My Thoughts On The Trade
Posted on July 30th, 2007 – 9:32 PMBy La Velle
The Mets have, what one scout called, `The Big Four.’
The Four: Pitchers Mike Pelphry and Phil Humber and outfielders Fernando Martinez and Carlos Gomez. I guess Lastings Milledge is considered a major leaguer now…or untouchable because the Mets don’t know how healthy Carlos Beltran is.
So when the Twins didn’t land one of these top prospects I initially went, `Say what?’
It made some sense the more I thought about it.
Castillo is going to be a two-month rent-a-player, and you just can’t get a lot in return for a rental. Terry Ryan wouldn’t disclose if other teams were in on Castillo. I never heard if there was a bidding war or not.
However, I’m still wondering why they traded for a catcher. Chris Butera may be a good catch and throw guy, but the Twins won’t need a catcher for several years because Joe Mauer is around (no, he won’t be moved to another position). And they have guys in the system.
Jose Morales is developing behind the plate but is having a good offensive season at Class AAA Rochester.
Korey Feiner is supposed to be a decent catcher at Class AA New Britain.
And they drafted Jeff Christy in 2006.
I don’t get that aspect of it.
The Twins’ minor league catchers have had injuries, position shifts and, based on a reader e-mail, one retirement. But they still have enough to get through the minor league season. They drafted and signed three catchers this year.
Dustin Martin is supposed to be a well-built athlete who is still learing to hit for power. O.K. that’s cool. The Twins do have a track record of trading for A-ball players (Bartlett, Casilla, Liriano) who reach the majors. We’ll see.
As for more trades, I’m not sure. There seems to be a market for Juan Rincon if the Twins want to trade him. There doesn’t seem to be a big market for Carlos Silva. We’ll see.
[UPDATE]: Just got back up from the clubhouse. Some Twins personnell believe that Ryan is going to try to land a hitter before 3 p.m. Tuesday. I want to emphasize TRY. Players are upset to lose Castillo but measured their words carefully on the record.
115 Responses to "My Thoughts On The Trade"
La Velle, Mike in IN had a good theory about the catcher question on Joe C’s gametime blog (posted at 7:42).
Just FYI as a possible answer.
What about Torii Hunter? ESPN keeps talking about it like its a real possibility. However, I personally see the Twins only 6 games back and a move like that would be devastating to this years club.
Will the Twins trade Hunter if they get a good offer? If not, do you think the Twins will sign him.
When you stop and think about it, Hunter is exactly the type of player the Twins need. A RH hitter with power. Why in the world would they trade him and only increase that need?
I remember after trading J.C. for Casilla I was pretty annoyed but that worked out in the end.
Ryan was in a tight spot. If he didn’t trade him, he would have gotten ripped for it. When he did, I don’t think he got enough.
Too bad.
La Velle -
Please post some of the quotes from locker room
That would be interesting
I had the same thoughts La Velle for a C, as I like Morales too. But I will give TR the benefit of the doubt after the Romero/Lohse trades last year.
I still am fine with the deal just because we get to see Casilla now. And I really think he’s no worse really than Castillo as an all-around player at this point.
Still hoping to see Silva/Rincon gone VERY soon.
Personally, I still think Mauer will move positions. At 6 feet 6 inches he’s too tall. Butera has thrown out 47% of the runners I like that. This Martin kid has really good speed and some good pop. I trust the Twins scouts. Plus I really like Casilla and believe he will soon be better than the limping Castillo.
I’m sorry but I have to call B.S. here. Allow me to explain:
Let us assume that the Ryan thinks the Twins are back in the mix with this modest 3 game winning streak…(as he said so tonight in so many words to the media and then shown on FSN during tonights game). Why in the world would he then go and trade Castillo? It doesnt matter that he was a FA and most likely gone next season, if you believe you are still in the Wild Card hunt, why go and trade your starting 2B, and leadoff hitter? Perhaps if Ryan didnt sit on his hands and the glut of pitching prospects at his disposal, he could have brought in a bat or two earlier in the month and we wouldnt even be in this situation.
Alright, so let us assume Ryan thinks we are done and is raising the white flag. This better not be the only move he makes then. Silva, Rincon, and even Hunter and Nathan should all be gone by tommorow afternoon. If we are truly out of it, than there will be no better time than now to make the neccessary trades to begin our rebuilding in time for the new stadium.
I also don’t buy into the garbage that it will be a P.R. hit to trade Hunter. He is already 32, soon to be exiting his prime, why waste dollars on him that can be used for long term contracts for Morneau and Santana?
It is either in or out Mr. Ryan. You have traded Castillo today so I you should follow through and make the trades to make this a better team down the road. We already got the new stadium, let people be pissed in the meantime b/c the prospects and players received in return for Hunter/Nathan et al, should be a very good starting point for our future.
If you cop out and no more deals are made tommorow, than I have no choice but to think of you in the same mold as the flunky GM over at 600 First Ave. It is your move Terry, what’ll it be?
Btw, I had one trade that would have been nice:
Terry could have offered Nathan and Rincon and a prospect for Saltalamacchia in ATL and had hime come in and catch and move Mauer to 3B. You get a great catching prospect ready for the bigs, solve your ugly 3B problem, and everybody is happy.
But what do I know…I just post on a mssg board right?
I like this trade and I like the fact Ryan is not, at this point, trying to find a replacement for Torii. I think he really believes he can sign him. Many people have commented in other threads on Puckett’s “home town discount.” I could be wrong, but I don’t recall a discount (Hrbek did take less). I remember Puckett being, for a short time, the highest paid player in baseball.
What about Morgan Ensberg???? We need to get that done!!
I don’t think the Twins lose much from this trade, and I don’t think it thowing in the towel in the season. It might serve as a wake up to the remaining players, and I think Casilla and Punto can fill 2b.
Ensberg had ONE good, fluke year, and has not even played close to those numbers since his shoulder injury. Let it go already! If you cant hit in MinuteMaid, what makes you think he’ll hit here???
I don’t want Ensberg.
No, you don’t want Ensberg
Kirby was offered more money by Boston. So he did leave money on the table to stay. Close enough to a discount for me.
I think TR realized that he had a unique situation with the Mets where they were somewhat desperate for a 2B they could count on. Most contending teams are looking for pitching or a big bat, not a 2B, so this was an opportunity to get something for Castillo, and he jumped on it.
Even if TR does nothing else from here, I can’t fault him for making this trade.
On one hand some are saying he has to decide whether we’re contending or not, but if he declares an intent either way, he’ll get hammered for not trying to do both at the same time. He’s basically in a no-win situation with the fans, so he’ll do what he always does… make the best moves he can given his situation and limitations… and largely ignore comments from most of the blogosphere who think working a trade in real life is as easy as it is on a video game or in their fantasy baseball league.
Kudos to TR for getting us something in return for Castillo… as opposed to zilch, which is what we would have gotten had we kept him.
- Freez
Was TR sure he traded the right player? Did he intend to put down 3B Nick Punto but mistakenly put 2B Castillo for trade??
I’m totally unhappy about this trade. How could TR say you’re trying to win 2007 while you gave up a .300 hitter on a team with little offense for two not even AAA players???? Are you on crack or something?
While I think getting rid of Castillo is addition by subtraction (I’d also imagine Gardy was tiring of coddling a lazy player, the deal makes a lot more sense if Castillo’s salary is used to bring in someone like Piazza, that likely can be brought in for a few million and a marginal prospect. As it stands, it just doesn’t seem like something the Twins would do.
I also doubt Castillo could have brought in one of the Mets top guys if he had a ten year deal where he pays the team a million a year.
Freez,
Do you work in the Front Office, or for FSN? That is such an apologist attitude towards Ryan, which again lets him off the hook. Im sorry, but this time he needs to pick a side. Buy or sell, and since he sold Castillo today, he’d ought to keep selling tommorow….
Yeah if he doesnt trade anyone else fans will be rightfully upset that this trade (which brings us suspect and marginal talent in return) is the only move he makes when he himself toes the line in his public statements about being a contender or not.
And yes, people will be mad if he does trade Hunter, Nathan, et al b/c we all love those guys and they play hard night in, night out. Twins fans can respect that, but I think they can also respect a GM who is constantly looking to make upgrades for the team and not always look to remain status quo.
Ryan will never be confused as an impulse buyer/seller as a GM as his track record has indicated. He is the shrewdest of the shrewd and yes, that philosophy has gotten us some great returns (Knobby trade, Liriano trade, Santana rule 5 pick) and some horrific ones more recently (batista, castro, ponson, ortiz (david)).
However this year, this time, Ryan needs to step up and pick a side, and not leave this team in purgatory if he makes no more deals tommorow.
TR isn’t giving up on this year or jeopardizing the future with this trade. Silva and Rincon trades would fall in the same category. Hunter and Nathan would be the “white flag” deals. Neither of them should be moved in my opinion. Not only because of our slim chances this year, but because this team has a chance to be very good for a long time. We don’t exactly need to blow this thing up.
I would really like to see what the players said. The fact that they were grumbling out loud and that even the manager was upset is proof that it was a bad deal. Castillo was a fantastic lead-off hitter. He had more infield hits then anyone. With Castillo gone and Bartlett’s huge error totals the middle of the infield is going to lose us some close games. We lost the 3 Detroit games by 1 run each. Ryan is to blame for that. He dragged his feet too long and the players know that. Castillo was a huge player favorite. I am glad that I will be able to watch him in the World Series but I really feel ripped off for the Twins. We need a sportscaster in this town that will standup to Ryan and really confront him. He wouldn’t be able to get away with this in New York or Chicago. Trade Ryan for two minor leaguers that will never play a game in the majors!!
He had more infield hits then anyone.
Is this supposed to be a good thing?
Catchers:
Morales is developing at AAA; given that Heintz is there now..and really doesn’t seem to have much of a future, Morales could make the 40-man in the next off-season. AA: Feiner,Geiger and Butera now? Geiger is at .255, Feiner .222
A: Christy is back down there, and Soto was called up from GCL, had a nice 2-run single tonight. Sanchez retired to LSU and Caleb Moore is back at Eliz, now as a reliever (precedence: Tim Lahey, NB Closer, was a catcher for a year). de San Miguel, another good defensive cather, minimal offense.
Beloit: Wilson Ramos, may have some real potential. Ben Petsch got bumped up and is getting reps now, too.
Eliz: Yersich got demoted after rough going at Beloit. Lehmann is on board, and having a decent rookie ball year.
Palacios got hurt, unfortunately, also was hitting well.
GCL: Soto is gone, at FM now; Rohlfing and Hernandez are getting the reps.
Have to wonder how much Red Dog will have left after 2008; Morales should be ready, and Butera gives them another guy to work behind the dish.
Not a great pick up, but not the end of the world in a renter’s market.
Anyone thinking they’d get a top-flight guy for a creaky rental 2B is kidding themselves.
We all have our opinions about trades. But, the truth is none of us have the first clue about what’s out there. I’m of the belief that no trade is much better than a dumb one. If TR is so terrible, I’ll take that kind of ineptitude every time. Contending with a small budget, consistently over 5+ years, while turning over the roster almost entirely. Most franchises are trying to do just that. We’re spoiled, plain and simple.
Some of what I read on here is just funny. My favorite of the night: From Trade Ryan — “The fact that they [the players] were grumbling out loud and that even the manager was upset is proof that it was a bad deal.” Uh . . . no. The players are not paid to evaluate talent. The players form personal relationships with guys that a GM has to avoid thinking about. The fact that the players are grumbling about this deal is proof that Luis Castillo was a good teammate, but it is by no means proof that this was a bad deal. Anyway, as I’ve said before tonight, I think TR made the most out of an untenable situation. I’m not thrilled with the prospects the Twins got back, but it’s better than sitting back and getting nothing for a guy who might not have even brought a draft pick back as compensation.
Old Dodger fan, TR doesn’t have to pick a side. And why should he? He will do what he thinks best for the Twins. No one out here knows what’s all going on. This isn’t fantasy baseball. Quit you’re crying.
Exactly, working with a small budget gave us these gems:
Silva–option picked up, 4M
Ortiz–fa signed, 3.1M
Ponson–fa signed, 1M
Rondell–fa signed, 2.5M
So add that up and what do ya get? 10.6M in wasted dollars that could have gone to a bat going into this season. Hindsight is always 20/20, but working with this limited budget, TR doesnt always make the right choices.
I like the trade-I like it because as Ryan said we can get by. I’d say we can MORE then just get by. We were going to loose him at the end of the year anyways, so why not get SOMETHING for him now.
My main question is, ” can we take the $2 million we’re saving the rest of this season and add to whatever offer Ryan is going to make Hunter at the end of the season?”
I love the trade, but wonder too about why we traded for a catcher?
Is is possible we will wait until he gets better and trade him for a hitter?
Hey brookshirebabewatcher,
If you want pie-in-the-sky, duckies and bunnies, everythings all good, comments regarding the GM and his recent run of ineptitude, I suggest you go watch Bremer, LaPanta, Gellner, etc… and leave the discussion to the adults.
Brooklyn Twins Fan-
good thoughts on how we’ve wasted our cash. those players are horrible, even at a cheaper price…. Maybe we can do what River Valley Church suggested and use that money to sign Hunter…
If the players don’t like to see trades like this, maybe they should have won a few more games over the first 4 months of the season. They played their way in to the situation they’re in right now. If they want to prove TR wrong, let them do so on the field.
Brooklyn Twins Fan,
You’re right. TR doesn’t always make the right decisions in hindsight. But, as I posted before, we don’t have a clue what’s being offered and no trade is better than a dumb one. I disagree with your “pick a side” mantra. There is a middle ground here. Drastic moves often are made out of desperation (i.e. Nathan, Rincon, and a prospect for Atlanta’s catcher, then move Mauer). By the way, were you serious?
I look at this roster and frankly, I don’t think we’re that desperate.
Brooklyn Twins Fan,
You need to chill. Relax a bit, will ya?
In the words of Crash Davis, “This is supposed to be fun, #$&&%)(!”
If TR doesn’t make this move, he gets nothing for Castillo, AND has to eat his remaining salary.
Now, he’s cleared 2.7M off the books. If he then deals Rincon and Silva for a bat, that’s another 4M or so (I’m estimating - not sure exactly how much each of them are still owed for the remainder of the season). Assuming you can acquire a big bat in a trade (which is a big assumption - those real life GMs and their egos are a lot harder to deal with than most people realize) you also have to make sure you can pay him. These are things real GMs have to think about, that armchair GMs often don’t.
2.7M won’t get you much of a bat, but 6-7M will.
I’m not an apologist. Just a Minnesotan exiled in California (thank God for MLB.tv) who also happens to be more of a realist about the kind of trades that can be done given our situation than most (not all) people roaming the Twins blogs today.
- Freez
just cut ortiz, l-rod and ford. trade silva, rincon
Um, yes I was totally serious about Saltalamacchia. They have an all-star in McCann entrenched there, have a need at closer (Wickman/Gonzalez/Soriano only signed through ‘07), and I merely threw in Rincon b/c I am sick of watching him play here and give up runs.
Salty is currently the number 1 rated organizational prospect for the Braves (well, Rangers now after today). He definetly could have come in and caught, or at least split time with Redmond for this season and maybe the next.
Everyone says its crazy to move Mauer, but darn he would look good at the hot corner, and play good defense and hit at least for average (much more than we can say now than our current options, seriously people are crying for Morgan freakin Ensberg! and we are trying out a 26 yr old rookie, yikes.)
Furtermore, I couldnt disagree with you more that trading Hunter, Nathan, Silva, et al is an act of desperation. How in one breath can people applaud the moving of Castillo but not do the same at the exact same prospect for the above mentioned players.
The Twins do not have enough $$$ to re-sign Hunter, and re-sign Nathan after ‘08 (and BJ Ryan got 5 yrs-47 mil, you can be assured Nathan will get at least that same amount), and Santana, again after ‘08. They would be wise to allo Nathan and Hunter to move along and use that money to lock up Morneau and Santana. By not doing this, all Ryan will be doing is delaying the inevitable and the visicous cycle of allowing our players to leave in or around their prime will continue.
There is no middle ground here Walter, Ryan needs to step up and make some tough choices about the future of this ball club. Remaining pat after Castillos trade does absolutely nothing.
Brooklyn Twins Fan
I agree with you, and I like your direct nature. Really, the “seller” sign has been established, so let’s move the product. Unload Silva (talk about a lazy player…), Rincon, Hunter, and Nathan. Release RonDL and Ortiz and move in some young talent there. Let’s FINALLY solve this third base mess, and let’s fill the new hole in CF with something more worth the price. TR, The Cowardly Lion, now has to complete this phase. He can’t pull another 2001, when he traded away Matt Lawton, our leadoff hitter, then traded for Todd Jones, Rick Reed, and Shannon Stewart, only to turn in the Stewart trade 17 minutes past the deadline and have it disqualified, leaving us without a leadoff hitter in the middle of a pennant race.
TR is overrated as hell. If only fans knew how much he HATES to deal with other GMs and FAs–to do his JOB–they’d be appalled. (I live three doors down from a Twins beat writer and get a lot of dirt; the man’s essentially a hermit in GM clothing, hiding in his office all day long.) Right now, he has a chance to prove he is a responsible, ingenious, talented GM. You know, he has the chance to substantiate the national myth about his talents. But to leave Silva, Rincon, Hunter, AND Nathan on this roster after Tuesday, he’s nothing but a hack that once looked good in baseball’s weakest division because of a scouting department that’s had a few excellent years.
Sal Butera Jr. will fill the role his father played for the Twins… he will be a poor hitting defensive catcher to back up Mauer in 6-7 years when he’s a 30 year old minor leauger.
The outfielder kid wasn’t even a top 20 prospect for the Mets according to a friend of mine in the business.
Truth is, Brooklyn, the Twins don’t have enough dough to sign Santana either. And, really, how can you justify $25M a year for a guy exiting his prime? He needs to be traded this offseason, with the bulk of pitching responsibility placed on the young-but-talented shoulders of Liriano, Garza, and Baker. But the Santana thing is for real–he’s not worth the money they’re rumored to want, nor is he within the Twins budget, no matter how high it may be by 2009. Have the guts and move him now for a bundle of prime, top-level prospects. WE got his best! We saw his two Cy Youngs. We watched him dice up baseball in 2004 and 2005. Now, move him to a big market team with prospects and fill our holes NOW. You could cure your third base need, outfield needs, and DH needs simply by trading this guy. And, in two years, he’ll be sitting in an LA clubhouse watching Francisco win his 20th on the way to a Cy Young Johan himself once owned but will never win again.
Fact: Johan won’t win another Cy Young. I’ll bet Liriano wins at least three.
I guess I’m focused mostly on ‘07 and ‘08 with respect to Nathan and Hunter. And of course I’m working under the assumption that we can sign Torii. Otherwise I’d obviously look to move him as well. Trading those two would start a major overhaul that I don’t think is necessary. Castillo, Rincon, and Silva are the middle ground trades that make sense here. Without those 3, we still have a prayer in ‘07 and can definitely contend in ‘08. The same isn’t true with Hunter and Nathan in my opinion.
Brooklyn, you’re depressing me…
You complain about his free agent signings, but the fact of the matter is, we only have options at the table scraps of the yanks, boston, LAA, LA, etc. Any small market team will struggle to land big name free agents (salary cap please!!!)
TR has done a great job here. There is a reason he is referenced as one of the best GM’s in all of sports. The problem is the window is closing on our opportunity here and we can’t seem to hold it open. We still have a great core group, and let’s hope he does add by tomorrow like he seems to imply he will. I would guess there may be a team with a bat that might have some interest in one of the players we just got…just a hunch. Package one of those guys with a young arm, and possibly Silva or Rincon and see what we can get.
Lala72-
You really being that we should trade #57 now (end of season, rather?). $25 million is a lot of cash, but he’s worth it-worth it to have him in the new stadium when it opens. He might be able to get $27 or even $30 in a larger market. We need to keep him.
Lavelle, Have you heard anything about the Twins possibly acquiring Dan Johnson before the deadline?
OK I know a savings of $2-million isn’t a lot of money in MLB terms, but in the Twins world it might be enough to help re-sign Hunter. I think that’s what TR is planning for with this move. No one has seemed to pick up on that. He made the only move he could to save some cash and he’s also planning for the future by letting Casilla and this new 3rd baseman play the rest of the season. If you remember, that’s what they did with Koskie, Douggie M, Guzman and Hunter. At some point you need to settle on who your future team is and then let them fail for awhile before they get good. Those two guys will come to Spring Training next year with confidence and can build on their forth coming struggles the rest of this year. And if you can also sign Hunter because of the move, then you still have a damn good nucleus of a team.
Silva–option picked up, 4M…So add that up and what do ya get? 10.6M in wasted dollars that could have gone to a bat going into this season.
Anyone claiming Silva has been a waste of money thus far probably would be better off keeping their mouth shut.
Dustin Martin can play CF and is a plus athlete. As you know the FSL is a pitchers league. Dustin can play, maybe not a future regular but its possible, but very possibly a solid #4 OF.
Hey guys #1 how poor has Castillo’s fielding been this year? #2 I know he doesnt run much anymore but how slow is he when on the basepaths? Does he score from 2b on a single? Sac flies are you confident hell get in?
MetsFan,
#1 Castillo’s fielding has been great, range is the issue. You can’t make errors on balls you can’t get to.
#2 He has the burst on the basepaths when he needs it, you just don’t get to see it very often. Most of the time you will score him from second on a single, sac flies 95% at least, depending on who he is running on.
I agree with many of you. I don’t think we lose that much with Castillo gone. TR got what he could and saved money, exactly what what he HAS to do. I also agree you could trade Rincon and Silva and not affect the performance of this team. Play for 07 look to 08. Sign Santana to whatever it takes. Play em out in 08, go for the championship. If Liriano comes back as the best pitcher in baseball and Garza, Baker, Perking, Boof, and the other picthers become productive players THEN trade Santana. Just because we signed Santana to a long term contract doesn’t mean we have to fullfil it.
Hey guys #1 how poor has Castillo’s fielding been this year? #2 I know he doesnt run much anymore but how slow is he when on the basepaths? Does he score from 2b on a single? Sac flies are you confident hell get in?
Castillo’s fielding has been awful. He’s slick, no doubt about that, but he avoids moving his feet at all costs, has very limited range, and gives minimal effort more often than not. He’s been slow turning double plays.
I’d say he is slow for a second baseman, a little above average overall. He’s not fast to first, he’ll prop his average up with high choppers off of the dirt, but you won’t see anyone rushing throws on routine grounders.
I don’t want to give up on this season now, but they have less than a 10% chance of making the playoffs (according to different stat websites). I am more concerned about 2008–it could be a special year–and TR may not want to enter next year with an untested Casilla. Give him a long look this year, then decide if they may want to look elsewhere in the offseason. In other words, given that they will gamble on Casilla being ready either now or next April, I think now is the better choice. (As much as I liked Castillo.)
Thanks guys for your input.
MetsFan,
I’m co-signing Klob’s scouting report.
“They also believe that they can get Rincon, 3-1 with a 5.89 ERA, back to old form. So the price for him would be high.”
You’re kidding, right La Velle? So, Castillo is expendable but Rincon isn’t? You could cut Rincon this very minute and bring up six guys just like him or, most likely, BETTER. Another fine example of how big of a stooge Terry Ryan is. If they can continue to afford Steroid-boy’s salary then we better not here anymore of this “budget ball” crap come out their mouths.
Freez…
“…those real life GMs and their egos are a lot harder to deal with than most people realize) you also have to make sure you can pay him. These are things real GMs have to think about, that armchair GMs often don’t.”
So you’re a GM then? You might as well be–you sound at least as friggin’ dumb as Terry Ryan is.
Trade Santana? No way. You don’t give up the best pitcher in the world when you still have a chance to sign him and have new stadium revenue coming. Prospects often don’t work out anyway, especially considering they type of production it would take to replace him. I saw a stat somewhere that the twins have been basically a .500 team on days Santana doesn’t start over the last few years.
What about Hunter and Rincon to Philly for that CF prospect (for the future) and Burrell (to replace 07 production) plus another prospect? That may keep us even for 07 and improved for 08 and beyond if it allows us to keep santana and nathan.
LA Velle,
when you say TR is trying to land a hitter, what type of hitter are we talking?
a hitter like troy glaus? or a hitter like jeff conine?
Butera is an organizational player who can fill in after the Twins converted Caleb Moore to a pitcher. I suspect he’ll start at high A ball because Geiger and Feiner are both having nice seasons at New Britain and Butera hasn’t done well at AA ball yet.
His role will be like Crash Davis: Help some of these young pitchers along (Waldrop, Rainville, etc.) until they tap him on the shoulder to be a pitching coach. Not all prospects make it to the major leagues as players. But with his experience, going back to the days when he followed his dad around in the summer, he can be a valuable coaching prospect.
Martin is a big version of Lew Ford (who was also acquired out of A ball). He’s a late bloomer who spent four years in college before turning pro. His stock as a prospect will never be that high because of his age. But he can have a few good years at the major league level if he continues to develop. Right now he’s the second best hitter on the FSL team in terms of OPS (behind Brian Dinkleman and ahead of Danny Valencia).
From ESPN’s Keith Law: “Castillo is a one-dimensional player whose game revolves around his speed. He’s a classic slap hitter who can’t even turn on average fastballs but who hits the ball on the ground and tries to slap harder stuff the other way and beat balls out with his speed. His speed has already started to decline; his range at second base, never great, is now poor, and he hasn’t been an effective basestealer since 2004.”
for everyone that keeps saying out that LUIS CASTILLO WAS BAD AT DEFENSE, WAS GETTING SLOWER, WAS A BAD LEADOFF HITTER, WAS A ONE DIMENTIONAL SLAP HITTER.
answer me this..
WHO DO WE HAVE TO REPLACE HIM?
- he lead the team in average
- he lead the team, and maybe the league in infield hits
- his defense, yet it is declining. he is still one of the best 2nd baseman.
the guy has 2 errors this year and 3 errors over the last year and a half
- when he wants to and needs to run. the guy can flat out pick em up and put em down.
punto is not a luis castillo.
- punto is better defensively
- punto is nto a leadoff hitter
- punto cannot hit
Alexi Casilla
- raw talent
- speed
- defensive lapses
- future leadoff hitter, but basically the same version of castillo
My points are this..
-This trade Hurts the team because we have NO ONE to replace Luis.
-I’m not upset the trade was made, because we were not going to resign him
- im glad TR got something for him
But the main point is this. The team is 6 games back after last nights win and TR needs to make a trade for a Bat. If TR does not make that trade then he gave up on the team and that will not sit well with the players or us as fans.
so TR has a little time today to get us back in contention
rincon, silva should be shipped out.
ortiz released and slowey brought back up
It is time today to trade both Rincon and Silva.
If the Reds can get something for Kyle Loshe, we can get something for them.
Save thier money for next year.
I think that’s the under-reported aspect here: Casilla will represent an upgrade over Castillo in terms of his range, his base running, and the life and energy he brings to the team. Ryan went out of his way last night to portray this trade in a similar light as the Pierzinski trade: Primarily making room for a better younger player. I don’t think that’s just hype.
If you look at why the team has been so inconsistent this year, a big reason is Castillo. When he doesn’t get on base, this team has a lot of trouble scoring runs. And even when he gets on base, he’s not a threat to steal and he’s s risk in the hit and run.
Run the numbers: How many first inning hits has Castillo had this year? What is the Twins record in those games? The last two years, he’s been near the bottom of the league as a lead-off hitter. The Twins need to find someone else to lead games off if they have any hope of contending. With his lack of range and inability to play in day games after night games, it was time to upgrade to a younger, faster player and start developing a new lead-off hitter.
Butera is a backup catcher in the future if he can put together enough offense. I don’t think the Twins see Morales as a major league catcher. And if he is and this year with the bat isn’t a fluke, he is way too valuable to backup anyone. Twins fans have gotten spoiled by Mike Redmond, most backup catchers don’t hit as well as Punto has this year.
Martin is a puzzle. If its true he can play center field with above average range and arm, then he could develop into a solid fourth outfielder. If not, he looks like a tweener without enough power to hold a job as a corner outfielder or bat off the bench.
One thing to remember. Ryan certainly had other choices. The Twins scouting reports on these guys must have suggested they had some value.
mh
I still don’t understand why you keep pointing out that he leads the team in infield singles. Is that a good thing? I would guess he is probably last in outfield singles if there is such a stat.
LaVelle–
Can you explain the downside of grabbing Ensberg? The last two years, he got onbase at a .390 clip and hit 59HR. He hurt his shoulder, but if he makes a comeback to anywhere near that level, that would be a pretty cheap way to improve an obvious weak spot on the Twins roster. Why are risks taken on RonDL, Sierra, Batista, Ponson, ROrtiz acceptable, but a risk on Ensberg is not?
I am frankly a bit surprised by how little the Twins got for Castillo. They traded for two players that really will have no impact on the team. One because he will always be behind Mauer (unless there is an injury) and two because the other player is a long ways away from being major league ready. I am not impressed at all by this trade. It shows no commitment to the present team, and it offers little improvement for the near future. It’s a salary dump plain and simple. This is not Kyle Lohse here. Castillo is a legitimate, proven player. I don’t mind getting a minor league player, but are you seriously telling me they couldn’t get a prospect that would at least be attempting to fill a hole on the Twins by some time in 2008? I don’t buy it. I really don’t. Sorry.
Are people really suggesting Silva is a waste of money? Don’t get me wrong, I think I was violently ill for about 4 days after we picked up hit option, but he’s turned around this year. His splitter has helped his cause, he’s locating down in the zone better, and he’s not hanging as many pitches as last year.
He’s been bad lately, I agree, and I can’t say I’m overwhelmed with confidence when he takes the mound, but looking at how expensive pitching is on the market right now, having a guy who can go out and throw you a quality start over half the time (and a few complete games even) is worth $4.3 million to me. Ponson was wasted money. Ortiz has been crap, although he at least gave us a few good starts (more than the Pon-tsunami can say). Rondell has proved to be wasted money (not shocking). Punto is wasted money.
Carlos Silva, is surprisingly the best move Terry Ryan made this offseason. Well, that and picking up Torii’s option.
As for the Castillo debate…
A lot of people are knocking his infield hits, and a lot of people are saying how valuable they are. I’m somewhere in between. A hit’s a hit. If he’s getting on base, it’s good for the team. However, an infield hit with RISP isn’t what you’re looking for, especially not without an established 2-hitter behind you. A chopper off the plate is nice to start an inning and put some good speed (even if it’s a shell of his old speed) on the bases. A chopper off the plate with a runner at second and 2 outs leaves us praying that Bartlett/Tyner/Punto can drive in the run, and while Bartlett is getting better, he still needs some work. The talent is there, but he needs to work on his swing and stop fouling every pitch he sees down the right field line.
I think it hurts the Twins for now, but I understand why Terry Ryan made the move. I don’t understand why he got a catcher who has been in the minors for 3 years, just recently made his way to AA, and is sporting a .227 career BA with 5 or 6 (can’t remember which) errors through 30 games in AA. That’s what upsets me about the deal. I know we’re not gonna get someone like Pelfrey for just Castillo, but at least get a position we’re weak at. Mark Kiger, their AA 3B would’ve been MUCH better with me. We were in the position of power on this one, I think Butera was a terrible thing to settle for on Ryan’s part.
Maybe the player Ryan wanted to make room for was Punto. Punto always manages to be in the line-up one way or another. And there seems to be a never-ending enamoration for the guy from Gardenhire all the way to the top.
Remember, there was a reason why Houston released Ensberg. It would be the Bret Boone signing all over again.
Lala72,
While I am not priviledged enough to live near a beat writer, I know Mr. Ryan from my time working with the Twins as an intern a certain number of years ago, and from the times I had spoken to him, he certainly is a man who walks to the beat of his own drum. He is treated almost as a deity by most of the high level front office staff.
And I remember reading many stories in the past about Krivsky and Billy Smith handling A LOT, if not most, of the FA signing negotiations and contract extension talks…so tell me again what Terry does all day?
I too think Ryans reputation has caused many naive Twins apologists to look at him as infallable and always right regarding the makeup of the team. However, in the last 3 seasons there has been many more suspect moves made, money wasted on washed up vets way past their prime, and therefore I think the criticism of Ryan today is certainly warranted.
FInally, I was listening to Hartmans show on Kfan last week and heard Ryans interview where a caller basically called out his recent highly questionable draft picks and made some very salient points, to which Ryan dismissively scoffed and refused to acknowledge the question and criticism. I mean how much more immature can you get?
Today is a big day for big baby Terry. Let’s see if he can gut one out here…
“They also believe that they can get Rincon, 3-1 with a 5.89 ERA, back to old form. So the price for him would be high.”
You’re kidding, right La Velle? So, Castillo is expendable but Rincon isn’t? You could cut Rincon this very minute and bring up six guys just like him or, most likely, BETTER.
Name one guy in AAA the Twins could bring up that has anything approaching Rincon’s stuff. Keeping Rincon and working through the control issues he is having is the obvious choice.
I’m glad La Velle brought up Jose Morales. This guy is quietly having a very nice year at Rochester…I say give Rondell White a couple more weeks before replacing him with Morales as the DH.
La Velle–What is the leash on Rondell White?
“Ryan went out of his way last night to portray this trade in a similar light as the Pierzinski trade: Primarily making room for a better younger player. I don’t think that’s just hype.”
Except in the AJ trade, the Twins picked up an MLB reliever/closer and two respected pitching prospects.
What they BECAME is unfair to compare to this trade, but what they were at the time was still more than what the Twins got for Castillo.
LOL Klobs,
Rincon is finished! Just look at his numbers the last 3 seasons:
-His hits per inning is going up to the point where he has given up more hits than innings pitched.
-His strikeouts has gone waaay down each of the last 3 seasons to the point where has fewer K’s per innings pitched.
-His WHIP has risen to 1.75 this season which is pathetic for an allegded setup man.
-His batting average against is a horrendous .298 this season and has gone up each of the last 3 years.
Juanie had a nice run a few years ago, but you are fooling yourself and drinking the kool-aid if you think Rincon will find himself and return to old form. I’ll take any triple-a or double-a pitcher to eat some innings for the league min. in the pen over this wasted 2M.
So there again, we see a team with a tight budget alotting 5.1M on two end of the pen relievers. Money well spent TR!
Agreed “T”! Thanks for the reminder. We got Nathan out of the deal, and that ain’t chopped liver.
Umm…hello, we also got a certain player named Liriano out of the deal…
You guys that keep hoping for Joe Nathan to be traded either don’t have a long Twin’s history or don’t know this roster. Does anyone remember Ron Davis, Twin’s closer under Tom Kelly? Only had one pitch, gopher ball. Made my stomach churn even remembering his name. Lose Nathan and you don’t have squat on this roster or in AAA. Pat Neshek is not a closer. He is a gimmick. See too much of him and he will be hit to a fare thee well. Why do you think Gardenhire only brings him in periodically and not every day? Think about it.
Ever since Rincon threw his churlish tantrum over getting busted for using roids and the subsequent suspension, I haven’t liked him or respected him. I would be happy to see him go to be honest.
BobbyD,
That is the stupidest thing I have read on here today. Gardy only brings in Neshek every other day b/c he is a gimmick? Are you serious? By that rationale the entire Twins bullpen is a gimmick b/c Gardy only periodically brings in the other guys too….
Pitching 101: A reliever cannot pitch every single game because his arm would eventually fall off, or he will injure himself due to overuse.
C’mon bobby, you’re better than that comment…think about it!
Exactly the point. This is not the a repeat of the Pierzynski trade as TR would like us to believe. This is all spin.
The Castillo trade was a good trade. Anyone who honestly looks at this team knew it was going to happen. He wasn’t going to be resigned. We knew that at the beginning of the year. We weren’t sure what if anything we would get in compensation we would get when he left as a free agent so get what you can for him.
Cassilla is the 2b for next year. We’ve known that since spring training. We aren’t going to the playoffs (sorry for the news falsh) So give him two months to cut his teeth and make rookie mistakes when it doesn’t matter.
Hunter won’t be traded because we’ll get two draft picks when we let him walk. (He will walk)
Ford and Silva would be traded but someone has to want to take them.
Look for Piazza as a possible deal like Nevin last year, or Boone the year before.
I don’t think Bobby is better than that comment…that comment puts him in Craig territory.
Neshek is a gimmick?????
Neshek is a fantastic reliever….allow me to clarify what qualifies as a gimmick:
1. Circle Me Bert
2. Bert’s “calls”
3. Dick’s “calls”
4. Bert discussing his birthday
5. Dick talking about his Minnesota high school math
6. Bert talking about his California math
7. Dick trying to impress every cutsie out-state viewer with his fake knowledge of Minnesota geography
8. “At the major league level”
9. “High chopper over the mound”
10. “Middle-in”
11. Interviewing the dorkiest of fans on the face of this Earth!
Those are gimmicks…Neshek, he’s a hell of a pitcher.
If TR compared this to the Pierzynski trade (I watched the game at a restaurant… no sound, no pre-game/post-game) that’s pathetic.
As for Neshek being “a gimmick, not a closer,” that’s just plain garbage. Look at his K-rate, BAA, WHIP, everything. I’d rather take the chance on Neshek than pick up Nathan’s $7 million option. I personally find closers overrated though, so that’s just me. $7 mil is a lot when you’re trying to sign guys like Morneau and Santana though, and especially if you’re going to entertain a Hunter extension. Not sure if they are still, but I’d rather see the 7 million to towards keeping Justin here for a LONG time.
I think the Mets actually wanted Castillo. They want to win now, and I think that they would have been willing to part with just a wee bit more than they parted with. Mets win this one…not the Twins.
When TR compared the trade of Castillo with the AJ trade he was talking about having a prospect in the minor leagues who can step into the role in my opinion.
Comparing the value returned is absurd. When SF picked up AJ they knew they would have him under contract for at least a full year. He was only 26 and coming off a year he put up a 312/360/464 batting line. Of course he is going to have a much larger return than a 31 year old 2B hitting 304/356/352 with only 2 months left on his contract.
Now I agree that I would have liked to seen more return, but I don’t think any other team battling for a playoff spot had a hole to fill at 2B. No team out of the playoff picture has any reason to pick up a rent a player type. So, who else, or what else, could the Twins have got for him?
My biggest issue with the move is the idea that Gardenhire will start playing Punto regularly at 2B and not give Casilla a chance to play.
I think this trade makes the org stronger but hinders our chances for this year. I think it shows TR to be a very prudent GM. However, I wonder how many other contending teams when asked to spend the value we got would do it. What is the value of contention? One more month in the race, or even making it into the playoffs. It’s difficult to see that we are gaining alot. But maybe this approach is what makes TR as good as he is.
Everyone, fun dialogue here! I’m a long time Twins fan from North Dakota, relocated to FL after college. Great memories of the old “Met” in Blmgton, have a signed baseball w/ Carew, Oliva, and Dan Ford” signatures got back in about ‘78. Anyway, my thought on the Castillo trade is it’s Okay - getting another C prospect puzzling, but TR needs to follow up with a trade to bring in a Bat for 3B/DH. Trade Silva and/or Rincon. Disagree with BrooklynTwins fan, don’t trade Hunter or Nathan - that would be waving the white flag for ‘07 and with only being 6 gms back it’s way to earlier to be doing that. Let’s make a strong ‘07 playoff push in Aug & Sept!
I have stayed fairly quiet on the nuts and bolts of the castillo trade but I want to offer these points:
-If the mets were the only team looking for a 2B, then that shouldnt have automatically precluded Ryan for asking for more in return. The Mets had Ruben Gotay playing way over his head so far, and IMO needed Castillo much more than we needed to trade him.
-Yes the Phillies only gave an A prospect back to the Sox for Iguchi, but once again, the Mets needed him more than us, so we should have AT LEAST gotten one high a prospect with a high ceiling, not two marginal minor leaguers. And why not throw in one of our pitching prospects in the deal to try and get one of the Mets’ two top OF prospects?
-The Mets have built their team to get the World Series, anything less would be seen as a failure and therefore, all we did yesterday was help them immensely by filling their 2B void. Valentin or not, Castillo is a major step up for their infield and post season chances.
-It honestly makes ZERO sense for the Twins to trade their valuable leadoff hitter yesterday, and then go get a bat to help them today. ZERO. If that is what indeed happens, as has been speculated by Joe C., I’ll be very upset and think that TR has basically lost his mind.
I know the catcher thing seems puzzling, but remember we didn’t target Butera. Rather the deal was about the Met’s getting a 2b and the Twins dumping the salary. Prospects at that level are often evaluated based on tools and the perception of getting to the bigs. Position is fairly inconsequential at that level. Plus a good defensive catcher is always needed. He’s still at least two years away and at some point red retires.
Yankees got Betemit from the Dodgers for Proctor. if the Twins could’ve gotten Betemit for Guerrier, i would’ve done that in an instant.
Brooklyn Twins Fan… you’re going to have to face the music… Castillo’s OPS+ has been below league average since he’s been with the Twins. he’s on the back end of his prime and his legs could give out for good at any time… he’s just not as valuable as he used to be.
OPS is not a good stat in evaluating leadoff hitters.
I think the Luis trade was probely one of the worst trades ever next to the David Ortiz Trade. Yea sure his OPS wasnt the best.. but he was 2nd in the league with infield hits and was always on base and was not a sore eye in the field unlike Bartlett. Why would they trade for 2 minor leaguers who are not even readdy to come up to the Major league level? They should have at least gotton a starter or a bench player not some no name players who are in class A and AA. My hope is that they will get someone who can bring in all these players who are sitting on the bases and get another central division championship
Do you guys do your homework?
Like seriously…
David Ortiz wasn’t traded.
Who needs facts, Erik, when you can just make stuff up?
Just like all the people saying Castillo only had 1 error. I’ve read it at least 4 or 5 times.
“I think the Luis trade was probely one of the worst trades ever next to the David Ortiz Trade.”
Ortiz wasn’t traded, he was signed by the Red Sox as a free agent.
Big Pappi was not the hitter then that he is now. He was an oft injured player that left the Twins when his contract expired. I still like him as a player, but he is not the same hitter now that he was back then. He had power, but he was injured as much as RonDL
Amazing that people are so delusional to think that Castillo was an irreplaceable cog in our team. As it was, he was admitting that the wasn’t playing all out, saving up for the right moment. How can any player be effective when they are running less than full speed? How can his range be very good in the field when he doesn’t have the legs to get him there? I played with a guy years ago that had the glove that sucked everything up that was by him, however, it had to be by him, since he was so slow. I would much rather see an error a week from a player with great range, than no errors from someone that can’t even get to the balls to begin with. Seems that the differance between hitting .275 and .300 is ONE hit in 10 games. Do you honestly think with Castillo’s limited range that he was seriously earning his keep? Castilla can probably eat that extra hit by simply fielding the position with additional range.
Valid point, at least in my eyes.
Kevin, almost as valid as a point that our future second baseman’s name is Alexi CASILLA.
Sorry to pick on you, but I think you are officially the 100th person to throw the “T” in there.
Come on people, learn his name. He’s gonna be around for awhile.
That said, I agree that Castillo is replaceable; Only thing that upsets me is adding a catcher to the minor league system when we would’ve been better off with an infielder, preferrably a AA 3B. The Mets have a promising kid named Mark Kiger as their AA 3B who I feel the Twins should have gotten. We were in the position of power since the Mets wanted/needed Castillo, and it seems like TR just decided to take whatever they threw at him without bargaining.
And if he did indeed bargain for a career .227 catcher who just got to AA after 3 years in the minors, is batting .188 there, and has 6 errors in 30 games… we might officially need a new GM.
Oh, dang, I guess I errored. Won’t be in the same league as Castillo then 
Anyway, thanks for pointing that out. For some reason I just got in the habit of typing the “t” in there since their names are so similar.
Yeah sorry to pick on you, just something that’s been bothering me.
Red Sox just got Eric Gagne. Talk about disgusting bullpens…
The future at 2b (at least for the short term) is Nick Punto… not Casilla. Thank god we found a way to keep his stick in the linup.
Steve from Fridley: “Castilla” is a lot better to me than “Cassila”– or how about “Torii” as “Torri”? There is at least one of those every day up here. It drives me nuts.
I mean, I know this is Torii’s first year with the team and all….
The future at 2b (at least for the short term) is Nick Punto… not Casilla. Thank god we found a way to keep his stick in the linup.
No. They would not bring up their top position player prospect and let him languish on the bench. Casilla is the primary second baseman. Punto is the primary utility player.
They haven’t called Casilla up yet though, unless I missed that bit of info.
I imagine Gardy gives Punto about a week at 2B, then goes with Casilla once Punto sucks it up.
As much as I liked Castillo, I think this trade makes sense. Castillo will be a pricey veteran on the free agent market. I actually think this signals that Ryan intends to try and sign Hunter. To have a hope he needs to dump a guy like castillo and hope that some of the infielders from the system can come up and fill in.
Casilla was called up as soon as the trade was made official. It was in the same press release.
The only reason he wasn’t in the lineup last night was because the deal wasn’t made with enough time for him to get over to the Dome (they literally had to pull Castillo from BP)
The New York Post carried this today:
“Neither Butera nor Martin is viewed as a major prospect, and in fact, one team that had ranked 23 Met players as some level of prospect had neither one on the list.”
“No. They would not bring up their top position player prospect and let him languish on the bench. Casilla is the primary second baseman. Punto is the primary utility player.”
I think what you meant to say is “I would not bring up my top position player…”
TR said at least 4 times in the press confrence last night “Punto and Casilla” will fill in at 2b. Marney Gellner said after talking to Twins officials that Punto will get “the majority of starts at 2b over the next 10 games”
Just look to the track record with Kubel, Garrett Jones and Cuddy… Casilla will sit on the bench more than his fare share.
Pointing at the promise of Casilla is something people are doing to deflect the reality of Nick Punto starting half or more games at 2b.
I keep hearing about the ‘promise of Casilla.’
Hope ya’ll are right, because I just don’t see it.
Just look to the track record with Kubel, Garrett Jones and Cuddy… Casilla will sit on the bench more than his fare share.
Please don’t group Cuddyer and Kubel with Garrett Jones.
ha i went a little ahead of myself and miss stated that ortiz was traded and i knew that he wasnt i just forgot but i still make my point clear the twins know how to blow things hard core and by not signing someone to fill that missing gap just makes TR look stupid
Letting Ortiz go was a bonehead move. But I agree with Harrison, this is one of the worst July trades in Twins history. Ryan gave up a club house leader, consistant hitter and one of the best 2nd basemen in baseball for next to nothing. The Mets GM’s comment said it all, “we gave up two kids that definitely have a chance to play in the major leagues.” It would have been much better to take your chances with the team making the playoffs as it was than to take a chance that one day one of these guys will ever come close to producing Castillo caliber baseball. Dumb move. Wrong move.
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