Twins-White Sox: Afternoon Delight
Posted on May 30th, 2007 – 12:21 PMBy La Velle
Sorry for being late. It looks like Mauer will miss another week. I was trying to get to the bottom of things, and Terry Ryan was acting like I’ve put him on trial.
Luis Castillo has sore legs and needed today off. Throw in the off-day and he should be good to go by Friday.
Lineups
White Sox: 1. Erstad, CF. 2. Iguchi, 2B. 3. Thome, DH. 4. Dye, RF. 5. Konerko, 1B. 6. Mackowiak, LF. 7. Crede, 3B. 8. Cintron, SS. Hall, C. Pitching: Garland.
Twins: 1. Tyner, DH. 2. Punto, 2B. 3. Cuddyer, RF. 4. Morneau, 1B. 5. Hunter, CF. 6. Kubel, LF. 7. Cirillo, 3B. 8. Heintz, C. 9. Bartlett, SS. Pitching: Baker.
155 Responses to "Twins-White Sox: Afternoon Delight"
I’m watching the Gameday at work-any idea what the injury delay was all about during the top of the third? I’m tired of this team giving up so many early runs-Baker is getting shelled. A home run to Mackowiak? Seriously?
Heintz took a foul ball off his shoulder. He should be fine. Baker is getting hammered today. Balls are up in the zone. He didn’t help himself by not covering first base in the second inning. One of the things you deal with when you have a lot of young pitchers is that they will have days like today.
Baker trade?
What could you get for Baker?
Point taken. I’m just tired of it. It appears that Baker will always be a AAA all-star and a very mediocore big leager.
Sadly, Baker isn’t going to have much trade value while he’s doing his Jose Lima imitation. It’s puzzling–AAA should be good prep for facing Rob Mackowiak.
Speaking of bad pitching, I would love to hear Ozzie’s commentary on his pitcher going out with a 5-run lead and walking Bartlett and Punto. Cuddyer at least might hurt you if you groove one.
Baker, Ford, and a minor leaguer to be named for Morgan Ensberg. Solve a whole lot of problems.
When do we get to say “Told you so!” about Baker? The Ortiz/Ponson camp has been having too much fun saying it….
so, he has one bad start you’re ready to dump him? even Ponson and Ortiz got more opportunities than that. Baker’s no savior, but he is definitely an above average major league starter.
Baker has always had a good arm but the mental part of the game hurts him along the lines that Kyle Lohse struggled. He seems to lose faith in his own ability to throw his pitches for strikes and tries to nibble around the plate way too much. Boof had the same things going on last year and got sent back down and when he came back he changed his attitude. I agree that this is one bad outing and we gave the old guys a lot more than that.
Baker has had a lot more than one bad start. He has had 27 starts, with a record of 9-11. His Career ERA is over 5, and his WHIP is nearly 1.374. Every time that Baker has been up in the majors, he has been medicore at best, and usually pretty bad. Baker is destined to be a AAA pitcher the rest of his career. They need to trade him, they will find some club desperate/stupid enough to take him on as a 5th starter.
In Baker’s defense, neither he nor Garland got the strike calls at the knees so far today.
Baker continues to give the sub-Little-League effort:
1) No pitching inside
2) No velocity
3) Two-pitch pitcher
4) Can’t field his position
5) Isn’t driving off from the rubber
6) Blind adherence to the pace of the game: doesn’t seem to be upset with himself, or pacing the mound, or taking deep breaths, or possessed of any intensity.
Like the whole game experience is controlling him instead of the other way around. He looks baby-faced and green, like he’s afraid of making a fool of himself or in awe of the pressure on him.
Send Baker down; call up Slowey.
Or is it Heinz’s fault for not controlling and/or firing up his pitcher?
yes, Baker has had more than one start, but Ortiz and Ponson had years and years of starts that definitively proved they were terrible, below average major league pitchers. Baker is young and obviously has the potential to be better, bad starts notwithstanding.
Baker is still young. Seems a little early to give up on him just yet. We want to give up on him as a 2 pitch pichter but yet we want Garza who wants to throw nothing but a fastball. JimCrikket I agree the zone was a little small today. Glad Silva was not out there today because he really struggles when the zone is that small.
“”but he is definitely an above average major league starter.”"
Definately? An ‘above average starter’?
Someday Baker MAY BECOME an average starter. I think he will. But to say he is ‘definately’ an ‘above average starter’ is ridiculous.
This is the 1st real bad start of Baker this year. He deserves more of a chance then that.
Romer,
Slowey’s already being called up for Friday’s game.
As far as Baker, sheesh fellas — give the kid a break; he’s having a rough outing. His first two starts were quality ones. If it were up to me, we’d clone 4 more Santana’s and hold them all to that level, but the vast majority of major league 4th or 5th starters are going to get lit up now and then.
I could understand if this was his 5th/6th hammering of the year, but good God … tough crowd to please here! 
When has Baker ever proven he’s able to be an above average major league pitcher? Good start against the Yankees last year, good start in his debut this year…..and…….thats it.
Any pitcher that gets to this level should have a good game here and there. People were screaming for Ponson and Ortiz to be cut halfway through April. (And yes, even when Ortiz was still pitching well.) The fact that Baker consistently has trouble keeping his pitches down or just doesn’t listen to his coaches shows that he isn’t ready to be a regular starter in the bigs for a team that considers itself a contender. Last year was his ideal situation- 5th starter, little pressure, lots of veteran presence in the rotation, solid ballclub behind him- and he couldn’t keep the job. Maybe he deserves another start or two, but not many more like this one…
He’s done fine this year. 1 bad start out of 3 isn’t terrible. I don’t think you could get much for him at this point in a trade anyways, so give him 4 or 5 more starts, and then see where it goes from there.
People, I think everyone realizes that he has only had one bad start out of 3 this year, that is not the point. This is not his 3rd career start, it’s his 28th career start. You would think by this point he would start showing signs of improvement. If he ever hopes to succeed with the Twins, he has gotta get that 1.378 WHIP and 5.00 ERA under control.
The last two starts weren’t signs of improvement?
I don’t like having Kubel bunt right there. He hit a homerun last night and had another ball caught at the top of the fence. Why not let him swing away? Might work out but I would rather see us play for the big inning sometimes.
I understand it more when they are losing. If they were tied I’d be against the bunt for sure.
Heint with a big hit to tie it.
5 1/3 innings, 5 hits, 4 walks, and 3 ER is a GOOD start in people’s books?
REALLY!!!?!?!?!
Well Garland today has this for a line 6 innings, 5 hits, 5 walks, 6 runs. He would be considered a good pitcher but what about today?
JOSH, yeah-I-know Slowey’s coming up! Who are they sending down?
And, I like Baker….would love him to marry my daughter. Nothing personal.
But his fielding gaffe only represents how mentally ready he was to pitch today. So, what’s with him?
Does he need a better catcher handling him than Heinz? Does he have a dead arm today? (His velocity increased slightly as the game went on.)
He needs to toughen up.
Kirk,
“5 1/3 innings, 5 hits, 4 walks, and 3 ER is a GOOD start in people’s books?
REALLY!!!?!?!?!”
For a 4th or 5th starter — absolutely, unequivocally, YES
If my 4th or 5th starter leaves my team in a position to win the game, YES, that’s a good start. Are those Earth-shattering numbers? No. Then again, who’s reasonably expecting a 4th or 5th starter to put up Earth-shattering numbers? Baker’s second start — exactly what I’d like to see out of him. His first start — gravy. Today — expected to happen now and then; so long as it doesn’t happen too often.
When Scott Baker wins 18 games two years in a row with a 4 ERA, giving him an average of over 14 wins over the last 5 seasons with a 4.39 career ERA and WHIP of 1.363, then MAYBE we can compare the two.
Sorry Romer — didn’t read your post the way you intended.
I doubt we send down Baker … Ortiz was moved to the pen to make room for Slowey. Counteracts that move to send down another starter. I’m sure it will be one of the young relievers they just had up.
Yup, the White Sox should drop Garland. He’s horrible!
Was it Baker AND Garza for Soriano last year? With the lack of a right handed bat outside of Hunter (who WILL cool off), Baker inefficiency and Garza’s head games…seems like it would have been an awesome deal!
Do the Twins have a deep pen or what? A guy fresh up from AAA and their long man combine for 4 innings of no-hit pitching, and it doesn’t even seem that extraordinary.
On Saturday, it was tempting to feel that the relievers had turned in a subpar performance, but 3 runs in 7 IP would be a success for most teams.
Heintz was Baker’s catcher in AAA. I don’t see that as a problem.
Baker’s second start was lucky. With those numbers (almost 2 baserunners per inning), he could have easily come out of that giving up 5, 6, 7 runs like he did in today’s start. That the Twins came back and won that game and now have come back and tied it, essentially wiping Baker’s name out of the book, Baker wiggles his way out of any blame. But what happens if Garland shuts down the Twins for 7 innings? Suddenly it is the top of the 8th, Twins are down 6-1…..that’s not a position to win…
This is pure luck. If Ortiz put up those numbers, there would be an angry mob around the dome…
KirkMack the point I was trying to make was taht maybe just maybe neither pitcher did very well with the small strike zone today. They both walked too many hitters and when Baker tried to throw strikes his pitches were up and got hammered. Garland did not have his best day. It happens. Santana doesn’t throw a shutout every time out either. I am simply trying to say that Baker has had 3 starts THIS YEAR. If we are going to let Ponson go out there as many times as he did why would we give up on Baker so soon?
Andy,
Except that we never would’ve been able to re-sign Soriano, making it an enormous loss in the long run (unless it led to a WS championship, in which case, any price is the right price)
Roy,
No kidding … I’m more concerned about our bullpen’s health right now than any lack of power hitting. Those guys are so important to the Twins success.
I just don’t see a future for Baker and/or Garza in Twins uniforms.
I really forsee a 2009/2010 rotation of: Santana, Bonser, Liriano, Slowey, and Perkins…with Manship the hot minor leaguer ready to bust out!
Andy, I don’t remember Baker and Garza for Soriano, but I’m glad the Twins turned it down. Keep in mind that Soriano was a FA this winter, so we wouldn’t have him now anyway.
To me, Garza is worth more than a couple months of Soriano. People blow the ‘head games’ way out of proportion.
Kirk,
I sympathize with your frustration. I didn’t enjoy watching those first 4 innings either (terrible way to spend your lunch break). And by no means am I suggesting that because we tied the game, Baker is off the hook for this performance — he didn’t leave his team in a reasonable position to win today; they had to put him in a position not to lose. I’m saying, a bottom of the rotation guy is going to get hit hard on a few occassions. Ponson got hit hard every time out. Ortiz was getting hit hard regularly. Baker should certainly be allowed to get hit hard at least once before we call for his head. And as far as last year, who cares? What was Santana’s ERA his rookie year? Over 6, I believe. Good thing we didn’t pull the plug on him after his first disastrous outing his second year.
I have to caveat my last post:
In no way am I implying Baker will turn out as spectacular as Santana; just trying to show a comparison that came directly to mind.
Provided Garza stays. That goes on with the rotation.
You already have Johan, Boof, and Frankie pencilled in for the next X years.
What do you do with Garza, Slowey, Perkins, and Manship (even though he is 1 1/2+ years away)?
That’s 7 starters!
Great catch by Kubel, hopefully he will
continue to play everyday and put the LF
situation to rest.
I 100% agree, David. But Gardy has a man-crush on Lew, so we will still be subjected to his crappiness every now and then.
We need a steady right handed DH. Maybe with some pop. THAT is all this team needs, IMO.
Bullpen has been fantastic today. Haven’t allowed a hit yet in six innings! Great work, now we just need a run.
What’s the last season you recall the Twins (or just about anyone) surviving with using fewer than seven starting pitchers during the year? It’s called pitching depth and you don’t win often without it.
Agreed Jim, but outside of Manship, who we haven’t seen yet, we won’t be able to leave any of the names listed WAITING IN THE WINGS. By 2009/2010, they are all going to command starting jobs right out of spring training.
david,
Kubel’s airmail of Punto earlier in the game cost the Twins a run….great catch for sure, but you have to put it all in perspective….plus an 0-for-3…
Geez,
Baker has a bad start and now he’s nothing but a AAAA pitcher.
Garza has a questionable interview, and suddenly he’s got no future with the team!
What happens if Slowey has an off start on Friday night? Does he become a AAAA soft-tosser without a future with the team?
Hyperbole and overreaction are the norm in blog comments sections. It’s actually quite comical.
It’s kind of throwback day: this has been a Twins specialty for years, since the day when Joe Mays would give up a bunch of runs, get knocked out, and then the other team would get to try and hit Johan et al. for about 5 innings while we scrambled back into the game.
Teams might have been wise to pace themselves so that they didn’t get to our pen too early.
IMO, Baker hasn’t had a future with this team for a LONG time. Even a broken clock is right twice a day, ie his recent good start.
The radio guys were talking about Sammy
Sosa earlier and said if Texas is not in the running by the trade deadline
Sosa would be available he is only making $500,000.00 and he would be a great fix at the DH and he should not cost to much 1 of our top minor league
pitchers or 2 of our high end lower level guy. It would have been nice if the Twins would have made a run at Sosa
during Free Agency last off season.
Ozzies got to be ripping his hair out right now.
I think Seth is crazy for thinking Baker is a viable MLB option. he hasn’t been for a LONG time. This is not a knee-jerk reaction to one bad start!
Josh- I agree that last year was last year, and we should leave it at that, but wouldn’t you think that Baker should have improved some? In my book, he hasn’t proven anything to suggest that he’s gotten better. First start was good, second start was mediocre (but he got lucky), and this third start was terrible. The starts should be improving, not getting worse. I can give him another couple starts, but if they continue to be like today (or even his second start), I can’t see how that is any better than Ortiz and Ponson.
While I acknowledge that Baker is no Santana, nor should they be compared, there is a little asterisk to that- Santana was a raw Rule 5′er his rookie year. Baker’s had a solid minor league career. Santana was at a different level than Baker is now in his second season. Sending Santana down would have exposed him back to the Astros…just saying…
Bases juiced for the Canuck. I’d be more excited if he was from America!
Baker is 24 or 25. He’s had less than 30 big league starts. He’s young, unlike Ponson and Ortiz. I’ll take a bad start from a guy with potential.
Baker? Potential? How do I get the milk I just shot out my noce off my computer screen?
I agree, he is a number 5 and he is going to have some bad starts, but he’s worth keeping around, they walk in the winning run on 4 pitches Ozzies press confrece will be a classic, I can’t wait to see it on sports center tonight.
Justin Morneau fouled out with the game on the line, when all he needed is a fly out to center.
He’s clearly a AAAA slugger
Agreed Seth…although he has to be looked at critically…recall last year when we thought he was going to be part of the rotation during our stretch run…started out strong and then looked over-matched from mid-August on out….
I’d give Baker more of a shot…but I’d also not give up on Ortiz just yet…
I agree. Morneau should go back to Canada and brink Molson’s and eat jelly donuts…or whatever those stupid Canucks do to entertain themselves. Gosh I hate Canada!
Wow — I’m genuinely surprised we made it all the way back today … looked like one to forget when I shut the TV off.
Doesn’t it feel like they’re getting ready to go on another roll like they reeled off in July last year?
I’m not saying he deserves a permanent spot in the rotation. I do think that he deserves to not be on a start-by-start observance. Not yet. I’d say give him 10-12 starts. You’re evaluating and watching critically all the time, butit can’t be the usual game-to-game worries about being taken out of the rotation.
By the way, for people who think that this stat matters… the Twins are now 3-0 in games started by Scott Baker.
Guys, guys, guys….
Can we keep our eye on the ball here?
The Twins just overcame a five run deficit to sweep the hated White Sox. Let’s enjoy this!!
Save the Baker arguments for an off-day.
Speaking of a team’s record in games started by X pitcher, I’ve been reading Nolan Ryan’s autobiography, and (although it’s easy to say when you’ve got 300+ wins and 5K+ K’s) he made some interesting comments about the thought process of a lot of today’s (by today I’m referring to 1992 — I can only assume it’s progressed since) young pitchers.
He said when he would try to mentor the young guys, ask them what they’re thinking about in certain situations, etc., the prevailing response was “I’m going to throw X pitch,” or “I’m going to try to strike this guy out.” What he noted that I found interesting (maybe I’m reading too much into a senile old man’s thoughts) was they were never looking at the bigger picture, and he couldn’t for the life of him get them to do so. i.e. My statistics and personal W-L record be damned, how am I going to best help my team win this game. He said he rarely heard something such as “I’m hoping to induce a ground ball here,” or “I’m willing to give up that runner on third and hand it off to my bullpen tied or only a run down.”
Maybe nothing, maybe worth noting.
Why does everybody seem to think this is only Baker’s 2nd season? Does everyone forget that he made 9 starts in 2005???? Today was start number 28 for him in 3 seasons. I am a member of the camp that thinks they should get rid of Baker. With Liriano coming back next year, there simply is not any room for him? What are they going to do, keep him in AAA yet again next year???
That being said, I don’t think they should shop him around right this minute. They should keep him around until the trading deadline, and audition him for other teams. If he happens to start discovering his stuff, great, then we keep him! If not, we get a good 7 starts for him to eat up some innings and show him off to other teams that are more desperate for pitching than we are. I think Baker can be a servicable 5th starter for a team that is thin on pitching. The Twins are not a team that is thin on pitching, and this is why I don’t think we have any use for him. Can he be great?? Doubtful. Can he be good? Sure, just not for us.
I wonder what’s in Baker’s mind…..he didn’t look like he was ready to go.
Now Gardy is saying the same thing live on TV.
If it looks like a duck, acts like a duck, then throws likes a duck…..it must be a AAA pitcher.
I think that stat does matter, Seth.
But I also remember last year…so he’s going to have to earn his stay…we’re too deep in starting pitching to simply go with him no matter what, as you said.
A four-pitch two-out bases-loaded walk capping a come-from-five-runs-behind win for the sweep. Ain’t no better way to stick it to AJ.
Just pursuing the Box score of the game. The bullpen continues to leave me speechless. 6 IP, 0 H, 2 BB, 3 SO. Simply amazing!!!!!!
Baker costs the Twins $400K and does not cost the Twins a prospect.
Ortiz costs the Twins 3.0 Mil and cost the team a top 20 prospect(It is a sunk cost but it still was a cost to acquire him)
Since the two pitchers are going to perform the same, and only Baker having an opportunity to improve, I’ll gladly take Baker at that price over Ortiz. Well, I’d actually take Garza but it appears as if he is getting the David Ortiz treatment. Cost-Benefit Ratio. The benefits with Baker may not be high, but it costs a lot less to have Baker than it does Ortiz. At this point however Baker probably gets 5-8 more starts and then it should be evaluated on who the better pitcher is for the Twins.
Garza has to throw more then a fast ball in the majors or he will get knocked around. Not sure why this is hard to understand. 90% fastballs in the mjors doesn’t cut it. He also didn’t help himself by being immature and mouthing off. Not gonna get him here any faster.
Ortiz got his 10 starts. Ponson got his 10 starts. Let’s give Baker 10 starts or so and see. What are the options right now? Slowey is already on his way. Would Garza do any better right now? Do you want to put Ortiz back in the rotation? Perkins is hurt and would need to get some AAA innings first before he could start. Trades aren’t exactly easy to accomplish. So, what do you suggest?
Agreed, Nora.
You can’t get away with throwing 90% fastballs at just about any level above high school unless you’ve got some kind of sick, Mariano Rivera-type movement.
OH-oh, JOSH and NORA…Now I’m going to blow!
Baker just said he felt okay and “fine” today (and could have performed a bit better). This from a guy who couldn’t eek out a 90 mph fastball in the first inning.
And he looked in the interview like a guy who has just been de-institutionalized.
So I’ve changed my mind: he should be sent to AA (not AAA) or traded immediately, for his own good.
I mean it. The poor kid doesn’t have a mental clue; he needs some more life experience. A new organization just might do it for him.
Go ahead and spout off about one bad game but he deserve and will get another shot.
actually, I really like Baker’s new attitude. From what he has said, he has always made too much of each start rather than just focusing on the start. Nothing he can do about the previous game. Nothing he can do about the previous inning. That’s the right attitude to have. Baker is calm in his demeanor, much like Radke. I’m not saying he’s as good as Radke, or ever will be, but an even keel is not a bad thing for a pitcher.
Don’t feed the trolls!
Seth,
I suggest they stay the course. It’s a marathon still, not a race, and they have been on the right side of the fence lately in terms of the only important result.
The kid got lit up and had a mental mistake today. Crappy for him (I’m sure Gardy and Anderson are “talking” to him about it). Long view, it was one terrible start — now we get to see how he rebounds from it.
Coming from the organization that said Jason Bartlett didn’t have enough “leadership” then brought him up after service time requirements passed, I will remain very skeptical about that 90% number actually being true. I have been searching the internet for an objective take on that number but can not find one. If someone produces a page that shows that number to be true I will retract my skepticism.
Furthermore, he is posting a low 3 ERA at AAA and that has dropped a point since he started determining his own fate. “I don’t know why that is hard to understand” that he has proven to be eminently successful, and a top 10 ML prospect being the pitcher that he has been thus far. I have yet to see a write up on him from a non-Twins source that said anything other than him having 3 plus pitches and a developing change up.
Being that the Twins usually don’t put up with any crap, especially from a Minor Leaguer, I wouldn’t be surprised if Garza stays down in AAA longer than Gardy and Ryan originally intended, Just because he mouthed off to the Media about now wanting to throw offspeed stuff. I’m sure that Ryan and Gardy were none too pleased when that happened.
To be honest, reading this (and most other) Twins blogs has become less and less interesting lately. I enjoy the insights of people like LaVelle, Joe, Seth, John, Aaron (and BG when she was around), but I really can’t believe how every comments section has become so filled with venom spewed toward one Twins player or another.
You would think Ortiz, Kubel, Ford, Punto, Tyner, and now Baker were all the worst dredges to ever wear Twins uniforms.
Look at the comments posted during this game today… you would never guess the Twins came back from 6-1 down and that it was the OTHER team’s pitcher that walked in the winning run on 4 pitches.
There are some guys I’m higher on than others and I don’t mind a discussion about relative merits occasionally, but lately it’s been kind of rediculous.
I guess we have the Twins’ equivalent of Randy Moss’ “I play when I want to play” comment now judging by fans’ reaction.
Any Given Sunday: I know it was a football movie, but hear me out. Hot shot QB outperforms Dennis Quaid for the starting role and immediately is a fan favorite. Dennis Quaid basically says, look, he’s got a great attitude now, but you can’t win every game. Wait until he loses and then let’s talk about his attitude.
Seth’s exactly right on about Baker — he’s looking at this poor outing in the right way — as long as he does follow it up with a good outing.
And then Dennis Quaid is proven right, Jamie Foxx eventually gets it together, and in the end, they’re friends.
JimCrikket I said nothing bad towards anyone from the Twins! You and I have had plenty of conversations on here that we agreed and others when we agreed to disagree. Baker had a bad day. It happens.
Jim, great point. I get more than a little frustrated by it myself.
And, Garza is not far off. He isn’t pitching bad at all. Yes, he’s 2-5, but the low 3’s ERA says he’s ok. I don’t think that he’s saying he doesn’t want to throw offspeed pitches. He just doesn’t want to throw them to throw them. He wants to throw them when they make sense during the course of the game. That’s smart pitching.
Good call wheels…
The best closers are those that can come out on the night after a bad blown save and get three outs in the ninth. It’s the same for starters or set up men. You have to move past bad outings. And fans and the media have to allow them to!
Don’t let it get you down, Jim.
It’s exactly why I pick and choose what days I’m going to post. Sometimes, the discussions are fun (I like to debate just to see how far some guys will take their “curious” positions with me). Sometimes I find my viewpoint shift, or at least give more consideration to “curious” positions based on a strong point or argument. Sometimes, it’s too venomous and off-the-wall for me to get involved.
In the end, it’s either read and blog about the Twins, or deal with ridiculous paperwork. Personally, I prefer reading and blogging Twins!
“What happens if Slowey has an off start on Friday night? Does he become a AAAA soft-tosser without a future with the team?”
Of course I note the sarcasm, but Baker has made nearly 30 starts (I think maybe 5 quality ones) over 3 seasons.
Slowey has made none.
Wow tough crowd today. We won today folks! How Sweep it is! Baker will be fine.
LaVelle wrote: ” I was trying to get to the bottom of things, and Terry Ryan was acting like I’ve put him on trial.”
LaVelle, tell the world’s greatest GM to be upfront with the media regarding Joe’s injury. This isn’t the NFL. There is no competitive advantage in being secretive about player injuries. What’s the real deal with Joe. If all else fails, bribe TR by telling him you’ll get Sid to stop kissing his ass in his column once per week.
YAY, we swept those dirty rotten White Sox out of town. Hopefully we can continue the winning way’s out west.
Seriously, NORA, I don’t mean to be mean to Baker, who is a sincere nice guy. But Gardy doesn’t know what happened to him today.
I justhope he gives himself a slap and the face and toughens up and applies himself and has some fun!
Justin Morneau fouled out with the game on the line, when all he needed is a fly out to center.
He’s clearly a AAAA slugger
You might joke about this now, but I remember the days back when the Twins Geek was hosted by the Strib, and there were lots and lots of commenters who thought that Morneau would never amount to much because he couldn’t hit a breaking ball, and that the Twins were crazy for choosing to go with him over Dougie Baseball.
And Hunter struck out an inning or two before waving at a high pitch.
Got that nostalgic sinking feeling that both he and Morneau had blown it.
Lucky for us the Squawks imploded…
According to Stats, Inc., Garza threw 64% fastballs, 10% curveballs, 17% sliders, and 8% changes last season.
Seth, I liked your point about the team W-L record in Baker’s starts this year. In 2005 Baker had 9 starts with 4 quality starts. In 2006 he had 16 starts, also with 4 quality starts. He has one QS so far this year, so that makes 9 quality starts out of 28 in his (still very young) major league career. In 2005 the team was 5-4 in games he started, in 2006 it was 7-9, and this year we are 3-0 in Baker starts for an overall team record of 15-13 in his career as a starter. The Twins were 192-186 in games Brad Radke started throughout his career.
LaVelle, what do you think it would take for the Twins to pry Sosa away from the Rangers so that he could be our DH. Guys give Baker a chance, for a 5th starter he’s not bad(he was bad to day) 3 starts this season 1 outstanding
1 average 5th Starter start and 1 bad outing, so if he continues that trend that means he keeps us a game every 2 out of 3 starts thats about average for a number 5 starter.
Baker is 15-13 for his career 29 starts which for a number 5 starter is about 1 full season, there is not a team in baseball that would not take that from it’s 5th starter so lets give baker ab break not every pitcher is on the starting staff is going to win 20 games.
If the Twins get 18 wins from Santana and 14 to 16 wins from Boof and 10 to 14 wins each from the other 3 starts they are doing great.
I love Liriano, but he spoiled too many twins fans.
Due to his instant domination, it seems like patience went out the window with the locals. Thank god TR isn’t as knee-jerk as some people posting on here.
Okay so a question for everyone who seems to think that those of us who want to unload Baker are being impatient. Assuming that Baker stays in the rotation for the remainder of the season, if by the end of the season Baker still has very mediocre stats (ERA near 5, WHIP over 1.3, etc.) do you STILL hang onto him for next year? How many starts does Baker get to improve? 50? 60? More?
For the record, I don’t think the Twins should get rid of Baker just because “he sucks” or whatnot. I think they should get rid of him because we don’t have any room for a mediocre pitcher when we are already loaded down with pitching prospects. I’d love to know where you find room for Baker next year. Yes it’s true that Liriano could have a setback, it’s just as true that he could continue to be phenomenal.
Although more than enough has been stated about Baker already, allow me to offer my 2 cents.
I think we can all agree that he was not good enough to stay in the rotation in 06. Such a conclusion would be based upon era of 6.37, whip of 1.56, and only 25% of starts being quality starts.
So, the question is whether he has improved to the point in 07 that he should stay in the rotation. I agree it is too early to decide and he is entitled to more opportunity. But, 07 is beginning to look a lot like 06 … era 5.94, whip 1.56, and 1 out of 3 quality starts.
Tentative conclusion is that he needs to step it up big time or we will be moving to the next option … probably Garza but certainly not Ortiz.
It depends on a lot of things. I wouldn’t give him away. He’s not even arbitration-eligible, and there would be no reason to take him off the 40 man roster. A 1.30 WHIP is not that bad. I don’t know, but I’m guessing league average is somewhere in there. ERA near 5 would probably not be more than about 0.40 over the league average (again, not looking it up, but guessing).
I woudln’t get rid of him at all. Santana will be there. In all likelihood Bonser, Garza and Slowey will be there. Do we know that Francisco Liriano will be back and ready for the beginning of the season with no worries? Geez, for $425,000, I’ll take those numbers you give to have a 5th, 6th or 7th starter.
Worst case, he becomes the long reliever and pitches in low leverage situations. Every team needs one or two of those. Matt Guerrier did it for 2+ years and it is an underappreciated job.
Exactly right, Seth. You need more than 5 capable starting pitchers every season and at least 3 or 4 of those are going to be no better than average statistically. If Baker never becomes better than an average #5 starter or even a decent long reliever, you don’t just dump him for nothing in return.
Would he be available as part of a trade? Of course. But honestly, the number of “off-limits” guys on the roster right now can probably be counted on one hand. Everyone else is “available” for the right price.
ERA near 5 would probably not be more than about 0.40 over the league average (again, not looking it up, but guessing).
So far this year in the AL, starting pitchers have a 4.52 ERA as a whole. Last year in the AL, starting pitchers had a 4.75 ERA.
I knew someone would have that league-average ERA. I bet it is closer to 4.75 by the end of the year. And again, that’s why I don’t think that an ERA at 5.00 is worth giving up!
The 50th percentile ERA for an AL starter is 4.41. The 60th percentile is 4.88. Below that, we get into the mid-fives pretty quickly. Even if Baker falls at the 70th percentile (5.60), he still has value as a cheap fifth/sixth starter.
“The Twins were 192-186 in games Brad Radke started throughout his career.”
Record could have been a lot better if the twins had an offense during the 90s.
I’m not a big fan of baker’s, but i still feel like he deserves an extended shot at becoming a major league pitcher. Just like kubel deserves a shot. Just like santana got, cuddyer got, morneau got……
You might joke about this now, but I remember the days back when the Twins Geek was hosted by the Strib, and there were lots and lots of commenters who thought that Morneau would never amount to much because he couldn’t hit a breaking ball, and that the Twins were crazy for choosing to go with him over Dougie Baseball.
Your memory is bad. Mientkiewicz was on his way out by the time the Twins went with Morneau. There were no serious complaints about the move. There were plenty of people who supported the Twins decision to leave Morneau at AAA to start the 2004 season after he hit .226 during his major league stint in 2003. As it happens, that turned out pretty good.
Then there were a bunch of the same people who thought he should have been called up sooner who were giving up on him last may when he started the year slowly. Same way they gave up on Cuddyer. Its funny how the folks who are impatient for young players to be called up are equally impatient once they get here and don’t immediately become stars.
But there were a lot of people thinking he should have been sent down and given up on last May.
“I really can’t believe how every comments section has become so filled with venom spewed toward one Twins player or another.”
what is wrong with having expectations? I am sick of the MN nice bs. Expect more get more!
The problem with giving baker more starts is with every start, his trade value goes down.
“Expect more get more!”
Yeah, like the Yankees!
Ooh, that’s harsh, Seth.
I posted a few “Game Chatter” type comments during the game, but in general they don’t draw nearly the response that “X sucks” comments do. I’d say, Jim, if you want to see more of a certain kind of comment, your only recourse is to supply some of them and hope it’s contagious.
2007 AL-average WHIP is 1.39, and in 2006 it was 1.41.
I find myself on both sides of this argument over Baker. On the one hand, he does have a lot of upside potential, and he is still young. On the other hand, this pattern of Baker’s seems to be a repeating record–one good start after coming up from the minors and then tanking. Maybe we should send him back down, call him back up to pitch against the Yankees, and then trade him the next day to the Yankees.
what is wrong with having expectations?
Nothing. Is there something wrong with the expectation of semi-intelligent criticism from Twins fans instead of mindless venom? I don’t think so. Expect more, get more.
The fact is that baseball is a game where most players fail - a lot. When people turn every failure into some sort of morality play and make definitive judgments about a players worth, all it does is reflect badly on their understanding of the game.
I don’t think Seth’s comment is harsh. The Yankees have done best when Steinbrenner has been patient. And they soon go in the tank when he starts to get impatient. In baseball expect more, get less is too often the case. Players who try hard, fail more. Its the one’s that accept failure as part of the game and take it one plate appearance, one pitch, one play at a time that are usually the most successful.
In defense of Ubelman, I recall quite vividly MUCH heated discussion about the sanity of dumping Dougie Baseball, especially when Morneau came up and had problems. This chatter carried over into the next season and was even being discussed as recently as a year ago last April. (At least DM was a great defensive player unlike JM.)
I recall quite vividly MUCH heated discussion about the sanity of dumping Dougie Baseball, especially when Morneau came up and had problems.
I think there is a group of people who think that if a prospect eventually prospers its proof he should have been called up earlier. Its pretty tough to make the case that Doug Mientkiewicz circa 2003 wasn’t a better player than Justin Morneau circa 2005.
As I said, the spring 2006 discussion of Morneau’s “failure” was largely driven by disappointed supporters ready to give up on him. You can see the same effect now with Kubel and Baker.
I evidently wasn’t hanging around the right places, since I never knew anybody who thought DM should have been kept. And if people wanted to dump Morneau in 2005/6, I wonder who they thought the Twins should be playing.
But it doesn’t seem to me that Morneau struggled when he was called up. He crushed the ball in 2004, just as his previous career implied he would. He then suffered a series of bizarre illnesses and injuries which contributed to a horrible tailspin.
People were right to feel that 2005 was a terrible disappointment and that far more should be expected from Morneau. It became clearer last year just how much Morneau’s weakened condition had contributed to the bad season, and how off-base Hunter had been in accusing him in the press of malingering.
I’m mainly just saying that I would much rather cheer for a Twins team and be happy with successes than a yankees team where less than a World Series championship is a let down. Also, sure, we can bring in some big name bats and arms and spend a lot of money, but the Yankees are showing that that isn’t necessarily the answer every time.
Well, the Yankees have experienced some success. But I think if we had had more money to spend the last few years, we would probably resemble the Orioles.
Just as the restrictions of formal structures can bring out the best in a poet or musician, the strictures of a low budget have often led the Twins in the right direction.
The Yankees need the O’Neill’s, Leyritz’s, and Brosiuis’s back. They were the guys who actually made the team likeable (tolerable?) - the scrappy guys who made the most of their talent. Instead, they now just insert a multi-million dollar plug into every hole.
What often goes unnoticed is, the Yankees never really “bought” a championship.
Their run of 4 titles in 5 years was led by a corps of guys they drafted and developed (i.e. patience) — Derek Jeter, Andy Pettite, Mariano Rivera, Jorge Posada, Bernie Williams, etc. You’ll notice, they kept winning games, but stopped winning the most important ones, when they started shelling out mega-bucks to every name superstar on the planet.
I think the Twins are following the correct model. Baker will be a fine 4-6 option in the rotation, and if not, I have faith in the Twins braintrust to make the appropriate move — It’s pretty tough to argue with the results of the past 6 years.
A Scott Brosius reference? Thanks for that mini_tb, you’re my hero.
I think some people think the Twins have too many arms, so they need to dump someone (Baker) in a trade. That’s just ridiculous to me. Granted if it’s the right trade that will help the team and not hurt them down the road, i’m all for it. But to have the mentality that the Twins have too much pitching prosepect and not enough spots for all of them up with the big club means they need to get rid of s one or more of them is just stupid. I agree that Baker has his struggles and isn’t that consistent right now, but i also believe he’s got the ability to be a pretty valuable big league starting pitcher if he can figure a few things out. That’s not someone you trade, just to trade because you have too much young pitching talent. I think he’ll be fine and to be honest the Twins need him right now. I have way more confidence in him than the alternative (Ortiz). Garza will eventually be there, but I don’t think he’d be any better than Baker right now.
A little FYI for everyone…Did you know that mini_tb and Scott Baker are cousins? A doubt you did, but now you know.
Nicky Poo and mini_tb… Are both of you related to Baker? Do you know him? Have you met him? I wonder if there are other family relatives that read these comments?
Yankees suck. ESPN had a great article awhile ago about the baseball “coasts”. Don’t know if anyone else read it. IT stated that the East Coast is in a decline because they spend to much money on “great players” that turn out the be average. The West Coast just sucks (minus a select few, of course). That the Mississippi Coast is where the best of baseball is. We bring up players threw our farm system (mind you it’s not just players WE draft).
For those of you that doubt what the Twins are doing, let’s not forget what they have done and they pretty much know how to handle these situations. That’s how they turned a team with one of the lowest payrolls into what it is today. Just sit back and enjoy the season/ride.
As I said, the spring 2006 discussion of Morneau’s “failure” was largely driven by disappointed supporters ready to give up on him. You can see the same effect now with Kubel and Baker.
You have a funny definition of “supporters.” Almost all the people I know who thought Kubel would be a solid hitter still think he’ll be a fine hitter, and a lot of the people who thought that Baker would be a valuable pitcher still think he can be a valuable pitcher.
Actually, dating to 2005, Baker has a career record of 9-11 in 29 appearances, 28 starts. This from a guy who we used to have 2006 Garza-like (hype) expectations for.
My honest opinion on Kubel is that he will be fine. We need to get a RH DH, and give every LF AB to Kubel, regarless of the pitcher.
The Yankees and those Coast teams you mention sign players who were great. The scary part about signing big name free agents is that, like average players, their play generally starts declining somewhere around age 33-35. So, if a guy becomes a free agent at age, say… 32, and you sign him to a five year contract for huge money, you may get another great year out of him, maybe you get three great years. But generally, those last couple of years, you will pay a lot for some diminishing skills. (See Abreu, Damon, Giambi, Mussina, most Orioles free agents) Therein lies my concern about giving Torii Hunter too many years.
mini_tb is Scott’s cousin and i’m mini_tb’s life partner. Believe that and i’ll sell you my Juan Castro rookie card for the low price of $1200.
It sounds like you legitimately don’t know who i am Seth, i hope you’re kidding. Corporate office - architectural, initials NH. I hope you’ve narrowed it down. Maybe you do know who it is and you’re just being a funny guy, which i wouldn’t doubt, just want to make sure.
I’ll come and comment on your site now. Maybe i’ll be a little nasty towards you, haven’t decided yet.
Just as the restrictions of formal structures can bring out the best in a poet or musician, the strictures of a low budget have often led the Twins in the right direction.
Roy - I agree. Money has forced the Twins to make hard decisions and let guys move on that they would have kept if it weren’t for budget considerations. They would have held on to guys like Hawkinds, Guardado and Jones if they had the money.
Seth, this is certainly a key issue with acquiring FA talent (apart from the rare ARods who become FAs at 26 or 27). In the past, most players started declining even earlier than you mentioned: in his classic 1982 study, James found the peak to be in the late 20s, and decline starting at 30.
There does seem to be a trend toward older players doing better, but people still almost always overestimate what they can expect from an aging star.
Anyway, if Torii keeps hitting at this clip, he’ll be out of our price range.
It seems like it is getting trendier (more trendy?)to sign young players to long contrects that buy out their arbitration years plus a year or 2 of the first year’s of free agency. Wasn’t Cleveland one of the first to start doing this in the 90s?
It’s an affordable long term contract that is more costly at the beginning but cheaper at the end. This will likely take the player through his prime years and into his late 20s or early 30s, or the first stage of decline. The player also stands a good chance of being out of his original team’s price range afterwards (see Santana, Johan).
The risk for the team here is they may be sinking money into a player who is just plain mediocre. He might show promise at a young age, get signed long term through his arbitration years, and turn out to be Hank Blalock or Eric Hinske.
I am a big fan of teams working oon these contracts with their young stars. It’s too bad we didn’t get Morneau last offseason, though. Methinks his price tag is rising!
Hey La Velle! I think you are going to have to start a blogger question on your days off; these 135 message blogs load too slowly.
When are the Twins going to move Mauer to another position? Why not move him to 3rd. He obviously cannot stay healthy behind home. We can’t go through this every year.
Brian,
They aren’t moving Mauer to third.
Why are the Twins continuing to play Lou Ford everyday? He can’t hit. Tyner would be a better alternative if they can’t trade for someone who is not an automatic out.
Doug
Where I read new articles?
Where I see gallery?
Bebo ?ommunity, share your blogs
How much does it cost links on your blog (Blogroll)?
How add your blog to bookmarks?
JAPAN MP3 Download?
Wieviel kostet es Verbindungen auf deinem blog (Blogroll)?
The Free Project Voyeur. Free Amateur and Real Voyeur
Wellcom to new social network
How add your site to reddit?
How add your site to technorates?
How add your site to digg?
How add your site to reddit?
How add your site to propeller?
How add your site to reddit?
How add your to reds?
