Santana Central
Posted on January 29th, 2008 – 9:23 AMBy La Velle
The Twins’ expected trade of ace Johan Santana has held up the industry the entire offseason. But trade speculation will really heat up now that it’s become known that the Twins want to get something done this week.
One thing that never changes in this sport: Things get done when there are deadlines involved. If the Twins want to deal Santana this week or before spring training, then the three teams interested should be ready to step forward now.
A reader alerted me to a report last night that Carlos Gomez had been pulled from winter ball. It’s led to speculation that a deal is close and Gomez is invovledl. Rotoworld claims its just a coincidence. I’m still looking into this.
Here’s a Mets story from the Daily News
Here’s a Boston story from the Globe
The next few days should be fun.
490 Responses to "Santana Central"
LEN III
Have you heard if the Twins like Gomez or Martinez more? If they can’t get both don’t they have to make sure they get Martinez?
Thanks for the update and good luck over the next week.
let’s get the dodgers back in the running.
I am so sick of this whole fiasco ..and yet I can not contain myself from looking at reports and rumors all day long. I can’t wait till this over so I can start sleeping again
Wow, more and more it sounds like Bill Smith will go down as a complete fool.
Yankees are out. That is being reported by every media outlet.
Nice bargaining chips Bill. Great job! Loser.
This deal is not going to excite use at all now that the Yankees are out!
BIG AND SWEATY IS GOING TO GO DOWN WITH THE SHIP
RC
I agree that Hughes was the best player availble but did you really like the other pieces that the Yankees were offering?
“The Yankees and Red Sox, at the moment, don’t seem to be actively involved in pursuing Santana and may have only been involved earlier to drive the price up on each other. Yankees GM Brian Cashman has stressed recently that he is “committed to our young players” and would prefer not to make a trade.”
Of course not, they got tired of Bill Smith’s shenanigans a long time ago. SHAME ON YOU BILL.
NOW, you are stuck with the Mets crap.. if this happens, I will no longer be a twins fan. I am not supporting a team that pays a clueless GM.
Why is this deadline any more important than the last 3. Seems like we’re getting all worked up over nothing again.
Pete
The Twins are the ones setting the deadline this time, which is why it is important.
They want to have a decision made before Spring Training starts so this doesn’t hang over their heads all season.
Reality Check, if the Sox and Yanks were only it to screw each other over…then the deal would’ve never gone through.
All either team would have to do is “okay” the deal, then wait a few days and call it off after negotiations fell through with Santana (since any trade would be contingent on being able to sign him to a contract).
And then what do the Twins do? With Boston or New York OFFICIALLY out his value drops a LOT (more competition means more has to be given up to draw the Twins attention)
Reality Check, what were Bill’s “shenanigans”? Not liking the original offers? And are you that broken up about losing out on M. Cabrera? Are you serious? As a total package, the Yankees were offering the worse of the three teams involved. I like Hughes, but if we are going to get a prospect, it better be more than one. They are prospects, not a guarantee.
cashman can sit with his young pitching staff and watch the playoffs without his yankees in them for the first time in , what 12 years? the only way he comes out looking good is if johan stays with the twins this year and the yankees get him in free agency. the odds of that are about 1%…as far as im concerned they can keep their beloved hughes, and over-rated centerfielder offer and enjoy october on the couch.
the mets deal stinks…lofton, patterson in center stinks. the twins should offer 5 years to snatana because without the yanks or sox, they get no major league ready players. and if they don’t sign him, he walks for draft picks next winter. do they think we’re stupid! signing morneau and cuddy was a pr move. those signings mean nothing if scott frickin baker is a number 1 or 2
Everyone needs to Calm Down.
I for one, Do not believe that the Yankees are out of it.
How many times did Hank shoot his mouth off this offseason?
If BS picks up the phone and speaks with the yanks they will be all over Johan in no time..
But,
Give me Martinez/guerra/pelfrey/lagares/garcia and we got a deal
Reality
If you are much of a fair weather fan then go ahead and not support the Twins. Maybe wait and see if they turn out to be players. Our FO has done a great job of identifying players see Joe C article yesterday
If they don’t want to have the Santana situation hanging “over their heads all season,” the Twins should sign him now, keep him for a couple of years, then trade him. By showing they are not interested in keeping Santana, the Twins by their own hand further lower his trade value to other prospective teams because there is reduced demand. If there is something to compete against here, the Mets or whoever will then be forced to try harder. Why should Brooklyn give away the farm when the price goes down by the hour?
On another note, does anyone else wonder if a tinge of subtle racism is going on here? Cuddyer and Morneau and, previously, Mauer got some big paydays, but nothing realistic for Santana, Hunter, or Silva? Is there a dual payscale at play here? Makes me wonder, especially regarding Santana.
Why don’t the Twins offer guaranteed 5 years, 110 million, with a club option for a sixth year at 20-25? Seems Johan wants the years. This altogether could total six years, 135 million. I think that’s the maximum effort the Twins should make, but should ACTUALLY make that effort. Thoughts?
Racism?!?!?! Seriously?1?!?!?!?
Like I said yesterday, and throughout the past few weeks. Neither of the reported teams are out of it. Reality Check, that is your opinion. I personally think the Yankees deal is by far the worst and really the only unappectable one availiable. If Boston is willing to give Lester, Crisp, Lowrie, Masterson, and Kalish, by all means go for it. It pays the Twins short and long term.
You guys are being pretty tough on Bill. Let’s see what happens and then folks can second guess after the fact.
Just Sayin
You must have forgotten that the Twins have already paid Hunter and Santana over $100 million combined. So no, I don’t think racism played a role in this at all.
if you read what’s been said in the last week it appears that santana does not want to stay here (see what pohlad said in walters). i’ve said it before that the twins offer and what is reported that he wants is not that far apart if he really wanted to stay. imo he wants to play in the big lights and media center of ny.
imo don’t take anything said by cashman or hank as close to the truth they are still playing the game to get him for the least amount at this point they are playing a bluff to keep the price down. the more eager they are in public the higher the price.
common negotiating practice.
If Morneau was 32yrs. old and wanted a 5yr./$90 mil extension, the Twinks would have let him walk. Same with Cuddyer. Garza & Bartlett are traded so we can get D. Young! Facts are facts….don’t get off track speculating about some imaginary behind the scenes plot.
Reality Check,
I hope you quit being a Twins fan. Just a better chance of me getting better seats at the new Park. Yessss!!! Have fun cheering for the Lynx.
Jama, that was then, and this is now. All I’m saying is that since Santana has incredible talent, why isn’t the offer more legit? It’s not like he is of Lohse caliber or something.
I hope I’m wrong, and it could just be that the Twins are cheap, period, but it does make me wonder.
i’m sure this has been posted here, but if not…:
UPDATE, 1-29-08 at 9:42am: ESPN’s Buster Olney says the Twins asked for each team’s “last and best offers” on Monday. They could decide Santana’s fate as early as today. Olney adds that the Yankees “appear to be not presently engaged whatsoever in the Santana talks.” Olney used to be a Yankees beat writer, so he’s bound to have a good line on this.
As for the Red Sox - Olney is hearing conflicting things about Jon Lester’s availability. It’s possible that Lester could only be had in a more limited package - he, Coco Crisp, and not much else. From- mlbtraderumors.com
i am starting to get a weird feeling that the red sox could sneak back in.
Just Sayin
So the Twins weren’t racist 4 years ago but now they are? What happened in those 4 years? I think it is more coincidence than anything else. How many teams in MLB would pay Hunter $18 mil per and Silva $12 mil per? Are those teams all racist also? How many teams would be willing to pay a starting pitcher over $120 million? I think that lots of teams would shy away from that contract.
My master informed me that we will be trading Mr. Santana to the Cincinnati Reds for Edwin Encarnacion, Homer Bailey and David Weathers shortly.
Just remember, trades often happen to the place you least expect. Trust me. I have close connection to Mr. Smith.
Hairpiece
Jay Bruce would have to be included in any trade to the Reds. But the Twins do have the GM connection there.
I am a betting man and I am betting that it is announced Thursday that the Twins and Mets have the parameters of a trade and the Mets will have 72 hours to work out a deal with Santana.
People are saying Smith waited to long,and others applauded him for not jumping at the first offer and holding out for more talent.If Smith makes a trade with the Mets those that liked the RedSox offers will be whining.Same with those that prefered the Yankees deal.The point is Smith is not to blame for whatever transpires in all of this.The previous GM left him this mess and IMO Smith has handed it about as well as he could.
The bottom line is Smith has been more or less forced to trade the best pitcher in baseball because the previous GM didn’t have the forsight to lock him up when he could have,or at the very least traded him before his loomig free agency was going to become a hurdle too high to clear.
If your going to critique Bill Smith do it on the things he had some control over,like the Delmon young trade,or the signing of Morneau and Cuddyear.Smith has had very little control over the Santana situation.the other teams know it,and this is why it is what it is.
Just sayin,
Who else (besides the stupid Giants) are offering 7years/$140 million contract for a pitcher?
All of the other organizations realize the Zito contract was a disaster.
Should the Twins have offered Silva 4 years/$48 million?
Should the Twins have offered Hunter 5 years/$90 million?
The Twins made no bad business decisions in any of those cases.
jama, like I said, I hope I’m wrong, but something isn’t right here, imo. When you’ve got the modern version of Cy Freakin’ Young on your staff, wouldn’t you do your best to hang on to him?
The Twins did right by Kirby way back when, and I don’t understand why they can’t do right by Johan now.
I’m going to drop this because I don’t want everybody uptight. Maybe La Velle can just delete the entries about this and we can all be happy again.
Johan, thanks for all the greatness we got to see when you pitched. You will be missed, sir.
just saying,
Racism?! Seriously? I don’t know if I could think of something more outrageous as a reason for them not signing Santana.
From the Globe story (posted by LenIII above):
Publicly, the Sox are masking their intentions, while privately expressing conflicted emotions about not only parting with top prospects but having to pay Santana what likely will be the largest contract ever awarded a pitcher.
No Sox officials would comment on the record yesterday, but one club official confirmed that contact with the Twins is ongoing and that, contrary to one published report, lefthander Jon Lester remains a possible trading chip.
The Yankees, meanwhile, appear to be backtracking, general manager Brian Cashman recently saying, “My strong recommendation is we stick with our young pitching staff and keep it in house. I’m married to that process.”
New Yankees owner Hank Steinbrenner also has said he intends to exercise patience with his young players, but the bloodlines suggest that Steinbrenner could change his mind if Santana appears bound for Boston.
Translation:Red Sox,Yankees and Mets are all still in the hunt.More so for the Red Sox and Mets.
Jeff no offense but even opinions sometimes are laughable.
trade him for 2 veteran pitchers and screw the prospects
I’m wondering the same thing. Imagine Buchholz getting 2 CY and the red sox trying to trade him instead of doing everything they can to keep him. I’m not saying its rasism but it could be that they are afraid that if he gets injured it will be really bad for the team tying al this money on one player.
why would the twins give the other team a 72 hour window to sign him as speculated? that leaves the twins with no options and at the whim of the other teams offer. if they can’t sign him (or really don’t want to sign him)to what they feel is ok do we then move on to another offer which will certainly be lowered after the first offer failed?
imo any trade is for his services for 08 and the exclusive right to negotiate with him until after the 08 world series.
agreeing to a 72 hr window really limits the twins options and the options are already limited.
go dodgers!
I have a feeling the Santana camp will find out soon that no team is willing to gamble $140-$160 million over the next 7 years for a pitcher.
i think you would have to be an idiot to pay 25 mill over 7 seasons. 80 for 4 yrs is decent he is just being greedy and it shows where his loyalty is. not even the yanks want to pay for that contract. he is not even an everyday player.
Christina,
Your assumption about the risk in tying up $140 million in one player by a small market team is exactly the reason for the Twins reluctance to resign Santana.
NO LOYALTY!! GIVE HIM 1 MORE CHANCE AND UP IT TO 5 YRS AT 20 MILL PER AND IF HE SAYS NO THEN TELL HIM TO KICK ROCKS AND TRADE HIM.
If you want loyalty, get a dog.
Santana is not greedy.
He has every right to ask for his market value.
He has family, friends and poor countrymen who he could help.
He has more deserving causes to donate to, than the Yanks, Sox, Mets or Twins who are all richer than he is.
Brief bit of research last night.
Deals of 5 or more years for pitchers:
Worked out -
Maddux ‘93 5/28
Maddux ‘98 5/57.5
Pedro ‘98 6/75
Fence or TBD -
Mussina ‘01 6/88.5
Zito ‘07 7/126
Bombed -
Alvarez ‘98 5/35
Dreifort ‘99 5/55
Brown ‘99 7/105
Neagle ‘01 5/51
Hampton ‘01 8/121
Chan Ho ‘02 5/65
Any others?
SANE I guess your right it would be very hard for me to live on 80 mill for the next 4 years. I guess I would have to be very creative seeing as I have only been making a Measly 13 mill a year recently. My god what will I ever do. Where will I live what will I ever wear oh man what could I scounge up to eat.
jhawk,
Pavano, Clement, and bet heavily on Zito to not earn $126 million.
i dont see the problem as santana wanting to get paid.
twins offer 4yr -80 mil is SOO far off from what santana can get on the open market, that its not even funny.
Its a slap in the face to Johan.
Joe Nathan sits back and watches Hunter get a 3 yr 45mil offer from the twins
silva was 3 year 21mil??
hunter - 3 yr 45 mil got - 5yr 90?
silva - 3 yr 21mil - he got 4 yr 48mil
Santana - 4 yr 80mil - probably will get around 6yr $120 mil
Joe Nathan comes out and says he took a hometown discount last time, but this time he expects it to be the other way around. He does not want a low ball offer like these 3 got.
So, i guess my point is that The twins offers are so absurdly low/far off from what the players could actually get, that its really a slap in the face to the athlete.
Heck, offer Johan 6 years $100mil.. he will get his years, and still a huge chunk of change.. and that is a hometown discount that a player may have taken..
6 years? no way
jimmy bee,
Maybe you would not build a hospital in your hometown with the money.
Have you ever turned down a raise so your employer could keep the money?
Does Santana owe the money to Twins fans who call him disloyal and greedy?
Jhawk Pedro Martinez lived up to his Red Sox deal… 6 years 75 with a 7th year club option at 17.5
I think it is bad that the Yankees are only giving it a half hearted effort. It seems like they don’t even want to pay an inflated salary like Johans for a player that doesn’t even play every day. Even Pay Rod plays everyday yes that is right every single game
I am thinking that if we don’t get both F-mart and gomez plus Pelfry and Guerra with Church we would reject the mets because anything less would be getting ripped off.
boo hoo I can’t feed my family on 80 mill over the next 4 years. Feel sorry for me ala Spreewell. Who cares.
Pavano was 4 with an option, Clement 3. Bombs - oh yeah, but I was going of the 5 or more that apparently Johan wants.
Metro - yep, I put him up there w/Maddux.
TJ The Mets aren’t going to give up 3 OF in one deal, then they won’t have a RF at all.
I read these responses and wonder what it would be like if all of you were in a bar at the same time….
MH: you forgot morneau had a 4 yr 33m offer last year he turned down. i think all the low ball ofers by tr may be part of the reason for the morneau and cuddy contracts to be a little over priced imo. i think morneau did ok by waiting a yr. and now mauer will want a new contract.
keep spending your money carl!!!! you can’t take it with you!
I think we can forget any deals with West Coast teams. Several reports, including recent one from Joe C., indicate Santana will only approve a deal to one of the the New York teams or Boston.
Looking at the list of long-term deals that bombed, none of the pitchers had anything close to the career Santana has had prior to signing. Santana is a left-handed Maddux and Pedro rolled into one. At 28, he’s the closest thing to a sure thing out there.
I think a lot of the rumored reluctance on the part of the Sox, Yanks and Mets (especially the Mets) is just bluster. LEN3 is right, give them a deadline and they’ll step up with the dollars and the players.
The trouble is, there is so much noise out there. Olney’s story on ESPN is a case in point. The headline says a deal could be done today. But the story is just recycled garbage from his “industry sources” who don’t know more than the average blogger.
I think LEN3 and Joe C. have the best information on this.
len3 why don’t you open a bloggers bar?
CARL CAN NOT DIE HE WILL LIVE FOREVER AND EVER TORTURING EVERY LOYAL TWINS FAN FOREVER HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA…..
( SOUNDING TAPERS OFF INTO THE DISTANCE )
Metro,
You are right.
The Twins would not ask for two more corner outfielders (or 3 OF) and let that hold up a trade.
Metro,
Knowing that as a Mets fan, you’d prefer to give up as little as possible. Also knowing that Gomez/Mulvey/Humber/Guerra hasn’t gotten it done. What do you think the odds are that Martinez gets included? Or, would you be OK with letting one prospect (albeit perhaps the best prospect out there, but still a prospect) scuttle the whole deal?
Pujols for Santana heads up anyone?
La Velle,
I would look for friendlier bar.
I don’t care What the Metss want to give up i am saying that there deal is garbage.
I would like to See the Reds in it though a package around Homer Baily and Bruce would be sweet but thats a pipe dream. Unless well the will have Griffey off the books next year and we do have the GM to GM connection. No still never happen. Just living in Candyland.
No sympothy over here for a man who can’t feed his family on 80 mill for the next 4 years. better get more creative with your cash. Try kool aid and mac and cheese
TJ,
I don’t think you know what a ripoff means.
As a Mets fan, the way I look at trades is that a trade is only fair if it makes both sides a little uneasy.
I would be a little nervous if Delios Guerra and Carlos Gomez were traded. That said, I think an C. Gomez/Guerra/Humber/Mulvey offer is more than fair considering that the Mets will also have to sign him to a long-term deal upwards of 125 million dollars.
Personally the only prospect I TRULY want to keep is Martinez only because we already have Beltran so Gomez will need to display more power for the Mets (in a corner role) then he would for another team as a CF. He hits 10-20 homers 40+ steals as a CF with his defensive tools and thats quite a nice player, as a RF I am not sure thats QUITE as valuable. That said, if it came down to it I would replace Gomez with Martinez in the deal, I wouldn’t add Martinez to the deal you named ie…. Martinez/Gomez/Mulvey/Humber/Guerra…. that deal I would in fact walk away from to be honest.
LEN III,
Are there any stirrings on the West Coast at all? We’ve seen the Angels propensity to slip in at the last minute. I wonder if the Dodgers are rethinking as well, seeing that the bidding has subsided and NYY are on the sidelines. Lastly, what about Seattle if the Bedard deal falls through?
Bill Smith needs to realize that he’s a rookie. Hasnt even gotten his feet wet and going against the 3 powers of the league. He should just call T.Ryan and let him make the decision.
Metro,
Thanks for your take. We’ll see how it all shakes out.
Mark the Dodgers say they are tapped out moneywise after adding Andruw Jones and Kuroda . People in NY were laughing how Torre must be shellshocked to be on a team without unlimited money to spend. I can’t speak for the Angels.
Metro,
Completely agree. That is way too much. From the Mets perspective, you have to understand that the Mets will not trade all three prospect outfielders in the same off-season (Milledge, Gomez, F. Martinez).
Now, they could deal Church, as you have read. It would probably be something like Church/Gomez/Guerra/Humber or Mulvey. Even that makes me a little nervous because we will have an obvious hole in right field.
I don’t think that money should have anything to do with it. He is due to make just over 13mil this season and that is what we are trading for. I don’t want a bunch of no names and neverwill bes we have enough of them in the system already. See your Mets fan so you have your bliners on already
Here is where I think the disconnect is…… Johan Santana is the BEST pitcher in baseballl…. no debate… The Twins fans don’t give a damn that the Mets (or Sox or Yankees) will need to give him 6 years 120+ million (and may even be a little bit bitter that their team won’t) HOWEVER the Twins DO realize that this aspect effects Santana’s trade value as do the teams bidding for him. So while Johan Santana…. the man on the mound is worth the moon in prospects to Twins fans (which I 10000% understand), his actual trade value is less then that because of his contract demands and impending FA.
The Angels have the arms the prospects and the money to do the deal but they are not even stupid enough to give 25 per yr for 7 years. They are sitting over in La La land watching Bill Smith act like he is the Minnesota Twins version of the rally monkey
CaptainObvious-
TRyan is already in the loop on the Santana deal.
howard 220 has a bit from forbes mag. on uncle carl and his spending, or lack thereof, habits. worth the read.
Metro, most sane Twins fans at this point have followed the talks enough (and it’s really not that hard considering they’ve been going for near on 3 months now) to know that’s the situation.
That’s why you see the disappointment aimed at the Front Office for letting the situation get to this point.
T.J.,
I couldn’t disagree more with you.
I respect that you think the Twins should get as much as possible for him…I mean, he is the best pitcher in the game, but his contract demands has lowered the market for him. Why else do you think only the richest teams have made bids for him??
TJ, the market for Santana isn’t half of what it would be if he were locked up for 2 years like Bedard (Notice the teams in on Bedard…. Mariners, Reds etc) aren’t in on Santana. When the Mets traded for Piazza, they got him MUCH cheaper then if he were locked up because the Marlins knew they couldn’t keep him and the Mets knew that they had to give up talent AND give him a monster deal.
I think the door is swinging open for the Dodgers to walk thru if indeed we can’t sign Johan. I like a deal that brings us CF’er Kemp, LH prospect Kershaw and set up man Jonathon Broxton.
gobbledygookguy give me that link on scrooge i would love to read about his Royal cheapness
its on howard sinkers blog 220: link up above on right
Metro-
The disconnect IMO is the Twins fans understand that the Bosox and Yanks regularly blow millions on “average” players….so why would they worry about spending millions on an “excellent” player. Case in point…$14.4mil for J.D. Drew??? $23+mil for Giambi??? etc, etc, etc….
Mets have been slightly smarter/better. All three of these teams have the revenues to support this payroll waste. Why would they worry about money now?
I would be very surprised if the Dodgers got involved when they have Penny, Lowe, Billingsley, Kuroda (whom they just gave BIG money to) and Jason Schmidt
La Velle
Yes, a bar! with pitchers of beer! and baseball on 24/7.
Metro,
As posted, I thinks most Twins fan realize the full implication of signing Santana…it’s a steep price for sure, but I thinks most people here believe he will not only win more CY awards in the future, but he will be a dominant force in the post season as well.
I posted this yesterday as well, talking about the economics of the Santana deal. Scroll to the bottom and it talks about the benefits the Mets should derive from the trade. The article is by Vince Genarro on Yahoo Sports.
I love beer but I hate Pohlads thrifty ways
Anyone see roto world’s Top 2003 prospects where are they now?
Its scary stuff for those wingbats who count on prospects living up to expectations….
Hawk, the problem is that Santana’s 20+ Million would cost the Yankees about 35 million with the luxury tax and Hal Steinbrenner and Cashman apparently have convinced Hank that NO pitcher is worth that. As for The Red Sox if I were them he would be a Sock already…. Lester or Ellsbury, Lowrie, Masterson and Kulish and possibly Bowden….. Santana, Beckett, Dice-K, Buccholtz going forward…. impressive… another issue is his contract apparently is non-insurable (no contracts past 5 years apparently can be (THANK YOU MO VAUGHN!) so teams clearly realize that a pitcher… going from age 29 to age 35-36 is not the best bet to stay healthy, a guy like A-Rod is FAR less likely to have an injury that ends his career then Santana. I can’t speak for the Yankees but the Mets surely can’t have a 20+ million dollar paper weight on their payroll if Santana were to get hurt. People seem to think that the Mets spend, spend spend but the Mets payroll has been between 100 and 115 million for the last 5-6 years and is actually LOWER this year then last year losing Glavine, Green, Valentin’s contract (back on a minor league deal) etc
Hawk,
Essentially and indirectly, the Red Sox and Yankees have controlled the market for Santana more than the Twins FO has.
gook, I read the article.
The author suggests that Selig step in and force Pohlad to keep Santana.
Step back and think about that abstractly for a moment. The commissioner is going to force a team to make a player aquisition.
And aside from that absurd idea…what does that article say that brings anything new to the table? I swear you people will give accolades to any article as long as has the words: “Pohlad” and “cheap” in it. Who cares if it just rehashes the same tired old drivel.
I said this in response to that article over in Howard’s blog, and I’ll say it here.
You guys praised Bill Smith for the signings of Morneau and Cuddyer, but then turned around and continued the “Cheap Carl” rhetoric.
You do realize that the money for Cuddyer and Morneau just didn’t poof into existence right? Nor did Bill Smith decide he was going to take financial matters into his own hands.
You want a disconnect Metro? I think we’ve got our real problem right here.
A bar? Beer? Baseball? There would probably be fist fights, beer flying, verbal assaults, riot police and all of us wanting to come back the next night to do it again…having the time of our lives. Weird..eh?
Hawk
I cannot wait until closing time
“Hey La Velle, You picking up the Tab?”
haha
Get ready folks:
Gomez, Church, Guerra, Pelfrey and Parnell
So, Onley is saying a deal could come today…
Hope he’s right, I’d like this to be over.
Also, how cool would that be if the winner was the Dodgers? It’d be funny that they haven’t been talked about…
Gomez and Church won’t be in the same deal. At least they shouldn’t be.
The rumor earlier this week was that Gomez would be taken out, Martinez and Church would be put in with two of those three pitches…
Metro,
Twins Fans Bill of Rights
I) All other teams must offer what WE want, not what they think reasonable.
II) THe Twins must pay all players whatever they ask to keep them in Minnesota.
III) All Twins players must accept whatever salary is offered.
IV) No one is allowed to leave.
I should say that I think it is absurd that the Twins even have to trade Johan. Still doesn’t make sense to me. The game is thriving right now. Even as a Mets fan, I think trades like this are bad for the game.
Sane, you forgot one:
V) Only those players which the fans no longer like or percieve as having no value will be available for trade.
Gotta Believe What is really ruining baseball is the Yanks Red Sox and free agency
Well they are playing inside the rules as currently constructed. If you were a Yankees or Red Sox fan, I doubt you would complain.
jimmy bee:
It wasn’t the Red Sox or Yanks that spent “Zito money”. And it wasn’t the Red Sox or Yanks that gave up “Meche money”
Nor is it the Red Sox or Yanks that are demanding “Santana money”
Sane, you guys deserve to be upset that you are losing (likely) a future HOF and the best pitcher in the game. Im willing to wager no matter what the final deal is that people on both sides will be saying it was a bad deal for their team.
Gotta Believe, my understanding is there is a surprisingly large portion of YankeeFans incensed that Hank went back on his “No A-Rod” ultimatum…
Teams have to pay “zito” money, and they have to pay “Meche” money if they want to acquire the players.
Teams have to overpay to get talent because of the Yanks/Sox
lavelle, when you heading down to fort myers? any good places to get good food and drinks around the ball Park. longtime MN justed moved down here. keep up the good work love your knowledge.
T,
Yeah…but that has more to do with pride and irrational blame of post-season failure on A-Rod than it does anything tangible.
jimmy bee,
whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
uhoh, ralf is back
what your trade prediction ralf?
I’ll post this again:
Gomez, Church, Guerra, Pelfrey and Parnell
The problem with the Yankees spending is that they can “bury” their mistakes…. Damon and Giambi combine for around 38 million this upcoming year yet Damon isn’t even starting and Giambi will be replaced at 1b at the drop of a hat if he doesn’t produce. Mussina makes big money but stinks, big deal put him in the pen, Carl Pavano, Kei Igawa etc.
Metro2008-Are there any good Mets blogs to check out concerning the Santana talks?
Hey Ralf whatcha gonna do when jim Leyland and his tigers run all over your AL East teams
Metro,
I think Twins fans will be more upset with the trade than will the other team’s fans, because fans look at the players involved only.
If Twins fans got stuck with the bill for paying Santana (or the prospects),
unloading Santana would look a hell of a lot better to them.
jimmy,
love it! i’m a mets fan. lol.
Ralf says:
January 29th, 2008 at 12:22 pm
I’ll post this again:
Gomez, Church, Guerra, Pelfrey and Parnell
hmm, looks almost like what i was saying yesturday..
works for me!
GO DODGERS
MH-where are the Twins gonna play Church at? Are you wanting a church/Gomez CF platoon? I don’t see Church a need for us, would rather take chance on a couple prospects.
MH,
You should be happy, thats actually a really good package.
EVEN BETTER YET RALF GO PHILLIES. I ALWAYS DID LIKE RICHIE ALLEN
michael
Did you even look at the top 2003 prospect list? I would say at least 12 of the first 20 are at the very least every day players with as many as 5 of those guys perenial All-Stars. The way prospects work is you try to get as many good ones as you can and hope that half pan out. I understand why people are reluctant to want prospects but the 2003 ranking is not the year you want to look at and say that nobody turned out.
Here are just a couple of the top 20
Mauer
Morneau
Cuddyer
Texiera
Reyes
F-Rod
Victor Martinez
Rich Harden
I think the Twins will take a step back this year if they deal Santana but be quite good again as soon as 2009. Morneau, Mauer, Delmon Young, Cuddyer…. the making of a big time lineup. Liriano, Bonser, Baker, Slowey, Masnship… and thats not even including who they get for Santana.
JDW
Here is my thinking on Church.
I figure if the Twins acquire Gomez in a trade then they might as well acquire church with him.
Gomez can be our Everyday CF, and Church can give him a day or two off.
Otherwise I would rather substitute a position player for Church. Lagares/manny garcia/pellot preferably
If the Twins acquire Martinez in the trade, then there is NO need for Church. He is not an everyday CF and we would still need to go sign patterson/lofton or someone to play there everday
so, if we get gomez, i believe we will also get church and then come spring training we will probably cut monroe
Church can hit, but defensively i think he will struggle in CF with the turf
50-52% of revenue is supposidly supposed to go toward payroll. And the Hunter and Silva money had to go somwere if that’s the case right?
Metro
I agree
The tigers have THIS year to make a run
otherwise i think pudge/sheff/the gambler could all be gone.
and they do not have the pieces in the minors to make a big trade
inge to replace pudge in 2009? big big downgrade!
Metro,
I think you are correct about the 2009-2010 Twins.
If only you could convince the Twins bloggers to give BS permission to trade Santana and be patient for a year or two.
Many here want to keep Santana, finish 3rd again, settle for two crappy draft choices and suffer through 2009-2010.
Most people are negative on the Mets deal, I am wondering what people think we should be getting for Santana. The market for him is not there. Neither the Yanks or Boston really want him that bad, if they did they would have pushed harder for him instead of backing down and taking players off the table. I think everyones fantasy when they heard Santana was on the trading block is that Boston would offer us Ellsbury, Pedroia, Yukalis, and Lester. The Yanks would offer us Cano, Cabrera, Hughes and Chamberlain. The fact of the matter is no one wants to give up that much major league ready talent for a guy who plays 30-35 times a year. Is it fair, who knows, everyone is entitled to their opinion. He is probably the best pitcher in the game and if not, one of the top 3-5. But when everyone gets so mad and acts like we are getting garbage for him in return, at least it is something. The alternative is we can hold on to him and the when no one wants to give us a starting outfielder and pitcher at the trading deadline we go into the off season and free agency. Who is to say that if he hits free agency other teams aren’t at that time going to step in on the bidding war. Teams like Detroit, Whitesox or even Cleveland. That would be real nice if the Twins let him go for a couple of unproven 17 year old draft picks and one of those 3 division teams landed him. I can understand everyones frustration about only get prospects for the most part but you can’t make a team that doesn’t want him that bad give you what you want. All 3 of these teams could say screw it we’ll wait another season and then get in the bidding war with out giving up 4-5 prospects. I just really don’t see old Carl or his kids forking over 25 mil a year to keep him here and if they did where would we be. In the same spot we are now. Unable to go out and sign decent free agents. Just my thoughts.
Call Me Stupid
Morneau and Cuddyer both got signing bonuses with their new contracts. That money is going towards the 2008 payroll. I think Morneau got an extra $6 million and Cuddyer’s was around $4 million so that adds $10 million.
No offense guys… the odds of you guys winning the World Series in 2008 were going to be low Santana or not (I feel the same way about my team, trust me). I would rather be STACKED in 2009 and beyond then be good in 2008 if I am a Twins fan.
t again you didn’t really read what i said which was just a note saying howard had it on his blog and it was worth reading, i made no editiorial comment about uncle carl.
i have, however, been critical of uncle carl and family from the time he agreed to contract the twins and leave us with NO team. you have the right to defend him any way you want and others have the right to criticize him like all other owners get criticized.
i would like for you some time to give us a good reason why there should not be some residual anger about his contraction efforts.
remember if he had his way there would be no twins to talk about.
FYI,
I haven’t seen it posted, so…
Mike Francessa on WFAN just reported that Santana just turned down the latest Twins offer of 5 years 100 million. And the Mets are now “on the clock” whatever that means.
In case anyones interested, go check out SethSpeaks site and read his Q&A w/Baseball America writer & where he thinks the sox/yanks/mets prospects stack w/ Twins prospects. It’s pretty interesting
Get it done,
GREAT POINT.
If Santana goes to FA, he might sign with the Tigers or Indians.
Than five times a year our #1 pitcher faces Santana,; our #2 faces Sabathia; and our #3 faces Carmona.
PLEASE TRADE him out of our division!!!
Bdid,
I think it wouldn’t matter what the Twins offer Santana, he doesn’t want to play here any longer. I felt at the end of last season he seemed at times to be just going through the motions and not giving his best. At that point, I think he had given up being a Twin
Francessa knows nothing. He claimed up through last week that it was Reyes or nothing for the Mets. Then he comes on one day and changes his tune without explaining why.
I didn’t say he knows stuff, just that that’s what he reported : )
I do think he must know something though. I mean, to do a complete 180 in a weeks time, I think he knows the Mets are at least in.
Good luck Twins.
Different idea. Ensure Church is part of the Mets deal then dump Monroe.
Monroe - .256/.303/.446 for $3.85mil
Church - .271/.348/.462 for $410,000
Church is 1-2yrs. younger and probably plays better D. Then if Gomez or FMart are part of the package, Church can DH.
‘08 payroll is currently at 71.35 mil for 25 players.
That is including the recent Cuddyer/Morneau signings and bonuses (2.75 and 6).
Santana (13.1) and Nathan (6) make up 19.1 of that 71.35 figure.
Francesa was played by Omar Minaya in the past few months. Maybe he is finally starting to realize it.
Santana’s numbers were horrible the last half of last season. His fastball hung and hitters took him deep. Trade him now and let the team that gets him take on the financial responsibilities.
Ellsbury, Lowrie, Masterson, Bowden/Kalish
…….
Or these talks from yesterday with the Angels…
Weaver, Wood, Willitz, and two more minor leaguers…
Unless the Mets give up both outfielders, and it’s a 5-1 or 6-2 deal The Mets prospects don’t do it for me.
Sorry. I’m a broken record.
trade him for 2 established pitchers
BC Beneke strictly baseball The Angels don’t want the financial burden of Santana they have probably the best pitching already or at least th top 3 staffs in all of baseball
Please be over soon.
For the health of my marriage, please.
BC, where did you see the Angels talk. I did see something last week on yahoo, that Santana was in LA a week ago “house shopping” with Tori Hunter, for whatever that is worth. Probably not much. That would be the best scenario for the Twins though if all of a sudden a team like that got in the mix. Could force the Mets to up their offer.
Both Hunter and Santana sold their homes here last season. Santana is on record about not wanting to pitch in an open air stadium in April or October in a cold weather state. He wants out. 4 Years $80M is a generous offer from the Twins, and the post earlier about him turning down a 5 Year $100M is true, then he really wants out. It’s best to get something in return than to let him go, like they did with Hunter.
BC i am with you i think the Mets guys are just too much of a risk. I do not see the Halos getting into it though but i would like either LA team get into it. A rotation with Weaver and Liriano would be a pretty nice one two punch.
Ok here is a different question. As Twins fans when you knew Santana was pitching that day, how confident were you? Did you notice a significant dropoff in stuff second half?
DS then he is kind of screwed because Shea/Citifield, Yankee stadium and Fenway are all freezing in April and October lol
Metro2008 yes i did notice a dropoff and alot of hr’s were hit
According to WFAN’s Mike Francesa, citing ‘the word,’ Johan Santana recently turned down a five-year, $100 million contract offer from the Twins, because he is still holding out for a seven-year, $140 million deal.
Metro2008-The one thing I did notice was the lack of sliders he threw the last 2 months. It just seemed to be Fastball & changeup. Johan has a very good slider but why the decline of using it I dont know.
There is no way someone is going to pay him that until FA.
Metro,
A fingernail problem cost him use of his slider late in 2007.
He will be lights-out again next year when he becomes a 3-pitc pitcher again.
Metro2008-Is Pelfrey aflyball out pitcher or does he induce grounders? Strikeout ratio? Just curious to know
JDW, again I saw Santana pitch maybe 2 times all year (once was his utter domination of my team) but I read somewhere that he had a fingernail situation that may have been why he didn’t throw as many sliders. All I know is, his second half truly scares me as a fan of a team that will be possibly giving up 4-5-6 top prospects and 7 years 140 million bucks
DS
Johan just bought a huge mansion in Minnesota. He may have sold his old house but he bought a new one. Now I don’t think this means he is going to be playing here but he did buy a new house. Maybe he can charter a jet with KG to come back to MN.
Metro
Johan’s second half was still better than the rest of the Mets pitchers. It is funny when people say he had a bad year last year but was second in K’s in the AL and still had a very good ERA
For $140 million, Santana can fly his house to the East Coast.
Sane - He will indeed be lights out again next year with the three pitches - until the fingernail splits again….
Metro - Yes he is, but it says something about him wanting to win a championship. I thought the Twins should look at the Diamondbacks as a potential trade partner but they got Haren instead. Santana made his list of potential teams and the Twins are trying to give him what he wants.
regarding your question about seeing a significant drop off, it was obvious, his era over the second half was over 5.
Dennis,
It is easier to prevent fingernail splitting than to repair it.
I hope it’s not true that he turned down a 5/100 contract. What more can you ask for from a team with a payroll of $70M? IF that’s true (I’m skeptical to say the least at this point), then we might be in trouble. By the sounds of this rumor, if he doesn’t get his 7/140 from the team we agree to a trade with, he’ll invoke the old NTC and we’re back to square one.
Can anyone say draft picks?
I just heard on “Mike and the Maddog” radio show out of NY , that the Twins just offered Santana a 5 year extention for $100 million - - and Santana turned it down !!! Anybody have any more details or heard the same thing ???
What is the truth to this rumor that Santana was offered $100 million/5 years from the Twins?
Can’t he bend a little on this money? No one will sign him for $140 upwards…
at least we know that finally this thing is gonna get done. Santana turned down the final offer from Minny of 5 yrs 100mil and it looks like he will be a Met by the end of the week!!!
Metsblog is a buzzin’…
Rumors there say deal has been reached (though, not the contract extension yet). Many comments indicate that an announcement could come this afternoon.
We’ll just have to hang tight and see what happens.
Does anyone have any details about the supposed $100m offer the Twins made, that Santana supposedly rejected.
Pelfrey is an extreme GB pitcher with his FB which gets great sink, he gives up almost NO homers, I still truly believe in Pelfrey, they scrapped his curve for a slider but didn’t give him even a full season to work on it.
im sorry,
i think that the whole thing with santana in the second half was that he just didnt want to be here anymore so he didnt do well.. he didnt care and wanted to do so bad that he got traded….
I would think that if the Twins upped their offer to a Twins pitcher that we wouldn’t be hearing it from a NY source.
shannon
“Mike and the Maddog” is your source? Try again.
Santana is a competitor.
He wouldn’t discard his slider because he wanted to get the crap hit out of him.
Trading him always was the best option.
Now it is the only option.
Don’t let him get to FA and join Indians or Tigers.
Santana, Sabathia and Carmona six times a year!!!
Just curious, if the Mets blogs are a blazzin’ what are they saying the final trade will look like?
sane,
i dont wanna see 18 losses from one team…
I just read that the Twins upped their offer to 5 at 100 mil, and Johan rejected that. I apologize if someone already posted this information.
Source: mlbtraderumors.com
“liondragon says:
January 29th, 2008 at 1:32 pm
im sorry,
i think that the whole thing with santana in the second half was that he just didnt want to be here anymore so he didnt do well.. he didnt care and wanted to do so bad that he got traded….”
That’s ridiculous, Lion.
At last check, no one really knew. Anything would be pure speculation until it’s announced.
The last offer was: Gomez/Humber/Mulvey/Guerra
Personally, I hope the Twins did better than that.
i hope the final deal is martinez church/gomez (please be gomez) guerra pelfrey mulvey..
thats the only deal i would take from the mets unless they put in reyes…
Wow. Santana scrapped his slider so he would pitch badly and get traded…
You know, the salary situation was going to come up anyway, so the Twins’ hand was going to be forced one way or another…
But don’t you think another team might want to see him actually perform well in order to want to trade for him?
That could be the most ridiculous statement uttered on this blog in the three months these trade talks have dragged on.
If the mets get Santana for a 5 player deal without a single MLB ready top talent.. I will be knocked of my seat. I will be totally shocked that Bill Smith would have past on the Hughes deal first and then the RedSox deal second to wind up with a Mets deal..
What does that tell you.. IT TELLS YOU, HE OBVIOUSLY OVERPLAYED HIS HAND!
Unless, Johan states.. I told him I wanted the Mets all along.. (which than why would it take so long)..
Johan refused teh 5/100 deal not because he is holding out for 7/120 but because face it.. HE DOES NOT WANT TO BE A TWIN!
Can’t blame him, if I was the Top pitcher in baseball, I would want to be on the big stage too.. And play the rest of my career with contenders.. which means Sox, Yanks, Mets…
Unreal.. Twins fans will be have the same team now, WITHOUT JOHAN.. not one single majorily talent.. !!! Gomez can’t hit MLB pitching and Fmart just finished 60+ games with a .270 average.. LAUGHABLE.. I have said it all along..
Twins are better off taking the risk of keeping him even if it means two prospects vs the Mets 4 B-level prospects..
I personally would rather have 1 year of Santana + 2 prospects then take the Mets 3 years away prospects@!
SHAME ON YOU BILL! TAKE ELLSBURY FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!
Oops can’t even get that .. why? The Yankees are out? Who has all the power in the deal now? RIght, Bosox…
Poor Bill, he is thinking .. throw enough sh-t against the wall and hope something sticks.
Good luck with your career in baseball BIll, (The man who could not work a deal with the best pitcher in baseball)
You have my vote for being nominated to “THE HALL OF SHAME”
Martinez and Gomez need to be the center of any trade to the Mets. Anything less is unacceptable.
WE ARE VERY CLOSE HERE BOYS!!!
reality,
I thought you quit on the Twins this morning.
How many chances do you get?
Presently…
Even Cerrone is trying to calm down the Metsblog. Here is the last paragraph of his most recent post:
…the point is, as we get closer and closer to a potential deal for santana, keep all of the above in mind…i mean, every body thinks they have the most trusted source, every one thinks they know what’s what…however, the fact is, there are only a few key people who actually know what they’re talking about and, if they’re worth their salt, they’re probably not saying a whole lot anyway – be it on or off the record…
…so, be patient, be skeptical and be on the lookout…
Reality Check is Off The Bandwagon!
Good, I dont care for Fare Weather fans
they get annoying!
lion,
It’s good to have your irrationality back.
If the Twins offered 5 years $100 million as an extension on this years $13.5 million and it was rejected by Santana then good riddance. If it wasn’t an extension but a tearing up of this years contract making it a true 5 year deal then I could see how Santana thinks he might do better, but I wouldn’t count on it.
Everyone going with the 5/100 rejected offer from WFAN’s source only referred to as ‘the word’ is far worse than running with a rumor from The Common Man on KFAN.
Calm down folks.
Reality Check
How would you have worked a deal for the best pitcher in baseball?
twinkiw pete,
just a thought 
reality,
If we ever have a suicide pact, I am not going first - you’ll back out.
Reality Check - I almost never get negative, but your last post was way beyond any common sense - you’re totally going against your name.
You’re criticizing FMart for hitting .270 in AA. HE WAS 18 YEARS OLD. Guys that age rarely play in AA, and those that succeed at all there at that age usually become stars.
You call the Mets prospects “B level”. That’s just silly. Guerra, Gomez and FMart would all be ranked ahead of ANY of the Twins prospects. All have REAL chances of becoming stars.
Then you criticize Smith for not working out a deal with Santana. Obviously, Santana either doesn’t want to be here or wants to insist on an outrageous contract that would be insane for the Twins.
Smith is clearly doing an outstanding job in every respect so far. I see him being executive of the year in a couple of years when the prospects develop and the Twins start their new run of titles.
Meanwhile, despite Santana’s protestations that he did not wish to play on the West Coast, the Los Angeles Dodgers’ similar statements that they are “tapped out for 2008″ and the advice that now-hitting coach Mike Easler told Gotham Baseball Magazine at the Winter Meetings that “Matt Kemp is goijg to be a star”, L.A. is creeping into the picture.
The long-running Johan Santana sweepstakes, which may be coming to a conclusion within days, appear now to be a two-team race between the Mets and Red Sox. While this derby has taken several twists and turns and has been difficult to predict, the Twins appear to be in more regular contact with the Mets in recent days, which could be an indication that they are leading as the finish line approaches.
Some baseball officials believe an agreement on the players could be struck as early as Tuesday. But even if the Twins and Mets agree on player compensation, the Mets will have to lure Santana with a multiyear deal. Santana has a full no-trade clause and the power to veto any deal.
Should the Mets reach an accord on the players with Minnesota, the Mets will try to entice Santana with a rich five-year offer. He is believed to be seeking a six-year deal, or even a seven-year deal, but the Mets will hope to offset that request with a high annual salary, which can be expected to be in the range of $22-to-25 million. They are said to be adamant in not wanting to go beyond five years for any pitcher.
The Mets’ latest offer is believed to include outfield prospect Carlos Gomez plus pitching prospects Phil Humber, Kevin Mulvey and Deolis Guerra. However, the Mets have balked at including a second top outfield prospect, Fernando Martinez. It’s still possible the Mets could enhance that four-man package another way, though.
There are no signs that the Twins are in regular contact with the Red Sox. Word is, Boston has stuck with its two proposals from weeks ago. One was for pitcher Jon Lester, outfielder Coco Crisp, pitching prospect Justin Masterson and infield prospect Jed Lowrie, and the other led with center feielder Jacoby Ellsbury but did not include Lester.
Meanwhile, the Yankees have told the Twins that they will now no longer include young pitcher Phil Hughes in any deal and appear to be just about out of the running now, if not completely out.
The Mets’ package is long on potential. Gomez is seen as a possible star, who would become a star or may only be a fourth outfielder. He has speed and a great arm, but some remain uncertain whether he will develop as a hitter. Martinez is more of a sure thing as a hitter but his upside isn’t as high, and while the Twins would like him, too, they could use a center fielder after losing Torii Hunter to free agency.
the “source” is some guy who is a friend of a friend that works for santana’s agent that text messaged somebody else…c’mon you have to do better than that before i’ll throw b.s. to the wolves. gomez/humber/mulvey/guerra . i have a very hard time believing that’s it?
heyman from si.
I already said this yesterday but I doubt all of you guys would have selected the package you got for AJ from the Giants and look how THAT turned out.
Hook,
I saw that too. IF that is the deal, it tells you that the Sox weren’t really players in this. Both of those offers would have filled our holes better (not great, but better) and should have trumped those four (without F-mart).
It’s all still a big IF…
C’mon Angels…this is no time to be out to lunch…time to swoop in with a last minute offer.
Santana trade happens before Spring Taining, Nathan is gone by the trade deadline.
THE ANGELS DO NOT WANT HIS OVERINFLATED SALARY AND PROBABLY HAVE ONE OF THE TOP3 PITCHING STAFFFS IN BASEBALL HAAAAAAAAAH!
Hey reality-check yourself.
No one is going to give him 7rs at 25 mill hahahahahahahaha to much Tequila Johan to much Tequila
with Santana rejecting the Twins final offer of 5/100 i think an announcement will be tomorrow that he’s been traded to the Mets, physical will be Thursday, press conference friday.
Metro - That’s a very good point. We all post here as though we completely know these prospects in every way - all their strengths and weaknesses. None of us know nearly as much as we claim to know about these guys. If the Twins see enough in players to make a deal then their opinion for me overrides that of anyone on here.
I remember when the A.J. trade was made. A lot of fans didn’t like it. After all, we were trading a top of the line catcher for a journeyman pitcher (Nathan), a young guy whose stock had fallen (Bonser), and a really young guy with a history of arm trouble. It was just those “cheap a**” Twins giving away a star again.
Jimmy,
That’s true, but so do the Sox and it didn’t keep them from poking their heads in.
While I don’t want Matthews Jr’s. contract…I bet they’d like to get some relief from it as well (at least some portion).
is it possible that we wont get a trade announced for a few days. Even if rumors swirl, there still may a be window to negotiate contract terms??? right
And i am tired of people reporting, “as early as today” or “tuesday”. Obviously if a deal didnt go down on monday/or the day before the next earlier day is tuesday. Its almost as meaningless as “a source for the twins” (or any team for that matter)
I have a friend who works in the PR department for the twins, and i have asked her numerous times, and she said that there is no way that anyone outside of the people Bill Smith talks to would even know about who calls on the phone, let a alone trade details.
It could have been worse!
Santana could have accepted the contract offer.
JDW, thanks for mentioning the SethSpeaks blog. That was a very interesting discussion between Seth and John Manuel of Baseball America.
Here are BA’s top 10 Mets prospects:
1. Fernando Martinez, of
2. Deolis Guerra, rhp
3. Carlos Gomez, of
4. Kevin Mulvey, rhp
5. Eddie Kunz, rhp
6. Brant Rustich, rhp
7. Philip Humber, rhp
8. Jon Niese, lhp
9. Nathan Vineyard, lhp
10. Robert Parnell, rhp
If this is the case. I have trouble believing Santana would have rejected the Twins offer so quickly.
From MLBTR:
SI.com’s Jon Heyman weighs in. He sees the Mets as the frontrunner, the Red Sox on the fringes, and the Yankees as nearly out of the running. The Mets are offering Gomez/Humber/Mulvey/Guerra but not Fernando Martinez. If they get Santana, the Mets will commit to only five years but with a high average annual value of $22-25MM.
Gomez is the centerpiece of this deal!!
also will include Mulvey/Guerra/Humber and a 5th player, possibly something mid-level (seems to be whats holding up the deal right now).. this deal will NOT include Fernando Martinez.
Now HERE is a link - note the absence of the 5/100 “offer -
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3220115
In keeping with a request from pitcher Johan Santana, the Twins have fielded offers from all interested parties by a mid-day Tuesday deadline, and Minnesota is expected to make a decision soon on whether to keep the left-hander or trade him, perhaps to the Mets — who appear to be strong front-runners — or the Red Sox, sources say.
According to Jon Heyman in a report for SI.com, if the Mets end up agreeing to a trade with the Twins for Johan Santana, they’re likely to offer him a no more than a five-year deal, but at a high annual salary in the range of $22-to-25 million.
Like Joel Sherman wrote this morning in the New York Post, Heyman notes that the race for Santana is down to teams: the Mets and Red Sox.
Mark they were faking interest. I think they were trying to make the Yankees give away all there new young guns by bidding against them and then when they saw that the Yankees were not being fooled in this cat and mouse game they pulled out. The only team dumb enough still left is the Mets and everyone better hope that the Mets don’t pull out of the Santana over inflated contract race. I have a feeling that the Twins could offer 25 mill for 4 years and he still wouldn’t take it. What the he_ _ does he want anyway an island. He doesn’t even play everday.
Sane - Good one!!!
Of course, a lot of people don’t agree with you. If I’m correct in my belief that Smith has a precise long term plan, then trading Johan fits perfectly into that plan, and gives us the best chance to contend long term. I think he’s trying to do with the Twins what the Wild are trying to do (though they have the benefit of a salary cap). In other words, create a process and a team that can contend over a long period of time. It seems like he rejects the Billy Beane theory of totally rebuilding every four years or so. He wants to maintain the process. And I actually think he can pull it off, especially with a Santana trade.
Mr. Smith will not have overplayed his had if he gets 5 top prospects. WWe don’t know that the Redsox or yankees won’t still get him still him.
Plus, there is porbably some interest to move him out of the american league.
You really can’t be a Twins fan with such degrading comments.
win Twins
If the Yankee’s decide to get back in this thing, they’ll need to include Hughes and Kennedy along with Cabrera.
Johan finally stepped in and put the pressure on the Twins to get this thing done.
Dennis
The problem is we have to sign these guys when they reach their prime, otherwise that puts a tremendous amount of pressure on a farm system to produce 5 or 6 starters every 3-4 years. I agree with what you are saying, but at some point for us to contend for the World Series and not just the playoffs, we have to sign these guys when they are at their best. Otherwise we do what we do now, stuck at above average.
The Wild is a little different because they are at the end of their contending rope for now…if it doesnt happen this year than it may not happen for a couple more years.
The difference between 5 years 100 and 5 years 125 is quite a chunk of change, and I would also suggest that Heyman means the Mets will only go 5 years guarenteed… easy to reach 6th and possibly 7th years I think would be involved.
Hawk,
Nice idea with Monroe vs Church.Here is the problem.First,the Twins traded for Monroe to bloster their lineup against righthanders.
Hunter was are top slugger (SLG & OPS) last year against righththanders.Cuddyer was next and then believe it or not Bartlett was third.After that their was a big drop off (among regulars) to Morneau.
In 2006,it was a better year and Hunter,Cuddyer,Morneau and Mauer had strong and/or decent SLG and OPS against RHP.
Since we have lost Hunter to FA,the Twins went out and added Young,Harris and Monroe.
Secondly,Church has splits the opposite of Monroe.He is strong against righthanders and is weaker against lefthanders.
Both could be useful.I think the Twins will keep Monroe because of his slugging against RHP.
Monroe 2007 against LHP:
129 AB .271/.309/.496 and .805 OPS
2005-2007 against LHP:
391 AB .281/.332/.481 and .813 OPS
Church 2007 against LHP:
118 AB .229/.316/.339 and .655 OPS
2005-2007 against LHP:
197 AB .259/.336/.406 and .742 OPS
Church 2007 against RHP:
352 AB .287/.360/.506 and .866 OPS
2005-2007 against RHP:
737 AB .282/.359/.497 and .856 OPS
Heyman just said on the radio that the Yankees are out and its between the Mets and Sox and HIS opinion is if its even that he will be sent to the Mets and out of the AL.
So somebody can sum this up quick (since the Mets prospects are a bit unfamiliar to me…I don’t follow NL that closely)
When would be the soonest that these 5 would start making their way into the lineup? I know Hughes/Ellsbury/Cabrera/Lester NOW is far more appealing as a PR move, but if the plan is to regroup after 07 and start building around Morneau/Cuddy/Mauer for ‘10 and beyond…what are we looking at?
Hope those Mets love each time he pitches cause it may cost them close to 1 mill each time he walks to the mound to start a game
Buster Olney baby!!!!! i love that guy.
Buster Olney is reporting the final bids are in.
Gooo mets!!!!
Sorry to do the “quote thing” (since I know it annoys some of you) but I want to quick grab this one comment…
The problem is we have to sign these guys when they reach their prime
If Morneau/Mauer/Cuddy contracts over the last few years have shown, that’s exactly what the Twins will be looking to do over the next few years.
I would expect Young next season to get a good deal if he is able to step in and produce.
“It’s led to speculation that a deal is close and Gomez is invovledl.”
Come on LEN, use your spell-checker.
(Just wanted to take the discussion in a different direction, because I’m as tired as everyone else about the endless speculation. Trade him already. Even if it’s to the Saints, or the Timberwolves.)
get over it folks he is history
post what the final bids are on here
If the Yankees really want Santana, it would be their interest to leak to reporters that they are out of it so that other teams don’t increase their bids.
Don’t trust any reporter’s source because the teams/sources are probably using the reporter.
What would Morneau had gotten as a contrat had he not signed a new contract with the MInnesota Frugals
Santana has “no interest” in resigning with the Twins
It is great i didn’t know that Mets fans know everything and that they all had some inside source. Wow Mets fans really think a little too high of themselves. Get over yourselves your team has no shot with out Santana and only a slightly better one with him. Your team is worthless and is so over hyped that it is just nuts.
Oh and Buster Onely will be on the Hartman show at 305 cant wait to hear what trash he can make up as he goes it should be funny. I bet he is so far off from what happens but he will never say how wrong he was. The guy doesn’t have a clue just like the Mets fans.
“SantanaMet57 says:
January 29th, 2008 at 2:21 pm
Johan finally stepped in and put the pressure on the Twins to get this thing done.”
How do you know this? You state your opinion as if it’s fact (gospel).
SantanaMet57 couldn’t agree w/you more
TJ: amen…
Gomez - a bit overwhelmed when he played last season. He could be ready this season, but I’m thinking more of a mid-season arrival. Known for his excellent speed and defense…
Guerra - very young - 6′5″- good frame - GREAT changeup, supposedly - I’m thinking 2009-2010
Humber - last season was his first full season off TJ surgery; pitched well in the hitter friendly PCL — could be ready to contribute now
Mulvey - 2006 draft pick out of Villanova - has pitched better than many experts expected; doesn’t have a big frame like a Pelfrey, nor does he have the dominant pitch, but has over-achieved at every level up until now
The Twins also have the option of keeping Santana into spring training, in the hope that a more aggressive market for the left-hander develops.
For instance: If Andy Pettitte’s involvement in the Roger Clemens case seems to be distracting the left-hander, it may be that Hank Steinbrenner, who has been the most prominent member of the organization in favor of making a Santana trade, could spur the team to give the Twins the package they have requested, including pitchers Phil Hughes and Ian Kennedy. Or if the Red Sox suffered multiple pitching injuries, they might push for a Santana deal.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3220115
There is only one team in New york it is the Yankees. How ya like them apples
Maybe that’s the real reason behind the Yanks and Sox talking about a trade for Johan. To find out who the Twins thought were any good in their farm systems. LOL
I think it is time to brace for disappointment. Poor Bill had his hands tied with this mess, and I think he did the best he could. Time to cross the fingers and hope we got the best we could.
The new ballpark is going to be a hitters park. Leaving me to believe that Pelfry may be a better option than Humbe.
Did you guys here Pohlad traded him for land in Utah. Yes, that is correct, land in Utah and it is somewhere around 2500 acres
Humbe = Humber
Latest scoop at http://www.twinsrumors.com is that Martinez is not included. That would be a bummer.
From Metsblog.com:
”
…posted by Matthew Cerrone…
In a report to ESPN.com, in which he states a decision could come as early as today, Buster Olney writes…
“Some officials engaged in the talks strongly believed that Santana will land with Mets. Early Tuesday, Mets executives are quietly hopeful that they could land the left-hander with a package of players, so long as the Twins backed off their insistence that shortstop Jose Reyes be included in the deal.”
According to Jon Heyman in a report for SI.com, if the Mets end up agreeing to a trade with the Twins for Santana, they’re likely to offer him no more than a five-year deal, but at a high annual salary in the range of $22-to-25 million.
Interestingly, according to WFAN, Santana recently turned down a five-year, $100 million contract offer from the Twins, because he is still holding out for a seven-year, $140 million deal.
…so, if heyman is correct, the Mets offer would be only a few million dollars more per year than what he rejected from the Twins…from what i can gather, this is because he has zero interest in re-signing with the Twins, who can now go to their fans and say, “Hey, we tried.”…at least that’s how i see it…
Like Joel Sherman wrote this morning in the New York Post, Heyman notes that the race for Santana is down to teams: the Mets and Red Sox.
…thanks to Jason B for the link…”
Judging by the conversation on metsblog right now, there could be rioting in NY if the Mets don’t get Santana.
They have themselves convinced that he’s being fitted for his Mets jersey as we speak. This thing is far from over.
And regardless of Santana’s interest level with this team, he is under contract for one more year and he might have to warm to the idea of pitching here a little while longer…
yes, I think Pelfrey is the better pitcher.
If somehow the Mets are able to keep Church, Martinez and Pelfrey, they will be very happy.
What I would take for the Santana trade.
The Yankees have the most flexibility in talent. They can beat or in the least match the Mets offer easily.
I’d call the Yankees for:
(since they took Hughes off the table)
1) Kennedy (MLB ready pitcher with great potential)
2) Cabreba (MLB ready CF great defense mediocre offense potential)
3) Jackson (B+ Prospect MLB ready within a year)
4) Horne (B+ Prospect MLB ready very close)
Utah. 2,500 acres of prime land in Utah. You ever feel like you live in whoville and pohlad is the grinch
T
I agree, i just am not sure if this current plan produces championships or winning seasons.
WE are paying for guys in their prime, but how much would morneau have cost if he had another big year last year? His deal is huge but it could have been bigger with more consistent numbers. And cuddyer is great, but he isnt the kind of “prime” player i was talking about. Will we pay D. Young if he has a couple big years? What if he asks for Morneau’s contract? What about liriano if he has a big couple of years? Mauer? Any of our young pitchers…
Should we sign them all? Can we sign them All? Obviously all IF’s, but can we afford a Championship, and will we afford one? I am no economics major, but at some point dont revenues cap off?
We can pay 50-52% of revunes and compete but this long lasting “dynasty”(my word) speak seems a little more dificult.
Todd Anthony,
are you a size 40-42? if so, would you consider sending me your Santana jersey so i can ROCK IT OUT at Shea stadium this year..
I seriously doubt the Yankees would go four-deep in prospects for a guy they’d have to pay 25 mil./yr to, as well. The Mets are desperate…the Yankees are not. That’s the difference.
If this deal does go down with the mets, the rubes on here will go crazy. Instantly, mets fans will love Santana and think the people they gave up were suspect. Twins fans will be angry becasue we got kids.
Truth be told, this deal wont be measurable until 2010 or so… we we all need to take a deep breath.
Of course if the Dodgers swoop in and take him off the Mets lap, there may be an uprising in NY.
Reality,
Suggest that Yankee trade to BS.
I’m sure you two are still tight after he read your last post.
Delmon Young jerz,
get with the program, this thing is in the 11th hour, practically a done deal. were gonna be partyin in Times Square like its new years eve baby!!!
If the Mets don’t land Santana the fans are going to be going nuts. As for Horne, I heard from a writer the Twins are among a group of teams who HATE his arm action and has already had one major arm surgery and doesn’t trust his motion….. Levelle…. cmon man don’t let the NY writers and Olney have all the fun! whats the scoop!
The Twins should and will get Martinez/Church/Guerra/anyone else.
RyanW - If the Dodgers sweep in and take Santana, there will be an uprising in my pants.
Bring on Kershaw and Kemp, please…
frugal ball and Pohlad runs the ball of frugosity
Reality Check- you need a reality check. The Yankees have maintained since october that Austin Jackson is not an option. He was on the first no-trade list with Joba and Cano.
Austin Jackson is not available… nor is Jose Tabata.
I prefer any deal with Hughes and Cabrera. Hughes gives us an arm and Cabrera is a solid soon to be veteran player at 23. Three crazy good arms in the Twins outfiled, through in Marquez and someone else.
no La Teams cause the dodgers are tapped and angels aren’t stupid
wrathchild… lol, touche…
Of course if the Dodgers swoop in and take him off the Mets lap, there may be an uprising in NY.
———————-
Right there with you….c’mon LAD or LAA
*throw in sorry
wrathchild - indeed, a for-real lol…
Let us dream Jimmy, let us dream.
If fantasies were realities, the Dodgers would offer Kemp/Kershaw/LaRoche right now, and I’d leave work to drink myself stupid in celebration
Jimmy,
Pohlad would never trade for that land in Utah…he’d just foreclose on it.
C’mon get realistic.
As a Twins fan (whatever happens with the Santana saga) I would like to offer my advice to Reality Check: Put yourself (and us) out of your misery and end it now…………life is obviously not worth living in your world.
If we are going to make up Yankee trades, why not go for it? How about Jeter, Wang and ARod - and the Yankees pick up the salaries!
Buster Olney just updated Santana situation on ESPN.com. Apparently, the Twins have all of the offers in, and are going to decide. Armegeddon is upon us.
Take Ellsbury for the love of god!!!!!
…Update…3:50 pm…
According to Buster Olney at ESPN.com:
“Baseball officials involved in the Johan Santana talks say the Mets have the best offer on the table, as the Twins looked to honor a request by the pitcher to resolve the situation.”
Baseball officials involved in the Johan Santana trade talks say the Mets have the best offer on the table, as the Twins looked to honor the pitcher’s request to resolve the situation.
If Minnesota opts to trade the two-time Cy Young Award winner rather than keep him and he works out a new contract extension, Santana could fill the hole at the front of the Mets’ rotation.
The Red Sox also made offers, while the Yankees appeared to be out of the Santana talks altogether. But in the middle of the day Tuesday, Mets officials were hopeful they were the front-runners for the All-Star lefty, with an offer that included center fielder Carlos Gomez, pitcher Phil Humber and two other minor leaguers. It is not known yet whether the Mets have fashioned any offers around their best prospect, Fernando Martinez.
The agent for Santana, Peter Greenberg, would not comment on whether he has been told the Mets have worked out a trade for his client, or about Santana’s request for resolution.
from espn.com
Matt Cerrone says:
…like i said yesterday, santana and his agents made a request over the weekend to get this process moving, but i don’t feel it was anything formal or threatening…well, apparently it was…nice work, johan…way to be the boss…
Careful Unreality, according to some your bordering on identify theft and defamation of character. Craig might appear and sue you, lickety-split.
ITS GO TIME!!!!
Mets only want to go 5 years on Johan?????
http://mlbfleecefactor.com/2008/01/29/santana-update-sox-vs-mets/
Amen Iceman,
Take either Sox offer.
Matt Cerrone from MetsBlog.com is the man!!!!!
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2008/01/29/its_still_a_no_decision/
From this morning, but from the Boston perspective. Interesting to see a Boston source saying that the Lester and Ellsbury deals are on the table. Also, they listed Ryan Kalish in there as an option…
If the Mets offer is Gomez/Guerra/Mulvey and Humber, the Twins may just take the standing Lester deal from the Red Sox.
Santana would be significant lefthanded upgrade over Lester, Crisp is excess. So really they would replace Lester with a better option and trade two prospects (and pay $$$$) for 5 years of domination of the AL East.
It just makes too much sense for the Sox, what they give up is much easier to replace than the Mets…
i dont think bs is going to do iy cause f-mart isnt in it…..
Buster Olney doesn’t know anything and he is never right. He is an opinion writer that has never been in the know. He doesn’t have sources better then the next writer and he doesn’t have a clue. Your going to tell me that Bill Smith called Buster to inform him about what the offers were. It should be fun listening to his juke on KFAN in a few second
Baseball officials involved in the Johan Santana trade talks say the Mets have the best offer on the table, as the Twins looked to honor the pitcher’s request to resolve the situation.
The Red Sox also made offers, while the Yankees appeared to be out of the Santana talks altogether. But in the middle of the day Tuesday, Mets officials were hopeful they were the front-runners for the All-Star lefty, with an offer that included center fielder Carlos Gomez, pitcher Phil Humber and two other minor leaguers. It is not known yet whether the Mets have fashioned any offers around their best prospect, Fernando Martinez.
He is going to boston!!! Because that is where we send everyone to win championships. Even if they choke in playoff situations ala Randy Moss. The fine people of Boston somehow make sure with the help or without the help that the previous minnesota p[layers get a ring
lavelle? we have updates from every corner of the blog world??? where are you with the truth? ugghhh
you said it jimmy….
ortiz,randy moss, soon to be garnett, varitek…
Olney reported Beltran was remaining an Astro an hour before the Mets signed him lol
nonsense bloggers need to removed or blocked
LaVelle. it isn’t first amendment rights on a blog…
win Twins!
Mets’ give up 5 for Santana
I don’t think Olney has a clue either. The man I trust LEN III…give us some love LEN, we need something accurate.
I’m sick of Matthew Cerrone posting his guess work as reality. Every post is about how he’s been predicting every development, how Santana wants to be a Met first and foremost, and how Santana has demanded a trade (to the Mets). Give me a break, dude. You have no idea, just like everyone else.
If we do trade him to the Mets and don’t get Martinez, Gomez, and Guerra, I’ll be disappointed. I think Gomez will be better than people give him credit for but just like with FMart and Guerra we don’t really know. Do something unexpected, Bill Smith!!
Yeah, the Red Sox would be smart to do a Lester/Crisp trade, but this is about who the Twins FO prefer. And it appears that the Sox offer might not offer enough upside like the Mets deal could. Plus, the Twins will have earned some immunity as far as I’m concerned by trying to sign Johan to a reasonable deal and when that failed, they picked up players who will take a few years to judge. This won’t be a knee-jerk reaction trade. Time will tell!
Hey TJ,
he did break the Matsuzaka things, along with a couple of other moves the last two years. Therefore, his success rate is more like 1% than 0% LOL
Go Boston!!!!! McHale is finalizing the paperwork as we speak
What if the Twins take the Mets offer, then the Mets and Johan do not settle on an offer and the deal falls apart?
That would be bad for the Twins… real bad.
Buster Olney doesn’t know anything.
He is often wrong. As I mentioned before, nothing in the story supported the headline that the deal would be done today. It was all recycled crap from previous stories, and much of it had been explicitly denied by the Twins. I think his editor wanted something, he didn’t have anything, so he threw together a quilt of old stories (including the debunked Reyes rumor) and went with it. Then his editor wrote a headline after the fact and threw it up there so ESPN could scoop Fox. It’s one of the worst pieces of trash I’ve read in this whole sordid Santana saga.
I would rather see Santana leave for draft picks than the current (alleged) offer of Gomez/Guerra/Mulvey/Humber. It better get better than that if we trade him to the Mets.
I like the way Smith has handled this. For all of you haters who say he should have taken the Hughes deal, or the Lester deal, or the Ellsbury deal, or whatever deal — there is no proof that those offers were ever officially extended. If all this talk of the Yanks and Sox only in it to goad the other on is true, then neither were ever really serious about the trade anyway.
Smith is going to get the best he can for Santana and if he’s not satisfied, Santana will pitch here. I don’t think he’ll settle for mediocrity just to make a deal. You think his price tag is extreme now? Wait until he is a FA and 29 teams have full access to offer him $200 million, instead of just 3. And they’ll be much more willing if they don’t have to offer talent to boot.
Olney is a tool. LENIII is the man. Let’s get this sh*t done.
From……http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3220115
Santana, who completely controls his fate because of the full no-trade clause he possesses, asked the Twins to make a decision, which is why Minnesota imposed the deadline for offers from the interested teams.
This has been my point all along, Santana controls this more than Bill Smith. Santana asked for it to be settled soon so Bill has his deadline. If Santana was willing to wait, then Bill could continue playing the hand. Santana just “Called”.
My new name is great.
wrathchild,
LMAO
That’s an interesting question Delmon…which is move valuable, 1 year of Johan + 2 picks, or Gomez/Guerra/Mulvey/Humber? Obviously that’s a very very disappointing Mets offer, and who knows what could happen during the 2008 season with Johan…maybe he decides to accept 5yr/100 mil if the season gets off to a good start?
I could go either way, I think.
If I was in the Mets FO, I would have leaked to Olney that the Mets had the best offer on the table… that helps appease the Mets fans if they Twins take another offer.
Omar can say “we had the best offer, it wasn’t my fault they didnt take it.”
Oh my God!!!! McHale has forgotten that he is only in Basketball and has hijacked the paperwork to Santana’s contract. He is making a mad dash to Boston aboard Danny Ainges private jet. Somebody get him out of there and save us
Delmon,
It’s not as simple as you make it out to be.
I think this is a situation where Johan wants to know where he is going to play this season and wants it to be settled before he reports to camp. Now, I’m sure Johan has a preference of where to go to, but I’m not completely convinced of where that may be. If a trade can’t be worked out, then yes, he will spend the season as a Twin and inevitably leave via free agency. Yes, it will net two draft picks, but they will likely never amount to a Carlos Gomez, Guerra, Mulvey or Humber. Sad to say…but it’s the truth.
Michael Kay is reporting Santana will be traded to the Mets…. but he is the voice of the Yankees and has his own agenda so we shall see.
lester,crisp,masterson,lowire, kalish, pull the trigger.
twinkie,
good post
I think I actually like Ellsbury/Lowrie/Masterson better than the Met offer currently being reported…never thought I’d say that.
Looking more and more that the Mets are the Winners in the Santana Sweepstakes. According to the BA list of Mets prospects we would be getting their overall #2 Guerra, #3 Gomez, #4 Mulvey and #7 Humber. If they threw in Pelfry that would probably work. Especially since neither the RedSox and Yanks seem to be out of it.
After the report of the new Twins offer and supposedly Santana’s rejection it is time to move him.
I still would like to do the RedSox more if it was out there.
Olney is on KFAN talking more and more like the Mets as well
Twins agree to deal Santana to Mets for prospects
The New York Mets have a reached a deal to acquire two-time Cy Young Award winner Johan Santana from the Minnesota Twins.
The New York Mets have agreed to a trade for two-time Cy Young Award winner Johan Santana, giving up four prospects to acquire the left-handed ace of the Minnesota Twins, according to two high-ranking Twins officials with knowledge of the talks and a person close to Santana.
The deal is pending the Mets and Santana reaching agreement on a six- or seven-year contract extension and that Santana passes a physical; they have been granted a 48 to-72-hour window to do so. Santana has a no-trade clause that he will waive if agreement is reached on a contract extension.
The Mets paid a high price in prospects to land Santana, agreeing to send the Twins outfielder Carlos Gomez and pitchers Phil Humber, Deolis Guerra and Kevin Mulvey.
The deal would give the Mets the much-needed ace at the front of their rotation. Santana won the American League Cy Young Award in 2004 and 2006 and is 93-44 lifetime. He went 15-13 with a 3.33 ERA for the Twins last season. Santana has struck out at least 235 batters each of the past four seasons.
While the deal drains much of the talent out of the Mets’ farm system, they did manage to hold on to top prospect Fernando Martinez, an outfielder. Instead, they headed the package with Gomez, who turned 22 in December and spent 58 games with the Mets last year.
hearing on KFAN that a deal has been finalized…
call yanks tell, them hes going to bosox . they dont care pull taht trigger, its a good package.
USA Today has a deal done with mets
SANTANA TRADED:
Not excited about the deal… if it is true..
alright well it sounds like it’s done. what do we think?
Twinkie -
How can you predict how the 2009 draft will go or how those Mets players will pan out? If all we’re getting from the trade is a set of fliers, I’ll take a year of Johan and the fliers from the draft.
Smith will not make a deal just to make a deal. He is smarter than that and has people around him who are smarter than that. Unless he wants to guarantee that Santana doesn’t sign in the AL as a FA next year…
This is a horrible deal.
Bob Nightengale is a Twin Cities guy…
wow, this would be disapointing… with no Martinez AND 4 player deal AND no ML ready players…
Pohlad licks the sweat off a dead mans baseball’s
I really can’t wait until this is all over and the Twins can be out of this East Coast celebrity circus crap and they can continue to quietly build their contender.
How is this deal better than offering Santana what he wants, then dealing him under contract?
Really disappointing. Sounds like they took the 3rd best offer out there. Gomez sounds like he could be pretty decent, but I think we had a CHANCE this season with Yankees offer. Ick.
Wow. That is not very much for Mr. Cy young.
we just robbed the Twins.
What if the Mets offer the same as the Twins. Santana rejects that offer and then signs with the Twins.
Alright begin the Joe Nathan rumors!!!
Jimmy . . . I’m not faulting Pohlad here. Read that Santana today turned down 5 years/100 million. That’s rediculous. Let him go . . . but get some damn good players in return. Sounds like we didn’t even get their #1 prospect. What about cutting out one or two of the Mets prospects and landing Church?
just reported on KFAN that the Twins and Mets have come to a deal, and the Twins will be gettings screwed over for Johan Santana… not taking Ellsbury, Lowrie, Masterson, and Kalish
IS A WORLD CLASS BAD DECISION
considering it it’s Humber, Gomez, Guerra, and Mulvey.
No Pelfry, No Martinez, No Church
Bill Smith if this is true lost a huge amount of respect from me.
How many pitching prospects do the Twins need? After this trade (if it happens with the Mets) who can they move to get someone? Can we call up Baltimore for Bedard?
This is very, very disappointing.
Uggh.
No Martinez = Bad Trade
Buster picked a good time to be right…
Well, I guess we can all hope that they can’t sign Santana. Then we can do all this again!
How messed up is it that the USA Today broke the story?
“Coomerguy says:
January 29th, 2008 at 3:24 pm
Well, I guess we can all hope that they can’t sign Santana. Then we can do all this again!”
Why the hell would you want that?
awful trade, the redsox was much better, bill smith failed us.
NOOoooo….
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2008-01-29-twins-mets-santana_N.htm?loc=interstitialskip
Didn’t even get Martinez!
Well, Delmon…it looks like the deal is already done.
And how can you say they are taking fliers? How do you know what these four players will be? I take these four players over two draft pick each and every time. Period.
Why wouldn’t you want that Todd? If the Mets can’t sign him then maybe we can actually get a good deal for Santana instead of… this.
Totally Bummed!!
Maybe now we can get the truth about the Red Sox deals, or if Johan completely hand cuffed the Twins FO.
This trade is an embarrassment to the organization. I’m ashamed of the FO, there is no point in trading for garbage like Mulvey and Humber. Are we honestly supposed to expect them to surpass Baker/Slowey/Blackburn/Perkins for rotation spots? At least we can have a championship caliber AAA team…
No Pelfry, No Martinez…wow. Both Sox deals and the alleged Yanks deal were better. The only player with a high ceiling is Guerra and I have no faith in him.
I DID read that Martinez doesn’t have the CEILING that Gomez does. But Gomez isn’t going to be ready this year.
Twins agree to deal Santana to Mets for prospects
[quote]
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2008-01-29-twins-mets-santana_N.htm
The New York Mets have agreed to a trade for two-time Cy Young Award winner Johan Santana, giving up four prospects to acquire the left-handed ace of the Minnesota Twins, according to two high-ranking Twins officials with knowledge of the talks and a person close to Santana.
The deal is pending the Mets and Santana reaching agreement on a six- or seven-year contract extension and that Santana passes a physical; they have been granted a 48 to-72-hour window to do so. Santana has a no-trade clause that he will waive if agreement is reached on a contract extension.
[b]The Mets paid a high price in prospects to land Santana, agreeing to send the Twins outfielder Carlos Gomez and pitchers Phil Humber, Deolis Guerra and Kevin Mulvey.[/b]
The deal would give the Mets the much-needed ace at the front of their rotation. Santana won the American League Cy Young Award in 2004 and 2006 and is 93-44 lifetime. He went 15-13 with a 3.33 ERA for the Twins last season. Santana has struck out at least 235 batters each of the past four seasons.
While the deal drains much of the talent out of the Mets’ farm system, they did manage to hold on to top prospect Fernando Martinez, an outfielder. Instead, they headed the package with Gomez, who turned 22 in December and spent 58 games with the Mets last year.[/quote]
Are you kidding me? No F*cking Fernando Martinez in this deal. Fire Bill Smith…
not one person here knows for sure what ANY of the other offers really were. Hard to knock Bill Smith for something you know nothing about.
Wow, I am generally an optimist, but I cannot put a good spin on this deal.
Hey wrathchild - we can only home they play the Saints!
Payroll now down to 58.25 for 24 players - pick a prospect and add 400k…
BC-
I agree. No Pelfrey, No Martinez, No Church, No Heilmann????
NOW we can say Bill Smith overplayed his hand. All he ended up with is bubble gum and a bucket of baseballs.
I’m okay with Gomez and Guerra but Mulvey and Humber will be trying to crack the AAA rotation in June. Weird deal.
Good luck Johan and thank you for your awesome displays of pitching while with the Twins.
if this trade is for real and not just a rumor. bill smith just made a huge mistake. terry ryan, why did you have to leave us?
Johan gave them a deadline to trade him by today or he wouldn’t waive his clause. We got the best deal, we could get by sending him to the National League. Better than draft picks bring on the New Park!
Again, I am not as disapointed that Martinez is not in the deal as I am:
1) That it dosent include 5 players
2) That it dosent include Pelfrey
3) That it does include Phil Humber
Gross… and if true, disapointing.
BC- I do not believe Kalish was ever offered in an Ellsbury deal, the only confirmed Ellsbury deals only had 3 players in it- Lowrie and Masterson… still that might be a better deal.
This trade is like going limp right before you close the deal.
I can’t believe that this is what the Twins are going to settle on. I don’t mind them dealing with the Mets but I think they could have done much better than the 4 players being mentioned. How many pitching prospects does this give the Twins now?
This is a good deal for the Twins. Guerra will be a stud, Gomez will help us forget about Hunter (and thank goodness we won’t have to see Span in the lineup.)
BS got schlonged
was it worth taking less from the Mets to get Santana out of the NL???
Now the Twins are stocked with young pitching can BS do anything with it will be the tell tale sign of what kind of GM he will be.
Young pitchers
Liriano
Baker
Boof
Slowey
Blackburn
Perkins
Guerra
Mulvey
Humbre
Plus what you get for Nathan during the season since a losing team doesn’t need a closer
awful,booooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
The Red Sox changed both offers it was either Crisp and Lester or Ellsbury, Lowrie and Masterson… I think the Red Sox and Yankees both wanted the Mets to get him. So once the Mets got involved they both backed down offers so the Mets would win.
I do find it funny though that the people on these blogs (myself included) were calling for Terry Ryan’s head around July 31 last summer, and now everyone’s gonna do the same for Bill Smith.
I blame Santana over Smith. Did anyone else read that the Twins upped their offer to 5 years, $100 million, and Johan still refused it?
Santana wants to get paid, and he wants a ring. He wants no part of Minnesota… and he screwed the Twins over with his impatience and his demands.
Bill Smith has made a few decent moves and I’m not ready to give up on him yet. Let’s just hope he blows out his arm and needs Tommy John.
Again dealing Santana was okay with me but not for this deal. Let’s pray Bob has the players wrong.
I would have at least like to have seen Pelfrey instead of Humber. Pelfrey could have at least cracked the rotation this year. This trade definitely suggests 2008 is officially rebuilding year, as the rotation is going to be laughable (Liriano won’t be a starter this year I think). Maybe there’s a plan to trade excess pitching for something a little more valuable?
BS got the schlong duck dong. SCHLONG!!!!!!!!
This deal reminds me of an episode of “Deal or No Deal”. Bill Smith just passed up a great offer from the Banker and then picked the Million Dollar Case. Ick. KFAN just says that Gomez probably starts the season with the Twins in center field. Hmmm. Anyone get why Delmon Young doesn’t start in Center? Kubel/Monroe in Left?
BS better spin some ptichers into hitter real quick…
- Gomez and Guerra will be great
- Disappointed on Martinez
- Pelfrey and Heilman are overrated, so get over that part
We just got served
Gomez will be a solid MLB ready centerfielder with great speed, good arm, and I would argue a higher ceiling than Ellsbury. Now we could argue all day without a winner as to whether Guerra/Humber/Mulvey > Lester/Masterson, but the fact of the matter is we won’t know until a few years.
Lets not forget the guy we traded wasn’t protected in a rule V draft and he later wins the Pitching Triple Crown in total numbers between 2004-2007.
Yes Hughes and Lester and Buckholz all look good, but they are all still prospects and NONE of them are safe bets at succesful careers. Chances are half of them will get injured and never play a meaningful career. IN that respect the 3 pitchers from the mets may be better than the 2 from the sox with Gomez and Ellsbury a wash.
Terry Ryan is who to pin this debacle on… if he would have listened to Santana last year when he was basically begging for an extention, we would have kept our valuable commodity instead of watching it devalue before our eyes.
BS got the royal Schlonging
The A.J. trade in reverse ! Maybe we can trade Bill Smith to the Giants? I was just starting to like and respect the guy.
Terrible. Truly terrible.
God almighty; some of you people are f*cking amazing. We can’t sign Johan, so in your minds you’d rather see him pitch in ‘08, just to satisfy your desire to see Santana pitch in a Twins uniform ONE MORE TIME, and then take two draft picks. It makes no F*CKING sense.
GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEADS!!!!
Steve from Fridley said it best: if you want to get mad at anyone, get mad at Johan. HELL, get mad at Terry Ryan for not making a deal last year despite Santana’s many overtures to sign an extension.
Yeah, how about everybody stops getting all over Smith. He’s made a bunch of great moves so far, and now you’re going to get all over him because he was forced to trade the best pitcher in baseball? Ryan was the one that started the whole mess by not talking with him earlier.
The Sox and Yankees didn’t need him all that much, and if Santana won’t take 5-years and $100 million, then the Twins can’t afford him.
peter gammons just reported the deal is done. he called the package “pretty tame” compared to the offers they had at the winter meetings.
Twins Rumors has a quick review of Nightengale’s interview on KFAN moments ago:
“RyanW says:
January 29th, 2008 at 3:36 pm
Terry Ryan is who to pin this debacle on… if he would have listened to Santana last year when he was basically begging for an extention, we would have kept our valuable commodity instead of watching it devalue before our eyes.”
That’s exactly what I’m saying…
See what all you who doubted me get???
BILL SMITH IS A FRIGGIN MORON!!! FIRE HIM NOW>
HE WAITED FOR THIS? WHEN HE COULD’VE HAD WHAT THE YANKS OR SOX WERE OFFERING?
OMG, NICE JOB SMITH YOU PHUCKING LOSER>
Gomez hasn’t shown any signs of being great yet… No plate discipline (3:1 K:BB ratio), and a career OBP of .329 and an average of .273?
He batted .232 over 58 games with the Mets last year… if the guy can’t hit minor league/NL East pitching, how’s he going to fair against Sabathia, Carmona, Verlander, Bonderman, etc.? I’d rather have had Ryan Church… he’s no leadoff man but at least he’s proven he can hit major league pitching, and hit it pretty well, especially considering half his games were in RFK…
It is time BS ponies up and calls up Baltimore and see what they want for Bedard. Or start calling around for hitters. The more and more it sounds like Santana F’d the Twins FO. We now have over 10+ young pitchers. Time to make a move.
Seriously, take your angst out on Terry Ryan. He seriously screwed the pooch last year by sitting on his ass and not doing anything. Best GM MY ASS.
BC and Hawk,
I agree with your comments.Did not even get the Mets#1 prospect.No major league ready player…unless you consider Gomez and his short stint.
And not taking Hughes or Ellsbury…if they were offered?
“Reality Check says:
January 29th, 2008 at 3:39 pm
See what all you who doubted me get???
BILL SMITH IS A FRIGGIN MORON!!! FIRE HIM NOW>
HE WAITED FOR THIS? WHEN HE COULD’VE HAD WHAT THE YANKS OR SOX WERE OFFERING?
OMG, NICE JOB SMITH YOU PHUCKING LOSER>”
Dude, seriously…quiet please.
“Yeah, how about everybody stops getting all over Smith. He’s made a bunch of great moves so far, and now you’re going to get all over him because he was forced to trade the best pitcher in baseball?”
UHM, HE TRADED THE BEST PITCHER IN BASEBALL FOR GARBAGE!!! WHICH YOU WON’T KNOW FOR 3 - 4 YEARS BECAUSE YOU HAVE NOT ONE MAJOR LEAGUE READY PLAYER!!
ALL I HAVE TO SAY TO BILL THE IDIOT!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAAHHAHAHAHHAHHAAHHAAHHAH
WHAT A JOKE!
I ONLY PRAY JOHAN VETO’s IT!
couldn’t agree more Ryan W.
On Gomez (from Baseball America):
Strengths: A true five-tool athlete, Gomez has game-changing speed and a well above-average arm, tools that help make him a premium defender in center field. He also has excellent bat speed that leads to projections of at least average power, if not more. Scouts said Gomez brought needed energy to the Mets
Good points Steve. I wouldn’t have taken Church over Gomez, but I would have taken Church over Mulvey or Humber, possibly both. Wonder if it was even an option, though.
If Gomez is mentally strong, and can overcome some rough spots, I think he should start CF this year. The rotation is not near strong enough this year to compete. If Gomez is mentally weak, MLB struggles could damage him long term, and he should stay in AAA another season.
Can anyone speak to Gomez’s mental toughness?
Reality Check
your a classy individual!
I think Mets Fans are doing this sh*t by sending emails to the press like Olney and USA Today Bob Nighthengale so they could get Johan thinking The Mets had the best offer.
Reality Check, it’s been less than a half-hour since the move was made, and for that matter it isn’t even official.
We don’t know what we’re getting when you get four prospects. How about we stop judging when we haven’t even taken a look at these guys…
BC,
Couldn’t agree more. Hopefully we’ll get the true story on the Sox final offers, but Smith could have closed those deals before Christmas.
I also wonder how much Santana used his power to end this. He was in complete control…and though he appeared to be letting the Twin’s work…he may have screwed us at the last minute.
Reality Check = Kid at Toys R’ Us whose mother just said “no” to a new Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle.
Is La Velle okay?
Carlos Gomez=Denard Span
Wow. I think that both the Sox and Yanks will be relieved. The Mets get their man and get some credibility back (plus some space on the back pages of the tabloids). Lets see if the Mets will give him the contract that he wants. Santana gets the money + gets to pitch in the NL. Start lining up the Cy Youngs. The give up 2 prospects + 2 c level marginal prospects.
The Twins (at first glance) get hosed. Maybe Guerra becomes a stud. Big maybe. He was shut down last year with a tight shoulder. Lets see if Gomez can start hitting.
Scoreboard:
Sox - Win
Yanks - Win
Mets - Win
Santana - Win
Twins - Lose (maybe a push if Guerra can become a #2 starter & Gomez becomes an above average CF). Perhaps the other 2 guys can pitch middle relief in a couple of years.
The Twins still need a lead off hitter.
Alright
Gomez - CF
Harris - 2B
Mauer - C
Cuddy - RF
Morneau - 1B
Young - LF
Kubel/Monroe - DH
Lamb - 3B
Everett - SS
Liriano, Baker, Slowey, Boof, Mulvey/humber
whats so bad about that?
Young and talented!
Guerra enters rotation end of 2009
This is a horrible deal, blah, blah, blah.
Remember when AJ for Nathan, Liriano and Boof was a horrible deal?
HOLY CRAP! Thank you Mr. Smith. You are so afraid of getting fleeced by the Yanks and Sox you gave us the best pitcher in baseball for an “A” ball pitcher with a 4.10 era, two #4s, and a .270 hitter who’s years away from the majors (in any real organization, we didn’t even have to give up F-Mart!! Heck we didn’t even have to give up Ryan Church!! (I thought we were dead when I saw Lester and Ellsbury still on the table) ‘Tis good to deal with a rookie GM!
Well, MetsBlog.com (a blog with sources) said that people close to Santana indicated that Johan wanted to go to the NL…
Gomez could be a leadoff hitter but he has to hit above .232 in the majors to do that.
And so it seems, many are not happy with the trade….. At least it’s better than two stinkin draft picks. The Twins now have an extra $13 miilion to spend on another pitcher perhaps? I bet they could get Lohse back for that amount of money….. It sort of sounds like Johan gave them an utimatem and that’s too bad. Don’t let the door hit you on the way out, he caouldn’t get out fast enough in my opinion!
Are either Mulvey or Humber ready to step into the starting rotation?
Guerra pitched High A ball at 18, and is a future superstar.
The Twins scouting deparment is among the best in the biz.
They know EXACTLY what they’re getting.
good looking OF if you ask me MH. Gomez is faster than Jose Reyes. If he can make better contact, he will become a premier leadoff hitter.
I like somebody’s post earlier. Let’s call Baltimore and tell them we’ve got a hell of a deal for them. A bunch of above average prospects for Bedard. We’ll even through in Craig Monroe!!
I think Santana was the one who asked the team to trade him to the Mets. He knows that the Mets will be desperate enough and will give him a lot of money because of the collapse they had last year.
MH, I love the enthusiasm…
You’re one of few people here who are looking at the situation with an open mind knowing that it takes time to see what we really got…
Also sodakgopher , I 100% agree.
Steve, we better not spend $13 mil on Lohse.
Somebody put a good comment on here a few days back, saying that if a trade occurs, and the fans from both sides have a general feeling of uneasiness, and that they might have given up too much, then its a good trade for both teams.
Well, I can tell the MN fan base thinks we may have gotten hosed..
and on metsblog.com, their fans are having orgasms..
WE GOT JACKED
Also, when this exact deal was rumored of being offered by the mets about 3 weeks ago, there was a definitive agreement on this message board that it was the 3rd best offer on the table behind the bosox and yanks offers..
way to go bill smith, you totally overplayed your hand.
Todd, Mulvey and Humber are said to be ready, and both project as #3 starters from what I’ve read…
len3 and joe what are you doing? your paper is using usa today as a source for this and that they had talked to twins officials. are you guys sleeping or what?
I’ll agree with those posts too, however. I’m not going to completely freak out, because the Twins DO make trades like this well. However, I was just (and maybe dilusional) thinking that we had a shot this season. Looks like it’s more about next year and the year after. Shoot.
Bill Smith could have had Phil Hughes. Uhm Let me repeat “COULD HAVE HAD”
Bill Smith could have had Jacoby Ellsbury. Uhm let me repeat “COULD HAVE HAD”
WHAT DOES HE HAVE NOW? ???
A PILE OF DOG SHE-IT!! NICE JOB BILL!
remember guys, it is entirely possible that johan told them that he would veto any trade to the american league. he has said he wants to hit and it is easier to pitch in the nl. not saying it’s true, just that it’s possible.
for what its worth, i think that if you save the names of the possible trades and re-evaluate the trade then, you will be happy.
also, it’s nice to see the class of some of the fans on here that thank johan for his time here.
Hide the razor blades. This is the worst case scenario. Unbelievable. Get ready for several years of putrid baseball in Minny.
Todd Anthony, Humber has more experience and is closer to big league ready than Mulvey. Mulvey made one AAA appearance last year
This isn’t about T. Ryan or Bill Smith, this is about the Pohlads and their money hungry banking mentality and about Johan wanting to leave MN. Johan was POed that Ryan traded Castillo last season and got nothing in return. Both Hunter and Santana saw the Twins were about rebuilding towards the new stadium (at the wishes of the Pohlads). If you don’t like the deal, Give the old goat a kick in his walker.
I wonder if Morneau is calling to see if it’s too late to tear up his contract?
Can anybody on this board who supports this trade honestly say we got even 1 of the top 5 players we’ve heard mentioned througout this deal?
doggonit
USA Today posts the story at 3:12pm.
Average Joe posts the story on this blog at 3:14pm
Some guy named Stan Schmidt posts the “unconfirmed” story on the StarTribune website at 3:40pm???
LaVelle….that’s why everyone was on this blog! Everyone knew it would be posted here way before it hit the Trib.
Chill Reality.
Some good points about the Twins’ scouting department lately. I don’t like the trade, but I’m not a scout for the best talent-analyzing team in baseball. Maybe I should have a little faith too.
It still feels like we could have done better though. But who knows, maybe Anderson turns Mulvey/Humber into 200-inning guys?
TA
Not sure, but i think One of them may have too. Specially if Liriano starts the season in the Pen or at AAA
MY guess is Humber will be the #5 starter
Gomez is 22! younger then ellsbury and cabrera
give him some time, if nothing else he shuts down the balls running into the gaps. quick quick quick
Guerra is 18 with 2 Plus Pitches. Kid hits 96 with a fastball and an above average change
Mulvey is 22
With arms like Young/Cuddy in the corners, and speed like Gomez in Center. the twins outfield should be fine, Not many extra bases are going to be taken
This was a no-win situation for the Twins… assuming that signing him was not an option.
That said, I am glad to see something happen now opposed to happening mid-season when you would not get anything major-league ready. Acquiring the majority of the solid players from a team’s organization has to be somewhat positive.
The most important part is this, this trade is not for 2008, it’s for 2010.
Maybe LENIII knows something we don’t know? Settle down, people…it will be okay.
Besides, if Liriano truly is healthy, then we already have an ace lefty on our roster, albeit one who is much younger and cheaper.
If you read the report on the site here, you’ll see that it says the deal has not been confirmed by the ST.
That means La Velle and Joe are probably trying to get some info and confirmation…
More like 20never!
Carlos Gomez
Yr. Cl. AB R HR RBI SB BB K AVG
2005 A 487 75 8 48 64 32 88 .275
2006 AA 430 53 7 47 41 27 97 .281
2007 AAA 140 24 2 13 17 15 23 .286
Not talking about his few games with the Mets last year as he was hurt as well, I like the fact he has improved at every level. Clearly he is a speedster and if rumors of his defensive abilities are true, he looks like a promising center fielder. Take a look at Sizemore’s minor league stats and you’ll see Gomez compares just as favorably.
Calm down. Man I’d hate to be Gomez starting in CF with all this bile. Now I’m hoping WFAN was actually correct about the 5/100 offer.
The biggest thing right now is you’ve got a potential starting rotation, all young, all prone to not see the 6th-7th inning and all making minimum wage. Sure hope there’s something else cooking or Guerrier is in for one long year.
SHOULD HAVE TAKEN THE BOSTON DEAL YOU BABOON
Told you that you all were setting yourselves up for disappointment.
I think the Mets just got worked but hey, that’s just me. They give up nearly their entire farm system, save one kid, and get back a 29 year old pitcher at 25 mil for 6 or 7 years(who was developing a real penchant for giving up the long ball). Bill did ok and now he’s got a wad of cash to get another pitcher or CF if he wants. I’d like to see Nathan dealt now.
This was a horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible deal.
Gomez=iffy…no different than anybody else.
Guerra=great stuff at 18, that means very little.
Mulvey, Humber=yuck…our pitchers (Perkins, Duensing, Swarzak) much better.
Bill Smith got destroyed. DESTROYED.
I agree this is a NO win situation
Fans will argue either way.
I am glad its hopefully over.
This team is setting itself up to win in the new stadium. Twins ALWAYS make solid trades.
Sure hughes would have been nice. But other then him, it wasn’t much of an offer.
Sox offer looks dang good right now.
But let it play out.
My biggest Disappointment in this trade is I wish the club would have gotten back a infield prospect.
but hey, the oldest players in our lineup are Lamb/Everett
its a good solid young lineup
Growing pains? you bet.. gomez will be streaky. again.
he is 22!
If your the twins,
you still have a Franchise Catcher, Franchise 1st Baseman,
Hopefully Liriano becomes a Franchise Pitcher
Gomez a Franchise CF?
Young a Franchise LF?
talent talent talent!
I don’t believe this until it gets seriously confirmed.
If this ends up being the deal, then I say it wasn’t a great deal, but I also say there’s no reason to be in an uproar, calling for Bill Smith’s job. Ridiculous.
My hope is that the Twins get Eddie Kunz as a 5th person in that deal. He was projected as Billy Wagner’s replacement. Trade Nathan!!!
Iowa,
Aside from Guerra, none of those players were going to be long term players for the Mets. They did very well with this trade. They were able to hold on to arguably their best 2 prospects in Pelfrey and Martinez. Their farm system is fine. They have a lot of high ceiling pitchers still yet to see their full potential.
I love how some of you present your F*CKING opinions as fact, as gospel, as the WORD. We were never going to compete this year, people. We’re competing for 2010 and beyond. WE don’t know how an 18 year old kid, or a 22 year old kid is going to do? Let them develop first…let them truly experience some MLB service time before we rush to judgement.
Ralf,
Nice time for “told you so”…go home, enjoy, and pray that your new toy doesn’t blow an arm out in the next 7 years.
I don’t know what to think. maybe he forced the issue. maybe he said he would only go to the NL. I trust our guys as far as evaluating talent and I wouldn’t be surprised if F-Mart is a bust (as well as half the other players mentioned on all three teams) two years from now, but I expected Smith to keep him rather than take a bad deal. No deal is better than a bad deal.
Unfortunately, we have to wait 3 years to find out…
Now, Onto Joe Nathan
Hmmmm, Atlanta probably needs a Closer..
perhaps Yunel Escobar for Joe Nathan??
Risk. Tremendous upside potential. Tremendous downside potential. If the Twins scouts are any good. One or 2 of these guys should be an impact player. Time will tell.
Please tell me one thing…
How can we judge a trade one hour after it is made. Don’t you think we need to wait to see A)How the players turn out and B)See the players play at least once?
What a joke……Hennepin county taxpayers should revolt!!!!
MH,
Guerra has 1 plus pitch. His changeup. His fastball sits at 90. Tops out at 92-93. His curve is poor. He has upside but lets be realistic. He is 19. He does have good command of his fastball.
I just do not think he is anything special. We will know in 3-4 years. Unless he fails miserably beforehand.
I just do not think the twins got enough high ceiling talent back.
My figures cone from scout.com. Theur latest scouting report as of Jan 08.
The one thing I’ll agree with here is that the Twins must turn around and deal one or two of these AAA+ pitchers to get either a MLB ready hitter or someone close…
If the reported trade of Santana (for Gomez, Humber, Guerra, and Mulvey) is true, this will have a good chance of being the most devastating move by a Minnesota sports team since the Herschel Walker trade.
There is no way to spin the result as anything other than a complete failure of the whole organization from ownership to management.
I’m not too upset, either. Santana was a goner unless he had taken the 4/80 or 5/100 we offered. As a result, we would have had one year with him…a year where we are VERY likely not to win the AL central, with strong Detroit and Cleveland teams. We’re basically giving up 30-some starts of Santana for:
Carlos Gomez - very young CF with huge upside…some say faster than Jose Reyes (though not as good plate discipline, or probably as good a hitter)
Mulvey & Humber - Fairly promising young starters
Deolis Guerra - Very young (the guy was freakin’ born in 1989) pitcher with HUGE upside.
I, for one, agree with Iowa Twin, and am okay with the trade.
Iwa Twin I don’t know if you have had your head burried in the sand but if you think we will get a free agent pitcher with the money we save on Santana your nuts. We have the stingiest miser of a Fu**ing owner and if we do, it will be someone with a prison record a dug problem decrepped or one that just plain stinks that no one has ever even heard of before.
Shame on the Pohlads. I’m sick and tired of people making excuses for these people. Signing Santana WAS an option. They’re the richest family in baseball. We just traded Steve Carlton for a bag of dirt. I want my tax money back you scumbags.
I just heard on XM home plate that the Twins contacted them and said that they had nothing to announce at this time. Since when did the newspaper for dummies or those with reading levels in the 4th grade has ever gotten the scoop.
Stick’em,
Yeah…it’s too bad Minnetonka, EP, Edina, Bloomington, et al residents can’t just relocate their properties.
This is a horrible deal, blah, blah, blah.
Remember when AJ for Nathan, Liriano and Boof was a horrible deal?
No, because I couldn’t believe we got Nathan=AJP, Bonser, and a great, great, young prospect. Now we’re just depending on Guerra=Liriano, crossing our fingers for a very, incredibly likely scenario.
A lot of us knew Nathan was a stud, Bonser was an okay prospect (like Mulvey/Humber), and Liriano was an absolute stud prospect who had been injured that year.
If this deal goes through, the Twins should fire Bill Smith.
Wait, wait, wait for it. Oh yeah, its the same as it ever was.
You have the prize and we dictated the deal. I love it…love it, love it, love it.
Twin negotiation tactics = “Tell us your best deal.”
ha ha ha ha ha…that doesnt even work in Fantasy Baseball.
BS got piped
This is just insane. Bill Smith, David St. Peter and Carl Pohlad must have had overnight lobotomies. Can’t wait to hear how they spin this deal. Minnesota Twins….we are perpetual rebuilders…but have new stadium!!! Makes the Hershel Walker trade look decent.
i would rather take less from the mets than have him go to the sox or yanks.
it will be good to have it over so we can move on to complaining about how bad we got screwed.
I wanted to keep Johan all along, but if they offered 5 yrs 100 million then good riddens. We got probably all we could get for him, so i’m ok with it. Not one of you guys complaining knows what has been offered, so get over it. we now have a starting centerfielder and some potential in starting pitchers.
Rotoworld.com’s take:
USA Today believes the Mets have landed Johan Santana from the Twins for Carlos Gomez, Deolis Guerra, Kevin Mulvey and Philip Humber.
A contract extension would still have to be worked out, so even if it is officially agreed to, this will likely linger through Friday at least. It’s a pretty disappointing day for Twins fans. Both packages being discussed by the Red Sox and Yankees during the winter meetings seemed more attractive to us. Gomez and Guerra are big-time talents, but Gomez lacks plate discipline and might not fit in the top half of the lineup and an awful lot could go wrong before Guerra even sniffs the majors. Mulvey and Humber are third starters at best and probably more like fourths. It’s a whole lot better than losing Santana for draft picks next winter, but we’d have taken a Phil Hughes or Jacoby Ellsbury package over this
A lot of people in here sure seem to know a lot! He had to go! Goodbye already! I’m fine with the trade. He’s out of the American league, we got some nice prospects, so be it. If you want to blame someone blame the last GM who could have signed both Santana and Hunter but didn’t. BS hands were tied. Stop being such fair weather fans!
Now all you armchair general managers can get some sleep!!!!!
Daily News on what teams told the Twins when the went to them today to get final offers…
“The Yankees were unwilling to include Phil Hughes and essentially passed, while the Red Sox’ recent interest had been tepid as well.”
La Velle has a new post…
Jeez, guys, settle down and quit having heart attacks. Like I said earlier today, none of us know even a fraction about these guys compared to the Twins scouts. On the SURFACE it looks like a better deal could have been made, but none of us know that. For example, we all liked Pelfrey better than Humber, but I read recently that the Twins prefer Humber to Pelfrey. So if we all say it’s Pelfrey and the Twins all say it’s Humber who the hell should I believe more?
Same with Gomez. I’ve read a couple of places that he has a higher ceiling than FMart. That doesn’t mean it’s true, but WE ON THIS BLOG don’t know either way. We’re TOTALLY guessing about these guys. I suggest keeping an open mind. Let’s hear what the details come out to be. Let’s hear why the Twins did this deal. Let’s hear how firm the other supposed offers were.
We all fashion ourselves to be total experts, but the Twins far exceed our expertise. As I said earlier today, most fans were against the AJ trade since we gave up an All-Star catcher for two run of the mill guys and a very young injury prone guy. Haven’t the Twins earned some semblance of confidence in their abilities to do this sort of thing?
Now back to the waiting till they get developed then trade them game. BS got the dirty Sanchez
We just robbed the Twins! Best Pitcher in baseball for 4 pieces of garbage. Gomez is at best a 4th of. Lots of speed but can’t hit. Twinkies should think of a worse hitting Nick Punto. 2 pitchers who at best are swing men and a guy that might end up being#3, kind of like your Boof Bosner. Big Fat guy that is injured a lot.
So how will these wonderful Twinkies do in 2008, with a roster worse than 2007. Silva, Bartlett, Hunter and now Santana..GONE. And their replacements, even IF as good, will still bring a cellar dwellar record much like last year. I want all of my tax money back that paid to support these idiots.
If the Twins scouting dept is so great, why are we not able to develop an outfielder or 2nd or 3rd baseman. Twins scouting was once very good. Lately, they have been below average….
Pohlad likes to give BS the dirty Sanchez after taco bar night at the legion
I’m going to copy and paste all of these negative comments and unleash them on you in 3 years when we can actually judge whether this was a good trade or not.
I’m glad the matter is settled and that we have some young prospects to watch. Ellsbury was helped by playing on such a good team, and Cabrera would have been gone in 2 years. Let’s see how it all turns out…no reason to predict doomsday.
Hey, atleast we did not allow the Red Sox to become a sure dynasty…on are account.
I do wish Santana the best.He was fun to watch while we had him.
Maybe,like others have said here,the Twins have another deal in the works with are stockpile of young pitchers and/or Nathan.
Metsfan#1…bingo. Our change to fill gaping holes in our lineup lost. Need a power hitting DH, our starting pitching is suspect, and the new guys coming in are certainly not a lock to be productive. But we give away the best pitcher in the league for some more what if talent. But wait….we have a new ballpark to play in. Big deal…..
No one knows how this deal will eventually pan out. But for starters, these guys are not starters. And I predict a 4th place finish in the division and these new guys will do little to nothing in 2008. A Santana trade should have brought established talent to the Twins so they could compete in 2008. Now beating the Royals may become challenging, let alone the other teams in our division.
Just remember that by trading him to the NL instead of the AL we don’t have to deal with him making the direct competition (AL) better. Sure we may not have gotten the best package, but why would any club pay full asking price in a declining market (see the housing market). The Twins got what they could based on the market. I truly think that Santana would really like to become a free agent and then sign with the Yankees or Red Sox, especially after hearing that he turned down 5/100. The Yankees and the Red Sox know that they could offer 70 cents on the dollar because they could chance it that the Twins couldn’t pull off a deal they liked and had to hold him until he left via free agency and then they would swoop in and get him for much less than the Twins hoped. Though I am not happy with the deal, at least it is over and he is in the National League.
To justify this trade by saying at least another AL team did not get Santana speaks volumes about just how lousy a trade this is. And yes, let’s come back in 3 years and judge this trade. Hershel Walker will no longer be the most infamous trade a Minnesota team ever made.
Most Mets Fans are very excited to have Santana. All the sports channels in NY are talking about how we totally shafted the Twinkies. They are comparing this trade to December 10, 1971 when we dealt Nolan Ryan and others to California for shortstop Jim Fregosi. This time we did the robbing! Mets fans thank you idiots in MN for giving us the best pitcher in baseball for a sack of balls.
It will be interesting to see how the rest of the baseball world views this trade. I am willing to bet the consensus will be the Twins got fleeced. And the lower payroll is just what Pohlad wanted. Big payroll guys Hunter and Santana gone and we get who to replace them? And no doubt the replacements will not be nearly as productive. The Twins needed established starters to help them compete this year. The 2008 roster will be worse than 2007 when we finished 3rd in the division. Again, this smells like Pohlad replacing starting salaries with prospect salaries. It sure didn’t improve the 2008 Minnesota Twins. At least they have more bodies in their farm system….whoopee.
Peter Gammons said these 4 prospects wouldn’t even make the Yankees or Red Sox top ten prospect. Billy Smith is an idiot.
Reality Check and others need to get a grip and realize we really won’t be able to fairly evaluate this deal for quite a while. With the Tigers’ off-season moves and Cleveland coming back strong, it was unrealistic to expect the Twins to both deal Santana and be competitive in ‘08. I’m more concerned about getting high-ceiling guys that can help us in ‘09 and beyond.
While I was initially very disappointed that Martinez wasn’t part of the deal, I have to give the Twins talent scouts the benefit of the doubt for now. Granted, Gomez has struggled at the plate, and if he doesn’t eventually get some plate discipline and hit well enough to move to the top of the order, then it favors the Mets. However, if he does get the hitting squared away, many pundits think he’ll be better than Ellsbury and he’s two years younger.
While Mulvey and Humber project as #3’s at best, nearly everyone agrees that Guerra has ace potential, even if he is only 19, and is no guarantee..
Look, as much as I liked Hughes, Ellsbury, and some of the other parts of the proposed Sawx/Yanks deals, there were flaws/risks in them too (Melky, Coco…etc.). It’s easy now, to say Smith screwed up and should have taken one of those deals, but I thought he was playing his hand perfectly and I fully expected either Hank or Minaya to blink. I think a lot of you Fantasy GMs out there would have played it the same (if you’re being honest). While I would have liked to have had Pelfrey, and/or another high-ceiling low-level prospect, I think it makes sense to take a slightly lower offer from the Mets just to get Johan out of the league.
We don’t know how much pressure Johan’s camp exerted on the Twins or which Yanks/Sawx offers were really on the table in the end, but the bottom line was that we were going to lose Johan–and it was a “pick your poison” scenario. Twins fans shouldn’t be disappointed if they don’t make the playoffs this year. But if Liriano comes back strong, if Delmon Young continues to blossom, if Mauer rebounds and if Guerra and Gomez progress, they’re still going to be good and a lot of fun to watch.
Cut Bill Smith a little slack (and maybe even give him some kudos for the Young-Garza deal). I liked Terry Ryan, but he was starting to lose me with additions like Rondell White, Tony Batista, Sidney Ponson and Ramon Ortiz.
Now that the Santana saga is finally over, let’s see what else BS has up his sleeve to make the Twins competitive AFTER ‘08, and evaluate this deal 3+ years down the road.
I LOVE THE RED SOX!!!! WHOOO!! But I don’t get why people are getting all worked up about this….I don’t even see how it matters! But I’ll let you people have your fun…..
This website is pretty good. Thanks to whoever mentioned it earlier. From Sethspeaks.net, an interview with John Manuel of BA on Twins prospects and the
Santana derby…this interview was a few days ago:
SethSpeaks: You may have heard, but the Twins are rumored to be shopping lefty Johan Santana. Of the names that have been mentioned most frequently, how many of them would rank in the Twins Top 10, and as important, how many of them would or could claim the #1 overall spot? (Names: jacoby ellsbury, jed lowrie, justin masterson, ryan kalish, jon lester, phil hughes, jeff marquez, austin jackson, fernando martinez, carlos gomez, mike pelfrey, phil humber, kevin mulvey, deolis guerra)
John Manuel: Hughes & Lester & Pelfrey aren’t eligible; pretty much everyone else offered, other than Kalish, Humber, Mulvey and Marquez, would have ranked ahead of Blackburn. I’m a big Masterson fan, he’s actually quite similar to Blackburn, he’s got a great fastball in terms of command, life, ability to pitch off it, improving secondary stuff . . . I am a Carlos Gomez guy, big-time tools, exciting player, worth getting in my mind. I did our Yankees & Mets top 30s and I’m a Red Sox fan, so I hope I know these players more than the average bear. I’d also say that Lowrie is a 2b for the Twins; I don’t think they believe he can play SS to their expectations, or else I believe they would have made that deal.
RealityCheck, I’d love to see what the prevailing opinion from the baseball world was following the Knoblauch trade. Or even the AJ one (to cite something a little more recent).
As far as what Peter Gammons says, the Yankees could have 100 better prospects…it doesn’t do the Twins any good if NY doesn’t want to give them up.
The Twins waited “so long” to deal Santana becaues it looks like they were still doing everything they could to try and make a contract work out.
When that stopped being an option (Johan’s ultimatum a few days ago), it becamse clear that they had to move him while they could still control it.
The deal looks like a flop for two reasons:
1) We were so focused on Hughes/Ellsbury that we didn’t bother scoping out other team’s prospects.
2) Hughes/Ellsbury not only play for the two biggest markets in the league, but also both had pretty decent performances during the national stage of the postseason. Would we be singing a different tune if Gomez and the Mets had made the playoffs?
As jama (at least I hope I’m correct in attributing this paraphrase to jama) said, Ellsbury’s value is as high as it’s ever going to be thanks to the national spotlight.
I’ve posted my thoughts over on Howard’s board. I posted them here first but it doesn’t look like they went through. I’ll perhaps go copy paste them back here.
WAAAAA!!!!- WAAAAAA!!!! THE TWINKIES GET HOSED AGAIN…BUSH LEAGUE….ARE YOU THE EXPOS of the AMERICAN LEAGUE…YOU SURE LOOK LIKE ‘EM
Your Amature GM… showed how green he is…
