Twins, Mets agree on Santana deal
Posted on January 29th, 2008 – 4:06 PMBy La Velle
Multiple major league sources familiar with negotiations are confirming that the Twins and New York Mets have agreed to trade of two-time Cy Young Award winner Johan Santana for four prospects.
The deal is pending physicals and a contract extension for Santana that’s expected to be for at least six years and more than $20 million a season.
In return for Santana, the Twins will receive four of the Mets best prospects - outfielder Carlos Gomez and righthanders Phillip Humber, Kevin Mulvey and Deolis Guerra.
The Twins wanted outfield prospect Fernando Martinez in the deal but the Mets balked at gutting their farm system of top prospects.
The deal comes after it was learned on Tuesday that Santana and his agent, Peter Greenberg, had begun to apply pressure to the Twins to get something done. There were indications, for instance, that Red Sox were told on Friday that it was time to bring their best offer to the table.
The Red Sox offered packages centering around lefthander Jon Lester and another centering around outfielder Jacoby Ellsbury. Infielder Jed Lowrie was believed to be attached to both deals, but it was learned on Tuesday that, in recent weeks, the Twins and Red Sox had changed some of the names in the back end of the deal.
954 Responses to "Twins, Mets agree on Santana deal"
booo
Way to give up Santana for 1/10 of his value!
Carlos Gomez = Christian Guzman!
Nice trade since Santana didnot want to earn $93 mil as Twin.
The Mets paid a high price in prospects to land Santana, agreeing to send the Twins outfielder Carlos Gomez and pitchers Phil Humber, Deolis Guerra and Kevin Mulvey.
Now deal for a veteran with these young pitchers or sign Benson and Lofton.
Win Twins!
This deal is hard to grade out right now. I am sure we will hear endless babling by people who know nothing about these “prospects” as to how the Twins either did good or were ripped off.
The only thing I can say is that I am glad that if Johan had to go, he went the the National league.
So, can we afford a free agent now? Are there any left?
Yeah, at least the Yankees didn’t get him
Benson and Lofton?
Ug.
Obviously, the Twin’s are still enlisting the help of Terry Ryan.
Why is it Minnesota always gets the Shiv in trades. First, the Hershel deal. Then when the shoe is on the other foot, we give away Culpepper and Moss. Now, with Santana we get ‘prospects’. Hopefully, Billy Boy has a keen eye for talent, because right now, this trade smells for the Twinkies….
I agree Jason…. at least he left the AL…. and since i live in NY state, at least he went to the team with the best fanbase in my area
All I can say is that it’s better than 2 draft picks at the end of the year. I’m a frustrated Twins fan right now.
They better not spend the Santana money on players similar to Rondell White or Sidney Ponson.
Guaranteed we won’t remember half these players by the time Johan’s new contract is up.
I am sad to say that this trade will have a good chance of being the most devastating move by a Minnesota sports team since the Herschel Walker trade.
There is no way to spin the result as anything other than a complete failure of the whole organization from ownership to management.
After all this time, this is the offer that’s been on the table for months. I’m glad to put the issue to bed, but only time will tell if this was the right deal for us. With so many true prospects with a lot of upside, this could make the Twins a formidable force come 2010-2012…or they could all be busts. As much as I, and probably others, would have liked more, I guess it wasn’t to be…
I recall the Twins thinking that Humber was better than Pelfrey and Mulvey is much like Slowey. If Gomez can play center and develop into a lead off hitter then he will be pretty good and Guerra may become a right handed version of Santana in three years. If Gomez is the good Guzman then that sounds pretty good as well.
This is the best they could squeze out of the Mets? Very uninspiring outcome! This is better than the offers from the winter meetings? It sure would be nice to know what Boston’s final offers were. How very depressing!!
I will be sorry to see Johan go but am glad he won’t be in the AL. Thanks for the memories. Hopefully, the Twins know what they are doing with the prospects. I guess it is time to move on and sign a free agent CF.
I agree that it’s good he’s in the NL, and that we’ll have to see how these guys pan out. So is Gomez the new CF then?
I hope gomez can jump like Hunter. If he can steal a home run in the the first few games i will warm up to him. I hope he can play this season.
Did Johan really reject a 5\100 million contract
They got screwed. Same offer the Mets first put on the table months ago. Way to hold out Twins. Cabrerra and Hughes would’ve been better.
Unbelievable
Jeez, guys, settle down and quit having heart attacks. Like I said earlier today, none of us know even a fraction about these guys compared to the Twins scouts. On the SURFACE it looks like a better deal could have been made, but none of us know that. For example, we all liked Pelfrey better than Humber, but I read recently that the Twins prefer Humber to Pelfrey. So if we all say it’s Pelfrey and the Twins all say it’s Humber who the hell should I believe more?
Same with Gomez. I’ve read a couple of places that he has a higher ceiling than FMart. That doesn’t mean it’s true, but WE ON THIS BLOG don’t know either way. We’re TOTALLY guessing about these guys. I suggest keeping an open mind. Let’s hear what the details come out to be. Let’s hear why the Twins did this deal. Let’s hear how firm the other supposed offers were.
We all fashion ourselves to be total experts, but the Twins far exceed our expertise. As I said earlier today, most fans were against the AJ trade since we gave up an All-Star catcher for two run of the mill guys and a very young injury prone guy. Haven’t the Twins earned some semblance of confidence in their abilities to do this sort of thing?
It’s one of these deals we really have no idea about for awhile. Would Martinez really make it that much better?
I’m not particularly happy but I can’t say it’s a complete disaster either. Word has been lately that with the huge contract due Santana he wasn’t worth what we once thought. So I’m glad we’ve got a great CF prospect and no he does not equal Denard Span. We also got a great pitching prospect in Guerra as well.
Sorry I have to be an optimist
Viola trade=91 world series championship
Santana trade= 2010 championship
I’m glad he didn’t walk at the end of the year but I can’t help but think the best part of this trade is that Johan is out of the AL, not what we received in return. Not really the high point I was hoping for.
TJ, that’s the rumor…
Also, I really hope Gomez is the guy in CF this season and that the Twins don’t make him go to AAA to get more work…
Horrible! Not a single major league ready player! All that talk and posturing about not being afraid to starting the season with Santana and then they pull the trigger on this crappy trade that’s been on the table for at least a month!
Bill Smith
We’ll see what type of contract Santana ends up with. I hope he gets 7 years. That will be some small consolation if these prosepcts succeed, while he is declining at $20+m/yr.
at least it is done, so the team can get ready for the season without destructions…
Carlos Gomez, Phillip Humber, Kevin Mulvey and Deolis Guerra, rank as #1, 3, 5 & 6 in the Mets’ system from scout.com and 3,7,4 &3 at baseball america. Gomez can be a sparkplug, but probably needs another year or so in the minors (he is 22) and Humber might challenge for a spot in the rotation this year. Mulvey is about a year or so a way and Guerra is 2-3 years away. I bet that the Twins open the CF spot up for grabs within the organization with either one of the prospects (Gomez, Pridie, Span) or one of the veterans (Monroe, Young, Cuddyer) claiming it. Gomez is a good acquisition if he learns plate discipline. He is probably the fastest player in the majors right now (reported faster than his x-teamate Reyes).
ugh. something a little more immediate other than prospects would be nice. but at least we wont have to face him in anything other than interleauge. unless… a twins/mets ‘08 world series. i can see it now.
Wow!!!The Red Sox package was waaaaaay better than that. Every one of those players is inferior to the Red Sox players offered. Ellsbury>Gomez, Masterson>Humber, Lowrie>Mulvey, and Kalish>Guerra(both 19 yr olds with massive potential but young pitchers tend to break down and have a higher chance of flaming out). At least as a Sox fan we can keep our prospects and watch them make the big club while still having the best team in baseball.
Breaking News - The Minnesota Twins trade the BEST starting pitcher in the game to the New York Mets for a Dome Dog - and some condiments - Congrats Mr. Smith !!!! Go Twins
Well I guess that means Nathan is next … no sense having a top-tier closer on the roster when he’ll get a chance to close once a month …
Is this really the best deal the Twins could get for the best pitcher in baseball? 4-relatively unproven prospects? I have heard really mixed reviews on Gomez who is supposedly the best player we got in this deal …
Interesting read on him here …
http://www.metsgeek.com/articles/2006/05/31/the-xyzs-of-carlos-gomez/
I want to be optimistic here Twins fans, but this doesn’t get me too excited about the upcoming season.
I’m very sad to see Johan go, but a deal had to be done. This wasn’t exactly the deal I wanted, but Gomez could be our CF this year and Humber will be very good very soon. I was disappointed not to see Fernando Martinez coming our way.
Deolis Guerra = 89K in 80 IP at High A last year. He’s 18. Could be a star by age 21. Walks too many guys.
Correct, Gomez=Guzman. Mulvey=Mike Trombley and Phil Humber is 25 and a year back from Tommy John surgery.
Bottom line, though, is that not one of these guys is proven at all. Not happy.
As a die hard Yankee fan…THANK YOU METS!!!!!! I did not want to give up Hughes AND pay 6/150.
Think the Twins regret not taking Hughes, Melk, Marquez + 1?
Gomez never had an OPS over 777, strikes out about 100 times in 500 AB’s, has 18 HRs in 1291 AB’s…batted .232 for the Mets in 07. This is the guy that’s gonna start for the Twins in CF? Melk would have started for you right out of the gate. I bet you send Gomez to the minors.
Humber….4.11 ERA in the minors, only registered one season at AAA ( 4.27 ERA ) and got rocked in his only MLB start for the Mets last year, hear he projects to be a #4. Could have had Hughes who projects to be a #2.
Deolis Guerra - 18 year old at A+, nothing that stands out.
Kevin Mulvey is a decent prospect it seems, low ERA, low WHIP, good BB/9 rate, weak K rate though. Still he just registered 6 IP at AAA this season so he wont be ready.
You guys got 0 MLB ready players when you could have had Hughes, Melk, Lester or Ellsbury. Forget the AL, clearly the Twins did not want to trade Santana to the Yanks or Sox. The Sox because Minn has been taken to he cleaners by Boston with Papi and KG. The Yanks because…well…everyone hates us.
Enjoy Twins!!!! And thanks again for not trading him to the Sox or taking our top prospect!!!
Love always, the Yankee fan!
“Gomez - Guzman”???? That’s an insane comment. “Worse than the Herschel trade”??? I still don’t know how all you armchair baseball nuts, who know far less than the Twins scouts, can know so certainly that this is a terrible trade. Gomez outruns Jose Reyes, and has all the tools to be a superstar. We simply don’t know if he will get there. But he has a chance. I just don’t know where the arrogance of knowing so much more than the Twins scouts comes from. It seems remarkably self-absorbed to me.
So does this mean we don’t have to pay Santana the 13 million we owe him for this year? Can we turn around and use this for getting a second/third tier free agent who will breakdown after a month and then we can cut? Wonderful…maybe now we can concentrate on trading Punto for an extra bucket of balls for batting practice…
It is better than 2 draft picks. It still seems like a letdown after the potential SOX/Yanks offers that were being bandied about. If the Sox offers were there and diminished, it is clear that Bill Smith waited too long. I think that neither the Yankees or Sox truly wanted him and his 7/140 contract. We see how these guys pan out. It seems like a loss for the Twins though.
No coincidence that this happened AFTER TwinsFest.
Should have waited to sign Morneau and Cuddy after the trade to help settle the natives.
If I’m Billy Smith, my bag is packed and I heading to Ft. Myers a little bit early this year.
There’s no way this deal is as devastating as the Hershel trade. In fact they don’t relate. We overpaid for one player. We were trading a player we would have lost in a year to free agency and had only two draft picks to show. This way we get our pick of some guys that have at least played a bit and shouldn’t be busts completely.
What would have been more crippling is resigning Johan to a 7/140 deal and having him blow his shoulder or elbow out and become a mediocre pitcher halfway through.
I don’t love the trade but it is not devastating by any means.
Too Many fans in here bashing the trade
i guess you all know something I don’t Know
apparantly gomez/guerra/mulvey/humber are not any good..
Would you please fill me in on why this trade is soo bad?
we got a 2 kids that are 22
and one that is 19 humber is like 25?
prospects are prospects
can you tell me hughes will still be in the majors in 5-10 years?
is he going to be dominant?
No, no one can predict the future
everyone needs to settle down and let things play out. Intelligent baseball fans know it takes time to see how this will turn out
Sure all the major sports outlets think the twins got Screwed in this deal.
They also thought that when we traded Knobloch for Milton/Guzman
They also thought that when we traded AJ
Let them think it again..
In the meantime.
Settle Down
Twins are Young and Talented in the Outfield. Oldest players are Everett/Lamb ?? Thats saying alot.
young/cheap/ and this trade gives us more pitching.
Which Bill Smith has already Showed he will trade Young Pitching for Bats.
Time Will TELL!
Now, Joe Nathan is next to go.
But i expect that to be a trade at the Deadline
HOW ARE YOU PEOPLE NOT MORE UPSET? I’m not a twins fan (yankees actually)… and not even that we didn’t get santana (at least the Sox didnt) but how could you let this happen? how could a new gm make this huge of a mistake? you’re talking about how you “just don’t know” but you DID KNOW that hughes, melky, lester, coco, and ellsbury have all played AND SUCCEEDED in the majors… the best you got in this deal is a .230 hitter and a 7.71 era in the majors… having the team in the NL isn’t THAT important… you got all prospects and no knowns… when you could’ve had it… show some damn emotion!
Who thought Liriano was going to be sweet when the AJ trade happened. Exactly. Lets just wait and see.
Wow…I am disappointed. I am an optimist but the Twins CLEARLY did not get the upper-hand here. I totally agree that they shouldn’t send him to an AL team - but at what price? I almost was thinking the past few days to hold him for the year (which he would have won a Cy in a contract-year) and then let him go and get zero if this is all we were getting offered…the Yankees have to be out of their mind not to make a strong offer..they might as well give the division to the Red Sox right now…Good Lord.
We got NO proven major leaguers (can you BELIEVE originally the Twins were asking for Reyes and now we get….THIS?)…Gomez/Humber/Mulvey…far from can’t miss prospects…Guerra MIGHT be the only one that can save this trade…and we will find out that one in…oh…5 years?
Excuse me while I go vomit.
worst trade possible.
many other hinted at trades earlier this year would have been much better.
BS blew it!
This trade is disgusting. Instead of getting a major league talent such as Jacoby Ellsbury, we trade the best pitcher in baseball for a handful of prospects? Twins might as well trade Joe Nathan now that have conceded to not putting a winning team on the field in 2008.
Go Tigers!
I can’t say i love the move but I have faith that the brass know what these kids are capable of and I’ll take the 4 prospects Versus 2 draft picks
A horrible outcome, but not the worst. Getting 2 draft picks would have been the worst. They should have signed him to the deal he wanted demanding a limited no-trade clause to teams of his choice. They then could have shipped him in year 2 or 3 of the new deal. That way the would have ended up spending big bucks early for certain, but then by having him signed his trade value would have been much higher than this crummy deal. Gotta put the blame on Ryan for not trading him last off season.
and MH… i can tell you that hughes will be a solid major leaguer for years to come… definitely… hell… he had a no-hitter in the 7th inning in his 3rd start (got hurt). Then battled injuries, and still had a VERY respectable rookie era and stats… and melky has done it for 2 years… you didn’t get any definites… you keep saying prospects… lester, ellsbury, coco, melky, and hughes are NOT prospects… they are all major league players… not prospects…
This just ruined my day. I hope it doesn’t ruin the season. I’m upset that Santana wouldn’t except $20 mil for five years to stay with the an up and coming team and have a chance to pitch in a new stadium. Thanks for the memories, may you blow out your south paw in spring training. No more Rick Anderson for you buddy.
Mets fan here, thought I’d weight in on the trade for you guys.
I really don’t think it’s as bad as you guys think. Gomez is a very good player who is faster than Jose Reyes, has great bat speed and is a great defender. If the Twins watched him at all last year they’d start him in AAA next year - he needs at least half a season there, but once his bat develops, he could be a Grandserson type player. It hurts to give him up.
Personally, I hate to give up Guerra. He is 18 years old, but has put on 4 inches, about 30 pounds, and 4-5 MPH on his fastball in the past year. His change-up is sick, and he had a 4.01 ERA last year in high A at the age of 17. He is very impressive, and could be something special.
Mulvey and Humber are what you see - good, solid college pitchers, whose future in the majors depends on their ability to locate their solid, but not great stuff. Both could be solid 4 or 5’s, or could completely stink it up.
Overall, the Mets simply stink at publicizing their prospects. These guys don’t have the hype of Lester/Hughes/Ellsbery, but they are solid prospects. Obviously, I like the trade from the Mets perspective, but it does hurt to give up these prospects.
Better this than paying him half of his $13 million salary, being 10 games under .500 and dealing him for half of even THIS value. and far better than letting him walk for nothing in a year. have an open mind on these prospects..
I understand the need to make a deal since Santana was not going to take the Twins best offer even after they upped it. I am disappointed that we did not get a couple of big leaguers back. There were rumors - I understand that they were only rumors - that Ryan Church and Aaron Heilman were also offered. Church could have been a serviceable centerfielder and I think that Heilman would have better than Humber but I suspect that the Twins had to act now or really dig themselves into a deep hole. The best news: we did not get Coco Crisp! Smith was right to insist that any Red Sox deal was Lester AND Ellsbury and that Coco Crisp was not acceptable in any deal for Santana.
What would payroll be at then? 50-52% of revenue yet?
I’m cool with the trade because the Twins have a decent track record when it comes down to it. Lets see if they make any more moves afterwards with some of these players for a BIG bat? MMM maybe too much to ask but who knows. A Good solid Vet pitcher(Innings eater) would be nice too!!
I think trading 30-odd cracked-fingernail starts of Santana during a mediocre Twins year for a package of quality prospects and saving $$$ was pretty good. I guess you could compare the package to the Sox and Yanks and say that they all had their ups and downs… But in the end, fans can’t and shouldn’t think of this as trading away the best pitcher in baseball for a bunch of junk — it was a very necessary move, and Bill Smith was put in a difficult position here. There is no way to please the Twins in this case… No team is going to empty their entire minor league system plus top MLB players for a player they have to immediately give 78 trillion dollars to. One of the real problems here is the ridiculous salaries being given to top players lately.
as a mets fan, i am of course happy if this deal goes down, but i’m really sorry to lose gomez. i think he will be special and hope all the prospects turn out to be all-stars for you.
it’s been good talking to MOST of you for the last week. i may relocate to mn at some point and i’m happy to know that i would be around good baseball fans.
win twins!
lets go mets!
at least we avoided the MN - Bos pipeline
Dear Twins fans,
Thanks for the free stadium. Now I’m getting rid of your two best players.
Looking forward to 2010, and then 2110. That’s right, I’m going to outlive every one of you S.O.B.s.
Uncle Carl
If Gomez can develop like he’s supposed to, the trade isn’t awful, because it provides the Twins with arguably the best defensive outfield in baseball for the next few years. Cannons at the corners and ridiculous speed in center.
However, Gomez has a .273 career average, .329 OBP, and a whopping 3:1 K:BB ratio in the minors, which doesn’t sell me as a believer in his ability to be the spark plug/lead-off threat the Twins need. His .232 effort with the Mets this past season over 58 games doesn’t do that image any favors.
Guerra is exciting… Mulvey and Humber I admittedly don’t know a ton about, other than the fact that they’re not projected to be anything more than 3/4 starters.
Bad trade for the Twins if you ask me. I’d have preferred a Church/Martinez/Guerra package.
Still, I’ll say again what myself and a few others said on the other threads. This isn’t Bill Smith’s fault. He came in and inherited an ace who didn’t want any part of Minnesota anymore, and had to make a move. He patiently waited to see what sorts of deals would arise before pitchers and catchers reported, and when Santana came up with an ultimatum, the Sox reduced their offer and the Yankees backed out. If you’re looking to blame someone:
1. Terry Ryan for not signing him after the 2006 when Johan wanted a long-term deal, and then further alienating Johan with the Castillo debacle at the deadline.
2. Johan Santana for being impatient and putting the Twins in this situation.
3. Bill Smith, for not getting Martinez or Church (a major-league ready CF).
In that order.
Eric says:
January 29th, 2008 at 4:22 pm
HOW ARE YOU PEOPLE NOT MORE UPSET? I’m not a twins fan (yankees actually)… and not even that we didn’t get santana (at least the Sox didnt) but how could you let this happen? how could a new gm make this huge of a mistake? you’re talking about how you “just don’t know” but you DID KNOW that hughes, melky, lester, coco, and ellsbury have all played AND SUCCEEDED in the majors… the best you got in this deal is a .230 hitter and a 7.71 era in the majors… having the team in the NL isn’t THAT important… you got all prospects and no knowns… when you could’ve had it… show some damn emotion!
This is a comment from a baseball fan with little to zero knowledge
how many innings has humber/mulvey pitched in the bigs????
how many atbats does Gomez have?
How old is Gomez?
How old is Ellsbury and Cabrera?
This fan obviously is making a comment off of a short sample of success..
Cabrera has shown he is capable of playing. yes.. i agree
But geez, I wonder why Micheal Ryan isn’t playing outfield for the twins, or anyother team. he came up in Sept and hit .350 with 3 or 4 HRs and a few extra base hits
Slerv,
In a word, yes. F-mart would have made a difference. At a minimum the Mets would be feeling some discomfort as well (good for both sides in a fair trade). Instead, they are feeling like they Fleeced us, as the national media probably will too.
It is true that we won’t know the true value for awhile, but viewed today…it’s a tough pill to swallow.
wait a few years. we hope bs is a better judge of talent than a bunch of bloggers. just use some of the money saved to draft and sign the best player and not the ones how will sign cheap. if they’d done that we could have had hughes, kennedy and joba the hut.
bet hunter is smiling he doesn’t have to get struck out 4 times in the opener!
Well we will see what kind of scouts the Twins have in this deal… Gomez and Guerra have to turn out to be very good ML players for this deal to turn out.
Good riddance. Great pitcher, fantastic person, but he could only pitch every fifth day. I get tired of guys who only got a chance because the Twins saw something in them and then developed it, but once the price isn’t right, they bolt. I’ll miss seeing Torii and Johan this year but I’m just as certain that they both will miss Minnesota at some point too.
Did we get Hershal Walker, Randy Moss, and Kevin Garnett in the deal also?
Ya, MN ALWAYS gets hosed on trades, what were we thinking trading AJ Pierzynski….
Wow: this is a worse deal than either the Red Sox or the Yankees were offering months ago.
hahahahahahahahahahaha Too much, the trade that took all winter, the trade that wasn’t going to be done unless it was exactly what Smith wanted was this? THIS?
If there is a HOF for stupid GMs Smith just insured his place in it.
This is a terrible trade and is the reason the Twins will NEVER be in the World Series again.
Someone in management has to decide when to go for broke instead of always being “competitive”. I am tired of always being “competitive” and have watched/attended my last Twins game until a change is made in attitude.
Ok….Everyone who is a major league scout raise your hands….
NOT ONE PERSON RAISED THEIR HANDS??? Not surprised. If I didn’t know better, i’d think that you all were some sort of experts.
This comment section is nothing more than idiotic rubes who don’t know a baseball from a softball.
The Twins will be just fine without Santana. He didn’t want our money so….let him go. At least we got something for him.
Lets not put Smith at McHale status yet….he has a lot to do before earning the HOF spot.
I think calling the trade the most devastating move since the Herschel Walker trade might not have been the best phrasing (since I’m hoping the Twins as a franchise won’t take years to recover).
A more accurate description would be to call the deal the most lopsided move since the Herschel Walker trade.
Tim….your an idiot. We don’t need you as a Twins fan if that is what you want….
Is Kevin McHale running the Twins now? What a stupid deal! This market is going to be the laughing stock of major league sports. Don’t keep Ortiz, now he’s Big Poppy MVP. Don’t keep KG, trade him for a bunch of expiring contracts. Don’t keep Moss, he’s about to get a Super Bowl ring. Keep it up boys!
Jeff said: “Guaranteed we won’t remember half these players by the time Johan’s new contract is up.”
Actually, I don’t think anyone will remember them before Santana even puts on his new Mets uni for the first time.
These “prospects” won’t even come close to making the Twins’ Major League roster in 2008 or at any time.
Bad deal.
We need PLAYERS, not wannabes.
I suppose now they’ll spend money to get Kyle LOSE from free agency.
This was a trade made out of total desperation (if it becomes official).
God, what a cluster-f at centerfield in AAA… Pridie might start for the big club, just because we dont have room for Gomez, Pridie, Span, McDonald in CF in Rochester… Heck, maybe Gomez will start since he has ML experiance.
I bet Joe Benson and Ben Revere are excited that we traded for a 22 year old CF…
The biggest confusing thing to me is the Twins still had heavy pitching talent on all levels of the minors yet we got one position player and 3 more pitchers.
I’m a little confused on that except that maybe Smith is planning on moving Nathan with young pitching to bring in offensive help.
(repost) + some
I think that both the Sox and Yanks will be relieved. The Mets get their man and get some credibility back (plus some space on the back pages of the tabloids). Lets see if the Mets will give him the contract that he wants. Santana gets the money + gets to pitch in the NL. Start lining up the Cy Youngs. The give up 2 prospects + 2 c level marginal prospects.
The Twins (at first glance) get hosed. Maybe Guerra becomes a stud. Big maybe. He was shut down last year with a tight shoulder. Lets see if Gomez can start hitting.
Scoreboard:
Sox - Win
Yanks - Win
Mets - Win
Santana - Win
Twins - Lose (maybe a push if Guerra can become a #2 starter & Gomez becomes an above average CF). Perhaps the other 2 guys exceed expectations and rise above 4/5 starters.
As a Yankee fan, I am glad that Santana went to the NL. I am happy that we kept Hughes. As a Yankee fan, I was at least hoping that you guys would make the Mets pay a little bit more.
These offer do pale in comparison to the other speculated trades. Bill Smith waited too long.
The optimists out there are saying wait 3 years. Fine. Maybe it will end up being a good trade. It still seems that you could have/should have gotten more had you pulled the trigger at the Winter meetings.
JR…. Lopsided? How can you say that when you know nothing of the players that we’re receiving.
flame away.
What a Horible Deal!!!! I did not believe the reports at first the Bill Smith overplayed his hand, but apparantly he did. When we could have gotten Phil Huhghes from the yankees i can not believe we could have jumped on that. I realize that i was one who said we should be patient and wait, but i did not know the whole situation obviously. If you are Bill Smith you need to realize that if you wait too long and no offers improve it means that the offers will only decline.
What a horrible deal i dont buy the whole “The Twins know what they are doing thing with their scouts” the point is all baseball scouts on the web are saying Mulvey and Humber are #4 starters!!!! Unbelievable i can not say that enough Unbelievable. We let the Mets back us into a wall. this is the worst deal of the past decade. We are moroons.
WHY DID WE NOT TAKE PHIL HUGHES WHEN THE MARKET FOR SANTANA WAS HIGH?!?!
WHY DID BILL SMITH SIT ON HIS _ _ _ THINKING SOME HOW THE MARKET WOULD IMPROVE?!?!?!
I want anwers this is unbelievable.
*(if the market for him is low, what motivation is there to improve an offer) Bill Smith and the Twins organization were idiots on this one. Any one who says other wise is an idiot.
Drew
a comment like that really calls yourself out..
not only do you make fun of people in here with your comments,
You make yourself look like a fool by making a twins statement.
i am guessing you are a GM?
must be, since you made a comment!
Boston was NEVER a serious player in these talks, and even if it were, the Mets deal is better:
–In every ranking of the top 50-100 MLB prospects, Gomez ranks higher than Ellsbury.
–Ellsbury is a Scott Boras client, meaning no extensions–three years of arbitration followed by full-tilt free agency.
–Lester has had cancer.
–Masterson projects as a setup man. Just what the Twins need.
–Lowrie is average at best at short. He’d have to play third to help the Twins, and his ability to do that was by no means a certainty.
Best pitcher in baseball. Didn’t get a major league player. Didn’t get the Mets top prospect. What are the net $$$? Carl thinks its a great trade.
Let’s hope the Mets DO sign Santana. If they don’t, the Twinks will get far LESS than this.
Also, with the A.J. trade…everyone wanted Mauer to catch and AJ was in the way. The AJ didn’t seem good or horrible. The anger on this trade is about what we could have gotten instead. Thought Smith was doing a nice job but this was definitely a “rookie mistake”. He didn’t maximize value….he minimized it. Sorry.
I don not blame Bill Smith, I blame Carl/Jim Pohlad for being the cheapest SOB in town. If I read one more word from Sid Hartman about how these people should be local heros I will lose it.
HORRIBLE
angery dan,now has to work
Drew,
You got something. You should have gotten more.
“These “prospects” won’t even come close to making the Twins’ Major League roster in 2008 or at any time.”
We will see Gomez this year. He played 70+ games for the Mets last year… and if you havent noticed, we dont exactly have anyone in CF yet… it might not be at the begining of the season, but at some point he will be there…
Any of you who have stated that Santana leaving the AL is worth celebrating are in a state of denial that I wish that I was in. I wouldn’t have cared where he went if we got some level of value in return! We should worry about the Twins getting better, not about the possibility of facing Santana two times per season. Why couldn’t one of the top three richest owners in all of pro sports just have shelled out the money for the best pitcher in our generation?
This blog is full of crappy fans.
MH… believe me… i ahve plenty of baseball knowledge… this is not a good trade… i went to school in new orleans (the zephyrs are the minor league affiliate of the mets, and play there) and was a season ticket holder… i’ve lived in new york my whole life… as i said before… mulvey is a good prospect… guerra, you can’t know anything about… i really hope that the prospects work for you… i always respected the twins… but gomez hasn’t proven he can do anything but run… .273 average, .329 on base percentage… 3:1 k’s per bb. that’s scary… although he does have scary speed as well, i do not think he will ever be a legitimate hitter (think .260s to .270s, .330 on base, about 40 steals [just because he won’t get on base enough]) and no power. i know that humber only had 1 start and 5 appearances… but over a 7 era is pretty horrible… also he’s the oldest pitcher of the rest of them, has already had surgery, and couldn’t keep below a 4 era in the minors. I’m just saying that compared to the other deals that were on the table… where there were 4 players… 2 prospects… 2 that have SUCCEEDED in the major leagues (in both of the deals) and you would get the SAME youth… tell me where i’m wrong… having the team in the NL is not THAT important… hell… how many times you gonna meet a team in the regular season in the al anyway? max of 9? so 1-2 starts vs santana? and by the time you regroup and make the playoffs… santana may not be on the team he was traded to anymore anyway to meet you in the playoffs… it’s horrid
twins could save a lot of money on scouts by just reading this blog.
Time to move on. Nobody ever really expected to keep Santana past 08. The Twins got the best they could get from anybody, considering the economics of signing him to the long term contract he will insist on. Twins have proven time and time again that they have a great eye for talent/prospects, I don’t doubt this trade will be favorable for our team. This and the recent signings of Morneau and Cuddy will be the groundwork for having a top-tier team on the field for the first season in the new ballpark.
WTF are the Twins doing? We just get Liriano back, and could *possibly* make one final run at a championship with both Santana and him at the front of our pitching lineup. Now…we’re screwed in the high powered American League. There’s no way we make it past third in the AL Central, and quite possibly will be swimming with the Royals in the cellar this year…and next…and next. Pitching (especially Johan) was our strong suit when we went up against the big bats of Detroit, Boston, New York, Cleveland, Chicago, etc. Now we’ve got Liriano and Scott Baker? Oooh, they’ll be shaking in their boots…
Twins should have at least waited until mid-season to trade him to a contender who was stocking up for a playoff push…but only if we weren’t in the hunt ourselves.
The prospects are nice, sure…but nothing that is going to help us in the short term. This is not going to be a competitive year this year, folks…we’re back to “rebuilding” as usual…like the T-Wolves with Garnett, we had one of the top 5 players in the game, and too cheap an owner to go out and get the necessary pieces to win a championship.
Thinking about it, that’s probably why Morneau and Cuddy got long-term deals BEFORE they traded Santana away…that’d be the only way to convince me to stay during the lean and mean years ahead.
Sigh…at least we got rid of Carlos Silva this off-season.
Another note…we shouldn’t bother to keep Joe Nathan now. With the pitching we’ve got left, there aren’t going to be very many games for him to save this year…cough, cough.
For better or worse this is what we do.
Trade expensive assets for pitching prospects and try to develop the next one.
All eggs are in the Liriano basket for ‘08.
Fans lift their eyes to the horizon and see sunlight glinting off of steel and limestone.
Maybe Nathan can bring us a piece for 2010.
What a bunch of overreacting people!!!! I think the same thing was said when we traded Knoblauch. That turned out alright. And look at him now.
Lets see, on the one hand you have a pitcher that wants too much money and a dead line. I think the Twins did ok, not great but they got more than they got for Torii (I still can’t believe 80 million). Also a trade like this can’t be fairly evaluated today, get back to me in 2 years. Hopefully it turns out to be AJ trade good.
The White Sox fans in my office are all smiles now.
Anyway, I am glad to see Johan go to the NL so the Twins might only see him once every 3 years. Plus he always has been decent with the bat.
I still would take this trade over the 2 draft picks. The Twins probably would have used those on hitters, and we all know how well the Twins do with that in the minors.
Here’s Peter Gammons on the trade, sounding thoroughly unimpressed:
http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/videopage?videoId=3220926&categoryId=2378529
Drew
Have you ever heard of CREDIBLE SCOUTING REPORTS ONLINE? Everone says that Humber and Mulvey are HORRIBLE. Gomez and Gueere(whatever his name is) have raw talent. But way to big of a risk.
The Twins could have had
Ellsbury/Masterson/Lowrie/prospect
Lester/Crip/Masterson/Lowrie
Hughes/Cabrera/Marquez/prospect
* All of those deals are MUCH better? This is not rocket science. I dont have to be a freaking scout to tell you that. WE FLEECED OURSELVES PERIOD. I cant believe that people are saying
“wait and see how things pan out” OR
“we are not scouts”
QUite saying those ignorant remarks and admit this is the worst trade in recent history.
Corey - You said, “These ‘prospects’ won’t even come close to making the Twins’ Major League roster in 2008 or at any time.” How the hell can you POSSIBLY know that, or even come close to knowing that???
“Did we get Hershal Walker, Randy Moss, and Kevin Garnett in the deal also?” No but may BS got the Brooklyn Bridge int he deal or a cheap Rolex!
Fire Smith!
and all the fans please stop saying “it’s okay… we couldn’t have signed him anyway”… that’s not the point… the point is that you didn’t get the best deal on the table for some unknown reason
Kurosawa:
Every ranking?
You mean like this one that has Ellsbury 13th and doesn’t even have Gomez on the list? But I guess MLB.com isn’t a reliable source of baseball info anyway…
Twins GM Bill Smith really blew it. His best chance of getting best value for Santana was at winter meeting. Even Mets would have paid more at the time.
How can Twins mgt ask us for increase tix prices and charge $6 for beers and only give us this lousy 2008 team!!!!!!!!
GOMEZ IS A TREMENDOUS OUTFIELDER.
I’ve seen him play in Spring Training, AAA and Majors.
See if you can find the play he did at Yankee stadium, robbed a homerun and doubled up Matsui at second with a canon.
He may need a lil help with the bat but you guys got a very talented kid.
And he can swipe bags in a blink of an eye.
Mulvey doesn’t have great stuff but he’s a bulldog.
He’s be good.
I think that if Gomez lives up to his potentional the Twins could have the best outfield in the bigs.(in a few years) I think Guerra will be an ace and Humber and Mulvey will be solid.
It looks like the Twins have returned to the Calvin Griffith Era circa 1977. The Twins are once again a farm team for the rest of Major League Baseball. They no longer care about winning. I want my stadium tax money back ASAFP!!!
I’m just sad I’ll never see Johan in a Twins uniform again. Watching him dominate, especially when he and Liriano were going tag-team, was some some of the most exciting baseball I’ve ever watched.
Clearly, this is a shame simply because a Johan-caliber pitcher is irreplaceable. Go Mets…I guess.
Kind of disappointed we didn’t get Hughes because I thought that was the best option. He would have formed a potent combo with Liriano. I completely understand getting him out of the AL where you would have to face him almost every time you make it to the playoffs. I kind of figured the Mets wouldn’t give up Martinez, but I am pissed that we didn’t get Pelfrey as one of the two pitchers. I think the Guerra kid will end up being very good in a few years especially with our history for developing pitchers. It all comes down to this Gomez kid though. I am going to trust the Twins scouts who think he is going to be special. Is he going to hit or not? He will be special in CF and is as fast as Reyes at the top of the order, but if he can’t hit he is going to have major problems in the bigs. It is unfortunate that we didn’t get an immediate CF or replacement in the rotation this year. If we could have gotten Pelfrey he would have figured into the rotation this year. We already have Slowey,Bonser,Perkins,Blackburn ahead of Mulvey and Humber but I guess it adds more SP depth which is never a bad thing in MLB. We are really going to let it ride with the kids this year with a presumptive rotation of Liriano, Baker, Slowey, Bonser, Perkins/Blackburn. Lets hope Liriano is at least 80% of what he was in 06 or we are going to be in trouble.
WTF????????????
Wow, were cursed Punto is still on this team and now no ace on the pitching staff. Another Minnesota sports franchise get’s duped by an east coast team. Let me be the first to predict that the Twins will force feed these guy’s to the majors and they will all be flame-outs with not one major contributor.
Over-played hand and outsmarted that’s what happened to Bill Smith he was holding Kings and got smoked by the ACES. Pohlad can stick Nick Puto Up his butt.
Eric
you just told me what your opinion is..
Gomez is 22
Humber apparantly has had 5 appearances in the bigs.. an era over 7, with 5 major league appearances is not much of a sample
so, you can keep your opinions, you are projecting what you think.
you think humber is not any good, you think gomez is a .260 hitter..
i am saying it takes time. these kids are young
twins know how to make trades. If you follow the twins or are a twins fan, then you already know that.
And if anyone can turn a #4 starter into a #3 starter, its rick anderson.
Let the trade playout
it will be a year or two.
but guerra has a 6′5 200pd frame. and some big upside.
Do not come here saying the twins got a terrible trade.. doing that is just jumping to conclusions and its personal opinion
My opinion is yes, boston had a better offer.. more mlb ready talent. talent that was closer to being in the bigs..
but time will tell how this trade works out
Tyler - You have to calm down. We are saying “we are not scouts” because that is true. When you say that everyone says Humber and Mulvey are terrible you just lose all credibility. That simply isn’t true. When you say “online scouts” and then refer only to SOME online scouts, and ignore the Twins’ record of independent scouting (no one else was on to Johan when we were), you make yourself sound self-important. You’re not even waiting to hear the Twins’ story.
As Kurosawa pointed out, Gomez is rated higher than Ellsbury by most ratings entities. And Guerra has been touted as potentially another Johan by several others. We have to try to stay rational about this.
They way you hear Peter Gammons talk about these prospects, the Twins just made a terrible trade. The only prospect Gammons had anything good to say about was the A-ball pitcher. The Twins didn’t get an OF with any power (which they really need). How could the Twins not get either of the Mets top 2 prospects for a multiple Cy Young winner? Now Santana will go dominate in the inferior NL. I’d put money on this being viewed one of the worst trades of all time in 10 years.
These prospects are crap:
Gomez: Typical overhyped NY prospect…remember Lastings Milledge? He was even more hyped and look how far it got him. Gomez can run, but that is about it.
Humber: He has a 4.11 ERA in the MINORS. We’ll be lucky if this guy turns into a 5th starter. Lucky.
Guerra: A single A prospect–these guys have about a 10% chance of ever seeing the majors.
Mulvey: Probably the best of the prospects, and he’ll be average at best. He hasn’t exactly dominated hitters in the minors, but he has been decent. We’ll be lucky if he is as good as Carlos Silva.
Why in the world would we do this deal rather than take the compensatory draft picks? The draft picks would have been better, plus we would have gotten another year of Santana and Liriano. Stupid.
RyanW says:
“We will see Gomez this year. He played 70+ games for the Mets last year… and if you haven’t noticed, we don’t exactly have anyone in CF yet… it might not be at the beginning of the season, but at some point he will be there…”
I understand that.
No proven left fielder, center fielder, third baseman, shortstop, second baseman.
They’ll be coming up, but only because they refuse to sign AND keep veteran players that are proven. Ponson? White? Sierra? BOONE? Batista? Cirillo? The list goes on.
I don’t have an issue with developing from the minor leagues and building a core of young players, but at some point, a GM needs to pull the trigger to acquire worthwhile help (Redmond, Rogers, Nathan, etc.). But it seems those deals are very few and very far in between with this team.
And here we are losing the best pitcher we have ever had…for “prospects”?
No logic, other than to save $$$$$$$$$.
I’m sure Ellsbury is relieved. He could have gone from the World Champions to Minnesota. Fun for him, eh? Or what about Hughes? He could have gone from “The Yankees” to the Homer Dome. Bet he is relieved as well.
It seems like the Twins did not have much of a choice; but i do not like the fact we did not get a proven bat out of this deal. The mets are high on this Gomez, but he has not been able to hit at any level! Hes never batter higher then .280! So we traded for another Denard Span? So we lose the best pitcher in baseball and still need a centerfielder..great..
I’d feel a lot better if we had been able to pass off baker or bonser to the rays instead of garza. opening day rotation?
Baker
Bonser
Perkins
Slowey
Humber
Will Liriano be ready?
Will Blackburn, Deunsing Swarzak or Mulvey pitch their way into contention for a spot?
Still deep in pitching, but the top top end is missing now (except for a healthy liriano of course).
well the only way this trade works out well is if Gomez ends up being a stud and one of the three pitchers turns into at least a #2 behind Liriano.
I would like to see the Twins do something with all these pitching prospects.
Mets Fans are very excited to have Santana. All the sports channels in NY are talking about how we totally shafted the Twinkies. They are comparing this trade to December 10, 1971 when we dealt Nolan Ryan and others to California for shortstop Jim Fregosi. This time we did the robbing! Mets fans thank you idiots in MN for giving us the best pitcher in baseball for a sack of balls.
If this is the best deal right now, why didn’t the Twins wait until the trade deadline? Four prospects. From what I’ve read thus far, none of the prospects are steals. I hope the scouts are right.
Awful… simply awful. We couldn’t get more out of arguably the best pitcher of this era? And in the prime of his career? I am just disgusted that the Twins were willing to give up so much on such a risk. I know they whined and whined about Santana being a risk for such a long contract, but getting four unproven prospects in return seems like just as much risk to me. Way to make it look like you care Pohlads (i.e. Morneau/Cuddyer signings) before sticking the knife in the back of all the Minnesota people who supported your stadium plans. Score one for the cheap-skate billionaires.
What, we couldn’t get a bag of balls and a used pair of cleats?
MH… it’s not the major leagues for Humber… i’ve seen him pitch in the minor leagues… he is a 25 year old that doesn’t pitch below a 4 era in the minors… the other two options you had to build around were lester (projected 3rd starter, so anderson could make him a 2) or Hughes (projected 1/2 starter) and both of them have proved that they can at least replicate humber’s MINOR league numbers in the MAJORS (and both of them are younger by years)… if the trade works out beneficially… that’s great… but consider that these other offers were on the table, and you really don’t see out of division al teams that often, and it’s not like santana would pitch every game against you. of course you can’t write off the trade… but the other ones were much closer to a sure thing!
How the hell did we get better players for Matt Garza then Johan Santana?
What a choke job? A bag of used baseballs and a broken down pitching machine for the best pitcher in baseball.
Knoblauch wasn’t a first-ballot HOF.
just listen to how even the mets fans are talking about this… you all are talking about how we just don’t know… we don’t know too much about these guys… the mets fans KNOW these players and all of them are TRASHING them, saying that they’re horrible… the best you get is “well… gomez is gonna be a nice little player eventually”… a nice little player… and that’s jsut projected… not definites (like melky who’s done it for 2 years, or coco… or the even better prospect of ellsbury who can alread hit and still has speed)
1) If the proposed Johan Santana trade to the Mets goes through, which team would be getting the better end of the deal?
89.6% Mets (would receive Johan Santana)
10.4% Twins (would receive Carlos Gomez, Phil Humber, and two minor leaguers)
Steve - Gomez isn’t on the list because he’s not a prospect anymore. He played too much for NY last year.
Eric - We didn’t get a better deal earlier because everyone thought Smith would get a better deal if he held out. INCLUDING 80% of the posters here. I heard that over and over again. I tried to say that his contract demands limited his trade value, but no one would listen. So Smith did hold out for more, and now is being criticized by the SAME PEOPLE who were telling him to hold out because the deals would get better.
Another sad day for Minnesota sports… another MN great in the Northeast.. Moss, KG, Santana, etc. etc. etc.
So let’s see, we let the best CF in baseball leave for no immediate help but we do get draft picks………..that might never help. We trade the best LHP in baseball for no immediate help but we do get prospects/suspects………..that might never help. Shrewd! Oh that’s right, we are a “small market” team and our owner can’t afford players like Santana because our owner is only………….the richest owner in baseball!! Well, they couldn’t do better because we didn’t help them build a stadium ………….wait a minute, Hennepin County is helping them build a stadium! Somewhere Carl Pohlad is chuckling. This Twins fan is crying.
John Torvik
Savage, Mn
This trade will probably do as much or more to hurt the support for the Twins by the fans as all of Pohlad’s cheapness before now. I know I am disgusted. They could have at least made it ‘look’ like they tried to get a good deal for Santana.
Eric - You’re a complete idiot who’s trying to fan the flames over here on the Twins site. Before the deal all the Mets fans were over here talking about how they didn’t want to trade those guys and how good they were. One warned us that no matter what happened Mets fans would come here and gloat. I guess he had you in mind.
dennis… i’m in new york… who did these posters think you can get? only the red sox, yankees and mets have enough to spend to take on that kind of contract… and the mets didn’t have anyone in the minor leagues, or cheap youth in the majors they were willing to give up that could match the offers that the yankees and red sox were putting up… Smith really should get fired for this
I am done watching the Twins. How can they continue to work under the guise that they are trying to compete every year when they trade the best player in the majors? I’m sure we’ll find another Rhondel to fill a hole and then the owners and front office will try to sell it as competing.
Dennis says:
“Corey - You said, “These ‘prospects’ won’t even come close to making the Twins’ Major League roster in 2008 or at any time.” How the hell can you POSSIBLY know that, or even come close to knowing that???”
I’ve been watching this team in person 70 times a year between Spring Training and Reg. Season for the last 10 seasons.
It’s been an endless revolving door of prospects.
If, and I stress IF, these four make it on to the Metrodome turf to play, it’s because one or more of the following: Lamb, Everett, Monroe, Young or Harris, has proven they can’t play everyday or have been injured.
Sure, these “prospects” MIGHT play for the Club, but not as starters out of Spring Training. They are food for the minor league grist mill.
The minors are full of guys like these: dime a dozen.
Now we have four more. Hooray.
I think we can all agree that the Twins made the best of a bad situation. Yes, ideally we should have signed him to a five year extension after the 2006 season that would have probably only cost us about 5 yrs $75-80 but we didn’t. Yes, I think the best trade possibility was aquiring Hughes/Cabrera/Horne or Marquez but we didn’t. You can even make a substantive arguement that getting him out of the AL makes the Mets deal increase significantly in value. The bottom line was that we were never going to get the Hughes/Kennedy/Cabrera or Ellsbury/Lester/Lowrie or Kemp/Kershaw/LaRoche deals that we all wanted. The Mets weren’t even willing to give up Martinez so our positioned was rather weakened. We did pretty well considering the position the Twins were in. If Gomez and Guerra turn out to be very good players this will be an alright deal. We can all agree that these four players is much better than two first round picks in the draft. Surely Gomez and Guerra have shown they are first round talents already. Not to mention I think Humber was a first round pick too but has suffered numerous injury set backs. The only thing to argue is whether you wanted Hughes, Ellsbury or Gomez. Also the importance of getting Santana out of the AL which I think is very underrated. You have to realize that the Red Sox and Yankees are in the playoffs every year and when the Twins make it they will UNDOUBTABLY face Santana at least once or twice a series. It would be far too painful to watch Johan throw 3 hit shutouts against the Twins in Divisional Series games.
I’ll be interested in knowing what this “rube” Smith has to say about the trade. I’ll be expecting a “damage control” interview in the next day or two. If the Strib poll is any indication, fans are not happy about this trade!
The Twins were in a tough position. They got a deal done and now they have one of the farm teams with a nice young nucleus.
Its a big deal to the future of the Twins to keep him out of the AL. Plus it will be fun to watch Santana’s overall game in the NL.
Guerra will be the key to this deal. It will be fun to watch the kids grow and with the 3 new pitchers, the Twins can go all position players with their top picks this year.
Quit being a much of babies, not one of you could have constructed a better deal.
Hysterics ’round the hot stove…
I draw solace from the hand wringing and whining done by so many Twins fans here. Remember when the team dealt AJ Pierzinski to the Giants for prospects named Nathan, Bonsner, and Liriano?
How many of you nattering nabobs of negativity pissed and moaned about that trade? “AJ’s an all star! And all we get are these 3 unproven talents? We got pwned!” Thank goodness you’re only opinionated fans, and not management.
Scott James,”I pretty much agree with you. Johan did not want to be here. Reusse just said that Johan is a good guy, but he hated taking losses in low scoring games. He wanted to go, and Bill Smith was boxed in by TR. Oh well, let’s hope the 4 prospects work out and see if there are any more moves before ST.
It really is surprising how many people on this blog think they actually understand baseball economics. There is a reason Bill Smith is where he is.
I think this is a good deal not great but good. I think Gomez is going to be much better then (Christian Guzman) like some dumb a** said earlier.
I think this will pay off really well for the Twins. Yes prospects are just that prospects but they are prospects that in many ways are better then a lot of the prospects the Twins have.
So all I am saying is lets, let this whole thing play out, we have to have patience, I mean come on, if any of you pissing and moaning about this deal are actually Twins fans you would learn to react after everything has panned out. (i.e. AJ, Knobby, and many of the other trades they have made) those all worked out pretty well.
So lets just chill and look at the big picture.
I’m bummed. We traded the best pitcher in baseball for a few maybes. This trade is going to set us back 5 years. We are going to have to get lucky on a Rule 5 guy again.
I don’t know if this has been covered yet (I grew tired of the posts after a few dozen) but I look forward to seeing JoJo at the plate every five days. I bet he hits about .300.
For those who doubt how bad a deal this is, check out Peter Gammons’ assessment on ESPN. This is a stinker of epic proportion. The Twins had far better offers at the winter meetings.
dennis. i’m not a mets fan… i’m a yankees fan that wasn’t wanting to part with the young talent, and take on another big contract… i don’t want to fan flames… i feel horrible that this deal went down, and think that you should take more action about it… it upsets me… and being that i didn’t want to make the trade, then that’s having me say that the red sox had the best package… you think a yankees fan would want them to get santana? hell no… so i should be happy… but i’m so upset that someone could botch a trade this badly, that i’m here trying to find out what people are thinking in minnesota… why someone in that organization thought this was the best move… and i haven’t seen an answer yet
Fans can rant and rave about this now, fans from other teams can come and rip on us, national columnists and analysts can knock the deal… Just like with most of our trades, we’ll have to wait and see how these prospects work out. How many times have we made a deal that turned out to be a good one when it was originally thought to be a bad one for us? Give it some time. That being said, I’m not happy with who we got but I have complete faith in the Twins’ scouts to correctly read talent.
What I will say, regardless of if Johan forced the Twins’ hand or not, is that all this talk about getting a deal that was structured around competing in 08 was a total kick in the nuts. I’m really, really curious to hear how Bill Smith justifies it and to hear LENIII’s take on how we came out. I also hope they decide to start Gomez in CF. Let the kid learn on the job. If they pick up Patterson then I’ll be REALLY pissed.
Eric, Bill Smith should get fired for this? C’mon. He may have waited a little too long if earlier reported deals were accurate, but he was not bargaining from a position of strength with Johan wanting out.
trading for prospects is a coin toss. But compared to all of the other packages mentioned…. I’m awfully disgusted. I didn’t want to see the Twins compete this year anyway…..
http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/videopage?videoId=3220926&categoryId=2378529
Peter Gammons
“Carloz Gomez is OK. He might be a fair player.”
“A Ball Guy is a good prospect”
“None of the 4 guys from the Mets would be in the Top 10 for the Sox or Yankees”
Wow. The trade may work out but there were better deals out there earlier.
I may not be a scout, but Gammons is close to the situation.
I hope that this doesn’t go down as the worst deal the Twins have ever made. Why did the Twins hold out so long only to cave in to a garbage offer? I agree with “rghrbek” that Hughes and Cabrera was the best of the offers. However, I would have kept Santana all year and let him go as a free agent rather than blink in the stare-down with the East Coast bullies (Red Sox, Mets and Yankees).
if the yanks or sox were not going to sign him for the 7 years that he wants, there would have been NO DEAL.
schuey, Gammons is probably just bummed that his Red Sox did not get Johan!
patrick… even if the trade turns out to be a ‘good’ trade… meaning that these players actually live up to the potential… the potential for the players are 3/4 starters and a leadoff hitter… the other deals were much more guaranteed, and the prospects of the starting pitching involved were aces… not 4th starters… so even if it was a ‘good’ trade in the end and they become solid 3/4 starters… what if lester and hughes become aces as they are projected to be… then it can’t be considered a ‘good’ trade, because the other offers on the table outperformed what you got
Thumbs down. The Twins really should have received at least one proven pitcher in return.
But, what did we expect? Should we have expected the Twins to make a great deal?
rpb,
Gammons makes an educated guess just like everyone else. Time will ultimately determine if this deal is good or bad.
i’m going out and saying Carlos Gomez will play cf for the twins this year
confused… i think that you are exactly that. If you read more articles i think that you’ll see that all three have been stating that they “won’t sign him to more than 5 years” i of course think that santana and his agent will push for 7 years, and they both will settle on 6 years for approximately 125… it’s not as if the mets weren’t saying the same thing about not “wanting to sign him for more than 5 years”… because they were… it just wasn’t publicized as much because no one thought that smith was going to make such a bone-head move
Time will tell everyone. I hoped for more too, but at least it’s done and we can look forward to ST. Go Twins!
Its going to suck to not Johan anymore. I sure hope they did the right trade.
Great. No Fernando Martinez. The Mets really got themselves a prize for very little. Congratulations, Omar. You’ve just shown the Twins what it’s like to have a real GM running the show.
BS: “I have this pristine Rolls Royce on which I no longer wish to make payments. What am I offered?”
OM: “Give ya 50 cents.”
BS: “Sold!”
That is all.
Wow we just traded the greatest pitcher in baseball for 4 guys who couldnt make the speacial olyimpics.
I can’t believe we gave up the chance for Lester or Ellsbury for this.
Peter Gammons just said that not one of the players the Twins received would make the top 10 prospects list of either the Yankees or Red Sox.
This can’t be playing well in Minnesota.
Robertson, Burnett, and Guerra pitching for Fort Myers. That should be a very good young rotation
The draft picks and one more year of Santana in a Twins uniform would have better than the chumps we got in return.
Typical overhyped NY prospects. Just to clarify, Melky Cabrera is in that class too. Two full years in the majors and can’t slug over .400. How is that a prospect? I think Hughes will be the real deal, however.
Regardless, the Twins needed offense more than anything. We seem to be able to develop pitchers, but not hitters. I would have liked more offense in the trade.
Man you people are lunatics. Is Hughes/Cabrera/Marquez or Ellsbury/Lowrie/Masterson really that MUCH better. I agree that the Yankees deal was better, but then again Santana is a YANKEE who pitches against us all the time. Ellsbury is ridiculously overrated, he reminds me of all the hype over Shane Spencer and Ricky Ledee when they had timely late september and early october contributions for those Yankees title teams. But, Hughes is the real deal and I really believe that many Yankees brass where very hesitant to give him up. Although we all know the Steinbrenners’ would have overruled and included him with this generation’s Koufax (Santana) for the taking. We can use Mulvey and Humber to pair with Nathan and get some decent players back. Gomez and Guerra will turn out to be pretty good. Remember speed is not teachable and from all the reports I have read this kid is one of the 5 fastest player in MLB RIGHT NOW. If he can learn some patientance and just put the bat on the ball he could be incredibly dangerous hitting leadoff ahead of Mauer,Young,Morneau. 70+ steals is not out of the question if this kid can get on base at just a .350 OBP clip.
You can say wait and see about any and every trade. That doesn’t mean that one side didn’t get the better of the other. The fact is that of the offers that were made public, this would have to rate as one of the worst. Ellsbury is not a prospect. He was rookie of the month of September immediately following his call-up to the majors. He then proceeded to hit .360 overall in the playoffs and .438 in the World Series - against playoff caliber pitching! This is the kind of return, along with the others offered in that Sox deal, that I would expect in return for arguably the best pitcher in baseball.
I think we all know that it will take time to officially grade this trade, but on the surface, we got the third best deal available.
If today’s rumors are true that the Twins offered 5/100 million, at least they are making legitimate efforts to retain players like Johan and Torii. In the end, if they want to go and they have the leverage the FO is in a bad way. I hope that Bill Smith continues to lock up talent long-term on a faster track as he did with Mauer, Morneau and Cuddyer. Even though this deal is somewhat disappointing, I think BS looks like he’s got a plan. Go Twins.
To the people complaining, 3 things:
1. Who did you expect us to get? Minaya said OVER AND OVER we were not going to get Reyes. So I suppose you are bitching about not getting some kid named F-Mart? Do we know how good he COULD be? No
2. I predict Gomez will be Reyes II and y’all will be wishing you didn’t say these things. Give the deal a day or two to soak in and to not look at it biasedly.
3. Come back to THIS board in 5 years and see who got the better end of the deal.
I bet the answer will surprise you and Gammons.
In years past we’ve seen teams give up a lot more at the trade deadline for a star pitcher that would become a free agent at the season’s end than the Mets just gave up for Santana. I would have rather been able to enjoy watching Santana pitch for the Twins for 1 more year (and them having a decent chance to make the playoffs), than see the Twins get ‘may be good players’ prospects that won’t have an impact for a few years. The Twins should have seized their opportunity now.
Maybe we should all listen to Peter Gammons.
A. Never been a scout
B. East Coast writer
C. Life long Boston Fan
D. Less than a year from a major stroke.
This was better than having him start the season with the Twins.
hey, at least the twins GOT something out of it. If the Twins paid him 120 million, they would go broke. I would rather have those 4 guys who might be able to do something in the FUTURE, which the Twins are kind of trying to rebuild a bit for, and then we have 3 pitchers that maybe one of them will become pretty good. the sox and yanks weren’t willing to give the Twins what they wanted, and so the Mets was probably the best choice. This year will be tough, but by the time the new stadium is open… watch out
The goal of this trade was to stockpile more questionable, average AAA pitchers than any team has in the history of baseball.
I can see the rotation ERA now…
1) 4.75
1) 4.75
2) 4.75
3) 4.75
4) 4.75
LEN III, your a joke go work for the Fargo Forum and report on the bison. How do you get out scooped by a national reporter on this trade?? Now you can go enjoy your winter because your SOOOO busy in the summer telling us nothing.
The Twins did the best they could. With Santana having a no-trade clause, and only a tiny number of teams able to afford to sign him to a new contract, the high payroll teams had all the leverage. The Yankees and Red Sox really had no holes at the top of their rotations, so they didn’t really NEED Santana. The Mets were really the only team with the money and desire the make the trade.
You get back 4 great prospects in return. You’ll really love Deolis Guerra and Carlos Gomez the most. I had been hearing Deolis was untouchable on the Mets websites. He’s got amazing stuff. He’s probably about 2 years away from pitching in the majors though. Carlos Gomez moves right into your CF position and probably becomes your leadoff hitter. As a Mets fan, I really hate to see him go. He’s even faster than Jose Reyes. He could lead the whole league in steals. He has a lanky-strong body type that should also develop 20-25 HR power. His defense and throwing arm are spectacular. When you see him play, you won’t miss Johan quite as much.
For a smaller market team that just lost Torii Hunter, Gomez is a perfect fit for your club.
We traded the greatest pitcher who wants 7years for 150 million $ it’s amazing how many of you say we traded the greatest but seem to forget the big
sticking point of the contract. What did you guys expect. The Twins took what they believe is the best deal, and I think they would know better than any of us which is the best deal. My question is if Hughes and Ellsbury are such great players why would their teams want to trade them considering how bad the Yankees pitching is and that Crisp is not a great player for Boston. SO what I’m saying is I don’t know how this trade will work out but the Twins know better than we do.
This is a terrible day to be a Twins fan. And TJ, I’m sure you’re teaching a course on baseball economics in your spare time. Don’t try to compare this deal with Knoblauch and Pierzynski. Knobby was one of the better second baseman and leadoff hitters in the game while A.J. was a slightly above average catcher. Santana has been the best pitcher in baseball for the last 5 years. He is the best pitcher the Twins have had in their 40+ year history and probably will be the best they will have in the next 40+ years.
If you are lucky enough to have a once-in-a-lifetime pitcher like Santana…YOU FIND A WAY TO KEEP HIM. As a fan, how can I get excited about these four prospects? A poor, poor, poor man’s Juan Pierre, two Lohse’s and an 18-year-old.
Oooh, at least we kept him out of the AL…like that matters. The objective is to make yourselves better, not keep your main competitors from getting better. Anyone who says something like “at least we kept him out of the AL” has been drinking a little too much of that Minnesota Sports Kool Aid that the Twins and others like to pass out.
I am sickened that the Twins apparently have no choice but to trade the best pitcher in the game and the history of the team for four guys who, if we’re lucky, maybe two will be average Major Leaguers.
I am even more sickened that so many Twins fans are so clueless that they are actually saying things like, “they made the best of a bad situation”…please, wake up.
Twins fans have right to be extremely angry at the front office for f…ing this situation up so badly.
AJ is not a first ballot HOF. Knoblauch is not a first ballot HOF. All of these players people keep on bringing up are not first ballot HOF players.
THE MAGNITUDE of this trade is the major factor here. A player of first ballot HOF caliber should be traded for actual MLB players who can contribute right away…not a bunch of prospects. Sickening.
Eric says:
January 29th, 2008 at 5:04 pm
patrick… even if the trade turns out to be a ‘good’ trade… meaning that these players actually live up to the potential… the potential for the players are 3/4 starters and a leadoff hitter… the other deals were much more guaranteed, and the prospects of the starting pitching involved were aces… not 4th starters… so even if it was a ‘good’ trade in the end and they become solid 3/4 starters… what if lester and hughes become aces as they are projected to be… then it can’t be considered a ‘good’ trade, because the other offers on the table outperformed what you got
almost all of us said wait for a better offer and its being reported the johan only wanted to be traded to the mets
and wating would of mad it worse because the yankes out and the redsox didnt want him that bad any ways so ho do you know that they would give hime 6 or 7 years and 150 million the twins offered johan 5 years and 100 million so its not like twins lowballed johan on a contract and gomez is a perty good player wait a couple of years before you say this is a bad trad i dont like it but i dont hate it it’s better then two draft picks he wasnt going to sing with us
The Twins are smart at gaging a players peak. Look at Knoblauch, Cordova, Scott Erickson, Pat Meares, Koskie, etc. There are players that have gone on to have better careers (Ortiz) but we’re not a big market team. Morneau and Mauer are the future of the organization. Santana has 4 good years left in him. That’s what the Twins saw and they offered a fair price. Why get stuck with an inflated salary for 3 years when you can go young. Same goes for Hunter. Torii’s career peaked now he’s sitting back collecting a paycheck. If one of the four players we got today turns out to be an All Star and one an everyday player it’s a good trade.
pirdie starting, and neither mets pitcher will crack our rotations, failed trade, awful. putrid, we could have had lester or hughes.
sportsguy…right on! There will be many surprises in baseball over the next few years within the Twins organization and MLB. Sure things fail, and nobody’s become stars. Stay tuned….
Either of the Boston trades, or the original Yankees trade, would have been far superior to what we got from the Mets. Like the man said, we got better players for Garza than we got for Santana.
Hi Minnesota fans, I am a Yankees’ fan, and cannot believe that you traded him for NOTHING. I live in New York and hate the Mets. Guys, don’t try to justify the garbage you got back in return. Gomez can run, but can’t hit, which is pretty important, unless you are fielding a track team. But since it is baseball.
Phil Humber is a 1st round bust. I think you guys saw Phil Hu…, but your gm should have realized it was not Phil Hughes, it was Humber. Yuck. Kevin Mulvey is a so-what player. At best he will be a 3rd starter. Big deal, you can find them anywhere. Guerra is 19, and I don’t think can even read. Unlikely, he even reaches the majors.
You couldn’t even get Fernando Martinez. Is your GM drunk, or just stupid. You should have kept him until July, and you would have gotten more in return. Or made the trade when we offered Phil Hughes.
Thanks again for making Mets’ fans day, and ruining mine, as a Yankees fan. Yo, I think Kansas City has more talent than you guys. But, you do have Matthew or Michael or John Cuddyer. Let’s be honest does it even matter what his name is. He stinks too.
“There is no way to spin the result as anything other than a complete failure of the whole organization from ownership to management.”
JR, you absolutely don’t know that at this point. To assert that the day at this early juncture is absurd and 100% pure speculation.
sorry twins fans, but you got fleeced.
This was a semi-forced trade set up by Terry Ryan not signing Johan to a long contract. LAST YEAR he may have agreed to a 4 year 80 million extension. Ownership probably did not allow TR to pull the trigger. Bill Smith has another of the same situations staring him in the face, Nathan trade. I trust the Twin’s scouting ability. Look at the A.J. trade. Twins were panned for that. Now it is rated as one of the BEST trades ever by the Twins. Other teams have almost been “afraid” to trade prospects to the Twins the last few years. Lets wait & see how it turns out. Johan could win the next 4 Cy Youngs in NL & all 4 of our prospects from Mets could get injured or bomb out badly. Or all 4 could become solid or better players & Johan could throw out his elbow in the season opener when Mets pitch him 140 pitches for a complete game shut out to justify his big contract. Most likely the result will be somewhere in the middle. We do not know the true details of all the offers. We do not know what demands or guidelines Johan gave the Twins for any trade. He may have told them he would ONLY accept a trade to Mets for all we know. Also, remember there is DEFINITE VALUE in trading him to the NL. I thank Bill Smith & Twins staff for NOT settling for 2 draft picks. Johan may have told Twins he would NOT SIGN with Twins no matter what. Who knows? Let’s have a little faith.
nobody wanted to pay for johan. thats the problem. nobody wants to pay 120 million for a guy. except the yanks and sox who can actually afford it. everyone else can’t. the mets will pay him, but that’s because they have a chance, and some extra dough$ too
We are…who the rest of the country thinks we are. Farm Team for the East Coast. The nickname “Twinkies” will start to make a comeback this year…we’ve lost all respectability again…hello mid/late 90’s losing ways all over again.
The Star Tribune had this right from the beginning actually. Back in November, they said GM Bill Smith was targeting Delmon Young and Carlos Gomez as two young hitters he wanted. They acquired both.
Bill, with your attitude and comments, I am not so disappointed that this trade ruined your day. Personally, I can’t wait for Spring Training and looking forward to 2008 and beyond. Go Twins!
I am so depressed
Bill Smith has to take a large part of the blame for this trade since he held out to long but at the same time some of the blame has to sit on Terry Ryan’s lap. Is this Front Office turning into the TimberWolves?
bill the yankees fan, your another new yawker who likes to squawk about stuff that doesnt concern him. you probably have a little teeny weenie schmeckle too.
Hang in there McFeely. When Gomez hits .300, steals 50+ bases and plays Gold Glove caliber center field this year we’ll all cheer up!
Gammons is a tool sorry to say. I barely watch ESPN anymore since their East Coast bias makes me want to puke.
NO ONE knows YET how this will work out. Maybe Johan in his first AB tries to get an infield single while sliding Punto style and tears a rotator cuff. Or perhaps Johan wins 5 straight NL Cy Youngs.
It’s too bad that 5 years $100 million wasn’t enough for Johan, but I think at this point even if the Twins offered more he would be gone. I think he sees that the Twins window has closed for now and perhaps just wasn’t satisfied with a team whose goal seems to be to wear championship t-shirts that only say “AL Central.”
As for these “prospects,” same thing. No one knows how they will develop. Gomez could become a stud in CF and make us forget #48, or he could become Rich Becker. Who knows?
Plus, what if the Mets shortchange Johan and the deal falls through?
so when exactly did the Twins hire Kevin McHale? Must have missed that news
It’s funny how all this played out. At the onset of this I really thought that we could get Cano and Hughes from the Yankees. I also definitely thought a Ellsbury/Lester combo with another player was a very fair offer for both teams. I still think that is fair value, but we have learned that “fair value” doesn’t mean anything with impending Free agency, no-trade clauses, record contract extensions, and player set dealines in the mix. It is very hard to trade one of the best players in a sport. Look at how poorly the T-Wolves did with dealing Garnett. At least they got one good young ALL-STAR caliber player in Jefferson. Let us hope that Gomez can turn to be as talented as Big Al. It is impossible to get fair value for a “top 5 player” unless you deal him for another top 5 guy or you get a multitude of talented young guys. The problem with our multitude is that most of them are not that special.
jama, I agree that Bill waited too long. But so far, I think he’s doing a good job and I like his approach far more than TR’s.
Has anybody considered that maybe the Red Sox and Yankees were never that serious about trading for Johan? Neither of them really wanted to fork over the amount of money he’ll command, they just wanted the other team to do that.
So maybe we could’ve done the preliminary part of this deal with the Yankees or the Red Sox. But then they would’ve turned around, offered him $80/4 years like the Twins, have it turned down, and we get nothing but draft picks. It seems a little naive to think that, just because the rumors were for Ellsbury or Cabrera, that we actually would’ve gotten them.
Thanks for all the memories, Johan. Don’t let the door hit you on the butt as you leave. Maybe you’ll break a leg running the bases now that you’re in the NL…would serve your greedy arse right. 4 years at 20 mil would have been perfectly fine…probably only have 2 good years left in ya anyways. Unless you’re on the ‘roids like Clemens…
lets just hope the twins have learned something and offer longterm contacts to there star players now guys like Joe Mauer 3 years left sing him after or during the 09 season to a long term contact Francisco Liriano Pat Neshek and Jason Kubel if hes a good dh thes are guys i would hat leaving
There is NO way this will ever beat the Hughes/Cabrera deal.
Shaun, I agree, this is not a done deal yet. Not until Johan signs. I’m anxious to see how that plays out.
Good trade. Rule #1- never pay too much for a pitcher (see all of the Yankees success trying to do just that the last 10 years). If you are going to spend big money, spend it on your everyday players, not on a pitcher that can only affect the outcome in 1 out of every 5 games.
Last I checked, for as good of a pitcher as he is, Santana still did not win 20 games last year. Rule #2- Don’t be afraid to go after young talent and develop it. Depth will be a huge benefit in the long run. The only two established players that were worth pursuing with the Yanks and Red Sox were Ellsbury and Hughes, and most people didn’t even know who Ellsbury was until the playoffs last year. I don’t believe that Hughes was ever available, since Cashman is now pulling the strings in NY instead of George’s kid. Cabrera is a #4 outfielder at best, so no loss there anyway.
terry ryan had no balls. at least bill smith has some cahones to make this team different. i give him credit for that.
Do you guys think the Twins like Gomez more than F-Mart? I don’t understand how they chose Gomez?
Phil Lose, there is NO way that you can possibly know that now!
This smells like Terry Ryan. We just got screwed and didn’t even get kissed. Nothing for Ortiz, nothing for Castillo, now nothing for Santana.
Big whoop.
i forgot Delmon Young on the players i would hate to see leave Justin Morneau anther one but hes a twin untill 2014 i thinkyoung 2014 or 2015
Lemme get this right:
Santana
+
Hunter
+
Garnett
=
Just like Omaha, but cold!
How so fans forget, Ortiz did nothing for the Twins and no one wanted him and what did you expect for Castillo and his broken legs? Give this trade some time the Twins may have some more moves left.
MyBoyBilly,
I agree. It’s improvement for sure.
kenny rogers,
don’t be a nattering nabob of negativity.
focus on the positive!
ortiz sucked so bad he could be in free agency. castillo is old and at one bend at the waist could snap, and johan’s trade will take time to tell if it was good. now we should go out and sign sydney ponson for 4 million dollars and trade for julio franco for a long term contract till he dies
As a Mets fan,
Don’t listen to Gammons, thats ridiculous. I think u guys will love Gomez, he is an awesome fielder and has a rocket of an arm. I also think a few years down the line Guerra could be real solid, hes extremely young.
I feel for u guys, this is not an easy pill to swallow. But then again, you guys have the Fleece of the Century in the Pierzynski deal. Which is right in front of the Mets dealing Kazmir for Victor effing Zambrano. I guess what goes around come around. good luck, its been nice chatting with you guys
For Gammons to say Guerra would not be in the Yankee’s top 10 is the dumbest thing I have heard all day… he would be in their top 5
hard to make a deal when you are not holding any cards
good humor My Boy Billy! I am anxious to see if there are anymore moves made before Spring Training. Doesn’t seem to be allot out there, but maybe BS has another trick up his sleeve.
What frustrates me is that Santana pushed the Twins so we could not get appropriate value. Maybe we ought to call him Johan Marbury
I just heard Peter Gammons say “not one the Mets prospects would be in the top 10 of the prospects of the Yankees and Redsox.” Yes I may not know as much as the Twins scouts but Gammons knows a little bit about baseball. This is not a good trade. In a league with few true aces you don’t give up a once in decade pitcher for what most are calling marginal prospects. If only we could get a stadium deal done so we could compete with…oh wait a minute.
None of those prospects grade out higher than a B. The Mets wouldn’t part with Fernando Martinez anyway. Santana wouldn’t have waived his clause for the better offers in Boston and Pinstripes anyway because they wouldn’t offer 6 or 7 years on an extension. Only the Mets were foolish enough to offer that, and that is what forced our hand.
Congratulations on the deal. The Twins didn’t get enough and might rue the day of this trade. But I don’t think the Twins had many options, since I believe the Yanks and the Red Sox had pulled back their offers. I notice LEN3 doesn’t mention the Yanks. The reason: the Yanks were no longer players.
Time will tell. Maybe Gomez will become special. I hope so for the Twins. They should have at least gotten Pelfry.
Baseball just got more exciting in NYC, if this deal goes through. And the Mets are back in play.
Dear David,
You ef’n ay the twins have some more moves left. Right into the cellar of the AL Central. Dismantling the best
lineup in 17 years, one by one!
well minn fans, you waited too long and got garbage back! Thankfully you turned down Phil hughes !!!! crazy- he is the best pithing prospect in baseball…thanks!!! The yanks wised up took him off the market and the best deal by far for Johan was history because of greed. Watch hughes and melky all year shine while you have the grade b prospects.
jim,
I’m frustrated with Johan too. I wonder how he’ll hold up under the bright lights and media/fan scrutiny of New York. If he signs a contract…..
Roundie- so long friend… touche on the Pelfrey call…
Terrible trade. Tim Kurkjian and Peter Gammons all say we didn’t get the best for Santana. Doesn’t everyone think the best pitcher in baseball would be worth the best prospect in the Mets farm system. Also, since when have the Twins had the need to trade someone in the last year of a contract before the season starts. The Twins got scared and they lost on this one. They should have kept Santana until the deadline and got a better deal.
goyanks- enjoy being the second best team in NY. And watching the Red Sox own you for the next few years until the Rays start to own you…
Everyone needs to stop bringing up Knoblauch, Pierzynsky, etc. We’re talking about the Sandy Koufax of his generation here. Domination in every important pitching category, EVERY SINGLE YEAR!!!
Whoever said that we need to look at the magnitude of this trade was right on. Whoever is trying to stick up for the Twins by bringing up Knoblauch or Pierzynski is delusional and probably doesn’t actually know a thing about baseball.
Santana’s don’t just fall out of trees.
Also, stop talking about prospects. Well, we got Swarzak here, and we got Duensing here, plug in Benson over here…do you know the odds that these guys will even get to the big leagues? Even if they do, what are the odds that their performance will be anything other than forgettable. Prospects are called prospects for a reason. Best pitcher in baseball for 4 maybes and I’m supposed to give the Twins slack b/c they were in a tight spot?
No thanks.
Melky would be nothing if he wasnt surrounded by superstars and Hughes isnt the best pitching prospect in baseball, the best is Joba Chamberlain. Id rather have Clay Bucholz from Boston than Hughes.
I have been on the Twins website every day for a month, and Ellsbury, Hughes, Lester are available which are huge for our club that fits holes, and we get Gomez, I will say I don’t know enough about the prospects, but I do know that the other 3 would have helped us out a lot more, ONLY good thing is he went to the National league.
Let’s hope management knows something we don’t and 1 or 2 of these guys pan out.
so who do you think will play cf Carlos Gomez i wouldn’t mind seeing him go down for atlest half a season in triple a eather starting Cf twins or triple a
Jason Pridie eather the starting cf in triple a or for the twins
Denard Span bench on tripel a think twins last faith in him
Craig Monroe could be the cf for us but i doubt it
Darnell McDonald could be on the bench for the twins but my guess is tripel a
OF Kenny Lofton i think the twins still could sing him for a one year deal but if they don’t the cf for the twins would be Carlos Gomez with michel in rf and young in lf what do you think
What the??? The last superstar left is #28.
the twins blew it…Hughes and Cabrera step right into starting roles and they trade for some maybe in 3 or 4 year major league prospects..giving up the best pitcher currently in the game……..good work….
Extend Nathan NOW.
Give him the mariano rivera deal (3-45) with 6 mil SB up front and 3 yrs at 13 million,
we won’t need to spend money for 3 years now anyway. We can always trade him next year. Look at Aggie and Reardon, they pitched well when they were in their late thirties. Johan won 15 games last year.
Replace that with 10 wins from a Perkins or Slowey and that is not so bad, and our offense is much, much improved. No need to throw in the towel Twins fans.
This deal is not much different from the best Yankee/Sox offers.
Hughes/Melky
Gomez is way better than melky.
Guerra has potential to be better than hughes, but Hughes is better now and FINISHED last year much stronger than other rumored pitchers, that doesn’t mean he will have the best career. Pitchers always shine in the Yankees system but position players struggle, which says something about the leagues they play in.
Ellsbury/Lowrie
Gomez is ranked higher than Ellsbury on most prospect lists, however ellsbury hitting major leaugue pitching is more of a sure thing. However, most of those hits will be dink-and-dunk singles. Gomez also has a much stronger arm. I know some of you are in love with ellsbury, he just screams Tyner 2.0 to me. Lowrie fills more of a need, but I still would prefer guerra. Lester I want no part of, he is highly overrated.
The 3rd/4th players, while not studs, are better than the ones the Yanks and Sox were offering. Humber was the #3 overall pick, but had Tommy John surgery. The Twins are reported to like him, hopefully he can regain his stuff.
Mulvey is very similar to slowey, just has that instinct how to get hitters out and a nice repertoire of pitches.
I still would’ve preferred pelfrey, but maybe the twins didn’t want another headcase after garza (who will get shelled big time in Tampa because he relies way too heavily on his fastball).
We have a big backup of pitching talent in the minors, my hope is we trade some of it for a legit 3b prospect.
Kenny Rogers, the best line up-thats funny considering that so called best line up has not won a world series. Look at the AL the Twins with Santana were not going to win it this year, so take the best offer you can get, did the Twins wait to long to make a deal sure, but unless you were in the front office we do not know what was really out there. My guess and I mean guess is that the Yankees and the Red Sox did not make good of offers as we all think.
I’m laughing at all of you Twinkies. BS, aptly named, passed on a starting SS/2B, CF, #2 Starter and a future closer… for a bag of balls that won’t play until 2010. Money helps, but top management wins championships. I don’t think BS will ever be in Ryan’s league… and most likely won’t be in the Major Leagues much longer. Let’s see what he gets for Nathan… a fungo bat?
The Twins just got fleeced. Bill Smith just fell flat on his face. The team with the wealthiest owner in the game just traded the best pitcher in the game for a bunch of prospects who won’t amount to a hill of beans. I’m a Braves fan and I feel so sorry for the Twins fan base.
Way to go Twins. Now we can develop more prospects, we can trade them back to the Mets when they start to produce. We will still have the best farm club though.
I agree with Gates. (Bill?) Ask any manager what they need, and they say “PITCHING”! You better believe a good pitcher affects the outcome of more than 1 out of 5 games. Tom Kelly says those guys are the ones that create the havoc in the opposing dugout. There I said it!
the next step should be dealing nathan now
Mabybe Bill Smith is in over his head. I cant believe we just had to trade Santana before the season. I would have just hated to have the best pitcher in baseball for half of a season 
Santana is great in the clubhouse and unless he said he wasnt going to report to the team we had no reason to trade him right now. Also one of the pitching prospects we received has already had Tommy John surgery.
As much as I like and respect Peter Gammons, the fact that he didn’t know Guerra’s name (he just called him “A ball pitcher”) tells me he isn’t as knowledgeable about these particular players as some are giving him credit for. Guerra was the at least the 2nd biggest piece of this trade (after Gomez), if not the biggest.
Given the recent success of the Twins’ front office at identifying undervalued talent in other teams’ farm systems, I’m giving them the benefit of the doubt.
With all of this negativity, you guys sound like a bunch of know-it-all Red Sox fans.
Go Twins!
What a shock………..Twins fans are complaining about another trade. I can’t remember the last time fans of this team were pleased with a trade the team made. History has shown that the Twins nearly always end up on the better side of these deals, and yes is IS important to bring up Knoblauch and Pierzynski GATES. When we unloaded Pierzynski everybody thought that was a bad move as well. Hardly looks bad now does it? Same for the Knoblauch trade, as anyone with half a brain should know.
Re-signing Johan was NEVER going to happen, because of two simple reasons: Johan didn’t want to be in Minnesota anymore, and he wanted his contract to break the bank. Simple as that. There was a reason the team managed to keep Radke around all of those years, and it was because unlike Santana, Radke didn’t want to be here, and all he was ever after was a fair deal. Simple as that.
boooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
I was really hoping the Twins wouldn’t take the Mets deal unless Martinez was included. I wanted Hughes and Cabrerra from the Yanks plus another prospect.
This deal weakens the Twins this year, will lead to Nathan getting traded and who knows if will be better off in the future? We needed young major league ready players like the Yanks package or Ellsbury from the Red Sox. I’m very disappointed in this trade as it stands today.
Would someone please correct me if the past years Twins lineup wasn’t the best in 17 years! Didn’t they win a gazillion games and 5 Division Championships?
Casey says:
January 29th, 2008 at 5:08 pm
Wow we just traded the greatest pitcher in baseball for 4 guys who couldnt make the speacial olyimpics.
-well, you seem like you may be the authority on that one.
as for gammons, i like the guy, but he is such a boston homer that you can’t trust his judgment.
i still think it is possible that johan told them n.l. only.
Gates,
I loved having Johan, but comparing him to Koufax is unrealistic. I still want to see how he holds up on the big stage. We’ll see.
I think the Twins overvalue defense, so in comparing Ellsbury v. Gomez, they saw two fast guys that can cover ground, but Gomez has a plus arm where as Ellsbury has a below average arm. Gomez is younger. But when comparing offensive numbers, Ellsbury has a far better OBP…
If Gomez wasnt rushed through the Mets system, he would have put up better numbers and we would all feel a little better about this deal. I would like to see him play a whole season at AAA this season.
With the Twins thinking that they cant go into the season with Johan in the last year of his contract why didnt they trade Hunter before the season. Also, sticking with this philosphy I would guess this means that Nathan just has to be traded before the season as well. Billy Smith better learn how to play with the big boys pretty fast and if not demote him or get rid of him.
anyone who defends the TWins on this, we know is a stooge
YOu dont trade a player like Santana for MINOR prospects
there are those who wanted him signed, there were those who wanted to trade him for a name player, there were those who wanted top prospects, like Martinez, but NOBODY in their right mind can defend this
dont give me this baseball insider know better crap
this is a direct result of Carl being cheap and refusing to sign JOh an to a comnpetitive deal
this trade stinks
Did I just see a Yanks fan saying something about greed? Excuse me sir, but I believe if you look the word “greed” in the dictionary you will see one of two things; a big fat George Steinbrenner staring you back in the face, or just a big fat Yankee fan.
I don’t want to be a nattering nabob of negativity, but didn’t we get Rick Agalaira and some others from the Mets? I’ll hold my breath.
“With all of this negativity, you guys sound like a bunch of know-it-all Red Sox fans.
Go Twins! ”
-From the know-it-all Red Sox fans
World Series Champions, Super Bowl Champions… You need to get your head out of the ice bucket long enough to recognize that Boston is a superior Sports Town… ask KG!!! NBA Champions
I feel like Santana felt last year when he said the Twins’ management always plays for the future and never for the present.
Boston Tom has it wrong:
“BS, aptly named, passed on a starting SS/2B, CF, #2 Starter and a future closer”; Boston wasn’t offering that much, they were offering one or the other, not all as part of one - they just weren’t willing to trade that much. Still doesn’t mean I agree with the trade.
Way to go Twins, way to kill off more of the team. Are you aiming to be the first team to move into a new stadimum and have no opening crowd? As mentioned you have the HW trade, then Culpep and Mos, and then KG. Hell lets just give away Gaborik while we are at it to make us totally look like a$$es. Another reason Im slowly becoming a Brewers and Packers fan. Bite me MN Twins.
This is an absolute DISASTER. Just a terrible, terrible trade.
This state fought for years to build a stadium that is ultimately going to help put more money in Carl Pohlad’s deep pocket. He repays us by refusing to pony up for two of the team’s most beloved players ever.
The fact they waited this long to take this trade instead of getting two major-league ready players is a debacle of historic proportions.
Maybe Mr. Pohlad needed to foreclose on even a few more farmers back in the Great Depression — perhaps the interest over time would have been enough to cover the extra costs!
I am one Twins fan that is absolutely furious by this, and I sure hope there are more who will come out over the next few days. Please voice your displeasure with the worst ownership in sports.
Steve, that is the stupidest thing I have heard hear
trading AJ or someone liek that, you get prospects and hope to get lucky, which they did
you dont trade ahall of fame pitcher on a gamble.
I accept people complain about trades, but EVERYONE wiht a brain knows this a s bad trade, even if the players turn out good.,,, if they get lucky, that does not mean it was right to take this gamble
Everyone who is calling Johan a first ballot HOF’er is DEFINITELY being a little premature. He’s only been a starter for 4 1/2 seasons, and yes they have been 4 1/2 PHENOMENAL seasons. But I don’t think even Babe Ruth’s ticket to Cooperstown was punched after 4 1/2 years.
Not saying Johan won’t be in Cooperstown one day, but to say he willat this early stage in his career is a bit premature.
The Twins have been great the past 6 years or so, but lets not forget they had some pretty forgettable years in the mid to late 90’s. Those were some terrible teams with some guys that had no reason to be in the big leagues. Guess what, most of the guys in the front office were evaluating the players were were drafting.
Boston Tom: Don’t be on your high horse just because your sports teams are doing well NOW - it might be another 85 years for any one to win another championship!
It’s cold (and just got colder). Another Minn. team screws up in the off-season. What’s new…
Your only about an hour late on this story fatboy … you were awful quick to serve up the rumors though … what a hack!
Well Kevin (Original one), what you said is the stupidest thing I have heard. If the only thing you can say is that what I said was stupid, that’s all I can say for your comments I’m afraid. Why don’t you learn how to spell check your comments while you’re at it.
Let’s see..We lost Tori Hunter earlier this offseason, and now Santana. If it was inevitable that we were going to lose Santana, then we should have at least kept Hunter! Twins took it on the chin on this one. The prospects we received from the Mets are basically just a dize a dozen type players…
Displaced Twins Fan:
Did you say 85 years???? My gawd!!! Didn’t the Twin’s have two World Series Crowns in about a third of that time?
I’m afraid I would have switched to the Yankees in 85 years! That’s humiliating!
I think B.S. was in a predicament; Santana wanted a big contract and risked Santana not waiving his no-trade clause once the season started (or even Spring Training); NY may have backed up thinking they’ll gamble with with they have plus did they really want to spend another $20 to $25/yr on a player and NOT make the playoffs. Boston didn’t really need him with the pitching they already have - they were just in it because NY was sniffing around. The other options were Seattle and the Angels and I don’t think either were willing pay Johan the money he was looking for - especially when they can get Bedard for half as much!
kenny rogers,
Aggie worked out pretty good, and we also got Tapani in that deal David West was supposed to be the phenom in the trade and he didn’t amount to much. You never know. Also, as much I like Santana, if he duplicates his stats from his first 8 years over the next 8 years he still won’t be to 200 wins and he’ll be 37 years old. Granted he might win more in Mew York, but I think we need to keep perspective. If he lights it up in New York and the 4 prospects don’t amount to much, I’ll be the first to say we got the short end of the stick. I just think with all the built up expectation, this deal is a little anti-climatic. Time will tell.
Clearly, the days of Terry Ryan are over. We trade the best pitcher in baseball over the last 10 years for the Mets’ trash, not a single proven player in the bunch. This is worse than the KG trade. Peter Gammons is saying that these 4 “prospects” wouldn’t crack the top 10 prospects in the Red Sox or Yankees organization. What a waste. So glad our tax money is paying for a new stadium for a last place team.
Kirk,
I am most definitely irritated by this trade. They got far less for Santana than they should have.
But this is far from the worst organization in sports, or even in the Twin Cities.
The Twins on their worst day still put the Timberwolves to shame.
Pohald bought the Twins for 35 milion in the mid 80’s. Now he gets a new ballpark. Twins should have signed Hunter, signed Santana, and still acquired Young from TB…just imagine …
Hahahahahahahahahahahaha
That’s all I can say about this one. I remember the days when you Twinkies were demanding things like Ellsbury+Bucholz+Lester or Hughes+Kennedy+Caberra.
Hahahahahahahahahahahaha!!! Bill Smill just got schooled by Minaya/Epstein/Cashman.
Steve,
I agree, Johan has along way to go be a first round HOF’er.
Kenny - I was trying shoot Boston Tom off his high horse; Boston is riding the tide now of all their pro teams doing well NOW - but it might be 85 years (Red Sox last championship season, plus Celtics traded away their future for KG, Pats are one Tom Brady broken leg away from being an average team). So he should enjoy his situation instead of bragging about it!
As a met fan I must think it must suck to lose both Hunter and Santana in the same off season but dont sleep on the prosects you guys got. Gomez is a very good defensive outfielder with great speed..might be the fastest guy in the league if not top 2… Humber is going to be solids and Mulvey and Gurrea are young players who will need to develop in the minors next season but dont sleep on them…And you got Santana away from boston and the yanks. Plus calm yourselves that you get shafted every trade..Guess you guys forgot how up destroyed the giants in the liriano trade
It’s a shame the revenue structure in MLB doesn’t allow the Twins to keep someone like Johan for his career.
(Oh, and spare me the Pohlad bashing)
As for the return …. methinks some people have highly inflated views of the Twins leverage in this situation.
Ya’ll just beat the hell out of the Twins for letting Hunter leave as a free agent.
Now you demand the Twins play chicken with their trading partners & Johan to extract some imagined haul of talent in return - - - yet NO ONE CREDIBLE ever reported something like that haul was possible.
In the end, the Twins had a lousy bargaining position:
* Johan’s in the last year of his contract - he’d be free agency bound at the end of the season;
* Johan has a complete “no trade” clause in his deal, so he could torpedo any deal the Twins might attempt;
* Word was getting out … “Get the deal done now or I’m not going to waive the no-trade for anyone”.
Call the bluff & lose and the Twins get reamed at the end of 2008 for letting Johan get away “for nothing”.
Under the circumstances, you either take the best deal you can get OR “trade” Johan for the two draft picks.
I suspect this deal’s better than the two draft picks.
This is a total joke. I understand that maybe a trade was in the Twins best interest given Johan’s contract situation. But this makes no sense at all. There is no way these players are better than what the Yankees and Red Sox were allegedly offering. I’d rather the Twins keep Johan for one more season and then let him walk at the end of the year.
This seems a clear case of biting off your nose to spite your face. Bill Smith thought he could stick it to the Yankees, that they would cave and give up whatever he wanted. Like other GMs, he asked the Yankees for much more than anyone else would offer. He tried to use Boston to get Hughes and kennedy — when Hughes alone was head and shoulders above anyone else offered by any other team. I think it’s pretty clear the Yankees got pi-ed and backed out. Can’t blame em. They’ve got probably the best young pitching talent in baseball and they seem to have decided they’re not going to get suckered anymore in trades.
The *** didn’t want to play in MN! Can any of you understand that you can’t get what you want for someone that holds the sword over your head?
claudius, glad you’re having such a good day. If this deal works out in the Twins favor down the road, I imagine you’ll be here admitting your mistake. yeah, right!Have a good gloat. Pride goeth before the fall!
Who will have the better offensive numbers at the end of the 2008 season?
Johan Santana or Nick Punto? Sorry, I needed a laugh after the misery of this trade. You don’t trade a 2-time Cy Young Award winner in the prime of his career for nothing but prospects.
I’m with you webellick; you never know what these 4 prospects might do under a different system, different coaches and a different enviornment. Let it play out for a year or two and see what happens. I still think the Twins will be competitive in ‘08; hopefully they’ll take that $13 mil and use it for another bat or something they need.
RyanW,
I’ll be here. I like talkin’ baseball and lot of knowledgeable folks here..
if these are the 4 guys they are getting you’ve got to be kidding me…the twins are a JOKE
Steve I have to disagree with you and agree with Gates. You can’t compare this trade to previous trades. I don’t think everyone screamed when AJ was traded. Most of us were excited about Mauer. We didn’t need AJ and Chuck was a 2nd baseman on a team going no where (rebuilding). This team right now has/had a chance to win over the next few years with a very nice core group of players.
I would rather have seen them risk it all and lose Johan to free agnency. If, big if, Liriano is the player he was a year ago this team with Johan, Young, Hunter, a healthy Kubel, M &M, Cudyer is a serious contender. What other team could match that starting one two? I know I have nothing to risk but I would have risked it.
jim becker, you are exactly right. And the lack of a salary cap in baseball will always be a stumbling block to a team like the Twins, especially with a tight wad ownership.
This is a joke right….RIGHT. PROSPECTS, you kidding me. PROSPECTS? How many of these PROSPECTS will even have 1/10th the impact of Santana….PROSPECTS???? If the Twins could not have come up with a better trade than this…oh wait. They already did with the Yanks and Red Sox. But then cheap Pohlad would have to pay the salaries for the talent. This was a fire sale and we got NOTHING but PROSPECTS. This is a dump of salary and a TERRIBLE trade. Has anyone actually heard of any of these prospects. The Mets kept their top 2 prospects, so we get what….PROSPECTS???
Nice to be done, pity it ends with this.
At least the stadium will look nice…
Zach,
I feel for you, really. The Twins could have handled this trade stuff better and hopefully will with Joe Nathan.
BUT, despite your hopes, the Twins were NEVER EVER GETTING Cano and Hughes. NEVER in a million years.
The Yanks didn’t want to give up Hughes or Kennedy so Cano was never on the radar. It’s Ok to dream.
If the Yanks ever considered trading Cano, it would be straight up for
Santana. Maybe, the Yanks would have tossed in a low level prospect.
Cano knocked in 97 runs and is a lifetime .314 hitter only 3 years in the
league (and he comes cheap). He’s a potential 30-30-100 RBI guy..
For all of you who blame Pohlad for not signing Johan is a joke, the Mets are going to overpay Johan, and have him for 7 yrs. That is overpaying someone and giving too many years. I just think the Twins could have been smarter and gotten more for him. I liked the idea of Hunter leaving and the Twins not overpaying for him too, that was fine, the beginning of the year hasn’t played out yet, I am hoping there is more in the works. We will see what happens and who we get for Nathan.
The thing I can’t help but wonder is how will Santana do without Rick Anderson around. How well did LaTroy Hawkins do, or Eddie Guardado, or Kyle Lose, or, or,or. Rick Anderson is the best pitching coach in baseball in my amateur opinion. Our front office has proven itself MANY times. Peter Gammons makes money by talking well, just like that idiot on the NFL draft Mel Kiper Jr. The twins get prospects and develop them. That’s what they do better than anyone. I hate greedy players and their agents. Lets look to 2010 and be patient.
way to go, you morons! one year, terry ryan makes the greatest trade in twins history, now, this idiot smith, makes the stupidest trade in baseball history. STUPID!
werbellik: I’ll be here admitting my mistake when Humber, Mulvey, or Guerra pitches a no-hitter in the majors. Or even when Gomez is named Rookie of the Year.
Of course, pigs will fly before that happens.
Displaced..I too hope there are still more moves. Perhaps once we get past the Johan trade mania we can throw out some more possible moves before ST on this blog.
my only hope is they draft good players and pay good bonus in next years draft, cause those 2 picks for 1 more season of johan looks better already.
Hey Twins fans. Greetings from NY. I know some of you were expecting more, but I think you guys did OK considering the special circumstances involving Santana — meaning his full no-trade clause and demand for a big payday.
It will remain to be seen how this deal works out as all of the 4 prospects you received are still in their development stages. But I like Gomez better than F-Mart and I definitely like Humber better than Pelfrey. Humber has a better mental approach — makeup — and Pelfrey seems a little weak and tentative on the mound sometimes, though he has better stuff. In this case I would go for makeup over stuff. And Gomez is a speedster who also has excellent makeup IMO. I saw someone compare him to Guzman, but Gomez I think has far better speed and athleticism.
I genuinely hope all 4 of the prospects we sent you work out very well, though that is a lot to ask of any group of prospects. And we’ll take good care of Johan. Promise! At any rate, the very best of luck to the Twins this year. I hope you are competitive very soon, if not this year!
By the time these prospects would even have a chance to make an impact, Mauer’s contract will be up and the Twins will be the new Kansas City Royals. I actually am surprised Pohlad didn’t outright sell Ssntana for a few million.
Kenny Rogers division champs does not mean much if you are not the World Champs. That is why the Yankees spend so much money they want World Championships not Just to make the playoffs. Teams like Minnesota and Oakland have to do things this way with the way their budgets are set. If Santana turned down 5/100 then he did not want to be here so he got traded, over time we will hear what was really out there for him. I upstet that we did not get more but it’s better than draft picks and it’s not the end of the world.
the twins offseason brought the change of having a solid pitching lineup to one of the worst. There placing all there hope in Francisco Liriano who just missed a season after Tommy John surgery.. Are you kidding me?!
Opening day starter Scott Baker? Boof Bonser? Kevin Slowey? A combined total of 107 MLB starts. Wow alot to look forward too.. Thanks Polad you cheap billionare.
Claudius, who is your favorite team? Is there a reason that you have such disdain for the Twins and those of us that are fans of them?
awful trade!! Seriously, if this was gonna be what they get in return, lets wait until July and get the same deal only have 3 and half months of wins under our belt
the twins suck maybe pohlad’s son will make another homo movie
BD… Are you going to the Twins Opener vs Mud Hens. WELCOME TO THE MINOR LEAGUES!!!
Remember, when you play with the big boys, expect to be rough up… a lot.
I remember all you Twinkie complaining that the prospect rich Yanks and Sox where under bidding for the Great Santana. Turns out the Mets had it right all along (bats and balls).
Man, I didn’t know I could grab my ankles for that long! Thank you sir, may I have another!
Smitty
Thanks Metsfan, your posts are always good and contain class. Others could learn from you.
Dear Spangle:
You’re right! Any player that leaves the Twins is jinxed. There is a curse on them, and I don’t know why they would want to struggle some place else. How much money is enough, for crissakes?
Greedy spoiled brown nosed pampered snots! There I said it!
well, the moment has finally come and now i have a pit in my gut along with a bit of hope in my heart…which all means i wish i knew what i want to say, i dont want to immediately say bill smith wimped out, or we should have gotten more, but then again i want to, so i guess all we can do is hope that all works out for us, damn tho i was hoping at the very least that ryan church was involved, in addition to gomez, as i knew we were never going to see fmart…right now i guess i pray that gomez goes to AAA and that pridie is our lightning in a bottle, which i have always believed anyway, and that one or two of these pitchers can help us this year…and the others go to the minors and learn to pitch minnesota twins baseball…now lets get a veteran arm in here to anchor this staff, as i dont count on anything from liriano and anything we get from him will be a blessing and a bonus, and hope the boofs and sloweys have all matured and ready to carry this team…..so i will stay positive and anxious for spring training, but still with a bit of a pit. and btw what about nathan ,…could we use him to get a vet starter or are we better off keeping him and close …..
I think roundabout’s got it right. Once the Yanks and Sawx pulled out, we lost our leverage with the Mets. I didn’t expect it to play out this way a month ago, and I’m sure the Twins didn’t either, but hindight’s always 20-20, and I don’t think we should crucify Smith just yet.
We also don’t know what sort of pressure Santana’s camp used to force the issue. I’d have preferred hanging on to Johan and possibly dealing him mid-season, unless both F-Mart and Guerra were in the package. Is it possible that Johan told the Twins, “Do it now or all you’ll get for me is the 2 draft picks”?
In any case, between the Tigers’ off-season moves and the Tribe coming back strong, there’s no guarantees that the Twins would have made the playoffs this year even with a vintage year from Santana. Liriano still hasn’t thrown a major league pitch since his surgery, and there are a few other question marks. It was unrealistic to expect to deal him AND compete in ‘08, and we should be more concerned with targeting ‘09 at the earliest and more realistically ‘10.
Let’s hope the Twins talent scouts are right about Gomez and Guerra, and that Lester, Hughes, Ellsbury and F-Mart all regress! Time will tell…..
werbellik -Do you normally hold out hope that 25 year old “prospects” will suddenly turn the corner and become something?
werbellik– Don’t you realize that Big City MetsFan is laughing through his teeth at you country bumpkins. How’s the fishing? Frozen!!!
what have i been saying all along?? the twins will end up getting nothing for santana!
kenny rogers says: TWO WORDS… BIG PAPA!!!
Okay come on. I think we could get more if we packaged Nick Punto and Luis Castilla.
So for 2008..
No Castillo, Hunter, Silva, Santana, Bartlett..yet we are going to be an improved team? Twins management is a joke and come October when we finish 4th or 5th in the division, will be proof of this idiot management team. And to think Pohlad gets a free stadium off the backs of Hennepin County taxpayers. And don’t give me crap about Pohlad’s monetary contribution. It is well known that the value of the minnesota twins will most likely exceed his contribution once the new stadium is built. Do you really think Pohlad would contribute any of his own money getting nothing in return. Think again. He pulled a fast one on the taxpayers and will be wealthier for it. Just like this trade helped him financially by dumping Santana’s salary and replacing the salary with a bunch of minor league contracts.
U didn’t even get Fernando martinez?
Hmmm, projected lineups anyone?
2B Harris?
C Mauer
LF Young
1B Morneau
RF Cuddyer
DH Kubel
3B Lamb
CF Pridie? or Gomez?
SS Everett
Hmmm, not as exciting as putting Ellsbury there but then again, I think the jury is still out on that guy. He’s been overhyped during this whole process.
Bill smith overplayed this whole thing! he could’ve had Phil hughes or Lester or ellesbury or Kennedy ETC.
How greedy can Santana be? If we offered him a deal of 5 years and $100 million, plus his 13 million this year totaling 6 years and $113 million when a freak accident could ruin his career tomorrow and all that money is guaranteed? WOW! I am happy he is in the NL, but I would rather roll with our team WITH Santana this year and Liriano, go get Lofton or Patterson and roll with it. We got 4 players from the Mets instead of 2 draft picks. These Mets players could be brutal and never make it in the bigs. I would rather root for Santana this year, maybe he would come to his senses and sign for 5 years/$100 million. I do have to give the Twins credit if they did add a 5th year. Anyone else with me to keep Santana for a bunch of players that may never be any better than Denny Hocking?
Phil Lose, you should look at the ages of the prospects before you make uninformed comments. Do your homework.
Boston Tom, you seem to need a dose of the class that MetsFan has. He is a frequent poster here and I’m guessing you are quite wrong in your assessment. FYI, I don’t fish.
We’ll see how it works out for all concerned in the future.
Ok.. I am ready for the exclamation points to go away.
This is horrible. The wolves are going to have more wins this season than the starting five pitchers breaking camp, for the twins, are going to have in all of 2008!
B and C-prospects for a 2 time cy young award winner in his prime. Unbelievable.
slervball
you didn;t even get Fernando martinez who some scouts say is as good as Ellesbury.
RyanW, good point. I am just really glad this is over and Spring Training is coming soon! I love baseball season!
I wonder if the Yankees and Red Soxs fans realize that they did not get Santana and got outplayed by the redheaded step child the Mets.
Gammons, like most others, over state to back their cause. Gammons said none of the traded prospects would be in the top ten of Bos or NYY prospects.
By John Sickel’s ratings, three of the four prospects would be in the top five of Bos and NYY prospects. And the 4th would be in the top ten.
Here’s John Sickel’s top ten of the three teams:
NYY
1. Joba Chamberlain, RHP, Grade A
2. Jose Tabata, OF, Grade B+
3. Ian Kennedy, RHP, Grade B+
4. Alan Horne, RHP, Grade B
5. Austin Jackson, OF, Grade B-
6. Bradley Suttle, 3B, Grade B-
7. Dellin Betances, RHP, Grade B-
8. Austin Romine, C, Grade B- (hate grading guys who haven’t played yet, could be C+)
9. Jesus Montero, C, Grade C+ (borderline B-)
10. Dan McCutchen, RHP, Grade C+
Boston
1. Clay Buchholz, RHP, Grade A
2. Jacoby Ellsbury, OF, Grade A-
3. Jed Lowrie, SS, Grade A- (too high? I think he’s an A- as a shortstop, but a B+ as a second baseman. Will he stick at short?)
4. Lars Anderson, Grade B+ (a personal favorite, power should blossom)
5. Michael Bowden, RHP, Grade B
6. Justin Masterson, RHP, Grade B
7. Nick Hagadone, LHP, Grade B
8. Ryan Kalish, OF, Grade B
9. Will Middlebrooks, 3B-SS, Grade B-
10. Josh Reddick, OF, Grade B-
NY Mets
1. Fernando Martinez, OF, Grade B+
2. Deolis Guerra, RHP, Grade B+
3. Carlos Gomez, OF, Grade B (undecided, may raise to B+. )
4. Kevin Mulvey, RHP, Grade B (may raise to B+)
5. Jon Niese, LHP, Grade B
6. Eddie Kunz, RHP, Grade B
7. Phil Humber, RHP, Grade B-
8. Brant Rustich, RHP, Grade B-
9. Joe Smith, RHP, Grade B-
10. Nick Evans, 1B, Grade C+
Thanks Metsfan through it all you showed a lot of class, unlike some unnamed other visitors. I think as a Twin fan, we are a bit disappointed in the end result. We started the process believing we would get ML contributors. For the Mets not having to give up a guy like Reyes, they got a steal for the best ML pitcher. I believe any trade with NYM had to be centered around Fmart, Gomez, Guerra. Anything short of that is frustrating.
bean town, you can rip us a new one, awful deal
Can you believe this? The Great Santana is out of the AL, the Yanks still have no ‘08 pitching and the Sox are favorites for ‘08 and the farm is full.
GO Sox
Go Pats
Go Celts
Bruins… just GO
7 years, 150 million….if the Mets pay that,well, good for them. Better them than us. That’s why the Mets have all those World Series Championships in their resumes! This is not a good trade for the Twins, but if the Mets have to spend 150 to sign Santana, then it’s a bad signing for the Mets. The Mets better win a WS, maybe 2, to make that kind of contract worth it. Ridiculous.
Beantown,
I was saying that as exciting as Ellsbury was for a month or two, I think he’s been overhyped based on a very short period. I’m not saying he won’t turn out to be great but I think it’s foolish to say he is a guarantee either.
RyanW
what happened?? I told you the mets were your only hope and all their prospects are garbage, other than Martinez and pelfrey and the twins didn’t even get either of them
Good point Bill. Opinions are like belly buttons. Everyone has one. Some guys like Gammons and others just figure out how to get handsomely paid to express theirs. Only in America!
Beantown- have fun watching David Aardsma get rubbernecked all year… The Mets just traded for the best pitcher in baseball; the Red Sox just traded for the worst.
Three more pitchers with a farm system full of them. Why?
The Twins today made one team really really good today. But the problem is it wasn’t them. It was the Mets.
Twins fan and Raiders fan I just can not win with owners like this??????????
The Twins can’t afford what Santana wants. It’s either trade him for prospects or get 2 draft picks next year when he walks.
Neither the Yanks or Sox were likely to give him the contract he wants, so trades to those teams would have likely been met with a Johan veto.
I like the trade. Of course you’re not going to get full value for a guy who can become a free agent after one more season. Anyone who thinks you can doesn’t get it.
I liked the Yankee offer better than the Red Sox offers. In the long run, this one might turn out the best.
I hate to see Santana go, but he was going to go anyway.
Prospects….we only got prospects. Billy Smith, either you are having your strings pulled by Carl Pohlad, restricting you from trading for anyone who makes a big league salary, or you are an idiot. Just can’t figure out which it is. Billy Smith has already made a name for himself….as did Les Steckel.
Huey, maybe the Twins have some more moves up their sleeves? Right now we don’t have any “great” pitchers, but we sure have a bunch of possibilities.
Hey, we should be applauding. This trade took real talent. Bill Smith managed the trifecta:
1) No major league-ready player
2) No immediate replacement for center field
3) No front-line starting pitcher
Yet the Twins expect us to believe they are trying to “remain competitive”. What complete and utter tripe.
And spare me the AJ trade comparisons. They were different trades. Yes, he was an All-Star catcher but the Twins had a better player they were making room to play. You only get one chance to trade a Johan Santana. There is no better pitcher waiting behind him, especially not now.
Management compounded its failure to sign Torii Hunter when he was still affordable by not getting an immediate replacement through trading the best pitcher in baseball.
My contempt for Minnesota sports management can no longer be put into words.
This is what stinks about baseball. The rich get richer and the poor get screwed. There were only 3 big market teams in the bidding. Baseball needs a salary cap. Regardless of what happens in 2010, this is disappointing.
My 2010 starting lineup
Gomez-Cf
Harris-second base
Mauer-catcher
Young-Rf or Lf
Morneau-first base
Cuddyer-Rf or Lf
Kubel-Dh
Lamb-third base
Castila or Plouffle-shortstop
This trade was the BEST. Are you kidding me. What was supposedly on the table from the Yanks and the Sox was far better. This is a salary dump.
Dan
this can go down as one of the worst trades of all time. the whole time i was thinking you would get hughes or Ellesbury or at least F-mart or pelfrey??
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaha! WHAT A JOKE. THE TWINS AND MINNESOTA WILL GO DOWN AS THE BIGGEST LOSERS EVER!
Stick’em, you are overreacting big time. Johan did not want to be here, and Bill Smith had little leverage given Johan’s contract demands. He probably could have got more in December, but I don’t fault him for waiting. We’ll see how it works out over time.
How about packaging a couple of pitching prospects and Mike Lamb for Carlos Silva…Punto can play 3rd….nd then, let’s sign Kyle Lohse….we’d have our #1 SP for ‘08, Silva #2, Baker #3, Boof #4…..and Gomez, and his .230 average, well…he’ll fit right in with The Piranha’s……woooo hoooooo…..
I wish he stayed in the AL so we could still watch him play
When a MetsFan show more class than a Red Sox Fan… it time for some self examination. My apologies. Just a little hyped up in Glendale.
Back to real news. I hear that the Twins will be trading Jeff Manship for Coco. The stat look good, but what is the story on Manship?
As a HUGE Mets Fan, thanks you SUCKERS!!
Nick
your right, the twins are idiots
Thank you Twins I just bought a Johan Santana jersey yesterday because it was on clearance. Now I know why it was on clearance.
Since we now have no starting pitching there is no need for a Top closer. Everyone should now get ready for the trade of Joe Nathan. Maybe we can get a Center Fielder for him.
Dave T-only because you were the last post.How do you really know what the original Yankees package or the 2 Boston packages were?Maybe the last trade offers this week were JS for Coco straight up or JS for Melky staight up. WE REALLY DON’T KNOW .The only way we would know for sure would be if we gave them all lie detector tests.It’s all speculation.
Ha ha… The Twins got what they deserve for trying to hold up the Yankees…. the detrius of the Mets system. You should have taken Hughes and Melky when you had the chance. But no, had to try to squeeze Kennedy out as well and you gave Cash a chance to regroup and make his case.
The truth is you had to trade Santana b/c your owner is cheap. The Yanks dont NEED him, neither do the Bosux. However, neither wanted the other to have him. After you tried to play them against each other, they decided it was better to play together against you! You brought it on yourselves.
If you’d been smart you would have made a counter offer to the Yanks for Kennedy (who already is better than Humber and will be into perpetuity) Austin Jackson (who will be as good or better than Gomez) and Shelley Duncan (who will hit 30hr in a year or two)
That would have been fair… but you weren’t looking for fair and look what that got you. HA!
The only good thing about this trade from the Twins perspective is they won’t have to face Santana once or twice in the regular season and once in the playoffs… but with what they got for him there AINT GONNA BE NO PLAYOFFS.
BTW: If I were Johan I’d ask for at least 6×25=$150M b/c I’m sure the Yankees would have been happy to pony up if it were money and a draft pick instead of emptying the farm system. Especially if it were a competition vs the Mets and the Bosux. Actually I bet the Mets could be coerced into paying $180M for 7 years since their fans a) have a choice who to root for b) would never forgive them if this slipped through their fingers like the Arod deal c) the new stadium has a lot of luxury boxes to fill with the blood suckers of wall street
i find it a little ridiculous, all this talk of the possible Erik Bedard trade and how it could give the Twins the upper hand in demanding more from the Mets, and the Twins go and deal Santana before any of that…they also just set that deadline for TEN DAYS and they gave it 1/2 of a day…push the deadline, NOW IS THE TIME TO PROCRASTINATE and let them come to you with a better offer…there is NO WAY that more was given up by the Diamondbacks for Dan Haren than the Mets gave up for Johan, those Mets fans have to be jumping off of the walls as we speak because they gave the bare minimum up for Johan…Carlos Gomez hit .270-.280 in the minors, not what i want out of a potential lead off hitter…
I guess part of posting on a blog is being tolerant of people popping off and talking smack. Oh well.
Boston Tom, I had not heard of the trade regarding Manship and Coco. Where did you get the info, or are you messin’ with me? I have heard of Manship but don’t know much about him. Sorry
one of the posts hinted at something that i hadn’t thought of.
if johan was currently under contract for 6 years, 130 million (or whatever it ends up being), would the twins have been able to get fair value for him? basically that is what the situation is. well, that and a no-trade agreement.
a few years ago when the sox were trying to trade manny (who also had a large contract) the talk was mike cameron, lastings milledge, aaron heilman and jae seo.
Like most people here I’m disappointed. I searched the net for som solace, and come up with only the following article from MiLB.com: http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080129&content_id=342919&vkey=news_milb&fext=.jsp
I hope that the article comes true, and provide us with some light at the end of the tunnel.
After reading through half of the blogs I find it humorous to see how many people think this was an o.k. trade. Both the Yankees, and Red Sox offered players who have played at the Major league level, and some top prospects. This was a joke, even if one pans out to be an everyday player this is still an embarassment!!! Can we get refunds on our season tickets? Tired of the same excuses from this team, and I am a die hard fan that has truly given up.
The Yankees prospects are overhyped as usual. Werent they saying the same thing about Ricky Ledee, Ruben Rivera, Shane Spencer, etc, etc. as they’re saying now about Milky, Kennedy, Hughes. These Yankee posters must be too young to remember….
well after months on this blog and trying to predict what the twins would get for Santana, I must say this is the worst possible trade ever. I never thought they would only get these players. the twins had to get at least F-mart or pelfrey and the got neither. the wait is over and all you got is garbage for he best pitcher over the last 5 years.
Minnesota Nice comes through again. Why are we always the ones to give away top talent? We are NOT small market, we are middle market. Pohlad uses the small market crap to justify his cheap ways, yet he IS THE WEALTHIEST owner in all of baseball. Next thing you know the Wild will trade Gaborik and Adrian Peterson will request a trade. Oh the beauty of being a cheap middle market city.
what do you guys think about singing Bartolo Colon he still a free agent and we need a ace
Time will tell….simple as that.
I was listening to the radio earlier and someone brought up a good point, its not how much you get back, but its the quality you get back, so in order to call this trade a success, you need to get someone of Santana’s caliber in return….it cant be a 1.5 + .5 + 1.25 + .75=4 (with Santana being a 4), you have to get someone who can be that 4…
If the Twins had to out do the Timberwolves in the bad trade department, they were successful!
Good article showing the twins new players. On Minor league baseball showing the twins new players like the trade or not.
Another crappy trade.
I wish they would quit thinking of Mauer being the hometown boy and get rid of him. He is consistantly hurt and not all that good statistically.
I am so glad I did not get season tickets this year. KC..here we come, you will no longer be the cellar dwellers.
Kudos Mr. Smith?!
This is unbelievable! People trying to figure out our line-up for next year. You just got the middle finger from the richest person in the state and you’re already getting excited about paying for tickets to watch Mike Lamb and Scott Baker when we just gave away the best pitcher of the last decade. And how are people blaming Bill Smith?????? He did the best job he could in very difficult circumstances. Full blame goes to the Pohlad family which continues to stick it to the very people who fill their pockets, buy their tickets and build them stadiums.
I only feel sorry for Bill Smith because he has to work for the Pohlads.
I really dont think the trade is that bad, it just isnt as good as I had hoped it would be. But I guess that would have probably been the case anyway.
In the past, I had said I wanted 2 of Martinez/Guerra/Gomez… plus Pelfrey and one more (I like Mulvey MUCH more than Humber).
I assumed that if Martinez was out, we would get more on the back end- either 5 total peices or Pelfrey/Mulvey.
The word is the Twins did not like Pelfrey because he is a headcase… we tend to get rid of headcases (Garza/Lohse)
I hope that is a joke about Manship! An article on ESPN insider a few months ago said that this kid could have some of the best stuff in the minors…..For Coco Crisp whop we could have received in a trade for Santana–WTF!!!!!!!
Prospects!!! Bah! Humbug!
I hear you Stick’em. I do not understand the Pohlad’s management style as it relates to owning a sports franchise. That said, I think until MLB has a salary cap we will continue to suffer. At least if there was a cap it would bring a little more pressure to bear for the Pohlads to compete. I just wish old Carl would sell the team.
Boston Tom,
Where did you hear that? Doesn’t make a whole lot of sense for the Twins to get Coco since he’s signed for 2 or 3 years? when we just got a good CF prospect. Makes more sense for us to sign Lofton or Patterson for a 1 year deal.
We knew the Twins were performing damage control when Morneau and Cuddyer signings were announced.
I think the Twins did not rate the players the Bosox offered as highly as other scouting services. They knew they liked the Mets players all along better and the general public would not understand.
Regardless of how this looks in 5 years, the Twins now view Melky as a 4th outfielder, and Hughes was not enough. BS was going to wait before pulling the trigger but Santana’s agent forced a move. I also think the Twins truly tried to sign him to a 5 year deal with big up front money.
Babe’s Ghost
I agree with u 100%. the twins asked for to much from the yanks and Redsox and they end up getting nothing but trash!! hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaa
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah. thank god my organization is not that stupid!
Wow. Look at all these new experts we have on here today! Where you guys been the past 6 months?
Us? We’ve been here dissecting these potential deals, researching players and discussing the ups and downs for that entire time.
Let’s talk about the players in these “other packages” you guys seem to think are surefire hits:
Phil Hughes velocity was WAY down after his arm trouble last year. Can he get it back? Maybe, but he’s got a serious mechanical flaw after the injury that I’m not sure he can fix. I’d feel differently if this was Joba we were talking about. BTW, I saw both of these guys pitch at Yankee Stadium last summer… in the same game. Joba was much more impressive (and effective).
Melky? Melky was a mid-level prospect. He put up OK numbers with the Yankees, mostly because other pitchers relax on him as the only weak spot in that Yankees lineup. He’d get exposed in the Twins line-up. He’s also not even close to the defender that Gomez or Ellsbury are. You know all those fly balls you had so much fun watching Torii track down in the gaps for the past 8 years? Those would all be hits if you ran Melky out there.
Ellsbury? Played OK in the playoffs, but wow, that’s a small sample size. He’s not much more of a sure bet than Gomez at this point. A little more offensive upside, maybe, but not much.
Lester? Great guy, decent arm but he’s at best a #2/3. You got two of those (especially with Rick Anderson’s) help in Mulvey and Humber.
I also like how some of you assume the Boston guys will ALL pan out but NONE of the Mets’ will.
I hate that we had to trade Johan. I wish Pohlad would’ve ponied up for him last year (when he would’ve actually stayed) but now I think Johan just wants out. Period. I bet if we offered Johan exactly what he wants he wouldn’t take it. He’s already moved on, and I think it has less to do with money than it does with Johan realizing it’ll be tough for the Twins to compete and make the playoffs in the AL Central. His odds are much better with any of those other three teams, and he knows it.
And those who think we “lost” out on something because Bill Smith waited simply don’t have all the information. We lost nothing by waiting. If the Yankees & Red Sox were willing to make those deals before, they still are. Nothing with their situations changed (adding/removing players) that would modify those deals. We simply decided that this combination of prospects + moving Johan to the NL was the best long term move of the available options.
You guys have the right to disagree, but don’t call those of who have done our research and been following this closely for 6 months idiots, because the truth is… we DO know more about what we’re getting in return than you do.
Have a nice day.
I bet the Mets will have a deal done with Santana by tomorrow morning.
Boston Tom:
(You weren’t supposed to notice that.)
The Manship for Crisp thing is off a BoSox blog, Sonsofsamhorn, and has no credibility whatsoever.
Yeah, the more I think about this, the more I think Smith’s hands were tied and Pohlad is the real grinch. Although Smith really should have been able to get at least a decent everyday starter. So just how much could we have received in a trade if we packaged Silva, Hunter and Santana last year? There are some on the board trying to blow sunshine up our cavities praising this trade, but we SHOULD have received much more. The management of the personnel of this team has been terrible as of late. We lose top quality talent (Castillo, Hunter, Silva (sort of) Santana) and all we have to show for it is 4 prospects and NONE are projected to be stars. Pohlad…..you can’t take it with you, so just pony up.
Aside from being disapointed by the total package, I have to admit that I am excited to watch Gomez. He might be the fastest player in the Bigs when he gets here…
And I really think the best player in this deal will end up being Guerra. A young Venezuelean with an excellent changeup- those have worked out well for us in the past…
This just hi lites the sorry state of baseball. The Twins and all small market teams have a gun to their head with their star players. The Twins were forced to deal or just get a couple picks next year and thats always iffy in baseball. Yeah they had to reach on this one or face the fans wrath next year when Santana moves on anyway.
The money teams force up the market and then cherry pick the talent. Fortunately, it doesnt always guarantee success for the bankrolled teams. Unfortunately, small markets have to pay millions for losing pitchers with high ERAs and 250 utility hitters. Of course, those costs are passed to the fans.
I’d like the small markets to break away and start their own league. Let the big town teams play each other all summer and we’ll face off in October. We could even cut them a break and do a little interleague play when they get bored with each other. Now that would be fun to watch.
Finally, Gomez called a 5 tool guy, Guerra a cant miss prospect and Hummer (whatever) was a first round pick. Twins did the only thing they could.
Ugh. I just read some of the comments from a Yankee and Red Sox fan. How arrogant and obnoxious. If you ask me, they are just jealous their teams did not get Santana. So they are now trying to bash the Mets prospects.
Granted, I do think Hughes was the best prospect offered to the Twins, but the fact remains he was off the table by the end … and is still unproven himself. And the rest of that Yankee package was nothing inspiring. As much as they say the Yankees did not need Santana, I disagree. Their rotation is currently weak with a washed up Mussina and questionable Wang and Pettitte who is embroiled in his PEDs mess. Therefore, I think many of their fans are just steamed now that the Mets got Santana. The Sox do have a great rotation, but Schilling is on his last legs, and will Matsuzaka improve this year? Maybe Red Sox fans aren’t too sure about their own rotation either.
Just as an example, I saw one of those fans bash Humber. But 1) he pitched in the PCL, a hitters’ league 2) he pitched a no-hitter into the ninth inning at the end of August and 3) the one start in which he did not fare that well was at the end of September AFTER he basically sat around for 2+ weeks doing nothing but a few short relief stints. IOW, they misused him.
At any rate, just ignore some of the moronic Red Sox and Yankee fans. They’re green with envy. I really think you guys did fine.
And BTW, I really do love the personality of Gomez. He became a favorite of mine in the short time he played with the Mets this year. He’s fearless and is always upbeat, like Reyes. Have patience with him. I’ll be rooting hard for both Humber and Gomez to succeed.
when the mets were looking to trade for manny, the bosox blogs all said they were going to get wright and reyes. tons of realism going on over there.
Freez
shut up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! dont defend your team for this terrible trade!!!!!!1
Ryan:
Gomez might be able to run like a cheetah on Wistrol, but I just dont think a Gary Pettis clone will help the Twins long run. Maybe he’s a great glove for years to come, but they really need some pop and OBP, and Gomez offers neither. I’m really disappointed in this whole thing.
Poor Bill Smith got thrown in has the GM of the twins for a challenging off-season. Just think if Terry Ryan was the Gm it would have been an Guerra Mulvey Humber and Pelfery deal.
This is really a simple trade to understand. Pohlad did NOT want to take on more salary for his big league team. It is as simple as that. It appears he dumped Santana’s salary, and he is set with what he wants to pay for 2008. This trade fits in nicely with his tight pocketbook and I am sure Pohlad is going to sleep very well tonight. He could care less what us fans think. Just as long as we continue to spend dollars in Hennepin county so his new stadium can be built to make his team worth more money.
Metsfan
Wang is not Questionable. nobody has won more games than wang in the last 2 years
Beantown already has ordered his David Aardsma jersey, their big off season acqusition…
Twins Fan from Israel…Shaloam! Good link, it does make me feel a little better about the trade.
Freeze, also a good post. I would have liked to see us get a little more but patience is needed, something Yankee and
Red Sox fans don’t have. How well have the Jets, Knicks, Nets, Rangers, Islanders (should I keep going?) done lately? When you have all those teams you can always jump on someone’s bandwagen. Boston guys…Bruins?
Anyway, no more trash talking. The deal is done and we’ll see in 2 years how things are doing.
La Velle, is Gomez a lock to open the season in the bigs or is signing Corey Patterson still a possibility?
Thanks for Johan!!
This made my day–we are jumping for joy after a long boring winter waiting for the Mets to get something done. Did you get enough for him? Time will tell–I LOVE Gomez–how many 6′4 guys are there who are the fastest player on their Team (this guy was faster than Jose Reyes!) He’s still young and a bit skinny–when he fills out, you are talking 25 HR with mad skills in the field and on the bases. On top of that, 1 of the three kid pitchers will turn out good. Humber was a Number 1 pick who did well in the College World Series–if not for injury (Tommy John surgery), he would have been established as a number 3 or 4 starter by now. Deolis Guerra has big upside and Mulvey could end up in your bullpen. Did you guys like it when Pierzynski was traded? I bet you like that deal now. Look–Johan wasn’t staying, so you got something for him and that may turn better than you thought in 2-3 years. I think the Yankees and Red Sox were just jerking each other around –otherwise, one of them would have gotten it done.
Dan
how do you feel?? I told you your team was going to get nothing because they waited too long.
Does anybody have the Twins’ payroll for 08, sans Santana?
Gomez Vs. Ellsbury
Ellsbury has already proven he can do some damage in the majors however I think he’s overrated and he showed his top potential this year. I doubt he’ll ever replicate what he did last season. He may be good but not amazin’
From what I understand Gomez is even faster, steals way more bases, has a stronger arm, and has much higher power potential. He’s also 2 years younger. I’m not saying Gomez will surely be better but there’s definitely reason to think he can be.
I feel the Twins did good. One has to look ahead a year. There’s no way the Twins were going to get what they did when Johan becomes a free agent. The trade may free up some bucks to make another move. Some Twins fans reaction is probably based on what happened when Kevin Garnett was moved and that is fair. And the Twins may slip a bit next year. But the proof will be in what happens in the next 2-3 years.
RyanW
I feel your pain. your trying to cover it up with Jokes!
Freez - good points.
In addition, Hughes had over 4.4 era last year in mlb. He’s not a guarantee star.
Not saying I didn’t want Hughes but I don’t like Melky. Plus Melky already has two years of service which means he gets expensive soon.
With the money involved and Santana’s no trade clause, Santana had to be traded now. I’ll trust the twins’ scouts.
Looks like someone’s Mommy forgot to turn on the kiddy filter for the Internet.
Crisp, believe it or not, is truely better than Lofton or Patterson. The money is right and the timing is in line. The “prospect?” is not ready now, but could be in a few years. The need for a top of the order CF is now.
Feed the Monster your prospects… the Green Monster.
FYI
Phil Hughes had a hamstring injury not an arm injury. A power pitcher needs his legs and that is why his velocity was down in August. By September he was looking pretty darn good again though.
Twins payroll will be something around $46 million. They definately have room to sign someone.
I’m glad they did the deal. We needed to get something for him. Have we already forgotten about Tori Hunter?
Why are Red Sux fans posting here today?
You should be at the Globe ripping your GM for not getting Carlos Santana!
WAKE UP PEOPLE!!!
count me among those that would consider it a great poetic justice if Carl did not live long enough to see his new stadium
Prediction…..the Twins will finish no higher than 3rd in their division for the next 3 years. With Cleveland, Detroit and Chicago and even KC willing to upgrade their roster, we are going to do well to finish 3rd.
I see we just freed up $13 million in salary and got Gomez and Guerra,
We wanted Pelfrey who many scouts think has serious concentration problems (scout talk for “head case”). Instead we got Mulvey who is more stable. We also wanted Church who was going to lose a battle for playing time with Cuddyer. Instead we got Humber which is disappointing, but he WAS their #7 prospect.
Overall, a little disappointing, but Pelfrey and Church are two JAGS. (Just A Guy)
Now trade Nathan for our future stud third baseman. Enjoy watching all the young players develop together. We will probably not contend in 2008 or 2009. Remember how good Tigers & Indians appear to be. Hey more losses this year equals better draft choices. What will really anger me, is if the Twins continue to pinch pennies at draft time. We need to be willing to draft the BEST player available EACH ROUND & be willing to PAY MORE than the SLOT position. We will now have money available. Hopefully the Twins will also trade for a “salary dump” young(er) player such as Coco Crisp. He can play CF & bat leadoff for next year or two. It would be unfair to push Gomez into such a pressure packed situation as being THE PLAYER the Twins traded Johan for, at such a young age. He was really pushed by the Mets. He needs minor league seasoning. I am really surprised we got Guerra, some thought he was untouchable. Everyone pans the KG trade, but in 2 years the ‘Wolves probably would not trade Al Jefferson even up for KG. Who knows how Johan trade will work out. Have a little faith & quit being so negative.
Can I get a little Respect HERE!!!! Everyone ADMIT i was right!!! I told you the twins were not going to get anyone for santana. I told you the yankees and redsox were out!!! and all of you laughed at ME, well now whose laughing its me and omar minaya. hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
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oh happy days!!
La Velle, I’d like you to make a copy of all the comments on today’s blog and replay them on the 1st, 2nd, and 3ed anniversery of this trade. Only then will we be abble to answer the question, “how did the Twins do?”
kenny rogers
Why should be rip the Sox. WS Champs in ‘07 and the Sox are odds on favorites for ‘08. -In Theo We Trust-
Quit mentioning Coco Crisp’s name on this blog! We dealt with that before!
As a Mets fan, I’ll contain my excitetment until I see Santana win 15+ games in the N.L. After Frank Viola, Bret Saberhagen and other A.L. “aces” came over to the Mets and did a lot of nothing, my expectations are controlled at best.
46 mill w/o Santana. If they had paid Torii 18 mill per year, that would be 64 mill for this year…still down from last year’s total. The conclusion is painfully obvious,and no amount of spin on the Morneau/Cuddyer business is going to change the reality. It’s the Pohlad’s dumping salary. That’s all it ever is. On the other hand, the Twins execs, who sadly have their talents largely wasted working for the Pohlads, but they do know what they are doing. I desperately want to give them the benefit of the doubt. I dont doubt they got the best deal they felt they could get. Time will tell. But there is no doubt this whole affair is another quite profitable business decision for the Pohlad’s. That’s bottom line, and when it comes to the Pohlad-era Twins, that will always be the bottom line.
I keep hoping that if we all keep ignoring certain posters that they will go away. Hang in there everyone and ignore.
Boston Tom:
That was supposed to be comic relief.
Where’s Bc Beneke when theres a real story?
I think you’re wrong Beantown because we didn’t get as good as we hoped but to say we got nothing is just ridiculous. We got four B+ to B- prospects according to John Sickels. You’re just being ridiculous and annoying. I’m not even mad at you I just think you’re making Red Sox fans look stupid.
I stand corrected on the type of injury.
Still, I was there in early September for a start against the M’s, and he couldn’t get over 92 on the stadium gun and had trouble getting his breaking stuff over (which is normal for a young guy). He was battling against the M’s but just getting by.
Carlos Gomez has a great article on this at Hardball times. He breaks down his mechanics frame-by-frame and there’s some interesting stuff in there.
I still think Hughes can be great, I’m just saying he’s not without his potential issues as well.
Good point Dan. I think he weighed in early when the trade news broke. Where are ya BC?
You have to think that the Twins aren’t done dealing. I’m beside myself that they let Johan go without getting a proven player that we know today will be on the field opening day this year. They’re getting a new stadium, so they can’t come to the fans with the current team and a payroll $18-20 million less than last year. My opinion is that they needed to open the new stadium with Mauer, Hunter and Johan on the team and 2 of 3 are gone. Maybe Ryan got out at the right time - he knew the direction the team was going and didn’t want it on his head.
JMY9595:
The Met’s got Viola and we got Aguillara and Tapani? I forgot that.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm……………….
Beantown just because the Red Sox didn’t get Santana doesn’t mean they were out of the running for him.
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oh happy days!!
Ike,
Mets have their own cable network.. and probably now will be on the games of the week and ESPN..
Craig should like this move Gomez seems like his kind of player.
Kenny… don’t bring your love to town. Gotta catch my fight. I’ll be sure to bring my sharp stick for you Twinkie fans next time I’m stuck in this lovely airport of yours.
Boston Tom… OUT!
Honestly, Who here is not dissappointed? The Twins could have gotten ALOT more if they took either the Yankee deal or either of the Red Sox’s deals. Ellsbury will be WAY better in the future than Gomez will. Why in the effing world would they take a Mets deal with no Martinez? He would be the only reason to take their deal. Why didn’t they take a deal of Martinez, Humbler and Mulvey? Then we would have a stud and the Mets would still have a top prospect in Guerra. Since they a both years away, I would have way rather had Martinez than Guerra.
Since he’s not here right now is Craig for real or is he just a big joker? Opinions anyone?
I will ignore the poster that think this is the best we could do and believe we have made the Twins a better team. Salary dump….salary dump….
Dan,
BC is working on his karma and inner peace. This deal is enough to drive insane men sane.
Can you give me a breakdown of that 46 million please? Not disputing it just would like to see the numbers.
Hey Jon … Wins are a poor indicator of a pitcher’s worth. Especially since wins on an offensively stacked Yankees’ team that also has a great closer are the easiest to come by. Having said that, I do agree that Wang has been a solid pitcher. But, he’s also been prone to arm problems and had a god-awful postseason. Fatigue? More arm problems? At any rate, I’m sure the Yankees could sure use someone more proven in the postseason like Santana. Yankee fans know this too. Wang has a postseason ERA of 7.58. That’s terrible.
good one roundabout. I am anxious to hear his take however.
Good luck….lol. later suckers i gotta go get ready for the 2008 season, unlike the twins i actually have a chance this year!!!
on one hand its hard to applaud this spike guy who says that he hopes Carl doenst live along enough to see his stadium
on the other hand, its hard not to share his frustration. Carl milks the public for a stadium, then dumps good players, when he himself is the richest owner in baseball by over a billion.
Normally I would not expect him to use his own money no matter how rich he is. But when this very rich geezer gets a stadium built for him off the back of the taxpayers, yes, he does owe that public something,
oops, I got caught
Hopefully, the Mets won’t be able to work out an extention and we will get Santana back. Then we can trade him to Boston for some good players.
Yankees watch as Santana goes to Mets
January
29 The Twins have agreed to trade Johan Santana to the Mets contingent on his agreeing to a contract extention. Minnesota would receive OF Carlos Gomez and RHPs Phil Humber, Deolis Guerra and Kevin Mulvey.
Santana reportedly pressured the Twins to make up their mind and GM Bill Smith gave teams until Tuesday to make their best offers. My understanding is that the Yankees made no offer at all. It’s unclear whether the Red Sox offered anything.
The Yankees wanted no part of signing Santana to an extension, which will cost at least $100 million and could go as high as $140 million.
This is not a trade that can be evaluated now because we have no idea how the prospects will pan out. But at first glance, Minnesota would have been better off with the packages offered by the Red Sox or Yankees back in December at the Winter Meetings.
Phil Hughes, Melky Cabrera, Jon Lester and Jacoby Ellsbury are MLB ready players.
This deal could determine whether Brian Cashman remains the GM of the Yankees. If Santana becomes the ace of the Mets and leads them into the World Series, Cashman will have a lot of explaining to do to Little Stein.
Me? I’m interested to see what Phil Hughes turns out to be. It would seem the Yankees are indeed serious about developing their own players.
UPDATE, 7:10 p.m.: Minnesota called the Yankees today, hoping to get some sort of offer. Brian Cashman didn’t budge.
Boston reportedly took Jon Lester off the table and was offering a package led by Jacoby Ellsbury and Jed Lowrie.
Note to Self:
Remember user name Beantown!!! if Red Sux don’t repeat;
Here’s the link to that Carlos Gomez (the former pitcher - not the OF prospect we just got) where he breaks down Phil Hughes more recent mechanics vs. what he had before.
Actually doesn’t have anything to do with the injury. It’s a mechanical change the Yankees had him make…
In three years, if Gomez and Guerra become superstars, this trade will look very different.
Metsfan
Don’t worry about the yankees, their farm system is loaded with pitching prospects, just ask keith law or Gammons. plus in a year or two I’d rather have:
Wang
Hughes
Joba
Kennedy
and all the other prospects like Alan horne, Dellin Betences, Humberto Sanches, Ross olenhdrf, Andrew brackman….etc. your system is now empty, you better hope santana works out.
Red Sox won’t repeat - at least not as world series champions… They might repeat like beans lol
Last time the Red Sox won it all they failed to make the playoffs the following year
And Boston Tom, No, I am not laughing at Twins fans. I am laughing at Red Sox and Yankee fans. Because I know deep down they wanted Santana as much as Mets fans did. And I also think posters such as you reek of sour grapes.
Spike:
How did Carl make his billion? Banking?
Made his money there too from the ticket buying public.
Metsfan
Don’t worry about the yankees, their farm system is loaded with pitching prospects, just ask keith law or Gammons. plus in a year or two I’d rather have:
Wang
Hughes
Joba
Kennedy
and all the other prospects like Alan horne, Dellin Betences, Humberto Sanches, Ross olenhdrf, Andrew brackman….etc. your system is now empty, you better hope santana works out.
Okay, serious question. Does anyone here think the Twins will be favorites to make the playoffs this year or next??
In three years, if Gomez and Guerra become superstars, I will buy season tickets and watch pigs fly.
Is contraction still an option?
I know I’m done being a Twins fan, just as I quit being a Wolves fan. Pathetic team! I hope they lose every game this year.
I ripped you guys off
I would rather have Chamberlain over santana for the next 10 years. I am happy that Cashman did not give up Hughes.
Bartolo Colon is available?? Heck ya he’d look great as a Twin. He’s one scary dominating monster when he’s on. Weight worries me some, but he appears comfortable with it. Guessin price tag would be pretty huge though.
just maybe this gomez kid will be just fine… if he can get the bat on the ball with any consistency and his speed he may be just fine…maybe and i know this is a reach, but sometimes a change of place, new teammates, and new coaches can make a difference and hopefully it will be all positive for gomez…hard not to get exicited about the young kid pitcher, but not this year and hopefully humber and mulvey can become solid additions…if that all happens then this trade will not be so bad after all…now what does b.s. do to improve this team..maybe couple nathan and humber/or mulvey and get something useful….otherwise this is what i see….
pridie cf/ gomez cf ??
harris 2b
mauer c
cuddyer rf
morneau 1b
young lf
kubel/monroe lf,cf,dh,rf
lamb 3b
everett ss
if gomez can get on base and that speed, then we have something special at the top …if not i think pridie will be just fine..and i like the rest of this lineup…i look for big years from monroe and kubel…i remember monroe tormenting the twins, when he was with the tigers…would love to see that again now…….wow…what an off season…..keep dealing billy…
these “maybes” dont cut it.
When you trade someone like Johan, you need at least one proven player as insurance, so even if the prospects dont make it, you dont come up empty handed.
THis is ridiculous to trade for not one proven players. That is the sad part of this deal. If they could not get the proven players, then ponyup and SIGN HIM
Metsfan,
I love Johan Santana and would have welcomed him.
But as a Yankee fan, I preferred keeping the young kids, watching guys like Phil Hughes, Melky Cabrera, and Ian Kennedy develop. And the Yanks will win in the process.
If I was you, I wouldn’t count that pennant just yet. You now have to play baseball.
Will the people that are telling us to stop freaking out please shut up. Why do you want to wait and see if these guys pan out, with santana we had a chance to win now isn’t that the idea? Why are we always seeming to make the deal for the future but not the deal that will actually let us win? oh yay we may be good by 2010 meanwhile let’s watch liriano tear it up and then who? scott baker?! kill me now i wish i was born in boston
What a joke!
would love to see bartolo colon…would show me that twins care about winning now…to hell with waiting for the new stadium…i want to be sitting on the edge of my seat in august and september watching twins games…not 14 -15 games out in july…come on bill ya got good start here, now just continue to plug a few winning pieces in here…..
LISTEN UP TWIN’S FANS:
At the trade deadline in July 1989, 2 years after Viola had led the Twins to a World Series in 1987, they traded him to the Mets for a number of top players, including Rick Aguilera, David West, and Kevin Tapani.
WE NEED TO BE STRONG TOGETHER!!!
now take these prospects and work on a package to get Bedard from Baltimore!
Jon … don’t worry, Santana is 100 times more proven than Hughes, Kennedy or Joba (as a starter). If you ask me, you don’t have anyone proven in your rotation this year who is viable except Wang and a besieged Pettitte. And Hughes, no matter how good a prospect he is, is just a prospect still. Someone who hasn’t done it in the majors yet. None of your prospects may ultimately pan out. Or only one may pan out. The Mets rotation with Santana is far more of a sure thing over the next few years than what the Yankees have. And I’m not worried about the future. Maine and Perez are young, we still have Pelfrey, and the Mets have 3 first-round picks in June. I like out chances better than yours to make the playoffs and go far the next few years.
The Twins have now solidified themselves as the leading farm club in all of basebal … simply readying the talent to go play baseball for a major league contender. This deal stinks! Getting four prospects that won’t contribute to the team for years down the road (if ever!) is a tragedy, especially with so much talent to build a championship around (Mauer, Morneau, and Liriano). This COULD have been another special year (like ‘87 or ‘91), but now its just gonna be Twins-business as usual … management letting the fans down again.
Craig has been blocked.
I miss him.
He would’ve loved this.
Given the Twins will not compete in 08 or 09, a prospect driven deal was great. That being said, BS should have gotten more than 2 prospects with high ceilings. Gomez is supposed to have a higher ceiling than FMart. He also has a much lower floor. F Mart can hit. Gomez, despite his tools, has never hit. Humber, Mulvey, blah… Guerra. High Ceiling, Years away. I hate the Mets. I hate the Red Sox (well just their fans).
If you are going to trade for prospects get the most high ceiling guys that you can.
I wish that Smith had not stalled so long. I believe given the nature of the offers at the Winter Meetings (Sox. Yanks) that the Mets would have included Martinez + Gomez + Guerra +. BS waited and the market dried up.
The only problem with the trade for the Twins is you don’t know what you got and won’t for a couple of years.
And in 2-3 years, you might be smiling and have a dynamite pitching staff and an all-star caliber centerfielder.
The Mets will be chugging along needing two corner outfielders, learning if Martinez is the real deal.
So, time will tell.. Have faith.
Like Bruce crooned in Thunder Road:
So you’re scared and you’re thinking
That maybe we ain’t that young anymore
Show a little faith there’s magic in the night
You ain’t a beauty but hey you’re alright
Oh and that’s alright with me
To all the folks who said “you’re not a scout, trust the Twins system, etc etc” - many professional analysts have said this is the 4th best deal offered to Twins.
Essentially, Gomez is a fine player and he was the #2 prospect from Mets. Humbe is 25 and has a losing record in minors and most scouts do not expect him to be more than a #3 pitchers (at his absolute highest ceiling)…meaning he’ll likely be 5th starter. Guerra/Hulvey are extremley raw and while they have talent, they’re huge question marks.
Twins overplayed their hand and JS pushed a trade. This is bad for Twins but better than if they had waited longer and JS refused any trade.
Hey it was honest mistake - Smith over estimated the market (it happens all the time). Just stinks it happend now.
Mulletman,
To watch pigs fly, just carry a mirror on the airplane.
I keep reading opinions that Johan is greedy for not accepting the twins offer of 4/80. Aren’t the Twins greedier for taking in all that revenue sharing money then not putting it into their team plus fleece the MN taxpayers into paying for a new ballpark on top of that?
we really didn’t have a chance to “win now” with Johan … he just would’ve lost 3-2, 2-1 and 4-3 like he did last year … it was time to re-load for 2010 and beyond …
if the Mets ink Santana to a long term deal, let’s see what happens when he pitches in there new stadium…
roundabout: The Yanks will win in the process? What? 1 game in the first round of the playoffs? Is that all for the $200+ million payroll you have? And will they even win that this year? I wouldn’t count even the getting into the playoffs with an unproven Hughes and Kenneday and a washed up Mussina. In fact, you guys don’t have an ace.
I think too many of Pohlad’s relatives are posting here. They are giddy that Pohlad just dumped a large salary. They must have thought Carl was losing it when signing Morneau, but rest assured their inheritance is safe. Carl made good to his family.
This was a terrible trade for the Twins… the only benefit is that he is going to the National League, but in terms of player return, this was by far the worst offer we got. I hate the Yankees, and wouldn’t have wanted to see Santana with them, but their offer of Hughes and Melky Cabrera was a better offer. Cabrera is a better hitter than Gomez and Hughes is a better pitcher than any of the 3 we got. Bill Smith should be fired for holding out for this deal? I would’ve rolled the dice and seen what happened. So he walked after next season? We still get two first round picks as compensation, and those unknown picks are as likely to reach the majors and be successful as the guys we got. Terrible, stupid, and I can see the Pohlad’s are putting the projected stadium revenue to good use.
i can almost guarantee you the mets will be cussing themselves out down the road for the unbelievable contract they are going to be hung with…santana will be pitching under so much pressure and scrutiny, he will cry at nite, thinking back to the good ole days in minny, kickin back with silva, nathan and the boys….i wish him luck but i think in the end we will be better off….and he will realize that money isnt always the best thing….80 million in minny..hell i would take that and smile alot..wouldnt here me complain…
Can’t compare this trade with the AJ Pierzinski trade at all. Santana was a dominant pitcher, two Cy Youngs, etc. Pierzinski’s claim to fame was his attitude and ability to foul off ball after ball. AJ’s 18 homers, 82 RBIs per year just don’t compare to Santana’s numbers.
This trade as a bad one. It amounts to a bunch of guys whose future is getting cut. The Twins seem to always be building for the future, never for the present.
Well, at the very least, we can always look at the stadium we’re giving to the Pohlads. Glad they decided to return the favor by burying our team for the next 5 years.
Does this mean that the Twins go ahead and trade Joe Nathan now? I say do it and try to get a stud 3B prospect in return.
We’re not telling you not to freak out. We’re telling you to get more information and THEN decide whether to freak out.
Right now, most of the people freaking out don’t know Carlos Gomez from Prince Charles. They just believe whatever Peter Gammons says about the deal. I like Peter Gammons, but he doesn’t even know who Deolis Guerra is… that should tell you something.
This is the internet, information is at your fingertips. Take a few minutes and look up some of these guys. You might just find that you’re freaking out for nothing.
Roundabout,
The Red Sox didn’t fail to make the playoffs in 2005. It was 2006. I don’t know why you are laughing about them not making the playoffs since your team since 2004 are out in the first round. At least the red sox won 2 world series in the past four years unlike your team didn’t win anything in the past 7 years.
Metsfan
thats your opinion… as far as I’m concerned our prospects are as good as there is in baseball! the yankees won with them last year and they can only get better from here on. the yankees will always have the resources to get help so if they are struggling they will go out and get someone. as far as the mets are concerned, pedro is old and no longer a given to win or stay healthy, el,duque is older and he is no longer a good pitcher, perez is a head case and maine is a solid #4 pitcher. Pelfrey is a head case and he stunk it up last year.
Santana wasn’t going to take our offer, so the longer we sat on him the worse deals would have been
Mets fan,
How well did the Mets fair in the playoffs last year?
I love it. Mets fans all of a sudden are cocky again. Last September and October, they were crying, whining and couldn’t look a fellow baseball fan in the eye. They were embarassed to call themselves Mets fan, calling for Randolph’s head.
Today, they think their team is world-beaters. All of a sudden, Ollie Perez is consistent and John Maine is the second coming of Johan Santana and Pedro has the foundatin of youth in his right arm.
And the Yankee prospects Hughes, Chamberlain and Kennedy may not be what the Yankees think..
We shall see come September and October who the true Metsfans are.. if the Mets fail, they will run and hide again.
Sane, I am sure you are a voice of experience. Too bad you will have to suffer through another season(s) of a losing Twins team.
chief_joe — Why are you questioning Santana in the Mets’ new stadium? It’s supposed to be a pitchers’ park, just like Shea is. The only thing is it is supposed to have a shorter right field porch. But that shouldn’t be a concern for lefthanders.
i have a question…how does one determine that a guy has high power potential when he hits about 2 home runs PER YEAR?
Metsfan
your team had the third highest payroll in baseball and you couldn’t even make the playoffs!!
I have a few questions any of you can answer them if you feel you have the answer.
1. What is Bill Smith smoking?
2.Why would we trade the games best pitcher for a young center fielder when we just drafted one last summer.
3. Why were we so dead set on getting some of these young pitchers when we already have young guys like Swarzack, Slowey and Blackburn.
4.Does Bill Smith realize how many outfielders we are possibly going to have on the opening day roster(Cuddyer, Young, Kubel, Monroe, Gomez and possibly Pridie, Span that’s seven right there)?
5. How old is Carl Pohlad and is it possible that he will outgrow his penny pinching phase or are the Twins doomed to lose every good player once their contract has one more year on it?
6. And finally if the answer to question 1 is nothing than what is in the water in Minneapolis?
Metsfan, just a thought that it is a new stadium for all players in general. Santana is oviously used to other parksthat are around. Not saying he’ll suck there.
How can we get a stud 3rd baseman for Nathan if we can only get PROSPECTS for Santana. I repeat…POHLAD WILL NOT ADD ADDITIONAL SALARY THIS YEAR. Don’t you hear the birdie going cheep cheep.
I’m sorry roundabout but I had to repost this, great stuff!
Mets fan,
How well did the Mets fair in the playoffs last year?
I love it. Mets fans all of a sudden are cocky again. Last September and October, they were crying, whining and couldn’t look a fellow baseball fan in the eye. They were embarassed to call themselves Mets fan, calling for Randolph’s head.
Today, they think their team is world-beaters. All of a sudden, Ollie Perez is consistent and John Maine is the second coming of Johan Santana and Pedro has the foundatin of youth in his right arm.
And the Yankee prospects Hughes, Chamberlain and Kennedy may not be what the Yankees think..
We shall see come September and October who the true Metsfans are.. if the Mets fail, they will run and hide again.
MJ1, I’m with you. And supposedly the Twins offered 5/100 within the last day or so and Johan said no. I heard that on the radio, so I don’t know if it’s for sure. Johan wanted to go, and that means FO can only do so much. Agreed that BS waited too long, but I still think he’ll make some more moves before opening day. Just a gut feeling now that the Johan deal is done.
Merck, you have no way of knowing the future of these 4 prospects. Remember, Rick Agulera and Kevin Tapani were throw ins so the Twins could acquire David West. West fizzled, but the other two did great things for the Twins.
Why is it Minnesota always gets the Shiv in trades.
AJ for Nathan, Bonser, Liriano (steal)
Bowyer for Castillo (advantage)
Garza/Bartlett for Young/Harris (even)
Knoblauch for half the Yankees
Kielty for Stewart…
And that’s just the Twins.
This almost feels like the Kevin Garnett trade. Althought at least with Garnett, we got players that actually are on the Wolves roster. But I think the outcome will mirror the 2 teams. NY Mets will finish 1st, and the Minnesota Twins will finish last. And Twins management will say they are “rebuilding”. Of course they will continue to say that for the next few years to justify their lousy record and not acquiring real talent.
It amuses me no end to read all the comments saying “horrible trade”. Back at the winter meetings EVERYONE was saying, “please Bill Smith, don’t take those offers; if you play it tough the Yankees will add Kennedy and the Red Sox will combine Lester and Ellsbury”. I knew everyone was underestimating the impact of the 7 year contract. But Smith did what everyone wanted, and this is what happened. I’m sure no one will come forward and admit they were demanding that Smith play it tough to get the “much better offers”.
All I can say is LET’s GO GIANTS!!! An here is the hope that it is the Mets vs. Detroit in the WS. Enough Boston/NE BS for a lifetime.
The Twins shouldn’t and couldn’t pay Johan for 7 years at 20M. It really makes no sense to do so. Hopefully they can use the extra Pitching prospects to finally get some bats.
Go GIANTS!!!
Casey…answer to your #4 ?
Look at those names…thats why we have so many outfielders, we hope to get 2 good ones out of that list. Monroe could rebound, he had a great 2006.
Kubel is shot already Pridie aint livin up to the hopes, he is fast and thats it.
BeardedTree: You can project based on a combination of bat speed, line drive percentage and so on. You also adjust for the minor league parks they’ve hit in (some of them are freaking pastures and others are shoeboxes).
These things tend to be pretty good means on which to project future power. They aren’t 100%, but they have a high correlation.
ok guys,
im sorry but you cant get mad at bill smith.. if anything get mad at TR for getting bill smith in this situation.. bill smith tryed the best he could and you know what? we dont know what the “real” offers were by the yankees or red soxs so you cant say their better… i thought this was a pretty decent haul by the twins.. and a twins scout (who worked at the mets organization before he just came here) said that these are extremly good prospects and they could all become very good… gomez has an amazingly high ceiling and you know what? alost all of the hitters who come out of the minors have trouble hitting breaking balls… he got rushed to the majors and hit a .280 in AAA at 22… give him a chance… guerra is an amazing prospect and will be listed next to robertson to start in either late 09 or the start of 2010.. mulvey is in AAA and could be amazing… maybe even a #2 pitcher eventually… (like 4th or 5th or maybe even bullpen cause our farm is loaded with great pitchers…) humber needs a change in scenery… he has not been very great in the minors and not great in the majors.. but has a great curveball i believe and if he changes scenery and anderson works with him on control with his pitches he could be great. stop saying we got a bad offer cause it really wasnt.. yes i know i would have wanted fernando martinez or pelfrey but it seems like they dont wanna give up their 9th overall pick just cause he had one bad year cause he could be their future ace.. and they didnt want to give up their number one prospect.(which he may not be the number one prospect in their farm.. hard to say.. gomez and guerra would have been close..) i take this as a very well done job given bill smiths situation.. TR looked like he didnt want his reputation taken away so he gave the bad stuff to BS cause TR made a big mistake….. we all know this.. but its sad that some people like to blame BS for it.. he did a fantastic job. and a pretty good haul too..
Twins fans,
My condolences. Ouch. That has to sting. You got fleeced.
Santana is a once in a lifetime talent entering the prime of his career.
You just traded him for four decent prospects. Prospects who might become MLB stars, but odds are against it. Maybe you can still root for the Mets to be unable to sign him.
Twins fans, your friends will be making fun of you for years to come. Mentally prepare now.
Red Sox fans everywhere really, really, really thank you for trading Santana to the NL.
And for not taking Ellsbury, Lester or Bucholtz from us. Remember the names because you will be facing them soon. I love winning with homegrown talent. And we like to sign our young stars to long term deals.
I am more than OK with this trade. Yanks didn’t get Santana. (Have you seen the Yankees bullpen?) I hope we won’t see Santana again except for the AllStar game.
I have to mention one more time: YOU JUST TRADED A ONCE IN A LIFETIME PITCHER FOR 4 PROSPECTS!!!!
I like the Red Sox chances to repeat.
roundabout — obviously the Mets did not make the playoffs. But look what the Yankees did. They won one lousy game in the first round before being unceremoniously booted by midges and the Indians. And they spent $100 million more in payroll than the Mets did. Was that a good return on your added $100 million investment? 1 playoff game? You tell me.
As for me, I’ve always been proud to be a Mets fan. I’ve never run and hid. And I’ve even posted here before, about a month ago, you dolt. Even after the collapse in September, it was not that big a deal. The NLCS loss to the Cardinals the year before was much more painful.
I would think the 2004 collapse to the Red Sox is the ultimate disgrace and embarrassment. Do you still walk around with a paper bag on your head?
Casey, I think Bill Smith got what he could even though he waited a little too long. He took a gamble and it backfired, but not completely! Overall, I have been impressed with his leadership decisions. Johan wanted out, so it limited his leverage with other teams. The log jam of outfielders and pitching prospects could mean another deal or two are possible. Finally, until Carl sells the team and/or MLB gets a salary cap it will be challenge for BS. But, it can be done so lets see how he does.
Why shouldn’t we be freaking out a little? They just traded the one guy that can help keep the Twins in contention for four guys who have not exactly been stellar in their professional careers. Being a top prospect in the Mets organization is not exactly something to cheer about.
As far as waiting to see how these guys pan out, why should we? We’re fans. We hate rebuilding years.
Maybe we should trade Nathan, Mauer and Morneau for some more top prospects.
Well, the deal’s over and done with. I guess we can all get ready for several years of 65 win purgatory.
we also can ship some of our pitchers and outfielders.. (revere or gomez whichever one is worse in 2010..) for someone good. thats what we did for garza.. dont think we will have needs in 2010? also a lot of our pitching prospects may become great bullpen guys..
The 08′ Twins Motto–
Get to know em’ before we get rid of em’
It has become an all-too common feeling to me that it’s round about December 23rd and the Twins execs have taken away Christmas AGAIN. Just as Humber, Mulvey, Slowey, Dopey and Sneezy are about to blow the roof off the place
(heh. heh-heh) we will trade them too.
At least when that stadium is old and shabby and all the seats are empty, I won’t have to climb too many steps with my walker to sit down and watch another crop of prospects play baseball.
johan couldn’t keep us in contention alone … see 2007 for proof …
Wow. I was listening to KFAN on the way home from the office. Lots of people are about ready to jump off the bridge. Sure, it looks bad right now. And sure, it’s a money thing for Carl and Co. But there’s also a chance that one or two of these guys could contribute to a winning team down the road. Just not this year. I too wonder what they are going to do with all their outfielders. And where does this leave Denard Span. Will he be moved? Doesnt make a lot of sense to keep him and Gomez. Maybe those two are now in competition. The winner stays, the loser goes to Tampa Bay. Or Pittsburgh. Or Kansas City. I mean, come on Twins fans, we might be down, but we are not that down. And by the way….we never had to mourn a team losing a 7 game lead in the last week of the season. Let’s face it. Johan will have to win 20 for the $$ and players lost before it makes sense for the Mets. Let’s check back in October and see how this pans out for all parties concerned.
I can believe people still support the twins. You the taxpayer is paying to fund the new stadium and they go ahead and trade their best player. When that stadium opens you will need to purchase a program to figure out who is on the team. It looks like they will continue to develop young talent and trade them away. New stadium…. same old organization…
Metsfan
Don’t start comparing the yankees history to the mets history if they have one??
I’d rather lose in game 7 of the Alcs than CHoke and not make the playoffs at all, and than have my entire fan base jumping ship.
As a Boston fan, I am disappointed that we will not see a rotation of Santana-Beckett-DiceK-Schilling-Bucholtz/Wakefield
4 prospects is a gamble yes, i wonder if they lobbied for a Santana and Kubel for Gomez and Maine deal! WHOA!
And you think these four players will help us stay in contention? At least Santana was stabilizing force every fifth day.
The ‘08 Twins Motto—
Trading Great Players in 2008 So We Can Get Rid of the New Mediocre Ones in 2009
Is it too late to trade the prospects for some prospects?
I want my tax money back.
Here’s what Seth Stohs said on “Sethspeaks.net” about three weeks ago:
“If the Mets would offer Carlos Gomez, Mike Pelfrey OR Philip Humber, Kevin Mulvey and one other prospect, I think that the Twins would have to consider it. If that prospect was Deolis Guerra, they would be silly to say no.”
Wow, did Seth hit that nail on the head! And that’s EXACTLY what we got. To all you freaking out people who use no logic of argument but just sputter and say “horrible trade”, Seth follows prospects very closely, and is very well respected. For some reason I think I’ll take his word over that of people who know NOTHING about prospects.
Nick, I will not need a program to know whose playing for the Twins in 2010. For the record, they signed Mauer last yr and Morneau and Cuddyer last week. I firmly believe that BS will do the same with Delmon Young and others in the future. It’s a gamble, but a calculated gamble. I do not think it is the same old organization, but it would improve even more if Carl would sell the team. Let’s just see how BS does, and I think the Twins will be better than most think this year. Probably not in the playoffs, but I don’t think being a 500 team is out of the question. I can live with that if the team shows improvement for the future.
It always amazes me how “fans” come out of the woodwork to bas their team when they think that they have made a bad deal. Is this a “great” deal for the Twins? Guess we won’t really know how good of a deal it is for a year or two. Will the Twins and their fans miss Santana? Sure will, but keep in mind, in this business, you’re only as good as wat you’ve done for me today…not yesterday. One injury can change a career forever. And Beantown….Take your ass back to the drive-up window and wait on the next car. You are one of the most obnoxious people that I have ever had the displeasure of reading. What’s wrong…get kicked off the Boston blog sites?!
thank you dennis.. exactly what i said….
Jon, sorry but your team’s recent history is pretty shoddy considering the number of PEDs abusers on it. And I have news for you. The Mets were in the league championship series as recently as 2006. The Yankees haven’t sniffed that for years. So, try again. If you can’t even make it past the first round, getting to the playoffs is almost inconsequential.
Your team’s 2004 choke job was still the biggest in the history of baseball, and all the more galling considering the amount of money they spent on that team.
baseball is always about trading a guy you cant keep for a roll of the dice on young guys…thats the name of the game
As a Boston fan, I am very excited to see Bucholtz, LEster and Ellsbury still be wearing a Sox uniform.
Santana would have been icing on the cake. We didn’t NEED him, but we certainly would have taken him.
Our farm system has been revived in the last 6-8 years and is now ranked #2 in baseball. John Henry and Theo Epstein have created an excellent organization for years to come. It is a privilege to have them own and run the Red Sox. I trust their ability to make the team competitive every year. Theo was quoted saying his idea is to make the playoffs 7 of every 10 seasons. I like how he thinks.
Here’s Seth’s comment today about Humber:
Phil Humber? He was the #3 pitcher taken in the 2004 draft. He’s got a lot of skill, and after Tommy John surgery, he had a solid, but unspectacular, season at AAA New Orleans in 2007. I think he could just get stronger and potentially be a #2 pitcher at best. He should be a solid #3 though, already in 2008.
Instead of Gomez/Guerra/Pelfrey/Church,
we got: Gomez/Guerra/Mulvey/Humber
Not much worse, especially if Pelfrey is a head case like some scouts say.
Did the Twins get screwed? Probably! Will we be the worst in the division? Absolutely not! I don’t know how the mentally challenged from Cleveland, Detroit, Chicago, Boston, and NY can say that KC will be better then us. I’m glad we got rid of that disease. No one deserves $150 million. I hope he blows his arm out signing that contract. To all of the east coast donks that have been sounding off, I rather cheer for a team that earns championships rather then buying them.
exactly chief joe. especially without a salary cap. Carl is still cheap, but BS will have to do the best he can and use the formula you described to try and field a winner.
Here’s Seth on Guerra:
Deolis Guerra? If Fernando Martinez wasn’t available (and he obviously wasn’t), the Twins had to get Guerra. He is another very young guy who at age 18 last year was pitching adequately in the Florida State League. I don’t know why the Mets rushed him, and I hope that the Twins send him to Ft. Myers to at least start the season, but when it comes to potential, Guerra could be a very good #2, maybe better. But he is (and should be) two years away, AT LEAST.
werbellik - you “can live with that if the team shows improvement”?
how mighty white of you not to expect anymore when everyday more of my check gets siphoned off for carl’s new toy that he refuses to write the thank you card for.
this is bush league.
as in george.
as in as smart as.
Can vote on trade here.
http://mlbfleecefactor.com/2008/01/29/vote-on-the-johan-santana-trade/
Sane - Glad you’re here! I’ve been needing your help!! 
TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN:
Fans of wealthy, arrogant, east coast teams could, if you please, go to the Globe or Times blogs so we don’t have to waste blog space and time reading it.
Thank you.
getting Church would have been nice, i would have thrown in Kubel to get Church
Where’s BC Beneke when we need him? My question to him is, How will the Twins fit all four prospects onto roster? ALL of my posts have stated the Twins woukd trade to NL, most likely the Mets. Any trade in AL was unlikely. Historically, the Twins will trade to NL whenever possible. Why is everyone so negative? We got 4 of the Met’s top 7 prospects. We had almost no leverage. This is MUCH better than 2 draft picks. I trust the Twin’s scouts to pick out GOOD prospects. ALL four of these players are more advanced than 2 high school players the Twins would have picked NEXT year.If they are going to succeed at MLB level, they should be there about the same time as the new ballpark. Twin’s should trade for someone like Ian Stewart or or other highly rated 3rd base prospect (for Nathan?). Install that guy at 3rd, Pluffe or Casilla at SS, Gomez in Cf in 2009, let them grow together & see if this young wave of talent can grow into something special. We did not even get to a World Series with Johan & he did not want to stay here. How much money does anyone need? 4 years at 20 million each, not enough? What an ego! If Gomez makes it in CF, Twins will have the best set of outfield arms in the majors. You are fooling yourself if you think a mid-market team like the Twins can compete EVERY year. Let’s all take a breath & see how this turns out. IMO, “Trader Bill”, is not done yet. This has been a very entertaining off season to be a Twin’s fan & isn’t that what this is all about?
how far over budget are the pohlads on THIER new stadium?
I completely agree with you Phil Lose with respect to tax dollars for stadiums, which I am against, and the fact that we have cheap owner who puts a business model ahead of winning. But the reality is that its been that way for quite awhile so we as fans try to deal with it. I do expect the Twins to be competitive, and they have been in recent years prior to 2007. However, I also realize that there are times when organizations need to retool or rebuild. That’s where the Twins are at. Reality man.
Test post.
If the Twins are happy with not being the worst in their division, great.
I prefer to see the World Series in Denver last October, the Superbowl in Phoenix next week and the NBA championship in Boston next June. The best part is my team is there too.
Kevin Garnett and David Ortiz say hi.
Would Marian Gaborik like to join the Bruins? They could use his help.
I’m not a huge baseball rube, but I cannot believe that one of the best pitchers in MLB isn’t even worth another team’s top prospect. East coast teams suck.
Cy Young Trades To Mets:
Santana=Gomez/Guerra/Mulvey/Humber
Viola=Agullira/Tapani/West
Coming off a stellar 2007 with .231 avg & .592 ops…
The starting CF for the Twins…
In 2008 dominican winterball…
107 ab
.262 avg
4 2b
0 3b
1 hr
6 rbi
10 sb
6 cs
.331 obp
.327 slg
.658 ops
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA
THANK YOU SUCKERS!!!!
Bill Smith for president
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA
Dennis,
Neither of us is responsible for healing the chronically stupid.
Let them all jump off their ledges tonight and we can clean up the mess later.
Are you kidding me? The best pitcher in baseball for those 4 prospects??? All of this time and all the talk about who the Twins might get and they give away the best pitcher in baseball for 4 prospects. Way to go. Let’s see, Tori Hunter is gone, but we got a guy who throws bats at umpires, and now Santana is gone, but we got a defensive Center Fielder and a base stealer and 3 long shots…now the air is completely out of the balloon. What a huge disappointment. Are they hoping to drive away fans FROM the ballpark?
werbellik,
you have drank the koolaid for so long you recite the twinsfan mantra in your sleep: “this is a rebuilding year…always has been…always will be…zzz”
And why wouldn’t it be a rebuilding year 1 year removed from having an MVP, CY Young, and Batting Champ and a great bullpen?
Yeah, nothing says time to rebuild like that.
Unless of course the Carlaid is running down your chin.
kenny rogers = good chicken
you can only rely on that if we get a title in the next couple 3 years
Metsfan
the yankees make the playoffs every year, while the mets have made it twice in the last 8 years!! just stop your sounding like an idiot.
BONES:
I am a huge baseball rube. He is the best pitcher in baseball.
Phil - I’m guessing you haven’t been reading these blogs over the past couple of weeks, and I’m sure that’s true of others. There are a couple of things you need to understand. I’m not trying to be a know-it-all, but these are facts, not opinions:
1. The Twins devote 50-55% of revenue to salaries. They’ve done that for several years, and that puts them in the upper half of MLB. Jim Pohlad just reiterated that commitment Saturday.
2. As revenues go up as a result of the stadium the salaries will go up. There is no reason to doubt that, and the Pohlads have verified that several times.
Those two things are facts. Now two opinions:
1. No pitcher is worth $140-160M. Johan turned down $100M for five years, which was a superb offer.
2. I am totally confident that Bill Smith has a long range plan, and trading Johan is a big part of that. He will take the savings from Johan and use it for free agents. He has total authorization to spend anything within the 50-55% guideline. AND HE WILL.
La Velle,
We all knew we were not going to be able to keep him. I believe the Twins did the best they could under the circumstances. Every city can not have a George to fund teams that do not always make it.
God Bless Minnesota!!
Have a good spring training.
Sorry to miss you this year in FT. Myers.
Lead them on to victory!!!
Al B. minus 75 pounds.
A Truly Great accomplishment and more to come!!
Lee
is there a worse starting staff out there for 08 less FL
Anyone got a breakdown on twins salary for 08?
Thus far…less than the 2007 payroll
I am not a happy Twins fan. As someone already posted, Santana is a once in a lifetime pitcher. And we let him get away.
Pohlad just traded him for 4 Mets prospects. But not their number one prospect. Are you kidding me?
At least with the Yankees or Red Sox deals, we would have gotten some MLB-ready players.
So very disappointing.
No koolaid here Phil. You must have missed my comments about how the Twins have been very competitive in recent years prior to 2007. Made the playoffs and everything. Fortunately we still have 2 of the 3 award winners you mentioned on the team, and I look for big things in the future. So, let me try one more time. I realize that given our ownership and the lack of a salary cap, we may need to retool occasionally. That’s where we’re at right now. I think 2008 will be o.k, but I am really looking forward to 2009 and beyond. I hope that’s more clear.
Right on Merck. Some Twins fans are such homers that they could find a reason to give their first born to Pohlad. Reality is it saves money for Pohlad. Anyone thinking the Twins now just became a better team in 2008 or 2009 is jaded and beyond being a homer. We have 4 prospects, and odds are very good they will be at best middle of the road even if they make the Twins roster. Reality is Pohlad dumped salary, and will now officially call this a rebuilding year to justify what is going to be a cellar dwelling team. But many of you can blow sunshine up yourself and dream about rainbows, unicorns and lollipops tonight, while Mets fans will go to bed dreaming about a pennant. Sweet Dreams
Another thing the casual observer doesn’t understand is the economic impact. You want to exclude it, but you simply can’t if you’re going to understand the situation.
Look at it this way. If Santana were signed for 7 years at $3M per year you would get astronomical offers for him. Far more than his actual baseball worth. If he were signed for 7 years at $50M per year you literally couldn’t give him away. So 7 years for $140-160M is between those two, and makes his trade value far less than his raw baseball value.
As Keith Law of ESPN said, that’s just elementary economics. You can’t simply ignore that fact.
Amen Dennis, and thanks for the help with Phil.
So let me get this straight…
Oakland & Baltimore didnt like what the Mets were pushing.
AND WE TRADE THE BEST PITCHER IN BASEBALL FOR THIS SAME CRAP!
Way to go Bill Smith, you are a real razzle-dazzle dealer. You started “negotiating” at the Winter Meetings and sealed the deal today.
You had the best pitcher in baseball and this is the best you could do? Pathetic.
I know, the Twins are “re-building”…the Twins, the Wolves, the Gophers, all re-building. It’s getting more than a little bit stale.
Mets fans are whooping it up. National sports talk shows are laughing at the deal the Twins got.
could this possibly be the end of span in the twins org…god i can only hope. to me, he is the worst and im so glad we have someone other than him to think about…b.s. please include span in any trade package you have, he will look good anywhere but the twin cities…im 50/50 on nathan…hard to figure there….i guess if we could come up with a true ace pitcher i would say go, other than that, if we got a good bat where do you put him…i think our team is pretty well set offensively, we just need to put this staff together and decide who the closer will be…interesting stuff and spring training should be most interesting….
It seems like Beantown is a little full of himself. Yes, the Red Sox look good
for the next year or two, but Manny & Papi are aging. Lowell will never come close to last year. Buchholz and Lester
look good, but the sample size for projecting them with any certainty is sooo small. Ellsbury’s value will never be higher. Could they be headed for a fall in a year or two? We’ll see.
Mulletman - I respect everyone’s opinion if it’s based on something logical. You can’t just say that people who disagree with you are “homers”. I laid out in detail the economics, which you can’t ignore just because you want to be negative. If you have contrary views about these matters I’d be interested in hearing them. But so far nothing you’ve said has any basis behind it other than you’re not happy with it.
This seems to be a done deal. To predict the future, look at the past. This is all we can hope for:
Cy Young Trades To Mets:
Santana=Gomez/Guerra/Mulvey/Humber
Viola=Aguilera/Tapani/West
Jon, as I said, the Mets made the league championship series in 2006, while the Yankees haven’t sniffed that since their disastrous collapse in 2004. This despite spending a billion dollars in payroll the last five years. Moreover, since the release of the Mitchell report, even your team’s measly playoff appearances are suspect.
When you mention idiots, sounds to me like you should be looking in a mirror.
Mulletman, I feel your pain, but I’m confused. Do you really care about the Twins and are just frustrated, or do you not care about the Twins. If its the latter, why do you spend time posting here?
Since the Twins still need a stopgap CF, here is my prediction.
Bill Smith will turn around and trade Carlos Gomez to Boston for Coco Crisp.
KILLER-BREW:
You left out one–Vikings (rebuilding)
Werbellik - Like I said, my opinions aren’t worth more than those of anyone else here. But they’re based on knowledge and logic.
For example, “I hope I’m dreaming” thinks the Twins should get much more for Santana than Oakland and Baltimore get for Haren and Bedard. No, they should get less. Not because Santana isn’t a better pitcher, but because Haren and Bedard are signed for three and two years, respectively, at very low salaries. Meanwhile, Santana will require a commitment of $140-160M. Those are the facts. And as a result Santana is worth less in trade.
Kenny….My bad!
MetsFan
Your team didn’t make the playoffs. Period!!
So in your way of thinking, choking is better than making the playoffs and losing in the first round.
*Pukes*
This deal makes me sick…We couldn’t even get the Mets best prospect!?
*pukes again*
this is horrible
Killer-Brew - I suspect that if you were posting here a month ago you would have warned Smith not to take the trades on the table at the time because they would get better. The Yankees would add Kennedy, and the Red Sox would combine Lester and Ellsbury. EVERYONE hear was saying that. “Bill, I know you’re new, don’t be a sucker. Hang tough.”
He misplayed that situation, but everyone, including many of the “smart guys” online, said the same thing. Meanwhile, Keith Law was saying he wouldn’t trade FMart for Santana EVEN UP. Not because FMart is supernatural, but because the need to sign Johan for such a huge contract takes away his trade value.
KILLER:
I know–stress. Read my 8:37.
“It’s all I got.” *
Richard Gere in An Officer And A Gentlemen
MetsFan,
How did your team do from 2001-2005 and 2007? Good you lost in the championship series in 2006..your only taste of success since 2000.. LOL
Werbellik, I AM a frustrated fan. I like others are sick of rebuilding. How long is the team going to be in “rebuilding” phase. I am not getting any younger. Do you or anyone else thing we have a reasonable shot at winning a pennant this year??? How about next year…or the year after? With the central being highly competitive, the Twins are not stepping up and making the deals necessary to win now. They sent their 2nd best attraction (Hunter being #1) and received what if, might help in future years prospects. Sorry Dennis, I will send you a lollipoop.
Twinsfansaresad - Please show that you have a brain and make a point. Explain why it is so horrible. Explain why my earlier points are wrong. “This is horrible” means nothing.
Dennis, exactly right. If people want to rip on TR for not extending or trading Johan ya ear ago, I think that has merit. But we were not going to get a kings ransom for Johan now when the contract demands were hi and Johan wanted out. That’s life.
Metsfan,
your clubhouse guy was one of the main dealers of Performance Enhancing Drugs… and your catcher was a big dealer, too.
Hmmmm interesting, you boast of losing being better than making the playoffs. and you raise the issue of steroids when your clubhouse was the scene of a major dealer. How brilliant, you are. lol
Peter Gammon’s said on ESPN that the 4 players the Twins will receive from the Mets would not crack the top ten prospect list on either the Yankees or the Red Sox. The Twins held out all this time to get hosed.
So where does Nathan go now? To Cubs for Pie?
I’m just really upset about the trade
Which is why management has made way too many errors. We procrastinated on both Hunter and Santana and he no help in the immediate future, and a big WHAT IF for future years. Not exactly how a well run team let’s its top talent go.
Mulletman - You aren’t addressing my points. I’m assuming that’s because you don’t have a logical answer, and would rather just vent.
I honestly believe the Twins will be competing for it all by 2010, if not 2009. That’s based on what I see Bill Smith building, and on the Twins’ commitment to 50-55% of revenue for salary. Smith is signing his desired players long term, and piece by piece is building his team. He’ll also spend the saved money on other players, especially next year. The Twins are committed to spending that money. You don’t have to believe me, but seriously, you watch over the next year.
These are the moments the internet was invented for…thank you Al Gore.
Hyperbole, know it all pronounciations, doom and gloom, pie in the sky optimism, anger and hate, true blue fan dom.
I love reading this high comedy. It is great! Keep it coming.
Think what we would have missed if the Twins had been contracted.
P.S. You Bostonians watch out for KG. He is a great player, but he has a lot of miles on him and what you have seen the last few games may become more common. KG leaves it all out there on the floor and has for years, so you will see a breaking down of him sooner rather then later.
I will same the same thing to you as I will to Mets fans. Buyer Beware.
6 or 7 years is a lot of innings on a pitchers arm. Even one as great as Johan,
Dennis,
My problem with this deal is all the high expectations the Twins front office was promoting with this impending deal. All the names being paraded through the talks…like all the Twins had to do was sit back and pick through the great offers at the Santana Auction. You or I weren’t in place to hear all the offers when they came in…we get to sit back and hear it all filtered through the press. Now that it is over, I am speaking honestly that this deal is a dud. Mets fans are excited and most Twins fans are disappointed. That’s the facts Jack.
Mulletman - Now I agree with you!!! They made HUGE errors with Santana and Hunter, and could have signed both a year or two ago. But that was Terry Ryan. If he were still running the team I’d share your pain. But Bill Smith is showing me he’s a VERY different GM. He is willing to do what he has to, and I firmly believe he has a specific plan. Like I said, you just watch!
Mulletman, I stated my predictions for the Twins next couple of years in my earlier post, but I could certainly be wrong. You never know how things will play out within the division. Obviously right now we’re looking up at the Tiger and Indians for sure. But injuries or other factors can impact things in ways we don’t see right now. If BS doesn’t get the support of the Pohlads in future moves as the new stadium grows closer then I will be much more inclined to jump on the anti-Pohlad bandwagon. Thus far, I like BS approach and his moves. Lets see what happens.
Bottom line, Pohlad can afford to play with the Big Boys financially if he wanted to. He does not want to. But he demanded taxpayer help on building a new stadium. That kind of logic makes me think so much less of Pohlad as a human being. I was under the assumption a new stadium meant the Twins could afford to become more competitive, not less. In part, I think Pohlad mislead if not outright lied to the Twins fans.
I am a Twins fan, always have been and will continue to be.
They have a pretty good record when it comes to trades and other personnel decisions. Not perfect but pretty
good.
But even if you concede them that Johan didn’t want to play here and wasn’t going to after the 08 season anyway (and that his proposed new salary was not doable by a small/mid market team anyway)thereby boxing the Twins into having to trade him, it just doesn’t seem reasonable to that one of baseball’s premier pitchers is let go without getting a single major league ready player.
As I said I am a fan and will continue to be. I hope for the best. But this deal is really hard to understand.
roundabout — tell me about your team’s success since 2004? The Mets at least have gone further in that time than your team. If you ask me what would I rather have — to go further in the postseason but appear less often, or to get there every year but get booted early, I’ll take the first scenario.
Now tell me about your team’s success immediately prior to 2004? With Clemens, Pettite, Knoblauch, Neagle, Justice, Canseco, Grimsley and Hill on it. Proud of that? If you are, that’s your choice. But I think it’s suspect.
What I think is interesting is that since the implementation of strict steroids testing in MLB, the Yankees haven’t gotten past the first round of the playoffs. Hmmmm.
Dennis, I hope you are right. Call me a doubter, but Pohlad makes most decisions based on his pocketbook. I will be shocked, pleased, etc if he spends money and we have a chance to win it all in 2009 or 2010. This trade right now leaves an awful taste in my mouth.
Killer-Brew - I fully understand that, and couldn’t agree more. The build-up was so huge. But really, fans here were telling Smith to wait and he’d get much more. At least I’m consistent. I was warning they wouldn’t get more, and should take any of the Yankee or Red Sox offers. I wish they would have. But apart from what could have been, this deal isn’t horrible at all. It’s big downside is that it isn’t as big as what people were expecting.
Killer-Brew. What makes you think the Twins front office was promoting and parading names as possible trades? There was plenty of speculation all over the place, but I have no knowledge of the Twins being involved in that.
management this, management that.
where were you guys at the winter meetings?
Praising Bill Smith for not pulling the trigger.
To many fair weather fans in this state..
also, whats the deal with the yankee and met fans arguing on here?
This is a twins Blog.
Yanks are choke artists, and the mets don’t get to the playoffs often enough to choke!
but i think the mets are in good position to make a run with Johan.
and i really hope johan has an amazing year for them.
as far as the trade goes.
I like it. I am glad its over. I am not one to sit here and judge this trade right now..
its entirely too early..
if you ask me, i think gomez could be a flat out stud.. but then again, maybe not. wont know for some time.
anyways.. stop ya b*tching
your probably the same people b*tching about the AJ trade, and the Knobloch trade..
Mulletman, I think we’re finding some common ground. I am more than willing to hold the Pohlads accountable to spending an amount that should keep the team competitive and in the playoff hunt. We’ll see.
“This trade right now leaves an awful taste in my mouth.”
Mine, too.
The Twins should have let Santana play out his contract or else taken the Yankees’ Hughes and Cabrera, who would have helped “us” starting this April and potentially far into the future.
This trade stinks.
Michael Blaine
http://www.rudelystamped.blogspot.com
roundabout — Our clubhouse guy was no longer our clubhouse guy when he started to deal PEDs. And our catcher was not even our catcher when he took and dealt PEDs. I suggest you read the Mitchell report to better acquaint yourself with the facts.
Mulletman - I agree with you on Pohlad as a human being. Any philosophy built solely around money is very flawed in my opinion. And I’ll never forgive him for the contraction idea. But I’m OK with his ownership if he maintains that 50-55% thing. That is in the upper half of MLB. And the stadium promise is fine, too. The revenues will increase, and therefore the salaries. Jim Pohlad said it publicly on Saturday, so everyone will hold him to it. And I think Bill Smith is exactly the right guy to make that happen.
Hey Metsfan, get the hell out of here.. Go to your credible Post and blog there…A**HOLE
“This trade right now leaves an awful taste in my mouth.”
Mine, too.
The Twins should have let Santana play out his contract or else taken the Yankees’ Hughes and Cabrera, who would have helped “us” starting this April and potentially far into the future.
This trade stinks.
Michael Blaine
http://www.rudelystamped.blogspot.com
Metsfan
You are saying the Yankees making the playoffs and losing means they had a bad season. At the same time, your team has made the playoffs once since 2001 (after losing in the 2000 World Series to the Yankees). Your teams historically is a losing franchise.
Now you are running the steroids game. Only Clemens and Knobloch played a major role on those teams. Hill used while with San Francisco.; Justice wasn’t on the Yanks when accused of using. Canseco was a minor player
Pettitte shot up with HGH twice in 2003 - meaningless.
Your point is silly cause they made the playoffs LOL
Metsfan and roundabout…behave (a little humor there).
Anybody want to talk about other possible moves the Twins could still make in the short-term?
now this was funny:
Dear Twins fans,
Thanks for the free stadium. Now I’m getting rid of your two best players.
Looking forward to 2010, and then 2110. That’s right, I’m going to outlive every one of you S.O.B.s.
Uncle Carl
From the Mitchell Report:
Radomski met Stanton around 2001 while he was pitching for the Yankees. Radomski recalled making two sales of human growth hormone to Stanton. The first occurred in 2003, during Stanton’s first season with the Mets. Early in that season, Radomski mailed two kits of human growth hormone to Stanton at his residence. Stanton paid Radomski $3,200 by money order.
I just would like to say that the Yanks blow!
On August 1st, 1989 the Twins announced the trade with the New York Mets of a Cy Young Winner and World Series winner. They traded Frank Viola for Kevin Tapani, Rick Aguilera, David West and 2 others.
Here is the article from the New York Times:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?
res=950DEFDF1138F932A3575BC0A96F948260
Don’t judge just yet…time will tell if this was a good deal or not. The three I mentioned above had a big hand in our 1991 World Series Championship!
Well, I am going to be a doubting Mullet until I see Pohlad make a deal to improve the 2008 roster. He has now freed up enough money with Hunter and Santana that he should be able to add at least one decent player to the 2008 roster. I hate throw away seasons and would like to see the team be competitive in 2008. I don’t think that is asking too much.
I just am stunned that we did not insist on an offer with a pitcher we can plug into the front of our rotation(Lester,Hughes,heck Pelfry even)The point is we have plenty of Humbers and Mulveys, we should have insisted on Pelfry. I would be ok with this trade if it was Gomez/Pelfry/Guerra/Heilman/Mulvey… but we did not, so the trade is not good.
Gomez could be good, and we need to start him in AAA next year. The Mets were stupid to call him up so early last year, so we need to keep him in AAA until he develops his swing. We are not going to be good next year, so please somebody give me a good reason why the Twins should rush him? Leave him in AAA from anywhere till ALL Star break this year if he develops quickely, or All Star break next year if he develops more slowly. He could be good so it is important not to rush him.
Also it is important to trade Nathan also. I have read some of you guys post and say that Pie would be a good return. That would be bad, unless we decided to trade him right away. WE DONT NEED ANY MORE OUTFIELDERS. Trade Nathan to any team who would give up a excellent 3B prospect, or a top of the line pitcher. I dont care if it would have to add prospects with Nathan to get that type of prospect in return.
What a horrible trade. If Gomez bats .285-.300 and steals 50 bases, and if Guerra is a top two pitcher, and Mulvey is top three pitcher, thoses are the only scenarios in which this would be a good trade. I do not see that happening though.
“Dennis says:
Jim Pohlad said it publicly on Saturday, so everyone will hold him to it.”
Oh, yeah? How????? We Minnesotans are the Pohlads’ playthings; we are saps.
Michael Blaine
http://www.rudelystamped.blogspot.com
If Pohlad doesn’t want to keep the players with this team, he should sell the team to someone who will spend the money to field a winning team. Why not have built this team around Santana? Sure, re-signing Cuddy & Morneau is a good start but they took a step back today trading Santana. I know they got something rather than nothing but still it is disappointing that it has come to this.
Sorry to repost…copy and paste the link to the NY Times article…it does not work if you click it from here.
If you don’t want to check it out, the article went on to say that the “Twins wanted more” out of the deal…but…they got what they could.
Right on Mulletman let’s hope. I got a feeling that old BS has another move cooking. Just a hunch.
Brandon Inge is not happy in Detroit but I doubt the Twins would trade with the Tigers.
“Brandon Inge is not happy in Detroit”
So what?
What does Inge hit, .250 under? we dont want that, he is just a slightly better Punto IMO
It is just not reasonable to put trading Knoblauch (when the Twins were in the middle of eight consecutive losing seasons and had no chance of being competitive) and Pierzynski (when they had a much better catcher and No.1 overall pick ready) in the same category as trading Santana when the Twins could have had a reasonable chance this year with an improved lineup and a healthy Liriano.
I think Inge is worth considering for 3B or additional catcher. Plus he seems like one of those guys that’s always getting big hits against the Twins.
I’m not so sure the Twins are done making moves, they now have $13 million to spend on a starter (think Kyle Lohse, he’d take $13 mil), just kidding. They may bring in someone else to play center or trade for one. A few weeks left before Spring Training, lots could happen!
rather than spend my time bashing the twins and complaining about something, actually none of us know (except our opinions of these guys)about, i would like to see more thoughts on what else is ahead now that this move is finally over….obviously we are not a complete ballclub yet, but whats next…personally i think the twins are going about things very well, and are going to be fun to watch compete, but i would like to see some further moves made to improve for this year and of course the years ahead…time will tell on all trades….just a fact of life…i think the mets are the ones who will be scratching their heads down the road a few years or less–stay positive and upbeat twins fans…after all we do have the best fans…..
Inge can hit 20 hrs knock in 80 runs.. he’s better than what you have..
Gates, I would have rather kept Johan, but he wanted out and he had the leverage. He apparently turned down 5/100 from the Twins within the last couple of days. I think BS had limited options.
Roundabout
I woudld rather have Lamb, and get a 3B prospect in a trade for Nathan later.
Steve H, I agree with you. I think BS will try to add a veteran pitcher. Just a hunch, but maybe some outfield and/or young pitching prospects for a decent veteran. As I frequently tell my wife, I could be wrong, I often am!
Tyler,
Who do you have in mind? Kevin Kouzmanoff? Padres got Trevor Hoffman.
You want Eric Duncan lol
Lamb is not the answer, as a starting third baseman.. he’s been there, not done it
Hey roundabout, before you make a total fool of yourself, I suggest you read more of the Mitchell report before that section you quoted.
Here is an excerpt:
“He worked in the Mets clubhouse in various capacities until November 1994,
when he left because the team restructured the compensation of clubhouse staff…”
Yes, that’s right. Radomski left the Mets in 1994. The sale to Stanton happened almost 10 years after Radomski left the Mets. And interestingly, it was to an ex-Yankee. Figures.
That quote is on page 189 BTW.
Part of my temperment is based on Pohlad and his financial philosophy…and also being a resident of Hennepin county. He wanted contraction. Then he demanded a new stadium so he could be more competitive. Now with a new stadium on the horizon, we need to hold Pohlad accountable so he makes sure the Twins are competitive. Right now I just feel this give-take is only working one way. Pohlad needs to fulfill his end of the deal. I understand the 50-55% metric, but really, why not 60%. It is not as if he can’t afford it. I’m sure he can afford it more than some of the lower income taxpayers of Hennepin county contributing to his new stadium.
Good point Tyler. I think if Nathan has a typical year and the Twins don’t have realistic playoff hopes by mid-year they should be able to get a kings ransom for him. He’s another I would like to keep, but he’s gonna command some big bucks.
I hope this a sign that the senile, meglamaniac that calls himself “the Boss” has slipped into permanent dementia and will stop ruining baseball. So long King George, dont let it hit ya where da good lord split ya.
Radomski told investigators the genesis of his involvement was in his responses to players’ inquiries. He had used steroids at one point in the early 1990s because he was interested in competitive bodybuilding. His appearance at the Mets’ 1993 Spring Training camp was noticeably different, the Report said, and players’ inquiries began. His business grew as a result. The Report addresses the amounts of money that changed hands in some, but not all, scenarios.
The earliest scenarios discussed in the Report appear to be those involving Dykstra. Radomski is quoted as saying he had become “very close with Lenny,” and that Dykstra’s “increased size was noticeable” in Spring Training in 1989. Dykstra had also appeared quite larger the previous spring, when he denied having used steroids. The Report says Dykstra acknowledged his steroid use to Radomski.
The Report also tells of a time in 1994 when Radomski injected former Mets reliever Josias Manzanillo with steroids in the team’s clubhouse at Shea Stadium, and says Manzanillo told investigators that Radomski had encouraged him to purchase the drugs.
Radomski was identified as “Murdoch” by Manzanillo, a nickname given to him by his co-workers in the Mets’ clubhouse because of his habit of embellishing stories, similar to a character of that name on “The A-Team.”
The report also includes a copy of a note to Radomski from Lo Duca — written on Dodgers stationary — that was seized by federal agents during a search of Radomski’s home. Radomski told the investigators it arrived with a check covering the cost of human growth hormone.
off the back of carlos gomez 08 bowman rookie baseball card…skills: a true catalyst..blazing speed and puts tremendous pressure on defense…Good bunter…always a threat to steal and gets to everything in the outfield…..
doesnt sound too bad…hopefully he will hit, other than that he sounds very solid..he will probably work out just fine …can you imagine him and casilla in the top ot the lineup …maybe in 09…could be men on 2nd and 3rd and mauer up 0 out..lol…..spring fever has hit…and its only about -20 ….oh well
My favorite statements from the masses tonight…
Why is it Minnesota always gets the Shiv in trade
HOW ARE YOU PEOPLE NOT MORE UPSET? (The answer is becasue we have lives by the way)
could this possibly be the end of span in the twins org..Huh, we are talking Denard here right? Hall of Famer gets traded and we are talking Denard Span. Ok.
So much out there. Keep it coming.
Thanks for the free stadium. Now I’m getting rid of your two best players. (Ok I get Johan, just tell me you aren’t talking about Torii”I want to play anywhere they’ll overpay me” Hunter.
The nickname “Twinkies” will start to make a comeback this year…
Ok….Everyone who is a major league scout raise your hands….
Love always, the Yankee fan! (Did he think he was posting on a Jeter website? I thought only Jeter gets unconditional love from Yankee fans?)
How long is the team going to be in “rebuilding” phase. (About three months. They won a few Division championships before then.)
The Mets remain a losing franchise — and last year’s monumental choke adds to the club’s persona.. How many games were they leading by before losing to the Phillies?
Tells us, Metsfan..
And roundabout, I’m confused. Are you a Yankees fan or a Twins fan? The reason I ask is because you don’t even know Neagle was on the Yankees in 2000 and played an important role in their postseason. Hill was accused of using while with the Yankees that year. And Justice was also accused of using PEDs while he was a Yankee. I guess if you are a Twins fan I can understand why you don’t know much about the Yanks.
I hear ya MJ1. I wish I was a pitcher or catcher so I could report to Fort Myers soon! Stuck here in the tundra instead. The days are getting longer, spring training is approaching, and the Masters is only 2-1/2 months away….I digress.
SANTANA IS INJURED!
WHAT THE METS SHOULD BE LOOKING AT:
His fastball never got much above 91mph last year.
A puzzling 5mph drop off.
His Velocity was down.
Everyone can now sit on the change-up.
He gave up home runs at a pace that made Radke look good.
He stopped throwing his slider. I repeat he stopped throwing his slider.
His ERA was 4.11 after the break.
He no longer will have the best pitching coach in the game.
Thanks for turning down our 100 million dollar offer.
I am disappointed with this trade. NY sports fans have crowned Omar Minaya king and are LAUGHING at how little they gave up. (Read the NY Daily News and Post blog comments). I am not one to usually criticize Twins pitching decisions since so many have worked out favorably but this isn’t acceptable.
I was so thrilled they signed Morneau and Cuddyer - I had some hope they would just pull out the Visa and pay Johan.
I’m thinkin I’ll go to the Globes Red Sox site and post hahahahahahahahahaha until the wee hours in beantowns name. Want to join me??
roundabout — Sure, the Mets collapse last year was bad, second to only the historic Phillies collapse in ‘64. But it was nowhere as bad as that historic collapse the Yankees suffered in ‘04. As I said, it was tougher to lose in game 7 of the NLCS the year before.
I don’t know what you characterize as a winning or losing franchise, but at least the Mets have two WS titles since they were born in 1962 (the same number as the Red Sox had has since then). And at least they were clean of PEDs.
Better stop trashin the Royals. They gonna sneak up on a lot of folks this year.
And roundabout, you know that long excerpt you copy and pasted from the Mitchell report? That still doesn’t say Radomski was dealing while he was employed with the Mets. In fact, in the report it states he started dealing in 2005, a year after he left the Mets.
This trade is more proof that the Pohlad’s still feel that despite a gift of a new stadium from the public, they still feel that they deserve to recover all their so-called “losses” during the lean years in the ’90s. You don’t give away a future Hall of Famer for a bunch of mid-level, half-baked prospects. This trade reminds me of when the Twins gave away Carew for Ken Landreaux and other stiffs (yes, I know Pohlad can’t be blamed for the Carew deal, but, it’s comparable).
Ooops, my previous post should read “In fact, in the report it states he started dealing in 1995, a year after he left the Mets.”
Justice was accused of using after the 2000 world series and he denied it.
From the report:
Radomski said he made one sale to Justice, which occurred after the 2000 World Series. Justice played for the Yankees that year. Justice paid Radomski by check for two or three kits of human growth hormone. Radomski said that he cashed this check.
Hill had 12 abs against the As and played little in the championship round and world series.. He was not a factor, if he indeed was using HGH
Most of this “dialogue” is comical.
Posting comments along the lines of “this trade sucked” makes me chuckle.
How anyone can effectively gage this trade as anything other than a calculated risk amazes me. Seems like the Twins have quite a few young arms in the stable, no? Just maybe there could be other things in plan for the not too distant future here….
Stop expecting immediate gratification.
Not a single one of us truly understands the environment that the parties are participating in (that includes Gammons and the ESPN “know it alls”).
No one really knows how any of this will pan out and to go off on a rant on it demonstrates an immature reaction to the situation.
There’s always a new all star stud waiting in the wings for their chance, this is baseball…ride it out.
I pay for my tickets like the rest of you and I’ll probably be sitting close by but I’ll be enjoying the game with or without a “superstar” pulling 20 mill a year to chase down, throw, hit or swing and miss…..
Even the mighty Casey struck out.
Chill
Well great job! Are you frickin’ kidding me, that’s all I can say. So frustrating. You have a chance to get Melky and Hughes, and you take this? Man, I’m so frustrated with this, I’m not attending a single game next year. I guess with the AL Central being stacked, might as well throw in the towel early!!!!! Boooooooooooooooo
Sure won’t miss all the East Coast bloggers. This does not include you roundabout. You actually make good points & don’t get off on name calling. Nighty night everyone. Don’t lose any sleep over this trade. The sun will rise again tomorrow, the overpaid mercenary will be in the big apple & we will have lots of young talent to enjoy as it develops.
Maybe if we beg him to come back Brad Radke will pitch in 08
Metsfan has to be the biggest loser in here. Do something useful and go fight in Iraq!
Metsfan: Thanks for the encouraging reports on the Mets players. Your type of intelligent discourse is always welcome on this blog.
Boston Tom and Beantown: You are exactly the kind of obnoxious, know-it-all Red Sox fanatics that I accused others on this blog of sounding like…but I was wrong to do that. Twins fans venting because they hoped for a better trade is one thing. But anyone who gets their jollies from taunting another team’s fans on their own blog about a trade their team wasn’t even part of has stooped to a much lower level of unsportsmanlike conduct. For some reason you think that your team winning makes YOU better fans–all it means is that the team who happens to play in your city is better than the team that plays in other cities. I’m glad you didn’t get Johan because he’s too classy for the likes of you clowns.
Jim Souhan says the Twins had no choice. There is always a choice and they chose to trade a great pitcher for nothing. Do NOT compare this to the Frank Viola trade in 1989. That kind of return doesn’t happen very often. The Twins are idiots. This is the stupidist thing they’ve ever done. How can they expect to keep fans when they pull this kind of junk. Fans should boycott and complain loudly about how they got a new stadium and were kicked in the pants for it. The billionaires run baseball and if a New York team doesn’t win a World Series then the season is a failure because they don’t make enough money. The Salt Lake Bees look like a pretty good team to follow now.
Has anyone considered the fact that Santana doesnt want to go to the Mets resulting in him using his no trade clause.
Good stuff OldSkool. I wonder when the last time was when Gammons, Olney, etc. ever brought up a past prediction that they got wrong. You know, a can’t miss prospect that failed or better yet, an also ran that in their eyes that turned out to be star. The immediate gratifcation in return for Johan was not going to happen.
Twins Fan in RI, you’re the smartest person I’ve come across in this blog tonight! I commend you on that!
roundabout — you said that Justice and Hill were not Yankees when they were accused of using. That simply is not true according to the report.
Further, Hill had an OPS+ of 175 down the stretch for the Yankees that year. A year in which they struggled at the end to make the playoffs. Without Hill and Canseco, who was also hot down the stretch, perhaps the Yankees don’t even make the playoffs that year.
On good thing about this trade…the Yankees didn’t get him.
Ex-Twins fan and XTwinsFan, thanks for making better seats available by way of your lack of attendance next year. Are you two related? Sorry, could not resist.
Traded the best pitcher in baseball and can’t even get a bona fide major league player in return. Well done! This is just sick. I’m really starting to hate the organization. They finally get they’re stadium and they reward us with letting their 2 best players go. Carl, you can’t take your money with you. Do us all a favor, sell the team and go straight to hell. Haven’t you taken advantage of the fine people in this state long enough? I wouldn’t expect anything more from a guy who made most of his money foreclosing properties. Stop feeding this monster people. Boycott until they can do a little more than just compete.
I sure hope Santana can NOT work out a contract with the Mets, as slim as that hope seems right now.
Michael Blaine
http://www.rudelystamped.blogspot.com
OK, here’s what everyone should be pi$$ed about. We could’ve had some proven big league players from both the Red Sox and Yankees, but the twins organization thought they should get greedy…..great! Now we have prospects, just prospects! A prospect is defined as somebody who is likely to succeed in the future. The future! We have so many holes to fill, none of these address the gaping holes now…or in a few years.
3Putt…AMEN!!!
I am not sure the Twins had much choice in the matter other than to deal with the Mets.
The Yankees pulled their offer (no one other than LEN3 thought the Yanks were players)
The Red Sox supposedly pulled the Jon Lester package. I was surprised to read that. I was under the impression (false, probably) that Jacoby Ellsbury was the player the team wouldn’t trade.
So what was left - the Mets or two draft picks. Like I said repeatedly, the Mets were not pressured to offer F Martinez. Then again, a few weeks ago, an ESPN guy reported there were some among the Twins heirarchy who thought Gomez had a stronger upside to Martinez and potentially a better hitter.
Maybe, the Twins bosses got what they wanted. I am surprised they didn’t demand Pelfry as part of the deal.
Yes, 3Putt:
Your position is the one the whole state should take.
MB
Ex from X..YOU SAID IT!!!
“Jim Souhan says the Twins had no choice.”
He’s part of the machine. Jim Souhan has no choice but to say that.
MB
Not wanting to read all the posts,remember that 1.) Santana can veto the trade, 2.) The Mets may not reach a long term deal with Santana and, 3.) Evidently Santana does not want to be here if he and his agent pressed the Twins to “get something done.” Offereing an extension is getting something done in my book, if they didn’t like $80 mil over 4 yrs, they didn’t want to be here. And regarding Santana’s numbers, the Twins were basically out of it from the All-Star break, I wouldn’t risk injury either. Or for that matter look at how many other Twins phoned it in after the break…. Morneau, Mauer, Cuddy, Gardy…
The news we’ve been waiting for:
Off the back of carlos gomez 08 bowman rookie baseball card…skills: a true catalyst..blazing speed …Good bunter
He’s a Good Bunter!
Hey! We got a Good Bunter for Santana!
3Putt, I loved Torri, but he was not worth what the Angels paid him. We should not have paid him that kind of money. Should we have paid him a lessor amount earlier when we could have? Maybe, that’s a fair argument but I think it was more of a Terry Ryan issue than a Pohlad issue. I loved Johan, but he wanted out and he had the leverage. Time will tell if we got a fair price for him even though it is unknown now.I am no fan of the Pohlads, but I’m not sure what more they could have done with Johan. He supposedly turned down 5/100 today from the Twins. What are you gonna do but trade him?
MetsFan,
I didn’t say Justice and Hill were not Yankees. I said Justice was accused of using steroids for the first time after the world series. Hill was not a factor in the championship round or world series
Canseco and Hill were minor players for the Yanks..
The guidos in NYC are doing cartwheels over this trade. Let’s see, should the Mets swap 4 might-be-MLB players for 1 Hall of Famer? I think anyone outside of MN takes that trade.
At least the prospects can look forward to a beautiful new locker room in 2010. So they got that going for them.
Can we get Pohlad and Smith in the dunk tank at the state fair? Should be a record breaking fundraiser for someone. I’ve got a few hundred dollars. And an extra hundred for the employee who removes the plexiglass shield on the front.
I haven’t been this disappointed since KG was given away by McHale. Was that really only last summer? I want to puke.
Oh, and another thing…..I thought getting rid of Santana and Hunter was a great idea. I think both are on their way down. BUT, you need to get enough in return to fill those holes left by them leaving. I mean c’mon, who’s our number one starter? Boof? Liriano is going to be hit or miss after Tommy John surgery. Talk about throwing all your eggs in the Liriano basket. I guess I just look at a trade like the Wolves made (I know, different sport but….). Traded a super-star for a bunch of young “prospects”, and look at them….they suck!
I think the Mets are willing to meet Santana’s price.. Why would they trade for him if they won’t offer him 6 or 7 years.
Twins fans, I know it seems bad at first, but give it time. Im telling you, Gomez is the outfield Reyes. Humber has not been given a fair shot, he pitched once in the minors, when our idiot manager decided to start him after TWO WEEKS of rest!
Who would pitch a good game on triple the normal rest? Humber was our top pitching Prospect before the TJ surgery, and this year is the first year that he’s supposed to get back to form (it takes 2 yrs to fully recover from tj)
Guerra was the only prospect in our system that projected to be an ace. Hes got a perfect build for an ace, and already pitched well in A-ball at 18. 18! AND he’s venezuelan. That country is like a freakin All Star Factory
Mulvey is a middle of the rotation starter who was going to help us this year when our guys inevitably got injured. he doesnt have a dominating fastball, but he commands 4 pitches with good location and movement.
These are not scrubs, and these guys will be hitting their stride as Johan starts to decline.
I know its not Phil Hughes, but word is, he was never on the table anyway, just Hank shooting off his mouth about things he doesnt know. Cashman is in love with the kid.
I concur with Viola all over guy….
The Hughes deal, more than likely, was nothing more than a feeler put out for reaction….
I highly doubt that the Yankees would have ever parted with Hughes.
roundabout — This is what you said and I quote:
“Hill used while with San Francisco.; Justice wasn’t on the Yanks when accused of using.”
Do you have a bad memory? Seriously?
Also, are you a Twins fan or Yankees fan? I can’t believe you are a Yankees fan since you have such a hazy knowledge of that team and its members mentioned in the Mitchell report. So you’re a Twins fan, right?
Ex-twins. As a life long Mn sports fan I know it’s hard to hear that we need to be patient…again. I get that. But I think that BS and the Twins are on the right track. I think there are moves yet to be made which could change the openeing day pitching staff and perhaps other positions too (just a hunch). However, even if that does not happen, I think several of the Twins young starters will take a step forward this year. I think 2008 could be .500 year and very entertaining. I think 2009 and beyond look very promising. I think the Twins will spend some significant money between now and when the stadium opens in 2010. We’ll see. The T-wolves have management problems that I do not think the Twins have. Ironic that Glen Taylor will spend the money but can’t get a winner, and Carl tries not to spend money but has a pretty good history of remaining competitive.
Justice was not a Yankee after the World Series of 2000, when he was accused of using. Note the report, the one sale to Justice took place After the world series. You wrote Justice used during the 2001 season..
I later wrote:
roundabout says:
January 29th, 2008 at 9:36 pm
Justice was accused of using after the 2000 world series and he denied it.
From the report:
Radomski said he made one sale to Justice, which occurred after the 2000 World Series. Justice played for the Yankees that year. Justice paid Radomski by check for two or three kits of human growth hormone. Radomski said that he cashed this check.
i dont know what you guys think about this or saw it yet
“I think Carlos Gomez has a chance to be a fantastic player,” Glavine said of his former teammate. “You hear a lot about five-tool guys and he’s definitely a legit five-tool guy. Humber, the same way, has a great arm and great potential. Long-term, this could be a very good trade for the Twins.”
Metsfan,
All this steroid talk just clouds the fact you team has a losing history. Your team won in 1969, lost in 1973, won in 1986 and then a pennant in 2000 - losing to the Yankees.
And last year your team choked away the most comfortably lead possibly. Were you not crying and cursing?
The team’s history is not too good considering the team has been around what 47 years..
And last ye
during the 2000 season, Metsfan wrote
Metsfan and roundabout. I usually enjoy reading your posts. However, I fear the two of you are just reading each other. At a glance I see that you are discussing the merits of the Mitchell report. I’m not sure which of you are right or wrong, but I for one don’t much care about the Mitchell report details like you two must. Just my 2 bits worth.
Werb,
Metsfan brought it up and I am just correcting his errors. I am not all that interested in the Mitchell report either..
werbellik. I sure hope you’re right. I do think if they fill a few holes before opening day they’ll be OK. But, I also think they kind of threw in the towel and are rebuilding for an opening day line-up for the new stadium. I’m fine with that, but I just keep thinking about the deals we had on the table and didn’t take. I do like the core of the team (Cuddyer, Morneau, Mauer), but there’s no way we can compete with just them. Time will tell as always with young prospects, but I think .500 this year would be a GREAT year with the way the team is shaping up.
i want to see how Carlos Gomez plays in spring traning in cf befor hes are starter in cf this year but right now i think he is and rember this year or next will be his rookie year i think this year he will hit around .270 avg
but i think he could be a mid .280-.300 hiter on the sb around 35-50 for this year and i think i’m way off what do you guys think and good df
Mets fan is a great big hack…do dah do dah metsfan is a great big hack ah the do dah day ah the do dah day ah the do dah day metsfan is a great big hack ah the do dah
Roundabout — tell me you’re a Twins fan or else I’ll be dumbfounded at your lack of knowledge about the Yankees.
1) You wrote in your post of 9:03 PM that Justice “wasn’t on the Yanks when accused of using.”
2) At 10:05 PM you wrote: “Justice was not a Yankee after the World Series of 2000″
3) In fact, Justice was a Yankee in 2001! He played in 111 games for them that year and that was the only team he player for that year. (Please, look it up if you don’t believe me, lol)
4) He was accused of using PEDs in 2001!
Therefore, Justice was a Yankee when he was accused of using.
C - Mauer
1B - Morneau
2B - Harris
SS - Everett
3B - Lamb
LF - Young
CF - ?/Pridie/Lofton/Patterson
RF - Cuddyer
DH - Kubel/Monroe
UtilIF - Punto
Stop Gap line-up @ best. Still need legit 3B & CF.
Gomez is going to be a good player - he will be a table setter, not a power guy. He’s not that much different from Jacoby Ellsbury, the centerfielder many Twins fans coveted. Ellsbury’s skills are more advanced.
webelik — I apologize for getting into it with roundabout here. But he was totally misinformed about the Yankees. You can look it up. I will leave you now as I don’t want to upset Twins fans on what is a sensitive day for them. But first tell me, is roundabout a Twins fan or Yankees fan? He won’t answer that question.
Time will tell Ex-Twins fan. I’m excited to see Delmon Young, and I hope if he has another excellent year that the Twins try to lock him up before he hits his top value years. I’m also excited to see how Liriano does along with Baker, Slowey and even a slimmed down Boof. Not to mention the new arms coming up from our system and the two newest additions from the Mets. You gotta have hope!
Here is another Twins fan’s opinion. (We are entitled to our opinion as the paying customers). BS overplayed his hand in trying to playing the Red Sox and Yankees against each other.
It seems their are a lot of allegedly “patient” baseball pundits on here who are busy claiming imaginary high ground by not criticizing this trade but rather the distraught and disappointed fans. These are also the usual Twins apologists who think our front office are wise men who always see ahead and get it right.
It has been largely the same people running the Twins office for many years. Many on here are implying that the scouting dept. and front office is superior and consistently successful as well as above reproach.
Here are a few thoughts on that. In the last 10 years, 7 of our last 10 first selections in the draft were Ryan Mills, B.J. Garbe, Adam Johnson, Denard Span, Matt Moses, Trevor Plouffe, and Chris Parmalee. This same brain trust in the Twins front office felt David Ortiz couldn’t hit enough to risk spending $1mm via arbitration and further that Matt LeCroy would be a great replacement. They did however feel that same year that they could justify a Multi-year and multi million dollar contract for Doug Mientkiewicz. They also recently identified such luminaries as Ramon Ortiz, Castro, Punto, Ponson, Cirillo, Ford, R.White, T. Batista, (just to name a few recent selections) as worthy of contracts worth at least 7 figures. This front office is not perfect or beyond criticism.
I readily admit that the Twins have made many great and astute moves. I am just venting because I am annoyed at the “Nanny” opinions on here that we should just accept this trade as some sort of esoteric scouting coup. The Twins overplayed their hand and got a risky headliner in Gomez vs. a superior talent like Hughes. Why should Twins fans be happy about this trade?
Metsfan,
I just erred on Justice. I was thinking about the World Series defeat of the Mets, not 2001.
The fact is the Yanks won cause they were they better team and PEDs had nothing to do with it..
And your team still has a losing history
Hope is all I have left!!! I’m out, thanks for the posts. All I can say is GO WILD (until they frickin’ trade Gaborik)!! :0
Liriano, Slowey, Baker, Bonser, Perkins, Blackburn,
Remember guys, Gomez is faster then Reyes. The Mets already have the advantage of having a leadoff walk and a single = a run. Teach the kid some plate discipline and you’re good to go. Its great having a head start in almost every game, and then having a major threat like Reyes on the basepaths is constantly keeping pitchers off their game.
& Duensing plus the prospects from the Mets seems to be a try-out for 2010.
I saw at the Mets website that Gomez is 6 ft 4. How many 6-4 lead-off table setters are there in baseball? If that’s what the experts say about him, then I’m ok with that, but you gotta wonder if there’s some power there to cultivate on an athlete that size. Then again, Mauer is 6-6…never mind.
Now the “Joe Nathan Watch” begins………
WIZARD11:
I just think we got fleeced, is all. This trade is like giving up a Randy Moss for a fourth round draft choice.
Wait…………
The Raiders already did that.
Metsfan, are you one of those street vendors that sells hot nuts?
Werb
One report had some in Twins heirarchy preferring Gomez over Martinez. Maybe improving his power means working on his swing or muscling him up. He’s listed as 6′2”, 175 on this minor league site. He’s kind of lean. Looking at his numbers, he doesn’t seem to walk too much. Maybe he is more of a project than I thought.
My dream question I’d like to hear La Velle ask anyone in the Twins front office: “How concerned are you that the longer you work here, the more inept you become?”
Wizard, I agree with you. The moral of your post is we don’t know how this trade will turn out and we won’t for awhile. I think that’s what I’ve been saying all night. SO, I had hoped for more for Johan, but I’m not all bent out of shape about the trade either. Johan wanted to go, and he had the leverage. As my 22 year-old would say..it is what it is.
dano - Thanks for sharing the Glavine quote. I’ve realized, though, that most people posting here after this trade don’t have any interest in hearing the other side. Some are really frustrated and feel better just expressing that frustration. Others just have a compulsion to be negative. And others just don’t like thinking about things in depth. I’m not saying any one position is correct, but I’d like to hear more than raw emotion that willfully refuses to investigate the situation.
Maybe the twins will do a trade with the Red Sox for coco. I wouldn’t judge so quick the Mets prospects and say that they are garbage. We need to wait couple years to see how things may turn out. I’m sure the scouting people saw something good on them. Who knows? In few years people maybe thanking the GM for doing this trade.
It will be interesting to read if LEN3 and other Trib reporters actually talk to fans about this trade (which wasn’t on the front page of the paper’s website)
Twins fans,
I would have liked to see us do a little better in this trade for the
“right now” but I’m willing to wait a
couple years to judge. Remember, the
Mariners lost Griffey, Randy Johnson and A-Rod in successive years and ended up winning 116 games in 2001. (Of course they had Brett Boone all roided up for 37HR’s and 141 RBI.
Is the hold music when one calls the Twins front office the theme from The Exorcist?
Hey Christina, you’re an idiot!
Pioneer press poll on the trade
Twins’ Johan Santana headed to Mets, if he signs new deal
CHARLEY WALTERS
Pioneer Press
01/29/2008
The Twins have agreed to trade Johan Santana to the New York Mets for four prospects, two Twins officials told the Pioneer Press, but the two-time Cy Young Award winner must agree to a contract extension.
The Twins would receive outfielder Carlos Gomez and pitchers Phil Humber, Deolis Guerra and Kevin Mulvey.
As part of today’s agreement, the Mets have a 72-hour window to work out a contract extension for Santana, who is entering the final year of his contract and is eligible for free agency after the 2008 season. Santana also must pass a physical.
The deal first was reported on USA Today’s Web site.
Santana to Mets: Your call
Johan Santana appears to be headed for the New York Mets. The Twins would receive outfielder Carlos Gomez and pitchers Phil Humber, Deolis Guerra and Kevin Mulvey. Is this a good trade for the Twins?
Total Votes = 939
Yes, it’s a good deal
24.81 %
No, it’s not
75.18 %
i am thinking about quiting the minnesota fan club because everytime our team gets good and has a great player we let them go. All Minnesota sport teams let you down one way or another.
Beantown!!! and other Boston folks can gloat all they want but they just screwed up and lost the best SP in baseball.
Dumb is giving $14.4mil to JD Drew and smart is not giving Hunter $90mil over 5yrs. Dumb is giving $11mil to Varitek, a very mediocre catcher. Smart is locking up Morneau for 6yrs. Like someone said earlier, it’s easy for the high revenue teams to bury their f-ups. Smaller market teams have to be shrewd and savvy.
Wizard - I’m one of your so-called apologists. However, you’ve got the story a bit skewed. I’m not saying this is a great trade, or that there weren’t better trades earlier. What I’m saying is that it’s way too early to have any real judgment about it. You can say it’s scary to get mostly prospects, but you can’t just say “it’s horrible” and leave it at that.
Also, the Twins quite frankly kind of suck when it comes to drafting. One reason is that it’s much harder to project a high school kid, or even a college kid who’s never faced high level competition. They seem to make a lot of mistakes with that. But they do seem much better at identifying good players once they’ve played in the minors. It’s really two distinct levels of scouting.
Lastly, I’ve said several times tonight that the Twins may have erred by not taking an earlier offer. But almost 100% of the posters on these blogs were saying a month ago that Smith should be tough, and the Yankees would add Kennedy and the Red Sox would combine Lester and Ellsbury. National “pundits” were saying the same thing. So it’s not like Smith made this unique blunder that everyone else saw coming.
Imagine if you will…
The Twins trade for a player that becomes a potential rookie of the year candidate. You would assume that is a pretty good acquisition right? Then you find out that player is Lew Ford and you immediately flock to every online blog to rant about it.
My point is that you cannot predict talent, but I do not doubt the Twins abilities to find it: i.e. Liriano/Nathan.
Additionally, a competitive team isn’t going to give up its major league ready talent (Jose Reyes) to get more talent. Especially considerably more expensive talent (Santana).
Anyway you look at it, this is a positive for the Twins (unless you preferred 2 first round draft picks next year).
Hawk you couldn’t be more right. Good post!
Tito - What’s more idiotic - making a valid point that has a lot of common sense (judging a trade with prospects after we see what happens to the prospects, as opposed to having an emotional overreaction instantly), or calling someone an idiot without having a reason???
the best quote I’ve read so far, “Four guys named ‘who’”
This isn’t my first choice of trades, but only time will tell. Before anyone puts too much stock in Baseball America’s rankings and opinions, I would encourage you to go back and look at the archives of the “Top Ten Prospects” lists that everyone is putting so much stock in. They are quite entertaining how far off they are at times.
For example: the Yankee’s 2004 top ten list has all of 4 players that are actually in MLB right now and two of those were numbers 9 and 10.
They also predicted that JD Durbin would be the #2 starter behind Santana and in front of Loshe within 2 years.
It’s a crap shoot, and you just have to see what happens.
roundabout — OK, I’m glad you acknowledge he was a Yankee (as was Hill) when they did PEDs.
As for whether PEDs played a role in 2000, you can believe what you want. But reasonable people can see where they did. And two out of the four starters in the Yankees postseason rotation juiced, according to the report.
Whether you think the Mets are a losing organization or not is irrelevant. They were an expansion franchise that struggled in their early days (yet drew a boatload of fans) and so that affects their record. Since that time, they’ve been a winning organization. And, at least they are cleaner than the Yankees.
I’m outta here. Again, werbellik, I apologize to Twins fans like you for going at it with roundabout here. Don’t worry, I’m not coming back. But I still wish your team good luck with the prospects you got. After hearing that essentially the Red Sox and Yankees dropped out, Smith did the best he could, though I think he should have moved more swiftly and avoided the long-drawn out drama.
Humber is 25, Johan is 28…Humber better be ready to go about Mar 3 or 4 (game 3 or 4 of next season). Mulvey will be 23 in May and Gomez is 22, realistically a year away. Seems to me that Gomez and Guerra (19 in April) are the real keys to this trade.
Hey Tito,
Can you explain why you think I’m an idiot?
great piece on pohlad. i loathe the man.
http://mlbfleecefactor.com/2008/01/29/off-field-fleeces-billionaire-carl-pohlad-fleeces-twins-fans-again/
Very Upset - I understand (and partly share) your frustration. However, you’re overlooking that the Twins just signed Morneau and Cuddyer to long term extensions, and last year signed Mauer. Further, we offered Johan $100M for five years, and only traded him when he rejected that. It simply makes no sense to give Torii Hunter $18M a year for five years, or to give Johan $25M a year for 7 years. There was only one team that would pay that to Torii and perhaps only one that will pay that to Johan.
And imagine what it would be like to be a fan of the Royals, Pirates, Devil Rays, etc. The Twins won the division four years out of the past six.
Since the Twins are supposedly good at gauging other teams’ minor league talent, I wonder if the Twins front office is good at identifying a Twins fan vs. a Mets or Yankees or Red Sox fan? Here’s a hint: The Twins fan is the one who typically looks like he’s been kicked in the family jewels.
Make that April 3 or 4…..Sorry
roundabout-
I hope Cashman is right about HIS youth movement. If the starting rotation struggles and/or goes on the DL….and Santana winning with the Mets, Cashman will have some tough questions to answer. Steinbrenners and NY reporters can and will be ruthless.
I understand that something had to get done. It is better to get something than to be stuck with two compensatory picks at the end of next season after Santana would have signed with the Yankees.
That being said, I can’t understand why we did not get one player Twins fans could be immediately excited about. The Mets get the best player in baseball and still hold on to David Wright, Jose Reyes, and F-Mart… It just does not seem fair.
Looking back on the alleged offers, at least we would have had something to look forward to with Philip Hughes or Jacoby Ellsbury. Now we are stuck hoping that the Twins will be able to develop these players into Major League talent.
At least Santana is in the National League and not contributing to another Yankees championship…. But yeah, I think we got hosed.
“And imagine what it would be like to be a fan of the Royals, Pirates, Devil Rays, etc. The Twins won the division four years out of the past six.”
Yes, I enjoy fondly remembering my last four dinners over the past six days. It will come in handy when I starve in the future.
Oh, and I don’t see any difference between cheering for the Royals, Pirates, Devil Rays, and now the Twins.
We’ve devolved into plankton just like them.
What a great time to be a Minnesota sports fan! We get to see David Ortiz in the World Series, Randy Moss in the Super Bowl, maybe Kevin Garnett in the NBA finals. In nine months, maybe Santana will be facing Tori Hunter in the World Series.
I can’t sleep.
How is Hank going to sign Santana after the 2008 season now? He’s got the money but no player anymore.
Saw a highlight of Gomez on TV. Tall, athletic looking player. Definitely not a Span or McDonald. The kid has some wheels and some pipes. Interesting.
Hawk,
I hope Cashman is correct. I would be shocked if the Yanks are wrong about all three of them. From all signs, Hughes and Chamberlain have the power arms (if healthy) Can Chamberlain become a successful starter, we shall see.
Kennedy has some speed and lots of guile. It worked well for Maddux and Mussina. Who knows.
the WORST part of it is that the Twins could have re signed San a year ago but were totally constipated.
YES!!!
The Sox don’t have to pay a king’s ranson in prospects and a 6-year contract and the Yanks are left with a rotation of 3 kids who can’t pitch 200 innings.
This doesn’t guarantee anything for the Sox, but it’s the best possible resolution to the Santana situation.
HAWK:
Off the back of carlos gomez 08 bowman rookie baseball card…skills: a true catalyst..blazing speed…Good bunter
Hey! We got a good bunter for Santana!
Bos vs NYY - CC Sabathia 2008-09 FA sweepstakes. Will make Santana’s contract look tame in comparison.
Sabathia might sign with Indians… We’ll have to wait and see if CC has another year like 2007…
dont know if you guys saw this yet or not
Here’s a nice prospect analysis from Joe Janish of Metstoday.com:
We know the value of Johan Santana — his presence instantly establishes the Mets as “the team to beat” (sorry, Jimmy Rollins). It also means that Mets are playing for 2008, and that a postseason appearance is EXPECTED.
But let’s quickly look at the players going the other way.
Carlos Gomez
After Lastings Milledge was sent to Washington, Gomez emerged as the Mets’ number-one position prospect. Yes, Fernando Martinez might have more upside in the long run, but right now, Gomez is closer to MLB ready and has already proven two unteachable raw skills (speed and arm) as well as a third tool (fielding). Will he be a superstar? It’s not out of the question — it all depends on how his bat develops. He will be missed, but as was pointed out on MetsToday yesterday, there was a guy named Beltran blocking the way. I fully expect him to compete for the Twins’ starting centerfielder job, and believe that he will be their regular there by the end of 2008. For Gomez, it’s a great opportunity: he has the chance to be an everyday Major Leaguer, and do it in the friendly atmosphere of Minneapolis.
Philip Humber
Personally, I think Humber is ready to pitch at the MLB level somewhere — but it wasn’t going to happen with the Mets. From what we’ve seen of him, there’s been some question about his stomach — meaning, I’m not so sure he was ready to handle the mental and emotional rigors of pitching under the media microscope known as New York City. Certainly, he was a longshot to make the Mets’ 25-man roster in 2008. With the Twins, he will have a better chance to crack the rotation, and he’ll be in a much more comfortable environment — which better fits his personality. I believe he has a good chance to swipe the fifth spot in their rotation with a strong spring. Otherwise, he should crack the staff one or another by 2009 the latest.
Kevin Mulvey
The NJ-born Mulvey would have been a nice story — local boy makes good. But let’s get serious, if Philip Humber was a longshot to make the team, Mulvey’s chances weren’t so great either — not in 2008 anyway. Though, he does in many ways resemble Brian Bannister, and probably projects to a similar ceiling. Could it be as soon as 2008? Doubtful, but he was impressive enough for me to believe he’ll vie for a spot in the Minnesota rotation in 2009. Sure, he might at best be a back-end starter — but even those #4 and #5s are hard to find.
Deolis Guerra
Hard to evaluate a guy most of us have never seen pitch. Going on the various reports from scouts, Baseball America, and the like, Guerra is a big-time prospect with plenty of upside. But he’s only 18 years old, and so much can happen between now and his MLB debut. Yes, he could very well turn into a Santana-type pitcher one day, but that won’t be for at least four or five years. Further, there’s just as good a chance that he either doesn’t develop as many expect, or that he injures his arm before he makes the big leagues. While it would have been exciting to watch his progress through the ranks, he has mountains to ascend on his way to MLB.
In the end, it’s a great deal for everyone involved. The Mets, obviously, get the ace they sorely needed. The Twins get three guys who are very close to MLB-ready and a teenager who might some day be a dominating pitcher. And the four prospects going to Minnesota get a golden opportunity to mature in an ideal environment. Win - win - win all around.
NYY may not make play-offs this year, they will pay all top players top $$$$ this next off-season, watch and see.
Factors in why the Twins didn’t get “value” for Santana:
1) Coming off his first ever disappointing second half.
2) Free agent at the end of ‘08. Couldn’t be traded unless the receiving team would sign him to a record contract.
3) Two of the only three teams that would be willing to pay a record contract would be paying a luxury tax on his salary.
4) Twins were demanding gold–highly regarded prospects or major league ready players (at minimum salary).
5) Other top pitchers (Haren, Bedard) were available.
6) No trade clause limited options, and gave Santana at least veto-power over any trade.
7) Sticker shock over the money involved. (Over $100 in salary for one guy)
kenny rogers and Cap’n Obvious, I love your posts. They cracked me up and I wholeheartedly agree with both of you. Ditto that to Tom. I say we grab our pitchforks and torches and go storm the gates! At the very least dissenting voices could be then heard above the din of apologies for this trade.
I just can’t get excited about this package. Mulvey and Humber are nothing special (when you trade a future HOF-caliber pitcher, you better get something). Gomez has tools and could be exciting, but he’s a far cry from a sure thing. Same for Guerra. He’s so young. I would have rather had the Ellsbury package. That being said, I’ll root like heck for the kids we picked up. It just seems like a low return, and that’s disappointing.
Hey Kenny R.-
Maybe in the late innings, we can have Gomez “pinch-bunt” for Punto? Weird thought….
More garbage from wealthy, arrogant east coast teams:
In the end, it’s a great deal for everyone involved. The Mets, obviously, get the ace they sorely needed. The Twins get three guys who are very close to MLB-ready and a teenager who might some day be a dominating pitcher. And the four prospects going to Minnesota get a golden opportunity to mature in an ideal environment. Win - win - win all around.
Jeeeeeeze…………….gimme a break, four guys named “who?”.
Why is it that nobody is talking about his family? He needs to put food on the table for his friends, aunts, uncles, cousins, nieces, nephews, second cousins, third cousins. etc..
wow!! Everybody in new york is going crazy!!! Omar Minaya is being talked about like he is GOD, mets fans are going crazy because they believe they got santana for a bag of ball.
if you want to listen in go to:
http://www.wfan.com/ its a major New york radio station.
Remember the AJ trade…..3 guys named who.
Dano,
I think that the Mets blogger offered an extremely rosy colored, optimistic view of the Mets prospects, none of whom could beat out a current Mets pitcher. We’re talking about a team whose bullpen was horrible. The starters were Maine, inconsistent Perez (whom I like), 5-inning Pedro and ???? Pelfry and … ???
At this point a semi-steal for the Mets for the immediate 3 years or so.. After that, it depends on if the prospects become solid major leaguers.
http://www.wfan.com/
the city has Exploded, met fans are going nut!!!!
Like I stated earlier, Humber is 25, his time is now, the others have 1-3 years to prove their value as Johan declines (yeah right).
roundabout-
I have a hard time seeing Chamberlain as a SP. He must have pretty good stuff with some heat. Personally, I see him replacing Rivera as the closer. If the FO is pushing Chamberlain to start, they should have just traded for Santana.
Bosox must feel rather smug. They’ve done nothing to improve their team for 2008. Seems like they are setting themselves up for a piece of reality.
wow!! Everybody in new york is going crazy!!! Omar Minaya is being talked about like he is GOD, mets fans are going crazy because they believe they got santana for a bag of ball.
if you want to listen in go to:
http://www.wfan.com/ its a major New york radio station. You guys gotta listen to this.
Hey Daddy Mack
Remember the Tapani and Guthrie trade to the Dodgers (probably not)….It was for 3 guys still named “who”
HAWK:
The helluvit it is, Gardie is probably doing cartwheels because he might be getting somebody who CAN lay down a bunt!
Have a good night, I’m outta here.
Can you imagine the fan reaction in Mets land if Omar fails to sign Santana?
WIZARD!!:
Good one Wiz, made my day a little better.
Bosox = Lester, Bucholz, Ellsbury, Lowrie, Moss…. no improvement there.
Bye Bye Johan. We will miss you.
How long before we wave bye to Gaborik? Seems like Minnesota teams can’t keep their stars.
Scouting report on Gomez from Seth Stohs:
Carlos Gomez – 22 year old OF
In every Santana trade rumor, the Twins would be acquiring a centerfielder who would become their regular centerfielder of the future. Jacoby Ellsbury, Adam Jones and Melky Cabrera are the other examples. In a potential Mets deals, Gomez is that guy. And “potential” is the key word with Gomez. He is young and he is talented. He stole 64 bases in 2005 and 41 in 2006. The power is believed to be coming, but to this point, it hasn’t really arrived yet. In 2005, in A ball, he hit eight homers and had just 27 extra base hits. In 2006, at AA (at age 20 remember), he had seven home runs and 39 extra base hits. Lack of home runs doesn’t bother me so much. Joe Mauer can be incredibly productive without hitting a lot of home runs. But he hits a lot of doubles and he walks more than he strikes out. To this point in Gomez’s career, he does not walk a lot and he strikes out almost three times for every walk.
The truth is that Gomez could really have used a full season at AAA New Orleans in 2007. He was showing a lot in his 36 games there, including more walks and steals. But injuries in the Mets outfield meant that they needed to push him to the big leagues. He showed plenty of promise, but in reality, it probably slowed his progress. And then in early July, he had a hand injury and did not return until September.
Carlos Gomez certainly has the potential to be a 30-30 guy. In reality, he could probably steal upwards of 80 bases if given the opportunity. His speed is tremendous and he could certainly cover some ground in centerfield. And of course, it is vital to remember that he will be just 22 years old throughout the 2008 season. He could contribute to the Twins in 2008, but he could be very good in 2010 in the new stadium.
Time will tell on this trade. The Twins have always been able to get no name prospects who turn into good players in the past. Better to deal him to the NL as well.
I’m also extremely pleased the Yankees didn’t get him. All the stuff I read about how the Yanks wont add Kennedy to the deal to get it done, and all the “Why should we trade? We’ll just get him as a free agent at years end” talk. So now the Yankees wont have him, probably ever. We’ll see if Hughes ends up being in Santana’s league or not.
http://www.baseballamerica.com/blog/prospects/?p=707
Guerra has an 89-94 mph fastball and a promising changeup and he’s only 18. But he also has a below-average breaking ball, has yet to pitch more than 90 innings in a season and while he has held his own, he hasn’t dominated.
Gomez had the best package of tools in the Mets system, but his bat is still extemely raw as evidenced by his career .273/.331/.384 averages in the minors.
Mulvey has an arsenal of four average pitches and throws strikes. He’s not overpowering and he’s most likely a No. 4 starter.
Since having Tommy John surgery in 2005, Humber hasn’t fully regained the stuff that made him the No. 3 overall pick in the 2004 draft. His curveball is his best pitch but his fastball now sits at 87-91 mph. He too projects as a No. 4 starter.
The Twins have traded Santana for two high-reward but also high-risk prospects, and two back-of-the-rotation starters. They didn’t get a prospect whose combination of ceiling and certainty approaches that of Hughes, whom the Yankees were willing to deal for Santana earlier in the winter. They didn’t get a package comparable to the ones the Red Sox reportedly offered earlier, fronted by either Jacoby Ellsbury and Jon Lester and also containing two solid prospects nearly ready for the majors: righty Justin Masterson and shortstop Jed Lowrie.
By this point, however, the Yankees were no longer willing to part with Hughes and the Red Sox may have reduced their offers as well. But even if that left the Mets as the only serious bidders, the Twins should have insisted on New York’s top prospect, outfielder Fernando Martinez.
Guerra = An 18 year old with 2 pitches and a no breaking ball
Gomez = A outfielder with no plate patience
Mulvey = A pitcher with a 90 mph fastball at the futures game & no + pitches
Humber = 87-91 mph fastball & TJ surgery
LOL
Hawk,
Chamberlain was a successful started in the minors. He can start.
Pitching will deterime the Yankee-Red Sox winner of the division. I wont say potentially the pennant cause the Yankee bats have made it a habit of hibernating during the playoffs.
After Beckett, I am not scared of the Red Sox rotation when the Yanks play the Sox. Dice-K and Schilling don’t scare me. Buchholz and Lester are as much questions as Hughes and Chamberlain and Kennedy. Wakefield is knuckle-baller and he’s been successful.
The bullpen is problematic and the Red Sox have an edge. I don’t know what the Yanks have other than Mariano..
Hitting - Yanks got a slight edge. A healthy and focused Manny and whatever Ellsbury is capable of can change that. Then again, if Giambi hits, he’s still capable of big power number.
These two teams are very close.
FIRE BILL SMITH
I agree with you. theres nothing wrong with trading santana to the mets, but at least you have to get Martinez and/or Pelfrey.
Lets hear it for the eternal pessimists. They were forced into this thing for both monetary reasons (obvious) and the fact that Santana wanted out. Once he began shooting his mouth off last summer, that should have told you his time in MN would come to an end. We save >13 mil this season, have cuddy and morneau locked up and have four guys who could potentially contribute now and later. Sure…you want more than potential for a guy of Santana’s caliber…but its over. I’m sad and glad to see him go. Nathan is probably the next guy to leave and perhaps this team can build and become more complete in order to really compete for a championship in the next few years.
Wondering where BC,lion, etc were tonight. Maybe too much foreign chatter? LaVelle should be happy that his blog is a national information hub on baseball.
Hey Wizard,… Tapani was a FA after 95, Guthrie after 96. Tap had one good year, 1998. Guthrie was good in 96, but not again until 2002 & 2003. Bad choice of remember when trades.
Its obvious that Bill smith overplayed his hand with the yanks and sox, I bet he would go back and do it all over again if he could.
huh?
i feel bad for bill smith, this trade will be his legacy.
And the trade was for 4 players, check it out………Cooms, Greg Hansell, Jose Parra, and a PTBNL……Chris Latham.
Jon-
Obviously you’re saying, “He would do it differently if he could do it again.”
Right?
The quotes below are from Lavelle’s new article posted about 40 minutes ago. (Assuming this is true, it means Bill Smith literally had no choice. He got the best he could. And remember, everyone (here and nationally) was saying he should stand up to the big boys and their offers would improve. Instead they went the other way. Had he taken one of those most people would have roasted him for that.)
“According to a person familiar with negotiations, Santana and his agent, Peter Greenberg, gave the Twins a Tuesday deadline to get a deal done or Santana would invoke his no-trade clause and remain with the Twins through the 2008 season. If that had happened, he would have left the team as a free agent at the end of the season, and the Twins would have received only two draft picks as compensation.
Faced with that ultimatum, the Twins late last week asked each of the three main suitors for Santana — the Mets, Yankees, and Red Sox — for its best offer.
The Mets offer included players deemed to have the greatest potential. The tradeoff: The two best prospects, Gomez and Guerra, might not be ready to help for a year or two.”
Not that any of them were more than a roster spot.
Jon,
I think the Red Sox-Yankees forced Bill Smith’s hands toward the Mets.
The Yanks never were comfortable giving up Hughes, including him for Kennedy reluctantly, and trading Melky left a hole in center. Maybe the Yanks would have done a Kennedy-Melky led deal, but the Santana financial price was high.
And the same with Boston. They like those young players - Lester and Ellsbury. And Lowrie is penciled in as the teams’s shortstop in 2009.
Smith playing one against the other unnerved Hank Steinbrenner, who in the end was sticking with his NO
met fans are dancin in the streets.
http://www.wfan.com/
the best sports radio station in the world!!!
Twins fans, thank you for the past few days of insightful and classy discussion. If you guys have any questions regarding the players you got I am more then willing to answer.
Jon - I’m sure he would do it differently. But no one on here would have taken those deals at the time either. I remember all the tough talk being posted.
Bill Smith’s legacy will be that he overcame a very tough first year that he had no control over (Torii and Johan), and crafted a plan that kept the Twins contenders for years.
For weeks now, LEN3 has been saying the Yanks were players - “keeping in contact” - while the rest of the baseball reporting establishment has been saying the Yanks are out.
Orher newspaper reports say the Yanks never made a final offer. I dont think LEN3 reported that part.
Metro - You’ve posted a lot over the past few days, and you’ve been interesting. I’d appreciate a short capsule of your view of these four guys.
And by the way, IF the Twins got “fleeced” to some extent, they didn’t get fleeced by Minaya, they got fleeced by Johan himself.
jon-if we fire BS,we have to fire the whole scouting dept.They had more imput into the doable prospect package,BS just made the phone call.
I am not going to throw BS under the bus. It’s ridiculous to think that you all could do a better job. I have faith in the Twins scouts because of what they’ve done in the past and will just cross my fingers that this pans out. But the way our division is looking the next couple of years are going to be nearly impossible anyway, so I say completely build for 2010. Just because we have a low payroll this season doesn’t mean we aren’t moving in a good direction. If we can put a winning team on the field in 2010 with a new stadium that could propel this team for years to come. All I want from this FO is for them to be doing everything they can to field the best team possible in 2010 and I believe they are doing a pretty good job of that.
Daddy Mack…the point was what we received in those trades for pitchers (Tapani and Guthrie) that were considered very valuable in their day. It was still for 3 guys still named “who” (unless you actually place value on Coomer, J. Parra, etc.) and a PTBNL. Same with trading a very in demand closer named Rick Aguilera for a “who” named Frankie Rodriguez. Sometimes we do just get nothing when trading for prospects. No way of knowing how this trade turns out, but it does seem like we should have got less risk and more talent in a trade for a pitcher of Santana’s promise
How about trading Nathan to the Cubs for Marmal (RP), center fielder Pie/Fukudome and maybe another prospect.
I find it hard to believe that the contract we offered was not enough. It has to be something else. Santana always seemed like a down to earth guy, and turning down a 20 million dollar a year contract just doesn’t sound like something he would do. He is what he is because of the twins and turning his back on the organization when they are trying to keep a core of young all-star players seems out of character from what I know. I hope we get some answers soon.
The Twins got what the market provided for Santana. A market never came about for the best pitcher in baseball - and it was the price in money, years and young players.
The best value would have come from the Angels - with the most major leagurs or major-league ready players to offer.
The Angels didn’t bite at the Santana golden apple.
Only two teams nibbled and one team took a chomp.
Wizard - It’s beginning to look like the Twins may have had little choice in the end. Per Lavelle’s latest article, Johan imposed a deadline of today. And it appears to be fact that the Yankees had withdrawn their Hughes offer, and several reports have said the Red Sox pulled back on their offers. If all that is true, Bill Smith literally had no other choice.
(And as I’ve said four times now, everyone was saying earlier, DON’T take those offers on the table at the winter meetings.)
If Ellsbury, Lowrie, or Masterson end up being stars, and none of these players the Twins got are in the major leagues in 3-4 years.
I hope that Bill Smith is fired, and black listed from Major League baseball.
Trading to the mets is terrible, not getting fernadeze or Pelfry in the deal…
I think Guerra could be something in 2010-2011, and Gomez may turn out to be a solid CF, but to not get the sure things in Lowrie and Ellsbury…
Coupled with my feelings that we got hosed on the Delmon Young deal. (Bonser, Slowey, and Dunesing would have been enough to get him, and if not big deal.
This is the reverse Hershall Walker trade, the Timberwolves Celtics trade, and this is a black eye for baseball, and a pathetic showing right now in my mind by the Twins.
I know for a fact I will not be purchasing season tickets, home opener tickets, and there’s a good chance I will not even bother going to a game in 2008 after this. I’ve never gone a season in the last 15 years without being to atleast 5 games.
Now I might not go for free.
Bill Smith you let Minnesota down today, and you hurt major league baseball as a sport.
One more terrible decision and I’ll be happy to toss you in with the idiot that runs the Vikings, and the Idiot that runs the Timberwolves, and say the HELL WITH ALL OF YOU!
Smith has set himself up to be hosed from now on. Who will ever take him seriously after this?
Imagine looking to deal with the Twins GM in a trade. The first thing you look at is how they do with their trades in the past. This is going to keep the Yankees and Red Sox from ever viewing Smith as a trading partner, it will set Smith up as someone you just have to keep waiting till he crumbles.
He didn’t get what he asked for from the Mets. He got what they wanted to give him. Prospects that are projecting to be at least 2 years away in many accounts. He is still left with holes in the lineup and rotation and is low on time to do anything to fill them.
Like it or not, Smith has shown himself to be incompetant, and the Twins fans are left with having to try to justify the value of this trade because the alternative is to give up.
Wizard,
I never meant to imply I was happy with this deal. I also was hoping for more…say F-Mart, Guerra, Pelfrey, Mulvey and Church. But I’m not ready to storm the castle with torches and pitchforks just yet. I’m willing to suspend judgment on this deal until we see a little more of these players, plus I don’t believe that every rumored offer was really offered.
Mainly I’m just sick of knee-jerk negativity and trash-talking East Coasters. Well-reasoned dissent/criticism I can accept.
Terry NO BALLS and 3 strikes Ryan
and Bill NO BRAINS and 2 strikes Smith
Sad Day - Read Lavelle’s latest article. He says that Johan decided he wanted a bigger stage, the highest contract, a more heavily Latin fan base, etc. Sad as it is to say, he turned his back on us. We didn’t turn our back on him.
Carlos Gomez- will guarantee that you guys get at least ONE major league regular. The guy has INSANE speed and is a MARVEL in CF, great arm, gets to everything. Great bunter, incredible on the basepaths. At worst I think he ends up being a 275 hitter with 15 homer power 40-50 steals and a GREAT glove in CF. Not real patient at the plate at all. Can look foolish facing a veteran pitcher because he is so aggressive.
Deolis Guerra- Throws 88-93 comfortably, ULTRA young, has hit 95 on the gun. PLUS PLUS changeup and great frame (6′6 over 200 pounds), curve is below average right now. The Mets have rushed him but have also limited his innings.
Kevin Mulvey- just won NJ minor league pitcher of the year. Projected 1st rounder by BA, fell to round 2, no plus pitches but 4 good ones… I like him a lot… potential #3 starter… real smart kid. Struck out Pujols on a 94 mph heater in ST, works 88-91 usually.
Philip “The Shark” Humber- Once sported the best curve in the entire 2004 draft. Had TJ surgery and stuff has not fully returned but still throws 88-91 with a borderline plus curve (pitch used to be elite) despite supposed diminished stock still was top 10 in the PCL in almost every category… off the charts intangibles, a total bulldog, stats skewed by a bad case of food poisoning which cost him 10-15 pounds.
Twins young pitching + Mets three young pitching prospects could = a great pitching staff in the new stadium. With the cost of pitching, this could turnout out to be one hell of a deal with free agency 6-8 years away.
Watch Nathan be traded next, Smith is sure to net something there, right? Maybe Carl Pavano?
BC - I respect your opinion and your passion, but please read Lavelle’s latest article. Bill Smith in the end had no choice.
And I recall you were one of those who during the winter meeting period was exhorting Smith to hold fast against the Yankees and Red Sox, that they would cave in the end. Unfortunately, what I’ve said all along about the contract situation being a huge part of the consideration proved even more true than I had thought.
If you want to blame someone blame Terry Ryan. He could have signed both Johan and Torii when it was economical to do so. And he could have traded Torii last year for a decent return. And he could have kept Luis Castillo and gotten a high draft pick instead of two really low level prospects.
In hindsight we should have taken the earlier deals. But I think it’s unfair to pillory Bill Smith for that. We all would have had his head had he taken a Yankee deal without Kennedy, without Tabata, without Jackson.
When people start talking about intangibles that is usually a nice of saying that there isn’t much up side but we don’t want to make you feel bad.
Metro - Thanks for the info. I had read earlier that the Twins like Humber better than Pelfrey. I was intrigued with Pelfrey, but I’ll obviously trust the Twins judgment over mine. Question: do you have any read on how likely Humber is to get his original curve back?
Fleeced - Unless you’re one of those people who doesn’t really care about facts, but just goes on uninformed judgment, please read Lavelle’s article. It appears Bill Smith had no choice. Johan imposed today as a deadline, and the Yankees and Red Sox pulled back their offers. Jim Souhan (never a fan of the Pohlads) also wrote an interesting column.
Fleeced, maybe I used the wrong word… the guy has the mindset of a guy who won’t give in. He has total confidence in his stuff and is a true gamer. His stuff is not poor by any means but at one point his curve was cartoonish and now its just good. His fb is somewhat straight but can go as high as 92-93
brovo Dennis-The Twins actually got fleeced by Carl Pohlad.He determines the budget,how much to pay draft choices etc.BS,TR before him, can be fired at any time.All of our angry should be directed at ownership.
lets look at it from the Twins veiwpoint. Santana was leaving MN regardless at the end of this year. So, does the front office take a 4 player prospect deal, or take the crappy 2 draft picks we would have gotten at end of year. Mind you, some of these prospects are ready to play within 2 years. If we take the 2 draft picks, we have to wait for what, 5 years for them to develop into a player.
I am not happy that Santana left, but at least they got the most they could for him!
jury is still out on how this will end up, but maybe worse case, we can deal these prospects for other prospects?
agree, dont sign another Ponson or White
Dennis, I honestly don’t know physically the status of Humber. I do know that it has been said the touch on the breaking ball is the last thing to come back after TJ surgery. Personally if you could somehow combine Humber and Pelfrey you would have a great pitcher. Pelfrey’s FB is a plus plus offered but his secondary pitches are in their infancy. Humber at worst will be a solid 4th starter barring any physical setbacks. Pelfrey honestly has better pure stuff but he lacks ANY sort of confidence on the mound.
Fleeced,
Don’t discount intangibles.
How many tools did Pete Rose have?
Delmon Young will make us forget about Bartlett and Garza in the first month of the season. Where did Garza get all that spit between pitchs anyhow? It was worth the trade just not having to watch that every fifth day.
tony oliva will teach gomez how to hit
Geno - You’re misplacing your anger, like everyone here seems to want to do. I don’t like selfish rich people who value life in terms of money either, but I still want to follow the facts. The fact is that Pohlad has budgeted 50-55% of revenue for salary for years, which is higher than MLB average. NOTHING HAS CHANGED. Bill Smith can do what he wants within that framework. HE decided to extend Morneau and Cuddyer. (Jim Polhad verified that.) HE could have signed Johan for $140-160M. But since he’s a bright guy he knew that was asinine. And then his leverage all went away when Johan imposed his deadline.
I’m all for blaming Carl when the facts support it, but they simply don’t in this case.
bc strictly baseball-I have followed this blog for information about the Johan trade scenarios.For being strictly baseball you talk about alot of none baseball issues.We have been subjected to your life story.I thought for awhile this was Ralph Edwards ”This is your life bc”.Why don’t you go write your novel and leave this blog alone.I’m not sure your angast will sell many books.Maybe you will be on the NY TIMES best sellers list.Then you will be a legend in your time instead of a legend in your own mind.
wat my friend emailed me. He’s a Phillies fan
Yo the fuking twins took the mets offer!!!!!!!! They should fire smith!!!!!!!!!! wooooow what a bad job by the twins and the mets got better but they still suck!!!!!!!!!!!!!
why can’t I post???
It wont let me post my comments… Only these short sentences.
Is it just me or do the Twins have about seven fourth starters?
BC,
Come on, the Twins are fine! They took a deal that was offered. IMO Gomez was the better choice over F-mart. I wish we had either Boston deal, but hey i’m not the GM. I’ll be a flex 40 ticket holder as long as they with let me, for I love Baseball, and I love Minnesota Twin baseball. Believe me when I say, we will survive. Win Twins!!!!!!
We’re gonna win Twins, were gonna score, were win Twins, watch that baseball sore. Root for the home run, start a hit parade, cheer for the Minnesota Twins today!!! I wish Johan the best of luck, and also that Gomez becomes a stud along with Guerra, Mulvey, and Humber. Go Twins!!! Remember the future is never bleak with Morneau, Mauer, Cuddyer, Kubel, Young, Liriano, Baker, Bonser, Slowey plus many, many more!! Go Twins!!!
JA - do you work for the Pohlads?
Beantown,
Kiss my ass you igrone fool. Boston is not king, they were a third place team (2006) before they PANICKED and overpaid for Lugo, Nancy Drew, and D-K of 4.5 era, or higher than Silva who most Twins people whated out of town. The Twins will always run a first class organization, which they have had for decades, yes decades, how long can the Boston, “We paid for the World Series”, Red Sux say that (2004). Did the Sux develop Beckett, Shill, Manny, Ortiz, Lowell, ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm no! so who the hell is this Theo the great! Good luck with 2008!
Liriano, the Baker, Boof monster, the Slow king, going to take the central and American league by storm. Liriano v. Beckett, G1, Baker v. Shill, G2, Boof v. D-k, G3. Looks like a Twikies sweep in 2008. The World Series next, the Mets go down! Those winning Twins!!!
Finally, the bungling remnants of Terry Ryan are behind us. Silva/Torii/Johan were on TR’s watch. Bill Smith, there’s a lot of haters right now but you did the best you could amid all the circumstances. This trade is NOT Bill Smiths legacy but end of TR’s.
Here’s hoping that Gomez is the starting CF this year. He’s had a taste of the majors, so run him out there!
Sad to see Santana go, but no player is going to spoil my love for the Twins and baseball, no matter how dysfunctional they are. Remember that baseball is the game that we all love, step back from the contracts for one minute and remember that.
Dave,
No, I’m 37 years old and have been following baseball closly for decades. The deal today might not bring alot of fire to the imediadiate fan base but is a good long run deal. Gomez is not a perfect prospect, but he already processes 4 great tools playing at the age of 21. By the time he reaches the Twins in 2010, he will be a well round stud of center fielder. The other three will be fine, time will tell. First react is always bad. I was wishing for a Lester, Lowrie, Masterson, Crisp deal all along, but hey I’m not the Gm, nor do I have the scouts telling me the true value of these players being mentioned. For all you know, the Twins just fleeced the Mets. Have you seen Guerra pitch, or how about Mulvey, Humber??? I din’t think so, So give it time.
At a glance it makes you wonder w t f happened?? . . . But if you look at it, there is a good possibility that Gomez becomes better than Ellsbury and Guerra becomes better than Hughes. . . Sure you would expect to get a name like Reyes or Wright for Santana, but who knows, this may work out in the end.
For the people for do not know scouting reports. Delmon Young was the biggest move of the off season by any team. He is the hammer in he lineup the Twins have been waiting for. They do have strong pitching, Baker, Liriano, Boof, Slowey, along with many other highly rated prospects like Blackburn, Perkins, Duensing, Swarzak, and Manship, just to name a few. Also, do not forget a pen of Neshak, Guerrier, Crain, Reyes, and of course Nathan. Ther is plenty to look forward to, Win Twins!!
im a mets fan and i hate the yankees .i wish deal of santana dont happen,and mets can keep and develop our top prospects.
ex-yankee willie randolph ( cant even manage a little league team!!!) will be fire this season 2008 and with new manager in 20009 and 2010 we could see really a team with gomez ( better than beltran and milledge , and milledge will be a all star !!), deoliss guerra ( better than p. martinez ), mulvey ( the next billy wagner ),and humburg (best curveball since barry zitos) .
so i really hope deal dont happen and we retain our young talent so we can beat yankees like a step son.
my mets were blessed with a farm of superstars thats why twins scouts and managers rejected red sox and clown yankees offers ( both teams offered all farm and twins scouts said , no!!! , i bet you twinki fans didnt know that ??
if this trade goes tru twins emerge as a superpower within 2 years.
i hope minaya tries to pull a fast one on santana so deal goes south.
and believe me you, twin fans ,yankee prospects are alwayz hyped beacuse they buy the eastcoast reporters ,you even see how the umpires are always like they are blind and give yankees the call.
common , no you common.
I had to write and vent about the Twins’ trade of Santana. I understand that the financial structure of baseball is broken beyond repair and that it was necessary to deal Santana. However, I don’t believe it was necessary to trade him for NOTHING!!! Randy Moss, Kevin Garnett, and now Johan Santana. Minnesota sports teams are minor league franchises, there only to stock the talent pool of the good teams that have money.
Imagine Phil Hughes as the #1 starter (or #2 if Liriano comes back 100%) and Melky Cabrera leading off and playing center field. Imagine Jacoby Ellsbury leading off and playing center field (not to mention the two hot prospects the Red Sox were prepared to give up) or even Coco Crisp leading off and playing center field and John Lester as the #2 starter.
Instead the Twins get a young center fielder (Gomez) who can’t hit a lick (.232 last year), two Boof Bonser-type pitchers (Humber and Mulvey), and a very young pitcher (Garcia) who had a 4.01 ERA in low A ball last year. All four players are considered merely average talent and none of them is considered a “can’t miss” player. Meanwhile, the Twins were not able to get either the hotshot young AAA center fielder (Fernando Martinez) or the most promising pitching prospect (Mike Pelfry) included in the deal.
Smith showed his inexperience and panicked because he was given a deadline by Santana to make the trade. Santana’s agent also represents Reyes (Mets’ SS). Can we assume that the “secret deadline” was not a secret to the Mets (and probably the other teams for that matter) and that’s why the Twins got suckered? The Morneau and Cuddyer signings were obviously for PR, to soften the fall-out from this awful trade. Why must they do EVERYTHING on the cheap?!
The Royals must be licking their chops. They should be able to pass the (probably 70-92 if they’re lucky) Twins and move into fourth place in the AL Central. It is not news that the Pohlads are cheap. But is it necessary to just GIVE AWAY your best players (Torii Hunter, Johan Santana, and Joe Nathan- I’m sure it will be just a matter of days for Nathan)?! It’s going to be a long summer and a long 2009, 2010 (new stadium of not), 2011…
Bottom line- you blew it big time. Ian Kennedy is better than anyone you got back! I agree that Joba is the no 1 prospect in baseball but Hughes is up there (BA last year had him at #1) - he almost had a no hitter in May b4 he hurt his leg was great down the stretch and in the playoffs. Melky for now is an intangible player who everyone loves- one of the best arms in bb, always smiling, anda penchant for clutch hits and being in every rally. Whoever says he is a bad 4th otfielder i ask you to watch him and follow his stats this year- 20hrs, 12+ putouts and average 280 are very attainable. How twins ever turned down this package (=accesory 3 and 4s mentioned were solid pitching prospects at least better than yo got back already. Great non deal for yanks- thanks cashman. twins fleeced!
goyanks,
that is your opinion. Joba, Kennedy, Hughes i’m not sold. I feel the Twins did fine. See you in the dome in the end of May. hopefully Joba, Hughes, and Kennedy will still be in the rotation so the Twin can sweep them with Liriano, Baker, and Boof.
I think Brad Radke is going to come out of retirement to help anchor this rotation with some veteran presence . . . It will be a good year.
Say Goodbye to Nathan, there won’t be any save situations for him in 08 thru 2010.
Now we understand why the Twins locked up Cuddyer and Morneau. No players would want to sign with the them after seeing the garbage they got for Santana. Johan saw it coming when they let Castillo go at the trade deadline. I don’t blame him for wanting to go to a team that wants to win.
2008 World Series: Angels vs Mets.
2009 World Series: Twins vs Mets.
I wonder what it would take to get Elsburry from the Sox now. Does anyone think that a package of some of our pitching prospects be enough?
Or will they sign Lofton? I hope that they can do something soon, since as we all know, spring training is coming very soon.
koki, the Mets flat out robbed the Twins. Mets gave them a bunch of WHO’S. And you got JOHAN..You’ll be happy after you see him dominate in the second half. We’ll be going yep we wish we still had Johan
Good morning guys…….
Chance to “sleep” on the deal overnight.
New thoughts:
1) People say Gomez can’t hit a breaking pitch. Well….at 22yr Hunter was still playing 95% of his time in the minors. Gomez’s number in the minors and Hunter’s are not that much different except Gomez has more speed and Hunter had a little more power. Up through last year, Hunter looked terrible with curveballs and sliders on the outer half the plate. Swing and a miss, or a grounder to second. Gomez might make us forget Hunter a lot faster than any other prospect offered. Yes, even Ellsbury.
2) The Twins should have gotten Ryan Church out of the deal. Let the Mets keep Humber and Mulvey…we have plenty of #4s & #5 in the minors. Get Church and use him as DH and/or occasional OF’er. His numbers are much better overall than Monroe plus he’s $3mil less. So Church would have been a younger upgrade over Monroe plus the extra money could be used to find one more FA for 2008.
Me Too,
Nothing that the twins have now can get Ellsbury. Ellsbury is staying with the Red Sox for years to come. I can’t wait to see him playing. Many people that said he is overrated are going to see that they were wrong big time.
Big factor here….Ellsbury was PRAYING that he would NOT be traded to Minnesota. What would you rather do…play CF helping the World Champions repeat OR play for the Twinks? MLB is MLB but attitude and mental frame of mind goes a long way. Gomez should be pretty happy coming to Minnesota. We’ll help him become a star.
Billy Smith screwed the pooch on this one. He waited and waited and waited….gambling on getting a better deal. His gamble did not pay off and now the Twins are much worse off for his huge error in calculation. At least Pohlad is happy, now he significantly lowers his payroll. Most opinions are that at best 2 of these players will make the big leagues, and neither will be the star Santana is. The more I think about this trade, the more it appears to be a Salary Dump and another of many the Twins make to save money. I am actually surprised the Twins didn’t ask the Mets to throw cash in the deal. That really would have put a smile on Pohlad’s face.
This is from the minors for Gomez.
Signed with the New York Mets as an international free agent in July 2002.
Spent the entire season with Double-A Binghamton, hitting .281 with seven homers, 48 RBIsand 41 steals in 50 attempts in 120 games. Tied for second in the Eastern League in stolen bases. … Batted .406 in July. … Hit safely in 28 of 29 games from July 6-Aug. 6, batting .427 (47-for-110). … Hit safety in 18 straight games from July 6-25, batting .441 (30-for-68) over that span. Was hitting .225 at the start of his streak, which raised his average 50 points. … Came off the disabled list on June 15. … Placed on the DL on June 2, retroactive to May 31, with a back strain. … Went 2-for-3 with a homer and a game-tying two-run double on May 7 against New Hampshire. … Missed one game after suffering a left knee strain on May 3 at Akron in an outfield collision with second baseman J.E. Cruz. … Broke out of an 0-for-18 slump with an infield single on April 28 at Erie. … Went 3-for-5 with a double on April 19 at New Hampshire. … Named the third-best prospect, fastest base runner and best outfield arm in the Mets’ organization by Baseball America.
Only time will tell if the Santana trade was a good deal. You can NEVER replace outstanding left handed pitching. Maybe in three years the trade will bring benefits to the Twins, but for the time being, they have suffered a tremendous loss. A losing season will probably result. The team will have to find a second left handed starting pitcher to put in the rotation with Liriano. Hopefully Perkins or Duensing or both will be effective enough to make the rotation respectable.
This one is for Guerra.
Split his first professional season between Class A Hagerstown and Class A Advanced St. Lucie. … Went 6-7 with a 2.20 ERA in 17 starts with Hagerstown. … Allowed one run on five hits and two walks with 11 strikeouts over 5 2/3 innings on Aug. 6 vs. Greenville. … Went 1-1 with a 6.14 ERA in two starts with St. Lucie.
Mulvey
Went 0-1 with a 1.35 ERA in three starts with Double-A Binghamton, allowing 10 hits and five walks with 10 strikeouts over 13 1/3 innings. … Went deeper into the game in each of his three starts. … Did not allow an earned run in his last two Eastern league starts (10 1/3 innings). … First pro decision was a complete-game loss on Sept. 4 at Connecticut. … Called up to Binghamton on Aug. 20, a day after making his only start for the Gulf Coast League Mets.
Hosed again! This is beyond brutal! A new ballpark on the way and it’s the same old song. Bend over and grab your ankles, Twins fans! Best pitcher in the game is worth four maybes and no impact player. BRILLIANT! Castillo gone, Hunter gone, now Santana with Nathan soon to follow. Not to worry, we’ll fill in the blanks with our usual array of Ortizs and Ponsons. Note to Smith - I’ve got some swampland you might be interested in . . .
Pohlad the penny pincher has won again! You can expect the organization to ramp up its B.S.ing of the fans about the team’s prospects for 2008. But don’t expect any pennants for the Twins in the future. The penny pincher is only interested in keeping the fans interested, not building a complete winning team to win a pennant.
Humber
His season came to an end on July 19 when he underwent reconstructive surgery on his right elbow. Dr. James Andrews repaired the ulnar collateral ligament in Birmingham, Ala. … Started the year with Class A Advanced St. Lucie of the Florida State League and was promoted to Double-A Binghamton of the Eastern League on July 11. … Started that night against Norwich and suffered the loss, leaving the game after 4.0 innings due to discomfort in his elbow. … Surgery followed eight days later. … Made his first professional start, April 7 at St. Lucie against Vero Beach. Took the loss, going 5.0 innings with four hits, one run, no walks and six strikeouts. … Had a no-decision against Brevard County in his next outing. In 5.0 innings, he allowed no runs on one hit with one walk and two strikeouts. … Gained his first victory of the year vs. Jupiter on June 11. Went 7.0 innings and permitted four hits and one unearned run with one walk and five strikeouts. … Turned back Daytona on June 24 for his second victory. Went 7.0 innings again and gave one run on three hits with no walks and 10 strikeouts. … Had 65 strikeouts in 70.1 innings at St. Lucie.
Named First Team All-America by the National Collegiate Baseball Writers Association, USA Today Sports Weekly, Collegiate Baseball Magazine and Collegeiate BaseballInsider.com and Second Team by Baseball America. … Earned First Team All-Western Athletic Conference honors. … Was a national semifinalist for the Golden Spikes Award, Roger Clemens Award and Dick Howser Trophy. … Led Rice in wins (13) and strikeouts (154). … Struck out a school-record 17 batters vs. Hawaii on March 17. Was honored as the National Pitcher of the Week by Collegiate Baseball Magazine for his efforts. … Tossed a complete game, scattering five hits and striking out four in a 14-2 win over Stanford in the NCAA championship game. … It was the Owls’ first national championship in baseball.
Named First Team All-Western Athletic Conference. … Was 11-3 with a 3.30 ERA in 18 games. … In 128.0 innings, he yielded 102 hits and 54 runs (47 earned) with 39 walks and 138 strikeouts. … Won 17 consecutive decisions at Rice before he lost on April 11 at Fresno State.
Named National Freshman Player of the Year by Collegiate Baseball. … Was honored as a Second Team All-America by Collegiate Baseball and Baseball America, and Third Team All-America by Baseball Weekly. … Also received First Team All-Western Athletic Conference honors and WAC Freshman of the Year. … Went 11-1 with a 2.77 ERA in 18 appearances. In 110.2 innings, he allowed 90 hits and 45 runs (34 earned) with 43 walks and 130 strikeouts. … Led the WAC in strikeouts.
The only thing I can hope for is that Santana really does have a tell that teams are starting to pick up on and that is why he was hit around some much last year. My guess is that is only going to get worse and the Twins realized that and thats why they didn’t offer him the contract he wanted.
I will bet that Santana will start to decline the next few years because teams have figured him out…then again he will be in the weak NL…and he will be New York so maybe he can hang out with Clemen’s people and take steriods, but then he won’t be good until he is 40!
I think one thing we can take out of this is that the Twins were not very impressed with Jed Lowrie.
He was always viewed as an average fielder, but his sub-mendoza line in the Arizona Fall League might have given the Twins pause on his hitting as well.
Also, they apparently viewed Jacoby Ellsbury’s sub average arm as a significant flaw. The Twins have a history of overvaluing defense, the only way they could have viewed Gomez as near the quality of prospect as Ellsbury is if they placed a high value on defense.
Look at the positives of this trade. No one thought the AJ trade to the Giants would turn out. Nathan, Liriano and Bonsor isn’t a bad deal. Most people are down because they have no clue who these players are and believe the Twins needed some immediate help. This team needs to be good when they open the new ball park or it’ll be like playing in Pittsburgh. The potential of the players we’re going to acquire could be something like this:
Gomez = Kenny Lofton
Humber = Carlos Silva
Mulvey = Brad Radke
Guerra = C.C. Sabathia
Christina- interesting… I have been low on Humber, but it often takes pitchers a year to regain form after TJ surgery.
He might stay average, but he has a chance to to be ok.
I’m having a memory failure.
Has anyone signed Dallas McPherson?
If not, I think he would be worth a flyer.
If his back problem subsides, and he regains his 2004 minor league form (.316, 40-126) he could be a great, cheap pickup at 3b.
We’ve got a couple bucks in the bank now.
McPherson hasn’t signed with anyone. The Marlins were talking to his agent earlier this month but nothing has been worked out.
I think the Twins will sign a veteran SP now because we have so many young guys in our rotation… and we have a little cash. Here are the options:
Tony Armas Jr. (30)
Kris Benson (32)
Shawn Chacon (30)
Roger Clemens (45)
Bartolo Colon (35)
Josh Fogg (31)
Freddy Garcia (32) - Type B
Livan Hernandez (33) - Type B
Byung-Hyun Kim (29)
Kyle Lohse (29)
Rodrigo Lopez (32)
Mike Maroth (30)
Eric Milton (32)
Tomo Ohka (32)
Russ Ortiz (34)
Odalis Perez (31)
John Thomson (34)
Steve Trachsel (37)
Jeff Weaver (31)
David Wells (45)
Any interest?
I guess if they could get Garcia, Hernandez, Fogg or Weaver for a one year deal, I would be ok with that. Maybe a flier on Mike Maroth?
i would like to encourage all everyone to boycott the twins this season. carl & sons are being given a new stadium thanks to all of the taxpayers of MN and this is how we are repaid. sell the team if you are uncapable of running a major league organization.
Boomer, mentioning the Castillo trade (again) qualifies as a failed argument.
Castillo was slowing, aging, and hurting. He was not in the Twins 08 plans and was not even going to be worth draft picks when he left.
The Twins were not contending with him in the lineup, and felt (at the moment) that Casilla was ready to step in full time.
So they traded him while he had ANY value. And if you look over in Metsville there’s a bit of a squabble over them signing him to another contract. So it’s not like they’re popping corks over “stealing Luis from those Twins”.
Was Casilla actually ready to step in? Unfortunately not. But the idea was to trade a player while he still had value and use the remaining games to give Casilla as much of a chance to prove himself as he could (what better time to try out some rookies than when you’re out of contention?).
It’s too bad Casilla was unable to step up and accept his new found starter position.
RyanW, I’d be curious in how Garcia would do under Anderson’s watchful eye. I lost track of him when he left Chicago, but he was amazing.
And he and Johan paired up for one of the best pitched games I have ever seen back in 05.
Poor Minnesota Twins,
This is what happens when you think too much. “He who hesitates is lost”.
Hughes, Cabrera, Marquez plus prospect, and you do not take it? As for out of the AL for Santana, that is a laughable excuse to take 4 minor leaguers. It really is true, that the boondocks are full of rubes.
Lets face it the Morneau and Cuddyer signings were cover so they could trade Santana. They lost their chance I believe to sign both Santana and Hunter when they made no in season moves the last few years that might have gotten them to the World Series. Both decided that the opportunity to win was greater elsewhere. I’m not sure either would have signed for even more money then the Twins offered. Have to hope for the best with the prospects Twins scouts have done well in these type of trades in the past
Sane-
McPherson won’t happen. Smith made the decision to sign Lamb thus you won’t see any more money thrown at 3B this year.
FA’s…..
If Benson would take $3mil, he might be a veteran replacement for Silva. Innings eater who will give up 3 runs over 7 innings. Then if Liriano can give us 14-16 wins, we at least close to last year’s rotation. A lot of ifs..
Garcia & Colon are tempting. Big upside and big downside for big money???
A lot of people are pointing out other trades the Twins made and saying that they turned out well. None of those turned were for the best pitcher of the century. Even if Santan busts and two of the (no-name) players turn to All-Starts, don’t forget ol’ Billy took what was the fourth best offer made. The only upside is he didn’t go to the Yankees. On the whole, though, the first trade of the new regieme can’t be graded any higher than a D. Not if logic is applied, it can’t.
Hawk,
I think infield IS where the money will be spent. We have a ton of pitchers and OF.
McPherson would be a cheap alternative at 3b and if he regains his pop, Lamb could be traded.
Lamb is certainly not a proven everyday MLB 3B. (especially defensively)
Sane-
IMO…Smith will not spend any more money at 3B this year. Next year, depending on how Lamb performs? Maybe.
You are correct, we need to spend a little more on IF help. I have no idea why the Twinks didn’t go after more IF prospects in any Santana deals. We have no help in the minors any time soon.
Still think Church would have been a “cheap alternative” to Monroe.
Still would like to have an explanation why our hometown paper was sleeping for 30 minutes while a major event goes down. See yesterday’s post below:
Hawk says:
January 29th, 2008 at 3:54 pm
USA Today posts the Santana story at 3:12pm.
Average Joe posts the Santana story on this blog at 3:14pm
Some guy named Stan Schmidt posts the “unconfirmed” story on the StarTribune website at 3:40pm???
LaVelle….that’s why everyone was on this blog! Everyone knew it would be posted here way before it hit the Trib.
Twins should make a call on Bedard… I know very unlikely, but worth a call. With the finding of Adam Jones’ degenerative hip disorder, that M’s deal could fall through.
Realistically, BS needs to trade some pitching prospects for some hitting prospects right quick!
You guys see this? This would have been worse than the Mets trade.
“The Twins called the Yankees and admitted surrender: Phil Hughes was no longer
a prerequisite…Instead, the Twins asked for Ian Kennedy, Melky Cabrera and a
top prospect. Would the Yankees still be interested? The Yankees considered the
idea, but only briefly and not seriously…The Twins had waited too long…The
Red Sox, in lock step with the Yankees, had essentially backed out, too…That
left the Mets, who after hearing from Smith didn’t allow themselves to be
bluffed.”
I think these guys, at least numbers wise, are very unimpressive. Gomez might be a great centerfielder, but he carries a weak bat(certainly not the sort of power numbers you need for centerfield.) Humber is another Tommy John case, who knows if he can ever reach the majors-he’s 25 and yet to make it to the bigs. Mulvey is nothing, and never will be. Guerra, for me, has the most upside. Put him through our Pitching coaches for a few years, and we might, might, have something. But the fact is, we got hosed. We will never see the likes of Johan again(since 2003, leads the Majors in wins, ERA, and strikeouts-simply put, best pitcher in the game.) And all we get are a bunch of maybe’s, not even one proven Major Leaguer. It’s a sad day to be a Twins fan-my favorite athlete in all of sports has left town(leaving me with a Moss, Garnett, and Santana jersey in my closet), and now we have a Pitching staff with a bunch of question marks. I don’t want to see that staff against the Tigers and Indians(but of course I’ll watch-just won’t be expecting much).
As a lifelong Twins fan, sad to say it, but I’ve become used to these deals and was surprised Torii got to walk away without being dealt. I like Gomez, the others who knows, we have to wait and see.
This deal hurts a lot more than Torii leaving though. I doubt if I’ll ever get to see a better pitcher in a Twins uniform.
Salary Dump…..now let’s see what additional moves Mr. Foreclosure makes or if he just pockets the additional savings.
Everyone could sugar coat it asll you want, The Twins overplayed the hand and got an average speedster as the focal point of the trade. They could have had Hughes, or Ellsbury if they didn’t get greedy. Anyone says the Twins did great, really aren’t reading the scouting reports on these kids. The Twins loose again, thanks to an idiot of an owner. Evryone always point to the Steinbrenner , but at least they place it back in their team. THE METS got the better end. Let’s not kid ourselves, anything else is wishful thinking. The Twins got greedy and are rightfully paying the price. The only good thing, AND THE ONLY GOOD THING, is he went to the NL. Even if he went to the Yanks or Sox at least the return value would have been better. LENIII you can sugar coat this anyway you like but the table turned on Billy Boy! Now all the Twins fans have now is hope. “We hope they turn out well” Not even a number one prospect in return. What a joke.
I’m a Sox fan who had been checking in on these boards when rumors were hot and heavy and thought I’d come back to see what you all thought of the trade.
I can’t say that I know much about these prospects, but from reports I was thinking you might get F-Mart thrown in.
In any case, how soon do you think will the Twins be able to compete? Doesn’t seem like this year is realistic, but I’m wondering if 2009 is even on the radar with the age and level of the kids you got.
We are all pretty relieved here in Boston and happy with our team as it stands. One thing I will say, though, is that the deal is not done yet and it will be really interesting to me to see how the negotiations go.
Good luck with your high risk/high reward strategy and bringing these guys along as quickly as possible.
while it’s easy to blame smith for not getting enough i’ll reserve my bitching for terry ryan for letting it get to this point. he could have tied all 4 of these guys up (including morneau for a lot less than 80m) last year but decided to low ball these guys. santana wasn’t going to sign with the twins he was on his way out the door last fall and they could have offered 200m he’d have turned it down. i’m hoping smith and his scouts know more about these players than the blogger experts here who have probably never seen any of them play. now we’ll find out if they are serious about giving us a world series type team or just about making money. draft the best players no matter the cost, keep the good young players you develope and spend the money to pick up the missing players to help win. to this point in recent history they haven’t done any of these. cuddy and morneau are a start but it will take some time to fix tr’s screw ups. if they don’t the new stadium will have a lot of empty seats.
why did Smithers take the worst deal. oh wait fat sweaty bastard waited to long and got piped. he actually waited so long he got rug burn on his knee’s
come see my new ballpark not my loser team. you hosed me for the last time cheap stingy ebineezer pohlad. I would have been happier had you contracted them then dangle stingy contracts around and lose good players. pocket lint contract pohlad.
The problem with evaluating the trade is that Santana is a unique talent, someone who has a chance at being a HOF. We traded for potential. The only way the trade works out for the Twins is if one of these guys turns into a perrennial All Star. Santana is a difference-maker, solind major leaugers do not replace a difference-maker. But really, since ownership would not pay for Santana, what choice did Mr. Smith have? At least he got something better than 2 draft picks.
Erik T,
There aren’t many centerfielders who put up great power numbers. If you’re looking for a power hitting center fielder, there are only a few in the majors. Besides, gomez just turned 22…most power hitters don’t develop power until much later. I’d guess that humber will be back in the majors…after all he’s already been there. Mulvey isn’t johan, but I’d hardly say he’s nothing. He’s almost a brian bannister clone. You hit it on the head with guerra though…tons of upside. I just don’t think that with santana’s contract situation that Bill Smith could have gotten any more for him. I think the sox and yanks were perfectly content to wait until next winter to take a shot at him.
For once, the Bosox and Yanks are building their teams with youth from within the organization instead of “buying” their team. Novel idea. Who would have ever thought of it? Small market teams have been doing it for years. Maybe Cashman and Theo have learned something from the “little” guys?
It appears that greed got the best of new Twins GM Bill Smith. Had Terry Ryan been the one to make the deal, I would be a little less worried about the return. I guess we’ll have to take the wait-and-see approach, but it appears that the Twins settled for a weaker offering for Johan Santana.
The Red Sox and the Yankees both offered packages that would give the Twins immediate help. The Red Sox were willing to part ways with Jon Lester or Jacoby Ellsbury. The Twins wanted both of them. The Yankees offered Melky Cabrera and Phil Hughes. The Twins misread the value of their cards though in this high stakes game of poker. They failed to realize that in addition to trading key pieces, either team would have to fork over a ton of dough to sign the ace. That lessened the value of Santana. Even the Mets had better offers on the table than the Carlos Gomez, Phil Humber, Kevin Mulvey and Deolis Guerra package they settled for. Minnesota had pie in the sky aspirations thinking they could net Jose Reyes for Santana. It was this misjudgement that let the better deals get away. How they could trade away Johan without getting top prospect Fernando Martinez is beyond me.
The last time the Twins dealt a Cy Young winner (Frank Viola) to the Mets it worked out quite well. They landed Rick Aguilera and Kevin Tapani. We’ll see if they can strike gold again. I’m just not confident as this appears to continue the string of blunders made by the Twins. Letting Torii Hunter go without any return is unforgivable. Yes, he priced himself out of their market, but how did they not see it coming? He basically said “get what you can for me”. Yeah, it was nice that they signed Justin Morneau and Michael Cuddyer to long-term deals, but if they signed them last year they would have saved themselves $20-$30 million. Add that to the $45 million they offered Hunter, and maybe you don’t lose the face of your franchise. Either that or add it to the money you’re pitching to the best pitcher in baseball. Maybe he doesn’t walk. Then there’s the greed that let better deals get away for Johan. Small market teams can’t afford to make these blunders.
Three times in the past year the Twins have held their cards too long. Hunter. Morneau/Cuddyer. Santana. Sometimes you’ve got to know when to fold them and do what’s best for your team. Somebody should put Bill Smith in touch with Kenny Rogers.
–
Ryan Lester
lesterslegends.com
Pohlad is evil. he does not pay up to par or otherwise known as market value. He never has and never will and until that time the twins will never ever ever again win a discounted world series. Pohlad Joe Torre’d us giving offers he knows are not up to market value just to try to look good but he knows the players will never take the offer. I wish Morneau would have done the smart thing and gone somewhere else and taken more $$$ then the stingy Twins offered
You would not hear me complaining if the deal was
Gomez/Guerra/Pelfry/Heilman/Mulvey OR
Gomez/Guerra/Pelfry/Mulvey/Humber
The unfortunite thing is that the Twins did not ask for Pelfry he has a chance to be a top 3 starter, but the Twins did not demand him we have plenty of Mulveys but not a lot of Pelfry’s.
Some thoughts:
1) Their hands became tied. Santana got impatient and gave the Twins a deadline of yesterday to make the trade or he was invoking his NTC for the year;
2) I would love to know if this was a change in position, or whether the Twins knew of that deadline ahead of time. I am inclined to believe they did not.
3) The Twins were NOT going to re-sign Santana, unless it was on their terms for a max of 5 years. IMO, the major reason for this is because they had a front-row seat for the fact that Santana was SLIPPING the last 1.5 seasons. He had lost about 3 mph on his fastball, and he did not throw a slider the entire last half of the season.
If 1-3 above are correct, you can certainly understand why competent Twins FO people ended up with the trade they did.
SteveV
50 cents on the dollar
I’m sure the twins asked for him…they might have even gotten him if they didn’t wait so long to pull the trigger.
It’s amazing how people think this whole ordeal was as simple as giving Santana the money that he wanted. That was part of it yes, but the bottom line is that Santana didn’t want to be in Minnesota anymore, he wanted to be with an East Coast marquee team. Even if the Twins had given Santana a 6 year extension, (which NEVER was going to happen by the way) why would any fan want a player on their team who didn’t want to be there? Even with a $150 million contract, Santana still would not have been thrilled to be in Minnesota, no matter what he would have said publicly. That’s all there is to it.
LaVelle has officially become the propaganda arm of the Twins. Parroting whatever they tell him too…
“High ranking officials say that the Yanks are still in it…”
“The RedSox have not reduced their offer…”
Now we are hearing that the Twins had to do it because of a Tuesday deadline…
LaVelle, since you are doing the Twins a service via your Spin Doctoring why did they not give you the lead that the trade was done.
Doesn’t that piss you off? I realize it is part of the job, but the Twins could have thrown you a bone. How did USA Today scoop the story?
Can we please have your unbiased opinion on the trade? DO you think that this package is better that Hughes, Cabrera, Marquez, Hilligoss? What about the earlier Boson deal that evaporated?
This may end up being a good trade, but what about all of the value that ‘could have been’ if the trade happened before Hank’s “fake” deadline?
we should have traded him for to mlb starters that we could have paid 10-12 mill each
get over it, he wanted to be a Met
i just wish BS would bend over again so we can plow him for Nathan
Mets give:
Heilman
Church
Twins give:
Nathan
Twins give Mauer, Morneau, and Cuddy and the yankees give melky cabrera and a player to be named later
rpb-
Good post. LaVelle should be upset at being “used”. I for one, believed LaVelle over the East Coast rumors. Now, I find out LaVelle’s info was “Smith Spin” and the East Coast rumors were true.
time to grade our farm?
lets try…
tyler robertson b+
delois guerra b+
carlos gomez b+
nick blackburn b+
joe benson b+
phil humber b+ (he may become an ace like he was supposed to be or he may be a bust just gotta wait to see…)
mulvey b-b+ (depends on how this year goes…)
anthony swarzak b
ben revere b
jason pridie b
you know…. i think thats one of the best farms in the majors… dont have any a prospect (yet) they may become a prospects though we will see….
SantanaMet57-
Sad thing about your Nathan deal….. the Twinks could have rec’d both back in December w/o giving up Nathan.
I will come on here and admit I was WRONG i said all along they were not gonna trade him, but they did. I was wrong guys. I said i would come on and admit it if it happened and I did
Any chance the Twins can get Bedard now? I know it’s not likely, but they still have spending money.
The Sox and Yanks did not want and will not get a shot at Santana.
$160 million shots can easily be passed on.
It appears the hardcore baseball fans and experts agree the trade was necessary, while the casual fans are crying about it. Stop getting attached to players, this is major league baseball. Santana did not want to play for the Twins; he was not attached to the Twin Cities in any way. He wanted to get paid. Now the Twins will have room in their payroll for the next 6 years. If Santana was on the books for $150 million, the team would have never gotten better.
sorry forgot about ramos.. put him with the other b+ prospects
Bedard would cost the Twins about 2x as much as they sold Johan for. Start with Gomez and Guerra. Then add Robertson, blackburn $ swarzak
Shawn,
I respect that, I think Sane should do the same.
I just hope if Johan’s time comes for the HoF that he goes in as a Twin. Becaues no matter where he ends up in the twilight years, he’ll hopefully remember who plucked him out of the minors and put him on the big stage.
i have to say how bad baseball has become.. we offered 5 year 100 mil!!!! and he wouldnt take it…. thats just selfish.. its sad that most teams cant keep their ace when hes 28… how sad…
Hawk
Your probably right but people wanna know if this is a fire sale or just Santana
Why would the Met’s want Nathan when the already have Wagner?
Too much whining on this blog. The Twins weren’t going to win this season anyway even with Santana. If LA, Seattle, or anyone else wanted Santana they would have stepped up and made an offer, they didn’t. The Twins got more for Santana than they did for Hunter. Get over it and move on.
Shaitan about bedard hahahahahahahashahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahhahaahahahahahhahahahhahaahahahahahahahahahahaahha no not if pohlad still owns the cheap a_ _ non competetive twins. Remember 50 cents on the dollar
This shows the economic problems baseball has compared to football and basketball. In those two sports teams are almost always able to financially hold on to their top players. Look at what the T-Wolves paid Garnett. It also greatly tied the Twins hands in trying to trade Santana. There were only 3 or 4 teams that could afford his salary demands greatly limiting the Twin’s options. If teams aren’t able to keep their star players I don’t think baseball can expect fans to keep interest. They may be killing the golden goose no matter what they say. A salary cap is definetely needed.
La Velle
So, is it time for the Joe Nathan Rumors to start Flying??
I am guessing Trade Deadline.
T yeah he should go in as a Twin to the HOF. NOT!!!!!!! What will he say those were the frugal years
Santana57,
I take full responsibility for all my past mistakes.
Which one are we talking about now?
Feeling down about it, but things could change.
We still have a major league team and it will be fun to watch how all this unfolds.
I guess we’re going to have to be more patient for a while though.
After all we have been use to a high level most of the last few years.
Without a salary cap, a market like ours could not be expected to stay at a peak level every year like the “big bad Yanks, Red Sox and maybe Mets now” They’ve got the population/fan base and the $$$.
But thats one of the things that makes it fun, to knock off the big boys. David vs Goliath.
Thank goodness he’s in the national league. I wish him great success, except for the 7th game of the world series against us. [someday]
HAVE FUN !!! GO TWINS !!!
I suncerely
Nathan trade rumors time!!!
DS,
we may have 8th inning needs and im assuming you guys wont pay him either.
LARTWINFAN it will be fun to watch how all this unfolds. I saw a carbon copy of this already it was called the 08 season for the T-Wolves
i dont think smith should be getting ripped like this the blame should go to santana cause i heard we were going to hold onto him and wait for the yankees and boston to come to us but he forced our hand with the deadline. i truly believe if we hang onto him and trade him later we get more than any of the other offers. santana just proved how much of a mercenary he is and loyalty went out the window. if santana cared about the twins he would of helped them get the best deal for him instead of putting deadlines on it so i blame santana
Travis - Sox and Yankees potential deals were over, in my opinion. Certainly, if anything, Twins waited far too long. They knew something would need to be done before spring training. Now that we are 2 weeks away from that I don’t think Santana can be blamed for the Twins; lack of action.
I do wonder if the Sox deal wasn’t pulled off the table entirely (along with the Yankees). I am confident the best you would have gotten is what we offered way back in the winter meetings.
Santana is not to blame it is the Cheeeeeeeap owner not caring because he got his stadium. he only built the team up to get the stadium then once he got that he dismantled it like a florida marlin fire sale
Tate asks:
“In any case, how soon do you think will the Twins be able to compete?”
As soon as we get new ownership.
smith is a pimple on pohlads but crack. he is not to blame he is a puppet like pinochio
Egad
with this trade… (depending on the CRAP we get for Nathan now)…
I would say sometime after hell freezes over.
I, for one, am elated that Santana is in the NL. Neither the Sox or the Yanks gave away the farm for him…..as far as I’m concerned, everyone except possibly the Twinks won with this deal.
Santana Mets57,
Please tell me what I am apologizing for. My last apology is wasted unless I can link it to the correct mistake.
I am so mad I could picket outside Pohlad’s 1 bedroom candle lit apartment in Hopkins
So after seeing this deal, and the Delmon Young deal.
The Twins will trade Joe Nathan for a box of rocks, 12 empty cans of diet 7up, and a year’s supply of garbage bags for the bathrooms in the Metrodome…
I hope to heck I can someday say I’m wrong on this one, but this right now looks worse than the deals that Kevin McHale makes for the Timberwolves.
I do feel for you all since the Red Sox had horrible ownership forever (the Bruins still do) and it was tough.
There is no doubt in anyone’s mind that the turning point for the Sox in this recent good times was not the signing of any one player, but the team being bought by the John Henry/Tom Werner group.
Since then everything from great renovations to Fenway Park to (obviously) World Championships has followed as they have simply done what was needed to win. Ya - we are now paying $50 for the normal seat in Fenway, but we’re feeling like it’s our time - priceless.
Maybe the Twins will have some good luck in this regard!!!
BC: do you ever really know what you’re talking about?
Worse than McHale? GOd, what hyperbole.
I would rather have the Twins contracted then have Pohlad run them any longer
First of all, before we blame Bill Smith, blame any number of the following: Santana for purportedly imposing a Tuesday deadline (thus prohibiting BS for waiting until spring training and the start of the season to determine how opposing squads’ pitching staffs would shake out), or Terry Ryan, for sitting on his hands while Santana cautioned Ryan that it would be wise to sign him a year ago. Yet Ryan waited.
Brutal Trade. Jim Souhan acts like the Twins thought this was the best choice of a trade. The reality is that Boston and the Yanks had better offers that Bill Smith turned down because he thought he could get even better offers!
But he didn’t and he was stuck with this pile of poo. Some New York papers report the Twins called the Yanks and begged for Ian Kennedy, Melky and another prospect and were shot down before they took the Mets offer. Pathetic when we could have got Hughes, Melky & Marquez.
Bill Smith should be fired right now.
After a nights sleep since hearing about this news, all I can think of is how I would feel waking up after a hard night of drinking and seeing the shock at the thing that is laying in the bed next to me.
There are conflicting reports about what went on. One report has Smith going to the Yankees in desperation begging them to offer Kennedy, Melky and a prospect. Yet another report had Smith going to the Yankees and telling them that he would take Wang instead of Hughes, and Kennedy and Melky and a prospect.
In either of the two, does that sound like Smith is sane? Smith should be run out of town. I know there are reports about all the upside these prospects have. Guess what. Those reports come from people who are joined at the hip with the Mets. That doesn’t make it reliable.
The Mets farm system is not rated highly, so there is no way to say that because the Mets gave up their 2, 3, 4 and 7th prospects its a good deal. That would be like saying hiring the top graduate of a community college is the same as hiring the top student from Harvard or Yale.
Smith needs to go. Frankly, after this, I wouldn’t be surprised to see the Twins francise move to a different city. There is only so much we fans are going to take before we leave. I am pretty close to that point right now.
Smith’s delaying acceptance of December trade offers is wrong ONLY in hindsight.
If you could have seen into the future back then, you would not be a pathetic complaining blogger,
You could have done something with your own life with that gift.
I think all the armchair gm’s need to rest now. Not one of you knows anything about the players we received. You read stuff online and think its gospel and I doubt you have sat in minor league parks and scouted these players. The twins have a good track record with prospects, so lets give them the benefit of the doubt.
Blame Santana??? Why? Because he agreed to waive his no trade clause? Because he did not Veto any potentially interested party (incl Seatle or either LA teams)?
Despite what LaVelle (the Twinkies Spin Doctor) is saying, I am sure that Smith knew that Johan wanted to be moved before Spring Training. It was widely speculated. I can see why the fans want to blame Johan but he has been as classy as anyone could have hoped for. Why shouldn’t he get paid what the market is willing to bear. He was doing the Twins a favor by not invoking the NTC and going to free-agency.
No player is worth what Santana wanted, so the Twins had to settle for what they could get. We dont know if the packages from the Red Sox and Yankees was ever going to happen earlier in the trade talks, it was all speculation. We now have our centerfielder and I am kind of excited to see him in action.
First off, those East Coast putzes (if that’s a word) couldn’t just once surprise me and walk away from this with a modicum of class, could they? No, they infiltrate a Twins blog and spout off. Their newspapers humiliate our fans further by portraying the GM as a spineless weenie by begging the Yankees for a lesser deal.
Listen, why don’t you all shut up and go home? You got Johan, you had to give up very little in substance to do so. So go talk amongst yourselves - I’ll give you a topic: Johan and his agent talking out of both sides of their mouth when saying they wouldn’t do anything to impede the team’s efforts to get the best deal possible and then giving the team a deadline when all reports indicated the best deals were just off the table. Today I lost a lot of respect for Johan and I am frankly very bitter about this whole situation.
I wish I could muster some enthusiasm for the upcoming season. But I’m not 15 and in love with Joe Mauer so I guess I’ll have to search for a reason to look forward to Opening Day.
More blame should fall on his feet and Ryan’s feet than Bill Smith. He was HANDED this mess…if I were him, I’d want to wait until spring training started to determine if a pitcher from the Red Sox, Yankees, et al, was injured; OR the season to start to determine if the Red Sox, Yankees, got off to a rocky start. Don’t you think that there would be increased pressure on the Yankees, for example, if they got off to a 10-20 start (all the while the young pitchers were flailing)? THUS, the onus to make a deal would have switched to the Yankees, for example.
If I were BS, I would want to wait as well…
This is NOT BS’ fault. As was mentioned before, those of you who think you’re a great baseball mind need to chill out; I would almost guarantee that most have never seen any of these young Mets prospects play. You know NO MORE than the rest of us.
Sane - I see that all the unthinking rage expressed here has given you more of an edge than usual - as it has me. Especially when people ignore the facts because they don’t fit in with their preconceived notions.
For example, Lavelle is the “Twinkies Spin Doctor”???? Because he lays out the facts of the situation, and they don’t mesh with our preset reactions???
BTW, Lavelle has a new blog post up, and we’re posting over there.
TR is to blame not BS. He was handed a mess that TR ran away quickly from. TR kind of did the “old” cherry bomb in the toilet routine. Should have signed them before it came to this.
Do any of you remember Willie Norwood? Bombo Rivera? Hosken Powell? Those were some lean years. The next couple of years won’t even compare to the early to lkate 70’s early 80’s.
But…it have been said Billy Smith did have better deals on the table. That he waited this long is Billy Smith’s fault. That Santana is no longer a Twin is not Billy Smith’s fault.
I AM A 63 YEAR OLD MINNESOTAN AND HAVE WATCHED THE TWINS SINCE I WAS IN HIGH SCHOOL.
I ENJOYED THE GOOD TIMES AND THE BAD..MORE BAD
THE LOSS OF ICONS, HUNTER AND SANTANA FROM THE TEAM HAS ELIMINATED ANY CHANCE OF THIS TEAM WINNING A WORLD SERIES, IT IS THE TIMBERWOLVES ALL OVER. PEOPLE WILL COME TO SEE THE NEW STADIUM, ONCE AND NOT RETURN IN DROVES. I CANNOT AFFORD TO WATCH THE TWINS ANYMORE.ON A FIXED INCOME AND THAT IS OK WITH ME..I WILL NOT SEE ANOTHER TWINS GAME, THE $$$ ASPECT OF THE GAME HAS TAKEN THE INTEREST OUT OF IT AND ESPECIALLY SINCE WCCO STOPPED BROADCASTING THE GAMES..I USED TO LISTEN TO THEM AT MY COMPUTER ON SECOND SHIFT AT WORK…MADE THE TIME GO BY. I WILL, WITH GREAT SADNESS, ABSTAIN FROM WATCHING.
Dennis G.,
With all due respect, I hope you reconsider. I do not agree how you can say that the Twins will never win another World Series based on the losses of Hunter and Santana. Watching the Twins on TV should not cost you anything, other than cable or satellite fees, and $$$ aspect is nothing new since free agency started in the 70’s. If you really love baseball, keep on watching.
From one Dennis to another - I understand your feelings. But I think they’re wrong. Johan and Torii had to go because Terry Ryan botched their situations. The signings of Morneau and Cuddyer show that Bill Smith will do things much differently. He has a firm long range plan in mind that will reward us soon.
And gee whiz, the Twins have won two World Series since 1987. Only ONE team has won more in that period. And they won four of the last six division titles. With your history I can’t accuse you of having been a fair weather friend. Please don’t start now.
Terry Ryan=rat leaving a sinking ship.
hey twins fans, nothing wrong with rooting for young kids. your GM certainly waited too long and panicked but life goes on ..you have some good young pitching with loriano and hopefully this kid gomez will turn into a solid overall player (i think he is the only player you got back who has a high ceiling). good luck next year.
Minnesota needs a center fielder. Maybe they can trade Carlos Gomez, Phillip Humber, Kevin Mulvey and Deolis Guerra for Coco Crisp. I hear he’s still available. But I’m not sure the Red Sox would make that trade.
Terry Ryan=rat leaving a sinking ship.
&&
Terry Ryan=captain that steered into the iceberg.
I figured since we were doing equations I’d finish the calculations for you.
RealityCheck, better deals were on the table. But at the time Smith was still trying to negotiate a contract on the side.
It wasn’t until the official rejection of 5/100 coupled with the deadline set by Santana and his agent that Smith’s hand was forced.
there’s no proof those other deals ever were on the table … hopefully when the deal goes through Smith will candidly tell us which offers were real and which offers were myths …
WAAAAA!!!!- WAAAAAA!!!! THE TWINKIES GET HOSED AGAIN…BUSH LEAGUE….ARE YOU THE EXPOS of the AMERICAN LEAGUE…YOU SURE LOOK LIKE ‘EM
Your Amature GM… showed how green he is…
