Twins Postgame: They can’t win like this
Posted on August 28th, 2007 – 11:14 PMBy La Velle
The Twins are playing better baseball but they still can’t gain ground on Cleveland and Detroit. The thing about Tuesday’s loss is that the Twins killed themselves with mistakes.
Boof Bonser left a ball up to Travis Hafner and then fell behind 2-0 to Grady Sizemore. Both turned into homers. And it’s deflating when a team rallies to tie the game and then watches the other team take the lead back in the next frame.
Torii may have been safe at first when he dived back into the bag - but he shouldn’t have made that big of a turn in the first place.
Jason Bartlett got a bad bounced on the ball that ate him up in the first inning - but that run came around on Hafner’s homer.
And I agree with Gardy that the situation in the eighth called for a lefty reliever. But that’s a big situation to bring the inexperienced Cali into. I may have started Neshek.
I think the offense is back to thinking it can score a few runs now, which could be a boost, but it’s not enough if they don’t clean up the other things.
In order to pull this off, they have to be on top of their game. Runners have to get moved over and driven in. Bases have to be run well. The defense has to be tight. By the way, did Nick Punto make one of the plays of the year, or what?
Jason Tyner has five career four-hit games.
Jason Bartlett is batting .514 over his last eight games.
Torii is batting .361 over his last 15 games.
Joe Borowski leads the AL with 38 saves. How has he pulled that off?
56 Responses to "Twins Postgame: They can’t win like this"
“Joe Borowski leads the AL with 38 saves. How has he pulled that off?”
Just goes to show that the save is the most overrated statistic in baseball.
Exactly. Getting three outs without allowing three runs isn’t exactly the most demanding task in baseball.
Gardy (who probably gave the orders for this) has to get of the situational relief pitching at times. The situation required a an experienced reliver to a left handed inexperienced pitcher. This seems rather obvious to me. What is wrong with he management that they could not figure this out is beyond me.
Tyner is hitting .300
Nice.
Saves are a worthless statistic even more so than a pitchers “wins.”
The ERA (and maybe opponent BA) is the only stat that tells you how good a pitcher actually is.
The Twins are good enough to mop up on the also-rans in the AL, but not good enough to run with the big dogs. So after they win the series against KC, don’t get your hopes up that they are going to sweep Cleveland to get back in it. There best hope is that Cleveland AND Detroit fold like a cheap suit. They are young and lack depth. Not many teams make the playoffs with that combination.
I still don’t understand why bringing in a left handed reliever over a guy like Neshek or Guerrier was the right choice.
Do people, mainly the coaches, realize that Neshek has better numbers vs. LHH’s than Cali does? Do they realize that Guerrier also has better numbers vs. LHH’s than Cali?
In that situation, when you’re down one run late in game that you MUST win, you use your best players…and in that situation, using Cali instead of Neshek or Guerrier was a huge mistake…and it cost the Twins.
“Joe Borowski leads the AL with 38 saves. How has he pulled that off?”
His saves remind me of Guardado’s. Bring him in with a three run lead and usually he’ll get the job done. Otherwise it ends (as it did last night) with him in a VERY tight spot before finally closing it out.
shame on Terry Ryan for having given up on the Twins when they still would have had a chance.
I speak of the Castillo trade. You dont trade a 300 plus hitter, when you have so very little offense anyway, if you still think you have a chance.
It turns out that may have very well been the difference between being where they are now, and still being in the race.
LaVelle, how much does it take for you to call out Gardy and the coaches for not having the players prepared for their jobs, or for not putting them in a position to succeed? Everyone notices that the fundamentals aren’t there, but no one will call out the coaches. It couldn’t be more obvious — this has been developing for several years now.
Sean I have to disagree. That sounds like bitterness after a loss (one that probably ended their season).
I thought management made some big errors this series…particularly allowing LNP to play (I don’t care about the sick defensive play he made), which has been a season-long error…the decision to not use your best relievers…and the decision to bat Casilla leadoff on Mon. night were all mistakes if you ask me.
However, the sad truth is this thing probably was just not meant to be this year. Hunter has been heating up lately but we needed a clutch hit in the ninth and he could not provide it…then Morneau does even worse by watching strike three to end the game.
I don’t attribute a painful loss (of a game and, likely, a season) to Gardy not having players prepared for their jobs or not putting them in a position to succeed. Gardy has done a fine job IMHO and the guys and gals on these blogs (myself included) are the toughest Twins critics…because we love them so much.
The only thing….to me….it was Bush League for Gardy to allow himself to get tossed out of a game that meant so much over an overrun by Hunter….he should’ve just gone out to get Hunter and headed back to the dugout. The showmanship goes overboard when the game means that much…TK would never have done that. TK would’ve ran out to get his player and walked back to the dugout with him.
THE WHOLE CASTILLO THING DOESN’T MAKE SENSE. I THINK HE WOULD BECOME A CLUBHOUSE CANCER ONCE THEY ARE OUT OF THE RACE. I THINK TR IS SAVING MONEY TO RESIGN TORRI.THE 4 YEAR-56 MILL. IS PROBABLY ALREADY IN PLACE.TORRI WOULD BE UNDERPAID THE FIRST 2 YEARS, OVERPAID THE THE LAST 2 YEARS. THE DENIALS ARE A FACESAVING BIT.
Jason,
Who’s responsibility is it for the lack of fundamentals this season…and in seasons past? Are you suggesting the Twins are playing good solid fundamental baseball? I agree, they are not third in the division because Gardy is a bad manager. However, Sean is right that there have been an increase in lapses on the field and at the plate the past few seasons. Any theories? Who should be blamed for that? Players? Managers? Minor League System?
One way Borowski gets a lot of saves is having his team ahead in the 9th.
The Twins, if they really are a small market-low budget team, need to sign the hitters, trade veteran pitchers like Santana(it’s depressing) for more position players and use the pitchers they’ve developed.
They are a mid market-mid budget team.
I would not be surprised if the Twins sign Hunter and Santana.
I said this last night, but why not bring in Nathan for the eightth? With an off day tomorrow it’s not like he’s being overworked.
Revenues for signing Santana and Hunter would surely increase. How many shirts, seats, and beer they’d sell would be interesting to see.
I’m not so sure Santana wants to resign. The team’s sucky offense has already cost him one Cy Young award.
I doubt Santana is as ticked about the Twins as that one comment. Yet, if the Twins do nothing this offseason to solidify the needs at 3B and DH, yeah, he might be ready to move somewhere else.
Unless he give the Twins a sizable discount, it seems unlikely they will have the $$ to significantly upgrade at DH and 3B.
Left-handed pitchers must be used against left-handed hitters late in games. It’s a Major League Baseball rule. Look it up. Chapter 87.2 (Subd. 7a).
What is Gardy and his staff supposed to do? Break the rules?
LaVelle-would a trade of Johan for Kemp,LaROCHE,and Kershaw of the DODGERS MAKE sense?Kersaw is the LIRIANO OF three years ago.Might have add players
I think the idea of Johan dazzling a new league with his change-up for a least three years untill they got the hang of it would be tempting to the Dodgers.
Gardy/Ullger were faced with no great choices in the eighth. With two switch-hitters and two lefties, it would be preferable to go with a lefty. Given that both Guerrier and especially Neshek have been less effective lately, any choice could have blown up. Cali had good outings in Baltimore. It looked like he pitched scared against the Indians.
While Cali deserves his share of blame, if Neshek gets two outs without any further hits, the Twins theoretically tie the game in the ninth. Neshek’s numbers since the All-Star break are pretty ordinary. It is not a sure thing that either of them would have held the Tribe at bay.
Cali is in the majors to get out lefties. If he can’t do that, he shouldn’t be in the big leagues.
Sizemore’s OPS versus Lefties is about .060 points lower than versus righties.
Hafner has been BETTER against lefties this year. BETTER, Ron. He hit’s BETTER when you bring in a pitcher who throws baseballs left handed.
For Martinez, the difference is negligible.
So, why exactly would you bring in the worst pitcher on your staff to face the toughest hitters in the division with the season on the line, simply because of handedness?
Another perfect example of “old school” baseball wisdom getting in the way of the facts.
Shores and Co. are over-thinking this one….(I’m a lefty Shore…would you rather have used me than Neshek?)
Bottom line is those were the most critical relief innings of your season…you don’t use a guy who’s been in AAA all year. Neshek has been very good against lefties this season.
It’s a catch-22….ala The Office.
If you don’t use Cali…what is the point of having him on the roster? (flatblade)
If you don’t use Neshek or Guerrier…whats it he point of having 8th inning set-up men on your roster?
I think this is a perfect example of how Rincon’s struggles have really impacted the bullpen. Neshek has been less the dominant recently…most likely because he has logged so many innings….because Rincon has been so bad. Once roles get confused and relievers have to carry more of a late inning load…we end up in situations like last night.
Again, BFK, over-thinking it.
When the season’s on the line you use your best relievers, period. Neshek and Guerrier are those guys.
It’s a game you have to win. Nathan is the only fresh reliever in the pen, and happens to be the most talented reliever in the pen.
You use Nathan in the bottom of the 8th and worry about a “save” if the need arises later. Giving up 2 runs in the 8th in an absolutely crucial game, without ever using your best reliever, is stupid.
Saving Nathan for a ’save’ doesn’t make sense. You should be so lucky as to have to find another reliever to get the ’save’ in that situation.
Chief…true. Sometimes I grow weary of managers not using their closers in the 8th when on the road. If Gardenhire felt Cali was the best bet (maybe thinking Neshek or Guerrier weren’t), heck, go with your closer….shut the door and give your guys a shot in the 9th. Alas.
Neshek and Guerrier are wearing down. Cali is inexperienced and the heart of the order is coming up. Nathan is well-rested and proven in game situations, but they have to save him for the ninth in case they take the lead. Someone has to be able to get the bottom of the order out for the save.
Hahaha. No kidding. I miss the days when 2 inning saves where the norm.
Wait a second here…we blew out Baltimore on Saturday and Sunday….why in God’s name should Neshek and Guerrier be anything but well rested for the Cleveland series????
I think using Nathan in the 8th is spot on since D&B were saying last night that Gardy would like to get some work for his closer.What’s wrong with Nathan pitching the 8th and if you tie the score trotting Joe out there for a good old fashioned two inning save?Especially since he is apparently well rested.
LEN3: On Gardy defending the Cali move,Did he make that call from within the clubhouse (my assumption), or was that Ullgers move? It has been talked about before whether a manager who has been thrown out continues to manage from within the clubhouse,is that the case or not?
They’ve pitched a lot of innings this year, so they are losing effectivness. LEN3 stated in his pregame notes last night that the pen was worn down. Don’t know who he was referring to, but I assumed it was Neshek and Guerrier.
Guerrier in particular is in uncharted waters.Last year he was asked to pitch once or maybe twice a week as the long man and had plenty of time to recover.He has pitched great this year but it seems as though the consistant work is taking its toll.Nesheks delivery has to take a toll on his arm.The loss of Crain,and Rincons demise has led to a thin bullpen.
I think Doug is spot on regarding Guerrier. I also don’t think Gurrier was ever quite as talented as his results indicated early this year.
Regarding Neshek, I don’t think he’s been the same since Gardy used him 6 times in 7 days, and 7 times in 9 days, July 13-21.
Jason, it could hardly be bitterness related to a loss when I didn’t even pay any attention to the game. All I know is that the fundamentals of this team have steadily declined for six years, the manager never maximizes his team’s chances to win, and yet everyone seems to think he’s Midas.
I’m just wondering (as reflected in my comment above) how much it takes before people start realizing what was apparent to me about four years ago, and start questioning the managerial and coaching abilities on the staff.
Even if this team goes to the playoffs for 11 straight years like the Braves, they almost certainly won’t have playoff success with Gardenhire at the helm. About the only possible way is if Santana and Liriano would pitch them all the way through, like Schilling and Johnson did for the D-Backs a few years ago.
Shores,
I don’t think people get your humor or sarcasm.
Oh well.
Bringing Cali to face the heart of the Indians order was a mistake…a huge mistake. It was a MUST win game, which means you probably shouldn’t sit back and wait to use your best reliever to date until the opposing team already has the bases loaded.
The Twins are playing better baseball but they still can’t gain ground on Cleveland and Detroit. The thing about Tuesday’s loss is that the Twins killed themselves with mistakes.
So, if they are killing themselves with mistakes, how is it that they are playing better?
Sean if you were so smart four years ago…and we’ve won four division titles in five years…why did the Twins not hire you as their manager?
Everyone knows the postseason is a crap shoot. When you get there 4 of 5 seasons, I’d say that speaks for itself as far as how good of a manager you are.
Now that said, I’ve taken issue with Gardy a number of times this season and he is not above criticism…and sooner or later (probably sooner) his postseason record will start to become an issue….
However…to say he doesn’t handle the fundamentals correctly or that he is obviously not cut out for it is plain wrong.
You don’t hear a lot of people whining about how awful Bobby Cox is and he has one World Championship in, what, 15 playoff appearances or something?
“I speak of the Castillo trade. You dont trade a 300 plus hitter, when you have so very little offense anyway, if you still think you have a chance.”
Blah blah blah. The Castillo trade isn’t what doomed this team. It was the use of “veterans” such as White, Cirillo, Ponson, Ortiz, Batista, Castro, Sierra…etc.
But those topics have been beaten to DEATH. Let’s move on.
“The Twins are playing better baseball but they still can’t gain ground on Cleveland and Detroit.”
They can’t gain ground on Detroit because no matter how much “better” they play, they still can’t play better head-to-head with Cle or Det.
The Twins are now…7 back…right?
I believe they’re 4-8 or something like that against Cleveland this season?
As my mechanic would say, “There’s your problem.”
T: how do you not include LNP as one of their problems?
I still cannot believe–and I know this has been beaten to death but damn it I’m going to keep beating it–I cannot believe that both TR and Gardy continued to allow LNP to play everyday for 5 full months.
Absolutely irresponsible.
And of course, he’ll be back in tonight.
What’s the story Gardy: Do you want to make Web Gems or do you want to win games? I’m pretty sure A-Rod isn’t concerned about if he makes Web Gems or not.
That was a phenomenal play…I loved it…I still can’t believe it…
But you know they’re going to show that thing about 4-5 times during Twins coverage tonight…
Maybe the team would be better served if they showed an LNP strikeout or pop-up 4-5 times on replay each night. Maybe someone would get the message.
More impressive than that unbelievable play by Punto was Brian Buscher’s night at the plate. Enough said.
Tk was quoted as saying that Gardenhire might be “too nice”. I’m guessing that that is a big part of the decline in sound fundamentals. Case in point-how many hours a week does Punto work on his bunting? In my opinion, he should be working very hard to become the best bunter in the AL, and that is possible,but only if the manager insists. So,who’s to blame? Also’ when is Gardy going to tell Hunter to stop trying to steal second base by taking off BEFORE the pitchers first move?It worked early last yeat but now it’s foolish and hurting the team, so why doesn’t the manager tell his STAR CF to KNOCK IT OFF!!! ??? Any answers?
Many factors go into a playoff run:
1-Pitching; the Twins are getting it now, but weren’t getting it earlier.
2-Hitting; Twins were getting it earlier, but not know.
3-Timing; see above, also the series verses the Tigers, getting hits with runners in scoring position.
4-Playing good baseball; not real consistant.
5-Luck;gotta have some. Last night when Bartlett doubles off the 3rd base bag I thought he had some. It’s a game of inches-not a lot has gone the Twins way this year.
Jason, just because I can recognize that a guy isn’t getting the job done doesn’t mean that I claim that I can do it better. I don’t claim I can hit better than Punto, but I sure as hell know he isn’t getting the job done. The same is true for Gardenhire and most of the coaching staff — they ain’t getting it done.
Unfortunately, people like you want to give them a pass because the team has been successful for a few years. That’s the short-sightedness that has gotten this team where they are (and will be, until the ship is righted).
Sean
Whats gotten this team where they are is a roster filled with questionable major league talent.Five or six all-star type players complemented by first or second year players and guys who are just happy to be collecting major
League pay checks isn’t going to get it done.Thats the fault of the G.M.
The Cleveland press points out that the players feel that Cabrera, the young secondbaseman has been a spark for their team.Offensively the Twins cupboard is bare with no such help in site.Thats an organizational fault that again must be dropped on Terry Ryan.
And even if your theory on Gardenhire and the coaches is correct (and I’m not a huge Gardy fan),that again is on the G.M.s lap.I’d say Ryan has fallen into more good moves than he created.Even he admitted on radio this year that the famous A.J. trade was lucky for the most part.
I do want to give him a pass because he’s been to the post-season 4 of 6 years (assuming they don’t make it this year).
That’s pretty good, yes.
I find it amazing how the tide turns on this thing…Sunday morning and afternoon the radio was buzzing about Gardy as a candidate for Manager of the Year. Now we want him fired?
Like I said, his loyalty to LNP is gross negligence, but in-terms of overall, other than being petty and getting thrown out of huge ballgames where the season is on the line, I give Gardy high marks.
“T: how do you not include LNP as one of their problems?”
Punto was a free agent aquisition. If you’ll note, my list of names was primarily those brought in the last few years as free agents. Though you could’ve just as easily thrown Punto in the “etc” bin.
“Like I said, his loyalty to LNP is gross negligence”…
Gardy’s not entirely to blame for Punto. He started the season cold, but other players have done that in the past. Morneau, Hunter, Cuddyer, Mauer…they’ve all had cold streaks. Considering in April and May it was “early” in the season you can’t just quit on a guy after the year he had. Otherwise you might as well give up on Morneau and Mauer since they’ve both gone stale of late.
Getting into June it became clear he wasn’t the .290 hitter they thought him to be coming out of last season. And yes it may have been time to fix the problem, but what can Gardy do?
Gardy couldn’t play Cirillo everday on those knees. Rodriquez isn’t exactly an upgrade, and we all know what happens when Cuddy plays third.
So then what? Ford…Tyner…Mauer? Who goes to third base instead of Punto?
Yeah, there are guys in the minors…and potential trades…but is that Gardy’s decision to make? Can Gardy just go to Rochester and pick up Tolbert, Buscher, or Watkins?
Without a backup 3rd baseman, who DOES Gardy play at 3rd? Can’t answer that can you?
So then Buscher gets called up. And they start working him into the lineup mroe and more. And just when it looks like he’s the new fulltime guy, off he goes to the DL. So now what can Gardy do?
So they call up Watkins, and he starts hitting the snot out of the ball. This of course lands him on the DL. Once again, who plays third?
Or remember when Bartlett came up lame in Seattle? (Or was it Anaheim?) Who takes over at SS while Watkins is already covering 3rd? Who does Gardy put there?
Yes, in the past week or so (now that Gardy FINALLY has Buscher, Casilla, and Bartlett all healthy) Punto’s continued playtime has been a bit of a puzzle. But let’s actually give it till the end of the season to see how much play time he gets barring injury.
You can’t blame Gardy for playing with the hand he’s dealt. He didn’t get a replacement third baseman until Buscher finally got called up. And that’s the GM’s responsibility.
*aw crap*
That post two up should read “Punto was NOT a free agent”
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