Some Twins notes
Posted on January 31st, 2008 – 3:04 PMBy La Velle
Despite this development, we expect the Mets and Johan Santana to eventually agree on a contract and end this mess.
Just emptying the notebook today….
Carlos Gomez has 141 days of service time, which means he’ll reach super-2 arbitration status if he’s on the major league roster for all of 2008 and 2009.
To qualify as a Super 2, a player must have accumulated at least 86 days of service in the previous year. (A year of service is 172 days. The historical cutoff point for Super 2 status is 2 years, 128 days of service, though the requirement has been as high as 2 years, 140 days.) (This was blatantly stolen from another website!)
Jesse Crain said during TwinsFest that his shoulder felt great and planned to start throwing breaking balls this week. Crain had surgery on his labrum and rotator cuff last year but stressed that he didn’t have complete tears and expects to be ready by Opening Day. Still it will be interesting to monitor his velo in camp.
The Twins intentionally paired Delmon Young and Michael Cuddyer for some TwinsFest appearances. Let the mentoring begin….
Dmitri Young, by the way, was in town last weekend (I don’t know why) and took his little brother out.
Corey Koskie stopped by TwinsFest and said he was going to start working out this week. This is an important time for Koskie, who hasn’t played since July 2006 because of postconcussion syndrome suffered while chasing a fly ball.
He said if he’s not in a position to join a club by midseason, he’ll retire.
The Twins are kicking around signing a veteran starter for the back end of the rotation. Josh Fogg and John Thomson are possibilities. They may just hand the keys to the kids.
Guess who Carlos Gomez’s agent is? Scott Boras.
One more thing…The Twins have 39 spots filled on their 40-man. Santana will come off to make it 38. Only Gomez and Humber have to go on this year, so the Twins have space.
Another thing…uniform numbers! Place your orders now!!!
Delmon Young - 21
Brendan Harris - 23
Adam Everett - 12
Mike Lamb - 24
Craig Monroe - 27
Humber wore 49 for the Mets last year, which I think is available if he makes the team. Gomez wore 27, so he might have to change if he and Monore make the team….
423 Responses to "Some Twins notes"
len3 could johan come back to the twins if he doesn’t sign? what a mess that would be!
Maybe Dimitri was in town for some follow up treatment. I am not sure he went through it here, but he did go through some.
Boras is usually pretty easy to deal with. He never inflates the value of his players. Wait he Does????
He and Mr. Smith should have some good talks.
LEN III
When are the Mauer extension talks going to start up?
Any chance that ruins your offseason in 2 years?
if we have to worry about boras and gomez’s contract that means he has turned into a very good player and it would be a nice problem to have. if he turns into a dud his agent won’t matter.
Did the twins know that Boras is his agent? Well it looks like Gomez is not going to stay with the twins for many years.
This offseason has been very humbling for Senor Boras. It may not have done anything to actually beat down his attitude but there’s no telling whether this is the beginning of a change for him or whether he’ll come back nastier than ever.
Either way, who cares? It’s a ways off.
Christina- to respond to a question from the last thread…
Gomez did not play in the AFL this year. He did play in the Caribbean League though and put up a .262/.331/.327 line, which isnt much, but far better than Lowrie’s .163/.236/.245 line in the AFL.
Both small sample sizes Gomez- 29 games, Lowrie 24…
Great, 5 years of Scott Boras taking every contract to arbitration…
Speaking of Boras, I would feel better about the Johan deal if somehow the Mets allow themselves to get stuck with Kyle Lohse for about 10 mil a year.
If the Mets can’t sign Santana long term,
1)How much would the Mets shrink their trade offer for a one-year rental of Santana?
and
(2)Would the Sox or Yankees come back into the picture for a one-year rental?
and if no one offered an acceptable long term deal,
(3) Would Santana accept the one year rental with a contender with Free Agency available in November?
Kyle Lohse as Mets back up plan? Mets will bow to Santana.
If Twins are so high on Gomez they better throw some money and years on him now. Otherwise, they will have to deal with Boras when he has the advantage.
The Mets deserve Kyle Lohse.
If they agree to the type of deal that Santana is demanding, the press will start talking about how the Mets were taken to the cleaners rather than the Twins.
hahahahhahhahahahhaa
All the talk this winter, “The Twins don’t want Ellsbury. He’s a Boras client.” and then *phoomph*
Cap… I read today that Manaya is still interested in siging Lohse, even after they sign Santana… I think it was the ESPN article that LaVelle posted uptop…
Mat, I always thought that was a stupid line of thinking anyway…
We have had Boras clients before… now we have another…
I am still having a hard time getting over how easily the fans are letting Santana off on this whole thing.
Sane — No way should the Twins allow the Mets to reduce the price of the trade because they can’t get him signed.
As for the talk of trading Nathan to the Sox it should have been looked at during the Johan discussions.
The Sox had looked at having Paplebohn be a starter last year. If they still have any of that thinking a Nathan trade to them for Lowrie, Masterson and something else would seem logical.
Lastly do we really want Johan “I held a gun to your head” Santana back?
All the more reason to hang on to Revere and hope for the best. About the time Gomez hits arbitration eligibility, Revere can step in and the Twins can still trade Gomez for something pretty decent. Of course, as gobble pointed out, it’s only an issue if Gomez approaches that high ceiling he’s supposed to have. If not… ain’t no big thing who his agent is.
Man, I’ve got to get an Everett #12 jersey! Has anyone seen these available yet?….
BFE, it’s not a matter of the Twins reducing the price if there’s no agreement on an extension. The trade was made subject to the 72 hour negotiating window. If there’s no contract extension, I assume the Mets simply void the deal.
In addition, Santana can refuse to waive his NTC if the Twins try to trade him to someone who won’t negotiate an extension.
If the Mets and Santana don’t come to an agreement, I think Johan will be pitching for the Twins in 2008 and then waive goodbye and the Twins will get draft picks. Maybe he’ll agree to a midseason “rental” trade to a contender if the Twins are out of contention… or maybe he won’t.
LEN-Reading all the blogs about the Johan trade,i have a money saving idea for Carl P.Fire the whole FO and scouting staff.Just monitor this website.They know more about who to draft and who to trade for than those stupid professional baseball people.
he doesn’t want to be here tho so it would make for some bad times at gardy high. won’t be playing the game the right way with one foot out the door!
I’m still trying to make sense of all this.
Let me begin by saying: beware of the no-trade clause.
When we sign a player this is about the last thing we consider. Dollars and years are the primary considerations. No trades, all-star bonuses and the like rarely enter fans’ consciousness.
In this case it diminished the Twins’ leverage. I’m not sure by how much though.
Let me ask this: Were we able to deal Johan to any team as a one year rental with an exclusive right to negotiate an extension, either now or at any time until the trade deadline, how much more, if any, could we have gotten. I think quite a bit.
I’m quite interested in your take.
yanks sign morgan ensberg! see a trend? yanks-astros=juice! morgan had some good years who were his team mates?
I know this is a pipe dream and will never happen, but when the heck are these owners and GMs going to wake up and just say no to these contract demands?
GENO, it’s absolutely ridiculous to think that you/we could do anywhere near the job that the FO is doing. It is MUCH more difficult than we make it sound like it is. I can’t believe the amount of space that is wasted on these blogs with people saying “they should do this” and then say something so unrealistic in wouldn’t even happen in fantasy baseball.
But Gomez is the centerpiece in the trade Lowrie is not. If we compare Gomez with Ellsbury we can see that Ellsbury is better. Lowrie is a plus
JimCrikket,
If Johan stays with Twins for 08, I think I would put him in the bullpen for the first month, unless he wants to revisit that 4yr/80 million dollar extension without the no trade clause. I guess that’s just sour grapes on my part.
I don’t see Johan as a bad guy for wanting this taken care of before Spring Training.
First, it allows him to pitch in the season without every outing starting with the question of, “Johan, any idea on what you’re doing next year?”
Second, it means he doesn’t have to find a new place and move into temporary accommodations during the season. He can find a place, set it up, and be comfortable. Then once the season starts, he can just worry about his mechanics.
With Gomez possibly getting to super2 after 2009 if he plays all year don’t be surprised if he doesn’t make the team out of spring training and needs to “develop” some take charge attitude in Center for April, May and part of June, in order to avoid that Super2 status. If you are worried about Boras it is good that the Twins didn’t trade for Ellsbury.
Mat, I agree that Johan is not a bad guy. I’m sure he wants all he can get and realizes he will likely set another precedent for the players association.
Who cares is Boras is his agent? That doesn’t make one bit of difference. The only reason Boras is famous is becuase he has most of the big name sports figures. He’s not some diety that can get his clients twice the money they deserve.
Christina:
Ellsbury was ranked the 19th best prospect by Keith Law and Gomez the 35th best prospect in all of baseball. Yes ellsbury has a higher rating by most scouts, but that does not mean the Twins scouts would be wrong to like Gomez better…Time will tell, but to say the Twins screwed up by preferring Gomez to Ellsbury is not a cut and dry mistake at this point.
La Velle, do you think that Gomez will start in center this year? He was really over rushed in the Mets organization and would really benefit from a year in AAA with them maybe a September call-up. I think he should definitely be there all year.
I don’t believe the “one year rental” is even a consideration in the trade. My understanding is that the whole trade is contingent upon Santana signing an extension. If he doesn’t, then Santana goes back to the Twins and the prospects back to the Mets.
Robert,
I certainly think it’s a non-issue. But there were all sorts of posts this winter about not wanting Ellsbury b/c of the Boras representation. This just makes it a little poetic justice.
Why do people want to throw Gomez back in the minors and keep Pridie in the bigs? Or sign Lofton/Patterson and put all three (Gomez, Span, Pridie) back in AAA? As ST plays out, one of them will win the job. Let Gardy do his job.
This trade is not as bad as most people make it out to sound. Gomez’s stats compare favorably to the young Torii Hunter’s. Plus he is faster. He will be a good player and bring much needed speed and excitement to the basepaths.
Hawk,
One reason is that the Mets hav a reputation for rushing their prospects.
A 21 year old Gomez didn’t cut it. But a 23 year-old Ellsbury has everybody agog. Age is important.
We no longer are playing for 2008. We might want to see what a 23 year-old Gomez, who has been able to work on his hitting flaws at Rochester, can do in 2009.
so what you’re saying is which ever one hits .200, slides into 1b and can’t bunt gardy puts in cf?
SoCalJeff - I think that’s exactly the point GENO was trying to make. He was using a devise called, sarcasm.
Heine….then where do Pridie and Span play?
Gobble, as long as that player “plays the game right” and “really gets at it” I’m sure they will be in CF.
Mr. Boras will arbitrate as soon as he possibly can, because he can. Arbitration is a no-lose propisition for the players. They have the guaranteed offer from the club even if they lose the arb. And clubs can’t lowball arb’s, because then they will lose the case. Arbitration is the worst thing the owners ever caved on, and it continues to cost them more and more every year. Parasites like Boras make millions because of the arbitration structures. If this Gomez guy is any good at all, the Twins will be paying absolute top dollar for him as soon as he is eligible. This will become much more than a “non-issue” as the years go by.
If that’s the case then I agree with him, but it doesn’t change the fact that there are way too many people who think that they can do a better job. I know our FO has made some errors and been very conservative in the past, but the fact that we’ve been a competitive team for as many years in a row as we have, and we the future looks bright really says a lot about a FO who has so little money to spend in comparison to the teams we’ve been in the playoffs with the last 5 years.
JimCrikket,
I was answering someone elses post on if we should allow the Mets to reduce their price and change the deal to a one year rental. Like stated I would absolutely not do this.
As far as Johan invoking his NTC fine. He can take the chance of an injury and see what he gets on the open market.
My guess is like a lot of stuff on this blog we are talking about what ifs’…an the Mets will end up signing Johan.
i was joking last fall that he could get 8yr 200m next winter and it may be close to that. if he doen’t sign there will be open revolt in bronx.
i think johan adopted sprewell’s kids, how can you support a family on that much?
By Jon Heyman, SI.com
The Mets and superstar pitcher Johan Santana are making progress on a multi-year contract that’s likely to guarantee him about $150 million, according to people familiar with the talks. With Friday’s 5 p.m. ET deadline approaching, the sides are believed to be more than $20 million apart, but high-ranking baseball people believe the deal is all but certain to get done.
One person with knowledge of the talks pegged a recent Mets offer at about $21.5 million per year over six years on top of the $13.25 million salary Santana’s already guaranteed for 2008, bringing the total package to $142.25 million.
It is believed Santana has been seeking a deal closer to $170 million total. The Mets had been hopeful to lure Santana with a five-year offer but Santana’s side gained significant leverage after the Mets made what is seen as a favorable trade to acquire him.
Baseball people believe they can’t fail to sign him. “It has to get done,” one baseball executive said.
Said another exec, “The Mets can’t walk away.”
Hawk,
Pridie in the show, either as a starter or, more likely, as the Sweet Lou/Tyner replacement while Lofton or Patterson man center. Span? Well you certainly don’t plot your future around Denard.
My point is that, even if he is the best option this spring, he is reputed to have two hitting flaws: strike zone and breaking ball. He is also reputed to have the tools to be a top-notch player.
My goal then is to do whatever in 2008 is most likely to advance him to be that top-notch player. Beyond that, 2008 is irrelevant.
If learning by fire is the best route, OK. If the slow-steady approach works best, OK also. But his contribution to the Twins success in 2008 should not be a factor. (Unless, of course, we find ourselves, against all odds, in a race.)
Mat - Johann is a bad guy in this deal period. If he had not put a deadline on this deal, they never would have made it.
gobble: Mets are in Queens. The Bronx folks don’t like to be confused with them - and vice versa.
I cant wait to get my #21 Delmon Young jersey!!!!
If Johan takes a five-year deal there will be uproar because that’s what the Twins offered just with less money. I’ll be happy when he has signed so that people can finally talk about it. I want to hear what Johan and the Twins FO has to say about the deal. Maybe we can stop guessing on what happened then.
sorry to any ny fan that was offended! like saying the wild play in mpls, eh?
The reason that baseball salaries are so high is that the average fan gets snookered into the idea that the player is really good so it must be market value. I’m sorry but 7 years and 150 million dollars is not market value for a pitcher who plays once every 5 days!
JT — Thanks for the update. An here is hoping the Mets make the big mistake and giving Johan 6 or 7 years.
I don’t love the trade but it is better then being stuck at the tail end of that contract.
Waste of Money (Twins got Lamb; Yanks got Ensberg)
Morgan Ensberg Signs With Yankees
According to a source, the Yankees have signed Morgan Ensberg. They’ll use him at first base (and maybe off the bench). Not sure if it’s a minor or Major League deal. Jerry Crasnick confirms it, noting that the Rays and Giants expressed interest.
Ensberg, 32, hit .231/.320/.404 for the Astros and Padres in ‘07. He earned $4.35MM, and the Padres non-tendered him in December. The Astros had designated him for assignment in July after acquiring Ty Wigginton. Ensberg has not been the same since seriously bruising his shoulder in June of ‘06.
Brad Wilkerson Signs With Mariners
The Mariners officially signed Brad Wilkerson today to a one-year deal. Scott Boras says he’s a good fit even if the Ms don’t trade Adam Jones, which is questionable. The Seattle Times’ Larry Stone considers this signing a “possible precursor to finalization” of a Jones trade. So maybe progress has been made on the Bedard front.
Seems to me that the Super 2 thing will pretty much guarantee that Gomez plays in Rochester for a chunk to start the season. Which is probably a good thing as that is where he belongs.
I would agree JT
pirdie gets a shot i hope, and i’d rather start our guys on the mound then the mets guys as well.
and can anybody tell me diffrence btwn span and gomez?
1. - S. Baker
2. - B. Bonser
3. - K. Slower
4. - P. Humber
5. - F. Liriano
5a. - K. Mulvey
The more I think about this one, I think one of the major motivations for the Twins FO in making the deal with the Mets was that the Mets were gonna be over the barrel on meeting Johan’s contract demands. Much more so than the Red Sox certainly. Once the Twins pull the trigger, it has to be consummated. The odds of that happening increase with a Mets deal over the Red Sox.
Poochie, you are right in that Boras will play a role in the Twins’s relationship with Gomez as soon as Gomez becomes a Super 2. In addition to arbitration for 3 years, it means he will not be a Twin when he becomes free agent eligible. Boras recommends all of his clients go the free agent route, and nearly all take that recommendation. That being said, funny things can happen along the way and Boras has been known to lose clients. Maybe the kid won’t develop into a player the club wants to keep (I hope that is not the case, by the way).
Kevlarstorm, I’m not sure I understand your comment. Market value is what the market will bear. It bore $90 million over 5 years for Hunter, for example, so that was his market value. That doesn’t mean the Twins should have paid that for various reasons, but it was his market value.
dan at work — about .100 OPS and two years of age.
Dan,
To start with
772/777 AA/AAA for Carlos age 20/21
Apprx 695/678 AA/AAA Denard age 22/23
Remember, age is significant.
GOBBLEDYGOOK:
Gomez’ rookie card says he’s a good bunter, so take that back.
Wait a minute. We traded JOHAN SANTANA FOR A GUY THAT’S A GOOD BUNTER????
If I can sum up the angst of the naysayers so far this offseason:
* We should not have traded Garza and Morlan
* We should have signed Hunter for $18 million a year
* We should have signed Santana for $25 million a year
* We should not have signed Everett
In other words, we should have the same team as last year. A team that, if memory serves, finished SEVENTEEN games out of first place. However, we would have a payroll that was about $15 million higher because of two players.
Will someone please explain to me why that’s a good thing?
hey espn just put their top 100 prospect list, twinks have 3, 2 thanks to the mets, guerra , gomez, and robertson, gomes came out on top at 35.
fyi martinez was #10
the reason i made the span and gomez comparison, is they are both speedy yet unproven with hitting abilty. so pirdie it is in center. or monroe if he can make a comeback.
Let’s just hope Gomez’s speed and lack of hitting ability doesn’t look like Troy Williamsen’s speed and lack of pass catching ability.
Dan…..
Gomez is 6?4?, 195lbs. Span is 6?0?, 185lbs.
Gomez is 18hrs in 1291 minor league ABs and Span has hit 7hrs in 1939 ABs.
Gomez had a 82% successful steal percentage. Span has 66%.
Gomez has 125 major league at bats while Span has zero.
Gomez is much bigger, faster, and stronger than Span.
Pridie has zero major league at bats….so now he’s an MLB CF’er by default???
i now see, the diffrence ,but i would like to see them battle each other in salt lake with piride geting his shot.
no just want to see every tampa bay devil ray piece involved in the opening day roster, and he might have the best bat out of all them
gomez could be very good, but i remeber early hunter days, and would rather see him devlop in salt lake until he learns to hit a slider ,and bat off the back of his foot to devlop power.
best case for this year is monroe comes back to form, and takes us back to playoffs on his shoulders the way he did with detroit awhile back.
Dan….you might be right about Pridie but we won’t know until ST starts. It’ll be a real horse race to see who comes out on top. To me, we don’t need to “rent” a veteran CF for one year.
Sane made the case about letting our young SP’s get the ball often as possible instead of signing a veteran who would take away innings. I feel the same way about our CF’s.
Johan fails to sign with the mets and all he ll breaks lose . . .
If hitting an outside breaking pitch was a pre-requisite for the bigs, then Hunter would still be in AAA.
it will be a battle, and you are right about our sp, gosh those ponson and ortiz starts could have benfited slowley or others much better. i just want them to put a decent bat, cause out pitchers are gonna need the run support.
i agree about no patterson or lofton,
but i really am pulling for monroe. hes a nice guy who would be a heck of a force if he could revert to form.
hopefully not a rondell white, but hey he sucked cause he was off the juice.
There’s always plenty of ABs for someone driving the ball and knocking in some RBI’s. Doesn’t matter who it is, just that someone is. Tyner is a good ball player but not what we needed.
I think the Twins should sign Josh Fogg and Corey Patterson. Kenny Lofton isn’t a starter any more. These two would help a really young team. Fogg was on fire the last part of the season.
“Guess who Carlos Gomez’s agent is? Scott Boras.” Insult to injury.
AAA team is now Rochester.. As far as players, I say let Humber be the player on the Big league roster pitching, let Gomez season atA AA along with the other P, and the young phenim seasona dn develop.
Bring in Fogg, Lofton, let lofton battle with Pridie for the CF with Monroe,
Sing Nathan to a 4 year deal.
Hitting has improved and despite Johans 15 wins, let’s hope one of the kids catches on.
This is still a good trade.
If the Twins hadnot brought in Young, Lamb, Everett, and Monroe, we would have allot to cry about and could throw in the towel.
Win Twins!
DW….Fogg on fire? I must have missed it. He didn’t look very impressive during the WS.
Fogg has a career 4.90 ERA in the NL. Can not imagine it going down in the AL with tougher teams and a DH.
Hawk,
Leaving the Colorado is always good for pitchers.
They are better off pitching on the moon.
i sure hope this season isnt like the t-puppies where my main ? at the opener was when does the draft start.
we should take the money we saved and keep it for whoever excels this season to a long term deal ie lirrano and or kubel, i am predicting big things for both.
From MLBTRADERUMORS.COM
Did someone mention this yet?? I didnt see it
Santana Extension Talk
UPDATE, 1-31-08 at 5:10pm: Jon Heyman says the Mets are offering a six-year, $129MM extension starting with the ‘09 season. Including his ‘07 salary that would amount to seven years and $142.25MM. Santana’s people want to get the total up around $170MM.
johan wants 7 years at about 24.28mil per year
ummmm, ummmm
ya know what.. I don’t think the Sox or Yanks were going to pay that much..
and if the Mets meet that asking price. they are absurd..
That is a whole hell of a lot of money for a starting pitcher..
Hmmm, soo.. anyone think Johan is the Twins Opening Day Starter??
its a good thing Smith ended up making the deal with the Mets, cuz i think they are the only team that HAS to have Johan, and when you HAVE to have something, you will get it at any costs..
Why dont we just let them get to Spring Traing and see who goes where. A bunch of you people are saying what to do with out even giving a chance i mean if he can let him play for a spot on the roster. Oh and pitching in Denver is not the same now that they keep there basaballs in a humidifer so thats is not long a scape goat.
Or, do the mets let the offer fall through and take back their prospects???
then they get johan after this season?
I don’t know how these things work, but this could get ugly if Johan ends up back in Minnesota..
No wonder why he wouldnt accept 5 years 100 mil
I agree in saving the money. Since there is really no one out there worth signing.
P’s - colon, Garcia, Fogg, — yuck!!
OF’ Lofton or Patterson — play the kid that wins. Monroe is a bench/DH/4th OF.
Use the money next year on a stud P and ideally a 3B or SS.
See what Nathan wants for an extension or look at trading him.
If I am the Mets I stand tough. Johan will sign. No way he walks away from that kind of CASH!! An risk injury this year.
Chance of Johan being a Twin in 2008 about 100-1
BFE - (Hi Bill) I agree on the pitchers, but I would like to see Lofton here. He still is effective, and I think Gomez should spend most of the year in the minors.
I previously thought they should trade Nathan, too. But now I think if he’ll take a reasonable long term deal with a limited or no no-trade clause we should sign him. Then if we are decent, great. Otherwise we can trade him down the road when we better know what we need.
Everybody:
2008- we want it to be interesting, help us enjoy the summer. If there is a FA out there that could help us be more competitive at the right price, by all means go for it.
Seriously though, the Tigers are beasts and if they falter, the Indians are not that far behind.
As a mid-market team (not a small-market) we need to re-tool from time to time.
We aren’t that far behind. Too bad we cant compete every year but that’s not the way it is. Do what we can to make it interesting for 2008-9 and let’s kick ass in 2010.
I think that Bill Smith’s ballsy approach will get us further than the extreme caution of TR.
I would rather go with the youngsters, Loften is pretty much wased up I think.
The money they are talking right now for Santana is ridiculous. The Mets will regret this in a couple years.
Dennis,
I can see the point of putting Gomez in the minors..based on being so close to the Super2 but I also see the benefit of him being with the big club and getting groomed on the TWINS Way.
As for Nathan — I think Rivera’s contract and what K-Rod gets are going to price him out of our market unless he is signed soon.
Personally, I’d like to see Gomez start the year in AAA Rochester and work on cutting down on his strikeouts. Also, I’m hoping that Pridie gets a legitimate shot at making the 25-man roster and gets a chance at the bigs.
kevlar,
The Twins had the option not to make the trade. Johan would’ve played for them this year. He didn’t demand out. He didn’t limit the teams he could go to. He didn’t throw any tantrum. All he said was, if you trade me, trade me before spring training.
If you think that makes him a bad guy, you need therapy.
BFE might be right. Let’s stand pat for now and use the extra money next year to get a stud….whether it be at 3B, SS, DH or #1 SP. There’s so many new parts that it’s hard to say what is really needed until ST starts. None of the leftover FAs look that great.
Dennis,
I can see the point of putting Gomez in the minors..based on being so close to the Super2 but I also see the benefit of him being with the big club and getting groomed on the TWINS Way.
I think the price of Rivera’s and K’Rods contract out price us
why in the world would you pay a closer 12 million dollars a year when the starters aren’t good enough to need a 30-40 save guy?
Seems kind of silly.
Trade Nathan, and if we try 5 different guys at closer in 2008 who cares?
With this genius trade with the Mets I predict the Twins win 71 games this year. You don’t pay a closer 12 million a team that would have to sell all their souls just to reach .500!
The Twins need to trade Nathan, and they better have charges brought up against them for the STEAL that they get in the Nathan deal
that was supposed to end with Nathan. Contract is going to be 4yr/48M which with Santana and Hunter gone is doable. But do you want to use that kind of money on a closer
Mat, I agree with you but I can see how some people would see it that way. The way some media portray it Santana basically told that Twins that if you don’t trade me by Tuesday I will stay here the rest of the year and leave via FA. I could see how that could be misconstrued.
No need to trade Nathan until trade deadline can get just as much then as you would right now.
I would have to agree with BC..the thought of paying Nathan this year 12M doesn’t work but it is only 6M this year. Extending out his contract after seeing what Liriano has in Spring might make sense.
Chad
Except the time for the team to bond together, which with all the new people might be best to get it done all at once instead Kevin McHale’s approach or changing a big portion of the roster every couple of months.
Geez, I wonder what Sabathia is thinking right now? So long Cleveland! If Santana ends up at 150, which seems likely given he’s asking 170, then I bet Sabathia figures he’ll be worth 135-140….unless of course he wins back to back CY’s…So the Yanks will still get their big left handed SP, just not Santana.
Hey, as for Nathan, I want to chime in that in my opinion, the Twins should make a good faith effort to sign him. If things are going reasonably well, unlikely, but if they are, then keep him,but if not, he’d be a great trade possibility for July. I just think his trade value skyrockets in mid summer compared to right now. Somebody would overpay at that point.
I dont think we will be as bad as you think. That is why I would wait on Nathan, if we are in it keep him and if we are out trade him.
I dont think we resign him I think closers are overrated in todays game.
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=7092
Top 100 Prospects
Redsox
2. Buchholz
16. Ellsbury
53. Masterson
57. Lowrie
60. Kalish
95. Bowden
Yankees
4. Chamberlain
34. Kennedy
47. Jackson
48. Tabata
67. Horne
Mets
51. Martinez
65. Carlos Gomez (5th ranked outfielder of 3 teams)
79. Deolis Guerra (6th ranked pitcher of 3 teams)
No Humber or Mulvey on the list!
I think i’m getting angry again!
6 million this year that can be put in the coffers.
With the money that this team has saved by not having to pay Hunter, Silva, and Santana (minus Morneau and Cuddyer’s raises) the Twins should be able to bring in 2 top notch free agents next year, and by trying out new people in the closer role this year we will have everything ready for 2009.
Hi Chad
I agree to a point. I think closers are overpaid, not necessarily overrated. Cant win the game if somebody doesnt get the last 3 outs. Too bad SP’s arent asked to actually WIN the game, rather than getting close to winning the game, then letting somebody else finish it. It’s like a painter sketching the outlines, but having someone else come in and fill in the colors.
Nathan is 33yrs old. 5+yrs older than our core players. Most pitchers start see a decline in performance(?) around 35-36….unless you start taking steroids, then your performance increases. Ask Roger.
Here’s a plan.
1.
Slip Santana word to not sign with Mets.
Pay his 170 mil for 7.
Buy out Becket’s, Webb’s, Verlander’s, Peavy’s, Hughes’ and Bucholz’s contracts for 200 mil each. Offer each the going rate for ace pitchers. About 170 mil for 7 or so.
2.
Buy out contracts for:
Phillies 2B (I forget his name)
Tulowitzki SS
Arod 3B
Matt Hiliday LF
Ishiro RF
Siezemore CF
Bonds DH
Hunter bench / late inning defense
Beltran Bench / DH on Bonds’ court dates
With shrewd negotiating probably avg about 150 mil a piece for buy outs. Pay each the going rates about 170 for 7
3.
Keep:
Nathan
Maurer
Mornaeu
Redman (future coach / manager)
May have to give these guys raises so we don’t affect team morale
4.
Convince Carl of the plan’s value
5.
Implement
For only approx 5.67 Billion (Carl might have to borrow a bit) we can:
6.
Sit back and enjoy at least 1 WS championship every other year for 7 years.
Paul…do you really think it’ll work? Sounds pretty cool!!!
Correction…
Mets
65. Carlos Gomez (6th ranked outfielder of 3 teams)
79. Deolis Guerra (6th ranked pitcher of 3 teams)
uggggghhhhhhhh
JT I agree!!!
There is much $$ left … The Twins say they used the money saved from Hunter and Silva to ink Morneau and Cuddy … That leaves them with $13.5 million they would have to pay Johan … You can’t weigh heavily into free agency with that …
mr. reality-
“….weigh heavily into free agency…” For who???
Guys,
Who will be available as FA next year? In terms of starting pitchers it is Sabathia and ???
The Twins need to take the money saved and invest in the Draft. Pay above slot for high ceiling talent. Then do the same for the international FA market.
By the time a player reaches free agency, they are bound to be over priced. Look at Silva…
In the long run it saves money. Look at the talent that Detroit has been able to acquire
The problem with Free Agency is that most of them are 32yrs-40yrs old. This is fine as a stop-gap move like Everett and Lamb but there is NO long-term with these folks.
unfortunately 13M probably gets you no better then a Silva type pitcher in next years market.
But lets look at the real money that was saved.
Hunter — to resign him was 15M
Santana - 20M
Silva — got 12M — he must have film on someone
total 47M
Cuddyer 8M
Morneau 12M
Not counting any other increase/decreases
I think Monroe is cheaper then RonDL White and I believe D. Young is cheaper then Ford/Tyner
Castillo - money is gone from last year as well.
Figure out what they spent on Lamb, Everett, Harris..vs. Bartlet and Garza probably close.
That should leave you roughly 25M..someone I am sure has all the salaries at their disposal
2009 MLB Free Agents
Catchers
Michael Barrett (32)
Johnny Estrada (33)
Kenji Johjima (33)
Jason Kendall (35) - club option for ‘09; vests with 110 games played in ‘08
Paul Lo Duca (37)
Ivan Rodriguez (37)
David Ross (32)
Jason Varitek (37)
Gregg Zaun (38) - $3.75MM vesting option for ‘09; vests with 160 games played in ‘08
First basemen
Ben Broussard (32)
Carlos Delgado (37) - $16MM mutual option for ‘09 with a $4MM buyout
Nomar Garciaparra (35)
Jason Giambi (38) - $22MM club option for ‘09 with a $5MM buyout
Scott Hatteberg (39)
Kevin Millar (37)
Richie Sexson (34)
Mark Teixeira (29)
Second basemen
Mark Ellis (32)
Mark Grudzielanek (39)
Orlando Hudson (31)
Tadahito Iguchi (34)
Jeff Kent (41)
Felipe Lopez (29)
Mark Loretta (37)
Shortstops
Orlando Cabrera (34)
David Eckstein (34)
Adam Everett (32)
Rafael Furcal (31)
Cristian Guzman (31)
Cesar Izturis (29)
Felipe Lopez (29)
Edgar Renteria (33) - $11MM club option for ‘09 with a $3MM buyout
Juan Uribe (30)
Omar Vizquel (42) - $5.2MM club option for ‘09 with a $0.3MM buyout
Third basemen
Casey Blake (35)
Hank Blalock (28) - $6.2MM club option for ‘09 with a $0.25MM buyout
Joe Crede (31)
Nomar Garciaparra (35)
Wes Helms (33) - $3.75MM club option for ‘09
Chipper Jones (37) - $8-11MM vesting option for ‘09
Left fielders
Moises Alou (42)
Garret Anderson (37) - $14MM club option for ‘09 with a $3MM buyout
Milton Bradley (31)
Pat Burrell (32)
Carl Crawford (27) - $8.25MM club option for ‘09 with $2.5MM buyout
Adam Dunn (29)
Cliff Floyd (36) - $3MM club option for ‘09 with a $0.25MM buyout
Raul Ibanez (37)
Jacque Jones (34)
Jason Michaels (33) - $2.6MM club option for ‘09
Craig Monroe (32)
Jay Payton (36)
Wily Mo Pena (27) - $5MM club option or $2MM player option for ‘09
Manny Ramirez (37) - $20MM club option for ‘09
Juan Rivera (30)
Center fielders
Rocco Baldelli (27) - $6MM club option for ‘09 with a $4MM buyout
Jim Edmonds (39)
Jacque Jones (34)
Mark Kotsay (33)
Right fielders
Bobby Abreu (35)
Casey Blake (35)
Milton Bradley (31)
Brian Giles (38) - $9MM club option for ‘09 with a $3MM buyout
Ken Griffey Jr. (39) - $16.5MM club option for ‘09 with a $4MM buyout
Vladimir Guerrero (33) - $15MM club option for ‘09 with a $3MM buyout
Jacque Jones (34)
DHs
Milton Bradley (31)
Pat Burrell (32)
Adam Dunn (29)
Jason Giambi (38) - $22MM club option for ‘09 with $5MM buyout
Vladimir Guerrero (33) - $15MM club option for ‘09 with a $3MM buyout
Raul Ibanez (37)
Manny Ramirez (37) - $20MM club option for ‘09
Juan Rivera (30)
Frank Thomas (41) - $10MM option for ‘09; vests with 376 PAs in ‘08
Jim Thome (38) - $13MM club option for ‘09 with $3MM buyout
Jose Vidro (34) - vesting option for ‘09
Starting pitchers
A.J. Burnett (32) - can opt out after ‘08 season
Paul Byrd (38)
Ryan Dempster (32)
Jon Garland (29)
Tom Glavine (43)
Orlando Hernandez (43)
Randy Johnson (45)
John Lackey (30) - $9MM club option for ‘09 with a $0.5MM buyout
Esteban Loaiza (37) - $7.5MM club option for ‘09 with a $0.375MM buyout
Braden Looper (34)
Derek Lowe (36)
Greg Maddux (43)
Pedro Martinez (37)
Matt Morris (34) - $9MM club option for ‘09 with a $1MM buyout
Jamie Moyer (46)
Mark Mulder (31) - $11MM club option for ‘09 with a $1.5MM buyout
Mike Mussina (40)
Brad Penny (31) - $8.75MM club option for ‘09 with a $2MM buyout
Oliver Perez (27)
Andy Pettitte (37)
Kenny Rogers (44)
C.C. Sabathia (28)
Johan Santana (30)
Curt Schilling (42)
Ben Sheets (30)
John Smoltz (42) - $12MM club option for ‘09
Tim Wakefield (42) - perpetual $4MM club option
Woody Williams (42) - $6.75MM club option for ‘09 with a $0.25MM buyout
Randy Wolf (32)
Closers
Joe Borowski (38)
Ryan Dempster (32)
Brian Fuentes (33)
Eric Gagne (33)
Trevor Hoffman (41)
Jason Isringhausen (36)
Todd Jones (41)
Brad Lidge (32)
Joe Nathan (34)
Al Reyes (38)
Francisco Rodriguez (27)
Middle relievers
Doug Brocail (42) - club option for ‘09
Juan Cruz (28)
Alan Embree (39) - $3MM club option for ‘09
Scott Eyre (37)
Kyle Farnsworth (33)
Aaron Fultz (35)
Tom Gordon (41) - $4.5MM club option for ‘09 with a $1MM buyout
LaTroy Hawkins (36)
Matt Herges (39) - club option for ‘09
Bob Howry (35)
Steve Kline (36)
Brandon Lyon (29)
Damaso Marte (34) - $6MM club option for ‘09 with a $0.25MM buyout
Guillermo Mota (35)
Will Ohman (31)
Darren Oliver (38)
Juan Rincon (30)
Russ Springer (40)
Mike Stanton (42) - $2.5MM club option for ‘09 with a $0.5MM buyout
Mike Timlin (43)
Salomon Torres (37) - $3.75MM club option for ‘09 with a $0.3MM buyout
David Weathers (39)
Dan Wheeler (31)
Kerry Wood (32)
rpb, I agree big time. Don’t let teams like Tigers, Mets, Yankees & Sox get an advantage over us by spending over budget slot on draft. Be willing to spend on big bonuses on the international free agent market. For example, Tony Oliva would still give us an “in” in Cuba once Fidel goes to that big Communist paradise in the sky. Add another minor league team like Atlanta has had for years. Draft & SIGN more draft picks. Spend the money on developing young players, NOT on 35 year old free agents on the downside of their non-juiced careers. SIGN OUR OWN PLAYERS such as Young & Neshek. Trade Nathan for our next stud 3rd baseman prospect. IMO the Twins will never sign a big money free agent. You are just kidding yourself if you think that will ever happen.
WOW…looking at that list of possible FAs’..BS better start looking to see if he can find some bats with the pitching prospects.
Going after Sabathia would be nice but I just don’t see it.
Sheets might be the best option but injury bug is a concern.
Dear Lord Jamie Moyer is ancient.
Though there are a few good free agents next season this looks like a pretty bad list.
If Kubel doesn’t pan out I could see the Twins trying to get Adam Dunn. He might be to expensive.
Let’s quit whining about Santana. He obviously didn’t want to be here anyway. It seems to me the pitching isn’t that far from last year with the exception of losing Santana. And if we could have hit a lick in the clutch last year, we may have made the play offs. BS has tried to fill some of the gaping holes in the lineup. If we can hit, the pitchers will keep us in the game and maybe we can win more of those 1 run games we lost last year. Bring on the Tigers and Indians. We can play with them if we hit. There were way too many holes in the line up last year, where we didn’t execute with runners in scoring position. In my humble opinion, it also seems to me that Johan became less of a team player last year after Castillo was dealt. He appeared to try to pad is individual stats in preperation for free agency, not to help benefit the Twins. That’s why his wins tanked and ERA went up. The pitching staff as it is is good enough to win if we hit. And we don’t need to win slug fests either. If we can avg 4-5 runs a game, which shouldn’t be that tough in the AL, and we don’t have Torii the rally killer coming up with ducks on the pond and less than 2 outs pulling an outside slider to short or just flat swinging and missing for the strike out, we can win with this staff without Mr $175 mil. Hunter should have had 150 RBI’s with all the chnaces he had at the plate with RISP. Same thing goes for the purhanas. We need an experienced big stick in the line up to protect Morneau and Young and Mauer. Cuddy didn’t get it done last year. I love his defense, but he ain’t a clean up hitter. Morneau was the ONLY hitter pitchers feared. And they pitched around him because of the holes in the lineup. We need a bopper and a speedster to set the table. I like the pitching staff and if Liriano is even 3/4’s of 06, we will be ok. Offense or lack of was the problem last year. Peace/Out!
Ammended plan
ref 7:30 post
Add Little Nick Punto
Gardy really “likes the heck” outa him.
That makes it about 5.672 Billion
Don’t worry the Mets are about to blow this by not signing Santana
There is no way the Mets allow Santana to leave NY without a contract. It will mark the biggest upset since the JETS beat the Colts in SuperBowl III if it happens.
6 years 150M and it will be done.
Metro2008
you really think the Mets should ante up 4 prospects and 7 years 170mil?
Early reports figured 6 years a little over $130mil…
so in all it was probably around 7 years $145mil including this year.
but dang, Johan and the mets have to be around $30-40mil apart right now..
Heyman says they are 20 million apart, im just getting a bad vibe.
I really don’t like the idea of Johan “I can invoke my NTC and put a gun to your head” Santana coming back to the Twins.
My gut still tells me there is no way Johan plays out the contract this year. Besides the injury aspect the fact that his second half sucked last year he can’t risk getting off to his typical slow start. Then he would be here for the year. He will take the deal to avoid the pain of coming back here.
Metro
yeah, he says 20mil..
but i am figuring that extra year as well.
johan wants 7 years and he wants to be paid more then his 13mil this year.
seriously though..
7 years for $170 is around 24.28mil per season..
soooo, not worth it! haha
honestly its a good thing bill smith accepted the mets offer, because the mets are the only team that i can see willing to pay that contract..
i think the sox and yanks would have backed away
He wasn’t worth the 5 years 100M that the Twins offered. If he comes back I sure hope the Twins don’t give out that contract.
Odds of Johan being a Twin for all of 2008 100-1
Odds of Johan starting the season as a Twin 75-1
Odds of Johan starting the season as a Met 2-1
Metro…it would be a lose/lose for the Mets and Twins for this thing to go belly up. Santana doesn’t want to come back to Minny and Minny doesn’t have the $$ to keep him here. It’s time to move on for everyone involved.
i guess my biggest point is this..
personally i think the Mets should Walk..
Keep the 4 prospects and then enter a bidding war of Johan and Sabathia this offseason..
as a twin fan i am just glad BS accepted the Mets offer
So what is worse getting the 4 prospects that no one seemed to like yesterday or being told by the Stud player you acquire break your bank account to get me. I personally like the Twins position.
I think all the power in this deal is still with the Mets. They are no worse off if they tell Santana to go take a F. Keep the prospects and then like “MH states they could go after Sabathia at the end of the year.”
Or for that matter try and trade for him now
BFE….try telling that to the Mets fans.
if 22-23 million per for 6 years (plus 8-9 to sign added on to his 2008) is not enough I dunno what to say
Metro
agreed..
its just absurd.. and wow.. i hope it goes through because i do not want the twins to get johan back at this point… i want the kids and i want to move on..
But as a Baseball Fan.. I do not want the Mets handing out a 7 year $170mil contract..
next year sabathia gets 8 for $200mil
i mean.. this has to level off at sometime..
Twins will be paying Slowey $45mil a year..
Slowey pitches, mauer catches.. and if we are lucky gomez will be in center..
thats all we will be able to afford!
To be fair, blame the Giants… Zito 7 year 18 per is ridiculous, but if Zito gets that then Santana realistically should get 22-23, but at some point you say enough is enough.
Hawk,
I haven’t been out on a Mets board but I am guessing some of their fans are starting to go WTF is this. You get the guy you want for basically nothing and then he holds you hostage for too much money.
Ok Mets fans any of you out there that want this deal dead?
How about Twins Fans? Personally I want the deal to go through and move on as well. Even though the salaries are moving out of control again I think we are setup better then with Johan at 20M
Metro — you are correct that it was the Giants with Zito(I hate to say I don’t know is he a Boras client) but what about the Yanks and that deal they gave Clemons last year. That didn’t really help matters any either.
How much money does one player need? This seems beyond greedy, $20 million for 5 years was a fantastic offer if you ask me. I thought Johan wanted to play for the Mets, he doesn’t see to be making it easy for them to sign him does he.
Now we know why the GM didn’t accept the Red Sox offer.The Red Sox wouldn’t have paid Santana 170 million or give him 7 years. Its insane to give somebody all this money for pitching every 5 days. I’m sure the Mets would give him the money because they are desperate.
I will not be too suprised if the Mets are calling Oakland right now and checking on Blanton and Baltimore to see about Bedard. 7 years for a pitcher is just too long. No matter how good he has been for 3 years. It isn’t like he is 25 and not 29.
I stand by my proposal post of 7:30
with LNP added
As the Free Agent market goes up, the value of homegrown players gets even larger. Our young starters are “worth” just as much if not more than Silva, they just don’t cost as much.
LEN-Is there any way you can place all the blogs after the trade was announced in the archives until ST of 2010.Replay them and see who was right.There could be alot people eating crow
You guys got screwed that Silva wasn’t even ranked a B free agent.
wat??
Keith law’s top 100 prospects, here are the top 25. for the rest go to espn .com
RANK
PLAYER
POS.
ORGANIZATION
#AGE
1
Evan Longoria
3B
Tampa Bay Rays
TOP ‘07 LEVEL: AAA (Durham)
22
Evan Longoria is good at baseball.
He has very quick wrists and takes short paths to the ball no matter where it’s pitched, resulting in lots of hard contact and a whole-field approach. He has plus power already and could grow into more, which would make him a consistent 30-plus home run hitter. He’s a tough out who works the count and will foul pitches off to get to something he can drive, but will take his walks and should post on-base percentages in the low .400s.
On defense, he has had no trouble moving from his college position of shortstop and should be among the league’s best defenders at third in 2008. He has good range in both directions, soft and sure hands, and a strong and accurate arm. He reads the ball well off the bat and adjusted quickly to the faster reaction times required at the hot corner.
If the player I’ve just described sounds more than a little like David Wright, you’ve got the idea. Longoria is three years younger than Wright today, and while he’ll debut a year later than Wright did, he has a similar skill set and upside to the Mets’ third baseman, who would have been my choice for National League MVP in 2007. Longoria is the favorite to start at third base on Opening Day for Tampa Bay, making him the favorite to win the AL’s Rookie of the Year award in 2008.
2
Jay Bruce
RF
Cincinnati Reds
TOP ‘07 LEVEL: AAA (Louisville)
20
Bruce is probably the top power-hitting prospect in the minors right now, unsurprising for a kid who was already well-developed physically at the time he was drafted. Bruce sets up very deep but generates excellent bat speed and is strong enough to drive balls out to all fields. He’s played center field but is best suited for right, and has a plus arm to play there. Because of the deep load at the plate, he can overcommit on breaking stuff and can be beaten with hard stuff inside, and he’s shown only moderate plate discipline in the minors. There’s no reason he couldn’t step in right now and win the Rookie of the Year Award in the NL if he’s given an everyday job.
3
Joba Chamberlain
RHP
New York Yankees
TOP ‘07 LEVEL: Majors
22
You may have heard of this fellow. Best known to big league fans as a dominant setup guy, Chamberlain is best cast as a four-pitch starter who projects as a true No. 1 starter. He has a four-pitch repertoire where all pitches project as average or better: a plus 94-98 mph four-seamer, a toxic 83-87 mph slider with good tilt and variable break, an 11/5 curveball with good depth, and a straight 81-84 mph changeup with good arm speed. The fastball and slider are already big league out pitches and in relief, he can probably get away without the other two pitches. Chamberlain has a great pitcher’s build with broad shoulders and the height to get good downhill plane on his pitches, and his arm is quick. He’s battled his weight in the past, leading to knee trouble, and he had bicep tendinitis in college that allowed him to fall to the Yankees in the supplemental round.
4
Clay Buchholz
RHP
Boston Red Sox
TOP ‘07 LEVEL: Majors
23
Buchholz didn’t quite get the cult following of Joba, but made a name for himself by throwing a no-hitter in his second big league start. Buchholz is an unusual pitching prospect in that he already brings two plus secondary pitches to the table, including one of the best right-handed changeups in the game today, with good tumble and fading action, and he sells it well with perfect arm speed. If his changeup is a solid 70 on the 20-80 scale, his curve projects as no worse than a 60, with a sharp, accelerating downward break. His fastball is just average at 89-94, but he commands it well and gets good downhill plane from a high release point. He is a superb athlete who (so the story goes) outran Jacoby Ellsbury in the 60-yard dash when they were teammates at Lowell. And because he’s quick to the plate, he should do well in controlling the running game.
5
Colby Rasmus
CF
St. Louis Cardinals
TOP ‘07 LEVEL: AA (Springfield)
21
Rasmus has been very quiet in his march toward the big leagues and up prospect lists. Rasmus comes from a baseball-mad family — judging by the number of Rasmuses I’ve seen at some high school showcases, I believe he has about a bazillion brothers — and has an outstanding feel for the game. His tools all project to plus; he has very quick hands and gets his bat started early, so his plate coverage (even inside) is excellent, and he should grow into plus power, especially to pull. He’s a plus runner who gets from zero to full speed quickly, so he should be an asset on the bases capable of stealing 20-plus bags a year. His arm is plus and would be playable in right, but he’s adapting well to center field and only struggles now with balls hit over his head, something that should improve in time. Cardinal fans may have been disappointed to see Jim Edmonds go, but they’ll love his replacement.
6
Clayton Kershaw
LHP
Los Angeles Dodgers
TOP ‘07 LEVEL: AA (Jacksonville)
20
Kershaw has about as good an arm as you’re likely to see on a young left-hander. His arm works extremely well, with little effort and quick movement through his delivery. His stuff is outstanding, a plus-plus fastball at 93-96 with good downhill plane and a two-plane hammer curve in the mid-70s that must cause left-handed hitters to strain their obliques as they try to hold up. He has a changeup with good fading action, but doesn’t sell it well enough and right-handers can sit on it a little bit, although he can improve that with experience. The Dodgers promoted fellow pitching prospect Scott Elbert aggressively and worked him hard in 2006, and he responded with a shoulder injury that required surgery in May. They worked Kershaw less hard — he faced 93 fewer hitters than Elbert did — but still pushed him to AA before he was ready, and 19-20-year-old pitchers do get hurt. That’s the only thing likely to stop him from becoming a top-of-the-rotation starter.
7
Travis Snider
RF
Toronto Blue Jays
TOP ‘07 LEVEL: A (Lansing)
20
The word on Snider out of high school from his detractors was that he was stiff, slow, a little heavy, had bad knees and so on. The word on him now is that he can flat-out hit, and his detractors have shut their mouths for the time being. Snider sets himself up well to hit for average and power, with a low load, a simple swing and a very short path to the ball. He’s got some loft to his swing to drive balls out, with plus power already, but will shorten up to go the other way on offspeed stuff. He’s a solid-average runner and has at least a 60 arm in right field. He has a good idea at the plate, and his contact rate should improve as he develops. This was a steal of a pick at No. 14 in ‘06; among hitters, only Longoria (No. 3 selection) looks better right now.
8
Franklin Morales
LHP
Colorado Rockies
TOP ‘07 LEVEL: Majors
22
The Rockies have done well in Latin America over the past five or six years, remedying the franchise’s decision to skimp on that area in the first decade of its existence. Morales is the best product so far, a potential No. 1 starter with two plus pitches and a delivery that shows the ball to hitters late. His fastball is plus at 93-95, and he’ll run it in hard on hitters on both sides of the plate. His curve has a big two-plane break with very good depth, making him deadly against left-handed hitters. He has some areas on which he needs to work; his command and control are both below average, and the way he rushes his arm through his delivery (providing some of the deception) may limit how good his command can become. His changeup is just a show-me pitch at the moment as well.
9
Homer Bailey
RHP
Cincinnati Reds
TOP ‘07 LEVEL: Majors
21
Bailey didn’t take the same step forward in 2007 as some of the other top pitching prospects in the game, but it’s too early to jump off the bandwagon. What Buchholz and Chamberlain did is the exception, not the rule, when it comes to pitchers without much pro experience; look at Chad Billingsley’s first go-round in the majors and the improvement he showed in his second year in 2007. Bailey was in the big leagues a bit too soon, then suffered a groin injury that prevented his return until September. His stuff remains outstanding: a 93-97 mph fastball and a power curveball with a sharp downward break. His changeup remains a show-me pitch, but the real obstacle for him is fastball command, and there are no mechanical reasons why his command won’t eventually be above-average, at which point he’ll give the Reds the true No. 1 starter they’ve been looking for.
10
Fernando Martinez
OF
New York Mets
TOP ‘07 LEVEL: AA (Binghamton)
19
It’s been fashionable this offseason for some writers to bash the Mets’ top prospects, mostly vis-à-vis the Johan Santana trade talks, but this criticism has been way overblown. Martinez’s 2007 performance doesn’t impress on a quick look, but consider these facts: He played the entire season at age 18 in AA; and he was hitting .309/.372/.409 as late as May 25 before the effects of a contusion on his left hand ruined what remained of his season. He was shut down on June 23 and missed the rest of the year. Martinez shows huge raw power in BP that will make its way into his game performances, and he has a solid approach with good pitch recognition for someone so young. He has good range in center and a plus arm if he outgrows center field and has to move to right. To put his development in more perspective, if he’d played a full year at AA and hit .290/.360/.410 or so, he would have been on pace to debut in the big leagues at 19 or 20 and be a big league regular before he turned 21. He’s going to be a star, but everyone has to bear in mind how young he is to keep his performance in perspective.
11
Desmond Jennings
OF
Tampa Bay Rays
TOP ‘07 LEVEL: A (Columbus)
21
Cleveland actually had Jennings under control after taking him in the 2005 draft, but made little effort to sign him, so he went back into the pool in 2006. The Rays took him in the 10th round and signed him for just $150,000, less than any other U.S.-born player in the top 40 prospects here. Jennings is a burner with 70 speed on the 20-80 scale, and he has quick wrists and a short stroke that let him generate line drives to all fields. His defense in center is still a work in progress, as he uses his raw speed to make up for late jumps on balls away from his starting position. The biggest question on Jennings’ upside is his power, but as he matures and gains strength, his swing should be enough for 20-plus homers a year, with more if he can learn to extend his arms on pitches out over the plate.
12
Andrew McCutchen
CF
Pittsburgh Pirates
TOP ‘07 LEVEL: AAA (Indianapolis)
21
McCutchen started off horribly in AA this year, but finally turned his season around in his last 40-odd games there, hitting .307/.382/.460 from July 1 until a mid-August promotion to AAA. McCutchen has incredibly quick wrists that give him tremendous plate coverage and result in a lot of hard, line-drive contact, as well as flashes of raw power. The player-development fiasco in the Pirates’ minor league system under Dave Littlefield has hurt McCutchen, however, as he doesn’t use his lower half and get his weight transferred with his swing, so all his power now is in his wrists and forearms; once he gets his whole body involved, he should have 30-plus homer power. He’s a 65-70 runner with good baserunning instincts, and he plays a plus center field. Take heart, Pirate fans: Nyjer Morgan’s goofy routes have only a year or so left in Pittsburgh’s center field.
13
Cameron Maybin
OF
Florida Marlins
TOP ‘07 LEVEL: Majors
20
The big league callup was a mistake, obviously, but as long as there’s no long-term harm done from the time he spent in Detroit, he still has the same huge upside that had him at No. 15 last year. Maybin already shows plus power in games, and the ball really flies off his bat. But his swing is long and gets out of control, and he glides through it at times, leaving him swinging off his front foot and generating less than maximum power. He crushes fastballs, but needs to improve his recognition of and adjustment to offspeed stuff. Even if his contact issues don’t go away, he’s a plus glove in center with a strong arm and 30-plus homer potential, which would make him an above-average regular with star potential if he can stay back at the plate and do a better job of recognizing offspeed pitches.
14
Matt Wieters
C
Baltimore Orioles
TOP ‘07 LEVEL: College (Ga. Tech)
21
The best prospect in the 2007 draft fell to the fifth team picking due to his bonus demands, giving the Orioles the best prospect they’ve had since Erik Bedard came out of the system in 2003. Wieters is a tall, wiry-strong, switch-hitting catcher who sprays the field with line drives and shows plus power from the left side. He has a plus arm behind the plate and was 92-94 off the mound as a reliever at Georgia Tech, but needs to refine his receiving skills. The biggest long-term concern with Wieters is his size: He’s 6-foot-5, which means there’s a lot of pressure on his knees when he squats. The history of catchers his height is filled with players who moved off the position or who suffered leg and knee injuries, including the best all-around catcher in the majors today, Joe Mauer. If Wieters can buck history and stay behind the plate, he’ll be rivaling Mauer for that title in just a few years.
15
Wade Davis
RHP
Tampa Bay Rays
TOP ‘07 LEVEL: AA (Montgomery)
22
The Rays have an embarrassment of pitching riches, with Davis at the head of the class. He projects as a potential No. 1 starter with some improvement in his command and his worst secondary pitch, his changeup. Davis already has three plus pitches in his repertoire: a 92-95 mph fastball with late life up in the zone, a hard-breaking 12-to-6 curveball near 80 mph, and a sharp two-plane slider at 84-87 mph. He shows some feel for the change, but it’s inconsistent, and he uses his slider as his main out pitch against lefties. There are some minor mechanical issues for Davis to work on, including maintaining a consistent release point and staying on top of the ball, but nothing major that points to injury or command woes. Davis has a large frame without much projection, but who needs to project on stuff like this?
16
David Price
LHP
Tampa Bay Rays
TOP ‘07 LEVEL: College (Vanderbilt)
22
As I said above, the Rays are stacked with top-flight arms in their system. Price, the No. 1 overall pick in 2007 and my No. 2 prospect heading into the draft, is coming off a dominant spring season for Vanderbilt where he struck out over 36 percent of the batters he faced. He has top-of-the-rotation stuff, including a plus fastball, best at 89-93 mph but flashing 94-95 with reduced command; a late-breaking upper 70s slider with a short break and good tilt; and an 81-85 mph changeup that comes in late down and in to righties. He pitches to both sides of the plate, really trusts all three of his pitches and works in the lower half of the zone. His delivery isn’t clean, with some effort to get his arm around his body and a little bit of a head-jerk, but nothing likely to hold down his performances. He could debut as early as this summer and should be big league-ready no later than mid-2009.
17
Josh Vitters
3B
Chicago Cubs
TOP ‘07 LEVEL: A (Boise)
18
Vitters was the top prep hitter in the 2007 draft and could easily have gone first or second overall. He’s an offensive third baseman with a simple, direct swing and plus-plus bat speed, making lots of contact and hitting everything hard to all fields. He already shows good raw power to pull and will drive balls out the other way as he adds experience and muscle. At third base, he’s rough, but has enough athletic ability to be at least average at the position, and he has plenty of arm strength for the position. He’s a star and he should move quickly for a high school product.
18
Carlos Triunfel
SS
Seattle Mariners
TOP ‘07 LEVEL: A (High Desert)
18
Triunfel was born in February of 1990, yet finished the year hitting for average (.288/.333/.356) in high-A, usually the starting point for 21- and 22-year-old college products in their first full seasons. A minor league hitter who makes a lot of contact and hits for average against pitchers three or four years his senior is marked for stardom, and Triunfel’s physical tools bear that out. He has a very quick bat, mostly in his wrists, and a strong build with a thicker lower half than you typically see in teenaged infielders. He also has a laser of an arm. There’s some question over whether he’ll stay at short, but he’s built a bit like Miguel Tejada, who’s spent over 10 years at the position in the majors and was a plus glove at his peak. There’s a risk the Mariners will rush Triunfel — they rush everyone else, so why not? — but if they let his bat determine his development pace, they have a potential star on their hands.
19
Jacoby Ellsbury
CF
Boston Red Sox
TOP ‘07 LEVEL: Majors
24
It’ll be hard for Ellsbury to top his 2007 big league performance, capped off with a world championship and plenty of pink “ELLSBURY” T-shirts spotted around town, and there’s a logjam in the Boston outfield right now that will hold his playing time down, barring a trade. Ellsbury’s calling card is his defense, with Gold Glove potential — as in deserving one, since the winners of that award aren’t always the most deserving candidates — and the raw speed to help him play the difficult center field in Fenway. That speed, coupled with good baserunning instincts, makes him a threat to steal 40-plus bags per year at a high success rate, which is a must in the Red Sox’s stat-savvy system. At the plate, Ellsbury has a quick, slashing stroke, generating line drives and using the whole field, limiting his potential home run peak to 10-15. He also has excellent plate discipline, making him an ideal leadoff hitter regardless of your school of thought on what a good leadoff hitter should be. There’s no wonder he’s coveted by other teams when the Sox come calling for established stars.
20
Angel Villalona
3B
San Francisco Giants
TOP ‘07 LEVEL: A (Salem-Keizer)
17
The Giants of the early 2000s were notorious for skimping on amateur signing bonuses, giving away first-round picks and doing little in Latin America. So when they paid over $2 million to sign Villalona just days after his 16th birthday in August of 2006, not only was it a surprise, it was a signal that the organization was committing to acquiring top-flight amateur talent. Signing Villalona was tantamount to getting an extra top-10 pick in the amateur draft — perhaps better, since he could be in the organization for what would have been his senior year had he been an American-born prospect. Villalona himself is very physically developed, with an early-20s build even before he turned 16; while this will probably force him over to first base, it does provide for significant power potential. He has a quick bat and a fluid swing, and has shown the ability to use the whole field. He’s a long way off and has only played five games above rookie ball, but the physical promise here — a middle-of-the-order bat with a 40-plus homer ceiling — is tremendous.
21
Jose Tabata
RF
New York Yankees
TOP ‘07 LEVEL: A (Tampa)
19
Tabata was in the top 10 last year, but a nagging hamate injury ended his 2007 season early, requiring surgery in August. Tabata has a quick bat and great hand-eye coordination, and he squares up balls as well as anyone on this list. He also has good pitch recognition, although that can manifest itself in working the count to get to a fastball he can drive. His raw power hasn’t shown up in games, which could be explained by the hamate injury; hand and wrist injuries sap power, and full recovery from a broken hamate bone can take up to a year. Tabata can play center but has been bumped to right field by fellow Yankee prospect Austin Jackson (No. 24), and Tabata should be plus there with an above-average arm. He’d rank higher if the hamate problem was fully behind him, but until that becomes clear, there’s still some risk here.
22
Rick Porcello
RHP
Detroit Tigers
TOP ‘07 LEVEL: H.S. (New Jersey)
19
The top prep pitcher in the 2007 draft, Porcello has outstanding stuff and just looks the part of a big league ace. Porcello is already sitting at 92-94 mph and will touch 97 a few times an outing with two curveballs, both 12-to-6, one a late-breaker near 80 mph and the other a slower version in the upper 60s. His changeup shows promise; he turns the pitch over well, but slows his arm enough for hitters to notice. He has a very quick arm and a projectable frame, so it wouldn’t be a surprise to see him sitting at 95-plus mph in a few years, working his way toward the top of the Tigers’ rotation.
23
Nick Adenhart
RHP
Los Angeles Angels
TOP ‘07 LEVEL: AA (Arkansas)
21
Adenhart was a first-round talent until he blew out his elbow during his senior spring in high school, but got first-round money from the Angels and has become their best prospect and a potential No. 2 starter. Adenhart’s best attributes are his command and his feel for pitching, both of which are already plus, but that doesn’t mean his stuff isn’t strong. His fastball is solid-average at 90-93 mph, flashing better than that, and his curve already grades out as plus, with an almost 12-to-6 break that has just a little tilt to it. His changeup projects as above-average as well, with a late downward action and good arm speed. He can drop his arm slot slightly at times, causing his stuff to flatten out, and he lands just a little hard with his front foot. The Angels have moved him aggressively, so his indicators haven’t matched his stuff, but he’s just two years or so off from contributing to a big league rotation.
24
Austin Jackson
CF
New York Yankees
TOP ‘07 LEVEL: A (Tampa)
21
Jackson is my favorite kind of hitting prospect — the athlete with a clue. Jackson was a top basketball prospect in high school, but the Yankees flexed their financial muscles and gave him first-round money in the eighth round, a move that looks brilliant in hindsight because of how advanced Jackson is for a multi-sport prospect. Jackson has good speed, a solid-average arm in center and good instincts on fly balls, but still has some work to do at the plate. His setup is excellent and his path to the ball is short, but he needs to continue working on keeping his weight back to get more power from the contact he makes, and he’s too eager to chase the ball up. He’s a potential middle-of-the-order bat because of his power and improving plate discipline.
25
Andy LaRoche
3B
Los Angeles Dodgers
TOP ‘07 LEVEL: Majors
24
Big league teams can do funny things. The Dodgers liked LaRoche enough to give him a seven-figure bonus after taking him as a summer follow in the 39th round in 2003. They moved him up aggressively, gave him a shot at the big league job and decided a month later that he couldn’t hit, instead accepting mediocre production from known quantities until they started to fall out of the playoff race in September. Now, after several abortive attempts to acquire a third baseman, the Dodgers are going to give LaRoche a chance to “win” the job over Nomar Garciaparra (who can’t field a lick at third and isn’t much with the bat) in spring training. Here’s the scoop: LaRoche can, in fact, hit, and he’ll hit for average with excellent on-base percentages, with middle-of-the-road power. He can play third, but doesn’t project as a plus glove. He should be handed the everyday job right now.
1-25 | 26-50 | 51-75 | 76-100
espn Poll:
1) What does your favorite MLB team rely on most?
58.5% Building with prospects through its farm system and trades
41.5% Building with veterans through free agency and trades
2) How closely do you follow your favorite MLB team’s farm system?
60.2% I regularly check how top prospects are doing.
37.0% I know some of the names but I don’t follow their progress.
2.9% I’ll learn the names when they get to the majors.
3) If you were a Twins fan, what would you have wanted the team to do with Johan Santana?
82.7% Trade him for multiple prospects.
13.4% Keep him for one more season, knowing he’ll leave, and make a run at postseason.
4.0% Trade him for multiple lesser established players.
4) Which team is tougher to support as a fan?
55.7% Occasionally competes for titles, rarely keeps its stars, regularly bottoms out
44.3% Keeps most of its best players, usually .500 or better, never has depth to get a title
5) Which type of prospect generally has the most potential to emerge as a star?
32.9% College pitcher
29.8% College hitter
21.2% High school hitter
16.1% High school pitcher
6) Which of Keith Law’s top 10 prospects will end up as the best player?
27.1% Joba Chamberlain, P, Yankees
19.2% Evan Longoria, 3B, Devil Rays
15.2% Jay Bruce, OF, Reds
14.4% Clay Buchholz, P, Red Sox
7.6% Clayton Kershaw, P, Dodgers
6.2% Fernando Martinez, OF, Mets
3.8% Colby Rasmus, OF, Cardinals
2.8% Homer Bailey, P, Reds
1.9% Franklin Morales, P, Rockies
1.8% Travis Snider, OF, Blue Jays
7) Who was the top pick in last year’s draft?
67.2% David Price
13.2% Josh Vitters
9.6% Mike Moustakas
7.5% Matt Wieters
2.4% Daniel Moskos
Which level of baseball is closer to where you live?
64.3% Major league
35.7% Minor league
9) How many major-league games did you attend last season?
41.7% 1-4
21.9% 5-9
18.4% 10 or more
18.1% None
10) How many minor-league games did you attend last season?
64.3% None
27.1% 1-4
4.6% 5-9
4.0% 10 or more
As a Mets fan, I have to say that the Mets have no choice here — they have to sign Santana or there will be mass protests, if not riots. Fans will go absolutely crazy if the Mets went this far and ended up not signing him. I don’t even want to think about it.
They have to do it, no matter the cost and everyone knows it. Johan and Greenberg have ALLLLLL the power right now, unfortunately.
Granted, I think the money is excessive, but the Wilpons can certainly afford it.
JT,
Sadly, the idea that what BS got from the Mets wasn’t as good as the other packages isn’t news. I told you guys during the Winter Meetings the Red Sox were offering a good package and got instead (roughly, I didn’t actually look these quotes up)….
“Crisp is just an overpriced salary dump.”
“Ellsbury got brought up to play against bad teams so he could look good to get unloaded.”
“Lester tops out at a #3 starter. Not interested.”
“No way the Twins do this deal. They’re trading THE BEST PLAYER IN THE GAME. They need to get better players back.”
And with the Mets, people were saying, “No Reyes, NO DEAL!!!”
“Stick it to ‘em, Bill!!! LOL”
Sometimes, the day of reckoning is a bitch.
If I wanted to read ESPN articles, I would just browse over there.
Mat - I think its a sign of mental illness if you still think that Santana’s not a greedy, bad guy. 7 years - 170 million, come on!
We don’t need him! He was scared in the playoffs whenever we faced the Yankees or Athletics. God forbid we ever get out of the first round.
Well it’s too late to turn back now for the Mets…they have to sign him or they will feel the wrath from their fans for a long, long, long time…
While I can agree the money is excessive, there isn’t much debate that he is the best pitcher in the game right now and, at 28 going on 29, likely still has many productive years ahead.
In comparison with Zito and Zambrano, the contract will be pretty close to market value. In fact, he’ll probably get more because he has the Mets over a barrel…
Beantown - Jeez, I thought we were done with you after the Santana trade was completed… 
Mat - I think you said something earlier about Santana not being a bad guy for what he’s doing, that he should just go for as much money as he can get.
I’ve been thinking about that, and I do see reasons to criticize him. Your stance requires a philosophy that values money as the sole determinant of happiness, success and values. I don’t buy that. I personally have had several opportunities to go to other companies for more money (via recruiters calling me). I never even listen because I feel loyalty to my company (which the company reciprocates), I enjoy my job, the city, my manager, my co-workers, etc. Money is just one of many factors in my life, and a fairly small factor at that.
The situation gets even more absurd when you’re comparing $100M to $160-170M. Give me $2M and I could retire and live a wonderful life. If $100M is not enough, and you have to hold out for $160-170M there is something horribly amiss in your value system. The difference between $100M and $170M is grotesque excess, and can’t make a person’s life any better. But that excess outweighs loyalty (to the team that made him, to his many fans, to his teammates, etc.) and all other factors.
So to address the last part of your observations, that anyone who thinks Santana is a bad guy, it seems more accurate to say that Santana needs therapy to place money in a proper context in his life.
Oops. I meant to say at the end that if you say that anyone who thinks Santana is a bad guy needs therapy, I say instead that Santana needs therapy to place money in a proper context in his life.
I think it’s time to go to bed….
Dennis, while I agree with you on a personal level (hell, I’d take $500,000 and retire), there is also market value to considar. Thanks to Mr. Zito last year (or 2 years ago, I don’t remember), guys like Santana say things like: hey, that guy got $126 million dollar deal and I’m WAY better than he is, so I deserve more. It’s a catch 22. You can blame the player for wanting SO much money, but by the same tolken, you can turn around and blame the BILLIONAIRE owner for not just paying him want he wants and (compared to market value) deserves. It’s a sad state when Millionaires and Billionaires argue over thousands of dollars all the time. Asking the Mets for an extra $70 Million dollars is like asking me for $70. Do I want to pay you that? No. Will I survive? Yes. It’s too bad, but that’s really just the way things are.
LaVelle…..here’s the big question…
If the Mets fail to sign Santana to an extension, but, he agrees to waive his NTC, are the Mets obligated to complete the trade? Can the Mets still back out?
ALL OF YOU BILL SMITH, Pohlad and Twins FO bashers and SECOND-GUESSERS CAN NOW BACK OFF.
It is obvious that even if we had gotten the Chamberlain/Hughes/Cano/Kennedy package or the Buchholtz/Ellsbury/Lester/Papelbon packages you asked for, neither the Yanks nor Sox would have given in to Santana’s contract demands. Neither team is desperate enough.
The Twins would be right back where they are now - Praying to Heaven that the Mets can sign him, so we can at least get Gomez/Guerra, etc. instead of two crappy draft picks.
Santana’s deadline was NOT A FACTOR.
The Twins had no way to complete a better trade, regardless of who or when. Santana’s contract demands created this situation. PLEASE SIGN HIM METS PLEASE,PLEASE,PLEASE,PLEASE, AMEN.
The agreement was Johan would only wave once a contract was finalized. So I doubt Johan would do it.
And as far as Gomez being an Boras-guy, the difference between he and Ellsbury is that Gomez hasn’t already been hyped up the wazoo by the national sports media.
Ellsbury didn’t want to be traded, combine that with Boras and you’ve got the makings of a very short Twins career.
Gomez on the other hand was in the Mets system and likely going to stay there for a few years. I would guess he’s excited about coming to the Twins because it means he’s going to be in line for a starting role in ‘09 if not ‘08.
It’s a matter of perspective, and though the agent may say one thing, you’d like to think it comes down to the player in the end.
The union has a little bit to say about what salary ceilings players ask for as well. They constantly push for a bigger piece of the pie, and have done so for 100 years now.
Greedy owners + ‘woe is me’ players = disassociation from reality.
Very true Reezee. Everybody always points fingers at the greedy owners for not freely spending their money.
Yet nobody thinks to look at the players demanding these contracts and go: “You want how much?”
Case in point: Meche, Zito, Hunter, Silva, Rodriquez (Alex)
“Santana’s deadline was NOT A FACTOR.”??
I’d say it factored in on that he was agreed to be traded Tuesday! LOL
And on the whole market value thing……It’s just that, what can you get on the current market…In this case it’s baseball and teams are paying big $$ for players. Santana will get his 150mil out of the Mets. Anyone that thought that this was not going to go the distance was not thinking clearly
The problem is that we’re not seeing “market value” contracts anymore.
Is it considered “market value” when only one or two teams can afford to spend that kind of money?
Is it a fair/free market when a player can essentially price himself out of 95% of the team’s reach?
That’s the problem with throwing around the phrase “market value”. If it truly was a player’s market value, it wouldn’t be the player setting it.
29 other teams looked at Alex Rodriquez and said “No. We are not giving you $30 million a year.” Just because the Yankees gave it to him, that makes it his market value?
That’s the problem with free agency these days. It’s not the teams collectively deteremining a player’s worth anymore. If every other team in the league refuses to sign a player to a specific value, he still is considered to be setting the “market value” for the position if one team decides they want to be special and throw it at his feet.
Case in point: Torii Hunter.
The Twins offered him 3/45. That’s 15 million a year. Hunter responded that he was more concerned about a length of contract.
Three teams (Royals, White Sox, Rangers) all came back with offers. All offered the same general package. 5/75. That’s 15 mil, but with two extra years.
So what does that tell you? Four teams consider Hunter to be worth 15 million a year. Since we didn’t hear about any other offers, we can safely assume this was the general consensus.
However, one team decided they wanted to be different…and offered him 5/90 with an option for a 6th. Hunter took it.
Does that suddenly mean the other 4 teams were wrong? Out of the 5 offers, 4 were the same annual salary.
So then, what is Hunter’s actual market value? If you ask me, it isn’t the 5/90 he got…it’s the 5/75 he turned down. The LAA offer was an outlier, but it will forever be looked at as the precident.
That’s why “market value” doesn’t work anymore. It doesn’t exist. You can offer market value, but that’s not what players want.
Callmestupid,
The point is:
NO MATTER WHEN, or to whom Santana had been traded, he would have rejected the contract offers from the Yanks/Sox and it would have STILL ended up being a Mets-only negotiation with no leverege for the Twins.
Sid…you might be right. The Bosox and/or Yanks might not have relented on Santana’s contract demands and killed the deal. Maybe us Twins fans were thinking it would not be that hard for an East Coast team to sign him. Interesting. It’ll be even more interesting if the Mets do NOT sign him…than shock waves would be felt by everyone and for a long time.
Market value is what you get in your contract, not what was offered.
Also, how can anyone say what would have happened in regard to Santana going to the Yankees or the Red Sox? If he liked the idea of going to one of those teams more than he likes the idea of going to the Mets then a deal could have been made.
Any comments that are out there mean nothing. Its designed to fire up fans.
Sorry….need grammar check on these blogs….”than”= “the”. Pass the dunce cap.
Twin’s interested in Josh Fogg. Great another crappy veteran starter. If you are rebuilding which the Twins are why not let the young pitchers get a chance were not going to win anything anyway.
Mourning….Yes it’s all hypothetical but 90% of this blog is. It’s what makes it interesting.
Chad…I agree with you. Try telling BC your thoughts about Fogg.
Hawk,
If we get one year of Santana, at least the 100-pitch limit will be discarded.
With a 125-pitch limit, he will finish the 8th and 9th innings - and maybe get 15 complete games and 25 wins.
Mourning.
“Firing up the fans” is not on my agenda. I am not in the mind control business and all of the minds on these blog are free to think for themselves which they certainly do.
From LaVelle’s article today:
“If a deal can’t be reached, Santana would have to waive his no-trade clause or the deal would be voided by the league”
What does that mean? Does the league automatically void the deal? Or can Santana agree to continue dealing with the mets in exchange for waiving his NTC?
Sid….if Santana comes back to Minny, he probably won’t make it past 5 innings anyway. From the time his friend (Castillo) went to the Mets, he didn’t have the same fire as before. I think they call that “dead heading” into the next season, i.e. you’re not pulling your weight or doing anything profitable.
I know Hawk, and generally agree.
It will be interesting to see what happens by the end of today’s window though.
Will Santana agree to the Mets offering, or will the Mets agree to Santana’s amount? I think its more likely to run in Santana’s favor, but this deal could fall through. The ball rests mainly with Santana.
Chad we have a lot of young guys that should not be pitching more than 150 innings this year if we are at all interested in their long term health…
Someone needs to put innings in, if we are talking about Blackburn or Humber to break camp in our rotation, we have less ML ready depth than we think…
Ryan….that’s the same question I asked earlier. Is the deal contingent upon Santana waiving his NTC or agreeing to an extension AND waiving his NTC? If it’s the former and the Mets are obligated to complete the deal, then they could end up with Santana for 1 season and then he’s a FA. Mets couldn’t be that stupid, are they?
Sid, I am talking about the comments from Hunter’s agent. He said that Santana wants to be a Met. The things you read about that come from former team mates, future team mates is all designed to fire up the fan base to give one side or the other some leverage. I’m not talking about comments made on a blog.
Hawk-
of course it would be a walk year… I bet he could think of 170 million reasons to pitch well this year…
RyanW
The Red Sox joked around about a 6 man rotation. I think the Twins might need to think about it to keep the innings down on the young arms.
Liriano shouldn’t throw more than 150 innings
Bonser and Baker might not be good enough to pitch more than 150 innings.
Slowey I think could pitch 175-200 innings if he pitches well enough because he has no gas in the arm as it is. He’s a junkball pitcher.
Blackburn might be able to handle more than 150 innings if he’s good enough to pitch 150 innings.
Mulvey, and Humber won’t see the 100 inning mark unless they either do something really special, or the Twins are really desperate.
Baker
Liriano
Bonser
Slowey
Blackburn
Perkins
Mulvey
Humber
Then we have
Swarzak
Sosa
Manship
Robertson
I believe we will see all of those pitchers starting games in the major leagues for the twins in 2008. Just to see what’s ready for 2009. (that could be fun!)
Liriano, Swarzak, Perkins, Robertson, Slowey
I also think that Yohan Pino rebounds this year from a shaky 2007, and becomes a bullpen ace, not a closer, but a Guerrier kind of pitcher. Maybe Humber or Mulvey can end up trying out for closer?
Who are the leading candidates for Sabathia? What do you think he’ll want as far as a contract goes. Also did anyone hear that Boras represents Gomez. We didn’t go after Ellsbury for that reason. Huuuh!!!! WTF
Hawk,
What would be an interesting senerio is if they do not agree to a deal, Santana is forced to wave his NTC, but stay with the Mets. By midseason, the Mets have come to realization that they can not afford him and will not pay him in the FA market, so they deal him (I believe once the NTC is waved it would stay waved) at the deadline.
I wonder what they would get in return, it might actually be as much as they gave up to get him…
The best pitcher in baseball and not even the yanks want to try to afford him. Could he go unemployed as a pitcher because no one will be able to afford him hmmm……
I dont think Liriano should pitch more than 125 this year. Humber shouldnt pitch more than 150 total innings (AAA and ML).
I think Baker or Bonser have pitched enough professional ball to be streched out a little… but that assumes Bonser can find the 7th inning in game for once…
Whoever is the 11th and 12th guy on the staff will get a lot of innings in middle releif… Perkins or Blackburn… maybe Duensing…
over the years i never thought of johan as a money first type guy. it didn’t surprise me with hunter and silva just got lucky but it seems santana has really hit the me first money first top rung here. i know getting what you can is fine but he or his agent seem to be playing a greedy game. is he feeding sprewell’s kids?
I don’t think Santana will waive his NTC without a deal in place. My understanding is that they have to have the whole deal in place and signed by the deadline. Then Johan waives his NTC.
I don’t think he would be forced to waive his NTC. Nor do I think he has to go to the Mets.
It seems as though Johan wants 200 mill over 6 years and Times Square as well. I heard he is going to be relocating Times Square to Venezuela
Morning After-
from your understanding, does the league HAVE to void the deal if there is no contract in place?
LEN3 made it sound like either the league would void the trade OR santana would be forced to wave his NTC.
mauer
redmond
morneau
harris
casilla
everett
punto
lamb
kubel
young
cuddy
gomez or pridie
monroe
baker
boof
slowey
liriano
humber or fogg
reyes
perkins
neshek
crain
rincon
nathan
Does this look like the twins roster heading to Game one of the 2008 Season?
or do we leave gomez in AAA and have a 12 man staff?? thus having cuddy play center
so bring Humber and Fogg .. if we sign Fogg.. ???
Well, I think Johan’s contract demands explain why the Twins did not deal with the Red Sox who would have never agreed to an extention with him…
It turns out maybe Bill Smith maybe did know more than we did on this deal.
After he sprung a deadline on the Twins and now is asking for 170 mil, I have started to lose a little love for the man…
If the Mets and Johan can not agree on terms of a new contract are we responsible to give back the prospects we recieved in the trade or are the Mets basically in a really bad position
what he wants and what all the other top pitchers are getting paid, beckett, holiday, peavey etc. (not zito) is so out of wack it doesn’t make sense. it will cost the mets over a million a game won unless he wins 25 gms. when he has that much money i wonder how much of the fire goes out?
When and are we going to get a true CF
MH it could be Gomez and Pirdie and no Monroe…
or just one and another IF bench player (Buscher, Tolbert, Casilla…)
hahaha
jimmy
why on earth would we get to keep the prospects??
no, the mets get them back..
and if i am the Mets, I do not reach an agreement… I tell Johan to Walk..
Take back the 4 prospects and Next off season I enter the bidding for Johan and Sabathia
jimmy if you are talking about fielding wise, we got one in Gomez…
No if he can hit… that is a pretty big if.
MH if we give back the prospects at least I would sleep good at night knowing that the Mets will be having to deal w/borras soon so have fun
MH- according to LEN3s article in the Trib today, I dont think the Mets get that option unless the league voids the deal or if Santana envokes his NTC.
I dont think the Mets get a choice in the deal… or the Twins for that matter.
I am not sure if teams trading can make a deal pending a contract extention, I think they can only offer a negotiating window…
Ryan
Hold on,
your saying the Mets don’t get what option???
If the Mets and Johan don’t come to an agreement the mets get the 4 prospects back.. and johan comes back to the twins…
or what option are you saying?
Jimmy Bee
I don’t think the Mets care about having to Deal with Boras.. They have money and they like to spend money
jimmy bee, Ellsbury being a Boras-guy wasn’t a deal killer. Though it may have been a factor.
Overrated rookie + egomaniacal agent = short Twins career.
Ellsbury didn’t want to be here, he made that public. Combine that with Boras and you might as well have started the “Days until we need a new CF” countdown.
Boras would’ve forced the Twins to either go through arbitration for however many years, or told them to put up WAY too much money up front to keep Ellsbury beyond his days of servitude.
Mourning,
Sorry, I misunderstood you.
MH if the Mets have so much money then why is this contract negotiation taking so long. Also things could be worse imagine if Johan was a Boras client
The deal is setup based on Santana waiving his NTC. He will only do that if there is a contract in place that he feels is acceptable or decides to try and play it out in NY for one year. At point the Mets would have to decide if giving up 4 prospects with the hopes of finally getting a contract done during the season is worth risk.
The Twins have no say in the deal at all except to say we would extend the deadline..at which point MLB gets involved an either extends the deadline or voids the deal.
My guess is 130M extension for 5 years. plus a 15M signing bonus — since when did MLB become the NFL.
No way the Mets have the balls to walk away on the deal
Jason Stark, updated this morning:
In the meantime, there are signs that the Mets continue to express interest in free-agent pitcher Kyle Lohse. Lohse was viewed, essentially, as the Mets’ backup plan in case they weren’t able to trade for Santana. But when one baseball man who had spoken with Mets GM Omar Minaya was asked if the club could end up with both Santana and Lohse, the reply was: “Absolutely.”
God that would make me feel better about this whole thing…
you look at all the good starting pichers coming to the free agent market next winter johan could very well see his price drop in that market. the mets would be wise to wait a yr. and i think that’s what both the sox and yanks felt. why pay him 25m a yr when there will be a lot of very good options for the 12-18m yr range next winter.
Jimmy
Look at the Contract Johan is asking for..
its outrageous..
mets have money, but 7 for $170 is an absurd amount for a pitcher..
and its a contract i think the mets should refuse to agree on..
Thats way to much for a pitcher
Next year Sabathia (who is a year younger then Johan) Will sign with the Yanks for 8 years $200mil ATLEAST… probably 8 for $220mil
MH-
Again… this comes from LEN3…
“Twins officials expected talks to run right up to today’s 4 p.m. league-imposed deadline. Major League Baseball has granted extensions in the past — for example, in Alex Rodriguez’s aborted trade from Texas to Boston in 2004 and when Randy Johnson was traded from Arizona to the Yankees in 2005. But the league has to be convinced that the two sides are close to a deal.
If a deal can’t be reached, Santana would have to waive his no-trade clause or the deal would be voided by the league.
If they agree on a contract, Santana will waive his no-trade clause and the Twins will receive outfielder Carlos Gomez and righthanders Philip Humber, Kevin Mulvey and Deolis Guerra.”
It appears unclear that the Mets can back out of a deal. It appears the only two parties that can void this trade are Major League Baseball and Johan Santana.
Ryan
Yeah, i was just reading that a little bit ago..
I find that interesting..
So if no agreement is reached, Johan needs to waive his NTC. otherwise he comes back to the Twins.
Otherwise the Twins would need to agree to extend the Negotiating Window
screw it.. i don’t it..
SIGN JOHAN! but not for 7 years $170 mil..
too much and its ruining the Game
I think they shouldn’t sign him actually then make him hit FA and either lower his price or not play. He is not an everyday player and the Yanks made it clear and so did Boston they really didn’t even want him. Those 2 teams just were fine as long as the other one didn’t get him. FA will ruin baseball. Is there no limit to the greed.
I haven’t read all the previous posts, but does anyone have any feelings about possibly signing Josh Fogg?
I’m would be fine with that, he’s essentially the same as Silva, and would likely come at a lower price. It would be nice to have some stability. Let the kids battle a little for other spots. Also, he would be a little insurance if Liriano can’t go for a while. All of this, of course, is contingent on his price and being a 1 or 2 year contract.
Baker, Liriano, Boof, Fogg and a battle.
i meant screw it.. i don’t get it
Sid,
Reply from earlier. The draft picks are not crappy. Prior to the 2006 season, the Yankees lost Tom Gordon (who I hold responsible for the 2004 debacle). Good setup guy. Choked in the clutch.
They got the Phillies 1sty rd pick + Supplemental pick. Those two picks turned into Ian Kennedy and Joba Chamberlain. Who would you rather have?
The Twins need to INVEST their saved money into the draft and international free agent market. Scout the amateurs. Pay above slot for the best talent and develop the players. In the long run, it is much cheaper than the MLB FA market.
At least we know that the Twins FO isn’t going to go after Lohse if the deal goes through.
Signing Loften or Patterson, and Fogg or any of the other scrap heap pitchers does nothing for me. Not like we can contend in 2008 and 2009. Pull the Timberwolves move and get a highdraft pick and use the money saved to take the best guy.
As Sid said earlier,
If BS could have traded for Hughes, Kennedy, Chamberlain, Cano and Mickey
F-cking Mantle at the winter meetings, the Yankees would have still rejected Santana’s contract demands.
And we would have ended up exactly where we are today - hoping the Mets can sign him so we can keep Gomez and the three pitchers.
KB I am on Board with signing Fogg, or some veteran..
yesturday i was thinking Livan.. because he eats innings and has post season experience.. ( we could trade livan at the deadline for a low A ball prospect or so)
But I am on board with Fogg.. Twins need an innings eater..
MLBTRADERUMORS.COM
Baseball Blogs Weigh In: Johan Santana
Unless Omar Minaya fumbles the most important contract negotiation of his career (we can’t see that happening), the biggest story of the 2007-08 off-season now has an ending and the enduring national nightmare is over. Johan Santana is a Met…now we can get back to talking about more important issues like Kyle Lohse and Livan Hernandez. But before we do let’s take a look at reactions to the Santana trade from the blogosphere.
* Aaron Gleeman is sentimental as his blog has grown up along side Santana’s career. Now he is disappointed in the package the Twins received but hopeful it could still work out in the long run.
* Twinkie Town believes trading Santana is status-quo for the Twins as the franchise seems to be in a perpetual state of rebuilding. This seems like overreaction considering the Twins have been in the playoffs four of the past six years.
* Twins Territory is not disappointed in the trade outcome. They believe Bill Smith had his hands tied and four top prospects is a nice haul.
* Amazin’ Avenue was still smiling hours after the news broke and feels Twins fans must be disappointed in the package they received.
* Metsgeek doesn’t care what the price was for Santana. He is worth it and they are giddy.
* The ‘Ropolitans are begging the Mets to pay Santana whatever it takes to get him signed. We have to agree. The Mets can’t mess this one up.
* Fire Brand of the American League (Red Sox) speculates that the Red Sox may have backed off of Santana when they learned the Yankees were no longer interested.
* My Baseball Bias believes the Yankees won the Santana Sweepstakes by not mortgaging the future for one $150 million player. Normally we would agree, but Santana is not 35 and winning is about pitching and Santana is the best pitcher alive.
* Was Watching shows that the Mets (and the Red Sox) have done a better job of acquiring pitchers than the Yankees, and Santana is the latest example.
So did they Get Johan Signed??
OR is this just an assumption that they Will get it done?
my bad
johan is not signed..
they are just assuming it gets done
6 hours to go. Here is hoping the Mets come through an overspend for a starting pitcher.
As far as Fogg is concerned I would pick him if we have too out of the names I have heard. Would like to see it as a 1yr, plus team option 1yr. probably cost 3-4M/yr.
If the Mets don’t sign Santana odds on the Twins being able to trade him will be zero. Get ready for two draft picks.
rjb,
Draft picks like that are one in a hundred shot for the Twins who can’t afford to pay above slot bonuses.
We drafted Plouffe, Waldrop, Rainville and Matt Fox in the 1st and supplementary round 1st round in 2004 - par for the course.
So theoretically, Santana could waive his NTC w/o an extension, become a Met for one yr, be a FA at year’s end, and the Twins get to keep the 4 prospects?
If this is the case, then I now understand why the GM’s were so reluctant to dive in and why the market for Santana was weak.
Switching gears here, but does anyone know when the new jerseys (Young, Gomez, etc) go on sale? My bro’s b-day is coming up and he’s been a big Young fan for a couple years (he’s even got his D-Rays jersey…)
Thanks in advance
Ellsbury and Carlos Gomez the same are they both are Scott Boras clints but waths makes them drifent is that ellsbury didn’t want to be a twin and carlos gomez sounds like he wants to be a twin and a good cf for us
Hawk…The Mets would have to agree to the change in the deal. IE..the deal was contingent on them getting Johan to sign and extension plus wave his NTC. If he states he will wave his NTC to become a MET the METS would have to agree to the risk of only having him this year and not being able to get an extension done prior to the end of the season or resign him during FA.
The slotting system is flawed. There was a nice article about it at BP.
Here is the link to a Kevin Goldstein article on the slotting system.
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=6545
Kennedy bonus 1.2M (?)
Joba 1.1M (?)
The Twins payroll is down about 20M this season (assuming Santana signs). Invest THAT money in the draft and the IFA market. According to something I read (cant find the source), the NYY spent 13.5 million for bonuses for 06/07. They have rebuilt their farm from bottom5 to top5 in 3 years.
The TWINS can pay above slot, they just seem philosophically opposed to it.
KB & MH…..Fogg? 4.90 career era in the pitcher-friendly NL? Fogg would have an era over 5 in the AL with tougher teams and a DH. If a 5.XX era is acceptable then we already have the arms to do THAT. Where’s Terry Mulholland anyway?
BFE….we need a baseball lawyer to decipher this stuff. Seems like everyone “knows” the innner workings of this deal but each has a different take on it. Not sure who to believe.
should we see if Fernando Valenzuela is still out there somewhere
I wonder if the Mets have considered Johan’s makeup and ability to pitch in the New York pressure cooker. Someone mentioned Johan’s post-season record: it’s 1-2. How about his record last year against Cleveland? How about the year he had last year (his worst era since 2001) when he faced the “stress” of uncertainty over his contract? How is he going to pitch in the constant pressure of NYC? I hope the Mets sign him for $150-170 M. Then they might find out he was a great small market pitcher with very little (or no) success in big pressure games. No one is worth anywhere near that money. I hope someday soon the big market teams will realize this and baseball can become a real 30 team league again. MLB needs a real salary cap.
I’ve gone back and forth on signing a Fogg or any other veteran. It all depends on the price. I have no delusions that they are going to compete this year, but if it is a cheap signing and not for more than 2 years, I’m OK with it.
I’ve been saying they need to just let the kids go and see what they have for a long time, but now that I really look at who would be in the rotation, I think it might be best to have someone that has completed a full ML season.
Look at the stats, he’s essentially Silva, a little worse, but that was in Colorado, too.
this blog has a little x-files, but the truth is out there!
MBDave….MLB does have a cap. It’s $1 more than the Yankee’s payroll.
MBDave,
I’m not worried about Santana in NY. I think the benefit of pitching against people that haven’t faced him and his change-up much and just the fact the NL is weaker offensively will produce a great year for him this year. That will take alot of the pressure off. Not to mention the benefit of run-support that is better than what he had here.
Hawk, Fogg was in the pitcher-friendly NL while playing in the hitter-friendly Coors Field. 
Would you rather the Twins blow some big money to bring in an ace type pitcher? Aside from the fact there isn’t one out there (Silva and Lohse are/were the top two pitchers available supposedly), they would’ve just kept Santana at that point.
They’ve got Liriano and Crain coming off injuries, as well as Perkins. The idea is to bring in a veteran who (though not the best) can eat some innings if the young guys start getting tired.
*Addendum*
Keep in mind the rotation this year is all youth. So one veteran such as Fogg isn’t blocking too much.
Unlike last season when you had Ortiz and Ponson taking up two fifths of a rotation that was also going to include Santana and Silva coming out of the gate. That left one spot for a rookie. This year even with Fogg there’d be 4 spots for a young pitcher in the rotation.
Not nearly as bad a situation as 07.
I say sign Fogg, I want him more than Hernandez.
Fogg if he is just as good as Silva for 8M less a year that isn’t bad for the next two years. My thought is I still wouldn’t mind seeing the young kids do their stuff.
Baker
Boof
Liriano
Slowey
Humber
back ups
Blackburn
Perkins
Mulvey
Hawk … you are correct a law degree would help in this deal
I’ve been saying for awhile that Bill Smith is bringing a different (and better) philosophy to building the Twins. I think one indication of whether that’s true is what they do in the draft. TR never wanted to pay big money for draft picks, and they didn’t always draft the best players. I’m hoping BS changes that.
One national pundit was rating the Twins minor leaguers as in the bottom five in MLB. The same guy said that a team can rebuild their system fairly quickly if they draft and sign the best players for a couple of years. I think it’s time the Twins did that.
The potential Fogg deal makes me worry, though. Yes, they have money, but I see no reason to think he’d be better than several of their young guys. Unless they see something in his game that they think they can work with.
Tyler - What do you see in Fogg that gives you hope he can be any better than Ramon Ortiz? NL pitchers are usually considerably worse in the AL, and that prospect is seriously scary.
T…..Fogg’s numbers in Colorado weren’t that much different than in Pittsburgh. What’s the difference between Ortiz, Ponson, etc….and Fogg?
You get the same results and it doesn’t get us any closer to any goal. Just my opinion…
Regarding those who want to sign a FA SP.I think if it’s Fogg or Thomson lets pass.
For one thing one is 31 the other is 34 years old.Some of Fogg’s numbers are hard to compare since he pitches in Colorado.But,comparing him to Silva, he looks like he has less control then him(alot more walks to innings pitched).He does pitch a steady amount of innings year in and year out though…if that’s what were looking for?
Most importantly, I feel we have a large stockpile of young SP that we need to evaluate.So lets see what we have and let them pitch.Unless you think were going to contend, which I think is not a high probability,why bring someone in just yet.
There is another advantage to signing Fogg or Garcia… if they end up pitching even above average they can be traded for mid level guys at the deadline…
One more point,I think those that are posting about a SP FA pickup will most likely be right.Because I believe I read somewhere ( I can’t remember where though), that BS was going to add a FA after the Santana signings.He did not say pitcher or hitter…but look we just lost 2 big starters,so I figure they will add a another high innings pitcher.
I just don’t think the Twins should do it.
boy the fans on metsblog are getting really nervous, they,re ready to burn down the stadium if this falls apart.
i dont have a problem taking a chance on fogg or livan, but my ?s this, why do we have to go to a fa pile full of these type of retreads, dont we have some trading clout to nab some #3 or so starter from one of these teams…theres got to be someone out there thats not happy, not settled or wants a change of venue and a team that can afford to trade a #3 or 4 -just a straigt up trade… and the other thing that concerns me is all this talk about rebuilding this year for opening at the new stadium, not really contending this year….well if we dont contend this year, what the hell is going to be so damn much different a year from now…we have a pretty solid team the way i see it now, and we will know alot more in the next few months, and out pitching staff will show us more down the road, but overall we might as well go for it this year and stop all this nonsense that says we wont be competitive this year…if not then 2009 isnt going to be much better that i can see….why not one more dome world series…???
theres nothing wrong in wishin anda hopin …. pridie…cf gomez AAA (learn to hit) unless he just flat out comes out of spring training winning the job hands down…great..
gobbledygookguy CAN YOU GIVE E THE LINK I WANT TO SEE WHAT THEY ARE SAYING ON METS BLOG
Maybe I’m the only one who thinks there’s a chance the Mets and Santana might not complete the deal. Santana holds all the power right now and it would kill the Twins if it doesn’t work out: http://www.twinsrumors.com
now the mets fans are talking about how humbers physical may not pass….. how sad… well.. time to get a add in with him (pelfrey or martinez) to make us take him 
liondragon YEAAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!!!!!! pelfrey or martinez
jimmy bee just google “metsblog”
Ryan I agree
Dennis said:
Mat - I think you said something earlier about Santana not being a bad guy for what he’s doing, that he should just go for as much money as he can get.
————–
I did say he’s not a bad guy for wanting his situation worked out one or another before the season started. I didn’t say he should go out for as much money as he can get. If you don’t believe me, look, look, and look.
Dennis said:
I’ve been thinking about that, and I do see reasons to criticize him. Your stance requires a philosophy that values money as the sole determinant of happiness, success and values.
———————————
Ironically, this idea you’re building is exactly opposed to the reality of the situation. What is Johan’s threat? Pay me more or I won’t play? No. It’s give me a stable work environment for the season. It can be with the Twins; it can be with another team; but once the year starts, that’s how it’s going to stay. If you want to pay me less than I could get if I was traded, that’s fine. But you’re not going to disrupt my environment.
So actually, Santana is going *against* your whole diatribe of there’s all these things that matter more than money. That’s what HE’S saying. He doesn’t want the distraction during the season. He doesn’t want to have to move and go work with other people in the middle of the season. In short, your sermon on the mount is completely misdirected.
wouldnt surpise me a bit if humbers physical fails…i guess we could hope- and force the mets hand….and the damn suspense continues…lol….
As far as whoever was talking about, “market price” and the highest bidder, there’s a concept in auction theory called, “winner’s curse” that they only needed to pay the amount of: second-highest bid + $1. But in many cases, they spend much more. That still makes the price paid, “the market price”.
Oh, and something else about Santana only caring about money. When he got upset last mid-season, was it because he wasn’t getting paid enough? No. It was because the Twins traded away Luis Castillo and signaled that they were raising the white flag for the season. So he was upset that the franchise wasn’t committed to winning. If all Santana was looking for was someone to CTC (Cut The Check) he wouldn’t have cared two whits.
The, “genius” of the mob. Sheesh.
T- going back to the days of servitude…
The Twins don’t keep their players past servitude, so what’s it matter? We’d let him go in FA, or trade him.
So the Scott Boros thing is defeated two ways, Gomez has him for an agent, and the cheapskate owners here don’t pay for players anyways.
Ellsbury here still makes the most sense of any of the deals out there. I could understand the Hughes cries, but I disagreed with them.
This deal with the Mets is right up there with Hershall Walker and Kevin Garnett (can Gerald Green spell his own name? Can Theo play more than 10 games a season, Can Telfair make a jumper, can Gomes find consistancy, and does Al Jefferson understand the concept of pass the ball out of double and triple teams? NO) Bill Smith needs to quit being inspired by Kevin McHale. That’s dangerous…
Hawk says:So theoretically, Santana could waive his NTC w/o an extension, become a Met for one yr, be a FA at year’s end, and the Twins get to keep the 4 prospects?
———————-
If the Mets accepted. It’s not like Johan could just waive his NTC and then the Mets would be stuck with him for one year without having anything to say about it. If the Mets don’t work out a contract with Santana that they’re satisfied with, then the trade with the Twins just gets nixed. Simple as that.
Mat
I agree that he cares about more than money. On the other hand, money does seem to be the biggest factor here. If all he wanted was to know he’d be with the same team all year next year, and play for a potential winner, his agent wouldn’t still be arguing money with the team that was willing to give hime those things.
mat,
no your wrong… the risk of not getting a extension done is that santana could waive the no trade clause and just finish the deal for one year… then go to free agency.. if a deal doesnt get done then either santana waives the no trade clause and plays with the mets for one year or the trade is nullified…
BC,
IMO,
If we had made your Ellsbury trade, the Sox would not have accepted Santana’s newly revealed contract demands - TRADE CANCELLED - The Mets offer is what would remain.
saam,
Anyone who was going to enter into a contract that is going to earn 75%+ of all the money that you’re going to see in your lifetime, and that your family is going to see in its lifetime, and that all your aunts, uncles, and neighbors will see in your lifetime… you’re going to be careful and try to negotiate the best deal that you can get. To do otherwise is just foolish.
It doesn’t mean you don’t also care about other things.
No no no. Johan can’t just decide to waive his No Trade Clause and then force the Mets to take him for one year. That’s why you see this reported as a, “conditional trade”, as in, conditional upon working out an agreement.
what do you guys think about bring Doug Mientkiewicz as a bench player left handed bat off the bench and back up at first base for Justin and back 3b with nick punto for mike lamb
Sane,
and though it’s symantics… had they went with the Red Sox offer, and it fell apart… at least it would have shown that Bill Smith had the ability to choose the right trade that would have been best for this team… which players would have been best.
Santana’s demands are outrageous, but not ridiculous considering that Arod is getting 30 million a year, and Jason Giambi is getting 22 million this year, or the 15 million that Rivera is getting…
And as for Sabbathia… 6 years 110 million is my guess unless he has another year like last year, then he’s demanding more money than Santana. The man’s a jerk…
mat,
yes he can…. thats the rules on this… santana gets to decide if he wants to make this deal offical by waiving the no trade clause.. the 72 hour thing is just part of the deal… if that is unsuccessful then santana decides wether to nullify the deal or spend the one year in mets uniform…
Mat
Reread the first sentence of my last post. I never said he didn’t care about other things. Nor did I say that I faulted him for trying to max out his earnings. What I said, and believe, is that money appears to be more of a motivation than those other things.
Dano…
how dare you call Dougy T-ball a bat off the bench.
he’s a defensive replacement for one of the best defensive 1st baseman in the game (stats wise).
Let Cuddyer spell a break for Morneau occasionally, and have Monroe play the outfield that game.
No need to bring Dougy Tball back here. That is like having two Nick Puntos on the roster!
The only good thing about Tball is that his wife is amazingly hot.
liondragon,
I don’t know where you’re getting your info, but you need a new source.
Dennis,
I must have been reading the samething last night. It is unreal how poorly the Twins minor leaguers have become in the ratings.
Another example is Scouts,Inc ranked the top 100 prospects this year. Guess how many the Twins have 2 - and that is only if the Santana deal goes through.
Time for Bill Smith to pony up the dough on the picks. If the Twins fall in Win column this year we should be looking at prize picks. Plus we have extra ones for the Torii signing.
time for some of us to go onto the mets blog guys and voice our opinions hmmmmm…….
lion
I think Mat is right. The extension is a condition of the trade. Without it, all the conditions of the trade have not been met and the trade hasn’t been completed so Johan remains with the Twins.
Mat - Settle down. “Methinks thou dost protest too much.” What I wrote was nothing approaching a diatribe or “sermon on the mount”. I said I had thought seriously about the issue for awhile, and had decided there were reasons to criticize Santana. Don’t turn a complex reaction on my part into simplicity.
Yes, there were obviously other reasons why Santana wanted to leave. I hear he had interest in playing before a larger Latin audience. I hear he may have wanted to play for a team with a greater chance to win it all. But I also heard his main goal was to get the largest contract ever. And based on how the negotiations with the Mets seem to be going there’s no reason not to believe that. My best judgment is that money was the primary goal. Though I recognize I could be wrong about that.
My point, which you willfully chose to read simplistically, is that there is a mentality in sports (and to a large extent in America as a whole) that does indeed use money as the prime determinant of success and values. Torii Hunter, I now read, was set to go to the White Sox, and then the Angels came in with a larger offer so off he went there. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that Santana was interested in the three teams with the best chance to pay him the largest amount of money.
Ask yourself this question: what is the purpose of money? In any sort of balanced thought system money is valuable because it provides a person more happiness and/or contentment. It gives security, and it allows one to purchase the things that provide the happiness that is sought. But other things provide happiness too - love, friendship, stability, spirituality. On a more mundane level, good co-workers (or teammates), reciprocated loyalty, etc. Or in Johan’s case, fans with whom you’ve developed a “relationship”.
It’s a big complex web of things. Any philosophy or value system that looks primarily at money as the “prime directive” is a value system that is screwed up. It’s my judgment after careful consideration that there’s a good chance that Santana has, to a large degree, that sort of screwed up value system.
jimmy bee…
I’m all about causings come chaos… give me the site, and I’ll make people cry!
bc,
http://www.metsblog.com
go for it.. ill watch
Trade deadline in four hours.
Please Mets, sack up, sign him and save the trade.
I don’t need no freakin’ draft choices.
agreed
Dennis,
that was fantastic!
i will be on there causing chaos by 1:00 come by and see
Thanks Hank!
Money also allows you to donate to worthy causes of YOUR choice.
Does Santana want the money to go to family, friends and impoverished Venezuelans; or let the Mets keep the money and decide where to spend it?
Sane - Good point. Though I’m guessing (and again I could be wrong) that Santana’s thought process is not: “gee, I have to hold out for $170M so I can send more to impoverished Venezuelans.”
lion and Mat….That’s why the question keeps getting asked about the NTC and the contingencies. Everyone has a different take on it. I’ve had enough B-Law classes to know some things are simple and other look simple but are not. Wish LaVelle or someone could clarify this.
Here is hoping that Santana’s greed bites him in the arse. For the Twins sake I hope this trade goes through but a little bit of me wouldn’t mind it falling apart and Santana coming back and not doing as well as Sabathia this year and getting the lesser offer in FA.
3 hours and 40 mintues to go
jimmy bee says:
February 1st, 2008 at 12:14 pm
i will be on there causing chaos by 1:00 come by and see
i’ll be there by two if the deal isn’t done
is it true that john rocker is almost god like in the new york locals eyes
jk dano
BC said: “the cheapskate owners here don’t pay for players anyways.”
While that was true in the past. They’ve now shown potential in changing that philosphy. Mauer last year, Morneau and Cuddyer this year.
Johan Santana Extension Talks Continue
Ken Rosenthal has an update on the Johan Santana extension talks. He says the Mets are offering something like $110MM over five seasons with a vesting option for the sixth. The proposed average annual value of $22MM isn’t far off, but Santana wants six or even seven years guaranteed.
ummm.. so Johan probably will not get signed?? am i the only one thinking that???
they are WAY off
Dennis has a very valid point.
If this deal does hold up, I’d be very interested to see how Santana holds up once he’s got the New York media breathing down his neck after he fails to strike out 10 guys for the 11th straight game.
t,
lets wait and see if they change there approach on signing second time around.. they are good on signing the first time but normally let them walk the second time… ala hunter santana…..
The Mets will cave and give him the 6th year guaranteed, MH. The pressure from the Media will be too great to not get it done.
Can you imagine the hissy fit New York in general will have if both the Yankees and Mets screw up a chance to get Johan?
ok, I’m awaiting a password.
Mets fans are so advanced.
T
i think either the mets or yanks will get johan..
cept i think the mets/yanks/sox will enter next offseason bidding on johan and sabathia..
i said it earlier..
if i am the mets.. and johan wants 7 years $170 (which has been reported) then i do not want to give up the 4 prospects..
as a twins fan.. i want johan to sign with the mets right now.. i want the prospects and i want to move on..
Actually T, I don’t think very many people have suggested that the Yankees screwed up. Besides, if the Mets don’t sign him and he comes back here for one year, the Yankees will get him as a FA. Another reason why the Mets will probably cave…
BC….be sure tell let us know which link you’re posting to. Still using BC?
A large part of me wants the Mets to hold out (the upward push on salaries is not good for baseball). But it’s very hard to imagine them not agreeing in the end. If they don’t, the fans would outdo the masked hordes at the end of “V”.
so anyone think if the deal falls through we trade Johan during the season?
Any chance we make another trade with him after the Mets deal collapses before the season starts?
bc,
let us know when your going on the blog…. i cant miss this….
(godzilla has reached the mets blog)
(AHHHHHHHHHHHH EVERYONE OUT OF THE BLOG!!!! HES TEARING US APART!!!!!!!! AHHHHHH AHHHHH AHHHH AHHHH AHHHH AHHH)
(wow a twins fan is on the blog now… NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
HE FOUND A WAY TO GET ON THIS BLOG NOOOOOOO NOW MORE PEOPLE WILL COME ON FROM THE TWINS BLOG!!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOO)
If the Mets and Johan can’t agree and the deal falls through, then what? Will Johan tell the Twins to try another team or will he simply play through ‘08 and go the FA route?
funny the mets guys were ready to burn down the stadium this morning now they are starting to call him greedy. as the world turns so do the fickle fans.
Going to Joe’s new blog entry –>
Hawk,
You may have taken B-Law classes. I’m studying to take the New York Bar right now. Let me promise you 1000% that the conditional trade is not structure to just happen on Johan’s say-so.
Dennis,
“the three teams that Santana was most interested”? Really, I haven’t heard boo on what teams Santana is most interested. I’ve only heard what teams have been interested in Santana. The Twins tried to shop the trade to the Angels, without success. But that wasn’t because Santana wasn’t interested in the Angels (or, say, the Royals)… that’s because those franchises didn’t want to step into the mix for the price of the players that the Twins wanted and the contract that Johan did.
If you really want to see a case where a player drove a trade, google Griffey, Seattle, and Cincinnati. He basically told Seattle, “Here’s my list of teams that I’m interested in: Cincinnati.” Seattle seriously got ripped on that trade because of it. The only conditions Johan set were that it had to be before spring training and he would need to get an extension.
I am registered as BC Beneke…
Glutton for punishment that I am.
But I’m still freaking waiting for my password!!!!!
BC do you think that Craig has to make his presnce felt over at METSBLOG
Bone head Smith really messed up with the trade of Santana. But I think he may have been required by the Pohlads to take the least expensive offer out there in order to same money.
I think that after all the crap Len’s blog put up with, Craig should definitely be unleashed on the Met’s blog.
I have mixed feelings about getting the deal done. On the one hand, I would get a certain glee in having Santana come back to the Twins, the organization and teammates he tried to trash and screw over, with his tail between his legs. On the other, I would just like to get Gomez and Guerra and bid adieu to Mr. Greedy.
I think it is amazing that more sports writers don’t seem to recognize the fact that the Twins organization passed up the two better offers for Santana in order to take the cheapest. The Met deal will cost them alot less in salaries for alot longer. Penny Pincher Pohlad is the scrooge of baseball.
twinterman and thartman,
If you guys are so sure, then lay out the salaries of all the players who would have been involved in each deal. As far as I’m aware, the *only* player discussed who would have been making more than the minimum would have been Coco Crisp. Everyone else wasn’t even eligible for arbitration.
thartman don’t get me started on CP
awaiting password see ya there bc
Mat, you might as well just address them as one entity. Those two posts look an awefully lot alike.
I mean, I’d love to pretend to have a bigger support structure than I actually do…but I don’t feel the need to pretend to be more than one person in order to get my point across.
And anybody honestly thinking the Mets deal was taken because it was the cheapest hasn’t been paying attention to anything beyond “Twins looking to trade Santana”
Smith contacted the Yanks and Sox one last time before going with the Mets offer. This was following Santana’s deadline and what must’ve been the most hellish first few months of a GM’s career trying to work both the trade angle and potential signing angle with Santana.
But seriously, the 4 Mets players are hardly any more or less expensive than either offer from the Yanks or Sox. If there is a difference…it’s negligible.
“We need to trade David Wright for desparately needed pitching”.
see ya over at metsblog craig
I would have to say TWO points for Mat.
None of the players were making anything except Crisp. Melky would be the next one on the list due to time in the majors followed by Lester.
If I were to guess the order would be
Crisp
Cabrera
Lester
Hughes
Ellsbury or Gomez
You know, for as much as people get annoyed by opposing fans trolling the boards here at the Strib…I’m amazed by how many are going to go over and rip the Mets.
T,
I would have to agree. I could care less about what Mets fans think about the deal going south or not.
Personally I would love to see them not do the deal. It would be bad for the Twins but I think a goodthing overall for baseball. Especially if Johan has a subpar year.
Any chance we sign Doug Meincavitch? he is so good defensively, and would be a great defensive back up for Morneau?
I say sign Fogg,Dougie, and maybe lofton depending on whether or not we put Gomez in AAA. Thoughts?
T I know…
It’s funny, I’ve never been one to rip them for trolling at all. Roundabout is one of the coolest people I’ve come across on here.
A couple of Red Sox fans are alright too. Beantown was a daldkjaglja, but we all have our issues.
I love to see how other people think, and taste other flavors.
Sounds like Santana is starting to wise up and is going to cave in a little. Deal should get done in less then the 2 hours needed.
Source EspnNY - Marchand
Desparately needing pitching help, please trade David Wright.
Im not that familiar with the Santana deadline stuff. If the ball is in the Twins court, is the idea of saying to the mets “we will give you another day if you throw in Pelfry if you sign him? is that possible? Someone mentioned that idea and i am curious if that is likely at all?
i heard that negotiations are actually off because they couldn’t come to grips with signing the best pitcher in baseball to a 6 year deal is that true. this will be on si
metsblog post
Comment by jimmy bee
2008-02-01 15:02:23
Desparately needing pitching help, please trade David Wright.
Ball does fall back into the Twins court alittle bit if they need to extend the deadline.
If the Mets and Santana can’t reach a deal in time then the Mets can contact the Twins to ask for an extension. But even if we approve it. IE… we want the deal done as is..offer up 48 more hours to close the deal for another player..it comes down to MLB. They can void the deal if it isn’t completed on time. Johan can void it as well if the deadline passes. Doesn’t sound like he will. Reports are he is bending a little and doesn’t want to comeback here.
Sweet jimmy.
http://www.metsblog.com/2008/02/01/buzz-closing-in-on-six-year-deal/#comment-91469
any suggestions for me on mets blog
Jimmy - why not taunt them that you know the Twins will trade Johan to the Yanks if the Mets Collapse again. That should drive them insane
Comment by jimmy bee
2008-02-01 15:23:20
I have an inside source through my cousin who says that he knows the Twins will trade Johan to the Yanks if the Mets Collapse again
jimmy bee,
glad to see that you’re being as witty and insightful on the mets blog as you are on here.
glad to see you are a new yorker Matt
BFE, even if Johan has a “sub-par year” by his standards…he’ll still be worth money based on his track record.
Unless that subparness ends up being connected to a nagging injury or there being truth that he still has a tell.
imo-Johan will not let the deadline pass.Don’t forget,so far his agent is doing the negotiatons.He has a vested interest in getting the highest contract for Johan.The higher the contract,the bigger percentage for the agent.If doesn’t relent to a fair middle ground,he will fire him and get a new agent
Matt…we heard you were traded for the Minn. reporter? What happened? Did you fail your physical? LOL
that’s all i was blocked
GENO — Good luck getting a new agent in time to get the biggest contract in MLB history for a SP in time.
I agree though Johan would be an idiot to not sign this deal.
T - You are correct Johan will probably still be costing a ton next year. Unless he has a real subpar year or gets hurt. But he might not be number one on the list if CC out performs him again.
So here’s an interesting thought.
If (god forbid) the Mets deal falls through, it’s likely both Santana and Sabathia hit the FA market next year.
So with that in mind…
Which goes to Boston, and which goes to NYY?
I would guess they both go to NY. I don’t think Boston gets either one.
Santana to the Yanks, Sabathia to the Mets
There might be the slight possibility that JOhan doesn’t want to play for the Mets all that much.
If I were going to go to NY, I would rather play on Broadway than off-Broadway. Who is the bigger dog in NY? The Mets or the Yankees? Which team has had the most success?
Just saying.
15 minutes to go and no deal….. Gomez in right at Shea!
Johann — just say “no” to the Mets.
You’ve got 10 minutes left as a Twin. Turn down the Mets offer and come back and play for us!
Greenberg is doing a VERY good job in negotiations if he has already gotten the Mets to the money and length that is being reported at this time. 7 years, 152mil is what I would consider a blockbuster.
The biggest problem with that deal, at least in my eyes, it sets up for even bigger contracts in the future. If Santana sets himself up with over a million per win (if he wins 22 games that is), pretty much any run of the mill pitcher will be able to point to that and say, hey, I won 14 games last year, pay me.
When CC Sabitha gets to free agency, watch out.
What has me worried is, what happens when our young pitchers get to their first good contract? If Liriano comes back strong, how are the Twins even gonna consider paying him? If Santana gets 22 now, he would probably command 30 by then. Man, I should have practiced my pitching as a kid.
The chances of the Mets messing up signing Santana is nil.. And the Yanks aren’t giving the Mets much. The Twins set the bar with the Mets deal on the quality of players. No Pelfry; no Hughes;
Maybe Kennedy.. I doubt it.
Lets all wish Johan well in Queens..
He will be the King of Queens
Deadline extension??
Twins Rumors: Jon Heyman says an extension will likely be granted:
Mets have been granted an extension:
Roundabout…
I wrote this on Rand’s blog…
yes, let’s talk about Grunge bands, I’d rather deal with that than the anger I’m feeling right now with the whole Santana situation and the botch job that it appears that Bill Smith and company at Puckett Place have done.
Looking at the 2008 roster it kind of looks like a phrase that rhymes with Puckett place.
BC,
Oy…. You guys have reason to be upset and disappointed with the deal. You got nobody who can help this season, and probably in 2009. Low-minor league pitchers are so volatile. They can K lots of hitters in the minors but the ball becomes larger in the major. Who hell knows.
52 minutes to go…
NEW YORK — Major League Baseball has granted Johan Santana and the New York Mets an extra two hours to work on a contract extension Friday, pushing the deadline to 7 p.m. EST.
The Mets and Santana’s agents continued to negotiate furiously Friday, as the original 5 p.m. ET deadline to complete terms of a long-term contract came and went with no immediate resolution.
And as that 5 p.m. deadline passed, indications were that the key sticking point continued to be Santana’s attempts to get the Mets to guarantee all six years of his contract extension, on top of the final year of his current contract.
According to baseball sources who have been monitoring the negotiations, the Mets’ best hope to resolve that disagreement would be to offer to guarantee the sixth season if Santana’s side would agree to accept fewer dollars per year.
The Mets and the Minnesota Twins agreed to a tentative deal Tuesday pending the completion of an extension for Santana, a two-time Cy Young winner. In return, the Twins would receive center fielder Carlos Gomez and pitching prospects Phil Humber, Kevin Mulvey and Deolis Guerra.
The buzz in the industry Friday was that Santana’s agents, Peter and Ed Greenberg, initially asked for the $28 million per year listed in Roger Clemens’ prorated contract with the Yankees last season — which would have amounted to a six-year, $168 million extension. That amount would not have included either a signing bonus or the $13.25 million Santana is scheduled to earn this season. So his total package would have topped $190 million.
There were indications that the Greenbergs later lowered that request to $25 million a year — which would have resulted in a six-year, $150 million extension and a total package (including this season) of more than $170 million.
The Mets’ initial offers, however, were all believed to be just five-year guarantees, plus a vesting option for 2014, in the range of $21 million a year.
But there was rampant speculation in the industry Friday afternoon that the two sides were headed toward a compromise in which the Mets would guarantee the sixth season if Santana lowered his salary request to $22 million a year.
With a hefty signing bonus added to this year’s salary, that figure would bring Santana’s total package to about $152 million over seven years — the largest contract ever awarded to any pitcher.
The $22 million per year also would be a record for a pitcher on a multi-year contract — and, in fact, would be the third-highest average annual salary in baseball history, behind only Alex Rodriguez’s last two contracts ($27.5 million in the deal signed this winter, $25.2 million in the contract he signed with Texas in December 2000).
But as of mid-afternoon Friday, the two sides hadn’t agreed to those figures — or any other figures.
His opening asking price is $28 million and a six year contract starting in 2009— WOW if that’s true..
Johan Santana Extension Talks Continue
4:11pm: According to WFAN, the Mets asked to extend the deadline two hours to 6pm CST.
4:00pm: Santana is meeting with Mets officials himself. The deadline could probably be extended. The length of the deal remains a key issue.
3:51pm: ESPN’s Jayson Stark says Santana wants six guaranteed years, starting with the 2009 season. The Mets might do it for a lower average annual value. Stark says Santana’s initial asking price was $28MM per year.
3:45pm: This thing is getting down to the wire. I just received some info, but this stuff is as of 2pm. There is talk of ripping up Santana’s current contract and doing five years at $24MM per starting with ‘08. There could also be sixth and seventh year options. Plus, I’ve heard Santana is campaigning for an opt-out after three years.
1:32pm: Jon Heyman has an update as we near the deadline. The Mets are expected to give Santana a six-year extension worth $132MM ($22MM per) and also tack on a $7MM bonus to up his ‘08 salary. That would put Santana over $152MM for the 2008-14 seasons.
10:56am: Ken Rosenthal has an update on the Johan Santana extension talks. He says the Mets are offering something like $110MM over five seasons with a vesting option for the sixth. The proposed average annual value of $22MM isn’t far off, but Santana wants six or even seven years guaranteed.
I am having a hard time understanding why the TWINS allowed this extension. Unless they truly feel there was nothing ever better out there.
BFE,
The Twins feel there is nothing better out there being offered by A TEAM WHICH WILL AGREE TO SANTANA’S CONTRACT DEMANDS!
they just did according to the WFAN.
6 years $22 million per
Deal is done:
Thanks for the memories…
Total Deal:
7 years guaranteed, $150.5 Million.
Holy snikeys!
Congratulations Johan, good luck in New York, and hope we have good luck with the Mets’ prospects.
The Twins would have NEVER paid that kind of deal, so this turned out how it had to in the end.
SteveV
BFE:
The Twins agreed to the extension because if the deal falls through, they lose ALL leverage in any sort of trade talks, and Santana walks at the end of 08 for two phantom draft picks.
T,
I agree with you on the loss of any leverage to do another trade. My issue is the pressure was on the Mets as much as us. We should have told them up the ante — IE.. add Pelfry or something in exchange for the extended time.
An a little bit of me would have liked to see the reaction of the Mets fans if the deal didn’t get done and too see how Santana and/or his agents could spin passing on 135M
It is over and done with now except the physicals — no way that will kill the deal
GENTLEMEN:
It has been said many times on this blog that the name Coco Crisp should not be mentioned. Nobody wants him to play here.
Do you suppose Santana will be able to throw that slider for $22 million a year or will the National hitters sit and wait for that off speed Homerun pitch?
MARK:
I wondered that also. When Johan gets the big money, where is the incentive?
Santana is a greedy snake in the grass and I hope his arm falls off. My god the mets end up the fools in this trade not the twins.
BFE,
It doesn’t work like that. The Twins suggest that and the Mets laugh as Santana is turned away at the door.
I am going to miss Roundabout.
Damn Bill Smith and the Mets!
great writeup of how the twins actually got johan to begin with:
Wow! Look at all the money the Twins are saving! That is a savings of almost 23 Million per year.
Good for Johan-”SHOW ME THE MONEY”-Johan, “You are so MONEY”-
I hope the Mets choke again on the last day of the season.
I hope Carlos Gomez turns into a Superstar that steals 100 bases per year and catches everything inside and outside of the foul lines.
I hope the other 3 players, you know, those household names, became Superstar heroes and lead the Twins to the World Series.
Skol Twins!!! Keep on Rocking in the Free World!!! No Retreat, No Surrender!!!
Oh yeah, and I HOPE The Twins are kidding about not putting some kind of a roof on the new stadium.
Dear Bill Smith,
This just in, the Royal’s are willing to give up their #5 and #7 ranked prospects for Joe Nathan…quick, get on this before it is too late.
Killer
I think Bill has learned lesson…the Royals must through in their # pick this time or no deal.
Killer
I think Bill has learned lesson…the Royals must through in their #1 pick this time or no deal.
Trading Nathan next is the logical move. It would just be unwise to do so now. Wait until the Trade Deadline. Some contending team will be looking for a player like Nathan. Just think back to last year at the trade deadline and who Texas got for giving up Eric Gagne (who really wasn’t all that good). I truly believe that if we trade Nathan at the deadline, we could get more in return than we did for Santana- at least as far as talent we can see. There’s no telling if all or any of these KIDS will be something special. They’re too young to know for sure. In a Nathan trade, we might get prospects that are a little more concrete. The Twins will be fine at the closer position. They usually are- some body will be ready to do it. I think BS will be thinking along the same lines- at least I hope so.
Why trade Nathan? … This isn’t some fire sale … Twins’ coaches have said that especially with the kids in the rotation, we need him now more than ever … They should try to sign him to a 2 or 3 year deal until they get some kids in the minors who can take over … If he refuses to sign, then, yes, like Santana, trade him this summer … I don’t think we should concede 2008 before the first pitch is thrown …
Maybe the smell of smoke from the Dome hasn’t reached your place yet, mr reality?
Here is some interesting news about Nathan(from the Twins official site):
The indications from some baseball insiders was that if the Twins traded Santana then Nathan likely would be the next to go.
So does that mean that Nathan now heads to the trading block?
Not if the Twins coaching staff gets their wish.
Pitching coach Rick Anderson said that he and manager Ron Gardenhire have already approached Twins general manager Bill Smith about how important it is to keep Nathan around this season — and beyond.
I think he’s still a big part of what we’re doing,” Anderson said. “I don’t think we’re rebuilding. I think we have a chance to win right now. I think we’ve upgraded our offense and we have a lot of young talented arms. But a big part of us winning is going to be having Nathan out there to finish games out for us. He’s priceless.”
But while some may view this recent trade of Santana and the loss of other key free agents like Torii Hunter and Carlos Silva earlier this offseason as signaling the Twins are now in rebuilding mode, Nathan doesn’t exactly see it that way.
I know what I said, and that’s if the team is looking like it’s moving in one direction and not the direction that I’m looking to go, then it would be a less interesting place to stay,” Nathan said. “But even though we’ve lost a very key guy, I still feel like they’ve made some pretty good moves in this organization.
Showing they are willing to sign guys like Michael Cuddyer and Justin Morneau long term definitely helps. I still have a good feeling about this team.”
“I stay out of the contract talks and all the money talks, but you’ve got to believe that now we’ve traded Johan and Torii is gone and Silva is gone that there is something we can do with the freed up money to keep him around for awhile,” Anderson said of his closer. “In the end, it’s between the front office and Nathan, but it would sure be neat to have him around for a few more years.”
Nathan has repeatedly stated that he felt he left money on the table the last time he signed what turned out to be a three-year, $16 million contract. He said he knows what his market value is, and he will likely seek something near that. But Nathan hopes it doesn’t mean that he has to leave Minnesota to find it.
“I hope the two paths cross and we can come up with something that works for both of us,” Nathan said. “I hope I can continue to play in the city that I always said is a great city to play in with great fans, a great organization, a great staff and the players have always been great.”
I told you you’d be disappointed.
Heard on ESPN radio this is a good pickup for the Mets. Santana has the equivalent of the Triple Crown for pitchers and he’s only 28. Then why couldn’t they have given more the “four guys named who?”?
If the Twins could get Felix Pie and Sean Gallagher for Joe Nathan then now is a much better time to trade Nathan, but otherwise I totally understand where you are coming from.
3 World Series , 6 National East Pennants, 2 no-hitters , 4 Cy Young awards , 6 years of beating the Yankees in Interleague with a 28 to 8 record in favor of Mets (like a step son ..),for the next 6 years the Mets own the City.
All Yankee fans get to eat crow for 6 years ,guaranteed, put it in the book ,kid!!!!
roundabout,
If the Yanks wouldn’t have signed Santana, then
NO trade with Yankees.
Mets at the table alone.
Mets trade for and sign Santana.
How can you criticize BS, when there was NOBODY ELSE EXCEPT THE METS WHO WOULD FOLLOW THROUGH WITH THE TRADE, BY SIGNING SANTANA?
You criticize BS for not trading with the Yankees when no trade could have been completed with the Yankees due to the Yankees decision not to sign him.
Do you understand why that is nonsense?
Stop second-guessing just to get in lock-step with the idiots.
You know better than anyone about the lack of choices available to the Twins.
The idiots are the second-guessers who can’t understand that no other team except the Mets would trade for AND SIGN Santana.
All the other trade offers were crap, because the other teams couldn’t (wouldn’t?) sign him.
BS had no other possible trades available.
LENIII,
Your writing over the past few days has been nothing short of amazing.
Wonderful job and thank you!
Greg Giesen
BC, I have herd you say trade Nathan for Felix Pie and Sean Gallagher many times. Would you mind explaining (probably again) why you think these two players would be so good for the Twins versus other options?
TIA, TK(2)
My (outside chance) hope is that Seattle will trade for Nathan at the deadline. Adam Jones becoming a Twin is a good thing in my world. Other prospect would be good too.
Weird. Not a single quote from Bill Smith in today’s feature piece. Stand up guy, apparently. Is St. Peter the new spokesperson?
Sane,
I was defending the Yankees, not second-guessing Bill Smith.
I am just pointing out the Yanks made an offer in December, and the Twins didn’t respond. In fact, the Yanks dropped Kennedy and added Hughes because the Twins insisted.
The Yanks waited and then pulled the players off the table, partially because Pettitte came back and because the Twins BS was playing the Yanks against the Red Sox.
The Yanks and Steinbrenner were up front and also said money became an issue.
I wrote here several times the Yanks and Red Sox were not upping their offers and the Yanks were out..
Jeff,
Bill Smith is, of course, vacationing.. he’s had a long long off season.. Or Maybe La Velle can find him … for ya.. and question him in June about what went on during the winter trading/signing months.
Or maybe Bill Smith does not go out of his way to look for the spotlight. Or maybe he is hammering out the final details on the Nathan extension or signing Fogg. If they sign Nathan THERE BETTER NOT BE A FULL NO TRADE CLAUSE! Roundabout, from all indications Bill Smith is a workaholic, he was even in the office on New Years day.
According to the LEN3 story today “The Santana Trade-Lacking Leverage and Timing”:
36 hours after the Yankees talked trade with the Twins, they changed their minds about pursuing Santana because of contract length.
Is there any reason to believe they WOULDN’T have changed their minds while they were negotiating with Santana and he made his staggering salary demands?
The negotiations with the Mets lasted 74 hours.
I don’t see any way that the Yankees would have agreed to his demands, when they decided against it before actually hearing them.
The Mets trade was inevitable, and everyone should cut BS some slack.
Check Phil Miller article in Pioneer Press.
At the start, Santana told Greenberg and Smith that the Mets were his first choice.
He wanted NL Cy Young and Silver Slugger (now an incentive in his Mets contract)awards.
He might have demanded an even better contract from the Yankees in a time frame when the were reconsidering their stance on long-term pitcher’s contracts.
IMO, the Yankees would have rejected him within the 72-hours of December 3rd-5th and the Mets deal was inevitable.
Bill Smith got schooled, The Yanks original offer was rock solid for the future.Smith say the Hank Steinbrenner comments and took it personal and it was even discussed about filing tamper chargers, rather then just ignoring his comments and accepting the deal that would have been a 5 star deal for MN including a top Pitching prospect in Kennedy or Hughes, take your pick, plus 3 other prospects? I would have traded Johan for either Kennedy or Hughes straight up over the Mets deal, no excuse, he got played, he was scared, scared to deal him in Nashville, when he had the leverage, this deal set the Twins back 2-4 years!!!
I guess Terry Ryan wasn’t that bad, at least he understood the importance of pitching, he would never have traded the top 2 MN pitchers in Johan, and Garza and get really only Delmon in return..Gomez can’t hit a breaking ball, the two pitchers from the Mets are average, and the 19 year old pitcher will likely never make it to the bigs. We gave Johan away..
The Gardy comes into Twins saying kepping Johan would be a distraction???
Let Paul Molitor manage this team, and the Twins need to go out and get a proven G.M. I feel sorry for Mauer &Morneau.
“We knew we had to upgrade our offense” -bill smith .. lol let Hunter go and give Johan away and trade top pitching prospect in Garza, and get Young and Gomez?
F minus in year 1 Bill..
2008 Twins 75-89
2009 Twins 70-94
2010??maybe theres hope?
fire Bill Smith says:
February 3rd, 2008 at 12:30 pm
Bill Smith got schooled, The Yanks original offer was rock solid for the future.Smith say the Hank Steinbrenner comments and took it personal and it was even discussed about filing tamper chargers, rather then just ignoring his comments and accepting the deal that would have been a 5 star deal for MN including a top Pitching prospect in Kennedy or Hughes, take your pick, plus 3 other prospects? I would have traded Johan for either Kennedy or Hughes straight up over the Mets deal, no excuse, he got played, he was scared, scared to deal him in Nashville, when he had the leverage, this deal set the Twins back 2-4 years!!!
the stupid yanke offer was on for less then 36 hours and let me bet if he mad that deal you parbly would be b****ing that he should have wated and see if there was any thing eles
fire.
‘I would have traded….”
No you wouldn’t,because nobody would give an idiot like you that job or any job of resposibility.
He’s back.
fire Bill Smith = Craig
trade Craig to the Mets …
I don’t think that is Craig.
Craig is not an illiterate.
It’s easy to criticize Smith from a distance, and frankly it’s getting old. Cut the guy some slack. It was either trade Santana to the Mets or let him walk at the end of the season for two compensatory draft picks. Which would you rather have?
It’s easy to criticize Smith from a distance, and frankly it’s getting old. Cut the guy some slack. It was either trade Santana to the Mets or let him walk at the end of the season for two compensatory draft picks. Which would you rather have?
———————————
It’s easy to criticize Smith from a distance, or up close, from 2 feet or 2 miles.. The facts remain the facts, he gave Johan away.
The Yankee trade was on the table and he should have taken it, it made sense.Thats the fact, this trade made no sense, The Mets have a prospect named Martinez, the Mets 5 star top prospect, that is where the Mets trade should have started.It a joke, thats a fact, i would have rather kept Johan till the trade deadline, and i promise the two top compensory picks that the Twins would have gotten had he stayed w/ the Twins in 08 , will be more valuable then Gomez, who cant hit a slider, and 3 long shot pitching prospects.Smith got used badly, thats a fact sorry to be honest, every unbiased writer has said it. its fact!Smith is a amatuer.
In New York Bill Smith is the laughing stock of the city(and beyond) The Yankees offered the Twins 3 to 4 times more then the Mets gave for Johan, conspiracy? Maybe this trade should get investigated its that fishy….
Hughes or Kennedy? Take your pick
Cabera to play CF
Chamberlian and another prospect?
p.s for those that say the Yankees wouldn’t have signed Johan, you are cluless, Hank S. publically stated he wanted Johan, they would have signed him easily…
Bill Smith was scared in Nashville, scared to pull the deal, he botched this big time, just accept the facts!!!
Twins have a buphoon in Smith, McHale has botched the Wolves, and Chilly running the Vikings says it all, its no secret its hard to be a MN sports fan, it starts at the top.Moss,Hunter,KG,Johan..makes hard to love MN sports…
History would say AP,Morneau.Mauer, and Al Jefferson’s days are numbered…
We didn’t have a choice with Santana. Well, actually we did, but the alternative was even worse. If you’re a rational person, you have to wait (a couple years). Eventually, time will tell.
(This doesn’t apply to irrational people who just say everyone is stupid but them).
*you have to wait (a couple years) to see if this trade was a good/correct one.
Am I the only one who really wants to see Santana fall on his a** next season? I want him to have a miserable year and get booed off the field. I don’t want him to get hurt because I don’t want him to be able to blame it on that. I’ll really be rooting for him to just stink up the joint. What an egomaniacal punk.
Hughes/Kennedy, Cabrera, Chamberlain, + 1?
When was that offer ever on the table? The best the deal got was Hughes, Cabrera, Tabata, Jackson.
Before you go calling for the head of Smith at least get your facts straight.
I think it is funny that the Twins keep telling the fans that they are builing toward a championship team. What they are actually doing is obtaining bargain players and developing them until they can get some money for them. The organization is not interested in paying and keeping any more good players than are absolutely necessary. Once a player can demand alot of money, they are traded or given to free agency in order to increase profits. That is why the Twins took the cheapest offer for Santana, with alot of young low salary type players. It is most profitable for the Twins organization to operate as a farmy system type of organization than to actually compete for a championship season. If the Twins organization really wanted to keep Santana, they certainly could have paid him the salary he warranted, but they chose to take profits rather than a change for a championship. Remember, Pohlad is the richest owner in baseball. The roose is to make profits while telling fans that a championship is just around the corner. HA HA HA.
tgood.
How does trading players or giving them to FA increase profits?
