Twins update: Valencia, Hughes, Buscher, Huber
Posted on November 13th, 2009 – 10:25 AMBy Joe Christensen
Today’s Twins notebook has updates on Joe Crede’s latest back surgery, Jarrod Washburn’s knee surgery, Joe Mauer’s latest Silver Slugger Award (no surprise), David Winfree’s free agent status, and word that the team will be unveiling new-look road uniforms on Monday, over the noon hour at IDS Crystal Court.
Hat tip to SethSpeaks.net on the Winfree item. Winfree was the Twins’ 2005 minor-league player of the year, and they are trying to re-sign him to a minor-league deal.
I’d heard the Twins were a little disappointed with 3B prospect Danny Valencia not playing winter ball.* It’s been said that the Twins can’t count on Valencia becoming next year’s Opening Day 3B when he wasn’t even promoted as a September call-up. But Twins GM Bill Smith isn’t ruling out anything.
(* - Got a tip that Valencia is indeed considering playing one month of winter ball in the Dominican Republic or Venezuela.)
“That will all be determined by Opening Day,” Smith said. “If [Valencia] goes to spring training, and has a great spring training, then that all takes care of itself. We don’t determine all that in November.”
Luke Hughes will be in the mix, too.
“Valencia started [2009] in Double-A, and Hughes started in Triple-A,” Smith said. “When Hughes got hurt, Valencia moved up and did very well in Triple-A. We moved Hughes back to Double-A so they could both play every day, and they both did well. We’ll use that as a springboard to spring training, and we’ll see how everybody does in spring training. I’m sure we’ll have a lot of spirited competition.”
Valencia is considered a better prospect. His combined stat line this year was .285/.337/.466.
Hughes’ combined stat line was .254/.335/.466. But keep in mind that one year earlier, Hughes was in the All-Star Futures Game, and posted a combined line of .309/.369/.524 in a season spent mostly at AA New Britain, with 29 games at Rochester. At 3B, Hughes isn’t as good as Valencia defensively, but don’t count out Hughes just yet.
I also want to clarify a couple of roster notes.
(*) Brian Buscher will become a minor-league free agent on Nov. 20. He was on the 40-man roster, and the Twins did not offer him a 2010 contract before outrighting him to Class AAA Rochester. With Valencia and Hughes, they can’t guarrantee Buscher playing time at third base in the high minors, so they want to give him a chance to explore his options.
(*) 1B Justin Huber also was trimmed from the 40-man roster and outrighthed to Class AAA Rochester, but the Twins had first offered him a 2010 contract. He cleared waivers, so he’s in the fold for next year, which gives the Twins some added depth in case Justin Morneau gets injured again. Huber was extremely well-liked at Rochester, so this is good news for the Twins.
119 Responses to "Twins update: Valencia, Hughes, Buscher, Huber"
First?
Yes!
If the Twins can get Crede to sign a similar contract like last seasons, he would be worth it.
As much as I loved Crede’s contributions defensively, it was a real downer at the end of the season when injuries kept his power out of the lineup. Even with his struggles at times, Crede was still a better option than Tolbert.
That said, I could live with Crede signing an incentive laden contract as a BACKUP to a guy like Valencia or Hughes. But in the long run I’d rather see them go after a more established (healthier) player.
Also, given Washburn’s “contributions” to the Tigers playoff push last season, I dunno if I can get excited about him in a Twins uni. I will gladly welcome Pavano back with open arms however.
IMO, even if Crede can only play at his best in 81+ games, he will still give us a parttime threat. Keep him.
Haaha….
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/11/nationals-looking-at-defensive-shortstops.html
Nationals are looking for a defensive SS to hold down the fort while they get one of their top prospects ready for the big-time.
Hmm. I wonder if the Twins have any defensive-minded SS’s with limited contract time left that could do just that…
Nah… 
I think it would be a good idea to resign Crede again. It most likely will be a low risk / high reward situation like last year. He could provide a good transition into Valencia or Hughes as well.
As for the rest of the Twins plans, I think they should focus mostly on pitching. If they don’t resign Pavano and Cabrera, i think they should add a mix of any two (or three, if we can afford it with Mauer’s extension) of these players: Erik Bedard, Justin Duchscherer, Rich Harden, Brett Myers, Jarrod Washburn, Mark Prior (I’m not kidding, they could take a flier on him for pretty cheap, I’d imagine), Felipe Lopez, Placido Polanco, Marco Scutaro, or Orlando Hudson (although I can’t imagine the Twins could offer the last two competitive enough contracts).
As for the Mauer situation, I think that he and his agent will probably wait until he has his AL MVP trophy on his mantle, as it may boost his salary a little.
“here is what I don’t get about suggestions to trade Nathan: who closes?”
My suggestion in the form of a two-word poem:
Sh*tty committee.
IF they bring back Crede, they better do a better job of having people on the bench, and of putting him on the DL sooner. Gardy played with NO BENCH and no 24 or 23 players way too often last year. The FO did a terrible job in its handling of Crede last year.
Aw, sane, that was beautiful.
Signing Crede to deal similar to last year’s would be a good thing, imo. He plays good D and has some pop, although he’s a low obp guy. Plus, he’s familiar with the organization now. The trick would be to keep him healthy for the stretch run.
When I saw the Twins were blowing out uniforms at the Dome for 50 percent off you knew that something was going to change for 2010. I know they had hinted there would be some changes. I wonder if the road uni is the only one of will there be others announced over the winter? I know they put the big Twins scripted logo up in Target Field, so that’s not changing much except for a small tweak. Still wish they would have kept the road blue MINNESOTA uni. I was disappointed when they dumped that one this past season. On the field, bring back Crede with Valencia getting more work at AAA.
I’m hoping for red away unis. I was just thinking about that the other day actually . It would be something new and different, at the very least.
Valencia told me a couple of weeks ago that he is going to play winter ball for a month.
i agree with mike, the team played way to much with a short bench because crede was and is made of glass. a player can’t help his team but he can hurt it when dinged up all the time like he was. i like the guy when healthy but he hasn’t played over a 100 games for 3 years now. better options out there that may actually play most of the year.
A rumor has the road uniform losing the stripes…
Getting off the concrete field in the Dome would have to benefit a guy like Crede. I’d be fine with bringing him back on a similar contract. I just don’t see many other options out there that would get the same kind of player for a 1 year deal.
I hate it when a player is in the running for minor league player of the year; four years after winning minor league player of the year.
“Sh*tty committee.”
I’ve got to think that the Twins could find a closer from the number of arms they have. Anyone from Guerrier, Mijares, Rauch, Neshek, or even a failed starter like Liriano could fill the closer role well enough.
As I said in the last thread - if you can get good value for Nathan, I see no reason to NOT trade him. $11.25 Million is a lot to pay for 70 innings of work.
as I said on the last thread - Perkins has the stuff to be a closer. yes, I said it 
Nothing wrong with listening to offers on Nathan, but this is the wrong year to be ’selling’ on a closer. There are just way too many other options out there and even if you’ve got the best product, your potential return is low.
My preference would also be to NOT go in to a season where you honestly expect to make a serious title run without an established closer. You hold those sorts of auditions in a year with more moderate expectations, imo.
“I just don’t see many other options out there that would get the same kind of player for a 1 year deal.”
I was actually thinking about this, and a name I haven’t seen connected to the Twins at all, but I think would make a lot of sense, would be Scott Rolen.
It’s pretty obvious that the Reds want to shed payroll. They are said to be listening to offers on Phillips, Arroyo, Harang - basically , anyone making significant money.
Rolen is in the last year of his 8 year, $90 Million deal that he signed back in 03. He’s set to make $11 Million, but depending on the quality of player(s) the Reds get back, they may be willing to eat some of that deal.
While Rolen would probably only be expected to play in 120 games or so, he still plays solid defense and posted a .305/.368/.455 line last year. He is a right handed bat that the lineup could use, and seems to be a bit more reliable than Crede.
So, he would cost more than Crede - either in straight contract, or the cost of a prospect - but the risk seems to be smaller.
Idea: (in the trade Nation scenario) Install Liriano as closer, but tell him it is okay to snap off those wicked 2006 sliders as needed, because he will only be pitching 70 innings, one at a time.
IMO the suggestion of Liriano as closer has merit. He has proven he can overpower batters when he throws in an unrestricted manner. I don’t mean this derogatorily, but he might not have enough years left in his career to wrap his mind around the program the team has got him on. You can just see the confusion in the kid. I bet his whole focus is on mechanics. From my perspective the kid’s not in the moment. He’s lookin in instead of out. And his new motion is not that different from the old one. Might be the best thing for him and the team to unrestrain him and limit him to 20/25 pitches every couple of days. Let his body deal with smaller amounts of repair more often. He won’t forget the things Andy has taught him, but when he gets his confidence back, and gets in the moment, maybe he’ll be able to apply these things better.
I don’t get the trading of Nathan at all. This team has a shot to do something in the playoffs if it adds a legit SP. It was 5th in runs scored last year. It has 2 star hitters and 3 very good hitters. It has 2-3 number 2/3 type starters. Why weaken the team? I don’t get that thinking at all. Go for it while M&M&K&S&C are healthy (ooops, may have missed that chance last year - Morneau and Nathan weren’t healthy this year….). If the Rays taught this team anything, it’s that your window is tiny (unless you have a ton of money to spend). I don’t understand the desire to weaken the team right now.
Uniforms:
I have seen a pic of a new road hat- TC with a red bill. However I have head the M hat will be an alternate hat.
Keep hearing the pinstripes are gone as well. I am trying to get more info but no one is sharing anything.
Anyone on here have more details? I need to know what my new authentic road Mauer is going to look like
I’m sort of a traditionalist, I guess.
I’m hoping the Twins new uniforms don’t feature light blue (too girly) or multicolored hats (just too much). I also hope the pinstripes stay. I hated the 70’s looks the first time around, and hope they don’t bring them back.
Give me pinstripes and solid deep colors every time.
mike i think the point is you don’t trade nathan UNLESS you are improving the team. some people seem to think that the desire is to just get ride of him, however imo if the return is right it would make sense and save payroll that could be used to fill other holes.
with all the closers on the market it’s highly unlikely that he would bring a good return.
I just don’t see many other options out there that would get the same kind of player for a 1 year deal.
I’m starting to get the feeling the Twins are getting tired of signing 1-year guys at 3B and want somebody that can hold down the fort for a while.
It would be a great step toward further demonstrating to Mauer that they do in fact have a plan for what they want to do with any additional years he may sign on for with the Twins.
I don’t get the trading of Nathan at all.
Patrick Reusse got a bug up his a** about Nathan’s blown save in Game 2 against NYY and in his typical “All or Nothing” fashion decided it means the team must be blown up and Nathan the first piece to go.
This gave those Twins “fans” who can’t remember beyond a few weeks ago something to rally around.
“I’m starting to get the feeling the Twins are getting tired of signing 1-year guys at 3B and want somebody that can hold down the fort for a while.
It would be a great step toward further demonstrating to Mauer that they do in fact have a plan for what they want to do with any additional years he may sign on for with the Twins.”
Surely Joe knows there cant be a long term solution at every poition. Heck, even the Yanks have some quesion marks for next year.
I’d say it sends a stronger message to Mauer if they do sign Crede. Signing a gold glove level 3B sounds more apealing than handing the job to a kid who has 2 months of experience above double-A.
Of course, my opinion + $1 will get you something off the value menu at McD’s….
Boy, some people on this board must have been drinking pretty heavily this morning. Liriano as a closer? In order to be a closer you have to throw strikes. Throwing strikes was not exactly one of Liriano’s strengths this year. And Perkins as a closer? There isn’t even a response that can fully describe the stupidity of that comment.
I suppose whether the club looks to sign someone as a one year stop gap or whether they try an fill 3B long term depends on what the FO really thinks of Valencia. If they think he can do the job, I see no reason why the club should try and sign someone long term.
Btw, the team hasn’t always lloked for one-year stop-gaps. Remember Mike Lamb? I think the Twins pay him the final $100K this year.
Er, “looked,”, not “lloked.” Yeesh.
We do indeed have the perfect SS to trade to the Nats, and they have exactly what we need in return. Punto and cash to the Nats for several gallons of red ‘Nats’ colored paint. We have lots of Target logos that will need touch up.
ES16 -
I would have to agree that Perkins as closer would be ridiculous. A pitcher who can’t get batters out does NOT fit a closer role at all. However, Liriano, if the Twins decide against trading him this offseason, imo could be nasty in the back of the pen if he can learn to spot his pitches better. I would suggest that the team groom him into that role this spring. As for trading Nathan, I am not completely opposed to the idea, however, I would have to stand with Bill Smith, saying that we’d have to be completely blown away with an offer from a team with talent to go around and a desperate need for a closer (best example this offseason: Phillies, although I don’t think they would be enamored to trade Cole Hamels for Nathan) to make the trade. I say re-evaulate this situation next year (while being open to offers this year), if the market for relievers is thinner.
I love how people call ideas ridiculous without actually providing reasons why.
Liriano? really? his fastball and slider are not and never will be what they used to be. his control is a serious issue and will be until he gets the mechanics down. he doesn’t go after hitters and that is what you want in a closer.
Perkins on the other hand has a mean streak. he pitches inside, has a great fastball and solid slider. he CAN get hitters out as shown by his hot start eaerlier in the year before he slowed down a bit then was injured. the guy has always shown he can put it together for a few innings (the majority of his bad starts are where he imploded after the 5th inning). imagine what he can do if you just hand him the ball for one inning.
Heck, even the Yanks have some quesion marks for next year.
The Yankees also have the money to afford continual stopgaps because they have All-Stars in most of their long term positions.
I’d be more comfortable with a revolving door at any single position if the rest of the team was A-Rod, Jeter, Tex, etc…
But with the Twins, I’d prefer a plan where they get some quality YOUNG talent…and then as those players mature you bring in the pricier vets to fill in the gaps.
If he’s healthy, Crede is a quality 3B. But as we saw last year that is a HUGE if.
Either way, the Twins are going to have to be prepared for a team without Joe Nathan. I certainly hope Neshek can bounce back and fill that gap. I’ve got my fingers crossed.
My problem with Perkins isn’t his physical ability, it’s what’s between the ears. I don’t know that we’d really want someone as, well, whatever Perkins is, as a closer.
medschoolmatt,
Perkins will be lucky if Gardy let’s him throw batting practice next year, after the stunts he pulled.
P.S. I think you are confusing a mean streak with being an A-hole, which is a reputation that has followed him for many years.
“After signing a one-year, $2.5 million deal with the Twins, Crede earned another $1.5 million in incentives, as injuries limited him to 367 plate appearances. He batted .225 with 15 home runs and 48 RBI.
“The great thing about Joe is you’re hiring on a one-year contract,” Boras said. “It’s not often you’re going to get that level of a player to sign for one year.”
Yeah right Scott - typically you wouldn’t get a .225 hitter for a year - but would be wiser to put them on a week-to-week contract.
matt,
I think you should listen to ES16. He seems to know a lot bout being an A-hole.
Crap. Did I just say that out loud?
Loud and clear, Paul.
“Stuff” or ability to overpower hitters is NOT the key prerequisite to being an MLB closer.
Pitchers with nasty pitches exist (and frequently fail) at every level of every organization.
What a pitcher needs (foremost) to succeed as an MLB closer is HEUEVOS or CAJONES.
To make your body execute pitches the same in a game-deciding situation, as it does in a relaxing bullpen session, is what separates closers from their impersonators.
All those “other” Twins relievers aren’t closers for a reason…….just like all those other PGA card carriers aren’t Woods, Tiger.
Very good point sane.
“Boy, some people on this board must have been drinking pretty heavily this morning. Liriano as a closer? In order to be a closer you have to throw strikes. Throwing strikes was not exactly one of Liriano’s strengths this year.”
This year, as a 25 year old, Liriano struck out 122 batters while walking 65 batters in 136.2 innings.
In 2000, as a 25 year old, Nathan struck out 61 batters while walking 63 batters in 93.1 innings.
Baseball history is littered with successful closers that failed as starters. We don’t need to look further than the man who takes the mound for our favorite squad nearly every save situation.
Liriano doesn’t need to have his devastating slider to be an effective closer. It would sure help, but it isn’t necessary. There is even a little bit of evidence that Liriano would be effective in a situation where he only sees a batter once a game -
Line against Liriano for opponents in 2009 -
1st PA in a game - .221/.313/.387
2nd PA in a game - .315/.395/.517
Even over his entire career, his OPS against jumps from .634 to .795 the second time a batter sees him in a game.
It doesn’t seem that far fetched to think that Liriano might have the ability to be a closer.
Again, it’s not the physical ability that concerns me, it’s what’s between the ears. Or, as sane put it, it’s about CAJONES.
“All those “other” Twins relievers aren’t closers for a reason…….just like all those other PGA card carriers aren’t Woods, Tiger.”
Actually sane, I’m gonna disagree with you here. The reason the other Twins relievers aren’t closers is because Ron Gardenhire doesn’t put them into the game in the 9th inning with a lead of 3, 2, or 1 run. That’s it, really. We have no idea how Matt Guerrier or Jose Mijares would do in that situation, because they have never been used in that situation. Guerrier has been behind Nathan on the closer picking order since he started pitching for the Twins in 2004. He has 1 save in each of the last 4 years.
While I agree that there is some sort of mental toughness that a closer must possess, to think that Nathan is the only one in the bullpen to have that toughness is a pretty big assumption.
Also, the reason that those other PGA card holders aren’t Tiger Woods isn’t because Tiger Woods has cajones. It’s because he is the best golfer in the world.
“IMO, even if Crede can only play at his best in 81+ games, he will still give us a parttime threat. Keep him.”
Agreed. But, two things:
1) We are in the same situation with Crede as we were one year ago…..maybe/maybe-not.
2) BS is aware of that. That’s why he said about Valencia, “…and has a great spring training, then that all takes care of itself.” So, in any case at the very least, BS isn’t counting on Crede to be awarded the job and wants to see how Valencia does in ST.
This line from Joes post seems to be loaded with significance.
“I’d heard the Twins were a little disappointed with 3B prospect Danny Valencia not playing winter ball”
This is a kid trying to break into the ML.
“It’s because he is the best golfer in the world.”
Not during the practice rounds.
But on the last nine holes of the tournament, while the other “leaders” are wetting themselves……..
“to think that Nathan is the only one in the bullpen to have that toughness is a pretty big assumption.”
To think that someone else in that bullpen can do it better, when only Nathan has proved himself, is ALSO “a pretty big assumption.”
Maybe even a bigger assumption.
Also:
When Nathan is replaced, it will be by a closer who has been test-driven in some closer situations.
Not after Nathan has been jettisoned during the off-season with no tested heir apparent chosen………and only an audition list available on the roster.
sane -
RE : Tiger
I’m sure he has large cajones. He also is just better at the game of golf than other people. He drives the ball further than most, has a short game better than most, and putts better than most. Those that drive better than he does have worse short games. Those with better short games can’t drive the fairways like he does. Etc.
But that’s besides the point of this blog.
RE : Nathan -
I’m not suggesting for a moment that Guerrier or Mijares could do the job better than Nathan. I’m suggesting they can do the job, and they can do it for $10 Million less.
Nathan has proven he can handle the closer position. He is one of the better ones in the entire game. But at one point he was just another arm in a bullpen. In 2003 he finished only 9 of 78 games he pitched in. He got no saves. Had a WHIP of 1.063 and a K/BB ratio of 2.52. The Twins dealt for him, made him the closer, and he has succeeded ever since.
Last year, Matt Guerrier finished only 15 of the 79 games he pitched in. Got one save. Had a WHIP of .969 and a K/BB ratio of 2.94. Why can’t he be the next Joe Nathan? Or Jose Mijares, who had a WHIP of 1.184 and a K/BB ratio of 2.39?
Nathan is a very good relief pitcher. As such, he is a valuable contributor to the Twins. However, since he has the ‘closer’ tag, he is getting paid more than he is probably worth. If you can get a team to give you a good package of young, cost controlled talent that helps you fill a hole or two on your team, why wouldn’t you do it? There are other options on your team that you can turn to to close games, and while they may not do it as well as Nathan, they could probably do it well enough to make it worth the move.
To me it’s not so much “HEUEVOS or CAJONES” (but I know what sane means), or like Boneyard says “what’s between the ears.” Both fall short of apt for me. To me it’s confidence. Trusting your stuff. AND comfort with your mechanics that leads to command. With Liriano, he made the ML and had tremendous success with the violent mechanics he had, and probably grew up with. His command/stuff ratio was skewed way towards stuff. But it worked. I’m not a doctor but it makes sense to me that his arm would hold up better with shorter periods of trauma. Obviously they couldn’t throw him in as closer now. But like Eric mentioned they could start grooming him.
To me the idea holds charm.
I forgot I key component to my argument. That he gets turned loose and reverts to the mechanics he feels are natural.
“Why can’t he be the next Joe Nathan? Or Jose Mijares, who had a WHIP of 1.184 and a K/BB ratio of 2.39?”
Maybe they can, and maybe they can’t because of inability to withstand the pressure of win-loss situations.
My point is that assuming they can, because of their “stuff” and low-stress situational success is risky.
Someone needs to slap Gardy and make him “try” others in those situations.
Until he does, the closer capabilities of the rest of the bullpen are UNKNOWN.
I’d like to see the Twins give Liriano another chance at being a starter. In general, starters are more valuable than relievers and Liriano has had some success as a starter. The Liriano of the 2nd half of 2008, not even the Liriano of 2006, would be a huge boost to this team. That being said, I think Liriano could potentially be a closer (I’m not particularly “charmed” by the notion, but I’m not opposed to it, either), it’s Perkins that I think would be a disaster.
The unis: just another case of marketing. At least the TWins have the excuse of a new home. The DBacks down here just up and changed from the weird purple to “Sedona Red.” The entire line, everything!!!
Old news: I’ll have to shop around for a new moniker now that Mr. Gomez is gone. At least I can go to Brewers ST games and wave at him and say some of us did like him a lot.
I’m OK with signing Crede to another incentive laden contract. He won’t have to dive onto that carpet that must be bone-jarring to land on. Love how Boras is now a medical expert! LOL
I think Reusse actually started making noises about trading Nathan long before he blew the ALDS game. Liriano as a closer is a possibility. Can’t figure out that kid, he was good in ‘08 and then couldn’t put it together this year. Last year he was upset at not being brought up so he could get his tenure. This year he looked like he was afraid to blow out his elbow again.
Have to agree with the A-H assessment of Perkins vs. mean streak. What might the Nats give us for Perkins and Punto???? Hmmmmmmmmmm.
“What might the Nats give us for Perkins and Punto????”
How about the Bras D’Honneur?
See: http://listoftheday.blogspot.com/2008/03/foreign-fingers.html
“My point is that assuming they can, because of their “stuff” and low-stress situational success is risky.”
Just because it isn’t the 9th inning doesn’t mean a situation is low-stress. Often times, I have to assume that a 3 run lead in the 9th against the 7-8-9 hitters is less stress than the 8th against 4-5-6.
And I guess my point is the Twins have a LOT of options for the closer position. They have Guerrier. Mijares. Rauch. Liriano. Neshek. Slama. A combination of all of them. Go to a committee, and pitch the 9th exactly like you would the 7th and 8th, going with the best matchups.
Here’s one for a good laugh:
I thought of Bobby Keppel looking mighty mean even when tossed into some really dicey situations this past season and decided to check out his stats for closer potential, on the Twins website. I click his name and up pops a photo of Anthony Swarzak!!! Nah, can’t be a closer when your own team’s website gives you that little respect! LOL
Sane, definitely the Concha. Even though Wash, DC is not Chile, there’s something Italianesque about that salute. Perfect for Punto if maybe not as much for a Golden Gopher.
Someone needs to slap Gardy and make him “try” others in those situations
Isn’t that how closers are typically groomed?
They start out as bullpen guys and slowly prove themselves in high-pressure situations to the point that once the original closer is no longer available they are then given that role until they prove they can’t actually transition to it.
“Just because it isn’t the 9th inning doesn’t mean a situation is low-stress”
In a 9th inning save situation, the entire efforts of your teammates have given you the lead and you are in a position to p*$$ it all away.
And your teammates may not get another chance to rebound. (bottom of the inning)
No such stress available in earlier innings.
“No such stress available in earlier innings.”
So, let’s say it’s the 8th inning. Your team has a 1-0 lead on the road, but your starter is gassed. Runners on 2nd and 3rd, none out, and your opponent has their closer warming up in the pen. Next three up for the opponent are the 4-5-6 hitters. Crowd is amped up.
Bullpen pitcher A comes in to the situation, induces a strike out, a pop up, and then a grounder to third.
Your team goes out, and scores 2 more runs in the top of the 9th against the opposition.
Now it’s the bottom of the 9th, your team has a three run lead, and are looking at the bottom third of the opponents order.
Which inning was more stressful?
What’s everybody’s thoughts about Nathan this past season? Was his arm bothering him enough that he changed his pitch selection with bad results in several notable games? If so, will he bounce back next year after that clean-up surgery? Or did he have bad results in those games for other reasons?
I know the clean-up surgery was done with a purpose.
Probably wasn’t to help him get girls.
“What’s everybody’s thoughts about Nathan this past season?”
Joe Nathan has had pretty much the exact same season every year since 2004, excluding his great season of 2006. I don’t think there was any difference this past season than in any others - again, excluding 2006.
Pete,
I remember his velocity the first couple years as closer was FB 96/98 and slider 89/91. I don’t think he’s thrown quite that hard recently. And he added a 2-seamer, curve and a chageup to his arsenal.
Beisbol-a-GO-GO
I think Joe Nathan is human and much like Mauer and Morneau he’s capable of slumping for whatever reason.
When a 20 to 30 year-old slumps, you think it’s a slump. When a 35 year-old does it, you wonder whether it’s time to stick a fork in him. Whether Nathan’s velocity was down, I can’t say for sure. He did show a reluctance to throw the fastball, though.
“When a 20 to 30 year-old slumps, you think it’s a slump. When a 35 year-old does it, you wonder whether it’s time to stick a fork in him.”
Well said boneyard. I think some players are held to unreal standards. For all we know Joe was having personal problems outside of baseball.
When a 20 to 30 year-old slumps, you think it’s a slump. When a 35 year-old does it, you wonder whether it’s time to stick a fork in him.
That could have been accurate, if Nathan did not need surgery during the off-season… I suspect that those bone chips were a good reason for his performance late in the season.
I’m baffled. Nathan blew a handful of saves. He was awesome again last year.
What, exactly, could you get for a 35 year old relief pitcher that makes that much money, even if you wanted to throw the dice and risk it on others? They don’t need more bats, and you aren’t going to get a number 1 type pitcher for a relief pitcher.
What did he not do, that you are so sure someone else could do? What do you really think you could get for him (and his salary)?
I mean, Mauer will NEVER have more value, by your logic we should trade him now.
I wonder if the grass will help Crede’s back - I haven’t seen any of that sort of discussion. Maybe I missed it.
In general, won’t the grass make everything slow-down a bit…I will be interesting to see the defensive stats at the end of next year.
I don’t think Crede should be resigned for next year. He is on the wrong side of 30, he continues to be injury prone, and he went through his what, third back surgery this year?? I mean jeez..
The only way to bring Crede back is as a backup, and a non-roster invite to spring training. I like Crede, but I think it’s impossible to put our hope on him.
I think right now that offensively Felipe Lopez would be the number one guy I would look at and Pedro Feliz, but Feliz is more of a stop gap again. Lopez could keep Punto out of the lineup.
Pitching wise, I would like to see them go after Harden, and Ben Sheets. I would also like to see if we could get Mark Mulder and or Mark Prior to minor league deals to see what kind of shape they are in.
I think with Liriano we are best to try and trade him while he still has a little mystery of hope for the 2nd year after a Tommy John injury to cover some of his warts. We might not get a lot for him, but at this point in time I’ve not seen anything since June of 2006 that has me excited about Liriano… however that game against Clemens in Houston will be one of my greatest memories in baseball.
From the little we were told back in mid September the team and Perkins are not on the same page. With him having shown some signs of being able to pitch at this level (inconsistent as heck but he has shown more than Lohse ever did. Think we can get anything for him?
“Now it’s the bottom of the 9th, your team has a three run lead, and are looking at the bottom third of the opponents order.
Which inning was more stressful?”
The inning in which the pitcher’s failure ends the game in a loss for his teammates.
The 9th.
The inning in which the pitcher’s failure ends the game in a loss for his teammates.
That stress would be self-induced by the pitcher himself not the initial situation he began the inning with.
“While Rolen would probably only be expected to play in 120 games or so, he still plays solid defense and posted a .305/.368/.455 line last year.”
Pete D, why did he have that miserable finish after going to the Reds. 40 games, .270?
And why has his HR production since 2006 been so dismal? He’ll be 35 next season.
He did bounce back in extra base hits last year though. And his fielding looks very steady, along with 5 GG’s throughout the years.
mike wants wins says:
“I don’t get the trading of Nathan at all. This team has a shot to do something in the playoffs if it adds a legit SP. It was 5th in runs scored last year. It has 2 star hitters and 3 very good hitters. It has 2-3 number 2/3 type starters. Why weaken the team? I don’t get that thinking at all… If the Rays taught this team anything, it’s that your window is tiny (unless you have a ton of money to spend). I don’t understand the desire to weaken the team right now.”
The problem is that Nathan WAS a weakness, and not a strength. And, like someone pointed out earlier, if the PHILLIES tought us anything, it’s that you don’t need a great closer to reach the WS. Need I, and really don’t make me remind Me, of Nathan’s last two Septembers, and last October? Yuck. If they don’t trade him now, they will never get quality back for him. He’s going down hill. Most, in fact, almost all closers do. It just seems to be the way of things.
Very, VERY, few closers are great for their entire carrier. Rivera, Hoffman are exceptions.
Lidge, Gagne, Aguilera, Putz, and Paplebon are 5 that come to mind (and now Nathan). All had some great years, but all broke down and lost ‘it’. I’d Almost rather have Eddie closing next year than Nathan. Almost.
No one might believe me, but I warned this site GOING INTO the season that I would like to trade Nathan…or maybe it was even the trade deadline last year…can’t remember exactly, but I know it was before this year.
Lastly, if they trade him, and I don’t expect them to, he might even have 1 good year with his new team, but it willn’t carry of into seaon 2. And he’s not going to have another Great year here ever again, imo.
Night.
***
Trade Joe Nathan
I think Joe Nathan is human and much like Mauer and Morneau he’s capable of slumping for whatever reason.
You’re right. We should trade Mauer and Morneau too.
Where’s Reusse…we can probably get him to champion this notion as well.
I’d Almost rather have Eddie closing next year than Nathan. Almost.
And thus you invalidate your entire argument. Even in his “now we have to trade him” season, he still was a better closer than Guardado was.
“Very, VERY, few closers are great for their entire carrier. Rivera, Hoffman are exceptions”
Very few ANYTHINGS are great for their entire career.
That is why careers end.
If not, athletes (and the rest of us) would last forever, and retirement would become unnecessary and obsolete.
tK2 - we’ll just be disagreeing on this. Nathan was great last year, not a weakness. He was one of the best relief pitchers in all of baseball last year.
Do I like how Gardy uses him, in the 9th only, even if the 3, 4, 5 hitters are upin the 8th? No. But that doesn’t mean he’s not a great pitcher.
Is his salary too much as a percent of the total they spend? Probably. But, that doesn’t mean they’d be better off on the field with him gone.
“Pete D, why did he have that miserable finish after going to the Reds. 40 games, .270?
And why has his HR production since 2006 been so dismal? He’ll be 35 next season.
He did bounce back in extra base hits last year though. And his fielding looks very steady, along with 5 GG’s throughout the years.”
I assume he ended poorly because players have months that are poor. Small sample size and all that. But even with his .270 average, he still had an OPS+ of 102, while playing above average defense.
Scott Rolen isn’t the same player he was 7 years ago. That’s for certain. But even 35 year old Scott Rolen should be an above average player, and that has a lot of value. Is he worth $11 million or whatever he’s going to make next year? Maybe, maybe not. But he will probably be more valuable than a Crede or Feliz, and won’t cost the team the types of contracts that Beltre and Figgins will command.
If the Twins believe in Valencia, but feel that he is a year away from really contributing, I think a trade for Rolen would do them good. It would be a change from the typical Twins one-year stop gaps.
Pete D, appreciate your response.
I don’t know that much about Rolen, so trying to learn more.
Just wondering if he’s slowing down — which is kind of okay — or if he has a chronic injury thing. Like you said, he’d be good for about 120 games.
If he just needs a day off an average 1-1/2 times a week, and if his defensive range is still okay, I think you’re on to something.
Another explanation for his late-season funk is he wasn’t very happy to land with the dead-end Reds after hitting .320 for the Jays last season.
Could very well be, too, that he’s given up the ghost on hitting HR’s. A good 2-hole guy? He hasn’t struck out much since 2004. And his OBP is about .350 the past 4 seasons.
Can he bunt?!!! It might come down to THAT!
And lastly, I think it’s bull to put hopes on Valencia — a guy who’s only been in AAA a couple months with his approximate .280 BA there, and who isn’t ready for MLB so he has to play winter ball.
Wake up, people.
Gotta get a Crede, Rolen, or Beltre or someone like them. Then be satisfied with the “hot hand” (hottest bat) at 2B among Punto, Casilla, and Tolbert.
Assuming Pridie (or the like) and a backup catcher, that will take care of the position players for 2010 except for the last bench player — the 14th guy who is a good pinch hitter.
Dye? Wishful thinking, I know. But he could be the RH DH, and play right field when Cuddy is giving time off to Morneau at 1B, which I hope to see a lot this season so MVP doesn’t typically wreck himself down the stretch.
Of course it depends on whether Dye would accept the role and how much $$ is needed — two big if’s.
BTW, here’s a new topic for you Machiavelian types.
Assuming the Mauer thing gets done and we get that good third baseman, I’d like to see a contract extension for Morneau get done in ST. The timing couldn’t be better for both parties.
Morneau is at his low ebb, so the price will never be cheaper. And the tandem extension along with Mauer would turn Morneau on, help him accept more days off, and jell him into the new stadium as a born-again MVP. And the Twins could tell Mauer during contract talks that they promise to extend Morneau this off-season, thus legitimately helping to keep Mauer’s asking price down.
And all that Santana-Hunter suspicion re Twins FO commitment would be deep-sixed permanently.
romer -
Rolen does have a bit of a repuation of being injury prone. He will probably spend some time on the DL in the upcoming season. Last season he sustained a concussion after getting hit in the head a couple of days after being traded. That may be the explanation for some of his poor hitting in the second half as well.
Looking at his game log from last year, he only missed more than 1 consecutive game 3 times all last year - he missed 2 games in a row while playing for the Jays, missed 14 games for the Reds after his concussion, and then 3 games late in September. The year before, he spent 2 stints on the DL - one at the start, and another in August.
If I were to go after Rolen, I would do so expecting to get only 120 games or so out of him. Which is pretty much what I think the Twins were hoping to get out of Crede this past season. Unfortunately, Crede only gave them 90.
Morneau is signed through 2013. I don’t think contract extension is on anyone’s mind.
“…help him accept more days off…”
By that, I meant he’ll be foolishly urging himself to play fulltime to prove up that he can be the iron man, advance his career, and take care of the business of setting himself up for a big contract extension, blah blah.
And he’ll screw himself into the ground again. You know he will. The guy gives it his all, and he injures himself doing it.
So, any money spent on Dye really would be money to ensure that MVP will be as such during September — the absence of which has now been the final, foremost barrier to the Twins advancing to and through the playoffs.
“Morneau is signed through 2013.”
It’s possible Mauer will get extended to 2015 (a 5-year extension to his current contract).
Just thinking if Morneau is fully recovered in ST, why not extend him out to 2015 as well. After all, the guy’s been the MVP. And he’s probably underpaid as well, considering. And his contract may look puny or at least inadequate compared to Mauer’s.
And this is the guy who’s been the team MVP for a few years! And who got 100 RBI’s in 5 months this year.
He deserves it.
And it’ll be great publicity…….These are the boys who shared an apartment and who are now the best pair of players on any team.
Take THAT, you Yankees-FA-signing superpigs!!!!
(I’m thinking Machiavelian here…..Make a big splash, Twins FO.)
this is what the twins need to do 1st base justin morneau 2nd orlando hudson ss- jj hardy 3rd base danny valenica left field young cneter field denard span rf micheal cuddyer dh kubel starting pitcher rich harden carl pavano scott baker nick blackburn kevin slowey reserved manship duensing swarzack trade liriano boof bonser and alexi casila perhaps for dan uggla
I would wait to see how Morneau has recovered before signing him to an extension.
Ive heard alot about Can Uggla but somehow it seems more vital to get a solid one year stopgap at 3rd. Punto would be okay at 2nd, with Casilla relieving him in down times. I would be happy with the plus defense that a Mauer, Mornaeu, Punto, Hardy and maybe Beltre infield would offer. That would really benefit a groundball pitcher such as a Blackburn…
Are there anymore groundball pitchers on the market that could benefit from that type of inf D? That would definitely take away from some of the lessened pressure on the outfield, you would think…
Dan Uggla, i meant. But my typo might be valid if the Twins get Uggla and he blows… LOL.
Can Uggla.
romer -
I’m sure each side would like to renegotiate a new deal between Morneau and the Twins. However, I don’t think the Twins want to to give him a raise - especially since he just had back surgery and he’s already signed for the next four years. And I don’t think that Morneau wants to take a pay cut - he knows his value is lower now than if he had played an entire healthy season.
Again, Morneau is signed for 4 more years. Perhaps in 2 years you can start a petition to extend the deal, but I doubt either party is very interested in trying to work out another 2 year extension.
I agree with Pete. Considering after those 4 years are over he will be on the wrong side of 30 as well.
“Are there anymore groundball pitchers on the market that could benefit from that type of inf D?”
Actually, the pitcher who led all qualifying players in ground ball percentage is a free agent. However Joel Piniero’s numbers this past season don’t match up with the rest of his career. Did he figure it out at age 31? Change something in his delivery? Maybe. I’d be afraid of giving him a large contract and finding out it was a career year.
“…I don’t think the Twins want to to give him a raise…”
“…he will be on the wrong side of 30 as well.”
And American war veterans have been screwed out of what they deserve too, but recently have gotten more. And airline pilots have lost their pensions, so we won’t get good airline pilots anymore.
That’s life.
I was just trying to think outside the box, keep the heroes, escape the rat race.
The Yankees are about to dump their WS MVP, for cryin’ out loud.
Why must Jarrod Washburn ALWAYS be on the twins’ radar? He had a surgery? Hoo-ray!
=/
To address the 3 of you who disagreed with me:
T says:
TK(2): I’d Almost rather have Eddie closing next year than Nathan. Almost.
“And thus you invalidate your entire argument. Even in his “now we have to trade him” season, he still was a better closer than Guardado was.”
1. I said almost (twice, actually), and 2. I should clarify: Eddie of when he was closing, not last year Eddie. 3. Yes, for most of his carrier Joe Was better than Eddie Ever was…but not now by much…didn’t Nathan Break the Twins record for saves this year…previously set by Eddie?
sane says:
“Very, VERY, few closers are great for their entire carrier. Rivera, Hoffman are exceptions”
“Very few ANYTHINGS are great for their entire career. That is why careers end.”
True, I guess. However, for every 1 closer (this really extends to all relief pitching) you can name who was great their entire* carrier, you can probably name (at least) 10 players/starting pitchers who were great Their entire carriers. Seriously. Think back over history and start saying some of the greats who played. How many are closers?
*Almost no body is great their ENTIRE carrier, like having a couple lousy seasons when they played for another team at 39+ years old, but for the most part…Hall of Famers I guess. Joe Nathan pitched well for 5 years or so. Not long enough to be in that group.
mike wants wins says:
TK(2) - “we’ll just be disagreeing on this. Nathan was great last year, not a weakness. He was one of the best relief pitchers in all of baseball last year.”
I didn’t think he was. Statistically, he was pretty good, a save is a save, 9th, 2 out, nobody on, or bases loaded). But he made me nervous…well, a lot anyway. But okay, you can disagree.
“Do I like how Gardy uses him, in the 9th only…”,
But, but, Isn’t that the definition of a closer?…!?
…”even if the 3, 4, 5 hitters are up in the 8th? No. But that doesn’t mean he’s not a great pitcher.”
Nathan has proven that even when he’s going good, he’s a 1 inning closer, not 2. Also the 3, 4, 5, hitters sunk Nathan, and by extention the Twins, in the playoffs…in the 9th. It took a miracle…many miracles to win game 163. Nathan, if I remember right, had 1 inning with bases loaded 0 out and bases loaded 1 out, I think.
You’d have to check, but he was hardly lights out and, by all rights, should’ve taken the loss in that game, maybe twice. (Sorry, just can’t remember how it all went down).
Feel free to disagree, but that’s how I see it.
Sorry for long post.
Night.
***
Trade Joe Nathan.
didn’t Nathan Break the Twins record for saves this year…previously set by Eddie?
A closer has no control over how many save situations he’ll be handed.
Well here we go: The Twins are in talks with Orlando Cabrera to play 2b.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/11/rogers-on-white-sox-gamel-cabrera-yankees.html#comments
^end of the world is near…
Would OCab at 2nd be a bad thing? offensively it would be an improvement over the projected options (Tolbert/Casilla)
“Would OCab at 2nd be a bad thing?”
Probably.
Cabrera will be 35 next year, and hasn’t played any meaningful innings at second base since 1998. He’s already below average offensively, and I don’t see how he’s going to get better as he ages. His defense at short was some of the worst in the league last year, and while it may improve by moving to 2nd, he will most likely be a below average second baseman as well.
I just don’t see the benefit in bringing Cabrera back. They have several players that fit the same general mold - light hitters with plus defense - already under contract for next year. I’d much rather the Twins go out and get a significant upgrade at either second or third.
“…over the projected options (Tolbert/Casilla)”
Hey I thought Gardy was projecting Punto at 2B. And BS says they’re gonna look at Valencia in ST for 3B and Crede is in the mix there as well.
I don’t know of any reports about Tolbert or Casilla being channeled to either 2B or 3B.
“He’s already below average offensively”
If that means that ONLY slightly less than half the MLB 2B are better hitters than Cabrera, than he is good enough to keep.
In fact, that would make him our best in-house offensive option at 2B.
If that means that ONLY slightly less than half the MLB 2B are better hitters than Cabrera, than he is good enough to keep.
In fact, that would make him our best in-house offensive option at 2B.
If you ranked the top 30 second basemen by OPS, Cabrera would have checked somewhere around 25th.
Oh yeah, he’s definitely a keeper!
T says:
TK(2): didn’t Nathan Break the Twins record for saves this year…previously set by Eddie?
“A closer has no control over how many save situations he’ll be handed.”
Yes, I know that, but my point was Eddie DID save 40 some- maybe like 45- games. Brad Lidge, among others, couldn’t do that if he had 80 opportunities last year. Eddie was an effective closer for a year or two that always gave everyone heart attacks, but Ususally got the job done. Problem was, he started slipping, becoming increasingly ineffective. I see the same thing happening with Nathan. Was great, now slipping.
***
Trade Joe Nathan
Juan Morillo is headed for Japan.
If you get rid of passionate players like Cabrera, Red-dog and Gomez, you will be left with the Minnesota Lettuce Heads.
With such high energy leaders like Morneau, Mauer, Kubel, Crede, Span, Harris, Hardy, Baker, Slowey, Blackburn and Guerrier, the Twins can fire their team doctor, and add a team coroner to monitor whether the players are still alive.
The players won’t require physicals.
They will require autopsies.
This team needs guys like Cabrera, badly.
Otherwise they will play with zero passion, and bore the bejesus out of their fans as they drop out of the race, like they were doing last year before Cabrera and Cuddyer restored their pulse.
Sane,
I don’t know about that. Delmon Young can really electrify the crowd with his dynamic personality.
ES16,
“I don’t know about that. Delmon Young can really electrify the crowd with his dynamic personality.”
How did I forget Delmon, when discussing passionate Twins players?
Sane,
“How did I forget Delmon, when discussing passionate Twins players?”
It’s because he’s the heartbeat of the team. You know your heart is beating, but you don’t think about it very often.
