If the Twins had to do it all over again…..
Posted on January 30th, 2008 – 9:57 AMBy La Velle
Second-guessing is so easy. And the Twins are being ripped for waiting too long to trade Johan Santana and getting less than what they could have several weeks ago. The word incompetence is used here. And Red Sox officials feel they had a better deal, whatever deal that was.
We may never learn exactly what the November, December and January offers were. It’s hard to believe that the Twins only got a quartet of prospects for the one of the top pitchers in the game.
But it can’t be stressed enough how much Santana affected what the Twins had to do. He had grown too big for Minnesota. He wanted to pitch on the big stage, which Minnesota isn’t.
He wanted a large contract, so large that he turned down a four-year, $80 million extension from the Twins - and the Twins let it be known that they were willing to add a fifth year to their offer. I’ve heard that Santana and his agent will pursue a contract from the Mets that includes a signing bonus large enough to bridge the gap between the $13.25 million he’s due this season and that they feel is current market value ($7-9 million?). The players association obviously wants Santana to redefine the already exploding market for pitching.
And that’s not a rip on Santana. Some players are comfortable dropping anchor in some places. Santana wants to pitch in the largest market and get paid accordingly. It’s his right. I think Santana had made up his mind that it was time for a change, which led to the request from his agent that the Twins agree to a deal by Tuesday or he would just play out the final year of his contract.
Twins GM Bill Smith tried to wait until someone stepped up with an improved offer. The Red Sox and Yankees never did -it looks like both actually pulled back their offers. Who can predict that happening?
I can understand the Red Sox. They were talking dynasty at the winter meetings when it looked like they could get Santana. But they only wanted him. They didn’t need him and weren’t sure if they could sign him anyway.
The Yankees baffle me. GM Brian Cashman, who doesn’t have an easy job working with Hank Steinbrenner, was able to hold on to young players when it’s obvious the Yankees don’t have enough top pitching to beat the Red Sox.
And I’m not buying their sudden fiscal concerns. They have Bob Abreu ($16 million), Andy Pettitte ($16 million) and Mike Mussina ($11 million) coming off the books after this season, and probably won’t pick up Jason Giambi’s option after he makes $21 million this year. And there’s a new stadium opening in 2009. I’m just not buying it.
If the Twins are fortunate enough to have the best pitcher in baseball again, they hopefully will be more aggressive to sign that pitcher when he’s two years away from free agency. The Twins had a shot a year ago but were unable to extend Santana. That’s when they put themselves in a box. And that was the beginning of a season during which Santana became disgruntled over personnel decisions.
The Twins kept reminding me that no trade is better than a bad one. It’s too bad we’ll have to wait three years before grading this one.
445 Responses to "If the Twins had to do it all over again….."
It’s hard to see this trade ever favoring the Twins. If Santana gets hurt or isn’t what he used to be… then maybe. The young 18y/o prospect if he turns into another Santana would also be huge… But doubtfull. Mulvey and Humber are garbage. Gomez might be a better version of Coco Crisp but I think he had 8 walks to 35 strikeouts last year and hit 220 or what not. Not a good sign. Why didn’t you take Hughes and Melky! Why?!
Time to move on; at least the painful process is over. But grading out Hughes/Melky, Ellsbury/Lowrie, Lester/Coco etc over the next several years may also cause pain……….
What is the truth about the last minute calls that were made? Did Smith really ask the Yankees for Wang and Kennedy? Or was he willing to go with Kennedy, Melky and a prospect.
That will tell you volumes about who blew this thing.
Another thing I don’t understand, so many teams seem to want the Yankees kids in trades. If that is the case, then why is it so bad that they want to keep them? If they are deemed worth getting the best pitcher in baseball, then shouldn’t they also be deemed worth holding on to? It can’t really work both ways.
Lavelle - Excellent post. I agree with everything you said. I don’t mind people disagreeing on any level, but most of the disgruntled posters aren’t laying out any logical arguments. And they’re also ignoring the facts. Fact 1: Santana wouldn’t sign here unless we gave him a contract that makes no sense on any level. And maybe not even then. Fact 2: Santana imposed a deadline, tying Smith’s hands. Fact 3: Almost all observers, both local and national, were saying Smith should play it tough with the Yankees and Red Sox and he’d get more. They were saying if he caved in to those offers it would show how outclassed he was.
On an opinion level, it also seems most posters are extending the idea that “prospects aren’t proven, and could fail” to the idea that “none of these prospects will amount to anything”.
Again, disagree all you want. But please make a rational argument, not ad hominem attacks.
It was over when Zito signed and they didn’t give Hunter the Matthews Jr. money around that time as well. You could make a case that both were the right thing to do. But you hit it on the head with Johan - the right thing to do was extend him two years ago, IF he wanted to stay.
So the two things I wonder now are:
-What FA SP do they bring in to eat innings?
-Is Monroe gone now? Don’t we need to see what we have in 2 of Gomez/Pridie/Span along with Young, Kubel, Cuddyer for OF/DH? Can we afford to keep a guy on a one-year deal we have no intention of keeping long-term?
LEN III
Were the Mets unwilling to give up Martinez or did the Twins favor Gomez or him? I think this trade would be a little more palatable if you swapped those two players in the trade.
Well, now we have an abundance of OF (especially CF) and pitching at AAA level. None of them are projecting to be studs. Are we actually done making moves, or did we get more prospects in the hopes that we can spin up another trade?
Sean - “Humber and Mulvey are garbage”??? How can you possibly know that? And why would your opinion have more weight than that of the Twins’s scouts? Most analyses I’ve read put them as #3 starters, maybe #4. Seth Stohs’ analysis gives both the possibility of being #2s. Carlos Silva is a #3 or #4, and everyone seems to regret his leaving.
any one know how gomez was doing in winter ball
Brett - MANY analysts project Gomez to be a stud. It’s not a sure thing, obviously, but totally possible. And Ben Revere has the possibility to be a stud. Of course, Denard Span has the possibility to be a groundskeeper.
Its tough right now to fully anaylze this trade, which we all want to do right when it happens. The Twins have proven before that certain offers may be better than at first glance, see..A.J. The Twins were at least somewhat competivtive in their offer of 4/80 and did what they had to do. But I do agree that a year ago would have been the right time for this deal. Only time will tell where the Twins land with this deal.
Boy, the media is really letting Bill Smith have it, but where is everyone letting the Yankees have it? They could not get the best pitcher in the game, who would bolster the weakest aspect of the Yankees game…because of Ian Kennedy. Wow. If Kennedy, Hughes and The Milk was what would get it done…What were they waiting for?
Sean - Also, the Gomez stats you cite were as a 21 year old in the majors. Everyone says he was rushed. The stats of a 21 year old in his first exposure to MLB mean nothing. At his age the scouting reports and projected development are the important things.
I don’t want to be an apologist for the trade. I’m just saying we shouldn’t go overboard the other way either.
Maybe the Yankees were afraid that if they trade Hughes somehow he will end up in the Red Sox someday. Or maybe they thought that Santana likes the Yankees so much he will not sign with any other team and they will be able to sign him on as a free agent in September.
We should know by 2010 how things unfold, maybe sooner hopefully, who knows, only time will tell.Patience is the key now in my mind.
What I do know now is that we have lost a great player, one of those who doesn’t come around often. I blame it on the lack of a salary cap, not the Pohlads or the G.M.
I’ll still be a fan and I’ll see ya in Fort Meyers in March.
HAVE FUN !!! GO TWINS !!!
I’m sick of rooting for a Triple A team posing as an MLB franchise. Another shining example of our cheap ownership. I tell you one thing, if the owner isn’t going to spend any money until the new park is here neither will I. Why would I want to go to game to watch a team that aspires to be mediocre. Go Twins, and take the Timberwolves with you!!!!!!
Thank God we have hope for the future in the Gophers, because our pro teams sukk.
Excellent points, Dennis. It seems like several posters here feel their opinion is gospel, when they’re just that: OPINIONS. How do we know Mulvey and Humber are “garbage?” YOU DON’T KNOW THIS! We’re not competing for 2008, people. We’re competing for 2010. We weren’t going to compete this year WITH Santana…
jhawk90
1. The Twins are interested in a couple remaining free agent pitchers, but my goodness they have boatload of young pitchers now. What about Nick Blackburn? Brian Duensing? Ryan Mullins? It’s time for those guys to get a shot but here comes Humber and maybe Mulvey into the mix.
2. It makes you wonder if Monroe will get cut early in camp. They are loaded with OF’s. Monroe needs to get off to a good start.
I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night so believe this. The Twins know how to evaluate prospects, so lets give them the benefit of the doubt. Not one of you armchair gm’s know for sure what we got in return.
If Santana is so good……If the Yankees and the Red Sox are so great.
If money was not the problem. If length of contract was no issue………THEN
Why didn’t the Yanks and the Sox sign him?
Because……… he was worth what the Twins got for him. It is what it is! The more he gets, the more I have to pay to watch the team.
Good point, Chad. Too many people here think they’re more adept at evaluating talent than major league scouts.
dan @ work
didn’t hear how he was doing, but did hear that the mets pulled him out of the league a few days ago….a little foreshadowing there. my 2 cents, i agree B.S. waited too long to pull the trigger for sure but did what he could at the last minute. pretty dissapointing. it will certainly be interesting watching the rotating door between our starters and rochester’s. they will all get their opportunity to make a splash in the bigs and set up what i hope to be a pretty salty young rotation in 2009.
Thanks La Velle - I just envision a long year for the bullpen. Guerrier needs to pack a lunch.
You’d think maybe they’d sign/trade for a vet to give the kids some leadership. Don’t know who that is at the moment.
neil: cheap ownership? what would you have offered santana? 4 years/90 mil + 2008 at 13 seems reasonable to me. what’s your proposal?
TR is to blame not BS. He was handed a mess that TR ran away quickly from. TR kind of did the “old” cherry bomb in the toilet routine. Should have signed them before it came to this.
1/ BS waited to long
2/ TR should have signed them long term a long time ago
3/ Pohlad will not spend market value for any player
Neil - Please use some facts when you state your opinion. Differing opinions are great, but they have to be based on something. The Twins as a continual AAA team???? Get real. They have won FOUR OF THE LAST SIX division titles. That’s a fact. Almost everyone berating the trade is ignoring the facts. Another one: Johan imposed a deadline of yesterday.
I think Gomez could be pretty exciting to watch. It’s been a long time since we’ve had a legit base stealer at the top of the lineup. We should have sound defense, sound pitching and some pretty good young hitters. Let’s give them a chance and see what we got. If I was BS and Francisco is healthy and looks good I would start working on his next contract right now so we dont run into the same problems. Win Twins.
Jimmy: I think that’s the first really intelligent thing you’ve said 
dan @ work- gomez hit .262 with 10sb in 29 games.
50 cents on the dollar. You have to be willing to pay market value. especially make it worth the move up here cause the weather completely stinks
This offseason has been an embarrassment
losing Hunter,Santana, and Silva. Then the Twin’s say there not rebuilding. How dumb do they think we are? I hope the Twin’s attendance is dismal for the 2 years that’s left in the Metrodome to protest the mass exodus of talent.
To all those who say BS waited too long: you’re right IN HINDSIGHT. But this blog was totally dominated earlier this month by people INSISTING that BS hold out against the Yankees and Red Sox because they’d cave in and offer more. People were saying if he took one of those offers it would prove how inept he was compared to the seasoned guys on the coast. National pundits were saying the same thing. Yes, he waited too long. But almost no one here would have done it differently.
Hopefully Bill Smith totally redeems himself by trading Nathan for some young Cubs talent.
Read this from Nov.
http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/11695421.html
It kind of makes things seem a little more clear. Does anyone know if Gomez has stats from winter ball?
well lets see if I was a rich baseball player sitting and thinking, do I really want to come to a place that can get 14 below zero and get low balled on a contract or do I want to go to a competetive team where they have better then 14 below zero days and I make market value.
come on chad -
explain how much you would have paid to keep hunter and santana, and what % of the payroll that would have ended up being. the twins offers to both were beyond reasonable. you cant make someone play where they dont want to.
Dennis
Fact 1-Hughes/Cabrera/Marquis was a better deal
Fact 2-Ellsbury/Lowrie/Masterson/prospect was a better deal
Fact 3- Lester/Crisp/Masterson/Lowrie was a better deal
Fact 4 Hulvey and Mulvey are decen #4 PITCHERS
Fact 5- You are stealing this “fact bit” from Jim Souhan
Fact 6- YOu are a poser
Fact 7-YOu are crazy to think this a good deal
I am fine that we did not get Martinez, but we NEEDED Pelfry and Heilman! Pelfry is their best young pitcher, and Heilman is a good veteran pitcher that could have plugged in very nicely to an age deprived rotation.
This is the only way this could be a good trade:
Gomez- bats .285-.300 with 10HR,and a good amount of doules and triples, along with with his projected GREAT defense, and 50+ stolen bases per year.
Guerre- becomes a dominate top two pitcher in 3-5 years.
Mulvey- strong #3 pitcher (under 4 ERA)
Humber- strong #3 pitcher (under 4 ERA)
Will that happen? i highly doubt it, but if Gomez,Guerre,and one of those GARBAGE pitchers turn out to be good, than i will say this was a fair,good trade, but again i would rather bet on Rondell White coming out of retirement to hit 40 HR, before betting on that scenario to happen.
WE NEEDED PELFRY AND HEILMAN!!!!!!!!!
The fact is that although we all love Johan and most think he’s a great guy, he really screwed the Twins on this one. The deadline killed what the team was trying to do. Hopefully, we stop giving out no-trade clauses to lessen the possibility of this happening in the future. I still like Santana, but I lost some respect for him when he put the Twins on a deadline. What happened to allowing the team do what’s best for all parties?
We don’t have to trade Nathan yet. If we are not in the race by the trade deadline then we can trade him and get just as much as we would right now. You guys need to chill, let’s see how they do.
We could have competed this year with Santana. Sign Kenny Lofton as a quality stop gap for this season, let him, Mauer, and Harris get on base and then have our power guys knock them in. Santana can stabalize a rotation and can give his team a shot in the arm in August like no other.
What I think people are forgetting is that the Twins could have kept him, and then gotten two high draft picks for him in compensation when he left. This basically amounts to the same thing except with Santana they actually had a chance to compete.
I know scouts like Gomez’s glove, speed, and base-running. The problem is that they also say he can’t hit a slider. Big problem. Maybe Vavra and the Twins can develop him but if you can’t hit a slider by the time you get to the majors, chances are stacked against you.
Humber is two years removed from Tommy Johns surgery which, often time ends careers. He is 25 and has a losing reccord in the minors. None of these prospects have more than 3 pitches and none of them have developed a stellar out pitch.
Even if they do work out, the Twins have a plethora of pitching prospect already and can draft pitching prospects very well. They didn’t need to make this trade for unimpressive pitching prospect.
This is the best outside analysis I’ve read so far, from Buster Olney of ESPN:
In the end, the Twins wound up taking what was probably the fourth-best offer that they saw during this process, after not jumping at deals built around Jon Lester, Jacoby Ellsbury and Phil Hughes along the way. We can sit here, as Monday morning quarterbacks, and say they could’ve gotten more.
But of course, it was a lot more complicated than that along the way. The end line was a moving target, and if you were sitting in the seat of new Twins GM Bill Smith, there was a lot of reason to think that the Yankees might jump back into the mix with both feet, considering how outspoken that Hank Steinbrenner was about wanting Santana. And if the Yankees had stayed in play, the Red Sox would’ve continued to nudge their offers up a little (not much, though), and the Mets’ package — which, in early January, the Twins’ evaluators regarded as being vastly inferior to what they wanted to get from the Yankees or Boston. Smith waited, hoping for what was a brutal situation to turn his way, and it did not.
Oakland got more for Dan Haren, and the Orioles — who are addressing a technicality that has popped up in the proposed Erik Bedard deal and will probably soon reach the point where they give Adam Jones and others physicals — will get a better deal for their pitchers. But comparing the Haren and Bedard trades to the Santana situation is an apples-and-oranges deal. The offers for Santana were diminished greatly by Santana’s impending free agency, and the fact that he was in position to demand the largest contract in the history of pitching (see above). If Santana was still three years away from free agency, the Yankees probably would’ve offered Hughes, Kennedy and some of the best horses on Hank Steinbrenner’s farm, because of the relative cost.
Could Smith have made better deals earlier in the process? No question. But to say he made a mistake, another GM mused late Tuesday night, “you would have to be completely ignorant of the process, and how this played out. Anyone who says that doesn’t know what he’s talking about.”
Twins fans are hilariously optimistic.
i still think the twins should try to get mark ellis out of the A’s fire sale. let harris fill in at 3b, ss and 2b we need another infielder that is ml ready. monroe is still a decent option to dh against lh pitching and pinch hit. but we do need another at least semi ready infielder. not casilla or buscher neither is the answer right now maybe in the future.
Tyler You don’t know if any of those offers were legit, again making assumptions on what you read online. Give it a rest, everthing will be fine. The Twins know what they are doing.
If Dennis says “FACT” one more time…
I for one am glad this is finally over with and i will miss watching Johan pitch and i wish him luck in NY he will need it if for some reason he doesn’t win 25 games next year. The Twins were smart to at least get something and not paying one player a million dollars for each game he (helps) them win.
Travis- I understand your point, but I imagine the reality is that Santana set a deadline because he is trying to get ready for the season as well. He knew he was going to a new city and new team and probably wanted a couple of weeks to get ready. Would you want to wait until the night before you were supposed to start work to find out where you were going to be working, especially if it meant an different city/state?
WOW! We are a Country at war…….men and women losing their lives…..we are in a recession…….people are losing their homes…and you folks are upset about people making millions and millions of dollars…..greed does not get one to heaven.
Dewey Moede
The trade cannot realistically be judged until the prospects have a couple of years in the Twins system.
Of course, any major transaction of this sort brings on the “Pohlads are stingy” crowds, but the Pohlad family have been outstanding owners and Minnesota is very fortunate to have them as its citizens.
I hope for the best for Johan, but every game I went to he was a killer pitcher for 4 to 5 innings and then got beat up pretty bad.
BS dropped the ball on this one. You only get 1 more screw up so use it wisely and get us something we can use now for Nathan
Tyler - If you don’t believe me read the Buster Olney thing I posted above. And the facts aren’t from Souhan. They’re from multiple locations.
Fact 1 - Agreed, but read the Olney piece.
Fact 2 - Agreed, Olney
Fact 3 - Agreed, Olney
Fact 4 - Agreed, though both have the POTENTIAL to be better than that.
Fact 5 - No
Fact 6 - Damn, you got me there.
Fact 7 - No, I didn’t say it was a good deal. I said it’s the best Smith could do under the circumstances. Please read the Olney article.
I think the Yankees were baffled by the Twins. Hughes was the best player the Twins could have got in any deal and they never jumped on it. A number 1 type pitcher who could start for us this year.
And yet Smith greedy and wanted Kennedy too. Laughable. Ian Kennedy is a lot better than Mulvey and Humber who are back of the end rotation guys at best.
Bill Smith is a fool and just got played.
If Sid Hartman was reading this stuff he would call 90% of you genius’s
Tyler - Fact, fact, fact.
Seriously, though, I’m saying it because what good is an opinion if it’s not based on fact? If it’s only based on preconceived notions that IGNORE the facts. Unfortunately, that’s what people here are doing. I’m not saying it’s a fac, that this is a good deal. I’m not saying it’s a fact that Gomez will be great. But it is a fact that none of us know how these guys will turn out. And it appears to be a fact that Johan gave us a deadline, and the other offers dried up.
Is that enough “facts” for you? 
I thought the Twins’ scouts were particularly on their A-game with Mills,Garbe,Johnson,Moses, Spann etc. etc.
Those offers were legit. It will probably be a bad trade, but I hope I am wrong. I will admit though that Gomez AND Guerre have great raw talen and COULD be good. But there were better offers, and Bill Smith should have realized it was a poor market for Santana and went with the Yankees offer. Why sit around and wait, when the offers will only get worse?
I am not a GM. So i do not now how many calls Smith was getting from the Yankees and RedSox. I ASSUMED that Bill Smith had a reason for holding out, but apparantly he had none. I understand the pressure he was under but he dug himself into a hole.
Santana and nathan for kennedy and hughes but no. Mulvey and Humber = Bonzer and Slowey
Wow, did we ever get fleeced! I understand that the financial structure of baseball is broken beyond repair and that it was necessary to deal Santana. However, I don’t believe it was necessary to trade him for NOTHING!!! Randy Moss, Kevin Garnett, and now Johan Santana. Minnesota sports teams are minor league franchises, there only to stock the talent pool of the good teams that have money.
Imagine Phil Hughes as the #1 starter (or #2 if Liriano comes back 100%) and Melky Cabrera leading off and playing center field. Imagine Jacoby Ellsbury leading off and playing center field (not to mention the two hot prospects the Red Sox were prepared to give up) or even Coco Crisp leading off and playing center field and John Lester as the #2 starter.
Instead the Twins get a young center fielder (Gomez) who can’t hit a lick (.232 last year), two Boof Bonser-type pitchers (Humber and Mulvey), and a very young pitcher (Garcia) who had a 4.01 ERA in low A ball last year. All four players are considered merely average talent and none of them is considered a “can’t miss” player. Meanwhile, the Twins were not able to get either the hotshot young AAA center fielder (Fernando Martinez) or the most promising pitching prospect (Mike Pelfry) included in the deal.
Smith showed his inexperience and panicked because he was given a deadline by Santana to make the trade. Santana’s agent also represents Reyes (Mets’ SS). Can we assume that the “secret deadline” was not a secret to the Mets (and probably the other teams for that matter) and that’s why the Twins got suckered? The Morneau and Cuddyer signings were obviously for PR, to soften the fall-out from this awful trade. Why must they do EVERYTHING on the cheap?!
The Royals must be licking their chops. They should be able to pass the (probably 70-92 if they’re lucky) Twins and move into fourth place in the AL Central. It is not news that the Pohlads are cheap. But is it necessary to just GIVE AWAY your best players (Torii Hunter, Johan Santana, and Joe Nathan- I’m sure it will be just a matter of days for Nathan)?! It’s going to be a long summer and a long 2009, 2010 (new stadium of not), 2011…
Troy - I keep saying it, but almost all observers were saying if Smith pulled the trigger on those early deals he’d be a fool. He’d be shown as the rube who got taken by the big guys. He did what almost everyone said he should.
I heard no one has picked up Tyner we should get him back
A BAG OF ROCKS FOR Santana. Thats what you got. Are you kidding me???
the Yanks, sox offers were so much better. Not ONE of the prospects will be a BIG time player. NOT ONE.
PATHETIC.Humber, Mulvey are borderline 4-5 starters at best. Gomez - seen him play, nothing to get excited about. Dime a dozen player.
Santana for legion ball players
Is Bill Smith taking advice from Kevin McHale? Maybe we could have thrown in the two #1 picks we got for Torii Hunter in this package… Third worst trade in MN Sports History (behind Herschel Walker and Randy Moss)…
Lambert so you were at the ballpark scouting these guys. Is that how you know this stuff?
DEWEY MOEDE
Posting self righteous comments on a blog doesn’t get you into heaven either.
preacher Dewey Moede:
thanks for the advice. should we cease all sports discussions until the economy turns up?
melky is mediocre at best, which is what gomez will be at worst. that would not have made sense.
I understand Bill Smith was in a tough position and don’t blame him for trying to get the best deal. I just have a hard time believing that 1) He couldn’t get a better deal from the Mets and 2) this was the best deal on the table. 4 unproven, untested prospects. I think these players are a better option than 2 draft picks at the end of the year, but I just don’t see the Red Sox not being better, even if it was reduced.
Jimmy Bee another scout I see, where do the Twins find all you guys.
To Johan……. thank you for the good times you gave us while you were a Minn Twin. I think you were a genuine nice guy most of time. That being said there was a side of you that wasnt so genuine too. You like to credit for things that you wernt entirely your doing. for example the donating of a fire truck to your people that was mostly donated by one of the towns by the Twin Cities. and all the money you donated for hospitals and such when in fact you only help raise the money. I NEVER ONCE Heard you say thanks to the Twins or their fans for for giving you a break and taking you out of slum row. So in fact there is a side of you that reminds me of your buddy that pig Torri Hunter. Have fon in NY because they will eat you up if you cant throw your sliderand pitch like you did last year.
if you guys think we’re upset, check out the yankees fans this morning. to think they said no deal on johan for kennedy,melky,and another prospect has them up in arms. today we may feel like the big loser in this, but when the yankees are watching the playoffs from home there is going to be some cashman bashing in oct.
OK, I’m done. Pete just pushed me over the edge. If people want to willfully disregard reality there’s no way to stop them. The four new guys are “average talent”??? And represent “nothing”??? And the cause of the trade was that the Pohlads are cheap (completely ignoring the consistent 50-55% thing)??? We gave away our players after we offered them multi-millions of dollars? Ignoring that both only wanted the highest possible salary, and that those salaries simply make no financial sense at all. The Twins got suckered because of the deadline???? And the Yankees and Red Sox just forgot to put in a bid for such a steal???? And the MLB stats of a 21 year old obviously rushed to the majors means something??? And Tommy John guys rarely come back???? (Most now come back, some better than before the surgery.) The Twins are a minor league franchise, despite winning the division four of the past six years????
I’ll quit spouting “facts” so that people who want to form opinion in the absence of fact can continue to do so.
According to a Bergen Record reporter, it’s not about second guessing but about the Twins having really No Choice in the matter. The Yanks pulled out (which has been none for weeks, except here) and the Red Sox pulled Lester and Ellsbury, according to the reporter.
From a local blog.
Yankees, Red Sox eyewitnesses to a crime
January
30
Bob Klapisch of The Record reported today that the Twins tried a last-ditch proposal of Ian Kennedy, Melky Cabrera and another prospect for Johan Santana.
No dice. Klap also says the Red Sox took both Jacoby Ellsbury and Jon Lester off the table.
In the end, Minnesota had little choice but to take what the Mets were offering. Omar Minaya got Santana and held on to his best pitching prospect (Mike Pelfrey) and his best hitting prospect (Fernando Martinez).
Talked to three people today about the deal, two scouts and a former GM. They all said the Twins were held up without a gun. Carlos Gomez is fast. And beyond that, well he’s fast. He’s an undisciplined hitter with a good glove.
Phil Humber is a kid the Mets had no faith in when they were searching bus stations and homeless shelters for starters last season. Deolis Guerra is a big (6-5) kid with a below-average fastball. Kevin Mulvey’s ceiling may be as a No. 4 starter.
There is no question whatsoever that the Yankees or the Red Sox could have come up with the players to make the trade yesterday. But both teams were clearly put off by the idea of paying Santana $120 million.
Good as he is, there were red flags all over his second half of the season. The idea in baseball now is to pay a pitcher for what he can do for you, not for what he did for somebody else
humber was a projected number 1 starter when he got drafted THIRD OVERALL!!! he had tommy john surgery and is just comming back this year for his second year from surgery.. he posted a 4.01 era in AAA when he first came back.. give him a break.. number 5 starter? come on.. do better then that…
not many people can hit breaking balls comming out of the minors.. .its somthing they learn how to do.. even delmon young has trouble with it.. gomez is only 21 though!!!! come on.. if he was 30 i would be saying that hes a bust but.. he could be the next barry bonds.. we dont know..
guerra is a top flight person who pitched a 2.30 era in low a ball AT 17!!!!! he had shoulder injury which plagued him for some of the season.. he came back in high a for the last part of the season and pitched a 4.00 era.. at only 18 hes at high a..
mulvey posted a 3.3 era at AA this year.. i dont even wanna hear how “bad” he is.. considering i bet none of you have seen him.. just cause his name isnt phil hughes or pelfrey or guerra doesnt mean he isnt good.. he came out of the 06 draft in the second round….
so stop saying this trade was bad…
I don’t understand people including Lavalle are saying we have a glut of outfielders. Before this trade we didn’t have a CF. Pridie and Gomez both have a shot to win the starting job. If one or both end up back in “AAA” we will still need Monroe.
chad swanson no personal attacks on me please we are talking about the Twins you Blog Nazi
Fact: If Francisco is healthy and looks good start working on his next contract now!!!!!!!!!
Again, if the Bergen Record reporter is correct, the Twins asked for Melky Cabrera - that “fourth outfielder” and Ian Kennedy, the fourth-fifth starter (according to some).
Me personally, I would have done it.
Dennis
With all due respect(because i dont want to sound like a know it all jerk), how can you buy the argument that “It was all he could do? I am going to use a a cool “fact list” for my points.
FACT- Bill Smith IS the GM. He gets the calls on the trade deals, etc. He knows more than anyone, if the deals were getting better. I ASSUMED he was getting phone calls from the Yankees improving their offers, but I was wrong. He wasted his time hoping on a miracle that the yankees whould improve their offer. That is too big of a risk.
FACT- The Twins should have been more open to adding prospects.
FACT- Santana was eventually going to have a trade demand.
FACT- Bill Smith SHOULD have understood that time was against him, and should have worked hard to get a deal.
FACT- The Mets knew we had no choice but to accept their crummy offer
Although I am not one of those guys ready to fire bill smith or anything, i think he handled the Santana issue horribly. He should have been more aggressive earlier to try to make a trade instead of hoping on a miracle the Yankees would some how improve their offer. He should have taken the offer when the market was the best, and that was two weeks after the winter meetings.
Boy a one two punch of HUghes and Liriano would not have been all bad. But i bet you guys think Mulvey and Humber are aces in themselves huh?
Pete Reiser- I don’t like Pelfrey at all. All velocity and no secondary pitches. Another overhyped NY prospect. But he’s better than than the garbage duo of Mulvey and Humber. Mulvey is a finesse college pitcher who throws in the high 80’s and Humber hasn’t gotten back the snap on his curveball since TJ surgery. UGH!
Hughes/Melky/Marquez or Dellin Betances or Austin Jackson should have been the deal.
Bill Smith is a fool.
Just remember, 20 mil isn’t pocket change, so it’s possible that Johann didn’t want to stay here. Also remember, Torii couldn’t hit major league pitching when he was 22.
Tyner will be back..with the Saints.
Just kidding, I hope he lands a job somewhere but his major league days may be coming to an end.
The Twins got what they deserved. Santana had had enough when they traded L. Çastillo at the trade deadline last year and gave up on the season. Johan was not coming back from that point on. And I don’t blame him.
Now they have no use for Nathan as there will be no save chances until at least 2010. The Twins choose prospects (read cheaper) over major league ready players (more expensive).
Those of you who say we have to wait three years to know that Smith and Polad just through the next two years away are just confirming our point.
What a hornet’s nest in here! Since yesterday afternoon, I’ve both laughed and winced at some of the comments I’ve seen. For what it’s worth, and I’m no professional scout, I don’t think we got the best value in return for Johan. However, I totally understand that Bill Smith was put into a box…by his predecessor, Terry Ryan, for not extending or moving Johan last year, and Johan+Agent Greenberg, for all their greed and vanity. Now, whether BS waited too long to make a deal…I don’t know. Hindsight is a beautiful thing, isn’t it, Ken Rosenthal? Like other’s here have said, we need to be patient and see how the players from the Mets develop. However, I’m fully in the camp that says any anger/frustration about this deal needs to be directed at Terry Ryan and Johan himself. In retrospect, I can see why TR stepped down, or was forced to step down. I think ownership knew he blew it and foresaw a PR problem. TR would have been a lighting rod, at a time when the organization was trying to build positive traction, related to the new ballpark. ‘Just my instincts…Would any of you agree?
As a Yankee fan, I want to than the Twins for not taking the Yankee offer. Philip Hughes is the real deal and will be a star for years to come and Melky Cabrera is a rising star who is only getting better. Not to mention the prospects we were adding to the deal were better than the Mets prospects period. This is the worst deal I have ever seen because of what the Yankees and Red Sox were offering. The Mets made the steal of the century. My heart goes out to the Twins Fans because this is as bad as it gets in a trade.
Paul amen brother
Johan gets his friend Castillo back a huge contract and a team that wants to actually compete. Good for Johan he gets to ride into the sunset
Troy/Tyler,
The Yanks weren’t offering those players..and had long been hesitant about trading Hughes.
Yes, Hamlet Hank Steinbrenner was being honest when he was saying he was conflicted about keeping Hughes or trading him or trading for Santana or not. People keep saying he was talkin nonsense and trying to bring down the price.
In the end, the Yanks made NO OFFER for Santana. Cashman won out.
What should have been the deal, in your words, didn’t exist.
Trades are two-way streets. If the Yanks or Red Sox are indoors, only the Twins are on the streets and there is no deal.
And it seems the Red Sox had pulled Lester and Ellsbury - maybe cause the Yanks had pulled out.
Myth 1: Phil Hughes is a guaranteed #1 Starter and the best player involved in trade discussions.
Myth 2: Joe Buck consistently urging Francona to put Ellsbury in the lineup in the Playoffs and his ensuing success makes him a better prospect than a 21 year old rushed into the Majors.
Myth 3: Humber and Mulvey can only be quality #4 starters because that is all they are projected to be by certain people.
Myth 4: Instant analysis that this deal was better or worse than any other deal can be made based on knowledge we have now.
Signing Hunter or Silva to their respective contracts would have been a disaster because of the ineffectiveness of Silva and the age of Hunter. Building through free agency is never a plan for success for a team like the Twins, and it makes no difference that the free agents happen to be from our own team. It sounds like Santana wanted to leave either this offseason or the next. Its my opinion that taking these 4 Prospects who have already been paid draft signing bonuses will be more cost effective and a better roll of the dice than 2 draft picks the following summer. Lets face it, the Twins scouting department has been much better at analyzing other teams prospects in trades than making astute draft picks sans the easy choice of Joe Mauer.
Lets take a look at what we have. We have an MVP, Batting Champ, Top hitting prospect in MLB in Young, a top closer to go along with a top over all BP. We have improved at 2nd, 3rd, and SS. We have options at DH. We may actually have a good lineup for a change. We have numbers to work with for starting pitching. Remember Santana was only 15-13. When Francisco was healthy, he was better than Santana. Now use Santana’s money on Nathan. He needs to be signed. One more point.. B.S. made the Young trade, when did T.R. ever trade away pitching? That was a good trade.
n.j.a.paul…. i would like to agree with you , and will after the twins sign liriano and d.young to multi-year deals next off-season (see morneau/cuddyer). let’s hope they’ve learned from this off-season…finally
Alfonso Soriano’s first two years in the majors were as a 23/24 year old. He hit .125/.180
Manny Ramirez’s first two years as a 21/22 year old - .170/.269
I guess they won’t amount to anything either.
I am from NY and also a Yankee fan and I have to say that the Twins GM overplayed his hand on this trade. I hate seeing the Mets get Santana ( only because now their fans think they just clinched the World Series) and I really hate seeing him go there for little to nothing. I thought, in my humble, non objective opinion, that the Yankee offer was the best. Melky, although not a stud, is a Gold Glove in CF and will eventually be a solid major league hitter and Hughes is going to be a legitimate 1 or 2 starter. The prospects I don’t know much about. Had the Twins done this trade, instead of getting greedy, they would have had a legitimate shot at competing against the Tigers this year. Now they take a step back. For those of you cursing my being a Yankee fan, I personally was hoping to see Santana stay in Minnesota. I have admired the Twin management from afar the past 7 years as they have put some pretty solid teams on the field and made some excellent trades. I think Cashman is trying to make the Yankees in that mold and I am glad he has held on to the young pitching. I feel bad for Twins fans because the team made him a fair offer 4 years / $80 million I believe, that he could have taken if he really wanted to stay. I hope these prospects you got from the Mets work out for you like the Viola/Knoblauch trades but unfortunately I don’t see it.
Sean,
So you are saying the Twins got a good deal for Santana. And you like he direction the team is going. That’s good.
Myth1: Not getting high praised prospects is a good thing because the Twins no talent.
Fact: The Twins will live with this deal and I hope it works out for them.
alright
so, yanks/sox better hope their kids develop because now their is enormous pressure on them.
hughes/kennedy/joba and whoever else really need to step it up..
there is no johan to save that rotation anymore..
next thing
ROUNDABOUT
Joe Nathan.. trade deadline..
yanks will be interested… don’t you think???
kennedy/ and another prospect..
cuz closers and deadline deals bring back a good bounty
the bergen record a baseball info bible. what the hell is the bergen record?
Time for non Twin fans and met’s, Yankee’s, Redsox fans to go away from a Twin’ blog.
Every body can second guess now and rip the Twins management-.
Go away.
Twins will be fine and lets see what the 4 players develop into.
Win Twins!
i think nathan could net a phil hughes or a chase headly or a bj upton or a chase headly but if they got a top prospect like that at the trade deadline it would only be a minor prospect with it…
When Hunter entered the bigs, he was known for a good glove and speed but being an undisciplined hitter…consistently flailing at breaking pitches on the outer half. Sound familar?
Dennis. Sorry to push you over the edge, but you were not able to counter anything I said. Lots of question marks and a repitition of someone else’s arguments do not a case make. Secondly, I was not the one that made the comment about coming back from Tommy John surgery. The Pohlads are cheap. While the local columnists were praising the Pohlad’s for picking up the extra $20 million on the stadium (which the taxpayers got stuck for), they promptly got it right back in this trade. The Twins have not been a serious post-season contender since 1991. Remember that they only playoff series they have won was the gift from the A’s in 2002. So once again Dennis I apologize for bringing you down by speaking the truth. Wake up! You are talking like the rube that the Mets’ fans think we are.
seems to me the question of whether the Twins are committed is if they sign Nathan and then use the xtra money for something else - any GOOD veteran Pitchers out there to sign? Haven’t seen any names. If they go into the season with Nathan unsigned and nothing to add to the $53 million payroll I won’t be buying any tickets.
Roundabout:
I will admit I like the direction the team is going. I loved the trade for Delmon Young as I think all pitching prospects are a gamble.
Position prospects usually are more of a known commodity. I guess my point about comparing Lester and Hughes to Mulvey Humber and Guerra is that all of these pitchers are one injury away from never having a major league career. We could have traded Santana to the Yankees and taken Cabrera who I believe has a lower ceiling than Gomez and Hughes and filler.
If Hughes gets hurt or doesn’t materialize, the deal is instantly a loser. With the mets deal we have 3 pitching prospect lottery tickets which to me is better than the one we would have had with the Yankees deal.
We know that Humber was just as highly regarded as Hughes coming out of college after he pitched the clincher in the College World Series for Rice. He had Tommy John surgery two years ago and it has been a fact that it often takes 2 years for players to fully recover and return to their pre-surgery velocity and form. He’s older because he was a college guy, so he’s 25, but the only thing scouts have been down on him the past year was regarding his decreased velocity. He’s a gamble, but to label him as a peak #4 starter I think is just as unfair as labeling Hughes a #1.
Busy day at work so I can’t read all these posts. This question could have been asked already.
LENIII-
Do you think Gomez will be our CF to start the year or do you think Bill Smith will go after Patterson/another FA?
Tyler - I thought I was done (I’m getting no work done today), but I’ll make an exception for you.
I agree that BS could have gotten better deals earlier. I personally would have decided my favorite between the Hughes deal (which may never have been officially on the table) and the two Red Sox deals and pulled the trigger. But to call Smith an idiot for not doing that is very disingenuous. Back then, EVERYONE (both here and nationally) were saying the BS should wait and he’d get better offers. About the only national guy thinking the offers were good at that time was Keith Law. When I expressed his opinion here I was roundly ripped.
If I’m wrong about this, I’m sorry, but I recall you demanding that BS hang tough. Such as “if the Yankees don’t give us Hughes, Melky, Kennedy and Jackson it’s not good enough”, or “if you are firm the Red Sox will combine Ellsbury and Lester since they don’t want the Yankees to get him”. That sentiment was everywhere. But now, human nature being what it is, no one is owning up to that.
Had BS taken one of those deals, I GUARANTEE you he would have taken major flak from all sides for caving in to the big boys. It was a “rookie mistake”, and everyone would know from now on he could be taken advantage of.
hunter still flails at outside breaking pitches…lol
Santana wanted to go to a place where there was a chance to win it all. Where the big off season move is not bringing in a retread from Japan, or a broken down pitcher(s) and hoping to get lucky. A place where they’re not happy to finish .500 and a place where they remember to sell when you can not when you have to.
I assumed all of the information that LaVelle mentioned above. Otherwise this trade would not have made sense. I am still baffled a bit as to the direction the twins are taking. This trade would seem to indicate a rebuilding. However, if the Twins are really rebuilding then why sign Everett or Lamb? IF you are rebuilding then turn those spots over to Harris and Buscher and see what you have. If you are not rebuilding and you think you have a shot to compete then why not get a single major league ready player for Santana? This to mee is the confusing part. It is also a sign that Smith basically acted out of desperation and that he did what he said he would not do…basically accept the only offer out there no matter what it was. The 4 youngsters may turn out to be great players in the future. But tht does not explain the signing of veterans to me. Also, why keep Nathan? If you are rebuilding then package him and get some more youth. One more point…3 more young pitchers? I thought we had a glut of young pitchers? Appernetly some of them ar not as good as marketed or Smith ha some other moves up his sleeves. I can not believe that Smith will go into the seaaon with the team the way it is now. I have to believe that he will make his mind up to rebuild or compete.
Dewey-
“WOW! We are a Country at war…….men and women losing their lives…..we are in a recession…….people are losing their homes…and you folks are upset about people making millions and millions of dollars…..greed does not get one to heaven.
Dewey Moede”
Shut it.
Fact: The chances of Johan being worth anywhere near $20 - $25MM a year for the last 2- 4 years of his impending Mets contract are extremely remote. It’s a huge gamble that we were smart not to make (not that Santana would’ve even accepted it, and not that that was the Pohlad’s motivation).
Fact: Bill Smith and his staff are smarter than all of us on this site when it comes to judging prospects.
Fact: The 4 prospects we traded for are a far better bet than the 2 draft picks that we’d have received for Johan otherwise. We’ll see this born out by the picks we get for Torii and Silva. Have fun with that.
Bottom line: Bill Smith has made moves that position us VERY well to compete in 2010. No team can contend every year, and keeping Santana/extending his contract at huge $$ figures was NOT going to get us a world series shot. It would only hamstring our payroll and ability to obtain effective players at fairer costs.
MH,
Maybe, the Yanks will be interested in Nathan. It depends on the development of Melky and Kennedy. The Yanks also could stay in-house and groom Chamberlain as River’s successor.
Gobble:
Google the Record of Hackensack, aka Bergen Record.
Klapisch of the Bergen Record (a good sized paper outside NYC) covered the Yanks and Mets and other professional teams for the NYC dailies. He knows his stuff and certainly has more contacts than LEN3.. It’s funny LEN3 maintained the Yanks were players, despite all other reports, and the Red Sox were still offering two deals. When crunch time came, Yanks offered NOTHING and Red Sox had pulled both Lester and Ellsbury. Now LEN3 is saying he can’t buy the Yankees’ argument that finances played a part, despite Hal Steinbrenner saying so. Many Twins fans here are upset because they were led astray by bad reporting that their team was getting potentially big-time players. The evidence was to the contrary.
http://www.twincities.com/twins/ci_8114972?nclick_check=1
Joe Nathan is a great player and an even better person. I hope he stays in MN.
Roundabout
yeah I am not talking that Joe Nathan takes over for Rivera
I am just talking about a playoff push..
Nathan will not want to be a setup guy so i dont see him signing with the yanks, but it could be a situation like gagne and the sox..
bullpen help is huge come sept
La Velle, Do we expect a news conference by Bill Smith regarding the trade once it is a done deal? It would be wonderful to know what other offers were on the table. Why he took this one. What his other off seeson plan are now.
Just a pat on the back for the bloggers in this room! Unlike the Viking blog, you all know something about the game of baseball.
I would never want to sign Santana for 6/130 which is what the Mets are reportedly going to pay
Dennis
I see your point, and yes i made similiar statements, but i was under the impression that something must be in the works with the yankees and redsox meaning they were aggresive in calling him and wanting Santana. It appears that was not the case. Smith should have been more agressive then working out a deal with the Mets to include Pelfry.
I guess we will never no, smith was under a lot of pressure so maybe calling him an idiot would cross the line. I just think that waiting till the last time to start hard negoitiating is very stupid. If the Yankees and RedSox weren’t bitting he should have started negotioating with the Mets weeks ago.
Pete - Ok, I’ll bite. But if I get fired for not doing any work….
You are correct about questions not making a cogent argument. However, I’ve posted detailed arguments at least three times each to each of those multiple points over the past two days. I do realize people can’t read all these posts if they want to have a life. So I’ll do it again, and try to be brief.
1. Carl is a cheap SOB with a philosophy of life I find repugnant. However, he runs his team like a business like everyone else, including the Yankees. The Twins budget 50-55% of revenue for salaries, and they’ve adhered to that for several years. That puts them in the upper half of MLB teams. As much as I don’t like Carl, following the 50-55% rule is good enough for me.
2. The Yankees spend more because they have FAR more revenue than other teams. Baseball needs a salary cap, but they don’t have one.
3. Johan had to be traded because he didn’t want to be here, and rejected the Twins last ditch $100M, 5 year proposal. Anything more is insane for almost any team, for multiple reasons.
4. Johan imposed a deadline of yesterday. By then the Yankees and Red Sox had cut back on their supposed earlier offers. There truly was no choice at that point. Based on multiple sources the deadline was real.
5. Everyone on here seems to know exactly how these prospects will do, but NO ONE does. The assumption by you and many others is that since it’s true that some prospects fail therefore it’s true that these prospects will fail, and hence we got “nothing”.
6. Gomez is not a can’t miss guy because virtually no one is. But his ceiling is extremely high. Neither you nor I have any idea how close he’ll come to that ceiling.
7. Humber and Mulvey may be 4th starters, but we don’t know that either. Seth Stohs says both have a “chance” to still be #2 starters. Humber was the #3 overall pick in his draft, and last year was his first year back from TJ surgery. The curve ball (his best pitch) is usually the last thing to come fully back after TJ. The jury is out on that.
8. It is simply a fact that now TJ pitcher USUALLY come back from the surgery. The doctors say it’s not uncommon to actually come back stronger than before.
liondragon - No way does Nathan get you a Hughes or Upton. Johan couldn’t land those players and Nathan is also a FA. Keep dreaming.
Sean - You are really drinking Smith’s kool aid.
Best players in the deals.
1. Hughes. Was named the #1 pitching prospect in baseball last year. Sure Joba has passed him, but he is damn good.
2. Ellsbury. The guy changed the Sox lineup when they finally played him. He is that good.
3. Lester. Andy Pettitte before he took HGH. Still will be a good pitcher.
5. Kennedy. Four above average major league pitches and dominates at every level he has pitched. He throws harder than you think. Just look at his numbers.
5. Melky. The only thing Gomez has over Melky is speed. Melky is better at everything else and can hit, something Gomez hasn’t yet proved.
We didn’t get even one of these guys. Instead we got a speed guy who needs to prove he can hit for average and develop some power. Two crummy back of the end rotation guys. And one 19 year with a below average fastball who is 3 to 5 years away. UGH!
La Velle: I know you need to keep a good working relationship with Twins management, but I think you’re really letting them off the hook. Bill Smith should have known that the Yankees offer was never going to improve since there was already a huge debate in the Yankee organization whether or not to include Hughes at all. And the Tuesday deadline set by Santana and his agent should not have been a surprise. Haven’t they had ongoing contract negotiations? Didn’t the topic of how long will we allow this to drag on ever come up? I agree 100% that Santana had to be traded. And Smith probably did the right thing yesterday. But let’s be honest. He screwed up big time back in December by not accepting the best offer. He bluffed and lost big time.
Now they should package a few outfielders and pitchers for Kazmir, and pay him the 80 mill they were going to give Johan.
After this season look at the potential free agents, look at the SP talent, thats why the yanks and probably red sox according to the bergen record, would not relent. They wouldn’t give up the money and talent when after next year they could get guys like Lackey, Sabathia, and Sheets in addition to their hot prospects. I added relief pitchers because there’s a ton of talent there as well. There is also a couple of hot 1B that the yanks will need after giambi, abreu, and friends come off the books as pointed out in an earlier post.
Starting Pitchers
Kris Bensen BAL
A.J. Burnett TOR (may opt out)
Paul Byrd CLE
Jon Garland LAA
Tom Glavine ATL
Mike Hampton * ATL
Rich Harden * OAK
Orlando Hernandez NYM
Jason Jennings HOU
Randy Johnson ARZ
John Lackey * LAA
Esteban Loaiza OAK
Braden Looper STL
Derek Lowe LAD
Pedro Martinez NYM
Matt Morris * PIT
Mike Mussina NYY
Jamie Moyer PHI
Mark Mulder * STL
Carl Pavano NYY
Brad Penny * LAD
Odalis Perez KC
Oliver Perez NYM
Andy Pettitte NYY
Mark Prior CHC
Horatio Ramirez SEA
C.C. Sabathia CLE
Ben Sheets MIL
John Smoltz * ATL
Julian Tavarez BOS
Steve Trachsel BAL
Brett Tomko LAD
Claudio Vargas MIL
Woody Williams HOU
Randy Wolf SD
Relief Pitchers
Tony Armas Jr. PIT
Luis Ayala WAS
Joe Beimel LAD
Joe Borowski CLE
Juan Cruz ARZ
Ryan Dempster CHC
Brendan Donnelly BOS
Octavio Dotel ATL
Scott Downs TOR
Alan Embree * OAK
Scott Eyre CHC
Kyle Farnsworth NYY
Casey Fossum TB
Brian Fuentes COL
Aaron Fultz CLE
Tom Gordon * PHI
LaTroy Hawkins NYY
Mark Hendrickson LAD
Trevor Hoffman SD
Bobby Howry CHC
Jason Isringhausen STL
Steve Kline SF
Brad Lidge PHI
Brandon Lyon ARZ
Damaso Marte * PIT
Tom Martin COL
Julio Mateo PHI
Guillermo Mota MIL
Joe Nathan MIN
Will Ohman CHC
Hideki Okajima * BOS
Darren Oliver LAA
John Parrish SEA
Chris Reitsma SEA
Dennys Reyes MIN
Juan Rincon MIN
Francisco Rodriguez LAA
Brian Shouse MIL
Rafael Soriano ATL
Jorge Sosa NYM
Mike Stanton * CIN
Salomon Torres * MIL
Derrick Turnbow MIL
Oscar Villarreal ATL
David Weathers CIN
Dan Wheeler TB
Dave Williams NYM
Matt Wise NYM
with the money pohlad save he will make another homo movie like brokeback batbouys or brokeback pitchers mount or brokeback catchers handy
Personally I like the trade, I wish they would’ve pushed for Church or Pelfrey and pushed out one of the pitching prospects. I think that that Red Sox offers were a joke and the Yankees are a joke as well. Santana didn’t want to stay in MN and the Twins had no choice. Santana is the best pitcher in MLB, but he will be grossly overpaid. Any team that pays a starting pitcher that much is rediculous.
Tyler - See, Troy and Travis just proved my point. And Pete, I rest my case about people willfully ignoring the facts. I’ll say it again, EVERYONE was saying Smith would get more if he held firm. Neither the Red Sox nor Yankees wanted the other guys to get him. The salary didn’t matter. And now everyone is saying he overplayed his hand by waiting.
Tyler - I admire that you at least admitted you were one of those people previously demanding that he hold firm.
Human nature is such a humorous thing.
Dickey - As a gay guy I have to say - keep the homophobic blather to yourself.
Jason - I read a few days ago that the Twins like Humber better than Pelfrey. I wanted Pelfrey myself, but I’ll take the Twins’ opinion over mine.
Wow, lighten up people. Only three of twenty-nine MLB teams even made an legitimate offer for Santana. Doesnt that say something to the fact that the other twenty-six clubs didnt see the value in paying Johan the kind of money he is expecting to see from the Mets? Johan is a great pitcher, but he will only play in at most 1/5 of the teams games. What if he was to get injured, or his recent problem of giving up homeruns turns out to be more than a quirk? It would not make sense for the Twins to try to keep him by matching an offer of that size. It sounds as if he wanted to go to the east coast, and with his no-trade clause and his statement that he would not accept a mid-season trade he could pretty much dictate where he would go and when. Maybe Mr. Smith should have jumped at one of the offers submitted by the Sox or the Yankees, but I am sure he would have been criticised for that too.
The Twins have a great core group with Mauer, Morneau, Cuddy & Young. They have a lot of good arms coming up through the system. The players we received from the Mets all appear to have the potential to play (& possibly star)in the big leagues (in spite of the opinions of some on this board), so keep an open mind and see what happens in the next couple years.
Oh, and to call the Pohlads cheap after giving Morneau and Cuddy generous muti-year deals last week, as well as the millions they put up for stadium over- runs is ridiculous.
Go Twins!!
LENIII, I absolutely agree with you, however, I think Bill Smith was ouclassed. He could have had better deals from either of the “Beasts in the Easts” What might save him is the Mets ability to destroy great ballpayers i.e Pedro, Glavine, Mo Vaugh, Beltran, Delgado, etc etc. He played his hand like a mom and pop investor holding on to a stock waiting for it to go higher. Trades are like the stock market. It fluctuates and if you hold on for too long it could come back to bite you. Greed got the best of him.
I think the Mets getting in the picture only hurt the Twins chance of obtaining more players. Think about it, it was perfect for the Yankee’s and Red Sox. They downplay thier offers making the Mets the best option for the Twins. They keep their young talent and Santana is in the NL. The Yankees and Red Sox offers were not legit and no one in their right mind would’ve have traded Santana after the first offer was made. (in reference to the best offer made by the Yankees)
Dennis it’s good to be happy.
How does this trade make our top ten prospects look now. Is there much movment or does it stay about the same. Also does this Gomez kid stand a chance he was the top player traded for an all star cy young award winning gold glove winning pitcher playing in a position where we lost a team leader gold glove winning fan favorite Center fielder. I think the if he thinks that there was a lot of pressure in NY which there was but we when from Kirby to Torri and now to this kid. He might be under more pressure here than he would have ever been in in NY. I dont think this kid has the mettle to do it.
That’s true Dennis. It’s just hard to put a lot of hope on a pitcher who has already had Tommy John sugery and barely made it out of the minors.
Chad - You’re right!!!
Jason - I’m just trusting the Twins’ scouts on that one. And the Metro2008 guy from NY who posted last night. He was highly complimentary of Humber.
Jason you are a fool, I hope you stay in AZ. Humber was the 3rd overall pick in 2004.
MH,
I dont think the Yanks will trade kennedy and Cabrera for Nathan as a stop-gap measure
Liriano’s tendon:
How can you possibly know that Gomez doesnt have the mettle to handle the “pressure” of being the Twins’ center-fielder? Are you his psychiatrist?
After all the pissing and moaning, it’s time to move on.
Humber, Mulvey, Blackburn, and Duensing will pitch the team into the playoffs!!! Period….but it’ll be for the Rochester Red Wings.
Twins will be just fine:
LF - Young will be a stud
CF - Gomez, Pridie. One will excel
RF - Cuddy
1B - Morneau…Mr. MVP
2B - Harris or Casilla. One will excel
SS - Everett has a golden glove
3B - Lamb should fill in better than Punto with Buscher as back up.
DH - Monroe or Kubel. No Rondell so…
C - Mauer. Need not say more
RPs - Nathan, Neshek, Guerrier, Crain, Reyes and Rincon. One of the best in MLB.
SPs - Liriano, Baker, Bonser, Slowey, Perkins. Young and unproven. Weakest spot on the team.
Still a pretty solid team. Might not be championship quality but they should win more than 50% of their games.
I think that this entire situation is just the reality of being a Twins fan. It’s just the reality of liking a team that is small market and in the AL. It’s a different kind of cheering; you know that the Twins aren’t going to make it to the playoffs year in and year out, but they will always have a pretty young team and it is exciting to watch talent develop on your team.
I am excited for the season and to watch the plethora of young talent.
Does anybody have any thoughts on Gomez starting the year in CF? Good question Liriano’s Tendon. I’m interested in a revised top 10 prospect list too.
The best thing about this trade is Santana is in the NL.
The Twins weren’t going to win it this year or next year.
Take a look at the list of FA pitchers that are coming out in the next couple of years. This trade sets up the Twins for the run they and we all really want is to be great in 2010.
With the money saved from Torii, Silva and Santana the Twins should be looking at the big move next year for Sabathia,Lackey or one of the other studs that comes on the market. Plus signing Nathan to 4 more years. An looking at a 3B with power would be nice.
I still say they should look this year at Bedard before the deal gets completed with Seattle.
Liriano,Bedard(have for two more years on the cheap sign him to 3 more years at 15M), plus 3 of what is left — Baker, Blackburn, Slowey, Mulvey, Humber,Perkins, Boof,etc…
I honestly thought we’d be talking about the minnnesota next ace with the first name Phil, last name ending -ghes not -mber
GoGomez, that was before his sugery. You never now how someone’s arms is going to react. He’s yet to really come back in pre-surgery form. I’m not saying he is a bad player. Only time will tell, so you can save your statements for someone else.
The twins have a lot of young arms, and there is no sense in overworking them. At the same time we don’t want to burn out the bullpen.
How about starting the season with a six man rotation for the first couple months and giving as many guys as possible a chance to make it?
Everyone needs to relax. The Twins are building for 2010. Period.
The next two years are for developement. If our young talent develops as expected look for the Twins to make a free agent move after 09 that makes a splash. With Hunter and Santanna gone we are able to keep Morneau, Cuddy and extend Mauer when his deal is up. Add Delmon to that list and I would much rather have those four guys than one guy playing only once every 5th day. The Twins just avoided becoming the Timberwolves of MLB - Paying everything to one guy and being unable to have anything else around him.
Scott Baker 26
Nick Blackburn 25
Boof Bonser 26
Carmen Cali 29
Jesse Crain 26
Julio DePaula 25
Matt Guerrier 29
Francisco Liriano 24
Joe Nathan 33
Pat Neshek 27
Glen Perkins 24
Dennys Reyes 30
Juan Rincon 29
Kevin Slowey 23
Joe Mauer 24
Jose Morales 24
Mike Redmond 36
Brian Buscher 26
Alexi Casilla 23
Adam Everett 30
Brendan Harris 27 Garrett Jones 26
Mike Lamb 32
Justin Morneau 26
Nick Punto 30
Michael Cuddyer 28
Jason Kubel 25
Darnell McDonald 29
Craig Monroe 30
Jason Pridie 24
Delmon Young 22
Ages of Twins Players
Gomez comes in at 22
Humber at 25
Mulvey at 22
Guerra at 19
Oldest Player - Mike Redmond.
Not bad when your backup catcher is the oldest guy on your team.
Outfielders - Monroe/Mcdonald oldest two guys.. Don’t expect anything from Mcdonald, He will be AAA
But that is a seriously, YOUNG outfield
take out Monroe/Mcdonald
kubel/cuddy/young/gomez/pridie average 24.2 years of age! young and talented!
everett/punto/lamb are the oldest infielders we have. everett and punto can play defense, but hitting is suspect. so lets look at the rest
harris/morneau/casilla/buscher .. this could perhaps be the twins infield in a couple years. average age - 25.5 again, very young
Oldest pitcher is Nathan at 33. reyes 30, guerrier 29.
figure baker/liriano/slowey/boof/humber as your starting rotation this year
24.8 years of age..
now, figure in 2010 when the stadium opens. all of these kids will still be 30 and under..
i for one think the twins are young and have many skills.. trading johan was something that had to happen.. and now it did.. but look at the young talent..
how many teams can say that??? Florida! thats its probably!
Hawk
You seriously think the Twins will go over .500 next year? That is ridiculous. They are playing in probably the second hardest division in baseball. There starting rotation has about 120 starts combined and their offense has 4 players that can both hit and field. I bet this team loses 90 games this season.
Now I don’t think that is a bad thing as the young kids learn how to play and get experience. But with people like you expecting a .500 record I sure hope they don’t have too much pressure on them.
Smithers can inhale a fart out of pohlads a** for this trade bluff screw up
So much for the, “Bill Smith is holding all the cards. No Jose Reyes, NO DEAL!!!!” attitude of December. Forget Reyes, the Twins couldn’t even get Fernando Martinez.
Here’s to the first season in the Post Santana Era…
TLK,
The Twins have been building for three years from now for the last 15.
Jama I would say that the AL central is the best division in MLB, especially after DET offseason.
detroit is a ghetto slum so how come they can spend and spend and we never do
Anyone who expects the Twins to compete year in and year out should like another team, I suggest the Yankees. They might be a better team for all of you faint of heart, whiny *******.
Since Billy Smith pulled off this great trade, let’s see Smith trade 4 of our prospects, but not our number 1 hitting or number 1 pitching prospect, for one of the best hitters in the league. See just how ridiculous that sounds.
From Len3’s column of Dec. 10th: “Teams might be learning that Smith is new to the game but shouldn’t be treated as such. When asked if he sensed that teams were trying to size up the rookie GM last week, Smith replied, ‘I’m hoping they think I’m an easy mark.’”
Looks like you should’ve spent more time worrying that you actually weren’t, Bill.
Carl Pohlad isn’t a billionaire for not knowing how to spend his money and everyone who constantly criticizes how he spends his money is probably poor and should vote for Hilary Clinton.
stop with the ridiculous al central is the best division crap. anyone who knows anything about baseball knows the east is the most difficult league to get a leg up in with the most consistent postseason contenders.
Dennis. Thank you for comment to dickey boy about keeping th homophobia off this site. Well said. I hear you about not getting any work done today. You and I are in complete agreement on points 1,2, and 3 in your e-mail from 11:36. On points 5,6,and 7, you are saying that time will tell and we don’t know what these guys will do. I completely agree, but you have to admit, it doesn’t look hugely promising at this point. On point 4, I agree that as of yesterday Smith had no choice, but the fact is he (Smith) and Ryan before him, painted themselves into a corner by asking for too much. On point 8, I repeat that I was not the person who made the claims about Tommy John surgery and am in fact, very hopeful for Liriano. My main point is just that the Yankee and Red Sox deals I could easily live with, but this deal stinks.
How is ghetto Detroit over there spending $$$ and we can’t
I would say that the best division is definately argueable and the league is catching up to the historically dominant AL east. IF you are counting CLE or DET out of the WS, you should probably get your head checked.
AL central is the toughest division..
More power hitters, better pitching, better bullpens,
small market, small market, small market I am so sick and tired of that word. They should just call it mean and stingy. How the heck is Detroit over there spending cash like it’s water
The Cheap Pohlads . Now that’s a laugh. Tally up the contracts that Hunter and Silva and Santana got from their new teams. Do It. Does it not tally up to more than 1 quarter of a BILLION $ ! That’s billion with a B. Then toss in what Pohlad did commit to Morneau and Mauer and Cuddyer and he is brushing up to 1 half a BILLION. For what- the salaries of 6 ballplayers. Some of you posters are nuts. Little over a decade ago Pohlad broke the then unheard of barrier of 3 MILLION$ contract to Puckett.
Jimmy Bee:
The Tigers were 6th in payroll last year which pretty much equates with the size of its TV market. The Twins were 26th in payroll which again is pretty much where they fall in TV market. Bigger TV market = more $$$$!
I will repost this for you Jimmy Bee.
Anyone who expects the Twins to compete year in and year out should like another team, I suggest the Yankees. They might be a better team for all of you faint of heart, whiny *******.
Ron, I couldn’t agree with you more.
Well, here’s some 2008 odds on winning the World Series:
Boston: 7-to-2
Yankees: 5-to-1
Detroit: 5-to-1
Cleveland: 12-to-1
Toronto: 25-to-1
Minnesota: 30-to-1
Baltimore: 100-to-1
Royals: 200-to-1
So no, the AL Central isn’t the best division. At least according to the people who make money on figuring it out.
If Santana didn’t want to play here we should have said “fine” and benched him the whole season. Either that or kept him in for 130 pitches a game until his arm gave out. Santana is an ass, good ridance.
From Aaron Gleeman, one of the most insightful analysts out there (and someone I certainly don’t always agree with):
It seems natural that a team should be able to have its pick of elite prospects when trading away baseball’s premiere pitcher, but from the Twins’ perspective all they were truly shopping was one season of Santana. While that’s plenty valuable, getting four solid prospects for one season of any player seems reasonable. Of course, had the Twins kept Santana this season and simply let him walk as a free agent, they also would have gotten a pair of first-round draft picks as compensation.
Given that, what the Twins really gave up was one season of Santana and a pair of draft picks. That complicates things a bit, but four solid prospects still seems like a relatively palatable return given the added cost and uncertainty of draft picks. Still, my suspicion is that the Twins could have done better and perhaps cost themselves a chance to get the maximum return for Santana by attempting to squeeze extra value from teams.
So where was ARI and COL on that list last year for teams that might make it to the WS.
I would have told Santana and his agent this: We will make this trade happen before Spring Training and if you don’t like it, well then Johan can spend a miserable 2008 in Minnesota making his paltry $13 and hope he doesn’t get hurt and miss the BIG payday! Maybe the Twins would only get 2 draft picks, but Johan could end up with squat, especially if he had a bad year or got injured. I think they rushed the Twins into making a not so great deal, but only time will tell I suppose. To Johan I say, thanks for the memories, but don’t let the door hit you on the way out! It’s okay for players to try and find the best deal, but things have gotten out of hand and players aren’t worth what some stupid owners will pay to sign them!
luckylager,
not true. detroit is the 10th largest tv market. minneapolis is the 14th. not that big of a difference.
Well, those were all odds to WIN the WS; not make it. But…
Arizona: 22-to-1
Colorado: 25-to-1
To just MAKE it to the WS (which, again, wasn’t what the earlier #s were):
Arizona: 10-to-1
Colorado: 9-to-1
Reality Check - Your analysis is fine except for the most important part, which you conveniently chose to leave out. This deal could be analagous IF the Twins packaged the four guys and got A-Rod back, and THEN had to pay him more money than anyone else would have paid. Even that ignores the fact that the one guy would take up FAR more salary room for the Twins than Johan will take up for the Mets. Remember the Twins revenue is dwarfed by that of the Mets.
To jimmy bee:
Detroit with all the money they spent last year didn’t make the playoffs either. Nor did the Mets, even after they stole away the Twins star 2nd baseman Luis Castillo.
Funny how that works huh?
To Minnyisburning:
The East isn’t a “tough” division because you’ve got Boston or New York as one guaranteed spot out of four. And depending on how things go (which is the way they usually go) it’ll be the other in the Wild Card.
The East is two teams fighting annually over two playoff spots (which is it’s one of the most boring rivalries in baseball). This leaves the AL Central as 5 teams fighting over 1 (same for the West) spot.
My point is that in baseball anything can happen. Last year if you would’ve said that the 25th and 26th teams in payroll would be playing in the NLCS, you would’ve been laughed at.
Dennis - Liking Humber over Pelfrey is splitting hairs. Neither are the pitchers the Mets thought they were. Humber had surgery and clearly has lost something. Pelfrey only has one good pitch. But Pelfrey could have developed into a good power reliever. I’d rather a good power reliever than a below replacemnt level starter.
I could have lived with any deal as long as we got back either studs like Hughes or Ellsbury. But Smith couldn’t get either one. What a sad day for this franchise.
This Johan invoked Tuesday deadline narrative seems completely implausible and illogical to me. Consider, for example, if the Twins ignored his protestations. Does anyone think that Santana would’ve opted to play out the season for the Twins — and, in process, risk injury and/or poor performance — over a huge pre-season payday that comes a week, two weeks, or even a month from now (and carries no risk whatsoever)? Either the Twins grossly underestimated Johan’s risk aversion or they’re trying to smooth over a very (and rightfully) rumpled fan base.
Now that I’ve had a chance to drink a few gallons of Kool-Aid, I think this is a great deal for the Twins. We should be happy that we got rid of Santana’s salary, much less receive 4 maybe’s in return. Just think, in 4 or 5 years we may compete for a division title again. We don’t need to concern ourselves with winning the World Series as that is for the large market teams to worry about. Our goal should be to is to help them develop All Star players. It’s great, we get a never ending cycle of prospects and if they start producing we trade them for more prospects. It’s wonderful to be a Twins fan! Let’s just enjoy Morneau for a few years until he demands to be traded because he is tired of losing with no hope of competing for the World Series too. We don’t need Santana, Hunter, Moss, or Garnett. They have too much talent to pay here. (oops, play here, Freudian slip)
Mat - Size doesn’t matter (though don’t tell my friends that!!!). It’s the amount of the revenue. The Twins have been in the BOTTOM THREE in TV and radio revenue the past several years. I believe someone posted earlier that they were DEAD LAST last year. The revenue is what it is. Perhaps a comment on the nature of the fans in this market????
I would have to guess the odds of Tampa winning the series are close to 400-1.
Looking at that list doesn’t prove which division is better. It just proves to two largest markets are at the top of a weak division.
Mat, My point is the Tigers gross more money than the Twins. Their new stadium helps their bottom line too I’m sure.
Troy - All I’m saying is that I’ll trust the Twins scouts on the Humber vs. Pelfrey thing more than I’ll trust my opinion or yours. And remember, a guy coming back from TJ surgery often doesn’t get it all back until the second season. We simply don’t know what the Twins’ scouts know.
To Mat:
Did you just cite Vegas odds as a way of measuring the strength of a division?
Of course the odds of Boston and New York making the playoffs are going to be higher than that of Detroit or Cleveland. When’s the last time that neither of the two Big East teams made the playoffs?
Part of the reason their odds of winning the series is so high is because their odds of making the playoffs are significantly higher.
And why is that? Could it be because it’s very unlikely that Baltimore, Toronto, or Tampa Bay can unseat one or both of those teams?
Meanwhile in the Central, you’ve got at least 3 of the five teams at this point ready to compete for the division title. And the other two won’t exactly be slouches either. So while those five teams are banging each other up and decreaing each others chances, New York and Boston are beating the stuffing out of their division rivals and coasting in to the playoffs.
Because remember, it’s not “Who will win in the East?” it’s “Who’s going to be the Wild Card?”
Check out this article. This makes me sick to my stomach.
“The Twins have been building for three years from now for the last 15.”
Thank you, thank you, thank you. No matter what Pohlad & Co. do, it’s never enough to put the team over the hump, they just tease and tease, getting our hopes up only to be let down in the end.
There are dirty words to describe a person like that on the dating scene.
jama-
Yes, I do think the Twinks can be above .500 this year. No, I don’t expect them to be a bunch of losers nor get used to losing like the T-Wolves crew. This is MLB and there are no free passes saying you can be “bad” now that Santana is gone. Offensively, the Twinks are better. RP are the same or better. SP could be a issue but we have a lot of ammo to throw at it.
Well, in advertisers’ minds, viewers = value. So if the Twins have done a bad job of capitalizing on the size of the market they’re in, they can’t just throw up their hands and say, “Well, we’re in Minnesota.” Minnesota isn’t actually that bad of a media market.
BFE, you really gotta get off your kick. Both Toronto and Baltimore would’ve been in the mix for 1st or 2nd of the Central if they had been in it.
The ironic/bizarre aspect of this offseason is that the Twins acquired more in trade value for Garza than they did for Santanna.
If that does not underline how truly screwed up Baseball economics are, then we are sadly mistaken.
Steve in Apple Valley
rghrbek I posted this earlier.
I think the Mets getting in the picture only hurt the Twins chance of obtaining more players. Think about it, it was perfect for the Yankee’s and Red Sox. They downplay thier offers making the Mets the best option for the Twins. They keep their young talent and Santana is in the NL. The Yankees and Red Sox offers were not legit and no one in their right mind would’ve have traded Santana after the first offer was made. (in reference to the best offer made by the Yankees)
LEN - With Johan gone, what is the projected Twins payroll for 2008? Is it listed somewhere else?
Alright then, if you don’t believe odds, then how about statistics?
The Central Division went 85-93 versus the East last year.
mat,
your counting the white sox and the royals? come on… try this…..
tigers indians twins vs…
red soxs yankees orioles..
Or here’s another one: Toronto had a higher winning %age against the Central than Cleveland did.
or toranto if you dont wanna count the orioles.. cause toranto is better…
tigers indians twins vs..
red soxs yankees blue jays..
i bet we won by a mile…
stickboy
The payroll is right around $53 million right now, I believe. I expect the Twins might sign Kenny Lofton though, I don’t know how they expect to get this payroll back up to around $70 million though. I guess that 50-52% of revenue spending on payroll doesn’t count this year.
I think Steve Phillips (for once) said it best…
“Bill Smith can’t create a market that isn’t there”
Truth be told, even the best offers were short of Santana’s worth… this was a no-win situation for Smith, the Twins and us fans.
Actually, other outlets are reporting that the Red Sox did NOT pull any of their offers off the table and that the offers floated had stayed essentially the same. Go to boston.com to read more — it seems that the Red Sox management, while not super upset about this, are a bit baffled because they think their offer was MUCH better than the Mets. Sneaky Omar pulled a fast one! good for him…as a Sox fan, I’m not crying. I love our team as it is. But I’m pretty shocked BS settled for so little, in the end.
i believe the payroll this year is 49 million.. it was 67 i believe with santana this year.. even with the morneau and cuddy raise its still only 49.. maybe 50 max.. if we get rid of nathan? we may be spending less the the rays.. 43 mil..
more like 20% of our revenue not 50.. lol
Lessee…
Boston finished 12-9 versus Tigers, Indians, Twins.
Yankees finished 15-6
Toronto finished 11-12
So, as a group, they finished 38-27. That’s hardly the Central teams, “winning by a mile.
If you people think it’s bad here, go somewhere else like Texas and become a Rangers fan. All I’ve read on this blog is a bunch of whining, oh we could have gotten this deal, or we should have taken that offer. This is a great deal for this club going in to a new stadium. Did anyone ever think the Twins would pull together in 1987? No way, how about in ‘91? Did anyone here think Johan would be as good as he was when the Twins took him from the Marlins?
This is a young and very talented team. Now let’s support these players and watch them grow in to something special!
I feel for you Twins fans.Pohlads only concern is finacial…putting a good triple AAA team on the field is fine with them..this was the cheapest way to go….however,You do have some good players…. but huge holes remain in your lineup…none where addressed in this trade…Hughes is a #2 or #3 starter and Cabrera is going to start in CF for the Yankees…I was relieved that the Twins ownership decided the Mets deal was the best for Johan the best picher in the game today ….I know the Yankees spend $$$$$$ but they are fun to watch and when I go to MLB game I want to see a MLB team on the field…I believe Nathan is the next money saving move ?????
Payroll is now at 58.65mil for 25 players assuming a serf replaces Santana - that’s including Cuddyer and Morneau’s bonuses.
If they bring in yet another outfielder I will gouge my eyes out. Well, not really - but it’s time to see what the kids have.
If the Twins are dead last in TV revenue, and there is no interest in the team, why the heck are millions of taxpayers helping pay for a new stadium??????
santana played this perfectly. the mets are now behind the 8 ball having to sign him for top $$. he is not taking a chance of getting hurt or having a bad yr before fa and it was appearing the the sox and yanks didn’t want to pay him the # yrs he was asking. the mets now don’t have much choice but to give him what he wants.
the ??? is what if they don’t and the trade falls through? how could he come back and pitch for the twins this year?
Eli -
My question would be “What do they mean by ‘essentially the same’?” If the marquee name in each deal was either pulled back or if one of the add-on players was removed, I can see BS not wanting to go that route.
And hey, maybe Johan said, “I want to go to the Mets.” I would have preferred one of the Boston deals myself but since Johan did a 180 turn in his attitude lately, it’s better to cut and run while the getting’s good. No sense making even more drama (if that’s possible) by not showing Johan the door he wants to leave through. And one, in hindsight, I hope dearly hit him square in the rear as he left.
From Rob Neyer of ESPN, a guy whose calling card is that he doesn’t follow “conventional wisdom” but tries to dig beneath the surface of things. (He was one of the first national guys to start championing Bert Blyleven for the HOF, thanks to some innovative statistical analysis he had done.):
One good thing: Say what you want about owner Carl Pohlad’s unwillingness to dip into his own large pockets, but he’s run his franchise with a steady, patient hand. Assuming you’ve hired the right people, organizational stability is a great asset, more valuable than some other team’s Grade A prospect. In our rush to judgment it’s tempting to cry that the sky is falling. It’s not. Yes, it would have been nice for the Twins if they could have acquired the next Grady Sizemore, and that’s probably not Carlos Gomez. You know what, though? It’s probably not Jacoby Ellsbury or Melky Cabrera, either. We shouldn’t forget that predicting the collective future of four young baseball players is neither easy nor precise, and we should allow for the distinct possibility that in five years Bill Smith will smell like a rose.
Giving Santana a six-seven year contract is nuts. Usually such a deal bites the payer of the contract, not the payee.
The Twins have been a competitive, divisional champion for the better part of a decade. Why is that? By spending big money on a few players, or by investing wisely in prospects, bringing them up through the farm system together and letting them gel as a team?
How many division championships have the Yankees won lately? Cubs? White Sox? Orioles?
I’ve followed the Twins for most of my adult life. It’s been good to see them be successful with what they’ve got.
Most of you guys are upset with the deal. Try living in Chicago and listen to the bullc**p the Cubs management feeds us every winter/spring. Hey, great news everybody, Ryan Dempster is our number five starter! Kerry Wood is our new closer! We have five second basemen on our 40-man roster but we have no legit shortstops! Center field? Um, don’t have an answer for that one yet. Maybe we’ll bring Patterson back. What’s wrong with that?
I’ll bet you a dollar that the Twins will be in the playoffs before the ‘beloved Cubbies’.
yankee fan6857 go to your own teams msg board, please.
it looks to me like santana wanted to go to the mets only. new stadium, big market, gets to hit and he’ll lower his era and add 2-3 so a game with the pitcher hitting. besides he’ll be the top dog, in boston he’d have less star power and it’s not the best park for a lefty to pitch in. they also said they wouldn’t give him the years. his agent was smart.
we could trade morneau to the saints and get rid of cuddy and mauer and see how old frugal pants could really sinch it up. CHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAP!!!!!!
Why can’t Carlos Gomez be the next Grady Sizemore? Is he not capable? He’s only 22!! What kind of numbers did Torii Hunter put up at age 22?
At age 22 Torii Hunter had lower numbers than Gomez. At 23 Hunter had 9HR’s and 35 RBI’s, a .255 avg. and a .309 OBP. When most people said he wasn’t going to amount to much, he did just fine.
continuation eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep!!!!!
I too was hoping for more but it sounds like Santana finally gave the ultimatum to the Twins. That aside, I will wait and see what the future brings for the Twins! I will always be a TWINS fan and hope that things will work out for the best! For those who can’t support the Twins jump on some other teams bandwagon! GO TWINS!
see how the situation goes on and on of the frugosity
The ownership is what it is. I’ve been a Twins fan for a long time and remember Hosken Powell, Bombo Rivera, Houston Jiminez and the Willie Norwood’s. When the Twins were winning the Central Division with a low payroll no one was complaining then.
La Velle,
I’m disapointed that you and others just can’t understand the Yankees. I guess, just because they’re the Yankees, they have to give up everything to get Santana. What? They finished, after a dismal start, a handful of games behind the Red Sox and with a postseason birth. They lost to Cleveland in a five game series. (Boston would have lost to Cleveland also if their series had been five games instead of seven.) I think the Yankees feel pretty good about their chances of reaching the postseason again without Santana. And now that Santana is headed to the NL, all the better. Plus they get to keep their prospects.
The Twins needed to think about the Twins and not the Yankees and Red Sox in this deal. Contrary to what some in here have said, many people–including myself–thought the Twins were overplaying their hand; they got greedy.
Now with that said, this deal with the Mets may turn out, in the long run, to be very good for the Twins. Santana moves to the NL and since they spent money on Morneau and Cuddyer and will probably have to spend more to keep some young promising players in the near future(Kubel, Young, Liriano, etc), they won’t have to pay big dollars to keep ML ready players in a trade.
Only time will tell how this deal works out for the Twins. But for the Mets, it works the minute Santana puts on a NY uniform.
Okay, let me throw this out there. What year do all these experts thinks the Twins will be favorites to win their division?
RealityCheck - I truly don’t mean this to sound nasty, but it probably will. But could you please try to think things through a bit before leaping on any opportunity to slam Carl.
1. It is precisely BECAUSE they are dead last in revenue that a partnership between ownership and fandom was a decent idea. Both sides have an interest in this endeavor. (Don’t get me wrong; if I were Carl I would have paid for it myself as my legacy.
2. The benefits accrue to both sides. Carl gets more profit. We get a much better setting for the sport. (The Metrodome is rated among the two worst baseball stadiums in the majors.) We also get a better team thanks to the 50-55% plan. More revenue = higher salaries.
Bingo - If you were thinking the Twins were overplaying their hand way back then, good for you. Actually, I was saying that too, and posted it here. But VERY few people thought or said that at the time.
THERE IS “AD” THERE IS “BC” THEN THERE IS “ACP” WHICH IN THE TWINS CASE STANDS FOR AFTER CARL POHLAD
Bingo,
While keeping your young talent is important, it is quite possible that the Yankees will, for the next couple years anyway, become the second best team in New York…
I think that probably matters to most fans.
Dennis,
I agree, in here very few thought that. But outside, different story.
I know why we didn’t take Hughes or Ellsbury it is because the Twins thought there contracts would get huge quick and didn’t want to get stuck in another Santana mess. So Carl told Smithers quantity over quality and we could save a buck on lower end starters and possibly utility players
We’ve got to let the new talent sort itself out….remember when Johan came? Not one of us knew he would amount to a 2 time Cy Young ace. When Nathan came, we thought, “well, we gave AJ away for nothin’”. So let’s give these kids a chance. That’s the art of baseball…it’s not a science. Maybe we’ve got another Johan, maybe we’ve got another Kyle Lohse (hope not!)….
I just don’t want to hear Johan say how much he wanted to stay in Minnesota if management had shown they wanted him, or that he was insulted by the mere $93 million he turned down…after all, he needs security for his family! When a guy decides it’s time to go, he needs to go. I don’t see this as a Pohlad or Smith problem…I see it as the sad result of baseball players and owners colluding to ridiculous salaries. How else could a lousy pitcher like Lohse earn $6 million a year…where’s the value in that?
Fred said:
“Because……… he was worth what the Twins got for him. It is what it is! The more he gets, the more I have to pay to watch the team.”
Something tells me that ticket prices aren’t going to drop now that Santana’s gone. I’m reading this morning that payroll is going to be in the $50 million range, which sure ought to be 50-52 percent of revenues even when you consider casual fans who won’t spend their money on a team they see as being in a fire sale — regardless of what we seamheads believe.
Morneau and Cuddyer were a PR ploy. Let’s see something concrete from management (and no, I don’t mean a stadium) as to how this team will stay competitive. With a straight face.
I will miss Santana. I wish him almost all the best. May he pitch as good or better than he ever did and may he lose every game 2-1. And may New Yorkers be kind to him.
RyanW,
You think Johan will make that much of a difference… We shall see. As Johan excells, Pedro, El Duque are a year older.
So is Moises Alou (they have endy Chavez)
It’s possible that the Twins could have gotten a better deal earlier in January but that’s not how the game is played. Bill Smith did a very good job with what he had to work with.
Any team in baseball would love to have Santana but the reality is only a few could afford the contract he wanted and even fewer had the prospects and or players that it would take to make the deal.
The Yankees played the Red Sox but neither team wanted to give up anything to get Santana and once they began to back off the Mets offer dropped. Good or bad that’s the way it is, we got the best offer we could at the time and I commend Bill Smith for the way he played the game.
Time to move on to Joe Nathan….
Ryan,
The Mets need more than Santana to be better than the Yankees right now. Their corner outfielders are just as old as the Yankees. There second baseman, as we all know, has knee problems. And the catching and pitching, even with Santana, may not be as good as the Yankees right now. Well, the catching is definitely not.
Maybe losing this year will rid us of the bitchy, whining little parasites that populate this blog and we will be left with only good fans for 2009.
gobbledygook guy had it right in his posts at 1:10 and 1:19. Santana has good reasons why he wanted to play for the Mets and played this perfectly.
Could anyone tell me what the twins payroll is compared to last years now with Santanas pay off of it?
we all know why we didn’t take Hughes or Ellsbury it is because the Twins thought there contracts would get huge quick and didn’t want to get stuck in another Santana mess. So Carl told Smithers quantity over quality and we could save a buck on lower end starters and possibly utility players
sid f u
jimmy,
How did you know I was talking about you?
Great guess.
Gomez should play in Rochester until the All-Star Break for two reasons:
1. It will help him develop his hitting skills.
2. To play him at Minnesota from the start of the season might qualify him as a “Super Two,” meaning he’ll be eligible for arbitration a year earlier than normal.
Platoon Monroe and Pridie and see how we do.
Did i ever tell you the story about a young bill pohlad. See as you all know Bill but what you don’t know is he has another brother “Tito”. See when Bill and Tito were young and they needed money they would of course ask there wise old father CP. CP in return would reach into his pocket and pull out a shiny, new, flashy Penny. Then he would say Bill grab this end and Tito you grab that end. He would say now the one who lets go of the penny first doesn’t get to keep the penny.
Jimmy Bee - Are you being a blog Nazi???
Dennis Miller provides the best analysis to date. Evenhanded, analytical, and resposible to the facts, as they are known. Link below…
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/sportsline/main10607179.shtml
That’s it i am off to picket CP. I am going to pull right up next to his horse drawn buggy and picket outside his studio apartment
Jimmy Bee - The more you talk the more you sound like a lazy, talent-less loser who resents Carl Pohlad solely because he’s wealthy. The rest of us are working today. I’ll bet you’re sitting there typing this while watching soap operas.
no dennis if i am sorry
Dennis actualy i am working. I just got a raise
jimmy bee,
you’re right. the twins should, in the future, avoid any players who have any sort of promise of stardom. that way they won’t be deserving of any money, forcing a trade. probably best is for the twins just to draft straight out of the northern league.
Uff Da! Holy Balls!
So….as Minnesota fan, is this the year (and maybe next) that doesn’t count? Why is this the team that seems like they can’t ever stand to hold onto any player with talent..?
As a fan, is it that important to you that the Twins have a better financial bottom line..?
The ‘Eastern Bias’ that’s flung around so much in the midwest falls a little flat when you’re begging that your best players be picked up by the ‘empires of evil’ out east.
So, what is a Twins Fan…..just a take-it-or-leave-it observer, or the heart of this organization?
It’s a little hard to pontificate about someone else’s payroll, when you’re begging for them to expand it so you can continue to shop at K-Mart…
Disband and start a Minor League team…it’s cheaper, and they say, alot more fun…
You betcha!
i think the twins will sing atlest one free agent sp befor spring traning
i also have a gut fealing that the twins will sing Joe Nathan to a new contact we wont go to the play offs untill atleast 2010 but you still need a good closer defently for this young of starting pitching staff and he sounding like he wants to stay with the twins what do you guys think?
the pitchers i think the twins have interst in are
Kris Benson sp
Livan Hernandez sp
Bartolo Colon sp
tony armas sp invite to spring traning
mike myers lhp to go with Dennys Reyes in the ball pen
invite to spring traning
i also think the twins still could signing Lofton to a one year deal so Carlos Gomez van have atleast half a year in triple a he could come up as early as june you can aways trade lofton or put him on the bench or you can have lofton and gomez on the twins and cut Craig Monroe i think lofton would be a good mentor for gomez and young not that Cuddyer wouldn’t be a good mentorfor young and gomez what do you think
Why the personal attack Dennis do you have extra special feelings for Bil or CP
Poochie - Thanks for the Miller link. Interesting story. Of course, a lot of posters have no interest in anything evenhanded or analytical. And I don’t mean anyone has to agree, either with me, or with anyone else.
jimmy bee,
You can’t be opposed to personal attacks.
That is all you do!
Here is a good question. With more and more players going after a higher salary do you guys think that the Twins will have anyone go there entire career with the Twins and if so who will it be in the future
Nice post Sid.
OK, take a deep breath, and chill. Santana made it clear before last season that if the Twins wanted to keep him, that was the time. He made it even clearer at last year’s trading deadline, and by waiving his no-trade clause, he made it possible for the Twins to get something back in exchange. Did BS & TR f*** up? Did the Pohlad’s “cheap out”? Matter of opinion, but show me an example of a 5-year-plus deal for a starting pitcher that worked out for anyone other than the pitcher…
I also cannot help but wonder if the Red Sox and Yankee deals were ever real, or if they were just designed to push each other to give up more for Santana. My suspicion is that when BS told everyone to make their final offers, what appeared on the table was much less than has been speculated in the press. Does anyone honestly believe that BS would choose this deal over Ellsbury-Masterson-Lowrie+one just because Ellsbury might cost more money than Gomez 5 years from now? If so, give me the name of whoever sold you what you’re smoking.
Prospects are just that, and from a balanced reading on the players received it sounds like we have two very sound prospects in Gomez and Guerra, a reasonable possibility in Humbert, and a suspect in Mulvey. If Gomez and Guerra reach their ceilings this is a good deal, and if one of the other two exceeds expectations, it could be a terrific deal.
Kurosawa says:
January 30th, 2008 at 1:57 pm
Gomez should play in Rochester until the All-Star Break for two reasons:
1. It will help him develop his hitting skills.
2. To play him at Minnesota from the start of the season might qualify him as a “Super Two,” meaning he’ll be eligible for arbitration a year earlier than normal.
Platoon Monroe and Pridie and see how we do.
isent he aready a super two because he played like 52 games last year for the mets and he came up in the end of may but i think two or three mounths would help Gomez alot i want to see how he does in spring training befor i say he needs to go down for half of the season but he doesneed time down there i think signing Lofton for the first part of the season would be good
No, but ALL you ever do is make comment after comment about how cheap Carl is. It was funny the first ten times or so.
And then when you said “f.u.” to someone you just opened yourself up to attack yourself.
Maybe everyone is too young to remember Calvin Griffith, but he used to own the Twins prior to Carl. When Carl bought the Twin, everyone sighed relief at last. Why did Blyleven leave the Twins? Calvin Griffith. Why did Carew leave the Twins? Calvin Griffith. I could keep going but you folks are pretty bright. Carl is tight but Griffith was worse.
City may ban elephant rides; circus might stay away
Shriners threaten to leave town if City Council approves changes to circus animal ordinance.
Jimmy bee,
Your explanation about the trade makes more sense.
Dennis sorry Sid sorry
Jimmy - Congrats on the raise! I just got one myself. I’m still a ways behind Johan though…..
AGREED, JOHAN GETS TAXED MORE THEN I MAKE DENNIS
Taking a page from Johan’s book, I spoke with management today and demanded they either trade me to somebody who will pay what I want, or I’ll just play out the remainder of 08 and go get my worth on the free market.
The box managed to beat me back to the desk.
If only the real world of business worked like the baseball world.
Hunter’s 1st years
Hitting Stats: Next Stats >>
SEASON TEAM G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG
1997 Minnesota Twins 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .000 .000 .000
1998 Minnesota Twins 6 17 0 4 1 0 0 2 5 2 6 0 1 .316 .294 .235
1999 Minnesota Twins 135 384 52 98 17 2 9 35 146 26 72 10 6 .309 .380 .255
Gomez should be able to do this!!
I handle verbal abuse OK. No problem.
But, how about the children and grandchildren and other loved ones of Carl, BS, TR, and Johan?
Dean time will tell. I actually have great faith with the trade because we seem to be able to make good pitchers out of just about anyone. I have a feeling we will be ok. If we can make a SP out of Boof we can make anything happen. Look out folks. Go Twins
Sid I actually have no prob with Santana. Carl hmmm…… I will work on it I promise
jimmy bee,
Then you are OK.
Peace, out.
Hm. So I wonder what the Twins would say if all the fans said, “Fine. You’re playing for 2010. We’ll see you then.”
Anyone hear who the Twins may be targeting now that we didn’t get the MLB ready centerfielder in this deal? Is there any chance they attempt to swing a deal with the Sox for Crisp, or is that just posturing before the Santana trade?
The word in Boston is that the Twins will send Gomez, Humber and Mulvey to the Sox for Crisp.
Johan was a great pitcher. It was time for him to go. Liriano will take his place. Bank on it. Starting staff will consist of Liriano, Baker, Slowey, Bonser and CAIN. TRADE NATHAN AND SPAN TO SAN FRAN FOR MATT CAIN AND PROSPECT. KEEP WORKING IT TWINS!
What if we do sign Lofton as kinda a mentor to Gomez? I don’t actually mind going with a very young team and I think we have a better hitting club than we did last year. Of course our pitching goes down without Santana but reality is Santana didn’t want to be here and was leaving no matter what. His attitude toward his teammates and management wasn’t real great last year. Maybe he’ll blame Omar Minaya for not getting good enough players if the Mets don’t win the World Series this year, the same way he attacked Terry Ryan the last couple seasons. I’ll always like Johan, but his departure has definitly affected the way I feel about him. My Johan Santana jersey has been officially put into storage for ever……..
If memory serves Santana received the “no-trade” clause due to winning the Cy Young in ‘06. The no-trade clause really hurt the Twins in getting a better deal. Did LaVelle vote for Santana that year? If so LaVelle screwed the Twins!! LOL
I doubt it on Crisp. Contrary to what everyone on here was saying when he was a potential trade piece, he is a valuable commodity that the Red Sox will shop around or be happy keeping if they don’t find the right offer.
Beanbrain There is no way that Crisp is worth three players of that caliber. I could see maybe Mulvey or two lesser pitching prospects but no way. The Twins should just let the youngsters play.
With the Bedard to Seattle apparently failing… and with our relationship with McPhail and our more dept minor league system.. you think the Twins could pull a Bedard Trade… Say Span, Benson(a young outfielder in Double A) + 3 pitching prospect… for Bedard… Anyone else like a Bedard-Liriano 1-2 punch
Mat says:
Hm. So I wonder what the Twins would say if all the fans said, “Fine. You’re playing for 2010. We’ll see you then.”
So you’re asking what would happen if the Twins stopped pandering to fairweather and bandwagon fans?
Well, for starters…Hunter and Silva would’ve been traded in June when they had significant value to contending teams. (Since it was clear Hunter didn’t want to stay and Silva was going to demand WAY too much money)
Johan would’ve likely been dealt in Decemeber for Ellsbury+ or Hughes+ (since the Twins wouldn’t have bothered trying to drag on negotiations for the sake of appeasing fans).
In short, Bill Smith’s job would be quite easier.
Does that answer your question sufficiently?
TwinsFan, that’s far too much to give up for Bedard.
twin fans sound like need more brains to really analyze this trade .mr.bill smith traded for the best 2 future top pitchers prospects available!!.deolis guerra and kid mulvey .gomez and humber are icing on cake.mr.smith beleved twins scouts and decided on mets kid pitchers over ny yankees super-hyped by ny media(twins scouts watched all top prospects in pitching)twins managers chose better futures in mets .mr. smith beleved twins scouts rather than trust
clown ny yankee biased such as buster olney,bill madden, joel sherman ,ken rosenthal,mike francesa , superclown espn morning show mike and mike .believe me twinki fans mr. phillips hughes is overrated and will bombed in 2008 season ( ny scouts lied about mr.hughes fastball,his fastball only goes to 91 mph,and he needs to develop other pitches,he was lit up in his last 4 starts at end of season,and ian kennedy is projected to be a # 4 or 5 in rotation!!!and melky in any other line up that is not yankees will hit what he hit first half of 2007 season = 2.22 BA
and mr. smith needed to send santana to NL .
mr bill smith is a smart man ,despite what bufoon gammons and olney said, in 2 years hughes ,melky,kennedy will be in some bottom feeder club struggling while you are beating yankees like a step-son with deolis guerra ( 6foot 5 ,230 lbs and only 21 yrs)
I don’t know if Baltimore is looking pitching or hitting in return. Would seem that we have the pitching prospects to at least attempt to swing a deal, however, we would be right back were we started. A good pitcher looking for a payday. Maybe since he pitched on the East Coast, he wouldn’t be so inclined to wanna get back there, however, he is only one year from a similar Santana problem. Don’t think it would be worth it, since we need some pitching in reserve since we are relying on so many young guns.
TwinsFan87,
You’re dreaming. Or smoking. Or something.
The Twins have basically just raised the white flag for the next 2-3 seasons and you’re trying to envision what sort of package they could put together for 2 years of an ace? What?
That kind of speculation just isn’t healthy for the soul.
Just think if TR would have re-upped Hunter and Santana when the price was right and then stepped down at the end of the season. Bill Smith takes over and completes the Tampa deal. Then the new contracts to Cuddyer and Morneau, although I don’t think Pohlad would have spent all that money. c-mauer
1b-morneau 2b-harris ss-everett 3b-lamb lf-young cf-hunter rf-cuddyer
dh-kubel/monroe
sp-santana,liriano,baker,bonser, slowey,perkins
bp-nathan,neshek,guerrier,rincon,crain,
reyes.
Do ya think that team would have put some butts in the seats??, instead of the team we will have for ‘08 and ‘09.
T,
that was just a suggestion i had, maybe its too much… in general, i am trying to say is don’t the Twins have a better farm system and could pull of trade for bedard that is better than what the M’s are offering for Bedard…
dont know if you have saw this or not but this is Carlos Gomez
2007 Winter League
Team League AVG G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS OBP SLG OPS
ESC DWL .262 29 107 17 28 4 0 1 6 35 7 16 10 6 .331 .327 .658
there not the best but there not bad for a 22 year old
koki7710,
You’re also crazy.
The Yankees offered: Kennedy, Cabrera, and something else.
The Twins said: We want Hughes.
The Yankees offered: Hughes, Cabrera, and one or two other prospects.
The Twins said no: include Kennedy.
The Yankees said no.
The Yankees took Hughes off the table.
The Twins this week said, “Well, OK, how about just Kennedy, Cabrera, and prospects?”
The Yankees said no.
Buying a stock at $30, watching it go up to $50, and then selling it at $15, is not believing your scouts or seeing things other people didn’t. It is watching your opportunity go up in smoke.
“bufftwins says:
January 30th, 2008 at 3:13 pm
Just think if TR would have re-upped Hunter and Santana when the price was right and then stepped down at the end of the season. Bill Smith takes over and completes the Tampa deal. Then the new contracts to Cuddyer and Morneau, although I don’t think Pohlad would have spent all that money. c-mauer
1b-morneau 2b-harris ss-everett 3b-lamb lf-young cf-hunter rf-cuddyer
dh-kubel/monroe
sp-santana,liriano,baker,bonser, slowey,perkins
bp-nathan,neshek,guerrier,rincon,crain,
reyes.
Do ya think that team would have put some butts in the seats??, instead of the team we will have for ‘08 and ‘09.”
What the hell is the point of even speculating? It’s all in the past now.
I wonder how long it will take Gardenhire to figure out a starting rotation and a starting lineup for 2008. Last year, he never did determine a starting rotation or team lineup. He seriously restricted the team’s performance. Gardenhire is obsessed with platooning and shuffling of the lineup to the detriment of the teams won-loss record. I think the Twins organizaion should bring up the coaches from Rochester to manage the team.
So lets take the $115 mill we spent on Cuddy and Morneau…add $5 mill to it.. look up Johan for 6 yrs at $120m.. bad idea??
I just read that the Orioles are not picking up the option on Kris Benson. I would like the Twins to take a chance on him or maybe Freddy Garcia or Bartolo Colon to add some experience to our rotation what do you guys think?
“So lets take the $115 mill we spent on Cuddy and Morneau…add $5 mill to it.. look up Johan for 6 yrs at $120m.. bad idea??”
Uh, it’s a little late now…thanks for playing though.
just asking for some speculation todd anthony…your take? I myself am fine with using the cash on the 2 bats.
“I just read that the Orioles are not picking up the option on Kris Benson. I would like the Twins to take a chance on him or maybe Freddy Garcia or Bartolo Colon to add some experience to our rotation what do you guys think?”
I may be feeling a little cantankerous today because of the typical fecklessness of bloggers here, but seriously, Garcia or Colon? 1.) Garcia isn’t expected to come back any time soon; 2.) Colon is an absolute SHELL of his former self. Benson…MAYBE.
What are you talking about? I guess I’m not following you. Are you proposing that instead of using the money on Cuddyer and Morneau, we should have used the money on Santana?
correct.
No, personally, I don’t think so. Just my opinion though. I like those deals a lot; of course, some of the naysayers and poo-pooers will decry the signing of Cuddyer though, even though many of them were clamoring for the Twins front office should have signed him months ago, or a year ago.
We finish no higher than 3rd with or without Santana. Although I’m tired of all the “wait til 2010!” talk. Think Yanks, Mets, Dodgers, Braves, Cubs, Bosox talk like that?
Agree TA
Yes the “wait til 2010″ talk is tiring, but just because some fans think this team may be ready to peak in 2010 doesn’t mean we have to give up hope on 2008. Yes the starting staff will be young, but they will be young and talented and a winning season with a possible flirtation with the playoffs would be great fun to watch and a great foundation to build upon.
Nope, I don’t think big-market teams talk like that. Because of their resources, they’re expected to contend every year. Therein lies the fundamental problem (or difference, depending on whom you ask) with the game: DISPARITY, whether it exists in payrolls, resources for drafting, TV deals, etc.
But do we see anything changing anytime soon? Probably not…I don’t think the players union would EVER agree to a salary cap. But, despite the industry being awash in money, a flaw exists.
Any chance we keep Nathan beyong Jul31? Trade him now? or hold til mid season? Not sold on Neschek as closer. Will that role be handed off to someone else by ‘90-’10? Assuming Nathan isnt resigned.
Todd Anthony: I wasn’t dreaming or speculating. I’m just showing the mistakes and miscalculations that were
made by Twins management. They had a chance to put a solid contending team on the field for years to come, but opted not to do it.
I, personally, think we’ll start the season with him, but look to move him at the deadline. Teams always seem to be looking for bullpen help for the “stretch drive.” Personally, I would love to see us sign him, but I question the wisdom of signing a closer to a non-contender.
Did Gomez break his hand while playing for the Mets? If he went on the DL for the Mets, he wouldnt have been demoted to AAA, would that time count regarding his super two status?
Well reading it made it sound like you were either longing for days of yesteryear, or somehow hoping to alter history.
Nevertheless, it’s a fruitless endeavor. And believe me, I love griping about Terry Ryan; but really, what purpose does it serve? What’s done is done. NOW, we have to move on: the team, the organization, and the fans.
One thing though: I do trust the Twins to evaluate talent, despite the hiccups known as Matt Moses, Denard Span, etc. (include people like Winfree, McCarty, etc. in the mix).
It is annoying to talk like that but it is true. This team stands a chance to be a real WS contender in 2010. Detroit will be falling off and Cleveland will be our competition. I take our young nucleus over Cleveland’s anyday. They will lose Sabathia to New York or Chicago. He is going to want $20 mil a year+ and they won’t be able to pay him, Hafner, Martinez and Sizemore. They are a smaller market than us and we will have a sold out ballpark for at least 3 or 4 years when that thing opens. It will be the hottest seat in town because a whole generation like me doesn’t even know what it is like to have a beer and watch a game outside in the middle of July. If Gomez becomes a all-star player, Liriano regains Santana like form, we get some good prospects for Nathan and we make some smart FA pickups this team will be very good by about the end of 09.
bufftwins - You’re correct about the missed opportunities. But that was Terry Ryan’s fault, and I’ve been criticizing him for it for some time. Please don’t blame Bill Smith for that. And please recognize that BS is doing things MUCH differently. TR wouldn’t have made the Delmon Young trade, he wouldn’t have extended Mourneau and Cuddyer (because he didn’t have to yet), and I think he would have gone at least to the All Star break with Santana. And then we’d be 7 games out and he wouldn’t pull the trigger.
BS has a long range plan. If you look you can see it in everything he’s doing. I sound like a “homer” for defending him, but I never defended TR. This guy is different.
Don’t doubt the Twins. They are one of the five to ten best run organizations in pro sports. Yes other teams have more resources better that doesn’t make them a better run organization. Imagine if Terry Ryan would have had a $150 million payroll the past 7 years, how many titles would he have won? Other than the Spurs, Patriots, Mighty Ducks, Colts, Athletics, Red Sox what other organizations could be considered more successful at building teams and staying competative?
Dennis: excellent points. Would Terry Ryan have handed Morneau a SIX year deal, or even contemplated extending Johan for an additional FIVE years?
HELL NO. The guy wouldn’t surpass four years on any deal.
Swanson and Liondragon - pass the cool aid and pipe you are smoking. Im no scout but have seen Humber, Mulvey and Gomez play. Yeah, young guys comming off major surgery gives me great hope!Wow, Gomez can hit a breaking ball!Yeah, being projected as a number one starter when you are drafted really means something!! I mean, come on! Anyone who has half a clue about the mets minor league prospects know this was the fleecing of the century. I hear Omar has the Brooklyn bridge for sale and some great property in the Sahara. Get ready to use your Twinkie hanky for some real tears when Humber takes the hill. What a joke!!!
I promised myself that I wouldn’t immediately fly off the handle over this deal. I have thought about it for the past 24 hours and still can’t believe that the Twins couldn’t get a single proven player in a deal for the best pitcher in baseball. People keep saying look what the Twins got when they traded Chuck Knoblauch and A.J., but with all respect to Chuckie and A.J., they are not comparable to the type of player Johan is. I get the fact that Johan didn’t want to be here anymore. That still doesn’t make this any better.
The Twins better use that $80 million they offered to Sanatana and the $45 million they offered to Hunter to bring in some other talent. I’m not excited that Baker and Bonser are now looking like they could be our #2 and #3 starters.
jlambert - I’m curious. Which team are you a scout for???? And for how long? It must be for a long period if you’re THAT much better than the Twins scouts….
Did anyone watch the video of Kelly Theiser talking about this deal on MLB.com? They showed game clips of Gomez and Humber. The three clips they showed of Humber were a homerun he gave up, a double to the gap and the manager taking him out of the game. Pretty confidence inspiring.
Dennis: excellent points. Unfortunately, this blog is populated by people who think their opinions are facts (i.e the term “armchair GM” has been bandied about; very appropriate term).
E - Thanks for thinking so long before emotionally reacting. That’s far beyond what most posters here have managed. It gives me respect for your opinion.
However, I’ll point out that both Knoblauch and A.J. were All-Stars when traded. And Viola was the reigning Cy Young winner when traded.
Also, if you want to blame someone blame Terry Ryan, not Bill Smith. Smith was boxed into a corner. By all accounts, Santana had set his deadline and neither the Yankees or Red Sox stepped to the plate. I’ve read a couple of stories about Smith almost begging the Yankees and Red Sox to sweeten their offers.
E - Well now you just lost all the respect I had for you. If they wanted they could show film of Johan giving up HRs more than 30 times last year. He must be an AWFUL pitcher.
Todd - Thanks. I’ve appreciated your thoughtful points as well. And not because you tend to agree with me. I’m still waiting for the sky is falling folks to put up a cogent argument.
I’m sorry Dennis, I just thought that maybe they could have found a clip of a strikout or something.
The Twins trade with the Mets right now looks to be the worst trade in baseball history.
I’ve been going through, and I know that people can talk about Knoblauch, or Viola, and how those worked out, but Christian Guzman, Eric Milton and David West (though he ultimately didn’t pan out) were top level prospects.
Also in the dynamics of it. When we traded the Viola the Twins didn’t have much for pitching in the organization. Trading for 3 pitchers when we were already 20 pitchers deep is kind of silly unless we are turning around to trade some of those young pitching prospects!!!
The Trade of Knoblauch, we needed a SS of the future, we needed a 1st baseman of the future, we needed a left handed starting pitcher.
Gomez is a CF. Kenny Lofton at 40 is a better CF than Gomez. Ellsbury is a better CF than Gomez, and Coco freaking Crisp is a better CF than Gomez (though Gomez appears to have the potential to be better than Crisp.
Delois Guerra is a stud of the future… like as in 2010-2012 kind of future. Hope my grand kids enjoy him (being sarastic).
Humber is a B level prospect who doesn’t have any real particular GREATNESS to him, and so is the other kid we got.
Why we didn’t take Pelfry who was major league ready, or why we couldn’t have gotten Martinez and Church out of hte deal instead of Gomez I haven’t the slightest clue…
So even in dealing with the Mets we didn’t get ANYTHING of importance from the Mets.
So hopefully I’m wrong and I am happy if I am wrong, but right now I would say that this looks to be borderline pointless, and it has a failure factor of about 90% which is terrible!
With the Red Sox in either trade you were getting an Amazing hitting middle infielder, a great sinkerball pitcher with our defense, and a major league calibur (and in Ellsbury’s case a star in the making) CF, and either a stud lefty, or a 19 year old OF prospect.
Bill Smith more than likely failed at his signature move, and in hindsight now makes the Garza trade look all the more glaring as a potential fiasco as well.
All the internal workings, and reshuffling of the same people is possibly detracting from the gene pool if you know what I mean! This is not a trailer park in Alabama, it’s the Minnesota Twins baseball team…
Maybe the Twins need some new blood in management?
I read what people think we should do on here sometimes and it is ridiculous. If the front office did some of these things the Twins would be the Royals or Pirates. They have been to the playoffs in the crazy competative AL for 4 of the past 7 years. All while having a budget under $70 mil while other teams are spending $100 mil+. We should all hail Ryan for returning our beloved Twins back to respectability not rip him for past mistakes. Who drafted Mauer instead of Prior? Who picked up an unknown 20 year old Venezuelan named Santana in the rule 5 draft? Who got two all star pitchers and a #5 starter for an average catcher who couldn’t throw out my grandma. Who traded a reserve outfielder for a leadoff hitter that hit .330 the last two months of the season to get us into the playoffs in 03? When you run a baseball team like the Twins you have to look ahead as well as trying to compete today. If there is one thing that he can be faulted for it is not going for it in the 2003 and 2004 seasons when the young club had so much talent that Santana was the third lefty out of the pen. He could have traded some prospects for a couple guys that probably would have allowed us to win a title in one of those years. But, he didn’t want to sacrifice the future for a CHANCE at winning now. Although with a team in our financial position that is what you have to do when you get the chance or else you will never win in today’s MLB. Look at Detroit they are taking their shot for 08 and 09 and starting in about 10 they are not going to be very good. They traded a potential superstar in Maybin and a #1 or #2 type SP in Miller. By 2010 Sheffield, Rodriguez, Renteria and Rogers will be gone. Ordonez, Polanco and Guillen will be in steep decline. They will left with Verlander, Cabrera, Granderson and Bonderman which is still a pretty good young core but won’t compare to the Twins or Indians. The only issue I have with this whole deal is that we should have gotten Martinez or at the very least Pelfrey instead of one of the two pitchers. Gomez does have a real chance to be a star though. Imagine 75 SB in front of Mauer,Young and Morneau. The club is hoping that Guerra will be our next young stud in about 3 or 4 years when we are about to lose Liriano and we will need a replacement.
The fact of the matter here is that nobody knows how this trade is going to work out. Smith gambled, maybe Gomez will turn into the solid lead-off guy the Twind have been looking for over the past few years. Maybe Guarra will turn out to be as good as the scouts think. I can only hope that when 2010 rolls arouond, the Twins have a contending team to put on that new field.
BC - Where have you been? I’ve been worried about you. I mean that. I know how passionate you are about the Twins.
I think I can address you new blood request. They HAVE new blood. It’s name is Bill Smith. And I don’t mean that ironically. Terry Ryan is to blame for the current situation of losing Hunter and Silva for nothing, and having to trade Johan. If we could time travel a couple of years into the future I’d bet you $100 that you’d be happy and surprised with the state of the team.
Otherwise, I won’t answer you point by point. People are tired of me by now as it is.
But good to have you back.
Zach - I didn’t mean to imply TR was an overall disaster. He was excellent in many things. But he did screw up the Hunter and Santana things, and seemed to be getting WAY too cautious his last couple of years. But yes, he should be saluted for what he did earlier.
Dennis, I mean new blood from outside the organization. The Twins and the Timberwolves are so inbread with their management that they start to act like Kevin McHale, and that’s no good for anyone.
On my way to clinicals tonight… so I’ll be back in full force tomorrow.
Dennis click my link, and read my blog on Bill Smith. It’s highly offensive, but it made me feel better.
It is insane though that we got more for Garza and Bartlett than Santana though. Someone posted that the other day and I have been thinking about that. Young is a legitimate star in waiting who had almost 100 RBI at 22. How could we not get a guy back with that kind of talent for the best pitcher in baseball. I know you will all say the contract demands and no trade clause but still that is pretty crazy. I mean I would put Young in about Reyes league in talent and we couldn’t even get him for Johan. I started out thinking Wright was fair straight up for Johan, then the Mets said no way so I thought okay I would still hesitantly take Reyes straight up for potential. Then the Mets say no and I am thinking that Martinez isn’t even enough for Santana and we couldn’t even get him either!
Dennis, you have been carrying the weight today my friend! Way to hang in there against the naysayers. Now, you better get to work.
BC, you are too smart to conclude that this is the worst trade in baseball history. You are too well versed on baseball to state such an outlandish idea.C’mon BC.
BC,
Reds trading Frank Robinson for essentially Milt Pappas was far worse than this trade (as of now) And the Mets trading of Nolan Ryan for Jim Fergosi was pretty bad.
And Yanks did trade Jay Buhner, Willie McGee and some good pitchers for nothing over the years.
Don’t lose faith.
Dennis - I am no scout and don’t need to be one to see a fleecing. I guess you are still on that sugar high from all the cool aid you have been swilling. Get a clue. Hope I’m wrong but this deal stinks.
They are going to need to sign a veteran #4 type starting pitcher and a powerhitting backup 1B and they will be done. I vote Livan Hernandez and Tony Clark. Hernandez isn’t great but he is a guarantee of 200+ innings which is immensely important on this young staff and Tony Clark would provide great leadership and a good spell for Morneau so he doesn’t wear out in August again. The only problem is I think Clark wants to get 400+ AB and the Twin could offer that with Morneau,Kubel and Monroe already sharing two positions. It certainly isn’t about the money and they need to at least add a veteran SP.
Is this trade worse then the AJ trade?
bc you seem to be over reacting a bit. not sure santana would have gone to the sox or yanks, neither said they’d do over 5 yrs. he had the right to nix any deal and he got the best deal for himself. the mets have to pay him what he wants, he wanted to hit, pitch to a pitcher 3-4 times a game and get paid big. and he gets it all without chancing getting hurt or having a bad yr in 08 and seeing his value go down. we don’t know, even tho some people here claim to) what restrictions johan put on smith. we are all speculating about what he could have got instead without knowing anything for sure. and none of know for sure what any of these players will turn out to be.
You never know with prospects, A year ago on this site alot of people were high on Denard Span. Now they all hate him. He may yet turn out to be the CF of the future or not. The point is you take your chances on potential and 4 good prospects usually return something. Santana had all the cards and he really didn’t do the Twins any favors…that being said I loved having him as a Twin and he did nothing that so many other great players haven’t done. Good Luck to him and Go Twins!
Reezee — From what they’re reporting in Boston, the RS did NOT change their original offers/permutations, with one package holding lester and prospects and one holding Ellsbury and prospects. Quite rightly, the RS were not about to put Ellsbury and Lester together in a package, though the Twins wanted that and apparently asked for that. The RS management is amazed that Bill Smith traded for very little essentially. Either Sox offer was FAR better than the Mets offer that was accepted. For what it’s worth, the commentators on ESPN just now are in shock — they also can’t believe that Smith took the Mets offering.
I actually think that even though the Yanks had pulled back, they probably would have still gone ahead with a trade with one of their existing offers. It sounds as if the Twins kept saying to the Yanks “give us more or we won’t deal” and were saying the same to the Sox. But then they were willing to accept such lowly Mets prospects, not even asking for the top prospects??! Truly amazing.
Perhaps there were some somewhat irrational factors at play here:
* The Twins org feared the local backlash if YET ANOTHER star was traded to a Boston team. Looking at some of the posts here, I can certainly imagine that. Many fans didn’t care how good the Sox package was or wasn’t, not really — the predominant feeling was: DON’T SEND HIM TO BOSTON! no matter what.
* The Twins just didn’t want to see him go to an AL team.
* The Twins have decided to throw all their hopes into scouting reports. At this point, the scouting reports are mixed at best, and these prospects are completely unproven. But they’re willing to gamble.
It’s crazy because either the Yanks or RS packages (especially that of the Sox) were offering a mix of proven, budding stars and promising prospects. Ellsbury and Lester have both already walked through the fire and not just survived, but thrived. They’ve both been in a winning World Series for goodness sakes! And as any Sox fan will tell you, thriving in the pressure cooker atmosphere of Fenway, where every game is supercharged, is already an accomplishment, never mind going to a World Series.
But only time will tell! That’s the great thing about sports. And I certainly sympathize with Bill Smith…though I do think that with time, this will not prove to have been a good move for the Twins org.
But you gotta hand it to Omar!! He’s being hailed as a genius today — somehow, he was able to convince the Twins that his paltry offerings were better than the far superior ones offered by the Yanks and RS.
As a Sox fan, I’m curious to see how this all ends up!! I think the Mets were HUGE winners in this. The Twins are likely HUGE losers in this. The Yanks and RS are just kind of…meh…doing OK, not losing, probably sort of winning, as they are both able to hold on to proven players and prospects likely to pay off. But again, it will take a couple of seasons to know for sure. And there’s certainly a chance that this trade will be like many past Twins trades: prudent and something that will pay off with time.
werbellik - Thanks! I’m going to do exactly that! I need this job, and no ones going to trade me to the Mets! Carry on….
City may ban elephant rides; circus might stay away
Shriners threaten to leave town if City Council approves changes to circus animal ordinance.
By TERRY COLLINS, Star Tribune
Last update: January 30, 2008 - 2:19 PM
Print this story
E-mail this story
Save to del.icio.us
Share on newsvine
Share on Digg
Related Content
Shrine Circus elephant in Minneapolis
Jennifer Simonson, Star Tribune
poll: Should circus elephant rides be allowed?
Yes
No
Video: Oct. 5: Watching the animals
Blog post: Aug. 7, 1975: Joe Soucheray rides an elephant
More from Local + Metro
I-94 blocked by burning truck
Owners of dog killed by pit bulls want stricter laws for breed
Man who helps crash victim has car stolen
Possible assault of 3-year-old at care center under investigation
Windchill warning expired, but it’s still cold out there
Minneapolis’ attempt to protect circus animals may run them out of town. A new ordinance would allow elephants in circuses, but kids would no longer be able to ride or touch them.
If that happens, the show may not go on.
“We’ll seriously consider leaving the city if we can’t do elephant rides,” said Tim Davison, the Minneapolis Shriners’ assistant circus chairman. Elephant rides are a highlight and a moneymaker of the annual fall circus shows at Target Center, which are the group’s principal fundraiser.
“That’s the effect of having a ban without actually having a ban,” Davison added.
Friday’s anticipated City Council vote comes nearly a year after a ban of wild animal circuses was first introduced by Council Member Ralph Remington. The idea ignited a vigorous debate that attracted local and national animal experts to town. Minneapolis would’ve been the second major U.S. city besides Albuquerque, N.M., to adopt such a measure.
In September, the council narrowly voted against an outright ban, and opted instead for a milder proposal of increased regulations, higher permit fees and stiffer fines for circus operators now ranging from $500 to $1,000 depending on the violation.
Council Member Paul Ostrow, who wrote the proposed ordinance with colleague Betsy Hodges, called it a “win-win situation for everybody.”
Not willing to go that far, Christine Coughlin, executive director for the local nonprofit Circus Reform Yes, said this week her group feels better about the issue compared to four months ago.
“It’s a step in the right direction,” said Coughlin, who first brought the topic to city leaders nearly eight years ago. “I think the fact that this has taken so long is parallel with broader themes in our society in terms of environmental and animal awareness. We’re making inroads.”
The proposed ordinance also includes a license fee of $750, on- and off-site inspections at circuses with city animal control staff and contracted veterinarians, likely from the University of Minnesota. The inspections will come at the circus operator’s expense.
Since last fall, city staff has met twice with wild animal circus proponents and opponents to reach a common ground.
Last week, a council committee passed the proposed ordinance with Council Member Cam Gordon’s amendments citing specifically against animal cruelty and neglect, and eliminating the popular elephant rides because of public safety concerns.
“We could still have a great circus experience and a profitable one if we did without this act,” said Gordon during last week’s public safety and regulatory services committee meeting. “This would be a way to proactively avoid a horrible situation.”
The Shriners were taken aback by the Gordon amendments.
The organization has never received any complaints nor have patrons been injured from the rides that cost about $8 last year, Davison said.
“If they were dangerous, then we wouldn’t be able to carry insurance,” Davison said. “We have people lining up at our shows to take a ride. Why? They’re trying to make it difficult for us because we led the charge against a total ban.”
For their part Remington and Gordon still both prefer an outright ban on circus animals.
“We’ve come a long way,” Remington said. “But it can go just a little bit further.”
Terry Collins • 612-673-1790
JK I am outta here have a nice evening and stay warm
Here is my guess for 08 Twins
CF Gomez
2B Harris
C Mauer
RF Cuddyer
1B Morneau
LF Young
DH Kubel
3B Lamb
SS Everett
C Redmond
1B Mientkiewicz
SS Punto
3B Buscher
OF Monroe
1 Liriano
2 Baker
3 Hernandez
4 Slowey
5 Bonser
CL Nathan
SU Neshek
SU Rincon
RP Crain
RP Reyes/Perkins
RP Guerrier
A couple of notes:
I think it is possible that we could sign Patterson or Lofton but I would rather they just let it ride with Gomez. I would like to sign Clark, but I think he will want more AB and play for a contender. Sweeney would be a nice bat off the bench but he can’t play defense. I can see Dougie coming back for cheap to spell Morneau and play great defense. I really think that they should explore putting Guerrier in the rotation becasue Perkins could take his spot in the pen. Also trading Nathan is a very real possibilty, but I think they will do that at mid season when RP value is at their highest. We could pair him with one of our four SP prospects and get a real good potential 3B or SS. We will also still have a ton of SP depth in the system with Perkins,Blackburn,Humber,Mulvey all ready to get a shot in the bigs and Guerra and Robertson sitting down in high A or AA with the potential to be frontend rotation guys. This club is going to be alright.
FLEECED
I TOLD YOU GUYS ELLSBURY WASN’T GOING TO BE TRADED, DIDN’T I?
Life would have been great though if those damn Red Sox would have just given us Ellsbury/Lester/Lowrie. Since when is an organization’s top PROSPECT mind you, off limits in a trade for the best pitcher in the game who is 28 none the less. Yankees say no Chamberlain, Red Sox no Buchholz and Mets no Martinez. When the hell did that become acceptable? If Johan would have had two years left on his deal we could have had any of those guys. Also if you won’t give up the number one guy you should have to package the 2 and 3 guys ala Hughes/Kennedy and Ellsbury/Lester. Gomez/Guerra is comparable but all those aformentioned guys are ready to play now and probably more talented.
BC BENEKE this site is much better when you don’t put 64 line rants on here. Did you scout these players to say its the worst trade or read stuff on line to give your professional rant.
Is this trade worse than the Larry Anderson for Jeff Bagwell…lol?
Guys, Your super bowl predictions?
Scott I guarantee you we could have had Ellsbury. There is no way that deal was off the table. Look at how much that makes sense to the Red Sox. You give up a pretty talented CF for a Santana/Beckett combo. Yeah if you pay Santana you have to let Manny walk after this year, but I think they were going to do that anyway. Who care if their offense is weaker who is going to score any runs off of them? Beckett/Santana/Schilling/Matsuzaka/Buchholz that is insane. Their number 5 starter would be an ace on 15 teams. Not not to mention you have a potential number #3 (Lester) sitting on the bench WITH Wakefield. That is why Theo was salivating at the winter meetings.
Peter Gammons just said than none of the Mets prospect we got would have even made the Yankee’s top 10. And that we should have gone for Austin Jackson who is a lot more talented than Gomez. We at least HAD to get Martinez! UGH!!!!!
BTW, someone said Gomez will steal 75 bases. You can only steal a base when you get to first. Gomez can’t steal all those bases from the batter’s box. He can’t hit or walk.
I will never be able to watch Hughes pitch. Lester I can deal with but we had an ace slip right through hands. Jim Callis of Baseball American has Hughes winning 16 games with a 3.65 ERA this year. And he is still only 21!!!! I am going to be sick.
Patriots 34-24
I really do not get the fascination with ellsbury. No one even heard of him until the last month of the season. I think give Gomez a little time and he will be a monster as a leadoff hitter. The kid is 22 yrs old and was rushed up way to fast.
Zach, that is also why Boston didn’t make a stronger play for him. They really don’t need more pitching, especially at Santana’s price.
Zach, They will let Manny walk only if he has another sub par year. There is no one on the FA market who is remotely close to the hitter Manny is except for Teixeira. I would still wait until a young RHH is available.
And yes, Ellsbury was never going anywhere.
I agree a pairing of Hughes and Liriano would have been special. But I could not have bared watching Santana pitch for the Yankees and then after we finally make the playoffs again in a couple years, shut us out on a 3 hitter in game one of the ALDS.
If some people are so upset with the Twins and think this is the end of the world, then don’t be Twins fans anymore!
Wow, Sox fans saying that all the Sox prospects are going to be stars and all the Mets prospects are going to fail. Ellsbury’s 1.5 months of success with the Sox in October at age 25 make him a star in the making. Gomez’s 1.5 months of non success with the mets at age 21 mean he is destined to be a failure.
Ellsbury hits for average, has decent speed, has no power, and a below average arm. All I’m saying is Jason Tyner had an amazing final 1.5 months of 2006 with the same skill set.
Gomez has more potential than Ellsbury. Lowrie is a good hitting SS who likely will need to move to 2B to address defensive concerns (Brendan Harris clone?). Masterson projects to be an effective reliever.
I’m glad we turned down the Red Sox offer of Tyner, Harris, and Jesse Crain for Johan Santana. The potential with the Mets prospects is far better and that’s why BS took the Mets deal.
LOL, Zach. Then what’s all the fuss? You didn’t want him to go to the Yanks and the Sox weren’t serious. That leaves the Mets.
Trust me, guys, I feel for you guys to have inept owner/management in Minny. I wish you guys could have great owners like Mr. Henry, Mr Kraft and Wyc Grousbeck. They do everything and anything to make sure we have winning teams in Boston.
Jacobs on the other hand blows. You want him to own the Wild?
chad swanson - Nobody ever heard of Ellsbury??? The guy was a 1st round only a couple of years ago. Anyone who follows the minors has heard of him. He is legit.
Gomez on the other hand is a product of the NY prospect hype machine. They said he had 5 tools when he only has 3. Speed, Defence, and Arm. There is nothing to suggest that he will ever be a monster leadoff hitter. He just isn’t that good. At best he is a speedier, but poorer hitting Coco Crisp.
Sean, I for one, have always said these kids are all prospects, nothing more and nothing less. They have to prove it for a couple of years before you can judge them.
It was the yankee fans who were acting like all their spects were the next coming of the 27 yankees.
Sean, Ellsbury=Tyner. You can not be a baseball follower.
Seriously Ellsbury is not that good. He is not Sizemore or Beltran. Corey Patterson had much higher ratings and praise as he ascended to the bigs and look at how that worked out. He can’t hit more than 10 home runs and if he doesn’t rountinely hit above .300 what is he? He will surely look better in Boston’s lineup than he would on most teams because he will score a lot of runs and steal a lot of bases. Ellsbury is a .290 10 65 guy with about 40 steals. How is that much different than Gomez aside from being more ready now. Gomez is much faster and is a freak defensively. He doesn’t have much power but if 10 homeruns a season is what he has to shoot for to equal Ellsbury I think that is within reason. Gomez is 2 years younger, faster and is bigger 6-4 200 compared to 6-1 185. He will be better than Ellsbury mark my words. The question is did we get enough in the rest of the deal? Guerra/Mulvey/Humber or Lowrie/Masterson. If Guerra becomes a stud then the question is answered. IF he never makes it then no way because Lowrie and Masterson will be big league contributors and could be ready to be in the bigs by the end of this season.
Oh, and Sean, the reason why BS took that deal was because he didn’t have any other deal to take. He came back begging the Yanks and Sox to make another offer and both teams said no thank you. BS totally screwed this up.
Like I said, I feel bad for you guys. I am in no means rubbing it in.
This is far from a worst-case scenario.
Worst case is Twins keeping him all year, having the situation ruin team chemistry, and having him sign with the Yankees after the season, giving us 2 more draft picks to waste on matt moses, kyle waldrop, ryan mills type players, who NEVER WERE even prospects because they’ve sucked their entire minor league careers.
Gomez, Humber, Mulvey, they’ve all shown something in the high minors. Humber is in his 2nd year back from TJ surgery, he should be alot better this year. Gomez has improved as the season has gone along in every level he’s played in. He will be an exciting player to watch.
All this talk about Phil Hughes, ellsbury, and lester. Hughes had a 4.4 ERA in the majors last year. He’s no sure thing. Over a full season hitters will figure him out. Guerra has the potential to be much, much better and already posseses a major league changeup. Ellsbury is overrated, just a slightly better tyner. Lester is nothing special.
The twins better not sign a washed up reject veteran pitcher. We have 6 guys who deserve a rotation spot (Liriano, Bonser, Baker, Slowey, Perkins, Humber), also Blackburn knocking at the door. One or more of our young guys could have a garza-like season in the minors this year too, like swarzak or tyler robertson.
Hopefully we draft a college 3rd baseman with our #14 pick this year.
We need to resign joe nathan. we are almost 20 mil under budget now, I say we apply some of that as a signing bonus and extend nathan 3 years.
Doing this deal was the only way to ASSURE that Johan went to the NL. Don’t discount that. Nothing would make me sicker than to see him in pinstripes.
Zach, Every player the Twins received from the Mets is 100X better than the player Ellsbury is. Feel better now?
To answer your question Saam,
I wanted Lester,Crisp,Masterson,Lowrie,Kalish or Martinez,Guerra,Pelfrey or Gomez,Guerra,Pelfrey,Mulvey. Just exchanging Pelfrey for Humber would have made me feel much better about this deal. I am sure that we could have had Lester,Crisp,Lowrie,Masterson but if they would have thrown in Kalish like the Sox were reportedly considering during the winter meetings I would have done that deal in a second. I think the Sox would have done it because they still would have kept Buchholz and Ellsbury and they still have a very deep system. Crisp is a throw away for them and Santana replaces Lester. So really they are only thinning their system by three player. Kalish will be blocked by Ellsbury anyways so essentially you lose a solid hitting SS/2B prospect and a solid relief pitcher.
Where are the comments from management? Where are the aggressive hard ball questions from the media for Bill Smith?
Matt - You are really drinking Bill Smith’s kool aid.
Ellsbury is Jason Tylner and Lester is nothing special? Yet you believe great things are in store for Gomez, Humber, Mulvey? Stop being a homer! None of the players we got are in either Ellsbury or Lester’s class. Why do you think most of baseball is laughing at us?
Hughes was injured most of his FIRST year in the majors and still put up better numbers than Johan did in his first two years. Hitters will figure Hughes out? He is not tricking anyone! The guy has ace stuff.
No scout or GM in their right mind would say Guerra has the potential of Phil Hughes. Just stop. Even Bill Smith would laugh at that.
Twinkie fans i’m with you ,i hope and pray that Minaya pulls a trick on Santana’s money and Santana vetos the deal. And you twinkie fans get what you really deserve,which is either Yankees overrated (next Eric Milton “ace”), great Melky and great #5 starters Kennedy Ian; or Red Sox Lester ( sickly kid ),and Ellesbury (no speed ,no range , no arm (just like Damon,Hideki Matsui (any balls in of is a double )and any other lesser prospect.
You really don’t deserve a man like Mr.Smith as your G.M.
Please Mr.Minaya make Santana an offer he can refuse, so we mets fan in 2 years can have a dinasty with Humber ,Guerra,Mulvey and patrolling the outfield a set such as Gomez,F-Mart,and Beltran.
Thanks for your info LaVelle. What a lot of people don’t take into consideration here is that Johan might not have wanted to pitch here anymore (gasp).
The fact is (and LaVelle points this out) Johan Santana is the best pitcher in the game and wanted to pitch somewhere else. There’s nothing wrong with that. If I want to work somewhere else, I can…so why can’t Johan?
GM Billy Smith was involved in a game of high stakes poker and I’m sure it wasn’t a pleasant game to be a part of. What Smith was able to do was get some good prospects out of the trade.
Let’s take a deep breath and count to ten before jumping all over Smith or Santana.
Gardy said in the trib this morning that one reason to keep Nathan would be to help the confidence of the young SP’s.His theory is that if they pitch7or8 good innings only to have a closer blow it in the nineth,it would affect their overall confidence.Any thoughts.
Instead of pissing and moaning about the trade, let’s wait until ST starts and see what Gardy has to say about the new boys.
Just for clarification this is what the Twins should have considered top 5
1. Hughes/Cabrera/Horne
(Just really hate the idea of Santana going to the Yankees and I bet the Twins brass did too)
2. Lester/Crisp/Lowrie/Masterson/Kalish
(Even without Kalish I would still consider this deal number 3, but you still have the problem of JS staying in the AL)
3. Martinez/Guerra/Pelfrey
(I have a hard time believing we couldn’t pry Martinez away because they really needed Johan. They already wouldn’t talk Wright or Reyes, to not include Martinez is quite unreasonable.
4. Gomez/Guerra/Pelfrey/Mulvey
5. Ellsbury/Lowrie/Masterson
I think that we ended up with a variation of deal number 4. I think everyone really underestimates how much the Twins wanted to get Santana out of the AL. He is not a regular player, dealing him within your league can have serious ramifications for your club in the future. Everyone completely accepts the idea of never dealing within division why not expand that to the league when talking about a player of Santana’s enormous talent. The way I think we got fleeced is allowing Minaya to put so many guys off limits. I mean I will accept Wright and Reyes because they are like our Morneau and Mauer, but not including Martinez? To not even include Pelfrey is absolutely crazy. I am much higher on Pelfrey than Mulvey or Humber and to not get him in a deal without Martinez included is pretty stupid.
Matt,
I guess you are in Twins heaven.. You got the players you wanted for Santana. No Hughes, No Kennedy No Melky, No Ellsbury, No Lester, No Lowrie etc
I think it’s great you got the exact players you wanted
One thing. How do you figure that Hughes will fail (check out his last 3 starts when healthy and his playoff pitching) but a a-league rookie will do better and won’t be “figured” out LOL
Twinkie fans i’m with you ,i hope and pray that Minaya pulls a trick on Santana’s money and Santana vetos the deal. And you twinkie fans get what you really deserve,which is either Yankees overrated Phillips Hughes (next Eric Milton “ace”), great Melky and great #5 starters Kennedy Ian; or Red Sox Lester ( sickly kid ),and Ellesbury (no speed ,no range , no arm (just like Damon,Hideki Matsui (any balls in of is a double )and any other lesser prospect.
You really don’t deserve a man like Mr.Smith as your G.M.
Please Mr.Minaya make Santana an offer he can refuse, so we mets fan in 2 years can have a dinasty with Humber ,Guerra,Mulvey and patrolling the outfield a set such as Gomez,F-Mart,and Beltran.
Jimmy Jam-
Not only did Santana NOT want to pitch here anymore, Ellsbury and Lester were scared to death they would be traded to Minny. Where would you rather play, CF for the World Champions trying to repeat or CF at the Homer Dome? I’m sure Hughes was just as scared. Hopefully Gomez plus another can have respectable MLB careers.
koki7710 - Calling Lester “sickly kid” is a low blow and cheat shot. That kid has more guts than you will ever have. Coward.
koki7710-
Let’s hope the Mets do sign Santana. If they don’t and he returns to the Twins, we will get far less the second time around than the current Mets trade.
I don’t get some of the complaints I’m seeing here.
First Smith was an idiot for even thinking about trading Johan back in December.
Now Smith’s an idiot for not trading him back in December.
And I can go ahead and guess that those of you arguing that you’d have loved to see just one more year of Santana would be the same ones in October wanting his head because he was stupid for not dealing Santana when he had the chance…
ASK THE CLEV iNDIANS WHO WAS THE TOUGHEST PITCHER THEY FACED ON THE SOX STAFF? IF YOU NEED TO, DO A GOOGLE SEARCH TO FIND OUT.
Mr. Troy i apologized . I did not mean it like it sounds.You are right and i take back what i said about Lester.
Man I hate Yankees and Red Sox fans. You’re a bunch of what have you done for me lately ass clowns. I hope Chamberlain blows out his shoulder and Hughes gets suspended for steroids. Manny finally gets locked up in a psych ward and Youkilis finally gets exposed as a closet white supremisist.
Zach, What has Boston done lately? Are you seriously a sports fan? Crack kills brain cells you know.
I will revise my statement laced with obscenities. The only good team we have is the Wild and I hate hockey. So anyone that roots for a baseball team with a $120 mil+ payroll can kiss my ass.
Even though Ellsbury and Cabrera are overrated, Hughes was not, and the *one thing* that bums me out about the Mets trade is that there’s nothing to root for in 2008.
Watching a toolsy Gomez try to learn to play is nowhere near as exciting as Johann. At least Ellsbury or Hughes would have created some excitement for 2008 and 2009.
As it is, the Twins are gonna just play out their remaining days in the Dome, giving us fewer reasons to watch.
Zach,
You are a child.
You are hoping someone gets hurt cause you didnt get what you think you wanted. What an adult.
roundabout- you hit that right on the head about Zach. You and a few others here make this forum a fun place to talk sports.
No I don’t really want anyone to get hurt on the field. But, how about some of these Yankees and Red Sox fans get hit by a beer bottle attempted to be thrown at an opposing player. Seriously how much of an deusche do you have to be to root for the Yankees? The only exception is if you are born and raised in the Bronx, otherwise how would you not be a Mets fan?
Alright seriously do you guys actually know anything about modern baseball or are you still lamenting old Frank Robinson trades?
SEATTLE — A last-minute attempt by the Baltimore Orioles to sign Erik Bedard to a multi-year contract appears to be the only thing standing in the way of a proposed trade that would send the left-hander to the Seattle Mariners for as many as five players, including 22-year-old outfielder Adam Jones.
Seattle also would send left-handed reliever George Sherrill, right-handed starter Chris Tillman and at least one more Minor League pitcher to the Orioles.
Sources close to the Orioles said Wednesday that club owner Peter Angelos wants to keep the ace pitcher and called Bedard last Sunday night to discuss a five-year contract. Bedard said he might be interested and would talk to his agent, Mark Pieper.
Neither Pieper nor Bedard could be reached for comment on Wednesday.
This isn’t the first time a multi-year contract has been discussed. Orioles president of operations Andy MacPhail recently asked Pieper what it would take to sign Bedard long-term and the agent suggested a seven-year, $100 million contract.
MacPhail balked and countered with three years. That suggestion never made it to first base, so he resumed efforts to trade one of the American League’s top pitchers.
Apparently after agreeing in principle to the deal, the Orioles heard something about Jones having a potential health problem — a degenerative hip (osteoarthritis) similar to the ailment that ended Albert Belle’s career in 2000, just two years into the five-year, $65 million contract he signed with the Orioles.
The medical report on Jones was unsubstantiated and Mariners trainer Rick Griffin told the Seattle Post-Intelligencer on Tuesday that he couldn’t talk about the situation because of Hippa regulations. General manager Bill Bavasi said: “All I can tell you is that we brought Adam Jones home from Venezuela. Beyond that, we’re not saying anything.”
Jones, playing for the Lara Cardenales in the Venezuela Winter League, was notified by the Mariners last Saturday to leave Venezuela and fly to Baltimore for a physical. Jones told a newspaper reporter in Venezuela about the phone call and his apparent trade to Baltimore, which infuriated Orioles officials.
Jones supposedly returned to the U.S. on Tuesday, but has not been seen at the Mariners’ Spring Training complex in Peoria, Ariz.
While the Mariners would not comment any further on the potential trade, MacPhail said on Wednesday that there has not been any progress or movement with Seattle.
Asked if the trade that sent left-hander Johan Santana from the Twins to the Mets for four Minor League prospects changed the landscape of the proposed Mariners-Orioles deal, MacPhail said, “No, it does not.”
Jim Street is a reporter for MLB.com. MLB.com reporter Spencer Fordin contributed. This story was not subject to the approval of Major League Baseball or its clubs.
Zach is a very bitter little kid. Just ignore him.
I am still in shock Billy Smith found a way to trade Santana and not get either Hughes, Ellsbury, or Martinez back. Some magic trick.
Zach
the fact you probably know very little of Frank Robinson is the point…
send all prospect rcvd for rios and long term him
but cheap pohlad is probly satisfied with the current so called roster
Here’s a question. Why did Santana and his agent essentially threaten the Twins with trade me now or I go free agent and I will veto any trade during the season? LEN3 cites sources. He doesn’t tell us why Santana would take that position…
And then LEN3 writes: “The Mets offer included players deemed to have the greatest potential.”
LEN3 doesn’t tell us/you that the Yanks made no offer and the Red Sox offer was minus both Ellsbury and Lester. His statement on the Mets is disengenuous if not outright misleading.
or trade our obscene amount of pitching prospects for 1 up and coming pitcher.
we have 20 mil to throw around, why not trade for a star and long term deal.
Hawk,
If the Mets can’t sign Santana or someone (on the Mets) fails a physical, what then? He may have to come back and take the Twins deal
Yanks give Mets big assist Wednesday, January 30, 2008
Bob Klapisch
Bergen Record
This was late Monday night, about 12 hours before the Mets would pounce upon their most dramatic trade in recent history. Twins’ general manager Bill Smith, in a panic to move Johan Santana, called the Yankees and admitted surrender: Phil Hughes was no longer a prerequisite, he said. Instead, the Twins asked for Ian Kennedy, Melky Cabrera and a top prospect. Would the Yankees still be interested, Smith wondered?
The Yankees considered the idea, but only briefly and not seriously. Their passion for Santana started waning as far back as December, when Andy Pettitte announced he was returning to the Bronx. The Yankees’ internal straw vote was unanimous: The Twins had waited too long. On Tuesday Yankees’ GM Brian Cashman told Smith he was passing on the deal, prompting the Twins to call the Red Sox. Equally devastating news awaited. Both Jacoby Ellsbury and Jon Lester were unavailable.
The Red Sox, in lock step with the Yankees, had essentially backed out, too.
That left the Mets, who after hearing from Smith didn’t allow themselves to be bluffed. GM Omar Minaya held firm, insisting the Twins would have to live without Fernando Martinez. As a result — and thanks to the Twins’ grim realization that they were without options — the Mets made off with a heist of mammoth proportions. They inherit the major league’s best left-handed pitcher, one who’s a lock to dominate National League hitters, without giving up a can’t-miss prospect.
It almost seems too good to be true: a two-time Cy Young Award winner for center fielder Carlos Gomez and pitchers Phil Humber, Kevin Mulvey and Deolis Guerra. The surge through the organization Tuesday afternoon was unmistakable. Even though the Wilpon family will have to write an astronomical check to Santana, the Mets satisfied their most pressing need, which was to counter the effects of last September’s history-making collapse.
What will that be worth to the Mets? “No less than Zito,” is what one major league official speculated, referring to the seven-year, $126 million contract Barry Zito extracted from the Giants last year. It could be even more costly than that since Santana will asking for upward of $140 million. One person familiar with the Mets’ thinking believes it will take “all 72 hours” of the three-day window to come to terms with the left-hander, although no one doubts a settlement will be reached.
Really, how could the Mets refuse? Santana is a young Pedro Martinez – well, maybe not that good, but he’s young (he’ll be 29 in March) and will be the opening-day pitcher, capable of restoring the Mets’ sense of invincibility every fifth day. If Pedro stays healthy, the 1-2 punch should be powerful enough to offset the psychological advantage the Phillies gained after surging past them in the final 17 games of last year’s regular season.
Actually, it was a perfect storm of good fortune for the Mets. Not only did they exploit Smith’s weakened bargaining position, but they benefited from the Yankees and Red Sox’ synchronized caution. Talk about long shots. Who would’ve thought the AL East’s two powerhouses would become so rational at the same time? Major league executives say Smith will rue the day he chose not to jump on the Yankees’ offer of Hughes, Cabrera, Class AA right-hander Jeff Marquez and a prospect of their choosing. That was Dec. 2 and all Smith had to do was say yes.
Incredibly, he waffled. Within 24 hours, Pettitte told the Yankees he intended to pitch again in 2008, prompting the team to reconsider the deal for Santana. Suddenly, Hank Steinbrenner started listening to his brother Hal and Cashman, both of whom pleaded their case for financial restraint. Little by little, Hank Steinbrenner’s craving for Santana diminished; the longer Smith held out, trying to leverage the Yankees and Red Sox against each other, the closer he came to dooming the best deal he could’ve made for Santana.
The Yankees further distanced themselves from Santana when free agent Mike Cameron signed with the Brewers, which meant they’d be stuck for a center fielder had they shipped Cabrera to Minnesota. By early January Hank Steinbrenner officially had taken the Yankees off the Twins’ radar. One person familiar with the Yankees’ decision-making process said “[a four-for-one, Hughes-included deal for Santana] just stopped making sense. If it’d been just the money, or just the players, maybe. But not both.”
Indeed, one talent evaluator said that of all the combinations made available to the Twins, Tuesday’s swap was the fourth or fifth best. Smith undoubtedly will tell the Twins’ fan base that this was the best he could’ve done under the circumstances. It was either accept the Mets’ swap on their terms, or lose Santana to free agency after this season.
But Smith could’ve and should’ve waited longer. One key injury in spring training, and any of Santana’s suitors would’ve come begging. But the rookie GM feared Santana wouldn’t waive his no-trade clause after spring training began; Smith lost his nerve, just as he didn’t have the professional intuition to deal for Hughes when he could have.
Of course, there are caveats all around: The Mets have cleaned out their farm system, which means they had better get an immediate return on their investment from Santana. He had better be healthy, too; that’s no small consideration for a pitcher who allowed 33 home runs in 2007 and lost 3-4 miles off his fastball in his last seven starts.
And Cashman had better be right about his loyalty to Hughes, Joba Chamberlain and Kennedy. Steinbrenner already has put his GM on notice that he has no intention of playing for the wild card. Santana could’ve changed that equation, but for now, the Yankees are content to let the Mets celebrate. And rightfully so.
Can you imagine that change-up in the National League? Talk about an unfair fight.
E-mail: klapisch@northjersey.com
This was late Monday night, about 12 hours before the Mets would pounce upon their most dramatic trade in recent history. Twins’ general manager Bill Smith, in a panic to move Johan Santana, called the Yankees and admitted surrender: Phil Hughes was no longer a prerequisite, he said. Instead, the Twins asked for Ian Kennedy, Melky Cabrera and a top prospect. Would the Yankees still be interested, Smith wondered?
The Yankees considered the idea, but only briefly and not seriously. Their passion for Santana started waning as far back as December, when Andy Pettitte announced he was returning to the Bronx. The Yankees’ internal straw vote was unanimous: The Twins had waited too long. On Tuesday Yankees’ GM Brian Cashman told Smith he was passing on the deal, prompting the Twins to call the Red Sox. Equally devastating news awaited. Both Jacoby Ellsbury and Jon Lester were unavailable.
The Red Sox, in lock step with the Yankees, had essentially backed out, too.
Breaking down the tradeCarlos Gomez
Has pop, but too many holes last year. Still, Mets liked his power potential.
Deolis Guerra
He had 66 strikeouts in 89 2/3 innings at Class A. The highest upside in the package.
Kevin Mulvey
The Mets’ minor league pitcher of the year last year.
Philip Humber
Polished and could join the Twins’ rotation this year.
Johan Santana
Do we really need to go beyond mentioning he’s the best pitcher in the majors? He’s been a full-time starter for four years, but he’s been in the top seven in Cy Young voting the past five years. He did give up an AL-worst 33 HRs last year.
What’s next?
The 72-hour window to sign Santana. The Mets might need every minute of it as Santana is seeking a deal of six or seven years worth about $25 million per year.
– Steve Popper
That left the Mets, who after hearing from Smith didn’t allow themselves to be bluffed. GM Omar Minaya held firm, insisting the Twins would have to live without Fernando Martinez. As a result — and thanks to the Twins’ grim realization that they were without options — the Mets made off with a heist of mammoth proportions. They inherit the major league’s best left-handed pitcher, one who’s a lock to dominate National League hitters, without giving up a can’t-miss prospect.
It almost seems too good to be true: a two-time Cy Young Award winner for center fielder Carlos Gomez and pitchers Phil Humber, Kevin Mulvey and Deolis Guerra. The surge through the organization Tuesday afternoon was unmistakable. Even though the Wilpon family will have to write an astronomical check to Santana, the Mets satisfied their most pressing need, which was to counter the effects of last September’s history-making collapse.
What will that be worth to the Mets? “No less than Zito,” is what one major league official speculated, referring to the seven-year, $126 million contract Barry Zito extracted from the Giants last year. It could be even more costly than that since Santana will asking for upward of $140 million. One person familiar with the Mets’ thinking believes it will take “all 72 hours” of the three-day window to come to terms with the left-hander, although no one doubts a settlement will be reached.
Really, how could the Mets refuse? Santana is a young Pedro Martinez – well, maybe not that good, but he’s young (he’ll be 29 in March) and will be the opening-day pitcher, capable of restoring the Mets’ sense of invincibility every fifth day. If Pedro stays healthy, the 1-2 punch should be powerful enough to offset the psychological advantage the Phillies gained after surging past them in the final 17 games of last year’s regular season.
Actually, it was a perfect storm of good fortune for the Mets. Not only did they exploit Smith’s weakened bargaining position, but they benefited from the Yankees and Red Sox’ synchronized caution. Talk about long shots. Who would’ve thought the AL East’s two powerhouses would become so rational at the same time? Major league executives say Smith will rue the day he chose not to jump on the Yankees’ offer of Hughes, Cabrera, Class AA right-hander Jeff Marquez and a prospect of their choosing. That was Dec. 2 and all Smith had to do was say yes.
Incredibly, he waffled. Within 24 hours, Pettitte told the Yankees he intended to pitch again in 2008, prompting the team to reconsider the deal for Santana. Suddenly, Hank Steinbrenner started listening to his brother Hal and Cashman, both of whom pleaded their case for financial restraint. Little by little, Hank Steinbrenner’s craving for Santana diminished; the longer Smith held out, trying to leverage the Yankees and Red Sox against each other, the closer he came to dooming the best deal he could’ve made for Santana.
The Yankees further distanced themselves from Santana when free agent Mike Cameron signed with the Brewers, which meant they’d be stuck for a center fielder had they shipped Cabrera to Minnesota. By early January Hank Steinbrenner officially had taken the Yankees off the Twins’ radar. One person familiar with the Yankees’ decision-making process said “[a four-for-one, Hughes-included deal for Santana] just stopped making sense. If it’d been just the money, or just the players, maybe. But not both.”
Indeed, one talent evaluator said that of all the combinations made available to the Twins, Tuesday’s swap was the fourth or fifth best. Smith undoubtedly will tell the Twins’ fan base that this was the best he could’ve done under the circumstances. It was either accept the Mets’ swap on their terms, or lose Santana to free agency after this season.
But Smith could’ve and should’ve waited longer. One key injury in spring training, and any of Santana’s suitors would’ve come begging. But the rookie GM feared Santana wouldn’t waive his no-trade clause after spring training began; Smith lost his nerve, just as he didn’t have the professional intuition to deal for Hughes when he could have.
Of course, there are caveats all around: The Mets have cleaned out their farm system, which means they had better get an immediate return on their investment from Santana. He had better be healthy, too; that’s no small consideration for a pitcher who allowed 33 home runs in 2007 and lost 3-4 miles off his fastball in his last seven starts.
And Cashman had better be right about his loyalty to Hughes, Joba Chamberlain and Kennedy. Steinbrenner already has put his GM on notice that he has no intention of playing for the wild card. Santana could’ve changed that equation, but for now, the Yankees are content to let the Mets celebrate. And rightfully so.
Can you imagine that change-up in the National League? Talk about an unfair fight.
E-mail: klapisch@northjersey.c
Ellsbury is overrated I don’t know what else to say about it. Gomez is going to be a much better lead off guy with his speed. Slap the ball and bunt is all we need out of him, speed will do the rest.
smith’s kool-aid is good
T says:
January 30th, 2008 at 5:38 pm
I don’t get some of the complaints I’m seeing here.
First Smith was an idiot for even thinking about trading Johan back in December.
Now Smith’s an idiot for not trading him back in December.
And I can go ahead and guess that those of you arguing that you’d have loved to see just one more year of Santana would be the same ones in October wanting his head because he was stupid for not dealing Santana when he had the chance…
t i complety agre with you
i think bill simth was in a no win sith away stion if he kept johan media and fans would be all over him about only geting draft picks and yes he did wait to long but how do you know that the yankes and redsox wouldn’t give up more
Mr. Zach you are very insightful indeed and it made me laugh the calling Yankees and Red Sox “..ass clowns..”. Indeed they are . Twin cities people are a joke,they are attacking Mr. Bill Smith for making the best trade ever like he doesn’t know what he is doing. I really hope that deal sinks and then you Mr. Bill Smith trade for what the fans there want : media hyped Hughes ,great Melky(4TH OUTFIELDER)and another pumped up by media prospect.
or the “top prospects ” by Red Sox.
Smith’s delaying acceptance of December trade offers is wrong ONLY in hindsight.
If you could have seen into the future back then, you would not be a pathetic complaining blogger,
You could have done something with your own life with that gift.
4 solid prospects are better than two draft picks or making the 2 beasts in the east even stronger. It was GOOD to trade him to NL.
If Santana rejects Mets offer he can:
1) Invoke NTC and play with Twins until Free agency;(most likely, worst case for Twins, best case for Santana); or
2)Play for Twins and accept trade during the season.(least likely, best case for Twins, worst case for Santana); or
3)Return to the Twins, accept a new trade to Red Sox and negotiate contact with them.
TYLER:
I don’t think we got Hulvey and Mulvey.
I can’t remember off hand but it’s more like Hummer and Vulva. I’ll have to look it up again.
DANO (book’em?)
You’re right on. Smith had a no win
sith away stion. And a lisp?
Absolute Worst Case Scenario
Santana rejects the Mets, returns to the Twins invokes NTC and signs with the Indians as a Free agent.
We face Santana, Sabathia and Carmona SIX TIMES A YEAR!!!!!!
Can people knock off the kool-aid references? Find a new phrase, for crying out loud. How many of you know where that phrase originates from in the first place?
kenny rogers,
Great stuff!
What would have happened if we had traded Johan to NY or Boston? In a couple of years when the Twins kids’ turned the corner, we might face Johan in the playoffs … A nice part of the deal with the Mets is that he goes to the other league where we don’t have to face him … I still don’t believe all of the rumored deals out of NY and Boston …
SANE:
Thanks, but I’m still trembling from the “worst case scenario”! I finally quit having Jim Thome nightmares, now I gotta worry ’bout that.
REEZEE:
I have a problem with the kool-aid and “sickly” Lester comments also.
I like this guy already:
“Delmon Young, who spoke excitedly about his new team all weekend at TwinsFest, wasn’t deterred by Tuesday’s news.”
“This is better than getting two draft picks [if Santana had left via free agency, like Hunter],” Young said. “He might help the Mets get to the World Series, but it’s probably a great trade for both sides.”
I’m the only one on here and this cowboy had to slow down???
How soon we forget, those scouts you keep bashing are the same guys who convinced management not so long ago to give a Rule 5 draftee, nobody in Minnesota had ever heard a chance—–Johan Santana
kenny rogers,
No matter how many times I reread your 7:15 and 7:19 posts, I lose it every time.
That may mean that I am deranged.
An entertaining podcast is on espn.com with Bill Simmons talking about the santana trade with a major Mets fan. Simmons is a giant Sox homer but like most Sox fans — he’s feeling rather relieved today that we didn’t trade lester or ellsbury. But the discussion with the Mets fan is entertaining (though probably less so for Twins fans.) Mets fans feel that they have won the lottery….and pulled a fast one big time on the Twins (and I have to agree with them). They’re giddy with disbelief. But this also puts the Mets up in the Yanks/ Sox stratosphere for spending — I think the Mets may even surpass the RS at this point if they sign with santana for the money being tossed around. Though it’s hardly just the yanks, sox and mets who are big spenders!! The dodgers, cubs, and mariners are up there too. and by the way, simmons thinks the twins should have held onto Santana…and he and his guest do a riff on how hard it is to be a Minnesota fan. Simmons says that this santana trade puts Minnesota fans in the Buffalo mass suicide index (though he says the Cleveland fans can compete — and Simmons also argues Smith should be fired for losing the game of chicken with the sox and yanks from the winter games — that it’s unpardonable they got no blue chip player in return for baseball’s arguably best pitcher).
LEN III,
The fact is Smith overplayed his hand. Period! The Yankees and Sox took their offers off the table. Olney was right and you were wrong(understandable though)as the Twins hoped to keep the preessure on the Mets.
Elie and Mets fans everywhere: Check out George Vecsey’s article in the NY Times. Sorry, I forgot to link it. It’s front of sports pages. Great reminders: The Mets are still the team that collapsed. They have to prove that is not going to be a habit. Santana can only do so much in 30+ starts. Everybody else has to step up, and the team is basically the same, save for LoDuca being gone. Not trying to rain on anybody’s parade here. But one guy isnt going to change a teams character overnight. The Mets have a whole season to go to make up for a historic choke-job. And the Twins have several seasons to go to prove the skeptics wrong. Besides, Santana and Co. havent exactly had stellar play-off success here. I mean, what is the plateau for this team anyhow? I think we reached it in the ALCS a few years back. Time to move on, so let the movin’ on begin. And good luck to the Mets and to Johan. He’s a good guy, going to a good organization….why not be happy for them!
mona lisa - you are right about most of that. one thing signing will do is put the spring training focus on HIM and not the collapse.
also, you guys might like to read this:
from mlb.com
Despite the concerns voiced by some, one person who said he felt the Twins made out pretty well in the deal was former Mets pitcher Tom Glavine, who recently signed a one-year deal with the Braves.
“I think Carlos Gomez has a chance to be a fantastic player,” Glavine said of his former teammate. “You hear a lot about five-tool guys and he’s definitely a legit five-tool guy. Humber, the same way, has a great arm and great potential. Long-term, this could be a very good trade for the Twins.”
Once again, a major sports general manager in the state of minnesota gets hosed on a deal and is a laughingstock to the rest of the sports world.
Now that santana is gone, the twins have alot of young pitching and nathan, they will package a deal with nathan and 1 or 2 young pitchers to bring in a a stud young infielder to play ss or 3rd. a player like brandon wood from the angles or one of the young stud from the marlins or diamondbacks, the twins are a 81-81 team right now with a lot of young talent to make a move. the are not done making moves the offseason.
Baseball America’s view:
Santana Return Not Enough For Twins
Jan. 29, 2008
by Jim Callis
With a full no-trade clause and the right to walk away as a free agent after the 2008 season, Johan Santana was able to exert more control over his destiny than most players ever could dream of. After trade rumors swirled around him throughout the offseason, he wanted his situation resolved this week. The Twins risked getting nothing but two draft picks for the best pitcher of baseball if they stood pat for now and he decided to exercise his no-trade rights in the future.
The Yankees apparently took Phil Hughes off the table in their trade talks with Minnesota, and perhaps the Red Sox were happier to let Santana go to the National League rather than part with a considerable package of young talent to get him. That’s the best explanation as to why the Twins agreed on Tuesday to send Santana to the Mets for four young players: outfielder Carlos Gomez and righthanders Deolis Guerra, Philip Humber and Kevin Mulvey.
That deal hinges on New York’s ability to sign Santana to a long-term contract before a 5 p.m. ET deadline on Friday. Santana’s asking price is reportedly as high as $150 million over six years.
Minnesota might be better off if those talks collapse, giving new Twins GM Bill Smith a chance to find a better return for Santana. While he’s going to command possibly the richest contract ever given to a pitcher, Santana is the best pitcher in the game. And Smith didn’t get enough for him.
Guerra (No. 2), Gomez (No. 3), Mulvey (No. 4) and Humber (No. 7) all ranked prominently on our Mets Top 10 Prospects list. But there’s simply too much risk involved in this deal for Minnesota.
The two best prospects in the trade, Guerra and Gomez, come with high ceilings but also lack a lot of polish and have a long ways to go to reach their potential. The odds that they both will do so are slim.
Guerra has an 89-94 mph fastball and a promising changeup and he’s only 18. But he also has a below-average breaking ball, has yet to pitch more than 90 innings in a season and while he has held his own, he hasn’t dominated. Gomez had the best package of tools in the Mets system, but his bat is still extemely raw as evidenced by his career .273/.331/.384 averages in the minors.
Mulvey has an arsenal of four average pitches and throws strikes. He’s not overpowering and he’s most likely a No. 4 starter. Since having Tommy John surgery in 2005, Humber hasn’t fully regained the stuff that made him the No. 3 overall pick in the 2004 draft. His curveball is his best pitch but his fastball now sits at 87-91 mph. He too projects as a No. 4 starter.
The Twins have traded Santana for two high-reward but also high-risk prospects, and two back-of-the-rotation starters. They didn’t get a prospect whose combination of ceiling and certainty approaches that of Hughes, whom the Yankees were willing to deal for Santana earlier in the winter. They didn’t get a package comparable to the ones the Red Sox reportedly offered earlier, fronted by either Jacoby Ellsbury and Jon Lester and also containing two solid prospects nearly ready for the majors: righty Justin Masterson and shortstop Jed Lowrie.
By this point, however, the Yankees were no longer willing to part with Hughes and the Red Sox may have reduced their offers as well. But even if that left the Mets as the only serious bidders, the Twins should have insisted on New York’s top prospect, outfielder Fernando Martinez.
As it was, Minnesota’s return doesn’t compare favorably to the six-player package the Athletics extracted from the Diamondbacks for Dan Haren. The A’s also got two quality arms from the White Sox for Nick Swisher.
The Twins entered the offseason with three potential frontline starters on their big league roster. They since have traded Santana and Matt Garza, and they’re going to need Francisco Liriano to return to health and their offense to pick up an awful lot of slack.
me, i’m a little ticked at Santana and his agent, I know that they have every right to demand a deadline, but a deadline of ONE DAY, seriously? at least a deadline of this Saturday, give the Twins a little bit more of an upper hand to push the Mets into at least giving up Pelfrey along with those four, but to give them a deadline of one day is ridiculous and selfish…yes, you could say that the Twins should have had the deal done months ago, and i would agree 100%, but with the timing, the Twins already had said they wanted the deal done within 10 days, so Johan, at least let them have FIVE of those, not a partial day…
You almost have to feel sorry for Bill Smith. This is a mess he inherited from Terry Ryan. If Ryan had done his job, Tori and Johan would already be under contract.
rob - I would take Glavine’s words with a grain of salt. He’s back with the Braves and doesn’t care much for the Mets now.
Humber didn’t even have a great arm before TJ surgery. He tops out at 91 and relies on a good curveball that lost some of its bite. Not sure what Glavine is talking about. Gomez only showed 3 tools in the majors. The Mets hoped he could develop some power and fix the hole in his swing. Again, have no idea what Glavine was seeing since clearly Gomez is a 3 tool and not 5 tool player right now.
Given that Santana had to be traded, I’m glad he went to the Mets, even if the Twins took a slightly less attractive package, for two reasons.
1. We won’t have to play against him, except for interleague and postseason
2. I’m excited to see him hit in the NL, He’s such an awesome athelete that I wonder if he’ll be one of the best hitting pitchers in the league.
i put it more on the players and the owner, Ryan had jack squat of a payroll to work with, how was he supposed to pay them? and the players demanded more from the Twins then they really should have…$20 million is absolutely friggin ridiculous…sorry, they just arent worth that much, the market is falling apart and I am scared to see what kind of money will be dealt within the next 10-15 years…
OK, I joined the party late, and I wasn’t about to read all 426 comments. So…
You’re telling me that the Red Sox just threw 6 years $100M at a Japanese player who never pitched an MLB game before, but 6 years $120M for Santana was out of the question?!?
Wow!
Troy,
Make it POTENTIAL for four tools.
Gomez has real power in batting practice which some day may translate into games.
For that matter, when (and if)he learns how to hit the slider, it may become five tools.
There IS a difference between tools and game skills.
Sane,
Is batting practice power better than warning track power?
Big difference
Troy,
Some five tool players don’t show hitting or power in games until they really learn to hit, ie young Torii Hunter.
roundabout,
Warning track power is better.
It is easier to get stronger than it is to become a good hitter against pitchers that are trying to get you out.
These are some posts from back in December. Most probably have forgotten but nearly everyone was supportive of BS and did not think any of the offers were sufficient.
XXXXX says:
December 2nd, 2007 at 11:38 pm
You know, screw the Yanks. The Twins should not let the Yanks swindle them for the best pitcher in baseball. It’s a matter of principle. We’ll offer you the closest lock you can ever get, and he also happens to be the best, and you won’t offer us your best prospect? Cano and Chamberlain are unequivocally off the table? BS. We’ll keep Santana for this year, try to beat you guys as much as we can with him, then risk letting him walk and take the draft picks we get for him, which might pan out better than Hughes and Cabrera. Seriously . . . HUGHES AND CABRERA? Cabrera hit worse than Kubel last year. And Hughes was injured. What a bogus poo poo platter.
XXXXX says:
December 2nd, 2007 at 11:43 pm
Melky doesn’t do it for me. He’s average. Hughes is obviously great, but Martinez, the Yanks AAA shortstop is said to be good in the field, weak at the plate.
Lowrie, the Sox SS/2B is the opposite–weak in the field, tough at the plate. Ellsbury is great, but what are our plans for Pridie and Span in the future? Lester would pair great with Liriano’s power and Slowey’s control, but Boston won’t throw Ellsbury and Lester in the deal.
Unless we give up Nathan…at which point we would be directly responsible for making the Celts and the Sox the most dominate teams in the league.
I still think our best potential lies out west with the Dodgers/Angels/Mariners 3B/SS prospects, but Johan wants to be in the spotlight out east.
XXXX says:
December 2nd, 2007 at 11:45 pm
Aaron, the AAA shortstop is Alberto Gonzalez.
XXX says:
December 2nd, 2007 at 11:46 pm
Dude, seriously?!?! Keep him at this point? You’ll have him for one year, he’ll walk, and you’ll get nothing for him other than 1st round or sandwich round pick. And those are a crapshoot in baseball. And then you’ll be ticked Smith sat on his hands…
XXXX says:
December 3rd, 2007 at 12:02 am
1st round AND sandwich round … but still.
No matter what, Hughes and Cabrera are not enough. Regardless of what the Yankees and their (for the most part) clueless fans seem to think.
XXXX says:
December 3rd, 2007 at 12:03 am
Even ESPN has started realizing that the offers from the Yankees and Red Sox are not nearly enough, and that both clubs are risking allowing other clubs (like the Dodgers) into the sweepstakes.
XXXXX says:
December 3rd, 2007 at 12:55 am
I’m not too concerned about the reports of Santana’s demands/limitations. Let’s point out that it’s all coming from out-of-state media. You know, those folks who are more interested in seeing Santana go to the Yankees/Red Sox, and so would be apt to help lubricate a deal thusly.
I also am not too afraid of the Yankees threat of pulling back their offer. Can anyone say “A-Rod”?
I think Bill Smith has been playing the whole situation brilliantly, and that he’ll get exactly as much as we can for Santana, regardless of who that’s from.
My only fear is that Johan won’t go into the Hall of Fame as a Twin.
XXXX says:
December 3rd, 2007 at 5:26 am
If Bill Smith walks away from the current offers, I for one will have an immediate high respect for him and will not complain about getting just 2 draft picks in then event Johan walks after the season. Yes, it is a business and part of what makes a successful business and culture is sticking to your principles. I can also be a great PR move for the Twins to say to their fans we will not be bullied and bow down to the east coast teams. We are not a farm system for NY and Boston. They can bid 175 plus for him next offseason.
Not having a guy like hughes or elsbury will hurt of course, but I think longer term it is in the best interest of the Twins.
Now, throw Lester or Kennedy into the mix and I’ll take it. But as I said before, remove Melky from that yankee trade and take 2 of their minor league prospects like Jackson, Tabata or Gonzales.
Sign Barry Bonds …
DH
Hawk,
You are correct - many Twins fans here felt the team deserved more for Santana.
Others (like myself) politely pointed out that the market for Santana was not that strong and the Twins would have to settle for less. Santana’s price - in yougn players and money over 6-7 years - was high.
Those projections have turned out to be correct. The two main bidders - Yanks and Red Sox - dropped out. In the Yankees’ case dropped out in December (though few people accepted it).
Mets swooped in and got the best pitcher in baseball for prospects.
We’ll see if those prospects provide for the Twins..
the sad part is somehow the season opener sold out in 1 hour.. how sad… and people wont sell them away for a decent price.. i dont call 300% higher decent how sad… seems like twins fans dont really care about this… thats really annoying…
nice work, hawk. i would be interested in seeing what other things have been consistently said over the last couple of months.
as for glavine, he may or may not turn out to be right about either of them, but they were both in camp with him last year and he got to see quite a bit from gomez. from what i hear, people like having him as a teammate (unlike milledge, who got traded for very little)
If I was the GM of the Twins, I would have gotten it wrong also. Similar to “Deal or No Deal”, the big money went off the board and we should have stopped earlier…..but if the Dodgers, Angels, Mets, or whatever team had come in a the last minute and offered “the house”, then BS would be a hero. Second guessing is easy when you already know the correct answer.
I will no longer buy tickets, or jerseys or spend another cent on my beloved twins, or any baseball team for that matter until someone gets that damn players union under control and there is some balance in baseball. I realize the Twins had to make this trade, and really, all their options sucked, I would have been upset if they made any of those deals. I will not pay a cent.
Another thing, Im not sure how much a new stadium will help the twins. Many teams have gotten or are getting new stadiums. The mets for example are getting a new stadium. They will be making more revenue, and raising the prices for pitchers even more. So it will continue to be uneven until there is some kind of competitive balance. The mlb “salary cap” is a joke.
We NEED to trade Nathan at the deadline for a top of the rotation pitcher, veteran or prospect it does not matter. Does everyone agree on that? The Twins know have improved their offense, but now, other than Liriano we have a bunch of good,quality #4,#5 guys. WE NEED to get another top three pitcher in a Nathan trade.
Getting a top three pithcher is more important than getting a good 3B prospect IMO
wouldnt it be funny if we traded nathan we get good players in return and we resign him after he becomes a free agent? lol I like that idea whose with me?
I would (probably) have gotten this one “right” because I think I would have jumped as soon as the Yankees included Hughes. I was also in the minority here who thought that Smith might be overplaying his hand by asking for too much. Still, I’m not that upset with Bill Smith. He gambled and lost; that’s all there is to it. I have to believe he was aware of this possibility back in December and he decided to take the chance. It didn’t work out this time, but no GM makes the right call all the time.
Hawk - FANTASTIC POST!!!! Thank you very much. I always planned to dig up comments from the past like that but never did.
All this hindsight perception is just driving me nuts. This blog was totally dominated by that talk and worse. And I read several media articles, both here and nationally, highly PRAISING Smith for his wisdom in standing tall and waiting for the right offer. ESPN included. From the same guys who are now bashing him.
Seriously, do none of them or none of the sky is falling people here actually remember saying those things????
Roundabout - I do remember you saying the Twins should grab one of the offers because they weren’t going to get better. You were ripped up and down for it.
Salary caps are against what this country stands for, it won’t make any difference to a number of teams, other than make the owners richer.
Tyler,
I am not sure I do… we have cash, at this point I would rather stop the bleeding. I think we take for granted how difficult it is to acquire one of the top players at his position… we have lost two already this off season, three might be the difference between having hope and being just bad.
And I specifically remember several of the regular posters here who are now yelling the loudest being among the loudest back then in saying Smith would be an idiot for not demanding more. If you said at the time he should take those offers (for what it’s worth I did say that), then by all means rip him. But if you were among those saying he had to hold out then how can you be yelling?
My prediction - Smith will try to sign Nathan to a respectable contract without a no trade clause, or as limited a clause as possible. Both to solidify this team (he still wants to do as well as possible this year), and to leave himself the option of trading him later if the team does tank this year.
Prediction #2 - He’ll try to sign Kenny Lofton for CF so Gomez can have a year in the minors, which he really needs. He now has the money, and the freedom to spend it.
Prediction #3 - He’ll seriously look at getting a veteran starting pitcher, but that might work since there are so few decent ones out there.
