Johan has something to say….
Posted on February 4th, 2008 – 11:07 PMBy La Velle
I interviewed Johan Santana for a story that ran in Tuesday’s editions of the Star Tribune. It was his opportunity to give his side of the story of why he ended up in New York.
Santana, at the end of the interview, wanted to deliver a message to all Twins fans that was too long for our print edition. So in return for the phone call (and in thanks to everyone who made that phone call happen, here is Santana’s statement:
I would like to thank the Twins organization for the opportunity they gave me to be a part of this team during my time in Minnesota. I not only learned to be a better player but a better person as well. I really hope all the new young guys coming in follow in the same steps and can help be a part of something very special in Minnesota. I want to thank all my coaches, especially Rick Anderson and Ron Gardenhire, who helped me through these years. I wish you guys all the best and good luck in the future.
I want to thank all my teammates who shared all these special moments with me. I’m very proud of what we shared together and I have confidence you will continue to make the Twins fans proud.
Most importantly, I would like to thank from the bottom of my heart all the Twins fans who have supported me throughout my eight years in the Twin Cities. You guys were great to me and my family. My stay in Minnesota was a great experience.
We love you all and good luck in the future.
Believe it, Johan Santana.
Santana will be introduced by the Mets at a Wednesday news conference.
329 Responses to "Johan has something to say…."
I wish he would have addressed in some way the reasons why he wanted to leave Minnesota so badly if everything he says is true. Personally, I’m not going to dwell on it any longer. Thanks for the great memories, Johan. Now it’s on to 2008.
Well, with 150 million due to him over the next several years our former prodigal son can now get his suits neatly pressed every night! He’ll be missed, but there is no sense in dwelling on the past.
Give me a break! I was trying to find a photo that didn’t have him in a Twins uniform…
still hurts
Like breaking up with the prettiest girl back in high school, in a note
Hey, if you can get the big de dólares go for it. The Twins got some great years from Johan but things change.
Too bad KG never took the high road like Johan. He is setting the standard for class act.
Good luck to you Johan. Thank you for not staying in the AL to make Nick Punto look like an even worse hitter than he already is.
Johan leaves us with a note on a blog. Hunter left us with nothing (unless I missed it). At least Koskie left us with a full-page ad. It’s ok, my season tickets that helped pay their salaries have doubled in price in 6 years. Thanks guys!
Worst offseason ever.
Santana has no hard feelings against the Twins or Twins fans. He contacted me and wanted to tell his side of the story. I’m the only beat writer still around when he joined the Twins, so we have a good working relationship. I’m not going to blow him off. If it wasn’t for online, this would never get out.
I wish we had room to run his entire statement, but we didn’t. That’s why we decided to post it here. And, based on the hits this blog gets, it will be widely read.
Apparently I’ve struck a chord with you since you emailed me calling me out. Here’s my beef (and its not with you LEN3 as I let you know in my response): if Santana really cared, he wouldn’t be making a canned statement that would be so by the book that it didn’t matter if it made the story. To me, it looks like he doesn’t care, so whatever, don’t even try then. The last thing we need is more PR prattle.
I couldn’t find the article with the rest of the interview so I’m really only speaking to what’s on your blog right now. I hope the article proves me wrong.
Its like kicking rick anderson in the teeth, he took him off the scrap heap of Tampa bay and made him into the best pitcher around. Well Kevin Brown to you Johan, good luck in New York.
we probably wouldn’t signed him long term anyways, so im glad to see we at least got something for him. I long for the days when Kirby and Kent were here, but that just isnt how professional sports is now. Hopefully the players we got from the Mets will be great ambassodors and players.
I believe Johan. He can be both very grateful to the Twins organization, players, and fans AND be excited to move onto a higher stage and bigger contracts. Many people have that feeling. When I graduated from high school, for example, I was very grateful to all my old teachers and friends and have wonderful memories of my time, but I was excited to move onto a bigger, better thing.
I always resent when Minnesota is looked down on by the coasts, but let’s face it, a lot of people view New York as a much bigger, better thing than Minnesota.
So I believe Johan is being genuine in his thanks. The coaches helped make him who he is, his teammates competed with him and shared a lot of clubhouse time with him. The fans supported and loved him.
But he wanted to move onto New York, which he viewed as bigger, better things.
Thanks for getting this out there La Velle. It is nice too hear the gracious farewell.
Thanks LENIII.
I have no coment on Santana’s comments.
It is what it is…..
Remember…Johan’s is not as fluent in English as we are, so yes, he probably had assistance with the vocabulary and grammar.
Time to move on………
Great job Johan…
Btw guys, he doesn’t owe us anything, not even a response to leaving. He decided to say thanks, that is awesome.
Johan’s a dink
I hope he remembers how awesome the fans in Minnesota were the first time they start booing him over the Big Apple.
“Oh noes! Santana gave up a homerun in the bottom of the 8th in a 7-1 game! Why didn’t he just K that guy like he has the other 12 tonight?”
Absolutely correct. He doesn’t owe us anything. That’s a two way street, we don’t owe him anything either.
Good luck Johan, Time to move on. You’re a Met, not a Twin now. Just another player.
Thanks LEN III
I’m still curious, did the Twins actually up their offer to a 5 year extension for $100 million? I know there were some reports that were stating this, have you confirmed this at all LEN?
Thanks LEN111. I believe it.
He may be “just another player” now, but I sincerely hope that if he ever gets the HoF call he goes in with the team the found him and turned him into the dominant force he became.
I’d say the same for Hunter, but I don’t know if he’s HoF material.
Wow!
There are serious problems for a few folk. There isn’t ONE real baseball fan with a working understanding of the game that has hate for Johan Santana, especially the work he did for The Minnesota Twins Baseball Club. Twins’ fans, including myself (Camilo Pasquel(sp?) & Lenny Green was my first favorite player), desperately wanted him back this year and in to the future. But, … this did not work out. Move on- get yourself some help if needed. John Lennon might help (Love is the answer). I love the way Joe Mauer plays myself.
Some of you Twins apologists need to grow up and remember baseball is a business. The Twins couldn’t offer Johann what he was is worth. He doesn’t owe us anything. Thanks for the memories Johann and thanks to Wabble aka LEN for the story.
Does Sid hartman look like Leslie Neilson. Every time I see him I think of the Airplane movies or does he look like the Captain Lasard from Police Academy more hmmmm…..
Funny how he said he wanted to stay here and really tried to work out a new deal. If he really wanted to work it out here he would have. I also find it funny that he is happy to be on a team that will provide him a chance to win…I guess 4 division title in 6 yers isn’t getting a chance to win.
It just might be the cynic in me, but I have a really hard time believeing him right now.
Free agency will ruin Baseball. Thanks Curt Flood
Look-Hillary is tearing up.
I understand that the first gut reaction is to blame the player. But, who on this board would have turned down a contract like the Mets offered. Instead, blame the handful of owners who choose to play along with the agents in blowing away all rational salary expectations. And it isn’t just the Santana contract. The willingness of the Mariners to pay Silva $1 million a win is just as crazy. As for me, I am so ready to move on and start thinking about the upcoming season.
Can baseball survive if the fans have to pay $100 dollars a ticket on up
Johan did not have to issue a statement to the us, the fans, but he is a class act and he wanted us to know how appreicative he is. I for one am very grateful for having the opportunity to watch such a great person perform so well over the years and I will be proud to tell my children/grandchildren I watched Johan do his thing. Baseball is a business and this was a business decision.
Jimmy Bee: I would say no. One of the nice things about baseball is that it is still an event that is relatively inexpensive and you can bring the kids along. If we get into an NFL type situation, it is harder to fill the stadium and the fans, who are different, expect more entertainment. So, it could lead to the WWF-ing of MLB.
One of the statements I hate the most is that “Baseball is a business”. Yes I do agree with this statement but I don’t want to. Some people like football some people like basketball or Hockey. For me it is baseball. I think it is sad of what baseball has become. Free agency in the end will eventually ruin the game
JayTEE - I for one would have turned down the Mets money and stayed here. And I can say that with a straight face because I’ve turned down more money several times to stay with the company where I “made it”, and where I enjoy the work, my manager, co-workers, etc. So if I turn down more money while making what I do, I CERTAINLY would have turned it down if the choice was between $90M over four years or $150M over seven years. If I had $90M, additional money would have little meaning. I’d go if I cared more about money in the abstract than anything else, or I’d go if I didn’t want to be here.
Dennis: I understand your viewpoint and what I am about to write won’t change it, but Johan’s deal will mean a lot more that 7/150 because he will be playing in a huge market and will presumbably make millions more from endorsements,etc than he could of here. That said, I have posted numerous times, particularly in the context of Torii Hunter, that legacies are worth something and I would have foregone a few million to have a stadium where my grandkids could see my jersey retired and banner posted in the outfield. That won’t happen for Torii in LA.
JayTEE - Understood, and I agree - the endorsement opportunities will be much higher. I guess I just don’t see how much better your life can be when you add additional money beyond $90M. Especially when after those years, assuming good health, he can sign another contract for more years. It’s hard not to think that for a lot of people the goal of more money (especially after $90M) is pure ego, or a raw measurement of “success”, rather than anything real.
Baseball will not be ruined. everything will work out, it just might get a little worse before it gets a lot better. GO TWINS!
The fans will eventually take it in the rear and in the wallet. Only the loyalists will survive because everyone else will not like the price jump
Gomez is the FUTURE! Good for the optimistic outlook
“Remember…Johan’s is not as fluent in English as we are, so yes, he probably had assistance with the vocabulary and grammar.”
Hawk, his english is just fine… after reading some of the garbage in here I would aruge that he “is not as fluent in English as we are.”
From Joe C’s story:
“As for a veteran starting pitcher, the Twins remain open to signing one, though they remember how unsuccessful they were last year with Sidney Ponson and Ramon Ortiz.
Contrary to reports, they have little interest in Josh Fogg.”
I’m glad to hear that. I couldn’t find anything in Fogg’s stats or history to suggest he’d be a good signing.
How to Sale your Soul $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
and more $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Great piece LEN3.
He took the money and ran thinking he would have a better shot at winning a WS with NY.
As a Twins fan it was fun watching him while it lasted. An I firmly believe his number here will show to be way better then they will be with NY over the next 7 years.
Lets now see what Rick Anderson can do with “The Franchise’s” return and then lock him up.
IMO no new starting pitchers.
We have eight good candidates. (Liriano, Baker, Bonser, Slowey, Perkins, Blackburn, Humber and Duensing)
Sign Nathan long term and pay a little extra to have him forgo NTC.
Sign or trade for a good short term CF.
Pick one of the above SP you don’t like, and offer him to the Sox for Coco Crisp.
Dennis
I agree with you. Fogg would not be of help. I would rather take a chance on Eric Milton!
RyanW….I’ve seen some direct quotes from him and they are definitely Spanglish.
YIKES…Milton of Fogg UGH!!! Go with the Kids. It is a loss year. Sign Nathan to a 4 year deal at 12M/year if he wants more trade him.
No Crisp, No Patterson, No Lofton..use Gomez, Pridie, or even Nicky P if needed. Save the money an use it on the draft. Remember we have two extra #1’s from Hunter leaving so grab the guys and spend the money that way.
Has anyone seen Blackburns stats cause the guy stinks. Cool name but bad pitcher
BFE,
If it is a lost year, I agree with you.
Except sign Nathan, trade him later if circumstances dictate.
If you sign him first, his trade value goes up with no FA hanging around his neck (ie. low Santana trade value)
They should get pirate music like “yo ho, yo ho, a pirates life for me” when black beard I mean Blackburn runs onto the field
jimmybee,
You are wrong about Blackburn unless you know more than Baseball America.
He was their pick as #1 Twins prospect.
7-3 2.11 in AAA
3-1 3.08 in AA
Excellent in AFL.
All I have to say is the Twins better go get a few more people because the money is there and I think having Jason Pridie/Denard Span as your CF is a joke. They are both terrible. They shouldnt even be on a 25 man in the MLB. Gardy needs to go with an OF of Monroe/Young/Cuddy DH Kubel. Monroe is stronger in the field then Kubel by far in my opinion. (Kubel lost more balls and misplayed more balls last season than even Lew Ford) Twins need to go get a veteran pitcher and another bat. Tony Clark? Kenny Lofton? Somebody please. The money is there, spend it, dont pocket it mr pohlad and crew
People are funny. Our feelings get hurt like we got picked last for high school dodgeball and we lash out at one of our best players ever. Personally I’m glad we didn’t sign him for that much $ but especially for that many years. It’s a business and he made a business decision. I appreciate his thanks and the years he gave us and wish him the best of luck in New York. Let’s look forward to 2008.
And LENIII, what’s going on? Is my other email banned or something? It won’t let me post. What did I do?
I think they should play “Blackbird” by the Beatles when Blackburn comes out….
We were lucky to have been able to see this man pitch for so many years. He will be missed, for sure.
And LaVelle…I couldn’t help but make that comment about the suit in the first pic you had up there. It was just too perfect!
Patrick,
Relax, we are all “cowboys” sometimes.
Jimmy - If they don’t spend more money it won’t be because Carl wants to pocket it, but rather because BS doesn’t see anyone he wants. It’s pointless to spend money for the sake of spending it.
BFE - This is not yet a lost year until at least a few games have been played. I want Lofton. I’d say Coco Crisp, but I don’t see them going for him with Gomez coming up.
Long shot hope - Package some young guys for Joe Blanton.
Blackburn
Team League W L ERA G GS CG SHO SV IP H R ER HR BB SO GO/AO AVG
NBR EAS 3 1 3.08 8 7 0 0 0 38.0 36 21 13 1 7 18 1.59 .240
ROC INT 7 3 2.11 17 17 3 2 0 110.2 96 32 26 7 12 57 1.53 .232
Minors 10 4 2.36 25 24 3 2 0 148.2 132 53 39 8 19 75 1.54 .234
Sane….picking up from yesterday….
Gomez hit .282 from June 2nd until he got hurt on July 4th. He started off slow in May but looked much better after getting some big league ABs.
Interesting split….
Gomez hit only .130 (9/69)with 2 strikes and hit .357 (20/56) with less than 2 strikes.
Hunter his only .199 (49/246)with 2 strikes.
I still think Gomez, who has played 58 major league games, is just as or more ready for the bigs as Pridie, who has zero. Let the kid play….he’s ready.
JIMMY,
The Twins should spend their money next year when they will get more bang for the buck.
Spending this year just to soothe the public is a waste of resources.
Hawk,
Gomez’s low average with 2-strikes is directly related to being breaking-ball challenged.
Hmmm…. I just wish when people talked about sports contracts, they didn’t act like that money went straight to the player. First and foremost, your agent has to be paid. So that’s 10%. Then the government wants their cut so that’s 35% of the 90%. And you’re not getting all of your money at once: you’re getting it over 7 years so you lose money to inflation… probably 10% on average. So you’re left with about 50 percent of your contract and you haven’t spent any of it yet.
Hey, it’s still a lot of money, but getting a contract for X dollars is not the same as, “if I had X dollars”.
Hawk,
Hunter also.
Give Gomez half a year to a year in AAA, depending on how he develops. It will be better for his long term value.
Sane-
It’s not the cowboy thing. I get that all the time. No, it will let me submit my comment but then once the screen refreshes my comment isn’t there. Then I changed email address and it let me post. I’m not getting worked up or anything. Just curious.
Shawn-
That’s hilarious. It’s like the antithesis of “Wild Thing”. That’s probably the least intimidating song for a player that I’ve ever heard of.
Mat - I’m totally taking that into account. It doesn’t change the point that unless you’re Britney Spears or someone $93M over four years doesn’t lead to lean times. It puts you in rarefied air shared by VERY few human beings on this planet. And at that point, IMHO, a person should be thinking about ANYTHING other than money.
Patrick,
That is an interesting problem that I haven’t experienced yet.
Minnesota AL 25 Min MLB 0-2 WL 7.71 ERA 6 K 0 0 0 3 0 11.2 19 12 10 2 2 8 0 0 14.66 1.54 1.54 6.17 1.80 –
BLACKBURN
W L ERA G GS CG SHO SV SVO IP H R ER HR BB SO
2007 0 2 7.71 6 0 0 0 0 1 11.2 19 12 10 2 2 8
Career 0 2 7.71 6 0 0 0 0 1 11.2 19 12 10 2 2 8
BLACKBURN
Anybody know the league BA with 2 strikes?
I know..you heard it before…..Hunter was breaking-ball challenged as well and so is Morneau at .186 with 2 strikes.
Dennis,
Wouldn’t you like to take $150 million of the Mets money and redirect it to curing cancer, feeding the hungry or improving the human condition?
Or would you rather the Mets made the decision on how to spend the money?
Nice article in the strib today about how there are no hard feelings for Santana towards the Twins. What? How could there be? He used the Twins to
get the richest contract ever paid to a pitcher. He was never going to sign with the Twins. Never. He knew it and his agent knew it. They were going
for historic money to please themselves and the players union.
How do you interview him and not take him to task about how he handled things and get him to acknowledge that he didn’t want to play for the Twins. Nice reporting.
I am sick of it.
I think it would be best for Gomez to get a little more time in AAA. I think it would be best for my well being that he starts the season in the Bigs. If we sign Corey Patterson I’ll throw up in my mouth. I don’t know how much it would help but two weeks with Carew in March definitely wouldn’t hurt. Him, Young, and Monroe should do nothing but study w/Rod in ST.
What, are we supposed to feel sorry for Johan? In the end it’s all about the money anyway. There hasn’t been any loyalty in baseball since Harmon played.
Jimmy bee,
If you want to write off Blackburn based on his first few games in MLB, be my guest.
But, how would you pitch if you were so tight that you couldn’t pull a needle out of your -ss with a tractor?
Try him again when he is more accustomed to pitching in the show.
Santana is going to cure Cancer with his money. YEEEEEEAAAAAh sure. I actually own the Golden Gate Bridge as well as the Brooklyn Bridge and I am tired of owning both would someone like to buy one of them
Sane - You are TOTALLY correct. I would do that and you would do that. But how many others would? Will Johan? If I’m wrong I apologize ahead of time, but I don’t think that’s what he’s going to do with his extra money.
I’ve fantasized a couple of times about being in that position. If I were a Twin I’d go in and talk to the Pohlads personally. I’d propose a deal where I get a reasonable amount of money for myself, and have the remainder go into a charitable trust or something. There would probably be major tax benefits for the team. I wonder if skinflint Carl would pay extra if it went to charity rather than to me the player….
Dennis — The year is a loss year unless you truly believe we can compete to get to the WS this year with some of the crap that is left out there.
No matter how much money they spend this year on what is left it won’t get us to compete fully against the Tigers, RedSox, Yanks, Angels and now Seattle if they get Bedard.
It is a wiser investment to use that money on the draft this year and/or save it towards next year FA crop which isn’t that outstanding.
If they are going to spend the money sign Nathan
An like Sane — I believe said get the NTC out of there even if it costs you a little bit.
Jimmy Bee — Are you seriously going off 6 games at the end of last year on if Blackburn will be a player or not? I would at least like to see what the kid can do in ST prior to judging him.
Dennis,
I was actually talking more about you turning down big money than I was about Johan.
I always liked Santana and I want to like him now but I have a hard time. It annoys me that his agent in the teleconfernce said that the Mets where Santana’s first choice after the Twins yet in the article he says he had no team in mind. Maybe he and his agent need to talk and get their story straight. And he has an obligation to others after him?? Yeah, an obligation to ruin baseball in my mind. I wish him luck in NY but after his first loss where he is hounded by the NY media I hope he remembers a little Minnesota loving goes a longer way than an extra $10 million dollars.
thanks for posting this longer version La Velle…I enjoy your stories in the Trib…but appreciate reading the other odds and ends here.
If you are going to list stats list all of them, remember don’t cherry pick stats that you like. I admit he had some good minor league stats but he bit in the show. We shall see, wee shall see
Sane - The same principles apply, though. As I’ve done with my actual job, I wouldn’t go somewhere else just for extra money unless I felt the need to get away from where I’m at (as long as I have enough to be comfortable). If I had been in Johan’s place I truly would have gone in and negotiated a charitable setup. I’d push Carl for every cent I could, and take it public. Then I’d get publicity for the charities of my choice on top of it all. Who knows, maybe an example like that would inspire others to give as well.
What I wouldn’t do is leave a setup I enjoyed just to get additional money for myself, or to set a record for all time most salary for a pitcher.
Dennis,
I agree, happiness ahead of money.
Maybe Johan thinks he is getting both.
Anyway, although we don’t know what Johan will do with the money, I am pretty sure what the Mets would have done with it - and its not charity work.
Dennis - I’ve turned down more money to stay in a position i’ve liked as well but lets get serious… you can’t compare$20,000 - 30,000 to 60 million plus.
Also what makes you believe Santana loved it here so much? If i remember correctly he seemed to voice his disdain for the “future” mentality that the Twins have last year when they traded Castilo.
It just makes me laugh that everyone gets so offended if they dare leave Minnesota…there is life outside this state people!
Most people, when they get what they want, don’t have hard feelings.
For example:
“SBG has no hard feelings over neighbor’s decision to come over and clean out cat litter boxes for a year, free of charge.”
Ryan is correct. We have no idea on what Santana truly thought about Minnesota an his actual reason for leaving. The only thing we do know is that he pushed the Mets to given him a record breaking deal which signals he was all about the money. If that wasn’t the case and he truly felt that NY was where he wanted to be. He could have settled in NY for 120M and made up the rest on endorsements.
Dennis — on you idea of charity — great one but none of us actually no what these players do with all their money. I remember reading somewhere that Johan had purchased fire trucks for his town in Venzuela. But who knows what else he does or doesn’t do.
Also in my opinion the best forms of charity are ones that are done in private.
jimmybee — you are correct he had a lousy start in the majors last year. But I still wouldn’t wipe out two great years in the minors an base it on 6 starts in the bigs. Hopefully he turns it on because we all know the Twins need it.
Baker,Boof,Slowey,Liriano,Humber
Ryan if you would have read LENIII article, Johan himself said he wanted to stay here.
As I have said for a couple years now with all sports, the players who jump for the money more often than not find things aren’t always greener on the other side. Look at the guy who started this whole mess, Zito. He was an absolute joke last year. But hey, he has his money so what does he care how far his reputation has fallen.
I also believe Johan will desperately miss Rick Anderson. The guy is the best pitching coach in the league.
Dennis,
When I was in college, $30,000/yr seemed like a reasonable living wage. So I thought that, whatever I made, I’d just keep $30,000 and then donate the rest to charity. Well…. now I’m in my 30’s, living in New York, and you can still be poor living on six figures here. So I donate some to charity but not nearly the amount that I resolved I would when the money was all hypothetical.
You may want to think about that.
jimmy bee…look at Johan’s first year stats…..pretty ugly….huh?
Ok, the only thing Johan and Zito have in common is that they both make inordinate amounts of money. Otherwise, they’re apples and oranges. You can’t compare them. I wish people would come down from their high horses and stop ripping on Johan for making a sensible decision. Some of you talk like an extra 20 million is something to scoff at. I also love when people compare themselves to athletes and say they’d do differently. You have no idea what it’s like to be in that situation so you can’t say with any certainty what you’d do and what you wouldn’t do. There’s no context for you.
Hawk if I went by minor league stats then look at Boofs numbers. Boof actually has a better minor league era then Blackburn so are you trying to say that he will be a great pitcher but not as great as the amazing “BOOF”
Mat - Believe me, I have thought about that. But you think about this: if Johan has to worry about the difference between $93M over 4 years and $150M over 7 years because the cost of living might go up, then where will the rest of us be??? You’re asking for perspective, but there’s no perspective where $93M over the next four years is going to be short in any way.
jimmybee,
If the Twins like him (Blackburn) and Baseball America likes him and you think he stinks, I will have to make my own decision.
Patrick - Of course there’s a context for what I’m saying. The context is that I was born very poor, and was poor for several years once I entered the workforce. In the past three years I’ve finally “succeeded”, which in my case means $125K per year (which I would NEVER say if I weren’t just a faceless name on a blog). I have had several opportunities to go to other jobs and make more, but I don’t even listen to the offers because I like my situation here and feel a sense of loyalty to my company (reciprocated by them). Of course I can make an extrapolation to someone making $13.5M per year who then gets an offer of an additional $80M for four years, but leaves for $150M for 7 years. If on my relatively low salary I have enough so I can value my situation more than additional money, how is it possible that someone couldn’t value $93M over 4 years as so much that his situation becomes more important.
HOW MUCH MONEY DO YOU NEED IN LIFE???
I suspect people don’t understand this concept because at heart they have a value system that values money (no matter how much money) higher than anything else.
Sane, we shall see, we shall see. His stats are not even as good as Boofs were in the minors
Just to clarify - I’m not asking anyone else to share my value system. But I have the right to have an opinion about someone else’s value system.
It should surprise no one that the Twins will finish in last place in the Central Division. Detroit, Cleveland, Chicago, and Kansas City are very solid organizations that have spent money to improve themselves. Minnesota should be given credit for being an outstanding training and development organization for young players. Many of them have the opportunity to go on to other teams and make a great deal of money. Kansas City could benefit from some of the Twins players in 2008 and 2009. I think the Twins should trade Nathan and Rincon to the Royals for some more minor league prospects like a center fielder and second baseman.
Boofs minor league ERA 3.63
Blackburns minor league ERA 3.68
Sid Ponsons Minor league ERA 3.83
He will fit somewhere right in between them what do you think
jimmy bee…I think everyone is trying to say, “Don’t read too much into Blackburn’s stats last year. His number of innings pitched is too low to indicate the future.” That’s all.
Dennis I actually could make more $ if I left where I work But I am happy here and that is all that matters to me
tom, what player besides David Ortiz has really made that big an impact with his new team after he left the Twins?
Koskie, Jones, Guardado, Hawkins, Guzman have had average careers since they left the Twins. Nothing that justifies the free agent money they got. Johan will definately change that trend, and Hunter maybe.
jimmybee,
I think Blackburn’s MLB stats after a year or two will make his minor league stats meaningless.
and if he is better than Ponson, (a 17-game winner in 2003 and who won 29 games in his first 3 years in MLB), he does not stink.
Which of the other Twins SP’s is on pace to win 29 games in their first 3 MLB years?
Jimmy - We’re far from the only ones. For some reason it seems like the more a person makes the more he thinks he has to make, and the less he values other things. I know, I know, that’s a gross generalization, but there’s truth in it.
Dennis,
I agree with you to a point. after a certain point money is only a status symbol.
But With the Tigers upping their roster, and Cleveland getting better…
The Twins not resigning Hunter, and not bringing anyone in.
Trading away their #3 starter for an outfielder, and not replacing that 3rd starter, then his best friend on the team is a FA, and signs in Seattle…
HE was close to Castillo who was basically given away to the Mets for a bag of used balls (Butera most likely will never make it out of AA).
Maybe just maybe the difference between 90 million year, and 90 million anywhere is that while he has to say he respects the organization… he really sees them as the cheap SOBs that they are, and knew that he had a chance to get out of here, go to a place where he could make obscene amounts of money, be famous, and go to a place where they are not afraid to spend money to make the team win.
Do you think that could have had anything to do with it?
JPJ…you are correct. Most of the players who left, fell flat. I believe most had been successful with the Twins because of how the Twins used them, i.e. Hawkins.
Sane you forgot about our ace Boof
Well stated case BC.
jimmy bee….Johan’s minor league era was 4.78. Maybe Boof and Blackburn will both have better production than Santana. lol
BC, I’ve said time and time again…if Santana truly understands that the Twins have to do what’s most important for the team, he wouldn’t be upset with the Castillo trade.
It would have done nothing but hurt the team to keep Castillo around. They were not going to make the playoffs, and he wasn’t even going to be worth draft picks.
At least by trading him when they did, the Twins had some measure of control as to who they got back.
There’s a slim chance that either player goes anywhere in the minors, but it’s better than no chance.
Hunter was at least worth draft picks. But he should’ve also been dealt (since he had made it abundantly clear he wanted his payday no matter where it came from).
And why no love for Nick Blackburn from some people? Aside from his stats that is perhaps the coolest name one can have.
Seriously, that’s Secret Agent calibur.
Yeah!!! Your right T!!! I am going to run out and get a Blackburn Jersey cause his nam is cool
Ryan if you would have read LENIII article, Johan himself said he wanted to stay here.
So did Torii. He also said he’d like to play for a contender. And that he’d like to play in Kansas City because of the grass. Or Texas because it was home, or Chicago because he like Ozzie (or something like that).
So then he goes to LAA, tells the media “I didn’t expect it…they blew me away!” and then later that week says he had always seen himself in LAA.
It’s called telling the people what they want to here. The Twins came out and said they wanted to keep Johan and everybody calls them out as hypocrites…Johan’s doing the same thing and we’re supposed to take his word for it?
jb, you didn’t get my post.
His name is awesome on top of his stats.
jimmybee,
Bonser has won 15 games in two years.
He is on pace for 22-23 in 3 years.
Scott Baker has 17 wins in three years
Ponson had 29.
If Blackburn can match Ponson, he’ll be ahead of Boof, Baker and the Candlestick maker.
johan is the man.
good luck, mr. santana.
as a player in free agency, you also owe it to your fellow players/co-workers/union members to get the a deal that will, if not push the market upwards, at least not lower it.
the twins never made an offer to johan that wouldn’t have lowered the market for cy young caliber starters.
the guy was classy and gave it his all every time he stepped on the field. was a good teammate, too, and great with fans.
anyone criticizing mr. santana here or elsewhere for doing right by himself and his fellow players, and after doing so well for the team most of us here root for…. well, anyone still ripping the guy is ignorant, nuts, absurd, etc…
T,
You are right.
Who tells their current employer
“I want out, get me the h-ll out of here!”,
BEFORE HE LINES UP HIS NEXT JOB?
Castillo was a B level guy so we would have gotten two picks for him, they would have been later picks.
Those two picks would have been better than what we got.
More importantly, if we didn’t have a chance to compete for a title…
Why trade Castillo, and keep Silva and Hunter????
This team made some terrible mistakes over the last 18 months, and now we as fans are going to sit and watch a team that is fun, but 4th place. 68 wins, maybe we tie with KC, maybe we end up in 3rd if we play way over our heads, but we are back to the days before the playoff run… and it’s time to start over.
T- what is your feeling on Nathan?
JayTEE,
Who in their right mind would turn down a 4 year 80 MILLION DOLLAR contract!
Johan is a dink and everyone who believes he is “really a good guy” are dinks as well.
He is a greedy SOB and I am glad he is gone!
I can’t call the Twins cheap. The only way they didn’t match other offers was in the number of years. They offered Torii $15M a year, same as Chicago and KC. Twins offered Johan $20M/year. I could see offering Johan the six or seven year deal he wanted, but not Hunter. Now both are set for life. Torii can blow out his ankle and never play again and he’ll get his $90 million.
dink?
I haven’t heard that word in 15 years,
that’s awesome…
I doubt he cares what you think, but then again since I hold no ill will against him I must be a dink too.
Thank you, that one actually made me laugh.
JPJ
THEY DO THAT ON PURPOSE to make people think that they are really trying!
If you know someone wants 5 years, and you offer 4… it makes you look like you tried, but couldn’t do it. So you give them the money they want knowing they won’t take it because of the length.
Then if you agree that a 5 deal is right, they low ball the player saying this is all we can afford, but we can give you the 5 years.
Wow, now I understand why the Twins have a psychologist working with their marketing team. The guy is the most valuable asset to the team because people are buying this junk.
rapid,
Thanks for the props!
Rapid the kind of guy that turns down 4 years and 80 million is the kind of guy that can get 7 years and 150 million.
Which is a rare kind of guy, and one that got his cash, and his years, and will have a chance to win a Cy Young in the NL, and a better shot at a World Series.
So dink on…
No, I think they way the got burned on the Joe Mays contract affects the way they do business. Torii was too old to give him a seven year deal. If Torii was so sure he could play for seven years, why not sign a three or four year deal? Think how much MORE money he could get when he’s a free agent again. Salaries aren’t going to go DOWN in the future, are they? No, players want the guaranteed money, whether they can play out their contracts or not. That’s the only thing I think is approaching dihonesty.
Torii wanted a 5 year deal The twins offered 4.
Torri got 5
Santana wanted a 7 year deal, and got 6 plus an option. We countered with a 4 year deal.
Silva wanted a 4 year deal, we offered a 3 year deal.
Funny, they all got what they wanted and more money than they were asking for from us.
Yet it’s all the fault of the players?
jpj.
I will agree with you on one thing.
The Joe Mays deal is the reason that the Twins are the way that they are, but that’s not Torii, Johan, or Silva’s fault is it?
I tried but I couldn’t scounge up enough a_ _ cash and penny’s to get Santana signed because I am cheap. Where did Smithers go
Don’t let this blog be taken over by the dinks.
BC, They should have given Carlos his four years. Silva will be another Kevin Tapani, who won alot of games for alot of teams after the Twins thought he was done.
Santana is young enough to have given him the seven years. But it should have come with no no-trade clause.
For all of you criticizing Johan, you are hypocrites. You cannot honestly sit behind your desk or wherever you work and say you would not leave if you were offered significantly more money to work elsewhere. Why must athletes all be held to a loyalty factor when the rest of us working people jump ship the first time we receive an offer for a pay increase. To us baseball is entertainment…to the athletes it is their job and how they support their families. Best of luck to you Johan and thanks for your services to the Twins Nation.
JPJ,
Not sure I agree or disagree on that, but I can tell you when you trade your ace, and number 3 starter, and your number 2 starter, and face of the franchise leave in Free agency…
The team should have done something sooner to avoid this from happening…
Half jokingly I wonder since we are paying for the stadium, can we go after Terry Ryan for the money he’s made at his job over the last 18 months because he helped defraud the tax payers!
BC, still, why not take the three years? Salaries go up every year, right? Tell me, what is the reason for demanding a long-term contract? Kirby was the first to get a $3M/year contract. By the end of the contract, he was WAY behind the rest of the other top players. Why lock yourself in when the market is only going up? It’s all about still getting payed even if you can’t play.
In march of 2007, nobody wanted Silva on the team let alone in the rotation. Now we are going to suck cause hes not around?
BC - I know that everyone is completely misinterpreting what I’ve been saying. I’m not ripping Johan, and I’m not saying he went to NY solely for the money. I don’t know why he went to NY and you don’t know why either. All those things you mention may or may not have played a part.
What I AM saying is that it looks to me, from all I’ve read, that the money was a big part of the decision. I don’t know that, of course, and none of us do. What I AM saying is that if money was indeed the reason, THEN I lose respect for Johan. And I’m explaining why going solely for the money in a case like that represents what I consider a screwed up value system.
I truly haven’t decided anything about Johan’s motives. The whole thing is more a philosophical argument against the point that he should “get his”, as though that’s the only valid goal.
JA, there were alot of fools in March 2007.
JAD - For the fourth time in three days: I have had numerous opportunities to leave my job for more money, and I don’t even listen to the pitches. I like my job, I like my co-workers, I like my manager, I feel loyalty to my company (and they reciprocate it). I value more than money. Jimmy Bee said exactly the same thing.
We are not hypocrites because we are doing EXACTLY what we are talking about. And in our case it doesn’t come from a worst case position of $93M, where the additional money won’t improve our lifestyle.
You’ve completely proven my point, which is that there are too many people with a value system where money is the ONLY determinant of value and happiness. You say you’d jump ship the first time you receive an offer for more money, and you talk as if you assume everyone would do that. You’re totally free to have that value system, and I’m totally free to see it as philosophically bankrupt.
I would have to say that I like the idea of getting a Veteran pitcher or 2 to stableize the rotation I do not want Fogg to be one of the choices. Livan would be one good choice
Yeah I like the idea of getting another pitcher Freddy Garcia is hurt and Livan Hernandez would be good. We might be able to get Paul Byrd
La Velle, how many hits does your blog typically get since not everyone leaves a comment.
The song playing for Blackburn should be “Black” by Pearl Jam to remind us Johan is no longer here.
Mr. Santana said, “I really hope all the new young guys coming in follow in the same steps and can help be a part of something very special in Minnesota.” Does this mean he wants future players to also go on to bigger salaries like him?
What difference should it make to a player what the friggin’ union thinks of his salary? Is he concerned about bad union pr if he takes a more reasonable offer to please the fans? Which is worse to have bad pr with, the union or the fans?
dink dink dink all day long dink dink dink while I sing this song
Great finally two more entries about baseball and not philosphy on if we were offered 90M would we take it or move somewhere else and take 150M.
Time to move on guys but please not with Fogg, Garcia or Hernandez.
If they can make a trade for Blanton as I think “Dennis” suggested earlier prior to the value tirade. That would be huge.
Does anyone know if Koskie got a minor league invite yet?
There was an article on ESPN.com not to long ago about Koskie and how he can’t even do normal everyday things without having dizziness, nausea, etc. I bet it will be a while before he is offered a contract.
Blanton would be huge. Why don’t we sift through what Oakland has in the way of prospects and pitchers they seem to have and endless supply of pitchers year in and year out
Dennis-
This is a little late, but of course you’re entitled to an opinion regarding other people’s value systems. But so am I. Respectfully, I think we’ll have to agree to disagree.
BC
Are you sure that Castillo would have been a type B Free Agent? I’m not so sure of that. Plus a type B only gets you one draft pick now, doesn’t he?
To bad about losing Castillo he was awesome here and definitely one of my favorite players. Why don’t we bring back Tyner and lose Punto
Jama, I thought you got sandwhich picks between the 2nd and 3rd rounds?
I could be wrong. It’s hard to know everything about everything and believe me I’ve been called a know it all enough to know I don’t know everything.
But yes Castillo was a free agent after his time with the Mets, and he was on the list as a type B free agent, then they resigned him.
JPJ-
athletes want long term extensions because in their profession the risk for career ending injury (and loss of livliehood) is much greater than in most other professions. So take away the money aspect of Santana’s deal and I don’t see how anybody can fault him for wanting more years on his contract. It’s job security.
Let’s talk about baseball.
How many people think Gomez should be our starting CF to start the season? How many people think Baker is our opening day starter? When does Liriano come back?
Gomez
Mauer
Young
Morneau
Cuddy
Kubel
Lamb
Harris
Everett
BC Why dont we get rid of Punto and bring back Tyner
Is it Rapid or Rabid??
Patrick I like the line up but hate the pitching staff. Also loooooose Cue Ball
If Gomez can beat out Span or Pridie then I say he is the guy. I really don’t agree with signing an aging wonder like Lofton.
As for opening day starter I would have to go with Baker or Boof right now. All will depend on ST and how they and everyone else does.
Gomez
Casilla
Mauer
Young
Morneau
Cuddyer
Lamb
Kubel
Everett/Harris
OUR PITCHING STAFF IS PATHETIC AT BEST
Lavelle Thanks for the good work you do and thanks for posting what Johan said. The twins offered him good money but the market says he should have got more I dont blame him I just wish he didnt put the twins in such a box maybe if we offered johan the 93 million last spring training he might still be here. I really like your info lavelle living down here in fort myers i dont get a lot of twins news so i enjoy reading your twins coverage.
Mr Pohlad if you are reading this why did you not sign these players to contracts sooner and not delay them and pretend to make offers when they are offers you know they won’t accept just to make yourself look good and have a good image in the public eye
I am cheaaaaap and I am a stingy miser and your lucky you got what you have currently. Selig said I couldn’t contract the team and I lost millions and also I could have had a few more theater plays. Besides which you have Blackburn what else do you need. “Smithers, release the hounds”!!!!
Do not forget that Blackburn was 4-0 with a 1.64 ERA, .68 WHIP and a 20/2 K to BB ratio in the Arizona Fall League. Including a six inning, 5 hit, one run perfomance in the Championship Game…
He was one of the most impressive players in the AFL this year.
So what do people think Perkins will do this year. At one point he was highly rated an now seems to get hurt and be relagated to the bullpen.
LEN3 — how about a ranking of all the pitching in the twins system/majors? Seems like they still are overloaded in pitching and could use some bats especially in the infield.
BASEBALL AMERICAS TOP 30 PROSPECTS
1. Joba Chamberlain, RHP
2. Austin Jackson, OF
3. Jose Tabata, OF
4. Ian Kennedy, RHP
5. Alan Horne, RHP
6. Jesus Montero, C
7. Jeff Marquez, RHP
8. Brett Gardner, OF
9. Ross Ohlendorf, RHP
10. Andrew Brackman, RHP
11. Mark Melancon, RHP
12. Humberto Sanchez, RHP
13. Dellin Betances, RHP
14. Dan McCutchen, RHP
15. Kevin Whelan, RHP
16. Carmen Angelini, SS
17. George Kontos, RHP
18. Ivan Nova, RHP
19. Collin Curtis, OF
20. Jairo Heredia, RHP
21. Juan Miranda, 1B
22. Austin Romine, C
23. Francisco Cervelli, C
24. Dave Robertson, RHP
25. Mike Dunn, LHP
26. J.B. Cox, RHP
27. Mitch Hilligoss, INF
28. Scott Patterson, RHP
29. Edwar Ramirez, RHP
30. Zach McAllister, RHP
Colon is still availabale and word is he has pitched well in winter ball. Is the elbow injury behind him? He might be affordable and a veteran presence with the young staff. I’d ratther take a flier on Colon than Hernandez or Fogg if we bring in any FA pitchers.
A healthy Colon would be a good acquisition but a bench warmer and hurt Colon is not worth 2 dead flies. I would give him a very thorough physical just to see if there is anything left in the tank. Colon might be finished with baseball.
I love how everyone talks/posts like they actually have a say in what goes on in the Twins organization. I realize everyone is just expressing their opinion…I just think its funny how everyone says “I would have signed Santana…” or “I would trade for Player X”, what are you going to sign them to your son’s T-ball team or trade Santana to your Beer League Slow Pitch Softball?
dink dink dink
who else thinks the Common Man is the best sports mind in Minnesota?
Mr Pohlad -
Lets keep the discussion to baseball related topics and not your healthy or hurt colon with dead flies in it.
Thanks,
Captain of the Dinks
Rapid- Bartolo Colon
I want a strong colon not a weak and always hurt colon that’s not worth 2 dead flies
I want a colon that the fans can feel. Can you feel my colon and thats the one I want
Nice of Johan to consider to some time getting around to thanking Gardy………my opinion of Johan is very low right now. He’s talked to Torii Hunter but none of the current Twins? He held the Twins hostage, but now says he never did. That the Twins were simply reminded that the no-trade could be used…..right, thats not a threat at all. Bye Johan, you made Torii look classy. Go Twins Go!
Thought this was an interesting statement buried in a season preview article at MLB.com:
“Don’t underestimate the Twins’ bunker mentality. Plenty of them were a little put off that Santana thumbed his nose at a very healthy offer (four years for $80 million) to stay. They’re very enthusiastic about their chances if Nathan — one of the loudest cheerleaders — hangs around.”
Thanks La Velle and Johan.
i think we need to keep nathan because we have one of the best ballpens if we lose nathan the ballpen becaumes a heck of a lote weaker
JT - Very interesting. I think closers are overrated, but I also think in this case Nathan would be well worth signing.
I can be talked into Nathan for the right price. It would be nice if we could keep the AJ haul intact a few more years and see if these boys can’t make that trade look even better in another three years than it looks today.
If you love your “job”, it’s a no-brainer to stay. Johan’s “job” was to bust his -ss to help his team maybe get to the division lead (or in this case be several games out of first). Now he’s moved to the default NL, and quite possibly, world series title in 2008, and achieved his market value as the best pitcher in baseball.
I just don’t understand what the naysayers expected him to do??!!
adam-you say you are insulted by the way the NY’S look down on us.Who really should not care.All my friends that grew up in NY that live here now say we have it all over NY.For some reason Minnesotan have always had a inferiority complex about how we are perceived on the east coast
Those who think that Johan is not being sincere with his statement to LEN3,will never think otherwords.LEN3 has known him for 8 years.He probably has a better take on whether he is being sincere than we do
C’mon Dennis,
Either you’re throwing Johan under the bus or you aren’t. Three days ago, you said, “It’s a big complex web of things. Any philosophy or value system that looks primarily at money as the “prime directive” is a value system that is screwed up. It’s my judgment after careful consideration that there’s a good chance that Santana has, to a large degree, that sort of screwed up value system.”
Sure, you’re not saying you know as an epistemological truth what Johan is thinking, but you’re inferring it pretty strongly. You think that people who only think about money is bad. Fine. Great. I think everyone agrees with you on that. But any armchair psycho-analysis based off of the simple fact that the best pitcher in baseball asked for, and received (with no nastiness, I might add) to be paid like the best pitcher in baseball is just a waste of bandwidth.
The Owners Screwed the Players for 100 years by my count the players still have 75 to go. - Jim Bouton.
Hey, Johan. “Believe it” I did your mom last night, you greedy punk.
oh yes, I did just say that.
I don’t care if johan is sincere or not … He made his choice: all the $$$ to leave the Twins … so did Torri … both are great players, but I’ve already gotten over them …
Both Hunter and Santana only cared about the money. Not the twins nor its fans and those that think otherwise are fools.
Then I am a fool because I believe they did care… I saw what they did over the years, but it comes down to money in the end, and a chance to win a championship, and Carl Pohlad will never flip the bill to make this team GREAT.
So when you say that they never cared about the fans or the team, and call me a fool for disagreeing with you. I will be your fool…
Because you come across as a bitter homer that if put in the same situation 99% of us would do the same thing for either money, or a better chance to win.
The Twins would know that these guys wanted in Hunter’s case 5 years and 15 million per… The twins went public offering 4 years at 15 so that they looked good, though they knew there was a 90% chance he wouldn’t sign it. He wanted 5 years… 4 other teams offered him 5 years, and then the Angels offered him more than he was asking for. So to blame him for that decision is so lopsided, and childish it’s not even funny.
And Silva wanted 4 years and 36 million, we countered with 3 years and 24 million… he signed 4 years 48 million, but he’s not loyal to us… for taking the money offered to him?
Santana said all along he wanted to be here for 3 years he said that, and we never made an offer until the last minute, and he wanted 7 years, we countered with 4 years. He got 6 years and an option year for more money than he was asking for to stay here… and had we been proactive in trying to resign any of those three players in the past you and I would not need to have this conversation…
But for me to be the fool on this side… What part of the Donkey are you, or is it a horse?
Quit drinking the Kool-Aid… if it doesn’t kill you, it will rob you of your ability to think for yourself!!!
When a company takes a chance on you and grooms you to the person you are today and pays you good money to do what you do then you should be loyal. A player for every 5 days gets offered 5 years for 100 million I believe that was offered and he took it would have showed me differently. However he didn’t. Think what you want but they cared only for money nothing more.
Oh and as far as that take me out of the game because my tummy hurts fool Silva should have took the twins offer. What other team would let him leave the game for a tummy ache lol
DLT:
Finally! Someone with common sense!
What did he need MORE money for! When is it enough money? He’s rich beyond his wildest dreams already. Greed just beat out loyalty ONE-ZIP.
Took a chance on you? Why? Because the Twins traded Jared Camp? The Twins traded for him in 1999 and had him playing in the bigs in 2000. In 2002 they sent him down to the minors to work on his change. When he came back, he was Cy-tana. The Twins then got performance well above what they were paying.
From the way you tell it, they pulled Santana out of a gutter somewhere and nursed him to health over 5 years. In reality, they didn’t treat him any different than they treat all their employees: hire them young and let them go when they’re old.
Again, find myself agreeing with BC. The Twins’ habit of coming up just a little bit short is just a little too frequently.
Im glad Torri and Johan got the big money.If our bosses gave us big raises of course we would take them.I only have one problem with this.Don’t say it’s not about the money,when we all know it’s about the money.Very simple(imo).
Where was the loyalty on the Twins part to these players… they wanted YEARS, more than dollars, and the Twins refused, and other teams gladly took them up.
The Twins had years to give these guys better contracts, and lock them up and failed to do so.
they had Years they could have added onto the deals that might have made the player stay…
So the fact that the Angels offered him more years and more money… he’s a fool for taking that offer instead of less money and less years to stay here? The Angels are a former World series champ with a track record of making the playoffs, and making efforts to sign players to make the team better.
Wanting 7 years, and by the way 5 years 100 million would have signed him before last season was the comment you read… the Twins offered him 4 years 20million a year on top of his 13.7 million this year or what have you plus a 4 million dollar signing bonus… He wanted the security of 7 years because just like the club… he’s one pitch from never getting another contract again. The club could suffer if he’s under contract, but he could suffer if he’s only under a short term contract, and then this is the last contract he gets… Plus the Mets before the choke last year were the odds on favorite for the WS out of the National League, and now it’s between them and the Diamond Backs… The Twins were going to FIGHT for 3rd place this year even with Hunter Silva, and Santana…
So your loyalty talk is BS man…
If you worked for a job and they trained you, but they kept asking you to do more with less and less, and you felt you were worth 25 dollars an hour but they were only offering you 14, but the business down the street that does the same thing was offering you 28 dollars an hour to do that job, and you stayed at your job where you had no shot at advancement, not shot at getting paid what you felt, or the security of knowing you could retire with them… that after a couple years they could lay you off… you are 10 times the fool that Santana or Hunter ever could be.
Just remember Loyalty works both ways, and if you had the kind of leverage in your field that they do in baseball, and you didn’t take advantage of it… take that 10, and make it 10,000 times bigger of a fool because what you are calling integrity is going to cost your family in the future. And I know in their case they already have millions, but why are they not entitled to live the lifestyle that they want to live, or to make as much money as they possibly can? If we had a salary cap that would be one thing, but we don’t…
so my name calling friend… we will argee to disagree.
And as for Silva coming out with a stomach ache… that was childish, and terrible on his part, and one of the reasons why I’m glad the Twins didn’t resign him, however the Twins were the FOOLISH team that allowed him to come out of the game!
I am not denying the money at all. But the chance to win surely had a hell of a lot to do with it as well, as is stated in their confrences…
Hunter specifically mentioned the team that was willing to bring in new players…
THE TWO PLAYERS WERE PISSED OFF ABOUT LOSING ALL THEIR FRIENDS, and couldn’t come out and say… Carl Pohlad and his kids are cheapmmmdalkhjewa I can’t stand the tight wad gajkewakj and we played every game to win IN PURE SPITE of our ownership, and management because they never did anything to help us win as a team!
They were classier than that, but I sure as hell wouldn’t be… I’d burn that bridge and call them out on it… I would have done it while I was playing for the team, and I would have done it on my way out the door because as any soldier will tell you at the end of the day they are fighting for their fellow soldiers, and let the political leaders make their decisions for better or worse… and in the end the players moved on, and have better contracts, and better opportunities to win a championship, and just like the KG trade, I’m seeing so many people bashing KG… and he was loyal, and he wanted to stay here, but mismanagement in both cases MLB, and NBA lead to these situations, and you guys are laying blame the players.
insane!
Mat - Anyone smart enough to use “epistemological” correctly is smart enough NOT to insist that “either you’re throwing Johan under the bus or you aren’t”. That’s the second time you’ve insisted on a simplistic black or white position in a situation where gray is more realistic. I truly don’t know Johan’s inner thinking, but it’s legitimate to conclude that there’s a “good chance” that money was his prime consideration. Why is it necessary to come to a full fledged judgment about the guy? Because you’re not comfortable with uncertainty?
A lawyer’s job is to insert finality into situations where finality is an artificial construct. Sorry, I don’t play that way. If my life depended on the answer, I’d say money was his main goal. But I’d have a decent chance of losing my life.
Further, my tentative, very gray judgment of Santana doesn’t change my basic attitude toward the concept of other factors overriding money in my value system. As stated, I don’t ask that anyone share my value system. That’s why I refer to it at “my” value system.
BC:
I enjoy your posts and get a lot of worthwhile info and everything. But please spare us the comparisons with the everyday average Joe-wage earner.
Pro athletes are coddled and brown nosed and have no idea how the other half lives. They feel sorry for themselves when they have to squeek by on only a million per year. As far as working their butts off, I’m afraid an awful lot of blue collars would tell them they don’t know what hard work is!
BC - Gee, you’re on one of your rolls tonight!
I know you’re not addressing me, but as you said to DLT, we’ll just have to agree to disagree. Not about Johan’s motivations, since you agree that neither of us know. But about the place of money in a person’s life, and how big a place money should occupy. I realize I value it less than most people. I feel as strongly about that as you do about the feelings you express.
BTW, as an aside, I would hope you as a writer can help retire that omnipresent term “kool-aid”. Don’t you think that’s become way too trite?
Kenny - That’s another good point. I stay at my job because I enjoy it, my co-workers, etc. But I work very hard over 8 hours a day, five days a week. How incredible it would be to be able to play baseball for a living!!! I’d happily play baseball for half of what I make today, just because of the enjoyment! And then when someone that incredibly lucky thinks $93M is not nearly enough I’m not supposed to question that at all because he needs to feed his family???
I think the twins should explore a CF option still, Crisp is still being shopped why not try to get him and a very good prospect? Blackburn Monroe and Morlas for Crisp and Lowrie? They get 2 very good prospects and a bench guy in Monroe. We get a stopgap for gomez to develop in the minors 1 more year and lowrie is a stud SS who will be in the lineup in 2009.
2009 line-up
gomez
mauer
Cuddy
Morneau
Young
Kubel
Lowrie
Lamb
Harris
Dennis, I’ve been using it since 1978 or so when I was 5 years old in a doctor’s office waiting for my mom to come out with my grandma, and I was reading about Jim Jones, and the questions in my head have never stopped. That messed me up, and I went 5 years without drinking Kool-Aid ever again…
And while it’s become trite… I look at it in a way like going to a classic rock concert. If you see a new band do the windmill move of Townsand, or some of the Kiss type schtick it’s lame as hell, but if you see the original do it, it’s kind of nostaligic, and it’s the real deal, and I’ve been hating on Kool-aid for a long time, lol.
Go to my page and go through the pictures… you’ll see one that will make you shake your head, and then laugh out loud about the Kool-Aid Man.
But yeah, I was elected Chairman of my ward tonight, and you know how much I love politics so I feel like I did more steroids than Mark McGwire today!
It looks like we have a new Craig…and his name is Dennis.
Dennis is a friend of mine on here.
he and I disagree on a few things, but he’s a good guy… no need to nail him to a cross, and throw darts dude!
Well the way I see it, Hunter and Santana got paid well and I will agree extensions should have took place earlier and we got good old TR to thank for that mess that happen. I don’t see why they should have extended beyond 5 years not knowing how well they would have performed. Age does catch up with all of us and our production isn’t the same. The contracts offered I felt were fair I mean we aren’t like NY and Boston that can afford ridiculous size contracts. Yes agree to disagree and sorry for the fools part just got tired of all the bashing. I believe bill smith did the best he could under the circumstances he was left with after TR stepped down. As far as the KG situation I got a feeling we would be here all night lol. For both teams im gonna sit back and see how it plays out before I judge them. Dont get me wrong both front offices have made plenty of mistakes that made me upset but in the end im a loyal fan who enjoys attending and watching the games on the tube and wont jump ship even when they suck.
One blogger put it this way:
Bill Smith had a no win “sith away tsion” (sic). A few of us also thought he had a lisp.
And for the record I hate that gawd awful crap called koolaid:)
cj - Uh oh…a Craig comparison…that’s the kiss of death! Two big differences, though: 1. I have a sense of humor, often toward myself; 2. I defend my position, but I respect everyone else’s opinion too. I do like to see logic and/or facts behind the opinions though.
Just out of curiosity, what exactly led to the Craig comparison? I’m not supporting any of his baseball theories, I respect other people’s opinions (though I certainly reserve the right to express contrary views), and I NEVER engage in ad hominem attacks.
cj,
If you see any similarity between Dennis and Craig, you must be off your medication.
BC - Thanks! I consider you a friend too, even though I think you’re wrong about Bill Smith. 
I’m not sure why I get to be Craig when your opinions are expressed more strongly than mine. I’d rather be the new BC Beneke!
OK, if your kool-aid references go way back to Jim Jones I won’t think of them as trite from you.
Sane - Actually, I’d rather be the new “Sane” than anything else! (Sorry BC.)
DTL
All is good. It’s ok to disagree, but as Dennis explained brilliantly a few nights ago… it’s a much bigger picture than you or I can fathom… and when it comes to elite athletes getting paid ungodly amounts of money (again a salary cap would help that)… it comes down to the fact they are elite athletes, and we are common joe’s.
We are so different from them, and them from us that our realities are incomprehendable…
Did you see the Randball bit where he showed a mock pay stub for his salary in New York? He gets 420K every two weeks, and he pays in almost 300K in taxes every two weeks.
He gets paid 3 of my houses every two weeks, and pays in two houses in taxes every two weeks.
That’s the kind of obscene thing we are dealing with.
Thanks Dennis, though I’d rather be me than sane, being sane isn’t a bad thing at all.
You should have read my college psychology report I did on Jim Jones, and some of the Cult leaders. I wish I still had it, I would try to publish it now.
someone called me Liondragon the other night, and I got a Craig refrence as well. (I’d rather listen to 10 craig posts than one from that …. BC Beneke)
BC - “Being sane isn’t a bad thing at all”. LOL!!! Like you said a couple of days ago in response to something I wrote, “I almost spit Root Beer through my nose onto the keyboard I was laughing so hard.”
Yikes! If you’re worth 10 Craigs and I’m only worth one I guess I should feel too badly.
Oops. I meant I SHOULDN’T feel too badly…
BC
I agree a salary cap would help and I wish they would do that otherwise these insane contracts will destroy baseball eventually and no I don’t know that for sure but it wouldn’t surprise me. If they have to strike so be it as I get so sick of high payroll teams winning every year. Funny I always thought the rich get the big taxs breaks.
Dennis and BC,
I only wish I were sane as frequently as you are.
Dennis, Sane… why are we having this deep conversation over two blogs? I mean I’m pouring my baseball mind in deep over there, and I’m trying to be rational, and dare I say, SANE here. lol.
Sane and BC - OK, that time the root beer did come out. Now my nose is all wet and my keyboard is a mess…
dude, you should not be drinking soda this time of night.
It’s bad enough before 8pm, but this late the metabolism is down… you’ll end up looking like Boof!
Gentlemen,
Good night.
It’s bedtime for Bonzo!
I should call it a night as well
BC - Actually, I’m 5′10″ and 150 pounds so I can get away with stuff like that!
But I definitely don’t sleep enough. So I’m off too.
Johan is a first class athlete, KG could have learned alot fro J.S . Good luck Johan, your the real deal..
JayTEE says:
February 5th, 2008 at 8:54 am
“…But, who on this board would have turned down a contract like the Mets offered…”
*Raises hand*
“…But, who on this board would have turned down a contract like the Mets offered…”
Considering the change in income from my current salary to the Mets’ offer comparred to the change for Santana…would you blame me?
Santana really wanted to stay, huh Castillo?? This is a quote of his from a New York paper,
“I remember the day when I got traded, Johan talked to me in the locker room,” Castillo said. “We talked for 20 minutes. I explained everything. And he told me he wanted to play for the Mets. Within a week, I told Minaya, he’s a good pitcher and he likes the Mets. We know he makes a lot of money, but he’s the best lefthanded pitcher for me in the big leagues.”
Really Johan, you need to get your story straight!
Meant to include the link in the last post, http://www.nypost.com/seven/02062008/sports/mets/glove_connection_405719.htm
Interesting title, “Castillo trade helped land Johan”.
Dennis,
If you don’t know what Santana is thinking, then just leave it at that. Don’t impute him with a, “Well, I don’t know what he’s thinking, but after careful consideration I’m pretty sure I’m right. And this is what it is. And this is how I feel about it.” I suppose that’s OK once, but if you repeatedly restate your belief in Johan’s screwed up moral system, the occasional disclaimer of, “but I don’t really know what he’s thinking” is simply disingenuous. If someone on this board posted, “Well, I’ve never really met Dennis, so can’t say for sure, but I’ve reading what he’s writing and thinking about it and I’m pretty sure that he beats children. All the signs are there: he talks about this. He talks about that. Etc.” And then posted 20 times in different ways the same thing, I think you’d feel that their disclaimer of truth was really being fair.
As I said, you believe that money isn’t everything. I think this is a very uncontroversial statement: probably everybody in the country would agree with it… or at least 99%. But there’s many reasons for Johan to be dissatisfied with the Twins that don’t have to do with money and when you are dealing with the one payday that is going to ensure the financial fortunes of you, your family, and your ancestors, you’d be quite foolish not to take the one that is almost double.
But everyone has turned down jobs or gone down different careers where they made less money. But there’s a limit to it. I’m sure if the job you had been offered paid an extra $2MM/yr instead of $30,000/yr or whatever, you would think for about 5 seconds, turn to your boss, and say, “Well, it’s been fun.”
Lastly, noone has ever answered my question as to why, exactly, Johan should feel this huge loyalty to the Twins that he should transfer to them $50MM+ of value. Because don’t get it wrong: it’s a zero-sum game. Any value not gotten by Johan is gotten by the Twins. So what have the Twins done that is so extraordinary for Johan that he should give them $50MM+ in income?
One last thing: it’s also a 2-way street. What loyalty have the Twins shown Johan? They traded him, just like they traded or let walk, every major player of their of the last 10 years except Brad Radke. Say Johan did sign a 4-year, $80MM deal. Do you really think the Twins, if they saw they were out of contention, wouldn’t deal him? It’s almost a stupid question since we know the answer since they did.
Look to the example of Bronson Arroyo. He came up through the Red Sox system. He loved the city. He loved the fans. He had a band that was named after the city. He said it was the first place he felt like was home. So two years ago his contract is up and he negotiates a new deal with the Red Sox. He’s feeling very grateful, very loyal, he doesn’t need much money… not as much as he could get. So he agrees to an under-market deal. About two weeks later, the Red Sox decide that they have too many starters and trade Arroyo and his below-market deal to the Reds. Somehow I don’t think the crew headed by Carl Pohlad would be any less mercenary.
So think on that: the more $$ Johan turns down in order to stay with the Twins, the less likely it becomes that he actually would. And THAT type of situation is NOT present in any of our workplaces.
Mat - Darn, how did you know I beat children??? Up until now that’s been my little secret.
As I said to BC, we’ll have to agree to disagree. I won’t say more, other than that I basically stated my position once, and the other postings were rejoinders to attacks.
I know we’re playing sort of a one-upmanship game (those darn lawyers!), and you’re not bad at it, but I think this topic is played out.
Mat - OK, you sucked me into another post on this topic. You’re over-reading my position. All I’m saying is that loyalty and other issues are more important than money in any value system that I personally would consider as balanced. And when a person can make $93M over four years money loses almost ALL of its meaning. Again, that’s in what I personally consider to be a balanced value system. I desire no say in your value system, or in his. But since he’s a very public figure I’m free to observe and comment.
OK, on to other topics.
I dont know if this is true or not but we actually got rid of Santana to finance a movie for Carl’s son called No, No, Nanette. Can anyone tell me if this is in fact true?
Considering that you just pulled that out of your rear at this moment with no source or point of reference…no. No it is not.
So what have the Twins done that is so extraordinary for Johan that he should give them $50MM+ in income?
I’ve heard rumors that the Twins drafted him from some minor league club somewhere and kept him on their Major League roster the entire season following that. And at some point (and my sources could be off on this), they turned him into a 2x Cy Young winner and one of the most dominant pitchers in baseball history.
But you know, it’s not like that’s a big deal or anything.
I’m sure if the job you had been offered paid an extra $2MM/yr instead of $30,000/yr or whatever, you would think for about 5 seconds, turn to your boss, and say, “Well, it’s been fun.”
If it was a $2MM/yr more than my current salary I wouldn’t think twice. However (as people such as yourself that continually use this flawed analogy forget), Johan’s making $13MM/yr already.
To put that in numbers you can understand:
For me: $2MM/yr raise = 3,700% raise.
For Johan: $2MM/yr raise = 15%
Remind me again how Johan’s financial situation is comparable to mine?
What loyalty have the Twins shown Johan? They traded him…
Johan wanted to be traded from Minnesota because Minnesota traded him? Wha…?
Minnesota traded Johan because he wanted an obscene contract.
Remember how everybody lauded the Yankees (the free-spenders of the East) for originally refusing to deal with A-Rod when he wanted a 10yr $300MM contract?
Remember how everybody laughed at the Yankees when they caved and signed him?
So now the Twins do the opposite, and they’re the villians? Johan’s somehow the hero in all of this?
What’s the difference? A-Rod is one of the best hitters in baseball, Johan’s one of the best pitchers.
Oh wait, I know the difference! Johan was on the team you rooted for.
Since you like to play the assumption game, Mat, allow me to do the same. You’d have been one of the first people denouncing the Yankees front office when they refused to sign A-Rod. And then when they finally caved you would have declared it a victory and celebrated in the streets.
Anyone think that Nolan Ryan was on the juice. You know they had steroids even in the 60’s
what do you think of “Boofs” new contract
5 years 60 million or he walks
jimmy bee, are you making crap up again?
UH YEAH, HA HA HA HA - JK - BC
BC ON A SERIOUS NOTE WITH PITCHERS SALARIES WAY OUT OF HAND WHAT WOULD A BOOF CONTRACT LOOK LIE THESE DAYS. TAKE into consideration what Silva got
What contract, jimmy bee?
I was being hypothetical regarding a contract
Hey jimmy…why is that even when your use name is all lower case you still find the NEED TO OCCCASIONALLY WRITE LIKE THIS FOR A FEW SENTENCES?
Just wondering. And seriously, stop making crap up. It’s bad enough people ranting on about the current contracts without hvaing to throw in a bunch of garbage to stir the pot.
T I work in uppercase all day so I have a tendency to sometimes botch things up by typing in uppercase but I make a constant effort to type in lowercase. I know it is quite annoying and it is not purposely done to annoy or to yell. As far as baseball goes am sitting and wondering do you think Nolan Ryan was on steroids
That’s not baseball.
That’s chemistry.
Johan’s quote from LEN3’s article:
“I know I’m going to a team that will give me a chance to win.”
This is bull. The team you had a chance to win a World Series with is the Twins! Even with Santana, the Mets are still arguably the 3-4th best team in the division (Phillies, Braves, Marlins…). When the Mets choke again this year (they will, and you know it), you’ll be stuck for the next 7 years with your old bastard friends (Castillo, Alou, O. Hernandez, Delgado, Schoenweis, etc.).
I respect Santana and loved him as a Twin, but don’t try to bull s*** me and tell me it’s about winning. You’ll have Hall of Fame creds but no World Series wins!
B.Dubz,
Does that mean that you pick the 2008 Twins to have a better record or go further in the playoffs than the 2008 Mets?
Good Luck with that.
T,
What I was saying was that Dennis, and others, have said (basically) that Johan was a bad guy because he should’ve taken less money to play for the Twins… that there are all these quality-of-life and loyalty issues that are more important than money. My point is, even if Santana and all the other athletes accepted that argument, it’s still a loser because there’s no guarantee that the franchises will hold up their end of the deal.
Santana didn’t [i]ask[/i] to be traded. He said (if the reports are true) that if you’re going to trade me, trade me before the season starts. The Twins, seeking to maximize their own internal value, decided to trade Santana for the last year of his contract. And Santana would have no guarantee (since everyone here is so anti-no trade clauses nowadays) that wouldn’t have happened even if he had signed an extension with the Twins.
I mean, it’s really kind of silly. People are saying that Nathan is going to be a good company man and sign a reasonable deal. And it’s OK for the Twins because if they’re not making progress next year or so, they can always trade him. Huh huh wahh??? You’re expecting the players to take a, “home town discount” even though it’s not their home town and even though there’s no guarantee that you’re going to make it stay their current town. It’s just incomprehensible.
mat,
Good point.
The consensus here is the Twins should sign Nathan, deny him NTC, then trade him at the best possible time for the Twins.
If he refuses, WHERE IS HIS LOYALTY?
Oh, and where is the team’s loyalty (for all MLB teams) to the many players that they cut to end their careers despite all the time, blood, sweat and tears that those players have sacrificed?
B DUBZ:
Absotively posolutely right! Maybe these pampered, rich-beyond-your-wildest-dream players can blow smoke up a media guy, but I ain’t buyin’ it. It’s fun to read it in the sports pages, but Average-Joe-fan doesn’t need his intelligence insulted. Johan is from South America and, hopefully, doesn’t realize this and just feels our appreciation for his career here. Personally, I have already forgotten him, Tori, and David Ortiz, and I am ready to move on.
SID:
I sympathize with the players who didn’t make the final cuts, but blood, sweat and tears?? If you ask me, it’s a pretty gravy job and fun,easy way to make a living compared to an awful lot of shiot jobs here in the North country!
More on the subject of one-way loyalty.
I keep reading how grateful Johan should be to the Twins because one of their employees (Bobby Cuellar) taught him a change-up and transformed him from a bum to a multiple Cy Young winner.
To how many other pitchers did Cuellar teach that change-up?
Why did only one of them become a Santana? What happened to the other guys? Maybe the coaching wasn’t the difference.
The two biggest factors in Johan’s development were Johan himself and whoever gave him his ability. (the Almighty or genetics - pick one or both)
THAT is to whom Johan owes his gratitude and loyalty.
CeZar,
I’d like that job myself.
My point is that the Twins don’t worry about loyalty when they make cuts, nor does your employer when he makes cutbacks or layoffs. Loyalty should go both ways. (or neither way)
Do you guys think the twins will make any other significant moves or is this what we’ll work with for 2008? . . . Who will win the battle for center? . . .
TWINSFAN:
I will be really surprised if they don’t bring in some veteran free agents to play the first month or so before handing over the reigns to the kids. That seems to be their pattern over the last few years. They’d have to be really cheap, though! And maybe………..washed up????????
Twins fans were lucky to have a pitcher with the abilities of Johan for so many years. I agree with Sane. What happened with all the other Twins coaches’ pupils. Venezuelan fans weren’t as lucky I we still wish him all the luck in the world with the Mets. We just like to see good baseball players regarless of the team they play. Fans like players, the owners like their teams, and their only loyalty is to the blue numbers they return.
VENEZUELAN FAN:
That’s the problem, right there. The only loyalty is to the almighty dollar. Well, it’s NOT a business. It’s the hobby of filthy rich men. I don’t make much, if any, money on my hobby, do you? It wouldn’t kill them to fork over a like amount for their hobby, just as the rest of us do. I repeat, it’s NOT A BUSINESS, it’s their hobby!!! It’s just on a much grander scale.
The idea behind “sign and trade” (at least how I see it), is that you sign a player to a contract with the NTC.
If the team looks to be faltering and in a situation where they won’t be able to compete under the current contract, then they look to deal the player midseason to a contender
I view that as loyalty to a player. It’s not dealing him because they can’t afford him, but because they feel that they can’t compete even with that player. So they send him midseason to a competitive team (since only playoff hopefuls are BUYERS at trade time).
I’m not saying the Twins should sign Nathan with the intent to trade him (that’s a dangerous gamble to take). Just that it’s an option that is ALWAYS out there.
And the only reason the Twins were looking to trade Johan was because it was slowly becoming clear nothing short of a historic contract would be enough to keep him in a Twins uni.
The contract situation beget the trade. If Johan would have taken 5/100 (if reports are true it was teh final offer) he’d have gotten his NTC and still been a Twin.
T - And if Johan had reasons other than money for leaving (and only he knows), good for him, I’m glad it worked out. But if it was for the difference between $100M for four years and $150M for seven years, again I have to ask: how much money is enough? And once you reach $100M+ what can more money actually provide you?
CeZar,
If it is not a business, why do the players have a union?
Why does US Congress prevent the owners from agreeing to control salaries (collusion) under the guise of “restraint of trade”?
Who says that hobbies aren’t businesses?
It may not be the owners livelihood in many cases, but it is the livelihood of players, administrators, umpires, cocessionaires, club employees, MLB employees, media, etc.
T,
I see. A player choosing not to stay with the team is a player betraying the team. A team choosing not to stay the team is a favor to the player. I’m sure players just love living out of hotels, in strange hotels, with new teammmates, living away from their families, for half of a season. Yah. I’m sure they love that.
Why be apologetic? Just admit it. Teams look out for teams. Players look out for players. It’s oh-kay.
Mat - As I said before, I’d play baseball for any MLB team for half of what I make NOW. And if they gave me TWICE what I make now I would think I had died and gone to heaven. And twice what I make now in a year would be about 50 pitches for Santana!!! I think most anyone here would give up their job in a heartbeat to play major league baseball. Many here would pay THE TEAM to let them play.
I’m not sure why you can’t see it, but these players live in a dream world that the rest of us can only fantasize about.
Yah. I’m sure they love that.
You make it sound as though the lifestyle of a baseball player is some major surprise to these guys. As if they hit the big leagues and it’s like “Holy crap, we have to TRAVEL?!”
What’s the first thing you do before accepting a job offer? You investigate the company, you visit the company, you talk with employees of the company (if you can) and you find out what the company is like.
And considering that league minimum is six figures, I’m pretty sure they can live with it.
And considering Johan had built a home here in Minnesota (at least that was my understanding), why wasn’t he willing to take the Twins offer so he could stay closer to home?
Or Hunter? He has a home in Texas, why did he take the Angels offer instead of the Rangers?
Oh right, because it was more.
I just have to say that it is quite disheveling to see Santana in anything other than a Twins uniform. More so than Hunter or anyone else I have seen that has left in my lifetime as a Twins fan.
Agreed, it’s a bit jarring. I would’ve preferred it to be offset by Ellsbury or Hughes in a Twins uni.
T,
A house is not necessarily a home.
A home can be moved to a different house in a different town/state/country.
Hunter grw up in Arkansas, Santana in Venezuela. When they buy a new house near their new jobs, that becomes their home.
If you want a better chance at a championship with teams that are committed to spend whatever is necessary (AND for a higher salary), do you pick the Angels or the Rangers? the Mets or the Twins?
Sane,
Great Point.
Anyone who plays in Texas is just doing it for the money. The Rangers will be the only team in history to go 200 years without a championship… My great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandchildren will be weaping at my grave when the Rangers finally win a WS.
T,
These guys are people with families. And sure, the life of someone in baseball is to be on the road a lot. But at least when you were at home, you would be with your wife, your kids, in your own house. If you get traded at mid-season, players don’t go out and buy a new house and pull their family for what might just be 3 months. They leave their family set up as they are and then live out of a hotel or long-term rental for a few months. But even being used to travel, that’s not something that they’d say, “Hey, sign me up for!”
At least if you get traded or sign as a free agent in the off-season, you have time to reorganize your life. And if it’s a long-term contract you can go ahead and move your family b/c you know you’re going to stay there.
Tom,
Seeing Carew in an Angels uniform at first was difficult, but seeing Killebrew in a Royals jersey was the saddest thing ever.
This from the paper across the river:
“Ex-Twins second baseman Luis Castillo, on Johan Santana, in the New York Daily News: “When I got traded (last July), I remember Johan, in the locker room, we talked for 20 minutes. He told me he wanted to play for the Mets. So when I got over there I told (general manager Omar) Minaya that Johan liked the Mets.”
Santana wanted to stay and play in MN if they would just offer him an obscene contract? I don’t think so.
While you have an interesting point, you forget that this is what they signed on for. And unlike a job you or I may have that involves significant traveling, they have the kind of money to take the family on a road trip with them regardless of where they go.
Not to mention that an MLB player living some place other than where he plays is not exactly rare.
Like Sane said, a house is not a home. If I was making Santana’s money I’d be taking the family with me on road trips more often than not.
And since baseball is primarily played over the summer months, there would be less concern regarding pulling kids out of school.
Twins interested in Blanton?….
Kay,
What do you expect?
When you went to college and a friend told you that they were going to go to Willmar PolyTechnic, do you say, “Wow. That place is crap. I’m glad I’m not going there.”
I tell friends white lies all the time: “I wish I was doing what you’re doing” and in reality… I don’t.
Mat - you think that Santana was lying to Castillo? You really live in dreamworld if you think that Santana would, could, or should have, remained a Twin.
T
If you include the playoffs and spring training, more than half of the school year overlaps with baseball.
As for taking the family on road trips, that doesn’t sound too fun to me. Maybe a few times a year, but living out of a hotel with kids isn’t my idea of the good life, even if I had enough money to travel first class.
Kay,
I don’t think that Santana telling Castillo, when Castillo just got traded to the Mets, that Santana liked the Mets, is any sort of meaningful proof that he wouldn’t have resigned with Minnesota.
He didn’t tell Castillo that he LIKED the Mets, he said he wanted to PLAY for the Mets. And the only possible way he would have possibly resigned with the Twins is if they had offered him a ridiculous contract, which would not have been a smart move by the Twins and I think that most of us recognize that.
You mean a ridiculous contract like the one that he signed with the Mets, the team that you’re so sure that he liked?
Let’s map out your thinking.
1. I don’t think Johan Santana wanted to stay in Minnesota.
2. Johan Santana told Luis Castillo last summer that he wanted to play for the Mets.
3. This spring, Johan Santana signed a huge contract with the Mets, after the Twins traded him to the Mets.
4. Johan Santana would have only stayed in Minnesota of the Twins had given him a huge contract.
5. Johan Santana liked the Mets; he didn’t like the Twins.
I tried to make that as comprehensible as I could but it was really hard. And still doesn’t make a whole lot of sense.
Also, really, who cares what Santana said about the Mets? The TWINS traded Santana to a team that they chose, not the other way around.
Hello! Earth to Mat! Anybody home? Let’s try to map out your thinking:
1. We don’t know if Santana liked or wanted to play for the Mets despite evidence to the contrary because… hmm… not sure how to end that line of reasoning.
2. The Twins should have offered Santana a contract like the one he signed with the Mets and (a) he would have signed it, and (b) this would have been a smart move by the Twins FO.
3. Everything would hence be right in Twins’ land.
Nice. “Earth to…” I really hope you were quoting from Zoolander because otherwise you’re 8 years old.
1. We don’t know if Santana liked or wanted to play for the Mets because it wasn’t his decision to play for the Mets: the TWINS traded HIM.
2. We do know that Santana tried to get a new contract done with the Twins after last season and they said they weren’t interested.
3. Everything won’t be right in Twins land for a while.
As for taking the family on road trips, that doesn’t sound too fun to me.
I realized I should’ve specified that by including: “If they so choose.”
The TWINS traded Santana to a team that they chose, not the other way around.
Except Santana had a full NTC. He could have rejected the trade without even going to the negotiation table w/ NYM.
So even if the Twins aimed Santana at one specific team as a trade offer, Santana got the final say.
And if you’re looking for proof that Santana wouldn’t have resigned with the Twins…here’s a some you overlooked.
Santana didn’t sign with the Twins.
The whole reason trade talks started was because the Twins knew they’d have had a hard time making the kind of offer Johan would want. The final number from my understanding was 5/100.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/tom_verducci/02/07/verducci.santana/
What is everyone’s take on Santana after that article?
T,
Santana told the Twins they could trade him to anyone they wanted. He didn’t place restrictions: he just approved it once it was done.
T says: And if you’re looking for proof that Santana wouldn’t have resigned with the Twins…here’s a some you overlooked.
Santana didn’t sign with the Twins.
———————-
That also is proof that the Twins wouldn’t do what it would take to sign Santana. So I don’t see how it really proves anything.
Thanks for the article post GT. Looks like greed to me but im sure someone will spin it differently. How the hell can anyone think the twins should have paid what Santana wanted is beyond me. It would have handicapped the team much like what KG contract did for the wolves.
If you want to see a case of an NTC being used for a player proactively, google the stories about Ken Griffey, Jr., and his departure from Seattle. It’s completely different.
Your argument would have more weight if Santana actually turned down a deal that the Twins wanted to make. By all indications, he didn’t.
Whether or not it made sense for the Twins to pay Santana what the Mets did is one question. But the argument that Santana is a bad person because he didn’t reduce his contract demands down to what the Twins wanted to pay is something completely different.
He didn’t place restrictions: he just approved it once it was done.
There was one major restriction in place: His contract demands.
That’s why you never heard of Tampa Bay or Kansas City being in the running.
5/100 is a very fair and reasonable offer for the Twins to make Santana and obviously that wasnt enough for him. To me it would have been suicide to give him more especially after last season.
He did place some restrictions. According to LEN (or was it Joe C.) there were two other clubs interested in Santana, but he didn’t want to paly for them.
Oh!
Please, don’t let Johan leave.
The guys will never be the same without him.
Even if Paul, George and Ringo come back, the band will never play as well as they used to.
Why did Yoko f-ck everything up?
Wait a minute!
What were we talking about?
BC are you back to baseball wheeeew
Mat is convinced that Santana would have signed with the Twins if the Twins had made him the Mets’ offer. (A) No amount of logic will convince Mat otherwise guys and (B) he likewise cannot be convinced that it would not have been wise to make such an offer.
The Twins made Santana a very generous offer. He would have been the highest paid pitcher in MLB. He turned it down. He’s gone Mat. Get over it and move on.
BTW, what the h*** is Zoolander?
Kay it’s a movie
Kay,
(A) You’re correct on. I believe if the Twins had made Santana the same offer that the Mets did, he would’ve taken it.
(B) I’ve never said and said it’s a completely different question. It might be best for the Twins not to have signed Santana; that’s fine. They looked at their roster, they looked at their salaries, they looked at their commitments, and said, “No”. That’s cool. But just as it’s fine for the Twins to do the best for their own self-interest, it’s also fine for Johan to do the best for his. Otherwise you’re just dealing with double standards.
And your little, “Earth to” wasn’t a Zoolander riff. Oh dear.
There’s some mild talk that the Twins are interested in Blanton. I think any price would be too much for a guy who performed WELL above his actual ability last season.
No need to overpay a veteran SP in this crappy market or trade for 1 year wonder. Let the kids chuck the ball this year.
Thoughts?
This made me chuckle today - not because I’m a hater just that it would have put a different spin on things if it had come out a few weeks ago…
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080207&content_id=2367230&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb
Oh dear yourself Mat. Your cutesy little dig that I either quoted something from some truly erudite movie that you saw or “otherwise am 8 years old” is rather, childish.
Kay - You nailed that one!
wrathchild
Without commenting either way on Blanton, young pitchers don’t have the stamina of veterans. An overly young starting staff who can’t throw a lot of innings puts a lot of pressure on the bullpen.
BC is going crazy on another blog. Multiple personality disorder I think Mat http://nc.startribune.com/blogs/wolves/?p=60
Help!!!!
The Twins starters are NOT YOUNG.
They are just inexperienced and their stamina will be fine.
I’m not so sure, but we will see.
Not me.
Kay, Zoolander isn’t erudite but it is funny. But to use the phrase, “Earth to X” in a non-ironic way…. oh dear.
gracioustwin :
My take is Santana has been reading his press clippings and got involved heavily in self-promotion. That’s all well and good, for him, but at the end of the day he’ll still be just another overpaid jock. If the GM’s are dumb enough to buy that crap, he would be stupid not to hold out for all he can get.
Brand new on baseball at Rudely Stamped:
“A Cock and Bull Story”
Michael Blaine
http://www.rudelystamped.blogspot.com
Alrighty then….let’s push to go get Joe Blanton….maybe send Humber and Mulvey to the A’s!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
geno,
Us pushing accomplishes what?
Maybe you should change the name of this blog from “All Twins All the Time” to “All Twins Every Couple of Weeks.”
Thanks for publishing Johan’s entire message, LaVelle. I’m just sorry we didn’t have an opportunity to say goodbye to Johan like we had with Torii–that last game was a killer for me.
In past years it has always been a long slow off-season for me between coaching HS football (ending around Thanksgiving)
and coaching HS baseball.
The off-season ended today with our first full-length (5-hour) HS baseball practice.
I want to thank all the STRIB bloggers who have tolerated me, entertained me, and educated me.
It has been one of the best off-seasons I can recall.
Thank you all.
Now, back to our disagreements.
where is the news on this?? http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7789152/Twins-pick-up-free-agent-hurler-Hernandez-
NEW SUBJECT….Livan Hernandez to the Twins!!!
How long until somebody compares Livan hernandez to Sidney Ponson.
The fair comparison would be Carlos Silva. He is a .500 pitcher who can eat innings.
Nice signing.
Good News…Bring it Livan!
Go Twins! Salary comparison…
Livan 6/23 million (Johan)
El Duque’s brother, right? Gamer compared him to Pontoon and Silva, Killer compared his salary to Johan’s. I compared his homers allowed to Johan’s. They both led the league. Pretty good company to be in, but the AL has the DH, so it won’t get any easier. He also led in hits allowed, so playing in the HomerDome ought to be interesting. We always pick up bargain players.
Nice signing. I knew the Twins would do something like this- they usually do. They sign a guy like Ponson, Ortiz, Silva, Hernandez, etc. You know- some pitcher that’s low risk/high reward. I like this guy a lot more than Josh Fogg, who was mentioned to have been in contract talks with the Twins. I would have had nightmares about that signing. He would have had to prove he belonged where as Livan will have to prove he doesn’t belong. I thing Hernandez will be the next Silva- maybe a little better- and Liriano could be almost like not losing Santana. He probably was the best FA pitcher left on the open market. Now if we can only sign someone with our extra $16 million dollars sitting around…
I believe Santana is sincere about his comments. His job is just like everyone else’s. His move is like a promotion with more money. I don’t think anyone would turn down a promotion and a raise no matter how much they love the position that they are currently in. I enjoyed the time Santana was here and am sad that he left. He gave his best here and has excelled enough that he is able to move on to bigger things. We still have a good group of guys and can still make a good run for the WS as long as we have a good pitching core.
Good luck Santana.
I hope Santana has a horrible season, and the owners will wake up and quit paying obscene salaries to the “stars”.
I don’t think anyone would turn down a promotion and a raise no matter how much they love the position that they are currently in.
That is one of those comments that gets used a lot in situations such as this, but as I’ve used as an example before:
Santana’s raise from $13M to $20+M is going from far more than enough to way more than enough.
A raise in my salary would take me from enough to squeak by to enough to get by.
LEN3 trashed this signing on kfan…plus he hasnt penned a thing about the twins in forever…you have to go to MLB, ESPN or Joe C. for any Twins info………..how nice
Thanks LEN3. And thank you Johan K Santana, you where one of a kind, and owe us nothing. I’m pleased that I got to watch you as many times as I did, best of luck.
twin-X
