Midday update
Posted on November 28th, 2007 – 11:56 AMBy La Velle
Got further confirmation today that the Twins want Clay Buchholz, Jacoby Ellsbury and prospects for Johan Santana, but Boston is reluctant to give them up.
We’ve also heard that several names have been kicked around during talks, including lefthander Jon Lester, shortstop Jed Lowrie, outfielder Brandon Moss and major leaguers Coco Crisp and Kevin Youkilis (note: got the impression that Youkilis’ name was barely kicked around).
It comes down to what combination the sides can agree on. The size of Santana’s contract extension will also determine how much Boston - or any team - is willing to give up.
The Yankees, Mets, Angels have reportedly spoken with the Twins about Santana, too. Stay tuned.
181 Responses to "Midday update"
Trade Santana to the Mets for David Wright. DO NOT trade him to an American League team. That is flat out stupid.
Youkilis?!? That’s a new name. Still think Bucholz & Ellsbury + prospects is the best pkg from BOS. Hopefully the Twins brass will stick to their guns on that one.
But good GAWD! A BOS rotation of Santana, Beckett, Schilling, and Dice-K is a nightmare for the Yankees.
The nice thing is with BOS, NYY, and NYM all involved, someone is bound to throw the kitchen sink at Smith for Santana.
Then seriously, if the BoSox think they can substitute Coco Crisp for Ellsbury, then can, as my father is wont to say, “get bent.”
What arrogance on their part.
Living in NY and hating the Yanks, I’d prefer that Santana went to Boston. I also like Boston’s prospects more.
All teams involved will keep raising their offers.
I still think the Mets will end up including Reyes as part of a deal.
Youkilis is a player I have coveted for a long time.He came up as a thirdbaseman.Sounds like the Sox are serious ,or just jacking up the price for the Yanks,either way it works well for the Twins chances of getting maxium value for Johan.Youkilis would help to balance out the line up with his right handed bat.
If the Mets offer Reyes and one of their OF prospects, then BAM! we have to make that trade…
Although a Yankees offer that includes Hughes, Cabrera, and one of their OF prospects might be a winner as well.
Crisp, Buchholz and Youk. Where do we sign?
Still have chips to play for outfield depth/DH.
“get bent” haha.. ya beat me to the punch line..
i guess im stuck with the following
if the mets want Johan.. give up reyes.. otherwise “sit and spin”
the sox want him.. give up elssbury.. otherwise “sit and spin”
oh,, funny how nathan is coming up in trade talks now days.. maybe the twins brass does read these blogs.. cuz some of us have been talking about trading nathan and johan for months!
if the mets want any part of this deal REYES of WRIGHT .. will have to get included in the deal.
otherwise you have to believe the twins could care less about the mets..
its a yanks/sox bidding war
Isn’t it funny,yesterday was filled with doom and gloom by some after reading Joe C’s article.Now we are all fawning over the possiblities!For a real fan this is a great time of the year, especially when your favorite team is involved in all the talk.I love it.
NO to CRISP…why are people hung up on him?
I will grant you that if the Red Sox traded us Youkilis and Buchholz, I would take Crisp. But if they think they can offer us Lester and Crisp, then I would rather keep Santana and let him walk at the end of ‘08. And I’ve been a huge proponent of trading him.
With that said, the odds of SOMEONE offering an attractive package for Santana is pretty high, in my opinion. SOME team out there would die to have Santana on their staff, even for one year.
“sit and spin”
HILARIOUS!
Regarding Crisp, I think what scares me is that the Twins front office might be “obtuse” enough to make that deal.
Even if the Twins had to take Crisp to get Youkilis than they should make that deal.
JoeC’s article (and TwinsGeek’s blog, for that matter) about how the Twins won’t get great value for Santana was wrong for one simple reason… he and his sources were applying logic to the situation. Nobody SHOULD give the Twins the kitchen sink (thanks CJ) for Santana when they have to turn around and pay him big money in an extension.
But logic went out the window in baseball deals a long time ago (see Hunter, Torii, et al). Right now the Mets, Yankees and Red Sox are all leaking information about which players they WON’T include. But that’s merely to try to convince the other teams to keep their offers low. Those 3 teams will notch up their offers one after the other in an effort not only to sign Santana but to keep the other 2 from getting him.
It’s not logical… it’s baseball in the great Northeast.
People need to stop suggesting Santana to the Mets for David Wright. The Mets will NOT trade David Wright. He is their most marketable player, and he’s under a team-friendly contract. What purpose would trading him serve for the Mets?
Bucholz, Ellsbury, and Moss. Sign that deal. No Crisp!!!!!!!!!!!
Reamke is right. Wright is not even close to realistic
well here is the thing in regards to the sox and yanks and mets..
them 3 teams KNOW they can resign santana.. and they know if they trade for him then they wont have to have the bidding war at the end of the season..
sure teams dont want to give up 3 players and then sign him to a $120+mil contract… but if the yanks make the trade.. they have santana for 7 years.. and they know that..
same for the sox.. the mets wont push as hard for johan because no one in the national league is going after him.. unless the braves or phillies make a play at johan.. the mets wont give up anything close to what the sox and yanks will
In the end, I still think the Yankees will probably be the one that gets Santana.
So if Santana goes and if the Twins don’t sign Silva, those in favor of a trade can be filled with glee all they want: the Twins still don’t have any great and reasonable starting pitching left, respectively, with the possible exception of Liriano–assuming he still has it.
Sigh.
Re trading Johan to the Mets - Reyes AND Wright have to be part of the deal? If they would just throw Beltran and Wagner in there, then maybe, just maybe, I’d listen to them. My goodness, the speculation is goofy.
Garza, Baker, Slowey don’t count?
Bclem: I would think the Twins want no part of Beltran’s salary…just one man’s opinion though.
JimCrikket you are correct and it is what a few of us were saying yesterday in spite of Joe’s article.As soon as one saw that the Yankees were publically invovled in talks it had to heat up rather quickly.These mega budget teams just can not help themselves.
I think Youkilis has too much service time in for the Twins liking. He came up to the Red Sox in 2004.
More speculation:
sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3131358
I’m glad the Twins are sticking to their guns about Clay Buchholz, Jacoby Ellsbury, and another prospect. If we got Lester in the deal, I’d be stunned.
I saw a rumor somewhere else of Boof to the Rays for Delmon Young (I think on the Twins ESPN board where a link was to a Rays fan site that said Boof was in Tampa and said the Twins were going to trade him.). I’m not really believing in this rumor. There is no way I’d think the Rays would take Boof for Young.
But if we were able to get Lester and Clay Buchholz from the Red Sox, we could trade Garza somewhere for a third baseman since the Red Sox offer would also solve our CF problem.
I don’t want Crisp or Youk. If we can’t get the dream trade with the Red Sox, than I would try for Crisp in another trade. We’ll see what happens.
Seems like we got outselves an auction.
Price MUCH higher if/with NYY & Boston involved.
Here’s hoping…
Regards,
Crisp and Youkilis are both career .280 hitters Crisps OBP is 329 Youkilis’s is 383. Youkilis would be the huge up grade at 3b while Crisp would be a average CF good/great D and Ave hitter. I can live with that if they can fill the DH spot and keep Monroe for less money.
santana for
reggie willits - 430ab .293 avg 0hr 34rbi 20 doubles 27sb
brandon wood - he might be good but hasnt proved a thing
nick adenhart
this trade would be terrible..
the angels might as well trade for cabrera.. cuz this trio wont get santana’s right arm, let alone his left
MH: where did you hear about that?
Does anyone else ever write a lot and then have the server tell you that you can’t post so fast? Even when you haven’t posted anything and then it erases it.
Zach, yep it happens to me as well.
“Slow down Cowboy”
TA
mlbtraderumors.com
TA, Garza’s mediocre at best so far, and doesn’t seem to be grasping how to be great and adjusting accordingly; Baker has more potential, but has yet to show true consistency with his efforts and is not fierce like Santana; Slowey is a question mark, and it is simply too early to decide much of anything yet on him.
The Twins need workable, consistently great or good starting pitching to try to balance the weaker parts of the rotation, or those who enjoy seeing the team win are really going to be out of luck for a very long time.
Bb: I have to disagree…I think we started seeing something out of all three of those guys last year…yep, they were inconsistent, but I think we saw potential.
How much would it cost to sign Youkilis to a 4 year deal (which it appears would buy out all his arbitration years and one year of free agency)? Is 22-25 million unreasonable?
Todd
it was a writer that had suggested that trade.. and it goes on to say that them 3 players for santana would be to much for the angels to give up for 1 year of johan.
IMO..
sure wood might be great.. but the angels dont have a 3b, have not had a 3b for a couple years.. so why hasnt wood been given more playing time?
willits cant hit a HR, and we need some POP.
and sure this ADENHART kid might be decent in the future..
but we have enough pitching prospects, garza, slowey, baker, boof, perkins, manship, blackburn.. we dont need another
Do you guys really think Ellsbury is going to be an all-star type player? I am not so sure of that. Although I do think that Buchholz is the real deal and has ace type potential. he would look real good next to Garza and Liraino. Plus he could jump into the rotation this year instead of waiting a year or two for a guy like Kershaw.
mlbtraderumors.com
has a report taht the twins and rays are in talks about barlett for baldelli..
NOPE, HATE IT
bad move
MH: great points, all…I think we need to look at guys with some pop.
Our buddy Sid is saying that the Twins have no obligation to spend money in the next few year (despite the club debuting in a new stadium in ‘10). God almighty, you can’t make this stuff up.
Did you guys know Bucholz used to steal and sell computers in high school? That was part of the reason he was drafted like 50th instead of top 10.
Bartlett for Baldelli? Yeah, not sure about that. I might be one of the few people that actually thinks Bartlett will turn out okay.
Terrible trade. Baldelli can’t stay off the DL
Ballboy you are crazy if you think Baker has better potential than Garza. Baker overachieved last year and we should try to convince some team that he turned the corner and then deal him. Even without Johan I still like a rotation of Liriano, Garza, Slowey, Perkins, and whatever young arm we get back for Santana. If that young arm is a Hughes or Buchholz we still would have a top ten staff.
TA, fans started seeing something to greater or lesser degrees with each of the three in question, but until they can be virtually dependable like Santana, or moderately dependable like Silva, it’s going to be a lot of cold water thrown on those in the stands and living rooms come opening day.
Batters and fielders are not the complete answer; there has to be great pitching or the team will be also-rans yet again.
Boston can keep their fat 1st baseman. The Twins don’t need that guy.
Sid is senile and kisses up to anyone in power
Are the twins planning a fire sale?? I have read now about: Santana, Garza, Bonser, Nathan, Bartlett, Morneau…whats next, any idea
Todd Anthony,
I agree that is a bad trade. I hope their fallback isn’t Punto at short. I think that rumor is junk and I think Bartlett is a good ballplayer. He has good range and I think he will cut down on his errors. He has little pop, but has proven he can hit .300 and has the speed and baserunning ability to steal 30 bases.
Zach: I’m not sold on Ellsbury either,although a lot of people think he’s the goods.I’d rather take Youk off their hands.The Twins need to balance themselves with some right handed pop.Part of me says the Sox are playing the game with the hopes that the Yankees over pay.Like I said before, either way is good for the Twins.The Yankees need Johan more than Boston does.
Crisp had 2 seasons that kind of skew his average.
2002 .260 1 HR
2003 .266 3 HR
2004 .297 15 HR
2005 .300 16 HR
2006 .264 8 HR
2007 .268 6 HR
I don’t want him diluting the talent involved in the Santana trade. Fine if we get him independantly and replace his lack of power with a decent 3B, or DH, but otherwise I don’t want him.
The boston deal could potentially be great but I’d really hate to have to hear bill simmons talk about how great johan is, plus hasn’t minnesota given boston enough?
Ortiz, KG, Kind of Moss, Maroney, and now Johan?
A Bartlett trade only makes sense if the Twins are certain they’ve got another SS coming in (Reyes, for example). Otherwise, all it accomplishes is opens up another hole to fill in the infield. We have enough of those already. Baldelli for a tier 2 young pitcher is all I would consider.
Ellsbury figures to be more of an all-star type surrounded by a very good offense.
If the Mets decide to dangle Reyes (there is no way they put Wright out there), then you better believe that the Yankees will counter with Cano, and the Red Sox will definitely want to include Ellsbury then.
Again, it’s great for the Twins that BOS, NYY, and NYM are all involved, they will only keep driving the price up. But if Bill Bavasi in SEA pulls his annual brainfart move and for some reason dangles Jones, Balentien/Clement, and Morrow, then that becomes a top-notch package instantly. So there are still a couple of wildcards here, never underestimate the thought process of one Bill Bavasi and one Ned Colletti. Especially Colletti, with the Angels grabbing Torii, I have a feeling that Colletti will be hard pressed to make a splash in order to keep up.
Without Santana and Silva, that is one pathetic rotation. I would say it’s good for 59 wins and 103 losses. The Twins better get some pitching in return for Santana.
JimCrikket..Punto can play SS, as can Casilla…
Not that it’s all that thrilling…just saying….
Right now I’m torn, do I renew my DirecTV MLB package or not? Not only will I waste money, but I’ll waste my summer in CA watching another Twins team hover around .500 and miss the playoffs. The trades this winter better give me some hope.
zach, when I last checked I still had my “sane” rubber stamp on my forehead, but maybe it’s washed off with all the stress of watching my favorite team float down the gutter to the corner grating. Garza is NOT at the point to be considered legit as a season-long starting pitcher. Maybe if he has some excellent tutoring over winter, perhaps, but he was not consistent enough last season for my taste.
I really hope this Red Sox talk drives up the price to Cano and Hughes or maybe Gomez and Reyes. You know that there is no way that the Yankees will let the Red Sox get Santana. If we were about to do that deal they would call and throw in Chamberlain. I also think that the Red Sox are considering acquiring him just to prevent the Yankees from having a counter to Beckett. It is a little bit of a mortage of the future, but Santana more than replaces Buchholz and then they just lose a promising centerfielder. That price really isn’t that high considering you prevent that Yankees form getting the only other pitcher that scares you in October other than Beckett. I am so happy the Red Sox have gotten into these talks, this is going to allow us to get a haul from one of these ultra-competative teams.
BB: I don’t think I would categorize Silva as dependable…he’s had a couple of okay years, but he’s also been as equally infuriating with his consistency. Remember ‘06, he was HORRIBLE.
With the Bartlett rumors, what if it coincided with Boof and Bartlett to TB for Delmon Young, not Baldelli. Sure, we’d have a need at short, but you get an OF, then you can entertain BOS offer of Bucholz, Ellsbury, and Lowrie. Lowrie takes over at short (BOS has no place for him w/ Lugo), Ellsbury in CF, and you could float Young to left. Until Kubel can prove his knees won’t start aching halfway through the year, he should be the full time DH. As for Monroe, screw him, don’t tender him a contract. You are not out anything if you don’t sign him.
TB is very high on Bartlett, so if you package him w/ a starter like Boof, you could net Young in return. But if it’s straight up Bartlett for Baldelli, I’d tell Tampa to stick it.
I think you have to trade Santana. 15-13 last year? What good is having an ace if we’ll still lose 2-1? We need bats, and more bats. Maybe the pitching won’t be as great and we’ll lose 8-6 on nights we would have lost 3-2. The difference is the losses will be more fun and we’ll still be building for the future.
I’d really hate to see bartlett traded. For some reason he’s one of my favorite players. If we got Reyes couldn’t we try to move bartlett to 3b or 2b… right now he’d certainly be better than Punto and Casilla.
I think the Yankees and Red Sox are B.S.ing the Twins regarding players they are not willing to trade for Santana like Cano and Ellsbury. Santana may be the best pitcher in baseball, and those two teams are bitter rivals. Which ever team gets Santana will doom the other team for years to come. I would give them a deadline, like 12/6/07, and let them know that Santana will be traded before the close of business at the Winter Meetings for the best offer. Cano and Ellsbury will be available, you can count on it!
TA, Silva was much better in ‘07 than in ‘06, and that is the point…he is improving, as opposed to others brought up too soon and suffering accordingly. If Silva had some offense to back up his performances, his stock value would have dramatically increased this off-season.
I’ll grant you that Silva had a nice year last year…but who’s to say that ‘07 was the norm, rather than ‘06. It’s a crapshoot.
while I naturally hope i am wrong, i think we are bsing ourselves if we thikn Boston or NY will ante up TOO much for Santana. Especially when they feel the cheap Twins management is determined to unload him anyway.
jb, NO WAY give a deadline. That only works against us. If we say we will trade for the highest bidder by a certain date, then we will wind up with little.
We need to demonstrate that we will not trade Johan unless we get a primo deal. We have to show we are willing to sign him if we do not get said deal.
Silva is a barely average MLB pitcher, his only value is as an innings eater. That is a useful quality, but nowhere near worth being paid 8-10 million a year. See ya later Silva it has been beautiful watching you throw sinkers that don’t sink for the past two years and only being able to throw a 90 mph fastball even though your a behemoth of a man. I would rather have Perkins in the rotation over Silva. I also for some reason am very high on Bartlett. He is scrappy and plays the game the right way. it sounds crazy, but he kind of reminds me of Jeter in a way with less power. He often finds a way to get on base he always shoots those balls to right field like Jeter. I would not trade him, I consider him part of the core to build from with Morneau, Mauer, Cuddy, and Kubel.
By the way MH, mlbtraderumors.com is a nice site. The guy who runs it does a good job “coralling” all of the baseball info disseminated from various media outlets. I know a couple of people here have slammed his site, but I think he’s “in touch” with what’s going down.
Kevin, who is to say the Twins ownership wouldn’t immediately unload a player traded for Santana for someone less expensive to better their bottom line. Fans assume trade stuff will be done to better the team, but look what happened with they sent Castillo packing? Have to remember that the Twins management is not fan-friendly.
If we do trade Santana(I still hope we dont) it should be to the Rockies for Garret Atkins and prospects or maybe Todd Helton
have to agree with crikkett earlier, yesterday i said the locals were preparing us to not expect much to cover the front offices screw ups. if you look at the boston and ny papers they talk completely different.
history:
does anyone remember when we lost both lyman bostock (the next carew) and larry hisle after the 77 season and we got treated to bombo rivera, hosken powell and willie norwood. if you thinks now is bad nothing compares to those years.
Funkytown: “JimCrikket..Punto can play SS, as can Casilla…
Not that it’s all that thrilling…just saying….”
Well…yeah… but for that matter I can play SS, too. But I can’t hit to save my soul and, at least lately, neither can Punto and Casilla. And without Bartlett, now you’re back to having both of those guys in your batting order instead of one (which is scary enough).
I suppose we could see if the AL would let us use our DH to hit for an infielder and let our pitchers do their own hitting.
An alleviation to some of our problems would be for Kubel to fufill his potential. He was the top prospect in the minors like three years ago and the Twins organization was sure he would be a .300 25 100 guy in our everyday lineup. I know he tore up his knee and my grandpa can run smoother and faster than him, but why has that affected his bat?
Kevin, who is to say the Twins ownership wouldn’t immediately unload a player traded for Santana for someone less expensive to better their bottom line. Fans assume trade stuff will be done to better the team, but look what happened when they sent Castillo packing? Have to remember that the Twins management is not fan-friendly.
Garret Atkins is good, but he is not that good. Plus he is already in (oh the horror) arbitration.
Trade Santana to the Mets for David Wright.
They are NOT getting Wright from the Mets. He’s still under a relatively “cheap” contract comparred to how well he’s playing and how big a “star” he is.
DO NOT trade him to an American League team. That is flat out stupid.
IF Santana goes to Boston, at most the Twins may face him once or twice in the course of the season (or in the case of what happened with Matsuzaka they’ll only face him once)
This isn’t a situation where Santana could pitch against the Twins 5-6 times in a season.
If you’re concerned about the postseason…let’s worry about GETTING to the postseason before we worry about who the Twins face.
Sorry about the slight double posting…loading was slow so resent with a minor correction.
Find more grist for the mill here: http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7498162.
Ballboy, I am afraid you are right on that. look at the Castillo trade. They got basically nothing. They were just unloading salary
You are right, this team management is Carl money friendly, not fan friendly, even though the public ponied up 375 million for a stadium. One would think Carl would at least to pretend to try to look like he is appreciative of that.
The old goat is so senile and miserly he simply doesnt care. But if he doesnt care for the fan base, i would think he would at least care for his own legacy, but apparently he doesnt care about that either, its all money
I think if Eloise was still living, this would be handled differently
It’s weird because honestly if I was Minaya and the Mets, I would strongly consider a Wright for Santana deal. It actually makes a lot of sense on the field and makes them a more balanced and stronger club. I think they won’t strictly for off the field reasons like marketing.
Hey how bout Nathan for Ryan Braun, think the Brewers will go for that?
who is to say the Twins ownership wouldn’t immediately unload a player traded for Santana for someone less expensive to better their bottom line.
That’s just looking for a reason to complain. Can we stop making up situations in which we get to complain and actually discuss the facts?
but look what happened when they sent Castillo packing?
Castillo wasn’t going to help the Twins. They stunk with him this season, they stunk without him this season.
Stop treating Castillo like a full salary dump and see it for what it was. The odds they’d have recieved any sort of “picks” for letting him walk was incredibly low, combined with the fact there was no point in keeping him. They thought Casilla was ready, turns out he wasn’t. That was the unfortunate downside.
Please don’t tell me you’re also one of those who treated the Ortiz trade like it was a salary dump.
I can’t wait until we either re-sign him or trade him. This speculation is getting tiresome and ridiculous. No one really knows anything expect for Smith, Steinbrenner, Epstein, and Minaya.
Kevin, interesting point on the late Mrs. Pohlad. I wonder if Carl’s kids aren’t basically looking out for themselves with the future in mind and just lobbying to throw a basic, non-competitive team onto the field to keep the franchise playing until they get to cash in and sell it when the time comes.
If I read one more Boston news article where the journalist tries to make it sound more than reasonable that Crisp should be packaged and not Ellsbury I’m going to start sending hate mail.
TA- You’re right on the money, pal. What freaking arrogance. And if we actually DO subsitute Crisp for Ellsbury… well, then, I’ll start writing hate mail for that too. Just to a different person (paging Mr. Smith).
Ballboy, I am afraid you are right on that. look at the Castillo trade. They got basically nothing. They were just unloading salary
Read my above post. They did the best they could in the Castillo trade. If they let him walk at the end of season (which they were going to since he can barely run anymore) they owuldn’t have gotten ANYTHING and you’d all be just as mad as you were when they traded him.
You are right, this team management is Carl money friendly, not fan friendly, even though the public ponied up 375 million for a stadium. One would think Carl would at least to pretend to try to look like he is appreciative of that.
Did the public help fund some of the stadium? Are you against it? I can never tell with your posts. You never seem to share how you REALLY feel.
I can’t wait until we either re-sign him or trade him. This speculation is getting tiresome and ridiculous.
I can’t wait to see people like Kevin come up with a reason to hate Pohlad regardless of how the Santana situation turns out.
I just don’t understand the speculation for people like Crisp and Matthews. If we’re trading Santana, we’re contending we need to rebuild, so why get overpriced players that wouldn’t be in the stadium in 2010. The centerpoint of this trade should be hot prospects, rather like what Mark Shapiro did with the Indians–dumping all his players for Triple A guys with bright futures. It worked.
“If I read one more Boston news article where the journalist tries to make it sound more than reasonable that Crisp should be packaged and not Ellsbury I’m going to start sending hate mail.
TA- You’re right on the money, pal. What freaking arrogance. And if we actually DO subsitute Crisp for Ellsbury… well, then, I’ll start writing hate mail for that too. Just to a different person (paging Mr. Smith). ”
Hilarious, Patrick…you’re totally dead on. I think THEY think we’re a bunch of rubes up here in the sticks 
gobbledy,
I remember those days quite well. Watching Willie Norwood in CF was truly an incredible phenomenon. His name was synonymous with OF incompetence for at least a decade in Minnesota.
I’m wondering if, given the fact that as much as $43 million from last year’s opening day payroll is likely to come off the books, the Twins would consider taking on a contract in a Santana or Nathan deal. That could have the effect of enhancing the prospect package. It’s been known to happen. The Marlins told the Sox that if they wanted Beckett, they had to take Lowell. The Sox may want to unload Lugo in that way. The Mariners may want to get rid of Beltre that way (although he is way to rich for the Twins’s blood). Any thoughts?
The Yankees need Santana alot more than the RedSox.Boston has a great mix younger veteran pitchers,young studs,and an ageless knuckleballer.The Yankees have a bunch of over priced aging pitchers and a stable of young guns.And no answer for Beckett in the Playoffs.I can’t see the Yankees going into the season with three youngsters in their rotation as Girardi has suggested.New York will up their offer unless they are willing to give up the division this year,and up it greatly if it comes down to keeping Santana from Boston.
Why does Ryan Braun’s name keep coming up? No way in hell Milwaukee trades him.
Oh, and Wright for Santana does not make sense if you’re the Mets.
Santana = Ellsbury, Lowrie, Lester/Bucholz
Boof & Bartlett = Young & Baldelli
Nathan = Hart & AAA 3B (Can’t remeber name.
Sounds like what I’m hearing.
T, a fan doesn’t have to look for a reason to complain about Twins’ ownership and management: all that miserly manipulation and bait-and-switch gaming is a fact. Castillo was excellent at second on defense and was not at all bad as a lead-off hitter. For them to dump him when they did basically told all of us in the stands and at home watching the game to take a flying leap. They should have researched better on Casilla, and to simply call that an unfortunate downside is understating the impact of this move. As for Ortiz, the Twins tried to have him hit one way, and the Sox said go ahead and try it your way instead. The Sox were right. I think it is a consensus among fans that Ortiz should have been kept, but the reasoning for him doing so well out east has as much to do with Ortiz lighting his own fuse based on his treatment in Minnesota as it is about the Red Sox looking at him differently in terms of batting style and purpose.
The Marlins told the Sox that if they wanted Beckett, they had to take Lowell. The Sox may want to unload Lugo in that way.
Wasn’t Lowell still performing relatively well at the time? I’m not famliar with Lugo outside of last season, but wouldn’t it be a bit crazy on the Twins part to take a guy they REALLY want if they’re forced to take somebody they really don’t need?
Or is Lugo still an upgrade over the guy he’d replace? (He’s SS right?)
Unless they could find a way to spin around the turn Lugo into something from a third team. And you know, that might be what it takes in the long run. One team sends a HUGE contract to another team so they can bring in Santana, then the Twins take from the third team the players they wanted.
But that’s getting to intricate. A two-team deal is doable with both parties coming out fairly well.
Crisp is really one of the best CF in the game, his defense is top notch and he should have won a GG this year, sneering at the mere mention of his name makes little to no sense. IF the sox make a trade for Santana it will be with EITHER buccholtz or ellsbury, but certainly NOT both
and talk of Youk is hilarious, Theo loves him, as does the entire fan base, Youk’s not going *anywhere*
They should have researched better on Casilla, and to simply call that an unfortunate downside is understating the impact of this move.
There’s no research that can be done to see how a guy will handle the mental aspect of the big league. He tore it up in the minors, but there’s no way they could’ve forseen he’d turn into a mental case once he got up with the club.
Casilla wasn’t ready for the big league atmosphere. That much can only be seen once he’s gotten regular play time.
And you’re talking about the wrong Ortiz. I’m talking about the one that pitched last year.
T, Lowell had a bad year and a HUGE contract
Ah, a BoSox fan in our midst?
sneering at the mere mention of his name makes little to no sense.
I see the sneering as mostly being because he’s not Hunter. Which has really struck a nerve with some people.
Regardless of who comes in CF this season, (even if it’s Rowand) anything he does wrong will be blown out of proportion simply because he’s not Hunter.
It’s going to be tough this year for that guy. Whoever it is.
T, Lowell had a bad year and a HUGE contract
Thanks for clearing that up. I wasn’t sure on the details.
So it looks like Boston pulled a Twins style move and brought in a lousy player with a huge contract. The difference is their guy worked out. Irony of ironies isn’t it?
i mentioned this in a precious post..
but this is what annoys me..
at the trade deadline this season the twins were still in the playoff chase..
yet we unload castillo, ortiz, cirillo..
for what? just to save a little money??
the organization had to of known that hunter was not coming back.. they knew they couldnt afford him! they had to assume they were not going to be able to resign santana.
i think its an absolute slap in the face to the team and the fans that they didnt make a move to try and make one last run at the playoffs!
Yeah following Hunter & Puckett is like following Rice, Yaz And Williams in Boston, great things will be expected.
I just don’t think Crisp is that good…rather than paying a guy 11 mil over two years with a mediocre, at best, OBP and SLG %. Hell, we might as well play Tyner in CF if that’s the case.
No way should the Twins waist time it Coco Crisp. Only people floating that garbage are people with Boston interests.
Twins need to keep fielding offers until the Mets include Reyes and then hammer that deal down.
t can anyone think smith could figure out a 3 team trade? he made the monroe trade and didn’t even know what he had to pay him. maybe it was a bad day and everything will turn out great.
i hear the yankees are offering mickey mantle, yogi berra and whitey ford but we have to trow in punto.
T, Lowell had an absolutely terrible ‘05 and virtually everyone in baseball, the Sox included, thought he was done. last winter they were still trying to trade him. And no, Lugo would probably not be an upgrade at SS (unless the Lugo of ‘05 miraculously reappeared), but that’s not th epoint. If, hypothetically, taking Lugo to get Ellsbury involved in the package, why not consider it? Even if you have to get a 3rd team involved. Even though a 3 team deal can get intricate, isn’t a GM paid to make the best deal possible, whether it’s intricate or not?
Wait a second, you are complaining that the Twins got rid of Ortiz and Cirillo last year???? I think the point is very clear with Castillo. The team got something for nothing. Nobody on this blog knows what happened at the trade deadline. How do you know these salaries were not cleared so they could add a bat, but the trade did not work out?
BallBoy: Ortiz’ success in Boston has everything to do about him being in the middle of a great line up, staying healthy,and maturing as a hitter.Would he have been a better option for the Twins at DH.Absolutely.But he wouldn’t have put up the numbers he has in Boston.And if I’m not mistaken his learning how to take the ball the other way while he was here has served him quite well in Boston with the Green Monster.And don’t forget the Sox took a gamble on him.He spent the first month of his first season in Boston riding the bench.They didn’t realize what he would become when they signed him.Nobody did.
Ellsbury and Melky Cabrera are okay, but nothing special. If the Red Sox/Yanks place a high value on them, the Twins should tell both teams to keep them.
Boof and Barrtlet will not get get Young and Baldeli, there is no real need to trade Bartlett he has only played in the bigs for 2 seasons give him a break. If the Twins would have to take on Lugo he could play 2nd base.
I would love to see the Twins get Cory Hart from the Brewers in 249 career AB
48 doubles,12 triples, 35 hr, 121 rbi,
339 obp, 505 SLG. Even if he was all we got for Nathan it would upgade our hitting, I do think we could also get a prospect. The Brewers are Talking about non tendering Cappiuano (sp) he had a rough year but he may be worth taking a look at.
The Crispy One does not even have a mediocre ops. He does not get on base and he does not hit for power. That’s a bad combo. He is terrible offensively and the Twins need (drumroll please): offense.
From Charley Waters:
“The Twins have had no contract talks with first baseman Justin Morneau since the end of the season. Morneau is eligible for salary arbitration this winter.”
BRILLIANT
“Crisp is really one of the best CF in the game”
Yeah, um… No he’s not. He’s got a slick glove, but I can think of quite a few CF who are better in the field.
“Regardless of who comes in CF this season, (even if it’s Rowand) anything he does wrong will be blown out of proportion simply because he’s not Hunter.”
I disagree. Especially if we pick up an Ellsbury or Gomez. People will give the kids some leeway. Anything Crisp does wrong and gets grief for won’t be because he’s not Torii but will be because he’s Coco freaking Crisp.
I would feel sorry for poor Cano if he was traded to the Twins. What a demotion!
T, I didn’t realize the 2007 Twins’ Ortiz was blog-worthy for mentioning. My bad. I guess he ate up innings in throw away games, so I appreciated him for that.
Good point, Patrick. If we acquire a young guy (e.g. Carlos Gomez or Melky Cabrera), I think people will realize that he’s young with upside, whereas with Coco Crisp, he’s closer to his twilight years rather than his peak years. Just my opinion though.
Pat, you’r right. Twins management better not think Baby Jesus is more important to the long term success of the team. Because Twins fans believe it’s Morneau.
Better get something good for Santana that is signable by the Twins as WELL!!!! Lets not forget why these trade talks are happening!
And NNNOOOOO!!! TO COCO CRISP!! This has to be some sort of joke right??? Are they really serious??? WOW!! If you’re going to be stupid and trade for him I’m going to puke
IF the Red Sox offered you both Ellsbury and Buchholz, the deal would end there, they would not include a third or fourth player!
Boston would probably be willing to include more players if there able to hang onto both Buchholz and Ellsbury.
How about a package of Crisp, Lester, Craig Hansen, Jed Lowrie and Justin Masterson and Michael Bowden.
Bowden is probably the only name there whos not ready to contribute in 2008, but should be ready in 2009.
Hansen could slide in to your closer role if they trade Nathan and Lowrie could move to third base. Crisp is in center and Lester, Bowden and Masterson could all be in the roation in 2009 with Liriano.
Travis, do you think you’re making a trade for Kris Benson? Uh, no…we’re talking Johan Santana here.
You people in Boston can keep your Coco Crisp. God you guys must think we’re a bunch of rubes.
Not talking to Morneau yet?
I wonder if they haven’t had a few other things on their plate right now? Maybe after they know what they’re doing with Santana and Nathan they can turn their attention to Morneau and Cuddles.
i’m not a coco fan but he did just turn 28 so he’s not over the hill yet. the next 3-4 yrs should be his best but i don’t think he’s the answer.
Lets not forget we ARE the Minnesota Twins. Youkillis and Reyes are establisheded players and they will be due a big contracts. It’s obvious the idea of big contracts scares the crap out of the twins, we have not even signed Morneau yet. I see the Twins getting prospects and average players for Johan. All because of front office stupidity and owner greed…
Travis = Beantown proaganda.Not biting.
if you think the names i mentioned are nothing more then low level prospects then get a clue. Aside from Ellsbury and Buchholz there 5 of the 7 best prospects in our system.
Yanks say Cano is untouchable..
thus is sounds like melky/hughes..
what holes do melky and hughes fill?
well really they dont fill any holes..
we HAD HUNTER, and HAD JOHAN… so we downgrade to melky and hughes..
still need a DH, and 3b ….
so trading johan does nothing to fill NEEDS
I’m more of a Fruity Pebbles fan myself, but willing to work out a trade for Count Chocula.
Okay, he might not be old, but he’s just not that good…but in typical Twins fashion, that will be their big pickup this offseason.
“Bitter, party of one…”
Twins should use Boston and NYY at the beginning of the Santana negotiations to drive the price up. Then as they begin to stall, bring in NYM and LA Dodgers into the fold and try to make the trade to an NL team knowing what the likely value of Santana is. Makes more sense to get him out of the AL for the short and long term.
Okay Travis, you’re obviously the preeminent baseball authority on this site. Get over yourself.
bitter..party of all of Minnesota..Carl Pohlad is a curse..
Time to go apply for the Help Wanted ad for Carl’s money duster position.
*Takes his ball and glove and walks away*.
they suck
Im not claiming to be anything more then a fan, but as fans, sometimes we dont always know much about other teams prospects, trust me when I say the names I mentioned, if Boston offered them all, thats the best deal Minny will get unless the Yankees offered both Hughes and Chaberlain in a deal, which they wont.
No one thinks Crisp is the answer, it would depend on the other players the Twins would get, I’m sure Crisp would be a trow in player for Boston to unload his contract and lets face it he is better than our current Centerfielders.
synonyms stingy, close, niggardly, parsimonious, penurious, miserly mean being unwilling or showing unwillingness to share with others. stingy implies a marked lack of generosity . close suggests keeping a tight grip on one’s money and possessions . niggardly implies giving or spending the very smallest amount possible . parsimonious suggests a frugality so extreme as to lead to stinginess . penurious implies niggardliness that gives an appearance of actual poverty . miserly suggests a sordid avariciousness and a morbid pleasure in hoarding .
Learn more about “stingy” and related topics at Britannica.com
Travis,
Thoughts on a Lester,Ellsbury, Moss/Lowrie deal?
Travis: The Twins don’t need to fill three rotation spots with young arms,it’s the one thing they have plenty of.Get a clue.And for the best left hander in baseball they would need more than a AAA shortstop as the answer to 3B.Go paaaark your caaaar!
Im not sure Boston would consider Crisp a throwin, but they aren’t willing to deal Ellsbury, and the Twins need a CF.
I think Boston would consider putting Brandon Moss in the deal, but he isnt much of a centerfielder, more a corner OF player.
Unless Boston gets something of value in a deal for Crisp they just assume keep him as a 4th OF. His contract really isnt that much $11MM over two years.
The Sox are talking with the Rangers about him and have told the Rangers they want three prospects for him.
niggardly implies giving or spending the very smallest amount possible
…You may want to be careful on how you toss that word around.
thus is sounds like melky/hughes..
Actually to me it sounds like no deal. Twins have a starting point, and can go elsewhere. They don’t HAVE to take the first offer.
I think Boston would rather hang onto Ellsbury over Buchholz.
If they included Buchholz they are getting a starter back to replace him so its easier to get by.
Moss and Lowrie for sure could be included in a deal, if Buchholz is in it, Lester probably wont be.
From Charley Waters:
“The Twins have had no contract talks with first baseman Justin Morneau since the end of the season. Morneau is eligible for salary arbitration this winter.”
BRILLIANT
It’s called priorities. Hunter had a 15 day window in which to try and work something out. Santana is next. They can’t determine a Morneau contract until they know if they’ll have Santana’s salary to consider.
He’s next on the list though. In fact if trade offers start getting serious they’ll probably talk to him while shopping Johan.
Travis, I think you must have read your Homer and you’re assuming we didn’t. We’re not bringing the horse into the city. Actually, Lester is good and I’ve read good things about Lowrie. As for the rest . . .
If they included Buchholz they are getting a starter back to replace him so its easier to get by.
Except the Twins don’t need pitching, so it’d be hard to get approval the other way on that deal.
the sox are talking to the rangers about crisp and they want 3 prospects for him?
That right there is the problem..
the sox think way to highly of crisp..
if crisp is worth 3 prospects, and ellsbury wont be traded for a guy like johan..
there is something terribly wrong with that! haha
it makes no sense!
So even if the Twins didnt need them all, its nice to have the depth. Who knows what can happen down the road, especially with an ace coming back from major surgery.
What do the Twins have tons of unproven young pitchers and what do the Twins lack HITTERS. So why in Gods name do half of you guys want us to go after more young unproven pitchers. Most team are going to want to keep their top pitching prospects (just like the Twins) but will be willing to part with some of their top hitters and even some of their Major league hitters to get a #1 starter. So I ask wouldn’t it be in the best interest of the Twins to be asking for hitters rather than pitchers?
Breaking news….check the new post.
The Sox could probably be enticed into including Ryan Kalsih, though at 19, hes not projected to be ML ready for a couple more years, he rabnks as Bostons #8 prospect and could play CF or RF. He compares to Nick Markakis.
so if the twins dont need pitching why are they telling NY any deal has to include Hughes, Chamberlain or Kennedy and telling Boston any deal has to include Buchholz or Lester?
Well, David, you’re not wrong in your assessment of what the Twins need, but the pitching they have (Liriano, Garza, Baker, Slowey, Bonser, Blackburn, Duensing) is good and young but, collectively, I don’t think they’ve made 75 starts at the big league level. And what if Liriano can’t come back? I think getting a pitcher or two in return is not a bad idea if for no other reason than to provide additional chips in trades for hitters.
Coco might only be 28, but Ellsbury just turned 24. I don’t care if we would “only” get Buchholz and Ellsbury. That’s a better deal than grouping together 5 other prospects, even if they are top tier. If it wasn’t a better deal, the Bosox would be saying those 5 guys are untouchable, but here, take Ellsbury and Buchholz. Instead of vice versa.
My opinion is starting to be swayed that the Yankees can offer us the best package. It all starts with Hughes. Hughes, Cabrera, and Jackson. Though I’d rather have Tabata than Jackson.
Boston wont include both Ellsbury and Buchholz in a deal, and its unlikely they would include Ellsbury at all.
With all of the money being saved on contracts and the revenue that will be coming to us eventually through the ball park and all the big salaries being dropped why in the heck aren’t we picking up offense with all the money we are saving. Where is all this money being spent. I would ike us to go after lets say a cabrera or for pitching Kazmir or Harden. What in the heck are we going to do with the money we are saving. I don’t want a few guys from a loser like the devil Rays. I want to lose an all star and gain and all star. Co Co Crisp for gods sake. Another loser for us to pick up.
this is good,
I think the Twins should have resigned Hunter and Santana. That way they could repeat what they did last year and then go on a 10 year rebuilding program while waiting for those deals to expire. The twins clearly don’t know how to operate in a small market because every single year they are one of the worst teams in sports and they always trade good players for bad players. They need to realize that the fans know better and just run a poll in the paper to help them decide what to do. Pretty soon they will have a nice, new little park and why fill it with a team of good prospects when you can have two or three of the highest paid players in the game to go with 23 minimum salary guys? When will mamagement learn that you just have to pay whatever it takes to keep the popular guys while dealing with reality later?
The reason we did not get anything for Hunter not even a drunken bumm is because our owner did not want anything decent in return that might take a penny from the stingy one
I must be the only one that actually watched Cuddyer play last year. I love you La Velle but your assertion that the twins should make the same mistake with MC is way off. He plays a power position and he didn’t provide the power. And that was no matter who was protecting him. Now with Hunter gone, he is going to be terrible offensively. I think getting D Young would be good but they are giving up a lot in Garza and Bartlett. They better get some proven arms for Santana and Nathan! We got duped again by the Pohlads.. Always building the house never completing it!
REBUILD=CHEAP
sox fan…nobody thinks crisp is equilavent to ellsbury. (though i’d take him over the short-term anyway over melky cabrera).
sox fans are very reluctant to give up BOTH buchholz and ellsbury. buchholz was unhittable when he came up and ellsbury was on fire all year and turned the playoffs around. neither are really “prospects”; they are both slated to be starters next year.
nobody here thinks lester/crisp is enough (except when we see those kennedy/melky rumors). i assume the sox would offer buchholz/crisp/lowrie or ellsbury/lester/lowrie.
lowrie was minor league ss of the year, major lwague ready, can play 2nd or 3rd.
i’d hate to see him go…
if the yankees top that more power to them.
COCO CRISP! They have got to frickin kidding!!!!!!!!!
Why do I always feel like Twins fans try so hard and support all there players and then the Pohlad’s lowball us as well as there players. Then the players we tune in nightly to watch get traded for players we have never heard of or prospects we must wait 4 years to develop then when they do develop we trade them again and get more prospects and the vicious cycle continues. While we are shipping our players off then other teams are getting World series rings with the players we ship off. Why don’t we just keep the good players and pay them.
jc romero got a ring for gosh sake.
Karflookey nailed it. The offer is (or should be) either Ellsbury, Lester and Moss or maybe Lowrie; or Buchholz, Crisp and Lowrie/Moss. Sox will likely give up either Buchholz or Ellsbury in a Santana deal, but not both, and they shouldn’t from their point of view.
Moss is a corner OF, maybe a useful 4th for most teams. Lowrie is more of a prospect, but not enough range for SS, probably either 2B - where he’s blocked by Pedroia - or possibly 3rd.
I don’t know exactly what the Twins need, but if it’s not pitching, I’d go for the Ellsbury/Lester package. Ellsbury has brilliant speed and baseball intelligence, and was a very disruptive factor once he got into the lineup. Lester is a gutsy kid, lots to admire, but struggles with command from time to time, probably at best a 2-3 starter.
I wonder what Santana’s reaction to all of this is? My understanding is that he’s agreed in principle to negotiate a longer term deal with a prospective bidder. But what if Minn stonewalls with an impossibly high price? If you’re Santana, aren’t you genuinely concerned about going into the next season under the old contract, with the risk of injury in circumstances where you’re not protected? If so, what do you do about it - sit-down strike?
backwards k says:
“Yeah following Hunter & Puckett is like following Rice, Yaz And Williams in Boston, great things will be expected.”
Are you kidding? This was the funniest comment I’ve ever heard.
Crisp was Ellsbury a few years back….you guys are in love with 100 mlb at bats….craziness abounds. Crisp and Lester is fair for a year rental…anything above that is steal for the Twins.
Lets be fair and both be happy. 
The sox will throw in a draft pick.
I don’t think Twins are in a position to bargan here. Remember, Santana can dictate where he goes. Right now it’s Yankees only. So the choice is to take Hughes/Melky or keep Santana (@$10+M) and lose him for draft picks next year (while suffering through another non-playoff season).
The team with Santana is not going to over take the Indians, Tigers or even the White Sox in 08. Twins have no chance at WC since it will either be between Sox/Yanks.
The Red Sox are not giving up Ellsbury,period. He should have been World Series MVP. He had 9 steals in 9 attempts in 100 at bats, he was Red Sox minor league defensive player of the year and baserunner of the year two years in a row. They will have him in Centerfield leading off for 10 years. Lester,Crisp,Lowrie, and Bowden.
Okay folks this is a smart and knowledge baseball fan (yes a sox fan too), let me clarify something right now so you can stop writing A) Jacoby, Clay and Youk arent going anywhere so keep dreaming twin fans B) Reyes, Wright and Joba arent going to be Twins either so once again keep dreaming C)draft picks CANT be traded D) Lowie is NOT major league ready (unless he was on the royals) E) my guess is santana wont get traded anytime soon i think cabbera from the marlins will get traded before so that your GM can allow LA (both) to get into the bidding F)Ian Kennedy is OVER RATED! I’ve seen him pitch many times G) Santana will be a yankee just got that gut feeling Cashman will do what it takes
[…] Minneapolis Star Tribune - Ortiz success in Boston has everything to do about him being in the middle of a great line up, staying healthy,and maturing as a hitter.Would he have been a better option for the Twins at DH.Absolutely.But he wouldn t have put up the numbers he … - Read More, Click Here… […]
[…] Still, the centerpiece of the rest of this offseason is Johan Santana. Here’s the latest Santana-to-Boston rumor I’ve seen: Got further confirmation today that the Twins want Clay Buchholz, Jacoby Ellsbury and prospects for Johan Santana, but Boston is reluctant to give them up. […]
Buckholtz is the main feature of the BoSox and is going to be in any BoSox deal. I don’t think Jacoby will be going anywhere though, he will be a RedSox for 10-15 years. Reyes is getting more and more involved in talk because Minaya needs an ace to do anything. Johan in the NL puts the Mets as favorites again, even without Reyes. The Yankees have thew best deal at the moment though, untill Minaya gives a final clear cut answer on Reyes. I Like Hughes, Cabrera and Jackson, Hughes steps in and starts right away, Cabrera fills our CF spot for now untill Jackson is ready to take it over, if Cabrera has not proven to be better than average. If Ellsbury somehow gets in talks with Buckholtz, done deal right there I say. Don’t get Youkilis, we don’t need him. we can fill infield spots with a Nathan trade.
And another thing, it does not matter that teams no we have to get rid of Johan to keep prices low, they have to battle other teams, thats why the price will get high. If it was us and one team, yeah we would get basically shit for him, but since there are many teams after him, they are going to bid the price way up, despite the fact that we “have” to get rid of him by March.
