Big week ahead..
Posted on January 28th, 2008 – 9:18 AMBy La Velle
After speaking with officials over the weekend at TwinsFest, it looks like the Twins want to get a Johan Santana trade done this week or begin preparing for his arrival at spring training.
We really won’t know if the Twins waited too long to trade Santana until a deal is made. For now, they insist that that they remain in contact with the Red Sox, Mets and Yankees and no team has pulled out.
I asked if there was a chance that a three-way deal involving a mystery team was possible. I was told that was unlikely.
I asked if the Twins have discussed adding a player to any deal to help move things along. I was told no.
I asked about reports that Jon Lester has been pulled from the Red Sox offer. I was told it’s not true.
If the Twins don’t get an offer they like and bring Santana to camp, they’ll look at signing a free agent center fielder like Kenny Lofton or Corey Patterson. But they also would discuss just opening up the spot to competition between prospects Denard Span and Jason Pridie.
I know many of you have wondered if the signings of Justin Morneau and Michael Cuddyer mean that the Twins will also try to lock up Santana. That remains highly unlikely as all indications are that Santana is seeking a maximum payday.
I can’t wait for this to end we can find out what was true and what was just posturing. The funny thing is that we’re headed for the 10-year anniversary of the Chuck Knoblauch trade to the Yankees (Feb. 6) and that could be marked by another Twins trade to New York team. I still rank the Mets as the favorite with the Yankees second but the Twins have every right to demand that Fernando Martinez be included in the deal.
The Mets are trying to get one of the best pitchers in baseball for prospects. Excuse me while I put on my Allen Iverson hat. Prospects? Prospects? We’re talking about prospects, man. Not proven major league talent, prospects.
579 Responses to "Big week ahead.."
Why wont the Twins add a player to make things start happening? That is stupid. Maybe if we add a player to trades it will maybe show teams that we are willng to negotiate. Maybe if the Twins were proactive and added Pirdie and Blackburn we would get Lester/Ellsbury/Masterson/Lowrie from the Red Sox? I wish the Twins would be somewhat flexible to get a good package.
LEN III
I agree completely with the F-Mart take. He is also a prospect but he is their best prospect. I also agree that it looks like Johan is heading to the Mets. Why are the Twins not willing to include another player to increase the return?
The one thing that hurts the Twins when dealing with the Mets is that both the Sox and Yankees would be okay with that. They are/were more worried about the other team getting Santana then actually obtaining him themselves. I would be shocked if he doesn’t go to the Mets and I will be very disappointed if the Twins don’t get Martinez back in this trade.
La Velle
How is Liriano? Espn had a report and Liriano says he is 100%.
Do you think he will start the season in the Twins Rotation??
Or will we put him in AAA to get back the feel for the game?
My guess is AAA. but just wanted your thoughts
i wonder what the turnover is of highly ranked prospects from yr to yr? a few yrs ago span was one of our top prospects and i recently saw he was out of the top 20. a lot of flaws get exposed as they go up classes and the ml curve ball has killed a lot of dreams and the fastball that got out aaa’r gets hit over the fence in the ml’s.
Let’s see, you’re not getting enough for Santana so you want to give up MORE??! Nice negotiating. I’d love to play poker with you guys sometime.
BH says:
January 28th, 2008 at 9:33 am
Let’s see, you’re not getting enough for Santana so you want to give up MORE??! Nice negotiating. I’d love to play poker with you guys sometime.
We have been on the same hand since Dec.
I would hate to play Poker against us
bh i think if you want a player added who is maybe a b or b+ rated player it would it would be ok to add a player maybe rated as a c or c+ to get him.
With the signing of Cuddy and Morneau, I can see these other teams expecting the Twins needing to dump salary so they won’t up their deals and expect the Twins to cave in for a cheap deal.
You don’t offer more if you aren’t getting enough. The Twins are playing it right. Hold tight, wait for someone to crack and at the end they will at a minimum get one more throw-in that they can steal that could make all the difference. You do not give up more when you are already not getting enough.
BH
When is a guy like Denard Span ever going to play with this team? He might get some time this season but he is definitely not the answer at CF. If the Twins get Martinez to go along with Cuddyer, Young, Kubel, Monroe, and Pirdie don’t you think Span could be tradeable?
I agree with gobble that if you could get another good prospect for a player that will never get to see the field for the Twins I would do it.
I think the reason the Twins are not adding a player is that they know what they have with their own prospects… so to add a known commodity (say Swarzak) to get a package with unknowns- from the Twins prospective (say Humber or Mulvey) makes little sense.
It would make more sense to just ask for one less prospect in a deal and keep what you already have. Leaving Marquez, Masterson, or Humber off a deal would have the same impact as sending Blackburn or Swarzak in a deal…
OK if you add Span you really aren’t giving up a thing but don’t you think the other teams know he’s a dog? To think that adding a bad player is going to make the other teams give up a good player makes no sense.
john the less mo-lester
BH
How long do you hold a dead hand for? Do you think they should go into the season with Johan? I think that the deal needs to happen this week and if the Twins aren’t getting what they want they should at least look at the possibility of adding another player to increase the offer. I’m not saying give up Johan and Nathan for the package you are asking for Nathan but maybe one of the current Twins prospects that they don’t like that much could be dealt.
*Santana not Nathan
actually adding a prospect could help. For example, the Yankees need a catcher after Posada is done (in about 4 years). Wilson Ramos will be ready by then. It could be an incentive for them to add a Jackson or a kennedy to their deals
See the 2007 Texas/Boston Eric Gagne deal for reasons why the Twins should wait for the deadline to trade Nathan.
Do not package them together, as they would get much less of a haul than in seperate deals.
The Mets prospects are garbage. if the Twins wanted the Mets lame prospects this deal would be done.
They want the Yank prospects.
TRADE SANTANA TO THE YANKS AND INSTEAD OF GIVING SANTANA A CONTRACT PICK UP 2 DECENT STARTERS WITH THE 20 MILL. HOPEFULLY BETTER STARTERS THEN SILVA. WHO IS DUMB ENOUGH TO GIVE SILVA 12 MILL PER SEASON ANYWAY SEATTLE
Ryan
I was not saying that the two players should be packaged. I was pointing out that the Twins can add another player to the deal that isn’t going to contribute to the Twins anyway. Or maybe a player that they don’t feel is developing.
I agree that Nathan should be dealt during the season. Buster Olney had a great point when he said, Starting Pitchers value is highest during the winter, while Closers values are highest during the Summer. Every GM think they have a decent bullpen and Closer right now, but when the season is 3 months old and their Closer has blown 7 saves that is when they get desperate for a player like Nathan.
BBFan81 — The Yankees already have some nice catching prospects that will be ready by the time Jorge’s contract expires like Cervelli, Montero, Romine, Weems. Plus there will be FA options as well. There is no need to add valuable prospects like Jackson or Kennedy just to get another catching prospect that may be ready in 4 years.
Except Ramos is way better than those four you mentioned. Montero is better offensively but no one believes he’ll stay behind the plate.
hey guys
would you still take the current Mets package if they replaced Gomez with Martinez (along with the young arms), or do you feel like the Twins need both Martinez AND Gomez?
BB, I get that point… but that assumes that the Yankees are going to suddenly operate their organization differently than they have in the past.
Generally speaking, the Yankees use their farm system to produce prospects which can be dealt for ML ready players… unless their prospect is a stud prospect (Cano, Joba, Jeter) they usually have little chance of making it to the ML level wearing pinstripes. Jackson and Tabata fit the Cano/Jeter mold, Wilson Ramos does not… he fits the Jeff Marquez mold- a guy that could make it for another team, but will never make it the the big leagues as a Yankee.
I wonder why LaVelle thinks that the red sox package is third and the Yankee second. Other than Hughes who else is good?Melky or Marquez?
Dan NY
Right now I would lean towards taking a F-Mart/Guerra/Humber/Pelfrey deal. I don’t think the Twins necessarily need both OF’s to be part of the deal.
Jama dont you want Heilman instead of Humber. If it is F-Mart/Guerra/Pelfry/Heilman i would consider it, add Church or Gomez done deal
Dan
MArtinez, Guerra, Pelfrey, Church and i would accept the deal
Gomez, Guerra, Pelfrey, Humber, Church or
Gomez, Guerra, Pelfrey, Church, Pellot
if martinez is in the deal i think the twins get 4 players back.
if its gomez then its a 5-1 trade..
thats just my opinion?!?! probably wrong, always am!
Christina
because Hughes is a stud, WAAAAAAAAAY better than any other prospect being offered
I doubt Sabathia gets and Extension with the indians..
So, it could turn out that the Sox and Yanks have time to see how their prospects turn out.
And we can have a Sabathia blockbuster in a couple years..
Wouldn’t it suck if tabata/jackson or some of the guys the twins wanted head to cleveland?!
i know, way to far ahead to look. but that would not be fun
Hughes = Stud
If Martinez & Guerra meet expectations and potential..
Mets offer easily wins out..
Thats a Big IF though
any deal that lets us keep one of our top propects is ideal.
Meaning, u let the Mets hang onto one of Guerra, FMart, Gomez or Mulvey (preferably one of the first 3) and I would imagine that would get it done, as long as Heilman is not part of the deal. Once Heilman’s name gets thrown into the deal, its a totally different story.
MH
Sabathia is going to be a Free Agent next winter so those teams aren’t going to have to give up anything for him other than around $120 million.
Tyler
I would love to get Heilman over Humber but I don’t think that is going to happen.
And why is everyone so in love with Church? I would rather get another pitching prospect since their value is always higher than a positional player.
Why not try to do a deal with the Yanks for Hughes and Kennedy + a B-level prospect, then sign Corey Patterson. I dont understand why they are insisting on Melky Cabrera. Honestly the difference between Melky and Patterson isn’t huge, plus then you have a good young pitching staff for a few years with Liriano, Hughes, Kennedy, and Baker.
I don’t think the twins have a realistic shot at competing for the playoffs this year with no johan, I think it would be in their best interest to try to get less proven talent that they could control for a longer period of time. It would be nice to have guys in the majors this year, but I think the team will be better served getting some young high ceiling guys like martinez and guerra than one guy like hughes or lester. That said, I’d rather see them try to get guys from the mets like juan lagarres and francisco pena than guys like mulvey and humber.
BBfan81,
The Yanks already have 2 of the top 10 catching prospects (according to projectprospect)
http://www.projectprospect.com/top-10-catching-prospects/
This does not include Austine Romine who may be the best of the bunch. I do not know much about Wilson Ramos except that he was playing winter ball at a level equivalent to Rookie Ball. He is very far from the Majors…
cs
The Yankees don’t even want to trade Hughes why would they all the sudden decide to trade Hughes and Kennedy? It is a give and take and the Twins are trying to get as much value as possible that they other team will give up.
The Yankees won’t trade Hughes AND Kennedy.
CS
The Yankees WILL NOT give us Kennedy with Hughes unless we give them liriano or something so that is enough thought on that.
Also I think asking for Heilman IS NOT to much. Gomez/Guerra/Heilman/Pelfry/Church OR
Martinez/Guerra/Pelfry/Heilman is a done deal for me. Those three pitchers are essential for a done deal.
seems i was late to the punch on that Kenndey comment… Im a slow typer
If santana was still 2 or three years from free agency I could see martinez/pelfrey/guerra/heilman, but I don’t think the twins will get that now. I can’t really see why they’d want heilman anyway, not much more upside there and he’s already into arbitration.
Some days I want Gomez more than Martinez. I think if the Twins lock up Young and Cuddyer in the corners, that would be good enough. So maybe taking a risk on the very fast, good defensive CF in Gomez would be worth the risk. If Gomez can improve his hitting he will be better than Ellsbury. He is already a faster and better defensively. Take the risk and demand this package, which i already stated, but wish to reinforce.
Gomez/Guerra/Heilman/Pelfry/Church.
take hughes because buckholz was never offered and lester is now goooooone. plus hughes is going to be great and then take the horrible but still better then coco cf and a prospect. maybe even add in nathan and go for kennedy as well then take the 20 mill and spend on another decent starter or 2 and please don’t get another ponson or silva
Dan (NY)
Would you do the Fmart, Church, Guerra, and Pelfry trade for Santana????
I’m with BH. I’d love to play poker with ya’ll.
Can’t get what you want for Santana? Let’s add prospects!!
Here’s a better idea: Stick to your guns, get what you want for Santana, or start the season with him atop the rotation.
Some days I want Gomez more than Martinez. I think if the Twins lock up Young and Cuddyer in the corners, that would be good enough. So maybe taking a risk on the very fast, good defensive CF in Gomez would be worth the risk. If Gomez can improve his hitting he will be better than Ellsbury. He is already a faster and better defensively. Take the risk and demand this package, which i already stated, but wish to reinforce.
Gomez/Guerra/Heilman/Pelfry/Church..
Dan,
to answer your earlier question… do the Twins need Gomez AND Martinez?
No, I think one would be fine with just one of them. However, I can see why they want both. The Twins have a LOT of B/C-ish level pitching prospects, including a bunch of young ML ready arms that will already be competing for spots… guys like Mulvey or Humber are less of a premium in our system. We have more of a need for position players (although we have have already imensely improved our organizational outfield depth over the past year). Besides, it makes sense that the Twins want Martinez as he could be a stud, but he is so young that he will not provide the help we are looking for in the 08-10 seasons… Gomez could be ready to play for sure by the 09 season. Gomez fills short term needs, but still is less of a sure thing in the long run. Martinez is more of a talent, but dosent fit short term needs.
I see a deal for only one of them… hopefully Martinez.
sorry for the repeat, i thought it did not go through the first time.
Jimmy Bee: Which “decent starter or two” would you recommend the Twins sign with that $20M?
Please be specific.
All of baseball is iffy,that’s what make it a great game.Blup in the paper this morning about Rick Stully.If he wasn’t from CHI and such a good friend of TK,who knows when Kirby would have been called up.Knowing TK dislike of young players,87 and 91 would not have happened.
Gomez has a long way to go to be better than Ellsbury… it could happen, but I wont hold my breath…
Gomez has some tools, but until he gets his OBP to near .350… he will be a suspect leadoff hitter…
Ryan
I agree he has a long way to go, but i think we are set in the corners, dont you? why not get gomez,church,two promising you pitchers, and a reliable veteran in Heilman.
I think Bill Smith should give Hank a deadline… and tell every press outlet in the world that he has.
how bout Bedard. Dollar short and a day to late for the better pitchers.
Freddy Garcia (32) - Type B
Mike Maroth (30)
Jaret Wright (32)
bedard
see if Kazmir is available
Speaking as a Mets fan, an offer of F-Mart, Churh, Pelfrey, and Guerra is more than enough in comparison to the Yanks and Sox. Watching Pelfrey, you can see he has the stuff to be a top line starter. Needs a little more mentally. Throws hard and induces grounders. Think Brandon Webb type.
Church is a solid player and the ceiling for Martinez and Guerra is high. From a Twins perspective I’d rather have more prospects with high ceilings than that one “stud” prospect (Hughes). If Hughes doesn’t live up to the hype or gets injured, what did you get? At least with the Mets offer, the Twins would have several opportunities at catching a top guy. From what I hear, Martinez may be the best that anyone has offered, including Hughes, Kennedy, Cabrera, Lester, or Ellsbury.
How about rich harden
Tyler,
I agree that we are set in the corner spots…
But Martinez probably wont be ready until 2012 (he is 18, he would be 22 then)… it is hard to see Cuddy staying after this extention is out… so if Martinez is good enough to play, there will be a spot for him.
You could take the opposite stance, our best prospects are centerfielders (Pirdie, Revere, Martin, Benson, Roberts), so it might make sense to bring in a stopgap CF for now and have Martinez and Revere mature in our system to ensure we will have studs to fill in when this crop becomes too expensive…
It really is amazing though how easy the RedSox could pull of a trade, the Mets could give nearly all the farm, and then the RedSox could call Smith and say Lester/Ellsbury/one prospect and it would be a done deal. I dont think the Red Sox would miss lester when their rotation would be:
Beckett
Santana
Dice-K
Buccholz
Schilling
If i were the Red Sox i would be wuick to give up Lester and slow to give up Ellsbury, their rotation would be histortical, but their hitters would be getting too old.
Lou, I agree that your mets proposal would actually be the best one offered…
Ryan
I see your point but 2011/2012 is too long for me to wait
*QUICK to give up Lester
Does anyone know if Corey Patterson is a type B FA? For some reason I think he is… if so, I do not see him as an option the Twins would take…
quantity or quality which is important to you. take the quality and then take what you would give Santana and then pick up 2 decent pitchers for that. just do the smart thing get kennedy and hughes
Tyler, me too, lol… which is why I would make a horrible GM.
ok guys…. if we dont want martinez then you take melkey and hughes…. we dont know if guerra is going to be good and we dont know if gomez is going to learn how to hit a ball… melkey is mlb proven and hughes is close to proven..
hughes>guerra (for now, only cause hughes is closer and more proven….)
melkey>gomez (for now…. if gomez learns how to hit a ball gomez he may be better..)
martinez about= melkey>gomez (martinez has been very injury prone and so we dont know if he will make it to the majors… melkey is already in the majors and has a lot of pop which will probably get better cause hes only 22… and gomez still has to learn how to bat…
marquez>humber,or mulvey
Ryan
Bill Smith loves Patterson. I heard him interviewed and he stated that if he was to sign a free agent CF patterson would be his first choice over Lofton and friends.
Gomez is close to as good as ellsbury right now. He’s much faster, and better defensively as well as being sveral years younger. With his size, it’s not unrealistic to expect him to add some power either. I love the people knocking the mets lame package. I’d take gomez, martinez, or guerra over anyone else being talked about with the exception of hughes. Remember, martinez and guerra would have been seniors in high school last year in the us, and gomez turns 22 this year. Matinez has already been in AA for a whole season, while guerra pitched in the futures game this year. If the twins are serious about rebuilding, those are the three they should be insisting on, forget humber, heilman, or mulvey.
I think BS needs to get FMart, Guerra, AND Gomez for this to work. I don’t really care who the 4th prospect is. If we don’t get those 3 guys, the Mets offer is the worst on the table. It shouldn’t even be considered. This is why I think the Yanks and the Sox have cooled towards the deal. We keep being told that there’s still dialogue with all three teams, but the fact that the Mets are the favorites is proof enough to me that there might not be.
Martinez has had 1 trip to the DL in two minor league seasons…how is that injury prone?
Kind of off topic but…..
Who do you guys think is going to be the back up infielders?
Gardy said on Hartman’s show that he sees the starting infield as of right now being…
1B-Morneau
2B-Harris
SS-Everett
3B-Lamb
One back up will be Punto. He can cover every spot except 1B. After that it’s up in the air. I don’t think they want to keep Buscher and Casilla on the big club as back ups. The Twins have always been against that.
For those folks thinking, “Adding a player w/Santana is stupid.”, how do teams come up with multi-player deals? Why wouldn’t the Twins trade Garza for D.Young? Or Garza & Morlan for Young? Both sides have needs and looking at it from the other side gives a different perspective. If we package Santana + 1 then obviously we get more in return….just differently packaged.
Jimmy
You still haven’t named a starting pitcher or 2 that the Twins could give their $20 million to without giving up prospects. The Twins don’t have the players to get Bedard and I don’t see them going after Harden with his injury risk.
Can you name 2 “decent” pitchers that could be had for $20 million right now?
Are you crazy? The red sox are still the strong favorite here in my opinion over both new york teams. they have by far the best offers. yes hughes is better than Lester, but masterson is a part time MLB player this year, and dont forget the ellsbury package which would solidify a devestating lineup for them, whereas neither the mets or yankees are offering and MLB ready leadoff center feilder to replace torii hunter. Cabrera is the third worst starting center fielder statistically (offensive and defensive combined) in the american league. the twins really are not interested in him.
or crisp if they take lester package who defensively dominates cabrera and if he has a comeback year to his old days we are talkin .280-.290 hitter with 30-40sb 50-70 rbi’s 70-90 runs scored and the best defensive center feilder in the american league maybe shy of torii himself.
jama,
if loshe and fogg count… lol there are no good ones anymore… (then again there never was…) mine as well save that 20 mil and spend it next year getting c.c sabathia 
steve
to say ellsbury is going to solidify a devistating lineup for the twins is kinda far fetched.. you are putting alot of faith in a guy that has not played a full season.. prospects come up in sept and perform well because pitchers do not know them. Once a scouting report comes out then we will see how good ellsbury is.
Cabrera is more then adequate to play CF for the twins. Not saying he is the guy the twins should want. but I am not caught up in the ellsbury “hype”
lets see how he does after a full season.
LaVelle…you asked three really goods questions. Keep asking.
1) Has Hughes been pulled from Yanks offer?
2) Has Santana given the Twins a deadline for a trade to be completed?
3) Has any team, other than the Bosox, Mets & Yanks, contacted the Twins recently?
and whoever said that gomez and ellsbury are the same should cut their fingers off so they cant type such garbage. ellsbury is the best up and coming outfielder in baseball. gomez is NOT faster, a worse fielder and doesnt have MLB+World series experience. Ellsbury successfully filled in for manny ramirez. i love the mets, but if they get santana for gomez/martinez, they are being given a gift.
ellsbury has also put on close to 15 pounds of muscle and has power potential that cabrera does not have. how can you not be on the train. if you dont believe in ellsbury then you best question the hell outta joba and hughes because they both have under 100 MLB inning. joba has like 24-26 i dont remember offhand.
first of all…. im not believing in ellsbury untill he has more then 30 games played lol.. second.. the only good parts on the boston side is lowrie and masterson.. not lester not ellsbury.. if they did something like this id consider them……
bulcholtz ellsbury masterson bowden..
otherwise sorry.. the yankees and mets have much MUCH better offers……
sorry boston fans on this blog but thats the truth…
steve,
I stopped reading your post when you said Gomez is NOT faster than Ellsbury.
The comparison favors Ellsbury in many categories, but not speed.
i would hope ellsbury is better then gomez/cabrera. he is older
steve
The problem with trading for Ellsbury is that you are trading for him at his peak value. I agree with others that you are over blowing how good he is going to be. I don’t think he will ever be a perenial All Star. And to say that he is the “best up and coming outfielder in all of baseball” is a little ridiculous. There are at least 2 other players that teams would rather have that I can think of off the top of my head. Adam Jones and Jay Bruce are far more wanted than Ellsbury.
Ok, Man, Gomez/Guerra/Heilman/Pelfrey/Church is ridiculous, Twins will NEVER get that for a player with no contract past 2008 and who no other team is particularly interested…I think Heilman would be an ideal player for the Twins, because he is just eligible for arb. this off-season for the first time, and he has been one of the most effective relievers in the NL the last few years…he is also versatile; he cango into the rotation, be a set-up guy, or take over for Nathan eventually…I think a realistic package at this point is Santana to the Mets for Martinez, Guerra, Mulvey, and Humber…At this point, if the Twins can get a package with both F-Mart and Guerra, they should take it, anything more (like Mulvey and Humber) would just be extra for the Twins
Sane…you took the words out of my mouth. You could make the argument that ellsbury was faster and more effective in october when everybody was watching, but that is hardly gomez fault.
Tyler, im a mets fan that wants Johan but seriously dude if you think youre getting:
“Gomez/Guerra/Heilman/Pelfry/Church”
YOU ARE CRAZY
One guy you Twin fans should want is Pelfrey. If you were talking about this deal a year ago, he would have been mentioned in the same class as Hughes. Pelfrey looked much better in September, in fact he threw a gem at the Braves when the Mets needed him to step up. Actually won 3 games in Sept.
One thing that surprises me is why the Twins aren’t asking for John Maine. He won 15 games last year with 180k’s and solid ERA and WHIP. Plus he’s a few years away from free agency. Still, if the Twins wind up with a combo of F-Mart, Gomez, Pelfrey, Guerra, Heilman, and/or Church, they will have done alright for themselves. What they would get are a couple of guys who could start this season (Gomez,Church,Pelfrey,Heilman) and a couple of top level prospects (Martinez, Guerra). Better than the Yanks current offer and better than what they would get mid-season.
I’m a Mets fan and there is no way I add F-mart. This isn’t a pitcher that is signed past the season. Any team that gets Santana will have to spend over 140 million for 5 or more years to make the trade worth while. Otherwise, there is no guarentee that he would stay with that team. So basically, you guys are asking for the best players/prospects on the Red Soxs, Yankees, or Mets for what may amount to a rental or a very expensive investment. If I was a GM, I would ask why give up so much if he doesn’t sign. I would want 84 hours to negotiate a new contract before making any trade.
In short, no F-mart for you! I’ll give you the guys the Mets have offered now, but no more.
LOL @ steve erlich
Ellsbury is 24 with 5 hr in 1200 minor league ab = calm down.
why not heilman?
how come he wont be in the deal?
no one knows what the current offer is
how can people say HEILMAN will not be included??
no one knows…
we are putting out OUR trade opinions and what we think
“YOU ARE CRAZY” that trade will never happen.
oh yeah.. how come boof/rincon were suppose to be in the Delmon young trade??
boof/bartlett/rincon for d-young/harris
turns out
graza/morlan/bartlett
for dyoung/harris/pridie
So, Tell me.
Is martinez/guerra/pelfrey/heilman/church out of the question?
ok, probably
but how do you know??
its Guerra/Humber/Mulvey and outfielder of your choice. Try to focus your research and attention on who you think is better for your team, Fmart or Gomez, because at this point were days away from giving you 1 of those 2. Lets try to be realistic here guys.
I will not debate if Gomez IS better then Ellsbury because Ellsbury is MLB ready but Gomez 1000% is faster and it’s not even that close, Jose Reyes says Gomez is faster then him. Thats the thing with Gomez, if he hits just 250 he will be a long term starter in the majors with his glove/speed/arm which are all A+.
lukebrayden
I would certainly do that deal, as I`m sure most met fans would do it.
Whoever is junder the misconception that Melky is more valuable than Gomez is sadly mistaken. Melky’s main assets are his arm, defense and speed…all of which Gomez is significantly better than him in.
guerra/martinez/pelfrey/church
done deal
otherwise
guerra/gomez/pelfrey/church/pellot
done deal
Lou W,
You are the first Mets fan on this blog who is rational.
Are you really a Mets fan?
Melky’s speed? he has below average speed for a guy with so little pop and has a THICK body for a CF, odds are Melky gets slower in the next few years. Melky has 2 pluses, great arm and can take a walk.
actually i take that back
martinez/guerra/pelfrey/mulvey/pellot
or
gomez/guerra/pelfrey/pellot/church
church has no value to the twins if we do not aquire gomez
the twins will be in the market to sign a CF cuz church will not play CF everyday
gomez will be opening day starter in CF, and we would want church because he can play a game or two out there if we need him to.
thus we would cut monroe if we acquire church/gomez
otherwise we take martinez and sign patterson
Another thing, if I’m running the Twins, in order to deal him to the Yanks or Red Sox, I’d want them to overpay moreso than the Mets. These two teams are in the AL, do you really want to be facing him 2-3 times a year? And potentially in the playoffs in a year or two? To me, I’d want him in the NL for the best offer there. Make the Yankees give you Hughes, Kennedy, and Cabrera or the Sox give you Bucholz/Lester, Ellsbury and prospects. Otherwise take the best 4-5 players the Mets offer. Of course I’m biased towards the Mets, but doesn’t it make some sense?
Jimmy Bee, we’re still waiting for you to name the “2 decent starters” the Twins should sign with that $20M.
I suspect we’ll still be waiting come next offseason.
Lou…
The Twins are not getting Gomez, Church, Pelfrey, Heilman, Martinez & Guerra.
The Yankees have not had an offer on the table since the winter meetings
The Mets cant stand to lose Maine even for Santana. If the Twins asked/need him in a deal then it just won’t happen. As much as I want Santana dealing a 15 win guy with an era under 4, top 15 in the NL in k’s who makes no money for the UPGRADE of Santana doesn’t make sense because your 5th starter is still an unknown like Humber or Mulvey… the idea is to have 5 good starters not simply just upgrade Maine to Santana. Furthermore, the way the Mets keep the payroll semi normal (Not Yankee/Sox level) is having players like Maine, Reyes, Wright being paid less then they are worth. As it is, I worry about our ability to keep Perez after the year so Imagine losing Maine for Santana and Perez walking…. duque is a FA….. so we would be looking at a rotation of Pedro, Santana and 3 unknowns in 09
I think that the Mets consider John Maine almost as untouchable. They have him under team control for the next few years at a reasonable price, plus he is getting better every year. To deal him in a package for Santana is illogicaly. They want to improve their starting staff, by replacing Maine with Johan, it wouldn’t be worth it (considering the money loss, prospects loss, and the fact that they may lose Oliver Perez, and El Duque to free agency)
LEN II…
You still never corrected yourself from one of your previous articles. It was not a report out of NY that brought up Ryan Church in a Mets deal.
That was Michael Silverman in the Boston Herald.
MH,
Gomez is faster than Jose Reyes. He’s been beating Reyes in footraces for years (they grew up near each other), and did it again last year in ST. Do you think Ellsbury can beat Reyes in a race?
Personally I am one of “those” people who will be furious if they give up Fernando and will be LIVID if they give up Gomez AND Fernando but dealing Maine for Santana would convince me Omar doesn’t know what he is doing.
I guess jama no one is dumb enough to let good pitching or hitting go without getting nothing in return. oh wait!! The twins do that all the time, so I guess we would have to give up something
Dan (NY),
Gomez couldn’t hit a slider by swinging a door.
Until he corrects that, Melky is a much better hitter. Gomez will never see a fastball strike.
If he corrects that, the sky is the limit.
USAFChief be back in a few off to a lunch meeting with a client
USAFChief bedard or harden
steve from norfolk
gomez is faster then reyes.. i alrady knew that
will gomez beat ellsbury in a race?
no, i dont think he can
MH,
Its possible the Mets will end up throwing in a 5th prospect to complete this deal. If you need an infielder then yeah, take Pellot.
Gomez/Humber/Mulvey/Guerra/Pellot
we may have a deal here boys!
i ALSO BELIEVE FREDDY GARCIA IS ALSO AVAILABLE
Joel, I’m not saying the Mets should give all of that up. I’m saying that a package of 4-5 of those guys should do it. My take is that if the Twins want a few guys to start next year then Church, Heilman, and Pelfrey could fill that need. Gomez too. So two or maybe 3 of those with Martinez and/or Guerra as prospects for the future. To me, the Mets should not give up more than two of the three OF’s (Church, Gomez, F-Mart).
Also, I wasn’t suggesting that the Mets should trade John Maine, I wouldn’t unless the other players involved were reduced substantially (ie. No Martinez or Pelfrey). I was just curious as to why the Twins haven’t been linked to asking for him. I would if I were them.
Captain,
Replace Humber, Mulvey and Pellot with
Pelfrey and Church.
Mets fan here. Yes, we are offering prospects, true. But at the same point, we have to then sign the guy at $25/m for 6 to 7 years. So we are giving up the farm and paying the guy HUGE $$$$$ for a guy’s numbers that were very below par in the second half of the year.
Lou the same reason we haven’t heard Chamberlain or Buccholtz mentioned…. clearly all 3 teams let it be known these players wouldn’t even be discussed. Otherwise why haven’t the Twins tried for Joba or Clay?
Captain Obvious
gomez/humber/mulvey/guerra/pellot?
no way.. i think it takes alot more then that..
gomez is a perhaps Stud Cf. he is our everyday starter
but now we get humber/mulvey .. we have a farm system full of #3 #4 starters. so i think pelfrey needs to be substituted.
Gomez/Pelfrey/Mulvey/Guerra/Pellot
i think could get it done
Sane,
you said youd rather have Melky Cabrera than Gomez. seriously?
You actually think ellsbury is faster than jose reyes??? You are starting to sound like the guys that broadcast for fox.
jimmy
I guess I need your definition of “decent”. Freddy Garcia does not fit that definition in my book. 2 Freddy Garcia’s does not equal Johan. There are no Starting Pitchers in Free Agency and there never was any starting pitching that were what the Twins were looking for this off season. You are going to have to live with what the Twins have now plus whatever they get in a Johan deal.
MH,
were getting closer
Freddy Garcia? Really? You want to spend $10M on Freddy Garcia?
Good luck with that.
I would be all in favor of getting Harden and/or Bedard. The sticking point there though, is the little factor of neither of them being free agents.
So good luck with that, as well.
Mets Fans
how is Jose Coronado, Luis Rivera?
emmanual garcia?
How about this
Gomez/Guerra/Murphy/Pelfrey/Pellot
??
Church, Humber, Guerra, Gomez or Martinez. I would also take Mulvey, Martinez and Guerra. Get it done!
Tyler, I agree with you: Boston could waltz in at the end and offer us both Ellsbury and Lester, along with Lowrie and Masterson, and get the deal done. I don’t see them doing it, thought. Santana is not a Cy Young pitcher in Fenway, and pitching is something they really don’t need.
The Yankees really don’t want to trade for Santana, they want to sign him as a free agent. The only reason Hank Steinbrenner is keeping the Yankees’ deal alive is so that he can tamper with our player via media reports under the guise of “negotiations”.
That leaves the Mets, who really are desperate for a staff ace. With Bedard going to Seattle, I think they have no choice but to sweeten the deal for Santana.
CaptainObvious
Gomez/Guerra/Murphy/Pelfrey/Pellot
murphy seems like a solid 3rd base prospect.. has decent numbers
matter a fact..
i think murphy will be involved in this trade somehow
Garcia, Colon, Lohse (whom I doubt you guys want back at 10 million per), Livan
MH, you’re naming all the wrong prospects. The low level guys you should be looking at are juan lagares, francisco pena, bobby parnell, jon niese, scott moviel, or nate vineyard (the last two would have to be players to be named later). If you’re looking to add guys to the package, get rid of mulvey and humber and try to grab a bunch of guys who are a long way off with huge upside and pray they pan out.
By the way, as a mets fan, those are the names I don’t want to see in the deal, just trying to pass on some helpful info.
Manny Garcia could be a MLB very solid 2b if things go well. Excellent speed…. grew up in Canada so he hasn’t played as much ball as some other guys. Still very young.
juan lagares
he anything to keep an eye on??
MH,
at least do we agree that Santana is gonna be a Met? cause thats all i really care about. id throw my left nut into the deal if we can get this guy. Any Phillies fans on here? beware…
Right, you should DEMAND a hitting prodigy when the Yankees REFUSE to give up Hughes and the SOX REFUSE to give up Lester AND Buchholz
SURE. We’ll give up 4 players AND Martinez for the RIGHTS to pay $150m over 6 years.
Name ONE time in history where a team made THAT deal and benefited.
If you were a big market team and had that kind of talent, and there was no real competition, you KNOW you would NOT advocate giving up Martinez. Don’t try to destroy our franchise because your owner is an old cheap bastard.
It’s not OUR fault.
Lagares is a 17 year old ss with a lot of reyes comparisons…he’s also faster than reyes. He struggled with A ball this year, but he was 16 at the start of the season.
Parnell is a guy im surprised hasn’t come up in deals. Vineyard and Moviel are 2-3-4 years away so if the Twins wanted a guy like that then it would most likely be in conjunction with Gomez then Martinez unless they wanted to wait a good while for their eggs to hatch so to speak.
We’re giving you a future center fielder, pitching depth and bullpen help for a guy that is bolting in a year and wants out.
The other teams are giving you Ian Kennedy and Melky Cabrera. You should be thankful the Mets aren’t laughing at you. They could just wait a year as you draft 2 under-slot bums as compensation. You guys blew it. You had Hughes…just end this already.
Must admit that I haven’t Twins blogged for quite a while, so this is probably way over, but am I crazy to think that the Twins could compete for the playoffs this year if they kept Johan? Obviously it all depends on if Liriano can come back, but maybe it’s worth it to keep Santana, make one more playoff (and Series) run, and only deal him later in the year if we’re out of it.
I would rather keep Santana and have a shot at the championship, and just lose him in free agency, then deal him now and be looking at a couple of years of rebuilding. (I have to admit that I consider last year an aberration–too much talent to play that badly again).
Mets, Yankees, Red Sox will not offer a seven-year deal to Santana - so no trade is possible.
Twins need to offer 5 years x $20M with 6th year option. Keep regular incentives for performance.
Enough said.
One thing you guys need to realize is the Mets have been ULTRA aggressive pushing guys. Lagares started the season at Low-A… as a 16 year old! As did Francisco Pena. Gomez was pushed, Fernando at 18 at at AA, you have to trust your scouts over numbers with some of the Mets young prospects because they are playing levels WAY over their age. A guy like Philips Orta might be a guy that would interest the Twins, Parnell, maybe Raul Reyes.
To all twins fans,
why arent you sounding off about your CHEAP owner who refuses to pay this guy?
Because it’s old, old, old news.
CaptainObvious says:
January 28th, 2008 at 12:14 pm
To all twins fans,
why arent you sounding off about your CHEAP owner who refuses to pay this guy?
Metsfans
thanks for the input on the farm system
i think the twins should look at getting a future SS, or a future 3B from you guys as well.
As a twins fan, i feel trading Johan is a rebuilding tool..
So why not rebuild with kids in the farm
martinez/guerra/pelfrey/lagares and one more prospect
jeff,
sorry, i dont frequent the startribune.com or wherever the hell i am rite now
I’m not sure exactly how cheap he is being in THIS case. Wilpon clearly is semi skittish on the deal, The Yankees (granted it also involves Hughes and the luxury tax) don’t seem ultra eager to give out a 7 year deal. I think if Santana asked for 4 years at more money (which is has no reason to do) then the Twins would have given it to him.
Because the Twins compete on low budget and the Mets choke on a big budget.
Why don’t you complain?
im just sayin, id be pissed
Half the people posting here didnot read laVelle report.
Johan has turned down $93 mil for 5 years. When he is traded will be a 72 hour window to sign him. If not, then returns to the Twins.
Thus, remain a Twin for 2008.
If a trade is made I would say the Met’s due to the prospects an Fmart will be the center of the deal as #1 prospect, plus pitchers and probably one prospect as a SS.
Sign Lofton and innings eater and Twins are set for 2008.
Win Twins!
You ARE PISSED.
I am not.
sane,
you seem so mad. how bout we do the trade you suggested, plus Minaya will broker a deal to bring Derek Anderson to your Vikings for a 1st & 3rd. then would you be happy?
CAPTAIN OBVIOUS HERE IS ONE.
POHLAD IS SO CHEAP HE DOESN’T BUY CLOTHES HE JUST SITS AROUND BUT NAKED AND SHOVES HIS MONEY UP HIS A_ _ AND WHEN HE NEEDS A 20 HE HAS SMITHERS PICK IT OUT WITH HIS TEETH
Sane…79 wins on a low budget doesn’t qualify as competing.
Not saying the mets were particularly good last year.
I’m happy already.
The Twins are being run efficiently.
Its the Met fans on this blog who are wetting their pants.
BS = BIG SWEATY
CaptainObvious
Yes, I believe Johan will be a Met
I prefer Johan in the NL, instead of the AL.. because if Sabathia becomes a FA.. who knows where he lands.
could you imagine santana/beckett/sabathia/bucholtz/dicek?
manny/schilling/probably coco off the books?
dang. probably will not happen. but what if??
martinez/guerra/lagares/mulvey/garcia
that sounds like a deal?
twins just take a load of prospects
Greg, the Mets don’t have a SS prospect even close to the major league level. They have Veloz, Tejada, Flores, and Lagares but all are VERY VERY far away
Can anyone else explain to me where Church would fit on this team? I still don’t understand why his name is being brought up. He is not a good CF option so where else would he play? Would he split AB’s with Kubel? I just don’t see why you would want to include him in this deal.
The Mets haven’t won their division since Moby Dick was a minnow.
Maybe the Braves have gotten bored with kicking yor a–.
i like that one J bee,
he did put smithers to work for those Morneau/Cuddy deals though. guess its not all bad.
Sane,
1st it was Melky over Gomez.
now ur taking run efficiently over winning. ur losin me here
Guys get back on topic of the trade/prospects… The Twins have won more recently then we have.
Do the mets have any promising Young 3b??
They have Murphy, but anyone other then him?
Sane, the Mets won the division in 2006
Sane,
have you eaten lunch yet? i get like that too when im hungry..
The signing of Morneau and Cuddy to long-term big buck contracts I think shows that the “cheap” card might be out the door. Their standing offer to JS is also not cheap - $20 mil/year/4 years. But JS wants 20 mil for 7 years. If some team is willing to pay him that much for that long, I think they’re stupid. BS and company are showing they are willing to do and pay what it reasonably takes to field a quality team, but they are not going to let one player break the bank for years to come.
The Mets actually do have a 3b prospect other then Murphy that I like a lot. Richie Lucas, a 5th rounder this past year. Nick Evans started his career at 3b but I doubt they would move him back
Also does anyone else think that the Twins vastly overpaid Cuddyer?
Kay,
sometimes when that hall of fame, one in a generation lefty comes along you gotta stretch a little.. no?
I think the Twins would be smart to offer one additional year… bite the bullet and add a 5 year extension to what he has making it a grand total of 6 years 113.5 million
Actually, I kind of thought they might have overpaid Morneau. Then again his contract might like a bargain in a few years if he regains his MVP form.
Metro,
The Twins won their division in 2006, 2004, 2003 and 2002.
But I agree with you.
I officially withdraw from the p-ssing contest.
I agree Metro. But 7 years, no CO, that’s too much of a stretch.
Sane,
the mets haven’t won their division since moby dick was a minnow?
They won it in 2006.
Idiot.
I’d rather see Johan a Met! Don’t care if it’s just prospects at this point just get it over with and make it so you don’t have to face him on the Yanks or the Sox
Parnell, Niese 2 guys im surprised haven’t figured more prominently in discussions (at least publicly)
Kay
They definetely did not over pay Morneau. He was a steal with that deal.
Also Gomez/Pelfry/Guerra/Heilman/Church is not too much to ask. Please.
Ski,
And the Braves won it in what years?
ANYWAY….. I think a package of Gomez/Humber/Mulvey/Guerra and Parnell or Niese would be pretty damn good for the Twins. They get their CF and 4 live arms, one of which could be an ACE (Guerra)
I’m entirely disappointed with a great deal of these opinions. Throw in a player? What sense does that make? Why would you put in a prospect to get a prospect back? That’s counter productive, especially when you’re listing off our best available prospects.
Yes, Santana has to get paid so it’s hard for teams to justify paying players and money to him. His worth still far exceeds what’s been offered by any club.
I think that the Yanks and BlowSox have trouble admitting that it’s not just that they want to keep inhouse pithing talent, but also that these teams have little to no depth when it comes to the rotation. They still fear injury to Beckett, Schilling, Petitte, etc and fall off from players like Mussina and Wakefield. They want to be able to plug in a Lester or a Kennedy when the end of the season is coming.
Don’t add anything to the trade. Expect what you expect and if you don’t get it, consider a 4 year deal with an option for a 5th and 6th years. Make those back-end years more incentive laden. Be creative!
Z
Since Johan is the big fish in this deal, I would guess the deal will break towards the Twins at the end. Much like the Young deal broke towards the Rays (Morlan instead of Rincon), and the Teixiera deal broke towards the Rangers (addition of another prospect) towards the end. Generally speaking the team that is dealing the big piece ends up with a slightly sweeter deal at the end.
Mets Fans….please don’t worry about the money end of the Santana deal.
1) Mets will obviously be able to sign Santana to a new contract BEFORE the trade would be consummated.
2) Would you rather pay Santana $20+mil a year or waste $3.6mil on Schoeneweis? Or $5.0mil on the 41yr old Hernandez?
I guess moby dick was a minnow 1.5 years ago. I also think sane left the “in” prefix out of his name.
Sane, you make a stupid statement (repeatedly), get called out for it by several posters, and justify it by asking how many times the braves have won their division? Why not just try getting your facts straight so that nobody calls you out for it.
@ Joel
Santana will not be traded until the team that he goes to agrees on a long term deal, meaning that he will not bolt in a year and sign elsewhere. This is what is holding up the deal more than anything, agreeing on prospects with the realization that they also have to lock up Santana.
5 million for hernandez is a pretty good deal. He was the mets most consistant pitcher when he was healthy last year, and 5 million for that on a one year deal should be justifiable for any team in the majors.
either way, this deal should be done already. Bill Smith needs to realize the yankee ship has sailed and the sox were never that serious. Its time to call Omar and hash this thing out, much to the dismay of startribune.com and the record # of hits theyve been receiving. WEVE TURNED YOUR SAMLL MARKET NEWSPAPER INTO A MEDIA GIANT!!
If the Twins wanted to get max value back for Santana they should’ve traded him last year when teams could still justify giving a large package for getting a year or two of below market salary from him. Especially, considering his less than stellar finish to the season.
The Twins might have done better in a trade this year if Santana wasn’t quite as good and could be had for under $20M/yr.
Captain Obvious….What makes you think that anyone wants your left…? Better watch out or they will let CRAIG back on here to deal with you.
Thank you CaptainObvious!!
Seems that there are a lot of people who need to cut down on the caffeine and high sugar foods.
Until such time as a trade is/isn’t done, quit saying this deal or that deal WON’T BE DONE (caps are intentional). How the heck do any of you - do any of us - know what is and isn’t possible? Until such time as any of you are in on these conversations, let’s refrain from saying what will or won’t happen - it just makes you sound stupid.
The structure of Johan’s future contract and the players who come to the Twins are not decided by any of us - and I’m sure BS and Crew are not glued to blogs to make sure certain players are good enough to be included in a trade. I trust the Twins’ scouting dept. knows what they’re doing.
I agree with call me stupid, lets just get this thing over with. i really think that the Mets deal would be the most beneficial. if we can get them to give us Gomez and Martinez I say take the deal no matter who else is in it. We don’t really need 3-4 pitching prospects, we have so many of them already. where are all these guys going to end up? What we need is a centerfielder and can get that with Gomez, and Martinez would be a nice addition to store away in the minors for a couple of years until we need to move cuddy to 3rd or DH. Plus we would never have to face Santana unless the Mets and Twins make the World Series in the same year. If it doesn’t happen this week say bye to Santana and hello draft picks, becasue it isn’t going to happen at the deadline. Lets be realistic, do you think that if the Bo-Sox are in the chase at the end of the year they are going to give up Ellsbury or Lester for that matter, and what about the Yanks are they going to give us Melky and Hughes I highly doubt it. Not to mention these teams could wait another 3 months and get into a bidding war without giving up 4-5 guys. This is it Twins Fans, it has to happen or the Twins have overplayed their cards, and if all we end up with when this is done is a couple of draft picks I will not be happy and neither should any of you.
whos craig? can he play centerfield? maybe we’ll throw him in the deal
take it easy Reezee,
everyone is speculating here, thats the fun of it. what else is there at this point?
“Bill Smith needs to realize…”
Ah, the hubris. “Since I’m a Met fan, I’m ENTITLED to get whatever players I want.”
Bill Smith doesn’t NEED to realize anything. Johan Santana is a Minnesota Twin, signed to a 2008 contract.
If Omar Minaya wants Santana to be a member of the 2008 New York Mets, then HE ‘needs to realize’ it’s up to HIM to meet the Twins asking price.
If not, fine. Have fun looking up at the Phillies and the Bravos in the standings.
Either way, shut the heck up about Bill Smith. He’s under no obligation to the New York Mets.
SANTANA TO THE TIGERS HMM…..
If you look at the minor league stats of Pelfrey, Mulvey, Humber, etc…..NONE of them dominated in the minors. Yes, they had some success but the Twins minor league pitchers were dominate prior to the bigs. Some made it in the bigs and some didn’t.
If Pelfrey can throw 97mph, then he deserves a good look. Maybe Anderson can turn him into a MLB pitcher.
All in all, the Mets prospect don’t look very impressive on paper. Sorry.
USAchief,
id like to refer you to a previous post by GetitDone
Hey, I’m all for speculation. But it’s one thing to say, “That trade would suck” or “Dear Lord No!” and another to say “That won’t happen”. Who the sam hill knows at this point?
martinez/guerra/mulvey/lagares/garcia or a 3rd base prospect
ill take it and in 2010
Casilla - 2B
mauer - C
Cuddy - RF
Morneau - 1B
Young - RF
Martinez - CF
Kubel - DH
3rd base prospect
Lagares - SS
Liriano,Guerra,Baker,Slowey,Mulvey
eh?!?!
Reezee,
so you agree, Bill Smith should follow this advise givin by freddie mercury
“get on your bike and ride!!!”
We’ll trade you Craig for a “potted plant”….straight up.
Did GetitDone post anything about what Bill Smith “needs” to do?
I missed it.
It’s quite simple. The New York Mets are not entitled to Johan Santana. If they want him, meet the price. If not, play 2008 without him and pay him his $150M next winter.
It’s time to get down to business, the Mets need Santana, that’s all there is to it. The Twins need to demand the Mets include:
F-Mart/Guerra/Pelfry/Heilman and Gomez.If the Twins are going to trade for prospects they need to get who they want, they are trading the best picture in baseball for crying out loud. If the Mets can’t live with this package their done…end of story. MAKE THIS VERY CLEAR TO THE METS!!! Then let the Yankees know what you want from them; Hughes, Kennedy, what ever…and if that doesn’t happen, make it clear you are now going to make the Ellsbury deal so this is their last chance if they want Santana. Then burn the Yankees ass by making the trade to the Redsox. The Ellsbury deal is the best offer anyhow. We get a center fielder and lead-off hitter, two big holes we need to fill. Nothing is going to happen unless you take a risk and let the teams involved know it’s time to step up to the plate because a deal is going to be made… KNOW. Time will tell if the Twins made a good move or not.
First of all, done of the pitchers your getting from the Mets (if a deal were done) are as likely to be a top 2 starter as Hughes. HOWEVER to simply state that none of them dominated the minors this year doesnt mean a whole lot. Guerra was the youngest player in the league this year, an 18 year old pitching in the FSL for the full year (he hasn’t even turned 19 yet) I’m sure he would look more sexy to Twins fans (and maybe rightfully so) if they hade him in the GCL DOMINATING the league but the Mets believe in aggressive promotion and for the most part it has worked out… Reyes, Wright, Bannister (just not for us lol)
Cheif,
next ur gonna tell me youll be happy with 2 draft picks rather than Gomez and 4 high/mid level prospects..
Hawk,
i dont know Craig but maybe he went ice fishing
The trade needs to be done NOW not KNOW
0% chance the Twins get a package with Fernando/Gomez/Heilman all in one deal…. quote me on that one.
I WILL GIVE YOU ONE SOCRATES FOR YOUR ONE CRAIG
Hawk,
Omar pushes his prospect to higher minor league levels than other teams. Look at the ages and experience levels of the players you’re comparing. If a player puts up good numbers in AA as a 22 yr old does that make him better than an 18 yr old who put up average numbers at the same level? Pelfrey got his first taste of the majors before he had a full year in the minors. Mulvey pitched in AA the same year he was drafted.
Wow, some of these posts have gotten really angry…
Question to Twins fans: Do you think there is any legitimite concern regarding Johan’s arm because of the end of last year? There have been random reports saying thigs like his arm was tired, etc, but do you think something is really wrong?
Don,
That theory makes Melky a hell of a player.
I will be happier with 2 draft picks AND ONE MORE YEAR OF SANTANA ATOP THE TWINS ROTATION than I would be with Gomez and 4 pieces of junk, yes.
Yes I would be.
But what I want isn’t important. It’s what Bill Smith wants that Omar needs to meet.
Not the other way around.
If Santana is a Met I believe the deal will be ONE of Gomez and Martinez, One of Pelfrey and Humber plus Mulvey, Guerra and a 5th player like Parnell/Niese
Dan (NY) The only thing wrong with Johan is his ability not to sign a contract worth 20mill a season when it is obvious that other teams would have a problem signing him to a huge contract to
captain…..I am with Jimmie B. I would rather give him to the Tigers and face him 19 times a year than to the Mets and their arrogant fans. Keep yous prospects and get in a bidding war with the Yankees. You will come in second again, but then your probably getting used to that.
As a Met fan, I am getting really nervous that this is not going to happen. The Twins may feel like time is running out, but the Mets are really the ones over a barrel over here. We were unable to make any upgrade to our rotation (which we sorely needed given the loss of Glavine) and we’ve basically been waiting around all off-season for a big pitcher (Santana, Bedard, or Haren). If something doesn;t get done, the fans will be pretty disappointed.
give him to the Tigers cause it would be fun watching AL East teams argue over who gets there buts kicked first. series after series after series
Pieces of junk? Lets allow TWINS Fan John Sickels to rate the Mets prospects ok?….. Sickels gives Guerra a B+, Gomez a B (with the comment that he may raise it to a B+), Mulvey a B, Humber gets a B-, and Pelfrey is not eligible because he pitched too much in the majors…. based on HIS ranking of the Twins farm system (remember he is openly a Twins fan)… both Guerra and Gomez would be either your #1 prospect or no lower then 3rd….. Humber’s B- is = to your #6 best prospect Trevor Plouffe and Mulvey’s B would rank him somewhere between your 2nd and 5th best prospect….
I think if there were any real worries about Johan’s arm trade talks wouldn’t be so serious. The Twins FO has to know that the team acquiring Santana would require a thorough physical to make sure there’s nothing wrong with him give what they would be sacrificing.
I also don’t believe the Twins would have offered him a 4/80mil. extension if there was much to worry about immediately.
All this said I think many are overvaluing Ellsbury and undervaluing Gomez. I too have fallen into the Ellsbury would make this lineup look God like but I’m worried last year was just a hot streak and he’ll never live up to the hype. However with a Mets deal including Gomez, Guerra, and Martinez there is a great chance that one or two of them at least will work out and who knows about the other pitchers. All the players involved in a possibly mets deal are so young there’s great possibility of multiple good to great players.
+we wouldn’t have to see Johan go up against the Twins.
There wasn’t anything wrong with Santana’s arm. There was something wrong with the Twins’ anemic offense headed by… yes, I am going to say it (heck we have not picked on him in awhile) LNP! It’s hard to consistently win 1-0 games.
gman,
i can only speak for myself but i dont think ive been arrogant. Just trying to add some humor since obviously tensions are high here, mostly because this entire thing has gone on too long. Once we make the deal you guys will sit around and gush about the prospects you got from the Mets.. and we’ll do the same saying how we stole Johan and how great he is. In the end and with all things considered, both of us will have done quite well.
The best prospect mentioned has been Hughes, then Fernando Martinez, then Lester or Lowrie
Right on Metro 2008. Although there is no prime guy like Hughes in there the sum of the parts is greater in my mind with a mets deal.
You are all crazy. Coco Crisp is tori hunter without the power and more speed. Lester is really good. Lowrie is a starter and masterson and kalish. HELLO! 3 starters and two good prospects, all of which are inexpensive and will stay that way for years,for A guy we cant afford. This is a no brainer. Ellsbury is over hyped, melky is weak, What has hughes done over Lester? throws harder? and the only reason we trade with mets is to not have Santana knock us out of the playoffs every year. We got to get there first. Ask the sox for another prospect and get this trade over with.
Mets Fans,
Question. Seriously… Why is Guerra a Top Prospect. He is 6′5 but his fastball averages 90 and tops out at 92. This is an improvement over last year where he topped out in the upper 80’s. His 2nd pitch is a average change and his curve ball is bad (but developing). Why are people so high on him? They say he has a high ceiling, but I dont see it.
jama -
Church would rotate w/Monroe in CF, apparently he made some noise this weekend in the “other paper” saying he wanted a shot at it - so there you go.
Cuddy - need that RH power to break up all the lefties, he’ll bounce back. I like the 4th year option.
Church, Martinez, Pelfrey, Guerra and possibly another ways-off prospect.
Santana’s arm is fine. He’s had some difficulty “tipping” pitches and some blisters but no arm problems. Since becoming a SP, he’s averaged 33-34 starts per year and 219-233 IP/year. I don’t recall him every missing a start in 4yrs because of injury.
Guerra tops off at 96 and his changeup is a plus plus pitch.
Chief, in theory omar has to meet Bill Smith’s demands to get johan, but it is becoming pretty clear that johan is not going to resign with the twins for a discount in years or dollars. I don’t think you can make the case that smith can get the same value out of two draft picks as he will out of a trade, especially given the teams reluctance to pay over slot in the draft. Terry Ryan put BS in a spot where he has very little bargaining power. The bottom line is that he probably won’t get all he wants in a trade, and if he pushes his luck he won’t get more than two picks. If I was a twins fan, I’d have no problem just hanging on to him if I thought the team was going to be competetive in 2008. Personally, I see them as a long shot behind the indians and tigers, and the white sox seem to be pretty solid if they can add a starter or contreras rediscovers how to pitch.
Take hughes, Cabrera and Kennedy add Nathan to the johan trade. then use Neshek as the closer
Dan
i agree with you. Guerra, Gomez, Martinez, Pelfrey.
Make the trade. Get it done.
I wish the Mets organization wouldn’t have messed with some of these guys by rushing them through the system. I think Pelfrey, Gomez and Martinez would have been better served if they were allowed to progress in the minors. The three of them would be more attractive prospects if they were handled properly.
Does anyone believe that another ballclub will give Santana a 7 year contract? Wonder what would happen if the Twins offerred 5 years a $20M per.
Probably wouldn’t matter since he like the rest of the players is simply a mercenary.
Here’s a scouting report on Guerra..
Strengths: Guerra has two present above-average pitches that could become well above-average. His fastball had below-average velocity for most of his first season, but now it ranges from 89-94 mph and touches 96. He features excellent arm speed on his changeup, his best offering since he signed, and it should become a big league out pitch once he commands it.
Weaknesses: While Guerra’s curveball remains a below-average pitch, he has shown an ability to spin the ball and it projects as an average offering. At 18, Guerra still is learning the finer arts of pitching, such as holding runners, fielding his position and pitch sequences.
The Future: Guerra has thrown just 179 pro innings and has plenty of projection in his big-shouldered frame. The Mets have monitored Guerra’s workload carefully, and he has plenty of projection in his big-shouldered frame. His next goal will be to stay healthy and pass the 100-inning level.
no ball club is going to give santana a 7yr 25 mill per contract. Who would be that dumb. no team is really rushing into it. Not even the Yanks are trying for it. he should just sign the 4 yr. i personally don’t think a non everyday player is worth that kind of cash. Not even Johan
I think Guerra + Gomez or Martinez has to be where the Twins start. 2 of those three need to be part of any deal.
Metro,
I pulled the info from Scout.com. It is subscription, so I cant paste. The number are what they listed in the scouting report as of Jan 08, 2008.
I have read plenty of profiles of pitchers with Tools. It just doesn’t seem that Guerra has them. I am just curious because his is highly ranked (BA & Sickels). I just don’t get it.
Dellin Bettances is ranked below Guerra (by BA) yet his Fastball tops at 98 with a plus curve already.
So much of these rankings seem arbitrary.
rpb
everybody is so high on Guerra because he is 19! 18 when he was having success at single A. his fastball should improve and give him time on his other pitches. there is a reason why everyone is so high on him.
Don-
I don’t get what you’re saying about the Mets moving their pitchers up faster than our teams.
Santana was pitching in the bigs at 21.
Liriano was 21
Slowey was 23
Crain was 23
Perkins was 23
They all played AAA and AA at very early ages and most were dominate. I just don’t see that in the Mets pitchers, no matter the age.
Like I said…. IF Santana is traded to the Mets I think the deal will be Fernando OR Gomez, Guerra, Humber OR Pelfrey, Mulvey and a 5th lesser piece.
If the mets truly are reluctant to add martinez to gomez, guerra, mulvey, and humber I don’t think we’ll ever get to pelfrey, guerra, martinez and gomez. That’s a pretty large step up from the reported offer. That’s 2 guys with ace potential (obviously just potential, both have a long way to go to reach it), and two of’ers with sky is the limit potential. I don’t think the twins would even hesitate if this was offered. I also don’t think it will ever get offered.
WHY DON’T WE TRADE HIM FOR Paul Byrd and Sabathia heads up and take the 20 mill and give it to them
Dan,
I don’t believe there is anything at all behind Buster Olney’s report. The extremly conservative Twins offered him a 4 year $80 million extension, if there was any hint of him being injured they wouldn’t have done that.
People do get a little to heated about who will get traded for what. The deal will probaly be seen as a loss by both teams fan base. From the Twins view, we didn’t get enough, from the Mets, we gave too much!
Who do you believe in talent evaluation? I have never seen F-mart, Guerra, how do I know. At least with Gomez, Pelfrey, and such, there is a little track record. I like Gomez’ tools. For me, he is a must have from the Mets. Closer to the bigs, and already shows 3 to 4 above average tools, with every reason to believe with proper coaching his bat will develop.
For the Mets, you’ll love watching Johan, truly a great competitor. Great stuff, and class. Every fifth day will be the Johan Santana show.
JOHN LACKEY AND JARED WEAVER HEADS UP FOR SANTANA
Guerra and Fernando Martinez were the 2 youngest players in their respective leagues, as was Juan Lagares in the SAL. Carlos Gomez was the 7th youngest player in the majors this year. The Mets promote players at a much faster rate then most teams. Pelfrey made his debut in 2006 without even one full year of minor league baseball. Humber is a different story as he had TJ surgery and basically cost him 2 seasons…. Guerra isn’t even 19 yet and will start 2008 at AA (assuming he is still a Met) which means he could STINK all year and still debut as a 20 year old in the majors late 2009.
Some people on this blog are about as clueless as our faithful GM. It’s all over the internet that he seems to have over-played his hand. I tend to agree.
I live baseball, I don’t just watch it. I watch all teams and enjoy different players on each of them. I am not a stat freak, but I have for the last 5 years watched over 200+ games per season. (Okay I am a baseball freak, I know)
However, the Mets package of kids..
:::::::::METS::::::::::
A) Way too young! A lot of risk
B) Not as good as the bosox/yanks
C) Top Prospects for Mets don’t equal Top MLB
D) Young top prospects rarely every make it, in fact (more often -less than TOP prospects- become great unexpectedly than top prospects becoming great)
one year away sure, 2 years away.. concern, 3 years away from the BIGS - flat out HIGH RISK!
:::::::::YANKS:::::::::
A)Phil Hughes is one of the BEST young pitchers in MLB (maybe a fight for 1rst with Buckholtz)
Those of you who don’t think Phil Hughes is the best player in any of the packages are sadly mistaken and probably have no idea what they are talking about
B) Yankees have other TOP talent even if Hughes is removed (Saying this compared to the Mets)
C) If we let the Yanks Keep Hughes and go with Kennedy, (who some scouts say he can be a #2 easily) we can maybe get 4 other prospects like Tabata, Gardner, Jackson, Brackmen, Horne, etc..
D) If they drop out .. the sox WILL lower their deal, make no mistake about it
::::::::::SOX::::::::::
A) Redsox have been toying with this deal for awhile, if the yanks drop out they will lower their deal and possibly remove ellsbury.
B) I don’t like the lester, crisp +2 deal nearly as much as a Kennedy, tababta/jackson deal +2
Let me recapitulate:
If the Yanks don’t budge, and the sox don’t budge and we are left with the METS deal even with both (FMART and CGOMEZ) I want Bill Smith gone! If he blows the deal for trading the best pitcher in the game, than he is not cut out to be GM
I say that we don’t keep gambling by pushing for more more more, more has not come, and it isn’t going to (Maybe if Santana had a lesser price tag it would)
If the Yanks and Sox bow out we are SCREWED.
If I was Smith, I would work a 5 player deal with the Yankees starting with Kennedy.
Santana for Kennedy, Cabrera, Tabata, Horne, Ohlendorf
sub cabrera for gardner if need be, but I want melky for a year.. give him a shot, if he is dead wood we got tababta on his way up.
Hawk,
Guerra is on the same track as Santana to reach the majors at 21, Martinez at 20 if you give them one year at each level.
Compare that to Ellsbury who gets so much hype and was already 24 last year.
Ski, I agree with pretty much everything you posted (at 1:54PM), except that I don’t happen to think it’s that much of a stretch to think the Twins can surprise in 2008.
I agree the Tigers and Indians both look stronger on paper, but there are things about the Twins many people overlook.
The Twins won 96 games as recently as 2006. They almost HAVE to have a better offense in 08, and with Santana and maybe 160 innings of Liriano atop the rotation coupled with a pretty tough bullpen, they are not a team that can be written off.
As I said, I would take a year of contention and two draft picks over all the rumored offers so far.
Plus, there remains the possibility of dealing Santana at the deadline if necessary. If a team expected to contend (say, a team that lives in New York) struggles into July, can you imagine the pressure they’d be under to go get Santana?
HUGHES, CABRERA AND KENNEDY FOR SANTANA AND NATHAN
sorry for the long post guys but it is worth the read. Please read it.
Kennedy + tabata or jackson is much better than
ellsbury OR lester +3
the mets deal is crap! PERIOD!
Unless Johan said he prefers the mets, can someone please tell me how we can take their offer seriously? I can tell you, because BILL SMITH is a moron!! We are at this wall because he put us here.
Man you guys are really overrating Cabrera, you are better off keeping Santana till the deadline, signing a guy like Lofton and waiting for Revere. If you can get Hughes 100% pull the trigger but Melky is what he is… and what that is is a stop gap CF with limited upside.
Hmm, so Guerra is a Venezuelan with a nice fastball and a great changeup…
Sounds like something we could use…
PHIL HUGHES, CABRERA AND KENNEDY FOR SANTANA AND NATHAN
Unlike many NY Fans I’m a Met fan that hopes a trade would work out for both teams… That being said, I fear giving up F-Mart and Guerra in the same deal. I’ve heard the Mets tried to limit Guerra’s pitching to A) Protect his arm at age 18 also B) To limit his exposure so he wouldn’t be requested in trade discussions this winter. Guerra will be the real deal. F-Mart I saw firsthand in a minor league series vs. the Altoona Curve this past summer–The ball jumps off his bat. Even at Age 18! Even when he fouls it off! If 1 of Mulvey or Humber or Pelfrey turn out to be a Kevin Tapani type you will have done well for a guy who is 9 months from Free agency. The Mets have to pay Johan and turn around and make him the face of the franchise with Wright and Reyes. If Johan were to ever get hurt (He DID have a suspect 2nd half), it would set the Mets back 5 to 7 years. The Mets are built to win now. The Twins are building for 3 years from now. They will NOT be able to beat out the Tigers or Indians over the next 2 to 3 years. And the W/Sox have the financial wherewithal to get good fast! You will be better served taking F-Mart, Guerra, and 2 of Mulvey, Pelfrey, and Humber. I’d rather keep Mike “Bats in the” Pelfrey, as I think he has better stuff than the other 2. but would be fine if he HAD to be part of the deal. Guerra and F-Mart though…Whew, tough tough. Those 2 I fear losing. I’d hope you’d rather have Gomez. Gomez will be very good. But F-Mart has a much higher ceiling. Being in NY I can tell you the Yanks will not deal Hughes and pay Johan and increase their luxury tax contribution. Gomez will be way better than Melky and the Eqivalent of Ellsbury if not end up with more power. Well I hope this ends sooner, We’ve all been waiting for too long… No?
I don’t think that the twins can’t be competitive, but I think liriano is a huge question mark at this point. I’d guess the twins are more likely to get nothing out of him than 160 quality innings. A year from now that might be a different story, but it seems like pitchers take several years to return to their old form from TJ surgery if they rely on power stuff. I love the delmon young deal, but he is still very raw. I just think they may need a little more time to be competitive the way the division is built right now, and I really think every team but the white sox is better than they were two seasons ago. As a met fan I’m biased, but if you think the mets package has promise than I’d doubt you get the same deal at the deadline. Not only will the odds of santana becoming a rental player increase, but the extremely young mets prospects will probably only increase in value. I can’t see martinez losing value in AA, or gomez losing value in AAA, but if either gets hot early their value will skyrocket. Same goes for guerra and mulvey. Humber is the one guy there who could lose signifigant value in the minors this year. I think Nathan’s value will increase mid season, while johan’s will not.
A) Somebody asked earlier if anyone else think Cuddyer was overpaid..
I think he was vastly overpaid…85% of the right fielders out there could probably get 100 RBIs and bat .275 hitting between the M and M boys.
B) I think the Twins will be able to obtain 2 of the top 3 prospects from the Mets. That is, 2 of Guerra, Fmart, and Gomez.
Given the Twins history, and my own hunch, I think Guerra will be included in any deal with the Mets, hence meaning only 1 of Gomez and Fmart.
And Yes, I think Santana will be a Met within the next 10 days.
Reality,
Calm down. Nothing has happened yet, its all speculation.
Remember, these are your opinions, not fact. The Twins will have the proper evaluation done if they do end up trading Santana. Have a little faith and patience.
Reality,
They may be your opinions, but I agree.
Reality Check-
Explain how Kennedy, Tabata, plus would be better than Pelfrey, Martinez, Guerra, Church…
Tabata and Martinez are pretty dang simular, with the exception of Martinez being ranked higher in most publications. Kennedy has done well, and would be a better peice than Pelfrey- but only a year ago Pelfrey was touted as having Ace potential- something than no one has said about Kennedy. Church is older but better (right now) than Cabrara.
But where the deals are lobsided towards the Mets is the bottom. Guerra is much better than anything the Yankees are offering (which, is Jeff Marquez btw).
I will be very disapointed if we do a deal with the Yankees and Phil Hughes is not involved.
NATHAN FOR SOSA AND SANTANA FOR TEJADA
I think the writer, most Twins fans and maybe even their GM are simply expecting too much in return for Santana. YES, the guy is the best pitcher in the game and should have more than a few great/good years left in him. He also has a full no trade clause and is only one year from free agency. Obviously, a player of his caliber that is so close to free agency is not going to approve a trade unless he is offered an extension that at least approaches market value in terms of dollars and years. If the reports are correct, that price tag will be in the neighborhood of 7 years at $20 million per. That kind of contract is a tremendous risk in and of itself. When you add in luxury tax consequences and the kind of talent the Twins are seeking, its a no-brainer. As a Yankee fan, I say: Let some other schmuck overpay for a change.
Part of the problem with adding a player is figuring out who the Twins can afford to give up that is worth anything to another team?
Span? No.
Rincon? No, and they just extended him.
Nathan? No, package becomes too expensive to recieving team.
Pitching prospect? No. If they trade Santana they’re going to need their top young pitchers. Unless they can get Hughes AND Cabrera AND other stuff…or Lester AND Ellsbury (not happening)
Hitting prospect? No. Twins are trying to trade pitching for hitting. They can’t afford to give up any hitting prospect worth anything.
The best they could maybe offer is some AA/A players. And is there anything there that would up the ante enough to finally get somebody to cough it up.
I still like the three way deal. Especially if one of the hangups on the Yanks side is still Matsui. Find somebody to take Matsui, take what ou want from New York, and then give them Santana.
The only thing in all that is finding a team willing to help the Yanks get Johan.
jimmy bee:
Sosa is past his prime.
Tejada was already traded this offseason. It took Houston 4-5 prospects.
Got any better ideas?
NO TEAM CAN AFFORD TO PAY ONE PLAYER 25 MILL OVER 7 YEARS
Somebody posted something to the effect that if we could get Gomez’ OBP up to .350 etc. Gomez had a OBP in AAA of .363 last year.
If he maintains above .350 OBP in the majors he will be one of the better lead off hitters. Watching him play CF last year when Beltran was hurt left no doubt in my mind that he will be a better defensive CF than Beltran. Arm strength is similar with much more speed to track down balls.
best case scenario:
the mets and twins have a deal in place, and the Hank hears about it and decides to kick back a few rum and cokes to build up the courage to give up hughes, kennedy, and jackson for Santana.
Then we trade Rincon and Swarzak for Crisp.
and the Twins are set!
Ski,
The only way Santana increases in value during the season is if a contending team suffers injuries and gets desperate. Still, contending teams will really only offer prospects or ‘rentals’ at that point in the season. The offers don’t get significantly better, but they don’t disappear either. Injuries are a likely scenario…and whether you admit it or not…the Mets rotation is vulnerable.
All teams have injuries and some will need pitching. It’s a huge gamble to keep Santana. Maybe the Twins contend, maybe not…maybe he invokes his no trade clause (and maybe he finds a stint on the DL right before free agency, which won’t help his value). All parties are subject to risk and this could play out any number of ways.
Bottom line, Smith is not desperate, and the Mets haven’t met the current trade criteria (no one else has either)…so we wait.
Phil… you better hope it isnt the Sox that “overpay” or you will be on the outside looking in for the next 5 years or so…
Trade him to the angels for jared weaver and Lackey
Ryan Wake-up!
One reason:: METS have HIGH SCHOOL KIDS IN THEIR PACKAGE!
I am not going to waste time and debate you player to player… I’m sure you can figure it out yourself if you only look.
My Brothers son is 17 he hit .396 with 15 HR and had 14 SB .. he had an awesome year. Maybe we can trade him to the Twins for Santana to play on Maverick High Schools Varsity team!
RyanW
Kennedy >> Pelfrey
Tabata = FMart
Bettances > Guerra (my opinion)
+ b level prospect (Hilligoss, Kontos, etc…)
Who knows, it is all a crap shoot and the Twins will not get fair value because of Sanatana contract demands
Trade him to the angels for Weaver, Lackey and the rally monkey but for sure get the monkey cause it reminds me of Craig
jimmy bee = Craig??
Nope not even close Hawk. You must have flown the coupe
Read past blogs and if you knew anything you would have seen that i give Craig a hard time.
Your’s and Craig’s posts are equally annoying. Sorry.
Hunter and Santana won’t settle for the $60M to $95 range in longterm deals. They insist on $90M to $120M+. And Silva skipped town for his big payday.
Just think how great a team we’d have this year with those three.
I don’t have any repect for Hunter and Santana anymore.
LAVIII and everyone are feeling jittery and/or a little depressed by all the Santana speculation. But it’s more Santana’s and Hunter’s fault than it is the FO’s.
I’m beginning not to care what happens to Santana and the Twins anymore.
“Bottom line, Smith is not desperate, and the Mets haven’t met the current trade criteria (no one else has either)…so we wait.”
YOU THINK?
Uhm, mark my words he is tossing and turning each night.. he is absolutely desperate.. and if it comes down to hanging on to Santana — cause it’s not a bad thing — having Santana would not be a bad thing, but being that Bill Smith couldn’t trade him THAT IS A BAD THING!!
For now, I have voiced my opinions.. I will for the time being give Bill Smith the slightest benefit of doubt.
If I were the Yankees, I am not trading Hughes and Kennedy NO WAY!
If I am the mets, and I can get Santana by adding FMART .. I would’ve have had this done already!!
The Mets keep posturing saying, “We won’t add FMART.. ” because they are trying to build value for their CRAP PACKAGE.
If they somehow pull that off, they will have fleeced the Twins.
Redsox, are not real.
Don- that was me.
Yes, you are correct that in 36 games at AAA last year Gomez had an OBP over .350.
However his career MiLB average OBP is .336, he has never had another season with an OBP over .350, and had a blistering .288 OBP for the Mets last year. Also, in the minors he has a 88/250 BB/K rate.
He needs to get significantly better to be a good Major League CF… he is young, and could do it… but he is far from a sure thing.
for the past 6-7 weeks we’ve heard every possible speculated combination of players in the trade and how many times has it been the next couple days, the next week and it appears things are not any closer than the first week in dec. sigh………. really need something to happen! this isn’t giving us any time before st to complain about whatever trade is made, if any, so i’ll complain about that to.
Is Hawk a BLOG Nazi?
gooble,
no need to fret, this thing will be done by the end of the week. I predict Wed. we’ll get the news.
captain obvious I would have to agree that by Wednesday Santana will be a Met
Reality Check says:
“Ryan Wake-up!
One reason:: METS have HIGH SCHOOL KIDS IN THEIR PACKAGE!”
Jose Tabata, born August 12, 1988- 19 years old.
Fernando Martinez, October 10, 1988- 19 years old.
Ok, you can stop yelling now.
Reality Check,
I won’t debate how ‘desperate’ anyone is, but I agree with your trade scenarios. The Yanks appear content and aren’t budging. The Sox aren’t for real. And, if the Mets are willing to let an 18 year old prospect (even a possible hitting phenom in 2-3 years)…scuttle a blockbuster deal that could put them over the top in the NL right now. Then they have made a serious mistake this off-season.
This is entertaining reading. The thing is all anyone knows about the prospects is what they’ve read, and considering you can read 5 reports and they all say something else it makes it tough. Being a Mets fan I follow the Mets kids, and think they’re great. But I could not argue that a Yanks package built around Kennedy/Tabata isn’t better. Not because I believe it, but because nobody will know what the best offer is/was for another 5 years. Maybe Hughes needs rotator cuff surgery by next year (he has had quite a few injuries, though most were strange). Maybe Guerra get his fastball to sit at 96 and top out at 99 with a great change and becomes Johan from the right side and 5 inches taller.
It’s impossible to say. It is all about your own opinion.
Don’t jump on people for having differing views, because in the end, they may be right!
I still say the Mets package is great because of the abundance of guys with high ceilings. I’m going on a Gomez/F-Mart/Guerra + 1 or 2 pitchers.
The Yanks trade is centered so strongly on Hughes that if he gets injured the trade is a flop.
Ellsbury is way overvalued right now IMO. If we knew he could somehow repeat his 07 1/4 of a season then by all means go get him but I’m not that confident it will happen.
The chances that either F-mart or Gomez turns out to be better than him is high. I guess I don’t see the Twins contending without Santana so I’m more willing to taking a chance on a number guys that will be hitting their stride in 09-10 rather than putting all the stock in one main player from either the Sox or Yanks + we get him out of the AL.
slerv,
you should be the twins GM
As for the Gomez numbers, I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. Gomez has taken a half year to adjust to each new level. In AA for instance he took a .211 BA into the All Star break, and ended up hitting near .300 for the year. The second half of the season was amazing. The same basic thing happened at each earlier level for the kid. Once he learns a level he is wonderful to watch. If you don’t get him in a deal, I hope you’ll still watch to see him turn into a complete stud. And if you do get him, I’ll still watch him to see him turn into a complete stud.
So many experts on here. Yes the Red Sox and Yankees have made offers. How in the Hell do you know if they have pulled out. Everyone needs to calm down to wait and see how it unfolds. Theo from Boston has said many times, “I did not give the Twins a timetable”. Its all speculation that they are no longer in this. Have patience.
give me
martinez/guerra/mulvey/garcia/lagares
and its a done deal.
4 prospects, 2 have high ceilings, and mulvey can step in with our young rotation..
RyanW: “[Gomez] has never had another season with an OBP over .350″
True, but in 2006 in 120 G he had an OBP of exactly .350. Which means that over his last 2 minor league seasons combined (2007 = .363) he HAS hit over .350.
slervball- I agree, a package with the most number of guys with high ceilings is the most appealing to me. Some of these guys wont pan out, but some will. You increase your chances with 3-4 high ceiling guys v.s. 1-2.
I don’t think santana or hunter are greedy players. Terry Ryan never offered either an extension that would be deemed fair value, If he had offered johan 5 and 93 last spring I think we wouldn’t be trying to figure ou twho had the best package right now. Hunter left for a boatload of money, but was he really ever offered a morneau type extension? How about silva? If you wait to long to talk extension with your players they’d be insane to take a discount. Believe me, I’m a sabres fan so I’ve seen the worst example of this in pro sports. Bill Smith is already doing a great job by resigning cuddy and morneau long term, and has set a precedent to do the same with guys like delmon and liriano. Terry Ryan has set him up in a lousy spot with the johan situation though. Johan has seen no examples of the team building to win now in his time with minnesota, and rightfully shouldn’t want to take a discount 1 year away from the biggest payday of his life. In my opinion, it would be in BS’s best interest to resolve this as soon as possible and move on with his team.
Captain,
Thanks, however I’m assuming that was sarcastic?
Also if you look at Gomez’ splits you will see that the one month in the majors (June) that he got regular playing time he had an OBP of .351.
Don- point taken. Again, I think he might make a very good player some day in the Major leagues… I am just saying there is some risk that he will not fully develop into a good leadoff man.
Career Minor League OBP
Gomez .336- 1 season over .350
Ellsbury .389- 0 seasons UNDER .350
Lowrie .386- 0 seasons UNDER .350
Why not look at what it would take to get Bedard from Baltimore? From what I hear it is Adam Jones and Morrow — basically a young OF and a middle of the road pitching prospect. Bedard has two years left until he is a FA.
Keep Santana if we can’t get what we want and go for it.
SP — Santana, Bedard, Liriano — if healthy, Slowey, Baker, Boof.
Hey Ryan,
Why not factor in Age at each level? If Gomez repeated each level the way Ellsbury did don’t you think he would have covered that?
BFE,
Who do the Twins have that is comparable to Adam Jones as an OF prospect?
No one.
Bdid,
I think that what you are saying is that the Mets rush their prospects and do not let them develop properly, therefore they could be better that they are…
Perhaps they were rushed too fast and there is no turning back.
Perhaps the Mets should have repeated a level with Gomez. Maybe then he could hit a breaking ball.
At what point does Santana tell the Twins to either deal him or hold him? If they start the season with Santana, I could see him telling them that he does not want to be dealt mid-season (and he has no-trade clause too).
I would imagine that Johan would need to start working on some different things and approaches if he is going to be joining the NL East.
Socrates:
You are correct we don’t have the OF prospect right now. But we do have more pitching prospects. All I am saying is take a look. You could even take a look if you trade Santana.
I’m not saying he was rushed, just that he’s 2.5 years younger than Ellsbury and can EASILY match the production of Ellsbury if put back down to AA this year (which is where Jacoby played as a 22 year old). And if you look at just the AA stats from 2006 (where they both played) it is amazing how well 20 year old Gomez did compared to 22 year old Ellsbury
It doesn’t look like jones and morrow, it looks like jones, sherrill, tillman, and a fourth prospect. Jones is comparable to delmon, he probably even has slightly more value at this point because he can play center. Tillman is a pretty good prospect too. This package is way better than anything the twins have been offered for johan.
Any reported package that is.
humber has a huge era
The Twins have overplayed their hand. They are not trading the best pitcher in the game for prospects. They are trading one year of Santana for five years of control of Hughes, Lester or Ellsbury, plus significant control over the remainder of the prospects. Santana is not taking a discount on his contract extension. He will demand the market rate, so the team trading for Santana is literally trading for only one year of his services. The package the Twins get back should not be worth very much. The Twins seems to be valuing Santana as if they have him under control for two or three more years, not just one. That’s why a trade hasn’t been made yet.
I’d take Ellsbury, Lowrie, and Masterson over the Seattle deal for Bedard. I would just hate Johan to go to Boston.
“This package is way better than anything the twins have been offered for johan.”
Bedard is younger, cheaper, and is further away from free agency. It makes him more valuable to a lot of teams.
Don, 100% agreed…I’m just making the point that the twins would be very hard pressed to just go out and get bedard and go for it in 2008. Some people here seem to be advocating that approach.
I can understand how people who aren’t familiar with the Twins think that they have overplayed their hand. This is the Twins way! Its called patience! They have lost nothing in bargaining power, has Theo ever said we are done by a certain point, no. He did say he respects the position the Twins are in, and that he gave them no timetable. So stop guessing!
Don, Ski,
Once again, your opinion. I don’t feel so.
We don’t even know who the fourth player is, or if there is one. so hold on abit.
Fact is, this trade is for Santana with a 7 year, 140 mil contract. This is NOT a Santana for one year deal.
Every single report states that there will be a window to sign Santana. If he doesn’t sign, it isn’t a deal. Simple as that. I really laugh at these people constantly talking about 1 year of Santana. Wouldn’t be that much different if we did a sign and trade. Same contract, same players. If Santana wants to get the contract this year, he okays the contract proposal. If he wants to see what the market will bear, he will wait, simple as that.
Lets just get over this 1 year of Santana thing since it simply isn’t true. No contract, there will be no trade.
Bdid,
Mot really a fair comparison between Gomez and Ellsbury. Ellsbury was drafted out of college in 2005. He was in the majors by 2007. A little more than 2 years of pro ball.
The whole comparison is off. Gomez has a higher ceiling due to his pwer potential. He is also not nearly as ready for a role in the majors.
The Mets do not do a good job developing prospects. They rush both their position players and the pitchers (to their detriment)
Me Too - You’re missing the point of the people who talk about trading for one year of Santana. The theory behind that is that if you trade for someone with a huge, risky contract (and all huge contracts for pitchers are risky) you aren’t obtaining much actual “value”. A commodity at or above market price has little value in trade, unless you trade it for another equal commodity at market price. So in a Santana trade you’re really obtaining one year at a bargain (actual value), plus a small value of having the right to pay market price or above for six or seven years. It’s really simply economics, but it’s a bit difficult to understand in pure baseball terms.
Think of it this way. If Santana were signed for seven years at $4M per year the trade offers would be astronomical, for far more than his true baseball value. If he were signed for seven years at $50M per year he’d have literally negative value in trade. At seven years for a total of $140-175M the trade value is minimal.
Me too,
I posted this article before. It does a good job breaking down the “economic value” of Santana for the NYY, BRS, & NYM.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ys-gennarosantanafinal011808&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
Dennis,
I get what you’re saying but there is still a lot of value in the trade because whoever gets him gets exclusive rights to sign him and doesn’t have to worry about him being bought out by someone else. With large market teams like the Mets, Yanks, and Red Sox money isn’t as much of an issue. Obviously being this would be a record contract they at least have to think about it but still.
I feel the reported offers are pretty on target and the Twins have just been patient hoping that one team will overpay. When it comes down to it, if the best reported offers are all that we get(Gomez, Guerra, etc./Ellsbury, Lowrie/ Hughes, Cabrera) the Twins will take whichever they like the best. The main hope is someone will take that extra step to make sure they get Johan.
I see what Me Too is saying, this is not like a rent a player that some people seem to make it out to be when we all know a trade won’t go down without a contract for Santana being finalized by the acquiring team. So, yes, they are taking a risk with the huge contract but no they will not be only getting one year of him.
An economic look at the Santana trade by Vince Gennaro, entire article is posted on Yahoo Sports.
The discussions between the Twins and Mets may hold the most promise. Acquiring Santana and signing him to a long-term deal is economically viable for the Mets because they have a new stadium in the works, their revenue would spike if they reach the postseason and they could remain under the luxury tax threshold. Santana’s potential revenue value to the Mets would average an estimated $40 million per year and would exceed his cost by about $100 million over six years, assuming the Mets can stay under the luxury tax threshold. This justifies the Mets packaging a combination of prospects from the list of Philip Humber, Carlos Gomez, Deolis Guerra, Kevin Mulvey and Fernando Martinez. If three of the five prospects materialize into a number three pitcher in the rotation, a starting outfielder and a solid relief pitcher, then the Twins and the Mets receive about the same value in the trade.
One factor working in favor of a trade is the Twins’ unwillingness to pony up the dollars to sign Santana to a long-term deal, which eventually could prompt them to lower their demands. On the other end of the deal, a team desperate for Santana could ignore the dramatic financial value created by developing front line pitching internally and take on the injury risk associated with giving a long-term deal to a starting pitcher who has averaged 228 innings over the past four years.
Any team who makes this trade will likely set its farm system back while placing a tremendous investment – and therefore risk – in one player. But if Santana ends up taking the hill in Game 1 of the World Series, the deal will be considered a good one.
Vince Gennaro is a consultant to several Major League Baseball teams and the author of “Diamond Dollars: The Economics of Winning in Baseball,” an innovative look at the business of baseball. This followed a 20-year career at PepsiCo, where he was president of a billion-dollar division. Gennaro teaches a graduate course on the business of baseball in the Sports Business Management program at Manhattanville College. Send Vince a question or comment at vgennaro07@yahoo.com.
Updated
My opinion,
Bottom line. Do you want the best pitcher in BB on your team?
By the way, you will have to pay him.
Ellsbury is the best name being talked about. He has already produced and starred at major laegue level. Hughes has been a disappointment so far and does not throw exceptionally hard(sits at 92-93). Ther Indians said Lester was the Sox 2nd best pitcher in the WS. I would focus on Boston.
good stuff mark.
the value of having Santana is 100 million over the cost of his contract. best pitcher in baseball over the last 4 years. suck it up mets and offer the right package.
To get the most out of a trade adding Nathan to the mix to the RedSox makes the most sense. The RedSox would then have a rotation of Santana, Becket, Schilling, DiceK and Paplebohn(like they wanted last year) and Nathan(everyone knows we can’t sign Nathan for the going rate of $10M+/year) as a closer. The only way you do the deal if you are the Twins is by getting Buckholz,Lester and Ellsbury.
Sets up the Twins with Liriano, Buckholz, Lester, Baker and Boof. Plus you have Slowey, Blackburn and Perkins in the wings to deal.
the only way id give nathan and santana, is for lester,buschowitz,ellsbury,masterson, lowrie, bowden.
bfe i agree.
Ben sounds the echo chamber with:
“The Twins have overplayed their hand.”
then says:
“The package the Twins get back should not be worth very much.”
So, lets say they do get a decent return… did they really overplay their hand?
I am confused.
i do think the red sox and yanks offers are much better than the highschoolers the mets are offering.
The only way I do the trade with Nathan(not going to get a lot for him at the trade deadline, FA after the year and everyone know there is no way the Twins can afford him) and Santana (price isn’t as high as we would all hope based on the cost of his future contract — limits trading partners) is for at least Buckholz, Lester and Ellsbury anything else you get is gravy. This might also get the Yanks to really up there offer to get Santana. An you could hold onto Nathan for later.
If you make the trade with Boston. Then I start calling Baltimore and Oakland and see what they want for Haren or Bedard. Also start looking at other hitters out there with the excess young SP we would have.
There is a reason the Twins will not package Santana and Nathan… they can get a lot more if they are seperated. Texas got Kason Gabbard, David Murphy and Engle Beltre in a deadline deal for Eric Gagne (an inferior pitcher to Nathan). So a ML ready young starting pitcher, a back up outfielder and a good young prospect… for Eric Gagne.
That would mean if we packaged them together we would be talking about a 2 for 7 type trade to get equal value.
If Nathan has a normal first half, and there is a need for closers at the deadline (which there always is) we might actually get as much for Nathan as we do for Santana…
Bill Madden of the Daily News is reporting the Yankees are officially OUT of the Santana running UNLESS the Twins hold him through ST and the Yankees suffer a major injury to someone like Pettitte.
BFE,
Have you been in a cave? Haren is long gone from the A’s (now with Arizona). Bedard will be gone from the Orioles, probably tomorrow…to Seattle (for more than we could have offered for him).
Any other ideas?
Metro-
That if fine, I like Hughes, but the deals for him we a little weak. He seems to get hurt alot, if he had injury problems, the deal would be a huge flop…
I like the Mets and Red Sox deals better anyway.
Nathan has 2-3 times the Value of Gagne in that he will be a type A FA, so worst case is the team that traded for him lets him walk and gets picks… Nathan is also a much better pitcher then Gagne at this point.
RyanW,
I would agree with that assessment except Gabbard isn’t regarded as well as Lester or Buckholz. Murphy and Beltre don’t equal Ellsbury.
If you can get Boston to give you both ML ready SP in Lester and Buckholz, plus a starting CF, and say 1 of the two — lowrie or Masterson. I would think in the long run that will be better then any two trades done separatly. Quality of quantity will always be better
BFE, if the Twins could have convinced the Sox to put both Ellsbury and Lester in the deal, I wouldnt have spent the past 3 months in here talking about this trade because it would have been done.
And Clay Bucholtz is not available… which is fine with me because he is a douchbag… I like to cheer for interesting people.
I don”t think offering another player to the mix is holding a trade. It is called negotiating and negotiating..
What is your best offer????
Met’s will get him at least agree to a trade of 5 players:
3 of the 5 will not be on a major league roster.
Win Twin!
Bucholtz is not being traded even in a deal for Santana AND Nathan. The Sox pen is solid enough with Papelbon, Okajima, Timlin etc. They see Buccholz as a major part of their future.
Mark — MY BAD!!! I forgot all about Haren being moved.
I still think you could get Bedard depending on what you do with Santana.
An including Nathan to Boston would get you the most in the long run. He won’t bring what people are thinking — which team in the race will need a closer
The Gagne situation isn’t that comparable as it just so happened he had a no trade clause and the 3 teams most interested… Sox, Yankees, Mets all already had closers and thus didn’t want to give up a TON of value. But a team like the Cubs or even the Dbacks at the deadline would likely give up 2 real good prospects for Nathan.
im not so sure losing Santana and Craig in the same day/week is a good thing… .i may need therapy……….
if the yanks are out of it, just tell bill smith to whisper the words red sox, and all of a sudden , the yanks come crawling back.
Maybe the twins should just trade Nathen if he is worth so much and use his money to sign Santana.
or trade with the red sox, just to piss them off, either way i’ll be happy.
I say keep Santana. There hasn’t been a good offer on the table yet for the best pitcher in baseball. Keep him and twins win it all next year if Francisco is healthy. Use the two draft picks we get for losing Santana, is better then the garbage we have been offered!!!
Two draft picks are NOT better than the worst offer.
Two draft picks are CRAP!!!
Mets fans get a clue it will take every single PROSPECT you have to get the best pitcher in baseball. If not say hello to the first place braves again.
Two draft picks are Matt Moses and Denard Span.
That doesn’t compare to any ONE of Lester, Hughes, Ellsbury, FMart, Gomez, Guerra, Melky, Crisp, whoever.
Find me a writer or FO guy from any team who thinks draft picks are better.
I will take the two draft picks if it gets us the 2008 World Series Champion.
It could be that the Angels might be interested in adding ACE now that Seattle looks like they bested them.
Lester, what has he shown yet? Hughes is injury prown. Ellsbury one month wonder who really knows? FMart can you say Ricky Leedee? Gomez can’t hit a ball that doesnt come in straight. Do you get my point yet? If a team wants Santana give us your best and all of it. No more of if u take this guy you don’t get this other guy. We want ALL.
I wish people would stop stressing Johan as the “best pitcher in baseball”, stated in such a way as to presume that we should get equal talent back. That ignores the major impact of the financial situation. We can ignore it all we like, but for all teams involved (the Twins and all others) it simply is a huge part of the equation.
Slevrball - I understand the point you made in reply to my earlier post. And what you say about the exclusive window is where the value in the deal lies. However, that value is still relatively small because of two factors: 1. the risk of injury, with huge money tied up in one player, and 2. the value of what you could obtain for your team with the $25M per year you’d be paying Santana. So the Mets would be giving up all their young players, PLUS whatever they could obtain instead with the $25M per year.
Mark - Thanks for posting the article by Vince Gennaro. Very interesting. And with his credentials we have to take his analysis very seriously. I’d be interested, though, in how he calculates the financial value to the Mets as being $40M per year. That strikes me as dubious. I’m not contradicting it, just wondering how he calculates it, and if others would calculate it differently.
It certainly doesn’t take into account the value that might be obtained by paying $25M to other guys that would provide an equal $25M in value. Nor does it take into account the long range value that would be provided by the prospects becoming stars someday, or the loss of value if Santana were to get hurt or not lead the Mets to win the World Series.
Chad… well lets see Lester won game 4 of the World Series… does that count? If you think that teams are going to hand over all of their prospects, you havent been paying attention for the past 3 months.
Make me laugh Dennis, New York teams worried about financial situation. New York teams are the major reason most teams can’t afford to keep their own talent. They overpay in free agency to get what they want. You want him now give up the prospects, if not it will be a bidding war next year. I doubt anyone will be worried about finances then.
John Lackey isn’t a bad pitcher and qualifies as an ace… nor is Kelvim Escobar. Jaret Weaver is good andErvin Santana has promise. Angels also have Jon Garland..
Angels are heavy in pitching… It’s hitters they want, hence Torii Hunter.
Chad,
You aint getting half of what you want or think your team deserves for Johan Santana.
And besides, the Yanks hopefully will keep “injury prone” Phil Hughes.
Thank you and Good night..
I have been paying attention the reason he hasnt moved yet is because teams are not handing over the prospects. That is fine with me I would rather see Johan back with Twins. by the way, that one game for Lester does not mean he is that good.
Chad - Actually, both the Yankees and Red Sox are indeed worried about the financial situation. I’ve read several inside accounts that say that Hal Steinbrenner very much wants to get the salary under control. At the same time Cashman doesn’t want to trade the young guys. Theo Epstein feels the same way in both respects. I don’t know about the Mets. They might possibly feel differently because they need Santana so badly. Both the Yankees and Red Sox feel comfortable with Hughes, Joba, Buchholz, Lester, etc.
We might WANT these teams to give us exactly what we want, but that’s not going to happen. If your theory were correct, all these teams would have leaped at the chance by now. Imagine, getting the best pitcher in baseball! But none have done so. And why? Because the finances matter, and losing the prospects matters.
What happens at 6:00? Do all of you guys come from the bar drunk and pumped up. It seems like you guys start spewing allot of crap that has been covered before.
We need Bucholtz and Lester and Ellsbury and Ortiz back or we keep the “best picter in baseball’!!!!! + masterson + lowrie + bowden + lars anderson. He is the BEST PITCHER IN BASEBALL
I can’t remember did Les Straker win a world series game for the twins in 87.
Chad - Two scenarios:
1. We keep Santana, and finish 3rd in the division because Detroit and Cleveland are so good. We lose Johan for draft picks. We then finish 3rd or 4th for several years.
2. We trade Santana to the Mets. We finish 3rd this year, or possibly 4th. But with the money saved from Johan we sign a couple of high quality free agents next year and finish 2nd. By 2010 Martinez is a coming star, Pelfrey is our #2 or #3 guy, Guerra is a rookie looking a bit like Santana in the early years. We go on a run of 4 division titles in five years, with two World Series titles.
Neither scenario is far fetched. And if the second even came close to coming true you’d happily give up watching Santana lead the Twins to a 3rd place finish this year.
What’s this I hear about the Mets possibly holding Carlos Gomez out of the Caribbean Series? Trade winds blowing??? (Finally…?)
John Lackey, Kelvim Escobar, Jerrod Weaver and Ervin Santana, I dont know if they match up with Seattles staff now that they got Beddard.
When have the twins ever gone out and signed someone elses high quality free agent Dennis? Just sayin i would keep him and hope maybe twins can win it this year with a healthy Francisco.
The negotiating in the press means very little. Who knows what the real offers have been. The Sox & Yanks WILL HAVE TO GIVE UP MORE THAN THE METS or another NL team because there is value in getting Johan to NL. If Johan goes into bidding war NEXT year, he could end up with an AL team & Twins will have to face him for years. IF we can control his move to NL team, to me that is like getting ANOTHER PROSPECT in the trade.
rpb - Speaking for myself, I’m still working. About to go to the gym, then home by 8:30.
Obviously, my comments about not referring constantly to Santana as the BEST PITCHER IN BASEBALL had the opposite effect on you. Which is fine. However, I’d like you to explain why what I said is not true. In other words, why should the immense financial obligation to Santana not be a factor for these other teams, especially combined with the amount of talent needed to be traded, plus the $25M in salary that could be spend elsewhere? Seriously, I’m open to an alternate view. But just saying he’s the best pitcher in baseball doesn’t answer the question.
rephraise that Dennis high quality free agent not from Minnesota
Gman,
Bedard and Felix Hernandez make a good one-two punch.. then Seattle prays for rain with Silva, Jarod Washburn, Horacio Ramirez. Maybe Silva has some punch..
I dont think the Angels take a back seat to Seattle.
Lavelle
Do the twin have any interest in Kriz Benson. I know they almost traded for him in the past.
Veteran Presence?
coco,
Somewhat…yes…although Johan has only made eight career regular season starts vs. the Yankees. Pretty surprising.
It sure would suck to see him in the post-season, though. Send him to the NL!
Long time reader, first time writer. I do not want the the young Mets. I have seen Lester, I have seen Ellsbury. They are both legit Major Leaguers. It has to be one of those packages.
Johan Santana being the best pitcher in baseball means the price is too high for most teams to trade for him. Most teams dont have the talent and those that do may not want to pay the price.
Add to the price in players and the future, 140-150M over 6-7 years. Santana is too good and the Twins will never get full value..
That’s why the Yanks and Red Sox are shying off.. the Angels never became players and Seattle went for Bedard..
Chad - Very good question. My answer is that we’ve entered a very new world with Bill Smith. I’ve said all along that he was a well thought out long range plan. And everything he’s done so far has perfectly fit that plan. The Morneau and Cuddyer signings are part of that plan.
Jim Pohlad reiterated just yesterday the team’s commitment to spending 50-55% of revenue on player salaries. They’ve done that for several years, and plan to continue that. With the new stadium the revenues will increase, and so will the salaries. Pohlad is committed to that. Bill Smith’s long range plan is within that framework. Without $25M going to Santana next year I am confident that he will sign one or more impact free agents.
So far Smith has lived up to our expectations, and he’s definitely doing things differently than TR. I see no reason why he wouldn’t continue down the new path.
If Twins trade Johan & save payroll vs. signing him, I don’t see the Twins EVER signing high profile free agents. They just don’t believe in it. More likely I can see them making trades for payroll dump young MLB players. For example getting Crisp to play center.
With Kris Benson comes Anna Benson and no team wants that egomanical headache for .500 pitcher.
Bedard, Hernandez, Washburn, Batista and Silva sounds pretty good to me.
BFE,
The main question is why are you talking about the twins like they are ready to contend now? Keep johan and trade for bedard? you must be on crack. For the twins to acquire bedard they would have to give up so many players they would end up with a 4 man rotation due to lack of players.
I realize this is a twins site, but I would like to point out that your looking at this the wrong way. Its not what would it take for the twins to pull the trigger, its what do teams have to offer to have the best deal on the table. Either way santana gets traded so the mets will NOT give up both OFers and my guess FMart wont be included… I am guessing
Church, Gomez, Mulvey, Humber, Heilmann
That way you get your MLB ready players in Heilmann and Church and high level prospects in Gomez and Mulvey with Humber realistically being a B level player. Although last time i saw he had a fastball of 92-94 and his best pitch was his curveball. He must have no third pitch or he would be in the bigs already. But he does have good upside.
Dennis,
My apologies. I was generalizing. I did not mean to include you. I agree with your point.
It seems that when we reach a level of depth to the discussion, some yammerhead jumps on and asks for “all prospects from all teams”. I got a little frustrated. My apologies.
Dennis have to see it to believe it. I do think Bill is showing a riskier side then TR
I guess nobody cares about Carlos Gomez being pulled from the Caribbean World Series…
Ho-hum…
Twinkie,
Where does that info come from?
rpb - Oops. When I re-read your post I see you were obviously being sarcastic. I kind of skimmed right past the David Ortiz inclusion, which should have been the tipoff.
Gman,
The Seattle staff sounds good — but so does the Angels - John Lackey, Kelvim Escobar, Jerrod Weaver and Ervin Santana
Lackey won 19 last year and Escobar had a break-out season with 18 wins; Jerrod Weaver can pitch. Santana had bad year after two good seasons, but he’s got a live arm
And as much as Hernandez has all the talent to be great, he hasn’t shown it yet. Escobar took several years to blossom.
And Bedard has had one good season and one very good season last year.
Batista is 37 years old this year… Will he be 16-8 again?
Impacto Deportivo (Spanish website) — they’ve broken a few stories this winter.
Mets Guy
Sorry to burst your bubble but if you are not throwing in F-Mart, it will need to be a package with Gomez AND Guerra for sure. Yea Right the Twins would never accept that package. I would much have either boston offer or a NY Yankee offer. As i said all along this is going to be the accepted offer:
Gomez/Church/Heilman/Pelfry/Guerra.
maybe no church in the deal, but at least the other four for sure or you can just not waste your time talking to Mr Smithy. You can keep your C level pitching prospects in Mulvey and Humber, the Twins do not want them or need them. Just Ellsbury would be better than that horrible offer of yours.
I will say that the story doesn’t mean a trade is coming, only that it’s unlikely the Mets will give permission for him to play in the Caribbean Series, for whatever reason…
Twinkie Pete,
His team probably pulled him because he cant hit a breaking ball. 
Tyler,
Here’s the problem for the Twins, as I see it. I could be wrong.
I don’t think there exists a New York Yankee offer with Philip Hughes included. I think the Twins will have to negotiate anew.
I don’t think there exists a Boston Red Sox offer with Jacoby Ellsbury. And I don’t know why the Red Sox would trade Jed Lowrie, considering they consider him their future shortstop in an aging infield. Lester and Materson, I can see t hey giving up..
So the Mets can dictate what players they want to include, to a certain degree. They can’t get too chinsy without the Twins saying, Take a Hike..
Delicacy time…
FOX is reporting that the Bedard trade is on hold and maybe off.
if the Bedard trade is off do you see Seattle making the same or a littel better ofer the the twins for johan i want adam jones to be a twin
roundabout
all offers are still on the table.
yanks “say” hughes is not in an offer, but thats was just a ploy to get the twins to accept the offer..
same with the sox
4 offers remain.. 2 from the sox, one from yanks and mets..
sox and mets offers are the same as they were during the winter meetings.
i mean seriously, who believes hank when he says hughes is off the table?
i wish the twins could get adam jones..
I’m curious as to why some people posting here say that the Yankees offer of Hughes, et al, and Red Sox offers of Lester and Ellsbury are off the table, when Lavelle stated information to the contrary. What makes some of you more knowledgeable of the portending Twins talk than a Strib writer.
Seriously though Mulvey a “high level prospect”, PLEASE. Mulvey MAYBE will be a #5 pitcher, and Humber will not be in MLB in three or four years. Even if the Red Sox and Yankee offers are slipping I would not accept that mets guys offer under any conditions. I would just take the two draft picks, rather than be bullyed into a horrible trade by the mets. SCREW THAT
TA
exactly, all offers are still in play..
Reezee posted something similar to this statement earlier today; some of the posters either speaking absolutes, or feel that 1.) their opinions are gospel while 2.) others’ opinions are completely invalid and downright incorrect…
Can someone help a brother out?
Carlos Gomez pulled from the upcoming Caribbean Series…. Twins fan/Minor League expert John Sickels gave Mulvey a B.
MH
Atleast with the RedSox, the Yankees may have pulled Hughes, but i doubt the RedSox have.
MH, that’s what I’m thinking as well; I mean, LENIII stated such…why should I believe some “fan” over a reputable Strib writer?
TA, Bill Madden (Daily News) said TODAY that the Yankees are 100% out unless they have a major injury to their rotation this spring.
“Carlos Gomez pulled from the upcoming Caribbean Series”
Are we supposed to think that because Gomez was pulled from the Caribbean Series that a trade with Gomez as one of the centerpieces is a virtual guarantee?
Metro
Pelfry has powerful stuff and could be top of the rotation material. Mulvey is nothing more than a #4 #5 starter, we have plenty of that in the Twins farm system, and would rather take a risk on Pelfry. Keep Mulvey AND Humber.
I presume Bill Madden is a NY Yankees beat writer, which would obviously make him more knowledgeable than me (duh). But why is LENIII making statements to the contrary? Perhaps one of the teams is feeding the respective beat writers misinformation. I understand trade talks, rumors, etc. to be somewhat cloak and dagger; that’s essentially the way the business seems to work.
Well unless every major sports news site is wrong i do not know how people in here can think that all trades are not in play.
I think with a Met deal involving someone like Pelfry, the Twins want someone that can step into the rotation immediately, not just a bunch of prospects that could potentially assist the ballclub a couple of years down the road (e.g. Guerra, Gomez, and/or Martinez).
I really hope that Gomez is not in the deal. Put me down for FMart. I think we need 2 outfielders, maybe BS thinks that Church and Gomez will do the job I do think the Twins need to make a deal instead of 2 picks
Perhaps it’s merely blind adherence on my part, but I’m going to believe Lavelle or Joe C. until I hear something to contrary that’s wholly and absolutely definitive.
unless it is both gomez and fmart
Hmm, Think the trade is going down? maybe it went down?
Or did Gomez get pulled because they think he may be in the offer?
Luke: I agree…I think Church would step right in and contend for a corner OF spot (perhaps sliding Delmon Young over to CF in the process). I think a Church, D. Young, and Cuddyer OF looks fairly respectable on paper…
TA, I have no clue when LEN3 or Madden got their information But the Madden appearing on TV earlier this afternoon said that Cashman has convinced Hank Steinbrenner to build from within and that unless Pettitte (specifically mentioning him) went down with an injury that the Yankees are 100% out on Santana even if the Sox are close to getting him.
my guess is that if gomez is in the deal, then the twins will be willing to accept church.
church can spell gomez in center for a game here or there.
if martinez is in the trade, then the twins have no need for church. cuz they will need to sign a everyday CF..
Just my opinion, but church will be involved in the deal if gomez is
gomez/church/guerra/mulvey ???
Newsday JUST Posted-With the Yankees and Red Sox all but out of the bidding, the Mets can continue to insist on holding onto outfield prospect Fernando Martinez, leaving their offer at outfielder Carlos Gomez and pitchers Deolis Guerra, Phil Humber and Kevin Mulvey. The Twins appear determined to trade Santana, rather than bring him into their camp.
Gomez not being allowed to play means that something is probably in the works, but by no means means a deal has been reached/will be reached. Adam Jones was pulled from his venezuelan league team earlier this winter but then went back to playing after not getting traded (obviously, that’s changed once again).
MH
Are you in favor of that trade?
That’s from Ken Davidoff, posted at 9:05 Eastern from NY Newsday
I’m curious to know what the consensus is for Mets pitchers…would we rather have Pelfry, Humber, or Mulva (er, I mean Mulvey; Seinfeld episode)…I know it’s been bandied about…but I can’t remember what everyone said.
tyler
gomez/pelfrey/guerra/church?
No, I am not in favor of that trade..
i say forget church, forget pelfrey. trading johan means we will not win this year.. IMO
guerra/gomez/mulvey/lagares/garcia
take 5 kids. couple pitchers, couple infielders
thats my opinion.. take some kids that are a few years off, because thats what the twins will be.
That’s cool Metro. I respect the fact that you brought sources to the table and cited a newstory. What I won’t accept is when someone states irrevocably something he/she thinks is fact when it’s merely their opinion.
MH, TA,
It is hard for any of us to know what is on the table (now or previously). Buster Olney reported that the Bosox had pulled Lester. Who knows what the reality is?
LaVelle has sources with the Twins, but it is certainly in the Twins interest to maintain that all parties are still interested. If BS wants the Mets and Yanks to sweat, you better still have the Bosox best offer on the table.
While the offers may still be there, prevailing opinion (SI, FOX, ESPN) is that maybe BS waited too long. Who knows? There is so much spin and hype.
What is the age differece between Pelfry and Mulvey? Aren’t they around the same age? And doesn’t only one of them have the stuff to be a top 3 pitcher?
ta
pelfrey for me
He may have waited too long, unless BS is holding out hope that an opposing team may require Santana’s services, unexpectedly (i.e. injury, sub-par start from pitchers within said rotation)…
Well it looks like Seattle’s deal for Bedard or someone is on. Both Jones and Sherrill are supposed to take physicals tomorrow. Would me a nice change of events if somehow Santana got moved to Seattle.
Anywhere but the Mets. Not one of the prospects is worthy of Santana. The Yanks with either Hughes, Kennedy or Joba are all better. RedSox either Lester or Ellsbury package are better then the Mets.
Pelfry for me too by the way. (just in case any one was wondering).
Metro2008– do you have a link on that Ken Davidoff?
Amen BFE, Amen
I would be fine with a package of prospects, just not with the ones the Mets are reportedly offering
http://www.impactodeportivo.com.do/?op=displaystory&story_id=2067&format=html
Gomez wasnt “pulled” (meaning, he wasnt sent home) he was not given permission to play- there is no word if that has been the plan the whole time or if it is recent news.
LEN3’s column states the Yanks have not pulled out of a trade. It does not state that Hughes is still on the table.
Pelfry has composure issues. the exact reason the Twins were willing to trade Garza.
If we are stuck with the Mets as a trading partner, I would prefer a couple class A players nobody but our scouts have a bead on.
BFE,
Totally agree. No ways the Mets offer is comparable without both Gomez and Fmart + Guerra (I still don’t see his upside) + 1 other (pelfrey, mulvey, etc).
So who do the twin fans out here think they should get for Santana realistically?
this is what a mets fan said earlier
The low level guys you should be looking at are juan lagares, francisco pena, bobby parnell, jon niese, scott moviel, or nate vineyard (the last two would have to be players to be named later). If you’re looking to add guys to the package, get rid of mulvey and humber and try to grab a bunch of guys who are a long way off with huge upside and pray they pan out.
Scott
Mets- Gomez,Pelfry,Guerra,Heilman
Yankees-Hughes,Melky,Tabata
RedSox-Ellsbury,Masterson,Lowrie,Bowden
I’d take Pelfrey, then Mulvey, then Humber.
I agree with that Mets fan… Humber and Mulvey are garbage
realistically
if martinez is not in the deal
i think the twins should attempt to get
5 prospects
gomez/guerra and 3 others
take the risk with low A players
There’s about .01 percent chance the Sox will trade Ellsbury.
Scott
1 percent??? the red sox have been offering him for mounths!!! What are some ESPN writter or something? There are no reports he has been pulled of the table.
realistically the Twins will probably trade with the RedSox and take the Crisp, Lester,and hope to get Lowrie.
This at least fills the defensive CF hole and possible lead off. Hope Lester can be a #2 at least and Lowrie grows into what everyone raves about.
Smith better hope that Liriano comes back as the “Franchise”
There is a .01 percent chance the RedSox will trade Buccholz, maybe that is who you meant to say.
“Scott says:
January 28th, 2008 at 8:38 pm
There’s about .01 percent chance the Sox will trade Ellsbury.”
How do you know this? What makes you qualified state such an assertion? Back it up…
Tyler, I heard it from a friend who covers the team on a regular basis.
Oh god (rolling eyes)…now I’m convinced.
Scott
HAHAHAHA, and i heard from a friend who i have deep connections with that you are a loser who wants to pretend he has friends in high places. Please give me a break. “I heard it from a friend” what an absolute loser”.
Plus Theo Epstein is very serious about keeping their spects and building from within. He has said this from the day he was hired as the GM.
Thankyou Scott for your convincing report. Im sorry for calling you a loser, Im sure your friend is Mr.Theo himself huh?
That’s what I’m talking about; someone making a claim, without a reputable, credible source as FACT when it’s either absolute conjecture or just his opinion.
Scott, did he say that to your friend?
Tyler, I could give a rats ass if you believe me or not. Do you need to stoop so low as to call me a loser. Are you that immature?
I apologized Scott
He has been saying it for years. Do I need to back this up?
Of course every GM wants to keep their prospects, that means nothing of relevance.
From the Newsday article:
“With the Yankees and Red Sox all but out of the bidding, the Mets can continue to insist on holding onto outfield prospect Fernando Martinez, leaving their offer at outfielder Carlos Gomez and pitchers Deolis Guerra, Phil Humber and Kevin Mulvey. The Twins appear determined to trade Santana, rather than bring him into their camp.”
I do not see any sourced news there, only speculation that the Yankees and Red Sox are “all but out of the bidding.”
That contridicts the only quote he has: “Everybody was floating their cards around the table,” a person plugged into the Mets’ thinking said Monday, on the condition of anonymity. “Now they’re going to have to put them on the table. We’ll just go from there.”
Who is “everybody” if there is only one team bidding?
Tyler,
I don’t believe that Hughes and Tabata were ever in the same deal. The Yanks were reluctant to deal Hughes , Melky, Marquez, Hilligoss.
The Mets offer Gomez,Pelfry,Guerra,Heilman is weak. It is probably available. If the RedSox offer Ellsbury,Masterson,Lowrie,Bowden, take it. Ellsbury is probably overrated (consistently good, not great) very good leadoff hitter. The three prospects are better than the Mets offer
Trust me. He means it. No problem Tyler. Apology accepted. I apologize as well.
RPB
I know that hughes and tabata have not been offered, but that is just what i want, and the Twins want for an accepted deal
Also i do not believe Gomez,Pelfry,Guerra,Heilman is weak at all. It is a decent deal, but i agree with you Ellsbury,Masterson,Lowrie,Bowden is probable the better deal of the two, but not by all that much.
Well here is to hoping that I can’t believe I am saying it but getting COCO. From what it is sounding like the best package out there would have to be the one with Lester. If you at least get Crisp who is playable. Then you get 2 ready guys. Adding in Lowrie and Masterson would be hopeful.
Taking Crisp and Lester is better for the Twins then just getting Ellsbury.
Either RedSox deal is better then the Mets offer though.
Pelfry is the only thing close to ML ready
Hawk,
Interesting questions. One I’ve comment on previously with Mr. LENS. He keeps saying the Twins and Yankees keep in contact, though he never uses the word talking (as in negotiating). Yanks say they have no offer on the table, yet LENS never tells you guys if the Tiwns know if Hughes is still in the deal. Interesting coverage.
RyanW,
If you don’t know who ‘everybody’ is, bow can it contradict the speculation that the Yanks and Red Sox have packed up their offers? Everybody could mean the Mets and Twins..
And other commentators have said the Yanks and Red Sox are out of the bidding, though your guy LENS keeps saying they remain in “contact.”
On Bedard, the report says the Angelos is holding up the deal and might nix it. If he nixes this one, he would be sure to nix the Mets deal. The Orioles are set to get more than the the Twins would in the rumored Mets deal.
Mulvey is nothing more than a #4 #5 starter
Lots of evidence suggests that Mulvey was exceedingly unlucky last year in AA. He had a 55% GB rate and a 3.16 FIP. But like all the Mets prospects, it’s hard to project Mulvey. The Mets sent Mulvey straight to AA out of college, where he held his own (59% GB rate, 3.72 FIP in limited innings.)
By comparison, the Twins sent Kevin Slowey to the Appy league out of college, where he earned a promotion to low A. Then he went from High A to AA the following year. And that was rushing him for the Twins. At the same age and level, Slowey had a 40% GB% and a 3.44 FIP.
You guys won’t take my opinion at face value because I am a Mets fan but I think Hughes truly IS off the table.
DickyBuzz
Cashman has said he doesnt want to trade for Santana, unless the Twins ask for less..
I think that means Hughes is off the table. He didnt mention names.
Theo and Cash did an event a couple of days ago. From he transcript, it sounds like both the Sox and Yanks are cool to Santana.
I can not believe that the Mets will get Santana with their weak (not close to MLB ready) prospects.
I read the Orioles deal was Jones, Tillman and Sherrill (a 31 year old old lefty reliever) …. Jones is fantastic and Tillman is a pretty good prospect but in no way is that more then Gomez, Guerra, Pelfrey and Humber… furthmore… Santana is better then Bedard, no way around it but Bedard also has 2 years left at LOW money meaning MANY teams can afford him thus jacking up his potential price.
Fine with me if Hughes if off the table. Personally think he is overrated and is a little injury prone. RedSox is the better deal.
If Angelos truly kills the Bedard deal. What stops the Mariners from trying to jump into the Santana talks?
roundie… I like you, I really do… but you need to stop calling LEN3 “LENS.” It discredits you in a place where many of us respect La Velle.
Just curious… as much as everyone thinks they are an expert… don’t you think it is 100% conceivable that if this same website were given the list of packages for AJ Pierzynski that MANY of you would have chosen one FAR less then the vaunted package you guys ended up getting? What I am saying is, sometimes you really have to trust the scouts.
Metro- I dont doubt that Hughes is currently “off the table.” I just dont think any baseball fan with a brain thinks that Hank means anything he says.
Off the table tonight, does not mean off the table tomorrow. Hank knows it will take Hughes and has already said that he expects the Twins to check back with him before they make a move.
Ryan,
LEN3 it is .. .He still hasn’t answer the question of what contact means and if Hughes is still in the deal. Now, don’t you want to know that answer from him? You don’t believe what the Yanks say or what the press here in NY-NJ or at ESPN says, apparently
It is good to see Gomez and Sidney Ponson are on the same Dominican league team.
RyanW,
Insulting Hamlet Hank isn’t going to gain you credibility. Cashman says he doesn’t want to trade the kids and Hal Steinbrenner - equal partner with Hank - doesnt want to pay Santana.
That sounds like 2 against one. You seem to conveniently put everything on Hank Steinbrenner, forgetting the other two and other voices in the Yankees.
This is not the Boss running the show.
I DID NOT see this myself but supposedly on the Twins board on mlb.com they are claiming Olney said the Angels have made a bit…. I have no clue if its true.
Good article on Sox prospects talked about by Calis
http://soxprospects.blogspot.com/2008/01/interview-with-baseball-americas-jim.html
With Ponson pitching, Gomez probably got a lot of exercise running in the outfield. or a stiff neck from jerking his head around to watch the ball clear the fence.
Metro- I agree with you again. The Twins have a proven track record of being excellent scouts of other farm teams. Maybe that is why I am at ease about any of the deals that have been floated. I prefer Martinez, but if the Twins scouts think Gomez will be the real deal… I will conceed to their judgement.
If the Twins are selecting 5 prospects out of any system… I like their chances of comming out on top in the long run.
That’s very interesting Metro, if anyone has a link to that please post it here.
I can see the Angels making a deal… think about it, IF the Yankees and Red Sox lessen their deals, it would make sense for them to jump in… besides, rememeber the Hunter signing came out of nowhere.
And if Seattle pulls Bedard, they have pressure to improve their starting staff…
That said, I am not a huge Reggie Wiltis guy.
Ryan, im just saying…. we can all claim to think we know what’s what but “can’t miss” guys become busts, “nothing” prospects become players (see Jason Bay or even Johan Santana). I prefer Martinez to Gomez, I think at least 50% of the Mets site prefers Gomez.
Scott- big trade today… David Ardsama…
God, hitters will punish him at Fenway. I am going to miss watching him throw stright cheese for the White Sox… just pray he never is in when you have a lead.
this is from the mlb.com twins site for what it is worth.
Just reported on Sportscenter by Buster Olney:
“Surprisingly, the deal does NOT include Weaver, yet two promising pitchers. Adenhart, Wood, Willits, M Brown and E Santana have been leaked as the pieces reportedly offered. Completing this deal will make the LA Angels an incredible threat in any playoff series for the next few years.”
Haven’t found anything out there to prove this is legit
Here is a link to the supposed Angels offer…. looks fake to me as it was the guys first post and my friend said he watched sportscenter and didn’t see anything of the sort
http://www.forums.mlb.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=1&nav=messages&webtag=ml-twins&tid=28376
I’ve always posted that the Angels do have the best major league ready youngsters - chone figgins, howie kendricks, casey kotchman, brendon woods reggie willits, ervin santana, jared weaver
Maybe a 2-1 deal -pitcher and hitter
I really like Adenhart and Wood… hmm, I could come around on Wiltis
What’s that 7 or 5 players for Santana
I read the Orioles deal was Jones, Tillman and Sherrill
I read is included Morrow and another prospect as well. Perhaps that was just speculation over at Sickels. But that was what the deal I was referring to.
Aardsma throws straight cheese… yet he stinks.
i need a stronger link then that
but it wouldnt surprise me with the angels stepping in..
damn willitz, who wants him? Not ME!
gary matthews? eh, ridiculous contract. but a nice CF option..
I have to see it to believe it… there is a lot of garbage posted in blogs…
I can now confirm the Angels rumored rumor lol is false… I had Sportscenter on DVR, skipped through it, Olney not only did not say that… he wasn’t even on… Furthermore the guy who posted it was posting his first message ever on the Twins site and his name on the site was “Reagins” as in an Angels fan… Tony Reagins is there GM.
A Bedard to Seattle deal would absolutely put the heat on the Angels, right?
Straight Cheese- straight as in his fastball dosnt move, cheese as in hitters take a big bite out of it.
Not a complement.
As for just reported on Sportscenter by Buster Olney:
On ESPN Oklahoma state is leading Oklahoma with 11 minutes to play in second half. on ESPN 2 I get Football highlights..
Sportscenter comes on after the Oklahoma game..
So call me skeptical
while we are at it, don’t the angels need a big time first baseman?
heck, i think we might have one of them also!
I thought maybe he liked Ronald and Nancy Reagan…
The Angels are looking for a big hitter.
Angles have Casey Kotchman.. good glove and bat..
The Seattle Times in confirming that Adam Jones told a Venezuelan paper on Sunday that he was being traded to the Orioles, and an Orioles source told the Baltimore Sun that Jones was scheduled for a physical Monday in Baltimore.
Those plans changed, probably because the Orioles still hadn’t gotten approval from Peter Angelos. Jones later changed his story, saying he didn’t tell anyone he had been traded and was going to Baltimore for a physical, but that’s almost certainly what the Mariners told him to say. The Times’ Geoff Baker heard the audio recording that confirmed Jones’ quotes from Sunday. All indications are that the Bedard deal is in the hands of Angelos, but that Angelos had something else to do today and wasn’t ready to give the thumbs up or down.
Source: Seattle Times
Related: Adam Jones, Mariners
Erik Bedard-S-Orioles Jan. 28 - 6:09 pm et
Adam Jones remains in Venezuela and said he told the Venezuelan press nothing about a trade to the Orioles, though he did admit that the Mariners insisted he sit out winter league games for now.
The Mariners probably just wanted to plug the leak. There have been several indications that the deal sending Erik Bedard to Seattle needs only Orioles owner Peter Angelos’ approval, plus physcials for the players involved. That doesn’t necessarily mean Angelos won’t kill the trade, as he has several deals before. But it appears the GMs are in agreement.
Source: KOMO 1000 Radio
could have been on espn news, espn classic, espn 2, espn U
heck, they could of had a news update and olney came on.
i doubt it.. but its possible
Casey Kotchman or Justin Morneau?
Morneau!!
I think the Angels report is a hoax… but I wouldnt be surprised if they do jump in late…
MH,
Morneau with the bat; not with the glove.
the OPS for 2007 was Morneau at 121 and Kotchman at 119. it was Kotchman’s first big year.. He didnt match Morneau in RBI and HRs but had a superior OBA, not overly great.
the angels were rumored to be going after Konerko?!?!
hmm, dang, i just want the johan saga to end..
but i want the twins to get the best deal they can.
and i want spring training to start
If Bedard going to Seattle scares the Angels, maybe.. I think the Angels pitching is as good if not better even if Seattle gets Bedard.
Angels have surplus..
The Angels need a bat
Below is from http://www.rotoworld.com source Atlanta Journal-Constitution
The Braves have reportedly asked the Angels about center fielder Reggie Willits.
The Angels are without any obvious needs right now, but as crowded as their outfield is, they could part with Willits or Juan Rivera for a prospect or two. That’s likely what they were talking to the Twins about on Monday.
Don’t know it if makes sense for the Twins to trade for Willits unless they are signing Santana or there is something else in the mix.
Another bat would be nice, but not necessary for the Angels..
Vlad, Kotchman, Hunter, Figgins, Kendricks, Garrett Anderson.. (plus Matthews and Willits) .. And Brandan Wood .. all can hit.. They may be slightly short on power..
Just remember Seattle was willing to give up more for Bedard, because he is two years away from free agency. A team will pay more for a guy if they have to pay him less money. A guy like Santana that will get $ 20 million a year is less valuable to teams in a trade then a player they have to pay big money, too. Santana may be a better pitcher than Bedard, but he has less value, because of the money one must pay Santana.
So I am working with my limited spanish and cross referencing it with some translation sites… it appears that Gomez was selected by ANOTHER Dominican league team Licey Tigers… he was on a team called the Lions…
Is this like town team baseball where a team that makes a series can select a few players from teams that do not make it?
If so, I guess I could see where the Mets would just tell Gomez to not play extended games after his team was eliminated… even if he wasnt being dealt, but for sure if you think he might be part of a deal.
The Angels really don’t need Santana except for the playoffs. to battle Detroit, Cle, NYY, or Boston. An hitting wise I don’t see what they need.
Would be nice if they and/or Seatlle somehow got in the mix.
John Heymanof Sports Illustrated
Theories on the Santana delay
One competing executive opined that Twins GM Bill Smith may be “scared” to pull the trigger on a Johan Santana deal, in that talks have dragged for months, and others are hinting at similar sentiments. “He was outdone by Billy Beane, who went out and grabbed the players he wanted,” another executive said, speaking of the A’s trade of Danny Haren to the Arizona for several top prospects.
Smith is a rookie on the job. But it may be too early to blame him for not taking the less than eye-catching offers of the Red Sox and others and holding out for more for perhaps baseball’s best pitcher. It was logical for him to retain some hope that even though the Yankees appear to have retreated in these talks in recent weeks, there still may be a chance for new Yankees boss Hank Steinbrenner to change course and go harder for Santana. Hank’s done it before.
The Mets’ prospect-heavy proposal of outfielder Carlos Gomez and pitchers Deolis Guerra, Phil Humber and Kevin Mulvey is solid but may be no better than the Boston packages leading with pitcher Jon Lester or outfielder Jacoby Ellsbury. Should the Mets enhance their bid by adding outfield prospect Fernando Martinez, who’s only 19, the Twins are likely to go for it. But to this point, the Mets are reluctant to add Martinez.
There is no advantage to him playing. The Twins know what they know about him, playing 4-5 more games only adds to the chance of him getting hurt.
Heyman’s article is from yesterday (or much earlier today)
Bedard has one year of being cheap. Next offseason, the team that has him will be in the same boat the Twins are in now… pay him a boatload of money, deal him, or watch him walk.
Ryan that may be true but one would figure Bedard would take significantly less then 22-23 million that Santana is going to get right now (especially considering Bedard’s injury history) I think he could be locked up to a 5 year deal with 15 or so million.
Smith wasnt “scared” to trade significant talent (2 starters and a top prospect) to land Delmon Young. He has been a top assistant to Terry Ryan, and the rest of the Twins inner circle has been together for a long time. They know what they are doing.
I have a hard time believing that he is scared. Stubborn? Maybe.
So his injury history makes him more attractive because it’ll cost less money to sign him? I don’t think that’s true. Also, based on his quotes this offseason, he strikes me as the type who won’t settle for any less than market value. Granted, that’s just my opinion, so it’s not worth much.
I think Bedard would be more likely to accept a deal now at a good 5+ million less then Santana.
Metro, true… although he could argue he is better than Barry Zito.
And he would be right. I bet he would get more than 15 in the open market… Carlos Silva got 12 per for 4 years.
All it takes is a dumb GM (Zito’s contract is a perfect example) all I meant was…. if I am Bedard, and I realize my injury history…. and a team offers me 15-17 million per for 5 years, OR I can wait 2 seasons and try and get 20, but possibly not get anything at all if I get hurt Ill take the guarantee.
I guess as a Twins fan I can take solice in the statement “all it takes is a dumb GM”
Lets hope we find one soon so I can go to bed on time…
That said, I am out… nice chatter tonight, it helped me get through one of the worst State of the Unions I have ever seen… at least it is his last…
MJ1 - line of the day……..
im not so sure losing Santana and Craig in the same day/week is a good thing… .i may need therapy……….
And Straker would have won a WS game if Kelly wouldn’t have pulled him for Sr. Smoke in the 7th……
Ya mean I missed Dubya… Oy
ESPN teasers till reporting Bedard deal as a go.. and nothing on Angels.. Be good
you want to know whats frustrating?
when does MLB 08 The show come out?
Going to have to trade Johan! geesh
If I were Minaya, I would tell Gomez to sit. The risk of an injury scuttling the possible deal at this stage outweighs any benefit to him playing by more than I can calculate.
early march it comes out! im excited lol
Angelos now wants to sign Bedard to a 5 year extension, so the trade is probably off, unless he is trying to squeeze another player out of the deal.
MH
I’m still not buying another baseball game until EA sports is allowed to make a baseball game again. They do sports games so much better than anyone else.
Kind of unrelated, but great article on the 2008 Phillies team. It picks the Mets to win division though, with possible assistance of Johan.
http://mlbfleecefactor.com/2008/01/28/2008-philadelphia-phillies-looking-to-take-next-step/
Lets say that we get a Hughes/Cabrera/Horne deal from the Yankees. You know that it is possible that two years from now this team is better with Delmon Young and Phil Hughes than with Torii and Johan. I really believe that Young is going to become a type of dynamic player that Torii could never become. Torii’s defense was outstanding, but even now his offensive capability is not close to Delmon’s ceiling. Now bare with me on the Hughes and Santana arguement. We all know that JOhan is the best pitcher in baseball, BUT WHAT IF Hughes can become a top 10 to 15 type pitcher. We have to trade Santana and we have no choice in the matter. If you can replace him with one of the most potential laden arms in the big leagues that would not be a bad result. Liriano and Hughes could be one of the most dynamic one-two punches in MLB. I really believe that many of the Yankees internal personal are worried that Hughes could become a great pitcher. If we could aquire him along with a young and decent CF (Cabrera) and another young arm (Horne) that would be a decent result. I think we need to hurry because if Baltimore really only gets JOnes straight up for Bedard that could spell serious trouble for our offers. I like the idea of the abundance of talent from the METS (4 players) and the tremendous potential of Martinez who could team with and eventually replace the loss of one of Morneau,Mauer,Young. Although the future of Martinez or Gomez is far less of a sure thing than Hughes. He has shown his ability last year and I saw him dominate for a few of those 20 starts. He is by far the most talented player being offered to us. Ellsbury and Lester are not enough talent to headline their own deals. Only together is that suitable deal from the Red Sox. Theo is not going to do that, so this tells us it is down to the Yankees and the Mets. It really comes down to two things. One, do you want to take a chance on potential superstardom for a 19 year old or potential all-star capability of a more proven 22 year old starter? Two, how important is it to get Johan out of the already insanely competative American League? We all remember those yearly meetings between the Yankees and Twins in the first round of the playoffs a few years ago. Do the Twins really want to potentially have to face Johan every postseason to try and get to the world series?
Well if Angelos scuttles the deal we got our on dumb owner out of the way. Now we need a dumb GM move to step to the plate. Or maybe another dumb owner move..come one Hank you can do it.
Zach-
The issue with what your saying is that Hughes is no longer on the table nor is Lester.
Minaya would be the dumb GM you are counting on. Hank has been out ruled by Cashman & his brother,
*Hal Steinbrenner that is*
If neither of them are on the table keep Santana this year and get the two #1 picks next year. At least we can enjoy Santana for another year. An see what him and Liriano can do.
We would then have 4 #1s from losing Torri and Johan. Which is about the same as the Mets 4 player offer and back to hoping young prospects turn out.
Keeping Santana is moronic unless you have a possible championship team. The Twins do not. Two future first round pick is far more ridiculous than taking the equal to 4 more proven first round picks from the Mets.
I would love the Twins to keep him, I’m a Yankee fan &the thought of him joining the Blow Sox makes my skin crawl. I do think a month ago, Hughes could have been a Twin.
The best package to be competative this year is Lester/Crisp/Lowrie/Masterson. Lester fills Johan’s spot in the rotation fairly decently and Crisp plays an adequate CF while giving us a lead off hitter. The Mets deal gives us the most potential for the future with Martinez or Gomez/Guerra/Pelfrey/Humber. Martinez could become a Manny Ramierez or Carlos Beltran type talent. Then again he could become Wily Mo Pena. We also would get an abundance of arms for the future. Finally, the Yankees deal is the best mix of both now and the future. Hughes is ready to be a major contributor and replacement for Santana right now. He is also team controlled for another 5 years and could be a Cy Young winner by then. Cabrera is at least almost equal to Crisp in helping right now. Crisp is faster and a better leadoff hitter but Cabrera has more power and they are similar in overall defense capablilty. Not to mention that he is only 23 and does (I’m not so sure) have the ability to get much better in the future. Throw in another arm like Horne/Wright/Marquez and that just gives us more depth in a couple years. The Yankees deal is the best, I just hate keeping Johan in the AL playing for our competitors.
Zach-
If those offers by the Yankees & Red Sox were still on the table, don’t you think they would have been made? Hughes & Lester are off the table. Seattle may get back in the mix since Angelos is ready to nix the Bedard deal.
I still can’t believe that we are not going to get at least two of Hughes/Kennedy/Jackson/Tabata. I understand the Yankees refusing to deal Cano and Chamberlain, but they should be willing to part with two of the above. Actually I think Hughes is going to be quite a bit better than Chamberlain. This deal should have been done six weeks ago for Hughes/Kennedy/Cabrera or Hughes/Jackson/Marquez.
I can’t see Seattle paying $150M to sign Johan.
Kennedy, Horne, Marquez & Jackson would get it done but Cashman refuses to give long term contracts to pitchers, but if Hughes stays then he would do it mostly b/c Hank wants Johan badly.
Seriously they are still on the table. Why do you think they would already have been done? They were both publicly on the table a month ago and the Twins didn’t make the deal. Trust me they are still on the table. The deals make sense for both clubs. The Twins are trying their best to get a four or five player ransom from the Mets. If they can get a deal with Martinez and Guerra or one with Gomez,Guerra and Pelfrey I think they will pull the trigger If they don’t they are going to accept the Hughes or Ellsbury deal. Man I hope it is Hughes over Ellsbury. Yes we need a CF badly but Hughes is going to be much better and we will need a frontline SP badly do when we deal Santana.
johan will not go to seattle, stop your nonsense.
Kennedy/Horne/Marquez/Jackson is not going to get it done. The Twins will not deal without Hughes in the deal. Just as the Yankees say no Chamberlain or Hughes/Kennedy combination, the Twins say no Santana without Hughes as the key piece.
George Steinbrenner has probably bitten his lip off by now…he would have pulled the trigger weeks ago…Santana is a natural Yankee. George’s boys dont have the whatchamacallits that George does. By the time they make a move…it’ll be too late.
Fleas-
What are you doing here, shouldn’t you be posting on LoHud? Lol
Zach-
Cashman loves what you are saying b/c he doesn’t want Johan.
imo-the must elements of a Mets package have to be Pelfrey(solid #2 sp),Guerra(potential Johan)and F-mart(a potential superstar).If they don’t want to give up Gomez,then Heilman is a must.No Humber,Mulvaney or any other pitching prospects speculated. We already have those type of prospects(Robertson,Swarzek,Perkins,Blackburn,Sosa,Manship).Don’t pull the trigger Omar and finish third in the NL east.The NY media will have a field day ripping you.Word has it ,they can be brutal.
Morneau
Mauer
Liriano
Hughes
Young
Cuddyer
Baker
Cabrera
Slowey
Neshek
This is a hell of a good core to build on for the next few years. I think about 25 other MLB teams would take that core. We would have our 2-6 hitters (2-7 if Kubel steps it up), our frontline top three starters and a decent closer. Detroit is going to have a good two year run, but in about 2010 the Twins are going to be the team to beat. I will take our young talent against Cleveland’s any day of the week. They will lose Sabathia like we are losing Santana. I’ll take Liriano,Hughes,Baker,Slowey over Carmona,Miller,Sowers,Laffey in a second. Our positional stars are very comparable, but Morneau,Mauer,Young rates higher than Hafner,Martinez,Sizemore. They do have some potentially good young players in Cabrera and Garko, but would have some good young talent in Cabrera and Casilla.
In case you don’t follow baseball, Cashman is not in charge of the Yankees. The deal is going down this week. It is Hughes/Cabrera/Horne or Marquez, Ellsbury/Lowrie/Masterson, Martinez/Guerra/Pelfrey/Humber. Take the Yankees deal and let us watch Liriano and Hughes become a ferocious combo.
By mid season 2009 the Twins could has six all-stars on this club.
C- Mauer
1B- Morneau
LF- Young
SP- Liriano
SP- Hughes
CL- Neshek
P.S. that Garza for Young deal is going to turn out to be almost as much of a steal as the Pierzynski deal. Santana for Hughes/Cabrera will turn out to be making the best out of bad situation and still getting a top flight pitcher back.
zach- from what i have been reading, neither martinez nor pelfrey have been offered, nor do the mets seem inclined to do so.
now, just because espn says it, doesn’t mean it’s true and it also doesn’t mean that it couldn’t happen. but it is what is being reported.
2B- Casilla CF- Sizemore
CF- Cabrera 2B- Cabrera
C- Mauer DH- Hafner
LF- Young C- Martinez
1B- Morneau 1B- Garko
RF- Cuddyer SS- Peralta
DH- Kubel LF- Blake
3B- Lamb 3B- Marte
SS- Everett RF- Guettirez
1- Liriano 1- Carmona
2- Hughes 2- Westbrook
3- Baker 3- Miller
4- Slowey 4- Sowers
5- Perkins 5- Laffey
So what team is better in 2009? I take the Twins in a New York minute. Even a Santana infused New York minute.
Zach and Buddy - One of you insists Lester and Hughes are on the table, the other insists they are not. The truth is, neither of you (nor none of the rest of us) know that either way. The Hunter signing was totally unexpected, the Morneau and Cuddyer extensions had absolutely no rumors ahead of time. It doesn’t matter what sportswriters are reporting. There are many, many such reports that turn out to be wrong, or represent pure speculation.
All that’s known for sure is that Cashman wants to keep the young guys (he said so publicly at a joint seminar with Theo Epstein), and that Hank has gone back and forth in his thinking a couple of times. That’s it. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if something comes out of the blue, like an Angels trade.
You are right about Martinez, but I think Pelfrey has been offered. Why wouldn’t he be? He is not good enough to not be included in a deal for Santana. If Martinez were to be on the table I think the deal would already have been done. I think the Twins are trying to get the Mets to give up Martinez before eventually deciding between Hughes and Ellsbury. I also think the Twins internal brass is trying to decide if Gomez is worthy of headlining a deal. I think they have decided he isn’t and that they need Martinez to make the deal. I would bet the Mets have said you can have Gomez/Guerra/Mulvey/Heilman or Gomez/Guerra/Pelfrey but not Martinez or Gomez/Guerra/Pelfrey/Mulvey. I think the Twins would gladly make the deal for Martinez/Guerra/Pelfrey or Gomez/Guerra/Pelfrey/Mulvey or Humber. I think the Mets are hestitant to give up their best prospect and also hesitant to give up a package of their 2nd and 3rd best prospect with 2 of their 3 best pitching prospects. That would leave their system very thin with only Humber and Martinez as their legit prospects. Even without Martinez, I think a Gomez,Guerra,Pelfrey,Mulvey deal would be pretty good. It all depends on how whether or not Gomez can hit. It would give us a tremendous amount of pitching depth with Liriano,Baker,Pelfrey,Slowey,Bonser,Perkins,Blackburn and Mulvey as pretty much MLB ready starters. With Guerra down in A or AA with the potential to be an ace in a few years.
If the Twins can get Minaya to give up Martinez that would be pretty enticing. Hughes is more ready now, but the potential of Martinez and Guerra would be hard to turn down. These two players have #3 hitter and 97 mph ace potential. Pair that with Morneau,Mauer,Young and Liriano in a few years and wow that would be a Yankees like team in terms of talent.
Here are a couple of interesting Twins tidbits from Bryan Smith’s chat on Baseball Prospectus today:
collins (greenville nc): Bryan, how high are you on Alexi Casilla, after his underwhelming performance at Rochester and in MN this past year? Still SS/2B of the future?
Bryan Smith: I’m not very high on Casilla. His contact abilities are pretty fantastic, and he deserves praise for that, but his OBP is just not high enough to make up for the fact that a .400 SLG will always be difficult for him. My leadoff series I did in July really painted a picture that Casilla faces an uphill, uphill climb.
————–
Geoff (Chicago): Joe Blanton will be pitching for whom on August 1, 2008?
Bryan Smith: I’m still going to guess that Johan goes to the Red Sox and then Blanton ends up going to the Mets. Sometimes, the simplest solution is the easiest one.
—————-
Jacques (France): Half a year out of the draft, is it fair to say Ben Revere wasn’t as much of a reach as originally presumed?
Bryan Smith: Good question, Jacque. I think there is a lot of danger in bashing a selection on draft day like we all originally did when the Twins took Revere. In the end, scouts and scouting directors are the smartest minds in baseball at analyzing high school talent, not you, not I. So I think when a scouting director worries that a player like Revere won’t be available by his next pick and takes him, that we need to hold the scouting director accountable, but also recognize there is a reason for that pick. There is a reason Revere was taken by the Twins, a reason Kozma was taken by the Cardinals.
————–
Kris (NJ): Kevin Goldstein has said that towards the end of the season, it looked like Jon Lester’s stuff was coming back to pre-cancer form. Gammons mentioned that his changeup and curveball improved dramatically in the postseason. What did you see, and how do you think Jon Lester will perform this season? Do you think it’s a good bet his command will improve? Do you still see him as having a high ceiling?
Bryan Smith: Oh, there is an absolutely undeniable difference between Lester in that gutsy first start against Cleveland and Lester in the playoffs. Against the Indians in the regular season, his stuff was not back, particularly his curveball I thought. I think he will be much better this season, and I’m just so glad his ceiling will be unaffected by the bump in the road he had to deal with.
————–
cjbuet (madison, wi): Does Franklin Morales have Francisco Liriano upside?
Bryan Smith: Does Francisco Liriano still have Francisco Liriano upside? No, I’m not sure Morales will have the season Liriano did before injury — his slider isn’t as good as Liriano’s was. But then again, I’m not so sure Liriano will ever have that season again.
BC
yeah, i enjoy the video games at times.
baseball and college football
every year, gotta buy them two.
Can’t wait for the twins new stadium! I will have Morneau hitting HR’s for DAYSSS!
but i agree, MLB 07 Had many many flaws, and I did enjoy the EA Sports.
But, i will be getting MLB 2008 The Show
and, When that week comes, My college Classes will be an after thought! haha
From the NY Post
ROBINSON CANO DEAL FINAL
January 28, 2008 — By JOEL SHERMAN
The terms on Robinson Cano’s Yankee contract were finalized in full early tonight, and all that needs to be completed for the deal to be official is a physical that will take place either tomorrow or the next day, The Post has learned.
Cano’s contract guarantees him $30 million for four years, and if both of the options on the deal are exercised, the second baseman will receive $57 million over six years. For Cano, it is financial security now and a chance – even if both options are exercised – to be a free agent in still prime years at age 31.
Cano is due to make $3 million in 2008, $6 million in 2009, $9 million in 2010 and $10 million in 2011. In 2012, Cano has an option for $14 million with a $2 million buyout. If that option is picked up, Cano will have another option in 2013 for $15 million with a $2 million buyout.
In the past, the Yanks have mainly stayed away from doing long-term deals with players in their arbitration years. But one of the key aspects of this package that they liked was the ability to keep Cano’s contract somewhat artificially low in 2008. In the arbitration process, Cano had asked for $4.55 million and the Yanks had countered at $3.2 million. Now, the actual salary will be $3 million.
The Yanks were willing to have Cano’s salary expand afterward because they have a series of big contracts ending over the next two years, including those of Jason Giambi, Mike Mussina, Bobby Abreu, Carl Pavano, Andy Pettitte and Kyle Farnsworth after the 2008 campaign.
nobody should buy another baseball video game until EA sports continues with the MVP Baseball line . . . The rest are all just pretenders . . .
The poster using the handle “CaptainObvious” is not associated with me in any way.
That is all.
To whoever thinks otherwise, listen up. C.C. Sabathia is NOT going anywhere. He’ll be with Cleveland for some time. At least through the next contract talks and extension.
As long as the Twins don’t sign Santana, I’d take the Mets deal first over anything else (providing F-mart is there). One way or another, F-Mart has to become a Twin for the Mets to land Santana. Second (or first without F-mart), I’d take the Lester deal. I like Coco- he should do better in this division than he does out east. The other 2 players involved could be pretty good also.
Let’s face it. With or without Santana, we aren’t going to win squat. There are so many “if’s” on this team for us to overcome all the obstacle’s this year. IF Liriano returns to form. IF Young replaces Hunter. IF we get any Major league ready talent we get in a trade, and IF they can be any good. IF Mauer can stay healthy. IF Morneau can maintain power numbers in the second half. IF the bullpen can stay injury free. IF Everett can bat any higher than .250 (same for Punto). The list goes on and on. IF one of the youngest rotations in baseball can get it done. IF Detroit doesen’t win 120 games this year. IF Lamb can handle playing full time and produce very solid numbers. I’ll watch and cheer for them, but so much has to happen for them to even contend for a playoff spot. 2010 should be our goal. Build for a couple years and then…Zoom. Take off and win like crazy. Detroit will hopefully be where we’re at right now and Cleveland hopefully wont be where Detroit is now. We could have F-Mart, Young, Morneau, Cuddy, Liriano, Neshek, Mauer, and who ever we get for Nathan ready to shine. 2010 should be our goal.
Sorry for the long post.
I’m still wondering..if Santana is gone it means the Twins gave up on this season as a contender, so why not add Joe Nathen to a trade and get the Yankee’s, Met’s or Bo Sox’s to add more to the trade? I’m a Twins fan who has came to grips with reality and know if the Twins get rid of Santana…then Nathen will either be traded or will waste away while the Twins lose more then 50% of their games and leave as a free agent next year. If the Twins aren’t gonna fork over the $$ to Santana and Nathen, then why not maximize their return on the 2?
Twinsfan,
EA still makes the MVP baseball game-they’re just at the collegiate level now until Take Two’s exclusive third party rights for MLB expires in 2012.
If you have a PS2,PS3, or PSP you can play Sony’s MLB The Show. Microsoft and Nintendo could also make MLB games if they wanted as well.
But we all know that IF any Team can get all the IF’s together it’s the TWINS. IT’s happened b4 with this team. Will it though?? Probably not but hey you never know! Just because all these teams look great on paper doesn’t mean that they are going to dominate.. Injuries can occur that take down a power house team just like any other
After reading all these blog entries over the past few months, I don’t think I’ve seen anyone simply suggest Santana for Ellsbury/Lester.
Instead of asking for extra pitchers (we’ve got young ones in the minors ready), SS prospects (we have on in Casilla), etc., cut the dead wood and just ask for the guys you want. Lester solidifies our rotation and Ellsbury fills CF and leadoff in the order. BoSox get the best pitcher in baseball, until Liriano comes back full strength!
Ellsbury
Harris
Mauer
Cuddyer
Morneau
Young
Kubel/Monroe
Lamb
Everett
B Dubz, that was one of the first suggestions from the Twins camp (after Ellsbury/Bucholtz)
The whole reason it’s expanded to 4 players (and either Ellsbury or Lester) is because the Sox didn’t want to give up both.
Tracymn-I agree that if Johan is traded then Nathan should follow.The speculated package for Johan from the Mets includes outfielders and pitchers.We would be better served to trade Nathan in a seperate deal.Even that creates a problem.Maximum trade value comes at this years trade deadline.But only teams with hopes of making the playoffs would be involved.To trade Nathan now would bring most of the teams that don’t have a dominant closer in to play.We could trade him for much needed infield help
Friday he’s holding up a Mets jersey.
This was posted last Friday. Obviously it did not happen in the time frame mentioned by “Forty Seven”. Once again, even so called insider information is just rumor….
Kurosawa says:
January 25th, 2008 at 4:36 pm
Forty Seven, the nyfuturestars.com source who broke the news of the Twins offering extensions to three players including Santana, says the agreed-upon deal will give the Mets 72 hours to reach an agreement with Santana, and that the league office will have to approve that provision. Once it’s approved, he says, it’s likely to be announced very quickly, as it’s almost certain to leak in a media hotbed like NY. In other words, no holding on to this until after the Super Bowl.
Go to Joe Christenson’s blog as for Tuesday, 1/29/08.
Can you imagine the Mets love for an 18-yr-old AA outfielder stopping them from acquiring their best chance for a World Series title?
I believe all other Twins-Santana requests are of little concern for the Mets.
But in the end, they will probably toss it all away to hang on to FMart.
imo-The whole trade scenario for Johan comes to simple fact.Do we want to lose to Johan in a future playoff series as a Yank or Bosox or have a chance to beat him as a Met in the WS.I’m afraid that a trade to the Yanks or the Bosox’s would affect the balance of power in the AL for years to come.Anyway.i think the Mets package holds the best long-range value potential.
Cmon Billy, lets get this thing done
WAAAAA!!!!- WAAAAAA!!!! THE TWINKIES GET HOSED AGAIN…BUSH LEAGUE….ARE YOU THE EXPOS of the AMERICAN LEAGUE…YOU SURE LOOK LIKE ‘EM
Your Amature GM… showed how green he is…
meow
