Grope (meaning, you horde of trade-Nathan advocates), who is better than Rivera/Nathan currently?
romer - Rodriguez for the Mets is pretty darn good.
I’d only be for trading him if the right offer comes up (ie fills a need somewhere else). we have arms that can possibly fill the need if necessary (albeit probably less reliable). He’s just so darn expensive with what we have and what we need. I’m actually more for trading Cuddy or not picking up his option and negotiating a cheaper, long-term option…
Hi guys. I’ve got a lengthy post that has been awaiting moderation for some time now. I’m a little pissed. I’m gonna repost it paragraph by paragraph and see what bounces. Sorry if this is confusing.
A few things.
JJ Hardy. His numbers pre 09 speak for themselves. 09 was a unique situation. The Brewers screwed up good IMO. Here’s a 26 yr old kid, a good guy, an allstar SS, a plus defender, puttin up .280 with 25 jacks the 2 previous years. They had Escobar, this young kid tearing up the minors. They let it be known that he was the SS of the future. While the kid they already had on the field, a kid that about 25 other teams would love as their SS, wasn’t handled. He stumbled around. They sent him down. I just hope the Twins didn’t lose an opportunity by not goin hard after him early in the year. IMO he’d be a PERFECT fit. I think he’s gonna be highly sought after this off season.
Polanco. Someone mentioned Detroit might let him go to free agency. I don’t think ANY GM is that stupid. Him, Granderson, Verlander and Porcello are the only sure things on that team. That said, I’d have to go clean myself if the Twins signed him. I thought the Twins shoulda got him when the Tigers did.
Nathan. Trade Nathan? Are we talkin bout Joe Nathan? Bad idea IMO. Real bad.
Neshek. I don’t think we can realistically count on him next year. Probably can’t count on Boof for a while either.
Pavano. Resign him. He’s back. And he fits.
Delmon. I luv him. I believe he’s gonna reach Jermaine Dye status in his career. But I don’t think he fits well here. Him gone forces Gomez to buckle down. Good points about the Spanish language barrier from Mauer Power. A lot of us were talkin bout that early last year. Hopefully the FO sees this also. And rectifys it.
Anyhoo. Lookin forward to 2010. Watchin the M&M boys, Punto, JJ, Velancia/Crede, Span, Gomez, Cuddy, Kubes, Pavano, Slowey, Baker, Blackie, Liriano, Nathan, Matty, Crain, Rausch, Mjaris, the whole coaching staff and Gardy battling their tales off and gettin after it.
The Twins purse strings. They’re gonna do what they’ve always done. Set a budget. Do their best to put a competitive team on the field while not violating the budget. Those outside of their board room have no idea what the dynamics of their budget determining process are.
I know they’ve said 52 or 53 % of revenue will be available for payroll. But this is arbitrary and has to be a moving target as their costs change year to year. Especially with the new ballpark.
Sorry bout this everybody. But I did get it figured out.
T…I suggest we throw all of the washed up closers’ names in a hat and have the worst draw first.
When you say “washed up”, are you referring to those that are actually washed up? Or those that are Reusse’s definition of washed up?
Because if it’s the latter, I’d fight to be the first to draw from the hat. If it’s the former, I’d rather let everybody else go and cross my fingers that there aren’t any left when it’s my turn.
?
T, I was referring to all of the elite closers that have blown saves during certain key games during the season and in the playoffs. Just thought I would add to the discussion of getting rid of Nathan, there are other closers who are “washed up” too. I’d keep Nathan before going to the hat, right?
I was thinkin - our outfield situation is rather bleak with Span as the only real sure thing - Cuddy is on the final year of his deal. DY still has question marks and Gomez is too raw and inconsistent.
One name i see is Podsednik from Chicago. Its possible he’ll be available since they are already shelling out so much money. He’d be a lock for the 2nd spot behind Span and still has plenty of speed. Imagine the top of the order being Span, Podsednik, Mauer, Morneau, Cuddy.
Hey matt,
Nice to hear you again. About Pods. I think the team will give Delmon a full time job if they don’t trade him. With Delmon and Cuddy on the wings Span will play CF. And we don’t need a DH. No place for him.
Walter Johnson says:
I think Nathan is somewhere between “washed up” and “elite”.
Ha! Excellent, WJ. I’ll bet you are right.
“Anyhoo. Lookin forward to 2010. Watchin the M&M boys, Punto, JJ, Velancia/Crede, Span, Gomez, Cuddy, Kubes, Pavano, Slowey, Baker, Blackie, Liriano, Nathan, Matty, Crain, Rausch, Mjaris,…”
JJ? Oh yeah. I forgot they are bringing Jacque back.
“I forgot they are bringing Jacque back”
Hey Bunting, that’s pretty good.
hey paul, thanks been busy studying…
I agree with you that DY gets a shot probably, but I feel that POd would make us better. he’d upgrade two spots in the OF defensively (he’d be at CF, arguably better than Span, and Span moving to left, who’d be MUCH better than DY in LF) as well as locking up the #2 spot in the order with speed and a .300 average (neither of which DY really offers).
You say they spend 53% roughly on payroll? I believe that percentage should go UP when they get increased revenue. Of course, even if the percentage does not go up, the revenue dollars will go up. But if the revenue dollars go up from say 110mill to 140 mill, why put the whole extra 30 mill in payroll? They will still have the same number of profit dollars as they did before.
Costs versus Revenues are generally a percentage basis, same as our day to day living adjustments and. It is standard operating procedure, Kevin.
Well, Torii Hunter is hitting .222 in the playoffs so far this year, so maybe letting him go was OK. Is that terrible to say? I don’t know. He does have a home run, though.
Isn’t it funny how everyone was criticizing Nathan, and then almost every closer in the playoffs proceeds to blow game after game?
Being a closer ain’t easy. Keep Joe Nathan.
Kevin,
I have no idea what they spend percentage wise. But I did read a quote, from Ryan I think, about 2 yrs ago that their payroll budget was up to 52 or 53% of revenue.
The first rule in BIG business is to make a profit. The next rule is to make as big of profit as possible. The first thing I was taught in business was “don’t leave money on the table”. That means that the price of the product is whatever the market will bear. This is how Bill Gates went from zero to the richest man in the world in about 20 years. The strife in business is to provide a product that is needed or wanted while keeping the cost low as possible and promoting like crazy to drive demand up.
Even though they are a closely held corp, historically the Twins have been run this way exactly. The exact dynamics of their boardroom will never be fully known or understood to outsiders. Heck, some of the board members might not even be clear on the unexpressed “standards” or “purposes” of the owners.
Even though most fans would like your idea of “same number of profit dollars” I don’t think it’ll fly in the boardroom.
DrDon, I agree it is st andard operationg procedure, but it doesnt have to be. Suppose revenues are 100 mm and they use 55% on payroll, thus 55 mm. If revenues go up to 130MM because of new stadium, and you put all of the new revenue to payroll, payroll be be 85 mm and ownership would still have the same 45 mill they did before. Why do they need more profit just because we bought them a stadium. I know its not st andard procedure, and I know they will not do it, but they could, without losing a dime.
Paul, I generally agree with you. But this is not a pure business in the free market sense. If it was, they would build their own stadium, and then charge whatever they wanted, and pay whatever they wanted. However, in this case, taxpayers are ponying up 300 million. Since this is the case, the free market rules kind of go away. The Pohlads want it both ways: they say they can charge and pay what they want, as a free business, but oh, by the way, we want a 300 million dollar handout. We would have been better off putting the 300 mill in some sort of interest bearing account, and using the itnerest to pay for an additional top player every year
Kevin, in an idealogical world, your postion makes sense. But we live in a realistic world, not idealogic, and though your thoughts are good, it ain’t gonna happen that way. That is reality.
Kevin,
“the free market rules kind of go away.”
Sorry dude, It don’t work this way.
The stadium is a classic example of the “free market, don’t leave money on the table” at work. They did it because they could. And if we didn’t pony up, someone else would have.
I’m with you in principle. As much as I luv the Twins I would’ve said no to the stadium. But no one asked me.
Kevin, here’s another free market glich for ya. Exxon loves it when the price of crude goes up. They just process it, tack on their profit percentage, and sell it. They set record profits when crude was at its highest price.
When the heroes of baseball can only become compared with the executives at Exxon, then baseball is ruined — and it’s only another corporate rat-race enterprise.
And if you want to take on this — what I call — anti-Americanism — and defeat the fat-rat Yankees payroll bullies, then you’d better support something more akin to Kevin than to his detractors.
If the Twins stuff their windfall profits into their pockets and be payroll conservatives, that will stink to high heaven.
romer,
The fact is, it’s… “only another corporate rat-race enterprise.”
It’s the GAME that I luv. The art form. We get to watch the best practitioners in the world. I just let the other stuff go.
I do believe complaining loudly, like those on here, does help. We are, after all, their customers.
Anyone else getting a little thrill watching the Angels choke, leave the bases loaded, give up walk offs, run the bases like idiots etc. as NY beeyatch slaps them into submission? It’s almost like having our season continue by proxy.
Long Live the Yankees…the future of Major League Baseball is in their hands.
I am not enjoying seeing the Angels choke. I would much prefer them to the Yanks.
Paul, that is where we differ. I do agree that you coudl call it the free market in that if Minneapolis did not pony up, someone else would,, the difference is, I dont think anyone else would.
Having said that, I agree the Twins wont do what I think. I would just like to think, in a dream world, the Pohalads would reward the public by using a much higher percentage of the additional revenue from Target Field for payroll. (yea, yea, in a wise way, that much goes without saying)
Doc, somebody else agrees with your statement about the Yankees. Last night’s game further proves they have the Umps in their back pockets.
Yup, I said it.
Thanks, shaun. for the longest time I have felt that. And after what has happened this post season, it is pretty obvious. Long live the Yankees, so that Long live MLB.
“Long live the Yankees, so that Long live MLB.”
Okay okay. But we can hate the Yankees just as much with their having a $150M payroll instead of the current $200M.
And the bottom line for me is that more fans will feel halfway decent in places like Pittsburgh and Wash DC as their teams have a better chance and can keep good players because of increased revenue sharing.
Then we wouldn’t be having this little disagreement because the Twins’ share would be greater too.
Where can we get the Twins payroll and revenue numbers? How close have they come to 52-53%? Haven’t they gotten a big bump in revenue from late season increased attendance the last two years?
AM,
This is copied from Forbes.com.
These are 2008 numbers.
1-Yr Value Chg. 9%
Ann. Value Chg.2 9%
Debt/Value3 28%
Revenue4 $158 mil
Operating Inc.5 $26.8 mil
Player Expenses6 $80 mil
Gate Receipts7 $44 mil
50.65%
The Twins organization is in fact acting to reward fans for the new stadium, but it just isn’t evident to most fans yet. They spent over $12M signing Gibson, Sano, Kepler, and others. That’s just one example.
Do you think it’s unreasonable to base your player salary budget on a three-year average of revenues? Do you think it’s miserly to hold back some of that budget to cover the anticipated raises of the core players? If Payroll rises to $100M, based on average revenues of $200M, will you stop whining? And what if revenues fall, like they have in many markets? If they pay out $100M to players, and then revenue falls back to $150M, thereby throwing operating income into negative territory, how empathetic will you be to the Twin’s plight? Does this new risk they are beginning to take on explain the notion of maintaining profits as a percentage of gross revenues? Ask your old business professors about this. Maybe, just maybe, the Twins are doing a whole lot better by its fans than most professional sports franchises under its current management, and you’re refusing to acknowledge the evidence of this.
Bride of Chucky says:
“Anyone else getting a little thrill watching the Angels choke, leave the bases loaded, give up walk offs, run the bases like idiots etc. as NY beeyatch slaps them into submission?”
Bride,
Ever get a little thrill beeyatch slapping Chucky into submission?
birdofprey wrote: ‘The Twins organization is in fact acting to reward fans for the new stadium, but it just isn’t evident to most fans yet. They spent over $12M signing Gibson, Sano, Kepler, and others. That’s just one example. ‘…and this is different than what other teams that draft players…how many players over the last 3, 4 years have they drafted due to being able to pay them compartively samll bonus’. The teams payroll is lower now than in 2007…let’s call a spade a spade…if you’re happy with having 5 starting position players out of 9 (DH is included) that actually deserve to be starting in the majors, good for you…others aren’t, especially when there’s no help in site and we need to try and fill 3 spots in the infield with players we know are worthless at the starting level at least. Think about that. We need to figure out who is gonna play two of these three position 3B, SS and 2B, with PUNTO the only sure thing…as if knowing for sure Punto will be starting eases anyone’s mind.
birdofprey wrote: ‘The Twins organization is in fact acting to reward fans for the new stadium, but it just isn’t evident to most fans yet. They spent over $12M signing Gibson, Sano, Kepler, and others. That’s just one example. ‘…and this is different than what other teams that draft players? How many players over the last 3, 4 years have they drafted due to being able to pay them compartively samll bonus’. The teams payroll is lower now than in 2007…let’s call a spade a spade…if you’re happy with having 5 starting position players out of 9 (DH is included) that actually deserve to be starting in the majors, good for you…others aren’t, especially when there’s no help in site and we need to try and fill 3 spots in the infield with players we know are worthless at the starting level at least. Think about that. We need to figure out who is gonna play two of these three position 3B, SS and 2B, with PUNTO the only sure thing…as if knowing for sure Punto will be starting eases anyone’s mind.
Puckettfan, I understand your view. It lacks perspective, and your facts are garbled. Not one player has been signed in the past few years because they command a smaller bonus. Revere is usually cited, but where’s your source? The Twins liked him. Others didn’t. The Twins were right. Who else? Hicks? Gutierrez? Hermsen? Weller? Hunt? Parmelee? Get your facts straight. And this idiocy about the 2007 payroll? What is so complicated about the very sound decision to reserve some of your salary budget to accommodate your best players as their arbitration years approach? Take two chill pills and see me in two years, when payroll exceeds even your expectations, the team remains very very competitive with help from the likes of Gibson, Swarzak, Valencia, Tosoni, Ramos, and Gutierrez, with Hicks, Morales, Revere, Benson, Bromberg, Salcedo, Bullock, and Sano waiting in the wings. Oh, and the team will be both competitive AND profitable because they avoided the fire sales you are witnessing right now for many franchises with less fiscal discipline. And exactly which franchises outbid the Twins for Kepler and Sano? There aren’t a half-dozen teams in baseball that allocate more capital to player development, and almost none that invest it more wisely.
I always cheer against the Yankees, yet maybe it would be best if the Yankees did win several World Series in a row, because might be the only way we’ll get a salary cap.
That said, I want the Twins to win it all next year.
There aren’t a half-dozen teams in baseball that allocate more capital to player development,
Got a reliable source for that, bop?
Yes, I was told this by a reliable former Twins GM during a lengthy conversation at a spring training game.
bop, I was told by an unreliable never been a GM that knows everything about what the Twins should and will do to win the World Series in 2010.
I had three posts pending moderation. None had vulgar language in them and NONE of them made it here. Any reason why?
Just you, Puckettfan506. Don’t take it personal. Happens to the best of us.
Offseason week #2. Twins do nothing. Or are they still plotting their strategy?
I believe they can’t do anything, as far as free agent moves/trades, until AFTER the World Series…
BTW, this site seems to be run by a people who don’t believe in free speech. I had 3 or 4 posts that apparently didn’t meet the standards, even though they were response to a rude post to me, pertinent to the article, and contained no vulgarity whatsover.
